I know. Season 9 was SO painful to watch.

I get that Sam felt that Dean was honoring his choice or his free will, but, if there's any chance at all, even a bad chance, why would you NOT save a loved one from death? One of the saddest lines in an earlier season was when one of the brothers said, "We have no friends. All our friends are dead." There's not much left for Sam to live for. So he wanted to die. But Dean was still alive. So it's sad that Dean wasn't enough for Sam to want to live.

I also think part of the desperation Dean had in the first episode of Season 9 as Sam lay dying in the hospital was knowing that Sam had to do all those trials instead of Dean. Dean wanted to do them, but failed to kill the hellhound which Sam did, so Sam took on that suffering in his place, in the end not even finishing it because it would have killed him. So ending up dying ANYWAY would make it all pointless. If you died shutting the gates of hell, you achieved something (even as Sam went to the cage to stop the Apocalypse). Or if you gave up shutting the gates of hell but lived on with your family, THAT is something good too. But to not achieve anything and die anyway -- what good would come from that? It would seem so purposeless.

So love and guilt play into this. Another part is perseverance (or stubbornness). You don't give up. You keep fighting. (I'm reminded here of some of Cyrano's final words in Cyrano de Bergerac: "I fight on!" Sam was surrendering here and Dean didn't want to let him. When Dean wanted to give in to Michael (Sam accused him of committing suicide), Sam and Bobby and Castiel wouldn't let him. And Dean isn't letting Sam give in here when Sam wants to give up. (I know the situations are different because if Dean became Michael's vessel, the Apocalypse would happen and half the planet would die whereas here the only person who would suffer is Dean, but then again, thinking of that, he doesn't have anyone left. And the reason he doesn't have Ben and Lisa is Sam's fault. Soulless Sam turned him into a vampire; planning on having Samuel kill him, Dean goes to see them one last time -- foolish but human -- and ends up pushing Ben away in desperation not to hurt him but angering and alienating Lisa which caused her to break it off with him. So when Sam said in Season 5 to let him make his choice and save the world, Dean had someone to turn to. Now Sam wants to die and it doesn't seem to matter to him that he's leaving Dean alone. I can see that someone would be in such pain that they only think about ending their own pain, not about how much pain they would cause others. But when your loved one steps in to rescue you from yourself, eventually, once you're in a healthier place, you can appreciate what they did.

I have to respectfully disagree with both of you. But I'm glad you asked the question Yer because it relates to my biggest gripe with Season 9. You had to ask your question because the writers decided to NOT let Sam explain his feelings to Dean. They had him take the "we're not brothers" position so that the rest of the season would be Dean's downward spiral. In effect, they wanted to make Sam look like a jerk so we would feel sorry for Dean. If I had been writing Season 9, I would have given Sam the opportunity to explain just why he was so hurt and angry. The one thing we should all be entitled to as humans is control of our lives and our bodies. That's why we have living wills and Do Not Resuscitate orders. Imagine that you had a DNR and your loved ones violated it because they could not bear to lose you. And the result is your being revived to a state of physical or mental impairment that make your life hell. You might understand your loved one's motivation, but I think you would be furious and hurt that they took your choice away from you and consigned you to an intolerable existence. Now imagine that you're Sam. From the time you were 6 months old you have repeatedly had control of your body taken from you. First with the demon blood and all of the horrible consequences that ensued. Next when Meg possessed him in Season 2 and he brutally killed a hunter, and attempted to kill Jo and Dean. Then when Lucifer possessed him. Yes, Sam chose that, but it was with the hope that he could immediately take back control and jump into the pit. Instead, he had to experience Lucifer use his body to snap Bobby's neck, explode Cas and nearly beat Dean to death. Imagine someone forcing you to kill the three people you love most in the world. Could there be anything more horrible? Next, through no choice of his own Sam is rescued from hell without his soul. So in the most important sense the real Sam did not have control of his own body. And when Sam's soul is returned to him, he learns that he's killed innocent people in the line of duty, allowed Dean to be turned into a vampire, tried to kill Bobby, and who knows what else. So much of Sam's life has been a series of events where he loses agency over his body and horrendous consequences ensue. The important thing is, Dean knows this because he's been with Sammy every step of the way. He flat out tells Ezekiel/Gadreel that Sam would rather die than be possessed by anything. Then when Ezekiel allows him to see into Sam's thoughts he hears Sam tell Death that he'll go with him if he can promise that nobody else will ever be hurt because of him. It's not that he has a death wish, it's that he knows that every time a Winchester beats death, tragedy results. And Sam is proven right when Gadreel uses his body to kill Kevin and various other people and angels. Some people have argued that Metatron would have killed Kevin anyway, but that's not the point- it's that Sam's body did the killing. Even aside from Kevin's death, the possession by Gadreel resulted in the loss of chunks of Sam's life and in his fear that there was something seriously wrong with him. And Sam was right about Dean's motivation- you made that point yourself Aslansown, when you said he would be leaving Dean all alone. So while understandable in some ways, Dean really did save Dean for himself, not for Sam. The only opportunity the writers gave Sam to explain himself in a sympathetic way was in the last episode when he told Dean that he's not the one waking up at night seeing his hands killing Kevin. I think the writers did Dean's character a disservice as well as Sam's character. Because Dean was well aware of everything I just referred to, and he should have known exactly how Sam felt. This is the Dean who carries around truckloads of guilt for every perceived failure in his life, so he would know the crippling load of guilt and horror Sam is feeling about what he did when posessed by Gadreel. But rather than apologize for what he'd done and express his understanding of Sam's feelings of betrayal and anger, he simply says that he'd do it again, and then he spent the rest of the season resenting Sam's reaction to the Gadreel possession. To wrap up my incredibly long comment, the writers really botched it by not giving Sam the opportunity to explain himself. You might still feel that on balance, what Dean did was OK, (although I don't) but you would certainly feel that Sam's reaction was largely justified.

Thank you for the great reply, samanddean10. You brought up some great points. (And I don't think your answer was any longer than mine! I was feeling embarrassed that I wrote so much! lol)

Also, let me say first that I meant to say in my second paragraph that Sam felt Dean was NOT honoring his choices.

You are so right that this was a way that the writers could use to propel Dean down the dark path that he ends up on. He truly felt alone, that his love for his brother was not reciprocated, and that his brother didn't care (and he's been on the receiving end of a lot of pain from Sam's choices -- especially when he was Soulless Sam but also other times as when he realized that he didn't help him get out of purgatory) so all he has left is the job: kill Abaddon and then Metatron. You can see where his mind is when he tells Sam in "Alex Annie Alexis Anne" after rescuing him, "I know you wouldn't have done the same for me" (which I don't think is true but is how Dean is feeling based on what Sam said to him). As you said, it's not really fair that the brothers didn't get a chance to discuss this since not talking about it propelled them on a super dark path.

I wonder if Dean will understand more what Sam has felt like -- he's never been demon-possessed though he was controlled by the siren and the Confederate soldier's "rage penny" -- now that the Mark of Cain has been controlling him and he's experiencing horrible consequences.

I totally get that Sam is furious and hurt. I'm not sure that he's been left to an intolerable existence though. I actually do wish that Dean would "apologize for what he'd done and express his understanding of Sam's feelings of betrayal and anger," but can you truly apologize if you WOULD do it again? Can you be sorry you had to do something and understand that the person you love hates your choice but still think you should do it? In an earlier season he said something about how complicated and dark their life now was by saying that good things were now bad and bad things were even worse. He knew saving Sam was a bad choice but not saving Sam was a worse one. It would have probably helped if he could have told Sam how intolerable his choices were there in that hospital with the angels attacking.

Your metaphor of the DNR order is a good one -- yes, that WOULD make me furious if my loved ones ignored that to leave me in a bed covered in sores in a coma on breathing machines for years because they couldn't let me go. But this wasn't what Dean thought would happen. Gadreel (Ezekiel) told him he could heal him, and Cas said Ezekiel was a good guy (and he proved his belief in angels being creatures of compassion in his interaction with the other angel in the parking garage when he first met Dean). Dean isn't planning on just keeping Sam around impaired. His plan was for him to be healed. (Of course, as you said, nothing good usually happens when you try to cheat death on Supernatural.)

Hi Aslansown. I wasn't clear enough in my comment about the analogy to the DNR. Sam's "wounds" as a result of having his life spared were psychic rather than physical. He had to carry the weight of knowing that his life was saved- against his wishes- at the cost of Kevin's life at Sam's hands. And I know that Dean intended none of that and was hoping for the best case scenario. I really wish there had been some substantive conversation between the brothers in which Sam had the opportunity to explain himself and just why he was so angry and upset, and in which Dean expressed some understanding of Sam's feelings and at least allowed for the possibility that he (Dean) made the wrong choice. Even if they had that conversation now, I would be satisfied, because it bothers me that after the terrible damage the Gadreel fiasco did to the brothers' relationship for the last half of season 9, it's been swept under the carpet by the writers as though it never happened. As for why I care so much about the relationship between 2 fictional characters, I have no answer!

I understood that they were psychic wounds! I guess I just feel that psychic wounds CAN heal whereas a person in a permanent vegetative state (the imaginary person with the DNR order) pretty much never comes out of it. The physical situation would offer no hope, but the psychic pain could potentially be healed -- especially if the person's ghost forgives you. I guess I just continue to feel bad for Dean because I think he sees Sam's pain at what he did and adds that to his own guilt because he was the one who put Sam in that position when he has always tried to protect Sam.

I do wish they had dealt with it and talked about it.

I guess I should have originally clarified that I don't really feel as in the OP that Sam should "just be grateful". Sam is justified in feeling anger. At the same time, I wish he'd try to put himself in Dean's situation. That scene in the hospital was AWFUL.

I'm like you -- why am I so invested in fictional characters?

Hi Guys - reading the above discussion I too was wondering why that statement from Sam was so brutal (& out of character ). "No I wouldn't." with no further explanation ??!! If the writers did it to send Dean down this dark road like we think ?! Don't the writers relize the fans arn't stupid and we all would have noticed this mistake.

I wonder if this was done to set up S10 - I think Hunter mentions this. Maybe all this unresolved issues between the boys and there is many of them, could be part of resolving the MOC. Maybe the ep Not my Brothers Keeper - could be about the boys resolving everything and Dean relizing Sam is a man now and he ( Dean ) can let go of everything & the boys can move on to being HAPPY & LAUGHING TOGETHER AGAIN -- I so miss this xxoo

Sam said "no Dean, same circumstances I wouldn't". A lot of fans took that to mean that Sam would never try to save Dean's life. And of course what Sam meant and what Dean has repeatedly expressed over the seasons is that he would never want to have his life saved at the expense of another. Sam made that comment right after Dean said that if he had it to do over again he would. In other words Kevin's life was worth the sacrifice as long as Sam was alive. Sam couldn't accept that. When Castiel was trying to remove the residual grace from him Sam again expressed that his life wasn't worth anymore than anyone else's. Sam would never want Dean to have to go through what he is going through "waking up in the middle of the night feeling his hands killing Kevin". That was the trust that was broken. And since Dean was already carrying the MOC I don't think anything that Sam said or did would have made any difference in Dean's eventual downfall.

I think that ‘Sam just couldn’t be grateful to Dean’ because it’s becoming more and more obvious that what Dean does, he doesn’t do for Sam’s benefit. He certainly doesn’t have Sam’s best interests at heart. He does it because it gets Dean what he wants; Sam beside him, hunting. In order to truly do something ‘for’ someone you have to think about what is best for them and what they actually want. You have to be prepared to sacrifice what you want, and Dean doesn’t do that.

Additionally, what Dean did to Sam in season 9 really reinforced the idea that Sam is seen by pretty much everyone (many fans included) as nothing more than a vessel for someone else's purpose. He was a vessel to Lucifer, to Meg, to Gadreel and now, to Dean. Sam’s body is the vessel for Sammy, Dean’s adoring baby brother, nothing more. Sam himself, his thoughts, fears, hopes, motivations, feelings, beliefs are irrelevant in the light of Dean getting what he wants. The knowledge that Dean would do what he did again solidifies the idea that Sam has absolutely no control in what happens with his body (nor should he expect to) because he now knows it’s up for violation any time. Maybe Sam should be ‘grateful’ that Dean has given him forewarning this time so Dean won’t need to go about it in an underhand way. Sam will know to just accept it, regardless of whether or not he wants it because one thing is sure, it’s going to happen anyway.

I think Sam also ‘just couldn’t be grateful for Dean’ because this incident also shows the extreme double standards from Dean. Aslansown mentioned it above when he/she said “it doesn't seem to matter to him that he's leaving Dean alone”. They are hunters. Common sense dictates that one of them is going to die and leave the other alone, yet neither of them have stopped hunting. (When Sam tries to get out of hunting, and therefore not die and leave Dean alone, then he is berated for that.) However, Dean has no problem leaving Sam alone. He did it in season 2 when he left Sam alive with the knowledge that Dean was being tortured in hell. (When Sam mentioned this to Dean, he said he didn't care.) He planned to do it in season 8 when he wanted to die doing the trials (so that then, and only then, could Sam go and live a life outside of hunting). We saw it at the end of season 9 when Dean knocked Sam out so that he could face Metatron alone and in season 10 when he stopped him from helping him with Cain. Should Sam be ‘grateful’ that Dean leaves him alone to cope with things that Dean himself can’t cope with?

It is easy to ask why someone can’t just be grateful for something, but what that does is nullify the person whom the action was done to. ‘Sure, your father was murdered, but now you’ll be able to get your inheritance sooner so why can’t you be grateful for what that person did?’ ‘Sure, you were assaulted but now you know not to walk down that street so why can’t you be grateful for what was done to you?’ etc.

Jen wrote:

Hi Guys - reading the above discussion I too was wondering why that statement from Sam was so brutal (& out of character ). "No I wouldn't." with no further explanation ??!! If the writers did it to send Dean down this dark road like we think ?! Don't the writers relize the fans arn't stupid and we all would have noticed this mistake.

I wonder if this was done to set up S10 - I think Hunter mentions this. Maybe all this unresolved issues between the boys and there is many of them, could be part of resolving the MOC. Maybe the ep Not my Brothers Keeper - could be about the boys resolving everything and Dean relizing Sam is a man now and he ( Dean ) can let go of everything & the boys can move on to being HAPPY & LAUGHING TOGETHER AGAIN -- I so miss this xxoo

The problem is that Dean actually realized 'Sam is a man now' at the end of season 5, when he gave Sam permission to jump in the Cage. However, he then spent the next 5 years rowing back on that realization and considering, and treating, Sam more and more like a naughty, untrustworthy child and less like a man who is supposed to be his brother, hunting partner and equal.

I also don't think the statement from Sam was brutal, or out of character. Fans really ought to look at the full quotation, and not just 3 words that are taken out of context. Sam didn't say he wouldn't save Dean. (He has saved Dean, numerous times.) He said that in the same circumstances he wouldn't do what Dean did. What would be out of character is for Sam to knowingly go against Dean's wishes and trick him into something he knows Dean would never, ever want. He would not make Dean live his worst nightmare, and then say he'd do it again. Sam knows there are worse things than dying, he has been through them. One of those things is possession. Sam loves Dean too much to subject him to that. He would rather suffer the misery of being alone than to deny Dean what he wants. I'm not at all surprised with Sam's statement because this is how Sam has always shown his love for Dean, by respecting Deans wishes.

Unfortunately, many of the fans don't seem to have realized that at the time of Sam's 'brutal' comment, Dean had already taken on the MOC. He took on the mark in 9.11, and Sam's comment came 2 episodes later. So logically, I've don't know who could possibly think that the writers did it (the comment) to send Dean down this dark road.

What was most disturbing thing in that whole conversation in the episode "The Purge" was that Sam portrayed Dean as the guy who does things so that he can be called Hero and that Dean is Selfish. Really is that what Sam thinks of Dean? Dean wants to be hero by doing whatever that he does? And then there was that "no, same situation, i wouldn't do it". Harsh, really harsh. I remember here the lines Sam said in season 8 finale "Do you have any idea how it feels to watch your own brother....."(my addition-"...say all this?". Can you imagine the pain that Dean must have felt?? That is some serious shit Sam said there. I was so overwhelmed by hearing Sam say those two words i really didn't give damn about Sam's thought process. I didn't care, i still don't that everything Sam said came from the place of hurt. How can you say all this to your brother who considers you his life, who can't see anything else when you are hurt, who loves you so much, looking after you is who he is, who has always put you first?
And Sam saying that he wouldn't save Dean given the same situation, well Sam let me tell you it's old news! You've already achieved that by not saving Dean from Purgatory. Move on to something opposite and actually save your brother for once.

When Dean made the decision of saving Sam by letting an angel in him was not bad decision. He was saving his brother. He was saving a life. What happened with Gadreel/Sam killing Kevin was tragic but it was not because Dean saved Sam with Gadreel. It was not the consequence of Dean's decision.

When you've your brother on deathbed in front of you what is the first thought you would have? Of saving him by any means possible or honoring the choice of your brother? Dean did what he has always done and will always do. And it was not the first choice of Dean to save Sam by letting an angel posses him. Ezekiel/Gadreel was supposed to heal Sam from outside only. Unfortunately Ezekiel/Gadreel was weak and Sam didn't have time. Dean was desperate. And Sam chose not to complete the trials and stay alive with Dean, right? So that's the choice Dean was honoring. So Sam should really be grateful to Dean for once.

So because Dean has made Sam his whole life something by the way Sam never asked him to do then Dean has a right to do whatever he likes is that it. And when he does Sam is then supposed to be grateful that his noble brother did it to him .
Apart from the fact I find the idea that Sam was supposed toi be grateful for the violation disturbing it also shows a complete lack of thought for Sam as a individual and a person

Despite what people think in this fandom Dean does not have some inailenable right to do whatever he likes when it comes to Sam or Sam's body.