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  1. Alice
  2. Sam Winchester
  3. Friday, 26 December 2014
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It's about time we start getting some serious discussions going.  I know I have a horrible frustration is Sam's storyline in season ten, or lack of storyline, but it's entirely possible I'm a voice in the wilderness.  He is after all looking after his brother.  Or is he?  I'll admit giving Dean long, worried glances isn't exactly my definition of "looking after" but on the plus side, he has learned out to make a mean grilled cheese sandwich (yes, that's sarcasm).  But maybe things are happening to Sam that I'm not seeing?  

Here's some talking points:

-  What are the strengths of Sam's storyline?

-  Weaknesses?

-  What outstanding plot threads involving Sam would you like to see addressed?

-  How would you have written Sam's arc in season ten?

Or, introduce your own talking points.  It's that kind of thread.  Even though we are in the discussion forums, you still have to follow our site rules!   Here's the link as a reminder:

The WFB rules page

Okay, tell us how you really feel!  It'll help this Winter Hellatus go by much faster.  
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Guest
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I think this is a first time in a while nothing supernatural is happening to sam, so they dont have anything for him on that aspect. I feel if they're just having Sam be himself for the season they have to do better in his charaterzation.  Let him talk more so we can get how his mid frame is. and let him be involve on trying to save his brother if thats their approach.  But honestly im not sure what they have plan this season cause their pacing is slow and they have the storylines at a stand still for useless things.  In I dont think SPN staff can balance the writeing for both brothers anymore at the same time. It's either one or the other.  But as of now niether have real movement to me just guess stars.
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Debbie
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I am not such what the story line for Sam, is going at this point it's more on Dean and it is moving slow. Maybe the writers don't know either maybe the writers can't make there minds on how to go from this point on. As I see it the focus is on Dean 
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Sam is plot driven without it he does not have anything . They cannot write for Sam Winchester because they do not know who he is , no real time was ever spent on Sam the person just Sam the mytharc and whatever action or sl pushed either Dean or the story to a certain point. Last season was the horrible love child of both those scenarios where what was done to Sam and how he felt was the last thing that mattered. This season is a Sam who has no real plot so there is no real strengths to what they are doing with him. His save of Dean had no real brother emotion , they made it clinical rather than using the ''deep bond'' they are suppose to have because the idea is that Sam was the one apparently having to prove something coming out of season 9???. And Dean asks Castiel to kill him if it all goes pear shaped. There is not a single Sam centric character on the show so there is no other outlet to have Sam talk to anybody . The problem is nothing was created for Sam moving forward from the last season apart from making up to Dean for not being ok over being possessed and saying a few unhappy words. And that just boggles my mind anyway. If you give one the mytharc the other needs the pov/emotional journey but because there has been no true Sam narrative on the show for a long time there is no Sam pov. So Dean has endd up with both mytharc and pov. .
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Shante
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i dont know, i dont know what Sam's pov it pains me to say this ... Sam who?, im sorry, Sam hasnt had anything to do since he saved Dean and i am very worried that he wont be doing anything in the 2nd half if he does nothing in the 2nd half, im scared to see that nothing has changed and if that is what happens in January :(. 
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njspnfan
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Hi Alice - the upgraded site looks great; still exploring some of the new features. Any storyline Sam had at the beginning of the season has fizzled out.  I was looking forward to them changing things up this season, with something wrong with Dean and Sam being the one actively looking to save him from the MoC, or getting some of Sam's POV. Even in the first three episodes, where Sam was focused on finding and ultimately "de-demonizing" Dean, most of what he did was only referred to and happened off screen, or touched on briefly in flashbacks.  Since then, his focus has been on looking after his brother.  I know most fans don't like it when Sam and Dean aren't getting along for long periods of time but, quite honestly, I'd even take more contrived "you killed my friend Amy" conflict over what we're getting this season. In Season 8, with the introduction of the MoL and Sam and Dean's "legacy", this appeared to be the avenue with which to give Sam, the more academic/studious of the two of them, something to do. But, the only one we've seen investigating the MoC using the MoL resources this season has been Dean.  So, obviously this didn't and probably won't be going anywhere. In Season 10, my initial thoughts were, ok, this will be Sam's "human arc", where nothing supernatural is directly affecting him or his behavior.  But, the show doesn't seem to be invested in this idea either. To their credit, they have at least tried to keep Sam more involved in the storyline but he really doesn't have much to do.  In looking back at S10, besides the first three episodes, would the story have been much different if Sam weren't in the other episodes? The answer is a resounding no.  I sound like a broken record about my next point but the show has always done its best work when they keep both brothers actively engaged in the story, and that just doesn't happen anymore.  So, quite honestly, with the mytharc being Dean and the MoC, continuing to show the brother's story from Dean's POV,  the secondary stories of Castiel trying to fix the trail of carnage he has left behind since touching down in S4, and Crowley and his mommy issues, there really isn't much of a story to tell for Sam.  The show is moving along at a snails pace this season, and I can't see anything changing dramatically when the show comes back in January.  And this is a fundamental and institutional problem with the show now, not something Carver can magically fix with a well written episode at the end of the season.
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I think it's important for Sam's storyline to stay true to who Sam is and is becoming.  So I hope they have something in mind there.  I understand that fandom wants Sam/Dean to get along and I'm glad the writers are trying to find better ways to keep some tension as part of the story.   I agree I thought we'd see more of Sam as a scholar/hunter (maybe finding "cold cases" within the files in the bunker) and making use of Cas as a resource in locating/procuring books/info.  I thought that a stand-alone friendship/association w/Cas could really vocalize Sam's concept of hunting as a "win-able" fight because I think Sam/Cas share a different, more global understanding of what, exactly, the mission IS.  Thinkin the reason it's easier to connect w/Dean is that Dean would give his life for another identifiable life (Sam).  Whereas Sam has been asked to give his life for an intangible and thankless "humanity".  Really he is the only one who (for some reason) has hope.  Dean and Cas, as soldiers, have pretty much given up over time.  Sam doesn't keep going (as Dean/Cas do) because he just doesn't know what else to do-he keeps going because he has hope.  I'd like an arc that would show us that hope and that would ultimately reward it if even just a little.  Maybe even give Sam a way to bring hope/a winable goal back into Dean's life (Also hoping that's a parallel direction to where they're going with Claire"TheLastofUs"Novak & Cas).   I was glad to see them having Sam pulling the emotional weight of de-demonizing Dean but I also think it was important to the writers (especially after the horrors of the back half of S09) to show that Sam, is ultimately, despite what we saw, just as unwilling to kill (give up on) Dean as Dean was to see Sam die.  Though I think they should have shown more of the forgiveness than they did-ESPECIALLY in that last scene at the Impala: Sam should NOT have blown off Dean's "apology" equivalent.  It would have given more believable weight to re-establishing the bro relationship if Sam had re-connected with Dean prior to the death scene.   Soul-less Sam was willing to see Dean turned into a vamp for researchs' sake.  What I see this season is Sam watching Dean for signs of how well/if this experiment (de-demonising) has worked & what the MoC really means on a practical level.  I'm hoping we're just not being shown the hours & hours of research he's been doing and that at some point he'll pull out an unexpected back-up way (maybe a few words in enochian ("might work"via Cas)) to subdue an "out-of-control" Dean.   I did think he'd have had to be REALLY distracted to leave Dean solo back in the cabin.  I do see the show as being mostly about Dean but that's because he pretty much runs right over Sam's concerns and he's more "act first".  I'd like to see glimpses that Sam is learning ways to account for Dean's tendency to just go by maybe -he's done the research on the monster and has this "just in case" trivial info that results in saving Dean from harm. etc. Had to add this since it seems to make a HUGE difference in POV: I am new to SPN.  Found it via binge less than 6mos ago. I find that makes a significant difference in how I see the show.  Most significantly I see Cas as entering the scene a week & a half into the show not three years in so he's more integral for me than he is for many of the "established" fans I've experienced tho I respect/appreciate that the show is about the brothers and I respect/appreciate that they've really made poor use of the Cas potential.  With so much "immediate" experience to digest I am far less disillusioned than many other fans by any episode or season at this point-I love episodes from all the seasons to various extents.   I'm curious as to what achetype/who everyone else thinks Sam is becoming/is supposed to be becoming on the show
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st50
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I agree with njspnfan.  This is a huge fundamental problem with the entire show now.  Everyone agrees it's better when the brothers are the center of the story, but at the moment, my only response to Sam and his story line this season is: Sam Who?? Season 8 (which I hated) ended with an incredible finale written by Carver. Season 9, which I felt was a very weak and largely unenjoyable season, had another pretty damn incredible finale written by Carver. I had hopes for season 10, but it is slow and not really doing anything but frustrating me as a viewer, leading me decide to wait until after Mays finale to decide if it is worth my time to binge through to that one great episode. A season can not stand on one episode.  Certainly not 3 times in a row.  If the show works best when it's about the brothers, we need to have both brothers actively involved.  Not written with either one standing around watching, making dinner, or removed from the scenes.   
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Sam a role on this show?  A storyline?  An Arc?  All I hear are crickets.  I've gotten to the point where i feel the brotherhood is detrimental to Sam as a charector.  I once watched a movie (ok i watched it a dozen times) called Whats my number.  The main charector was giving a toast at her sisters wedding.  She said that with the groom, she saw a better, happier sister....that her siwster was more herself with her husband.   Obviously Sam and Dean arn't married...but Sam is so busy trying to be what Dean wants at any given moment that Sam isn't being himself.  ANd that is what Sam needs...someone that he can feel he can be himself with. Somene he can talk to....laugh with, joke with.   And Sam can't with Dean.  Sure Dean is his brother but its so entangled with the father/son crap....and we all know we are different around our parents then with our siblings....and when one person is both....  The writers need to give Sam a sibling like relationship outside of Dean.  Only then will Sam come out of his shell...and we will get another layer to Sam.  And I think this is the way to bring Sam back into the story...give him an arc/a storyline...by giving him his own unique relationship.   Plain and simple Sam needs someone to bounce offoff of/interact with other then Dean.            
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eilf
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Ok this is not meant to be in any way negative to Dean or Jensen. I just can't make the comment I want to make about the (lack of) storyline relating to Sam without pointing out the issues in reviews. We were told to let the writers get on with it because they have a Plan. Don't bug the writers on Twitter 'they' said, don't complain to them in any form 'they' said, it is not mature to demand the writers write the story you want to see 'they' said. The same 'they' went ahead and did just that and we got 2 seasons of screwing around with Destiel and a 'Mytharc4Dean' (the emphasis of which changing weekly) without any reciprical story for Sam - because hey, amazingly it was the people who wanted a well written, coherent, canon-compliant, story who took the 'don't bother the writers' point to heart. So there's that.  But now the showrunners say that a) they never have a plan and b) they DO pay attention to what is said on social media. So with that in mind: Really from a character point of view it would help if reviewers would go to bat for Sam/Jared occasionally. Let the writers know that there are actually fans out here that want to see Sam integral to the show as a person in his own right and not just an appendage of Dean's (or a character who is Not!Sam). As couple of examples, remember how Sam didn't really interact with other characters last season apart from Dean? But Sam possessed DID. 'Ezekiel' interacted with Metatron a reasonable amount. Jared was excellent as Ezekiel/Gadreel. Now go read the article about Metatron on Fangasm (it is linked on the fromt page of WFB at the moment), go on, I'll wait .... see?  - I don't really know a lot about them (the Fangasm ladies) but I feel from various things I have read that they are reasonably well accepted by both fandom and TPTB, and, well, kinda obsessed with Jensen (I don't blame them, the man is very attractive, but, you know, so is the Grand Canyon and you can't make a 10 season show out of just looking at it), and it shows in their articles TBH. Ah that's just one sample I hear you say? Ok then, the next external article listed on the main page of WFB, yes it is about Castiel's storyline, fair enough. Various mentions of Dean  .... not really the focus .... now look at all the other articles she wrote recently (they are all linked together) - there are 3 or 4 of them. In the entirity of the three articles she mentions Sam once - to call him an ex-blood junkie and hence aware of what constitutes a bad idea - this mind you in face of Dean STILL having the Mark of Cain on his arm (strike that, that article seems to have vanished, so NO mentions of Sam, plenty about how important Castiel is to Dean's life though). Even if you don't see these articles as 'excluding Sam because the writer has no interest in him (or wants Destiel)' (which is how they read to me) and just as being about the characters they claim to be about, it still says something about Sam's presence on the show. There has been very little if any mention of Sam or anything about his storyline in most reviews this season, and while it is clear why that is, since he really isn't being given anything to do for them to write about, it is interesting how not-excluded commentary on Dean is in older articles when Sam had a juicy storyline and Dean was supposedly 'sidelined'. Reviewers bemoan that Dean was a 'nursemaid' - Dean stopped being a nursemaid. Reviewers don't mention Sam at all ... Sam's input to the show declinese in favour of, well honestly pretty boring storylines (except for Dean's challenges as a demon or as a Mark of Cain victim). If reviewers ignore Sam, or say how happy they are with his (non-existent) storyline the writers are going to really wonder why they would bother writing for him. I am talking about general entertainent sites where someone could read an article about OUAT followed by Sleepy Hollow then Supernatural and then whatever Miley Cyrus is up to. I don't mean WFB, which is a boutique site for in depth conversation, where there is time to remember who Sam is while discussing the main storyline of the season. Oddly enough a huge amount of COMMENTS on mainstream sites are often about Sam (many of them not particularly kind either to Sam OR Jared (the latter of which never ceases to amaze me), but a good few of the type we have on here - the 'where the hell is Sam?' variety) but they are not going to have much effect on a writer who is planning his storyline around whatever the majority of reviewers chose to focus on in last week's episode - writers don't have that kind of time. Mainstream reviews are often an amalgamation of general opinion about the show along with the reviewers POV. It bothers me a lot that it really DOES appear (because they practriuaclly are SAYING so) that the writers are writing to whatever the loudest opinion is. Storytelling by committee. Reviewers will write what they want to write about the characters they like and I am not saying that they should be more 'fair' because it isn't about fair, or quality writing (either in mainstream reviews or on the show) it is just there is a potential niche out there I feel for noticing that the overall quality of the show has declined significantly while one brother is reduced to a side character. While the show tries to write juicy dark storylines for Dean and then justify him as being always good/right/ok because the fans SAY they don't want to see Dean doing anything bad - except they do - they want sexy bad-boy with no consequences to him (or him doing anything actually BAD - even the murder spree before the break as been reviewed predominantly as 'aw poor Dean I want to give him a hug') and we have this peculiar amoral morass that is barely coherent, never mind particularly enjoyable. And this is how I see it, your mileage will most likely vary. But I do think that there is a point to be made about a problem here. I just don't entirely see how it can be solved.  
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eilf
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Hmm on second thoughts I guess that I can't really assume what fans want from the show (though I stick behind what I thinkthe results are) since everyone wants something different, so, since I can't edit my post, I will add that I appreciate that not all fans (or even most fans) may want from Dean's storyline what I said. It was too sweeping a generalisation. The rest of it is also more of a discussion point on what seems to be part of the problem, with examples that seem to fit my conclusions. I appreciate I could be incorrect about it. Also, I commented on this before but it doesn't seem to have taken, sorry for the slightly demented spelling in places :D
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JuliaG
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Hi eilf, I agree with everything you said.  I think that we've all grown tired of discussing Sam's lack of story.  As you said, the reviewers don't seem to mind it, and the Dean fan base is bigger, so it seems like we're wasting energy even talking about it.  I guess I've given up.  Even Jensen doesn't seem to be all that supportive of something better for Sam.  Remember the constant complaining about the soulless Sam story in Season 6?  It's the best story Jared has ever had, with funny dialogue, character exploration and everything!  And Jared doesn't really help himself either by never complaining about anything, except maybe after the story is over, like Sam not looking after Dean.  So yeah, if feel like it's a lost cause.  I barely watch the episodes now.  They frustrate me too much.  
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sylvia37
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It's funny because I was just writing reply to Nightsky's article and I was saying how much it pains me to say that I prefer watching Sam interact with other people these days besides Dean. I have a lump in my throat just writing that because it used to be so much the opposite. I used to be impatient when they were apart and couldn't wait until they were together in a scene. But the writers have lost the ability to write Sam as an individual when he is with Dean. And when they do, it is only to highlight Dean's feelings or Dean's reactions, as in "The Purge".

Maybe that was not true in the case of Demon Dean, but as per usual in the last few years, the beginning of the seasons start out with so much potential, and then they just sort of degenerate, the exception being season 8, I guess, where we finally in the last few episodes, got some Sam POV. And what I don't get is how the writers and Jeremy Carver can see the kind of positive reaction that Jared gets when he gets good material to work with and still be unable to write for him. Remember how we all felt when Sam FINALLY expressed his feelings about himself during the trials and how Dean looked at him? It was like a party. Ugh, I'm depressing myself.

It's just that we KNOW they have the potential to do it, they just don't want to, I guess or find Dean more interesting and easier to write. I don't know. I just know that Sam's scenes with Castiel when they were trying to extract the grace last year or his scenes before the "cure" this year were more interesting than most of his scenes with Dean. The exceptions are few and far between.
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Hunter, I agree with you. Man but I would kill to see Sam and Jody interacting for whole episodes. Sam just seems to come alive when he is with her. I think the difference is she 'sees' him. There is a real friendship between them and Sam opens up in a way he doesn't with Dean. And I feel she truely cares about him in a way that i haven't had from Bobby (or most charectors) in years. (I always felt that Sam sensed Bobby saw him ONLY as an extension of Dean) and that hurt Sam since Jared totally sold Sams love for Bobby. But even then Sam never felt 'safe' enough to open up to Bobby and be himself.

Ultimatly thought, i think JOdy or even Cas' scenes with Sam are more interesting then Sam and Deans have been is because the writers rarely give the boys any depth to their scenes. It always feels like a writerly hit and run...and depth comes from the actors.
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eilf
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Bump (just to see what happens)
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eilf
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OH! I just realised Hunter is not a real person :D

Hi everyone 'Hunter' is not talking to themself - the persons name is under where it says 'hunter' (You maybe already worked that out ...)
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ThisOldBag
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I tried commenting earlier but it was deleted on me...technology!
What do I think of Sam's story in Season 10. Well, from what I've seen (and heard from interviews) it will be about how Sam will realize how far he is willing to go to save his brother. Um...been there. I gather from this that tptb think of Sam differently than I do. I mean, obviously he didn't do everything he could in season 1 when Dean was dying, and didn't spend 6 months tracking the Trickster and another 4 months looking for a way to save Dean or get revenge on Lillith, and he didn't spend a year while Dean was in Purgatory trying to find a reason to live and didn't spend whatever number of weeks trying to find Dean at the beginning of season 10, so therefore he needs to explore this. I gather tptb actually consider Sam to be the selfish brother and they want to "show" him realizing all the pain Dean has gone through, because Sam has never had to deal with that (sarcasm again...darn). I've resigned myself that I will never see the side of Sam I envision. The ever faithful, sacrificing brother that took that silly header into hell because he felt it was the only way to redeem himself (in the eyes of his brother). Just as I've resigned myself to never seeing Dean realize that he sees his own brother as a job and burden instead of a brother and partner. Oh well. So the Show will have Sam understanding why Dean made such poor choices and Sam will forgive and forget and never address them again...oh wait...he never addressed them to begin with (sarcasm...stop it!). All I can hope for is that I am entertained and that Sam gets to actually "say" something to someone that gives us some insight into his internal character. I still have hope for that.
But, what I would really want to see is Sam as the adult, strong, intelligent hero. I want him to figure it out, to be the voice of reason for Dean and his struggle. I don't want him to (once again) see how wonderful Dean is OR to discover how much Dean has sacrificed for him. I want him to realize his brother is a human being who, like Sam, does the best he can with the information at hand. Instead of forgiving, don't blame. Take his brother as he is and lead by example. Is that too much to ask?
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JuiaG
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I love your comment and couldn't agree more, ThisOldBag. Even Jensen thinks Sam is selfish! :( I see both bros the way you do.
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Just as I've resigned myself to never seeing Dean realize that he sees his own brother as a job and burden instead of a brother and partner.


This might be a bit off-topic but could you elaborate, ThisOldBag?
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amyh
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I agree. I would love to see Dean figure out that Sam is more then a job and burdon. I'd like to see a true brotherhood but i don't think that will ever happen. Especially if both Jensen and Dean has such a low opinion of Sam and they see others as better brothers. Dean is always looking for that better brother.
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I think we need a lot more back story on what Sam did to find Dean after he disappeared at the end of Season 9. "Black" just didn't give me enough of that back story that we need and I didn't think the scene where Sam tortures the demon was even done well. Sam didn't look for Dean for an entire year when Dean was in purgatory and I've never bought the whole I stopped hunting thing, didn't look for my brother, hit a dog and met a girl story. Sam needs to be to Dean what Dean has always been to Sam and that is relentless at having Dean's back. The writers have portayed Sam in Season 10 as little more than background noise and that noise needs to be turned up regarding some introspection into Sam's journey and angst about losing his brother. In season 9 Sam explicity told Dean that he would not have saved Dean if he were in the same situation (where Dean invited and angel into Sam to save his life). In season 10 Sam seems to have had a change of heart as he did look for his brother but he must have done more than what we have seen. The season 9 finale showed that Sam didn't want to be without Dean and didn't want Dean to die despite the fact Sam spent an entire Season (9) mad at Dean for saving him. How Sam went from the just let me die because I would let you die attitude to trying to find and save his brother deserves a little more screen time. I think that would make a wonderful addition to season 10 and would make Sam a lot more interesting and relevant to the arc.
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Attie
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SPNForever, to have someones back means to support them conditionally, support their decisions and take their side etc. With the exception of the end of season 5 when he okayed Sam's plan to jump into the Cage, when has Dean supported Sam or his decisions?
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Did I say something that offended you? The tone of your post was a little hard to read. I'm not here to get into a tit for tat with you or anyone.

I can't help but point out that your description to have someones back means to support them "conditionally" - is that what you meant to say? Regardless I don't have the interest or time to cite the ways via actions and words that Dean has always been there for Sam as Dean's job as he described it is to look out for Sam. It's nice to see Sam looking out for Dean.
Guest wrote:

SPNForever, to have someones back means to support them conditionally, support their decisions and take their side etc. With the exception of the end of season 5 when he okayed Sam's plan to jump into the Cage, when has Dean supported Sam or his decisions?
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Attie
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SPNForever1968 wrote:

Did I say something that offended you? The tone of your post was a little hard to read. I'm not here to get into a tit for tat with you or anyone.

I can't help but point out that your description to have someones back means to support them "conditionally" - is that what you meant to say? Regardless I don't have the interest or time to cite the ways via actions and words that Dean has always been there for Sam as Dean's job as he described it is to look out for Sam. It's nice to see Sam looking out for Dean.
Guest wrote:

SPNForever, to have someones back means to support them conditionally, support their decisions and take their side etc. With the exception of the end of season 5 when he okayed Sam's plan to jump into the Cage, when has Dean supported Sam or his decisions?


No, you didn't say anything to offend me and I'm not interested in a 'tit for tat', but I don't agree with what you said. I meant to say unconditionally, that to have someones back means that you support them and their decisions, no matter what those actions or decisions are. We rarely see that from Dean. Most of the time we see him disagreeing with or not supporting Sam's actions because they are in direct conflict with what Dean wants. That is where most of the conflict in the show comes from.

Looking out for someone is very different to supporting someone. Sam does look out for Dean as much as Dean looks out for Sam, he always has. He just doesn't say it as much. Regardless of what Sam actually wants for himself, he still ends up hunting with Dean, supporting him and watching his back.
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eilf
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Ok well THAT didn't work ... :D

I can't see how to reply within another post like other people seem to be managing to do just fine ...

Wow. Ok, I get that you're angry. Sam has DEFINITELY been sidelined this season. And no, it's not a good thing. Ideally, both would get rich storylines and ample characterization. I agree that we need to see Sam cultivate some relationships outside of his brother. All good things. But, the conspiracy you lay out here seems a bit much. Do you really believe all of this? I mean, even if the writers ARE listening, don't both sides make plenty of noise? I mean, Dean HAS been sidelined for four seasons and Sam has always been more or less the main character. Upset as I'm sure you feel so far Sam has been sidelined for only half of one season. Maybe they're just working some things out as far as balancing the narrative Now that said, I really would like it balanced. Sam needs some more POV, or focus on an emotional arc. That's what they should be doing. And they're not yet and we're all feeling the frustration. But blaming the writers and the fans... idk, just seems a bit harsh. I get you don't like Dean, but for a majority of the fans BOTH brothers matter to the story. And we don't want to see EITHER ONE becoming sidelined. Giving Dean a solid arc should not have necessarily meant not giving Sam one and I'm not happy this seems to be where they're going, but I'm also optimistic that it's more of a transition, rest period and not meant to be a continuing thing (maybe, I'm too optimistic?). Like I said, I really think an emotional arc for Sam would be great! We need to build Sam up before the writers tear him back down, lol. I'm kind of looking to see if they will head in that direction in the future.
Sorry, just my two cents.


I don't dislike Dean. I HATE the fact that the show is saying it is ok for Dean to do the things he does when the same is not ok for Sam when he does things that Dean doesn't approve of.

It is a little hard for me to discuss your comment because yes, I do believe what I posted and I posted a very small amount of the evidence I see to back up my point.

People who used post on here and some that still do will remember how much we used post about the complexity of the storylines and where they must be going. This is at the beginning of Season 8. We used get a good deal of articles and general internal discussion about how the writers should be allowed write what they want because they WEREN'T taking orders from fandom - and that was actually fine because it (clearly) meant that they had a storyline and a plan.

Also very quickly it became clear that the storyline was only making a specific segment of the fandom unhappy - people who wanted to see the show from Sam's point of view as well as Dean's - while those who had no interest in Sam except as an appendage to Dean just didn't have any issue except that Dean should have the mytharc as well. I am not saying that the fandom divides into just those two groups because it doesn't, however that second group is pretty large and getting larger as the viewers who used watch for Sam ALSO, have lost interest in the show.

And we in the first group were told to stop complaining, boy were we told, a lot of people stopped posting because they were being accused of negativity and bringing everyone down. So for a long time we quietened down so as not to be rocking the boat - and the 'Mytharc for Dean' (and a certain, totally fanon, ship which will remain nameless) just got louder especially with the two principle Dean fanboys in the writing staff being very available on Twitter (and no I don't feel I have to qualify that, they have both made it pretty clear that Dean, and their own characters, are who they write for)

Sam has NOT been sidelined for 1/2 a season he has been sidelined as a person, as Sam, since Jeremy Carver took over, since the beginning of Season 8 -that is 2 1/2 seasons. Even the arc of the angel possession which seemed to be about Sam was, it turns out, about getting Dean to where he is now. Really having Dean be so-over-the-top offended by Sam thinking he was dead (and (Sam) having a totally unimportant nervous breakdown as a result) has been about getting Dean to where he is now. Even the trials, as someone pointed out, were told more from how they affected Dean than how they affected Sam.

Mytharc is NOT a character's story, it is more often than not the story of the people around the person being mytharced.

I would be perfectly happy for Sam to never be the 'what is wrong with this character? Who cares, let's go watch his brother emote' ever again. Ever. I am convinced that JC is going to mytharc Sam into complete oblivion by the end of the season and that will be three solid seasons where Sam has really never had his story told. Sacrifice was a bright and shining exception (with Sam's Knights of the round table commentary a good second) but neither of these revelations has been noticed since, in fact Season 9 and now season 10 has worked to make both of them redundant since Dean (ie the WRITERS) clearly didn't 'get' what was important to Sam about those stories and has (have) managed to undo the good of both.

The fact that people conflate 'mytharc' with 'story' is the reason why we get so many movies like Transformers (all bang and no brain) and so little of anything worth watching more than once.

I can watch early seasons of Supernatural over and over and it doesn't feel like I am watching 'the angst of Dean' it feels like I am watching a moving story about two people living impossible lives. Nowadays I don't believe any of it on any level because it isn't emotionally true, it is fanservice true.
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Alice
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People who used post on here and some that still do will remember how much we used post about the complexity of the storylines and where they must be going. This is at the beginning of Season 8. We used get a good deal of articles and general internal discussion about how the writers should be allowed write what they want because they WEREN'T taking orders from fandom - and that was actually fine because it (clearly) meant that they had a storyline and a plan.


Ahh, I remember those days well. (Reminisces, smiles, realizes that I've been doing that a lot lately for other shows and other fandoms...) I'm just mostly sick that I'm so damned bored with all of these episodes and how every episode has turned into a TV trope. And Jared and Jensen must be dying over how every episode now is ending with a touching brotherly chat. Didn't they just make fun of that in "Fan Fiction"? Rinse, lather repeat. Ah well, things evolve, and there's plenty of other entertainment out there. I'll cling onto my memories of what this show once was.
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Guest wrote:

I agree. I would love to see Dean figure out that Sam is more then a job and burdon. I'd like to see a true brotherhood but i don't think that will ever happen. Especially if both Jensen and Dean has such a low opinion of Sam and they see others as better brothers. Dean is always looking for that better brother.


WOW so much spoken on the Sam & Dean brotherhood. I pretty much agree with everybody. I do wish the writers would see that the boys are adults now and are individuals. Some episodes I sit back and think I LOVE my sisters very much but if they spoke to me like that I would snot them one or walk out. Of course we would sort it out eventually, & learn from it. But some weeks I feel Dean is out right UGLY to Sam and he appears to just except it This totally frustrates me AARRRRRRRRRGGHHH
OK its just a show but to alot of us its more. Two brothers trying to save humanity - love, hurt, death all that, But honestly how many people would except the CONSTANT PUT DOWNS, bullying, and your not good enough. S9 Ep23 - When Sam went into the church to cure Crowley & had to go to the confessional first - Dean offers to help him in what to say 1. How you didn't bother to look for me while I was in purgurtory, 2. Demon Blood 3. Ruby 4. Taking a year off ---- EXCUSE ME but who died and made you Mr Perfect ( Sorry getting emotional now -- For goodness sake its a show ) The boys are at a age now where clever writers could say--- We have the young son Sam whose, smart strong studious and likes to think and read lets make him a Man of Letters - who finds the cases for his equally strong & strong willed smart brother. Two seperate identities brought together by one goal. To win Thanks for reading my rant PS - I LOVE MY BOYS xxxxxxxxxxxxoooooooooo
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TOB58
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Wow. I surprised myself. I was wondering for a while if I was just imagining that Sam had virtually disappeared. I know I watch from Sam's POV, and even when he has no voice, I tend to fill in the blanks. I wondered if I was really doing that, or if there were hints hidden that I did not see before. I was looking for subtle hints that would lead up to that last episodes of season 8 when he actually got to say something.
So, I did what I had to do: I watched all of season 8, 9 & 10 again. I wanted to record how often Sam's words or actions conveyed his POV. I did not want to include the facial expressions (bitchface, sad face, smiley face...) even tho JP does them so well, but the actual dialog or action in the script
I fully expected to find little hints along the way, things that told a story about Sam and his POV. I was wrong. I was so wrong. It surprised me so much that I reviewed season's 1-5 and then 6&7. Wow.
The pattern I got from these last 2.5 years was pretty much Sam says nothing. When he does say something he is cut off or he says it so badly no one really sees the real POV. Then, during the last 2 or 3 episodes he makes a speech which produces the effect of giving me hope that we'll see more of this kind of thing, which doesn't happen.
When I look to pre season 8 episodes, I don't see that at all. He has a voice, even if he's not completely himself. He has a voice throughout the entire season.
Honestly, I think i've been on edge, searching for any clue, hoping for more insight, that I didn't fully realize how obvious it has been in the Carver years. My plan to document those "hints" started out OK in season 8 but quickly sunk to the bottom of the sea in 9 & 10. And the obvious missed opportunities have risen to the top. It wouldn't have taken alot to fill in some blanks. If this season doesn't end with a reason or purpose to this, I will be disappointed, because it means that's the Sam we will continue to get. That's the Sam they see.
Wow. Maybe I should not have looked at this so deeply.
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TOB58 you are so right. I've been watching a lot of pre-season 8 episodes lately and the difference in the writing for Sam is so glaring that I can't believe it isn't obvious to everyone. Over the past 2 years, scene after scene, episode after episode it's clear that Sam's role and POV have been so diminished that he no longer seems like a co-lead. He now seems more like the trusty sidekick. It's such a stark contrast to the earlier seasons that I can't help feeling it was a conscious decision by Carver/Singer to focus on Dean to the exclusion of Sam. It really bums me out.
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Jen
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Just a quick note to samanddean & TOB58 During Hellatus and any time really I like to go back through different seasons of SPN and watch my fav. Eps again. Also getting involved with WFB has made me look at the show differently. I feel that S1 - S5 belonged to both boys. Sam & Dean appear to have equal partnership in the show.
( The Kripke era ) Then The Gamble era seemed not to bad ---------------- Then Singer & Carver downhill. If they wont to have a major story line for DEan thats fine but they should be able to balance it out with a equally involved Sam I have chatted in depth about this with samanddean before
We seem to go around & around with discussion with no final out come

We all seem to agree that its the writers - who are Sam ignorant and are possibly influenced by fandom ??????????????
Is there anyway we can get any answers from somewhere. ?????????? I love both boys like you all. I love SPN -- I don't wont it going down this path.
Is Sam privately disappointed and maybe spoken about this to SPN ??????????????
I did read in his latest chat while promoting his T-Shirt campaign for depression. That he was needing more time off with the family ( I'm going on memory here ) could this be another reason why they have lightened his load ????????????

More questions ----------- still disappointed -------------- still no answers
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Jen wrote:I did read in his latest chat while promoting his T-Shirt campaign for depression. That he was needing more time off with the family ( I'm going on memory here ) could this be another reason why they have lightened his load ????????????
I don't think this is an issue. Sam, as a character, isn't absent from the show all that often. He's physically present in all of the episodes, it's just that he's given absolutely nothing of worth to do, and even less to say. Sam just stands around, nodding his head, looking worried etc. When Sam is in scenes with other characters all he does is listen and nod, he rarely speaks. If there was a plan for Sam, and Padalecki did, for whatever reason, need to spend more time with his family then surely the writers/showrunner would have him do more with the time that he does spend on set than waste his time by having him do nothing. They haven't done that.
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Hi Jen and MK. At one point Jen, I had the same thought you did- maybe for some reason Jared asked for a lighter load? But as MK correctly points out, Sam is still in large portions of most episodes, he's just not being given anything to do or say. Sometimes I think I'd actually prefer it if he weren't in the episode at all. I find it painful watching him stand in the background like a coat rack. I constantly wonder what he and Jensen think of the disparity in how the brothers are written. It must be very noticeable to them that Jensen has a lot more dialogue. The script frequently must just read "Sam stands silently watching Dean talking to ....." I know it's kind of sad how much I obsess over this, but it almost seems like a different show to me now. I watch for the brothers and all I'm getting is one brother.
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Jen
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It is blantatly obvious I agree and this comes back to the question I always ask you Ladies - J & J won't the show to continue for us and themselves.
They are still passionate and believe there are still good stories to be told They both are still fiercely protective of Sam & Dean, and won't let their characters be sullied in any way, just on the weekend at The Vegas Con, they said this again.

Do they know something we don't like a good story line coming up. I strongly agree with you Somethings happening, I can't see The Boys standing for this. Who's pulling the Wool over Who's eyes. Maybe OHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I don't know But surfing the net and looking at other Fan Sites They are all saying the same thing.

HEY WHAT ABOUT THAT COAT RACK -- SORRY THATS SAM So Sad xo :( :(
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sylvia37
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Jen wrote:

It is blantatly obvious I agree and this comes back to the question I always ask you Ladies - J & J won't the show to continue for us and themselves.
They are still passionate and believe there are still good stories to be told They both are still fiercely protective of Sam & Dean, and won't let their characters be sullied in any way, just on the weekend at The Vegas Con, they said this again.

Do they know something we don't like a good story line coming up. I strongly agree with you Somethings happening, I can't see The Boys standing for this. Who's pulling the Wool over Who's eyes. Maybe OHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I don't know But surfing the net and looking at other Fan Sites They are all saying the same thing.

HEY WHAT ABOUT THAT COAT RACK -- SORRY THATS SAM So Sad xo :( :(


I'm so glad I'm not the only one who wonders about these things. I see Jared tweeting and I wonder if he realizes as he watches, what's happening. Does he see Sam the way we do? We all know there are scenes that were filmed that don't get into the final cut, but unless the person who edits the episodes has it out for Jared and cuts every scene where he has some Sam POV, it has to be obvious to Jared too, right?

I hate that I watch the show now with this negativity I feel hanging over my head. Watching "The Things They Carry", when Sam said, "Okay, you stay here with Cole and I'll go look for Kit," I just rolled my eyes and thought, here we go. Dean gets to emote and give speeches and interact with the important character, and Sam gets to go off and do....whatever. It was particularly blatant when Kit's wife asked him "Who are you" and typically, Sam says absolutely nothing.

I wrote this a while back on another thread, but I feel like watching Sam's lack of POV on this show is like being in front of this incredibly delicious looking banquet while starving, and being forced to stand behind the ropes while they toss you a scrap or two once in a while. We're all going to stand behind the ropes until we starve to death, aren't we?
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Jen
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I am starving to death :( :( I LOVE MY SAM and its so cruel to see whats going on. I watched the latest Vegas Con videos on Utube - hoping OHHHHHHHHH so hoping for a little tit bit of something from the boys - nothing.

Jared looked soooooooooooo sick :( I honestly thought he was going to pass out at the breakfast gold chat.} And Jensen I have never seen him on such a high. I normally feel a bit sorry for him because Jared seems to overtalk him at times or takes the front sit. But Jared seemed very removed from the situation, I know he was sick so obvious,
poor sweet heart. xxoo
I surf the net at least 2 - 3 times a day hoping to find some little chatter about something but nothing.

BOTH BOYS ARE BEING BADLY TREATED. And if they relize they are keeping mum about it. and supporting their fans Thank You Jared & Jensen xxoo
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Sylvia I feel your pain. I honestly feel a sense of dread before each episode. Dread that Sam will once again be sidelined. So I sit there and monitor his screen time, dialogue and interactions with guest stars like a hawk. And each time I'm disappointed. Like the guest at your banquet who has to watch all of the delicious food be thrown in the garbage at the end of the night as she drools in hunger. (The metaphor sounded better in your comment!) I am starving for some Sammy, and not in a sexy way.
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Russ
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Jen wrote:
I did read in his latest chat while promoting his T-Shirt campaign for depression. That he was needing more time off with the family ( I'm going on memory here ) could this be another reason why they have lightened his load ????????????


I'll throw myself into the lions den here, but I've heard this theory a few times - the guys are getting older and need rest/need more family time etc - but as far as I'm concerned, they get paid boatloads of money, so they should suck it up.

If they need a rest, then they can stop doing 745 conventions every god damn year. They even do conventions during the middle of filming the season. That's retarded.

The fellas get no sympathy from me on that front.
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Wow. I don't get all the animosity shown in some of these posts. I get that viewers are invested in these characters-that's why the show is going to have an 11th season. But geez!
Sam and Dean make mistakes in judgement. The differences between them is the scale of the impact of those decisions.
Sam trusts Ruby, we get Lucifer rising.
Dean trusts Benny, monsters in Purgatory get killed.
Sam trusts Grandpa Campbell and we end up with Leviathans.
Dean trusts Gordon, vamps get killed and Sam endangered.
Face it folks, Sam does have more to atone for than Dean. It's just fact. Dean's decisions affect individuals. Sam's decisions affected the world.
And you say Sam doesn't have a story this season, like working as hard as he can to save the one person on earth who has always loved him is not a big deal. It is. Especially when that person has given up and resigned himself to his fate.
You say Dean treated Sam like crap over the years? Watch the show again. Sam has been nastier to Dean than Dean was to him. Dean just gets Sam and ignores a lot of it. But of course he can't ignore the bad decisions Sam made.
As for me, I love both of them because they represent two archetypes of strong men. Supernatural is a great show that tells great stories.
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Sharon
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No disrespect but you do realize Dean broke the first seal and that there were 64 seals inbetween that Sam had nothing to do with. Sam played a role but he certainly was not soley responsible for what happened..
Blaming Sam for the Leviathans is a reach esp as Castiel brought them into the world and did not really having anything to do with Sam trusting Samuel. As for atoning I think nearly 200 yrs in a cage with Lucifer is enough atoning for anyone do you not think.

Dean makes decisions that can have huge impact whether on the individual esp Sam or a wider impact and going and getting the MOC will if it went pear shaped cause alot of problems for alot of people.
As for Sam being 'nastier' I think that is not really true Dean has given as good as he gets frankly as well.
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I'm not really happy with Sam's story line so far. But there are two things I wonder about:

First, how many Supernatural fans share the overall opinion in this thread that Sam's role in this season is not right because he's out of character (not being able to come up with clever ideas, even though he's smart), not playing a big enough role or not getting any sympathy for his actions? Are we the only ones who think this way, or are there a lot of fans unhappy with Sam's story line?

And second, do Jeremy Carver and the other people of the show have any idea what the fans think and say about the show? I have no idea how much Carver cares about fan's opinions and whether he even knows that fans are not happy with how the show is going.
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eilf
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Copied from Alice's Review of "Angel Heart"

While Erik Kripke came out to clarify (and apologise) that bad things that were said about Dean in show were part of the storyline and that fans should not think they were really saying bad stuff about Dean, and the writers on a regular basis pander to the noisy fans of a certain ship, and male characters that the fandom like get brought back with impunity even if it involves rewriting or ignoring what those characters have done previously, there is no evidence whatsoever that they listen to the problems the rest of us have with the writers screwing around with canon as long as it is only Sam who comes out looking bad in the process.

Yes I get that that is all one ridiculously long sentence but sometimes long sentences are required ....

There is no point at all complaining to RT on Twitter, that only works for the segments of fandom who have the same opinion as him as to who is the central character (singular) of this show. Also going on twitter will make you angry :-)

If you realize this about RT and then go back and look at Fan Fiction you will notice that the line about 'poor brave selfless Sam' is almost entirely there as a dig at supporters of the character and his storyline.
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Eilf, I had never thought about it that way, but upon reflection what you say makes sense. Even though I have liked some of RT's episodes, the RT of late clearly has a huge pro-Dean bias. While I loved and enjoyed most of Fan Fiction, the one thing that really bothered me was that, as usual, only Dean had any meaningful conversations with one of the guest stars-Marie. It seemed particularly galling and inexplicable because Marie was a self-professed Sam girl! Once she became convinced that Sam and Dean were the real thing, she should have sought out SAM to have a heart to heart with, not Dean. That sure as hell is what I would do if I suddenly met the real Winchesters!:) So why have her even confess to being a Sam girl? It makes sense as a dig at the complaining Sam fans, as you suggest.
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