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  1. Alice
  2. The Fandom
  3. Thursday, 16 April 2015
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First off, this statement represents my viewpoint and my viewpoint alone. I am not speaking for other writers or admins, but as editor-in-chief/founder of this site, sometimes a situation arises where I feel the need to speak out. Given my last few days, I think we all could use a reality check.

Monday we put out an article promoting an upcoming Supernatural academic event of which we are a sponsor. The article led to some unexpected backlash that quite frankly took myself and our Managing Editor Nightsky by surprise. Its come to my attention that some fans have taken this opportunity to run a vitriolic campaign against one of our writers, Bookdal.

I have to be perfectly honest. I stay out of Twitter controversies anymore and I have never spent time on Tumblr. Why? At risk of generalizing, it’s because what’s said and done in the name of “fandom” is many times misperceived and overblown. It usually results in words being exchanged, parties on both sides of the controversy getting emotionally hurt, situations escalating super fast and it’s no win. I absolutely hate the no win situation. The whole thing is counter productive to what I enjoy about this fandom and what the SPN Family is really all about.

My time has grown extremely limited in the past year, so I’m forced to choose how I spend my online time wisely. I didn’t know much about Bookdal creating a stir on Twitter a few weeks ago that has since escalated into a very nasty conflict. Given some of the comments I’ve received in the past few days, the situation has become very scary and goes way beyond the boundaries of how upset fans should react. It goes beyond the boundaries of decent human behavior.

I’m not here to say if what Bookdal said was right or wrong. That’s a judgment I’m not willing to make. For one, it’s none of my business. I do not know her intent nor am I going to make assumptions based on a 140 character or less message. Twitter is not a narrative. I do know that I’ve shot my mouth off on Twitter numerous times myself and it’s usually led to tons of regret. Through the years I’ve constantly found myself having to take a stand against irrational fan behavior and drawing a line in the sand. After merely promoting a conference, one that’s very good for our show and our fandom, here we go again. It makes no sense.

These battles are constant and never seem to end. For example, just a few weeks ago I ripped the episode “Paint It Black” on my Twitter because I was so angry that anyone possibly considered that to be an acceptable episode. I was also upset that two writers again delivered another atrocity, so from the urging of a few fans I put out a poll asking what the worst episodes were from Brad Buckner and Eugenie Ross-Leming. Not my finest hour, even though it is a fair poll question. I got tons of backlash for that from “pro Supernatural” fans, who then got tons of backlash from other fans for running a “bully” campaign. It was just nuts. In the end, both sides of the fence were hurting quite a bit and it went beyond the realm of what was mere venting over a bad episode.

Then there was the recent time that we put out a Motivational Poster (created by our male writer) captioning Dean between Charlie’s legs. “Fandom Agrees: Every guy wants to be Dean, Every girl wants to be Charlie.” It was a purely heterosexual joke. Again, we were thrown back by someone we regarded as a colleague running attacks on us for being offensive to gay and lesbian groups with that poster. Honestly? In defiance, I let the poster stand, even though I would have been willing to change it if we were approached reasonably. I wasn’t about to give into bullying or give into a this sense of outrage that explodes online any time anyone goes “boo.” Plus, I thought the poster was funny. Sue me.

http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/images/Motivational-Posters/MotivationalS10/FandomAgrees.jpg

Since Monday I’ve gotten numerous messages and posts about Bookdal being a panelist at the conference and our support of her appearance. They’ve been all over the spectrum. Many have been very nasty but others have been wildly supportive as well. I’m going to share just a few of the supportive ones, because this is why I haven’t lost all faith in this fandom (although I’m getting close).

I have seen this kind of attack happen to others - it is like these individuals are just sitting around waiting to pounce. Heck, one even had screenshots all ready to go!

It is individuals holding a grudge & lashing out at someone who simply shares different opinion than their own.

I encourage the organizers of the event to look at Bookdal's professional credentials, as that is what is of primary importance...not the uncomfortably over-invested behavior of a few fans with grudges.

Text book bullying. Take a look in the mirror and do some serious self reflection before you pollute a comment page with misinformation, misinformation which by the way has nothing to do with anything else here except to point out you don't like someone you have never met in real life. You simply don't like their point of view , and have a transparent agenda to silence them.

I don't know Bookdal and don't know much about the context, but it sounds like it was an emotional response in the heat of the moment to friends (that unfortunately happened to be online), on what is a very heated topic. It doesn't sound like there was any homophobic element, and it doesn't read like she was really attempting to start a real campaign to harass anyone.  It was venting to friends.

Or how about I share the words of Bookdal herself that she put on this page in her defense:

First, I'm representing myself and over fifteen years of fandom research on meta that I have engaged in as a scholar, the past five of which have dealt with Supernatural among other shows. Second, my twitter posts are mine and not WFB endorsed and most of my followers are not even Supernatural related. Finally, if you are going to indulge in ad hominem attacks (fancy word for name calling) then you can read all of my metas, only one of which ever mentioned Wincest and that was as a joke.

So what’s my response to this? Just stop. I want to enjoy my show, or speak out about my show when it falls short in the quality department. It’s a TV show people. It’s fiction. Attacking fans and waging all out campaigns to ruin someone both professionally and personally is extending boundaries beyond the intent of the fiction. It’s wrong on so many levels. What’s worse is that I’m actually saying this. I shouldn’t have to.

I do know Bookdal. I’ve gotten to know her a bit and have met her personally. I have no idea what happened that night but all I know is she’s a good person. Too often the anonymity of the Internet frees us to NOT think of someone else as a real person and makes us easily assume the worst about actions and intent. I don’t see a lot of people being given the benefit of the doubt and that worries me. We aren’t like that when someone is standing next to us.

As for the numerous threats that I’ve gotten that people will stop coming to the WFB if we support Bookdal, its kind of interesting that those doing the threats are not regular visitors. I can easily trace IP addresses! So I don’t buy into any of that. Those that are dedicated to the Winchester Family Business know what we’re all about. We’re here to talk about Supernatural in a way where all fans are respected. If that’s not your thing, that’s fine, we aren’t for every one. But this has always been our philosophy from day one. That isn’t changing today. We will not engage in shipping wars, fandom wars, fans of a specific actor wars or any clash that results in hurt feelings or worse.

I don’t believe in a “Don’t get mad, get even” campaign just because of one tweet. I don’t believe in ruining one person’s life because that person takes a stance that is unpopular to some. I don’t believe in fans turning on other fans, no matter what the differences. I believe in being inspired by a TV show and expressing in many different ways why.

Can I say with pride that every single comment or discussion on the Winchester Family Business falls within the parameters of good behavior? Heavens no. We’re human and this show does drive a certain passion. But we try. We believe in the goodness in this fandom and most of all behaving like adults and practicing common courtesy. The day I stop believing that is the day I pack up this site for good.

So there’s my official stance. You are allowed to share your opinions on the topic openly on this page. I won’t edit unless it involves threats, but the optimist in me is hoping it won’t come to that.

Keep calm and carry on wayward son.

Alice
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Kate
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Because I don't like hypocrites either, Boodal, I thought I might do a quick compare-and-contrast of your reaction to Jared posting a Wincest manip of two naked men with J2's heads photoshopped on it at his Facebook:

@bookdal No seriously, Padalecki posting the most shippy manip in fandom has me floored and amazed and tired and amazed and ....

@bookdal @FiercelyNormal *waiting for Ackles to respond in kind*

‏@bookdal @Ash48SPN IT IS GLORIOUS.

Care to explain the 180°?

It's you that's the hypocrite.
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MadIzzy
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Wow. This may show my age a bit, but I miss the days where I could enjoy a tv show and have intelligent conversations about them without dealing with "fandoms". Everyone needs to sit back and relax. And realize that Supernatural is a television show meant to entertain us and allow us to escape the chaos of our real lives. It's really quite sad to see so many "fans" get so worked up over fictional "ships" that it ends up ruining the show for everyone else. Get your act together and grow up. Geesh.
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cheryl42
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That was a very reasonable response to this whole issue. I agree the comments went beyond decency. And I do feel strongly that Bookdal owes an apology to Jensen. Hopefully this will be a lesson learned for everyone who posts inflammatory comments on social media. You aren't sitting at home talking to your friends on the phone. These comments are out there forever. I have seen comments posted about Jared and Misha as well as the wives and children of all three that were not only beyond the bounds of decency but really did border on criminal behavior. This fandom gets so involved in their own fantasy worlds they forget that these are real people with real lives and that should be respected. I know most of you don't post on the WFB but Alice did try to give everyone a voice (including her own) and I do appreciate her effort. I hope everyone understands why we all were confused as to why this website was targeted. Almost all of us were caught completely off guard. Other than what you have already accomplished with your campaign I am not sure still what is required of the WFB or it's followers. All we can do is agree that these types of comments should be thought out much more carefully before being published.
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xxxx
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Can we please stop it with the "Bookdal is encouraging people to sexually harass Jensen Ackles" comments? That's only been stated NUMEROUS times. Message received the first hundred times. Saying it over and over again makes this discussion unreadable and unbearable! This isn't Tumblr. We discuss things here. Give us something better, like why you think this is unacceptable. What sort of things have you experienced online that make this sort of message harassment? I still haven't heard anything concrete from Destielers about why this makes you angry or how this affects your ship. I need more than accusations of sexual harassment.


This is not about Destielers. This is not about shipping. This is about Jensen Ackles. This is about respecting the actors and behaving like a mature adult, not like a crazed fan who wants to punish an actor for tweeting a picture.

I'm not sure the message has been received when you then basically pose questions like, why is sexual harassment unacceptable? Why were bookdal's tweets encouraging such awful behavior unacceptable?

I am not a shipper, I don't care about any ship, wincest, destiel, etc. I am a Jensen fan and I was offended by what bookdal was encouraging people to do. It's wrong in the real world and it's wrong in fandom. This is just a television show with fictional characters, but the actors are real people, and they deserve to be respected and treated with decency and common courtesy. What bookdal wanted people to do, what she encouraged people to do, violated all of those things.
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LEAH
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When I saw that photo my first reaction was "Oh no, they are going to regret that one". Not because it was so horrible, they have a juvenile sense of humor sometimes. I just knew the fandom enough to foresee a backlash. I had no idea. I feel everyone along the line including Bookdal overreacted. Hasn't anyone seen the gag reels? As far as I can see there was NO danger to Jensen. Does anyone really think the convention was going to allow a mass attack on Jensen with ship related and sexually explicit questions? First Jensen would ignore them and second ejection and permanent banishment would follow. Why would anyone waste their money on such pettiness?

I applaud Alice for trying to be fair and giving people a platform. It has gotten completely out of hand and I don't know why this site or Alice need to be criticized or have to apologize for ANYTHING that has happened.
  1. more than a month ago
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You know
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Alice,

As you well know this is exactly why I left the fandom years ago, I got tired of all the drama and went where is the common sense and logic. The drama has been around since season 1.

I follow twitter and read a few sites, but for the most part I normally have no clue about the drama unless you or someone else on twitter mentions it. To me the drama for the most part has gotten worse, attacking the cast, and crew because they don't share your shipping views. I just shake my head and go about my business, every now and then I'll say something if someone threatens a crew member for their posts, but for the most part I bail out of it.

I might not always agree with your reviews, but I'll never attack you for them. I am just always a positive person about the show, I am very relaxed and easy going and I hate to see something negative being written. Not everyone sees the show as I do, and I get that now. I am just an odd duck I think.

But every now and then this fandom does need a reality check thrown at them, sometimes it's like preaching to the choir. Those that understand it will, and those that refuse to won't.

However; please note, that even in it's darkest hour this fandom has done some wonderful and extraordinary things for people all over the world, and we shouldn't forget that and that's the part that should be celebrated more.
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Lina.
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The people trying to turn this into ship wars to use it as another reason to belittle Destielers are saying it's them that are making this all about a ship. No. This is about a collective disgust from all factions of fandom over some very disgusting statements that are being excused. But if some of you need to make this about ships you don't really need to look any farther than Bookdal's tweets, which is what we're supposed to be talking about.

By her own admission Jensen's photo was too shippy, she said. So the people trying to turn this around and blame it on a ship, maybe you're right after all in a way. This is all based on a ship and a person's deep hatred for it, one that runs uncontrolled in Supernatural fandom. Bookdal made it about a ship, not the Destielers. I've seen my Destiel friends and followers joke that Destiel haters care more about Destiel then they do because no matter what everything inevitably becomes about Destiel. It's happening here in this discussion. You just have to wait long enough. Except this didn't become about the ship in the replies. It's always been about the ship because that's the basis of Bookdal's tweets for Jensen and for her defense of them. He tweeted something and it was too shippy for her so he deserved to be punished with "specific and uncomfortably sexual" questioning. That's it by her own admission and defense. People are angry because this irrational reaction of harassment against other people but I suppose you can't deny its about a irrational hate of a ship too. I don't think it's fair to put the blame on the Destielers by saying this is a vendetta and asking why are people so upset. It's not just them who are upset by this. Why try to turn it around on the Destielers when hate for Destiel was the reason Bookdal reacted in such a disgusting way in the first place?

For me, my reaction to Bookdal had nothing to do with that ship. I have zero investment in it. My reaction was based on the fact that there's a person in this world who thought a photo of two friends was too shippy and someone needed to pay for it. It scares me that person and some people here believe that response is normal and acceptable. It's upsetting to me there's people defending that kind of irrational behavior that comes from repeat offenders. And I worry when people like that are blindly given power without check.

The line of thinking was simple. "This is a ship I hate. Jensen seems to be supporting that ship. Punish him."

That anyone sees such an irrational and what I feel dangerous response is worthy of defense is beyond me.

Sexual harassment, hate fueled and irrational reactions like that to a photo or a pretend ship are dangerous in fandom and possibly the real world. I saw how negatively Bookdal reacted when her followers and others reacted to her tweets when she made them, her rationale behind them, and how she responded to people here. That's enough for me to be nervous about her and wonder how she might respond in person if it was brought up or if anyone disagreed with her about something. If a person has those kinds of hair trigger reactions, a public record of responding with hate or violence and shows no remorse or awareness of why reactions like that are wrong, why should people not be questioning it?
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Lisa
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Here's an interesting thought.

Would Bookdal have reacted the same way if that had been a picture of Jensen and Jared?
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QueenLee
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I've been thinking a lot of the double standards in this fandom. I wonder if Alice can honestly say she'd be bending over backwards to defend a Destiel fan who worked on her site who, hypothetically, snapped in anger after Jared posted a picture in Jensen that could be interpreted in a romantic way and pandering to Wincest and the J2 tinhats. If that Destiel fan had encouraged others to ask Jared sexually uncomfortable questions about Wincest and raged at Jared for being a hypocrite, and then when called on it was completely unapologetic and unrepentant, would there be such a willingness for Alice to downplay the actions of this Destiel fan? Or would that person be dropped from ever working on her site again, and would we be treated to another lengthy diatribe of how Destiel shippers are ruining the fandom and going too far? I hope these are questions Alice is asking herself and they are questions all of us should be asking ourselves when something like this comes up.
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cheryl42
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That is a lot of assumptions to make about someone you don't know.
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Suri
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There's a blurry line between defending a friendship and acting according to what is conceive as (bad/wrong) out of proper behaviour, and using poor excuses like a misunderstanding, or worse condoning it. doesn't make it any better. since we were children society have established norms of behavior, so as to judge what is right or wrong, and how we must live and submit to this standard to have a normal coexistence in society, I'm saying this because as rational adults, with intelligence, we are able to determine when we have done wrong, you know that, no need to explain it, and since we are using social media we have seen the extremist part of freedom of expression and opinion, no one is saying that nobody has the right to express their free opinion on issues, but comments like this, directed at harming another person, are wrong, any rational person knows it, and although at the time of this commentary this person could have been experiencing a very bad emotional reaction, which is not a excuse. you can still see the real intention behind that comment. is quite clear that this person has not established a boundary between reality and fiction, but that's not my business, which seems inconceivable is that we have to explain why we believe that this person has done wrong, when it is clear and evidente through some tweets that have been posted, and is also quite clear that you're defending a friendship. This makes it clear that although although we are nobody to judge, one might think that you share the position taken by the person who made the comment. it's unfortunate that issues like this are being supported by a website, that is supposedly aimed at fandom, that the person running this page appears to support certain behaviors directed at affecting or cause harm against the actors, who "supposedly" they say to support and love.
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cheryl42
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But there was a reaction and there were results. And if you are concerned about her attending the event then you should make the people organizing it aware of your concerns. They can then take whatever appropriate action they deem necessary. The tweets weren't made in a professional forum. They were made in a twitter account that seems to me were more for her private life. Yes it is also a public forum but again you seemed to accomplish what you wanted. The tweets were deleted and no further offensive comments were made. But other than an apology to Jensen I don't know what else you need.
  1. more than a month ago
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Pat
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My issue is simply this, she's attending this event as a professional. Yet, the tweets were unprofessional. What she says on her personal account does reflect on her position here. You can not say incendiary things, and think there will be no reaction. Professional standards SHOULD include ethics.
  1. more than a month ago
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cheryl42
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Well now I'm confused. According to the posts above this is about Bookdal's personal ship. She ships Wincest? Is this a shipping war? I haven't seen anyone bring up this issue on this website or discuss any shipping between any characters. It isn't a topic that gets discussed here. What people do privately is there own business. But according to some posts here you feel that Bookdal took it too far. That's fair enough but it seems that the target was Jensen. Shouldn't all of this be brought to Jensen's attention? And Misha since he was also in the photo in question. It seems to me that you have accomplished what you wanted. You brought attention to a series of tweets that were offensive, the tweets were removed and as far as I can tell there haven't been any further tweets that were considered offensive. If you feel strongly enough that Jensen has been personally attacked then he should be made aware of it and then he can take whatever action he feels is necessary.
As far as demanding an apology from Bookdal that is up to her. And it seems the person she needs to apologize to is Jensen.
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Freebird
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I don't know how to reply to the replies of my post, so I'll just use another comment box.

Guest, Guest, Guest and Guest, I apologize if you feel insulted, for that was never my intention.

Alice, thank you! I support you in your effort to bring reasonableness into this craziness (hope this is correct English).

Cheryl42, I agree with you 100%.

Peace!
  1. more than a month ago
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Alice
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I'm getting discouraged now because things sadly have turned ugly. No one is allowed to attack other posters who are showing support. How about stating your position for your anger and frustration?

Can we please stop it with the "Bookdal is encouraging people to sexually harass Jensen Ackles" comments? That's only been stated NUMEROUS times. Message received the first hundred times. Saying it over and over again makes this discussion unreadable and unbearable! This isn't Tumblr. We discuss things here. Give us something better, like why you think this is unacceptable. What sort of things have you experienced online that make this sort of message harassment? I still haven't heard anything concrete from Destielers about why this makes you angry or how this affects your ship. I need more than accusations of sexual harassment. I was hoping for more open discussion.

I'm sorry, but I read a great comment earlier in this thread about being part of a fandom. It made me take pause because I never looked at it this way. It helps me understand what's motivating some of this outrage. Can we move beyond the insults now? Tell us the hardship and crap you take for supporting your ship. Tell me why this is hypocrisy. Tell me WHY this is disturbing you.

Thanks everyone. I apologize for the tone, but moderating all these messages is really making me cranky.
  1. more than a month ago
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cheryl42
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Again this is your personal fight. As I said I don't know Bookdal. I don't follow her twitter, I don't follow tumblr and until 2 days ago I had no idea this fight existed. I get it your upset but what am I supposed to do about it? What is the WFB supposed to do about it? You all seem to be handling this on your own. If Bookdals followers are also the problem go after them. I am not participating in harassing anyone anywhere. This isn't about me or this website. This is between you and Bookdal. I don't apologize for anyone I don't know.
  1. more than a month ago
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cheryl42
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It seems the whole thing boils down to this. Someone you don't know made some comments that you didn't like about someone else you don't know concerning a situation that never happened and you want her to pay with her life. And you want a website that you don't participate on to champion your cause about an issue that they were totally unaware of until 2 days ago or again there will be a price to pay for our ignorance. How can we endorse something we never knew existed. Again what do you want Alice or the WFB to do? They have no control over the event in question. They cannot demand that Bookdal make a public apology. They can't launch a campaign to remove all objectionable comments from social media (although I would support that cause). What exactly is it you want from Alice and the WFB? You come at us (and yes I consider myself a part of this website) with "evidence" that someone said something you didn't like and you demand action. And by the way if someone cherry picked through every comment I ever made on social media an apology would be the least of my concerns. I'd probably be looking at Guantanimo.
This is your fight please don't expect us to champion your cause because you are upset by comments that don't have anything to do with us or probably the majority of SPN fans. I don't know Bookdal and like most of us here we don't follow twitter, facebook, tumblr or any other social media that doesn't pertain to our own personal lives. SPN is a television show that we love. I am sure that Jared and Jensen and everyone associated with the show is well aware of the craziness that goes on in the fandom and have taken proper steps to protect themselves from exposure to excessive opinions. Jensen particularly seems to get targeted by fans from all factions demanding that he address their personal concerns. He seems to be able to handle that pretty well.
  1. more than a month ago
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violetrose
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Why do people keep saying in comments that what bookdal said was taken out of context or they don't understand the situation or saying that she regrets what she did? She put it into context here and said she doesn't regret it and that what she did was right and ok. If you don't trust even her actual post she made go ask her and she'll tell you. She said all that herself. She hasn't apologized and she doesn't care and this website is defending her. I think its also funny how bookdal says all these things like her threats to Jensen and attacking the commenter who asked about the tweets and then they get deleted. They don't get deleted because she regrets them because she said so herself that she doesn't. They get deleted so she can do damage control and deny it until she gets caught and then cycle starts again. It's not about regret or learning how to be better it's about her image and making everyone who stands up to her look crazy. This isn't the first time it's happened but this time it's happening here and this website is helping her do it. It's a long pattern and that's why people here are upset and frustrated because it's happening all over again and will keep happening because no one here will even say the minimum of they don't agree with what she said and don't endorse it.
  1. more than a month ago
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Freebird
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Dear fellow fans, I can't believe what I'm reading here. How do you even have the time to follow, comment, analize, devide, reply and read all this? Where do you find the time to so deeply engage into this? Supernatural is a tv show, not real life! And real life is hard enough already, there's barely any time left for friends and family besides our jobs and errands.
Calm down! Please!

Alice, I admire your patience.

And I have no opinion on the matter discussed here, since I don't understand what's happening and why. Nor do I have the time for it.

Peace!
  1. more than a month ago
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heather
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I was surprised and upset by Bookdal's tweets because they were so mean-spirited and so entitled. The idea that Jensen Ackles or any actor/actress from any show owes you anything is really the heart of this.
That's why I'm surprised wfb is defending this type of behavior so ardently. It's okay to say she said something wrong. Like that's an okay thing to do. But insisting that it was out of context or that people or over reacting is not okay to me.
The best way to move on would be to admit some level of fault but bookdal's own comments here prove that she doesn't think there was anything wrong with what she said, at least that's my impression.
  1. more than a month ago
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guest
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This was taken off here apparently at Bookdal's request? Is that because she knew she crossed a line with it? If so why isn't there a response here from her owning that and apologizing to the person she was replying to? That person made a perfectly reasonable post here and was accused of "verbal violence." Why isn't Bookdal on here posting to say she is sorry for her 'verbal violence' towards 'Chele' and also for her 'verbal violence' towards Jensen Ackles? Who she felt needed to be 'punished' because he tweeted a picture of himself and his good friend?

Why is this person representing WFB and this show's fandom at this conference? She absolutely should not be.

(Edited by Alice - Site policy dictates if ANYONE wants a post removed and sends me a request, it's gone. Please respect our site policy. Keep trying to post this photo, I will keep deleting it).
  1. more than a month ago
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  3. # 22
Alice
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This is my response for Sissela Uisk's post that she made on the original thread. She requested that I reply to her comments and I am honoring this request. I must say, if anyone thinks that the Winchester Family Business is putting on this academic conference in Chicago, the post that started all this, you are mistaken. We are sponsors and nothing more. We had no role in organizing this event.

Sissela Uisk - Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15 2015 10:57:46am

I've seen the Celebration of Supernatural convention mentioned with respect and appreciation in my Destiel-friendly meta writer circles before we became aware of what one of the panelists had tweeted, but now Destiel shippers have to wonder if they can feel safe at your convention.

It’s not our convention. It’s a conference being held by Dr. Paul Booth of DePaul University. It’s just something we’re sponsoring and helping promote. A few of our writers are panelists too, but there are big names too that are outside of us including Maureen Ryan of the Huffington Post and the keynote speaker, Supernatural writer Robbie Thompson.

You (I'm addressing the WFB mod) want to disassociate bookdal and yourselves from any responsibility or repercussions based on what she said on Twitter, but Twitter does not exist in a vacuum. That's like saying whatever person X said in New York stays in New York and shouldn't affect their career in Seattle. The Internet is a part of real life, not separate from it.

I couldn’t disagree more. Twitter has turned into a beast that ruins the context of what is said by many people. 140 characters is really dangerous and should not be a basis for an expansive narrative. Take recently the case of Trevor Noah, the new host of the Daily Show. The announcement hadn’t been around for 24 hours and people were dragging up old tweets of his that they deemed racist when in fact they were jokes. Guess what, he’s a comedian! No one should be held to what is said on Twitter. It creates way too many misunderstandings and seems to be perfect fodder anymore for witch hunts or people who just like stirring up trouble.

We Destiel shippers are keenly aware of how they intersect – (name removed out of respect) got thrown out of Chicon last year based on a tweet. We all know it wasn't really because of the tweet; she was maliciously targeted, in her capacity as a well-known Destiel shipper, by some pretty dangerous people. They had harassed her for some time, cyberstalked her, doxxed her, and spread pictures of her children around the Internet against her express wishes. Those are the kind of people that Bookdal seems to align herself with.

I refuse to comment on that, because it’s not relevant. Bookdal wasn’t part of that action at all, so it’s unfair to associate her with it. I will say that it was unfair and targeted and hopefully will never happened again.

It's quite possible that Bookdal has been misunderstood. Her tweet came across not only as wanting to punish Jensen Ackles for tweeting a nice picture of himself with co-worker, but as inciting Destiel haters to ask JA inappropriate questions while posing as Destiel shippers, i.e. instigating a smear campaign against Destiel shippers. But maybe she just meant to express her certainty that JA's tweet would inevitably encourage Destiel shippers to act inappropriately?
(Which no one did, just for the record.)

Honestly, I don’t wish to speculate intent. It’ll drive me nuts. So I’ll refrain from addressing that as well.

I would like to give her the benefit of the doubt, but that's hard to do as long as she hasn't offered a public explanation. With her original tweet she made a public statement in a public forum. If she no longer stands by what she said, she needs to make a public statement retracting it, if she wants to qualify as a panelist at an academic convention.

That is up to the organizers of the event, not any fan. I personally would look at the qualifications of a panelist’s work and Bookdal easily qualifies in that regard. She has a distinguished set of work that goes well beyond a few tweets.

As it stands, there's a real danger that this convention will be seen as organized by Destiel/Cas/Misha haters, J2 tinhats – the kind of people who targeted (name removed) and who are pals with Bookdal on Twitter. Then I as a Destiel shipper would have to stay away, because I would certainly not feel comfortable there and possibly not even safe.

This isn’t your average convention. It’s an academic conference. It is much smaller. I think only a couple hundred will be there. There will be a wide range of panelists and presenters discussing a wide variety of topics. I don’t think one person’s views will skew an entire conference. That’s not how these things work. If anyone is concerned, just don’t go to Bookdal’s lecture then.

I appreciate that you're putting a lot of work into organizing something great for the Supernatural fandom and academia. I truly wish I could be there and listen to Robbie Thompson – I can't wait to hear the reports of what he has to say. I'm sincerely sorry that what seems like such a great event has to be tainted with this because of one person's bad judgment. But who you choose as panelists is going to affect the image of the whole convention, and this is in fact an issue. I chose to comment publicly here on your article because this is a discussion that needs to be had. The damage is already done, and it needs to be dealt with. Since this comment may be deleted I will also e-mail it directly to Dr. Booth.

Again, we have NOTHING to do with the organization of this conference. This is all being put on by Dr. Booth and DePaul University. He approached us about doing some promotion, and we are not the only fan site to do so. We had nothing to do in the panelist selection process. The only taint to this conference will be if people show up as a lynch mob and make a big fuss over something that has nothing to do with this event. I’m not sure where people are getting the impression that Bookdal will be a major presence at this event. That will fall on Robbie Thompson and other academics that will be there like Lynn and Kathy of Fangasm, who have made a career on documenting Supernatural fan behavior. I’ll be sure to have a discussion with them when I see them next on what happens when fan behavior turns very, very sour. That sounds like it’ll be a fruitful study.


I hope that answers your questions! I'll be happy to answer any more that come up.
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Alice
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Here are remaining messages from the original thread that we unpublished since it wasn't appropriate. This is not including messages that others have reposted here since then. Sorry it has taken me so long to get these together.

Claire - Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15 2015 4:03:34pm
You know deleting the comments is doing more harm than good for this website's reputation. Bookdal shouldn't have responded the way she did to Ackles' tweet: it was entitled in the extreme. I know about 15 people who have emailed Paul Booth about her and also sent him screenshots of her tweets, which are being reblogged on Tumblr again. Why doesn't she simply apologize?

PaolaJensen - Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15 2015 4:00:19pm
Maybe you should not comment since you obviously aren't aware of how Bookdal uses her twitter account? Or are you one of her tinhatter friends defending her? She tweeted telling her followers to sexually harass Jensen Ackles just because he tweeted a picture of him and Misha. Bookdal represents this fansite no matter how much it might try to disassociate itself from her. I know I won't bother reading here again if the site continues to cover that up.

quickreaver - Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15 2015 5:45:40pm
Your perceptions are not everyone's perceptions. Feel as you wish, but her appearance at this event threatens no one. Fabricating hyperbolic "what ifs" based on a rather obvious grudge is not only counter-productive, it's disingenuous. <i>That</i> is what was clear from your post.

SanSummer1 - Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15 2015 1:41:03pm
'Later today (when I can take a break from my day job) I will be reposting all these comments in their entirety on a new thread on our discussion page."
That seems like you want to wash your hands of the issue by posting the comments on another part of the site but it could just be an invitation for more wank because you had given validation to those people. Shouldn't you act more loyal towards a member of your site?

Sissela Uisk - Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15 2015 1:03:09pm
"Why are you doing what was done to Emily to Linda?" Emily went as a con-goer and reporter, while Bookdal is appearing as a panelist. I'm not out to get Bookdal personally, I hope that was clear from my post, but the fact that her actions, as an invited panelist, do cause the entire convention to be seen in a certain light does need to be addressed and can't be swept under the rug.

quickreaver - Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15 2015 4:00:06pm
This whole thing is so disheartening ... not for the event, but for fandom. There are a great many broad assumptions made in this post for which there is misplaced blame and no proof. Why are you doing what was done to Emily to Linda? I don't understand ... if you truly want to end this type of inter-fandom abuse, why are you perpetuating it? If we all exercised more empathy and tolerance, fandom would be a much sweeter place.

quickreaver - Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15 2015 3:47:33pm
Holy crow, talk about a grudge! I really hope you don't bring your ill will and poor behavior from the internet into the real world. What is your goal, here? I'd really like to know what you actually hope to gain ... besides revenge. The only thing that will potentially ruin this event are hecklers hellbent on belittling and embarrassing another fan. Think about that for a minute.

Kelly - Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15 2015 11:37:21am
I saw the responses Bookdal posted here, in which she accused fans criticizing her of exercising an "agenda." *Bookdal* exercises an agenda, and it's clear what that agenda is from the fans she chooses to align herself with. It was also clear from her meltdown following the picture Jensen Ackles posted of himself and his *friend*. Bookdal's own (wincest-tinhat) agenda meant that she interpreted Jensen's actions as more than him simply tweeting a picture of himself and his friend (because that's what this was – Jensen posting a picture of himself and his friend), and also that she thoroughly resented how Destiel fans might interpret the picture. How Destiel fans might see the picture is up to them. Bookdal claims the right to interpret the show how she wants to – well Destiel fans are also entitled to squee over their interpretation. Like the person above (assuming his/her comment hasn't already deleted) I am disappointed that WFB is defending Bookdal instead of requesting that she actually apologizes for inciting fans to harass one of the stars of this show. I am disappointed that WFB seems to be exercising an agenda in deleting comments here and I think it is disingenuous to try to disassociate this site from Bookdal's agenda. I'm attending this con. Assuming Paul Booth doesn't act on the email I sent him about Bookdal, I will take great pleasure in standing up during her panel and asking her to explain the tweets she made about Jensen.

Marie - Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15 2015 8:09:55am
Dear Bookdal: when you tweeted this about Jensen Ackles on your twitter: Fandom, you know what to do. Ask him all the questions and make them specific and uncomfortably sexual. Do it. Were you tweeting that as a 'scholar"? I'll tell you what you were doing it as. A spiteful, peeved tinhatter just like kelios and all of your other friends on twitter whose sense of entitlement is so far up in the stratosphere you think you can tweet hate about Jensen posting a picture of himself and his friend on his own twitter. As well as claiming that your comments about this show and its actors are "scholarly", one of your hypocritical, evasive responses here (since deleted, as I'm sure this will be) siad this: My twitter posts are mine Guess what? Jensen's are his. And just because he doesn't fit into your tinhatting doesn't mean you get to incite sexual harassment of him. I'll be addressing my concerns with DePaul University and the organizers of this event. WFB, I've read here for a long time. But I'm ashamed of you all for covering up what this person has done.

Marie - Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15 2015 8:14:02am
By the way, just because you deleted your disgraceful response to Jensen's picture with Misha doesn't mean they aren't all over Tumblr. That's where I saw them. That's also where I saw your responses here, which also have been deleted. It reflects so badly on this place that you would protect this person.

Marie - Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15 2015 8:00:21am
I'm sorry but the WFB doesn't allow attacks on anyone by anyone. Oh rhly? Except for Bookdal? She gets to attack other fans of the show, she gets to participate in insulting the writers and insulting Misha Collins, she gets to ask her friends to sexually harass Jensen Ackles? What a bunch of hypocrites.

dashnjo - Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15 2015 1:04:04am
I do get where you are coming from I do, and this event sounds wonderful and I'm glad you and others get to be a part of it, I really am. My only concern is that one of the mods on this site has tried to incite people to humiliate Jensen because he dared to post a picture of he and a friend, a friend that she doesn't like (I don't agree but different strokes) and that was petty and vindictive. I used to trust that the mods on the site were being fair to everyone and keeping the attacks at bay no matter whether it was against Sam, Dean or Cas (or Jared, Jensen and Misha) and it's reasonable for me and others to maybe not trust completely that that's the case. I just don't see how her words on Twitter can be considered as separate from WFB ... she can not like Cas/Misha as that's her right and I do appreciate different viewpoints but that whole "let's humiliate Jensen because he's friends with Misha" thing was so over the top it blows my mind. How can you defend that? I know this will be deleted and that's fine. I don't care that she hates Cas/Misha (like I said, that's her own opinion) so much as that behavior which if I'm not mistaken this very site has published articles about how attacking the actors/producers/writers/wives is wrong but is now defending her because it's separate. It's not, with all due respect. This site is one of the first I discovered after falling for SPN and I'm sad to go because I have thoroughly enjoyed what the other mods have had to say even if I haven't fully agreed with them, but I've taken that all in stride. It's just not the same to me anymore ... I spent the entire panel with J2 at SeaCon afraid of someone asking Jensen a humiliating question because of that and someone did try and bust Misha for a photo he retweeted without really looking at the whole thing, which Rob pointed out to him and he promptly deleted and I was so happy Jensen didn't really react except to say "good manip, but it's not me" and then drop it. Good man, don't take the bait! I'm trying to be as respectful as possible but if you want us to respect the site, then what someone does outside of the site matters ... especially if they represent you.

Mae - Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14 2015 11:44:44pm
Oh, come on. We all can read too. Nothing Bookdal said was a true call to arms. She was not rallying any troops to go after anyone with pitchforks. And it is actually silly that you are making it sound like she was. I stand by my belief that your "noble tattle-tailing" is pure simple bullying.

angelicone - Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14 2015 11:13:59pm
Some of the comments deleted did not have any attacks so that is confusing here. Sending objections to Dr. Booth and others involved with this may be a wise course of action.

Sharon - Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14 2015 9:29:46pm
Why is Bookdal representing WFB at this conference? She recently tweeted encouraging her twitter followers to publicly embarrass Jensen Ackles by asking him sexually explicit questions at one of the recent Creation cons. And why is she going to discuss meta? She hates any meta that isn't her own longwinded and barely readable Wincest garbage.

That's all I have on record. If your message is missing my apologies. Feel free to repost your thoughts here.
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Anon
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Lets be clear, this is not about shipping, or bias, or vitriol, or silencing or censoring Bookdal as a fan, or an academic - I frequently agree with her critique and analysis and often enjoy her posts. I don't care what she ships or how she expresses her fannishness, she freely admits her 'bias' in that. We ALL have bias in how we fan, and the nature of fanning is rooted in emotion. I've no doubt we've all had emotional reactions and outbursts from time to time. blurting out exasperation and disgust, just as we do our squee. But this was more than an emotional outburst.

All I need to know is how I would feel (since I don't presume to know what Jensen would) if I was the subject of those tweets advocating and inciting harassment upon myself, knowing that the person who made them was a key participant at an event that celebrated something which I'd poured my life into for a decade - someone who, while even though they may have stated those sentiments in the heat of the moment, has neither retracted and indeed still defends the right to make them, and those actions are in turn defended by the promoters of the event.

In the very least, I doubt I would be lining up for a ticket.
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Guest
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Edited by Alice - I have removed this thread by request and out of respect to Emily. She has endured way too much already and she is not the topic of this discussion. Any further posts mentioning her incident will be removed.
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It'd be keen if people stopped trying to make this about me, thanks. This isn't Me Vs. Bookdal. Alice, Linda, you're welcome to IP check this for the crowd. I am not a part of this discussion, and haven't been. If I hop into this anywhere, I'll sign it.

Until then, what happened to me in ChiCon and this discussion about Bookdal's behavior are entirely different matters and I do not particularly care to be used as the excuse for her, or as a distraction from the topic you set in this discussion board on your website. I've been discussed enough in online anonymous community boards, and allowing this website to turn into another Goss or AnonHaven seems counter whatever you are attempting to accomplish here.
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Guest
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(Edited by Alice - We have a policy here. If the poster wants their posts removed from the WFB, I honor such requests. So sorry, your screen cap cannot stay. I'll leave your comments though).

This response is just not believable to me. Sorry.

Bookdal, you tweeted something really disgusting. In reaction to an actor you don't know and who doesn't know you tweeting a picture of himself and his friend.

You clearly have no understanding of what you did and how over the top your anger was. Instead you accuse someone who made a perfectly reasonable post of "verbal violence." Someone on here already said that it is actually your tweets that are the "verbal violence" in all of this. I agree with them.
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Chele
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Thank you for reposting this above Alice. I'm going to post my reply to Bookdal here from the previous thread since it's still missing and I'm still a little taken aback at Bookdal's response. Since this is all being discussed here, I would like it to all be compiled and officially recorded here. I originally said:
Chele -

Is the Bookdal participating in the Meta panel the same Bookdal that encouraged fans to ask Jensen questions of a sexually explicit nature in response to him tweeting a photo with Misha Collins, to "punish" him and "shippers" at Vegas Con? Threats which, as far as I understand, the Creation Con staff acted on? I wanted to ask here to confirm and avoid confusion before voicing my concerns to Dr. Booth and the Department Head. These are some of the tweets I'm referring to, from March, widely circulating online and have since been deleted:


Bookdal responded by asking if I was "happy now" that I posted the tweets in question, and called me "verbally violent," a stalker, a bully, abusive, and claimed I was trying to censor her and if I wanted to victimize someone then she was willing to offer herself up to me. I was unable to save her response before it was deleted, but if anyone has it I would appreciate if you could send it to me or post it for these records. My response to Bookdal's reply in that thread was this:

I see my comment has been deleted as well as Bookdal's response. I did see it before it was deleted so I'm responding nonetheless and I will make a record. I sincerely did not mean it as an attack though I've now been accused of that and more.

I posted the link to those tweets because having source evidence is important. I'm sure an academic like Bookdal would agree with this, especially when we're talking about a sensitive matter like verbal or violent threats. The archive of those tweets came from a post circulated by thousands of people which I saw and remembered when I was forwarded a link to this event, not from me stalking Bookdal's "timeline" as she accused. I think the post was made in an effort to alert Creation Con to the threats against Jensen and it was that evidence that prompted Creation's public response. It wasn't an effort to shame or victimize Bookdal like she also accused but to provide the evidence of what I was questioning. Beyond Bookdal's calls to "punish Jensen" and other derogatory comments of hers I've seen through posts like the one I pulled those tweets from, I know nothing about Bookdal and was wondering if it was the same person and if the event and Winchester Family Business knew of this incident. That's why I asked and why I posted that archive with my questions.

What I got in response was being called a stalker, a bully, verbally abusive and attempting to "silence her". The justification for encouraging fans to sexually harass (verbally) Jensen was that it was not sent directly to him and that she can have her own opinion about fandom. The opinion being that an actor tweeted a picture of himself with another actorwhich she perceived as "shippy" and became justification for advocating sexual harassment against a stranger. For providing evidence of comments she made herself, for bringing to light the threats she issued herself, that makes me a bully and "verbally violent"? (The words in quotes are hers.)

All this has done is negatively change my opinion of this event and Winchester Family Business, if this is the kind of response that represents you professionally. In addition to the over the top response from Bookdal, twisting it to play herself the victim in a situation she created, reinforces to me that bringing this to the attention of the organizers and participants is necessary since these were apparently not isolated incidents. I hope her response does not reflect the tone of your event or your website.

Thank you for your time.


Thank you again Alice for your response to this in the previous thread.
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cheryl42
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I posted this on the original thread and it got deleted with the rest of the comments, but what is it that is actually being demanded of the WFB? This isn't their panel, they have no power to invite or uninvite anyone. So what is it that you want Alice to do? Take up your cause? Join in a campaign that she never knew existed before now and champion a group of disgruntled fans? It seems to me that you should be taking your concerns to the organizers of the event not bringing to a fan site that was totally unaware of the fight until a few days ago.
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Sharon
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There is alot of taking the moral high ground when nobody in the fandom can take that position. Any idea that Bookdal's tweet would threaten Jensen in anyway is beyond belief , do not like what someone says is fine but to take it to the extremes that has gone is coming across as a disproportionate reaction.
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Anonymous
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It's a freaking tv show. People who aren't involved in the fandom think this stuff is absolutely ridiculous. I have to agree. All of it. All sides.
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SP
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Bookdal made tweets telling people to publicly humiliate Jensen for taking a picture with his friend and coworker. She backs that up herself and is defending it.

And there are people in the comments here that are saying that is an excusable reaction because yea, they thought it was a nod to a ship too. Really? Really? Why is no one saying: Hey everyone, a reaction of betrayal and anger and revenge to a person tweeting a picture maybe isn't the most rational way to react in this situation?

What it comes down to is what it always comes down to, especially in this fandom. It's all about knowing the right people. If Bookdal didn't write for this site or was an outspoken shipper, you can bet we'd be reading articles about fans overstepping boundaries, losing touch with reality and harassing actors. This is a shining example of what is wrong with this fandom. Not about pointing fingers at one side or another, but taking responsibility for things you've said and standing up against insane reactions like this, no matter who that person is, who she's friends with, or how she can make you look good. But as long as you know the right people, you can say whatever you want without not only consequence but without disapproval from people who could actually make a difference. Nice.
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Brina
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Good gosh this fandom is out of control. Do you know what would help? Stop stalking people's twitter accounts. Let people be excited for what makes them happy, and to vent about what pisses them off. If they aren't tagging anyone specific then leave them alone. This sense of entitlement is OTT and bizarre and makes us look like absolute whackos to people in the real world.

And my biggest pet peeve....STOP taking this crap to people outside of fandom (and yes, the actors and writers are outside the fandom). When a producer deletes his twitter account because people kept coming at him or when a fan gets kicked out of a con for comments twisted out of context and framed as a threat you know we have a problem. When those same people who (understandably) stood behind the fan who was previously wronged try to get another person banned from an event for....well you get the picture. Suddenly it's no longer about doing what's right and switches to bullying (yup I said the word) and grudge wanking.

If you don't "like" bookdal don't follow her or read her articles. That is the only option. Remember, you don't actually know her and are judging her based on a very small part if who she is.
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Mary
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I wanted to repost this so it wasn't hidden in the comments higher up (I saw someone else had done that so her comment wouldn't get lost).

This whole OP is so biased it's laughable.

You start out claiming to be non-judgemental, and saying you don't know what bookdal did or why. You topload this statement with tributes from fans extolling Bookdal's virtues, and with a (really unbelievably condescending) statement from Bookdal herself. But you do know what she did, and why – because screencaps of her tweets were posted on the other article, and fans who posted there described what she did and why. And you don't mind being extremely judgemental about fans who are disgusted by those tweets.

Lesson: It is not "vitriolic" to be disgusted by tweets encouraging people to embarrass Jensen with explicitly sexual questions.

Lesson: It is vitriolic to post tweets encouraging people to embarrass Jensen with explicitly sexual questions simply because he tweeted a picture of himself and Misha, and that doesn't suit your own shipping bias, and God forbid that D/c fans should have something to squee about.

Bookdal: your response to Jensen's tweet was not "scholarly." So please don't claim to conduct yourself in a "scholarly" manner in fandom, because we all know how you conduct yourself, and with whom you align yourself. Many of us have unfollowed you on twitter because of it.

I was interested to find this article here at WFB: http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/article-archives/lets-discuss/17774-lets-discuss-when-the-supernatural-fandom-crosses-lines#!kmt-start=40

Here are some points from it:

Here are examples of "crossing lines" that we admins have seen online in just the last week, both on this site and others:

• Tweeting hate/plot demands to the writers/producers/crew members.
• Fan campaigns making constant demands of TPTB, even if that group does not necessarily represent popular opinion (it never does).
• Expecting the show to owe you something because you are a loyal viewer. For example, "You have to listen to us fans, we're People's Choice Award winners!" Remember fans, we voted for ourselves.
• Threatening harm to anyone on the show or yourself because of an episode/plot twist.
• Sending hateful messages to wives/girlfriends of actors just because they are with your favorite star.
• Bullying other members of the fandom because they don't support your POV or ship.
• THIS JUST IN TODAY - found on tumblr. I hate Misha Collins day? Really? What did Misha ever do to you? He builds shelters and repairs homes in Haiti for Chuck's sake! He helps people!


BOOKDAL aligns herself with fans who do all of this. Of course they're brofans, so let's just sweep it under the rug.

How about this:

There's also a couple con specific ones that came up in Vegas:

• Asking extremely inappropriate questions.
• Thinking that just because you pay money for these cons, the actors are there to be your personal playthings (this is mostly a photo ops issue).
• Dissing one actor in front of another. They're all friends people, and don't take kindly to that behavior.

Geez, we think it's time for a 'Supernatural' reality check.


BOOKDAL aligns herself with fans who do all of this. Of course they're brofans, so let's just sweep it under the rug.

You know what? It's people who handwave what Bookdal did (like this OP), and her little band of bronlies on twitter who need the reality check.

Something else from that older article I quoted, about the actors: "They owe us nothing."

Jensen Ackles certainly owes Bookdal nothing.
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Sissela Uisk
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I'm sorry for the double posting of this! There are two ways to respond in this comment field, and I realized too late that it would be better to post a "reply" if I want people to read it without having to click "load more comments", or be able to respond to it. In my first comment I asked you to quote some of the reasonable concerns you've received. Because with the quotes you've chosen and everything you write in your open letter, you do come down heavily on one side of the conflict. That's understandable as you know bookdal personally, but you're not describing our concerns fairly in your article, and since you decided not to publish the comments you received on the Dr Booth interview page, there's only your description above to go by. You did quote a few of the concerns in a comment later, and thank you for that, but it doesn't much change the general impression that your open letter makes. It would be more balanced if you included an equal number of (fairly selected) quotes from the people questioning bookdal in your article.

Has bookdal made a public statement clarifying what she meant by her tweet? Because as I said in my original comment, I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. I've seen some comments defending her with how it's obvious she didn't mean this or that, but I can't know what she meant and neither can the commenters. We only know what she actually wrote. I don't have an agenda or a grudge, I'm not engaging in a ship war, I'm not out to get bookdal. But she's been invited as a panelist at an academic Supernatural conference. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask questions about how suitable that is.

And while it's easy to feel fed up with the fractioning of the fandom and just want to ignore it, in light of events such as Chicon when Emily Rose was thrown out, which I'm only bringing up here because it shows that these things do have real world consequences; this is the reality that we have to deal with. The fandom IS fractured. People HAVE to take this into consideration, for instance when making decisions about whether or not to attend a conference. It's reasonable for Destiel shippers to ask if this event is organized by Destiel/Cas/Misha haters, and if Destiel shippers would feel unwelcome.

Regarding that concern I feel a little better since you mentioned that several WFB collaborators have been Destiel shippers (although is it a correct interpretation that you have none attached currently? Not that you're obliged to, I just want to get the information correctly).

I have tried very hard to be honest, open and conciliatory in this comment, without making assumptions, building strawmen or making personal attacks. I ask everybody to please read my words in the same spirit and try to respond with reason, perspective and respect.
  1. more than a month ago
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  3. # 36
Guest
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Responding to a couple of points I've seen repeated in the comments -

1) All Jensen did was tweet a picture of himself with a friend.
When I first saw the picture, I assumed it was an inside joke and didn't expect the fandom on either side to take it so seriously. It appeared to be a joke because there was an obvious gay context to it and both Jensen and Misha have made it clear that's not what their relationship is about. I'm not sure if it was Misha or Jensen who put the phrase "manly moment" with it, but that phrase seemed to confirm that they were intentionally making a joke. Why would this be controversial? Because of the ugliness in the fandom when the show said Destiel was not happening, and the accusations of "queerbaiting" that followed. After Jensen denounced any possibility of Dean and Cas becoming a couple, Jensen and Misha appeared to be intentionally stoking the flames. While I don't think the tweets were an appropriate response, a negative reaction is completely understandable. Many of us are just tired of the fighting and want the show to shut down any more questions about the issue once and for all.

2) Bookdal was instigating a campaign of sexual harassment.
I have yet to read one person make a connection to actual campaign, as opposed to one tweet sent to friends in the heat of the moment, which wasn't even tagged to anyone. There may have been an unstated understanding that she wasn't being serious. In cooler moments, did Bookdal start a campaign of reaching out to people to actually organize something? If she did, I haven't heard any evidence of it. From what's been reported, there were no signs at the convention that there was a real campaign. If this was an attempt to start a campaign, it was pretty poorly planned. One would think she would have been more stealthy about it. The fact that someone reported the tweet to Creation and they may (or may not) have taken preventative action doesn't say anything about the intent behind the tweets.

3) Because Bookdal posts for the site, everything she says and does should be held up to scrutiny.
She's not an elected official, she's an opinionated blogger. This is a very high standard to put someone under, especially who hasn't even chosen a life of public office, to say they can't ever chat openly with friends. Everyone needs an outlet.

Honestly, I think the comments in the tweets were poorly chosen, but a witch hunt is so much worse.
  1. more than a month ago
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QueenLee
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Saying no side is better than another is an enormous cop out and way to ignore the issue at hand. The double standards in this fandom have never been more blatant. When Destiel fans fans so much sneeze the wrong way, they get condemned loudly and called out for it, this site included has called out Destiel fans before for misbehavior. When J2 fans cross the line though? Crickets. At most there might be a vague "We all need to get along better!!!" plea but one that is very careful not to point to any specific group unlike the Destiel shipper condemnations.

If Bookdal had shown a shred of remorse and made a sincere an apology for her disgusting tweets calling for Jensen to be sexually harassed, I don't think you would be seeing calls for her to be removed the panel. No, instead she screeches indignantly at anyone who dares bring this up, cries censorship and bullying. It's clear she deleted those tweets not because she regretted comments but because she knew she could potentially get in trouble with them. But she needn't have worried however. The fandom's double standard of looking the other way when J2/Bro fans engage is gross, entitled behavior is alive and well.
  1. more than a month ago
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Anonymous
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Except bookdal never apologized. She's still defending what she said and accusing the people bringing it up of violence and abuse.

I don't think an eye for an eye mentality is acceptable here either but from what I understand of the two incidents being compared...it's apples and oranges. The woman that was ejected from that convention was set up. People with malicious intent planned and 'capped a Dr. Horrible tweet she made, held onto it for weeks, and gave it to J2's bodyguard the weekend of the convention out of context, saying she meant ill will and he acted on it. The person above is right in saying the same people that attacked that woman are the people now defending bookdal (I'm not including WinFamBusiness in this or saying bookdal was part of that). That woman did nothing to warrant what happened to her except anger the right people.

bookdal made explicitly inflammatory statements calling for people to harass Jensen sexually and deleted them when the heat got too high. They've been put into context here (meaning, Jensen and Misha took a photo, Jensen tweeted it, bookdal and some of her friends got incredibly angry because Jensen "betrayed" her, acted hypocritically by tweeting a photo with his friend, and needed to be publicly humiliated to be punished. Does no one else realize how that sounds?). She's defended the tweets and her right to say things like that, throwing around words like bully, violence, and censoring. I agree people can say what they want on their personal accounts. But when you make threats or incite people to harass others publicly, it doesn't just go away and it should never be excused. Abuse is not free speech and people that make the threats are not the victims. bookdal said what she said, and has said nasty things in the past. Does she deserve abuse now or ever? Absolutely not. But threats are not opinions. To act like this backlash is a surprise when a lot of people are affected by real bullying in this fandom, stand up to it, and meet resistance like this...everything has a breaking point.

I honestly don't think this is about revenge. If it is it shouldn't be. I think people are just tired of the excuses and of people crying "abuse" when they're called on inflammatory things they've said. I rarely go on Twitter and made my account a new because I'm scared, and because all it became was this: people say incredibly nasty things, threaten others, stalk and harass them, and then that behaviour is hand-waved away when people start to speak against it. "She was having an off night." "He doesn't really mean it." "You take things too seriously." "She deserves it for having x opinion." The people that do these things do them often and regularly, and it's only getting worse, because no one is held responsible for what they say and they don't think they need to be. And when people try to hold them responsible for things they said themselves and defend, it's those people in the wrong, not the ones that caused the problem. Ignoring it does not help. Hand-waving and silence are permission to keep doing it and acceptance that this is how it is. I watched it happen in silence for a long time. I even did the hand-waving myself.

I'm unlogged too. You know why? I'm afraid of retaliation too. Because I used to follow all those people and talk to them. I used to look the other way because at the time, I didn't think it was so bad, and then I didn't want to get involved, because it didn't really matter, because it didn't have anything to do with me, all while they organized their what I see now were hate campaigns against fans because they shipped something or liked something they didn't, campaigns to get actors fired or actively work to exclude other fans because they didn't fit into their narrow image of what they think fandom and the show should be. So yes, I'm unlogged too, because I didn't much care until I started seeing what they said and did to that woman at that convention. How they laughed and celebrated made me realize that there are just some people in this fandom that get joy out of others' pain. That was my breaking point. I was a total idiot. It isn't innocent or playful or mistakes. It's dangerous. If they knew who I was, I'd be their next target. That's what they do. And yes, I am talking about a small group of people bookdal regularly associates with. I imagine a lot of the people here are people that have been affected by that group too.

I've gotten offtrack. I guess I needed to say that somewhere. The point is, if someone is legitimately abusing bookdal, not just calling for a response to her own inflammatory words, it's wrong. If this is for some kind of revenge, it's wrong. But I don't think that's what this is. I think it's a lot of upset people who are treated poorly and can't find help. Instead they see their abusers, the people that threaten and stalk and live their days to hurt others, get rewarded. Their behaviour gets excuses. The instigator cries victim. The bad poke and poke and when people have had enough and they burst from it, they wounded ones get the blame. There's examples of that in these replies.

If any of those kind of people are reading this, I'm sorry I never said anything. I'm sorry I thought it was just silly fandom politics. I'm sorry I didn't stand up for you when I'd see those occasional tweets on my TL. I'm sorry you will never get the validation and help you want. For all that J2 encourage us to be SPNFamily, not enough people stand up for each other and denounce behavior like threatening an actor because of some imagined personal betrayal. I realized too late or maybe just soon enough, that it's recognizing those delusions are wrong, not the ones centered in fiction that some people claim exist. I'm done standing by. This is wrong. People need to be accountable for their actions, accept the consequences and stop blaming the people who stand up for themselves and others.
  1. more than a month ago
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  3. # 39
c
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This is incredibly sad. It's pretty clear that most of the commenters' irritation isn't really about Bookdal's tweets but about punishing her for them. Claims that a con actually instilled a no-shipping-question ban because of her comments are entirely unproven. (And frankly, the onus is on the accusers to prove it. Good luck, there.)

Are we all adults here? Do we share a fandom and a show we love? Yes. Is this really and truly about sexual harassment? No.

It's about one-upping the "other side." It's about "getting even" and supposedly "fighting fire with fire." It's tit-for-tatting of the worst order. It's ugly dogpiling and trying to get someone in trouble IN NAME SPACE over fandom friction.

I hope to hell no one ever, EVER says something they regret on-line. I hope all these stones being thrown never bounce back to the throwers.

I'm so disheartened by this mob behavior. Sometimes, as a fandom, we can band together to do amazing good. This is not one of those times.

And you know what's doubly sad? I'm posting unlogged-in because I'm terrified of retaliation.
  1. more than a month ago
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t
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i guarantee that if a destieler did exactly the same thing as bookdal the same people defending this article and bookdal would be dogpiling that person. they're out there now mocking all the comments here as i type and twisting the words like they always do. i understand why all you people have had enough of this **** and i'm sorry.
  1. more than a month ago
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  3. # 41
aly
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I agree with Alice here in that I stay out of online fandom now too. But for a different reason. Mostly is that fandom situations like this are disregarded, excused and defended to the point where fandom wasn't healthy or safe for me anymore. I admit what I saw Bookdal tweet about Jensen a couple of weeks ago was the last straw for me but I'm glad Creation made a public response for VegasCon as a result of her statements.

What Bookdal did is well documented. I personally saw the tweets when she made them and keep seeing them in circulation. She deleted her tweets when people began reporting them out of fear for Jensen's safety. What happened is this and is backed up by proof which I'd be glad to send you: Jensen tweeted a picture of him and Misha, the "Taster's Choice" sunset picture as Jensen put it. Bookdal thought it was encouraging Destiel shippers in their ship, and made tweets inciting her followers to ask him "explicit" "uncomfortable" and "sexual" questions to punish him at VegasCon for posting the picture. Creation was informed by multiple sources, responded to people alerting them to her public statements and they screened all questions and increased security as a result.

I'm so upset by this. Not even by Alice's statement or anyone else's. I'm glad you're addressing it and made a stance even if I don't agree. But the excuse of "stick my head in the sand, it doesn't have anything to do with me, fandom is trying to start something, defending the person that made inflammatory and threatening remarks" is the reason I am done with Supernatural fandom. What you say in public spaces will reflect on you and anyone you associate with. If I said the things she said and my employer found out, I have no doubt I would have been fired. If my friends and family found out I would be ashamed. And if it went far enough, I'd probably be opening myself up to legal action. That's how far it's gone in fandom because of situations like this and supporting the people that do these things regularly.

What happened was sexual harassment and encouraging people to abuse Jensen because of a ship that someone hates so much that that's the first response. But hateful responses like that are defended and excused, while the people who object to it, to seeing someone who would do such a thing be supported by a community that claims to be against it, are the problem and trying to start trouble. You can get away with anything in this fandom and even be rewarded for it. I can't believe people are defending her tweets.

I try to see the good in fandom, but the vitriol, the defense of harassment against other fans and actors because someone doesn't like a character or actor or a ship makes it so hard and it's why I walked away.

It's easy to say you accept all fans and don't tolerate hate. But the words mean nothing when you turn your back and put the blame on the people with legitimate reasons to be hurt or object instead of the ones that incite it all in the first place.
  1. more than a month ago
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  3. # 42
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So, my understanding from this article is that the author won't judge bookdal for her tweets encouraging people to harass and bully one of the actors, but the author is okay judging people who took issue with bookdal's tweets.

The author states that some of the comments against bookdal go against decent human behavior, but the same argument can be made about bookdal's tweets. Trying to incite others to harass and bully someone just because they posted a picture with a friend and co-worker seems to cross the boundary of decent human behavior and becomes very fantatical.

The author also said that "We believe in the goodness in this fandom and most of all behaving like adults and practicing common courtesy." Where was bookdal's "goodness," adult behavior and "common courtesy" in her tweets advocating such vile and immature actions?

I found bookdal's tweets to be offensive and I can't believe this article both supports and defends such tweets and the encouragment of harassing and bullying of one of the actors.
  1. more than a month ago
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  3. # 43
nein
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So what you're saying is that you support encouraging harassment of Jensen at a con for posting a harmless photo. Because that's what I'm getting from this. And this is just more proof of why as Jensen fan, I have never been comfortable here. Because of support of anti-Jensen attitudes like this one.
  1. more than a month ago
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  3. # 44
Arthur
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"I'm actually more concerned about bookdal representing certain characters in a hateful light under the guise of academia."

I have to admit that this concerns me, too. And that's all I'll say on the subject.
  1. more than a month ago
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  3. # 45
Alice
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Unfortunately, I have seen this type of behavior from both sides of the fandom divide, and it's never pleasant. One fan got nearly banned from conventions forever because of it, and now this. It's a vicious back and forth attacking cycle. It will never end. We need to stop caring so much about our differing opinions. We need to stop trying to discredit each other, and respecting the fact that one side watches the show one way, and the other, another way, and that will probably never change. It's the way this fandom is. Allow each other that. We're human.


I know, that was a very sad situation. I'm glad Creation made good on it but it was too little too late. The online environment has gotten downright scary and it should have never made it's way to an actual con. I really, really hope that ends up being the only time something like that happens.
  1. more than a month ago
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  3. # 46
E
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What concerned me the most in some of the comments I read was the idea that Bookdal should be banned from the conference because of her twitter and tumblr remarks. Fans were even taking screen caps of her posts and sending them to the con organizer to try and get her banned. Well, we have a little thing here is the USA called the FIRST AMENDMENT... if you aren't American and are unfamiliar, go look it up. If you ARE American then maybe it's time for a refresher course. No one, and I mean NO ONE has the right to tell this woman what she can and cannot say on her own twitter account. And ganging up on her to try and get her booted from the convention is in fact a violation of her first amendment right to free speech. It makes the perpetrators the worst sort of hypocrites. It galls me to see so many people advocate censorship and discrimination at the drop of a hat the very second they hear something they don't like or agree with. So, censorship is OK if YOUR'E the one making the decisions about who is heard, who isn't and what they get to say? Maybe you should all go out and burn a few books while you're at it.

If you don't agree with what Bookdal is saying on her twitter, then tell her so. Don't like her rhetoric, don't read her articles, but DO NOT tell her to stop posting, DO NOT tell her what she can and cannot say and DO NOT try and get her banned from a convention by doing an end run around her constitutional rights. I mean, what the hell? Did the US become a communist state while I wasn't looking?
  1. more than a month ago
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  3. # 47
Laura
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So: you said you would reinstate the comments from people who had posted reservations about Bookdal.

You haven't.

Why not? Leaving them off here means that other commenters are making uninformed comments.

So here they are, and since this post is for the discussion of this matter, I would hope they remain here.

http://i57.tinypic.com/2w57kav.png

Here's another one:

http://i57.tinypic.com/3482iqg.jpg

Not only did Bookdal ask fans to humiliate Jensen at Vegas Con, she also felt entitled enough to say he was being a hypocrite in posting a picture of himself and his ACTUAL CLOSE FRIEND. As opposed to her and all her friends who seem to think Jensen owes them something even though they are not in fact Jensen's close friends.

What even?

a vitriolic campaign against one of our writers, Bookdal


You say you're not here to judge Bookdal but you seem perfectly okay with judging people who've had enough of her hypocrisy?

You are aware, surely, that Bookdal is one of a small group of "tinhatter" fans running a vitriolic campaign against Destiel shippers?

Please do as you said you would and reinstate the many reasonable comments pointing out that Bookdal should publicly apologize for her comments about Jensen. Because otherwise this post is slanted.
  1. more than a month ago
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  3. # 48
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