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Hello everybody.

Thought I might post my thoughts about seasons 9 and 10 in this forum; seems like a nice community, full of interesting ideas and open minded people (yes, I know it should be a given, but you must be prepared for Everything on the Internet) and I guessed I should speak my mind on what I perceive is a great show currently headed towards oblivion.

I´ve been a fan of Supernatural since 2005, but I´m not into fan fiction (guess I needed to clear that out). The premise of the show captivated me from the beginning; the idea that Every main supernatural belief comes alive and has been interacting with civilization since the dawn of man is a simple, yet exciting, rich and interesting one, in my opinion. However, as the characters evolved, so did my perception. Suddenly, it wasn´t Just about the ghosts and the demons. The supernatural dish, as with every other great thing in life, is complicated: it mixes brotherly love, with great acting chemistry, with a little occult vibe, with very special characters, and with a sexy yet morbid atmosphere, all seasoned with some rock music. It is a special one. I longed to see Sam and Dean every week, going from motel to motel, investigating strange murders, killing gods, angels and fae, then eating a burger, and finally driving that car into the night.

Now, don´t get me wrong, I understand that shows must evolve over time, but...what happened? Seriously, what happened? I just can´t find an answer, and that saddens me. I think Kripke did a good job, and Gamble also delivered (although I would have featured the Leviathans in a more Lovecraftian and less businessmen way); hell, I even liked the first Carver season. However, my thinking now is that Spn has become a parody of itself. Is that my answer to the question? Maybe. It definitely has something to do with it. Maybe nothing happened and I´ve just become too old. But I seriously doubt that. I sincerely believe they (the writers) perceive the spn audience as something different than what it really is. Of course I could be wrong, and they have apparently good ratings after all. But I can see plenty of flaws right now, allow me to express a few of them: I think Castiel is becoming some sort of fan service fetish. Nobody kills Crowley, even when they got perfect chances to do so. Introducing characters like Charlie is fine, but I´m kind of tired of the whole topic (they use the "look how pitiful this character is compared to the boys" topic too much). Speaking of which, I´m sick and tired of them featuring the same characters over and over (I feel confident that this isn´t the last we have seen of Garth, Jody, Charlie, Ellen...). They keep using the same old angels and demons. Admittedly, some of this issues have been going on since way back than season 9. But Season 9 and 10, in particular, feel so much like a soap opera, in my mind. The show features all kinds of magical stuff, but the magic , or at least some of the magic, at its heart, is lost.

If you have been reading up until now, thank you. I want to hear your input on the matter, so please, by all means feel free to answer.
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the ONLY seasons i actually enjoyed was Season 1, im sorry but the fact that EVERYTHING take a human vessel is dumb, im assuming budget cuts were in place after season 1 or 2, werewolves look like morons in werewolf form, really ??? come on what happened to the good old days when monsters actually looked like monsters ( wendigo, shtriga, rawhead)
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Dion7
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I think that what I would like to see most in the series is for Sam and Dean to get close to some people. Like Alice said in several reviews, they seem to just be going through the motions. In the earlier seasons they had Ellen, Jo and Bobby. And some less important characters that they at least had a (reasonably) good relationship with, like Rufus and Ash. I don't like it when they fight monsters just for the sake of fighting monsters. They seem to be at their best when have people to care about who's lives matter to them.

I agree completely with eilf, there is no weight to the deaths of the characters that get killed. Sometimes the characters are interesting but get killed before they can really make an impact on the series and sometimes they are just one dimensional character who I forget as soon as they're dead. I don't necessarily mind if interesting characters are killed, but their death needs to mean something big to Sam and Dean.

Maybe if Sam and Dean find some people they actually care about, it will give them a new purpose.
Also, not just Sam and Dean, but most of the characters seem to have stopped caring about people all together. Do you remember the first time they killed a demon, Bobby warned them that there was an innocent person inside. They stopped caring about that really quickly, though I suppose that's not an issue of season 9 and 10 exclusively.

On the whole, I do like season 10 a lot more than season 9. The brothers seem to be less at each other's throats now and spend more time talking to each other. In the coming episodes I would like to see a better action/drama ratio, to make it seem less like a soap opera. Especially the first few episodes of season 10 did that well, with demon Dean.
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Eilf, I think it is you? Weird that we can't reply unless we are not logged. :D

But yeah, you are right. I don't see Hannah coming back because she made a choice about the vessels and I like if she keeps to it. I think I saw little bit Ellen in Tara. I mean we don't know if she has a family only her past with John. If she would have survived (I look at you show) maybe she would have grown even more for us. Like I said. I like physically strong women too that is why I liked Tara. You would have believed her to be as strong as men physically.

I really did love Gadreel. I mean he killed Kevin but in the end I really wish he would have made it up by helping Winchesters and let Sam beat him up a bit before that. And he would have been good contrast with his black car and black clothes for Castiel. And yes, his bitch face to Metatron also counts.

Ellen and Jo and Ash got wasted and I wish they hadn't been. Loved them all. And Kevin. I mean I loved that the brothers had him in the bunker. And he was killed... I mean if they want the brothers to interact and have people in their lives. -STOP killing them off- ffs. :D

I mean I have no objection for Cas living in the bunker. They can keep their own space and such. I mean they are "family" already because all that they have fought for. Anyway, season 10 gripe is Cain was killed on this subject. But I guess most have stayed alive this season. Even old acquaintances.

- Lilah
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eilf
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I think SPN's major problem at the moment* is that they keep killing off the more interesting characters they create. It is entirely ridiculous how many characters they kill off.

(It is also ridiculous which characters they chose to not kill off from a show/story perspective though I understand it from an advertising perspective, I guess, though there isn't always much evidence that the majority of viewers like the characters as they appear in-canon)

It wouldn't be so bad if there were any weight to the deaths of these people but there often isn't.

Bobby's death was the last one where both brothers behaved like people in mourning, and BOTH were given the opportunity to. We got to see how similar they are and how different by their reactions.

However, since then the lack of weight and importance of the deaths have become more and more absurd:

Castiel: Personally I never for one minute believed they weren't going to bring him back because the 'death' really would have been an anticlimax - being filled with Leviathans kills Cas - well that's a bummer, moving on ....

Sara. What on earth was the point of that? She was an awesome character in season one and was brought back to be killed. (I think she may have been the second last person to have a personal conversation with Sam - taking an interest in Sam - so of course they discussed Sam's hair). I mean if they remembered AT ALL when she was murdered horribly, that Sam had bee very fond of this girl, and that she had a 1year old baby, after Crowley was captured that might have been something, but they have never mentioned it since and now there is some sort of buddy relationship between Sam and Crowley? How does that work? Why isn't Crowley dead yet? Sara's death pisses me off more than all the rest put together.

Kevin yes that was very moving at the time, but since it apparently was only a problem / loss for Dean and something Sam has no reason for being upset (with Dean) about, the purpose of that death has gotten sort of confused as a piece of logic. Dean mourned and felt guilty, Sam ... did something else, who knows? Then Kevin came back and told them both off for having any feelings at all about his death and went home with his mum. What?

Hannah: Ah another female on SPN. Hannah was a potentially great character. She was just getting interesting when they killed her.

Naomi: "We have Amanda Tapping and we don't really know what to do with her on the show!" "Well stick a drill through her head and move on." "ok"

Edited to add: Tessa; a death so completely requiring the rewriting of canon that I actually forgot about it altogether ..

Abbadon and Cain: well we hardly knew ya, but it was great while it lasted!

Grandpa Winchester: three quarters of an episode and the most ENTIRELY unnecessary death in the history of the show. There was no reason for him to die, and while him being on the show would have messed with the dynamic a bit, he wouldn't have skewed it nearly as much as Samuel or John Winchester did/would have (and they were better realized characters with more heft). One more episode and maybe his entire interaction on a personal level with Sam - all one conversation of it - needn't have ended up on the cutting room floor.

Meg: way to go guys, Meg has been more on your side than Crowley (to pick at random a demon you are suddenly mates with) and you are just going to drive off and leave her fend for herself... actually that is the most believable death of the bunch, but it really isn't cricket to watch (through the rear window as you drive away) the death of an erstwhile ally with no attempt to help. Bad form! (sorry, got an attack of Agatha Christie there for a minute)

Gadreel: *cries at the waste*.... so much complexity, so much history, so much he could add to the Cain storyline having basically been there (or having jailers who could tell him gossip). So much apologies he owed to one SW which could have led to friendship and trips to the pub to drown their sorrows (or to a coffee bar with (gentle) smiting of hipsters when they get too annoying). SUCH epic 'done with your shit' looks at Metatron.... Gadreel and Naomi, lost opportunities both!

Who am I forgetting? Jody is still alive, and for this we should all be praising some god of tv or other! Aaron and his Golem too, A4 (though we have had enough teenagers this season), Donna. But seriously Show, introduce characters, allow them to develop, let people have learning experiences that change them as people and not just as ways to make a point to the main character. Ellen and Jo are still much missed (well, by me, anyway), Missouri had potential. SPN is supposed to be a show about humans dealing with the supernatural ... at the moment that's basically Sam ... there are 7 billion people on the planet - can you not find a few to help him out? And not die ...

Supernatural: the only show where the sentence 'Well everyone is dead except Death" actually might make sense.

*ok their OTHER major problem, I think my opinion on their major major problem has been fairly well described :-)
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As someone who watched the last nine seasons within the last two months, (my roommate and I didn't exactly binge watch because we have lives, but it was close) I have to say that I enjoy the "filler" episodes. Episodes like the ones that involve the Ghostfacers, or "The French Mistake" or "Sam, Interrupted" or where they mention Supernatural as a fandom bring a lightheartedness to the show. I want an episode where Sam and/or Dean and/or Cas gets turned into a girl (Gabriel anyone?). My roommate and I are trying to develop our own rules for a SPN drinking game where we drink when bad stuff happens to our boys, and her boyfriend (who also watches the show) says how we would be drunk after three episodes. The "filler" episodes are a way to just laugh before something comes along that will inevitably make you cry.

Um that's all I guess......
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A bit too many filler episodes I felt so far but I'm glad next week is back on track. I'm SO excited!
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Alice
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I'm with you Ginger. Bottom line is they brought in a writing team that's there more to further their careers than honor the spirit of the show that Kripke created. They have no respect for continuity, strong characterization or telling a story that isn't stretched to serve their "great" idea. Singer has stopped caring, and Carver is being tracked for new "development" opportunities at Warner Brothers so he doesn't care either. Anyone who thought this whole slow burn plan was a good idea obviously just doesn't have a passion for the job anymore or forgot what kind of show they're writing for. I wish Kripke would come back actually angry about what his show has been turned into, but I know he won't. He has moved on. I so envy him.

I too feel betrayed. And it doesn't matter, because I'm not part of their target audience. I don't even own season 9 on DVD or iTunes and the way it's keeping up I won't have season 10 either. For me, it stopped at 8.
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Ginger
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Your comment,
Supernatural has become a parody of itself" just nails it for me. What stuns me the most is that the writers have totally forgotten this is a sci-fi show! The complexity isn't there anymore. The dialogue, the writing, everything has been dumbed down...


I'm not stunned, so much as disgusted that the network is "It's running purely on the goodwill of the [long-term] fans," while it makes a push for the 14-15 year old female market. I find that pretty obvious in how the show has turned from the really unique, gritty, dark drama into a campy childish show. Everything has been turned upon itself in this push; the characterization of the two leads, the dialogue, the endless monologuing to explain what is going on, the dumbed down stories, the dumbed down Winchesters, hunting is made fun of - made out to be something anybody idiot off the street can do -- and the entire premise of the show has been thrown out. The Winchesters no longer deal with hunting evil to save people from their tragic lives; they wallow in the angst and issues. Good tension has been replaced with "Oh, wow" moments. Stories aren't told; scenes are strung together to get through an episode.

I said this on Far Away Eyes latest article, but I'll repeat it here as just one example of what I mean. I don't think that Oz or children's fairy tales belong or should be brought into the SPNverse as something real. Bedtime Stories was a good episode, a hard to pull off concept (especially with a low budget at the time) but the fairy tales in that episode were not incorporated as part of the SPNverse. In that case, the woman was in a coma and changing reality because she was being read fairy tales to by her father. It wasn't the fairy tales themselves that were made out to be a reality -- it was her making them real. That I like, because it is imagination at play. With both Oz and Hansel and Gretel, the tale itself has been made real; has been made a part of the SPN world, adding to the current tendency towards the campiness being brought to the show by the writers, and that is not something that I like or want them to revisit.

The important point about this is that the stories now require no imagination -- just read a little of the worst fanfic, write a script in a couple of days, give a positive (laughable) interview about how cool the episode is going to be, and that's all the effort required.

I really do not want to hear another person connected to this show say how much they value "the fans." I have heard about "families" who use other family members for financial gain or fight over money in the estate. The net is using the loyal fans, hoping to capture a young audience that will become viewers of whatever spin-off they might come up with. It is disrespectful, and no amount of false platitudes make up for what is being done on-screen.

After nine and a half years of seeing every live airing, I am still invested in the two Winchesters, and so I watch the show, but when the show comes to an end, I won't be left with the fond memory of having enjoyed something really special and unique. I will be remembering how I was used like a piece of toilet paper.
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Hmm you have a point about the angels and demons thing, but its mostly always been that, even in subtle ways. I think we could use a monster based series, like the Leviathans but better. Maybe Purgatory, but that was unfortunately wasted, as was Eve.

Back on topic I felt the first half of season 9 was great! Even though I felt the second half wasn't as good it still was entertaining and the plot I felt was decent. As for season 10... I feel nothing is really happening. Sam is in the background whilst Dean occasionally has trouble with the Mark. Give the mark to Sam, have him go all ebil and succumb to the demon blood and maybe become king of Hell, oh and kill Crowley whilst he's at it. BAM! That would entertain me! Maybe give Sam the mark of Abel and spice things up. Something needs to happen already..
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Shante
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hi, i am a long time fan, i have been here forever. S9 and 10 had so much potential starting out in the very beginning. and then it was wasted. i dont know what happened to the show i once loved, i accept that its a different show now, i'll continue to watch it to see how it ends because i am now a long-suffering fan. ive realized that Sam is a pretty lamp, with no pov on how he feels. Dean is awesome, he can do whatever he wants to Sam and not be blamed for it. :(i own every season, i'll have season 10, i am loyal long-time suffering fan who sees nothing changing the way things are now will another year to endure of this show i use to know and love, who has a private connection to this show.
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njspnfan
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I also enjoyed S8 and the first half of S9. For me, things started to unravel in the second half of S9. Didn't mind them turning the show in to more of an ensemble show but these stories for Castiel and Crowley have been terrible, and an injustice to the characters and actors. I think it comes down to the stories they are telling are neither clever, consistent, nor compelling. Since the middle of S9, has anything really surprised anyone? The only thing that was a real surprise to me this season was when Hannah gave up her vessel. I'm not saying there needs to be a plot twist or turn at every corner but the show is in it's 10th season and needs to challenge itself and its viewing audience.

One final observation; some of the writers seem to be more known for the secondary/recurring characters they write for; Robbie Thompson - Charlie, Adam Glass - Garth).
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Anubis
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@alice

I also think seasons 6 and 7 were far from flawless, but, considering the facts (Kripke had left, the Apocalypse was over, no clear direction to go) I think Gamble did a pretty good job. Nobody understands the brothers better than Kripke, but if I have to be honest, I didn´t realize how disappointed I was that Kripke had left until I finished season 9. I enjoyed 7 and 6 very much, particularly 6 (I loved Eve, thought they killed her too soon).

Which is strange, because, judging by the comments I read in other fansites, the community consensus seemed to be that Gamble had done a poor job, and Carver a great one so far. And, as I said, I liked season 8 for the most part, which is also strange (although, must say that I felt kind of cheated, if you introduce the idea of closing the gates of Hell, you stick to that idea.) but anyways...I even find the little things distasteful. Do you guys remember the fight between Castiel and some angel against Alistair and his demon henchmen? Well, guess what...now there´s no need to get the hands dirty, because they´ve got angel-killing guns. And even though I love Crowley, every good thing has to end (someone should stick a paper with this message in Carver room´s door), and he has killed many good people. Why won´t the Winchesters kill him? Also, I can never feel like the boys are in danger anymore.

All that it´s left now are the quirky remarks and the popular culture mentions.

@SueB

Of course, a show must change over time, but it should always remain true to its roots. Before, the showrunners tended to prioritise quality over quantity. Now, it seems like the opposite to me.

@Prix68

I agree with most of what you say. For me, Bobby´s death didn´t change everything, but it was a huge blow to the series. I mean, Gamble wanted to negate precisely everything you´ve said: Bobby´s assistance to the boys, but the show clearly needed such a character, so they have been introducing new characters to fill the empty space, which obviously makes Bobby´s death lack a lot of meaning.
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Prix68
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I think, for me, the show changed with the death of Bobby. I think Sera Gamble under estimated the value of his character in the story and the real need for a character like Bobby. Bobby was a long time hunter who knew the boys since childhood, someone they felt comfortable talking to about their deeper feelings, someone who could call them out when they didn't want to face an ugly truth or give clarity to why they did what they had to do. He was a home base they could come back to when they needed to lick their wounds. Bobby was stone number one. He often asked the questions we wanted to ask. But most of all he offered comfort and understanding and he kept the brothers honest and real for me. Bobby understood the motivations of both brothers and he was able to clarify to each brother the motivations of the other and to force them to honestly face their own motivations. Now, the role that Bobby played, is done by characters who spin in and out of the brothers world and unfortunately those characters don't have the same credence or depth that Bobby had. Bobby gave us insight into the brothers as individuals and as brothers like no one else could.
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Sharon
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SPN can stay on the air as long has it likes , it is a money maker . I have watched from the begining and certainly the show I fell in love with died a long time ago and Sam with it , Carvers treatment of Sam just creeps me out esp after last season but I understand that there are those that still think the show as it all.

I have not really watched this season except for a few episodes what the show had is just not there for me anymore except Jared and Jensen. Alot of the time it feels like storytelling by numbers with very little soul.
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SueB
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I certainly understand a lot of fans frustration but I personally love the story in S9 & S10. I think there are a couple of factors that influence my viewing/favorable opinion so I'll provide those so at least you have the feedback from a different POV.

Factors:

1. Carver's 3 year arc - Carver is definitely doing the slow burn. It pisses many people off. And now that he's got a S11, he's stretching it out even further ( I think the original threads will be wound up by S11's end). The 3 year arc is, IMO, clearly getting the boys to resolve long-standing issues and move forward. Since the topic is interpersonal, the stories are as well.
Ground covered thus far:
- At this point does ANYONE think Sam wants to have a "normal life". The MoL feeds his academic nerd side (which I fully support) and when Dean took off, Sam still hunted ...alone. Except for his revenge mission during Mystery Spot, I don't think we've really had that before. When Dean went to Hell all he did was try to make a deal and then drink himself to nearly an early grave. Until Ruby came along. I just don't see Sam running - EVER - again.
- Sam may still have self-worth issues but I think he feels finally free of the demon taint. The trials purified him and although he was feeling weird while Gadreel was healing him, at this point I think Sam feels clean for the first time in his life from a physical perspective. Of course now he feels like crap because of how hard he pushed to get Dean back plus trying to figure out the right thing with Dean. But..as Castiel said, "troubled" is kind of a basic personality trait.
- Cas has let go of his need to "fix" heaven. And he's definitely ready to die rather than make another deal.
In Work:
- Sam refining his moral compass that withstands all the pressures he's under. All the interviews suggest this is a S10 plot.
- Dean is neck deep in dealing with a boat-load of issues right now. It seems obvious to me, and as implied by Robert Singer, this arc ends with Dean finding his inner hero again. I'll be thrilled if he can let go of some of his inner demons as well as the obvious ACTUAL demon repeat threat.
- Crowley appears to be tainted permanently by his human blood addiction. His story is the least connected but I think Meg was right "Crowley is ALWAYS the problem." I don't know if he's going to continue to want to hang with the boys (which it seems obvious to me he likes Sam/Dean/Cas more than his demon minions), or go back to his brutal ways.
- Cas' story is the IMO most likely to get some closure in S10 but slide into S11. Obviously they've got the grace issue but I'm not sure Heaven is fixed yet.
Bottom Line: Personally I'm anxious to see how all four stories come out. There's been definite miscues but I generally think I see a big picture at work and am enjoying the ride.

2. Misha & Mark as regulars - They've clearly expanded the story to include independent story arcs for these two characters. I certainly think "Not what I signed up for" is a valid lament but I also think that after 9 years, this was a reasonable way to keep the story going. I think the lack of connection to the Boys. It makes it hard to get into their story when it's so (theoretically) isolated. It just looks like their plots are sometimes squeezed in there. However, I think Rowena/Crowley will definitely intersect with the boys more in the back half. I think Cas will be signing backup vocals to Sam helping Dean fix the MoC problem. I do like the direction his story took by making him look at the cost to the angelic vessels. At this point I'd make Cas the patron saint of Humanity because he's really getting us. I think there's a long term plan with this development.
Bottom Line: I think Carver's long-game approach makes this transition clunky and while I'm okay with it (because it keeps SPN on my screen IMO), I understand why others are not. I expect it to get better by the end of the year.

3. Dangling Storylines - Yep, they are out there. I'm simply hopeful they will cleanup what they can. I'm not sure Heaven is really squared away. I want to know if people are still stuck in the veil after Metatron's spell. I also still think pulling a big lever (Closing the Gates of Hell) was maybe a bad idea in the first place. And oh yeah, I'm waiting for Chekov's Spear of Destiny to play an important role.

4. Recurring characters - If they bring back Ellen in ANY capacity I expect to be dancing with joy. I want Kevin back tbh.

Bottom Line: I'm a person who binged viewed S1-8. I'm still completely in love with the show and thrilled with what I've got. I firmly believe binge-viewing makes the warts and pimples look less horrible than real-time. I think that discovering the show late does not make me less of a fan than others but I can also appreciate that those who have watched for 10 years may see things differently and resent the changes. To that, I would simply say that if they were not getting in new viewers, I don't think the show would stay on the air. The same 2 million watching in S3 must not be the same 2M watching in S10 (given the amount of new viewers J2 keep talking about). I think Carver & Co know that and while I'm not thrilled with some of their changes for new demographics (Kate/Claire/Krissy/Alex stories targeting a younger crowd), I understand the why of it.
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Alice
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I couldn't agree more. Your comment, "Supernatural has become a parody of itself" just nails it for me. What stuns me the most is that the writers have totally forgotten this is a sci-fi show! The complexity isn't there anymore. The dialogue, the writing, everything has been dumbed down and it's turned into the rudimentary show that at it's basic level is coasting on the fact that this show once had a great premise. It's running purely on the goodwill of the fans and it's sad. There's no desire for greatness. It feels like everyone is phoning it in for the sake of a fandom that cannot let go. I feel like as a loyal fan, I deserve a better effort.

Season nine and ten both have been unwatchable for me. I'm old fashioned. I like a clever plot. I like an overall arching story that makes sense, delivers some suspense and urgency, and dammit entertains me too! I thought that the Gamble years were more clever than the Carver years but my problem with that era was they didn't tighten up the writing. There were too many loose threads and stray plots that went nowhere. After seeing season 9 and 10, now I'm just nostalgic that the Gamble years had a plot, even if it was reckless and unfocused. I don't know how my once awesome, cutting edge and daring sci-fi drama turned into a teen oriented soap opera. It makes no sense.

Thanks for starting this topic. I hope more chime in with their opinions.
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