Stonehenge! Where the demons dwell
Where the banshees live and they do live well
Stonehenge! Where a man's a man
And the children dance to the Pipes of Pan
Yeah, I know, it was already used in season two’s “Simon Said.” But it was kind of perfect, no? Okay, no.
Anyway, when you get a midseason episode like "Into The Mystic," sometimes it’s good to just look at the forest from the trees, aka it's place in the overall scheme, because looking deep at this plot doesn’t reveal much. It wasn’t all that complex and did very little to move the overall arc forward. As a matter of fact, in its construction, the episode was rather paint by the numbers. There was a tie in to last week, which was important, and some lingering ramifications that were dealt with by the end of the hour, all bridging the standard investigation of another MOTW attack. In other words, it’s typical midseason filler.
However, the word “filler” has bad connotations, and I didn’t think “Into The Mystic” was a bad hour. No, overall it was well done. It had its moments and was a good character story, but it didn’t get me all excited about the events to come either. Aside from that the guest stars were very likeable, there were some good life’s lessons to be learned and we got resolution (sort of) to a long standing fan complaint, one that strangely didn’t need resolution. Yeah, it helps and we are grateful that you thought of us show, but the attempt didn’t resolve as much as throw things out of sorts.
The MOTW didn't have a song that caused people to die as much of a high pitched screech, one that only “the vulnerable” could hear. So, right after the bloody teaser enter our “vulnerable” Winchester of the week, a sleepless Sam. He's having trouble with Lucifer's words and hasn't left the bunker in days. But the real troubling sign, he’s cleaning his gun. We all know from season seven that’s not a good thing! Since there was a simple ghost case 15 minutes away though, they could take a little break from dealing with The Darkness and go help people. By starting the episode with Sam a remarkable thing happened, the story was told from the Sam point of view. It’s so rare to get a Sam POV, so I treasure these episodes. We also didn’t get a full hour of “woe is me” emotional wreck Sam either. He actually bonded with the people of the week. He made a friend! When asked if he was okay, he honestly answered (as we all figured, it was "no"). He even confessed to Dean the incident with Lucifer showing him things he forgot about and how much it affected him.
The guest female characters of the week were amazing and each had a unique story, sort off. Eileen survived the Banshee (Stonehenge!) attack that killed her parents as a baby because she was deaf. Or her mother's spell made her deaf. I couldn't figure out which. So, she fell into the hunting life, which happens to be a perfect parallel to Sam's origin story. Another similarity to Sam, her grandfather was a Men of Letters. It’s about freaking time that Sam and Dean finally ran into a MOL legacy. There should be tons of them out there, grandchildren of the fallen. I’d like an episode someday where Eileen gets to visit the MOL bunker and read all about her grandfather and his contributions. Heck, maybe even one of the cars in the garage was his.
Mildred on the other hand was one open minded and lively senior citizen. She knew she saw a monster kill at the senior village, which was all Sam needed to come to her, flat out tell her he and Dean weren't a FBI agents and they hunt monsters. She didn't blink an eye at the picture of the Banshee and that gave her a reason to flirt with Dean for the rest of the episode. Her reasoning for choosing Dean was absolutely the best, “I’m not much of a mountain climber anymore.” Bwah! That’s perfect. Yes, Dean was cougared for once. Mildred found herself in the middle of the whole thing helping, even setting the trap that caught the Banshee and saving Dean's life. Not bad for someone who spent her adult life in a Patsy Cline tribute band.
Because of the Sam POV, that took our attention away from the real surprise, that our “vulnerable” victim was really Dean. Unlike Sam, we hadn’t seen Dean struggling with anything too intense. Time to guess again. Mildred caught onto it, sensing that he was hurting for someone. Practically pining. “The heart wants what the heart wants.” Hmm, curious. Then there’s the end, when Sam is finally able to rest and it’s revealed that Dean is having his own sleepless nights. So how strong is this urge and connection? How heartsick is he really? If a Banshee could see it and an old lady in a senior home, then it really must be getting bad. Then there’s Dean actually telling Cassifer, but all evidence points to him underselling it there too. Actually, the show is underselling it in general.
The one big nitpick I have is Sam’s guilt. I get it, after his whole encounter with Lucifer, you better believe he should have been shaken to the guilt core. That part makes sense to me. One big question I asked in my reviews last season was what in the world drove Sam to risk the entire world just to save his brother? I was honestly thinking it was the guilt from turning away from Dean after he was free of Gadreel’s possession and then finally swallowing his pride when his brother was dying in his arms in season nine. But as Lucifer dug for the deep truth last week, turns out the tipping point was really season eight, when he hit that f***ing dog.
Is that right? I don’t blame Thompson for going there since Dabb set that precedence last week, but did have have to focus solely on that one incident? I thought that Sam already earned forgiveness from Dean in “Sacrifice” when Dean opted not to close the gates of Hell to save his brother. Sam was willing to die rather than not let Dean down again. Why is that guilt lingering? What about the guilt of telling Dean in “The Purge” that he wouldn’t save him if the circumstances were the same? Or didn’t he let him down when Metatron killed him? Was the “I lied” comment an acceptable apology? Wasn’t the driving force behind removing the Mark of Cain so that Dean wouldn’t become a demon again, the one thing they hate more than anything, because Sam couldn’t bear to go through that again? So yes, while I felt Sam’s pain over the whole Luci situation, I’m still not buying that the true reason of his sadness and pain is because he didn’t look for Dean between season seven and eight.
While I’m very much enjoying the soul searching and personal growth of Sam’s because of his remorse of letting The Darkness free, and I did love his apology, it all felt so unnecessary to me. Lucifer chided him last week for not closing the gates of Hell and letting out the Darkness, so why didn’t Sam go there? That would have had more impact to me. By going to that point in season 8, it’s almost like the writers are trying to say they screwed up. Yeah, you did, but that was so three years ago.
As for Castiel, I don’t have a lot to say about that because nothing much happened. I'm not sure why he was in the bunker and don't care just yet. We didn’t find out what happened to Crowley, which has me a bit worried, and we got one big piece of continuity, an angel was able to recognize he was Lucifer. A now dead angel. I liked watching Lucifer be carefree and enjoy the simple things, even though I know it won’t last. His interaction with Dean was inconsequential at best, but it was still fun to watch.
The Red Headed Monster
I’ve been watching the return of The X-Files and positively loving it (yes, even the first ep back). The episode that aired this past Monday reminded me of something so poignantly, Supernatural sucks at “show, don’t tell.” We really don’t understand how powerful this inner struggle is with Dean and this episode was the first real evidence. However, that evidence is primarily physical clues. There’s no deep emotional connection to what he’s feeling.
In this most recent episode of The X-Files, both Mulder and Scully FINALLY addressed their feelings of loss over their son William. Yeah, they talked about it with each other, but the real suckerpunch came when both imagined what it would have been like to raise their son. Scully’s sequence had her joyfully taking him to his first day of school, then watching in horror as he turned into an alien. Mulder visualized watching TV with him and shooting off rockets, both having a real sweet bonding moment, until he saw the horror of his son being abducted like his sister. Both these montages were emotionally and sentimentally powerful with that right amount of shock at the end for maximum impact. They also didn’t take away from the main story at all and really enhanced it.
Wouldn’t it have been cool to see a scene like this with Sam experiencing the thought of rescuing Dean in Purgatory only to have reality hit, and/or then Dean imagining sweet times with Amara before becoming her eternal slave? Something memorable to show exactly what they’re feeling. I get that isn’t easy to do with a 23 episode season, but the show often lacks those aspects of storytelling that could be better. For me, that “brotherly chat” at the end of the episode as the emotional wrap up scene is too cliché by this point in the series.
Other Thoughts
Big kudos though from me for choosing a song from Warren Zevon’s swan song album ‘The Wind” for the closing montage, "Prison Grove."
It’s a rather powerful album. He recorded it when he found out he only had months to live from lung cancer.
So Sam doesn't want to think about retirement? He thinks they might be dead before then? He's not wrong but still, kind of a downer, wasn't he? Could Dean be thinking long term because of Amara or was he just being cute? Either way, I loved Dean considering the idea.
I wish Sam did know sign language so he could blush when those ladies were signing about how hot the boys were. A comedic moment lost!
Sam has a keepsake box now? The brochure of the senior home earned a spot? Huh. I guess having a home does make a difference. I never pegged Sam to be the sentimental type. Maybe he's doing it more because he's a legacy and their history should be preserved too. Any thoughts on this?
Overall grade, oh, I waffle between a B- and C+. I’m just happy that this week’s filler remembered the overall plot, and Thompson again proves he’s awesome at dialogue. Anyone that can make a random conversation work about who is the better Golden Girl during an important conversation of exposition wins with me. BTW, it’s Rose. Betty White rules all.
Comments
I read in another review that the box is the one from Home. It looks like there are keepsakes from both brothers in there. Superwiki has a full list of items.
I have NEVER understood what the issue was with Sam not looking for Dean - he had absolutely no reason to suspect that Dean was in purgatory. Big explosion as Dick Roman explodes, then Dean *and* Castiel are gone. Why wouldn't Sam think, since Dean vanished with Cas, that he had died and gone to Heaven? There's no reason for him to think anything else - Dean died in the line of duty so Sam retired, just like Dean did with Lisa. I don't understand why the answer to why didn't Sam look was that he had no reason to think Dean was anywhere other than heaven.
Quote:
The other: How did you dare try to be happy without me?
DEAN
Quote:
DEAN You know what, man? I got this. You go.
SAM What?
DEAN Don't you have a girl to get back to?
SAM Yeah. I guess I do. Um... Since when are you on the Amelia bandwagon?
DEAN I don't know. I'm just tired of all the fighting. [He takes a beer out of the refrigerator.] And, you know, maybe I'm a little bit jealous. I could never separate myself from the job like you could. Hell, maybe it's time for at least one of us to be happy.
SAM What, you being such a big hugger and all? She does make me happy, and she could be waiting for me if I went back. I'd be a very lucky man if she was. But now... with everything staring down at us, with all that's left to be done... I don't know.
DEAN Huh.
SAM Yeah.
DEAN Well, I do know this – whatever you decide, decide. Both feet in or both feet out. Anything in between is what gets you dead.
I just want to touch on the looking/not looking thing. Which I previously said I wouldn't do because its been debated over and over by people way more articulate than me. And while I have nothing of value to contribute to the conversation that hasn't previously been said, since this episode went there I want make a request of Mr Carver.
Mr. Carver, why is Sam apologizing for your mistakes? I never blame the character for bad writing and I really wish that you would stop blaming Sam for your bad writing and your screw up. Having Sam apologize for the shitty not looking storyline is insulting. Note: we understand Sam -probably better than you do because we actually watch the show - and Sam does not owe anyone an apology. The year of the dog is on you and you alone. If you feel the need to apologize, go on ET, or Conan, or Comic Con, or social media and say I am so sorry that I screwed up so profoundly. Stop trying to incorporate your apology to the fans into Sam's POV. It's not helping.
On the bright side, IMO, Cheryl posted elsewhere on the site that Carver's new pilot was picked up by CW today. I really hope this means that SPN will have a new showrunner. Berens? Dabb? We've all been asking what's going on in the writers room, with Sam suddenly getting a POV for the first time since Carver took over...my guess is he was likely not around much, with the new show occupying much of his time this season. Bye JC. You won't be missed. At least not by me.
I'm encouraged that the writers stopped drinking solely from the vat labeled Dean Cool Aid. I think promoting Andrew Dabb to head writer this year helped (future showrunner?) For the first time in years it feels the show is about both brothers. I'm excited.
Loved both Mildred and Eileen. Loved that Sam had a conversation with someone not named Dean (although I've been loving the recent conversations between the bros). And she made it through the day in one piece. Since Eillen's a legacy, is she entitled to a key to the bunker like Sam and Dean? I really hope we see her again. Sammy, when shit hits the fan in the latter half of the season with Dean's Amara dilemma, don't call a demon for help. Reach out to Eileen instead.
The Amara storyline bores me. They need to pick it up, which I think they will do towards the latter half. We've got filler eps coming up (Jodi, the Sub, the wrestling ep, some others I'm sure) after that, I think Dean comes clean to Sam and all hell breaks loose. Sammy, please, no crossroad deals, no deals with any demon or Supernatural being of any kind. Please. I think Amara will have Dean so twisted by latter half of the season that I'm actually concerned that he will choose her. Of course he'll come to his senses, but I think Sammy will be in the big empty by then. Hope I'm wrong.
I probably worry too much. I'm sure everything will turn out fine. Right?
I think the idea was Sam taking responsibility for his part in the brothers strained relationship in seasons 8 and 9 and like it or not it, a lot of it begins at the not looking and snow balls from there. The apology in the last episode also ties into a lot of the character growth Sam's had this season. Now I am not saying Dean isn't responsible for his part in their relationship and Dean has said the not looking and the rest of it is in the past so he is over it, it just takes him a while but he says he is. But the apology itself was as much about Sam as the fans so I think it is kind of important to Sam himself said it out loud even though Dean didn't need to hear it, so Sam can grow. This season so far every time Sam says 'he' is responsible for letting Amara out compared to when Dean says 'they', and Sam says 'he' because he made a decision to go ahead and get rid of the mark even though he knew there would be consequences. But if you look at discussions about not looking, until this episode whenever someone says about Sam not looking he's always says 'we had an agreement' when he's responded and now he is saying 'he' should have looked, just like he says 'he' let out the darkness. It is a more rounded more, more in control Sam that is emerging.
Sam in season 9 was a victim of situation not of his making the strain in their relationship was a product of that .
I do not need heartfelt violin musiced scenes from either of them and esp where Sam labours again how he has let Dean down but rather just a little recgonition that it has not been just him and few lines from Dean would not hurt.
Especially when I said the whole scene was really for Sam's journey and not really about Dean.
And frankly nothing I have not expressed before .
Sam is becoming more controlled and emotionally independent of Dean , especially at point where we know Dean is connected to a big bad so we may be getting to the point where the Winchesters are in real danger again - Dean may have to risk a real death and Sam knows that is the best course of action.
In a lot of ways I think the writers have finally found their feet with giving Sam a POV. Usually it is fleeting or given as a big desperate push because he tends to have the plot device role too. Last season it seemed big and desperate because he was trying to be good enough to save Dean, but by tying it in with to the not looking now and his changing his reasoning from the agreement to 'I' should have looked it feels he has gotten past his inferiority complex that he has had before, you know when he told Bobby he was lesser than all of them or the whole speech in Scarifice to explain his actions and his dispair. Sure I get the idea that his going overboard in season 10 and tying it into the not looking may feel like a stretch for some fans but I feel a lot of the strained relationship can be traced from the reaction of both parties to that decision and the decision was Sam's even if there was an agreement.
But I do agree with Alice having a dream sequence where Sam wakes up from a sequence where even if he tried and failed to get Dean out of purgatory and that lead to them being on better terms and how Dean then didn't go on about the trials and Sam wouldn't have felt so inadequate compared to Benny and then Scarifice wouldn't have played out in the way it did, they would have gotten Metatron was playing a long con because he and Dean wouldn't have been distracted by the trials and Dean wouldn't have been so open to Gadreel then Kevin wouldn't have died and the mark wouldn't have happened etc etc.
Now I am not saying it is Sam fault all that happened, I'm not before anyone screams at me. What I'm saying it can be argued that the strained relationship between the two of them in the past three seasons caused a snowball effect that hurt a lot of people and Sam's decision not to look that was the start. The horse shoe nail so to speak. You now the rhyme
Quote:But most importantly with Sam finally putting the not just looking but everything else to bed in his head, he is putting to bed his inferiority complex and taking control of all his decisions just like when he says he let out the Darkness. He isn't dwelling on them but accepting them so he can resolve them because he isn't trying to emotionally protect himself from his choices either which I think when he used 'we had an agreement' he was in part to do.
But the other problem with the show tracing everything that's happened back to S8 is that, while you may not blame Sam, the show has framed things in a way that suggests Sam is to blame. You are correct that it's in Sam's nature to feel that he is to blame, but the fact is that the show has cast Sam's actions in a negative, blameworthy light through the words of various other characters. And what is galling about this is that, as eilf points out below, Sam can never win because he is blamed when he doesn't save Dean and when he does save Dean. It is Sam's personal Kobayashi Maru!
All of that being said, I agree that Sam has undergone some amazing and welcome character development and growth this season, and I'm loving everything about it. But I hate that the show is trying to trace it all back to an OOC, ambiguously-exp lained decision by Sam from 3 years ago.
I don't think show has framed it so the blame is on Sam. I think show has framed it so Sam feels like he should feel blame. I still think there's a bigger picture here. As much as Kripke brought up the boys' issues, he never really dealt with resolving them. We know what they are, we've seen how it's affected the boys in negative ways, but I don't think any of the boys' personal issues regarding the way they see themselves has ever been resolved. Carver was a part of those early years, and he in fact has written many an episode in which we see these issues. Then Carver leaves and when he returns ...we're 7 full seasons in and the boys are still suffering from the same issues as they were before they left...so while we've seen an awesome story with heartbreaking and amazing acts that pull us in all directions, we haven't really seen the boys' emotional growth. They both still have issues unresolved since they were children. Given Carver came off a show called being human, I saw part of his goal in telling the story to include the boys' emotional growth...but these are the Winchesters after all, so that story will have to be told in a way that makes sense for a Winchester.
Carver's way of telling the story wasn't in your face obvious for lack of better words, sometimes the story was more subtle and I think he took the more psychological/a nalytical approach in telling the story. I don't think that this story has been one sided though. I don't see one brother being blamed while the other brother sparkles like the top of the Chrysler Building.
I do agree that in Carver's attempt to be vague, he has incited fandom rage instead of going for the possible reaction he was aiming for, but he never swayed from the way he was telling his story , so my guess is because the story wasn't done yet. It's not about the tree, it's about the entire beautiful forest.
I do agree that Carver's style of the double meaning is emotionally exhausting. I will go so far as to even agree it's not necessary all the time. I also agree that bits of information rather than full disclosure is something that should be used more carefully. For instance, the pact...I understand completely the need for it, and the why it would be made but Carver using the double meaning for this, I didn't think it necessary. My guess is that if it was more definitive than we wouldn't have gotten the drama we got. It was all in the wondering, which I do think Carver takes personal pleasure in doing to the fans. JMO of course. I also think a timeline for this agreement would've been nice...but then again, perhaps if we knew the precise when the pact was formed it would've taken away from the drama that was to unfold. But I do firmly believe that the pact was worded in such a way to mean two things on purpose. As I've noted, there has never been any precedence at any moment for an agreement to be made for them to not seek ea. other out if they were simply missing...but there is way too much precedence for an agreement to be made in which they would promise not to look for a way to bring the other back. And since Carver at no time had Sam say that they made an agreement not to look when they go missing...he simply said we had an agreement not to look...and that was it...the not looking can be seen as not looking for a way to bring them back. Given their blatant history, it seems more likely that this is the true meaning of the agreement. The very fact that Carver introduced the agreement from the start, and Sam's insistence on believing Dean was dead, it makes ,at least to me that Carver was implying that the promise was not to look for a way to bring the other back.
Now all the focus is on Sam right now, but I think it's important to remember Dean here as well. I don't think show was showing how dean is always right and sam wrong at all. As a matter of fact, I actually saw Dean to be wrong in the first half of season 8. I didn't think show perceived Dean's pov to be the right one at all. I thought show actually illustrated how wrong Dean's perspective truly was...and they did that up until a little slice of kevin, when cas literally told dean...you're wrong and you only see what you want. ...I think cas was the voice of the fandom in that moment.;)
Dean spent a year in what he referred to as God's armpit, yet he appreciated it. He found a calm. Basically it wasn't as awful for him as he made sam believe it to be.
Dean befriended a monster. Dean Winchester friends with a monster. That alone is cause for alarm...that something is truly wrong with him.
Dean comes out of purgatory changed, and not for the better by the way. He's hostile, he's still in kill mode and he brought with him a monster who spent the last half a century killing on a daily basis. He not only brought purgatory out from within himself, but he brought a piece of purgatory with him through benny. Benny was part of his connection to a place where Dean became the worst part of himself.
Dean's worst part of himself isn't about the fact that he killed, it's in the fact that he found a peace in it, calm in it...something that never would've happened if he had Sam with him...because Sam keeps dean human.
Dean came out of purgatory lying and hurting people...friend s and others alike. His words, thoughts and actions were cruel and hostile. So needless to say, Dean's pov isn't a positive one nor does it come close to even being right. The man had no qualms about killing Kevin's mother...I don't see Dean as rational at this point.
As a matter of fact, I saw Dean to be irrational up to and including Southern Comfort. And that's where it all hit the fan for Sam and Sam fans alike. But if you really listened to Dean's speech, it wasn't even about Sam..it was about him. This is confirmed one week later in a little slice of kevin.
Dean accused Sam of lying...but yet it was Dean who was lying to Sam, about benny, about purgatory, about Cas
Dean accused Sam of leaving him down there for a girl...but in essence it was Dean who left Cas and it was Benny he brought out and Cas he left behind. He admits this to cas. Plus it wasn't sam who left dean in purgatory...but cas left dean in purgatory....se e the play on words...see the double meaning...left. .the word left was used...but the meaning is different...cas abandoned dean in purgatory...dea n spent all that time looking for cas and then found out that cas left him on purpose....Dean took all his anger out on Sam. Cas wasn't there for him to take his true anger out on.
Dean keeps benny from Sam. why? benny is the exception to the monster rule is he not? after all Dean and he are friends. Isn't that it though? dean being friends with a monster. is that a red flag I see?:D Dean in any other circumstance would never have become friends with a monster...and if sam came out of purgatory and brought a monster out with him...how do you suppose dean would've reacted? Would dean have understood and thought sam to be of his right mind? would he have endeared himself to sam's monster friend and trusted him....no....do you know why I know this...because it happened with ruby...a different kind of monster...but very similar like circumstances.
Yet dean, though he knew he can rely on benny in purgatory and he even might have been right that benny wouldn't kill him topside, he didn't in fact trust benny....for if he did, then he really had no reason to hide him especially from sam.
as we all know, sam is smart. sam can get a read on people. sam doesn't jump to conclusions either, he does his due diligence. When he said he might have to be the one to kill benny someday, it's because he knows that dean might not be able to...just like sam didn't have it in him to kill amy. see sam does listen and acknowledge his brother..;) Sam didn't just go after benny, he had benny watched, because really, dean hadn't been in a state of mind since he got out of purgatory where he can fully be considered rational.
Once Dean was forced to release all his pent up anger regarding his own issues and when he is absolved of is own guilt by cas, dean no longer brings up the issue of not looking again. Granted sam threatened to leave if Dean didn't move on and that had some influence, but it wasn't until after his talk with cas that we see dean in a slightly more rational state of mind.
Dean telling sam in that coin induced rampage that noted benny being more of a brother...becau se he hadn't let him down was pure fantasy. Cas had let him down leaving him alone in purgatory. Benny couldn't let dean down because if he did, he wouldn't be able to get out of purgatory...and Sam, well Sam wasn't with dean at all...he wasn't there to keep dean human. he didn't get him out, so dean had ended up becoming the worst part of himself. So yes, there was resentment towards Sam in dean...sam didn't save dean from himself:(.
We still have Benny topside. Whether you like benny or not, one needs to really see benny for what he truly is...and that's a monster who spent over half a century in purgatory killing on a daily basis and admittedly killed humans topside before that....after all benny admitted so himself. he declared himself to be a liar and admitted to not being the teddy bear (insert sarcasm there) he is today. Benny did nothing wrong in the sense that he was what he was and never really claimed to be anything but.
Dean was the one who was wrong. Dean, who friended a monster, needed to believe that benny was different. he was the exception to dean's monster rule...after all dean is his friend. dean wouldn't just pick any monster...if dean is going to be friends with a monster, he's going to find the exception....oh how dean loves to swim in the river of denial.:p Dean insisted that benny was on the up and up, yet dean would either sneak off without sam or flat out leave him behind whenever there was a problem that benny was a part of. it would've been so simple for dean to have brought sam with him in citizen fang...but dean left sam behind to see for himself what was going on because he didn't trust in benny like he claimed.. if he had sam would've gone with. and dean sending that text. that wasn't about his distrust in his brother. dean knows sam well enough to know that sam would investigate for himself. this is confirmed in taxi driver by the way, when dean had absolutely no doubt in sam getting benny out of purgatory. he didn't blink an eye...he flat out told benny you come out with...and benny replied you mean the sam that wants to kill me? dean hadn't a single doubt that his brother would save benny and he was right. so it stands to reason, that dean's trust in sam was never in question. but dean didn't fully trust in benny and he certainly didn't trust in martin and sam would've been stuck in the middle. So he got rid of sam, tried to get rid of martin and in the end.....benny ended up killing a human...who didn't have it coming, as dean tried to convince both himself and sam of. and if sam had seen martin's body...sam would've known that this wasn't just about saving his granddaughter.. ..martin's body was torn apart...benny's kill was that of a monster who spent half a century in purgatory. it was the kill of a monster and once benny taste human blood like that....there was no going back for him. if you watch the deleted scene, benny admits to killing humans.
Dean knew what he became in purgatory, and benny was symbolic of dean's fall...his friendship with benny , his need to believe in benny, and benny being his connection to purgatory....Sa m's ultimatum drove Dean to make a decision...just like dean had sam make a decision...and for dean it wasn't about benny and for sam it wasn't about Amelia. Dean had to choose who he wanted to be...did he want to be purgatory dean or did he want to be the dean he was before purgatory. Sam had to choose the hunting life or a normal life.....in the end, they not only chose ea. other, but they chose the who they wanted to be.
So basically, carver told the story of two perspectives... ..and it's not about right or wrong and it was never about who's to blame. it's about coming to terms with who they are and dealing with and crushing once and for all their inner demons.
no matter which view you take ....whether sam lied to dean about not looking and he did actually look and then quit. (which kind of makes sense in what njspnfan said when he noted that depending on the writer, sam's backstory...the imploding and running and the agreement often changed...if sam didn't tell dean the truth, then it makes sense that he couldn't keep his story straight...beca use in fact both were true.
or if you look at it the way I see it...that sam imploded and ran because of the promise he felt bound to keep. and that the promise was in fact about not looking for a way to bring them back...
whichever view you decide on the message seems to me to be the same. Sam's guilt doesn't stem from not looking, it stems from breaking...from quitting. From giving up and running away. Sam's apology was for breaking in the first place...not for not looking, because as the confession notes, he either did look and then ultimately imploded...or he instantly imploded. no matter how you slice it, sam's sees himself weak for breaking in the first place, and for giving up the fight...and not only for dean, but for kevin and all the others he read about and kept up with every time he picked up the paper. So it seems that he didn't totally give up on it....and when he was ready, he did go back to the cabin.
As for other's blaming Sam....I thought both bobby, who wasn't in a rational state of mind, given that he had spent all that time in hell being tortured on a daily basis, and meg both pointed out what dean didn' t or wasn't able to do...which was questioning sam's action to begin with. out of everything sam told meg....she questioned why he hit the dog and stopped in the first place....a good question and one that should've been asked a long time ago and by dean imho. and bobby, well he was out of his mind and he never really let sam speak...but he did make an important point ....he did note that both boys went off the rails since he's been gone....and that fact was true and that was the point....that both boys were messed up. :(
Show was never about blaming .....it's about the boys dealing with this weakness they share...this low opinion of themselves that leads them to not only misperceive how the other thinks or feels about them, but overwhelms them with such guilt that it drives them into actions that end up doing harm where it was only about doing good. Lucifer's point was that Sam's guilt is his weakness...it drives him to make decisions that include only saving his brother. Lucifer...or in this case the writers...are finally telling the fans ...look it's not sam's actions that are wrong ....its' not blame that's being put on sam....sam's own perceived guilt is his weakness...mean ing sam has no reason for such guilt. he didn't do anything wrong....look fandom...listen to luci...it's not about sam having done anything wrong...it's about sam feeling like he's done something wrong...and we're telling you all that's not nor has it ever been the case....the issue lies within Sam and it's time to deal with this issue once and for all. The guilt he feels, that he's always felt is the weakness here....and this guilt he feels needs to go....so sam is releasing this guilt by apologizing for the moment he felt it all began...for breaking and running...and for allowing himself to believe he let his brother down.....dean's response is the writer's way of saying....sam you've never disappointed me. I don't blame you, I actually never really have....and this guilt of yours needs to stop. Let it go...time to move on. ;)
Sam letting go is a major step. Not only is he no longer driven by the need to prove himself...but he sets an example for dean to follow. For dean suffers from the same exact flaw. Dean too has led a life built on guilt which drives his decisions as well and dean is certainly the king of not wanting to look weak. If Sam can let go then Dean can let go....and these issues that they've carried for so long can finally be resolved...mayb e that's what the retirement home is symbolic of. mildred spoke of the secret to a happy life...follow your heart. I think dean's heart wants to tell sam the truth..i think it's his head that's stopping him....maybe all that talk of "retiring" means retiring from all that guilt;).
just a thought. ;)
Whatever the writers think about the actions of the brothers the past few seasons, for the most part I do agree with your interpretation of the brothers' actions and motivations.
you know...differen t eyes and all. ;):)
enjoy your day....off to work I go...maybe chat later....:D
It was simply a choice not to include it because by this time the perception of Benny was sealed IMO .
It also leads me to assume that other sections of story-line that really make no sense are also the results of lopped-off stories.
Up until Citizen Fang, Benny wasn't feeding on humans. We had one scene of him watching people at a funeral and that is all but not feeding, we don't know why he was looking at them. But what we do know is that was when he was on his hunt for vengeance so that was his primary concern, killing for food would mean he may get on a hunters radar and that would stop him getting his revenge for his girlfriend. After that he was living near his great granddaughter, who he said was his reason to stay dry and Martin hadn't actually seen him feed and another vamp was in the area when people started dying.
What changed from citizen Fang and Taxi Driver, Benny had lost his family and his friend and had had no given little choice but to kill Martin to save Elizabeth because after Martin had beheaded him could he trust Martin not to hurt her after he had terrorised her? And like it or not Martin wouldn't have known about Benny if Sam hadn't brought him in, so what you can argue is that if Sam hadn't been so desperate to prove Benny was wrong that he would have stayed on the wagon.
If it can be argued from the look of Benny pre and post Citizen Fang that Citizen Fang is the point he fed - what happened? Sam introduced Martin to Benny's world and Benny lost the little support systems he had. Pre citizen Fang he had had a mission and once completed he got another reason to stay off humans because as I said if Benny had left bodies he may have attracted a hunter that would have gotten in the way of his revenge plan.
But after Martin - he had no support as he lost Dean too, and he had no mission so really what incentive did Benny have to stay on the wagon? And why was Martin in the picture - Sam wanted to show that Benny would come off the wagon.
The scene at the funeral was meant to make us wonder if Benny could stay on the wagon and the scene in Taxi Driver would have been the bookend to that. Dean knew that could happen. It was why he asked in the deleted scene, the deleted scene was removed so that Dean's (understandable ) connection to a supernatural creature who had helped him could not be judged as a bad thing. Which it actually WAS - if we accept Bobby's interpretation of Sam's actions then we have to accept his interpretation of Dean's also. Even with the scene removed we are only left not knowing if he Benny fed or not, indications in most episodes were that he had. Sam need never have known he was wrong about Benny feeding - since Benny atoned for that by staying in Purgatory. But it would have made it clearer to the viewers that he was judging this from a point of view of a HUNTER since people were so determined to see it other ways.
So if you think about it, RED FLAG....Dean hiding Benny in the first place....
The very next episode is SC, where Sam is told in oh so many words that Benny is more of a brother than Sam....Now disregarding the knife that Dean just lunged in Sam's heart, Dean also made it obvious to Sam that even if Benny turned out to be the monster Sam believed him to be, Dean wouldn't be able to kill him. He just pretty much confessed to that. If and when the time came, Dean just admitted, that he wouldn't be able to take care of Benny.... and do you know how I know this....because Dean once he got Amelia's info, Dean looked her up and got her number, for a text he was prepared to use when the time actually did come. Deep down he knew he wouldn't be able to take Benny out, and he knew it would be Sam who would...and he didnt' want Sam to be the one either....not because he didn't trust Sam, but because deep down he never trusted Benny and he feared Benny would kill his brother.
Then we get to Citizen Fang....Citizen Fang could've been the episode that laid all of Sam's doubts to rest. It was as simple as both Sam and Dean meeting up with Benny together once Martin let Sam know about the vamp kills. Yet Dean didn't bring Sam....he wanted to go on his own....why? If Benny was true blue having Sam there wouldn't have been a big deal. If Sam had gone with Dean he would've discovered the other vamp and Benny would've been absolved of Sam's doubts....and it wouldn't have taken away from Sacrifice, because Sam still had to live with the fact that Dean thought Benny to be more of a brother. But Dean went solo, machete at the ready, because he in fact did not trust that Benny didn't make those kills.
Martin of course isn't going to believe Dean, as he's defending vampires now...and Sam....well he's not really sure what to think at this point. But Martin clobbers Dean, and Sam goes with Martin to make sure Martin doesn't do anything rash....Sam insisted on taking the lead.
But Dean in his effort to either protect Benny or Sam or himself (because a confrontation with benny and Sam might learn some truths he kept from sam) sent Sam that despicable text, sending sam away from a situation that could've been avoided. So we end up with situation that looks kind of like this.
Martin, who isn't really much of a threat is ripped apart in front of Benny's granddaughter. Now if Benny was truly concerned about her, then you might think that showing his true monster colors would be what he shouldn't do. Benny could've easily have kicked martin's ass....tied him up, called dean and let dean take care of the mess. But Benny is a vampire and he did what vampires do. He killed martin in a way the most likely traumatized his granddaughter and no doubt she's not feeling the warm and fuzzies for him now. If Benny was truly the reformed vamp dean tried to get sam and himself to believe in , then benny most certainly could've handled martin in a less permanent and vicious way.
Sam, well Sam realizes that this text was sent from his brother and planned all along. Sam comes to believe that this text proves once and for all that Dean did mean what he said in SC when he told Sam that Benny meant more to him than he did.
Dean's actual doubts and distrust in Benny have him making Sam believe that Dean actually meant what he said in SC.
So if you think about it, RED FLAG....Dean hiding Benny in the first place....
The very next episode is SC, where Sam is told in oh so many words that Benny is more of a brother than Sam....Now disregarding the knife that Dean just lunged in Sam's heart, Dean also made it obvious to Sam that even if Benny turned out to be the monster Sam believed him to be, Dean wouldn't be able to kill him. He just pretty much confessed to that. If and when the time came, Dean just admitted, that he wouldn't be able to take care of Benny.... and do you know how I know this....because Dean once he got Amelia's info, Dean looked her up and got her number, for a text he was prepared to use when the time actually did come. Deep down he knew he wouldn't be able to take Benny out, and he knew it would be Sam who would...and he didnt' want Sam to be the one either....not because he didn't trust Sam, but because deep down he never trusted Benny and he feared Benny would kill his brother.
Then we get to Citizen Fang....Citizen Fang could've been the episode that laid all of Sam's doubts to rest. It was as simple as both Sam and Dean meeting up with Benny together once Martin let Sam know about the vamp kills. Yet Dean didn't bring Sam....he wanted to go on his own....why? If Benny was true blue having Sam there wouldn't have been a big deal. If Sam had gone with Dean he would've discovered the other vamp and Benny would've been absolved of Sam's doubts....and it wouldn't have taken away from Sacrifice, because Sam still had to live with the fact that Dean thought Benny to be more of a brother. But Dean went solo, machete at the ready, because he in fact did not trust that Benny didn't make those kills.
Martin of course isn't going to believe Dean, as he's defending vampires now...and Sam....well he's not really sure what to think at this point. But Martin clobbers Dean, and Sam goes with Martin to make sure Martin doesn't do anything rash....Sam insisted on taking the lead.
But Dean in his effort to either protect Benny or Sam or himself (because a confrontation with benny and Sam might learn some truths he kept from sam) sent Sam that despicable text, sending sam away from a situation that could've been avoided. So we end up with situation that looks kind of like this.
Martin, who isn't really much of a threat is ripped apart in front of Benny's granddaughter. Now if Benny was truly concerned about her, then you might think that showing his true monster colors would be what he shouldn't do. Benny could've easily have kicked martin's ass....tied him up, called dean and let dean take care of the mess. But Benny is a vampire and he did what vampires do. He killed martin in a way the most likely traumatized his granddaughter and no doubt she's not feeling the warm and fuzzies for him now. If Benny was truly the reformed vamp dean tried to get sam and himself to believe in , then benny most certainly could've handled martin in a less permanent and vicious way.
Sam, well Sam realizes that this text was sent from his brother and planned all along. Sam comes to believe that this text proves once and for all that Dean did mean what he said in SC when he told Sam that Benny meant more to him than he did.
Dean's actual doubts and distrust in Benny have him making Sam believe that Dean actually meant what he said in SC.
sorry about that.
Hell why would Dean keep Benny's bones if he knew Benny had failed to stay on blood bags? Unless he tells Sam that if Benny comes back they would have to act as proper vampire AA sponsors to give him the support he would need to stay off humans?
Actually sid I had the opposite reaction. Presumably they had already filmed the scene where Sam admitted being wrong, when they decided to delete the other scene. Yet unless there was still another deleted scene in which Dean told Sam about this (which seems unlikely) Sam had no idea that Benny had fallen off the wagon. So I think that it's Dean who would have looked bad by sitting there silently while Sam essentially apologized for misjudging Benny. And as far as why Dean buried Benny's bones even knowing that Benny had fed, well, I'd assume that was gratitude for Benny's decision to go back to Purgatory to save Sam. If I ever had the opportunity to interview Carver, I would ask him about this issue and about a thousand others.
This is the ongoing problem in the show. Sam does the right things and is described as a screwup. Why?
But keeping it in causes problems for the portrayal of both brothers as it would reinforce Dean's previous behaviour of trying to ensure everyone is safe and him taking the lead in doing so, the controlling behaviour that people here don't like as it causes Sam to chaf.
But there is more than that, now we can all agree that Benny's purpose was to be a wedge and Sam was right to get someone to keep an eye and Dean was wrong to keep Benny a secret. But take a step back and take it from Benny's view if he started hunting humans between leaving the boyou and meeting Dean in that alley - what happened? He essentially got tied up in the strained relationship between Sam and Dean and like it or not that isn't right. Now Sam may not have asked Martin to go as far as he did, you can argue the logic of going to 'talk' to Benny while carrying machetes to the cows come home but we are taking this from Benny's POV not Sam's remember. And for Benny - Martin attacked his family and Sam brought him in. And if he had met them at his camp instead of Sam running off he wouldn't have seen them as just wanting to talk but as hunters wanting to attack him considering they weren't bringing anyone who could act as an arbitor on his behalf. He has kind of gotten Sam's not in a mindset for talking to him already, not only from Dean but because he has never talked to Sam out side the handshake and attempted beheading. And he has not seen Sam since then although there was nothing stopping Sam asking for a sit down and talk, hell we never even saw Sam talk to Cas about Benny. The other person who maybe able to give an opinion on the guy if he wasn't sure about Dean's telling. And after all Benny had been through and Dean's words about loyalty, how he supports friends and family etc Dean dumped him to aid the relationship with Sam in what was basically a crisis point since he got back on Earth, even though Sam never asked him to do so. Really why is that fair to Benny who even if he had been killing humans it turned out to be essentially a monster with no world changing agenda, no agenda once he had killed the nest that had destroyed his girl than to survive? He never played the Winchesters off against each other, he wasn't like Crowley or Lucifer or Metatron. But he got tied up in the mix of the brothers messy communication issues and not only he but the people he killed would have paid the price.
The minute you see it from that POV then that deleted scene basically plays out as Benny as something akin to a struggling alcoholic and the Winchesters are the people who overtly (Sam) and indirectly (Dean) gave him no other coping mechanism to turn back to the bottle and get in a car, and then Dean asked him to go save Sam and then kept his bones while Sam is saying Benny wasn't what he expected? Sorry I know this doesn't make me popular but that scene out does make things easier as with it in both brothers look like royal douches who allowed an addict to become a pawn in their relationship.
As for changing the minds of people who despised Sam. I don't think people do despise him but I don't think the sun shines out of his backside either as I don't think either brother is the 'better' brother. That deleted scene is about Benny and Dean in many ways and the one that was left in does the job fine - Dean feels he should have been a better friend and you can see Benny making up his mind to stay in purgatory because he knows he's faltering and he doesn't want to. The scene as shown in the show gives Benny the dignity of choice, you can believe he'll fight in purgatory just that he is choosing that rather than fight the hunger, while not lessening the impact that he was still a toy in Sam and Dean's relationship. Because still we have the whole body language change - just not as much as the deleted scene. The guys still look like asses because of the affect of their problems have had on Benny but not right royal douche bags.
If they had kept the deleted scene, well Benny looks like he has not only given up Earth but as soon as he gets the chance in purgatory he is going to give up fighting so he can face oblivion. Dean looks like he is keeping Benny's bones because he feels the guilt of failing Benny and he knows he can't ever fail anyone like that again so he can't let go of trying to ensure everyone is safe and Sam, well Sam when he remeets Benny has dropped any suspicion about him. With the scene as canon it is because he not only needs him but because he was actually wrong about Benny and gets that as he and Dean are in a better place. With the deleted scene, Sam contributed mightly to pushing Benny to the point where Benny killed so proving Sam right but in stead of Sam still trusting that instinct even though him and Dean were more united he dropped that instinct that Benny couldn't be trusted because he needed Benny as a guide out of purgatory. Basically with the scene Sam's actions even though he doesn't know Benny killed is Sam putting his need over actually trusting his instinct if that deleted scene is in.
So better to be without that scene.
My only point was that Dean chose the "better" brother because for Dean there was no other choice. What that scene meant to fans varies depending on how you feel about the characters and how they were written. I happen to think your observations are interesting and probably more on target than that scene looked like on the surface.
Dean befriended a monster. I think he felt obligated to the deal they had, allowing Benny his freedom. I highly doubt Dean even knew about Benny's plan to seek revenge. Dean cut Benny loose though. The moment they got out....Dean told him to be good, but their time was up. Dean may have been off the rails, but he was sane enough to recognize that this friendship they shared down in purgatory could never be shared the same way topside. Dean liked Benny no doubt, but there was no trust there. Every call that came from Benny,....had dean wondering what was wrong, what had happened....and usually involved killing for one reason or another.
Dean's coin induced speech about benny being the only one who didn't let him down, was fantastical. Cas had abandoned him in purgatory. Sam wasn't there for him and didn't rescue him, so he let him down...but benny, benny kept dean alive and found the portal. But truth is Benny did all that so he can escape purgatory with dean ...and why? so he can exact his revenge. Benny never would've let dean down in purgatory...but topside...well that's a different story.
The deleted scene reveals that Benny did in fact let Dean down. He killed humans. He failed at living topside, so in essence, he failed Dean.
Does anyone else think dean is blessed with this amazing gift....that no one ever WANTS to let Dean down....Sam, Cas, Benny, Kevin.....Nobod y ever wants to be a disappointment to Dean...how does Dean do it? What magic is in that boy that makes people feel this way? Ironic too, since I've always felt Dean to feel like he's been the disappointment.
I figured that Benny disappointing Dean would minimize the entire scene of dean asking for a favor. Dean knowing that Benny fell of the wagon so to speak wouldn't have made killing him as difficult for dean. it would've made it a lot easier knowing that he was killing a vampire who killed humans anyway. The significance of asking Benny to save Sam shows that Sam comes first in his eyes, now and always. It would be less emotionally powerful knowing Dean's kill of Benny was no big deal, after all he was a vampire and he had killed humans. I think Dean's love for Sam is shown to be more powerful because he didn't know about the human kills. Only believing that Martin was Benny's only kill, made Dean's willingness to sacrifice Benny proof positive that Sam has always been his one and only brother.....and no one else comes even close...not benny, not cas, not anyone.
I didn't mind the scene not being shown...but like I said, I was pleased we got to see it on dvd....because it just corroborated everything that I personally had thought regarding Benny...and I'll take what I can get. ;)
You can dislike me for saying it but what did you expect as a response from Dean in that circumstance? Really what was your expectation when Sam didn't look?
Hell why would Dean keep Benny's bones if he knew Benny had failed to stay on blood bags? Unless he tells Sam that if Benny comes back they would have to act as proper vampire AA sponsors to give him the support he would need to stay off humans? It is easier for that scene not to have played all around.
i didn't like benny i'll admit, because i found him dull. i actually didn't start respecting him til he killed martin...that's just because he was finally being true to his nature. I think this time around, benny could actually be more interesting if he's allowed to stay true to himself...and do what vamps do....i'd like to see him and the alpha vamp together ....a team like that could be useful to the boys. ;):D
It amazes me that Sam isn't entirely insane at this stage with the layers of other people's guilt he gets laid on him along with his own. Dean should never have included Benny (the 'more of a brother than Sam had ever been') in that list in the first place - Benny's death should have been connected to a debt between Dean and Benny ONLY. Not burning Benny's bones should have been Dean's payment for the debt HE (and he alone) owed Benny for asking him for a huge favor - which Benny made it clear he was not doing for Sam's benefit but for Dean's.
Dean shouldn't have done the other list before he left to go drinking in the pub with Castiel in Sacrifice either BTW.
Benny was a sentient being (who I detest, but that is beside the point) not a pawn in Dean's showing his greater love for someone else. Sam gets blamed for Benny's 'death' by the fandom also of course ... even though it had nothing to do with him. The moral core of this show, sometimes you just have to shake your head ...
ETA: I know you aren't trying to start an argument (and neither am I) I just totally disagree that this Benny argument should be seen as a good thing and I can't not say so. Even though I suspect Jeremy Carver also meant it to be seen as an example of 'no greater love'. It is just flawed logic on his part in not seeing Benny as a person any longer but as a point of Dean showing his love for Sam. It would be the same if Sam did something like that to one of his friends for Dean.
now the junk that dean said that would've knocked him on his heels or knees, i forget which... i totally believe with every fiber of my being it's when he told sam that benny was more of a brother than he ever was. ( i never bought the i don't even remember what i said line, dean came up with it too fast and what he said in sacrifice about knocking sam on his knees....that's the only thing he said that would've done that. ) anyway, by telling sam that he killed benny to save him...i saw it as dean actually meaning that what he had said back in sc, about benny being more of a brother wasn't true. sam believed both cas and benny came first, dean is telling sam "no" ..i killed benny to save you , he doesn't come first...he never did,. For sam the issue is about trust, for dean it's about who comes first in his heart....dean telling sam that he killed benny to save him, didn't give sam guilt because for sam it wasn't about what dean thought it was about. in S9, sam was happy, feeling good, even though the world was falling apart around them....and that's because for the first time, Sam believed that dean trusted him....that's one of the reasons why finding out that dean had been lying about the possession hurt him so much. I never got the impression that Sam felt or was made to feel guilty by that.....as a matter of fact after sam heard dean say that, sam in fact changed his mind and didn't close the gates...i always felt that those words are exactly what sam needed to hear. to believe that dean did trust him more than cas and benny....that it's never been any other way. ...again...that 's just me. ;)
o
Sam responded to Dean's plea because he didn't want to let Dean down (again, as they both see it). Dean wanted him to live so Sam agreed - you can see how much he would rather have finished the trials and been done with the guilt and all the rest of it. And from what we know of Sam - and how he was at the end of Taxi Driver - he felt bad at the abandonment of Benny - there is no way he wouldn't feel guilty about his survival being directly as a result of someone else's sacrifice. When it turns out Sam is going to die anyway Dean then appeals to Sam with not being left alone - and again it is because Dean is asking for help that Sam agrees, not because Dean has given him any reason to want to live. It is really all very sad.
ETA: On a lighter note from your last post: if I never saw Benny ever again that would be soon enough for me : ) They should bring back Rowena (which I am hoping they will since 'I am the only one who can put Lucifer back in the cage' is a double edged (survival) sword I think) and pair HER with the Alpha vamp - that would be an excellent clash of worlds (and heights)!
1.13
Supernatural: Making Sam look bad for trusting his instincts (and having PTSD) since Season 8
Quote:So, implying that Sam's decision not to look for caused that chain of event is not "blaming anybody of anything"? As I said a nice try to show that Sam is to blame for everything Dean did.
. Quote:What is it if not a try to put the blame for everything that happened on Sam?
And while I would wholeheartedly endorse Sam ridding himself of his 'inferiority complex', he first needs to acknowledge where this inferiority complex stems from. And as unpopular as I know this statement will be, a lot of it stems from the words and actions of his brother.
As for where the inferiority complex comes from, it seems a bit mean to simply go 'it's all Dean's fault'. Plus as I said above I don't want to get into a Dean v Sam as I said that end scene was about Sam and for Sam's character development.
I agree that Sam's inferiority complex has its roots in events independent of anything Dean said to him. I think it started with the whole demon blood thing. Sam time and again referred to being a freak, unclean, having this "evil" inside him, etc. And when he unintentionally freed Lucifer, I felt like Sam underwent a noticeable personality shift. He seemed much less self-confident, and at the same time much more accepting of other people's mistakes. Kind of "judge not lest ye be judged." But there were many things Dean said over the years that reinforced Sam's sense of being inferior or unworthy of Dean. While some of Dean's harsh statements to Sam (which he admitted to in Sacrifice) were counterbalanced by his expressions of love for, trust in, and dependence on Sam, the fact that he has on a number of occasions dredged up Sam's past mistakes seems to have taken a toll on Sam's sense of self-worth. That is one thing I'm loving about this season -- Dean's attitude towards Sam has been generally great. He trusts in his judgment, listens to him and seems to have such appreciation for him. And that partly explains why we are seeing a newly confident, strong Sam who puts his full faith and trust in Dean AND in himself.
Secondly, I didn't say it was 'all Dean's fault'. It really is a 'bit mean' to misquote and then comment based on that misquotation. What I did say was ' a lot of it stems from the words and actions of his brother', something I stand by and will develop at a later time.
Thirdly, nothing about the comments here are 'Sam vs Dean'.
I wholeheartedly disagree that the last scene was about Sam and Sam's character development. Mainly because, on so many occasions in the past, the end scene has gone the exact same way; Sam takes full responsibility for a situation they were both involved in, he is the one who apologies, he is the one who seeks to make amends, he is the one who says he is wrong, Dean sits back, accepts zero responsibility, and benevolently accepts the apology (for now). The status quo of 'Big brother is always right' has been maintained.
What would have been character development is Sam justifying his actions and/or his decision to Dean. He apology would still have been part of it. You can feel guilty but still stand up for yourself at the same time. It would also have been absolutely fantastic character development for Dean, to see that his interpretation of events wasn't accurate, and it might have led him to question why his interpretations of what Sam does and says is always so negative. (And this is something that has been an issue since season 1, even before it.) Had Sam justified what happened, especially at a time when he and Dean were getting on okay so Dean wouldn't have just shut him down, then it would have forced Dean to think beyond 'You left me to die for a girl'. However, another opportunity lost.
As for where the inferiority complex comes from, it seems a bit mean to simply go 'it's all Dean's fault'. Plus as I said above I don't want to get into a Dean v Sam as I said that end scene was about Sam and for Sam's character development.
There has been too much about how if the Winchesters die they stay dead. And what with both Amara and Dean having smitting sickness at the same time, why would someone godlike get it even on a mega smitting? Though a godhead connected to a mortal who has it may feel its affects, I'm thinking. So that may be Dean's plot.
And Sam's maybe to let Dean go if that is what it takes or even do the deed because he knows it is the only choice, and for that you need a more emotionally put together Sam.
As far at the dog thing, yeah, it's annoying that this was the focus of their conversation. And one freakin' line from Dean along the lines of "Well, I did try to kill you with a hammer last year so I think we're even" might have gone a long ways. I don't think it's wrong for Sam to feel the guilt because that's Sam, but I do think it was supposed to be some sort of resolution for the fans that just didn't work really, at least for me.
And how can you say that you didn't peg Sam for being sentimental? I was surprised when I read that statement. I mean even Dean is a bit sentimental with all the photos he keeps with him. Then why not Sam? And not just because Dean but for me it really was not odd to see Sam having keepsake box and being sentimental.
If Sam feels guilty for, for example, being willing to destroy the world to save Dean then we should be asking, well, was there any other way? If Sam had not tried to save him then what? He did agree to MOC Dean killing him on 2 separate occasions. He basically tried to kill himself on 2 other occasions as a part of trying to sort out the MOC or the Gadreel problem - neither of which disasters he was responsible for in any way. Sam dying or the MOC being removed were the two viable-by-SPN-s tandards options.
Really the sensible decision might have been to leave Dean go to Purgatory on earth (as Cain did) - live alone, not fight, control the mark, and live forever. And for Sam not to try to rescue him at all, which was very clearly what Dean wanted, he said so time and time again in season 10. It could have been an agreement between them ... goodness that sounds like a familiar storyline, I wonder why? As long as Dean entirely controlled the mark and didn't do ANY supernatural related bad things then he could have been left with the MOC. Right?
The difference of course was that in the other Purgatory Dean got to fight and it was 'pure' and he enjoyed it on some level. And he could have 'people' keep him company. Imagine Dean keeping bees? Alone.
But hey, maybe Sam didn't want to live alone without Dean? That has always been, on previous occasions, a reasonable excuse for whatever damage results.
Sam has always been fine with dying for the greater good, Dean is the one who won't allow it. Sam has been in a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation regarding Dean his entire life. But last season he saved Dean from Dean's Purgatory and it nearly destroyed the world.
Quote:Exactly, and Sam chose dying. By the way, the world is still staying, and Amara hasn't done more damage than any file-and-rank demon yet. Marked Dean, on the other hand, was ready to rampage around the world just like Cain did in "Executioner Song". Have you noticed, by the way, that Cain's motives in his killing spree and Dean's motives in killing that Styne kid were absolutely identical: "They should die, because they had the wrong blood"? The only reason Cain had been holding it together until Dean came because he hadn't been killing anybody at all, but Marked Dean didn't even try that, so he didnt' even have a chance against the Mark. The Mark demanded killing and he did exactly that, so his getting off the rails completely was only a matter of time.
As for Sam's apology, I don't watch the show from characters' point of view neither Dean, nor Sam, just processing the information they give me. What I saw:
1. Sam felt guilty for not looking for, or not doing enough, his words were a bit ambiguous, but let's presume it was just an awkwardly written phrase. Is that anything new? No. Dean forgave him, at least till the next Sam's "transgression" . OK, so we already guessed. Then, nothing new here. Sam said the phrase "He always stood by me, I let him down" He had already said that. So, nothing new. The only new thing was that in the final scenes Sam stopped feeling guilty. So I think the only meaning of raising that issue again was exactly that. Writers wanted to wrap up the issue of Sam's guilt. I take it as an encouraging sign.
I don't want to tell what I think about Dean kicking Sam for the same things he himself had done and for the fact that Sam simply kept his promise to Dean, so I'll leave that out.
One single episode after someone unarguably and for the first time since it happened (if you don't include Death - which personally I always have) definitively acknowledged the importance of Sam's sacrifice and that it was Sam that made it ...
In regards to your question about Sam's apology. This is the way I had interpreted the last two episodes.
P. S. This is a post that I had posted on Nightsky's thread, so if anyone has happened to glance over it before, there's no need for an encore :p. It was just easier to copy and paste rather than rewrite all my thoughts.
Last week's episode, Lucifer tried to manipulate Sam by convincing Sam that he was too weak to take on the Darkness. He wanted Sam to believe that he no longer had the fight that he once had which had enabled him to save the world. Lucifer did this by taking Sam for a walk down memory lane, showing him what Lucifer perceived as Sam's boldest, bravest moments and then showing him when he lost it all. Lucifer showed Sam with Amelia and in that moment Lucifer did his damnedest to convince Sam that by choosing to run from hunting, by giving up, this was the moment Sam became weak, he lost his will to fight and he no longer has what it takes to beat Amara.
Lucifer's attempt to get to Sam failed, but it did manage to cause Sam to feel guilty all over again, this as we saw in the moments when Sam couldn't sleep and the conversation between him and Lucifer kept swimming through his head. The guilt is still with Sam as we all saw and finally got to hear in tonight's episode, but I don't think it's all black and white and I feel that both Andrew Dabb and Robbie Thompson have at last showed the fans what most of us have believed all along, so thank you for finally letting us see for ourselves what we've been saying all along.
Weakness has been a hot topic concerning Sam and Dean this season. They both believe that at one point they have been weak and thus perceive themselves to be a failure/disappo intment to their brother. As we have seen in the last two episodes, and all those previously in one form or another, both these boys are still guilty of this false perception. I think Sam and Dean share the same basic flaw and it's THIS flaw that is their weakness at times, it's their own perception due to their low opinion of themselves which often leads to guilt. Lucifer had Sam thinking his moment of weakness came, not by keeping a promise, but by running away from hunting and hiding in a fantasy world that included a woman Sam never truly loved and a dog. Sam as he admitted, imploded and ran. He didn't have the strength at the time to stay in the life that killed his family, and he didn't have the strength any more to care about the rest of the world. At the time of his grief, until he hit the dog, Sam seemed to stop living and caring about anything. The truth of the matter is, hitting that dog saved Sam's life. Sam shifting his focus to start caring again, to start helping again, as is why he chose a broken Amelia, who had lots of similarities to Dean. In that time he chose to run, he found the strength to get through and even before Sam knew Dean was alive, he left Amelia and went back to the cabin. We saw Sam coming to terms with his need to stop running during his conversation with Amelia's father even before the call came in about dear dead Don's magical reappearance. Amelia's lost husband returned and the bond they shared was no longer there. Sam knew it was time to get back to his real life or at the very most he couldn't share a life with a woman he didn't truly love because love was never what brought them together.
If Lucifer tried to convince Sam that his greatest weakness was in leaving the hunting life and running from it, I disagree with Lucifer's assessment. Though Sam was broken, he found a way to survive. He found the strength to live again and when the time came, he left the life of normal and headed back to the cabin. Finding a way to survive a devastating loss is possibly one of the strongest things a person can do and not too long ago, Dean did the same thing in order to find a way to keep going, to survive as well.
The flaw here in Sam is his own perception of self loathing and guilt. He did nothing wrong in believing his brother died. He did nothing wrong in keeping a promise they made. He did nothing wrong when he broke and ran away from the life that killed everyone, Mom, Dad, Jess ,Dean, Bobby, Ellen, Jo, Ash etc....he did nothing wrong in finding a way to survive. What he did do wrong was allow himself to feel guilty over all of it, to believe that he was a failure to his brother. His flaw was in allowing his self loathing to take over and fall victim to misperception. He did not fight back when Dean constantly ragged on him about not looking. He doesn't give his brother a beat down when Dean doesn't get that he was keeping a promise to his brother and most importantly, he doesn't tell Dean himself that he imploded and ran, that it was hell, that all he wanted to do was look for a way to bring him back but they made a damn promise and that's what Sam believed Dean wanted.
I just wanted to mention something regarding the promise. This pact/agreement that was made is very important. Although made off screen, it was made for a reason. The three of them made this promise because of everything that's happened since Dean made his demon deal. This agreement didn't just come out of the blue, there is precedence for the boys to make this promise to one another. When the Winchesters make a promise to ea. other, they stick to it. We must remember the significance of this pact...if the pact didn't exist, then Sam most likely would never have imploded and ran. What we have to remember is, once upon a time Dean wanted to call it quits when Sam died. He said he gave enough. He said he lost enough...and when Bobby told Dean something big was coming, end of the world big...Dean's reply was "then let it end". The only difference between Dean's circumstance then, and Sam's back in s8, was that Sam was bound to a promise...and Dean, well was free to do whatever it took...Here's the kicker, it's Dean's act in the first place that ultimately led to the pact the boys made. If Sam wasn't burdened with a promise, he would most likely have looked for a way to bring his brother back from the dead. Without the agreement, there would be no implosion.
damn I digressed again:p:.....Sa m's flaw was his low opinion of himself and his belief that he deserved to take the beatings and his belief that his brother saw him as a failure. (which was never the case and Dean's issues were not about Sam, they were about him...but then that goes back to Dean's flaw...same as Sam's ..self loathing....onl y it's worn differently on each of them...but the result is always the same....misperc eption and the false belief that they are a failure to the other).
If the stroll down memory lane did anything, it was having Sam recognize this guilt that stems from how he sees himself and not how his brother actually sees him. Showing Sam the moment with Amelia seemed to have the opposite effect on Sam....the way I saw it, it seemed to clarify once and for all that his time with Amelia wasn't about weakness, it was a sign of strength, Sam found a way to survive, because of his love for his brother. Sometimes one just needs a little time to regroup, by Sam focusing on Amelia, we see Sam not giving up on life, but as a means of surviving it, even he if had to do it by living a life that wasn't a reality. ;) But of course the guilt is still there. Lucifer did remind Sam of the guilt that he does feel. The guilt for breaking in the first place. The guilt for running away. The guilt for seemingly disappointing Dean.
I think Robbie Thompson has continued to use the double meaning method of writing in which the story can be interpreted in two ways, depending how you choose to view it. No matter how one chooses to view it, the same message is there.
Sam: "I should've looked for you . When you were in purgatory, I should've turned over every stone, but I didn't ...I stopped." This statement can be interpreted in two ways.
We have option A.
One can look at it like this; "I should've turned every stone but, I didn't, I stopped"...Does that mean Sam in fact did try? Those first months when Sam said the just got in the car and drove, did he make the attempt to look but failed in that attempt? He stopped because he had no information, no clue, no help, nothing....did he convince himself that his brother had died because he couldn't face up to Dean just being missing and Sam not able to find him.?
or....
Option B
"I should've looked for you." (as in I should've looked for a way to bring you back). "When you were in purgatory, I should've turned over every stone" (meaning, I should've looked for other ways besides demon deals to bring you back from the dead. I should've tried other methods, promise or not.) But I stopped (but instead I ran. I stopped hunting. I couldn't do it. I was weak and I failed you.) *This is of course how Sam sees himself, not at all as I see Sam.
I believe with all my heart that it's the latter, Option B. Dean's non reaction to Sam's confession has me convinced of this. But no matter how you look at it, Sam has borne the burden of this guilt to this day....and even though it would've been nice for Dean to admit that a promise was made, I think by telling Sam to let it go...he's long forgiven him...and all that matters is that they're together, was his way of letting Sam know that Dean loves him and never has truly seen Sam as a disappointment. I also think it implies that Dean understands. I think Dean understood ever since Sacrifice. Sam's willingness to die because he didn't want to let Dean down again, his confession that his biggest sins were letting dean down in the first place...it was then that Dean realized his part in making Sam feel this way, even if he didn't realize he was doing it. I think Dean also at this point understood where Sam was coming from, I think he understood all the way back to Larp and the Real Girl, when he confessed to Charlie. I think Dean's actions in the second half of the season basically was his way of letting Sam know he understood and was no longer angry, after all Dean has been through the same thing. I didn't see it necessary for Dean to talk about the promise and go into it all again, because I felt like he sort of did that in his own way during Sacrifice. Dean didn't need, want or even expect Sam to apologize. Sam's apology was not only for Dean, it was for Sam. Sam has been carrying this guilt for so long now, even still, even after brother's keeper....this was Sam letting go of the guilt. Dean didn't even know Sam was feeling this way....But when Sam does finally let himself free of the guilt....Dean, the king of guilt, is gracious enough not to dismiss it, but to allow Sam this freedom...and to assure Sam that none of it mattered and the only thing that's important to him is that they're together....and I appreciated that.
This is kind of a p.s.
Another reason that I believe it to be option b is because sam never used the words you were missing and i couldn't find you. It was very important and notable that right from the start carver made it perfectly clear that sam thought dean was dead.....anothe r reason is that there is no precedence for an agreement to be made about them being missing..everyt hing that has ever gone wrong has been because of resurrections. I totally believe that dean's question of not looking for him was not about him being missing, it was about sam looking for him as in looking for ways to bring him back...i don't think dean wasn't hearing sam when he repeatedly told dean he thought he died.
And as i think more about it, i am more sure than ever, given sam's new outlook which is the boys old outlook, that sam's apology was more about him believing he was weak when he imploded and ran. He has been so driven by his guilt over failing his brother he had forgotten what being a hunter was all about..he forgot about the innocents and his focus was soley on dean...by breaking and imploding, by running away, by carrying this guilt and being driven by it, he unleashed the d on the world. Sams weakness is guilt..by apologizing for it he rids himself of it..and by dean allowing sam to apologise, without going into his part..he is enabling sam to finally let go....now sam can do what it takes to stop the darkness without the burden of guilt influencing his decisions.;)
anyway that's my interpretation ....jmo of course. ;)
Quote:May be the authors think that Sam has nothing to feel guilty about in these situations? Dean's perspective is not the authors' perspective. And may be they even think, that Sam was right in that Gadriel's possession thing? And I don't understand how it should be Sam's guilt that Metatron killed Dean in any way.
Early on, I thought there was a reason for the whole Sam not looking thing stuff that has been brought up over the these last two episodes have proven that this was just a ginormous f'up by Carver and he, or Andrew Dabb on his behalf, are trying to smooth things over to the point of doing a retcon. At first the story was Sam thought Dean was dead and his world imploded. Then we got the damn "we had an agreement" pile of manure. Now we're told Sam stopped looking and that it's his biggest regret. No shit, Sherlock; we kind of figured that out in 8.23 Sacrifice. I took these conversations/s cenes as, by proxy, an apology for that Season 8 nonsense, have moved on, and hope they stop revisting it.
The other possibility is that they are spending a lot of time on this and neglecting some of Dean's transgressions in S9/S10 in order to setup Dean for the big fall, where he ends up choosing Amara over Sam. Deep down, that might be Dean's biggest fear; he was able to turn on Amara when she threatened Sam earlier this season, but will he be able to when it happens again?
Jim Michaels said they tried to get the rights to Into The Mystic but the artist declined permission. But I did love the Warren Zevon song they used for the closing montage.
I thought that I saw blood coming from the baby's ear after the Banshee attack and I assumed that the Banshee's screams had deafened her. She didn't die because her mother's spell banished the Banshee before it ate her brains.
Sam has a keepsake box now? The brochure of the senior home earned a spot? Huh. I guess having a home does make a difference. I never pegged Sam to be the sentimental type. Maybe he's doing it more because he's a legacy and their history should be preserved too. Any thoughts on this?
I have always thought of Sam as having a cigar box with a few things that are important to him in it. Some things like a few baseball cards, an action figure. Things that he carried around from place to place as they rode around. His kid writing would be on the outside of it - "Keep out Dean!" A place to put a few things he treasured. Jessica's engagement ring would be in it. Sam has always seemed to me to be the one that would be more sentimental, but not let on about it. John had Dean's first sawed-off shotgun and Sam's soccer trophy in his storage building, and it has been said more than once on the show that Sam is a lot like John.
I agree.
(it is all square brackets)
1) I won't allow my brother to die under any circumstances whatsoever even if it results in the destruction of the world (Ep 11.1)
2) I won't say yes to Lucifer even if it means that I and my family and friends all die (11.9)
3) I won't allow myself to die because it makes Dean do (stupid) things to get me back that I then get punished for because they lead to even bigger problems down the road that are somehow entirely my fault. Also Dean gets upset with me if I get pissed about it and that is a worse sin than world destruction.
If anyone has an answer as to what Sam should do next time he has no choice I would like to hear it.
Seek the advice of the magic conch.
Or he could just bang his head against the nearest wall.
I think Sam is going to find himself truly alone. I think Amara will have Dean so twisted that he will choose her. So Sam is going to be fighting 3 big bads - Amara, Luci, and Dean. Not to mention try to bring Cas back. Sam working together with Eileen to intelligently figure this mess out is where I hope his head is at.
My Oracle is oftentimes wrong though.
I'm leaning yes, especially (or maybe only) if Dean is on board with the plan. Otherwise, every bit of character growth that Sam has shown this season is meaningless and we will simply have a replay of Brothers Keeper. I think the point of the reminder of the S8 debacle was merely to raise the stakes for Sam and make his decision even more wrenching. Because nothing can ever be simple for the poor guy! The difference will be that this time, Sam will leave no stone unturned trying to rescue Dean from whatever befalls him when Amara is dispatched. I really think this scenario would be consistent with all of the threads they've begun this season, some of which I had been puzzling over. But stay tuned for next week, when I will come up with an entirely different theory.;)
Something has me left confused, and not just in this episode: if the bunker is warded, how come Lucifer was able to get in? Did I miss anything?
Larry You don't. If you know where the key is, then take it to these coordinates. Throw it in. Shut the door forever. And walk away.
Sam Wait, w-why would I do that?
Larry Because it is the safest place on earth, warded against any evil ever created.
So, if the door is unlocked or you have a key, about anyone can get in. What confuse me back in S9 is that Crowley teleported in to the bunker just before Dean became a demon; that made no sense at all.
And, technically, while angels aren't considered evil, A certain archangel named Lucifer is :):):) Just as demon Dean shouldn't have been able to roam freely about the bunker when he tried to kill Sam; there are devils traps and all sorts of warding at different places on the floors and walls.
Lucifer is a great evil, but although the MOL were good, they weren't omniscient. Lucifer was seen as a myth, heck even the demons thought he was a myth, and they may not have had any idea they had to ward against him or had any reason to even try. If they knew anything it was that Lucifer was locked behind a number of seals and that 66 had to be broken in order to free him. So they worried about warding against less unique threats. The Bunker probably isn't warded against The Darkness either.
1. I feel Cas is going to be the big sacrifice this season not the Boys everybody will be expecting a sacrifice like SD has suggested but I think Cas won't be able to beat Lucy and he beleives he has to redeem himself to Heaven and mankind. Also Cas would be the easiest to bring back in S12 if we have one.
2. I listened to a interveiw with J2 regarding Dean / Amara connection it is not a voodoo doll connection Amara can be sent back to the big beyond without affecting Dean. Jensen also said that when it comes to Amara in this second half - he will be relying on Sam to take the lead because Dean doesn't trust himself. Whether Dean tells Sam soon I don't know
3, SD also feels that part of Sam's character growth this season may be leading up to a sacrifice of either his brother or himself, I'm not leaning that way at all. I'm hoping that all these confessions / forgiveness /travels back in time with Lucy / is all to get Sam back to his former self He always had the stronger personality the strength and knowledge and convictions to do the right thing.
I'm hoping this is being shown as a type of clensing for Sam so he is ready to support his brother, who has either under a spell or a mind meld thing happening with Amara. I think Sam will be fighting more his brother than Amara to save him. Not in the physical sense but more as Family and free will
Sam's confession was just that ...a confession. I don't even think he used the word 'sorry". He said i should've looked for you, when you were in purgatory i should've turned over every stone, but i stopped. This is a confession....a n unloading of his soul, his unburdening of his guilt...but no where did i hear sam say that he was sorry....becaus e there was nothing to be sorry for. Writer's apparently think so since they didn't write it in.
Look at Sam's confession....h e noted he should've looked for you, he should've turned over every stone...but he stopped. Now Luci, in his effort to manipulate sam, told Sam that he didn't even bother to look for dean( and i still believe it was look as in look for a way to bring him back)...luci didn't say to sam you couldn't even bother to try harder...you just gave up....now the fact that luck specifically told sam he didn't even bother to look indicates to me that Sam's stopping was immediate....an d as we know from his confession to Amelia,....stop ping really means imploding and running. So from Dean's non reaction to Sam's confession and Luci's you never even bothered, I'm pretty convinced that Sam broke immediately, considering in his mind he made a pact with Dean and there was nothing he could do....he ran away....
Lucifer didn't blame sam for not looking. he just noted that he didn't do it, but more than that, he noted when sam's true weakness began....it was when he quit. it was when he ran. it was hiding out with a woman and a dog. Luci simply noted to Sam that it was due to breaking that he's been carrying around this guilt and this guilt has been a driving force in sam, influencing his decisions and narrowing his focus on saving dean alone. Luci has pointed out to sam that his guilt has been his guide.
Sam had already come to this realization on his own, as we see in the first ep of the season and sam's realization that they have to change and cannot only live by half the bumper sticker. But it's his trip down memory lane that brought his feelings of guilt to the surface and his recognition that luci was correct in that Sam has let guilt be too much of an influence. Sam knows that this can't be anymore, so he gathered up his strength and he confessed to his brother and thus unburdened himself of all that guilt he kept deep down inside. he's free. for the most part....because sam is still very much like his brother and he is a winchester and sadly winchesters have been raised where they're not allowed to show weakness. If you noticed in Sam's confession, he still didn't use the words he used with Amelia...he still couldn't bring himself to explain in detail, his imploding and running....he simply used the word stopped. To actually use the words, to admit to dean flat out that he was weak.?...no way.....subtle is the way to go here....i think Dean can figure out, at this point, what stopped really means.
confession is good for the soul and now sam is free from the guilt he has buried deep down. now sam can do what it takes to kill the D without the burden of feeling like he could let his brother down. Now it's dean's turn to do some confessing..... i think he should start with the whole amara/bond thing.....hopef ully he'll follow sam's lead as he's done since the season began.
Castiel: You think I'm afraid to die?
Amara: I know you are, you reek of fear and self loathing. Oh, scary. She's right you know, you are expendable and weak. And why God took a special interest in you, I'll never understand. My brother always did have horrible taste in men. Amara used the same you are weak, afraid to die, fear, self loathing, doubt and brothers being wrong routine.
Amara certainly knows the way of the Devil.
You have misinterpreted my post....I was giving my opinion on the interpretation of Lucifer's words....those are not mine. I had just written an very long post where I actually noted that Sam's time with Amelia was a sign of his strength, not his weakness. I did nothing but praise Sam for finding a way to survive the loss of his brother. While I don't agree that Sam was in love with Amelia, I do feel that he loved the normal life he got to live when he was with her. I think you can love someone and not be IN love with them. I think he loved her for being there when he needed her, for giving him something to focus on rather than his own grief, and for letting him be there for her. The relationship though wasn't founded or based on love, it was founded and based on grief and loss....that I do stand by. I thought Sam hitting that dog did save his life, and I'm not referring to any suicidal tendency. I do stand by my feeling that Sam was devastated at the loss of Dean. He himself used the words imploded and ran...Given that I find it totally plausible that Sam was in no state to be driving when he hit the dog. Now whether or not his grief pushed Sam to the point that he didn't care whether he lived or died...well we have seen in the past, Sam's willingness to die at the hands of Lilith...and as Ruby noted he didn't want to survive because then he'd have to go on without his brother. So there is precedence for Sam feeling this way.
Sam didn't seek out a normal life. He fell into it accidentally. He hit the dog and was made to feel guilty by Amelia to take care of it. He then sought a job at the motel as a handyman in the meantime. She lived in that motel and he recognized how broken she was and that's when their bond began to form. Don't get me wrong, he did find something while he was with her...I had noted that on many a post as well. Not only did he get to live a life, where the for the first time he was unburdened by the weight of the world, but in time he eventually found his strength again. Sam did leave Amelia before he even knew Dean was alive. During Sam's conversation with Amelia's father, he was reminded that they were two lost people simply holding onto ea. other. Sam knew he was right, and the call about Don just made him do what he was going to do anyway sooner.
As for the rest...like I said, I was noting what Luci said and what Luci was trying to get Sam to believe. I'm with you on him being the master manipulator. Luci told sam that he didn't bother to look, he hid out with a woman and a dog, but then dean came back and now sam's driven by guilt to do whatever it takes to save his brother.
Sam loves his brother more than anything. Nobody has faith in Dean the way Sam does and nobody sees the goodness in Dean the way Sam does. Absolutely guilt is not the primary force that guides Sam...hell that's the wrong word..i should never have used that word...influenc e ...I think I should've used that word, I like it much better....I apologize on using the word guide...it's not really what I meant. Love is the main reason Sam does what he does for his brother...alway s and forever....but I still stand by my premise that guilt influences Sam as well....and I'm not even referring to him not looking for Dean and the regret/remorse he feels there, dusted with a dash of guilt:p:, i'm talking about the deep down guilt that I believe he's buried but yet still remains from his inability to stop Dean from going to hell. I still think that Sam has never really forgiven himself for that...I still think Sam sees that as a fail on his part. Sam by nature does carry guilt as does Dean. Sam felt guilty for the action of soulless Sam ....sam spoke to dean a few times in s6 about having to make it right. Sam also felt guilty for Kevin...whether one might see that as rational or not...it was his hands that killed kevin and he suffered from the nightmares envisioning it over and over. He also told Cas in First Born to keep going with that needle, that he needed to do something right for once..as he also felt guilty for not closing the gates...if he had closed the gates, he would've died and thus he wouldn't have killed Kevin....So there is precedence that Sam is prone to guilt. There is also precedence that there have been times where Sam's actions were influence/motiv ated by his guilt. His desperate need to save Dean in s10 was most definitely an act of love, without a doubt....but I still think sam's guilt was also an influence as well, because he wasn't going to let his brother die again, and he certainly wasn't going to allow him to become a demon. Neither Sam or Dean are one dimensional cardboard cutouts....they are complex characters whose motivations/act ions are influenced by different emotions.
I'm totally with you on Sam's ability to rise above and see through Luci's manipulations and his attempt to get Sam to say yes....I've always,, always praised sam about his strength of character.... Sam is the strongest character on the show, even dean admitted to that.
Still, Sam's confession to dean......I should've looked for you, I should've turned over every stone, but I stopped and I've never forgiven myself for it..... So with that it leads me to believe that Sam's guilt lies with his notion that him stopping was his crime so to speak. now for me...stopping is equivalent to imploding and running. so Sam's burden seems to me, based on his confession what he's never forgiven himself for is the fact that he imploded and ran.....these are sam's feelings...not my feelings that sam should feel that way.
he's never forgiven himself for that...thus he's laden himself with the burden of guilt which he buried deep down....but I don't think he buried them deep enough, because I do think that sam's feelings of guilt for not saving dean from hell, compacted with feelings of guilt for the actions of soulless, the stopping, his believing he let dean down, him not closing the gates of hell, the actions of gadreel having him kill kevin, watching dean die again because of metatron, and then watching his brother become a demon......you mix that all up with the absolute love and adoration sam has for dean, and you're gonna get sam doing everything it takes to save his brother ......
I totally agree with you that sam and dean would've gotten out....cas saying yes to Lucifer reminds me a lot of him going to Crowley back in s6. Dean begged Cas to trust in them....in the three of them and Cas chose not to and look what happened ....now he's doing it all over again...
I still think amara and the devil are sympatico....no t so sure luci wants her gone....what if luci was looking for something in the bunker, not to destroy amara, but to help amara find/destroy God? :o:o
Sam had trouble sleeping because lucifer's taunts swam through his head. Sam actually told dean that luci showed him his greatest failure..his words not mine.
Sam also told Aileen or Eileen or whatever her name really was that his btother was always there even when he let him down.
Sam's exact words in confession "i should've looked for you. When you were in purgatory i should've turned over every stone, but i didn't...I stopped and i've never forgiven myself for it."
He could have ended it with i didnt and ive never forgiven myself and that would indicate his regret came only from not looking...but his statement of not forgiving himself came after "i stopped"...whic h as i stand my belief that stopping=Implod ing and running. Sam's speech in hunter heroici to the guy from "mash" also confirms my belief.
Mostly what confirms my belief as it occurred to me is Sam. When Sam left Amelia he could have gone anywhere if it was about simply moving on in his normal life, but Sam returned to the cabin. He didnt even know dean was alive at this point. I thought it very telling that of all the places sam chose to go, he went back to the place that represents all he ran from...at the time, it was the closest thing the boys had to what could be represented as home.
Given his speech in hunter heroici, ive always believed that had sam been given the chance, he wouldve started to look for kevin again. Dean's sudden reappearance soon to be followed by deans anger just aggravated the guilt sam already had buried. I do think that sam felt guilt because he told dean that he kept up with the news, he read the papers...seems to me that sam really couldnt let it go..he just couldnt do it...
And given the boys' attitude towards what they deem to be weakness,,,show ing it in any form is a big no no, because unfortunately in the winchester world if you seem weak you are a failure or disappointment to your brother...and both the boys have been raised in a manner that they see it that way...and that is the saddest part of all