Was the episode a barnburner? No. Was it better than “We Need to Talk About Kevin?” Yes. Was it better than “I Think I’m Gonna Like it Here?” Oh yes. Was it better than “Black?” Light years yes.
It felt like a “Supernatural” episode to me for starters. The story flowed well and I never lost interest. The dialogue was great (no one does dialogue better than Carver). There were light moments. The side stories didn’t dominate or distract too much from the main action yet they were enjoyable as well. I think ultimately though, this episode kicked off the season with a premise of which we all can get onboard. It’s everything I’ve felt that’s been missing in this show for a while now. “Hunting Things” is only half the bumper sticker. We need that other half.
The Winchester Boys and Philosophical Bumper Stickers
But there was way more to this story than Sam and Dean sharing ideologies in a tense lockdown situation. Tone is everything. No matter how much the Winchesters were back and willing to fight, we were constantly reminded what a dark situation they truly face. It was all done through show, don’t tell. I love show, don’t tell. I want to hold onto it and curl up with it at night. Carver proved there is a way to unfold a mythological story through demonstration, not dialogue. It starts with seeing exactly what happened to both Sam and Dean in that cloud of dark. Sam was knocked unconscious after Dean disappears, taken by Amara to a field of dark swirling clouds. The visual is stunning. He’s surrounded by evil, yet Dean is protected. Their conversation plays out through the episode, to slowly feed us information, so not to overwhelm with us a dialogue heavy scene. It’s ideal, and it keeps the even, very eerie tone in the entire episode.The episode connected on an emotional level, telling whole stories through emotional reactions, which is honestly a rare feat with a show this old. Too many other lesser skilled writers (I’m not naming names) fail to bring that out on the page. Carver is eloquent, as well as director Robert Singer, in drawing out those tender moments at just the right time. I felt instantly connected to new dad Mike and felt awful over his demise. I loved him taking that moment to hold and love that child while telling his story, knowing full well that his end was coming. He made sure that he chose to right person to care for her. I also loved the return of sympathetic Sam and Dean, taking in every word with tender heartbreak of this very tragic situation. It’s facial acting and no two do it better. I swear somewhere down the road this show forgot that (probably lost in the sensationalized stories and dialogue-heavy exposition).
One extraordinary feat that happened too was I felt the suspense! I was on the edge of my seat when Sam was checking out the hospital after they arrived. He stumbled upon black throat guy pounding away at the door, tensely hiding from his view. Sam wouldn’t kill him though. He’s decided to ask questions first and then shoot later. I also jumped during that scene in the dark supply closet, waiting for the bad guys to bust in. No, I didn’t expect someone to jump out from behind. Well done!

Jenna: “This job is supposed to be saving people.”
Dean: Sounds better on paper, doesn’t it?
On the flip side, Dean has gone into survival mode. If there’s ever been a piece of dialogue to show the two different directions these brothers have gone, this is THE one. (it’s a long conversation, but it’s very important!)
Sam: I get it. I do. We’re going to save that baby, okay, and we’re gonna find Cas and we’re gonna stop the Darkness.
Dean: What are we talking about?
Sam: The plan.
Dean: We have a plan. It’s the same plan is it’s always been. In order to get out we go through.
Sam: And? How has that been working for us?
Dean: We can’t save Cas, we’re stuck in a hospital. Just like I can’t strap on in a time machine, go back and tell Cain to shove that Mark up his ass or stop you from releasing the darkness. Now have we made mistakes? Yes, Hell yes. And we can analyze each and every one of them over a couple of frostys when we’re old and farting sawdust and OUT OF THIS ROOM! Right now all I can do is I can gear up, I can head out, I can save that freaking baby, which is exactly what I’m gonna do.
Sam: When did we forget how to do this?
Dean: What?
Sam: Dean, if we don’t change, right now, all our crap is just going to keep repeating itself.
Dean: I don’t even…what?
Sam: This…this kill first question later. What happened to us? Hunting things, we’re good at that, sure, we’re great at that, but it’s only half the bumper sticker man.
Dean: Sam, I’m trying to save that baby.
Sam: And what about the others out there?
Dean: You mean the ones that are trying to kill us?
Sam: The ones that are sick, the ones that are dying.
Dean: Yeah, who won’t rest until they’ve infected us all.
Sam: So we just forget about a cure?
Dean: What cure? Jenna’s cure? (Holds up shotgun)
Sam: There’s always a cure. You just have to want to find it.
Dean: Yeah, how are you going to find it if you’re dead. (Turns around). And around and around we go.
Sam: Saving people means all of the people Dean, not just that baby, not just each other. I unleashed a force on this world that could destroy it to save you.
Dean: I told you not to.
Sam: I would do it again, in a second, I would do it again. And that is what I’m talking about. This isn’t on you. It is on us. We have to change.
Dean: What are you thinking?
Sam: Get Jenna to the car, get her and the baby somewhere safe.
Dean: Without a shot. And what are we gonna do with those things on our tail.
Sam: They won’t be on your tail.
This discussion raises some very good questions. For one, I’m thrilled to see this talk happen. I wasn’t a pure fan of the whole idea that Sam and Dean in the course of saving each other over the last two seasons put other people’s lives above their own, intentionally or not. But how hypocritical is it of Sam to start changing after the damage has been done? Why is Sam all of a sudden feeling the guilt of harming people when he was so willing to risk everything to save people before? Because Sam is not a guy for regrets, and neither is Dean. That doesn’t fix anything. He did say he would do it again in a second. The mess is made, it’s time to clean it up. I think this time though, Sam is emotionally exhausted. He felt like in this episode he was always on the brink of tears. He’s at his wits end and I’m not sure if he can take at this point another setback, and he’s facing a big one! I’m sure he’ll find a way though. This is Sam freaking Winchester.

Dean also backed Sam’s play after this talk. Was Dean wrong to go into survival mode initially? Jenna was following Sam’s philosophy that these people should be saved. But Dean did raise a good point, how can you save people if you’re dead? “And round and round we go.” This seems to be the catch 22 of the Winchester’s lives. I’d like to see Dean get out of survival mode and see the bigger picture, but maybe not quite to the degree of Sam who was more willing to sacrifice himself this go around. There has to be a balance between the two, and that balance is the missing half of that proverbial bumper sticker.
Also, if Sam thinks they should start changing now, then why did he lie to Dean when he called? Why didn’t he tell him that something was wrong? Because he knew that Dean would forget about saving the baby and come after him. But is the lie really changing things? Dean after all didn’t come forward with the info about his conversation with Amara. I would think that Dean would have a better reason to tell the truth than Sam. Was it really Dean just remembering things as they went? I’d buy into that explanation. No matter what, some things don’t change with these Winchesters. Lying to each other is one of them.
As for all the other details, the truth is Jeremy Carver’s scripts don’t do much with hidden clues or making one thing seem like something else. What you see for the most part can be taken at face value. Take Sam for instance. He wasn’t attacked by the black neck people (rabids?) because he was already infected. There’s nothing more to it than that. Sam knew it, which is why he sat on the floor of that supply closet devastated. He knew what was going on inside of him. He took their retreat as the very bad sign it was, that hesitant look in the mirror only being the final confirmation. Having hours to live is definitely a trial for Sam and that’s why I can’t wait to see how next week plays out.
Also, the mark on the baby, I took that to be that’s the woman in the clouds. After all, the mark is the same. Amara is the Darkness. The baby is evil. Castiel put it best, “The Darkness is a woman?” Her words with Dean indicated that she doesn’t know anything about earth and creation from the times of the Book of Genesis on. She never heard of Death and he was pretty damned old. So, it does seem fitting she would start her new life, her re-creation, as a baby. Am I disappointed that The Darkness can be traced to one being? I’m not sure yet. I like the idea better than the disastrous “Anyone can be a Leviathan” plot from season seven, but at the same time, what could this one being do that’s so awful that she could only be contained by God and his archangels? I’m underwhelmed so far but willing to give it a chance. What is this Darkness really? TBD.

I even liked the B stories. For one, Castiel is such a stoic figure. To see him so bewildered, so emotional, so desperate and lost, it was a nice change of pace. It proves too that when it comes to those heart tugging moments, Misha Collins can also knock it out of the park. Castiel surrendered himself to other angels rather than risk hurting others. It’s the noble Castiel we know and love, and boy is he going to pay dearly. At least he managed to call Sam and Dean so they could all get on the same page before he surrendered to Heaven’s goons. I just hope Andrew Dabb isn’t a fan of Deliverance.
I’m sorry, but I laughed at Crowley. It was juvenile, unnecessary, and I laughed anyway. It was a very clever Crowley thing to do to escape via red smoke down the drain just before Castiel stabbed him. I loved the woman he possessed. She did the perfect Crowley! Just saying the word “King!” was dead on. I thought going through with the orgy was hilarious, and such a Crowley thing to do. I even laughed at the menopause comment. I won’t read into anymore than that. It was having a little fun in a dire situation.
However, I REALLY loved how noise is coming from the cage. You know it’s Lucifer. Death said it all, Lucifer was the original holder of the Mark. I wonder what he has to say and how he’ll get to say it.

Other Thoughts
A minor quibble, I don’t care for the title card too much. It looks like a slightly jazzed up version of season one. It’s pretty tame. Is it a statement that we’re back to basics? I hope not.
This episode looks like it was shot with the exact set from “Jus in Bello.” I’ll have to consult my locations expert, Bardicvoice, and see if that episode was filmed in the studio or onsite somewhere.
I didn’t miss Rowena this episode. There was just too much going on and no room for her. At least Castiel reminded us that she is at large with The Book of the Damned and the Codex. Just in case we forgot.
Overall grade, a B+. All that matters is the premise leaves me wanting more. I haven’t said that in several season openers. Thank you Mr. Carver. Bring on next week!
Comments
I think Dean isn’t himself. I think Amara sent him to Superior, to the hospital to save that baby. That’s the reason for his brutal focus. His job was save the baby, not the family business.
I think the conversation is ongoing. He's in thrall and confused. He's not quite Dean.
I agree that Sam us really emotional.
I thought the orgy was a sign that Crowley is still partly human and thus his priorities are skewed. Maybe Anna Is going through perimenopause now and Carver is living it. I Don't know. I am very late to that bus.
The orgy scene was just distasteful to me. Sorry. I saw no humor at all. 3 of the 4 characters were straight out of Three's Company school of sit com humor. The actress who played Crowley's vessel was good though. So Crowley got his rocks off and then butchered 3 people. Just so not funny to me. Nor was the slow way the camera panned over their naked bodies. Those were people no matter how silly they were made out to be. I want evilish sly Crowley back but that scene just left a sour taste in my mouth, instantly. He basically assaulted and murdered 3 people. Maybe 4. It wasn't a fun frolic in my mind.
I am hopeful that this season will live up to the promise I saw in the finale. Thanks Alice for the review I am mostly in agreement with your take.:)
I agree that Sam didn't tell Dean about being infected because he knew what Dean would do. I am not sure why Dean didn't tell Sam what the D was saying to him. My first impression was that Dean was slowly remembering the events in the black cloud. He was laser focused on saving the baby. I felt that was the mission the D put Dean on. Save the baby so she could be re born.
I agree with Leah the orgy scene didn't work for me. Not because of the ick factor so much as it again reduces Crowley to a joke.
Cas giving himself up to the angels. Did he think that was going to go well? Hopefully they can cure him of the attack dog spell. The brothers are going to need a fully powered angel.
I saw this tag line elsewhere and it should go on the bumper sticker.
Saving people, hunting things, hiding things.
John taught Sam and Dean well. Hiding things may always be a part of who they are. But the first phrase on the bumper sticker is "Saving People". That should be their #1 priority.
I did enjoy this season premiere. With Carver as the sole show runner now it will be interesting to see if the season flows differently than it has in the past few years.
As far as Sam and Dean, I don't think Dean is withholding anything from Sam; he's still processing/reme mbering what happened in the Darkness cloud. Dean's fragmented conversations with the Hello Darkness My Old Friend woman sounded awfully similar to what Lucifer told Sam in S5, that he would never harm him.
As far as Sam being infected, telling Dean would have only caused Dean to race off to try to save Sam, leaving the baby at risk so I understand why he didn't say anything. And besides, Sam has a limited shelf life at this point; he either finds a cure or he dies.
And I, for one, was happy that Sam finally brought up the fact that the brothers have gotten very good at hunting things part of the equation but have kind of sucked at saving people. This was discussed by many during hellatus and I look forward to the brothers remembering and living that.
And we seem to be the only ones who really enjoyed Crowley's orgy. It was so "Crowley"! And she nailed it!
An A for me.
I thought this episode was very well paced. I wasn't expecting Sam to be infected this episode but I'm not complaining one bit! Again the pace was very good for that, from the infection to the worried look in the mirror. My only complaint (okay two..) was infection by blood. Did I say similar to Croatoan? Make that very similar.. The other complaint is they die after only a few hours. At the moment I'm not keen on that idea. I guess the Darkness doesn't want company.
Quote: When that demon said that my heart skipped a beat! Mentioning the cage and noises coming from it? Good lord this season is hyping itself up well! Maybe we'll see Adam? ;)
I'm going to HOPEFULLY enjoy next week's episode with Veiny-Sam (Black Veined Sam or Darkness Sam?). Just give me some bat shit crazy Sam for at least a quarter of the episode and I'll be happy. *sigh* But I know in my head that I will be disappointed. I hope I'm very wrong.
I share your confusion about Death, Liona. I'm also bewildered about why Amara is wearing the mark that kept the Darkness locked up. I'm probably stating the obvious here, but is Carver suggesting that God defeated the Darkness by taking away the source of its power--the mark--and giving it to Lucifer to guard? If so, I guess the only way to lock up the Darkness again is to remove the mark from Amara and put it somewhere safe. I wonder why the Darkness took the body of a baby. Is she incapable of possessing a human unless she does so before the human is born? Maybe Carver wants to give us a (rapidly growing) half human/half Amara, torn between good and evil, but that wouldn't explain Amara's choice of meat suit. As for the rabid people not attacking Sam, it could have been because he was already infected, but I don't know. They looked a bit startled and intimidated to me. Maybe the Darkness sent out a signal not to kill Sam. After all, Amara told Dean they'd be taking care of each other. She certainly couldn't hope for Dean's cooperation if she were to blame for the death of his brother.
So I have a theory about the smoke cloud that took over everything. What if it was a boobytrap set up by God on the lock on the Darkness? Like a last defense. So when the lock opened, the smoke rushed out and turned people it came into contact with into weapons. Specifically rabid leviathan-ish weapons who wanted to kill the Darkness as it started to manifest on this plane of existence. Yes, a few hundred people died... but maybe the Darkness was vulnerable for a period of time and set up the booby trap to make it's immediate surroundings hostile to it if it should ever open the lock. The reason I went down this line of thinking is that the Rabids died off. He didn't create a world-wide epidemic. He just created a localized phenomenon to try and stop the Darkness.
Of course it didn't work because Dean was going to SAVE THE FREAKIN' BABY. And what a perfect disguise for the Darkness. Humans would naturally protect a baby. By making the humans rabid, he overrode their instincts.
But I can also see Dean having another conversation with Amara (adult version) and her denying turning the people into monsters. They were after the baby, after all...so her story would possibly hold water. Just another way of confusing Dean.
All I know is he better come clean to Sam about his Amara-visions.
I am sure Sam will at least tell Dean about the cure. Hard to say if he will come clean about being infected though. I think he wants to take his new motto out for a spin for a while before Dean decides shoot first regret later is the better plan.
The information that Dean has about Amara and the Darkness I think will be a season long problem for the boys. I believe it is just the weight of the secret not who is keeping a secret from whom. And if Dean is keeping it from Sam, why? Is he being coerced so much to protect the D that he can't come clean? All adds to the mystery of what is happening with the Winchesters.
That first time I watched the promo thinking "Is he roasting a marshmallow?" was great..
Yes I wonder if that is something they will reveal next week or if they will draw it out over the season. I'd like to see that if he does keep it from Sam that it's not intentional and that he isn't aware he is doing it. Like he's telling Sam what he thinks is everything, believing that he is completely on the level but The Darkness will not allow it. Omg I just described Cas and Naomis storyline. Throwing up now. ;)
I also think that Dean is currently in thrall to her. She is supernatural being with tremendous powe and there is a pre-established connection because of the Mark and because she has been with him for over a year, whispering to him and helping him via the Mark.
I think he was laser focused on saving the baby, he even agreed to care for her, and all to willing to let Sam sacrifice himself in a bad plan borne out of Sam’s guilt.
I am glad Sam feels guilt and remorse even if he still would do it all again... heroes care about the consequences of their actions Sammy!
If it was a bad plan no matter what Sam said Dean would have never agreed to it. He is the one who usually calls the shots. Sam came up with a plan which Dean agreed to. I would assume because Sam was right, that killing people (even the deputy was guilt ridden for all of the friends she killed) just for the bigger picture has to stop. Mowing down innocent people no matter how hopeless the situation isn't the way to change their continuous vicious cycle. And yes Sam didn't know he was going to be in a fight for his life as soon as he got into the storeroom? but it wasn't his intention to kill anyone. His intention was to save as many as he could.
Dean's job was to save the baby and the deputy. Because of Sam's sacrifice he was able to do that. Dean didn't seem very angry about getting away and not kill anyone. I am sure he is going to be horrified when he finds out what it cost Sam to save them. But as the guys keep saying they are very much on the same page this year. I will go with that and watch the show knowing that they are going to work together to save as many people as they can. I don't think this season is going to be about the blame game. Dean owned up to his part and Sam owned up to his. Done. Moving on.
I do think that Dean is very much being controlled by the Darkness. That was a little disappointing. I was hoping for no supernatural influence for either brother. But we will see where this goes.
About boys withholding information, I don't think it's a big deal. Why to frighten each other and distract each other from important tasks they face (saving a baby and finding a cure) if it can't be helped at the moment and not to try to figure it out for themseves at first? Not a problem, if it won't last, in my mind.
Sam saw and heard about how violent the rabids were; he knew that the one hammering on the door in the hospital would attack whoever was on the other side and do to them what was done to the family dead in the car. Yet, what did Carver have our hunter do? Sam stood there, gun in hand, keeping out of sight. WHY? Did he hope the infected maniac would simply give up and walk away? Good luck with that one. If the rabid guy hadn't dropped dead, Sam's non-violent approach might well have cost the lives of the people in the closet.
Later, Sam told Dean they shouldn't kill the rabid killers. Instead, Sam insisted, he was going to find a CURE! Now, let's consider the timeline. When the brothers came across the victims of the rabids and the bodies of the infected road crew members killed by the cop, Dean said about two hours had passed since he killed Death. The hospital was just up the road; not long after they arrived, while Dean was sewing up the cop, Sam saw the rabid drop dead in the hospital corridor. So, as Sam pointed out, the rabids have a "shelf life"--a very short one, apparently. So, what was Sam planning to do? Find a computer, look under "Cures for People Infected by the Darkness," throw some chemicals or spells together and cure Mike and the other infected people--all before the rabids dropped dead in a matter of what? Minutes? An hour tops?
And--even though Sam himself said the infected were "not human"--apparen tly he expected the maniacal killers would wait peaceably while he found a cure if only he could reason with them. Thus, after he was attacked in the storage room by an entirely irrational rabid, he said to the trio of others who went for him, "Don't do this. Let me help you." Right. That's just how to discourage a mad dog from tearing you to pieces.
I'm assuming Carver gave us this Sam so that, in the next episode, Dean will be forced to experience his brother's longing to save, rather than kill or let die an infected person--namely Sam himself. But, if that was Carver's goal, he could have come up with a better way to reach it than turning Sam into a complete fool and rank amateur no self-respecting hunter would want on his team.
That's exactly why he waited. If he saw the danger to people, he wouldn't have hesitated. It was shown later, when he killed that rabid woman. The asumption, that Sam was afraid simply preposterous taking into consideration that he lured the whole bunch of them upon himself and even without taking out the gun. He only hoped that as many of them as possible would stay alive until he finds a cure, if he could. I don't know, I admired Sam in this whole episode. You seem to be hypercritical, don't get any offence. :)
If Dean were in his normal headspace as opposed to distracted with The Darkness and everything that has gone on the past several hours - his back to the wall, throwing in the towel, the agreement with Death which resulted in almost killing his brother, the beat down of said brother and the killing of Death knowing that by doing so he was dooming both himself and Sam to the MOC status quo, finding out rather painfully that the spell for the MOC was successfully cast, seeing the cloud, waking up in a field a mile away and being saved by and having a conversation with The Darkness - I'm not so sure he would have gone along with it.
There’s logic and then there’s ...
In relation to containment and seeing how many are infected etc, it's been an episode, so they don't know the scale of it yet. It might be 10 people, it might be 10,000. 'Biblical proportions' are often a very small number in the show. However, it can't all happen at once ie save, kill, cure, contain, scope etc. In this episode they focused on saving.
In the second part of my post I commented in relation to containment, an issue you raised.
However, as you've decided my posts, and the posts of others who have the same ideas as I do, lack common sense and logic perhaps this discussion should end.
Maybe Dean 'throwing in the towel' again is the problem. Killing everything is a sign of defeat, not a sign that you're willing to fight on. I know you've listed out things that might have been on Dean's mind but Sam also had most of that, and more, on his mind as well, and he didn't throw in the towel. He had a plan and he had hope. Something Dean didn't have.
Death didn't throw Sam into the mix, Sam was in the mix from the moment Dean took on the mark. And it ties back nicely to season 8. When Sam believes Dean is dead and at peace, he will try to move on. When Dean is alive and needs help, then Sam will help him. So Death was being entirely logical. If he kills Sam then Dean will do everything he can to bring him back, if he sends Dean into outer space or wherever then Sam will do everything he can to bring him back. Only thing that might stop them from doing that is have one kill the other. Death is Death. If all his decisions and actions were dependent on how people feel then he'd be entirely redundant.
Sam does not have the high ground when it comes to the usual killing first, ask questions later. He has not been the only one that has ever questioned killing. If you think that then we are clearly watching a different show. And since you will most assuredly ask when, here's one. Example: Malleus Maleficarum - Dean: "They're human Sam." Sam: "They're murderers" Now technically there wasn't proof that all of the women were involved in the murder of Janet Dutton, it was more than likely possessed DemonTammy did it all and yet Sam said "they're murderers" clearly ready to take out the bunch. Dean was the one to remind him that they were human. Sam didn't care. Oops!
Death did throw Sam in the mix by making his life a condition to helping Dean. It was a bit ludicrous to think if Dean is on some other planet in some other galaxy that Sam would ever be able to locate him let alone save him. Cas maybe, Sam no.
I never said that Sam has the high ground when it comes to the kill vs save argument. However, in the last few seasons all they do is kill. Sam is right, they need to start thinking about saving people again. And this shows a marked difference between Sam and Dean in the last few seasons, Sam will work to stop bad things from happening (or getting worse), Dean waits until the bad thing has happened (or gotten worse) before he steps in and kills the bad thing.
Your comment on the witches and how Dean reminded Sam they're human is timely. Dean killed many humans in season 10, and they weren't witches. Perhaps they should be used to show just how much the MOC had taken hold of Dean.
It's not the saving or locating that's the problem, it's the process of doing so that creates problems. And do you really think Castiel wouldn't help Dean if Death put him on another galaxy?
How does Sam work to stop things from happening or getting worse? By doing research? What are you talking about? How does Dean wait until the bad thing has happened or gotten worse before he even steps in and kills the bad thing? You mean Mr. Shoot First, Ask Questions Later? Uh, no.
Yes which would make Deaths whole demand of killing Sam moot. And stupid.
Sam tries to stop things from happening like removing the MOC before it gets worse, like being willing to sacrifice one person if it will save others, like being willing to use his powers to stop the apocalypse. Like being willing to get his hands dirty. Best example of this was Jus in Bello (I think) where he was willing to sacrifice Nancy if it meant saving everyone else. To some it's heroic, for others it makes him a monster but he was still willing to make the tough decision in order to save others.
Death demanding Sam's death wasn't only smart but wholly necessary because if Sam is dead then he won't be able to try and save or locate Dean, and Dean will be in outer space so he won't be able to try and save or locate Dean.
But wait according to YOU the prevention of the removal of the MOC in the future is irrelevant since it was Dean's killing of Death that released The Darkness...
And, once again, never said that killing Death is what removed the mark. I won't say again what I said, I've said it enough times.
I feel a slogan coming on. They inspire each other to Always Keep Fighting.
Sam is no coward--far from it. He's extremely brave, smart as a whip, and one of the two best hunters on the planet--which is why I take such strong exception to the way he was presented in the episode. The Sam I know would never have simply stood there holding a weapon, doing nothing to stop a crazed, "not human" killer from breaking open a door and attacking the people on the other side. Sam would have acted as quickly as Dean would have by firing his gun. He's a good shot; he could have aimed for the guy's legs if he didn't want to kill him, but he would have done something to help the people under attack. I know OUR Sam--I happen to be a major fan of both brothers. He would have immediately stepped into the open to attract the infected guy's attention to himself and away from the people in the closet. But, instead, Carver made it look like Sam was taking cover behind a wall. To viewers unacquainted with Sam, he might have seemed like he was protecting himself, which has certainly NEVER BEEN Sam's way.
To my mind, Carver's depiction of Sam in this episode was just as OOC as his depiction of Sam as a guy who'd leave Kevin in the hands of demons and, for an entire year, never respond to his phone messages. That wasn't the real Sam. Neither was the "Sam" of this episode. The Sam we know would have wanted to save the infected, but not by risking the lives of innocent people. Furthermore, he wouldn't have been stupid enough to think he could reason with the infected, much less "cure" them before their shelf life ended in a matter of minutes or hours.
Carver wanted the audience to know that Sam blames himself for unleashing the Darkness that is already costing lives. But there are many ways Carver could have shown that without making Sam look like far less than the intelligent, highly experienced hunter he is.
I am more interested in the fact that Dean let him do it. I think Dean is in thrall to the Darkness and was compelled to save that baby for her. She does tell him that he will save her no Matter what her form.
So in my opinion they both were off.
Dean always cares about the consequences unless he believes they affect him. He doesn’t care what happens to him, he cares about what happens to others.
This season is the start 9 Dam's redemption arc whether you like it or not.
Thank you for pointing that out, Julia. I had thought that was clear from my comment, but apparently I was wrong!
As sad and cruel as what DemonDean said it was also based in truth. IF Sam had never been Mary would still be alive. But then Mary was the one who made the deal so it really all does fall on her but that wouldn't have been as hurtful and DemonDean was going for maximum emotional carnage.
Dean cares about consequences too. But by his own admission he doesn't think things all the way through. I suppose that is why he wants to go back in time and shove the MOC up Cains ass.
Dean's redemption from what?
And Sam declaring he doesn't care about the consequences doesn't really tie with what we see him do, where he thinks of the big picture. What was he meant to do last season, leave a murderous/MOC/d emon Dean run about the place? Huh, you'd think with all the complaining Dean did in season 9 when he believed Sam wouldn't burn the world for him that Dean would be happy.
And I'm glad that this season is the start of the Dean redemption arc because God knows he needs it. It's good that actually listening to Sam for once has put him on that path.
You have inspired me to write an article for TVFTROU that includes the brothers" body counts that result from their choices and actions... Dean taking the Mark and Sam not caring about the consequences of using the spell and removing the Mark. Sam's consequences start last season as he implements his plans, and includes everyone killed as a result of Metatron being released, Rowena having two powerful books and of course all deaths that come from the Darkness being released.
What’s most important is that Dean was not Cain and was not murdering with indiscretion. Sam said Dean was out of control to secure the help of Cas, Bobby and Charlie however it never happened. Just because Sam says something it doesn't mean it's true. If they didn't bother to show it, it's not true. Dean didn’t ever go kill crazy and murder innocent people. Not even when he was a demon. Sam actually didn't want Dean to change and leave him. This is what he talks about whenever he discusses his personal rasons for saving Dean in season 10.
As you recall, Carver discussed that we would need to choose the brother that was the real monster last season. I think they clearly shouted it was Sam from talking Lester into a demon deal, leaving Lester's innocent wife to die, causing Suzie's death, releasing Metatron, threatening a psychic, giving Rowena a powerful magic book that the MOL was keeping safe to prevent witches from using it, ignoring Dean, lying to Dean, creating the situation that hot Charlie killed... then everyone that dies from the Darkness being released this season.
Sam is a veritable big bad. Not saying he's really bad. Not saying he's really a monster. I am saying he behaved emotionallc and selfishly and did care about the consequences for anyone as long as he got his brother back.
It's all very human really and not really heroic.
So yes. It will he a great think piece. Thanks very much for showing me that an article discussing Sam's arc, the consequences of his actions *remember it was a season for consequences), and of course setting the tone for his redemption arc starting this season.
As Gabriel said, Sam thinks Dean is the dysfunctional one but really it is Sam. Unspoken is the fact that Sam is, at his most dysfunctional when confronted with the loss of his brother. That’s the whole point of Mystery Spot isn't it.
And of course it all ended up with Sam paying for his angel and demon manipulated mistakes with his life.
Yeah, and Dean selling his soul because he failed his job
It certainly is important that Dean was not Cain, the Cain we saw when he had the mark had self control. He was keeping bees and living a peaceful, if boring, life. He wasn't going around massacring people or monsters. And if I may take your 'logic' of 'If they didn't bother to show it, it's not true' then things such as Sam scoring high on his SATs didn't happen, or Dean 'doing everything he could' to get Sam out of the Cage didn't happen etc. It happened, fans just need to decide if they believe it. You decided that Dean was just Dean when he had the MOC, I don't. I don't think the Dean that the show is trying to sell as a hero would go into a room and kill all the humans, including one tied to a chair. I don't think he'd knife a human in the heart, even if he was bad. I don't think he'd spend blame his mothers death on a baby or wish his brother dead on a pyre. I don't think he'd chase his brother through the bunker and try to cave in his head with a hammer. You do. Perhaps I think more highly of Dean than you do.
I think his 'personal reasons' stem more from his belief, one reinforced by Dean, that he's not good enough, or honourable enough or worthy enough to save Dean. This is what Dean spent season 8 and 9 holding against, and using against, Sam. Though I agree, Sam didn't want Dean to change, he likes his brother human. I especially don't think he wanted Dean to change into an unkillable, rampant, killing machine. Sam knows Dean would never want this.
I don't think they 'clearly shouted it was Sam' who was the monster (though I don't think for some it needs to be clearly shouted, a tiny whisper of suggestion is all they need to decide Sam is a monster). I think they made us ask questions as to what a 'monster' is. Is it actions or is it consequences, is it killing or is it saving? Is it doing things you know are wrong but benefit inmy yourself or doing things you know are wrong but will benefit others? Looking at your list, there's really nothing there Sam and Dean haven't done before so have they both been monsters from the first season? I know that things like 'ignoring Dean' or 'lying to Dean are enough for some fans to believe Sam needs execution but why doesn't the same apply to Dean? I mean, Dean lies and kills and betrays and ignores others etc too but fans don't blink an eye when Dean does it. Might I suggest that for another article, why do fans have such high expectations of Sam but such low expectations of Dean.
Whats ironic about your statement that Sam behaved emotionally and selfishly is that many fans, yourself included, said the same thing in season 8. Fans, and Dean, have now gotten it both ways. They've gotten it all ways. They've gotten Sam do nothing and they've gotten him do something. They've gotten him do the same as Dean and do different to Dean. They've gotten him follow Dean's orders and not follow Dean's orders. They've gotten him do what they've both agreed to do and there has been the same reaction from many of the fans; Sam is selfish and wrong. Might I suggest that for a third article, what do fans actually want from Sam? Besides being a mindless drone who doesn't question, doesn't think, just strokes Dean's ego, follows orders and takes the responsibility for everything that goes wrong on the show, including Dean's independent decisions.
There's really no need to thank me, PSG. I will get much pleasure from the discussion. However, might I suggest you rewatch the show first because 'Sam is most dysfunctional when confronted with the loss of his brother'? When he was confronted with the loss of his brother in season 8, he settled down, fell in love, got a job and a house. So which is the more dysfunctional, doing nothing or doing something, saving or sacrificing?
In s 6 Dean could have opened the cage himself immediately to get Sam. He didn’t because he had high expectations that bad things for others would come from that. Instead he kept looking and found a way to save Sam's soul with releasing a great evil onto the world.
You cited Dean’s demon deal. Dean took that deal believing the only one hurt by it was him. He had no expectation that he was the first seal of the Apocalypse.
Sam had every expectation that something bad would happen from using the book. I'm fact there was am MOL file on disasters resulting from the book's use. He had every expectation that releasing Metatron could go bad. We don’t even know what horrors Metatron will visit on humanity. Same with Rowena. He knew she was a killer. He used her and gave her two powerfull books regardless of the risks. In all three instances he knew there were risks to his actions. He didn’t care about the consequences. He says it outright to Cas in MBK.
When Dean took on the Mark he wanted to punish himself, just like San wanted to punish himself by his recent plan. He assumed that the curse or burden would affect only him . He was wrong in hindsight but he didn't expect that other people would be killed. He thought b the only consequences to himself.
Dean routinely risks his life and makes decisions believing the best purpose for his life is to go out in combat with whatever big bad is plaguing the earth. He has low self-esteem, something I believe Sam finally started to understand in s 8 in Trial and Error.
In his first arc Sam’s tragic flaw was hubris. This time around it is still hubris but of a different sort. It's tempered by fear and desperation. RUBY suckered him into her plans by priming him with flattery. She told him he was stronger than Dean and the only one that could do it.
Last season he still thought he had to be the one to save Dean but it wasn't to prove he was better than Dean. It was to prevent Dean from changing into something else.. He's visibly panicked until Dean is cured and the panic builds again as he realizes that his brother will become a demon again.
Meanwhile the only person truly trying to help Dean maintain control is Crowley.
They write Sam’s arcs as the tragic hero. It was very obvious I'm s 10 because they wrote the season building on the obvious outcome of his behavior set-up in the first episode. It was obvious he was out of control and his desperation would lead him to do disregard sound council and release something into the world. .. again. Because it was so obvious we became the Greek Chorus screaming at the screen for Sam to stop. It really enhanced the horror.
I don't see why it is so hard to understand that Dean loves Sam as much as Sam loves Dean. And because they can they will do anything to save the other from death. The only time that didn't happen was when Sam stuck with the plan they had agreed to (the one we never heard of) and let Dean go (to presumably rest in peace in heaven) oops. Sam was never going to make that mistake again. And he didn't.
Dean also knew that Sam would be hurt, and hurt greatly, by Dean's demon deal. He did it anyway because he gave precedence to ridding himself of the pain of Sam's death. Season 8 was the same. Dean knew that Sam would be hurt, and hurt greatly, by Dean's actions, but he did it anyway because he gave precedence to ridding himself of the pain of Sam's impending death.
Might I also point out that as much as Dean didn't know that torturing in hell was the breaking of the first seal, Sam had no expectation that saving lives via using his powers would lead to the breaking of the final seal. And neither of them knew that killing Lilith would be that final seal, yet they both wanted Lilith dead. This situation is the same. They both wanted the MOC gone, and both (or any) ensuing actions would have led to consequences. The only thing that wouldn't have had greater consequences was Dean not being led by the nose by Crowley, and leaving the MOC in the much safer hands of Cain.
Of course he had every expectation something bad would happen from using the book, as he had every expectation something bad would happen if he didn't use the book. There's an expectation that something bad would happen no matter what they do. Does that mean they do nothing?
I'm sorry, but I'm one of those people who believes Dean that Dean is pretty intelligent so I really don't think that Dean took on the Mark to punish himself and also the idea that he thought it would only affect himself. He took on the mark of a killer but didn't expect people would be killed!?! Dean isn't that dumb. He took on the mark in order to kill. His aim was to kill Abbadon, a demon who was, at that stage, a two bit demon minding her own business, who they had stopped with ease before that, so why it necessitated Dean taking on a biblical mark I'll never know. And when Dean did get to kill, he brutalised. No quick knife to the heart ala Amy any more.
The taking on the MOC epitomises what is wrong with Dean and his 'guilt'. He doesn't face it, he avoids it. Dean didn't take on the mark because he felt guilty. If he felt truly guilty he'd have stayed with his brother, tried to make amends or at least explain why. Taking on the mark enabled him to not give any importance to what he had done to Sam or how it affected him. It's pure avoidance on Dean's part. That is what is so annoying about Dean's 'guilt'. It's all talk. He feels guilty about what he does but not guilty enough to change what he does. Because what he does gets Dean what he wants so the guilt he feels is a more than acceptable consequence of that.
Sam wanted to punish himself, how? By saving Dean and saving the world from Dean?
"Dean routinely risks his life and makes decisions believing the best purpose for his life is to go out in combat with whatever big bad is plaguing the earth." This quote here actually sums up the problem, it's all about Dean and what Dean wants. He just wants to be a hero. And Dean consistently doing what he wants to get what he wants is what (inadvertently) is the first domino that leads to the big bad that plagues the earth.
All characters on the show have low self-esteem, not just Dean so Im not sure why it's used to try and excuse Dean's deliberate choices.
Sam's tragic flaw is extreme pride? Since when? This is the guy who believes he's the least of all of them, that he was always unworthy of going on a quest. Sam went with Ruby because she showed him a way to kill demons while saving the hosts. (Perhaps Sam's biggest flaw is believing he can save lives?). After their break up he returned to Ruby to try and stop the seals from being broken. You say Sam suffers from hubris because he believed he was the only one who could do it, but the angels were telling Dean that he was the only one who could do it, and he believed them. He told Sam that he was going to be the one to kill Lilith. So, Dean = hubris?
And last season wasn't about preventing Dean from changing into something else because Dean had already changed into something else. Perhaps if he hadn't taken on the MOC and hadn't knocked Sam out while he went to Metatron alone things might be different but hey, Dean's choices.
Crowley wasn't helping Dean to maintain control, he was trying to control Dean.
Torturing demons is now out of control? Jeez, so when is the last time Sam and Dean were in control because torturing is very often the first step in what they do. And sound council from whom, the MOC affected Dean? Everyone else was working with Sam.
There really wasn't chorus screaming at Sam to stop, at least no more than there was when Dean inexplicably took on the MOC (though that was more comedy of errors than Greek tragedy). What many fans were looking for, and not getting, was a reason for Sam to stop. Well, a reason besides 'Coz Dean said so'.
And then if Sam stopped there would have been chorus screaming at him to continue ('Because Dean is getting worse') or chorus screaming because he stopped ('How dare he give up on Dean like that. Sam always quits, just like he did in season 8') or just chorus screaming because it's Sam. And I do wonder how much of that 'chorus screaming' were screams of delight because if the finger of blame can be pointed in any way at Sam, then there's less time to point the finger of blame at Dean, who was, and is, no less culpable than Sam was.
Quote: Seriously?!! Threatening people is Dean's bread and butter move. Remember, that's why HE was the one infected with the ghost sickness in Yellow Fever, rather than Sam. I'm not saying it isn't warranted in some /many cases, but your inclusion of "threats" in your catalogue of bad acts by SAM demonstrates how extreme your bias against him is.
My guess is Amara will cure the veiny thing but Sam will assume it was his prayers alone. See what I did there per Snow's fabulous crazy idea!!!
;)
You're also right about Amara. Evidently, she took the body of a baby and infected the road crew just so Dean would arrive at the hospital and become her protector. Possibly, she'll return the favor by saving Dean's brother from insanity and death. But what's behind this? Does she have to be bound to Dean, or does she simply want to be bound to Dean?
Well wouldn't you want to be bound to Dean? ;)
Sorry couldn't resist.
Jared does a great job with that kind of story so I would be on board for that.
That is so true Anonymous. Soulless Sam and demon blood Sam and every other iteration of Sam was mostly interesting. But the writers sure shortchanged Jensen with Demon Dean and MOC Dean. For the most part, it was quite dull. Although I loved DD in Reichenbach and in Soul Survivor. But MOC Dean was generally a snooze. No wonder Jensen was ready to be done with it.
We don’t see that from Sam and historically we haven’t despite making some pretty bad decisions with a lot of forewarning from multiple characters. He doesn’t listen and disaster strikes. They have pretty much stuck him in the role of a classic tragic
hero with a big tragic flaw that prevents them from seeing the truth until it's too late.
Hopefully this is the last round of this and Carver will give him a proper redemption arc and character growth.
It doesn't bother me so much. It kind of keeps Sam a little mysterious. Dean is exactly what you see. A dynamic that seems to work.
The set-up with the crowd of goons outside the building if from John Carpenter's Assault on Precinct 13. The film is, from the seventies however it is extremely influential. In it Four survivors escape from an abandoned police station by shooting their way out through a mass of goons. Tarentino/Rodri guez borrowed it in From Dusk til Dawn, Gamble riff ed on it in Jus in Bello and Carver also uses it and hearken to the earlier work with a very Carpenter like shot of a mass of station are goons watching the building. English masse. It's a classic Carpenter shotm he use it in Assault on Precinct 13 and Prince of Darkness.
I repeat if it were a good plan Sam wouldn't have been immediately infected and have to defend himself with killing.
Sam feels guilty and responsible, as he should,
and Dean surprisely let's Sam sacrifice himself because he's laser focused on saving the Darkness 'baby.
Yes it would be great to save whenever they can but this wasn't a demon tied to a tree that could be exorcised. This was a mob with intent to infect and probably kill the baby.
But hey. We watch the show differently.
That was my take on the siege. And Carvers re set of the series. Save the people like Dean did in the jail not just plow through them with little to no regard.
Sam's plan was a good one in that it achieved the aim; getting the baby and the officer out of the hospital unscathed and without killing all the infected. Was there going to be potential repercussions? Of course. It's part of the job. However, there was no difference in Sam's actions here than there was in Wendigo back in season one, when he distracted the monster and put himself between it and the people he was trying to save.
And those infected are not necessarily mindless killers who need to be killed, they can be spoken to and reasoned with. We saw that with Amaras father.
If I recall that was Dean's plan to distract the Wendigo to enable Sam to get the others out. And ooh lookey there, shoot first, ask questions later murderous Dean killed it too.
The rabids that were attacking Sam didn't look too chatty to me. Maybe it will turn out that some are able to be saved or are partially immune later but all it takes is one to kill or infect you. In Croatoan if you were infected they were going to take you out first. The only time Sam threw a card was when they weren't sure if Dwayne was infected or not. He was perfectly fine with Dean wasting the woman that was.
If it was just a matter of stopping Dean from continuing to kill indiscriminatel y then Death could just have done what Sam and Dean did with Doc Benton and encased him in concrete underground. Dean presumably told Death that Sam was looking for a cure, and even if he didn't Death knows Sam enough to know that he would be. Dean certainly knew that Sam was looking for a cure. Deaths solution to send Dean into space raises the possibility that proximity is an issue ie that even if there was a cure, Dean would physically be beyond the reaches of getting it.
Yes, so distraction works. And when the Wendigo found the survivors, Sam risked himself to save them. As he did here, risked himself to save others. Because as Sam is trying to get Dean to understand, it's not just about them. It's about saving other people. However, 11 seasons have gone by. They now have the knowledge and often the means to save rather than just kill. They just choose to not do it. If Sam and Dean had the ability to cure demons and vampires and werewolves then that's another way to save people. If that were a demon and not a Wendigo, wouldn't the best course of action have been an exorcism and not a demon blade? The same applies to your Croatoan example, Sam and Dean aren't the same as they were then so the end result doesn't need to be the same. It will only be the same if they choose not to try and save them.
I'm not sure what the point of your 'Oh looky...... murderous Dean' comment was. I'm criticising Dean for killing. Sometimes killing is necessary in order to save, but sometimes it's not. Sam's point, and my point, is that it is time to think about saving people, and that can also be established by not killing. But don't worry, there are still 22 episodes of the show left for Dean to kill whoever and whatever he wants. I don't expect Sam's words or request to have a lasting impact on Dean.
Yes, all it takes is one infected to kill you, or one vampire, or one demon, or one werewolf etc but Sam and Dean hunt anyway. If Sam and Dean were so concerned about their lives then they wouldn't hunt at all.
And while I'm reading up on canon, could you read up on 'interpretation '?
I can certainly see where Sam had no grounds for his words in the Purge and how mean he was to poor Dean.
And just so you know my feelings for what Dean did to Sam a very strong so it is best to leave it there .
And Dean did risk others, he risked Sam. And he risked Kevin.
And Sam would be lucky if Dean purged his emotions with just hunting. Unfortunately he doesn't.
And Dean did risk others, he risked Sam. And he risked Kevin.
And Sam would be lucky if Dean purged his emotions with just hunting. Unfortunately he doesn't.
And Dean did risk others, he risked Sam. And he risked Kevin.
And Sam would be lucky if Dean purged his emotions with just hunting. Unfortunately he doesn't.
Marie the know nothing about the Darkness. If Sam is cured it will be because of Supernatural help. Sam could not possibly come up with a cure in this short time for an unknown supernatural phenomenon by himself. See he immediately was bitten and infected because it was not a good plan for that situation.
And you don't know that Sam can't come up with a cure in a short period of time. He's pretty resourceful. And while we know that he doesn't die (because TV show), if he did then at least he'd have tried and he'd go out still trying to save people, not just killing things.
Sam dying or not had nothing to do with it because Sam had already set his plan into motion.
Sharon, there was no MOL file telling Dean that Gadreel was Ezekiel, or that Metatron would manipulate him into killing Kevin. However he did save Cas and, Charlie. .. so I guess that decision is still plus 1 life... lol.
Everyone didn't tell Sam it was a bad idea. It was agreed by everyone (Dean included) that the mark needed to be removed. Dean was delighted when they found the BotD, he started planning ahead and everything. It was only when Dean got a bad vibe from the book that he didn't want Sam using the book. (Shades of season 4 again, Dean wants the end game but doesn't want the action). There was no alternative plan, there was just Dean giving up (shades of season 5, ala Michael. Dean's 'plan' is to give up and let everyone else deal with the mess).
A 'plan' was necessary from the moment Dean took the mark from Cain. Would there have been a need for the Mark to be removed if Cain still wore it? No. The Darkness would still be locked away. However, if Dean had killed Sam perhaps the mark wouldn't have been removed, perhaps Dean would have been too far away for the spell to have an impact.
Dean, as we saw from season 9 when he took on the mark, has the restraint if a young pup when it comes to killing. He enjoys it too much to want to stop and the mark gave him the freedom to kill on a mass scale. Dean was a biblical disaster of epic proportions (as Cain originally was) and that is entirely on Dean.
In relation to Ezekiel/Gadreel and what Dean didn't know, if I put a loaded gun in the hands of a child I don't know they're going to kill someone, but I still know putting the gun there in the first place is wrong and I aware there could be consequences. Sorry Psg, Dean doesn't get to play dumb on this one as well.
It's interesting about Charlie. She was alive when she shouldn't have been, and now she's dead. I guess the universe does balance itself out.
Nobody thinks it is as simple as Dean bad and Sam always good but neither is it a case of Sam always bad and Dean always good which is also a impression that can come across from certain fans .
Characters dealing with the consequences of their actions was a big deal to Carver lady season and obviously this one too since Sam is getting one huge wake-up call. Hey but at least Dean isn’t a demon. He's just the, Darkness'boytoy .
Agree with you about the title card.It was not something spectacular.
Also agree with you about why the infedarked people did not kill Sam as they came to know that he was one of them and he put two and two together and went to a mirror to confirm.
Now as many are telling it is a two parter ..but this episode did raise some questions...qui te interesting ones .... Hope one or two are answered in the next episode and remaining ones are slowly revealed.
Not eagerly waiting for the next episodes like the first five seasons ..but am mildly interested in the next episode.
castiel's fight scene and the chased by bullet scenes were meh ...But the other scenes were good.
Crowley's pre orgy scene was over acted by the three other participants(ma ybe TPTB wanted it over the top).Crowley actress was good. and the final crowley scene was also good.
Was waiting for your review and it was worth the small waiting period.
It's fundamentally wrong to put your needs ahead of the greater good. It's morally wrong not to care about the body count or collateral damage of your plan. Anyone that cares about human life would nor have taken the risks that Sam did.
I Don’t understand how this basic concept can be missing from any discussion of Sam’s willingness to save Dean at any cost. That’s not responsible behavior and definitely not heroic behavior. It's highly dysfunctional behavior.
This has nothing to do with hating Sam. He crossed a line in the sand that should never have been crossed.
I was just reading some of the quotes from Torcon this morning and the J's actually said something that I found so appropriate to this marathon discussion. First Rule in SPN is Don't Discuss SPN. This is very much politics and religion. No one is ever going to agree because each person is dead certain that they are right. It's an endless merry-go-round and I can see by several posts above and below it has gotten pretty nasty. I am not the WFB police but everyone may want to take a breath. This isn't ever going to be resolved so probably should let it go.
Not really the kind of spirit that Jensen and Jared want to promote with their show but I find it amusing that they understand their fans.
Dean vehemently told Sam and Cas not to do it. This is a rehash of Sam and Ruby where Sam thinks he knows better than Dean and oops! Lucifer is released and DARKNESS IS RELEASED by Sam's actions.
Dean said they would look for other actions. There was no urgency.
If you don't understand the words that are written in the script I really don't want to discuss the show with you. It's like Supernatural 101. Sorry. Learn the canon. Read the trabscripts.
I've already gone through Sam's actions with another poster, and pointed out they were nothing different to anything he and Dean had done before. You probably missed it.
If you watch that season again ..you will see both Dean and Sam wanted to kill Lilith...The problem he had with sam was him going with Ruby.But itseems many Dean fans are just hurt that Sam was right.Dean was not powerful enough to kill Lilith ..and was taken on a ride by the angels.Poor fans , must have been heart shaattering to know that Dean was not powerful like the angels told him...they lied so that they could Dean on board.And it worked.
Dean broke the first seal ,Dean took on the mark.Sam broke the last Seal and Rowena (who was in sam's team) cast the spell to remove the mark.
If Sam ended the procedure for getting Lucifer ,Dean started the procedure.That honor goes to Dean and Dean alone.
Transcripts only say a part about what happened ..inflection is very very important.Thing is I am surprised that it is lost on a person who writes for a website.Maybe there are some 101s you missed.
There us a transcript for every episode of Supernatural.
If you read all of them from the second half if season 10 you will see that Sam decided he would use the BotD. He exaggerated Dean’s condition. .. I say this because he gave no concrete examples as to why he thought this, and his body language as he convinced his friends to help was that of a luar. He doesn’t look in their eyes and he fidget uncomfortably. Whatever. Then we see Sam loose control of things. We see him make terrible decisions like working with Rowena and giving her a powerful codex that he basically stole from the MOL causing someone's death. Nearly dying himself to get it. Charlie dies. Cas destroys his bond with heaven. Bobby is in the dighouse. Everything wasn't shown for funsies. It was shown so the viewer knew that Sam was on a bad road. Hell even Bobby told him to get clean with Dean. Just like in s 4 Sam lies to Dean and does things that he knows Dean will find wrong. It's far far worse than his behavior so we know the outcome will be far far worse than releasing Lucifer. Hey! It was!!!
Sam's story wasn't the story of heroically saving his brother. It was the story of a man who selfishly pursued a path that put his friends and the entire world at risk. He ignored all of the signs because he didn't care who was hurt by his actions. And at the end of the story, before causing the release of the very bad thing, he vehemently declares that he doesn’t care about the consequences. He will deal with the later. Poor Sammy doesn’t like the "later" in this story.
It was a great ride. Perfect for a horror show for a main character to become a veritable monster. Too bad you missed it all.
I think I forgot to post this for Marie. It's the transcript for MBK.
Dean was stupid not to hear Cain out. Of course we Don’t know what Cain considered to be the curse or burden. Biblically speaking cain's curse was that he couldn't be killed. That may have been the downside for Cain. He did tell Dean he wanted him to kill him
Dean told Sam not to use the, BotD multiple times. Good lord the spell required a human sacrifice. Of course it's not good! Just like drinking demon blood wasn't good m there's a serious morality issue that Sam seems Able to cross without any remorse or second guessing. I guess you all call this his lack of pov... lol.
The thing is we see Dean struggle with difficult decision like allowing Ezekiel access to Sam’s body. We see him suffer because of his actions, like kevin's death and we see him try to atone... sometimes in misguided ways driven by remorse and self hatred, like taking on a Mark so he can carry out a mission and do some good for the world.
Sam actually stepped into Dean’s shoes of remorse, guilt and, atonement in out of the Darkness m it was beautiful to see. Sorry y'all missed it.
Dean never wore those shoes, it was always sam .Sam has the courage to wear them ..Dean did not atone for breaking the first seal..Dean never atoned for getting Kevin Killed or for getting the mark .Dean killed a human who was innocent for his revenge.
By killing Franken boy Dean abdicated the position of a hero.Quote: No..no I just call it you having selective memory.Why simply tell us what we think.Ask us what we think of your selective reporting of things happening on the show we will definitely give our POV.
Death wants Sam killed so he won't try to save Dean. Apparently Death didn't know the spell was already in process.
Also Sam is responsible for his own actions. If you decide to kill me because you think I am mean to Sam is not my fault for saying what I believe. It's your decision. Ean is not his brother’s keeper he is not responsible for Sam’s decisions, his a tons or the consequences of those actions.
Please tell me when Dean has done something that released a global big bad. Please tell me when Dean has done something that he knew would cause global harm after an MOL file and his brother provided evidence that there would be disastrous consequences. The comparison for what Sam has done twice because he refuses to listen to Dean and apparently does not care who dies does not exist. This far Dean hasn’t done that.
He has, dine things, that turned out poorly but at the time he believed he would suffer. Like selling his soul. Like getting the Mark. Like trusting an angel he thought he had vetted through Cas. An angel who had saved his life and spoken of their duty to humanity. In every instance he had minutes to make a decision. He didn’t have anyone handing him evidence that it was bad. But whatever. I really don't care if you completely miss the story.
Getting that was the cataylst for everything else that happened so yes I do think Dean as some culpability with what happened with the Darkness and its release.
No offence but you seem to have Dean so high up on pedestal that even God could not even reach him and it is just not realistic .
So you like to make excuses for Dean's behavior, just as others make excuses for many of Sam's transgressions, of which there are many. But, since you asked a direct answer, I will provide a direct answer - some are in answer to your question, others are thoughts on some topics that have come up in this discussion thread.
1 - Dean sold his soul for Sam, went to hell, and ended up breaking the first seal; there wouldn't have been a 66th seal if the first seal didn't break.
2 - Dean went off in Season 5, willing to be Michael's vessel, knowing the collateral damage of the battle between Michael and Lucifer would be enormous.
3 - Dean violated his brother by shoving an angel in him, which directly led to Kevin's death. And, to top that off, he told Sam in The Purge that he'd do the same thing all over again
You know, Sam, I saved your hide back there. And I saved your hide at that church... And the hospital. I may not think things all the way through. Okay? But what I do, I do because it's the right thing. I'd do it again.
4 - Dean took on the Mark of Cain, with no interest whatsover in hearing Cain's warning, then has the nerve to complain about it to Sam by shifting some of the blame to Cain?
DEAN - Just like I can't strap on a time machine, go back, and tell Cain to shove that Mark up his ass or stop you from releasing the darkness.
CAIN - Yes. But you have to know with the mark comes a great burden. Some would call it a great cost.
DEAN - Yeah, well, spare me the warning label. You had me at "kill the bitch".
5 - Along with all the monsters, Dean killed a lot of humans in Season 10. Some may or may not have "deserved it" but I don't think Rudy deserved to die, and I sure as hell don't think Dean was in the position to be judge and jury. And yes, even though the vampire stabbed Rudy, that was all on Dean. So either the effects of the Mark of Cain weren't as bad as Sam was saying, which many have argued, in which case the argument that it was more Dean than the Mark of Cain when he killed all those humans. If that's the argument, it doesn't paint Dean in a very favorable light.
However you should be holding yourself to a higher standard as a writer for the site.
I think Sam's body stack will catch up to Dean’s by episode 2 and every one of those people were inmocents. Suzie was innocent. Oskar was innocent, Charlie was innocent.
As far as Kevin goes, your argument is post hoc ergo propter hoc; it is a logical fallacy. Metatron may have wanted to him dead but may not have had the means or opportunity. Dean's actions either led to, or strongly contributed to (depending on your POV) Kevin's death. Just as Sam's actions strongly contributed to Charlie's death. At the time, the bunker was still a pretty safe place so Kevin was reasonably safe there. It only turned in to Grand Central Bunker in Season 10.
'WAAAH people say mean things about Dean and not about Sam.'
*turns around*.
'Dean is not responsible for anything ,Sam is.'This is the pattern I have seen.
I can’t wrap my head around the fact that you all are okay with Sam agreeing to human sacrifice. How can that be okay.
And yet Dean refers to commit human sacrifice, even with the Mark, and everything is his fault.
You my dear are the one with the abrasive snark.
Marie, I did not mean to offend you. I assumed that you are one of those fans whose ferls, get in the way with paying attention to the dialogue. I mean they explain it 4 times then show it happening. I also assumed that you didn't bother to read the transcript.
I am out of here.
Well reviews on some site ...and well some people think they are good.The sheer arrogance.
Furthermore it was clearly Alastair's duty to break the first seal. He them proceeded to break many others. It's funny how it all fits beautifully when it is canon.
As for John. .. our only source for that is Alastair. The fact that he escaped hell so easily in AHBL2 indicates that this is a lie as well as the fact that Michael went back in time to protect his OT vessel in TSRTS. Dean was the righteous man mot John.
But whatevet. At least Dean didn't sanction human sacrifice.
Quote: Here you have been instructing people to read transcripts ad nauseam, telling people that all of your claims and "facts" (and I use the term quite loosely) are in accordance with canon, and you have even cast aspersions on Marie's grasp of the English language and her ability to comprehend what she is seeing on her TV screen. (when in fact her comments have been well-reasoned and beautifully written, while your disjointed ramblings have made me wonder if English is your second language). Yet now when njspnfan actually refers to honest to God canon to rebut your claim that Dean was the first seal, you say that Alastair was lying!!! So canon is ONLY canon if we first ensure that PSG believes the character was speaking the truth. Beyond the staggering hypocrisy of your statement, it is just so preposterous that I'm now firmly convinced you are a troll.
Sometimes when you wish for thing to be true we get selective memory and assign selective weight to things that we see .But that yeah for a person who has degree in english is simply immune to all these things.:DOh and multiple graduate degrees:D:D
Since you enjoy bringing up canon, here is the conversation.
ALASTAIR - You know, it was supposed to be your father. He was supposed to bring it on. But, in the end, it was you.
DEAN Bring what on?
ALASTAIR Oh, every night, the same offer, remember? Same as your father.
DEAN shakes salt onto the blade of Ruby's knife.
ALASTAIR And finally you said, "Sign me up." Oh, the first time you picked up my razor, the first time you sliced into that weeping bitch... That was the first seal.
DEAN You're lying.
ALASTAIR And it is written that the first seal shall be broken when a righteous man sheds blood in hell. As he breaks, so shall it break.
DEAN turns away.
ALASTAIR We had to break the first seal before any others. Only way to get the dominoes to fall, right? Topple the one at the front of the line.
DEAN Hell, maybe you're right. I mean, look, I'm not exactly Mister Innocent in this whole mess either, you know. I did break the first seal.
Now sanctioning human sacrifice is a sign of being on the wrong path and out of control. UT you all seem to think that's what loving brothers do for each other.
Dean told Rudy to go home because he would get killed.
Sam had Charlie come out of hiding which put herself in harm's way.
Again which brothere wasn't thinking Clearly. Which brother was out of control. Which brother didn't care about collateral damage.
Which brother is getting a redemption arc.
Which brother still has the mytharc.
Which brother refused to perform the human
sacrifice Death requested.
Which brother insisted his team perform the human sacrifice the BotD required more quickly.
Dean killed Rudy..what he siad to Rudy means zilch.
Sam prays to god, Sam atones for his sins, he takes responsibility for his part and acts on finding a solution to the problem.Dean says sorry and he is done.Dean never redeems himself for his crimes .That is what is the problem with the character Dean.
Your sad attempt to insult me makes me laugh, as does ... well everything you say.
Spoiler: you do know that Sam prays to god for help because it's his fault. Maybe don't watch next week.
I do not know about anyones qualification and unless I have hard proof i do not believe in anything anyone claims.That is me.
And someone graduating in a english and other subjects does not make them an authority on supernatural.
And now I am really and truly getting off the hamster wheel..maybe;)
Dean is not a non contributing factor in events that happen and regardless of whether Sam says it is his fault ( that is Sam) Dean does hold some blame as well and his fingers are just as deep in the pie. The Dean and Sam you want to present are not the ones others see including myself .
Still afraid to read the transcript. Still dispute solid grammar. Still forget that Cas told Dean he was meant to be the first seal. Please. Silly silly wabbit.
I don’t care what you say because neither your behavior or commentary has earned my respect.
Yeah but looks like I have struck a nerve.:D:D:D:D: D.Awwww you care for me.
I am clogging this thread with my rants?lol:D:D:D :D:D:D.Funny you telling me this.Rant?....ooookay
You dont respect me?:(:(:(:(:(Oh man my life's purpose is lost.NNNOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOO.Why god why?
But what can I say I have a big heart. I can understand the pain of fans wanting a redemption story for Dean and not getting it.See even now even after 10 long seasons no redemption story for Dean.Now I know chances are slim that Dean will get redemptionstory for taking on the mark or for killing franken boy (so horrendous...Ju st a hero of the show killing an innocent..I digress).But I truly hope Dean gets a decent redemption story..that are 10 seasons worth you know...I hope the show runners do not disappoint me.The problem is I worry that in the need to just omit the part where Dean took on the mark..Dean killed an innocent (just monstrous) the fans just turn blind to the brilliant and rare Dean redemption story that's going to grace our television screens.
But thank you SanmandDean10 for your wishes.It's wishes like these that make me soldier on.
Quote:
And that's been the problem from S9 on. Lots of telling, not much showing. (actually... they haven't even done much telling) Let's face it, world building, ground-rules laying, etc is NOT the time to be subtle. That IS the time to be obvious and forthright about things.0
Quote: See above. The show forgot that because it had decided to not bother with showing any more (or much telling). See it's all related. Like a cascade...
Quote:
x1000
Quote: He lied? Ok at first I thought maybe he did but then I rewatched the scene and I actually think he wasn't lying. I think "I'll get infected, and I'll figure out how to cure." actually WAS part of Sam's plan. And yeah, I think Dean let him go along with it. Whether because he has faith Sam will figure it out or because some of that brotherly bridge is still singed a bit from last season I leave others to debate.
Quote: You take that back! That was an awesome plot! Just... not as tightly plotted as it could have been.
Quote: A plot device.
Quote:
Are you kidding? I hope so because right now the show is a lot like Baby at the end of season 1. They're going to have to strip her down and rebuild her basics to get her running and purring again. THEN they can take off and drive in any direction they please.
But first they gotta clean the wreck.
JEn! Fantastic post. The episode was very intriguing and full of hints that something isn't ad it appears. I think the baby and the woman are one and the same. I like your idea too. On IMBD Snow Leopard is wondering if both are actually God who had been missing since forever. Time will tell. I predict that things that seem obvious will not be. There will be twists y'all.
In s 4 and, s 10, if Sam had listened to Dean no Apocalypse. No Apocalypse 2.0.
They are better together, n'est-ce pas.
Never said Dean doesn’t make mistakes. They just don't involve literally releasing Lucifer to start the Apocalypse or releasing Darkness and unmasking creation. After all, God's first act was to part the Darkness... Let there be light.
But sorry by using capitalized letters I was not declaring my authority. I only mentioned my background because a teen meanie tried to belittle my writing. And I will not back down as to the fact that there is no other interpretation than what is clearly outlined in the transcript FOUR TIMES for how the Darkness was released. Even Sam understood it and he only had it explained to him once...lol.
I tried to appeal to CC as a staff writer to please help change the tone of the discussion. But deaf ears and all. My comment about the day and a half was really in the vein of everyone was getting so exhausted that tempers were really going to flare if the conversation didn't change and unfortunately they did. In no way did I imply that she was the only one dragging this out.
My last post was in response to CC who pointed out the she was a staff writer and that she please consider that she is entitled to her opinion but so are others. However her tone should carry more gravitas to help keep the discussion civil.
Having been bullied off the other site I know what it is like to have the least popular opinion. And I don't think I at least have been passive aggressive or disrespectful to you or CC in any way. Sorry if you got that impression.
Funny story about your friend and capitalization. I myself recently had a run in with someone on another board who was upset because I was YELLING AT HER and she felt the need to educate me on the finer points of Twitter etiquette. I had to tell her that sadly, capitalization was used for emphasis long before social media/Twitter was ever on the scene. ;)