On the surface, “Paint It Black” was not a particularly intense or memorable episode. It was quieter and slower, but that’s probably okay once in a while.  Several tweeters commented that they were bored and I have to admit that it was difficult to think of anything exciting to live tweet! This story didn’t have shocking scenes or plot twists. The deaths were predictable and the climactic attack on Dean with Sam racing to save the day wasn’t particularly moving.  Upon rewatch, though, there were parallel stories and foreboding incidents that were actually rather significant. I detected clues for the rest of this season and possibly season 11! I was excited to see this second layer of meaning, and I’m anxious to share it with you!

Crowley and Hell

I’m glad Crowley didn’t go off the deep end in response to Dean’s betrayal in “The Executioner’s Song”, nor to Rowena’s tiresome, endless goading that Crowley is the Winchesters’ “bitch” (her whining is really annoying!). I was actually relieved to see Crowley conducting Hell’s business as usual. His stability was evidence that he hasn’t become a mindless sap, easily addled by either his own emotions or his mum’s manipulation. His tactic of resolving his court’s problem (and thus his problem) by solving his mother’s problem was the resourceful, scheming, smart Crowley we’ve all come to love. It was also reassuring to hear him say:  “My relationship with the Winchesters is my business. I’ll handle them. I’m not killing them.” I sense a possible future alliance between Team Free Will and the King of Hell. Still, his reticence and constant, brooding self-reflection is either an indication of his unhappiness or his loneliness. The nuns’ discussion of loneliness seemed to echo true for Crowley’s situation. It is difficult to predict if he is desperately clinging to the only allies, if not friends, he has, or if he is holding them in his back pocket for some future chess move. After all, he is the only one who “never underestimates the Winchesters!”  

As for Rowena, she has gone out of her way to eliminate everyone who Crowley trusts. It was interesting that before she knew anything about the Men of Letters (MoL), she continued to berate “those Winchesters”, and Crowley’s association with them. She obviously sees Sam and Dean as enemies because they are a threat to her control over Fergus. They have and could again be Crowley’s allies. Before this week, I had glossed over her constant complaints about them but now I think her obsession with the brothers reveals more of her ultimate plan. Yes, she wants complete psychological control over her son, and thus his dominion, but she also doesn’t want anyone around who can help Crowley if HE were in trouble. Rowena told Olivette:
Rowena: I’m capable of greatness. Given free reign, I’d be unstoppable.

Right now she is positioning herself for some kind of coup. No doubt she wants power. The question is whether her plan includes her son being with her or out of her way.

This week’s episode also let us know a little more about why Rowena was on the outs with the coven:
Olivette: I do not grovel before she who laid with the non-magic and hatched his spawn.  We thought you would outgrow your wretched, selfish ways but, oh no, they just grew out of control.

So the birth of Fergus MacLeod cost Rowena her career. Maybe her comment “I will not apologize for being a career woman” a few weeks back goes a lot deeper than we knew at the time. Is her backstory turning into another study of monsters and their families? Are we supposed to eventually sympathize with a woman who was scorned because she defied orders and fell in love, bore an illegitimate, muggle love-child who grew up to be royalty? Is anyone else thinking of Lady Jessica from Dune right now?

MoC

04

I am going to venture into dangerous territory here, but I saw definite parallels between Sr. Isabella’s story and the dedication between Sam and Dean. Listen to her words, considering the lengths to which both Sam and Dean will go to save each other:
Sr. Isabella: There is not much difference between madness and devotion. I was obsessed with him. We shared each other’s secrets. We were on the same road. Magic can be ruinous, especially if the trick is on you.
In this context, Sr. Isabella and Sr. Mathias were speaking of the magic of love. The reference to “on the same road” cannot be incidental. Sam and Dean physically and metaphorically are always on the same road together, and they are fiercely devoted to each other, sometimes to their ruin. I am not thinking of “Sam/Dean” but of the brotherly, desperate co-dependence they have on each other. When Sam was dying from the trials, Dean’s love for him drove Dean to agree to Sam’s possession. Initially in this case, the trick was on Sam, but Dean’s guilt over the secret, backlash, and collateral damage caused him to rashly accept the Mark of Cain. Now the trick is on Dean. Isabella’s story climaxed when she felt she had been betrayed by her trusted companion and she killed him in a fit of rage. Isabella’s symbolic substitution for Dean foreshadows once again that Dean will stab Sam to death with a blade. Is anyone keeping track of how many times the show has told us this is going to happen?

New Threads (i.e. Things That Seemed Significant)

There was a lot of exposition in “Paint it Black”, so much so that it got weighed down with delivering messages and setting up new plot lines. The degree of finesse with which new arcs were introduced doesn’t negate their importance, however.

MoL Bunkers (plural!) - I was actually uncomfortable watching what seemed like senseless and contrived woman-on-woman violence in the “conversation” between Olivette and Rowena. Something about it bothered me. It was out of character for Rowena to get physical like that. It would have been much more believable if she would have used spells to extract information rather than the distasteful, manual effort of a beating. She obviously knew the “Cruciatus” curse (a second parallel to Harry Potter’s world of magic!), and how to explode objects, rearrange faces and cause terrifying visions (e.g. Crowley’s nightmare). A witch who took pride in her skills and felt superior to the high priestess of the coven would have mockingly used her talents not her fists to torture her nemesis. Rowena also didn’t muss her hair, break out in a sweat or get bruised hands from her time with Olivette. If we look past the missed opportunity for a more interesting scene, the information that was delivered was significant:
Olivette: The coven is a mere relic of its past power, weakened by witch hunts, burning at the stake, endless persecution and all of it was engineering by them. A rabid group of sanctimonious do-gooders dedicated to our downfall. They plundered our spells and secrets and shipped them to hidden bunkers all around the world. They tried to destroy our world, hoarding unbelievable power for their own amusement... Men of Letters.

There is more than one bunker! The US bunker doesn’t have the entirety of knowledge to fight the supernatural! It is possible that other men of letters are still alive and that alliances could be created! While the possibility of reconnecting with a network of MoL survivors and bunkers - and vastly expanded knowledge - was a bombshell suddenly introduced by awkwardly dropping it out of blue, it’s still a game changer for the Supernatural universe. This could easily set up a series of new plots that bridge into future seasons. I wonder if the fact that Charlie was sent to Italy was a precursor to this development. Might Sam get Charlie involved with the Italian/European MoL contingent? Could she be their on-going international contact and connection with other MoL chapters? Could this be Charlie’s new mission in life? That would certainly give her a rational and believable reason to be in future seasons (after all, how many times can she go to Oz?).

As convenient as it seems, I don’t believe the expanded MoL network will be used to help Sam find a cure for the Mark of Cain. I think it’s too soon, too convenient and too easy. After all, the boys don’t yet know about the network. Rowena will probably blurt out that information in some crucial moment right before her death. It seems more likely that this thread will be slowly developed, carefully working it into the series’ extension. In any case, with one word, “bunkers”, this episode significantly expanded Supernatural canon.

Suicides – This is the second episode in a row in which someone has committed suicide. In both “Paint it Black” and “The Things They Carried”, the suicides were supernaturally induced, i.e. the people did not control their mind or their bodies when they took their own life. Last week we drew the parallel between the Khan worm and the Mark of Cain. Just as the Khan worm drove people to suicide, might this foreshadow that the Mark of Cain will drive Dean to try to take his own life? We discussed this possibility last week, but the continued emphasis on suicides seems suspicious, intentional and important.

12

Sam did not listen to Dean - Dean ordered Sam to burn the journal. Sam didn’t argue, but also didn’t blindly do what Dean wanted. In fact, once Sam discovered the painting was the tether, it doesn't appear that Sam ever burned the journal (I wonder if this is important). This act of independence and defiance saved Dean’s life. With his supposed dying breath, Dean was still telling Sam what to do (and noticeably repeating to burn the journal, which never happened) but Sam followed his own instincts. Similarly, Dean continued to tell Sam to stop researching the MoC yet Sam is ignoring Dean’s wishes because Sam feels the answer can be found. If this episode foreshadows the future (which they all do), then Sam’s stubborn research will save Dean’s life at the crucial last moment.

Dean’s discomfort in the car; Sam was driving – What conversation led to Sam driving the Impala? Dean didn’t comment that he was tired, nor was he sleeping. That is about the only time he lets Sam drive. Noticeably, Dean was also in some discomfort in the car. I honestly thought he was going to say he had been stabbed or that he was bleeding. When that didn’t happen I realized it actually looked like he was having gastrointestinal pain. Is he starting to get sick? He killed Cain with the Blade, consequently, Dean would have gotten that drug rush from the Blade. In season 9 we concluded that the human body cannot tolerate the Blade’s power. If Dean doesn’t keep killing for that drug, he gets “the least best better”, or as Dean clarified to Crowley “in other words, dead.” Dean doesn’t have the blade so he can’t get the drug fix he probably craves. Will the addiction stabilize or just keep getting worse if it is not fed? Users typically can “dry out” after only one slip up, but does the Blade’s power drug work that way? I absolutely do not accept that Dean’s multiple face grimaces were inconsequential.

During Dean’s “discomfort”, he also wasn’t very forthcoming or responsive to Sam’s plea to use him as a confidant. This would be more understandable if Dean is keeping an important development from Sam. Has the countdown clock to the end of the game been triggered by use of the Blade? Does Dean believe that he has a lot less time than previously thought, and thus doesn’t think Sam can’t find his miracle answer before it’s game-over?  This would explain Dean’s heart-breaking confession to a stranger:
Dean: What if I said I didn’t want to die, yet, that I’m not ready. Recent events made me think I might be closer to that than I really thought.

It might also explain Dean's self-reflection. Sam said he didn’t believe the MoC was a terminal diagnosis. This was an interesting reference. What if that is exactly what is happening to Dean? He is going through stages of acceptance common to terminally ill patients, reaching out for spiritual advice while he tries to sort out if there could be another life for him, another future:

03
Editor's Note: This is a particularly striking picture of...Jensen. He really doesn't look like Dean here.
Dean: How does someone like you end up...
Sr. Mathias: …cloistered away from the world?
Dean: I’m just wondering how somebody quits one life for something completely different and then believes in it so much.
Sr. Mathias: In my case, I felt I had no choice. My life had become painful. There was hopelessness. I felt I had to find someone larger than myself to focus on – a kind of mission, I guess.

08
Editor's Note #2: How do these guys' suits come out of their duffle bag meticulously cleaned and pressed??

Sam heard and related Dean’s conversation to Dean's recent “mission”, or obsession, with hunting. What if Dean is thinking about whether he has the option to stop being a hunter, though… to stop putting his life on the line on a daily basis? There was a clear parallel between the nuns' motivations and the history of many hunters:
Sr. Mathias: We all found our way to this life for a reason…..We’re supposed to enter the convent for some higher purpose, but many of us chose this because of the things that overwhelmed us.
15

So many hunters found their way into hunting after a trauma or tragedy uprooted their lives. Sr. Mathias chose “the life” as a solution to her life’s traumas, as did John Winchester. Sr. Isabella, though, was forced into the life by her father, just as Dean was forced into hunting by his upbringing under John. Again, Sr. Isabella’s character paralleled Dean, reinforcing the prediction of him turning on Sam. Curiously, the first episode this season when Dean was a demon was entitled “Black”. This episode, which told the story of how Isabella turned to darkness, is “Paint it Black”. Obviously this week’s title referred to the artistic act of painting, but it could also be a further connection between Isabella and Dean.

Forgiveness
Sr. Isabella’s spirit: The priest had to die. He made it his business to forgive you beings(?) ; forgive you when what you do is unforgivable.

It was so very interesting that this show again focused on forgiveness! It also specifically made the statement that what Dean had done was unforgiveable, yet God (as represented on Earth by the priest) did forgive him as long as Dean was sincere and tried to change his way of life. Dean’s story about Gina was of course made up, but he just as easily could have substituted any of the names of his past one-night-stands. Might Dean be considering a more stable life style rather than his “love-em-and-leave-em, pedal to the metal, go down swinging” philosophy?

Deanconfession

The context, content and repercussions of confession was a central theme of “Paint it Black”. This was noteworthy in light of both Dean’s confession of his own feelings to a priest in this episode, but also Dean’s confessions to both Crowley and Sam in “The Executioner’s Song”. I actually felt Dean’s “confession” to Crowley after killing Cain was an act of sincerity and respect, not mocking, and Dean’s confession of fear to Sam was sincere and honest. Confession seems to be a recurring theme for Dean right now. Dean confessed:
"I believe there is a God, but I’m not sure he still believes in us"

I wish that praying woman who once helped Castiel would have been in this church to help Dean:

“Your lack of faith doesn’t cancel what I believe. That’s not how it works. You know…I think you might feel better if you tried it my way. Someone is listening.” (9.03 “I’m No Angel”)
So…

I didn’t have a problem with “Paint it Black”. There were a lot of things that were clumsy or left unexplained. There were missed opportunities and things that could have be done better, but it wasn’t that bad. Some commenters on the site had previously asked about a male’s point of view of these episodes. I think my husband’s opinion summed this one up perfectly when he said it was “a perfectly reasonable hour of television. Not the best, but a good MotW story. They can’t all be homeruns”.  

Curiosities

  • Why did Isabella’s spirit possess the wife instead of the cheating husband? Why didn’t Isabella want him to kill himself, like all the others? It doesn’t make sense that she would destroy the wife’s life as well as the husbands. Yes, it gave Isabella a chance to reenact her own act of vengeance, but the change in pattern was a little unexplained.

16

  • I thought it was odd that Sr. Mathias had been asked to show the brothers/agents around and answer their questions, but as soon as they brought up ghosts, she “had to get back to work”. At first, that cast suspicion on her. A fairly good misdirection tactic actually.
  • How did Sr. Mathias and Sam both read a journal that would supposedly have been written in Italian? (I really wanted the screencap of the journal's pages to study the writing!)
  • The last shot which silhouetted the brothers driving away in the Impala got sloppy. It shows Dean in the driver’s seat and Sam in the passenger seat. Thanks to @sgbt1 for pointing that out to me.
I'd love to hear from you! What do you think of these observations? Do they change your view of the episode?  Did this episode open up new possibilities for this season, or for next season? Is anyone else really tired of Rowena?

At the time of posting, none of our screencapping sources had 10.16 pics available yet. Sorry, but I’ll have to suffice with just the few promotional pics!

Comments  

sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-03-27 17:28
hey nightsky,

just wanted to let you know that i enjoyed your threads. I actually enjoyed this eppy. I enjoy rowena and i really can see how much she and crowley are the same. she's entertaining and i laughed out loud when she turned olivette into a hamster. leads me to believe we might be seeing her again in the future. I love the tie in with the witches and the mol...i kind of wonder if the bunker might contain something useful to the boys....at the very most it'll make for interesting story arc next season.

i actually saw the episode as a foreshadowing of hope. Dean has a tendency at times to think he always knows what's best and always knows what's right. but as bobby so eloquently asked dean once before..."don't you ever get tired of being wrong?" :D i thought it was pretty significant that Dean was so confident that he was right regarding how to solve the problem and ended up being totally wrong. He was insistent that Sam burn the journal, but Sam didn't feel right. Sam had a gut feeling and this gut feeling led him on his own path....and this path ended up saving dean's life and the nun's, not to mention every other person who might have been victim to isabella. I feel like this is a glimpse of positive forshadowing... .that despite Dean's declaration that he's right and there is no answer out there, he is in fact wrong. Sam is following his instinct and in doing so i have no doubt that he will find a way to save not only his brother, but anyone fallen/evil dean might deem worthy of eliminating This isn't just about saving Dean, this is about saving people.

as for dean stabbing sam, i don't think so....dean knows that if he sates the mark he's gone forever...i still believe the only way to rid the mark and break the curse is to do the opposite of what the mark desires. i do think that dean will start to lose whatever control he's holding onto though.....so sam does have to hurry.

when this eppy ended i didn't sense any forboding of doom...i actually saw this episode as a forboding of hope. i trust in the winchesters and not for nothing, but they do have an angel in their pocket so that's kind of helpful as well.....:p

but i always do. ;)
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-03-27 18:10
Quote:
I feel like this is a glimpse of positive forshadowing....that despite Dean's declaration that he's right and there is no answer out there, he is in fact wrong. Sam is following his instinct and in doing so i have no doubt that he will find a way to save not only his brother,
I love and completely accept your observations here! I agree that the message was there that Dean can be wrong and Sam can be right! The question remains, though, WHAT answer will Sam find?

Thank you for reading Threads! I'm happy that you enjoy them!
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-03-27 17:45
You are a magician! Didn't care for this one at all but I'm just too disappointed in the show to belabor the point.

I agree, forgiveness, and even self reflection, seem to be themes of late.

Is it me or are the Impala BM scenes just covering the same ground over and over again?

Dean's confession, while well acted, confused me. DEAN CANNOT DIE. THE MARK OF CAIN WON'T LET HIM! So why is he afraid of dying? And, if he feels as though that time is getting near, where the MoC will consume him, given what Cain told him, isn't he putting Sam at grave risk by asking him to be by his side?

Dean's stomach discomfort - I had initially thought he might have been stabbed in the confrontation with the ghost possessing the nun, but nice job on tying this back to what Dean went thru at the end of last season with the MoC.

How did Sr. Mathias and Sam both read a journal that would supposedly have been written in Italian? - If this was from the 16th century, the journal could have also been Latin. I didn't get a good enough look at the journal, though.

I'm beyond done with Rowena; she is just too over the top and cartoonish. I hope she's gone by season's end but fear that isn't the case.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-03-27 18:20
Quote:
Dean's confession, while well acted, confused me. DEAN CANNOT DIE. THE MARK OF CAIN WON'T LET HIM! So why is he afraid of dying?
The way I look at it, the Dean that he knows as himself, the Dean who loves pie and Sam and bacon cheese burgers, will die. His soul will have been corrupted beyond recognition so he will stop being who he is. A demon will emerge that looks like him but doesn't act like him. Dean won't have any more opportunities to find lasting love or whatever else he was thinking when he told the priest he wanted to experience things for the first time.

Good idea on the Latin. They might both know enough Latin to read a journal.

New point though - Last week you wondered if maybe Dean, not Sam, would be the one who would dabble in witchcraft. I just put this together with this week's episode:
I am drawing a parallel between Isabella and Dean.
Isabella was accused and burned for being a witch.
=> foreshadowing that Dean might be "seen" as a witch?
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-03-27 19:16
OK, so metaphorically dead, I would agree with that.

As far as the witch stuff goes, without giving away any spoilers, with next week's episode summary, one could see Rowena leading Dean down the primrose path.
E
# E 2015-03-28 08:30
Hey njspnfan… that idea has come up on the preview thread… and I have to say that I hate the prospect. No body could control Cain for two millennia…so why can a common witch control Dean? Crowley couldn't and he's the king of hell… I hate the entire idea and deeply hope that this is NOT where the show is heading.

Dear Show:
You can't tell us that Dean can't die because of the Mark and then have him die anyway.
You can't tell us that there is no cure for the MoC and then have a secondary character find a cure (off screen) a mere handful of episodes later.
You can't tell us that Cain was uncontrollable with the Mark, that he was the scourge of earth and completely unstoppable and then have a common witch rope Dean in with a simple spell.
No, no and HELL NO.

Sincerely, The Fandom.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-03-28 09:12
E - If I had to guess, I'd say that Rowena is going to tell Dean she can cure the Mark of Cain just so she can gain access to the grand coven archives at the MoL bunker. Based upon the fact that Dean was "cured" when he was deaged by the last witch they ran in to, he might buy in to that, and be desperate enough to be manipulated by her.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-03-28 10:07
Or she foolishly tries the spell and inadvertantly brings DemonDean to the forefront. Hence, Inside Man. What will be interesting is if neither she nor Dean are aware of it.
E
# E 2015-03-28 10:28
Or she foolishly brings Demon Dean to the fore thinking she can control him and he squashes her like the nasty irritating bug she is. That would be nice, I could get behind that.
Arlette
# Arlette 2015-03-27 17:51
I liked your review. As for both Sam and Sister Mathias reading the journal, I'm guessing it was written in Latin.
Latin is the common language in the Catholic church, and for educated people during that time. So it would make sense Sam could read it ( all those spells ) and the nun would definitely be able to read Latin. Plus I'm sure Italian has roots in Latin as well so they would be able to get the meanings at least.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-03-30 12:14
Received a Tweet from an Italian on the language question! "Italy in the 16th century-only academics knew Latin. Vernacular Italian had been used for more than 2 centuries".
I have a feeling this was a lack a research or an oops from the writers. We just found a new screencapping site, so I want to check out that darn journal! Has anyone frozen that screen on rewatch to see the language of the journal?
winmomwannabe
# winmomwannabe 2015-03-28 02:31
I agree that Dean was speaking metaphorically about his death. And with most everything you pointed out. Great insight.

I would just like to make a quick comment to address the many comments I see elsewhere, like on twitter, regarding Dean's constant dismay at Sam's research. That Dean complaining about it is in contrast to some of what he says. IMO I feel the reason Dean wants Sammy to stop the research is his fear that Sam will dig enough and find something that will relate to or reveal what Cain predicted for Dean. Just a thought.

Thanks for continuing your threads! :)
E
# E 2015-03-28 08:35
But I think that doesn't pan out. Every Christian on the planet knows what the Mark was for and what it did… why Sam WOULDN'T know that he's in danger is ridiculous… the Mark IS fratricide. And knowing about that doesn't put Sam in MORE danger it makes him more knowledgeable so that if it comes down to it, he might have a chance to fight. It's the same thing Dean did with Kevin, by not telling Kevin about Gadreel he put the poor ignorant and uninformed kid into a position of not being able to defend himself. There is zero benefit to Dean keeping this information to himself; you'd think he'd WANT Sam to know.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-03-28 10:44
I would like to think it goes back to that little look that Dean had on his face as he passed Castiel in the bunker. I would like to think that this is the Mark controlling what Dean says because it wants to take control over Dean. And of course in order to do so Dean has to kill Sam ultimately. Maybe the Mark doesn't want Sam digging into a possible cure. And maybe since Dean has never made an aggressive move towards him Sam doesn't feel he is in any danger, at least not yet. But I could be totally wrong and that conversation has already happened off screen where Dean told Sam and Cas (or at least Cas) about his conversation with Cain.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-03-28 17:35
Interesting!
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-03-28 14:43
many times the mark of cain has been equated with disease. If dean's mentality is that he is carrying what could be, not necessarily is as I believe is the case here, but could be terminal then it's perfectly understandable that Dean would go from one extreme to another, depending on the kind of day he's having or how he's feeling. Isn't Dean battling the darkness inside? Aren't there days when one feels they are winning, while other days it feels as though they are losing? We have had episodes where Dean felt hopeful and he could beat it, and there are eps where Dean feels hopeless and defeated. I don't find this contradictory attitude unusual at all...I think it's actually quite common in people who are battling a disease...some eps have dean quite strong and in control. the episode with cole had dean completely resistant to violence against cole, he had a fighting attitude....he wasn't going to let cole's monster win. then there have been eps where dean feels like he can't win and there is no cure for him....he has a defeatist attitude...seem ingly.....but yet, with all the sam there's no point in looking, dean is perfectly aware that sam is doing just that. and with that knowledge, dean hasn't given into his darkness or lost control....not as of yet anyway....so on the outside dean is all no no no sam...but on the inside, he's counting on sam...though too afraid to admit it for fear of getting his hopes dashed.

isn't that was a battle basically is though.....figh ting against those feelings of despair when they take over as well as fighting for survival? I don't believe dean wants sam to stop at all....the more dean says no...the more he means yes.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-03-28 17:39
Nicely said. Tho I do think part of Dean doesn't want Sam to keep looking because a desperate Sam is not always a clear thinking Sam and Dean doesn't want him to go there.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-03-30 12:17
Quote:
I feel the reason Dean wants Sammy to stop the research is his fear that Sam will dig enough and find something that will relate to or reveal what Cain predicted for Dean.
I actually like this theory. Dean is in complete denial about the possibility that he will try to kill Sam. It is too horrific a thought to accept. Him not wanting Sam to know is consistent with Dean not telling Sam what Cain said. It makes sense out of his continued, stubborn and vehement objection to Sam's research.
E
# E 2015-03-30 14:20
I guess I have a little trouble with this. Why wouldn't sam know what the mark is for? All of Christianity knows what it's for, the mark IS fratricide. It makes zero sense for Sam not to be aware. My other issue is that they haven't indicated that Dean is in denial. He's given no solid reasons for not wanting Sam to look whether it's denial or concern for Sam's well being or basic hopelessness. Dean has no context for his current arguments.
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-03-28 05:39
Thanks for piling these up again. It was sorely needed. The episode wasn't perfect but it had it's story to tell. My husband was thinking same regards as yours but he is not affected by anything. He really does hate Rowena though and wants Crowley off her. I am the one that is trying to give her a chance in our household.

Anyway, you made good points and I thought about the same about the confession. In meet and greet Jensen said that Dean has lost his hope. I mean totally so he is having this shell up that doesn't show it. In his state he is thinking about everything even if they contradict sometimes because they are things he has lost. In his eyes he is dying and I can imaging people think all kinds of things on that state. Also Dean seemed ill. Sam noticed it and we were also meant to.

I agree too that the book was written in latin. That makes most sense and even though it is weird but thinking Sam to read latin like that is new kind of hotness.

Also what I found interesting about this image. When I googled images about it I got images of soldiers carrying their comrades or brother carrying his little brother on his back.



Bigger screenshot ("https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CA_H9EUUgAARnMq.jpg:large")



and of course we have a video about it with the song:

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsaSPUY1vKg[/video]

You didn't mention anything about it but what do you think of the meaning or does it have any?

Quote:
Editor's Note #2: How do these guys' suits come out of their duffle bag meticulously cleaned and pressed??

It's a kinda magic? - Queen ;)

- Lilah
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-03-30 12:21
Quote:
You didn't mention anything about it but what do you think of the meaning or does it have any?
I think the use of the quote on the sign was simply reinforcing the bond between the brothers and that they will do anything for each other. I didn't think it had any foreshadowing undertone. It think it was a *cute* placement by the set design people.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-03-28 08:43
I see a red door and I want it painted black
No colors anymore, I want them to turn black
I see the girls walk by dressed in their summer clothes
I have to turn my head until my darkness goes

I see a line of cars and they're all painted black
With flowers and my love, both never to come back
I see people turn their heads and quickly look away
Like a newborn baby it just happens ev'ryday

I look inside myself and see my heart is black
I see my red door and I want it painted black
Maybe then I'll fade away and not have to face the facts
It's not easy facing up when your whole world is black

No more will my green sea go turn a deeper blue
I could not foresee this thing happening to you
If I look hard enough into the setting sun
My love will laugh with me before the morning comes

I see a red door and I want it painted black
No colors anymore I want them to turn black
I see the girls walk by dressed in their summer clothes
I have to turn my head until my darkness goes

I want to see your face painted black, black as night, black as coal
I want to see the sun blotted out from the sky.
I want to see it painted, painted, painted, painted black, yea


as for the title of the eppy...it seems to me, if it's like the song above, it's about denial and avoidance. if it's referring to Dean, Dean's entire life, when having to deal with his issues, has been about denial and avoidance. this song's lyrics pretty much exemplifies how Dean has always seen himself and his place in the world. Black is Dean's monster color. Black is dean's self perception. For Dean it's easier to see Black then it is to see the light and the positive. I believe the title is a representation of Dean's overall view of himself. ....but he see's a red door and wants to paint it black...the positive in all of this is that he's still on the other side of the door and he can fight this monster and beat it.

as lilah pointed out, and thanks lilah I didn't see that...there was a sign outside the church quoting the title of another song, a song in which hundreds of people have made sam/dean videos on you tube. The Hollies, He aint heavy, he's my brother. That sign was significant, as Sam is the one who will carry Dean, who has always carried Dean while he's lived with this view of himself. Sam represents the light. He's the one that sees that dean not as black, but as vibrant with color..perhaps with a little touch of gray;) if Dean were a portrait, then Sam would be the artist who paints in as Sam sees him, in vibrant color.

In essence, Sam's more " colorful" way of looking at things, his optimism, faith and devotion will lead him to finding a cure. he may have to go through some shady characters and do things that his devotion and desperation will call for, but in the end I have no doubt that sam will help bring back some color to Dean's dark outlook he has towards himself.

that's just my take on things.;)
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-03-28 09:40
I guess we are the song analyzers too this week. ;)

- Lilah
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-03-30 12:23
Beautiful interpretation. I agree with everything you said.
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-03-28 10:25

Why did Isabella’s spirit possess the wife instead of the cheating husband? Why didn’t Isabella want him to kill himself, like all the others? It doesn’t make sense that she would destroy the wife’s life as well as the husbands. Yes, it gave Isabella a chance to reenact her own act of vengeance, but the change in pattern was a little unexplained.
We never saw what the other victims confessed to. The implication was it was infidelity, but perhaps Isabella had gone over the edge and was punishing other sins? She possessed the wife because the husband had committed the same sin as Peiro? But the other victims didn't commit adultery? Just a guess.

Your review makes me feel a little better about this episode. At least you can see threads still running through the season, so that gives me some hope.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-03-28 10:35
I think the other men were at the church alone so they committed suicide. The last one the wife was there and since she was the one cheated on Isabella "helped" her get her revenge. The priest was alone as well.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-28 10:48
The priest killing still doesn't make sense, however. He indicated that the other men had also confessed to him, so presumably he absolved them as well as Dean. Therefore, wouldn't the ghost have killed him much sooner?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-03-28 16:48
I think Isabelle was going after the ones who committed the sins. The priest didn't commit the sin but he absolved them so I suppose the sinners were more important until she started to become more vengeful as ghosts tend to do.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-03-28 17:42
Didn't she say she killed the Priest because 'he was helping pigs like you' when she was trying to choke the life out of Dean? Man, all this choking going on by all these evil doers - I'd just snap a neck. Done and done.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-28 10:51
Nightsky must be a magician because I feel the same way as you- maybe I was too harsh about this episode, and it actually has some redeeming qualities? At least I'm considering the possibility, which is amazing given how stomach-turning I thought it was after watching it.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-03-28 17:45
Thats how I initially felt too. I had to rewatch it and absorb it but I still think a lot of it was unnecessary and crappily written. I don't hate it like I first did tho.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-03-30 12:25
I'm happy I was able to make it better for you!
iamsam1013
# iamsam1013 2015-03-28 19:26
I can't say that I loved this episode, but I didn't see anything to hate. I agree that is was a bit slow at times, and it was a bit Winchester light, but I didn't think it was nearly as bad as some people seem to think. I agree that they can't all be home runs. I really enjoyed reading this article. I sincerely hope that the foreshadowing of Dean stabbing Sam is to show how and why Dean could completely lose hope and isn't really going to happen. I choose to believe that forgiveness and redemption will save Dean in the end, hopefully before he succumbs to that particular act.
E
# E 2015-03-28 22:53
Great review Nightsky. It certainly helped me to see that there was perhaps a bit more to this episode than I first suspected. Unfortunately, even with your wonderful, in depth insights, it really doesn't change how I feel about it. This episode was a stinker and it's in my bottom five worst episodes of all time. It's not that I disagree with your assessment, I actually do agree, but it did not mitigate this disaster for me. There was too much that went wrong for me to overlook the bits that went right.

Interesting things happening with Crowley notwithstanding , I cannot abide Rowena. She annoys me to no end to the point that I want to turn the channel while she's on my screen; and she was on my screen A LOT this episode. The scenes with Olivette were beyond excruciating. I can't believe that we had to sit through three of them just to find out about the MoL.. couldn't that have happened quicker and before the girlie beat down? Ugh. Rowena is as physically intimidating as my cat. She's tiny and frail and can't throw a decent punch to save her life. Watching her resort to physical violence was disturbingly ineffective and seemed awkward. Why wasn't she torturing Olivette using her magic since she so all powerful? The beat down made little sense to me. Also, there was an awful lot of needless dialog going on just to find out that there are possibly other MoL bunkers around and that they were responsible for dissolving the Grand Coven. Yes, I guess Rowena needed to know about the Weeeeenchyester zz/MoL connection, but couldn't that all have been handled in like a single 2 minute scene? Bla, bla, bla, Winchesters, bla, bla bla Men of Letters…. and done. And I am not sure how much of a game changer it will be that there are other bunkers in other countries seeing as how the writers aren't doing anything with the bunker and MoL legacy that they already have.

And forgive me, but I am tired of seeing Dean's MoC story line being played out in the secondary and guest characters. I don't dispute that Isabella seemed to have some sort of connection to Dean story wise, that was a nice insight, I am just trying to figure out why we had to see that AGAIN in this episode. We saw Dean's story played out through Kate in Paper Moon, through Marie in Fan Fiction, through Cole in Girls, Girls Girls, through Dark Charlie in There's No Place Like Home, through Tina and Teen Dean in About A Boy, through Delilah in Halt and Catch Fire, through Cole AGAIN in The Things They Carried, and through Isabella AND Sr. Mathias in Paint it Black…. Geez! Do we really need to see this parallel again? We GET IT. By this time I am so ready to see the MoC story be about Dean and told THROUGH Dean I could just about scream with frustration at what seems like terminal stalling.

And I just had to quote your bit of dialog between Dean and Sr. Mathias:
Quote:
Sr. Mathias: In my case, I felt I had no choice. My life had become painful. There was hopelessness. I felt I had to find someone larger than myself to focus on – a kind of mission, I guess.
But here's how she said it:
In…..my….case…..I………………felt I………………………….had ……….no choice.(grand pause) My life……..had become……………………… ……….painful………… there was……………………………..zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…
She was the worst actress I've seen on this show in years. Her line delivery was ponderously bad, stilted and so painfully sssssssssssssss ssssslooooooww. I could barely keep track of what she was saying, couldn't get into her story at all, and couldn't drum up any sympathy for her either. And Dean's drooling all over her was inappropriate to say the least.

And finally, the straw that broke this camel's back. The tone of this episode was all kinds of wrong. That's been a problem with this writing due before and one of my main complaints about one of my most other least favorite episodes Man's Best Friend's With Benefits. It's no surprise that both episodes were written by the same duo. That hip bar that all the cool witches hang out in? It was ridiculous and not in any way Supernatural in tone or execution. It came across like a Lois and Clark episode or something from Charmed, like a cartoon and so did this episode. As soon as they began delving into Isabella's past with her pseudo renaissance garb and her artist lover and all his tousled hair, they completely lost me. It was like one of those Spanish soaps that Dean likes, all dewey eyed, soft focus and saturated colors and stirring close ups of the teary eyed woman as she realizes that her man done her wrong! It's like this show has become a joke of itself. It was so unrealistic and so un-Supernatural like that I could barely watch and I couldn't even begin to take any of it seriously.

So, thank you for your insights…. I appreciate it very much, but I am afraid that when it comes to this episode, it's not going to help much. You'd have to tie me down and force feed me a Kahn Worm to get me to watch it again.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-28 23:52
While I agree with you about the flashback scenes, the scene that seemed unbearably cartoony to me, that literally had me gaping at my TV like a fish out of water, was the one with Rowena, Crowley and the two-faced demon. When that demon (who was horribly acted BTW) turned around and revealed the tiny little face, I struggled to even process what I was seeing. It is the single most ridiculous, campy thing ever on SPN. I actually felt embarrassed to be watching it, and I swear that Sheppard looked embarrassed to be in that scene.
E
# E 2015-03-29 08:10
Ugh… agreed. I think I've tried to scrub it from my brain; it was like some badly reproduced Harry and Voldemort moment. I should have included that part too. Something that dumb and campy undermines hell and undermines Crowley as a character. Rowena is on that level for me. She needs to GO ASAP. I sincerely hope that Dean gets rid of her next week. Then we can have pissed off Crowley wanting revenge for the death of his oh so annoying Mummy and get back to the dynamic that is supposed to exist between the Winchesters and demons.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-29 09:46
Thank you so much for referring to Voldemort. All week I've been alternating between trying to forget I ever saw that scene and desperately trying to figure out what it reminded me of. As a huge Potter fan, I'm ashamed I didn't immediately think of Voldemort.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-03-29 12:59
Pissed off and wanting revenge? If I were Crowley I'd send Dean a damn fruit basket!
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-03-30 12:30
Darn! That was a Voldemort reference - THIRD Harry Potter reference in this episode. How very interesting!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-30 15:53
What were the other two references?
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-03-31 07:56
1. When Olivette said that Rowena was with a non-magic man. It was not an overt reference, but it made me think of the bigotry against "Muggles" that was so prominent in Harry Potter.
2. Rowena's spell to kill Olivette. Listen to the word Rowena says. It is definitely the same root word as the Crutiatus curse in Harry Potter. The effect was about the same as well. Intense pain that if held long enough kills its victim.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-31 15:46
I didn't catch the spell wording, but you're right about the "muggle" reference. I thought the same thing when Rowena referred to Crowley's non-magic father, but I had completely forgotten that until you jogged my memory. Maybe the writers are HP fans, which raises my opinion of them!
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-03-29 12:54
Gotta admit, that one was bad.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-03-29 12:54
:)

Terminal stalling indeed. It would be nice to see a little playing out of Deans MOC storyline by - oh, I dunno - Dean?

Nicely filmed flashbacks but that didn't overcome the cheese factor. This writing duo uses every stereotype in the book and then some. And how dare you insult such beloved television classics as Char- Okay I can't even pretend to go there. Speaking of cheese - I agree the "torture" scene with Rowena was silly as well as cringe worthy. And the head of the "Grand Coven" gives it up that easily? Milquetoast. Unless she was lying? Huh? Yeah? No? Okay I'll shut up now.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-03-29 12:58
E - do you think maybe you could put more emphasis into your obvious dislike of the episode? I was expecting something more along the lines of... 'and force feed me a Kaaaaaahhhhnnnn n!!!! Worm...'

Thanks.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-29 14:45
Actually one of the few silver linings to a seemingly endless series of mostly bad or mediocre episodes is the great pleasure I get out of reading E's entertaining comments. They've been more enjoyable than the episodes themselves. I haven't been a visitor to this site long enough to know what an E review of a really good episode looks like. Hopefullly I'll find out soon.
E
# E 2015-03-29 21:02
Thanks, I'm glad you like my descriptive takes. As a performer, artist, actor, musician type I put myself firmly in the intensely critical category when it comes to plotting, acting believability etc.. and this ep didn't do it for me. And I am sorry to say that since Carver took over there hasn't been much to champion episode wise. Being an unabashed Sam fan, these past years have been particularly difficult and I haven't found much to crow about. But, I was pretty stoked by Executioners Song… so that's kinda what I look like when I'm happy.
E
# E 2015-03-29 21:06
Heh… I was inspired by Alice's description of the way Rowena speaks. I know she's Scottish and although her accent is genuine, her delivery seems to be the stuff of cartoon levels of exaggeration. I pretty much can't stand to listen to her.
nicknicknicknick
# nicknicknicknick 2015-03-29 03:17
Finally caught up with the episode and was absolutely expecting a train wreck, after reading all the comments. Much to my surprise, it wasn't THAT bad. It wasn't great either; definitely a C- episode, but did it leave me with a sour taste in my mouth? Ranting and raving and fuming? Nah. To me, it was this season's "Man's Best Friend With Benefits", or my absolute lowest-rated episode (discounting 'Bloodlines'), "Mannequin 3: The Reckoning". I don't understand getting angry over a television show (it's still up there among my favorite shows and has been for the past decade), nor do I need my boys to appear in every single scene. I'm fine with how much they were used here. But I understand that different fans appreciate this show differently. I've always been one to rate an episode on an "enjoyed it tremendously", "enjoyed it enough", "didn't really enjoy it" and "didn't enjoy it at all" scale. This episode falls into the "didn't really enjoy it" category for me. Not one I'm in a hurry to watch again, but not one I'm willing to give up the entire show over either.

That said, I do agree that there were some questionable things here, such as the two-faced demon and the unnecessary flashbacks. Rowena, on the other hand, doesn't annoy me as much as it does many others; I'm hoping that all her over-the-top cartoonishness is just a front for how truly nasty she can be. After all, most of her cartoonish moments have been in front of other demons, and, pertinently, in front of Crowley. Yet, with Olivette, I think she displayed just a little bit of ferocity. Once she get what she wants -- all the power, and the Winchesters wiped out -- will she be a terrifying force to reckon with? One can hope.

All in all, still a die-hard fan, and still looking forward to next week's episode!! <3
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-03-29 13:02
I have always been of the belief it is as front. Every once in a while the real Rowena peeks thru. I'm looking forward to seeing more of that.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-03-30 12:35
Love your critique scale! It was an "enjoyed it enough" rating for me.
My all time hated episode is "Time for a Wedding". My stomach turned during that whole ep. I didn't like fans being satired. You need a new bottom rating for that one. "Gut Wrenching"?
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-03-29 23:02
I agree with njspnfan that you are a magician. The problem is that I do not want to appreciate the story through the review of an insightful thinker. I want to view the episode and see/ feel it! My complaint with this episode is aligned with my criticism of season 10. I watched this episode and kept thinking, hoping it would get better. When it was over I thought, what the hell was that? You know what word does come to mind.... whiplash both in the micro and macro sense- episode and overall season 10. The transition between the three stories (S&D, C&R and Isabella was disjointed and tedious) Hell and Crowley as the king have become a travesty. This is the home of Lucifer, Alastair (unending torture- twisting of souls, and Azazel who manipulated Sam's entire life. So, the disinterested ruler of hell with Mommy issues is pathetic. We go from biblical HELL to a bad place to work. Rowena is campy, cartoon-like and boring. We used to have lesser witches/ novices using spells to cause death by gruesome conditions. Now we have two master all powerful witches get into a slapdown and oh how cute; one is now a hamster- this is what a pissed off teenage witch would do. Then we have Dean. Another whiplash moment. There is a complete lack of continuation of the devastation Dean seemed to experience by his encounter with and killing of Cain in Executioner's Song (the masterpiece). Sam was convinced and so was I that Dean was not okay; that he crossed a line... damaged his soul, lost his mind; human debilitation. Dean killed the Father of Murder with the Blade and now he is flirting with a nun and soul searching with some vague confession that he wants things different. I get subtlety but there has to be some acknowledgement of that defining moment. If he is hopeless than why does he care enough to flirt or think some nun responded to him. The nun was also ridiculous from so many standpoints. The whole depiction of this nun was poor (acting and writing). Layla Rourke from Faith was more of a nun than Sister Mathias. I saw this nun as Angela Landsbury in Murder She Wrote but young and pretty wearing makeup!!! Nothing this nun was doing or saying was realistic. Nuns do not wear makeup, they do not simply hang out at church, and there is no way that Isabella's journal, the painting and all that other stuff would be shipped from Italy to some church in Mass in the year 2015! If by chance there was some interest in the estate items of the murdering Isabella, it would have gone to some church in Italy.... the vatican in Rome. Also the side story of the Harlequin romance novel was boring and ridiculous. Also our crazy ghost was conveniently doing whatever she wanted- inciting suicide, causing wife to commit murder then outright killing the priest. The problems of this episode are the same for the MOC storyline ... conveniently whatever- it is just all over the place.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-03-30 12:40
Thank you for the compliment!
I can't disagree with the whiplash. We've had superb episodes then wait...wait...w ait...wait...su perb episode then wait...wait...s eason ender. From the con comment yesterday, the most intense episodes of the series are coming.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-03-30 15:14
They better get a move on it, they are running out of episodes.... ;)
eilf
# eilf 2015-03-30 19:48
Putting this here because it is a thread-related thing.

So this was me last week:

Quote:
Can someone going to the con this weekend PLEASE ask J2 why the show is telling us Dean is going to die? Since they are also telling us he isn't going to die ... because this is nonsense at the moment.
And amazingly someone asked 'for a friend' this very question (a politer version of it) at the Gold Panel in Seacon ... and now I learn that the asker of this question was Leah ... for me!

Leah you are awesome for asking. And apparently there is even an answer! This is all very cool :)

The answer is (could be), apparently, that Dean's meatsuit may be immortal but the Dean that is Dean would be gone. (this was described on stage as 'job security' for Jensen ;) )

So for the next con what I need someone to get for me is Jared's cell number. K? (Make it so)
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-03-30 20:10
I've been outed.:D Eilf was wondering on Skype whether or nor Dean even realized he was immortal and said (maybe jokingly) could you ask Jensen that? I thought it was an interesting question so it stuck in my mind. I also asked Jared if he improvised the warming of his hands over the burning remains in the golem episode. He thought I sounded like a 1-800- number 'lady' and teased me about it. I was actually trying not to talk loudly into the mic but I played along. If I had been a little quicker I would have asked him how HE knew what they sounded like.:)
eilf
# eilf 2015-03-30 20:14
That was such a fun conversation - and I was listening going 'I wonder could that possibly be Leah? That is so exactly the question I wanted answered...'

Doing a sexy voice! :D Too bad you didn't get to ask!
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-03-31 00:07
Good job Leah! Good question Eilf! Kudos to the both of you. I wish Jensens answer could've been a little less vague but I'll take what he can give right now!
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-03-31 00:43
Thanks, I'm reasonably certain he was being vague on purpose and we will understand better as time goes on. I am still mulling over the answer.:)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-03-31 02:19
I can't help but to hurt for both of these fictional characters! For all our (fans/viewers.. .) complaining about moving the MOC/Dean storyline along I'm afraid we are all going to regret getting what we wished for. I fear that one of the brothers will kill the other or Sam kills Dean and then kills himself because of it. Either way Dean dies and returns worse than ever. Maybe he as MOC/DemonDean will be Season Elevens Big Bad? So many different directions it can go! Hopefully this next ep takes a strong stride forward. After two filler type episodes, we deserve it!
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-03-31 13:51
I always hurt for both Sam and Dean too. Poor boys how much more damage and pain can be inflicted on them? As I said in another reply here, Misha said in one of his panels this weekend that bad bad (there may have been another bad:)) things were coming. :(
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-03-31 08:16
I'm so excited that those questions came from you Leah! The Threads group asked one of the best questions at the con! Thank you. I'm so weirdly proud! If any of you follow my personal account on Twitter (as @LSAngel2), I immediately sent the video of Jensen's answer (Gold Panel?) to NJspnfan, who is a frequent commenter on Threads and who had specifically asked about Dean dying. I'm glad I had the same answer as Jensen! ;)

Jensen was being vague on purpose. Jared said they were just starting to film the season ender then Jensen warned Jared to be careful not to say too much. One of their biggest contract clauses is that they can't say more about the show than the head writer or producers. All the writers have the same gag rule. Then Jensen went on to say that Dean's "vessel" was immortal. I thought his use of "vessel" instead of "body" was significant. DemonDean was in Dean's body because it was basically a corrupted Dean. Vessel implies something / someone else inhabits or possesses Dean's body (as Gadreel had possessed Sam). The two most likely candidates are Rowena or Crowley. I guess a third option would be Metatron, who is also still around. Trying to figure out which of the 3 it might be would be pure speculation at this point, unless someone can think of a parallel to seasons 4 or 5. S10 is the reverse of those. S5 had Lucifer possess Sam; Dean is an angel vessel...so Metatron then?? Alternately, all this witchcraft emphasis this season would suggest Rowena.
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-03-31 08:27
I too noticed the use of the word vessel by Jensen. I admit, my thought was Michael gets out of the cage somehow and becomes the big bad.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-03-31 10:45
Jensen's wording was very interesting, but in direct contrast to what happened when he died at the end of Season 9. The word vessel implies that he becomes possessed by another entity, either while living or dead. So, that leaves me wondering what changed between the end of S9 and now? Like you said, witchcraft is playing a role in the Season 10 story arc, and that would be an obvious path but... the big change that stands out to me between the end of S9 and now is the fact that the original carrier of the Mark of Cain, Cain himself, is now dead. I can't see the show going down the Lucifer/Michael road again so that leaves me wondering whether the original carrier of the Mark of Cain, Cain himself, returns as the possessor, with Dean as the possesee.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-03-31 13:32
Hi Nightsky. Thanks so much, and to eilf for the suggestion. If I were further back in the room there was no way I would have been selected. I was 3 rows back and near center, so he couldn't ignore me. ;) I sensed Jensen was being very careful in his wording. So the use of vessel did perk up my ears. Between that and Misha saying bad bad things were coming. I am worried/excited to see what unfolds. I will have more free time to come and join the discussions in the future although I always read and enjoy your threads articles.:)
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-03-31 11:43
Great Question Leah! Thanks! I watched the clip; super for you to have such a cool experience at a Con!
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-03-31 13:35
Thanks spnlit, it really was a fun experience and I am SO glad I didn't freeze up like many of the fans. I was nervous though. They were looking right at me. Yikes. And Jared teased me, what more could I ask for!:D
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-31 15:55
Hi Leah. Your Con experience sounds fantastic. I had watched video of the panel where you asked your question and I remember thinking: "finally a good substantive question that I actually want to know the answer to." I've been thinking of starting a discussion thread asking people to share some of their Con experiences. Not so much what the actors say, because there's a lot of video of that. But more about the experience itself-the good, the bad and the ugly (if any). If I get around to doing that soon, I hope you'll share more of your experiences.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-03-31 16:53
Thanks samandean10! I would be more than happy to share more of my con experience on that discussion thread. Mostly all my experience's were great. There were a couple that were less than great. One was of my own making and probably not unique but I will share.:)
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-03-31 17:37
Leah, I did see Jared teasing you about your sexy voice. WOW! Just must have been fun, happy for you. Can you post a link to the YouTube video, I cannot find it again. I want to re-watch to listen to Jensen's response. Maybe someone can post a transcript of his answer because as discussed here already, it did open a new thread. Thanks!
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-03-31 17:51
Both J2 panels #SeaCon:

J2 Gold ("https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzE2sCiufP4")
J2 afternoon ("https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojOeKfu04HU")

- Lilah
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-03-31 18:06
Lilah, I love how you are always right on top of these video requests. And that Bobby clip you posted the link to was very interesting (I couldn't resist watching, spoilers be damned!)
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-03-31 18:16
My friends have started to call me "Net hamster" because of the videos, pictures and "hushhush spoilers" I find. Con videos have actually now gotten better because I think they are allowed to do it?
At least VegasCon was like that and I hope so because I like to listen to them and watch.

Also cheer for Leah and her con question! Wohoo (and being teased by Jared, cough) ;)

- Lilah
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-03-31 20:22
Thanks Lilah!:) It was really eilf's question, which I found very interesting, but I had a lot of fun delivering it.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-04-02 09:19
THANK YOU!
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-03-31 19:34
Heh. In truth I wasn't trying to be sexy but I had just kind of yelled the start of my first question so I would be heard and then the guy with the mic comes sprinting over so I modified my voice so I wasn't yelling into the mic which was adjusted very loud. Anyway I just played along. ;)
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-03-31 07:39
hey leah,

so glad you had fun at your first con and excited that you actually got a chance to ask a question. ;) it was a good question by the way and the answer is a hopeful one. Jensen's response is pretty much what nightsky said above and to which we ourselves have been discussing elsewhere. the way i see it, Jensen pretty much told us what we already figured out, death for dean isn't an option or a solution. that being the case, i really don't believe as I've stated previously that sam will be killing his brother or dean will be killing his. a brother killing a brother is exactly what the mark wants and to do it...dean would be gone forever. i still firmly believe the solution to dean's dilemma is the opposite of what the mark calls for. now after hearing what Jensen said, i believe that even more.

so thanks leah...i was already hopeful, but now i'm really not worried.....it' s not that i don't expect dean and sam to get a little darker....i think dean will start to lose control, his outlook becoming bleaker and his actions more violent, while sam's becomes more fearful and desperate having sam do whatever it takes to find that answer....but in the end, i trust that sam will save dean and murder/fratrici de will play no part in it. ;)
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-03-31 13:43
Thanks Anna, it is all very exciting isn't it? It WAS a great experience, being able to go to a con AND on top of that getting to ask some questions. Thank you so much for all your advice and encouragement. <3 <3
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-03-31 08:45
I just read Farawayeye's review. In it I saw the screencap of Isabella's portrait burning and I had an additional thought about the parallel between Isabella and Dean.

Let's follow the evidence about Isabella representing Dean through to its conclusion - Sam destroyed/kille d Isabella! She had gone completely over to the dark side. Through research he found in an old Italian book, Sam learned how to end Isabella's reign of terror and he killed her. => Sam is researching the MoC in old books. He just sent Charlie to find an ancient Italian book! The foreshadowing is that he will learn something about how to stop/kill Dean and have to follow through and kill Dean to save the world from his reign of terror. I can't believe I missed that before! Given the foreshadowing of Dean killing Sam (i.e. because Isabella killed her companion with a Blade), this episode gave us BOTH scenarios of a brother killing a brother.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-03-31 11:50
I see your point about how we now have the scenario of either brother killing the other. But, as exciting as this may be for others, I am not sure I can quite deal with that ultimate tragedy nor see how it can not decimate the character of one of our beloved brothers.
E
# E 2015-03-31 22:06
I agree…..I'll be more than upset if Sam "kills" dean to save him thus condemning him forever to his demon self. That' would be the kind of move I'd expect the PTB to make. Set Sam up for the ultimate fall and fail.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-04-01 06:42
Wacky theory, something they haven't done before. Based upon Jensen's carefully chosen words at #Seacon. Dean dies, his vessel becomes occupied (Cain, Crowley, or Rowena - doubtful), and Dean's possessed vessel kills Sam. We end the season with both brothers dead, fulfilling Cain's prophesy(?) that Dean would end up killing Sam.
E
# E 2015-04-01 09:03
The whole 'vessel' thing bothers me though. Cain wasn't a vessel, he was Cain with his own corrupted soul. And Dean when he died the first time was just Dean with HIS own corrupted soul. Why should Dean now end up a vessel of some sort if he dies again? Why does he get to "die" when Cain couldn't until Dean killed him with the mark and the blade? It doesn't track to me; it makes no sense that the rules are suddenly all different. I know that Jensen was probably trying very hard to answer the questions without giving anything away, I am hoping that his choice of the word 'vessel' was arbitrary and didn't really mean vessel in the sense that it's often used on this show. To me the whole Dean dies/becomes a vessel to Michael/Metatro n/Rowena (please NO!) whomever.. smacks of TPTB still wanting to make sure Dean can't be blamed for what he's done in any way. If his shell is just a vessel…well… then they can write him as bad as they want (as bad as they dared not to with Demon Dean) and then say…"oh, it's not really Dean it's just his vessel. The REAL Dean is in heaven doing great and saintly works." Dean will come out of it smelling like a rose Sam will end up taking the blame somehow.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-04-01 10:40
E - it bugs me, too; it's the easy way out on the whole Dean killing Sam theory; technically it will just be his vessel and not Dean killing Sam. That's why I was surprised by Jensen's choice of words at #Seacon. It doesn't track with what happened last time, but that doesn't seem to phase the showrunners at all. On the bright side, we're getting some forward movement this week.
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-04-01 12:24
My one concern is that they will have Sam trick Dean into saying yes to an angel, you know, so that the complete overrun of Sam's consent last year will be really ignored. DEAN will, of course, be allowed to be really, really upset by this and explain in GREAT detail why it is a violation of Dean, but was different when he did it to Sam. Seriously, if we get out of this without Sam shoving an angel into Dean without Dean's full consent, I will call that a win.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-04-01 16:41
Quote:
Why does he get to "die" when Cain couldn't until Dean killed him with the mark and the blade?
A detail has been bugging me for a while. I have wanted to go back to First Born to see exactly what Cain said, but I remembered him saying that he tried to kill himself but couldn't. I haven't commented because I've been waiting to check my memory, but that isn't going to happen anytime soon!
Why couldn't Cain kill himself with the Blade? He bore the Mark. He had the Blade. Quick knife in the gut. The samurais figured out how to do it. Cain kept saying he couldn't die but then Dean was able to kill him with one blow. Why was Dean different than Cain? I get that the Mark turns a mortal into a demon when they die, thus Dean's first transformation, but I can't figure why Cain the demon could have been killed by Dean when Cain couldn't kill himself.
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-04-01 16:56
If Crowley's story was right, The MARK, itself, wouldn't let Cain go and brought him back. Giving Dean the Mark gave The Mark another victim that would keep it (The Mark) alive. We were told that The First Blade was the only weapon that could kill a Knight of Hell, any Knight of Hell, BUT The Blade won't work unless the wielder bears the Mark of Cain. Once Cain gave the Mark to Dean, he could finally be killed and not be brought back. At least that's my guess.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-04-01 18:34
that's the way I had interpreted as well but, to be honest, they play fast and loose with canon now, so it wouldn't surprise me if it changes again.