Are you all familiar with the opening scene of the film Office Space? That's the one where there's a traffic jam on the road and nothing is moving. The lead character zips left into a lane that doesn't move, then right into another lane that doesn't move, and then back again to get the same result. While all this is going on, an old man in a walker on the sidewalk is outpacing everyone and very far ahead.
Using that scene as my metaphor, I just described the most of the episode "Man's Best Friend With Benefits." Save for the last ten minutes, it was outpaced by an old man in a walker. As much as I've told myself to be diplomatic, I just can't say this any other way. This episode sucked.
But hey, I do confess that perhaps my disappointment strays toward the bitter side. And trust me when I say "stray" is putting it mildly. I do accept that filler episodes happen. It's par for the course. But, I was very disappointed anyway. Wildly inconsistent episodes from week to week is a season six and seven ploy. We've waited patiently over two years to get out of these ruts.
I mean come on, everything was finally starting to progress with the boys toward lollipops and candy canes, money and honey, health and wealth, every day is ice-cream sundae. Okay, maybe not that far, but Sam and Dean were talking again! They got a new home! Good things were happening to them. Sure, this whole God trial thing has cause a bit of a wrinkle, but geez, it's not like they're trying to stop the Apocalypse again, right?
No, what Sam and Dean are trying to do is to take something personal, their lifelong battles with demons and Hell, and close the door on that forever so that no one else has to suffer the way they have. Sounds like the perfect moment for solidarity, brothers in arms, all-we-have-is each-other mantras. Then why were we trotting down the well worn and horribly rutted path of trust issues again?
Using that scene as my metaphor, I just described the most of the episode "Man's Best Friend With Benefits." Save for the last ten minutes, it was outpaced by an old man in a walker. As much as I've told myself to be diplomatic, I just can't say this any other way. This episode sucked.
But hey, I do confess that perhaps my disappointment strays toward the bitter side. And trust me when I say "stray" is putting it mildly. I do accept that filler episodes happen. It's par for the course. But, I was very disappointed anyway. Wildly inconsistent episodes from week to week is a season six and seven ploy. We've waited patiently over two years to get out of these ruts.
I mean come on, everything was finally starting to progress with the boys toward lollipops and candy canes, money and honey, health and wealth, every day is ice-cream sundae. Okay, maybe not that far, but Sam and Dean were talking again! They got a new home! Good things were happening to them. Sure, this whole God trial thing has cause a bit of a wrinkle, but geez, it's not like they're trying to stop the Apocalypse again, right?
No, what Sam and Dean are trying to do is to take something personal, their lifelong battles with demons and Hell, and close the door on that forever so that no one else has to suffer the way they have. Sounds like the perfect moment for solidarity, brothers in arms, all-we-have-is each-other mantras. Then why were we trotting down the well worn and horribly rutted path of trust issues again?
It's not that Sam and Dean don't have trust issues. They do. It's just by season eight, Sam and Dean well know this about each other and have learned to work through it. That's what happens when you're grownups. The last few weeks especially we've moved beyond all that, but it's obvious Eugenie Ross-Leming and Brad Buckner forgot to read all the other scripts since their last episode, "A Little Slice of Kevin." Heck, given their take on witches, they must have forgotten to watch all the episodes since season three.
Of course Dean only trusts himself. Do you blame him? He's been let down a lot in his life. That's only come up, I don't know, a thousand times over the course of the last several seasons. I didn't need to hear Sam say it, especially through a thinly veiled conversation about how to kill a witch. It screams contrived drama, exactly the stuff writers have been moving away from recently. By the way, I'm extremely disappointed that the info about killing a witch and the witches spells didn't come from the new Men of Letters lair. I would have liked to have seen a payoff from Sam spending all those hours pouring through books. Heck, why wasn't any bit of this episode in the new home? I highly suspect this script was mostly written before all the recent events, and retro fitted hastily with the developments of only last week.
An interesting point I read in one of the reviews on this episode on another site (forgive me for not remembering which one), was that given the fact that this is episode 164 or something like that, is there any reason that when reuniting with an old friend, they didn't actually use an old friend that we've seen before? These phantom old friends that end up being new to us really take away from the audience connection with the story, mainly because we're in the dark in terms of background. We end up not caring for this guy and his predicament, nor being sold on the bond between James, Sam and Dean because the history means nothing to us.
I didn't hate James and Portia, but witch lore has never gone over well in this show. I never watched shows like "Charmed" and there have been no familiars in "The Vampire Diaries" (but there should be), so this was a new concept to me. It's my understanding that ideally Portia should have stayed a dog and her vocabulary limited to "woof" so adding the human side was definitely more interesting. She had spunk, and she was a really pretty girl and dog. But honestly, she had a sexual relationship with her master? For shame show, for shame. If they were really going to go there, they could of at least put her in bed with Sam. He loves dogs. (It's a joke people!)
Of course Dean only trusts himself. Do you blame him? He's been let down a lot in his life. That's only come up, I don't know, a thousand times over the course of the last several seasons. I didn't need to hear Sam say it, especially through a thinly veiled conversation about how to kill a witch. It screams contrived drama, exactly the stuff writers have been moving away from recently. By the way, I'm extremely disappointed that the info about killing a witch and the witches spells didn't come from the new Men of Letters lair. I would have liked to have seen a payoff from Sam spending all those hours pouring through books. Heck, why wasn't any bit of this episode in the new home? I highly suspect this script was mostly written before all the recent events, and retro fitted hastily with the developments of only last week.
An interesting point I read in one of the reviews on this episode on another site (forgive me for not remembering which one), was that given the fact that this is episode 164 or something like that, is there any reason that when reuniting with an old friend, they didn't actually use an old friend that we've seen before? These phantom old friends that end up being new to us really take away from the audience connection with the story, mainly because we're in the dark in terms of background. We end up not caring for this guy and his predicament, nor being sold on the bond between James, Sam and Dean because the history means nothing to us.
I didn't hate James and Portia, but witch lore has never gone over well in this show. I never watched shows like "Charmed" and there have been no familiars in "The Vampire Diaries" (but there should be), so this was a new concept to me. It's my understanding that ideally Portia should have stayed a dog and her vocabulary limited to "woof" so adding the human side was definitely more interesting. She had spunk, and she was a really pretty girl and dog. But honestly, she had a sexual relationship with her master? For shame show, for shame. If they were really going to go there, they could of at least put her in bed with Sam. He loves dogs. (It's a joke people!)
As for Dean, I had issues with how they chose to do his character this week. He at times seemed too clueless and slow to the take. He didn't know what a familiar was? Really? How many times has he dealt with witches, or even watched TV? The worst part of it though was how he didn't catch on that Portia and James were having a sexual relationship and Sam had to spell it out. Catching those sort of things is something Dean is very quick to spot. It was in character for Dean to ask Portia later about how a girl/dog gets intimate with a man like James, but just the way the whole scene played out, he looked like a simple minded buffoon. I know some people love awkward Dean, but it just didn't work for me this time. Maybe because I just didn't feel the chemistry between him and Portia. Or perhaps Jensen was cringing over the bad dialogue like I was.
The worst travesty about the episode though was it was just plain boring. Everything was flat. Do you know how detrimental a boring episode is on The CW? Sleep deprivation from daily life kicks in and next thing I know I'm waking up screaming to the noises of super bad 10 pm programming from my local affiliate that I would have otherwise turned off after the episode (this is often called news in some places). Trust me, you really don't want to see the crap my local affiliate puts on at 10 pm. It's too nightmarish for words.
When I re-watched the episode on iTunes, there were 42 minutes clocked. It wasn't until the 32 minute mark that something interesting happened. Astral projection. The show has used this one other time, in "Death Takes A Holiday." Except it wasn't really quite the same thing. Not being a real expert on my astral projection dynamics I'll spare the nitpicking, but I am a little surprised this hasn't been used more. It's a really neat trick. I sort of liked the trick that Spencer the bad witch did on Sam and Dean, taking them to their unhappy places, but even that didn't go over exactly right. Perhaps it was too rushed, or we never saw the ramifications. Dean said it affected him at the end, but I'm more of a show, don't tell person. Given the sluggish pace of the entire episode, it could have been worked in. Otherwise, there was little purpose for it.
The worst travesty about the episode though was it was just plain boring. Everything was flat. Do you know how detrimental a boring episode is on The CW? Sleep deprivation from daily life kicks in and next thing I know I'm waking up screaming to the noises of super bad 10 pm programming from my local affiliate that I would have otherwise turned off after the episode (this is often called news in some places). Trust me, you really don't want to see the crap my local affiliate puts on at 10 pm. It's too nightmarish for words.
When I re-watched the episode on iTunes, there were 42 minutes clocked. It wasn't until the 32 minute mark that something interesting happened. Astral projection. The show has used this one other time, in "Death Takes A Holiday." Except it wasn't really quite the same thing. Not being a real expert on my astral projection dynamics I'll spare the nitpicking, but I am a little surprised this hasn't been used more. It's a really neat trick. I sort of liked the trick that Spencer the bad witch did on Sam and Dean, taking them to their unhappy places, but even that didn't go over exactly right. Perhaps it was too rushed, or we never saw the ramifications. Dean said it affected him at the end, but I'm more of a show, don't tell person. Given the sluggish pace of the entire episode, it could have been worked in. Otherwise, there was little purpose for it.
The most significant part is the ending scene, so let's go there. Dean puts his faith in Sam, as he really should have in the beginning, and Sam tells him he's okay just a second before he starts coughing up blood yet hiding it from Dean. You know what would have been a better ending? Dean sees the blood, is horrified, and Sam replies, "It's only a flesh wound." Oh right, we've reverted back to trust issues.
Either way, if Dean sees the blood he has a bad feeling about all this, and if he doesn't see the blood he has a bad feeling about all this. Dean's not stupid, even if this episode did everything in it's power to make him look that way. What worries me about this setup is that we're in store for another "Why didn't you tell me the truth?" conflict. The last thing this show needs right now is that beaten to death horse. The ending was much better last week. Sam suffers, looks at Dean with a reassurance he can do this, and Dean's troubled reaction tells us under no uncertain terms, "Holy mother of Chuck, we are in some serious s***!" That's the season eight Winchester way. They are beyond the lies. The truth is what's going to get them this time.
I will mention something I did like and that's James and Portia lived. Sam and Dean's network of contacts and allies continues to grow, thus carrying on the theme of this season of universe rebuilding. Considering all that they've lost before, this is my favorite part of season eight. I'm not saying I'd love to see James and Portia again, but if I did, I wouldn't be upset. They are people of power and could really contribute to this whole Men of Letters network that seems to be in it's infancy. Now Sam and Dean can cross witch and familiar off the needs list.
All in all, I know many weren't bothered by this episode. I know very few found it great, but several found it acceptable. However, when writers in their attempts to drive character arcs forward end up driving it backward instead, I get furious. It happens with season one shows as well as season eight shows. Filler maybe a norm, but filler doesn't have to be careless. "Criss Angel is a Douchebag" comes to mind as how filler could be done. That episode, which relegated Sam and Dean to supporting players much like this one, at least sent Sam into Ruby's grip and delivered some fascinating internal dialogue. The plot went forward, even if it was a tiny push. This episode in its blatant character backtracking took out my shoulder because I was too busy throwing TV bricks at the set while watching.
As a matter of fact, why don't I give my ratings in terms of TV bricks? This was a four brick worthy episode. "Hammer of the Gods" is a five brick ep, so it wasn't that bad, but it was bad enough, especially given the timing. But hey, I'll just scratch this off the rewatch list and move on. It's the best thing I can do. Let's hope next week's filler is less polarizing.
Either way, if Dean sees the blood he has a bad feeling about all this, and if he doesn't see the blood he has a bad feeling about all this. Dean's not stupid, even if this episode did everything in it's power to make him look that way. What worries me about this setup is that we're in store for another "Why didn't you tell me the truth?" conflict. The last thing this show needs right now is that beaten to death horse. The ending was much better last week. Sam suffers, looks at Dean with a reassurance he can do this, and Dean's troubled reaction tells us under no uncertain terms, "Holy mother of Chuck, we are in some serious s***!" That's the season eight Winchester way. They are beyond the lies. The truth is what's going to get them this time.
I will mention something I did like and that's James and Portia lived. Sam and Dean's network of contacts and allies continues to grow, thus carrying on the theme of this season of universe rebuilding. Considering all that they've lost before, this is my favorite part of season eight. I'm not saying I'd love to see James and Portia again, but if I did, I wouldn't be upset. They are people of power and could really contribute to this whole Men of Letters network that seems to be in it's infancy. Now Sam and Dean can cross witch and familiar off the needs list.
All in all, I know many weren't bothered by this episode. I know very few found it great, but several found it acceptable. However, when writers in their attempts to drive character arcs forward end up driving it backward instead, I get furious. It happens with season one shows as well as season eight shows. Filler maybe a norm, but filler doesn't have to be careless. "Criss Angel is a Douchebag" comes to mind as how filler could be done. That episode, which relegated Sam and Dean to supporting players much like this one, at least sent Sam into Ruby's grip and delivered some fascinating internal dialogue. The plot went forward, even if it was a tiny push. This episode in its blatant character backtracking took out my shoulder because I was too busy throwing TV bricks at the set while watching.
As a matter of fact, why don't I give my ratings in terms of TV bricks? This was a four brick worthy episode. "Hammer of the Gods" is a five brick ep, so it wasn't that bad, but it was bad enough, especially given the timing. But hey, I'll just scratch this off the rewatch list and move on. It's the best thing I can do. Let's hope next week's filler is less polarizing.
Comments
On Thursday, I asked him what he thought about this last episode. He pretty much reflected your comments (mine too, for that matter) and said 'It sucked!' Too much about characters we don't know and had ZERO emotional attachment to and the brothers as peripheral characters (and Dean as an out-of-characte r character, to boot.)
I got the impression that these writers had a contract to fulfill and that was it. This story was kinda phoned in. What a waste of J2's (and our) time. So sad.
Ah well, hopefully back to normal next week.
That said, I knew this was coming. Jared, Jensen and Jeremy had mentioned in previous interviews that there were going to be issues about Sam doing the trials and hiding the effects, so I'd already had my tantrum over that issue....
Yes, the writers have found it necessary to do it again. And they seem to think that's what we want to see.... which I find baffling.
I found a few moments to enjoy, so I can rewatch the episode without hurling bricks, but it was definitely not one of my favourites.
They can only still be around because of singer. This one was a stinker except for the beautiful dog, dogs(heard there were 3 on set.
Jensen must have been rolling his eyes or maybe he just would zone out on baby girl thoughts to get threw this mess, and poor Jared having to get thru this one with a cold. Maybe he was coughing and Jensen was sneezing during some scenes and it would have been too much to cut.
Anyhow I think your review was spot on!!
What bugged me the most about this episode was that Dean was kind of a bumbling idiot. He's way smarter than that, especially when it comes to the sex stuff.
Sorry, that went a little long for a reply to you Chrisgranny. I'll get off my soapbox now.
The image of a black woman wearing a collar and calling a man master was unfortunate. I could ignore the fact that she turned into a dog or rather I decided she was more like a person who shapshifted into an animal rather than an animal who shapshifted into a person, because it made me feel better.
I have had issues with the handling of witches since The Curious Case of Dean Winchester. I'm bothered by the progression and explanation of what witches are. The first witches we see are a group of women who turn to witchcraft to gain control of their lives and improve them, they sell their souls to demons and are damned to Hell and will become demons. However once men become witches they either 1) live forever a la Patrick the first manwitch, who never mentions a demon deal and can't die and go to Hell anyway 2) live for 400 years again with no demon deal in sight and he and his witchy wife have no apparent demon deal or damnation ahead of them indicating that the way for a woman to avoid her demonic destiny is to have a man-witch on her side. Finally a male witch gets a beautiful female familiar who wears a dog collar all the time, calls him master and sleeps with him and AGAIN, no demon deal in sight. The ONLY woman who had magical power without a man and without being totally damned was a low powered Wiccan who was so powerless that she was controlled by a serial killer and was totally too weak to defend herself or save her son without Sam and Dean stepping in. The message on how witches become witches and the price has become more problematic and has reached the place where well collared women calling a man master.
That said, I liked Portia and she did actually show more agency than James. Although I could completely understand he not choosing Stuart, I could completely not understand her choosing boring James either.
The one thing I think is not too off was the trust issues coming back. I liked the fact that Sam does realize that after Ruby he has done enough so that he can be trusted and the lack of trust is on Dean's need to be in charge. Needing to do everything yourself is something I can relate to. And Dean not trusting Sam since he didn't look for him in Purgatory simply adds to Dean's mistrust. I admit that when Benny was mentioned and later when Sam concealed the nose bleed, I became concerned that we are moving to Dean finding out the trials are affecting Sam and we will get another rant about Benny the only trustworthy thing in Dean's life and the far better brother. I hope I am wrong.
I also understand Sam hiding the bleeding, because Dean did make it clear at the beginning that if he thought Sam was in any danger he was going to find a Hell Hound and take over the trials himself. Sam hiding things will end badly, but he's doing what Dean would do.
I am one of the ones who love awkward Dean; but not stupid Dean. His character is anything but stupid!!
They really didn't make us care at ALL about James. No action. Like you said, flat and boring. The big guys should have stepped in and changed some things in that script . To late now. Here is hoping next week has better things in store
Penny Jaime, I'm not sure that J & J have the power to make big changes. Which makes me wonder (rather irrelevantly to this topic), how come the boys have not been offered producer roles? I'm not sure how it works in TV land (i.e. television in general, not the network), but I remember Charmed (since there's been a bit of reference to Charmed lately!) offering their leading ladies producer roles after season 4 or 5 (Holly Marie Combs and Alyssa Milano accepted). And Simon Baker is now a producer on The Mentalist. Our boys probably have too much on their plate as it is, but I'm just wondering if anyone knows whether they were ever offered, or if the option of being a producer only exists if it's in contract, or what?
Quote:So sometimes becoming a "producer" doesn't mean the actors actually have much to do with production, it is simply a vanity title or a way to get a salary raise without raising the salaries for actors on a show. I don't know enough about the structure of Supernatural to know why the Js haven't become producers. I can guess that they got the salary that they wanted without the additional title and that they didn't want a "vanity" title, but really it probably came down to their agents, and what they wanted from Supernatural.
I agree on making Jensen and Jared producers. Jensen probably wouldn't want it. He likes directing. I seem to recall Jared saying that is what interested him. They let Jensen direct. They should let Jared produce. Although, I will be honest in saying I have never been clear on what that intails.
sam nailing dean about dean only trusting himself was spot on. that i think comes from dean's narcissistic tendencies, which he himself self diagnosed and therefore acknowledges. he always sees everything as his responsibility. dean's always been that way. he feels it's always up to him. s1 he was supposed to keep the family business going, thus getting sam. in s2 he couldn't let sam down by letting him die. s3 he wouldn't allow sam to help him out of the deal or sam would die, in season 4, he was supposed to stop the apocalypse. he felt that way all during season 5. he said over and over that he had to save everyone. it was all on him. if he didn't do it, no one would. dean needs to be in control, you can tell just by the fact that he always has to drive. sure he lets sam drive at times, but he's usually the one driving and he controls the radio at all times.
digressing a bit, anyway what i'm trying to say.....
the trust issue...i think that comes up because it will eventually, at least it's my hope, lead to the conversation that has sam finally give us what we all need so badly, his pov regarding the night dean disappeared and why sam believed him to be dead.
i know...how does the trust issue get us there? here's my take on how it can and hopefully does happen...
1. dean tells sam at the end of this eppy he trusts him.
2. sam doesn't want to lose that trust so he hides his symptoms from dean.
3. dean finds out and gets upset....back to trust issue again.
4. sam explains that he doesn't want to worry dean and that he can still do the trials.
5. dean wants to know why it's so important that sam be the one to complete these trials.
6. my hope........sam explains to dean that he owes him that much for failing to save him.
7. dean asks what sam's talking about...
8....we finally get some insight on why sam didn't supposedly look for him.
the trust issue was brought up by dean in the first place during the first half of the season, but then swept under the rug so they can deal with the task at hand.
dean's resentment of sam this season, the elephant in the room that has yet to be discussed, is all based on dean's pov. if dean is finding it hard to trust sam because he thinks sam didn't look for him, then dean and sam need to talk about it. dean needs to hear sam's pov, it's the only way they can ever resolve this issue and finally move on.
anyway, that's my thoughts on why they seemingly keep harping on the issue of trust....
Having said that, I'm the kind of person who can view a SPN episode without analysing it too minutely. There are definitely things I don't love about some eps but I haven't ever thought an episode sucked. Each 'weak' episode has - to me - always had some part (even just a scene) that I liked (yeah, including Bugs). And I'm happy that I can see it that way.
I often talk to my friend about an episode and we can throw theories all over the place and try to read between the lines, but I don't analyse it to the extent of bloggers/review ers. Which is good; that's why we have you and your team. It throws another light on the episode...and sometimes things I've missed or glossed over.
I'm not completely familiar with a lot of the writers, so let me ask: was this the first time these writers have penned a SPN ep? If so, I wonder whether they'll get another shot.
Speaking of continuity of characters (at the same time as going completely OT), I've always thought I'd like to see Michael again, from Something Wicked.
That said, I like awkward Dean but I can't stand stupid Dean.I didn't like the whole woman in dog collar/master stuff although yes, both dog and woman were very pretty.And come on Dean is in a witch bar and didn't try to start some s ***!Really?yy7
Any time I watch an episode its becasue of an 8 year die hard obsessive habit that is hardwired into my psyche.
At this point with all the OOOC behavior from Sam and no intent on the writers to course correct or explain on the horizan (reverse exorcism, thors hammer, the watcher outside his house...etc...) For me the real Sam winchester died throwing himself into Hell at the end of Season 5. The person/creature we see now is just some AU version ...perhaps Souless Sam really did 'grow' a soul...thus making him a completely new person who looks and sounds like Sam...but isn't and never will be simply becaue ther eis only one SAM and he is still in Hell.
Issues/problems are okay and fine when the character is not assassinated or in the fog, OOC, no POV, weird flashbacks where nobody knew what those flashbacks really told us!
When the brothers have issues it should be clear for us viewers that they act out of love and worry for the other.
I am thinking now that when I still want to participate SPN, I have just to think, Erik Kripke had a vision and he knew the brothers best, he paid attention, and he gave us something very special (and J2) and it ended with Swan Song!!
Now when I want to see further Sam and Dean, I have to cut the new Sam and Dean from the first 5 seasons, its like a new show!
Season 6 was soulless Sam without explanation till epi 6, and I had a hard time till I knew. And I got an angry Dean all the time. S7 the first 2 episodes were great and then it went down nowhere, stone no one was actually the one who needed a stone no 1, because of depressed drinking/drowni ng from Dean. And Sam's hard time was not shown till late in the season!
I still try to not expect much, but epi 12-14 did give me a new hope!
I don't understand Jeremy Carver and Robert Singer choosing to write Sam like this, or better not writing anything substantial for him -about him! I don't! I don't understand what they think this show is about, I just don't get it what they decided after all those years!
I have really no idea why they think this would Sam do, and then to make something into canon, what they never showed is also irritating.
And Dean and his better brothers got on my nerves too! Now all is suddenly erased till to the next big blow! I would like for them both that they get Sam and Dean and pay attention to both and I didn't saw this in those first 10 episodes!
But I'll say it again...epi 11 was the start of getting better and then 12, 13 and 14 were good IMO regarding Sam and regarding Sam/Dean!
I feel sad to lose another fan who was an advocate for Sam's character!
And the beginning of this season, the whole Sam/Amelia thing which was given almost ALL of the flashbacks and almost ALL of the attention was totally about Sam! Dean had nothing to do with that story. Meanwhile, we finally, FINALLY thought Dean would get an important story of his own, but no, Purgatory wasn't even about Dean, and was dropped within a couple of episodes to give more time for Sam's story. Same as usual.
I didn't like Dean saying that Benny had been a better brother than Sam, but the spectre amped up normal resentment to over the top levels. By the way, it's interesting that this should piss you off, but apparently, that fact that Sam left Dean for Dead without even trying to find him, treated him like garbage when he did get him back, and oh yeah, not only betrayed him by siccing an unstable hunter on Benny behind his back, but letting unstable man knock him out and leave him bleeding and unconscious, handcuffed to a radiator , doesn't?
SPN blamed everything on Dean. He had to apologize for a text, which admittedly was a crappy thing for him to do, but to me, the things Sam did to him were far worse, and Sam hasn't had to apologize for a damn thing.
I too want the brothers to be close and on the same page, but it's not gonna happen as long as all blame is placed on Dean while Sam gets a free pass. Hell, even though Dean encouraged Sam to go back to Amelia, SPN STILL blamed that decision, which Sam made of his own free will, on Dean.
I expected with showrunner Jeremy Carver who wrote the best brother-centric episodes that he would renew this unique brotherhood, and he denied Sam's character the insight he would have needed.
The drama of those first 10 episodes were unnatural for me, I just think they failed Sam, he reacted for me very strange and I want to add that he got only minimal explanations for tptb, so I can't take the first 10 episodes that serious for the characters of Sam and Dean, more the contrary they turned me off.
And you are one of those people who say "mytharc for Dean, "Dean is only a side kick"and "Dean's story is droppped" I see, and "Sam has to apologize"?
I can't take the first 10 episodes as a part of the Winchester Saga, others can, not me. It made this season as a whole not a season I would like to rewatch. Jeremy Carver treated the core of SPN very bad IMO, in even weakening Sam's POV! That is where is totally failed, but since epi 12 I enjoy SPN again!
I'm 'one of those people'? What, you mean a fan who's tired of how blatantly biased SPN is towards Sam, that they give him myth arc, love stories, EVERYTHING?
And yeah, Dean had to apologize. Why is it that you think Sam shouldn't? He did far worse to Dean than Dean's text, yet some of you crucified Dean and give Sam a free pass.
I don't want to crucify Sam. I only wish for some equality and fairness for BOTH characters. Of course, for this, I will be accused of not liking Sam, which is totally untrue.
Sam did not have a sl that stole from Dean or trumped what Dean had , he had a poor attempt at a human story and the one that didnt look for Dean and abandoned Kevin and the innocents of the world it seems. Dean did not , he again had a strong pov a relationship with a character that is still on going by the way .
The mytharc situation annoys me . If Dean had been given the trials there wouldnt of been equality it wouldnt of brought fairness to the show . Dean as the pov , the emotional insight and the relationships in both Benny and Castiel if he had been given the trials which he will be heavily involved in anyway where do you think Sam would be? what sl do you think Sam would of had sitting at a table reading books. In a ideal world both boys would of been given the trials to do but they didnt they went with Sam for whatever reasons.
If Sam's sl had been better done and Amelia and the human story they were giving him had captured the fandom/audience 's mind's in the same way Dean's Purgatory and Benny relationship has then things might of been different but to say Sam had a sl and Dean didnt is untrue .
Are you saying that Sam's story did not get all the flashbacks and most of the attention? Then I'm sorry, we must be watching a different version of SPN. The one I watched, Purgatory was merely touched on a few times, got only a few flashbacks that were mostly about Cas and then Benny, and was over before it began. Sam's story dominated the first 9 episode, got mutiple flashbacks almost every episode, and was placed front and center.
And Benny? Sam gave Dean an ultimatum about that so Dean, in a douchbag move, unceremoniously dropped him when he needed his friendship the most.
I will agree with you on one point; if they had actually taken thee time to explore Dean's time in Purgatory, what he had went through and how it had affeted him, it certainly would have been far more interesting than Sam's soap opera love triangle with a married women, a women who didn't know a thing about who Sam really was and a story that had no connection to the SPN world. But nonetheless, it was given Carver and Singer's full attention. .
Sam's story didnt dominate the first 9 episodes now did it . It wasnt front and centre nor did it have multiple flashbacks that Dean's sl didnt get. You also forget that Dean's sl was told in realtime with Benny not just set in flashbacks where as Sam's Amelia sl was set mainly in flashbacks and we only got her in realtime at the end of episode 9 . So again I do not agree with your view .
I cant stop you from seeing the show the way you do but I cannot agree with your interpretation of the first half of the season sorry.
Dean clearly hurt Sam with the text. I don't think anyone can reasonably question that. Dean recognized his wrong choices, acknowledged Sam's pain, and tried to make amends, as he should have. By the same token, I think it's pretty clear that Dean was hurt by Sam's actions and behavior in the first half of the season. So why shouldn't he similarly apologize and try to do his part to mend his relationship with Dean?
And Dean never took Sam's cozy normal life with a MARRIED woman away. Sam left her before he even knew Dean was alive.
Should we also surmise that Dean has never been able to have any kind of life for himself because he was saddled with Sam since he was four years old? No?
I keep getting accused of not liking Sam just because I refuse to kiss his ass. Not true, until this season I liked him very much. But the writers made him selfish and caring about nobody but himself and his married girlfriend. He not only screwed Dean over, but Kevin as well.
That was NOT Sam. I'm glad he is returning to the guy I always liked but that doesn't change the way he acted the first 9 episodes.
And I know this site, so I know full well no one will see my point of view, but there it is anyway.
Dean has been wrong, but Sam has been too. When Dean acts like a jerk, and he does sometimes, I will admit it. Please admit the times that Sam acts like a jerk, because he DOES as well. BOTH of these guys have been a-holes at times.
(Not that one brother has been worse than the other, but that they're both acting like jerks this season).
I have not been impressed with the behaviour, as written, of either Sam or Dean. They have both been absolute asses to the other, and I'm not enjoying it.
I'm largely a Sam girl, but I really watch for that bond... the third character... SamNDean. It seems they mostly just tolerate each other, and have only acted like they barely even like each other in one episode, and now we're back to the mistrust and lying. *rolleyes*
I will definitely not be watching the first half again, unless their actions are more fully explained in the remaining episodes... and I'm losing a lot of hope on that score.
I only hope that the new episode this week gives me some reason to keep hoping, or the mini-hiatus may give me an excuse to find something else to watch.
There are some who favor one brother or the other. Many who like both somewhat evenly with a lean towards one or the other sometimes. When someone makes a strong negative comment any one character you will ALWAYS get feedback. If you went through and looked at the comments many people have said BOTH brothers have done some things that stunk this year. Most folks here are very open to a civil discussion if it is presented that way. Sometimes people get touchy because they love and feel protective of a character and on occasion the tone of the post will set people off, but mostly this is a friendly site that welcomes all opinions and does not tolerate the ugly stuff that happens on other sites.
first off sam thought his brother died. it's totally understandable that he would think that. he felt the room vibrate, there was a blast and dean and cas and dick were gone. sam's initial reaction was to ask where his brother was...crowley told sam that dean shouldn't have been too close to dick...he then told sam he was truly alone. sam was in shock and crowley just told him his brother was dead and sam had noone. not only that, but all of this happened soon after sam almost died from a mental breakdown. the only reason sam is even alive at this point is because cas took on sam's hellucinations. ..but cas didn't take away sam's mental angish or his memories of hell. why is it so hard to comprehend that sam simply broke at the very thought that dean was dead, everyone he loved was dead and he was truly alone..
as for sam's flashbacks...no body cared about them because they were seen through his eyes yes, as they were his memories, but they weren't about sam...sam's own flashbacks were all amelia's pov. she did all the talking. sam only always looked far off and sad. there are literally hundreds of posts all agreeing that nobody understood what was really going on. half the fandom thought she was a hallucination. nothing about sam's fb made any sense. who cares that there were more of them? i got more out of one dean flashback than i did with all of sam's. at least with dean, you knew what was going on. it's not about quanitity it's about quality. dean's fbs had quality. sam's did not.
hell it's only now in the second half of the season that most of us are guessing as to what sam was doing with amelia in the first place...guessin g being the operative word...why is it that sam fans always have to guess/speculate what's going on with sam? i always know what dean is thinking and feeling...dean is no mystery i'll tell you that.
what did sam do to dean that was so bad? was it because he dared to be honest enough to tell dean that he didn't want to hunt after finding the tablets? as soon as dean came back, dean decided for sam that he would get back in the hunt again. sam didn't have time to grieve for his loss. not of amelia, the loss of the normal, safe, though unfulfilled life he just gave up. sam realized that he couldn't run from reality anymore, but that doesn't mean he didn't hold out hope that once his job was done he can do something else. sam didn't resent dean coming back into his life..he loves dean more than anything, but sam did resent dean in essence deciding what he should be doing. i think sam also resented dean telling sam that he only felt the way he did now...dean was right, but i believe sam would like to make those decisions on his own. being honest with dean wasn't treating him like garbage. sam is constantly being labeled as disloyal to dean if he dares want something different than what dean thinks he should have. dean's the one with the issue of abandonment but sam's the one who's punished for it. you know, sam lost the same people dean did.
do you feel sam treated dean like garbage because he dislikes and distrusts benny, as if sam should automatically trust dean's judgment. i'm sorry but no, sam shouldn't just trust dean's judgment. just like there have been times that dean didn't trust sam's. dean kept benny a secret. he still hasn't told sam anything about him. dean keeps singing benny's praises but won't tell sam a thing about him? why? what's the big deal? that alone is cause for alarm for sam.
dean has spent the first half of this season being cruel and hurtful to sam. he's also been lying to him. if dean is angry at sam because he thinks sam left him in purgatory so he can play house with a girl then he needs to confront sam about it as this is his issue. if dean chooses to ignore the fact that sam said he thought he died, that he imploded and he ran, that's on dean. if dean chooses to see things the way he wants to see them instead of just talking to sam about what he's feeling and why he's angry, then that's on him.
sam could've had benny killed by martin but sam respected dean enough to just have benny watched, as dean should've done. all martin was doing was making sure benny behaved. as soon as it seemed benny wasn't behaving, sam told dean the truth so dean could find out on his own. it wasn't until bodies turned up that sam believed benny was involved. dean sent sam away...if sam had to opportunity to stay and confront benny, who knows how it would've ended up. benny might have told sam what he told dean...sam may have given benny the benefit of the doubt for dean's sake...but we'll never know.
as for leaving dean behind, sam would'nt have left him if he didn't know he was ok. in all honesty, don't you think it was wise for sam to go with martin instead of leaving martin on his own...look what happened when dean sent sam off on a wild goose chase. i don't think it's necessary, but sam apologizing for that is fine with me.
as for the trials, both brothers will be involved so dean is not going to be lacking in any story. he never, imo, has been lacking in any story. it's always been about both of the boys....one can't succeed without the other.
sam has certainly never gotten a free pass..especiall y by the fandom. sam has apologized on many occasions. i'm sure he'll apologize for many more.
show did not blame dean for anything regarding amelia so i dont understand what you are talking about. sam's decision to leave amelia was made before dean even returned from purgatory. sam left amelia because he never loved her. he was only with her because he was running from his own life and all of his loss. but sam realized he couldn't run from reality anymore. that's why he left amelia.
the problem with the first half of this season is twofold
1. lack of pov from sam.
2. lack of communication between the brothers.
your post is a prime example of what i'm talking about. you concluded that sam just left dean to die. i just wonder if you would feel differently if you got to hear from sam what was going on in his head that night that dean disappeared? would you feel the sam way if you got to hear sam's side? i guess only you can decide for yourself. but i've seen many a post that yearns for the chance to learn what really went on with sam those unaccounted for 2-3 months before he hit the dog.
i'm hoping the second half will atone for the first half and i hold out more hope that we will get sam's pov.
you will probably get your wish regarding sam's apology. he'll most likely apologize for letting dean down for not being able to save him. see i'm of the belief that sam did try to find dean but couldn't. he had no resources, no backup, no clue. the mind is a very powerful thing and i think sam, as a defense mechanism, convinced himself that dean was dead. i think believing dean dead was easier to bear than the alternative, failing to save him from wherever he was. i think there's more to sam's story and i'm not convinced that we won't get to hear it.
needless to say i guess we can agree that we will definitely never see eye to eye on this matter ... hey you know what they say, different eyes, different views.
Sam didn’t say that he thought his brother died—at least, not definitively. He said, “I didn’t know whether you were alive or eating tacos somewhere.†I also tend to think more of Sam and his genius research ability (sincerely). He had access to all of Bobby’s books, the entire Campbell library, and the list of contacts that produced the hunter that led Dean to Castiel in TBAI, which saved Sam’s life when Sam thought all was lost. So he was not completely without resources. Crowley didn’t tell him his brother was dead—he told him he was on his own, true. We really don’t know how much Sam was still suffering from his mental anguish or memories of hell. He seemed as functional as Dean was while living with his hell memories, so I’m not sure show has sold the idea that he was still in crisis from his hell PSTD at that point.
Now, I do agree that Sam’s flashbacks could have done better by Sam if they’d showed that anguish/breakdo wn, instead of showing Sam getting together with Amelia. I think it’s fairly hyperbolic to say that ‘nobody’ cared about them, or that they were disliked because they were Sam’s POV. First, there are people who have posted who did enjoy the Amelia storyline, and I don’t think the reasoning for those who didn’t was because they were Sam’s POV. Plus, here you say that no one like them because they were Sam’s memories, but they were told through Amelia’s POV? I don’t think that tracks. I think people understood what was going on, and I also think a lot of the people saying they wanted his flashbacks to be hallucinations was because they weren’t satisfied that this was truly Sam’s story. I understand that. But they did provide Sam with just a quality storyline as Dean had in S6, and it can’t be denied that they were a storyline.
Actually, I thought Sam stated outright what he was doing with Amelia. He was lost, and when he met Amelia it gave him someone to hold onto. They clung to each other in their mutual grief. I think Sam told us exactly what was going on with him, so I don’t see a big mystery surrounding what was going on with Sam in the first half.
I think what Sam did that was hurtful, personally, is that he refuses to acknowledge that his actions had any affect on Dean. It would take very little to say, “Dean, I’m sorry you were hurt by the fact that I didn’t look for you.†But no, when Dean returned he didn’t decide for Sam that he would return to the hunt. Dean may have wanted him to, but he was surprised that Sam was going to come with him. Sam deserves credit as an adult who makes his own decisions. But once he did decide to go with Dean, I think he could have not made his distaste for hunting, Dean’s choice for his life, quite so clear, or that he was only there out of obligation. IF someone is helping me with a task but looks down on the task and talks about how much they’d rather be doing something else, it does send off a “I’m only doing this because I have to†vibe, which doesn’t make me feel particularly good or valued. Sam’s resentment of Dean is his projecting unhappiness for his own decisions onto Dean, because Sam didn’t want to leave normal but did anyway, so he blamed Dean. Yes, Dean was hurt and lashing out—and Sam did nothing to address the obvious hurt his brother was feeling. He ignored it until he told Dean he didn’t want to hear about it anymore or he would leave. So Sam was just as unreceptive to Dean’s issues as Dean was to his at that point. And no, I don’t label Sam as disloyal. He’s allowed to want something else. But he should go after it, instead of staying with Dean and being passive-aggress ive about his own choices. He could tell Dean how he plans to keep in touch with him once he rejoins normal. He could have tried to reassure Dean since it’s obvious he felt abandoned. These are Dean’s issues, but Sam is Dean’s brother—shoul dn’t he want to extend a little effort to make him feel better?
I feel like I’ve discussed my feelings about the contradictory attitude Sam showed about Benny compared to other monsters at length on this board, so I’ll leave that at I disagree. Sam doesn’t have to trust Dean’s judgment, but if he wants Dean to trust his I’m not sure why thinking he should reciprocate is wrong.
Dean did have attitude in the first half—and so did Sam. Neither one was willing to communicate beyond perfunctory explanations or see the others point of view. I’m not sure how we can be unsatisfied with Sam’s POV, but expect Dean to be totally on board. I agree that Dean needs to talk to Sam, but it is a two-way street and Sam could give some effort, too.
I’ve also discussed Sam’s need to send Martin after Benny when he’s never tracked any of the monsters they’ve let go before. I don’t think Dean had any reason after that to think that Sam would give Benny the benefit of the doubt or to trust him not to try to kill Benny if he brought them into contact, because Sam had already expressed that he would have no problem killing him. But yes, once Dean was knocked out, Sam did leave him behind to kill his friend. I do think Sam should apologize for that, just as Dean was right to apologize for the text.
We can only see what Dean’s role in the trials will be. I find myself wary, but if you don’t, that’s fine.
Neither Sam nor Dean ever gets a free pass from all of fandom. Some hold Sam accountable for things, while Dean catches blame for other things from other corners of fandom.
I don’t know why anyone would blame Dean for Amelia. Sam chose to leave her in the opener, and he chose to leave her in torn and frayed.
I agree that communication between the brothers was a primary problem with the first half, because the boys had to refuse to communicate in order to keep the drama going. That is on both of them. I just don’t feel like Sam had no POV in the first half—I don’t think we were happy with what his POV was showing us. Your mileage may vary, and that’s fine.
I think it would be helpful to see more of Sam’s aftermath right after Dean disappeared, but at this point I don’t think show is going back there. The lost year—Sam’s time off and Dean in purgatory—see ms to be done. But yes, I agree that right now show focused on the wrong thing when they decided to show Sam’s POV—they focused on his normal with Amelia instead of his grief, and I agree that was detrimental to Sam. I sincerely doubt we’ll ever see Sam apologize at this point. I think show has moved on, and they never seemed to think Sam had anything to apologize for—because if someone you love is hurt, you should just consider it their problem and do nothing. There’s nothing that has indicated that Sam looked but couldn’t find him. If he had, I think fans would be more forgiving, but that’s not the story that show is telling.
I agree that it’s possible Sam convinced himself that Dean was dead as a defense mechanism. He needs to recognize that if it’s true, and realize his own faults in the boys’ first half conflicts. I doubt that will happen. As I said, I think show is currently pretending the first half didn’t happen, so I doubt we’ll see more from either Sam or Dean’s storylines from the front 9 at this point.
Different perspectives are fine. They make discussion interesting.
Sam didn’t say that he thought his brother died—at least, not definitively. He said, “I didn’t know whether you were alive or eating tacos somewhere.†I also tend to think more of Sam and his genius research ability (sincerely). He had access to all of Bobby’s books, the entire Campbell library, and the list of contacts that produced the hunter that led Dean to Castiel in TBAI, which saved Sam’s life when Sam thought all was lost. So he was not completely without resources. Crowley didn’t tell him his brother was dead—he told him he was on his own, true. We really don’t know how much Sam was still suffering from his mental anguish or memories of hell. He seemed as functional as Dean was while living with his hell memories, so I’m not sure show has sold the idea that he was still in crisis from his hell PSTD at that point.
i respectfully disagree. sam's first words to dean were "you're freakin alive"? there are many ways to convey one's feelings as we know with the winchesters. sam's words indicate to me that he thought him dead. he also made a comment to dean about his whole family being dead. in my opinion, sam didn't assume dean was off somewhere, he believed he died and for all the reasons i stated in my post, it's totally understandable that sam believed that or possibly as i've stated convinced himself of that. in my opinion sam did nothing wrong. sam appeared to have accepted that his brother died. isn't that what all of us must do when we lose someone, otherwise we may as wll die as well. people are upset because they feel sam should have known, i don't agree that he should of known. and i'm sorry but i can't agree with you that sam was fine mentally having just three episodes prior practically died himself, let alone undergoing electric shock. he managed through his hellucinations, but as levisam said in slash fiction, it was lucifertv 27/7 and he couldn't figure out how sam was even walking around. sam is very strong, i agree, but he isnt superman. he isn't as strong when dean isn't around either. dean was gone..in that moment his touchstone was gone...everyone was gone...i don't find it out of the realm of possibility that sam couldn't deal with it. as for sam seemingly accepting dean's death? well how many times has dean told sam that he should've stayed dead. that him coming back was unnatural. how many times did dean prevent sam from letting him save him in s3. he yelled at sam for thinking he made a deal in s4. hell, the last thing bobby told sam was when you're gone...stay gone. sam listened to dean and bobby and he was resented for it.
i have to ask what eppy he said that in...the line about the tacos you mentioned. you know lala made a very good point about the first half of the season's inconsistencies . i recall sam telling dean a few different times he thought he was dead. at least twice i know of. then you mention this line which i totally don't recall at all. the very first words out of sam were you're freaking alive, he genuinely seemed shocked and happy all at once. i'm not sure which eppy his comment about his whole family being dead was made. but like i said, i believed from those comments and everything else that sam honestly believe dean dead. but if sam also made the comment you said...then there's that inconsistency again. why a comment like that ? was it intentional to give us all a hint? or do the writers not pay attention to ea. others scripts?
...when dean came back sam asked him about purgatory and dean shut sam out. ouch for sam, i mean after everything? and i'm sorry but when dean came back it was business as usual for him. that in his opinion included sam. dean made sam feel guilty at every turn for not staying in the hunt. he had something to say about it in nearly 10 episodes. not a moment went by that dean didnt go out of his way to make sam feel bad for running away from hunting. of course sam is going to hunt with dean, how could he not after all that guilt being hurled at him. the vet did the same thing..making sam feel guilty about hitting the dog and then just leaving it. all sam tried to do was explain to dean in the car that he didn't want to hunt but dean didn't want to hear it. then dean told sam that it was how he was feeling now. do you realize that dean didn't at any point ask sam what was going on with him that year. he showed no interest in sam's time whatsoever. he just asked if there was a girl. sam mention a girl and then no girl. dean presumed that sam went off to play house and just left him in purgatory. this was his own conclusion from one statement from sam. again, at no point has dean shown an interest in anything sam did that year. he never inquired about amelia. nothing. don't you think that hurt sam? dean's total disinterest in sam's year. of course sam is going to feel a bit resentful. sam showed an interest in dean's time the moment dean came back, it's really not his fault that dean shut him out, which i would have to guess might cause a bit of resent there. .
what i'm getting at is that both boys felt resentment towards ea.other. dean hurt sam just as much as you feel sam hurt dean. they were reacting to ea. other instead of talking to and listening to ea. other.
that's the problem.
i have to both disagree and agree with your comment about the fbs and sam's time with amelia. i thought as i've stated that sam's relationship with amelia was pretty much a misery loves company thing...i think you saw it the same way. he sought her out because he needed to help someone. i feel it's because he couldn't save dean. so he tried to save someone else. it was doomed from the start of course because it was never about love imo, it was about loss and escapism, at least for sam. it seems that we both get that from the fbs as choppy and nonsensical as they were. but i have read many many many posts from fans and writers both that were confused about the fbs as they were in my opinion as well not seen from sam's pov. all the talking was done by amelia. sam just listened most of the time with a sad far off look on his face. it's that lost look and her therapizing that eventually got me to figure out why sam was with this chick....but alot of people didn't and still don't get it. sam's story was poorly executed imo if a mass amount of people don't understand the point. the fans are intelligent and if more are not getting than are, then i have to say something is very wrong with the way the story is being told.
i do agree with you full on that sam's lack of pov has been detrimental to his character for alot of people. but i haven't given up hope that we won't get to hear sam say something to dean regarding that night. there's no reason to have to flashback to it..i know the flashbacks are over. but i don't find it out of the realm of possibility that sam at some point would admit that he needs to do the trials because he feels he failed dean, by believing that dean was dead.
i also hold out hope that we get more on sam because comments have been made by jared that there was/is more to the story according to some posters in another thread. i personally read an interview where jared said that sam not looking was a misunderstandin g. i also read an interview where jared voiced concern to carver himself about the storyline and carver apparently told jared not to worry.
not to mention the mystery surrounding sam..as normal and mundane as those fbs were. things still don't make sense concerning sam...big questions still dangling.
1. the mystery guest who was watching sam the night he left.
2. sam's ability to do a reverse exorcism on the spot without ever having done one before? sam is smart, but noone can pull of a reverse exorcism at the top of one's head without practice. sam didn't start memorizing exorcisms til s3....jus in bello
3. the whole timing issue. dean and don returning within days of ea. other. sam and dean's timing the same...why did whoever told benny about the loophole not open the portal until dean spent a year in purgatory...you know what i mean? were they waiting for dean to gain enough trust in benny where he would agree to let benny in him? or was dean supposed to do something else in purgatory before they let him out? it just seems to me that don didn't come back to give sam that extra incentive he needed to leave amelia until benny and dean came to their agreement.
anyway emmau, i guess we agree and disagree on a few things. if you read this, since you can't really hear inflections in the written word, i just wanted to let you know that if my post sounded passionate in some places, it's just because i love my boys, both of them. i do tend to see things from sam's perspective more as i tend to root for the underdog, and i've always seen sam that way. but in no way do i mean to sound bitchy in this post...that was not my intention at all. i have to run out the door now, so i don't have time to edit and reword anything that may sound...impassi onate? .lol. we all have different views and i like that we share them. they get intense but that's only because we love our boys. so again, if anything i've written seems like i've written it out of anger i want to assure you that it wasn't ...like i said passionate yes...angry no.:)
I also found it odd that when Dean asked Sam if he looked for him, Sam evades the question or deflects IIRC. If Sam genuinely and honestly thought Dean was dead, why wouldn't he just say, "No, Dean. I didn't search for you b/c I thought you were dead, man. And the last time you died, you went to Heaven so I didn't want to mess w/that. We've been down that road too many times brother. I just tried to move on as best I could." They had Sam say nothing, and then Dean mentioned there being a girl so it seems like Sam ditched Dean for a girl.
So, I can't say it was clear why Sam didn't look for Dean. He says the thing about his whole family being dead, but then as Emmau and others have mentioned, he also said something about not knowing what happened to Dean and thinking he was in another town or something. I don't recall that taco line either but several have mentioned it.
There was no clarity there. Sam was written in this inconsistent, crazy way so the boys would have conflict w/each other. I'm not sure why the writers wanted them in conflict but that seemed to be the main goal.
i'm not even sure what dean was mad at. was he angry because sam believed that he died? or was he angry that sam left the hunt?
there are people who are waiting for sam to apologize for not looking. but if he believed dean was dead, i don't see him looking for dean. there is no reason for sam to believe dean would be anywhere but heaven.
was dean upset because he thought sam moved on and forgot about him? did he think sam was all happy and playing house and wasn't thinking about his brother?
see i don't think dean was written that well either. he was more understandable in most ways than sam was, but i still have no idea what dean was angry about. what he wanted from sam. all i know is what dean fans are saying dean wants...which is what sam fans have been doing for 7 1/2 yrs....
i don't see that sam needs to apologize for believing his brother dead. but i do agree that sam should've let dean know that he wasn't living this happy life that dean might have imagined sam living and he totally didn't forget his brotherthat that would and could ever happen.
but i have to say that dean didn't make it easy for sam to say much of anything in the way of reassuring dean, because he was sort of busy upsetting sam.
what i mean is, i believe that sam might have talked to dean earlier if dean hadn't kept digging at sam. i'm not exaggerating when i say dean threw digs at sam in 8 out of 10 eps. i mean the first couple of times of course yes..i get it. i totally think i understand where dean was coming from and i think sam may have gotten it as well. dean just kept digging at sam and sam started to get angry. so instead of seeing where dean was coming from, sam was instead resentful. i think he started to get all upset and then all these thoughts started buzzing through his head, like he asked dean right away about purgatory but dean shut him out; dean presumed that sam just left him to die, which sam would never do; he didn't consider what sam went through losing him yet again. i get it, dean was too angry to think about these things. sam was reacting to dean's anger with his own. it's a circle...round and round and round they went.
the first half of the season sam and dean basically spent on a merry go round. sam and dean angry at ea. other for niether one getting where the other was coming from. lack of communication and misguided perception being the theme it seems to me.
but here's what bugs me. carver had all this soap opera drama between the boys and just had them drop it so they can deal with the task at hand. all that crap we had to endure, all that misunderstandin g between the boys and it's still there. i guess they are saving it for a later date?
i still think sam is going to give that apology others want from him. it's not unusual for sam to apologize for something that happened a while ago. i still think the fact that these issues have been saved for a later date, the conversation will arise between the boys that will lead them to discuss the events of the first half of the season. i think the conversation will come as a result of dean finding out about sam's symptoms, getting upset sam hid them, sam explaining he didnt' want to worry dean, that he wanted him to have faith he can do the trials and dean questioning him why it's so important he be the one to do it. that's when i think we'll get some answers.
i still think there is something very wonky about this storyline...a lot of unanswered questions and inconsistencies as you pointed out. i can't help but wonder if carver created all that melodrama just so he can distract us.
lala i still have hope that there is more here than meets the eye.
Now, if Sam really believed that Dean was dead, and there was nothing he could do, I think I would agree with you that he did nothing wrong. I still find it problematic that he didn’t even try to find out for sure, though, instead accepting the King of Hell’s word as gospel. I don’t think he should have known, but again, when you don’t try to find something out, instead taking the word of someone that you know is untrustworthy, people don’t feel as much sympathy when it turns out you were wrong. I agree that Sam isn’t as strong when Dean isn’t around, but we’re not supposed to believe he’s a basket case without Dean, either. Show hasn’t shown any signs of hell affecting Sam post 7.17, so I’m not sure that we’re supposed to think it’s any more debilitating than Dean’s hell damage at this point, and that never seems to earn Dean a pass. So, yeah, I think Sam could have done more than what he did. I understand perspectives vary, though, and that’s fine.
Even then, though, I think if Sam had shown some sign of contriteness for having not looked, or even having been wrong for thinking Dean was dead (not because it was necessarily his fault, but because he didn't help his brother when he maybe could have--Sam is the kind of person that, to me, would feel guilty about that even if there was nothing he could do), I think that would have gone a long way. Instead, he seemed to just blow off Dean's hurt until he flat out told him he didnt' want to hear it anymore. I don't need Sam to break out sackcloth and ashes, but a little acknowledgement here could have really helped repair things. But instead, we got Sam trying to convince Dean how happy he'd be hunting alone. Again, Sam was done no favors, and I have to think it was done to keep the drama going.
See, I never thought Sam’s reaction in the season opener was as strong as someone faced with someone suddenly returned from the dead should be. I remember there being a lot of speculation that his reaction meant Sam knew more than he was letting on, but that never panned out. So to me, it was just an odd reaction. I agree that inconsistency was a large problem in the first half, and in some ways still continues. I do think the writers are inconsistent with storylines and even characterizatio n at times. They need a continuity master, or maybe just a big whiteboard in the writers room to remind everyone of the salient character points/developm ents.
Dean came back and employed his usual coping methods—shutt ing everything down until he felt in control. I’m not sure why this is unusual, or somehow personal to Sam. Now, if you want me to say that Dean exhibited some bad behavior in the first half, I agree. Yes, he was abrupt and closed off and lashing out of hurt for Sam’s seeming nonchalance/amb ivalence to him. He was angry. He resented Sam for blithely (as Sam projected) throwing away both Dean and the job Sam had spent several years telling him was so worthwhile. Sam had right to be upset/hurt by that. But Sam did not attempt to engage at all. He withdrew from Dean and showed very little concern, in my opinion, abut Dean’s issues with him or Dean’s issues about purgatory. He asked about purgatory seriously once in the opener, and he never really pursued it after that. He didn’t extend himself to try to repair his relationship with Dean. He passive-aggress ively blamed Dean for his own choice to go back to hunting, and he shut Dean out from his year off just as much as Dean did him. So, no, it shouldn't all be on Dean, but Sam isn't free and clear here to me, either.
So we are in agreement, it seems. Sam and Dean both resented each other, and they both hurt each other. They were each so wrapped up in their own issues they didn’t listen to each other.
I’m sorry, I don’t agree that Sam’s flashbacks were not from his POV. Amelia was talking, but she was talking to Sam. Sam was talking to her. He was building a relationship with her. This was his view of their relationship. Sam tends to bond with people that he sees part of himself in, and he did see the lost, hurt part of himself in her. I saw no sign that he was ‘saving her’—I think more accurately is his assessment in 8.8. They were using each other as an escape. I think some fans were looking for something bigger or a twist, but that’s not the story that was presented to me. But since every fan sees things from their own perspective, I’m not saying that the fans who don’t get it are wrong—I’m just saying that I don’t think there’s a big mystery about why Sam was with Amelia. I do agree that there were issues with the way the story was told, but I don’t think it was such a failure that it was completely incomprehensible.
For me, the big failure of Sam’s POV is regarding his relationship with Dean. I have no idea how Sam feels a lot of the time about Dean. I heard Sam say he fell apart after Dean disappeared, but that’s not what we see, especially since Sam almost immediately seems resentful of Dean’s return. One could argue that it was because of Dean’s hurt at not being looked for, but you’d think Sam would try to fix that problem instead of ignoring it if that were true. I’m glad you aren’t giving up hope about getting a Sam flashback or a conversation where Sam admits he feels he failed Dean and some of that may have caused his withdrawl/resen tment (no one likes having a constant reminder of a ‘failure’†”I think that’s part of the reason Sam resents Benny). I don’t feel that way, because I don’t think show really thinks Sam did anything wrong or has anything more to explain. Which is sad, but there it is. I hope you’re right, though, I really do.
Show has always left threads dangling, and again, while I hope for answers to your list, again I don’t hold out much hope.
Thank you for your last paragraph, but rest assured, I took your words in the spirit of debate and hope my words are taken in the same fashion. I’ve always said we need mood fonts on the internet. Like you, I like spirited debate and think passion makes conversation good. I also think as we discuss we can find that we have more common ground than we think, and that’s always a good thing.
first off sam thought his brother died. it's totally understandable that he would think that. he felt the room vibrate, there was a blast and dean and cas and dick were gone. sam's initial reaction was to ask where his brother was...crowley told sam that dean shouldn't have been too close to dick...he then told sam he was truly alone. sam was in shock and crowley essentially just told him his brother was dead and sam had noone. not only that, but all of this happened soon after sam almost died from a mental breakdown. the only reason sam is even alive at this point is because cas took on sam's hellucinations. ..but cas didn't take away sam's mental angish or his memories of hell. why is it so hard to comprehend that sam simply broke at the very thought that dean was dead, everyone he loved was dead and he was truly alone..
as for sam's flashbacks...no body cared about them because they were seen through his eyes yes, as they were his memories, but they weren't about sam...sam's own flashbacks were all amelia's pov. she did all the talking. sam only always looked far off and sad. there are literally hundreds of posts all agreeing that nobody understood what was really going on. half the fandom thought she was a hallucination. nothing about sam's fb made any sense. who cares that there were more of them? i got more out of one dean flashback than i did with all of sam's. at least with dean, you knew what was going on. it's not about quanitity it's about quality. dean's fbs had quality. sam's did not.
hell it's only now in the second half of the season that most of us are guessing as to what sam was doing with amelia in the first place...guessin g being the operative word...why is it that sam fans always have to guess/speculate what's going on with sam? i always know what dean is thinking and feeling...dean is no mystery i'll tell you that.
what did sam do to dean that was so bad? was it because he dared to be honest enough to tell dean that he didn't want to hunt after finding the tablets? as soon as dean came back, dean decided for sam that he would get back in the hunt again. sam didn't have time to grieve for his loss. not of amelia, the loss of the normal, safe, though unfulfilled life he just gave up. sam realized that he couldn't run from reality anymore, but that doesn't mean he didn't hold out hope that once his job was done he can do something else. sam didn't resent dean coming back into his life..he loves dean more than anything, but sam did resent dean in essence deciding what he should be doing. i think sam also resented dean telling sam that he only felt the way he did now...dean was right, but i believe sam would like to make those decisions on his own. being honest with dean wasn't treating him like garbage. sam is constantly being labeled as disloyal to dean if he dares want something different than what dean thinks he should have. dean's the one with the issue of abandonment but sam's the one who's punished for it. you know, sam lost the same people dean did.
do you feel sam treated dean like garbage because he dislikes and distrusts benny, as if sam should automatically trust dean's judgment. i'm sorry but no, sam shouldn't just trust dean's judgment. just like there have been times that dean didn't trust sam's. dean kept benny a secret. he still hasn't told sam anything about him. dean keeps singing benny's praises but won't tell sam a thing about him? why? what's the big deal? that alone is cause for alarm for sam.
dean has spent the first half of this season being cruel and hurtful to sam. he's also been lying to him. if dean is angry at sam because he thinks sam left him in purgatory so he can play house with a girl then he needs to confront sam about it as this is his issue. if dean chooses to ignore the fact that sam said he thought he died, that he imploded and he ran, that's on dean. if dean chooses to see things the way he wants to see them instead of just talking to sam about what he's feeling and why he's angry, then that's on him. yes..i am totally aware that i keep saying that this is on dean. and the reason i'm saying it is because dean is the one who is feeling all this resentment towards his brother. he should confront sam instead of lashing out constantly.
let me add this, because i love both boys and i'm not blind of sam's resentment either. i didn't say it above and i should have....sam should've told dean that he resented dean for deciding what sam should be doing with his life instead of letting sam make those decisions, even if that decision does end up being what dean said.
sam could've had benny killed by martin but sam respected dean enough to just have benny watched, as dean should've done. all martin was doing was making sure benny behaved. as soon as it seemed benny wasn't behaving, sam told dean the truth so dean could find out on his own. it wasn't until bodies turned up that sam believed benny was involved. dean sent sam away...if sam had to opportunity to stay and confront benny, who knows how it would've ended up. benny might have told sam what he told dean...sam may have given benny the benefit of the doubt for dean's sake...but we'll never know.
as for leaving dean behind, sam would'nt have left him if he didn't know he was ok. in all honesty, don't you think it was wise for sam to go with martin instead of leaving martin on his own...look what happened when dean sent sam off on a wild goose chase. i don't think it's necessary, but sam apologizing for that is fine with me.
as for the trials, both brothers will be involved so dean is not going to be lacking in any story. he never, imo, has been lacking in any story. it's always been about both of the boys....one can't succeed without the other.
sam has certainly never gotten a free pass..especiall y by the fandom. sam has apologized on many occasions. i'm sure he'll apologize for many more.
show did not blame dean for anything regarding amelia so i dont understand what you are talking about. sam's decision to leave amelia was made before dean even returned from purgatory. sam left amelia because he never loved her. he was only with her because he was running from his own life and all of his loss. but sam realized he couldn't run from reality anymore. that's why he left amelia.
the problem with the first half of this season is twofold
1. lack of pov from sam.
2. lack of communication between the brothers.
the second half of the season has them at least communicating.. ..but what i really think we need most of all is to understand what was going on with sam .
your post is a prime example of what i'm talking about. you concluded that sam just left dean to die. i just wonder if you would feel differently if you got to hear from sam what was going on in his head that night that dean disappeared? would you still feel the same way if you got to hear sam's side? i guess only you can decide for yourself. but i've seen many a post that yearns for the chance to learn what really went on with sam those unaccounted for 2-3 months before he hit the dog.
i'm hoping the second half will atone for the first half and i hold out more hope that we will get sam's pov.
just a side note, you will probably get your wish regarding sam's apology. he'll most likely apologize for letting dean down for not being able to save him. see i'm of the belief that sam did try to find dean but couldn't. he had no resources, no backup, no clue. the mind is a very powerful thing and i think sam, as a defense mechanism, convinced himself that dean was dead. i think believing dean dead was easier to bear than the alternative, failing to save him from wherever he was. i think there's more to sam's story and i'm not convinced that we won't get to hear it.
needless to say i guess we can agree that we will definitely never see eye to eye on this matter ... hey you know what they say, different eyes, different views.
I was one of the ones who also said that to have James be a "prior acquaintance" that we've never seen before was foolish and didn't work. There are literally dozens of characters that the show could have brought back so that we the fans could have felt more connected to what was going on. As you said they could have used Linda Blair's character from The Usual Suspects, the Momwitch from Repo man, hell, even Gary from Swap Meat would have been more interesting. James was boring, unconvincing, and I never believed for one second that Sam and Dean knew him or cared about him. I DID like Portia as a character and I really liked the actress, maybe they can bring her back and give her a role suited to her talents rather than putting her in a situation (beastiality, dog collar, "master") that makes everyone squirm with all of the negative implications.
I do disagree with two things (just a little though
Secondly, I guess the whole trust thing coming up again didn't really bother me that much. Yes, the brothers had just made great strides forward in the previous episode, but the core issues are still there and still unresolved between them. It's pretty much human nature to take a step forward and then a step back. Families are forever retreading old ground and hurts despite having constructive conversations about moving on. Despite the progress they seemed to make in Trail and Error, Dean was once again trying to convince Sam to let him take over the trials, so it made sense to me that Sam would go back to the question of trust. Dean may be giving lip service to trusting Sam, but his continued insistence that he is better suited to do the trails says otherwise. I think Dean is only saying that he trusts Sam at the moment because he really has no other choice, and Sam can see that.
I DID think that the whole "Sammy I trust you" "cough, cough, I'm fine" scene was like a bad soap opera moment though. How clumsy was that? If they had done that scene in the motel room and had Sam go into the bathroom to cough, it would have worked so much better. I think you are correct though; they have messed with the order of the episodes somewhat this season, and this one feels like it should have been much earlier....the brother's seemed like they were more in the head space after Torn and Frayed instead of after Trial and Error. I wonder if this one even had added scenes tacked on later to 'shoehorn' it into it place in the season? It was a clumsy, awkward episode.
and maybe you are right about this not being about trust issues...perhap s it is about control...and Dean being unable to subjicate Sam into bending to Deans will. Maybe all Dean wants is a pet? perhaps he should put a collar around Sams neck just as Portia had one around hers?
Yes, Dean did want to do the trials by himself, without Sam being in danger. But he also wanted them to close the gates of hell together, which means he is treating Sam like an equal partner, which is also presumably a good thing. Sure, they’re diametrically opposed, but no more than the idea of Dean gaining self-esteem by watching his brother accomplish something he wanted to do himself. Show does that sometimes. Sam believes he can have a normal life without Dean being dead, clearly, which is why he has been advocating being able to return to normal all season. One does not necessarily preclude the other.
Am I supposed to think that it’s horrible that Dean was hurt that Sam by his own admission didn’t lift a finger to find out whether he was alive or dead? Really? We'll have to agree to disagree there. It seems to me if the fans can be upset about Sam getting that storyline, Dean can, too.
And I disagree. Dean HAS evolved. He clearly encouraged Sam to go off and have that normal life with Amelia, did you forget that? And he didn't resent Sam having a normal life, he resented him not giving a damn about him and leaving him for dead!
Dean just can't catch a break with some of you can he?
And that is horrible for you to say, that Dean should die for Sam to have a normal life. And it would be horrible for someone to say Sam should die for Dean to have a horrible life also.
So, Dean gets no credit from at all for accepting and encouraging Sam to go for his normal life.
It's clear that you don't like Dean. This is fine, however, don't accuse me of not liking Sam simply because I won't condone every wrong thing he does to Dean, as I wouldn't condone Dean's text either.
And I really don't have a problem with Sam hiding his illness from Dean, because I see it as not wanting to worry him.
I feel that Dean was wrong to kill Amy and then lie to Sam about it. I also, while understanding that the spectre amped up rage to an abnormal level, did not understand why the writers had Dean bring up Souless Sam. We had all seen that Dean had realized that that was NOT Sam and he didn't hold that against him, so that didn't make sense. And yes, I didn't like that Ddean said Benny had been more of a brother to him than Sam had been. Again, cleary the spectre amped these things up, but for all the times I felt Sam betrayed and hurt Dean, he still, until this season, also showed that he clearly loved him and in the end had his back.
So no, I DON'T hate Sam and I DON'T condone everything Dean says or does.
I understand why Sam drank Demon blood but I don't condone it...the same way I understand why Dean sent the text but I don't condone it.I don't hate Dean ...I simply connect more to Sam.
Dean catches break with me .but if in a comment Dean's decision are because of Sam's actions and Sam gets blamed for it then the other way around is true.Also frankly speaking I don't think you hate Sam I simply think/thought you don't care about him.
So, do you think that Dean would have a happy life if Sam were dead?
Sam DIDN'T know Dean was dead. He just stopped caring about him. If it were shown that he did truly believe Dean was dead, I'd feel differently.
I don't condone every wrong thing Dean does to Sam. However, Sam has done much more to Dean than vice versa. Why does Dean always have to be the one apologizing?
What I want is for Dean to stop making Sam the center of his universe and start thinking about his own happiness for once. And a good important story of his own that doesn't get dropped in a couple of episodes and is given equal attention.
But for now, I just want to drop it. There's no point to this discussion. I won't change my view and neither will you. And no, I DON'T hate Sam. But your unwillinglyness to see anything wrong thing Sam does or anything good Deandoes tells me where you stand So I respectfully bow out. Take care
I truly am confused why Dean cannot have his own story unless Sam has a POV. This is a writer's decision, so it's not something that you can negotiate. Furthermore Sam has had POV. His human story was all POV, his flashbacks took up much more time than the purgatory ones, and since Torn and Frayed he has emoting non-stop. I think the issue may be that you don't like his point of view since it does not fit with the heroic model of this show's worldview epitomized by Dean. Therefore, since Sam's POV doesn't fit your idealized view of him you think he doesn't have one.
Believe me he does. It was made clear through words and actions that he did not feel responsible for Dean, kevin, castiel, Meg, or any innocent person whose life was ruined by the supernatural for that year. It was shown that during that year he didn't care enough to turn on the phone. We saw he was happy with Amelia and he said he would be lucky to spend his life with her. In citizen Kane we saw he cared more for her than his brother or the hunt. We saw he was insanely jealous of Benny and this was confirmed by the veritable lover's spat with Dean in Torn and Frayed over Benny, where Sam demanded that Dean leave Benny or else (Sam would leave Dean? And kill BENNY?).
I could go on. Clearly this is all POV.
I think Sam doesn't have a POV because Sam is rarely if ever allowed to speak for himself, nor are we shown how life affects him. We know how AMELIA felt when Don died. That she felt pitied and didn't want that, that she was drinking heavily as demonstrated by her having clogged the disposal with limes from her drinking. That her marriage with Don was having difficulties as demonstrated by the fact that he didn't tell her he enlisted in the army. We learned a lot about Amelia, but almost nothing about Sam other than he was willing to listen to her and that he felt he had to give Don a chance to get his marriage back.
We don't know how Sam felt watching Dean disappear or how he decided that Dean was dead. We know he has negative feelings toward Benny, which I think are justified, but which many are attributing to jealousy or resentment but we do not have SAM saying what he feels.
What we see about Sam is how Dean interprets Sam's actions. We do not get to see what Sam is actually thinking, only how it affects Dean.
And since WHEN has Sam EVER bent to Dean's will? Sam has ALWAYS done whatever the hell he wants, whether Dean likes it or not! DEAN has been the one to chase after Sam and even beg him to come back, at times after Sam has nearly killed him. Dean has been the one to never chase adfter his own dreams or happiness, always putting Sam or John's happiness first. What I want to know is, when will Dean finally decide he wants something of his own outside of just looking after Sam, something to make HIM happy?
That'll never happen, because SPN has consistently shown us that Dean's life doesn't matter outside of being there for Sam, that he has no worth of his own. Only Sam is smart, special, and deserving of true love and happiness.
An I do NOT hate Sam, I just feel that Dean has constantly been trashed by these writers while the main importance has been placed on Sam. A little equality would be nice.
This whole "perfect ending" thing is starting to bug me. So, Dean is deciding Sam's whole future now? Did he ASK Sam what Sam wanted? No, he decided what Sam should end up with and is going all guns in that direction without even consulting the person it most directly involves. It's the Lisa/Ben mind-wipe all over again. Sam may indeed actually want a normal life away from hunting, but how he goes about that is Sam's problem and not Deans. Furthermore, Dean has decided absolutely nothing for himself at all. He has no perfect ending that includes himself because he doesn't think he deserves one. For me this type martyrdom is getting pretty tiresome. I want Dean to let Sam do his own thinking and make his own decisions about his life and I further want Dean to make some decisions about his OWN life that include him actually living into retirement.
Dean wants Sam to have that normal life Sam keeps saying he wants. That's all. I don't think Dean is trying to plan Sam's life or anything. And does Dean think he doesn't deserve a normal life or does he just not see that type of life in the works for him? We don't know.
And Sam stated that he loved Amelia. How does this make Dean deciding who Sam should end up with?
Dean loves Sam, he just wants him to be happy, and these are the things that Sam has stated would make him happy. How is that deciding Sam's future for him? Why would you turn a loving gesture into something selfish and wrong?
what i felt significant was that sam never told amelia who he really was. i believe it's because, like he said, he was running...runni ng from who he was and all he's lost. amelia was sam's refuge. as we've heard from sam himself in hunteri heroici, you can't run from reality. sam left amelia before dean's return. i believe his reality was haunting him and the return of don...well that just clinched it.
i don't argue that sam had feelings for amelia. he was drawn to her. in my very strong opinion, he was not drawn to her out of love...he was drawn to her because he apparently recognized the signs of someone who was lost. like i've stated on other posts, for sam and amelia, it was a misery loves company relationship.
i know sam told amelia in a matter of fact kind of way that he loved her...but i didn't believe him. the way he said it and every single fb told me otherwise. i do believe he loved how he was able to be while with her though.there is a very important distinction between loving someone and loving how he was able to be when being that person. sam was larping. he was playing the role of a normal person doing normal things. but he was never truly happy or satisified. he never smiled. he always looked far off and sad. no matter how hard he tried, he couldn't forget who he was, what he lost and how he will never fit into a normal world...it's not who he is. that's why it was never going to work with amelia. this relationship was doomed before it started. it wasn't real. i think there will be a point when sam will admit that out loud to himself and to dean.
henry gave sam a very special gift before he died. henry gave sam his place in the hunting world. sam is a hunter and a damn good one, but doesn't love it the way dean does. it seemed to me that he felt out of place which is one of the reasons he sought normal. but living normal, he didn't fit either. not in college as he admitted to dean and not with amelia, as he has sort of admitted again in hunteri heroici.
but sam knowing now that his true legacy was to be a mol. i've never seen sam more content in the hunting world as he is right now. he's finally found his place in it. being a man of letters gives sam the opportunity to live in the hunter's world where he's always belonged, but to do so in an academic capacity which is basically what sam is...he's an academic. he loves research. he thrives on it.
thanks to henry sam has found his normal. now i'm not saying amelia is the one for sam. like i said, it was never about love. but the light sam sees....being a mol does enable sam to find a wife and maybe have kids someday. he sees a way to not only survive,, but thrive. i think he wants that for dean as well. he wants dean to know there is another option other than dying. sam saw henry and larry both having a loving family. sam saw that you can be a part of the hunting world and still not be alone....i think that was the light at the tunnel he was referring to when he was talking to dean..
i think that's one of the reasons why sam wants to do the trials...he wants dean to have that light in his life too.
regarding the trials,
i'm not so sure dean does trust that sam can do the trials. i feel dean's concerns come from a few places. i think first off he might be concerned that sam hasn't been in the hunt for awhile and he may be rusty. dean may feel his time in purgatory made him stronger and thus possibly in better condition to handle the trials, not unlike how sam felt that he could kill lilith due to his abilities from the demon blood.
in all honesty, i'm not sure dean totally dismissed what sam said about imploding and running. i know his resentment took over, but still, i think dean did believe sam. i also don't think dean forgot how close sam came to dying because of lucifer. not to mention sam's breakdown at the beginning of s7. sam overcame, but nearly didn't. that's not something dean will forget.
plus i think dean has control issues and he just needs to be the one to get things done. he's always been that way. he's always made everything his responsibility.
all this plus the fact that dean wants sam to live normal plays a part in his trust issues that sam can do the job.
i for one think sam can do the job despite all that's happened to him..i believe he is that strong because he over came such adversity. i also feel he needs to do the trials because of his need to succeed, not just for himself but for dean as well.
Dean loves sam but he tries to believe and understand sam,mostly he fails.Quote:Quote:Don't these two contradict each other.
In the same vein as Sam said to Dean- do bad things only happen to Dean?
I further agree that Dean and Sam are on a two-way street when it comes to understanding each other. No one knows them better than their brother, but they also bring a lot of baggage and perception issues to the table. When Dean says, "I don't want you to do this", Sam hears, "I don't trust you to do this." When Sam says, "I don't want you to do this", Dean hears, "You're not good enough to do this." They do love each other, but they're not good at listening and they are so scared of letting each other down they tend to set themselves up for self-fulfilling prophecies.
Lastly, in the episode prior, Dean made it clear that he wanted to do the trials, not Sam, because he wanted to protect Sam and give him a future. There's no reason for us to believe those motivations have changed. I very much fear that show is going to repeat itself and go with the S5 ending in terms of character journey, where Sam needs to do the trials to 'prove something' and Dean needs to learn to love his brother right. Since I never approve of show xeroxing itself, I hope it doesn't come to that.
I loved 'Hammer of the Gods' (Trickster?) and 'Chris Angel is a Douchebag' was my least favourite episode ever until 'Bitten' came along. I think I disliked them most because I tune in for the brothers, and the brothers were extra scarce in those episodes, especially 'Bitten'. Only things I cared for in Douchebag were "the Chief" and the brothers talk in their room about "cutting the head off the snake". Other than that the magicians got more boring every time I watched. (I have to watch my episodes in order, whether I love them or not, as I feel I'm cheating on the brothers if I skip one. Never claimed to be entirely sane!)
I liked the beginning with Sam and the dog. Didn't like the dumbing down of Dean, right after being the best hunter and a genius from the last episode. There is no way Dean would not know what a 'familiar' is! Dean made it through the episode with Veritas the truth teller and a housefull of cats without a single sneeze. Now he is allergic? Phfffft!!
Couldn't care less about Portia and James, but the dog was a beauty. Would have been more creepy and truer to lore if they had kept the dog and had it speak to James like the cat spoke in "Hunter Heroici". That was a hoot!
Waste of space to show Portia and James getting it on as I couldn't care less unless one of them getting it on is a Winchester!
Also, can't believe the spell was from Bobby's book as they would have used it in a couple of previous witch encounters. It should have come from the MoL library.
But then, perhaps they had to put on a show and didn't have one ready to stand up to the previous ones and the show must go on even is sub par. I can forgive them as they have been giving me what I've been longing for for five years. The brothers are talking to each other and showing their affection for each other and I can again believe that Sam values his brother again. Thanks for that bit.
But please, make these two writers watch the show once in a while and maybe they can get it almost right the next time. (not this season again, though, please!)
Last, I just want to ask again, but no one seems to be interested in this dangling info: who was watching Sam leave Amelia's that night he met Dean at the cabin? Why did he go there and why wasn't he surprised to see Dean? It's a big deal to me and I can't believe they will just leave it unanswered. My first guess is Crowley, although I'd like it to be John. I have to admit, I thought of John when I saw the turned up coat collar. I guess maybe it could have been Benny, too. Would love to know what people think of this and why it hasn't been revealed since then.
I had a couple of theories to throw out there
1. I don't think it was Crowley - he has never been one to underestimate the Winchesters (6.20 - "Am I the only one who doesn't under-estimate those denim-wrapped nightmares?" ) and IMO was quite happy having Sam "retired" from hunting.
2. It was way too convenient that Amelia's husband Don was suddenly discovered alive after being declared dead, especially it happening about the same time that Dean got out of purgatory. Maybe some angelic intervention?
3. Dean getting out of purgatory with Benny's help - if I remember correctly, doesn't the first vampire (the Alpha) have some sort of telekinetic link with all vampires? Just wondering if that was some assist by the Alpha in Benny knowing the way out of purgatory.
4. So, this kind of implies that the Alpha vampire and an angel (Naomi ?) were working together. Now why would they do that? Well, they have a common enemy in Crowley. Crowley is the King of Hell after all, and was going after all of the Alphas in S6 to find out how to crack open purgatory.
5. Also thought back to an episode in S8 when Naomi was asking Cas about the Winchesters and Naomi told him to help them when they called for him.
So, my theory, for what it's worth, is that the angels knew about the demon tablet being found (they are responsible for watching after the prophet) and needed the Winchesters to pursue closing the Gates of Hell forever.
So, as far as the mystery person goes, my guess is Naomi.
I dont think the alpha vamp is involved in any capacity.
Also the angles would be concerned about the angel tablet being discovered as it jeopardises their own exsistance on earth. Crowley would surely want to shut the gates of heaven and tip the balance of power in favour of heaven. Naomi is simply protecting the interests of heaven while making sure the Winchesters do their part in closing the gates of hell.
Great review, Alice. Although, I disagree about about the merits of "Chris Angel is a Douchebag" - that episode lagged terribly and I had a difficult time caring or understanding the point of the guest characters. This episode is on par with that one, IMO, as well as S7's "Out with the Old" - slow and frustrating.
Unfortunately I didn't expect anything more from these two authors, not everything they've written in the past is crap, but a lot of it is. Isn't it about time that Jeremy Carver wrote another episode? Correct me if I'm wrong, but he's only written one so far, no? I've been watching "Being Human" and the episodes he wrote with his wife were sooo good, so I'm anxious to get his expertise again. I know Eugenie Ross-Leming is Robert Singer's wife, but maybe they should let her go. Okay, that came out a little harsh, maybe it's Brad Buckner's fault. By the way Adam Glass wrote "All Dogs Go to Heaven" (sorry I'm posting this to someone further up, don't remember who you are) and that was pretty God awful drivel. Is he still writing on the show?
Come back Sera!
(Although I don't miss her as showrunner, I'm not yet very keen on Carver, either)
Those were the days.
I also found this episode boring and I agree with many, many of the points that have already been raised. I am just grateful that that you had the courage (and trust) to be able to express your true reactions, good and bad. I know you took a lot of flack for the passion of your first comments (phew, you were upset!), but I suspect it is only because you recognize the full potential of the show. When I watched the show, I was afraid I was the only one that was really and truly disappointed. It was such a relief to read your comments and know that I wasn't being too harsh and that other people saw the same failings I saw. I believe it will help us appreciate the great episodes even more!
I have to agree this was not one of their better ones. I didn’t hate it but I certainly didn’t love it either. I would give it a two brick rating.
I can’t really explain what it was that didn’t work for me, I just found it slow and I couldn’t get into the characters or the story.
Maybe if we had of met James before it might have worked better, not that it bothered me that we hadn’t met him before. I guess I really don't know what it was about this episode.
I did like the whole hotel scene where Portia first meets Sam and Dean. And I did like the astral projection, it was different and interesting.
I also wasn’t put off by James and Portia being intimate as I took that she was always in human form when they were together.
The calling of James ‘Master’ took me off guard, but I figured maybe because the Witch world has been around for centuries that they still hold to old traditions, rules and laws.
As for Dean questioning Sam on whether he was fit to do the trials I have to admit I wasn’t surprised. After last week’s episode I was thinking Dean would have second thoughts on Sam doing the trials.
When he agreed to let Sam, it was after Sam’s very emotional speech. It was a “in the moment†kind of decision.
Once the moment had passed I figured Dean would start having regrets. That he would go back to his original feelings on the whole matter.
Not because he doesn’t trust Sam (as the writers have chosen to go with) but because the burden of such a big mission in his mind should lie on his shoulders.
I love this show and on the whole I’ve been enjoying this season. I realize that not every episode is going to be a winner and that sometimes what is on paper does not always work in live action. However with that being said I have to admit I’m becoming concerned with the uneven way Sam and Dean’s characters have been written at times.
I’m one of those people that feel that when someone has a job, whether they are new to it or not, they should always do it to the best of their abilities. They should learn everything that is required to do the job efficiently. In the case of a television show the writers along with the showrunner should be expected to do the necessary research to keep up the quality and continuity of the storyline and the main characters involved. I know they can’t be on top of everything 100% of the time and that sometimes things will fall through the cracks. But when these inconsistencies start becoming more frequent, one starts to get a little worried. I have not yet lost faith in the show nor do I expect to ever stop watching before it does finally end, as like some others have mentioned, I feel that even their weakest of episodes is still better than other shows out there.
The conversation about Dean and trust, I can see where it could be contrived, but for me it worked. Partly because I just like the "brother" scenes. Yep they've had that talk many time, we all know Dean only trusts himself, but maybe Sam was thinking the 'end would change' after last week and Dean would trust him. I noticed either an excellent Jared acting moment, or a happy coincidence: When they had the talk, it escalated a bit, and then "Are we Done!?" The camera pans to Sam, who wipes his hands on his jeans/thighs, as if to dry his sweaty palms, which was caused by the emotional escalation of the conversation, one Sam had been thinking about and knew would be discussed and would not be fun (hence the sweaty palms in an uncomfortable conversation).
I liked the discussion about Benny and Kate were not given the choice to be what they are, and James did chose this, therefore it would be OK to off him if he was killing.
I liked the Wiccan bar. Talking about "the community," Spencer's familiar giving off a gay vibe, I thought this season has been giving some nice GLBT shout outs.
I liked the shout-out to Bobby.
I did like the uncomfortable Dean scenes.
I REALLY liked Portia. About half way into the ep I realized how good the actress was. James was good too (hello brother of Neve Campbell!)
I don't like witches like Dean, but I was caught up in the story--until the rushed and lame outcome. I liked the dirty jealous cop, and also how he was working with Spencer and his familiar. BUT--Spencer was jealous of Portia? LAME! If the community was outraged over the broken rules with the sexy time, couldn't that justify Spencer wanting to destroy or run them out of town? OR, make it interesting and have Spencer (or his familiar) be jealous of Portia (Spencer and his pet were gay, right?).
The sex scene--TOO LONG. I get Portia may have found a way to get into James's mind, but it was too long.
Note to casting: Don't make the bad guy SO bad-guy looking. The second we saw Spencer I knew "yep, he's behind everything, whatever 'it' is."
I REALLY loved Spencer getting into the boys head. Any time we reference all the way back to the pilot and other series game changers is cool.
The last scene--more lying. OK, so I am hoping Sam is saying "I'm fine" the way a sick friend or family member wants to ease loved ones. Sam knows he is not 100%, and with the blood, if he starts to get worse, let's HOPE Sam will say "Dean, I'm not so OK anymore." Truth? Please?
A few tweaks here and there, and this ep could have been a good filler. Maybe Jeremy Carver was out sick this week?
The gay vibe (for me) had to do with Spencer and Phillipe, not the witch community as a whole. The wiccan community is always shown as outsiders (Buffy, True Blood), I don't think its portrayal cliché, SPN followed suit. Having a wiccan bar I thought was clever and funny.