Warning
: If you have not seen tonight’s episode, “Do You Believe in Miracles?,” then beware spoilers ahead!

Episode Summary: 

Okay, fine, Carver, you win. Whatever. Great episode. Emotions. I felt things. I may have teared up. You remembered that you wrote Mystery Spot Sam. I'm proud of you and of us for sticking with you. *neverforgetnonconpossession*

The season finale follows the immediate aftermath of Dean’s stabbing of Gadreel. Cas and Sam take Dean to a panic room and go off to help Gadreel who has vanished. They go off to find him and Dean is left in the room, where he invokes Crowley, who confirms Dean’s fears – that he’s becoming something he doesn’t want to be, a killer. The episode then turns to three different storylines. First there is the storyline of Cas/Gadreel teaming up to get into heaven to retrieve and destroy the tablet, which was the seat of Metatron’s power and made him invincible. Second there is the Dean/Crowley/Sam storyline, which focuses on Sam/Dean teaming up to defeat Metatron, after Sam promises to let Dean do what he has to do, “no matter the consequences.” Finally there is the Metatron wanting to be God on earth storyline which is an echo of Castiel’s season 6/7 arc, “Godstiel.”

The episode climaxes when Dean knocks out Sam and goes after Metatron on his own. Simultaneously, Gadreel sacrifices himself to break the prison and let Castiel go, who with Hannah, retrieves and destroys the tablet. The tablet is destroyed at the same moment or about when Metatron has run a blade through Dean, with Sam looking on. The second of three emotional brother scenes focuses on Dean and Sam as Dean dies, his last words being “I’m proud of us.” The final act revolves around Castiel (who thinks Dean is dead) capturing Metatron, imprisoning him, and then committing to getting his grace back or wanting to be an angel again. Meanwhile, Sam is drinking and setting up an echo of AHBL where he plans to call forth Crowley. Crowley visits the dead Dean and monologues about a few more meta observations about how the brothers will always end up doing the same things for each other. At this point he tells  a story of Cain’s suicide and we know at this point that Dean is not dead, that he can hear and feel because Crowley tells us this. The final seconds are Dean opening his eyes and they are black.  

Personal note: I really liked it and am excited for where they are going next season. I suspect it's gonna be a whopper of an emotional arc. But I still reserve the right to hate Carver. I won't give that up. 

Questions:

1.       What do you think will happen now with Demon Dean and HumanSam? What of the brotherhood? (and btw, who didn’t see that coming?)

2.       Now that Castiel wants to be an angel but not a leader, what do we think will happen to heaven?

3.       What will Sam’s reaction be to the new TeamCagedHell, Crowley and Dean? I'm shipping it. HARD. I'm gonna call it "Moonhowlers". Join me at port. We set sail tomorrow.

4.       Will Cain have to come back? Are there now two Cains in the world?

5.       Who will be next season’s big bad?

6.       How did you feel about the emotional Sam/Dean moments?

7.       Who likes Hannah and wants her not to die? (raises hand)

8.       WHO DIDN’T CRY? IF YOU DIDN’T CRY YOU ARE SOULLESS. Just saying.

Share your thoughts, feeings, etc. below about tonight’s season finale.

Comments  

NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2014-05-20 23:33
Ok so now SPN is stealing from TEEN WOLF. [I am proud of us, and the riddles]
speaking of come on June 23rd.
Hope that and DOMINION will be my new loves.
did not see this ending and I thought CAIN was dead..... dead dead. not HELL dead.
I LOVE THIS SHOW, I AM A DIE HARD FAN....
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-05-20 23:46
Book dal: you're right. Who didn't know or at least suspect that was gonna happen? That was one of everyone's first speculations after Dean got the MoC. But we kept talking ourselves out of that scenario, thinking the writers ain't gonna go there. Well they went THERE!

I did not cry! Shut up! I didn't. I maybe teared up a tiny bit but that's it! I swear!

On the other hand I'm totally geeking out for next season already . Can't wait to see Dean smite something. See Cas for the first time. His first convo with Sam. Him and Crowley teaming up. The possible return of Cain.

Oh and guys, remember Cain. Love saved Cain. He was still a demon but he quit that to live a human life bc Hey! Love! Maybe love can save Dean ( and if those Destiel shippers get what they're hoping for ,they'll be completely insufferable, yeah?) :)but my money is on Sam saving him.
Vince
# Vince 2014-05-21 08:23
For me, if they were going to go black eyes. This was not how I expected it to happen. But then Metatron slides that angel sword into Dean like he was butter.
Daisymae
# Daisymae 2014-05-20 23:54
I want to see Hannah next year shipping with Cass. The big bad could be Dean. This is a situation that never would have happened if the show hadn't lasted this long, but I'm loving it (sort of). This show always manages to do it for the finales. A+ Carver and company.
Alice
# Alice 2014-05-20 23:56
Nine seasons in and I can still be a blubbery mess over a death scene. Dean dying in Sam's arms? Yep, I'm a wreck.
SuperVikingGirl
# SuperVikingGirl 2014-05-21 00:13
Ok, Blackeyed Dean?? - yeah, called it a week and a half ago, old news. I mean we knew that he was turning into Cain and he turned into a Demon and created the Knights of Hell (all canon). So, Season 10? I'm thinking...Dean still wants to fight evil but as a demon as he is still jonesing for the power. Sam wants to cure the demon in him (so Season 8) and Cas becomes the new God. Again, but reluctantly this time. Crowley I think wants Dean to create his new Knights of Hell and rule Hell with him - not in a kinky way, but I think that Crowley might want a chance at brotherhood too, just like Cas.
Alice
# Alice 2014-05-21 00:21
Here's Crowley's entire speech at the end. It's so brilliant. Mark Sheppard killed it!

“Your brother, bless his soul, is summoning me as I speak, make a deal, bring you back. It’s exactly what I was talking about, isn’t it? It’s all become so...expected. You have to believe me, when I suggested you take on the Mark of Cain I didn’t know this was going to happen. Not really. I mean I might not have told you the entire truth but I never lied. I never lied Dean, it’s important. It’s fundamental. But there is one story about Cain that I might have forgotten to tell you. Apparently he too was willing to accept death rather than becoming the killer the Mark wanted him to be. So he took his own life with the blade. He died. Except, as rumor has it, the Mark never quite let go. You can understand why I never spoke of this. Why set hearts a flutter at mere speculation? It wasn’t until you summoned me, no, it wasn’t truly until you left that cheeseburger uneaten, that I began to let myself believe maybe miracles do come true. Listen to me Dean Winchester, what you’re feeling right now it’s not death, it’s life. A new kind of life. Open your eyes Dean, see what I see, feel what I feel. Let’s take a howl at that moon.”
PSG
# PSG 2014-07-02 10:51
He did nail it. I was profoundly moved by Crowley at that moment and earlier really. He was our Pov character for Dean losing his humanity and the remnants of his old life. His conflict and ambivalence was poignant. I am very glad that he's now a regular and I hope he has some howl worthy moments with his new bfF.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2014-05-21 00:24
so Crowley did know Dean would become a demon but not that METATRON would kill him...
Crowley only wanted ABADDON dead. could not have forseen the rest. hummmmmm
pinetree3
# pinetree3 2014-05-21 15:02
No, he wasn't sure Dean would turn. Not until the end. He thought the Cain story was just that, a story,,,a rumor.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2014-05-21 00:28
'CANT FIND MY WAY HOME' doobie brothers or three dog night or Clarence Clearwater...
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2014-05-21 00:41
FOUND IT, BLIND FAITH lyrics by STEVE WINWOOD;)
JudyLee
# JudyLee 2014-05-21 00:43
That sounds like the 1969 Blind Faith original to my ears.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2014-05-21 00:45
And you are right MISS JUDY LEE :P
quickreaver
# quickreaver 2014-05-21 01:15
1. What do you think will happen now with Demon Dean and HumanSam? What of the brotherhood? (and btw, who didn’t see that coming?) Yeah, of course we saw it coming, but I crave demon!Dean. I want him to raze the land, as Crowley's hound. And I want Sam to go all Mystery Spot OCD and get single-minded in his drive to cure him...until he can't anymore, and then Dean feeds Sam his own blood. Together, the Boyking kicks Crowley's delightful ass and he and Dean rule the world together forever. The End.

2. Now that Castiel wants to be an angel but not a leader, what do we think will happen to heaven? Hannah takes over. And Cas becomes human and stays human. But I will NOT be happy if Cas is the one to de-demonize Dean. That's Sam's department. Sorry, Destielers.

3. What will Sam’s reaction be to the new TeamCagedHell, Crowley and Dean? I'm shipping it. HARD. I'm gonna call it "Moonhowlers". Join me at port. We set sail tomorrow. See #1.

4. Will Cain have to come back? Are there now two Cains in the world? I'd dig seeing Cain again, but I don't think we will. I'm not sure Dean is Cain, or just a plain ol' hellknight.

5. Who will be next season’s big bad? Looks like Crowley and Dean, for a bit. After that, no idea. Maybe Jesse the Anti-Christ. Why not, eh?

6. How did you feel about the emotional Sam/Dean moments? They were very nice. For ONCE, Sam finished a thought. I liked that Dean seemed to get it. He still knocked Sam out to go it alone, but are we surprised? Pfft, does a demon have black eyes?

7. Who likes Hannah and wants her not to die? (raises hand) See #2.

8. WHO DIDN’T CRY? IF YOU DIDN’T CRY YOU ARE SOULLESS. Just saying.
Didn't cry; I'm a soulless bastard. But I do like the possibilities it opens for S10! Maybe if we're really really lucky, we'll get Kripke or Edlund to grace us with an episode. (I know, I know, they said they wouldn't, but I will always hope.)
kaj
# kaj 2014-05-21 18:37
Quote:
quickreaver
1. What do you think will happen now with Demon Dean and HumanSam? What of the brotherhood? (and btw, who didn’t see that coming?) Yeah, of course we saw it coming, but I crave demon!Dean. I want him to raze the land, as Crowley's hound. And I want Sam to go all Mystery Spot OCD and get single-minded in his drive to cure him...until he can't anymore, and then Dean feeds Sam his own blood. Together, the Boyking kicks Crowley's delightful ass and he and Dean rule the world together forever. The End.
I love it!!! Will you write that, please. :-D Oh, I think someone has wrote that already but I think there will be never enough dark Dean and Sam fanfiction in fandom.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-21 01:24
Wow did JC ever pull this together. I can't even form a thought right now. I will have to watch this again (and maybe again). And Crowley can never die, what would we ever do without Mark Shepard.
Puck
# Puck 2014-05-22 13:52
Crowley may yet outlive them all.
PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2014-05-21 01:31
Well, I thought about them making him a demon; but rejected it. thought they would never really do that to one of the brothers. So many thoughts running through my head. So if Lucifer was Cain's master; then I guess that makes Crowley Dean's-right? Or, maybe no one is; who knows. So, I wonder how long they will leave him a demon? Wow, Dean already feels so guilty all of the time. Imagine if he kills innocents after becoming this. Also, Sam CANNOT "cure" him. Because that would be completing the third trial. Also, the "mark". So it would be completely different for Dean, for that reason. So, I guess Sam has to go find Cain, Maybe? When they said "game changer", they were NOT kidding!!! Oh, Hannah should take over Heaven. About time they had a woman running things. Get something done right!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-21 01:47
As long as Sam doesn't say the enochian spell he shouldn't die. The priest was able to cure a demon without dying. Maybe Dean needs to kill Cain in order to break the curse?
PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2014-05-21 01:56
But Dean is the only one who can kill Cain. He is the 1st Knight of Hell. I'm guessing Cain can remove the mark. After all, he gave it, right? I'm no writer, No clue!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-21 02:15
Cain said he would summon Dean to come and kill him. Either that will mean that Dean will be released or that Dean will become Cain and be immortal.

So seriously 5 freaking months!! Seriously?
PSG
# PSG 2014-07-02 11:08
I think Dean is exactly like Cain now except for the fact that he hasn't made any deals. Dean can kill Crowley and Crowley was helmet on making sure that Dean knew he didn't lie. I don't think Crowley owns Dean.

I doubt Sam can cure Dean since he was magically transformed into something supernatural. He is not a twisted soul occupying a stolen body. He and Cain are something completely new and perhaps they are demonic but not demons in any sense. For instance the smiting power is angelic and their capacity to love is human.

I am hoping that Dean stays altered since this is a pretty big thing to erase, it took two years to get Dean here and the catchwords for the season was consequences.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-07-07 15:45
I'm actually hoping for an Angelus type Dean. That would be cool.
Katie140
# Katie140 2014-05-22 05:12
Remember though, that the priest in the video did not complete the other two trials (to our knowledge), and so he could cure a demon safely. Sam HAS done the trials, so if he were to cure Dean he would die, but I'm assuming another human, or angel i dont know, COULD.
The boys dont know anyone alive though, so theres that little obstacle.
kaj
# kaj 2014-05-21 19:04
I think Sam can still cure Dean with the ritual without dying because I think he has botched up that trial when he stopped curing Crowley. The power garnered from the trial then attack Sam from the inside. Sam should die along with the dying trial power within him. But since Dean threw Gad inside Sam, Sam stays alive.
As long as Sam doesn't read the spell and doesn't do the trial from the beginning (to garner the power to board up Hell) I think he'll be alright.
Rick D
# Rick D 2014-05-21 01:31
Well, I must be soulless, because I didn't cry. As if for a single second Dean could really be dead. As I predicted, Sam got to do nothing but be punched out AGAIN, and finally show up too LATE to save Dean AGAIN. Meanwhile they are practically singing songs about how Castiel Did It All For Dean. I guess Cas will have to take on lots more Grace so he has Angel Power, and he can spare and tussle and maybe wrestle in the mud with Dean with his Demon Power! Maybe Sam will have a nice seat on the sidelines.
Well, you won't hear me complain anymore. I said I'd watch til the end of this season, just to see it done, and now I'm done. Off to watch GoT!
PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2014-05-21 01:40
AND OF COURSE I CRIED. WHEN DEAN GOT STABBED; I THOUGHT MY HEART WAS GOING TO EXPLODE. ACTUAL PAINS IN THE CHEST. WHEN HE WAS AGAINST THE WALL, SOBBED LIKE A BABY. TOOK THE ENTIRE COMMERCIAL BREAK TO CATCH MY BREATH. THEN CRIED SOME MORE WHEN HE WAS IN SAM'S ARMS. ( DAMN MENOPAUSE!)
BookLady
# BookLady 2014-05-21 01:54
I really should be in bed, but thinking too much.

Happy birthday, Bookdal! And, to me, too!

I've been following the tweets from several of the writers on this site. I don't have Twitter so I can only reply in this way. All my respect to all of you who elevate my thinking about this show!

About Crowley and Metatron - I see that they both long for something that the Winchester brothers have and/or are -

When Crowley was speaking of the miracle in his speech, I think he was talking about something he's yearned for, since the end of last season when Sam re-awakened his humanity - he's wanted a deep, loving, brotherly connection with a Winchester. It didn't work out as he wanted with Sam, but he saw an opportunity with Dean and took advantage of it. He's brought Dean over to his side and now they can howl at the moon together. He got his miracle. Sam wasn't able to save Dean from becoming a demon. Of course, he also knows that Sam will try to undo that miracle so Season 10 will interesting in seeing how far Crowley will go to prevent that from happening. And, how cooperative Dean will be in being a brother to Crowley. There should be a scene where Sam and Crowley commiserate on what a pain in the ass Dean is :)

As for Metatron, he's longed to be a hero in stories, like all those he read, including the Supernatural book series by Carver Edlund. He quickly realized that Sam and Dean are heroes and he longed to be like them, but in his own image. It wasn't enough to be the all-powerful God, the master puppeteer; he wanted to be recognized, respected, admired, worshiped - his kind of hero, but a hero nonetheless. Too bad he didn't have the depth to realize that heroes are often not recognized, that their work is often not valued by the people of their day and that it means sacrifice - often over and over again. It means pain and heartache, making mistakes and trying to make amends, forgiving, swallowing your pride, taking responsibility, loving - the difficult, messy stuff that angels don't seem to understand about humanity.

Interesting - Crowley wants love and Metatron had no idea what that is.

Good-night, everybody!
Taraneh
# Taraneh 2014-05-21 05:51
wow,I really liked your ideas about Dean , Sam and Crowley :)
I just watched the episode and there are millions of thoughts spinning in my head!and it is so nice to read SPNFamily's comments on episode.OMG,cou ld Dean ever imagine that he's going to become the one thing that he hated his entire life?!I wonder what his reaction would be?!and Cas' reaction???or Sam's?maybe at least they would be happy that dear Dean(if he is still Dean)is alive!
oh I must say bromance scenes were epic and J2 were AMAZING and as I cry rarely while watching a movie,my very little tear drops made me believe in miracles:)but watching Dean getting stabbed almost hit me like a heart attack and 'I'm proud of us' dialogue was so damn heart breaking!!!
I guess the exiting adventures of next season for Dean worth the long 5 month wait!
good luck every one!
mary9930
# mary9930 2014-05-21 07:33
BookLady, that was beautifully said. Metatron doesn't truly understand love or heroes. A true hero is often not loved by everyone or at least not until many years after they're gone. Sam & Dean are wanted criminals who try slink around under the radar as much as possible. Maybe an added lesson is that you learn more about life by living it than by just reading about it .
TeresaPezzino
# TeresaPezzino 2014-05-21 09:03
I was thinking along these same lines. We have al speculated on one point or another as to why Crowley does not kill Sam and Dean. Now we know why.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-05-21 02:31
1. What do you think will happen now with Demon Dean and HumanSam? What of the brotherhood? (and btw, who didn’t see that coming?) This was on the cards from the moment we heard about Cain. And I’m sorry, but I haven’t seen a brotherhood on this show for two years now. I imagine Demon Dean will either be cured very quickly in season 10 or he’ll be a ‘good’ demon who will work away no bother at all with Sam. If not, then Sam has worked with a ‘bad’ demon before, many times, so it’s no biggie if he works with one now again.

2. Now that Castiel wants to be an angel but not a leader, what do we think will happen to heaven? Hopefully the angels will all go to the playground and bugger off back to heaven. Castel will be a reluctant leader. Himself and Hannah are the only two angels whose names the audience actually remember; and as Hannah is female she’ll be lucky if she’s not killed off over the hiatus!

3. What will Sam’s reaction be to the new TeamCagedHell, Crowley and Dean? I'm shipping it. HARD. I'm gonna call it "Moonhowlers". Join me at port. We set sail tomorrow. Sam will probably be so grateful that Dean is alive that he won’t give a toss about the new team, or maybe even the fact that Dean is now a demon (or is demonically challenged, whatever). He’ll possibly blame himself for it (as will others) because he’s the one who summoned Crowley, and was willing to make a deal. (Two seasons of maturity, thinking about consequences etc gone down the swanny. Fabulous).

4. Will Cain have to come back? Are there now two Cains in the world? No, now you have ‘Dean Cain’. (Like you couldn’t see that one coming!)

5. Who will be next season’s big bad? Dunno. It won’t be Dean. It won’t be Crowley. If they persist in showing us only Dean’s POV then maybe Sam? Especially if Sam is going to try and cure/fix/stop Dean. and Dean likes what he now is. (It’s all about perception, people.)

6. How did you feel about the emotional Sam/Dean moments? They left me cold. It might have had more of an impact on me if we hadn’t had the two seasons that came before it. As a result, I no longer buy into their ‘moments’. I found Gadreel’s reaction to being back in the prison and what happened after with him to be far more moving. The death scene worked solely because Sam is a great crier. He doesn’t mind getting all snotty and sloppy. Forget this stoic, single manly tear crap, cry like you mean it!

I almost threw up at Dean’s ‘I’m proud of us’. I’m sorry, but what exactly is it that you’re proud of? The phenomenally abusive, twisted, dangerous relationship you two have going on? Or the utter, utter stupidity shown by both of you in the last two seasons where you have consistently done more harm than good. (And the little things. I actually groaned when I saw Sam put the Blade into the box then leave it unlocked on the main table. I mean, ffs.... Every Tom, Dick and Harry has access to the bunker now and you just leave the blade out there? That’s on a par with digging up Abbadon, sticking her head back on and then leaving her alone in the room while they both went out to answer the same damn phone call! Candidates for Mensa the Winchesters are not. The Darwin awards, maybe....) I’ll need to reign myself in re talking about the ‘relationship’. I've work in two hours and I don’t want to go in there swearing up a storm (again) at the state of their ‘relationship’.

7. Who likes Hannah and wants her not to die? (raises hand) Yearrah, why not. (Nonchalantly raises hand.)

8. WHO DIDN’T CRY? IF YOU DIDN’T CRY YOU ARE SOULLESS. Just saying. I didn’t cry.

Other thoughts.

Gadreel is unfortunately dead. Best character they’ve introduced in yonks and they off him way too soon. At least he had free will at the end. And maybe how he ended up is true freedom. Not heaven (where we’ve seen you’re forever judged for one mistake), not hell (where you’re forever punished for one mistake), not earth (where you are forever castigated for one mistake), just gone. I can certainly see the appeal of an eternal end.

Metatron bores the crap out of me, sorry. He just goes on and on and on (and on. It never ends with him!). I’m hoping that’s it for him now. Leave him in that tiny cell forever with a stubby yellow crayon and one sheet of paper. Let him write his story. (Metatron writes: “I am in a cell. It is a small cell. It is a grey cell. I am almost one with the cell. Now I am out of paper so here endeth my story. In this cell.’)

The comment about the People's Choice Award. Ooooooh. I didn't know whether to grin or grimace.

When did Sam say he was ‘okay with this’ (Dean dying)??

We got a line from Sam (that wasn’t cut off before he finished saying it and wasn’t edited out. Wonders will never cease!) Okay, it was in the last episode of the season so the events surrounding it were all but forgotten, but it was unexpected and so better than nothing (which is what I expected). I’m not sure why they left it until now. Is it because the 30 seconds he got would have taken away from the 22 episodes, 41 minutes and 30 seconds of exposition of Dean’s manpain?

And of course Dean won’t explain himself. He never has before, why would he start now?? Damn, if only he had an extra 30 seconds, he might have had the time to.......

In a strange sort of way, I’m glad the season is over. I found it as frustrating as hell. It also means there’s a slight possibility that the ball of rats tails of convoluted storylines, messed up relationships, twisted morals and even more twisted characters have a chance of being unknotted in season 10. I suppose we live in hope?
Puck
# Puck 2014-05-21 11:20
Call me souless 'cause I didn't cry either. I expected this to happen. Sure when the blade went through Dean's heart I shrieked, and teared up when Sam was holding on to him. I sniffled when Dean said his last words. Darwin Award candidates or not these guys stopped the Apocalypse and even a corporate plot to kill all Americans. (Maybe I was sustained in season 7 only on the grounds that I neither drink coffee to need creamer nor does my corn syrup allergy for me to have not been on Team Free Will myself, but I digress....) The conclusion to "Sacrifice" left me raccoon-eyed so I came prepared this time. I slopped my beer when Metadork threw Dean into the wall and then ganked him. "I'm proud of us." These guys do so much with so little it makes me embarrassed for the writers. These two have succeeded so often when they should have failed it's kinda inspiring. It was the words Sam needed to hear though: short, sweet, and to the point. It's not like Dean was gonna say "I love you little brother" or had the breath to say "You will survive without me Sammy."

Quote:
Candidates for Mensa the Winchesters are not.
HA! Once again Tim you are freaking awesome--and right! Dean is street smart, Sam is book smart, but both brothers are lacking in the common sense department.

Quote:
Every Tom, Dick and Harry has access to the bunker now
You bring up another valid point. Beyond Gad strolling in and Dean being able to summon Crowley did Metatron actually erase the warding on the bunker just like he erased the Impala's warding? Or was that just a threat to scare Team Free Will?

I'm pouting they let Abaddon and Gadreel go, but at least their deaths served the story well. It's funny I really wanted to hate the guy and in the end he did something right. Okay, Tahmoh I'm-Sorry-I-Can 't-Spell-Your-N ame-Because-I-K now-How-Annoyin g-That-Is join Sean Bean in the "We love you, but you always get killed" club; you were great on "Castle," too. Abaddon was just all-around awesome, and worthy successor to Meg.

I loved the 'People's Choice' line as much or more than Crowley's bit to not-really-dead Dean. I expected this episode to end with a black-eyed Dean, but I wasn't prepared for how they did it! You have to admit Dean's wild eyes during his confrontation with Metatron coupled with the intense yellow-orange lighting was intense! I also adored Sam reminding the angels Dean wasn't just a weapon that Dean was his brother because it was justification to us that we understood Sam's 'same thing' comment earlier even if Dean didn't.

Always hope Tim. :) If nothing else, Sam finally spat out what we've been wanting him to say for about 10 episodes. I cheered! ;)
eilf
# eilf 2014-05-21 11:38
I am with RickD to be honest. I think I am done. Tim summed it all up very well as always. I gave them two seasons to see if they were kidding about converting this into a show about a guy and his 99 problems all of which can be blamed on his baby brother. A brother who used be an amazing brain and awesome hunter but now can only finish sentences and say what he thinks once a year. The writers haven't really disguised what they have been doing, all season we have seen them saying it. In fact even both Jensen and (this week Jared) have confirmed how we should be interpreting all this. Character after character: 'Sam your brother loves you, you aren't there enough for him. You have no rights in this relationship, when are you going to realise that?'

This was lined up in the finale where, yes Jared threw his heart and soul into the death of his brother and that actually made me tear up (he has played a blinder this season as Sam with absolutely no backing or anything to go on from the writers, and he was fantastic as the angel(s)), but he had no chance of saving Dean (due to Dean preventing him from doing so by decking him) in the end it was Crowley who held the floor, Dean was dead / gone and Sam .... well it has gotten to the stage that now demons don't have to respond to him when summoned? When did that change?

The plot was fine, I still don't really know what Metatron was doing and why he was writing. I loved Gadreel and the seconds where he realised he was back where he had been for all eternity was so sad. Castiel's 180 on Gadreel being the worst creature in the universe to someone he can hang out with was a little confusing but Cas finally seemed to be doing the right things, or possibly just ending up in the right place at the right time.

Jensen as always took everything he was given and did an amazing job of showing us Dean's pain and self-sacrifice. I wonder how he will save himself next season. (I am sure we will get a running account of how he feels about every stage of it anyway.) I am sure he will be doing that, there isn't the remotest chance that Sam will be allowed to succeed in helping him. Maybe Dean and Crowley can set up home together somewhere...
Donna Noble
# Donna Noble 2014-05-21 03:33
1. What do you think will happen now with Demon Dean and HumanSam? What of the brotherhood? (and btw, who didn’t see that coming?) I saw that coming more than a Sean Bean character's inevitable demise.

2. Now that Castiel wants to be an angel but not a leader, what do we think will happen to heaven? I doN't fucking care. I want him on Earth with the boys. I don't care about these random angels. Gadreel is dead, so until Lucifer and Michael come back, or Gabe proves to be really alive, Cas is the only angel I care about.

3. What will Sam’s reaction be to the new TeamCagedHell, Crowley and Dean? I'm shipping it. HARD. I'm gonna call it "Moonhowlers". Join me at port. We set sail tomorrow. He'll probably freak the hell out, then team up with Cas. Possibly even find Cain and ask for his help / advice.

4. Will Cain have to come back? Are there now two Cains in the world? I hope he plays a big role in S10. I could watch a whole episode of him tending his bees and drinking tea. Also, I hope when he dies, he'll find Colette.

5. Who will be next season’s big bad? Dean (but his condition will be solved by midseason), Crowley? I'm still hoping for Luci.

6. How did you feel about the emotional Sam/Dean moments? I didn't have subtitles so I didn't understand half what they said, plus I was like "Dean's gonna turn into a demon" so I wasn't too touched by his Disney Death.

7. Who likes Hannah and wants her not to die? (raises hand) I don't care, she can lead Heaven offscreen.

8. WHO DIDN’T CRY? IF YOU DIDN’T CRY YOU ARE SOULLESS. Just saying. I didn't. Winchester deaths never stick. Gadreel died to suddenly and there was no wing shot (fuck you, director, he HAD wings).
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-05-21 06:19
Quote:
Sean Bean character's inevitable demise
HA!!

Quote:
Gadreel died to suddenly and there was no wing shot
Oh yeah. Damn. If ever an angel deserved his wings.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2014-05-21 16:50
hold on wait a minute....
ALL ANGELS FROM HEAVEN ARE WINGLESS
EXCEPT pussyass Metatron, correct.....
Angels already on EARTH or elsewhere are winged right....
mary9930
# mary9930 2014-05-21 07:42
5. Who will be next season’s big bad? Dean (but his condition will be solved by midseason), Crowley? I'm still hoping for Luci.

Be still my heart. What an idea!!!!
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-05-21 03:38
To cry you have to be emotionally invested as much has Dean becoming a demon seems a big moment the story getting there has been devoid of any genuine thought for Sam. Sam's mytharc seems to have become the go to place to give others a story and although Sam crying was a honest moment it is not enough to salvage how he has been treated.

Why we needed a demon Dean I have no idea to be honest but how his treatment will differ from how Sam was monsterized and treated in his mytharc will be something I shall be interested to see
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-05-21 07:21
I didn't cry either when dean died, but my heart did bleed for sam and all I wanted to do was hug him. I thought jared and Jensen did an amazing job, and it was all so touching. I loved sam throughout this eppy. I mean he laid it flat out for dean. he told him what he'd done and showed his anger about dean doing that to him and yet in the same breath, he never left dean's side, showing him despite what dean does to hurt sam, sam will always believe in him and love him and fight with him to the end. that part gave me a tear. ;)

I know that dean being a demon is exciting for some, but i'm not so sure how long people will enjoy that before they long for the days of sam and dean hunting, fighting evil together. I mean, sam was soulless for half of s6 and the complaints ran rampant. hell sam and dean stayed together hunting this season and the complaints ran rampant.

I also fear that dean isn't going to be your run of the mill demon. seems to me that dean had damned himself when taking the mark. dean uses the mark and blade together, he turns into a supernatural creature with the need to kill without rhyme or reason. just killing to feed the need. so in essence he was turning quite demon like anyway. but now you have the mark/blade/deat h and dean becomes a demon in the literal sense of the word...but what kind of demon and is it even one Crowley is prepared for? dean was a monster with the blade and he was still human, I can't imagine a demon with the power of the blade is going to be any less of a monster. will dean even be able to control his demon self? will we see him without black eyes at all? if the blade controlled dean as a human won't the blade really be the one one in control and won't dean be the blade's puppet? isn't it possible that Crowley will end up with more than he bargained for? does crowely think that dean will be his best demon bud? isn't it more likely that dean as a demon will be a worse foe to Crowley than abbadon?

given carver had planned for this all along, looks like the boys learning how to cure demons wasn't truly meant for the trials after all. the trials were different than simply curing a demon. it was specific and required sam saying certain spells after ea. of the trials was completed. all the priest had to do was confess and dose the demon with his blood. sam's been purified. he's already done the confession thing so he doesn't have to do that again right? all sam would really have to do to cure his brother would be to dose him up....or can sam even save dean that way? difference with dean from Crowley or abbadon is that he has the mark of cain. it's the mark and the blade together that has overtaken dean so is the only way for sam to save dean removing the moc?

will this go on for the entire season? sure people are excited now, but they tire quickly....soon they get bored and start missing the boys and long for what this show is truly about, the boys brotherhood. I hope carver doesn't extend this storyline for very long, because patience isn't a strong suit among some of the fandom. I hope sam finds a way to save dean during the first few eps, or at the very least, I hope sam can cure the demon inside dean the way he learned so that dean can at least become human....now that of course would be just a bandaid, the real fix would come from removing the mark and that would only happen once they find cain again. but at least sam and dean could still work together and as long as sam hides that blade where dean can't find it, dean can at least go back to being dean. then at least we can still have the boys being the boys, doing there job and yet still trying to save dean at the same time.

I think sam will need a little help on this one. I have a feeling demon dean will be a force that not even crowley will be able to handle. i hope cas gets to become an angel again as i think sam may need his help...but what would be ironic and cool, not team dean/Crowley, but team sam/Crowley. i can see and actually would prefer this scenario, in which Crowley bit more off than he can chew when leading dean to the mark. if Crowley's humanity played a hand as booklady pointed out, and all he wants is someone to love, a new pet to call his own, if he can't get moose, than how about squirrel? :P so perhaps Crowley envisioned a demon dean that would be his bestie and be his second in command as he reigned over hell. wouldn't the kicker be that dean is more than Crowley bargained for and lusts after the role of king of hell, ready to dispatch Crowley just as abbadon was? only dean has the blade, so it would make abbadon look like a pussycat. Crowley would team up with sam for sheer survival. the humanity in Crowley is truly his weakness as it brought him hope that dean would become his comrade. the irony would be that dean becomes a more formidable foe to him than abbadon.....i can see Crowley help sam in this case.

i for one hope that i'm right on this one because i fear the novelty of a demon dean will wear off rather quickly. as i said, the complaints ran rampant in s6 and they even ran rampant this season....so my fingers are crossed that sam saves dean quickly and then the rest of the season concerns them removing the mark from dean completely. :)
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-21 07:22
Well, I know I'm going to be in the minority here but, I was disappointed. Will watch again before voting in the poll but, right now, giving it a 5. Since all opinions are supposed to be welcome, here goes.

The Good

I liked how the Metatron story played out. He was written much better in this episode, as opposed to the last couple of episodes where he was becoming cartoonish. The scene with the crowd of homeless people beating on the angel that spoke out again Metatron was very disturbing. I knew Gadreel would go all suicide bomber when he and Castiel were locked up. The minute Metatron handcuffed Castiel to the chair, I yelled at the TV "hey Metatron, you do know that the P.A. system is on, don't you?" (Gotta stop doing that with the window open - I think it scares the neighbors). Yet another villain done in by a drawn out monologue scene :) I like the Hannah character and hope they keep her around next season.

Nice touch, with the portal to heaven being in a sandbox at a playground.

Crowley was great as always; finally got that massage he asked Dean and Castiel for when he was locked up in the MOL dungeon.

I'm glad Castiel got the win for a change; now that they've wrested control of heaven from Metatron, is it open for business or are all those souls still stuck in the veil?

A lot of people called Gadreel's redemption arc, so hurray for us.

We actually got a minute or two of Sam's POV this episode so yes, I do believe in miracles.

Great acting all around by Jensen, Jared, Misha, Mark, Tahmoh, and Booger.

Maybe one of my speculation guesses will play out, with Sam having to use the demon cure on Dean?

The Bad

Where the hell is the maturity in the brother's relationship that Carver kept referring to? I didn't think anything got "fixed' this season. Sam running off to make a deal with Crowley at the end? Dean knocking Sam out to face Metatron alone? The Demon Dean thing was obvious from the minute he took on the Mark of Cain; only question is whether he's going truly darkside or not in S10. It will be interesting to see how they handle this; the show is told from Dean's POV so I'm not sure how they'll work that out.

Team Free Will has been replaced by Team Dean, with Sam telling Dean they'll do it together and Dean knocking him out.

Sadly, they have completely whitewashed the question and repercussions of Sam's possession. I'm going to have a difficult time forgiving Carver for this.

As far as crying or any level of weepy-ness, not a bit. As I mentioned last week, having difficulty feeling sympathy for Dean and his behavior. And, because of this, the "broments" just didn't have the impact they should have, at least for me, so I guess that makes me soulless. Like the show summary said, actions have consequences, unless your Sam and get possessed in which case, que sera sera.


The Canon - Huh?

OK, the bunker is warded against all evil so how did Crowley pop in to the MOL bunker at the end? Yet another bit of sloppy writing. I can understand when Dean summoned him in the MOL dungeon but, whatever.

If Dean doesn't go dark side, I guess they can't live at the bunker anymore because it's warded against all evil... or not. Who the hell knows anymore.

The angel tablet was shown to have some magical properties in the past; it broke the link/control of Naomi over Castiel so I guess I can buy into the premise of Metatron tapping in to the power of the angel tablet.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2014-05-21 08:08
Well, I'm gonna go with njspnfan and Tim on this one. I didn't cry until it was over and I realized that what I feared was going to happen. Then I got a glass of wine and cried some more.

The Good

Sam getting one moment to at least remind the audience that these events were not ALL about Dean.

Despite Sam cutting off Dean's apology(?) again, (he really should let him finish those once in a while, it would be a nice change), the look on Dean's face after Sam said "I know" was really one of the few things that moved me. For just that second, the look on Dean's face said "I don't deserve this f@#king brother". It looked like Dean finally got it in that moment.

Jared's unselfconscious crying just always gets me. It's so real.

I was sorry that Gadreel died. I thought his scene was stellar and I really felt his pain.

The scene where the people killed that angel was chilling.

Metatron stabbing Dean was painful.

Despite myself, I'm curious to see how they're going to solve this dilemma.

The Bad

"I thought you didn't care." " I lied." I knew it was going to happen, but I had hoped I would get a surprise. Instead, we got a half baked almost apology from Dean that Sam didn't allow him to finish (again), and Sam sucking it up (again).

Sam, once again, not getting to save his brother. Some withered part of me is hoping that maybe they'll let this happen next year, but it's a fragile thing.

The fact that Gadreel's death and sacrifice was more moving to me than Sam and Dean's story. The disconnect I feel from their story is too painful.

I really wanted Dean to go off the rails and try and kill or succeed in killing Sam, and have him realize what he's done. And I'm not sure if Dean knocking Sam out was supposed to show us that Dean is still Dean in there somewhere and protecting his brother, but all it did was piss me off that it kept Sam out of the action again and that Dean has not learned a damn thing. See below a quote from a blog I read,

Quote:


142 notes
Reblogged from theboysofletters

• dean: *starting what sounds like an apology*
• sam: i know
• me: no no no let him talk this is a rare gift
• dean: *punches sam out*
• me: never fucking mind
In conclusion, yes I cried, but not for the reasons the show wanted me to. Sorry to be such a downer. Like I said, there were a few good moments and I'm curious to see where they're going.
MindiWynne
# MindiWynne 2014-05-21 07:43
I'm a little disappointed that it was easy to predict that Dean would wake up on the other side of the fence. He's had the ongoing bromance with Crowley brewing, he's been heading down a mean-guy path. And, they know how to fix him. So I think next season will be spent with Sam and Cas being the dynamic duo, chasing monsters and chasing Dean. I was also not surprised that Metatron's big speech to Cas was broadcast on the open mic for all angels to hear. When he was delivering the big monologue I had totally expected that mic to be open. Kinda even thought so earlier in the episode when Metatron used the mic the first time. So I don't think that this episode had much of the element of suprise, but it certainly had emotion! No matter how many times we have seen it, it's never easy to watch one of the brothers die. (It is kind of getting old, though)

I miss the days when the brothers would ride in the car and harrass each other, play pranks on each other, or say the same sentence at the same time. I can't imagine that they won't get back to that after Sam turns Dean back into a human.
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2014-05-21 08:09
OH. MY. GOD. What a finale! Yes, we kind of expected Dean to turn into a demon, but I was still shocked as hell (pun intended) when it happened. Those last 15 minutes had my head spinning! Dean saying to Sam that he was proud of them and then dying in his arms! :( Oh my, I gasped, then I cried, then I gasped again. Actually I may have stopped breathing.

And yes Bookdal I am joining you on that ship. Moonhowlers indeed. I want to put a smiley face, but I'm too sad!
Puck
# Puck 2014-05-21 11:41
Moonhowlers will be a darkly comedic ride I'm sure.

I did stop breathing, for five straight episodes now, ("Bloodlines" doesn't exist), and I spilled my beer again. All I could think of when the credits rolled all I could say besides "WHOA!" was "You're gonna die Dean and this is what you're gonna become." It's been echoing in my head for months now alongside "You're not gonna like what walks back out that door."
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2014-05-21 11:52
Amen, Palaleski. ha.
I thought of that scene with DEAN and the black eyes too.;)
That's when you are a long time, TRUE, Fan. Knowing the lines verbatim. HAHA
Fan not FANATIC.
Puck
# Puck 2014-05-21 12:56
Irony: I really came to stay during S7, but I admit I'm an addict. I mean really how many of us have written "Amen Padaleski." In the last 2-3 weeks?! And seriously how many of us have know, and not just since last week, that this was where Carver was taking us? And yet here we are, day one of hellatus, and how many of us are still blown away by what happened?

I'm tempted, even despite all this season's faults, to type "Carver you magnificent bastard," but I have a twinge of fear because as excellent as "Sacrifice" was "I Think I'm Gonna Like It Here" stalled the momentum. I'm still wrapping my head around everything that just happened and not in a bad way ("Rock and a Hard Place") but a good way ("First Born.")
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2014-05-21 08:12
Double post.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-05-21 08:58
Sadly, they have completely whitewashed the question and repercussions of Sam's possession. I'm going to have a difficult time forgiving Carver for this.

"As far as crying or any level of weepy-ness, not a bit. As I mentioned last week, having difficulty feeling sympathy for Dean and his behavior. And, because of this, the "broments" just didn't have the impact they should have, at least for me, so I guess that makes me soulless. Like the show summary said, actions have consequences, unless your Sam and get possessed in which case, que sera sera."

I will never be able to forgive Carver for doing this to Sam either. Just a continuation of Sam, the plot point. ARGHHH!
PSG
# PSG 2014-07-02 11:23
In episode 3 of this season Sam reiterates that the human vessel must give permission to the angel in order to be possessed. Ergo Sam gave permission. It's on Sam for trusting Gadreel wearing Dean's face and not asking questions, just like it's on Dean for taking on the mark without getting all of the pertinent information. At least Dean accepted the consequences without blaming anyone else; this is what a mature person does.
eilf
# eilf 2014-07-02 17:47
Quote:
It's on Sam for trusting Gadreel wearing Dean's face and not asking questions, just like it's on Dean for taking on the mark without getting all of the pertinent information. At least Dean accepted the consequences without blaming anyone else; this is what a mature person does.
Technically Dean trusted 2 people he didn't know anything about (Gadreel and Cain) to not screw him over. Which screwing over they went ahead and did because you know they didn't owe him anything. And Gadreel sort of fulfilled what he said he would do and Cain tried to tell Dean.
Sam on the other hand trusted the person who asked him to consider him 'stone number one' and someone he had trusted all his life.
We have heard what Sam said, which really nobody could blame him for, and which Dean was expecting.

However the following is what Dean said to Gadreel:

Quote:
DEAN: Why are you doing this, huh? We fought together. And I trusted you. I thought you were one of the good guys!

GADREEL: I am doing what I have to do.


Which is precisely the same conversation as Dean and Sam had on the bridge. Sam said he trusted Dean and look what happened and Dean said it wasn't in him not to even though he knew it was not what Sam wanted.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-07-05 19:48
Sam didn't trust Gadreel. He trusted Dean. So are you now saying that Sam shouldn't have trusted Dean? That sounds like what you are saying to me. And Dean didn't accept any consequences because he ran away rather than talk to Sam about it.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-07-07 03:35
Quote:
It's on Sam for trusting Gadreel wearing Dean's face and not asking questions,
This is not what happened.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-21 09:19
Bookdal - a belated Happy Birthday!
suzee51
# suzee51 2014-05-21 09:35
OK guys, unlike all of the other deep thinkers on this site, it always takes me a while to process a finale episode. I have only watched it once but before I sit down to watch it again, would someone please answer three questions for me? THANK YOU.

#1) After listening to Crowley's monolog at the end, I am unclear about Crowley's role in the entire MoC story. Did Crowley intentionally take Dean to Cain in the hope that Cain would give him the MoC as a part of a much larger scheme he is weaving?

#2) Is Dean's body dead - but possessed? (Like if they "cure" Dean and get rid of the demon, he would still be dead?)

#3) Wasn't there something in the MoC curse that said that no one who saw the Mark was supposed to kill the bearer, or they would suffer? Or is that part not valid in our SPN universe? (Like does Metatron now "suffer" from killing the bearer of the Mark?)
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-21 09:55
#1 - Yes, initially, he wanted Dean to take on the Mark of Cain to kill Abaddon.
#2 - Dean is dead and the Mark of Cain/First Blade have turned him in to a demon because it wouldn't let him "die".
#3 - I don't think that's been established yet
suzee51
# suzee51 2014-05-21 10:13
Thanks for responding, njspnfan!

#1) I realize that Crowley wanted to get rid of Abaddon . . .but in relating that he "didn't lie" but chose not to tell Dean the story he knew of how Cain committed suicide but the Blade wouldn't let him die - after hearing that, does it sound like Crowley ALWAYS was hoping Dean would eventually become a demon for his own future use? Like his own personal demon weapon once Abaddon was out of the picture?

#2) So if Sam attempted to "cure" Dean's demon, would DEAN's body be dead (like Meg's was when her demon left)?

Sorry to be so dense! But I still don't understand.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2014-05-21 10:26
no SUZEE51 all good questions and this is where to do it dear.
1. yes I think Crowley wanted Dean to be his new demon/squire. He was not sure but knew More To The Story. [more TEEN WOLF lingo]
2. not sure either. I need to go back and watch FIRST BORN SONS or whatever the name is again.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2014-05-21 10:26
no SUZEE51 all good questions and this is where to do it dear.
1. yes I think Crowley wanted Dean to be his new demon/squire. He was not sure but knew More To The Story. [more TEEN WOLF lingo]
2. not sure either. I need to go back and watch FIRST BORN SONS or whatever the name is again.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-21 10:30
#1 good questions; I think Crowley suspected that this would happen to Dean but wasn't sure. And as far as to what ends, I guess that's a story for S10.
#2 in S8, the implication was that the cure would change a demon back in to a human with a soul. But you're right, Dean was fatally stabbed so I guess he'd have to be healed, probably by Castiel with his diminished grace, in order for him to live. To be honest, I'm skeptical as to how this is going to work next season.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-05-21 10:56
Quote:
#2) Is Dean's body dead - but possessed? (Like if they "cure" Dean and get rid of the demon, he would still be dead?)
This is actually pretty interesting. If Dean is cured of demonitis, then will the stab mark will remain? I know that Lucifer healed Sam from the bullet wounds he got when Bobby shot him but he was Lucifer. It would be interesting if Sam cured Dean, then closed the gates of hell (and hence died), then Dean died of the wound. There endeth the show!
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-21 10:57
Wow, Tim, that's certainly a cheerful end to the series :D
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-05-21 11:44
In fairness, when you compare it to what they face while again, it probably is!
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2014-05-21 12:04
I'm with you, Tim. "There'll be peace when you are done" so the song says and that's what I'm hoping for.
Puck
# Puck 2014-05-21 13:12
In the meantime Dean truly takes the wayward son crown from Sam. Man I love their music! And their bond. And Cas and Crowley. And the Impala. And their quips, jokes, and pop culture references. Did I forget something? Oh yeah, the meta. ... I guess why no matter how dubious the plot, the reckless retconning, and how the kill of secondary characters I may like I still tune-in (on someone else's TV) week after week.

You made another great play Carver. Don't screw it up this time.
Puck
# Puck 2014-05-21 11:52
The kids (18-22, wow that makes me feel old saying it) I work with and I agreed when this show ends they all have to go: Dean, Sam, and Cas, there can be no survivors, or the finale will loose it's emotional impact.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-21 12:02
those kids, with their texting and murder :) I think you're right; the brothers will die at the end of the series.
Puck
# Puck 2014-05-21 13:06
HAHAHAHA! Nice! I really can't say much. I'm 26, but I'm the one usually in charge, and yet they've followed this show longer. (Sometimes I hate not having cable for the last 5 years. Hulu to the rescue.) They've been so jealous it's been finals so that I got to watch the season on air while they're still on "#THINMAN." I made them promise to skip "Bloodlines"--C as calls them with a lead. Sam begs his Samsessor not to get involved. The end.
Puck
# Puck 2014-05-21 11:48
#2) After what happened to Meg the First that's a valid question. Maybe they have to wait until his body heals. Can it heal? Or does Cas/random angel number three have to heal Dean/his meat suit? At least they skipped over the torture in Hell bit as we know he's already been through that.
#3) *evil laugh* Metadork gets his just desserts in his heaven cell or is he exempt since Dean may not have actually died?
hlnkid
# hlnkid 2014-05-21 10:15
"I'm proud of us". Just stab us all in the heart, Dean! Oh man, what a line...and how it was pulled off. Cudos to ALL the SPN group for last nights episode. From the writing to the directing to the special effects... and the acting was the best all season. The J's really brought game big time. As did the entire cast. No idea what will happen next season (I do hope we see Cain again though) after this ending... and I'm so glad that Sam was 'lying' about saving Dean (in mid season) if positions had been reversed. I suspected (as many of us did) that that would come into play at some point before the season was out. But didn't expect it to come in exactly this fashion. Just WOW WOW WOW all around last night. No idea how a 9 year old show can still bring it...but it does.

Now..about this waiting until October thing for Season 10 to start....sigh.. .
Puck
# Puck 2014-05-21 11:56
OCTOBER IS GONNA BE EXCITING! After this! Add in "What happens in Terminus stays in Terminus" and oh man is gonna be AWESOME! Plus, I do love Halloween.
Scullspeare
# Scullspeare 2014-05-21 10:39
Quote:
1. What do you think will happen now with Demon Dean and HumanSam? What of the brotherhood? (and btw, who didn’t see that coming?)
The final scene was a good one (major kudos to Mark Sheppard) but certainly no shock; the showrunners dropped too many breadcrumbs for us not to see where this was headed. But going forward? I think Jensen will knock it out of the park, whatever he’s given, but I hope the writers have a much more cohesive plan than they had for Season 9.

For the second season in a row, we got a lovely brotherly moment in the finale. The impact of last year’s evaporated in the next episode once Ezekiel/Gadreel took up residence in Sam. The fallout drove a wedge between the brothers for the rest of the season and, forgive my pessimism, but I just see more of the same in Season 10. They can’t ‘cure’ Dean in the first few episodes, otherwise what was the point? They can’t just move on to the MOTW episodes–well, they can, and might, but how much sense does that make? Sam, at least the one I’ve gotten to know over the past decade, would be pretty damn fixated on making sure his brother doesn’t remain the very thing he’s despised his whole life.

I miss the ‘us against the world’ aspect of the brothers’ relationship. Please forgive the fast food analogy, but I was stuck at a red light, staring at the Golden Arches while thinking about last night’s episode when these thoughts started to form. McDonald’s success is based on the sales of burgers and fries. To remain relevant, they’ve have to change with times, so they’ve tweaked their menu adding fancy coffees and salads, etc. But have they gotten rid of the burgers and fries? No, because that’s the cornerstone of their success–their core product. I hate that I’m comparing Sam and Dean to burgers and fries :p, but the brothers’ relationship is the core product of this franchise and, too often, it seems, these writers forget that.

Whatever they do with Demon Dean and I-need-to-save-my-brother Sam, all I ask is this: please don’t wait until next season’s finale to put the ‘core product’ back on the menu.

Quote:
2. Now that Castiel wants to be an angel but not a leader, what do we think will happen to heaven?
I really, really hope that the reorganization of Heaven takes place off screen next season. To be blunt, that story was as dull as dishwater. Corporate culture in action is not a good spectator sport (Didn’t Season 7’s Dick Roman et al prove that?), and that’s what the so-called “Battle for Heaven” became.

Remember when angels were scary? Think back–way back, to 4.02 when Cas appeared to Dean in a dream to tell him about the seals being broken. Dean got cocky, and with one step forward Cas let him know he’d crossed a line. Very little scares Dean Winchester but, in that moment, Cas did. When was the last time we saw angels wield that kind of power? Remember when archangels were described as “Heaven’s most terrifying weapon”? As much as I like Richard Speight Jr.’s Gabriel, “terrifying” is not the word that comes to mind. If angels are going to part of Season 10, I want the scary ones back.

For me, they also got rid of the wrong angel last night; I would have loved to see Metatron go and Gadreel stay.

As Metatron kept up his interminable speechifying (yes, I made up that word ;)), I kept thinking he’s no real threat; if he keeps this up, his followers will a) drop dead of boredom or b) take themselves out to escape the tedium. I know I would.

When Cas saved Gadreel, for one tiny, misguided second I thought maybe, just maybe he would live through the episode. Silly me. And while, dramatically, I appreciate his sacrifice, I think much more dramatic potential was wasted with his demise. He and Cas made a great team; suddenly Cas was the more worldly-wise, pop culture savvy of the two. How much untapped comedic potential was there in that? And as the more naturally gifted warrior of the two, one with so much to atone for, Gad would have been a great ally as Cas tries to figure out what to do about his fading grace.

I also think there’s a huge loss in not exploring an uneasy truce between Gadreel and Sam; Sam may have been willing to work with him/use him to get Metatron, but no way was all forgiven and forgotten. I’m really sad we won’t get to see that relationship explored, and to see Jared and Tahmoh work together.
Puck
# Puck 2014-05-21 12:18
Quote:
I hate that I’m comparing Sam and Dean to burgers and fries :p, but the brothers’ relationship is the core product of this franchise and, too often, it seems, these writers forget that.
As long as it's a double cheese burger with bacon and extra onions, right? ;)

Quote:
As Metatron kept up his interminable speechifying (yes, I made up that word ;)), I kept thinking he’s no real threat; if he keeps this up, his followers will a) drop dead of boredom or b) take themselves out to escape the tedium. I know I would.

When Cas saved Gadriel, for one tiny, misguided second I thought maybe, just maybe he would live through the episode. Silly me. And while, dramatically, I appreciate his sacrifice, I think much more dramatic potential was wasted with his demise. He and Cas made a great team; suddenly Cas was the more worldly-wise, pop culture savvy of the two. How much untapped comedic potential was there in that? And as the more naturally gifted warrior of the two, one with so much to atone for, Gad would have been a great ally as Cas tries to figure out what to do about his fading grace.

I also think there’s a huge loss in not exploring an uneasy truce between Gadriel and Sam; Sam may have been willing to work with him/use him to get Metatron, but no way was all forgiven and forgotten. I’m really sad we won’t get to see that relationship explored, and to see Jared and Tahmoh work together.
You took the words outta my mouth! Oh well, we can't change the past until of course we take Gavin with us. ;)
Scullspeare
# Scullspeare 2014-05-21 22:01
You bring up a good point: Gavin.

By keeping Gavin in the future, Crowley changed history. Now, as far as Crowley is concerned, his son didn't amount to much in the past before he died on that ship, so what harm could it do? A lot, I'm betting; given how fast and loose many of this season's scripts played with canon, why make a big deal out of this plot point if it isn't going to come into play later?

Crowley was genuinely surprised when he sensed that Dean had become a demon, crediting the Mark of Cain. But what if it was never meant to be that way? What if Gavin should have started or stopped something in the past? For example, let's say it was his fault the ship sank; he's not there, the ship doesn't sink - it's My Heart Will Live On all over again. And what if part of that fallout was the series of events that led to Dean's demonization in Do You Believe in Miracles?

Just speculating...: D But Gavin's presence has to play a role in Season 10 somehow.
Puck
# Puck 2014-05-22 14:15
Now you bring up another good point: :D
    a) I don't think Gavin was wearing the signet ring that ultimately Rufus stole
    b) Where does that leave Bobby?
    c) Does that mean that Chevy still never created the Impala? ... Looks like they recently changed the design again *sigh* now it looks like the Cadillacs GM came up with a few years ago which is to say a little out of place. But I'm about as obsessive over auto design (and their product commercials) as a person can get w/o being a motor head. Small wonder I went into the communications/ advertising/des ign/marketing field.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2014-05-21 11:04
well I am way over my two pages of comments.

I want GADREEL back the ORIGINAL VICTIM
METATRON has got to GOooooooooooooo oooo. Cas did the right thing but the mofo's gotta go. Period
Puck
# Puck 2014-05-21 12:19
More MOC madness to the rescue?
dashnjo
# dashnjo 2014-05-21 12:44
Wow! I will give kudos to Carver for having the (insert Bobby catchphrase here) to actually do Demon!Dean! Yeah, I'm super scared for him and am guessing that next season will be partially (hopefully it won't go on past the mid-season finale) about Sam and most likely Cas trying to save Dean. Cain obviously found Colette with whom he was able to find love and a reason to gain control so I'm hoping that they can find a way to get through to Dean. But since Sam was summoning Crowley to save Dean (wonder why he didn't call Cas, maybe he thinks he's dead or knows his grace is weak so won't be able to do it without dying himself) maybe Sam won't even realize right away but Cas will know. It was really nice to get some real Sam POV ... it's been there it's just been subtle and I've wanted more than the soulful faces and POV by Sam agreeing with everything Cas said (First Born).

The look on Metatron's face when he realized everything he was telling Cas in his office was being broadcast to all the angels was delicious! Our neighbors may have heard us yelling "YES!" at that point. I'm not sure why Metatron is still alive and Gadreel had to die but it was a good death. I didn't really get the feeling that Cas still wanting to be an angel is because he wants to be a part of Heaven per se ... he doesn't want to be the leader still so I wonder if he will still be a part of Heaven or off on his own but regardless he'll have to either get a new grace or get rid of the one he has and be human or he's gonna die.

Crowley always gets the best speeches, and Mark Sheppard is the master of delivering them. The one thing with Crowley is he won't lie outright but by omission ... there's always something he leaves out and it's always something crucial. Like Meg says in Season 7, "Crowley's always the problem" but he's so good you just have to love him a little bit ... not follow him cuz he's not a good man/demon but so happy to see he'll be back even if it is a thorn in their side.

So looking forward to next season ... there's so many ways to take it from here, just hope Carver does it right!
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-21 12:48
i'm wondering if Cas tries to get back his own grace in S10? Didn't Metatron save that to use for a spell?
Puck
# Puck 2014-05-21 13:22
Did Fandom ever devise a Demon!Dean possession tattoo scheme or did we just debate it with no conclusion?
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-21 15:35
Are you referring to the fact that Dean has an anti-possession tatoo? Technically, he wasn't possessed; his own soul turned all demony. And besides, that's about where Metatron stabbed him with the angel blade, isn't it?
Puck
# Puck 2014-05-22 14:19
Oh yeah. Thanks njspnfan! Thinking he got stabbed right through his heart which is more central, but off-angles make determining difficult. Regardless, what a freaking painful way to go. Then, again has either brother died any other way?
LEAH
# LEAH 2014-05-21 13:46
Hi Bookdal, thanks! I haven't read all the comments so apologies if I repeat something someone already said. I will start out by saying I am very excited about the set-up for next year. Dean and Crowleys excellent adventures, that should be fun! I am wondering how demony Dean will be. Will he be able to hunt? Should he be? Will he go hunting with Sam watching him like a hawk? I can't see it. I think Cas and Sam, or just Sam, will do any hunting. They can't have a whole season without hunting can they? I do LOVE the idea that Sam will tirelessly find a way to help Dean, even if it is just so that Dean can die a human. My biggest emotional moments were Sam's raw grief (damn Jared is good!) and Deans tenderly holding Sam's face. I think Dean saying that he was "proud" of them meant that he was proud that they are still fighting the good fight despite everything they have been through and were still united despite their personal crap. Those two can freaking act circles around most of the actors on TV!! Sad to lose Gadreel, he was a complex and interesting character. I love Crowley more every time I see him. Honestly he would have been an awesome Metatron if he wasn't already on the show. We can't ever lose Mark Sheppard. I am underwhelmed with the character of Metatron. No real menace like the big bads of the past. I think I read too many spoilers and speculations because I wasn't terribly shocked at any of the 'shocking' moments. I am looking forward to next season!
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-05-21 14:51
i guess i'm kind of hoping for the opposite. don't get me wrong, crowley and dean have just as good chemistry as crowley and sam. it's different, but it's all goodness. what i think would be more interesting and a lot scarier would be if dean came back evil. i mean really evil, like abbadon evil. only in this case he'd be all the more scarier because he's not simply dean being influenced by the mark and the blade, he's a demon influenced by the mark and the blade, that of which makes dean feel very powerful, imagine what it would do to demon dean. i think and therefore have hopes that dean is more than even crowley can handle. i think the kicker would be for crowley to have expected dean to be his best demon bud, but it turns out dean wants crowley's role as king. we would get to see an awesomely dark dean which is always fun, but in this way the story line won't last as long. at least not the demon/dean aspect of it. then the rest of the season could be spent, after sam cures demon dean, searching for cain and removing the mark. my hopes is at some point sam gets the blade from dean, gives it to cas and cas puts it where no one can get to it. i think that's a better plan because as much as people are stoked for a demon dean the novelty of it will wear off, it always does. when that happens people start to show their discontent through harsh words and negativity...go ing back to trashing carver and the writing crew because things aren't progressing as they should. i only say this because it's been a part of what's happened this season. not for me though i love this season.

now can sam cure dean the way they learned? i mean dean turned into a demon, he's not possessed by one. so tattoo or not i dont think it matters in this case. carver did mention layers to sam's angel thing, so i wonder if somehow that might come into play. for me i know sam will save dean, it's just a matter of how and when, so no real worries regarding that. my only fear, as i said, is that it happens sooner rather than later.

i really did enjoy this finale, and i plan to rewatch it again after farawayeye's review. she always opens my eyes and looks at an episode in a way that i may have not noticed. i didn't cry, but when it was over, i was pleased and i thought it was handled just right. i've gotten used to the way carver tells his story. he doesn't rush it. his story telling is episodic, but watching on a binge it all ties together. i think there's a little bit more realism in the way he tells the story.
i loved the scene at the trailer park. i thought it was both touching and extremely important, a turning point for dean. sam was still upset with what dean had done, he wasn't able to contain that resentment, but in the next breath sam told dean he wouldn't leave him. he knew what dean had to do and he showed dean his faith in him. he also showed dean how much he loved him. because despite still being a bit ticked off at dean, sam showed dean that no matter what he does, what mistakes he makes, sam is there by his side. sam loves him. this was cemented when dean told sam how proud he was of them. how no matter what, they love ea. other and they stand by ea. other. nothing the other does to the other can ever override their love. dean died knowing his brother loved him and stood by him. that's something dean needed to know. that gave him peace. but alas, dean didn't really die, instead the mark and the blade turned him complete demonic... but that doesn't take away what sam said and it is important that dean knows his brother loves him and stands by him.
when sam does save dean as we know he will, dean willl understand that sam never stopped loving him and never gave up on him.

i knew going in that sam wouldn't save dean physically, but i still say sam saved dean. it also makes sense that they wouldn't talk through their issues because carver isn't finished having the boys walk in ea. other's shoes, it really just started. for sam, the real walking in dean's shoes comes now...when sam learns of what his brother becomes and what he will do to get his brother back. it will also help sam understand why dean has been so protective of him all these years and what dean has been protecting him from.

now for dean, well i think what's happening to him is necessary. for some, like dean, the only way to change is for something life affirming to happen to them. sometimes it's a tragedy. sometimes a stint in jail. sometimes a near death experience. and for dean....turning into the very thing he feared he was all along...a monster. how is this going to help dean? well look how it all happened. ...he ended up where he is because he decided to make decisions that were not truly his to make and he tricked sam and lied to him which led to a lost trust. instead of owning up to sam and taking responsibility, he chose to run off and thus punish himself, more than sam ever would or could. why not just face his brother, well sam hit the nail on the head, well partly, that being that dean doesn't want to be alone. this is true and his self loathing and lack of trust in himself and his view of himself as nothing more than a killer contribute to this fear of being alone, which ultimately drives dean to extreme measures. of course his love for his brother is also the reason, he sees sam as worthy of saving for who sam is. but sam thinks dean only saves him because he doesn't want to be alone, because of his own lack of self worth...sam can't see the upside to being alive so how could dean? dean can't be doing it for sam, dean doesn't trust sam, that's why he lies to him...dean doesnt' see sam as anything but a responsibility to protect since they were children..so why would sam think of himself as anything but dean's burden to bear....misconception...

what's happening to dean now can ultimately change how both brother's view themselves. sam can save dean, thus showing dean how much he truly does love his brother. also, and with great hope, maybe sam can see that he is worthy of dean's love for who he is and not because dean feels that he's his responsibility. if sam can save dean, then maybe he can believe that dean does and always has trusted in him.
for dean, dean will understand that no matter what he does or what kind of monster he believes himself to be, sam will never see dean that way. sam never has. sam might get pissed at dean, but he loves him and will stand by him and in that respect, sam will never let dean go...sam's never ending faith and love in his brother, despite dean's actions, might very well give dean a sense of self worth. i'm also hoping that this experience will help dean understand that going to extremes to the point of hurting more than helping is not always the right way to go...i think this experience will give dean the ability to change, something he hasn't been able to do thus far....but in this case, i guess in order for dean to see the light, extreme measures are in order, so i guess this one time is acceptable. :D

damn i digressed...i'm sorry...forgive the ramble.

really looking forward to next season and how the story plays out. although i do secretly hope i am right and it plays out more of a diabolical demon dean, it just makes more sense that demon dean would be overcome with power from the blade and want to rid crowley so he can reign as king....i would so love for crowley to have no choice but to sink to the lowest of humanity's level and have to help dean...his hopes dashed yet again as to having someone by his side wreak havoc on earth...but hey, his son is still around...
LEAH
# LEAH 2014-05-21 15:22
Hi Nappi nice post. I always enjoy it when you digress.:) I was being a little tongue-in-cheek with the hunting and the "excellent adventure" stuff. I was just wondering how 'evil' demonDean will be. I would love for him to be powerful and very dark. I am trying to figure out how that will work. I mean, to make that apparent, will Dean have to slaughter innocents? I do know that I want to be there to see how it'll unfold.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-21 15:43
nappi815 - yep, it will be interesting how far they push this, whether Dean does go all dark side or can control his inner demon, or whether he does become Crowley's right hand man. If they push it too far, and he starts killing innocents, they risk Dean becoming unlikeable/unsy mpathetic. And, also, they typically don't have Sam and Dean apart for too many episodes so there are the logistics of that to deal with.
LEAH
# LEAH 2014-05-21 16:00
Yeah njspnfan, those are the things I am wrestling over myself! I really don't want to see a cuddly demonDean. But how far can they go? If they just make him a crabbier Dean (if that is possible:)) I would find that a cop-out. Having him go on a scorched earth slaughter rampage doesn't work either. Hmm it will be tricky.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-21 16:03
Leah - oh well, we have 5 months to ponder. Will start my S1-S9 rewatch this weekend; That's gonna take a while; not sure what I'm gonna do if they get to S15 :)
LEAH
# LEAH 2014-05-21 16:31
:) Enjoy.
E
# E 2014-05-21 19:57
Quote:
it will be interesting how far they push this, whether Dean does go all dark side or can control his inner demon, or whether he does become Crowley's right hand man. If they push it too far, and he starts killing innocents, they risk Dean becoming unlikeable/unsympathetic
This is good question; I don't feel that TPTB will ever go there with Dean they way they have with Sam multiple times; they don't have the guts to make their favorite be mean or unlikable. They will never do it IMO. My biggest fear for season 10, (now that the inevitable has come to pass) is that we will get warm, fuzzy, angst filled, guilt ridden DemonDean agonizing over every kill he makes, over every bad act, with long monologues explaining in excruciating detail all of his inner feelings. I predict he'll get oodles and oodles of POV over countless episodes and bucket loads of sympathy and insight. He will bravely fight the good fight creating a new breed of sympathetic demon. I predict Dean will be the nicest, kindest and most introspective demon ever in the history of the world. And for Sam? They will imply that Sam is possibly looking for a way to save Dean (during the opening credits perhaps, so that he doesn't have to say anything); he won't be very effective though, and we won't have any clue what he's thinking or how he feels. And then, after the two minutes per epodes they spend on dealing with what Sam is up to, we'll swing quickly back to Dean and his suffering. Yes, I am cynical, and unhappy.

What a colossal waste this season has been. I mentioned in Alice's review of 9x22 that I believed that all of season 8 and now all of this seasons build up has been leading to this point all along. Sam not looking for Dean was actually just a plot point to make Dean feel isolated, Sam and the angel possession, something cool that seemed to actually be about Sam for a change, has turned out to be not so, as the angel possession thing was really only about motivating Dean into the state he was in when he accepted the blade; the trials were only to get Sam into a physical state to create the need for the possession and weren't really about Sam at all. The way that Sam has been written and treated these past two seasons is deplorable and he basically has had no storyline that is his own what-so-ever for two whole years, as all the story lines that appeared to be his have actually turned out to be really about motivating Dean into accepting the blade. I am not at all sure why the character of Sam is even on this show any more; he hasn't done a damned thing in two whole seasons. The POV issue has gotten worse under Carver, not better. I mourn the days of Bed Edlund, Sera Gamble, Katherine Humpries et al, who knew how to write stirring drama and knew that there were TWO brothers on this show and that they each had something to offer to the storyline. Sorry to be such a downer folks. :(
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-22 08:47
E - don't apologize; from reading the comments the last few weeks, a lot of people feel the same way, but there are strong opinions on both sides. I just watched the episode again and felt strangely disconnected; even when they queued up the Sam and Dean "broment" music, I just wasn't "feeling it". Hey, maybe I am soulless :) I'm trying but am just having a difficult time sympathizing with Dean and, since the show is told from his POV, this has left me very disappointed and feeling disconnected from the story. And I agree with the story line/POV issue; they've done a horrible job of keeping both brothers engaged in the storyline at the same time. In S8, Dean had the excellent purgatory arc, then turned in to Sam's nurse maid in the second half of the season while Sam did the trials. If I was Jared, I would have sued the writers for character assassination after that Sam/Amelia storyline :D

Ironically, the heaven/angel storyline has bored the crap out of me, and that had a much more satisfying resolution than where the Dean/MoC storyline ended up. I'm not sure who the big bad is supposed to be next year; Dean, Crowley, Crowley and Dean, Crowley's son, Metatron's typewriter, the MoL bunker which seems to be letting in a lot of evil shit it's supposed to be warded against?
PSG
# PSG 2014-07-02 12:22
I think that Sam has gotten a similar story to Dean's in the early seasons. Of course Dean did everything to prevent Sam from becoming a monster and Sam's rejection and condemnation drove Dean to accepting the mark. In researching the season I couldn't help but compare and contrast Dean's speech to Sam at the end of Devil May Care to Sam's speech to Dean at the end of the Purge. In the first one brother exonerated the other for a decision that directly lead to thousands of deaths. In the latter one brother eviscerated the other and tells him that he is poison and his life's work a failure. In a season about consequences I am surprised that no one cares to
discuss the consequences of Sam's angry venting at Dean which consisted of exaggerations and lies if one has watched the show. Kicking a depressed Dean when
he's already self-loathing, accepting full responsibility for his actions and wanting to atone seems petty and cruel at best.

I am hoping that demonic Dean sticks around and gives the character some well deserved ego.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-07-02 14:08
Quote:
Sam's rejection and condemnation drove Dean to accepting the mark.
No.Quote:
Of course Dean did everything to prevent Sam from becoming a monster
No.Quote:
a decision that directly lead to thousands of deaths
It was not a decision it was decisions one of which Dean made,which surprisingly he does not get blamed for.Quote:
In the latter one brother eviscerated the other and tells him that he is poison and his life's work a failure.
Rightly so.Dean would not have got that harsh things said to him if he had apologised but Dean did not ,so he has to listen to whatever Sam dishes out.Quote:
Kicking a depressed Dean when
he's already self-loathing, accepting full responsibility for his actions and wanting to atone seems petty and cruel at best.
the thing is he did not accept full responsibility. .if he had he would have asked for Sam's forgiveness.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-07-02 14:42
Dean has vented his hurt at Sam I saw no diffrence in what Sam did. It was not like Sam got up one morning and without any reason decided I am going to say horrible things to Dean because I am bored, Dean created the situation and the consquences of it. The one thing I found more annoying than anything from Sam's possession was the victimization of Dean, he got himself into the MOC because he could not face Sam not because Sam was ranting at him . He took on the mark before Sam had barely said a word Dean is responsibile for where he is now.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-07-02 14:50
Let me remind you of the basic chronology of this season. Vesta declares Sam as only being held together with duct tape and safety pins and "Zeke" reiterates that without "Zeke" healing Sam, Sam will drop dead. Dean discovers that the angel he thought was Zeke is not in fact Zeke and decides to expel him from Sam's body. His first attempt fails, because Gadreel become aware of it. So he changes the sigil and then kills Kevin. Once he has been tracked down, Dean tortures Sam's body trying to get Gadreel out, when that doesn't work he brings in Crowley and tells Crowley to possess Sam, an action that left Linda Tran catatonic and unresponsive. Sam drives Gadreel out. This conversation ensues.

Quote:
Dean: Alright, let me hear it.
Sam: What do you want me to say? I’m pissed? Okay I am, I’m pissed. You lied to me - again.
Dean: I didn't have a choice.
Sam: I was ready to die Dean.
Dean: I know. But I wouldn't let you, because that’s not in me.
Sam: So what, you decide to trick me into being possessed by some...psycho angel?
Dean: He saved your life.
Sam: So what. I was willing to die. And now...Kevin.
Dean: No, that is not on you. Kevin’s blood is on my hands. And that ain’t ever getting clean. I’ll burn for that. I will. But I’ll find Gadreel and I will end that son of a bitch. But I’ll do it alone.
Sam: What’s that supposed to mean?
Dean then skedaddles off and takes the Mark in the next episode before he sees Sam again. You really believe that Sam having the audacity to say that he's pissed that Dean tricked him DROVE Dean to take the Mark, after Dean told him to let him have it? I see nothing particularly horrible, cruel or over the top about Sam being mad about Dean tricking him into saying yes. I will also note that Dean can't be bothered to stick around long enough to see if Gadreel and Vesta were telling the truth and Sam might die in the next few days without Gadreel inside or if Cas is actually able to heal Sam and keep him alive. So NO, whatever Sam said did NOT drive Dean to take the Mark. Dean did that all on his own.

As for absolving Sam of thousands of deaths, well Dean broke the first seal, so he's just as responsible for what happened as Sam, and no I don't blame him for breaking in Hell, I blame him for selling his soul so that he was in Hell to be broken. But back to Dean's absolution. Last season he was still blaming Sam and Sam alone for the Apocalypse. When Traci blamed Sam, Dean didn't step up and say that more people were involved than just Sam, he just let Sam take the heat. When Charlie said DEAN stopped the Apocalypse all by his little lonesome, Dean took the credit. Dean has hung the entire responsibility on Sam for Lucifer rising for years. What we saw was that the angels and demons had been planning this for LITERALLY (in the actual sense of the word) centuries. That Dean started the ball rolling when he broke the first seal. And that Sam made up for his part in the mess by recaging Lucifer and taking Michael along for the ride as an unexpected bonus.

I too hope Dean stays a demon for quite a while because it gives Jensen a meaty part an a way to stretch his acting muscles.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-07-02 14:51
It's hard to take your argument seriously when you have forgotten the basic chronology of this season. Vesta declares Sam as only being held together with duct tape and safety pins and "Zeke" reiterates that without "Zeke" healing Sam, Sam will drop dead. Dean discovers that the angel he thought was Zeke is not in fact Zeke and decides to expel him from Sam's body. His first attempt fails, because Gadreel become aware of it. So he changes the sigil and then kills Kevin. Once he has been tracked down, Dean tortures Sam's body trying to get Gadreel out, when that doesn't work he brings in Crowley and tells Crowley to possess Sam, an action that left Linda Tran catatonic and unresponsive. Sam drives Gadreel out. This conversation ensues.

Quote:
Dean: Alright, let me hear it.
Sam: What do you want me to say? I’m pissed? Okay I am, I’m pissed. You lied to me - again.
Dean: I didn't have a choice.
Sam: I was ready to die Dean.
Dean: I know. But I wouldn't let you, because that’s not in me.
Sam: So what, you decide to trick me into being possessed by some...psycho angel?
Dean: He saved your life.
Sam: So what. I was willing to die. And now...Kevin.
Dean: No, that is not on you. Kevin’s blood is on my hands. And that ain’t ever getting clean. I’ll burn for that. I will. But I’ll find Gadreel and I will end that son of a bitch. But I’ll do it alone.
Sam: What’s that supposed to mean?
Dean then skedaddles off and takes the Mark in the next episode before he sees Sam again. You really believe that Sam having the audacity to say that he's pissed that Dean tricked him DROVE Dean to take the Mark, after Dean told him to let him have it? I see nothing particularly horrible, cruel or over the top about Sam being mad about Dean tricking him into saying yes. I will also note that Dean can't be bothered to stick around long enough to see if Gadreel and Vesta were telling the truth and Sam might die in the next few days without Gadreel inside or if Cas is actually able to heal Sam and keep him alive. So NO, whatever Sam said did NOT drive Dean to take the Mark. Dean did that all on his own.

As for absolving Sam of thousands of deaths, well Dean broke the first seal, so he's just as responsible for what happened as Sam, and no I don't blame him for breaking in Hell, I blame him for selling his soul so that he was in Hell to be broken. But back to Dean's absolution. Last season he was still blaming Sam and Sam alone for the Apocalypse. When Traci blamed Sam, Dean didn't step up and say that more people were involved than just Sam, he just let Sam take the heat. When Charlie said DEAN stopped the Apocalypse all by his little lonesome, Dean took the credit. Dean has hung the entire responsibility on Sam for Lucifer rising for years. What we saw was that the angels and demons had been planning this for LITERALLY (in the actual sense of the word) centuries. That Dean started the ball rolling when he broke the first seal. And that Sam made up for his part in the mess by recaging Lucifer and taking Michael along for the ride as an unexpected bonus.

I too hope Dean stays a demon for quite a while because it gives Jensen a meaty part an a way to stretch his acting muscles.
Alice
# Alice 2014-07-03 11:31
A very interesting point, but I'm not sure how easy it is to compare the two conversations. The context was completely different at the time. For one, Sam was very, very angry and hurt when he said those words to Dean. When in that state, people say things they don't necessarily mean. To use an old cliche, it's a "heat of the moment." It wasn't until the Season Finale though that we really got a glimpse of what was truly happening inside Sam. The trauma of seeing his hands kill Kevin so to speak was very overwhelming for him. Given the fact that Dean lied to him too, again, it was more than Sam could take at the time. Eventually he came around, and we could see just how much he cared for Dean from that point forward, even if he was pushing him away.

However, so much of this falls on particularly bad writing, so it's hard for me to debate. It still pisses me off that Carver is the only writer that will even attempt to get inside Sam's character. Without knowing what was truly going on inside Sam, he just came off as an unsympathetic, selfish jerk. Most of us know that isn't the true Sam, but considering how much he internalizes, when you have a set of writers that refuse to draw out that inner torment, take those precious moments to share with us exactly what he's feeling, you get crap like you did this season. Why didn't we get any of that until the season finale at the trailer park?? But yes, your observation is correct, the way it played out Sam just looked horrible for doing that to Dean.

Elle2 in her recent article nailed it for me. She said this about Sam looking over Dean's dead body. “As Dean is dying he confesses to Sam that he knew the Mark was making him something he didn’t want to be, and that dying was better. Sam, for his part, shows in his expressions and desperation how much he hated keeping Dean at such a length, and now that Dean has died in his arms (again) it is clear that Sam regrets every moment of his anger at Dean – even as it was deserved.”

I'm not going to debate whether it's deserved or not right now (I'm still trying to work that out in the upcoming Deeper Look at Sam Winchester part II), but one thing's for sure, that was a whole on of pain and regret on that face. And we have yet to see all of that play out.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-07-03 14:56
....
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-07-03 22:23
Dean: Somebody changed the playbook, man, you know. It’s like what’s right is wrong and what’s wrong is more wrong.
Sam: Something’s broken here, Dean. … We don’t see things the same way anymore, our roles in this whole thing. Back in that church, talking me out of boarding up Hell? Or tricking me into letting Gadreel possess me? I can’t trust you. Not the way I thought I could. Not the way I should be able to.
Dean: Whatever happened, we are family. OK?
Sam: You say that like it’s some sort of cure-all, like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we’re family. You want to work, let’s work. If you want to be brothers… Those are my terms.

this is the conversation from sharp teeth and I was so very proud of sam for saying what he did to dean. it's about time dean's heard it. i did not think the writing was bad in this eppy at all. it was very clear to me what sam was saying to dean here. sam had just finished telling dean that they were broken. that he couldn't trust him anymore and all dean wanted to do was put a few more wins in the win column. that's how he wanted to deal with things, by not dealing with them. sam finishes telling dean that that he can't trust him and dean gives sam the same excuse he always gives when he tries to excuse his mistakes....he says we're family,,..as though being family excuses everything, including innocent people dying....sam is flat out telling dean here that, the we're family excuse is in fact not a cure all for all that's gone wrong between them. dean selling his soul, their father selling his soul, sam drinking demon blood so he can kill Lilith because he believed dean couldn't, dean tricking sam into being possessed by an angel...all of these extreme measures on both boys parts have all led to pain and bloodshed and innocents dying. the excuse used by all of them, we're family. as if being family makes their actions excusable. what sam is saying here, the lesson that sam has learned, that this is simply not the case. the excuse we're family" is not a valid reason and doesn't excuse the harm that their actions cause, not only to ea. other but to innocent bystanders as well. sam is basically telling dean here that 'we're family' no longer trumps damning the consequences... .not when the consequences lead to other people getting hurt or dying because of them. so yeah, i was damned proud of sam for finally saying something to dean about this and for acting on it....for trying to get his brother to deal with what he'd done instead of trying to bury it all as though nothing happened.

i was also very proud of sam in the purge. i know a lot of people thought what sam said was harsh...but i thought what sam said was absolutely necessary. i also thought this to be an awesome bonding moment. it may not have seemed like they bonded...but this was a moment of honesty and by damned dean needed to hear what sam had to say...
dean was at his most self righteous during this scene as well as being self centered. i mean dean is sitting across from his brother, telling him that he did the right thing and would do it again....knowin g what he knows, he'd still do it again. that's not selfless, that's selfish...he totally disregarded sam's feelings about everything that's happened. he in essence declared that kevin's death was an acceptable casualty... and given all the pain that everyone has been through because of this...sam, cas, dean, kevin, mrs tran....dean declares it was the right thing and he'd do it again and decides that sam would do it too....and kudos to sam for telling dean no.....in the same circumstances, situations reversed, no he wouldn't do it the same....sam wouldn't go against dean's wishes. we know this because it's happened before....sam wanted to use his powers to save dean. he wanted to use doc bentons book to keep dean alive. but dean said no. he didn't want to be saved that way. he didn't want to be a monster...he didn't want sam to be a monster...so sam did as dean asked even though it killed him when his brother died in his arms...he honored dean's wishes, in s8, sam kept his promise to his brother...so when sam says he wouldn't do it the same, i believe him. he wouldn't go against dean's wishes...he wouldn't lie or trick dean...he wouldn't let someone else die so that dean would live especially knowing that dean would never want that. remember faith, how upset dean got when he found out someone died because of him? sam is no different. sam most definitely never said he wouldn't save his brother.
dean's inability to listen to what sam says has more to do with his own lack of self worth. he hears what he would say to himself not what sam is saying. i actually think sam is used to this at this point. i mean dean did make little comments like i know you wouldn't do the same...which is why sam shows dean through his actions that he loves him. not that sam still doesn't try to talk to his brother. but sam shows dean...as angry as he's been, as emotionally distant as he's been feeling, dealing with all the pain and hurt and guilt, he never for a single second stopped showing how much he loves dean. he has been physically by dean's side and never for a moment has sam stopped fighting for his relationship with his brother. the words may have seemed harsh, but they were necessary. dean needs to take a long hard look at himself and he needs to start facing and dealing his issues it's dean's inability to deal with his issues that have led him to where he is now...a demon. he did it to himself....it all could've been avoided if dean had just stayed with his brother and dealt with what he'd done instead of running away.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-07-04 15:41
Sorry I left you hanging there. I deleted my post because I didn't think I was saying anything that hasn't already been covered. I understand why Dean did what he did and I understand why Sam reacted the way he did. It was a natural response by Dean to save Sam's life and by Sam to trust Dean. It is also a real response by Dean not to apologize for saving Sam. What was new was Sam really getting angry and being really hurt. Maybe that is what some fans are having a hard time with. Sam was expressing himself in a way that was shocking to Dean. And since we are told this story from Dean's POV what many fans see is Dean's reaction. Which in this case was shocked and hurt. I think it got forgotten why Sam said what he did. He was the one who was lied to (and again I understand why Dean did what he did) and he is the one who killed an innocent loved family member in Kevin. I don't think that the point of the conversation in the mind of the writer was to paint Sam as a villain but unfortunately that is what happened. Mostly because the dialogue was misinterpreted.
I agree with many that it took too long before we got a verbal resolution to the conflict and it was only as Dean was dying. I never for a moment doubted the bond was still there it was just slightly strained. But some more insight into what Sam was feeling would have been nice to hear (or even see). I don't know how this is going to be resolved but I'm with Jared I hope it is Sam that saves Dean and I hope the brothers go back to being brothers. I would like to see "you and me against the world" in Sam and Dean for the remainder of the series.
E
# E 2014-07-05 09:44
Quote:
And since we are told this story from Dean's POV what many fans see is Dean's reaction. Which in this case was shocked and hurt. I think it got forgotten why Sam said what he did. He was the one who was lied to (and again I understand why Dean did what he did) and he is the one who killed an innocent loved family member in Kevin. I don't think that the point of the conversation in the mind of the writer was to paint Sam as a villain but unfortunately that is what happened. Mostly because the dialogue was misinterpreted.
Hi Cheryl. Sorry to harp on this again, but it got forgotten what Sam said and why he said it because directly after he said what he said it was never addressed again until 9x23 and that one comment about nightmares which was too little, too late. To me Sam's whole story wasn't so much forgotten as it was ignored. Dean's shock and pain however, was driven home to the audience again and again, in episode after episode. The problem is not in the argument itself, it's in the unbalanced and biased story telling. The only reason Sam ended up looking bad, or having fans blame him for something that was Dean's fault is because his side of things has been totally ignored. It's pretty hard to sympathize with someone who's not given a solid argument or POV for that argument. And if they didn't want us, the fans to misinterpret Sam's argument, then why have Dean misinterpret it? Why have Dean get it TOTALLY and COMPLETELY wrong and have Sam never even stand up for himself or correct the mistake? Why have Dean get it wrong and then have Sam basically admit that what Dean thought was correct in the atrocious "I lied" comment at the end of the season? I mean, are the writers totally inept? Completely unobservant or did they plan it this way? I have no idea, but the end result is that, intentional or not, Sam got screwed; the victim was vilified and everybody bought it, even the writers.

Quote:
I agree with many that it took too long before we got a verbal resolution to the conflict and it was only as Dean was dying.
And I guess I don't agree that there was any meaningful resolution to the story at all. "I lied" and "I am proud of us" resolves nothing IMO. The basic conflict is still there, Dean still thinks Sam doesn't love him as much as he loves Sam, Sam says he lied about being OK with Dean dying, but Dean died anyway and Sam didn't save him… so what exactly was resolved? This kind of trite one liner resolution seems to be a trend on this show lately. The bothers spend all season NOT talking, then their "conflict" artificial generated by misunderstandin g, half finished sentences and not talking is summed up in one line that is supposed to serve as some kind of resolution. It feels like a cheesy soap opera rather than the complex intricate show I'm used to viewing.
lala2
# lala2 2014-07-05 18:21
Quote:
And if they didn't want us, the fans to misinterpret Sam's argument, then why have Dean misinterpret it? Why have Dean get it TOTALLY and COMPLETELY wrong and have Sam never even stand up for himself or correct the mistake? Why have Dean get it wrong and then have Sam basically admit that what Dean thought was correct in the atrocious "I lied" comment at the end of the season? I mean, are the writers totally inept? Completely unobservant or did they plan it this way? I have no idea, but the end result is that, intentional or not, Sam got screwed; the victim was vilified and everybody bought it, even the writers.
Even the actors, E. I read somewhere that Jared mentioned how he wants Sam to be there for Dean and how he didn't like how Sam hadn't been there for Dean this season. I listened to an interview w/Jensen on Winchester Radio where he called Sam "selfish" or something like that.

I think both actors heard the speech the way most fans did (i.e., that Sam wouldn't bother to save Dean), which is why Jared changed the dialogue from whatever the line was (I think it was, "I didn't know this would happen") to "I lied." I think Jared wanted to make sure the audience knew that Sam had Dean's back in the way Dean has had Sam's throughout the series.

I hated the speech myself, which is why I liked the "I lied" line. As you stated, if more had been said of Sam's comments after TP, then it would have been better but that did not happen. I was left w/Sam's cruel (IMO) words and wondering why these two were even together anymore. The exact same thing occurred last year w/the "not looking" plot. Sam told Dean in the premiere he thought Dean had died, but whenever confronted by his inaction w/r/t Dean later in the season, Sam never responded. He just stood there and said nothing while people accused him of abandoning Dean. Why Sam never said, "No, I didn't look for him b/c I thought he died" will never make any sense to me? Sam stood there silent and let people think the worst of him simply so Carver could have the brothers in some contrived, forced tension.
E
# E 2014-07-05 19:45
Yeah that's pretty much it lala… contrived. If the "conflict" being created can't stand on its own, meaning that it is dependent on half sentences, misunderstandin gs that are perpetuated artificially by not talking and correcting the misunderstandin g, and muddy, convoluted POV then it's no good. And it bugs me because the seeds of a real, organic conflict between the brothers was there all season long had the writers decided to dig into the possession situation instead of avoid it. But, maybe that would have taken too much work, so they took the easy way out.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-07-06 07:01
Quote:
I read somewhere that Jared mentioned how he wants Sam to be there for Dean and how he didn't like how Sam hadn't been there for Dean this season. I listened to an interview w/Jensen on Winchester Radio where he called Sam "selfish" or something like that.
This is the main reason why I have no hope for season 10
E
# E 2014-07-06 07:43
Yeah, me either. Its quite telling that Jensen thinks the character of Sam is selfish. I think his views are indicative of the views of all the writers, which is why I don't think that they see Dean as the character who needs to be making changes or the character who's behavior is questionable. It's so completely ironic to me that Jensen sees SAM as selfish, I mean, is he kidding? The character who has gone against his brother specifically to ensure his own needs time and time again? He doesn't see anything that Dean's done in the past two years as selfish? Wow. This is why I have no hope for season 10. I think it will be Sam will be shown the "error" of his ways not Dean. It will be Sam that will be shown that he should think and act like Dean, that he should go to the ends of the earth to save his brother, make shady deals, participate in questionable magic, sacrifice innocents and completely disregard everything Dean wants just to serve his own needs and impulses. Of course, if Sam actually does something like that, does exactly what Dean does, he'll still be wrong because Sam is always wrong even when he does or wants the same things Dean does…. Benny anyone?
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-07-05 10:51
i too understand why dean did what he did and i totally understand sam's reaction to it. the only thing though that i differ with you on is that i believe that dean knew that sam would be against it from the beginning. dean knew sam would be upset about being tricked into angel possession. dean knew sam would be upset about the lies....he knew all of this in the hospital. so I don't know if i can go with dean being shocked that sam was hurt and angry. it seemed to me before he even agreed to do it, he admitted to gad that this went against everything sam believed in. i think dean knew all along sam would be pissed, i just think dean expected that he could talk his way through it. that sam would be mad, but dean saving him would exonerate him from the lying and the deception. i do think that dean didn't count on was kevin's death. it's kevin's death that made everything worse. had dean fessed up to sam early on...had he trusted in sam to make the right decision regardless of whether he kept gad inside or ejected him, if dean had trusted in sam enough to tell him the truth, then kevin may very well not have died by sam's hand.

as for sam's response , well sam hasn't had the chance to properly deal with his anger and pain over what dean did, because dean hasn't been willing to face sam or even acknowledge that what he did was wrong. had dean stuck around instead of leaving sam on that bridge, yeah, he would've gotten an earful. sam would've let him have it, but at least it would've been resolved sooner. sam would've been able to work through his anger. he'd have been able to express his feelings and guilt about kevin. he would've had the chance to get pissed off...and then he would've had the time to heal and get over it...he would understand the possession and he would forgive dean for it...the lying would've taken longer to forgive, but he eventually would.....the problem however is that dean never gave sam the chance to express all his pain/hurt/anger / guilt because he walked away. dean couldn't face his brother so he left him there....he then decided to punish himself by taking the mark. when dean realized that sam wasn't going to let dean take off again, and they started working together, sam began to try to get through to his brother, to try to deal with what happened. he explained to him that they were broken and he couldn't trust in him. he was honest with him about how he was feeling and all he got in return was dean trying to bury it all. again, not physically running away but still running away.


people have posted that sam should've been able to express his feelings more, but i think he did express his feeling. i' guess i'm one of the few who did actually see in every single eppy sam expressing in one way or another how he was feeling. one opinion is that they have no idea what sam was supposed to be angry about or feeling, but yet posts have expressed exactly what sam is angry about. there are comments that say we should be shown how sam feels about the possession, but i think that his emotional distance from his brother, his anger, is telling us how he feels, otherwise everything would have been all hunky dory. most of us are aware of sam's history and already know how the possession would affect him. we as the fandom have made it very clear as to what we all in fact are aware of in great detail, so for me, it doesn't seem necessary to explain that in great detail. I think dean pretty much had summed it up before he even let gad into sam when he said sam would never want this. imho, i just think the writers sometimes count on us knowing the character well enough so that they don't have to go into great detail all the time. given the content of most of the posts, i'd say they are right :).. as for myself, i think sam did express himself verbally and quite clearly...the problem is that dean only hears what he wants to hear instead of what is being said. this is a common theme with dean when it comes to sam, and at this point i happen to think sam is totally aware of it. that is why i believe that sam shows dean through actions how much he loves him but yet is emotionally distant still to show dean that he is still hurting. sam could express in words over and over how he's feeling, hell twice already he's tried, but the problem still remains and that is that dean doesn't hear him...or doesn't want to hear him. i don't think that sam gave up on talking to dean, i think that he knew nothing he was saying was getting through to his brother so he had to show him how he was feeling ....which was anger, hurt and yes a whole lot of love.


e, to answer your question, at least as to what I believe....

nothing sam did or said caused dean to take the mark because sam never had a chance to say anything. dean's decent to demonhood is the result of his own inability to face up to his mistakes, his inability to trust, and his inability to face his own fears. nobody is the villain here...not sam or dean. as I've said, what i think we've been seeing these last two seasons is the story about the boys battling their own monsters. maybe that's why we haven't had hardly any motw eps...it seems to me that the motw has been the boy's inner demons. i know the story has been from dean's pov, but i found dean's pov to be somewhat self righteous and a wee bit and by wee bit i mean awfully self centered for most of the second half of this season....but then again i think that was what we're supposed to be getting, the worst part of who dean is. if he's going to conquer his demons than they're going to have to surface and that they did....now his inner demon has become "literal". he has become what he's feared and now he has to find out if he can face and defeat it. I believe that carver wanted dean to become a demon and the most realistic way for it to have happened was to play off of dean's long standing issues of lack of self worth and his belief that he's basically just a killer. carver didn't just contrive dean's issues in the last two seasons for the sake of the story. we were introduced to dean's issues, as well as sam's back when show began. they were touched upon but never fully explored and never resolved. carver, who just came off of a show called being human, seems to be telling the boys story from a human angle and less of a supernatural one...even though the end result and the cause of the conflict was by supernatural means. i happen to believe sam will save dean. i think that we will get that talk we've been yearning to hear...i believe carver when he said that they were going to rebuild their relationship ....i'm looking forward to the boys being stronger, more honest, understanding and accepting of ea. other and less dysfunctional. i believe that's coming. I have accepted that carver wanted to tell his story his way....and i'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that this story will be an awesome one when it ends. if not, and it turns out I was wrong then i'll gladly suck it up and let you all know that you were right....but only if that happens... as of now, I don't have that many issues with show this season, and I actually loved it.....so i'll stand here alone in the wilderness or with a very few indulging in smores and a dvd playing stuffing my face and rewatching this season..I believe it's going to turn out great ;)

Cheryl, i'm with you, this is a three part story and we're heading towards the ending ....i too want the brother's back to the you and me against the world for the remainder of the series as well, especially since i believe we've got a few more years left in us.....;) and by chuck....let's get back to some light hearted funny broments....;)
E
# E 2014-07-05 11:53
I see where you are coming from nappi, but you are talking interpretation, and I am talking actual characterizatio n through scenes and dialog that are actually on the screen. A look or a supposition regarding Sam's past history that is not confirmed in any way on screen is not enough for me, and it's clearly not enough for a huge majority of fans as evidenced by how vilified Sam has been this past season. If the writing were adequate then more fans would have understood him. I am predisposed towards Sam as you are, and I still had trouble with what I was seeing. In this way, Sam got short shrift. The fact that you can see it and most other fans cannot is a testament to how much additional work you are willing to do for the sake of Sam as a character, because it was not on the screen, the words were not uttered, the dialog between Sam and other characters did not happen. For example, Dean got a heartfelt monologue to ghost Kevin, showing us through emotion and dialog how bad he felt about his role in Kevin's death. Well, where was Sam's monologue? He didn't get one. He was the actual person to do the killing, and HE didn't get to speak with ghost Kevin and show us how bad HE felt. Why is that, when Sam's views on the matter are more relevant than Deans? They even had Sam in a scene with Mrs.Tran; another opportunity in which he could have had a heartfelt conversation about how he was feeling, the killing, his nightmares, sorrow, etc... but the writers didn't give us that scene either. Why not especially considering that they had the set up right there? There is no balance in the writing IMO. You can interpret Sam's looks all you like, and if that works for you, great, But it doesn't work for me, and it's not that I want Sam to have more POV than Dean, Id' like him to have at least as much; at this point I'd even take HALF as much, which would seem like a boon given how little of Sam we've seen lately. IMO Sam was slighted both this year and last. I want DIALOG; I want scenes with other characters in which Sam reveals IN WORDS how he's feeling, what he wants (and I mean how HE'S feeling, not Dean's feelings (as in Sacrifice) or Cas's (as in First Born) or Amelia's (in every conversation that she and Sam had). We never have to "interpret" facial expressions where Dean is concerned, or even Cas or Crowley for that matter… so why can't they be more explicit for the other LEAD character in this show? Why is there no equality in this way? Name me one time in a recent episode in which Dean spoke in half sentences and Sam spent the next 7 episodes misunderstandin g what Dean said..punishing Dean because of this misunderstandin g? It never happens because Dean has dialog and his POV is clear.
lala2
# lala2 2014-07-05 18:28
E, I had the same discussion/argu ment w/someone on another board who claimed Jared just wasn't a good actor b/c we couldn't get everything from a look! As you pointed out, I argued that Jensen never has to rely on just his facial expressions to tell a story. He gets TONS of dialogue to express himself as should the other lead. Jared is the only one who has to rely on his facial expressions to tell his side of the story! It's ridiculous. NONE of the other actors have to do this b/c they ALL get dialogue

Is it that hard to write for Sam Winchester? I guess since it hasn't happened in ages, it must be!
E
# E 2014-07-05 19:21
Quote:
E, I had the same discussion/argument w/someone on another board who claimed Jared just wasn't a good actor b/c we couldn't get everything from a look!
Holy crap! Are you kidding me?! Well, I hope you set whomever straight! :P We get VOLUMES from Jared with just a look; that's part of the problem, he's so good at doing just that, that I think the writers figure that they don't HAVE to give him dialog because he'll managed to convey his side of the story anyway through nuance and gesture and facial expressions. He's a genius when it comes to non-verbal communication. But I for one, want to hear him speak; call me greedy, but I really do want to hear him speak, communicate and converse, with Dean, with Cas, Crowley, hell I'd take a conversation between Sam and his navel at this point if we could only get some dialog for the poor guy.
eilf
# eilf 2014-07-06 17:53
Quote:
hell I'd take a conversation between Sam and his navel at this point if we could only get some dialog for the poor guy.
:D:p Navel gazing with commentary! I love it!
E
# E 2014-07-06 19:08
It would probably also mean he's shirtless too. :):) yowza:D
eilf
# eilf 2014-07-06 19:35
and bendy
E
# E 2014-07-07 08:45
He IS bendy isn't he? It's hard to believe that such a big muscular guy could be so flexible… ahem… is it getting hot in here?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-07-05 12:01
Oh I'm in the wilderness with you. My point about Dean's hurt was that he didn't expect that level of anger from Sam. He knew that Sam would be angry but he also wasn't expecting for Zeke to turn into psycho-angel Gadreel and kill Kevin. I think that Dean had every intention of telling Sam at the hospital what he had done but that wasn't going to be possible. And all season the hole just kept getting deeper. When Dean confessed to Sam/Gad in the bunker I think that was the reaction he was expecting....Sa m would get mad punch him and be over it. Of course it all went to hell. Dean just didn't get the level of hurt from Sam. And my point that the show is told from Dean's POV I think that is why sometimes the dialogue in the two episodes gets misinterpreted. We see the shock and hurt and Dean's face so the dialogue is interpreted as Sam was cruel and insensitive and saying things that weren't true. That is why I said in those particular scenes I don't think the writers thought that Sam was going to come off so badly. And since the episodes are filmed far in advance to what is being aired there isn't much they can do to correct that.
I understand where E is coming from as well. We saw Sam continue to be there for Dean and come to his rescue over and over but we never saw how the possession or the killings (there was more than one) were affecting him. Other than that one line in the trailer park there wasn't much shown about how Sam was dealing with that. So for me the conversation in the trailer park and "I lied" while having impact could have had more impact if we saw Sam struggling with the possession.
But yes please the brothers united against evil would be nice for a change.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-07-05 13:36
For me, the worst part of ignoring Sam's feelings this season is that Dean's allowing Sam to be possessed has been made to be all about Kevin dying. It's like if Kevin hadn't died then Sam would have no right to be angry at Dean. Sam shouldn't be angry that he had an angel in him, seeing all of his thoughts, rooting around his memories, controlling his body. No, the only thing that counts is how it affected Kevin and Dean. That is erasing Sam from the story totally and it really sucks.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-07-05 15:34
I see your point. The one violation, among many that always struck me was the memory wipe since we know how Sam felt about that. I do really hope that next season Sam gets to say something about that. I was glad that he got to remember everything and yes I do agree it was too bad that we didn't get to see Sam struggle with all of that. Sam just being angry didn't explain enough about what he was going through even though we could all guess. As I said it would have made the conversation in the trailer park and the "I lied" have much more impact than it did. I have my own theory as to why the second half didn't gel as well as it should have but this probably isn't the thread for it. I'll look around and see it I can find an appropriate place for my own speculations.
E
# E 2014-07-05 19:13
Quote:
I was glad that he got to remember everything
Hi Again! Did Sam remember everything? I don't remember him remembering. I mean, I remember Crowley telling Sam "You've seen everything that he's seen" but I don't remember Sam displaying any knowledge that he had remembered everything or knew what Gadreel knew other than the death of Kevin. Maybe I am forgetting something, or uh.. not remembering or whatever. I wonder if I could use the word remember even more than I did? Heh.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-07-05 21:17
After Crowley told Sam to remember there was a short montage of the hospital, the cabin with Death and Dean/Gadreel, killing Abner and killing Kevin. I assume that Gadreel had wiped Sam's memory or had him tucked away during those events. So I took it to mean when Crowley said you've seen everything he's seen that meant everything. And yes we should have seen Sam struggle with that more. It would have made the finale much more powerful.
I just watched The Magnificent Seven and at the end of the episode Sam tells Dean he was selfish for making the deal. In that episode Dean smiled, joked and told Sam he was alright with that. Since I wasn't a fan then was there a backlash against Sam at that time? I'm curious if the difference this time is that Dean didn't joke about it or brush it off and Sam didn't just stand there and look sad.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-07-05 22:07
Fan reaction to Sam really turned after season four. Because season four was so entrenched in Dean's POV while Sam's story was "told in the background" as per Eric Kripke, fandom was pretty solidly anti-Sam and pro-Dean. Having the angels be on Dean's side didn't help. Yes, they were dicks, except inborn assumptions about angels are hard to overcome. Plus Castiel was a hit, so suddenly he was showing all the conflicted feelings that were not being shown with Sam. Then season five rolled around and Sam was still not given the kind of insight into his mindset. The only time he talked about why he went with Ruby was in Fallen Idols, which was one of the weakest episodes of the season. It's best remembered as the Paris Hilton episode. It was written by Julie Siege who, according to SuperWiki only wrote 7 episodes total of Supernatural. So the one time Sam was given dialog explaining himself it was not in the hands of Kripke or Gamble or writers who had been with the show a long time and who had a handle on Sam's character. She had Sam make a really valid point, that the relationship didn't just breakdown over Sam's actions, but Dean's as well, but those who were predisposed to not like Sam labeled it Dean blaming and hated Sam more.

Basically season three Sam was accepted as an equal character with legitimate and understandable feelings. Sam during and after season four could do nothing right in the eyes of many. So there wasn't the backlash against Sam in season three that there has been since.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-07-05 23:29
I know that S4 and 5 were considered the epic story telling and conclusion of EK's arc but honestly for me I was glad it was over and we moved on to S6. SS was a breath of fresh air for me. I noticed that Sam was identified with demons and Dean with Angels and with a wonderful angel at that. Even though I wasn't involved with any fansites then I was uncomfortable about what was happening with my favorite character. I never lost my love for Sam but they sure pushed him down a rabbit hole. I guess that is why the last seasons haven't bothered me as much because nothing could ever top having him kill and drink the blood of an innocent nurse no matter how manipulated he was. I know this doesn't have much to do with the current conversation but even though the story telling and writing isn't as strong the conflicts aren't as devastating as they were then.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-07-06 06:47
Quote:
the blood of an innocent nurse
lol
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-07-08 10:51
DEAN [softly]

You know, Sam, I saved your hide back there. And I saved your hide at that church... And the hospital. I may not think things all the way through. Okay? But what I do, I do because it's the right thing. I'd do it again.



SAM

And that... is the problem. You think you're my savior, my brother, the hero. You swoop in, and even when you mess up, you think what you're doing is worth it because you've convinced yourself you're doing more good than bad... But you're not.

[DEAN's blank eyes stare at him]

I mean, Kevin's dead, Crowley's in the wind. We're no closer to beating this angel thing. Please tell me, what is the upside of me being alive?



DEAN [shocked]

You kidding me? You and me -- fighting the good fight together.



SAM [sighing in frustration almost leaves but then decides to explain. He come into the kitchen and sits down across from DEAN, who draws back unconsciously]

Okay. Just once, be honest with me. You didn't save me for me. You did it for you.



DEAN [totally confused]

What are you talkin' about?



SAM

I was ready to die. I was ready. I should have died, but you... You didn't want to be alone, and that's what all this boils down to. You can't stand the thought of being alone.



DEAN [drawing back and standing up]

All right.



SAM

I'll give you this much. You are certainly willing to do the sacrificing as long as you're not the one being hurt.



DEAN

All right, you want to be honest? If the situation were reversed and I was dying, you'd do the same thing.



SAM [very softly]

No, Dean. I wouldn't.

[He looks up and meets DEAN's shocked eyes.]

Same circumstances.. .I wouldn't. I'm gonna get to bed.

this is the conversation from the purge. the words used in this dialogue are very important.

dean said to sam that if he was dying sam would do the same thing.... the same thing...indicating that sam would have called on an angel, had dean possessed by trickery, lied to him about it all knowing that dean had wanted to die, was ready for it and would never in a million years want to be saved by possession as he was abhorrently against it. dean didn't use in this conversation the words "save me". he didn't say that if he was dying that sam would save him too. I believe that the writer did in fact choose his words quite carefully.

so sam's reply that he wouldn't do the same thing means that he wouldn't take the same actions dean did to save sam. that doesn't mean sam wouldn't have taken different actions.

if it was dean dying and sam had called on an angel to help save dean and then went in dean's head and heard dean say he was ready to go, that he didn't want to be brought back....there is no doubt in my mind that sam would never have gone through with it. this actually is canon, sam honors dean's wishes, no matter how much it hurts sam to do it, because he loves him that much.

in no where in this conversation did sam say that he wouldn't save dean. he said in the same circumstances, , he wouldn't do the same thing....sam was ready to die, he said it, he should've died, he made peace with it and was going out on his own terms, the last decision he made and it was the choice was taken away from him, but not through honesty, through deception, and by means at which sam would never agree to. so dean makes the decision for sam knowing it goes against everything sam would ever want. the result of this action, body violation, mind violation, lies, and death of innocents by sam's hand.

dean declares he did the right thing. sam feels differently. he doesn't see it as the right thing because the result of dean 's actions caused nothing but pain and death. i agree percy that sam should've brought up the violation of his mind and body in this speech, but i felt that it was implied as well when sam said he wouldn't do the same thing in the same circumstances, that he would never violate his brother and go against his wishes as we've seen to be so in the past. even sam making the point that dean did what he did for him because he didn't want to be alone, which is in fact true, though not dean's only reason, i felt that sam was hurting from everything and not just kevin's death. though i think because kevin's death weighs heavy on sam's mind, this burden he now carries, i think that the violation part of what dean did is more in the back of his head, but i do hope as cheryl does, that sam brings that point up in s10. or at the very least, once dean comes back to human status he's realize for himself the true violation to sam's body. still holding out that with regard to this issue, it's not over yet...

i didn't find anything sam said here to be cruel. i could feel is anger and frustration at dean's total disregard to sam's feelings. when dean said he'd do it again...knowing the end result...being all self righteous and thinking only of himself , well it was totally understandable that sam would tell him no...that same circumstances he would not do the same thing....but no where did he say he wouldn't save him.

i wonder...had sam ignored dean's wishes regarding using doc benton's immortal formula and while dean was asleep or had sam knocked dean out and used the book anyway, keeping dean alive but in a way that was against everything dean believed in , against the very fiber of his being, becoming the one thing he never wanted, what do you suppose dean's reaction would've been to sam once he found out what sam had done. sam wouldn't have told dean of course and when dean didn't become a hellhound chew toy he would've wondered why. let's say sam gives him some acceptable reason that dean would go with...but months and months later dean finds out the truth....he's devastated by what sam has done. he didn't want this. he'd have rather gone to hell, but sam had to save him. and dean responds to sam with something is broken here. i can't trust you the way i should be able to and let's say sam's response to that was..."it's ok, because we're family", thus dismissing everything dean is feeling. sam simply wants to move on and put a few wins in the win column... how do you suppose dean would have reacted to sam had he done that? what if dean lays it out for sam and tells him he didn't want that. he'd have rather gone to hell than live as a monster...and sam replies, i saved your life there , i may not have thought things through, but i did the right thing....and if situation was reversed you'd do the same.....how would dean react then? how would the fans?

I keep going over that speech and I really do understand where sam is coming from. he asks dean what the upside of him being alive is and dean's reply....you kidding me? me and you fighting the good fight....right there, I can see why sam told dean he saved him for him and not sam, because dean doesn't want to be alone. dean's response to sam was never about sam. it was about dean and what dean wants which is them fighting the good fight and hunting....I just think that the entire conversation of the purge would've gone down differently if dean responded with two words....

when sam asks dean what the upside to him being alive is...instead of making it about him and how he believes things should be...he should have said....

you kidding me, it's because you matter.
I believe these two simple words would've made sam believe that dean had done it for him and not because dean doesn't want to be alone.
LoveMyCas87
# LoveMyCas87 2014-05-21 14:29
1. What do you think will happen now with Demon Dean and HumanSam? What of the brotherhood? (and btw, who didn’t see that coming?) I totally saw DemonDean coming, but I thought it would have happened a little differently. I thought Dean was going to kill Metatron and in doing so, he would become a demon. (Because I was thinking after he killed X amount of people he would become demonized.) But Sam finally realized how it feels to be Dean and lose your brother in your arms and feel the need to save him..(I know it's happened before but I mean current Sam realized this)..I think their brotherhood is exactly what is going to save Dean.

2. Now that Castiel wants to be an angel but not a leader, what do we think will happen to heaven? Honestly, I thought they were gonna throw God into the mix because they kept mentioning him last night. Maybe he will be back next season?(and by back I mean Chuck will come back and finally tell Dean and Sam that he's God.)

3. What will Sam’s reaction be to the new TeamCagedHell, Crowley and Dean? I'm shipping it. HARD. I'm gonna call it "Moonhowlers". Join me at port. We set sail tomorrow. I think Sam's gonna be pissed.. He's going to know that Crowley knew something and just never told them. Sam's smart he'll figure out it was Crowley's plan. I, by the way, LOVE Dean/Crowley. Mark Sheppard and Jensen Ackles knock it out of the park with every scene. I think Crowley wants Dean to be his right hand man, and it will work and Crowley and Dean will be the Big Bad's next season or Crowley regrets it because he can't control Dean, because he's friggin Dean Winchester and he doesn't get told what to do, he does what he wants and tells everyone else what to do. Because buddy, he's the best. :)

4. Will Cain have to come back? Are there now two Cains in the world? I do believe Cain will come back. So Dean can fulfill his promise and kill him, or Sam will seek him out to find out more what's in store for Dean. But I think Dean is like Cain but he'll be a little different, because he's Dean freakin Winchester.

5. Who will be next season’s big bad? I'm thinking it's gonna be Dean and Crowley, at least for the first half. Then I think the second half of the season Metatron will escape and hopefully Dean's cured, so they won't have The First Blade to kill him, and God will finally come back and kill/punish Metatron.

6. How did you feel about the emotional Sam/Dean moments? I loved that Sam told Dean how he feels, and then "I'm proud of us" got me all teary...then Sam's crying did me in.

7. Who likes Hannah and wants her not to die? Eh...I'm really not a fan of any angel we aren't given a lot of information about or see how they feel about certain situations. I miss Gabe...and now I miss Gadreel. If they brought Gabe and Gadreel back in to work with Castiel I would be all set. Those three angels are the only ones I need. (Unless they get Michael and Lucifer out of the cage, how can you not love them too?)

8. WHO DIDN’T CRY? IF YOU DIDN’T CRY YOU ARE SOULLESS.Not full on sobs, but I defintely teared up and had a couple escape.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-21 15:22
Well I definitely fell into the I loved it category. I don't think the shocking part was that Dean turned into a demon, that was telegraphed from the moment Dean got the MOC. I think the shocking part was Crowley coming to collect his prize. By the way Crowley can never die, Mark Shepard man what a scene. When Dean opened his eyes there was no humanity looking back out. So what is Dean going to be? A demon yes but a newly born demon that can be manipulated by Crowley into whatever he wants or needs? Is any of Dean going to be left? Is he trapped helpless in his body as watches himself commit atrocities? I thought that was the foreshadowing when Sam brought up how it feels to see in his mind his hands on Kevin burning him alive. This is the awful lesson that Dean needed to learn. Some things are worse than death. And Sam sitting alone drinking in the bunker his dead brother lying in his room. Sam's resolve to save Dean no matter what the price. We all knew he would do that. What is he going to think when Crowley doesn't come and Dean has vanished. The scenes between Jared and Jensen were powerful as always. I've watched that scene of Sam gently placing Dean on his bed 10 times already. Makes me cry every time.
I loved the redemption of Gadreel. His first scene with Dean in the parking garage when he professed his loyalty to Dean=humanity and Cas=his brother was who he truly was. I loved the double cross of Cas and Gad on Metatron. And now how does Cas get his grace back. Evidently without it he will die. And now he knows Dean is dead. I see a road trip with Sam and Cas to find Cain.
I believe the demon Dean story line will come to a head in the 200th episode (please Jeremy Carver please write this one). I can't wait to hear what the guys have to say at the upcoming conventions. So Oct 14! Meantime a summer rewatch.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-05-21 16:54
Okay, two things, which might make me feel slightly more hopeful about season 10, and might lead me to reword part of my earlier comment.

1. Sam didn't make a deal. He summoned Crowley, but that was it. Sam declared 'You will get him out. Or so help me God'. That doesn't sound as if he was going to give Crowley a choice, and if you're making a deal the dealer has a choice to deal with you or not. Crowley said that Sam was 'summoning me as we speak, make a deal, bring you back'. Crowley might have believed that Sam was summoning him in order to make a deal, but Sam didn't the last time he believed Dean was dead. Sam didn't even summon Crowley then so why is it 'expected' now? On an aside, I've never seen matches struck that way before, with your thumb going towards the sparkly scratchy bit. That's just wrong, and potentially really painful if you caught your nail on it.

2. I don't believe Sam's 'I lied' referred to the infamous (and often misquoted....) 'same circumstances' speech of way back when, but to the earlier speech in 9.23 outside the trailers about being okay with going ahead 'no matter the consequences'. Obviously he's going to try and prevent Dean's death, he's not going to just leave him there to die but again, shove an angel in him? I don't think so. You know, I think this might be one of the few times I'm grateful for Sam's ambiguous statements!

Maturity is still on the cards., people Thank the stars!

On another, much more important (and hot), aside......... Is Sam going grey?? Omigod, Crowley is going to have a 6'5" greying Moose on his ass all next season. That's a damn good reason to watch.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-05-21 17:02
i didn't notice sam's hair color....but if sam (not jared) is showing gray, could it have something to do with the angel grace i still think is left inside of him? is it a reference somehow to gandalf the gray? is sam indeed a wizard? :D ok maybe not a wizard....but there is that comment floating out there still about sam's angel thing being layered....mayb e something will come into play?:o
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-21 18:21
Tim - yes, I was also under the impression that Sam wasn't making a deal, but was going to force Crowley to fix it. Also in agreement on #2. And because of the whitewashing of Sam's possession, and any consequences for said possession, and Dean knocking Sam out, even though they're supposed to be a team, I'm a little more pessimistic on the maturity front, but sure hope you're right.
Daisymae
# Daisymae 2014-05-21 17:37
Can't Find My Way Home is Eric Clapton and Steve Winwood. Yes, I hope to see Hannah next year. Cass, Hannah shipping? As for Dean, I have no idea what the writers have in mind. Will he be totally evil or only partial. Caine was evil until he found love and Dean has that in his brother. Also, Crowley isn't totally evil anymore and I wonder if he kind of likes Dean. Or dean could be a rival for King of Hell. So many possibilities. And poor Sam having a brother who is now a Demon will be devastated for sure.
Daisymae
# Daisymae 2014-05-21 17:51
Do you Believe in Miracles actually refers to Crowley getting his wish of a Winchester turning evil. Very deceptive the Carver. You psyched us out.
Daisymae
# Daisymae 2014-05-21 17:53
Do you Believe in Miracles actually refers to Crowley getting his wish of a Winchester turning evil. Very deceptive the Carver. You psyched us out
lacysos
# lacysos 2014-05-21 18:02
Ditto what Tim the Enchanter & NJSPNFan said.

I've been expecting demon Dean since he took the mark. Based on the promo I expected Dean to get his butt whipped by Metatron. I did not cry when Dean was stabbed but did cry when Sam cried.

Team Free Will was always a joke because it's always been a dictatorship. Dean in charge, always!!! And it is for this reason I have no sympathy for him. Taking the mark was his choice, his free will. It was another rash decision he made ignoring Cain's warning. When Sam and Cas made decisions, however well intended, that went south they paid the price. I wish I had faith in the SPN writers to drive this lesson home, but I don't because this is Dean.

Agree they totally whitewashed the possession thing with Sam. But we did learn after 13 episodes that Sam is having Kevin nightmares.

I enjoyed this episode far more than the previous five, but that's not saying much. Undecided about S10.
kaj
# kaj 2014-05-21 18:31
Awesome!!! Dean becomes a Demon, YES!!! I've waited 9 years since Skin first graced my TV screen.

Welcome Demon!Dean let me be your first follower. *cackling madly*

I've been wishing that I will get to see Dean turns very dark and I get my wish. I see the potential of how awesome Jensen playing dark Dean in Skin (by the way it's my fav episode of all time). In Skin Jensen knocked it out of the park, hell out of the continent. Looking forward to what will he do in S10. I have read many fanfiction depicting DemonDean. Lot's of theory, scenarios play out written by amateur writers. So, I really am looking forward to what Carver and Team will do with this storyline. Right now, I can't stop smiling. I teared up when he died but glad that the Mark won't let him stay dead.

Is it mean, the Mark has summoned Dean's soul from hell? And since it's been corrupted by the evil of the Mark he becomes a Demon? So, the theory is true that you must die first to be a demon. In Hell human's soul are forced to torture and takes pleasure in it. They shed their humanity in every soul they tortured until their soul becomes black as tar and no humanity left. But in the MoC case, Dean and Cain's soul is being corrupted by the killings while they still alive. It's a special case because there's only one First Blade.

Foreshadowing : Abaddon said in 9.02 that Dean will be the perfect vessel. Dean's body is designed to hold Michael. It means it's strong enough to hold any angel and consequently any Demon. That means in theory his body will be strong enough to house the Mark's power. But Dean's human soul keeps warring with what the Mark's want. That's what burdens Dean's physical body. His body can't take the two warring forces (MoC power and his human soul's pure consciousness) so the Mark has to get rid of the human soul or turns it completely into a demon to get free reign of the body. In order to do that the soul has to descent to body has to die first. When Dean's human soul let go of it's hold of his body, the Mark takes over.

Now, the question is did dean's soul really descent to hell before it summoned back into his body by the mark? Or the soul stays inside Dean's body but since it's become inactive (because it has severed it's connection to the body when Dean dies) the Mark is able to completely turns the soul into a demon and reawaken it again?

I think it's the later.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2014-05-21 18:39
KAJ, I have been waiting for you to comment for 2 days. ok ok 1. ;)
kaj
# kaj 2014-05-21 18:55
Just want to add.I think Carver and team has plan it well. All of the angst, the cruelness of Dean, the violence, all leading up to this. Who said they didn't have a plan. They do have a plan. They plan to turn Dean a demon all along. Dean's violence is amped up ever since he returned from Purgatory last year. He's become callous with everyone's feelings, even more so that the usual. He has become a jerk, a dick, tricking Sam many times, all leading up to this finale. They need to have a demon big bad that Dean needs killing in S9, so they created Abaddon in S8. They created a so called powerful and only one left Knight of Hell to make her the Demonic big bad in S9. So that Dean has a reason to take on the Mark of Cain, to kill Abaddon. But Dean will not take the Mark just like that. He will have to be in a bad place, in a very down low and not in the sound company of Sam because Sam will oppose to him taking the Mark. So, they created the plot of closing Hell Gate with Sam taking on the trial then has to die then Dean has to desperately save Sam and use an Angel to possess him which then resulting in the brother's rift even more wider than S8. They need to get Sam and Dean separated and not in good terms to be able to write a downward spiraling Dean believable. So that when Dean take on the Mark (with Crowley's persuasion) it will be natural.

Everything that happens in S8 is a buildup to this. The curing Demon ritual, Abaddon as the new potential big bad, the introducing of Knight of Hell story, the way Dean said that Purgatory felt pure. Come on, fighting for your life 24/7 feels pure? Only Dean Winchester who said that because he enjoys killing without repercussion. It's foreshadowing of him taking on the Mark and ultimately becomes a demon and a true killer.

They have a plan and I'm sure they have a plan for S10. We just haven't see it now.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-05-21 19:55
i wonder if the plan has been even further down the line than s8. carver has been with sn since s3. he was part of the story line that sent dean to hell. remember what alistair told dean....he left a piece of himself back in hell. what if that piece of dean was part of his soul and this part of him has been in hell for quite awhile now, perhaps long enough to start to twist into a demon. crowley said dean was worthy of the mark. maybe it had more to do with the fact that there was a piece of dean still in hell. crowley, king of manipulation... .let's say crowley knew what would happen to dean once he received the mark. crowley is the one who led dean straight to cain in the first place ensuring dean take on the moc. maybe crowley knew that death was in the cards for dean all along. so when dean died moc and blade in hand, maybe crowely knew dean would be reunited with the part of him that was left behind in hell....if that's the case then wouldn't dean be possessed by a demon, even though it's his own self?
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-22 06:58
Kripke had planned to have Sam go dark side in S3, and have Dean save him, but that changed because of the writers strike and shortened season. So Carver has basically lifted this from the original S3 game plan. So much for originality; I guess we'll see how it goes.
Gwen
# Gwen 2014-05-21 19:55
Count me in with those who didn't cry. Only Swan Song has reduced me to a blubbery, snivelling mess. I have never been able to re-watch SS but this episode I will be able to re-watch. Nor was I shocked by Dean being a demon, that outcome has been obvious for ages now. I enjoyed the episode okay enough but I wasn't completely blown away. Not like I was by Sacrifice. By far the best parts for me were the Sam and Dean scenes.

The Good.
Adored the Sam and Dean scenes. It was SO good to get some nice brotherly moments at long last. Shame we didn't get more of them but I'll take what we get given. We've been too starved of them this year. Dean's 'I'm proud of us' and his hand on Sam's face and Sam's devastated sobs as Dean died in his arms ripped my heart to shreds. As did Sam laying Dean on his bed and his red rimmed eyes as he looked on his brother's body. Oh Jared, you do the angst so wonderfully, beautifully well.
J2 are just amazing. As with every episode they made the finale for me. They are why I was addicted to SPN halfway into The Pilot all those years ago and they are the reason why, despite the fact that I have not really enjoyed S9 all that much, I'll no doubt be back for S10.

I was happy (and rather surprised as I'd given up hope of getting any Sam POV this year) to finally finally get some Sam POV. At last we heard a bit about Kevin and the nightmares poor Sam still has about his death and we actually got a smidgen about the possession. A miracle indeed. It is nowhere near enough but I'll take these few crumbs for now. The lack of Sam POV has been worse than ever this year. I'm hoping more about the possession will come up in S10. If Dean is still in there, trapped in his body and doing awful things then he'll be certainly walking a mile or two in Sam's shoes.

As always I loved Crowley.

LOVED the Can't Find My Way Home song at the end...absolutel y perfect. That did actually bring a little lump to my throat.

The Not So Good.

I'm sorry but the angels, the angel wars, Metatron...I am just so incredibly bored with it all. Metatron waffled on and on and on and then on some more. In the end I was just tuning him out. Please let that be an end to Metatron, leave him in that cell. All the angel stuff in the episode just left me rather underwhelmed.

I'm not that much of an angel fan but I was surprised to find myself quite gutted that Gadreel was killed off. I would have liked to see more of him on the show. I would have loved him and Sam to have a few scenes together, Gadreel knows everything that's gone on in Sam's heart and mind, it could have led to some nice Sam insight scenes. He could have been someone for Sam to connect to.

Have to admit it's quite a relief to have gotten to the end of the season. It's been too hard going for me what with the constant brother conflict, with the angel storylines failing to grab my interest and especially the complete lack of anything for Sam so I'm kind of looking forward to a few months breather from Show. Though I am quite intrigued to see what happens in S10. It will be interesting to see Demon!Dean and how that story unfolds. I'm very much hoping for some good stuff for Sam as he tries to save his brother. Will we get some S3 levels of Sam POV as he tries to save Dean? I live in hope. :) Oh...whilst I've got my fingers crossed...and, please, please, please let Sam be the one to save Dean.

ETA - Ooops...my post seems to have been posted in two places in this thread. I have tried to delete one of them but when I do, they both disappear. Sorry.
LEAH
# LEAH 2014-05-21 20:12
Quoting E "they don't have the guts to make their favorite be mean or unlikable". I don't know, they have doing a pretty good job of it last season and this season. And from many of the comments here, the whole series. I don't know why I haven't ever seen Sam as unsympathetic, I just never have. I've always seen his POV even if it wasn't made clear in the writing. But I understand your frustration. Sorry E.
amyh
# amyh 2014-05-21 20:39
1. What do you think will happen now with Demon Dean and HumanSam? What of the brotherhood? (and btw, who didn’t see that coming?)
The brotherhood began the season with the lie "You and Me, come whatever" to the truth of "Its not your fight." And Sam getting knocked out. I'd love for Sam to repeat those words back at Dean when he's spouting a line about how its never right unless Sam is next to him. I hope Dean is a demon for a good long time and Sam gets to partner up with others during that time...maybe forge a bond with them. Find out what a real partnership and brotherhood is.

2. Now that Castiel wants to be an angel but not a leader, what do we think will happen to heaven? Cas isn't a leader and im glad he finally realized he's out of his depth. Although I can see him on a council with Hannah (Cas has genuiine compassion and empathy) and maybe another angel or two if any show any intellegence next season.

3. What will Sam’s reaction be to the new TeamCagedHell, Crowley and Dean? I'm shipping it. HARD. I'm gonna call it "Moonhowlers". Join me at port. We set sail tomorrow. I geuss it depends on how the writers want the story and plot to go.....and will use Sam accordingly no matter how OOC it is. Though like i said above, I;d like to see Sam neeed to partner up with someone, someone he bonds with and becomes brothers with.

4. Will Cain have to come back? Are there now two Cains in the world? There is one Cain and one Dean. I would like to see Sam and Cain in some scenes together.

5. Who will be next season’s big bad? There will be no Big Bad. The writers will pretedn Dean is but then they will whitewash everything so that what Deans does will be later portrayed as wonderfukla dn pure and good.

6. How did you feel about the emotional Sam/Dean moments? I honestly didn't feel anything except to roll my eyes. Dean brought this on himself because he refused to have an adult conversation with his adult brother. Then failerd to listen to critically need to know information regarding the blade/mark. THEN he continued to trust a demon over his brother.

7. Who likes Hannah and wants her not to die? (raises hand) Raises hand. She's intellegent. She's compassonate and willing to listen to reason. Hannah WANTED Gad and Cas to convince her about Metranon. She's a keeper. Someoen I could get behind and trust.

8. WHO DIDN’T CRY? IF YOU DIDN’T CRY YOU ARE SOULLESS. Just saying. Didn't Cry....not souless. Sam simply wasn't given enought POV; he wasn't shown fighting tooth and nail for his brother. He wasn't given a critical dialogue with cas about understanding where Dean is; feeling lost in how to help/get through to his brother. How do you sympathise with someone who continues to bend over for every supernatural being? All i could think of was Deans plea tgo Sam just before he was killed in S3. How they need to stop benidng over for every evil son of a bitch. ANd PLEASE tell me what Dean is proud of cause I honestly dont know. Is it that once again one of them let evil manipulate them into doing something heinous? Is he proud that he choose a demon over his brother?
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-05-21 21:55
Amen, amyh to #8.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2014-05-21 20:51
I don't believe this shit. REVOLUTION just had the same damned ending. :(
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2014-05-21 21:55
I don't know who it is but CARVER/KRIPKE have some real DADDY ISSUES that they are working on. EVERY SHOW right guys. BROTHERS AND FATHERS. sheesh.
PSG
# PSG 2014-07-03 22:42
Nappi, Sam said what he did to drive Dean away. He twisted things to make his words hurt which was why he said something different every week. He used his words as a weapon when he saw that dean was already contrite and hurting. It's teenage behavior but in a man of that intelligence and age it strikes many as psychological abuse. If Dean were like SamSam he will be telling his brother that it is all Sam's fault hes's a demon. Who knows? Maybe Demonic Dean will borrow that one of Sam's favorite plays. For me and mant others that rant was the proverbial straw. Those words mean no redemption for the character. Those words mean that Sam couldn't save dean. You remember Dean running away, by the way a first since it's typically the manchild Sammy that runs away; I remember Sam slamming the door and refusing to deal with it on any level except laying blame.

As far as the writers were concerned sam's behavior drove Dean to his actions. That is the way the season was structured. The point was for Sam to overreact and drive dean away so without his connection to family he would fall. The point was never that Dean was wrong and Sam deserves to yell. The pount was dean will save sam and sam will blame dean and dean will falter when sam witholds his love.

Thoughtful reply Alice. Of course it's the writing. And yes I get that Sam was hurt because Dean had lied. As the little brother left out in the early tears from hunting he wants to feel that Dean thinks he's capable and that Dean trusts him. Leaving out information or flat out lying brings out the worst in Sam. Dean of course was only being the protective big brother and protecting sam in the manner that John taught him decades ago. This is part of the core of the dysfunction.

For me the issue is rhe emotions that drive the brothers. Dean is driven by love; his love has driven his plots since the pilot. He also has darkness; evidenced as both as self hatred and the capacity for violence. The two mesh when he sees himself as poison and a killer, nothing more.

Sam has been driven by revenge and regret. Revenge drove him to hurt Dean and regret drove him to take on the Trials before his brother used them as a suicide mission.
It's definitely the writing. Given the repetition of themes in seasons 8-9 as well as the callback to earlier plotting,

I feel certain that they have been hammering these core differences in the characters. They are deliberately writing Sam as unsympathetic something even Jared has noted. I think we are meant to remember Dean's speech and Sam's big mistake as we see Dean's. In First Born Castiel reiterates that nobody has made more mistakes than he and Sam; Cas therefore treats Dean with compassion and understanding of course cas doesn't have the same core insecurities and anger issues that Sam does. At the same time the writers are presenting us with the comparisons..

The dysfunction has lead us to demonic Dean.
It's a game changer.
I hope it puts an end to their family dynamic of resentful little brother and hard but loving older brother.

As we discussed offline I am far more interested in understanding why Metatron's actions in Miracles were to lead Dean to him for the final showdown. Why Metatron veritable came alive when he stabbed Dean. Why this endgame was more important than the angel tablet which he lost as a result.

Furthermore the writing at the end of 8 set Dean and Metatron on parallel trajectories, so much so that I predicted their face off last summer and again after the midseason episode. Seriously. Why else target cas, target Gadreel and by default Sam and kill little brother Kevin, if not to get Dean Winchester's interest. And he kept at it by making cas his "nemesis" and framing cas and turning all angeldom against cas. Why did the writers set this up, foreshadowed by Naomi, and why does Metatron want Dean dead. Is it more than the story?
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-07-04 06:39
(Note From Alice - This post was pulled for a day so I could carefully review it. Since this is Let's Speculate, I'll restore most of it, but I didn't like the tone of disrespect in various spots and edited those. Try to focus on the post at hand and leave personal jabs at the poster and other fans out of it).

What exactly did Sam ‘twist’ to drive Dean away? Sam didn’t say enough for anything to be twisted. He was pissed that Dean lied, and he was right to be. (Edited) Sam told Dean that, in the same circumstances, he wouldn’t do the same thing that Dean did. He told him that everything that had gone wrong between them was because they were family. He didn’t blame it solely on Dean. He said ‘us’ and ‘we’ ie Sam and Dean; shared responsibility. What’s to be twisted there? Hell, if Sam wanted to drive Dean away then he’d have just pulled a ‘first half of season eight Dean’ on Dean and remind him, at every opportunity, of how much Dean fucked up, how much he let Sam down, how Kevin’s death was all his fault, how much he couldn’t be trusted. He’d tell Dean that some passing acquaintance was more of a brother to him than Dean had ever been. He’d keep secrets from him and constantly dismiss his concerns. (Isn’t it remarkable the difference between the two brothers? Dean says all this and still Sam stays and tries to make things right. Sam gives Dean a choice ‘if you want to be brothers’, he shares blame for the broken relationship with Dean, and this act of magnanimousness is what ‘drives Dean away’. Jeez, I’d hate to see how Dean would react if Sam treated Dean like Dean treated Sam!) Or he’d just order him out of the bunker. Sam didn’t do any of that. On the contrary, Sam refused to allow himself to be pushed away, which is what Dean was trying to do. It’s the same thing Sam did immediately after he expelled Gadreel, he refused to allow Dean to believe he was ‘poison’.

And Dean most certainly was not ‘contrite’. On the contrary, he was full of self-righteousn ess and self-justificat ion, telling Sam that he did the right thing and that he’d do the same thing again. No contriteness there. At no stage was Dean contrite to Sam about what he did. At no stage did he apologise or try to make amends despite knowing how much he hurt Sam. Instead, he wanted to just continue on as they always had, almost as if it had never happened. (I often wonder if Ezekiel left as soon as Sam was healed, if Dean would have told Sam at all. Somehow, I doubt it.) Dean knows the relationship is broken, he said that but he has no intention of fixing it. He just wants to ignore it, same old same old and fall back into their ‘Driver picks the music, shotgun shuts his cakehole’ routine (and if that doesn’t sum up their relationship I don’t know what does!) and Dean always drives.

Sam would never tell Dean that it’s his fault Dean is a demon (I can see the reverse though, and Dean blaming Sam for it. He did, after all, blame the Apocalypse solely on him, despite Dean breaking the same number of seals that Sam did), though it is solely Dean’s fault that he is a demon. One of the last things Sam said to Dean before he took on the MoC was to not go leaving thinking that was the problem (that he was ‘poison’). Next episode (an episode where Sam and Dean were not together at all), Dean took on the MoC. As much as some viewers will try, Dean’s actions here cannot be put on Sam. It was all Dean; Dean’s stupidity, Dean’s recklessness, Dean’s arrogance, Dean’s lack of respect and trust in his brother, Dean's lies, Dean’s inability to accept the fact that he did Sam a wrong and try and make amends for it and Dean’s inability to think about the consequences. Sam didn’t ‘drive him’ to anything.

(Paragraph removed, this read like it was insulting Dean fans)

Also, please point out where Sam has laid ‘blame’.

The season was ‘structured’ so that Dean took the MoC independently of Sam. That ‘proverbial straw’ ‘rant’ didn’t come until after Dean had taken on the MoC so it’s less that ‘as far as the writers are concerned’ and more some fans going ‘Well, this can’t be Dean’s fault so let’s blame it on Sam’. However, the chronology of the episodes says otherwise. Now, that being said, there’s every chance the writers will change it next season so that Sam made Dean take on the MoC. These are, after all, the writers who changed the characters ages so that Dean could get his woob on so changing the chronology of the episodes shouldn’t be a big deal for them. Thank heavens the season 9 DVD’s will be there to remind all that nope, Sam didn’t make Dean do this. Hell, nobody makes Dean do anything. Dean drives the action on the show, he always has.

Sam never blamed Dean for taking on the MoC, he never got on his case about taking on the MoC. Compare this to how Dean reacted to Sam drinking demon blood.

And what exactly did Dean ‘save Sam’ from, heaven, peace, rest? By bringing Sam back, Dean didn’t save him from anything. Instead, he condemned him more. Why? Because, similar to season 2, Dean can’t do without Sam. Take a look at both those speeches, the one at the end of season 2 and the one at the end of season 8. In neither of those speeches does Dean express his love for Sam. In neither of those speeches does Dean say anything positive about Sam, about how much Sam has to offer, how worthwhile Sam is. Instead, both those speeches are about Dean and how much he ‘sacrifices’ for Sam (though how can it be considered a sacrifice if Sam doesn’t want it?), how Sam is his ‘job’, his ‘responsibility ’ etc. There was no talk of love. Hell, there was no talk of Sam, full stop. In any of the three situations (making the deal, not closing the gates of hell, the possession) Dean wasn’t driven by his love for Sam. If he was then he’d think about doing what is best for Sam, not what Dean wants.

And if Sam refusing to automatically forgive and forget what Dean did constitutes ‘withholding love’, then going by your logic, Dean has been withholding love from Sam since season 4, considering that we saw last season, he hasn’t forgiven a damn thing that Sam did, despite the huge lengths Sam went to in order to atone. Though the whole idea that Dean will ‘falter’ if Sam ‘withholds his love’ is a most pathetic assessment of Dean and his motivations and it really shows just how much of a child he is. First of all, love is not something you can just switch on and off. Dean should know that. He spends most of his time being pissed at Sam so does he just switch off love then? He has turned his back on his brother on numerous occasions; did he automatically stop loving his brother then? Secondly, the idea that Dean will ‘falter’ if Sam ‘withholds his love’ (ie reacts in a way that Dean is not agreeable with) is ridiculous because it brings about the idea that everything Dean does he does with Sam’s best interests at heart. The show is now pretty much driven by the fact that Dean does not do what Sam wants him to do; that’s what causes the conflict in the show, not the monsters. If he had Sam’s best interests at heart, they’d have gotten out of hunting years ago, he’d have left him dead in Cold Oak, he’d have told Sam about Benny in the first place, he’d think about what Sam wants and not just cut him down when what Sam wants is different to what Dean wants.

Quote:
Dean of course was only being the protective big brother and protecting sam in the manner that John taught him decades ago. This is part of the core of the dysfunction.
This is actually part of the core of the whitewash. John has been dead for eight seasons now so heavens knows how many years he has been gone. The viewers at some stage will have to accept the fact that Dean is a grown man and so he, and not his father, is responsible for the decisions that he makes. Dean has learned many hard lessons over the years, but he fails to take those lessons on board. Add to that, Dean knows what Sam wants and does not want so ‘protecting Sam in the manner John taught him decades ago’ can’t be used to handwave off Dean’s behaviour any longer. It can be used to understand why Dean did what he did in the past, but it still doesn’t excuse what he did. And the past was a long time ago, there have been many lessons learned since then. Dean is nearing 40. It’s about time he took some responsibility for his own actions, and stop blaming them on what his father said decades ago when they were both children, and Sam was physically unable to protect himself. (Add to that, John also told Dean that he might have to kill Sam one day and on more than one occasion, Dean has been okay with Sam dying) (Edited the rest of the sentence, not relevant to the topic).

Dean’s ‘love’ hasn’t driven the plot since Carver took over, possibly even since Gamble took over (but definitely not since Carver took over). His quest for revenge, his tendency for violence, his desire for control, his utter unwillingness to see anybody’s point of view but his own, is what has driven the plot. Dean didn’t want to do the trials out of love for anyone. He wanted to do the trials for revenge on all those ‘sons of bitches’. He wanted to die so that Sam could have his normal life, a normal life he doesn’t want Sam having when Dean is around. (There’s no such thing as compromise with Dean, is there??) This is how Dean shows his ‘love’ for Sam, control. Sam can have his normal life when it’s under the conditions that Dean dictates. (And considering how Dean reacted to Sam not bringing him back last season who knows if Dean would have wanted to be brought back.)

Dean sees himself as ‘poison’ because it separates him from his actions and because he does not want to see himself as the sum of his choices. If he did that, then he would have to admit that he failed in his ‘job’, that over the years, he has done more harm than good to Sam. Would Sam have been better off if he was left dead at Cold Oak? Most definitely. He’d be in heaven with his parents, with Jessica and in time, with Dean. However, because he was brought back, he has had to endure unimaginable horrors both physically and emotionally. (And when all is said and done, he’s going to die at some stage anyway!) Dean cannot admit failings when it comes to Sam; his ‘job’, his ‘responsibility ’, therefore what he does is turned around so that he believes he did the right thing. If Dean could admit that he did wrong, then Dean could fix things, but Dean prefers to ignore things and hope that they will blow over in time. Unfortunately, this is something that the show has been enabling with Dean for years now; they refuse to focus on the true consequences to his actions. They will always bring about someone to pull Dean’s ass out of the fire at the last minute so that he does not have to face up to the consequences of his actions, so that they can be whitewashed over. The consequences of Dean selling his soul was not just that he broke the first seal (Jeez, when’s the last time the show mentioned that?), but that he also had one foot on the road to demonhood. However, Castiel was brought in to stop that from happening so there were no larger consequences. The consequence to Dean trusting the angels was that he, like Sam, believed Lilith had to be killed. However, once again, Castiel saved his ass by having a fit of conscience at the nth hour. The consequence to Dean putting Sam’s soul back was Sam ending up near death in a mental institution with Lucifer screaming in his ear. Once again, Castiel (with some help from Bobby) ensured that didn’t happen and so the true consequences to Dean’s actions, Dean’s choices, could be brushed over.

Also, Dean’s ‘I'm poison’ was one of the most telling lines in the last two seasons, and it shows everything that is wrong with how Dean is being written at the moment and that is his absolute inability to accept responsibility for what he does. (Must be that dictator thing!) By saying he’s poison, he’s absolving himself of the choices that he made by claiming when things go wrong it’s because of something he is, and not something he does. Like Dean said to Sam when he pointing the gun at him in Southern Comfort ‘Those aren’t mistakes, those are choices’.

In the last two seasons, (bar the blip with being possessed by the witch) Dean is really the only character who has had free will all the time, while being the only character to manipulate others out of their free will. The possession aside, Dean did the same thing with getting Kevin back. “And now he’s in it.... whether he likes it or not”. He did the same thing with the text message, “But if you'd have just heard me out, if you'd have trusted me, all of this could have been avoided”, putting his choices on Sam. There are a dozen different ways Dean could handle things differently, he chose to do it that way, and then chose to absolve himself of blame. Dean could have said ‘You know what, Sam has earned his peace. He has done enough and sacrificed enough. I’m going to respect his wishes and let him go and have his heaven and I’ll see him again in a few years and all will be good’. He didn’t do that. Instead, he decided to have him possessed (twice) and bring him back to a world where he would be anything but safe. Where’s the logic in that?

The problem is that they are not deliberately writing Sam as unsympathetic, the problem is that they are not writing Sam as anything. They let him say little and give him even less exposition. Instead, they chose to focus solely on Dean’s feels, and Dean has been in a pity party since season two, eight goddamn seasons ago, which is when Dean first started moaning about his lot in life. (Dear Dean, we know your life sucks. God knows you've told us often enough. You know who else’s life sucks, every other character on the show.) As long as the show continues to do that, then any character who is not Dean will be deemed to be written unsympathetical ly because it is always the other character that brings about the trembling lip, single manly tear, stoically lying on his bed with his headphones while crying on the inside out of Dean. And God help that character, whether it be Sam or Castiel or Bobby or Lisa or Missouri because regardless of what that character did or why they did it, if it makes Dean feel bad then it will be deemed the wrong thing to do/say. And unfortunately, the reason the focus has to go on the reaction of the characters that make Dean feel bad, because they don't allow him to react to his actions, as a means to make him feel bad. Instead, he passes them off on external factors (‘I’m poison’) or absolves himself of blame (‘I did what I had to do’) or puts the blame on someone else. Over time, because Dean is the sole POV character, this whitewash is taken as canon. (I’d originally thought the line about ‘Penny Markle’ in Sacrifice was a joke, but now I’m not so sure. It is rather telling of a long engrained habit with Dean. Dean puts the blame for his actions on someone else, and that is what is taken as canon in Dean’s mind, until Dean is reminded that’s not the way it went. Again, it was like in Sharp Teeth when Dean was talking about ‘the night we went our separate ways’, he had to be reminded that it was the night he ‘split’. There are an awful lot of things since season 3 three that Dean really needs to be reminded of.)

And there is one person who has made as many mistakes as Sam and Castiel, Dean. Unlike Dean though, Sam and Castiel have owed up to their mistakes and sought to make amends for them. This is why their mistakes are given the greater weight. Dean’s mistakes, which have been identical to Sam and Castiel’s, have been handwaved away time and again, therefore they are given no weight and considered to be unimportant.

One thing is certain, Dean has a hell of a lot of growing up to do. Once he’s cured, how he’ll react to what he chose to do (and I mean more than the actions that led him to becoming a demon) will tell a lot about the character. If he reverts to the status quo, prolongs the pity party and fobs responsibility off on someone else again, then so long to the character, he won’t be worth anything. It just means that Dean is a manchild, with more of an emphasis on 'child'. If he actually mans up and accepts responsibility for what he did, both in taking on the MoC, keeping Sam out of the hunt, having him possessed in the first place, lying about it etc etc, and tries to make amends for what he did, then there’s hope for him. Unfortunately, we’re now in an era of writing (both on the show and in media at large) where the hero is not the one who tries to right his/her wrongs, who tries to fix relationships that he/she had a hand in breaking, who puts others first and does things for their betterment. Thanks to 50 Shades of fucking Grey, the ‘hero’ is now the one who decides what is consent for others, regardless of their own expressed desires, the one who dictates that they have authority over other people, the ‘hero’ is the one who decides that he/she knows what other people want, who does not do apologies (because only weak people capitulate and apologise and so apologies are not good for business) when they wrong someone. What makes people a ‘hero’ these days is that they are ‘damaged’ and ‘misunderstood’ . They are ‘heroes’ because people pity them. These ‘heroes’ only do what they do because of some trauma inflicted upon them at childhood (kind of like the ‘John programmed Dean to be like this’ thing). Trying to control other people, to manipulate them into doing what they want, is how they show they ‘care’. So if SPN continues with this cheap, easy and predictable writing next season again, then expect another Dean whitewash, while every other character on the show falls all over themselves accepting the blame for Dean’s actions (and Dean putting the blame on them) and bestowing him with all the love, trust, respect and forgiveness that he so often withholds from them.

Now Sam is not blameless in this. Sam is as guilty of enabling Dean as any other character on the show. Sam, like everyone else, will not hold Dean accountable for what he does or even question him about his actions. The unfortunate thing is that since Bobby died, there is really no one left on the show that will. Sam is now too meek (and I would love for Sam to get an answer from Dean as to any one of his questionable actions last season or this season), Castiel is too wrapped up in getting Dean’s approval to ever want to challenge him (as evidenced by his ‘I prefer the word ‘trusting’’ line, at a time Sam was getting needles stuck into his brain as a result of Dean being too ‘trusting’). Garth and Charlie are chairperson and vice-chairperso n of the Dean Winchester fan club. Kevin might have but then he became part of the ‘family’ so he had to follow the status quo of don’t question Dean, and Bobby is dead. There is literally no one left who can, or will, hold Dean to account for what he does. For Sam to drag Dean out of the aforementioned pity party and help Dean to actually grow up, he’s going to have to find his backbone. Now I don’t know if it’s gone because it’s been systematically beaten out of him over the seasons (probable) or the writers just couldn’t be bothered to write it (more probable), but it’s not there and it’s absence has played a part in Dean falling to the extent that he has. For example, Sam in the past would have reminded Castiel and Dean that April was an innocent victim, Dean would have felt some iota of guilt and with that, he would be reminded of his humanity. Now though, Sam is smirking into his beer along with Castiel and Dean so there is no one to remind him of the human side of their jobs. That it’s meant to be about saving people, not just hunting things. In order to be more like Dean (and possibly be accepted by Dean), Sam had to cast aside that which made him Sam, which means that instead of being able to stop Dean from rolling downhill, he’s rolling right alongside him.

There’s a line in John Winchesters diary where John writes re Sam “He’s got all the willpower us Winchesters are known for, but in him it sits quietly. You don’t notice it’s there until he decides he feels strongly enough about something that he won’t compromise. Then you might as well wrestle angels.” The Sam that would wrestle angels for what he believes in, the guy with morals, beliefs, self-worth and empathy for the victims has got to come back. The guy with passion (about anything) has got to come back, and then there will be hope for Dean. Sam’s got to stop giving a crap about what other people think of him, Dean included. After all, a wolf doesn't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep. As long as Sam lets himself be beaten down by Dean and others, as long as he remains this snivelling little sheep who allows his morals, his hopes, his dreams and his self-worth to be dictated by those who don’t know him, and have never really bothered enough to find out about him, then he’ll never be a wolf. And Dean really needs a wolf to bite him in the arse and get him to man the hell up, because he will listen to no one else.
E
# E 2014-07-04 09:53
Tim, another epic and awesome post. I relish your comments! I absolutely agree with everything you wrote. It's one of the reasons that I hated the finale so much. It was part and parcel of what has been going wrong for the past two seasons (and maybe longer) on this show. Sam has lost his voice and his function and as a result Dean has gone off the rails even worse than before, blaming everyone else (and particularly Sam) for things that are HIS fault and then the fans, like sheep, follow along. Its like living with an alcoholic, and everyone around him is enabling his drinking rather than challenging him to quit. Then the one person who does speak up, is told that he's wrong and to shut the hell up, rendering that one voice of reason mute and inconsequential .

My biggest concern regarding season 10, is that I don't believe that the writers believe or even understand that Dean is the one who needs to change here; that he'll never be confronted with how his choices and his alone lead him to be responsible for the slaughter an innocent (Kevin) or how it lead him to the state he's in now, because the don't see Dean as making bad choices. I think, to the writers, that Dean is the hero/victim fighting the good fight, and they will never challenge him as a character or the choices that he makes because THEY (and Dean) don't see any kind of a problem. Consequently, they have Dean making all kinds of dubious decisions and then blaming everyone else for those decisions. Then the writers buy into the lie and so do the fans. Case in point, this whole season and pretty much all of season 8. The episode The Mentalists in season 7, has become a microcosm for the past two seasons where Dean does something awful, lies about it, then gets mad when Sam decides he's upset, forcing Sam to apologize for something completely not his fault. It drives me batshit crazy that Sam committed totally to fighting Metatron at Dean's side, telling him that he was all-in and would do what ever Dean wanted, what ever it took, and Dean's response to that was to punch Sam in the face and take him out of the fight. Then when Dean is killed (because he didn't learn the lesson of season 5, that they can only defeat this type of evil TOGETHER, duh!) it somehow becomes Sam's fault because Dean is incapable of taking responsibility for his actions and the writers are incapable of having him appear in the wrong. I don't hold out much hope for season 10. I think we'll have to suffer through half a season of woobie Demon Dean having an epic pity party filled with man angst, then Sam will fail at saving him and Castiel will swoop in and save the day. Then Dean will blame Sam for everything, tell him Castiel is a better brother and Sam will say nothing as usual. The remainder of the season will be Dean flagellating himself at every turn as punishment for the thing he's currently blaming Sam for. So then we'll get Dean pain and Sam blame… the stattus quo.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-07-04 16:20
E I'm afraid I share your concerns. When the possession by Gadreel storyline started I thought there was no way it would not lead to an intense look at Dean's flaws, especially his removing consent from Sam. I also thought there was no way the writers could avoid finally giving Sam an explicit and at least somewhat comprehensive POV about being possessed against his will. Boy was I wrong! We got a season of ambiguous statements, and sentences that trailed off into nothing from Sam. Never once was the fact that Sam has previously been possessed against his will mentioned. Neither was the fact that Lucifer possessed him in the last ditch attempt to stop the Apocalypse. How those possessions affected Sam was completely ignored.

There does seem to be a feeling that Dean must not be criticized to an unhealthy extent. When Sam has legitimate grievances they are overlooked. When Cas finds out Dean has done something that Cas has knowledge of and should be critical of, he either does not say anything i.e. when he found out Dean took the Mark he said it was not a good thing, but did not tell Dean what he did was wrong, or he excuses Dean's actions as with Gadreel possessing Sam. I was unhappy with season eight where Sam's not looking for Dean was barely explored and dismissed with Sam simply stating that he thought Dean was dead, while at the same time Dean's hurt and anger were explored in great detail. Then in season nine, Dean betrays Sam by tricking him into possession and again Dean's hurt and anger are explored in depth and Sam's feelings are brushed over. I honestly don't know how much longer I can watch the "poor emo Dean who is always hurt and angry" show. I started watching a show about two brothers and have watched Sam's emotional journey become less until it is almost nonexistent. This isn't the show I signed up for. If Sam is yet again given short shrift in season 10, I may have to re-evaluate my attachment to Supernatural.
E
# E 2014-07-05 12:19
Quote:
I started watching a show about two brothers and have watched Sam's emotional journey become less until it is almost nonexistent. This isn't the show I signed up for. If Sam is yet again given short shrift in season 10, I may have to re-evaluate my attachment to Supernatural.
I never in a million years thought I'd get there either, but I am basically at the same place with this show. If season 10 once again makes Sam the scape goat for Dean's actions, ignoring his POV or failing to give him a complete story of his own, all while focusing on Dean's epic and endless main pain, I'll be done. Sam as a character deserves better and Jared as an actor deserves better as well. I am not sure I'll be able to watch, knowing that Jared could be off doing something far more meaningful than sitting around in his own show being nothing more than wall paper; pretty, silent and in the back ground.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-07-05 20:12
Tim, E, percysowner, I am in agreement with all of you posts. Those are and have been my problems with the show since season 3. It's gotten so bad that at this point I can barely stand to look at Dean. I, too, am afraid that season 10 will be more of the same. Each season my desire to watch the show lessens. If season 10 doesn't hold Dean accountable for his own actions, I'm out. I can only take so much of Dean's BS.
amyh
# amyh 2014-07-06 13:41
I'e been thinking a lot about this...sam's lack of POV, hisx inner landscape. I dont think - with Sam only being allowed to interact with Dean 99% of the time - that we will ever see inside Sam. It's simply not possible because in the last few years especially but really the past decade Sam has learned he can't trust Dean. As a hunter yes...but a brother definetly not.

Every time Sam has opened up and revealed something personal...such as Ameila and the text for one - Dean has used it against Sam to decieve, to manipulate and betray. How can Sam trust Dean when he has to wonder if Dean is filing the information away and thinking of ways to use it against Sam? Dean uses their personal shared history against Sam. In a world where your enemies and even allies using your own fears and doubts against you ...Sam shouldn't have to worry about Dean doing it as well. But he has to. Dean has twisted and abused Sams trust....im scary worried about what Dean as a demon will do with all that information and history.

I agree with E and Percy. Sam and JAred both deserve better As to jensen saying in an interview that Sam is selfish (how is it selfish for being angry about being tricked into possession for wanting to fight for free will, for the basic rights Dean and Catiel seem to enjoy?) I now understand why i dislike Jensens' directing because its apparent that his directiing is colored by his view that Sam is selfish.

And for that Jared deserves better.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-07-06 16:14
I wouldn't put too much stock into that interview. It was awkwardly conducted (over the phone), they talked over Jensen, there were long pauses and Jensen at that time didn't know where the story was going. Sometimes the actors say things that aren't coming out exactly as they mean them to and because Sam never acted selfish during the season I really can't imagine that was what Jensen intended to convey to the interviewers. No one loves this show more than Jared and Jensen and neither one would ever intentionally say anything to cast a shadow over either character. Probably at the time of the interview Jensen was just getting into the MOC storyline so for all we know that was how he was thinking MOC affected Dean would be seeing Sam.
Lisa1
# Lisa1 2014-07-06 17:25
No, Cheryl, I'm pretty sure Jensen was calling Sam selfish. I believe the interview occurred after the Garth episode and TP. It was on Winchester Radio, and Jensen's comments re: Sam caused quite a stir on Spoilertv.com and Supernatural.tv . But as Leah mentioned below, Jensen has referred to Dean as an a-hole and a jerk before. I don't think either actor hates any of the characters or anything.

IIRC, Jensen's comment was the result of a direct question,. I think someone mentioned that the women on that show don't really like Sam so maybe it was the way the question was worded. I remember everyone laughing, but Jensen did expand on his comment. I don't remember what he said though.

Anyway, from what I've read from Jared, it seems like he may agree w/Jensen. if the accounts are accurate. I don't know. Jared seems really set on having Sam rescue Dean, and I think he wants that to happen b/c he is sick of this perception that only Dean sacrifices. That's not how he sees Sam, but that may be how he feels the writers portray Sam. Who knows? Every opportunity where Sam could have been shown making a huge, showy sacrifice for Dean like Dean has for Sam were squandered by the writers. We had the writers' strike in S3, but what explains Carver's whacky, OOC arc for Sam in S8?!?! We should have seen Sam rescue Dean from Purgatory.

I hope he is permitted to rescue Dean before the series ends.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-07-06 17:44
Yes I listened to the interview once on Winchesterradio and twice when it was posted here. From what I understand Jensen doesn't do interviews very often so I wanted to listen to what he had to say. I also watched the video from the JIBcon and the ones preceding it. Since I love Sam and Jared I really wanted to hear what he had to say. So yes I came away with a different impression evidently. But in ST Dean had just gotten the MOC and Jensen didn't know where the character was going to end up. So my take between pauses and talking over each other and just the type of interview it was it sounded to me like Jensen was talking about his character. As Jared was talking about the wishes for his character when asked the question. I am with both guys, Jensen wants more levity and Jared wants the brothers to be back on board with each other.
LEAH
# LEAH 2014-07-06 16:19
Quoting Amyh:
"It's simply not possible because in the last few years especially but really the past decade Sam has learned he can't trust Dean. As a hunter yes...but a brother definetly not."

"Every time Sam has opened up and revealed something personal...such as Ameila and the text for one - Dean has used it against Sam to decieve, to manipulate and betray. How can Sam trust Dean when he has to wonder if Dean is filing the information away and thinking of ways to use it against Sam? Dean uses their personal shared history against Sam. In a world where your enemies and even allies using your own fears and doubts against you ...Sam shouldn't have to worry about Dean doing it as well. But he has to. Dean has twisted and abused Sams trust."

"As to jensen saying in an interview that Sam is selfish (how is it selfish for being angry about being tricked into possession for wanting to fight for free will, for the basic rights Dean and Catiel seem to enjoy?) I now understand why i dislike Jensens' directing because its apparent that his directiing is colored by his view that Sam is selfish."


Those are such unfair and inaccurate statements. Dean has made mistakes. As written in the series and especially the last few years they both have. Newsflash Amyh Sam CAN be selfish and he has also lied and deceived and kept things from Dean. I don't for a second believe Jensen doesn't like Sam as a character, I have seen him refer to DEAN as angry and a jerk. I think they both love those characters and don't see them as perfect as much of the fandom seems to. And for gods sake do you really think Jensen DIRECTED Jared to be "selfish"? As for Jared he has repeatedly said he loves playing Sam and is happy with his job. Why can't people be happy for Jared and take him at his word? If he was as miserable (as some fans are!) he would leave his job, he is not stupid. I get so tired of the accusations that Dean has abused, poor Sam this whole series. I have not thought Dean's actions this year have been right! But I also know that there was no malicious intent. He was not setting out to deceive, lie and manipulate Sam, he was trying to save his damn brother and things went horribly wrong. To make it sound like Dean's every action for a decade was to find ways to deliberately be cruel to Sam is just so wrong Amyh. I fully expect to be inundated with posts disagreeing with me but I don't care, Dean and Jensen don't deserve this!

Edited to add: I thought Jensen did a great job of directing the episodes he has done had so far.
Lisa1
# Lisa1 2014-07-06 17:10
This is lala2.

No hate or disagreement from me, Leah. I don't think either brother has ever intentionally set out hurt the other. I could never agree that Dean acted w/malicious intent this year. He thought he had vetted "Ezekiel" through Castiel and thought he could trust Ezekiel to heal Sam. I also disagree w/those who think Dean went against Sam's express wishes. The last thing Dean knew was that Sam stopped the trials to live so I'm not sure why some are surprised that Dean tried his best to save him.

Now, I'm not saying it was right what Dean did or that Sam had no reason to be angry, but to be frank, I'd rather see the brothers go to crazy lengths for each other than do nothing. That's why I watch. I love that they will do crazy things to save each other. It's a tv show, and I find that behavior highly entertaining. I don't watch to see them do nothing like they had Sam doing last year.

I believe they could have told a story around Sam ending his search for Dean or deciding that it was too dangerous to continue the search, but I will never believe that Sam wouldn't do an initial investigation. I will never believe that Sam would simply "assume" Dean was dead even though there was no body before him. That was OOC and yet another colossal mistake the writing dept made w/r/t Sam, IMO!
LEAH
# LEAH 2014-07-06 17:25
Hi lala! Thanks I appreciate that, and agree with the remainder of your comment wholeheartedly. :)
Lisa1
# Lisa1 2014-07-06 17:34
You're welcome :)

I think, at times, Dean gets a bad rap here. Sam gets a bad rap on other forums. Since I don't see either brother as evil, manipulative, or horrible, I tend to be more in the middle.

My main issue w/the show is the writing. For instance, I hated Sam's speeches this year b/c I don't believe he would say those things to Dean. Plus, the speeches were so poorly written, IMO, that I wasn't sure what point Sam was even trying to make. In any event, I believe Sam is more articulate than those speeches. I also hated Dean's speech in that penny episode last year b/c it was OTT and straight up OOC. However, instead of hating on Dean b/c he irrationally blames Sam for being soulless or accuses him of lying to him since the Pilot, or hating on Sam who sees Dean as a cowardly, selfish loser, I just "hate" on the crappy writing. Haha!
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-07-06 17:26
The thing is, for the most part, Sam has not deceived Dean since season four. Even in season four, the only thing he deceived Dean about was how he was boosting his powers. He told Dean that Ruby was Ruby pretty quickly. He hid the exorcisms, which again was pretty early on, but once Dean found out he didn't hide them from Dean. Dean complained that Sam saying he was going out wasn't fooling him, he knew Sam was going to Ruby to use his "freaky powers", so not much deception there. Plus to quote Dean from the Pilot "Dude, Sam was 26" He didn't have to report his comings and goings to anyone. After everything blew up around him, I can't remember him deceiving Dean at all in season five. Season six has him not telling Dean about his return from Hell, but the whole soulless thing makes those the actions of Sam not being himself through no fault of his own, no matter how much Dean tries to guilt him. True he didn't tell Dean he didn't have a soul, another of Dean's big complaints, but there is no indication whatsoever that he KNEW he didn't have a soul. He knew he was different, but he'd spent time in Hell and possessed by Lucifer, PTSD changes people too. In season seven he didn't mention the hallucinations for 24 hours or less and again do you tell someone about an isolated incident that may or may not happen again? After that, Sam didn't hide them. Season eight Sam did hide the fact that he was being drained by the trials, but frankly, I've gone to work with a migraine and said I was fine. I also have known people who have had cancer and other serious diseases, people can and do deceive themselves as to how ill they are. Plus Dean was there observing Sam, so it's not like he didn't actually know what Sam was going through. Dean OTOH, told Sam he would keep him grounded in reality then in virtually the next episode makes Sam live in the fantasy that Dean trusts him and didn't kill Amy. Dean sends Sam the text from Amelia to draw him away from Benny. Dean lies to Sam about finding tricking him into being possesses. He lies to Sam about knowing where Garth is. Sam learned his lesson after Ruby and has not withheld any material facts from Dean. Dean's lies and deceives Sam more and more and he does it in ways that are meant to be hurtful (in the case of Amelia) or simply meant to gaslight Sam into believing that Sam can't trust his own body (when Sam noticed losing time due to Gadreel) or simply into believing that Dean trusts him, as with Amy. Dean's lies have been material to Sam's health and well being, both emotional and physical.

Basically, if you have to go back six freaking seasons to find any huge, life impacting deceptions to pin on Sam, that means that he has not been particularly deceitful. While Dean has increased in lies, deceit and using what he knows about Sam against Sam.
LEAH
# LEAH 2014-07-06 18:49
Quoting Percysowner :
"Basically, if you have to go back six freaking seasons to find any huge, life impacting deceptions to pin on Sam, that means that he has not been particularly deceitful. While Dean has increased in lies, deceit and using what he knows about Sam against Sam."

Or for crying out loud I was not trying to "pin" anything on Sam. I was bringing a few things from the past not to disparage Sam but to point out he is human, not perfect and capable of some of the same things. Amyh's comment which WAS disparaging Dean was talking about his 'abusiveness' the run of the series as has many comments lately. Dean has done a lot of sketchy things I can't or won't defend. Some I felt were to protect Sam but that is dead horse territory. Every post that in any way might depict Sam as less than perfect is taken as an attack. You should know by now that I don't attack characters, especially Sam, but I will defend Dean on occasion. And he gets raked over the coals pretty regularly. Mostly I just get to read dozens of harsh criticisms (as opposed to fair) of Dean that go back to the pilot. But I say that Sam has made mistakes in the past to and it looks like an attack of some sort? I am allowed to feel some protectiveness for my character too once in awhile Percy. So shoot me.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-07-06 21:39
There is a world of difference between admitting Sam is not perfect, and he isn't perfect, and saying that Dean should get off scot-free because five seasons ago Sam made huge mistakes. Sam did make huge mistakes, and he admitted to them. He did everything he could to make amends by stopping Lucifer and being willing to be tortured for eternity to make certain that he would stop the harm he caused. If you have any doubt that Sam made mistakes I suggest you read any thread on this board. Read those who repeatedly state that Sam can NEVER be redeemed for killing the nurse in season four. Read those who say they can't get over Sam not looking for Dean and can't forgive that. Dean did a lot more than "some sketchy things". He changed Sam's phone contacts to make certain Sam could not get in touch with Amelia then used his feelings for Amelia against him. He tricked Sam into saying yes to Gadreel, then spent months telling Sam who can you believe "me or your own lying eyes" and he worked to make sure that Sam didn't believe in his own perceptions of how his body was behaving or what was actually happening to Sam. When Sam found out, Dean left him alone to cope with his hurt and betrayal. When Dean came back he insisted that not only was Dean right in his choices, that he would do it all again, including having Kevin murdered by Sam. He insisted that Sam had no right to be annoyed, let alone angry about what Dean did to him. And yes, taking physical control of someone else's body, permitting someone else to use that body when they want without permission, asking that person to take control of that body whenever he is useful to you is, in fact, abusive. And saying that it's all okay because six seasons ago Sam did bad things is really not alright.

You do defend both characters. You are also far more willing to defend Dean and call a monumental violation "sketchy" while taking Sam to task for things he paid for long ago. Whatever his motives, what Dean did did not "go horribly wrong" it was horribly wrong from the get go, something that is being overlooked by the show and most commentators. Saying Dean's decision to rent out Sam's body to the first passing angel would have been find, if only Keven hadn't been killed totally erases Sam and his rights from the discussion. This is true no matter what Dean's initial intentions.

One thing we do agree on is that Jared is a big boy who is completely capable of deciding if he wants to stay with the show. Jared says he's happy and I believe him. I don't want him to "find something more worthy of his talents". Heck if I decide that the writing is so bad that I stop watching I think the show should go on as long as enough other people are watching and enjoying it and as long as Jared and Jensen want to continue.
LEAH
# LEAH 2014-07-06 22:07
I will only say a few things in response to all this.

#1) I never said Dean should get off scott free for anything. Never. That is you putting words in my mouth.

#2) I have never taken Sam to "task" for anything!! I have been fairly consistent in my view that he was right to feel angry and violated. I only said, no matter how you try and twist, it is that Sam is capable of things of doing things that are selfish and deceitful. He is human. Not saint. I was clearly not talking about the current season. I was clearly not finding fault with Sam in any way for anything this season. I was defending Dean against allegations he has been a shitty brother for the whole series. And that his every action is a calculated and malicious attempt to do harm to Sam.

#3) Yes I do defend both characters and Sam doesn't even need me to defend him here, every person here defends him over and over and over and over. Even when there is no offense meant to Sam. There are few who defend Dean here. Again I wasn't saying he was right this season but I won't agree with a series long trashing of his character either.

#4) By not thinking Dean's actions were meant as malicious, I in no way said that it was "fine" that Dean let Sam get possessed and my comment of "went horribly wrong" meant from the moment he asked an angel to help save Sam. Because when he was in that church none of what happened later was in his mind, nothing he did was premeditated. He was desperate to save Sam. The "horribly wrong" started after that.

And yes we do agree on the last paragraph.
eilf
# eilf 2014-07-06 17:39
Hi Amyh, while I agree that what Jensen said in the radio interview and then backed up on stage, (knocking the feet out from under Jared, who was in the middle of a sentence, in the process), is very upsetting (and not the sort of thing I have ever seen him do before and honestly I don't understand it....) I really don't think that he would ever deliberately direct in a way that made Jared look bad. He is a better person than that and there really isn't any doubt that they have each others backs as actors / friends.

The two actors are friends, if they see the roles of their characters differently than we do that is personal opinion, and it is somewhat possible that what he said it was character bleed and tiredness mid-season (lord I hope so).

Anyway I think we have enough built-in annoyance with the way the show has gone this season, I don't think it is a good idea to guess at what the actors are thinking. I truly think they are mostly thinking, 'when's lunch?' "how can I make Misha laugh this afternoon?' and 'I wonder are the kids going to let me sleep tonight?'
Lisa1
# Lisa1 2014-07-06 17:49
Quote:
Hi Amyh, while I agree that what Jensen said in the radio interview and then backed up on stage, (knocking the feet out from under Jared, who was in the middle of a sentence, in the process), is very upsetting
I missed this, eilf. What happened at the convention?
eilf
# eilf 2014-07-06 18:01
See. I feel bad because i keep mentioning this and I have no proof, it kills me because I watched this, I downloaded it, I played it several times, and now i can't find it. And I am a little afraid of conflating it with the radio interview.
It started off with Jared saying that he liked how the season was the inverse of Season 4 and it ended with Jensen saying something that resulted in Jared grinning awkwardly at the audience and saying 'Booo, Sam!' (as in 'Sam you did a bad thing', but that wasn't where he was going when he STARTED talking) The audience wasn't buying it anyway, from either of them. You really do have to wonder what the writers want us to think...
I will try to find the clip.
Lisa1
# Lisa1 2014-07-06 18:11
Hmmm . . . . interesting. Thanks! I would love to see the clip if you can find it :)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-07-06 18:02
I think it was Las Vegas and Jared was explaining to a fan what he felt Sam was going through at the end of the Purge. It was his first opportunity since the episode aired to explain what he was going for. He was telling the fan that he was hurt and angry and lashing out and unfortunately Jensen looked at Jared and joked "Your Welcome" which got a big laugh and a cheer but Jared didn't get to finish his thought. It wasn't intentional on Jensens part it was just bad timing. It is on the video.
eilf
# eilf 2014-07-06 18:06
Oh no, not that, that was just joking.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-07-06 18:08
Oh then I don't which convention you mean. I haven't watched all of them. Maybe someone will know.
eilf
# eilf 2014-07-06 18:32
Me neither, I wonder has it been removed? I think it was a gold panel and it was mid-season.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-07-06 19:12
You know I have a very vague recollection of that moment and I can't remember which con it was at. There was Vegas, DC, JIB, were there any others?
E
# E 2014-07-05 20:00
And you know what else Percys? I thought it would be impossible for TPTB to not give us any Sam POV with the possession story, because even though Sam may not have been in a position to show us what he was feeling, Gadreel was… he even said so to Dean "I know everything he knows." So how is it with two characters in a position to tell us about Sam that we got nothing? How come Dean didn't take advantage of Gadreels knowledge of Sam to ask him questions that Sam had been unable or unwilling to answer, like 'why did you leave me in Purgatory?' Such a wonderful opportunity was presented to get some Sam insight and the only time it was used by the writers was to goad Dean with all of the negative things Sam was feeling in Meta Fiction and to confirm the lie about Sam being willing to let Dean die. What a GREAT insight. No wonder so many fans hate Sam.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-07-05 22:40
I know. This season was a golden opportunity for Sam insight. Not letting Gadreel tell Dean about Sam's deepest, hidden thoughts was a huge missed opportunity. Heck, if they wanted Dean to remain unceasingly angry at Sam, Gadreel could have told METATRON what was going on inside Sam. He could have said he escaped by telling Dean Sam didn't care if he lived, but told Metatron that it wasn't true and gone on to explain Sam. He could have talked to Cas about Sam before blowing himself up. Sort of a "when you get out of this take care of Sam because I hurt him. Here's what you need to know about Sam" speech. But no, the writers couldn't be bothered to even think about presenting Sam's POV.

I vacillate. Like nappi I can see a lot of subtle work showing us Sam's mindset. I think Dean has been shown in a very negative light this season, but I do have to work to see it. And I'm not sure it should be a lot of work. Season nine may well be setting up growth for Dean and finally highlighting Dean's failings. We may finally get Sam giving his take on the world, Dean, Cas and everything next year. But part of me believes we will yet again get how Dean feels about the world, this time as a demon! While Sam remains silent and we get nothing from him. That would really upset me. For now, I'm hoping for the best and expecting the worst.

Oh, I totally understand you're not wanting accounts. It's really a good idea.
E
# E 2014-07-06 07:53
Even if by some miracle we get some Sam insight and Dean realizing his behavior toward his brother was highly questionable it won't erase the past two seasons for me…. too little, too late and all that. It's sort of like the episode Sacrifice… a good conclusion to a crappy story does not suddenly make the story not crappy; and Sam's story has been CRAPPY. There is no "insight" that Dean could gain (in the 11th hour) that will mitigate the unwatchable nature of the past two seasons….not for me anyway.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-07-06 05:14
My frustration is that Sam did not actually do anything wrong last season. And yet because of the Dean bias and the failings in the writing Sam is the one that end's up being seen has wrong because of that . How can anybody relate to a character when he is not even allowed to confront the angel that possessed him and used him to kill Kevin and how can people relate to someone who's pain is given two sentence's and a brief 'I have had nightmares' in the finale. Sam deserved better than that because what Dean did went to the heart of alot of Sam's issues and it got ignored.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-07-05 15:00
Tim, I agree with most of your points here and I thank you for making them. what I do think though, based on how the seasons have been going and the negative aspects of dean's personality coming out full force, I can't help but think it's been all purposely done so that he can indeed change. I agree that dean is the only character who has not learned from past mistakes. I also agree, as sam said to dean, that free will only seems to apply to him. everything negative that you have pointed out in regards to dean, I believe at some point I have done the same. I agree that sam has taken more crap than even I had wanted him to. he wasn't kidding when he said he had a high tolerance for pain. it's always been the case in regards to sam, that it takes a lot for him to open up about what he's feeling, whether it be fear, pain, or anger. I guess I just accepted sam having that type of personality and I guess I could relate to him, as i'm very similar. i guess that's why i'm more attune to sam even when he's not given the the chance to express verbally his emotions. it doesn't mean i don't want that though.
i do feel like carver has been highlighting dean's unfavorable character traits these last two seasons. as I've said, i haven't really sympathized with dean at all and I too have found that he's been very self absorbed both at the beginning of season 8, a little less when sam got sick, but then back to being self absorbed yet again this season. i think the point has been for dean to finally change. i think these last two seasons have been about dean coming to terms with all his crap. now i don't really feel that as far as sam's characterizatio n goes, it's been at sam's expense. i see sam representing one who's made mistakes and learned from them. i see sam as the one who with greater strength of character. i so have wanted sam to just punch dean right in the nose so often both last season and this season, but it's quite telling in how strong he actually is that he doesn't just react....sam's always been the character who feels more, thinks more, holds his pain inside more...he hides it so well, you don't even know sometimes how much he's hurting. i know that can be frustrating, but i also see it as sam being so considerate to other's as well. but then again at times....
i think it has to do with sam's own feelings of lack of self worth...sam admitted to Amelia that when his brother died he imploded and ran. there have been visual and verbal clues that sam had been through more than we were allowed to see on screen. and i know that sucked and it would've been better to have seen it, but even though we were told and given clips here and there, i guess it was enough for me to see sam's pain. sam would rather take dean's anger than to admit what it was like for him when dean died. he did the same thing in ikwydls....we saw the truth what sam went through, but he kept it to himself. it's as though sam would rather take dean's anger than show his weakness and feel like more of a failure. this is sam's bane and he has to overcome this issue, because you are correct, if sam doesn't stop enabling dean's negative behavior than dean will likely never change. but i have to say that i do think sam has in fact started to do that, by standing his ground in both sharp teeth and the purge, sam was in fact honest with dean and has been trying to get his brother to deal with him. i still have hope that the change in dean is coming and i don't mean him being a demon. i also think that sam is going to find worth in himself and become less of an enabler when it comes to dean. i still believe that this storyline is meant for dean to realize the negative aspects of himself and accept the fact that he needs to take responsibility for his mistakes and not just accept the burden of guilt and simply wallow in it. he needs to do what he can to try to make things right, not punish himself for what he did that was wrong. he needs to understand that he cannot make decisions for others based on his own view, but rather understand that other people have their own views as well and just because it isn't dean's, that doesn't mean it's wrong. but the key to doing all of this is to change his perception of himself..to find his worth, because i still believe that all his negative traits stem from his core issue of seeing himself as nothing but a killer...this is what exacerbates his need for his brother....
i'm not giving up that s10 will lead the boys to a new promising mature relationship of understanding and trust. still not giving up hope that sam and dean will finally discuss what's been wrong...or at the very least, i haven't lost hope that dean comes to understand it even if it all comes down to a simple "i'm sorry sam".....i'd be ok with that too.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-07-04 15:13
Tim Thanks for the excellent response. You always give such well thought out and articulate answers. You summed up my feelings on Dean's actions. Sam does need to believe in himself again and stop enabling Dean. This will be good for Sam and good for Dean and is necessary to restore a balance between the brothers.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-07-07 03:32
not necessary here
Alice
# Alice 2014-07-06 21:29
Quote:
As far as the writers were concerned sam's behavior drove Dean to his actions. That is the way the season was structured. The point was for Sam to overreact and drive dean away so without his connection to family he would fall. The point was never that Dean was wrong and Sam deserves to yell. The point was dean will save sam and sam will blame dean and dean will falter when sam witholds his love.
I wholeheartedly agree with this, PSG. I didn't care for the heavy-handednes s of the dialogue and the execution of how they got there, but that was clearly the premise they were going for. I too hope that the dynamic changes, but I'm not sure what is the best way to go without destroying the core theme of the show. I'm often asking myself, if Sam's love can't save Dean, what will?

I'm hoping upon hoping that you are right about all the recent events leading to big something with Dean. I've always been in the mindset that Crowley is more than what he says he is. After all, he and Naomi had a history a long time ago. Since he's the one that brought Cain into the picture, does that mean something? I've so far heard promises that season ten will be tying everything together and explaining everything. I wish so badly that I'm not being given hype. But yes, I think you're onto something. I join you in your interest.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-07-06 22:12
But that doesn't track does it? Sam was on the bridge after he cast out Gadreel and Dean walked away from Sam and into the arms of Crowley. Sam didn't do anything at that point other than act incredulous that Dean was going to take off. After Dean took on the MOC his fate was sealed. I don't think Sam could have done or said anything that would have changed the outcome of the events that followed. When they reunited in ST Sam refused to leave Dean and agreed to stay. Yes he said some angry words to Dean but did that push Dean away? Other than one episode where Dean wouldn't go with Sam on a hunt because he was starting to really feel the influence of using the blade they were pretty much in each others pockets. So that may have been the intent of the writers but I didn't see it myself. I saw Sam continually talk Dean down from the blade. I saw Sam saving Dean's life and Dean Sam's. I saw Sam come running every time Dean called for help and not as a business partner but as a brother. In BR's Sam demanded to be taken to his brother. Dean angrily demanded that Cuthbert leave his brother alone. In the 4A's Dean immediately dropped his knife when Sam was captured, after killing the vamp (brutally) his first thought was Sam not Jodie. I thought the writers went to great lengths to show that Sam could still reach Dean even though he was getting more angry and violent. Even in the finale Dean didn't want Sam in harms way or in the way, either one but he (I know) knocked Sam out to keep him out of harms way. I really didn't see the big rift from Sam's angry words. I saw two brothers that were having a tiff that they couldn't really deal with because Dean had done something...unw ise.
I don't know what the writers are going for but if you are hearing that it is all going to come together I'm on board. I hope that Jared's wish comes true and Sam is the one to save Dean. It seems to be the set up from this season.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-07-06 23:39
i totally disagree. sam's behavior drove dean to his actions? that means that sam taking over the trials led to dean's actions. because sam took over the burden, so that dean can actually see there is a light at the end of the tunnel. he took over the trials not knowing the toll it would take on him both emotionally and physically, so that dean could have what he's always wanted...a world without demons. it's sam's fault that he chose his brother, as dean had pleaded with him to stop the trials. it's sam's fault that he was dying because he did the trials, , to atone for his failure to his brother. so basically dean got into this mess because sam chose to save dean....to do the trials so dean could live and so that dean can have the world he's dreamed of. so then, sam should've just let dean fend for himself when that hellhound came calling? I'm sorry but I can’t agree that with any of this….I don’t think this is what the writers intend for us to believe either. it seems to me that the writers have made it quite clear that the responsibility for what happened to dean lies with dean.

dean got into the mess he's in because of dean's lack of self worth and his issues of abandonment. most of dean's negative behavior especially these last two seasons stem from this core issue. dean said it in the pilot...he didn't want to do this alone. dean doesn't want to be alone. he's said it quite often, most recently in itiglih...he told sam through gad there ain't no me if there aint no you. I think that sentiment pretty much covers dean's outlook in regards to sam. sam didn't do anything to drive dean to accept that mark. dean's inability to face his brother had him walk away from sam on that bridge. his guilt over kevin. his guilt over his deception to sam...that's what allowed him to go off with Crowley and straight to cain...to accept the moc without asking about the consequences... dean didn't care because he needed to held accountable so he took it upon himself to punish himself. if dean had faced up to his brother on that bridge, if dean had even just acknowledged that what he did was wrong, even for what he believed to be the right reasons, if dean had just given sam the chance to express his hurt and pain and anger to someone who was willing to listen and understand...th en maybe dean wouldn't be in the situation he is right now.

sam didn't say anything that drove dean away. dean isolated himself from sam before he took the moc. in sharp teeth sam told him that they were broken and dean dismissed what sam was feeling. he expected sam to forgive and forget simply because they were family. sam was just supposed to go back to work as usual. did dean even consider what sam might be going through? was he able to ? I don't think he could. I really think that dean was incapable of going there...I really don't think he was able to handle sam's hurt and anger, so as per the usual, dean tried to bury it all...but this time, sam couldn't. he was too devastated. dean has hurt sam a lot in the past, and sam has taken a lot from dean, but this was more than he could take...kevin's death was the straw. so for the first time, sam stepped up and basically told dean..."no more"...because we're family doesn't cut it anymore. it's not a valid reason to excuse what dean did, not when innocents are dead because of it. i'm not talking about the possession either, because sam could understand that, it's the lying ...the deception is what eventually led to kevin's death by sam's hand. telling dean in the purge that he wouldn't save him in the same circumstances if the situation was reversed wasn't harsh, it was necessary. dean just told sam that he was right to do what he did. consequences be damned. he actually told sam, that knowing what he knows, he would do it again. knowing how much pain he caused sam. knowing how much pain he caused mrs. tran. knowing that kevin would die by sam's hand, knowing the burden that dean himself would carry, he'd still be willing to do it again. that is the scariest thing dean has ever said...and if I were sam, not only would I have been totally angry and frustrated that dean hasn't learned anything by all this, that he's totally disregarded everyone else's feelings, most of all sam's, but I would've been freaked out as well...so sam saying that he wouldn't save him the same way....dean needed to hear that. he needed to hear that sam would never do that to his brother. the problem is that he didn't hear it at all. he only heard that sam wouldn't save him. again, dean not listening to sam when he talks. now I don't think dean doesn't listen to sam on purpose, I think he genuinely hears sam saying what dean is actually telling himself.

now leah, don't think me throwing dean under the bus here because i'm really not. I know that dean saved sam out of love. I know that dean not wanting to be alone isn't the only reason he saved sam, though sam is right, it is part of the reason. I still say, the broken record that I am, that dean's decent to demon hood stems not from sam's behavior, but from dean's belief that he's no good. sam told dean what he needed to hear and i'm sorry that some think it's harsh...I thought it necessary. dean has been living in a revolving door for sometime now and it's time to get outside. dean has been burying all his crap for years now and it looks like there's no more room for it. blame keeps going onto sam alone, why? sam isn't the only one who was emotionally distant...heck sam was simply trying to bait dean so that dean would talk to him....dean is the one who isolated himself from sam. he's the one who ran off. he's the one who tried to ditch sam. he's the one who won't break easy, knowing that sam was in fact trying to break him. dean is the one who didn't want to go with sam on hunts because he was obsessed with finding the blade. then of course the obsession became stronger and dean isolated himself even more. that of course was the blade and the moc working together that did that, not anything sam had done. in the meantime, sam is trying to deal with all his anger and guilt, he's conflicted because he knows dean did it out of love, but what he did and how he did it and the lying....that was wrong for so many reasons. how can sam get rid of all his anger if he can't express it because the one person he needs to express it to isn't willing to listen to him. how is sam supposed to let it go and move on if dean won't hear what he has to say. sam tried in sharp teeth. he tried again in the purge. dean's isn't hearing sam....he's hearing only himself...his own interpretation of what sam is saying, not what's being said. before dean was unwilling to face sam, now with the blade taking over, he's incapable of it. where does that leave sam...well it leaves him still filled with pain and hurt and guilt and now you can add worry...because sam has never stopped loving his brother and he's never stopped showing how much he loves his brother, even if dean isnt' able to see it.

that's what it comes down to ....dean's own lack of self worth in himself has led dean to these extremes in the first place. not only because he loves his brother and doesn't want him to die, it's more than that....it's dean's inability to see value in himself that drives him to such acts as bringing sam back from the dead. you need them more than they need you....there ain't no me if there aint no you. we keep ea. other human. I can't do this alone. it's been said so often....dean needs sam in order to be. without sam, dean is the killer he believes himself to be. I think that dean really realized this when he came out of purgatory. he told sam he wasn't the same person when he got out. then again, in sc, dean said, people change. I think he was referring to himself and what he became in purgatory. he remained that way for quite some time after he got out. it wasn't until dean truly broke ties with benny, that he was given the choice by sam, benny or me basically, it was only then, when dean chose sam...that dean had started to become dean again. I really think that purgatory scared dean, in that he didn't like what he had become, as indicated when he confessed to Charlie in latrg.

so basically, what i'm saying here is that it takes two to tango. sam should've just flat out punched dean right in the nose to get his attention. dean doesn't want to listen to sam, well then sam should've taken extreme measures and tied his ass to a chair and made him listen. sam needs to stop keeping everything bottled up inside. that he has to work on. he also has to work on seeing himself as valuable. I am proud that sam stood his ground with dean though. i'm proud of him for being honest with dean and I think it's about time that sam said something to dean regarding his extreme actions. I really hope at some point dean thinks about what sam said when he posed that dean only saved sam because he didn't want to be alone. because it's true, it's not the only reason, but sam is right and dean has to ask himself why that is. dean, well dean needs to learn to take responsibility instead of running away from it. he needs to start listening and really hearing sam when sam talks. dean needs to stop making the same mistakes over and over. he needs to understand that dean's view isnt' the only view and it isn't always the right one either. but most of all dean has stop hating himself and stop seeing himself as someone you wouldn't want at your dinner table. dean doesn't see himself as worth loving so his misperception is that sam doesn't love him. every mistake sam has ever made is because sam doesn't love him....when in fact the opposite is true, every mistake sam has ever made was in fact because he loves dean very much. imho that dean's lack of self worth is the core reason for all the other stuff.

bottom line....dean became a demon because of dean's actions, not because of sam's actions. I have no doubt that dean will become human again because of sam's actions though. I just hope that by conquering the demon, dean will come to realize not only that his brother does in fact love him and will save him...but he'll come to understand how he fell into darkness in the first place and that he'll learn from the mistakes he's made. I also hope he'll see himself in a new light...a positive light. I hope the same for sam as well. since this is the story that I believe carver to be telling, I believe all of this will in fact happen and then we can get back to the Winchesters...n ew and improved....;)


ps. I agree Cheryl....I saw it the same exact way ;)

pss....leah, just hope you know that although i totally believe that dean basically did this to himself, i do understand what drives him. i really do believe that these last few seasons have been about the boys facing their inner demons. now i know dean is now facing his demons in the literal sense.....but never have i doubted dean's love for his brother or sam's love for his. i have no doubt that we will be pleased with what's to come....keep the faith...;)
eilf
# eilf 2014-07-05 12:54
Hi E (in particular) I love reading all your comments but wow it is getting hard on this page :D I like this new system Alice it seems to be working better all round! And I like the ability to give thumbs up so this isn't a complaint honest, but .... It doesn't always work to connect directly to the individual comments in the recent comments (possibly because people have logged out?) and the search on a long thread gets gradually searchier.

The reason I mention E is because (I am guessing) that only having one letter in your name is the reason why you never have a direct link on the 'recent comments' so they can't be accessed from there, which is often the fastest way of doing it. TLDR: I can't find your (E's) last comment while hunting through the comments ;-) And I want to know what you said!!!

Just wanted to let you know :D
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-07-05 13:14
eilf If you subscribe to the article, comments will come to your inbox. Then you can click on the view comment button and it takes you to that comment. When the thread gets really long you can click view comment and then make yourself something to drink and eat because it takes a while to load, but it will always get you to the comment you want.
eilf
# eilf 2014-07-05 13:23
Hi Percy, thanks for that!

Will it do that from the recent comments page too? You just have to wait? it looks like it is only going to the article but maybe patience would do it.
I honestly think I would do without E's bon mots (sorry E :-) it applies to everyone) rather than have all these comments in my inbox ....
I found yours and E's comment(s) by opening a bunch of 'load mores' and then typing a couple of words that were visible in the comment (emotional journey) into the search bar on Firefox. It is a decent workaround.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-07-05 13:52
I don't usually use the recent comments page, but when I tried it I did get to your comment. You click on the permanent link (where it says x minutes or hours ago) and you will get to the full comment, in context with the rest of the thread. It does take a while to load when there are lots of comments. It sits at the top of the article until it finds the comment you clicked, but then you are in and you can scroll up to and down from the comment you are looking at. I hope that helps. But yeah, be patient, open another tab, make some tea or whatever and in a minute or 2 you will get to the full comment. Also, if you click on the name of a member you will get to a page with all of their comments that they posted while logged in. For example you can, if you really have nothing to do, read all of my many comments. OTOH, several people don't have a link, so I'm guessing they posted without being signed in.
E
# E 2014-07-05 14:58
Hi Percys and eilf! Maybe it does't work always with my comments because I always post as a guest. I don't have anything against WFB, I'm just not much for having accounts and passwords all over the internet; I'm weird like that!
eilf
# eilf 2014-07-05 21:16
Hi Percy and E. Thanks for your feedback! It's not a problem, the search function works pretty well actually, and I think you have something about not having passwords and accounts everywhere E!
I still can't work out why when I started a new comment thread it appeared half way down the first/last 'load more' though.
It's a puzzle.
eilf
# eilf 2014-07-05 12:59
Why did my last comment post where it did .... ?

EDIT: Heh ok, I can't work this out at all ....
Alice
# Alice 2014-07-06 21:50
ADMIN NOTE: I've got some reported comments on this thread. I reviewed the comments in question and I'm leaving them as is. I do need to fix the reported comment feature to include a reason why you think the comment is bad or against our rules, because I am usually left to guess why is the comment being reported. I read the reported comments and they seem fine to me. Considering this is a Let's Speculate thread, the rules are looser. Unless one poster is actually throwing obvious words of insult at another, I'm not going to edit.

However, I'm not happy with the flow of the discussion. What I'm seeing with reported comments in this thread is if someone comes along and offers a strong and/or opposing view about Sam and Sam's actions, people get bent out of shape. To that I say too bad. I see no character bashing. I just see people who are trying to offer differing POVs and getting shouted down for it. I must insist that everyone be constructive and entertain all viewpoints. Explain why in language that isn't mired in dramatics and insults why you think that's different. I am going to edit one post that I think went too far in tone when replying to a rational post that shares a viewpoint very different with everyone else here, but it was still written constructively.

Recently we ran a survey. The number one complaint on that survey by far was that the threads are not welcoming enough to various viewpoints and posters, especially Dean and Castiel fans (not Destiel, just the two characters separately). I tend to agree. These threads were created with the intent that all viewpoints are welcome, so much so I'm thinking of creating a forum for long discussions like this, and strictly limiting the article threads to the topic of the article. I'm even seriously considering word limits, because some of these long winded answers are kind of exhausting to read. I'm not saying they're wrong, but if me as an admin is overwhelmed reading them, can you imagine a casual lurker? Considering the volume of readers we have on our site, 99% of our traffic is casual to regular lurkers.

I'm requiring everyone to consider your reply carefully to someone who isn't a regular here and welcome the discussion. We want more people to come in and be a part of this, and a core group doesn't seem to want to let anyone new come in and play. That will change.

Anyway, I'm off topic now, but this is my overall, general warning. Play nice. This will be the only one.

Thank you.
eilf
# eilf 2014-07-06 23:08
Gold Breakfast Panel Vegas Con 2014

I downloaded this to listen to so I only have an mp3 version. I don’t think it is online any more so here is a fairly close transcript (I removed all the ‘ums’, left in all the ‘you knows’ (sorry Jensen)). I have written down the transcript (the bit in quotes) so you can decide for yourself
Initally:
Jared talks about Gadreel and how much he liked playing him….
Conversation about Chippendales
Question: When are Sam and Dean going to stop fighting and kiss and make up?
(Jensen argues the format of the question :D )

Quote:
Jensen: This has been a pretty rough year for the brothers. In fact I am not sure that the relationship has been this strained ever. And it’s tough, you know, I was talking about this to somebody else earlier and just how … they were asking if it was difficult to play that throughout a whole season because we’re good friends off camera and the brothers are so close on camera that to have that kind of beef with each other for an extended period of time, what that does, how that takes its toll. I mean, I think the good thing is that Jared and I have become so comfortable with jumping in and out of character that we can play the scene the way it is played and kind of leave it all on the field, you know, and not take it home with us, so you know (laughs) we can remain cordial when the cameras aren’t rolling …. (Jared: apparently) uh … apparently … but it is kind of tough. It’s tough because you know there’s a definite flow and ebb in Sam and Dean that has happened for quite a long time. And when they, kind of, disrupt that, they take it away, it just makes it that much more difficult for, to play those scenes with each other but at the same time it makes for good drama, good tv.
Jared: it’s also really nice I think the season (inaudible) … I’m sure a lot of you folks have figured this out it’s been a nice kind of flip-flop with season 4 where Sam sees Dean kind of going through something and Sam’s getting worried and going like “buddy this is kind of taking control of you” and Dean is choosing to ignore it. We’ll see a lot more of that as the season progresses because (singsong) we know a few things that you don’t know… but uh I think it’s nice to flip the switch a little and to see ….
Jensen:well it’s a bit of a role reversal too
Jared ..yep…what ..
Jensen because you know back when the whole demon blood thing happened (Jared: yeah exactly) BUT, the one switch is that Dean was like ‘ok, well I’m going to do everything in my power I can to help him along and to protect him and to, you know to be there for him whenever he needs me and with this situation Sam’s the exact opposite he’s like ‘listen I’m not going to save you and that’s really …
Jared (to audience, Jared-style): Boo! Sam!
Audience: Boo!
(laughter)
No!!
We love you Sam!
Jensen: So that’s it I think that for Dean that’s been a very, very, jagged pill to swallow and he’s had to … he’s really kind of scraped the bottom of the barrel

(he goes on to describe what he calls the further bad decisions Dean has made, like working with Crowley)
I would say that the audience feedback was that they were much less willing to boo (and the booing was good natured) than the other two comments I recorded, but you can’t really tell from a recording.
I don’t have the video any more (I believe it was removed due to shipping wars resulting in one set of fans reporting the fan who posted it, to the convention) but, as I remember it, initially Jared believes that Jensen is reinforcing what he is saying about Season 4 (which is the 'yeah' and 'exactly') but then after the BUT he doesn’t say another word, just listens. I really think he was blindsided by Jensen’s interpretation of what was going on (though that is of course my interpretation) I certainly don’t think that what Jensen said is where Jared was going. In the afternoon panel Jared talked about how Sam said what he said (about not saving him (same circumstances™) ) because he was angry at Dean for what Dean did and because Dean refused to admit or recognize what the problem was.

Those two accounts do not show any indication that ANYONE is on the same page as to the purpose and point of the season. It’s no wonder we aren’t getting anywhere discussing it – I think the audience reaction is a microcosm of the confusion too.
Lisa1
# Lisa1 2014-07-07 18:44
This is lala2.

Thanks, Eilf, for finding that footage for me. I just don't know what to think b/c I know Jared said he doesn't like it when Sam is not a "good brother" to Dean. Maybe he didn't use those exact words but he said something similar. Did he look blindsided? From everything I've read, it would seem like both actors - Jared and Jensen - weren't too pleased w/the writing for Sam. I honestly think they both interpreted TP speech the way most of the audience (including myself) did. I watched some footage of the JIB Sunday panel w/Jared, and he believes Sam was angry w/Dean so he lied to him during that speech in TP. I think he also said he thought Sam did consider selling his soul to help Dean. I'd have to listen to the footage again, but I just think Jared wants Sam to be shown sacrificing for Dean just as much as Dean is shown to sacrifice for him. I think he's tired of some fans thinking Sam doesn't love Dean as much as Dean loves Sam.

Thanks again :)
PSG
# PSG 2014-07-07 01:54
Nappi sorry but I disagree and frankly since the season played out exactly as I expected I think my interpretation is spot on. Dean isn't nearly as needy, pathetic or awful as many here would like to believe. A hem.... Bad Boys showed us Dean thriving without his family. He stayed with them for Sam not for himself. His relationship with Benny was one of equals and extremely sympatico which is why Dean and many fans saw benny as the ideal brother. Nonetheless Dean loves Sam. Sadly because they are so different dean often gets the message that sam doesn't love him through actions like not looking for Dean in Purgatory , his passive aggressive body language starting
Road Trip and all of the nasty dialogue which changed weekly except for Sam's intent to punish/hurt his brother; an interpretation that Jared agrees with as well as Jensen. Dean may express disappointment with Sam's choices at times however he has never attacked Sam as a person or told him that he's poison and
that his entire life's work is a failure because he's fundamentally
selfish and afraid to be alone. As Alice said, this shows Sam's anger and also his inability to understand his big brother. It's not in dean not to save Sam. He will try even if everything he knows as a hunter and all the angels in heaven are telling him to kill his brother. The question I have is will sam make that same choice. Seasons 1-79-10 have many examples of Dean saving sam despite john 's dying words and despite whatever heaven and hell threw at them. I am curious as to what sam will do with a supernatural Dean. I hope that the transformation is permanent and it forces them both to grow up. I hope dean puts his needs first and I hope sam learns what it's like not to have a doting big brother.

Someone was complaining about dean lying. Yeah he's a liar; he does that. They're both liars, thieves and grifters. it's the hunters m.o. for goodness sake. And Sam runs away when he gets emotional. Sam lied to Amelia about who he was during their entire relationship. I am a bit confused as to what the significance of Dean's lying is.

Again this storyline is highlighting their core differences which leads to misunderstandin gs. Aside from personality differences their age at the moment of family trauma is key. As bad as the Oz episode was it reiterated that Sam never had a happy home and family to remember because he was too young when YED killed Mary. Dean did and it was traumatic. He fights the supernatural to protect others and save other families. Dean knows that demons caused his family to fall apart. Sam only knows the unhappy aftermath so it's no wonder that he views family and TFB as the problem.

Sam's attitude is understandable. Unfortunately on this show to run off and not fight is to be underpin. The nun's story in Mother's Little Helper emphasizes this. Garth trying to fill Benny's shoes, Charlie and Jody trying to hunt... these normal folks step up because they know what's out there. For Sam not to is unheroic within this universe. I am afraid that this was a lesson sam will learn. It was pretty clear from structuring and callbacks to earlier seasons that Sam doing the Trials was a bdh gesture to make up for not looking for Dean. The Trials was dean's stated goal in episode 1 of season 8 when sam wanted to do diddly squat. He took them on for Dean so dean wouldn't die BECAUSE HE DIDN'T SAVE DEAN IN PURGATORY. For the record I don't think dean was suicidal per se; he knew they were a death run and as usual dean was right.

I can't help but think one misses the point of the story when one is only interested in a single character looking white as snow. To each his own.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-07-07 02:38
Sam never asked for a 'doting' brother who went to absurd lengths to keep him close and alive . What Dean did was not 'doting' it was a personal need on Dean's part with very little thought put into Sam or the aftermath . I understand the idea that it was Sam's reaction that made Dean go off and get the MOC and therefore ended up a demon because that is the show and it is a easy way of Dean not really taking responsibilty , because we as a audience and by extension Dean can look at Sam . As for Dean being a demon permanently to learn to put his needs firsti? from my view point Dean does not need to stay a demon to do that he has whether it is admitted or not put his needs first on several occasion's and ones that affected Sam . My view of the season has not changed I do think Sam was used to push Dean to down a certain road with very little thought put into Sam and the aftermath for him , it was designed so we ended up with Demon Dean and Sam's terrible 'I lied' comment. So the onus has been put on Sam for Dean's decision to walk off the bridge and get the MOC despite the fact he hardly said anything and Dean preempted Sam's feelings and his own view. And we end up with what we did
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-07-07 03:09
Quote:
Nappi sorry but I disagree and frankly since the season played out exactly as I expected I think my interpretation is spot on.
not really. what you have told about what has HAPPENED in the show (i am not talking about your interpretations, we have different ones) but the chronology of the events in themselves are faulty.So when the chronology of the events are altered it is natural that you have different interpretation.Quote:
A hem.... Bad Boys showed us Dean thriving without his family. He stayed with them for Sam not for himself.
Yes?? and that factors here because?It may have been an episode in season 9 but in timeline it is preseason.Quote:
Sam as a person or told him that he's poison and
that his entire life's work is a failure because he's fundamentally
selfish and afraid to be alone.
Yes and the problem with this was?As far as this part goes listening to the dialogue of purge I do not know how you came to that conclusion.Yeah but I do think our interpretations are not the same.Quote:
Dean may express disappointment with Sam's choices at times
He has punched Sam.Quote:
he's fundamentally
selfish and afraid to be alone.
Because Dean is,as has been repeatedly shown in the shown.Quote:
I hope dean puts his needs first
He has many times in the show.You just refuse to see it.Quote:
I hope sam learns what it's like not to have a doting big brother.
He knows about this too.Quote:
Yeah he's a liar;
Yes ,but Dean is a tad better than Sam at that as he has lied about what he did to Sam.If Dean had lied to Sam about him taking on MOC it is Okay as it affects Dean.Dean can do whatever he wants to himself and lie about it.He has autonomy over his own body.How much ever he loves sam that does not give him autonomy over sam's body or the right to lie about something which is done to Sam by him.Quote:
The nun's story in Mother's Little Helper emphasizes this.
Actually it was sympathetic with her.It does show how unprepared she was to take on what she witnessed.All people cannot be strong in every situation.It showed her helplessness also.If she had done anything she would just be like Robb Stark in GoT.Quote:
For Sam not to is unheroic within this universe.
He has been a hero from the beginning.His choices are not the same as Dean I agree.But that does not mean he is not a hero.Quote:
I am afraid that this was a lesson sam will learn.
I sincerely hope not.Quote:
He took them on for Dean so dean wouldn't die BECAUSE HE DIDN'T SAVE DEAN IN PURGATORY.
He took them on for Dean because DEAN WAS SUICIDAL.Quote:
For the record I don't think dean was suicidal per se; he knew they were a death run and as usual dean was right.
Disagree.Quote:
I can't help but think one misses the point of the story when one is only interested in a single character looking white as snow.
The irony.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-07-07 08:06
I guess it's a case of agree to disagree here.
for the record I didn't say dean was needy or pathetic or awful. regarding bad boys, it showed for a brief amount of time that prior to embracing life as a hunter, dean, like every other kid in the world, wanted to be a kid. he got to do normal things and he didn't have the pressure that was put upon him. he got to experience normal things but when it came down to him being given a choice to stay, he chose not to...his father drove up with his brother and he chose to go with them. he didn't sacrifice, he went where he wanted to be. that's not a sacrifice...tha t's love. he chose his real family. he chose his brother, the one person in this world who makes dean feel good about himself. he chose his father, because his father was his hero, regardless of his issues later on in life. he needed these people because they needed him. the boys home didn't need dean. they didn't love him as his own family had. they didn't value him in the same way. at most the boys home offered him a different life, a life that dean apparently didn't want.

in regards to benny, I didn't see them as equals at all, but they did have some very negative factors in common which drew them together. their first encounter was one of emotional manipulation... basic blackmail. dean knew benny wasn't helping him out of the goodness of his undead heart and benny flat out told him the real reason for him wanting to be his "friend". dean was benny's ticket out, plain and simple. with dean dead, benny was stuck in purgatory...so benny stood by dean's side in purgatory and kept him alive...but not for one second do I think benny did what he did down there out of love for his friend. had benny not been told that dean was his way out, benny would've killed dean had he come upon him first. benny is a monster...it's what he does. so the common thread between benny and dean there is the use of emotional manipulation, which unfortunately dean has used on sam and even cas for that matter. the only other common thread shared by dean and benny was there appreciation for killing. dean has admitted to that twice in s8. he said it was pure down there. there was a freedom. benny told dean that he should've appreciated purgatory more the way he did, as he yearned for it once he got uptop. dean and benny formed a bond yes, but this wasn't a bond forged from love, trust or even friendship, as we know the way dean feels about monsters, it's very unlikely that had he met benny topside that they would've become best buds and it's more than likely dean would've chopped his head off. when dean and benny were together topside, dean was mostly worried about what benny had done. when they did meet up the first time, it was so benny can complete the job he's been wanting to get out of purgatory for in the first place...revenge ..killing his maker. once he did that, benny didn't really know what to do with himself. he was out of place and his yearn for wanting to feed was stronger than ever...hell, had the scene not been deleted in taxi driver, dean would've learned that benny had let dean down after all, because he had fed. dean wanted to believe that benny was the exception to the monster rule because dean needed to believe that. dean said that if benny killed and some other hunter got him, well that's the way it was, it was acceptable to dean that someone die which is in and of itself worrisome. dean just wasn't going to be the hunter to off him..i think it's very telling of how much dean had changed in purgatory and not for the better when he admits that it was basically ok with him if benny did kill someone. he was willing to take on that burden. not at any point when dean and benny were together did they do anything that would indicate a true friendship other than killing. hell, they didn't even have a drink together and just talk. so, no i'm afraid I don't see benny and dean being sympatico as a positive..imho it only accentuated the negative part of who dean believed himself to be.

there was no nasty dialogue between sam and dean weekly. sam was frustrated and hurt by dean's disregard of sam's feelings in sharp teeth because dean wanted to bury everything and sam wanted dean to deal with what he's done to him. there was no dialogue in road trip...sam never got to say anything to dean...dean walked away from sam, declaring he was poison. sam actually told him that wasn't the problem...when dean asked what that was supposed to mean, he didn't stick around long enough to give sam the chance to tell him. he just left. the conversation in the purge, which directly followed sharp teeth had sam again frustrated by dean's assertion that he did the right thing, not giving any regard to anyone else who was hurt or killed by his actions. sam told him that he would'n't have done things the same way, not that he wouldn't save him. again, dean hearing what he wants to hear instead of what's being said.

as Cheryl indicated, there wasn't an eppy that went by that sam wasn't saving dean or dean wasn't saving sam. emotionally they were isolated from ea. other, but they still worked and lived and talked about everything else but the elephant in the room.

sam never said dean was poison. dean said it. sam never said that everything he did was wrong. he said that because we're family isn't the cure all for all that's gone wrong between them, meaning that cuz we're family doesn't make their actions ok regardless of the consequences just because they are brothers. consequences matter. other people matter. sam learned this from his past mistakes, dean has yet to.

Jensen made a mistake at the con. he is so much like dean, that he actually remembers the words as dean would interpret them. but had someone corrected Jensen at reiterated the words and told him what was actually said, that sam wouldn't do it the same had situations been reversed, he might have realized that sam didn't say he wouldn't save dean at all. the fans react to dean, not to what is actually said...seems even Jensen falls into that trap as he's been doing dean for so long.

dean has punished sam through both words and physical action. dean has called sam a monster. he's told him he didn't believe in him. hes' told him he didn't trust in him. he's been known to blame sam for the apocalypse knowing full well that he was responsible as well, he threw away the amulet, he told sam that he only got in his ride to deceive him and he told sam benny was more of a brother than he's ever been. dean has said hurtful things too. and one can say that he had his reasons for saying them. sam had his reasons for saying what he said as well. he was trying to reach his brother. of course he's hurt and angry. of course words are going to be the way to reach out to his brother....but what sam said to dean...he was trying to get his brother to deal with what he'd done, which dean still hasn't been able to do as of yet.

i don't negate the boys have hurt and lied to ea other and to others..i have never painted sam as a saint. but in no way do i see sam as negating everything good his brother has ever done...he's never said anything like that.....it's dean who thinks that....it's dean who hears what he thinks he hears and not what's being said...just like he believed what he needed to believe in regards to cas in purgatory instead of what really happened. so what i'm saying is that there is an innate reason for dean's misconceptions. ..and that is his lack of self worth and how he sees himself. i still believe that this innate negative belief in himself is what essentially drives him to do the extreme things he does.

so again, it's just a matter agreeing to disagree here. ;)
Lisa1
# Lisa1 2014-07-07 18:51
As I keep mentioning, Jared also interpreted Sam's line that way. He said he doesn't like it when Sam doesn't support Dean. I don't know for sure, but I think he had major problems w/the writing of those speeches.

JMO.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-07-07 11:24
I think you might have some of your dialogue mixed up. It was Dean who called himself poison on the bridge. Sam had just regained control of his body at the end of Road Trip so he really was only able to look incredulous when Dean said he was taking off. Also, and this kind of proves a point I tried to make earlier, since the show is told from Dean's POV sometimes the audience hears what Dean hears and not what was actually said. The only reason that Sam said anything at the end of the Purge is because Dean said basically that Kevin's life was worth the sacrifice as long as Sam was alive. Sam pretty much strongly disagreed with that. He doesn't feel that his life is worth anymore than anyone else's as he told Castiel. I have great sympathy for Dean, I do understand why he did what he did. He couldn't let Sam die it really isn't in him. He could have trusted Sam a little more but he was afraid that Sam would drop dead right in front of him so he took a huge gamble. It backfired and not only was Kevin killed, Sam has that vision of his hands on Kevin frying his eyes out. As to your other points about Sam and Dean and who is the better brother it would have been nice if at the beginning of S8 we got a lovely montage as Dean got after Sam sacrificed himself about how Sam was dealing with Dean's death. But we didn't, we got Sam saying he thought Dean was dead but all Dean heard was you didn't look for me. We got Sam telling Amelia about Dean's death (off screen). And evidently a conversation that happened off screen between Dean and Sam that Sam alluded to at the end of SC about where he was coming from. As for who is the better brother? I'll have to go with Jensen on this one. For him and Jared it is about Sam and Dean, it is the core of the show, the reason they continue to do this show and the reason why many fans tune in every week. But everyone watches for their own enjoyment, fortunately there seems to be a lot of story and characters to have fun with.