So, did anything good happen in this episode? Well, maybe that Gadreel changed sides? Other than that, Castiel lost his followers, Tessa was killed, Sam was shut down and Dean…well, we are going to spend a lot of time talking about what happened to Dean.

Opinions on this episode have been passionate, and diametrically opposite. Many people loved it, seeing it as one of the best episodes of the season, while others considered it the last straw that literally ended their love affair with the show. I don’t seem to hold either extreme opinion. I enjoyed it well enough and certainly a lot happened to advance story lines. Curiously though, it didn’t have me on the edge of my seat, but I haven’t had a particularly strong empathetic response to the many of shows the last few weeks. That may be due to the writing. Several of you have shared my quizzical reaction to recent events, like deciding loyalties via a game of bowling, or going for humor when Castiel desperately sought a doorway to Heaven (this was the big lead into the finale. I should have been shocked by heartbreaking choices and dramatic events, not party rooms filled with balloons!). Maybe it’s me. I’ve become so accustomed to analyzing the scripts for threads that maybe I’ve lost my emotional attachment to the fate of the characters (I’m a little worried about that actually!). The gut wrenching cliffhanger will undoubtedly answer this question, though, and many of the other questions we have posed all season.

For the past eight months, we have worked hard to find evidence for theories and to read between the lines as to where the writers would take our beloved characters. Together we have tracked myth arcs, clues and threads, and we only have to wait a few more days to see where we were right and where we were wrong.

So once more unto the breach, dear friends.

New Evidence for Existing Threads

The Mark of Cain/ Addiction/ Brother’s Relationship

            “But you have to know with the mark comes a great burden. Some would call it a great cost.”

Dean is isolated. In comments last week, I said “The MoC is making [Dean] cold. He can be non-violent if that is what will get the job done; but he can also be mercilessly violent if that is faster... He doesn't care either way. Nor does he care about Sam's feelings right now, or maybe even Sam's safety, as your Poughkeepsie observations pointed out [not warning Sam of impending danger] and as the bleeding-out incident in A4 might have suggested. The brother's relationship is in danger because Dean IS changing (into the true bearer of the MoC), not because he WON'T change (to think of Sam as an equal partner).”

Dean stoic 0535

Dean’s addiction to the Blade and/or to violence has made him lose the capacity to connect to anyone or anything other than the Blade.  He unapologetically lied to Sam about bringing the First Blade with them to investigate the angel kills, then he berated Sam for being concerned. He publically flogged Castiel for his past mistakes in front of his followers. He was very fast to shed Sam during their investigation, sending him to “help” Cas follow Josiah’s trail in Colorado. He told Sam that not only aren’t they brothers, they aren’t a team. Dictatorship!??  It was clear that Dean now regards Sam as nothing more than a soldier who should take orders. The biblical Cain was isolated from everything he loved. The Supernatural Cain, though, didn’t stop loving Colette, so I never imagined Dean would stop loving Sam!

We saw the brother’s relationship completely break down once before. In season 4, Sam and Dean came to blows and went their separate ways in disgust and anger. Sam was convinced he was right and saw Dean as a weakness that would keep him from completing his mission. Even as he prepared for his final confrontation with Lilith, though, Sam had doubts and kept asking himself if he should reconcile with Dean. Sam might have been addicted and misguided, single minded and self-righteous but he still tried to convince Dean to see his point of view. He begged Dean to join him. This Dean doesn’t care about Sam or anyone else. Dean declared himself the dictatorial leader of Team Free Will. He told Flagstaff that “there are no other men like me”. He believes he has superior skills and is better off alone. The brothers have hit rock bottom again.


Dean is irrational.
Until “Stairway to Heaven”, I felt that Dean could still be rational when it served his purpose. That has changed.  Dean didn’t listen to Sam’s flawless argument about leaving the Blade home. Dean’s need to be with the Blade led to Tessa’s death, which started off the chain reaction of an ultimatum that he be punished, Castiel’s refusal to kill his friend, and the defection of Castiel’s entire army. The influx of venom Dean ingested from the Blade after killing Abaddon has robbed Dean of his logic, his self-control and his conscience. He is mindlessly violent, irrational, uncaring…soulless. There is a huge difference, though, between Soulless!Sam and Soulless!Dean. Sam was unfeeling. Neither positive nor negative emotions influenced his actions. Rather he was controlled by pure logic. Dean, however is subscribing to the version of soulless we were introduced to in “Mother’s Little Helper”. Sam theorized that everyone reacts differently to losing their souls. “Stairway to Heaven” showed us a Dean who is relentless and obsessed. I’m not even sure he needs a prey or a hunt anymore. He just longs for the kill. He tried to kill Gadreel even though, if kept alive, the angel who had betrayed Dean could be the turning point in the war for Heaven. Gadreel offered to spy for them. He knows the location of Heaven’s door as it is moved and he can deliver Metatron to them. Gadreel is the key to victory and an end to the angel war, yet Dean’s hate blinded him to the overriding need to let Gadreel live.


Dean longs for violence.
When I speculated about Dean becoming a stone cold killer, my vision was of a Dean who had no feelings – a Dean who wouldn’t hesitate to kill because he had no empathy or fear; a Dean who would masterfully overpower and kill his prey.  From that standpoint, this theory was correct and has been fulfilled. The Dean we saw in “Stairway to Heaven” has gone far beyond this, though. This Dean is past lost or addicted – he is corrupted. I never imagined Dean would combine pitiless hunting instincts with unbridled fury.  I imagined him killing Sam as an unemotional, calculated tactic because Sam stood between him and Dean’s prey, or unintentionally during a blinded rage of violence, or maybe even accidentally as foreshadowed by Cain killing Colette. I’m beginning to wonder now, though, if Dean might kill Sam purposely because the Mark’s violent insanity will magnify the resentment, hurt and confusion Dean feels toward Sam. Dean’s bloodlust escalates every time he uses the Blade. It increased again after the Blade killed Tessa. Once Dean kills Metatron, Dean’s drive for violence will be uncontainable. It will be almost equal to Cain’s reign of terror. Whatever circumstances and whatever his motivation, Sam is both Abel and Colette, and all indications are that Dean will try to kill Sam.

Dean’s fate. In “First Born” Cain said “…I killed [Abel]. Became a soldier of Hell – a Knight”. If Dean kills Sam purposely, out of rage or as a calculated casualty of war, would Dean complete the transformation from a killer whose soul is dead into a supernaturally charged force whose soul has been corrupted? In other words, will Dean become a demon, a Knight of Hell, just as Cain did?

…or will the shock of what he has done get through to Dean? Killing Colette forced Cain to stop himself by throwing the blade into the sea.  Dean’s self-hatred would probably drive him to a different action:

Dean will kill himself, either immediately before trying to kill Sam or immediately after he kills Sam.

Ironically, I believe this possibility was foreshadowed in “Stairway to Heaven”. The events of the angel war introduced the desperation of beings committing suicide. These angels were brainwashed, just as Dean has been brainwashed by the Blade. Tessa was also reintroduced into the plot. Tessa was present so many times before when Dean faced impending death that she is his omen of death. Then there were Dean’s own ominous words (to Tessa):
“Why are you doing this? What would make a person want to pop their top, huh? I mean look, I have been in bad shape, I have, but I have never been that damn low.”

I checked the dialog in “First Born” (9.11). We assume that the First Blade is the only thing that can kill Cain. He demonstrated that the demon knife didn’t affect him at all, and a millennia of demons and Knights were unable to end him. If this is true, Sam would not be able to kill Dean (since the First Blade is not powered-up in Sam’s hands). Cain also never said he couldn’t kill himself, but we assume that as well since he made Dean promise to come back and kill him. So either Cain didn’t have the ability or the will to kill himself. Would Dean be able to kill himself, though? This would put Sam in the exact circumstances Dean faced. When Dean wants to die, will Sam save Dean against Dean’s express wishes? Sam would have to confront his convictions of letting his brother die.  

I don’t know how Castiel’s dwindling grace will play into this scenario. I don’t know if he will be gone because he will be leading angels back into heaven, or if he will be too weak to stop Dean or save either brother. He may even be dead and watching events from the veil. In all cases, though, one or more of our heroes will either be dead or lost at the moment that season 9 ends.  

“I did what I had to do”

This theme was blatantly used again in “Stairway to Heaven”, first by Dean, then Tessa, then Metatron.

When Dean showed Tessa the First Blade, she was immediately appalled. She recognized it and asked:
Tessa: "Dean, what have you done?"
Dean:  "What I had to."
Tessa:  "Welcome to the club."

….then she killed herself. Did she do what she had to do to stop the screaming in her ears, or did she have to do it because she had been brainwashed to commit suicide?

Then when Metatron was giving his big speech to Castiel’s followers, Cas asked him:
Castiel:    “Who are you to lecture me on lying? Your deception led to the fall.”
Metatron: “I did what I had to do.  I have always done what I’ve had to do, for God and for the angels.”

One of our three heroes is going to do what he has to do in the finale, with I’m sure, dire and unpleasant consequences.


Gad look 0271

Hurray! Gadreel finally saw the light and switched sides! I wouldn’t exactly call it redemption, though. He didn’t express regret or seem remorseful for his past actions, but he did admit that he had “made mistakes” and he offered to put himself at risk to do the right thing. We discussed last week how Gadreel was still holding onto altruistic values, such as loyalty and honor. He really thought he had been conducting himself honorably, by dutifully carrying out orders that supposedly would lead to the restoration of Heaven. He thought he was serving his “original purpose”.  Metatron’s use of kamikaze squads pushed Gadreel too far, though. Gadreel was upset saying “You should have told me your plan. Tessa, Constantine – I recruited them and you brainwashed them into blowing themselves up….and what about Josiah?” Metatron acted without honor, deceiving angels, “brainwashing” them into sacrificing themselves and killing innocents. I don’t think Gadreel objected as much to their deaths as he did to Metatron’s dishonesty.  Castiel differentiated himself from Metatron by saying “I would never ask an angel to sacrifice himself to kill innocents.” In the end, Gadreel chose the right side. I hope he is still alive so he can help defeat Metatron.


-   Dean believes a demonic weapon can be used for good, i.e. the end of an unstoppable foe; just as Sam thought demon’s blood would be his weapon of righteousness to kill the oldest, most powerful demon they had faced.

-   Sam’s eyes turned black as he teetered on the verge of becoming a demon. He confessed that he didn’t know that would be the cost of using the blood. It seems inevitable that Dean’s fate is to become a demon, too and we will yet see his eyes turn black. He also didn’t know this would be his fate.

Will someone else turn out to be who they aren't supposed to be?

Suicide 0404

It turns out that Castiel’s organization was full of people who weren’t who they were supposed to be. Orin (sp?),  Tessa and Constantine were all working for Metatron without even knowing it themselves. Dean said Tessa “thinks she is [telling the truth]”. Then much later Gadreel confronted Metatron about “brainwashing” angels he had recruited. These angels were forcibly turned into something they weren’t. They were Metatron's elite squad, brainwashed into killing themselves for “Castiel”. Before being brainwashed, Orin was “full of life”. They said he was new, so he had probably been captured, brainwashed, then planted inside Castiel’s organization. Tessa was brought back to the story also, but only to kill her? I felt like I was watching Sarah die all over again. Besides foreshadowing Dean’s death as discussed above, though, Tessa’s presence also made the “elite” squad more relevant to us, because we knew Tessa and her convictions to play by the rules and always do her job. She was honest and worthy of trust. We knew that she wouldn’t be easily swayed by nonsense or empty promises, so her betrayal made Metatron’s brainwashing tactics more credible. Darn it, though. I really liked Tessa.

I predicted that the angel in the maroon suit, i.e. the “stuffy” angel, would be the spy in Castiel’s organization. It seems that I was wrong. Josiah confessed that “after Ezra, they told me that I should come to him. Metatron told me that I could go home. I just want to go home”, so it seems it was Josiah who betrayed Castiel. Who was Josiah, though? We never saw him before! No fair picking someone we had never seen before!

Josiah also said something else that was interesting. He said to Castiel “You play at being noble, play at being one of us, but I looked into your eyes, and I don’t see an angel staring back at me.” What did he mean? Did he see a celestial being who had broken free from the mindless obedience that is so typical of angels? Did he see someone who had been human, who knew free will, tough choices, struggles and triumphs? Did he see someone who was only partially an angel, because his grace was diminishing...or did he see something more, something greater than an angel? Castiel has been God’s favorite, resurrected inexplicably several times. Last week I introduced the theory that Castiel was playing the role of God’s son who became human to redeem the world. Was this another hint at Castiel as the Redeemer?

SPN 0479

Metatron also attacked Castiel’s identity when he said, “Cas? He is not what you think he is. He sends angels out to die. Have you told them about your stolen grace, Castiel? How it is fading away? And when it burns out, so will you?” Twice during the episode, characters emphasized that Castiel is not who they think he is, not who he is supposed to be. That is intriguing.

What is the significance of Castiel’s stolen grace (is it the key to reversing the angel banishing spell)?

“Stairway to Heaven” again mentioned the fact that Castiel seems to be running out of time. Metatron said Castiel will “burn out”. Does he mean Castiel will die, or that when his grace is fully depleted he will simply revert to being a human again? That is what happened when his own grace was stolen from him. So will our angel have do one last heroic deed before he loses his powers? Save Sam? Succeed in returning the angels to Heaven?

Threads on Hold (no new clues this time)


-   “You’ve [Sam] seen everything that he’s [Gadreel] seen”-

-   Is the Angel Banishing Spell Reversible – So far, it doesn’t seem that it is. Instead, angels might get back into Heaven through the secret passageway.

-   What did Crowley learn from the angel tablet? – Maybe about the back door to Heaven? Njspnfan said: “While the angel factions are fighting it out, it wouldn't surprise me if he made a back end run for heaven.”

Letting Go/Grief

Booklady pointed out that there was another example in “King of the Damned” of needing to let go of loved ones:  “Crowley's inability to let go of Gavin by returning him to his time and death on the ship to the colonies…There have been personal and hurtful consequences to Dean (and others) for not letting go of Sam and I think the same will happen with Crowley regarding Gavin”.  Thanks for catching that for us!

If we recall all the examples we have been shown of people not letting go of their loved ones, this thread may be one of the most dominant themes of the season:

-   Timmy’s mother from the veil
-   Kevin watching over Mrs. Tran from the veil
-   Mama stealing a substitute for her Alex
-   Jody grieving over her son and husband
-   Crowley changing time to save Gavin
-   Dean’s advice to Garth to never let go of the love of family
-   Dean’s advice to Timmy “You gotta let [the one you love] go. You’ll be OK. Sometimes you got to do what’s best for you even if it’s gonna hurt the ones you love”.  This was the same advice Sonny had given to Dean as a teenager.
-   Sam, Dean, Castiel, Gadreel and others needing to let go of pain, guilt and self-loathing

Will Sam let go of Dean in the finale?

New Themes (Storylines?)

Who is Kevin’s real father?
Female Hunters
Gavin’s Impact on Time


-   How did Gadreel get into the bunker? There is supposed to be only ONE KEY. I wondered if since he has been back to Heaven he has been recharged, i.e. got his wings back. Maybe Metatron “healed” Gadreel and he can fly again, and appear at will. He seemingly disappeared last week when Castiel was ambushed. Did he just “appear” in the bunker? He obviously knows its location. That makes more sense to me than he still had a key.

-   When Hannah said she had heard a lot about the Winchesters, Dean said “What can I say? Cas is a fan”. Do the writers suddenly have a pre-occupation with the dynamics of fandom?!

Sam sleeping 0057
Sam reflexes 0060

-   Sam sleeps in his clothes, even in his own room in the bunker? We need to start a charity drive: “Send Sam PJs” or better yet, “Send Sam Sleeping Shorts” (you notice I only suggest pants, not a top). If enough of you are in, maybe we do this over the hiatus. They could always give the shorts to a local charity!

By this time next week, we’ll all be in mourning for both our heroes and for us since we will be in Hellatus. So last chance to theorize. What do you think will be the conclusion of the season 9 Threads?

Screencaps courtesy of

References confirmed with


# njspnfan 2014-05-17 20:38
Nightsky - nice threads article for an episode that has invoked strong reactions all around.

what can kill Cain? Did Lucifer create the Mark of Cain and First Blade? If so, Lucifer can be killed by an archangel's blade, so would it make sense that Cain could be killed by an archangel's blade, too?

Metatron will somehow raise the stakes, maybe threatening the humans in the veil? He's not a big fan of humanity, either. It sounds as though the angel story is going to stretch in to S10 so they've got to do something to raise the stakes; most angels in S9 have no personality, and Metatron started out as a good villain but is becoming somewhat cartoonish; I hope they fix this if he hangs around.

Just guessing here, by Dean goes after Metatron but can't kill him with the First Blade, and that starts to drive him insane? Dean's usually a pretty smart guy, but not at the moment.

Not sure I'd categorize Dean as being brainwashed by the First Blade; he's behaving more like a drug addict, the more he uses the First Blade, the better he feels. Maybe the Velvet Underground song "Heroin" in 9.16 Blade Runners was meant for Dean as well as Crowley's blood addiction?

How did Gadreel get in the bunker? That bugged a lot of people, including me, because they keep emphasizing how safe/secure the bunker is. If you recall, Castiel was able to get in the bunker in 9.10 Road Trip as well. I'd be concerned about Metatron getting in as well. Or, maybe Sam ran down to the Home Depot and made copies of the key :)

Not sure how the brother dynamic is going to play out, or whether Dean tries to kill Sam or vice versa, because we really haven't been given a clear sense of what Sam is thinking, and the whole possession issue is getting whitewashed. I do hope something gets resolved in this episode, though.
# percysowner 2014-05-18 12:03
About the bunker being able to be accessed by Gadreel. Yes, at one point there was only one key, but I can buy that there were duplicate keys inside the bunker. Lord knows I have like 4 copies of my house keys in various places to make sure I don't get locked out. Frankly multiple MOLs and only one key never made any sense. So, I'm going with copies of the keys and Gadreel snagged on and hid it as he left the bunker after killing Kevin. IRC Naomi visited the bunker last season and told Dean she knew he hadn't warded it against angels because he wanted Cas to be able to come there. Since Cas is in there, we at least know that there are no angel wards.
# njspnfan 2014-05-18 12:09
that's as reasonable an explanation as I've heard...
# CeeJay 2014-05-19 04:53
Naomi didn't show up at the bunker. She appeared at Garth' houseboat which was warded against demons (to keep Crowley from snagging Kevin and the other half of the Demon Tablet) but not angels, to probably allow for Cas to come as you said correctly. So I really like Nightsky's theory that Gadreel must have taken one of the keys that they probably found in the Bunker. In Slumber Party, Dorothy (although she phoned in first with the wrong password) just walked right in without the MoL coming to open the door. There have to have been more than one.
# cheryl42 2014-05-17 21:56
# Alice 2014-05-17 23:04
Yeah, I got thread for discussion. Why is Sam driving Castiel's car? Wouldn't you want the angel driving? It's not like he gets tired or anything. Sorry, that's been nagging at me for a few days. :)
# iamsam1013 2014-05-18 00:12
Dean didn't let him drive in Road Trip either.
Are You Kidding?
# Are You Kidding? 2014-05-18 03:35
Possibly because both Dean and Sam are likely to be significant better drivers than Cas? I would like to know when Cas got the time to take out the pimp lift-kit, but I guess the car being funny was a one-off, like so many of the one-off gaffes in the last 2 seasons. Cas forgetting that he was married for six months, that he'd been human, utterly without his powers before, to the point that Bobby had to wire him money for a bus and he was plagued by an itch ... yet apparently he needed lessons in how to stir a cup of coffee. Funny! Not.

The writer who forced the "flawless argument" onto Sam seemed to forget that they're hunters entirely. The Impala's trunk is full of weapons precisely because they might be needed at any time, not a five-fifteen hour drive from now. It would certainly be a jolly moment if Metatron turned up and the Blade was sitting in the bunker. Whatever.

The entire key debacle wouldn't be an issue if any of the writers had paid attention to the canon set out when the bunker was first mentioned:
"In the box is the key to every object, scroll, spell ever collected for thousands of years under one roof. It is the supernatural mother lode ... Because it is the safest place on earth, warded against any evil ever created. It is impervious to any entry, except the key."
That's not ambiguous. Crowley shouldn't have been able to enter the bunker. The implication is clear. One key. The entire concept of 3 people living there with one key is not that difficult to work out - whoever was in the bunker was stuck in the bunker until the other(s) got back. There is another entrance to the bunker, the garage entrance, unless of course fans think Dean drove the car through front door and down the staircase? What the story is with that is anyone's guess since the writers REFUSE to explain anything they introduce. They could've spent 60 seconds covering the nature of the doors and wardings to the bunker, but they chose not to in case it boxed them in. Instead, they produce inconsistencies , which any viewer who is following the "storyline" carefully and looking for clues as to the shape of things to come will pick up instantly. And have picked up.

Although the key is a very minor point, as stated in another thread, what it does is make the viewer wonder at the consistency of the rest of the writing. If the writer can forget this, might not he also forget about more important things, or might he write something purely for melodramatic effect instead of thinking things through?

Personally, I would put Kevin's father, Gavin's impact on Time and most of the speculations into the "Will Be Forgotten" basket. I think it's pretty safe to say that the demon tablet and the angel tablet can go there too, since every prophet was destroyed and only a prophet can read the tablets. Even Metatron didn't claim to be able read what he wrote, he remembered the contents of the tablet from writing it.

A spell "to seal Heaven" but leave a back door isn't much of a spell, in my opinion. It's a pretty big stretch of logic that those in the Veil must go through the Pearly Gates when an angel or angels can come and go via their portable hole. Still. Whatever. It also seems that it might differ from the actual trials laid out on the tablet, although at this late stage, I severely doubt it.

The only "significance" to Cas' stolen Grace seems to be a threat to Cas' health. Still no indication other than Metatron saying "when it burns out, you will too" or words to that effect, that it will do more than return Cas to a human state. It might burn him out literally, ie kill him. It might not. Since MC is signed for next season, that could go either way. Cas as an angel is big nuke. Cas as a human ... well, all they've really done with Cas in the last 2 seasons is turn him into quasi-comic relief. I sincerely hope that's not his fate.

As for the speculations about Dean, his personality and his "soullessness" I haven't seen anything shown in the episodes that supports most of them. Dean was isolated before he took on the Mark. His concern over Jody didn't exactly scream "I don't give a damn". When Crowley passed on the Poughkeesie remark, he made sure that Sam wasn't with him when he confronted Abaddon, not ,in my view, to keep Sam out of the action but to protect him, either from the demons he expected to there, in case he failed with Abaddon or from himself. Could've been all three. The writing of the exact effect of the Mark is murky, not I suspect deliberately so, but because the writers cannot decide on exactly what those effects are ... is he angry? Cold? Indifferent? Driven? Scared? All of the above? Does the Mark seep through like poison and affect his emotions? His thinking process? Dean hasn't shown signs of irrationality in my view. Keeping the Blade with him was a hunter's instinct, not an irrational response to something he needed - he was more irrational about the blade he called Purgatory than he has been about the First Blade ... in my view.

I'd love to put faith in the writers and believe that what is shown comes with some kind of purpose and meaning. So far, however, I don't see a purpose. I see a bunch of people who write in the "And then!" mode, coming up with ideas and throwing them in without consideration for whether they will work, will be resolvable, will fit the characters as they were developed and when an idea proves undesirable or unworkable or just plain old boring, they jettison it without a moment's explanation and scream out "AND THEN!" once again.
# debbab 2014-05-18 10:18
Are Sam and Cas the new partnership now so Sam takes the lead and drives since Dean is in love with the blade? If Cas loses his borrowed grace and Sam loses Dean to the blade or heaven or hell- he's gonna need a brother. I feel Metatron will be resolved in the finale but that the relationship between Sam and Dean shifts again as a set up for season 10. IMHO the writers have opted to not put in as many "feels" so that the viewership can really experience the angst between the brothers and Dean's shift. His focus is on a mission, not Sam, due to the blade. So many similarities to demon blood Sam and soul-less Sam, but Sam had Dean to save him. IMHO Sam loves his brother, just not the deceit that continues to rear its ugly self. Finale...get the tissue.
# cheryl42 2014-05-18 12:20
Sorry when I click on a comment sometimes I don't pay close enough attention to where it is taking me. As soon as I realized where I was I deleted my comment. I was just rambling but it didn't belong here. This thread is always my favorite. Everyone comes up with creative scenarios and explanations for the little details.
# E 2014-05-17 23:49
Isn't that Sam's pimpmobile from season 5?
# njspnfan 2014-05-18 08:22
Nope, Sam's car was a 4 door Continental; Castiel's pimpmobile is a 2 door.
# E 2014-05-18 10:19
# iamsam1013 2014-05-18 00:18
There's got to be more than one way into that bunker. I don't think it would have been possible for 3 people to live there with just one key. There must be another way in, and of course Gadreel would know from his time with Sam.
# cheryl42 2014-05-18 00:26
Sam never gets to drive.
Gadreel took off in Sam's body. Since he had just come back from a beer run probably still had a key.
And yes I think that is the same car Sam had in S5
Sorry Alice wrong thread that is why I deleted it.
# PENNY JAIME 2014-05-18 02:31
Damn it! I wish I hadn't read this. Of all the scenarios I thought about, I never thought about Dean killing himself. Now, if it happens, I won't be surprised. I don't get why people were so upset about this episode. Or this season for that matter. I think it is amazing that they still keep coming up with creative stories after all these years. So it's not perfect. Nothing is perfect. It is still fantastic; and the best show on tv. They can still surprise me; and that I never get tired of seeing.
# nightsky 2014-05-18 12:40
;) Sorry PennyJaime! Keep in mind these are only my speculations! I probably read fewer spoilers than all of you, so that my theories are not influenced by outside opinions. I have no insider info (in this case) so I could be wrong. Just keep repeating that to yourself and you'll feel better! (also read my spoiler below...)
# Lilah_Kane 2014-05-18 04:15
Nice threads,

especially loved the Dean intake. My mind is already blank and I am just eagerly waiting the next episode. Can't even think about where this is going because I think others have already thought of everything I would. None of them are positive than the only one that the brothers talk it out but it is too late. (insert: something shocking happens) Well, close to positive? :D

Anyway, Gadreel getting in the bunker is no biggy. He knows where it is and he has angel powers. Men of letters didn't know about angels so how could they ward it even against them? So, maybe he just popped inside. That is the easiest reason on my opinion. Dean regards the bunker as their home so I can imagine he was so furious Gadreel dared even to come there. Giving more power to the mark.

Sam being clothed on the other hand. I think he just crashed to bed as it was like two hours when they got home. Having the gun ready... Either he is used to that from all the times sleeping in the hotels/inns that he needs to be ready for everything or the other that he is scared about Dean. I rather take the first possibility.

Gavin in this century is so biting everyone in the behind but we will see how that will go.

The actors are taking the up fronts and cons at the moment and they seem really happy and positive about the outcome of the final and beyond.

So can't wait.

Sorry for the short reply, but yeah like I said. All possibilities have been said already. :)

- Lilah
Are You Kidding?
# Are You Kidding? 2014-05-18 05:48
Men of letters didn't know about angels so how could they ward it even against them?
Um ... well, there was the little matter of Henry needing an angel's feather to use for a spell to travel through time, but we'll just forget about that, shall we?

There is no question, however, that the bunker isn't warded against angels. Cas has been in there numerous times. The question is if, as stated it is impervious to any entry, except the key, even an angel couldn't pop in. Cas never popped in or out of the bunker. He walked in and out through the door whether he was fully charged or not. There was one questionable moment in S8 when he and Dean returned to the bunker to see Kevin about the angel tablet, and I can't remember if they zapped in or out or not, but that too would render the canon about it being impervious wrong.

The question is not ... how did Gadreel get in. The question is ... are the writers aware that if they break their own canon, the viewers regard what they say forthwith as garbage and they kill any tension. If the bunker, for example, is NOT impervious to any entry except the key, if angels or demons can pop in or out at will, it's not exactly a safe-hold anymore is it?
# cheryl42 2014-05-18 08:48
Maybe it is only impervious to entry by evil. Since angels aren't evil ;) and it seems the MOL had some sort of interaction with them I would suppose that they could enter. Angels seem to be able to enter places that demons can't unless it is warded against them. Like I said Gad took off in Sam's body after he just back from a beer run. I assume he had a key to get in since supposedly angels couldn't transport after the fall.
# njspnfan 2014-05-18 11:24
I think the MOL knew about angels but didn't interact much, if at all, with them. Early on, when angels were first introduced, Castiel said that angels hadn't walked among humans for 2000 years. Obviously, with the existence of a Nephilim in S8, we know that at least one angel interacted with a human :)
# cheryl42 2014-05-18 11:39
Hmm... I see a future spinoff. ;)
# njspnfan 2014-05-18 12:15
I guess that would give new meaning to the phrase "Touched by an Angel" :)
# nappi815 2014-05-18 07:19
hey lilah,

given the title of the you believe in miracles? I myself am not so quick to count out the scenario in which nobody dies and sam does in fact reach dean through words...

I guess because the word shocking was used my hopes lie in the brothers not dying as the brothers dying at the end has been done before so nothing new or shocking there. the idea of dean or sam killing themselves...we ll that's been done as well. sam jumped in the in a way, he kind of killed himself:p dean selling his soul, not allowing sam to save him, he kind of killed himself...:o

the boys dying by any means and coming back.....done done done...oh did I mention it's been done ?:D:p

I think the shocker would be confrontation between sam and dean...not a violent one, but a time to deal with some of this crap one... maybe with a few punches thrown in just so sam can get his point across...beatin g dean with love...I can do that ;)

to me that would be the I believe that's possible, well i'm an optimist, so yeah I do. will I be disappointed if it doesn't, maybe a little but not so much that I would sink into any sort of depression::p

I can't help but also wonder if Crowley might play a part in actually helping...that too would be a miracle because he wouldn't do it necessarily for his own gain, but because of his own the coming attraction Crowley explains to dean the negative effect of the blade and I wonder if dean learning that is meaningful...

maybe it's possible as well that sam just doesn't go off to his room and sulk. maybe when dean tells sam this is a dictatorship that's a red flag for sam. so he doesn't go off to his room in a sulk, maybe he goes to his room to do some research. maybe another miracle is that sam knows or does more than we have been led to think he's been doing and he is able to somehow pull a hail mary pass at the end....

another way it could go that is close to being same old same old, but with a slight difference, would be if sam got hurt, not killed, by another's hand in front of dean, and that got through to dean. dean does have this thing where he's the only one who can lay hands on his brother:p like Lucifer in regards to Michael in swan song..

the title alone gives me hope that they know something we don't and all is not as lost as it might seem to be. ;)

I dare not make any assumptions about this week's finale....but I haven't lost any faith in carver's ability to tie it all together;)
# Lilah_Kane 2014-05-18 07:50

mostly I don't dare predict what the shocking thing is. Like you said dying has been done like times 10 already so... I hope you are right Nappi!

- Lilah
# amyh 2014-05-18 07:48
what if sam devises a plan to save Dean...except Dean can not be saved until he becomes demonic. Wait...we have to manipuloate events so Dean becomes demonic and then save him? So.....Dean completely becomes demonic by fulfilling the Marc of Caine...i.e. killing Able.....AKA SAm. So Sam and Cas plans...let Dean kill Sam, Cas ressurects Sam and tghen Sam cures a demonic Dean.

Question? What happens if Dean dies under the MOC? Does he go to Hell or purgatory? What if Dean is unsaveable so the boys...Sama dn Cas do the only thinkg they can. Send Dean to purgatory where Dean can kill to his hearts content without hurting anyone. They'e already sent word too Benny. Sam adn Cas then take up the mantel of hunting things, saving people for season 10 until they can find a way to save Dean
# E 2014-05-18 10:31
Question? What happens if Dean dies under the MOC?
I don't think Dean CAN die under the Mark of Cain; otherwise Cain would probably have offed himself millennia ago or at the very least after Collette died. I got the distinct impression that once Cain had the Mark that he couldn't die; why would he ask Dean, wearing the mark, to come back and kill him?
# nightsky 2014-05-18 10:50
I really struggled with the question of whether Cain could die, that is why I went back and read the entire transcript from First Born. Cain never said he can't die. That led to our initial speculation that the "great cost" was immortality - except if killed by the blade. Well if someone else can kill you with the blade and Mark combo, why couldn't Dean and Cain kill themselves? Cain never said he tried. We are making assumptions , but the canon hasn't actually been established.
# njspnfan 2014-05-18 11:22
I was under the impression that Cain was immortal but could by killed by the First Blade by the holder of the Mark of Cain. I don't think they established in the Supernatural lore why Cain was immortal; was that the price he paid for killing his brother? We know the bible version(s) of his immortality but do we know the Supernatural spin on it?
# tvmonkey 2014-05-18 13:19
Which means Dean probably cant commit suicide. I seriously doubt that Cain would have needed Dean to come and kill him if he had been able to just do it himself. So with Dean not being able to off himself (which to me would be yet another slap in the face for Sam fans) Sam is going to have to either use his words to get through to Dean (repeat of last season and well not totally unexpected as the writing has been heading towards Sam conceding that Dean was right for the entire season) or Sam will have to kill Dean somehow. I've heard Sam cries on Dean's shoulder (or maybe that was Jared and Jensen) so Dean 'dying' seems possible. The miracle will be Dean begin brought back by Gadreel as part of his redemption. As for the shocking consequences I have no idea. My guess is we're in for another Dean heavy season next year and Sam wont come out of this season smelling of roses even if he does somehow manage to save Dean.
# mary9930 2014-05-18 08:37
Nightsky, I love your theory about Dean trying to kill himself & Sam confronting his convictions about letting his brother die. Then as nappi815 mentions, they finally talk about all this. Cain killing Colette & her dying wish made him throw the blade away. Maybe Dean almost killing Sam will be the trigger to Dean wanting to kill himself. I'm not sure Dean wouldn't rationalize everything he's done so far as necessary. It would take something more I think.
# tvmonkey 2014-05-18 13:22
Wouldn't Dean killing himself be the cowards way out? Wouldn't he be giving up and selfishly leaving his brother behind? Thats not a hero's ending is it? Words I read over and over in regards to Sam when he was dying in the season premier and wanted to move on.
# eilf 2014-05-18 10:54
For a long time my theory has been that Dean is going to find himself at the point where he kills or tries to kill Sam. And that Sam would be willing to let him. Because Dean would need to kill Sam to make the blade fully operational to kill Metatron, and because Sam feels like his life is not more important than other people's (and because Sam also feels/realises that he can only be at peace (ie die) on Dean's terms). But that doesn't really solve anything nor is it that satisfying as a storyline for both characters.
So, slight variation: Dean still loses it completely, Sam still tells him it is ok, if that is what he needs to do. Dean realises for the fist time in his life (because he is an idio ... because his life has screwed him up ...) that YES (for crying out loud) Sam will also do absolutely anything for him. And so he manages, the way Sam managed in Swan Song (because, like, Sam can do anything if it is to save you, Dean as long as you let him), to overcome this awful power that is trying to overwhelm him to kill his brother. He defeats the blade (which is what Cain did with Colette, and is like what Sam did putting himself back together and coming out of a coma to be there for Dean).

Dean is amazing, he has defeated one of the strongest powers in the world! Awesome victory for Dean in the mytharc.

But it leaves them with the situation that Dean can no longer ever kill anything. He still has the mark which HE will be in charge of but only while he resists the temptation.

Not a cliffhanger, but the show won't work if Dean can't kill things so that leads into a whole new season of how do we solve a problem like Cain? (especially considering Dean owes Cain one killing too).

Dean lives. Sam lives. Castiel lives. Metatron probably lives. Gadreel probably doesn't.
Dean defeats his inner demons, his own worst enemy that he is.
Sam gets a win, and finally has managed to save Dean from himself, which is really what they have both needed since Trial and Error and longer.
The brothers get to believe in each other (freaking finally),
there is crying and hugs.
Yay ;)
# nightsky 2014-05-18 11:26
I LOVE your scenario, which made me decide to post Jared's comments below. OH LET IT BE SO!
# eilf 2014-05-18 11:33
I have found the past couple of seasons slightly frustrating does it show? :(;)

Please, Show be there for me!
# nightsky 2014-05-18 10:56
Spoiler Alert:

I was only fearing dire endings in the finale, until I read Jared's comments from Asylum yesterday. He said he feels the same way about the brothers as we all do, and he thought the ending was "really cool" and that we would cry! That made me really hopeful that there is a GOOD ending. That would definitely be something the writers have NEVER done before! I suddenly feel good about the last episode!
# nightsky 2014-05-18 11:22
I need to open a question to the collective:

I have a vague memory of Crowley (I think, or maybe Cas?) making a snarky remark about the boys needing to ward the bunker against angels. I thought he said something like "you'll let anyone in here". I can't find it in superwiki, but their bunker files are incomplete. Does anyone else remember something like this? If you even remember a specific episode, I can look it up in the transcripts. I want to get the exact quote if there is one to help our bunker debates.
# cheryl42 2014-05-18 11:29
Was that when Cas and Dean went to the dungeon to get Crowley's help to find Sam/Gad? Road Trip?
# njspnfan 2014-05-18 11:48
Nightsky - I don't recall anything like that; last season, when Naomi dropped in on Dean at the safe-house boat, she made mention of the fact that they hadn't warded against angels, but that was the safe-house boat and not the bunker.
# nightsky 2014-05-18 12:52
Now that you give me these choices, I think is was Naomi talking about the houseboat! No wonder I couldn't find it. I had transferred it in my mind to be the bunker. That has been bugging me for a few weeks. Thank you for putting me out of my misery! (I saw Percysowner mentioned it above too)

OK, then I have to go with (1) bunker isn't warded against angels (no problem here with Castiel being a regular house guest) and (2) Gad had an extra key or he got his wings repaired by either Metatron or his own visits to Heaven through the secret door. Head Canon to the rescue.
# njspnfan 2014-05-18 12:57
percysowner also brought up a perfectly valid explanation; that there were spare keys left behind in the MOL bunker.
# njspnfan 2014-05-18 11:53
Are you referring to 9.03 I'm No Angel, when Castiel came back to the bunker, and Zeke popped out to tell Dean that Castiel couldn't stay, that he would bring the angels down on them? And that Bartholomew was massing a force and they couldn't stand an incursion?
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-05-18 11:31
Another theory, Sam 'kills' Dean. Perhaps to save him, perhaps because he believes if he doesn't then Dean will end up going fully darkside, perhaps to save others etc. We know that Dean won't die, obviously, possibly because of the MoC or maybe because Sam is a bad shot, and the final show of the series shows a demon eyed Dean.
# njspnfan 2014-05-18 12:14
or maybe they brothers make up, Sam goes out to pick up dinner and actually remembers to bring back pie; now that would truly be a miracle.
# tvmonkey 2014-05-18 13:38
Gonna take a lot more than one episode for the brothers to get back anything they had before. Dean didnt forgive Sam at all for the whole of season 5 and arguably still harbors resentment for anything he deems Sam has done against Dean over the years, so I hope this season isnt just washed away. I expect a long hard redemption arc for Dean and I expect Sam to be weary when trying to fix things with Dean. I'd really like to see what they have in store for Sam next season. If Carver wants to end and fix the co-dependency he might actually have to write Sam as a character outside of Dean and I'm hoping to see Sam delve more into the MOL and build relationships of his own.
# njspnfan 2014-05-18 13:47
Agreed... can't argue with that.

I think that's why this arc, which has many parallels to Sam's S4 demon blood addiction, just hasn't worked as well (though Jensen has done a great job with what he was given to work with). In S4, Sam's story played out in the background; you knew something was up, but it was still shocking when we saw him drink demon blood for the first time in "On the Head of a Pin". Dean's Mark of Cain arc has played out front and center.
# E 2014-05-19 09:01
I agree njspnfan. Part of the problem I am having with the MoC storyline is that its been so in our faces yet seemingly lacks detail at the same time. Sam's demon blood addiction was more of a mystery, and even though that irritated a lot of people at the time, it's benefits from a storytelling aspect in creating tension are obvious. We didn't know for sure WHAT Sam was doing for a long time in season 4, and then we weren't sure (I wasn't anyway) if what he was doing was good or bad. Sam's powers' were actually used as a double blind to conceal that what he was REALLY doing was enhancing those powers through drinking Demon blood. When that revelation came to light, it was truly shocking. And Sam's arguments that he was trying to "take this curse and make something good out of it, because I have to" had merit and I felt for him. It gave each brother a solid argument so that their conflict seemed organic and logical. With Dean, it's pretty clear that having the MoC is a bad thing (unless there's a sudden 11th hour reversal of some sort), and Dean hasn't really questioned having it or what it's doing to him, at least not yet, and his arguments for having it and using the blade seems pretty weak in light of how obviously evil it all is. Sam has been given so little POV that he hasn't really had a stance to argue with Dean about having the blade and so he hasn't, which basically has made him look unobservant at best and uncaring at worst. It's also means that there's been almost no direct conflict between the boys over the mark, at least not until episode 22, and it seems pretty late in the game for Sam to object now. Furthermore, the build up of Dean's reliance on the blade has been so sporadic that its been hard to tell exactly how the mark is effecting him until recently. This past episode actually did a better job of drawing attention to Dean's actions and making it clear that they were a direct result of the blade than any of the previous episodes, and finally, FINALLY, Cas and Sam seem more aware that there is a problem, although I am still underwhelmed by their reaction. There's been a pretty sudden shift IMO between "is there really any problem here" and "we have a huge problem here," and the transition has been a little jarring to say the least. If you look back at season 4, suspicion about what Sam had been up to while Dean was gone was established, at least for the audience, in episode 1. By episode 4 (my much loved Metamorphosis) Dean is all over Sam's case about his powers and the path he's on etc…but it isn't until On The Head of a Pin that we find out what Sam's really been up to; that's a 16 episode spread of build up, of details and tid-bits that created excruciating and effective tension. I realize that Dean wasn't introduced to the blade until episode 11, but episode 12 should have had some solid movement on it's effects and it didn't. Episode 15 had a great setup for marking Dean's changing attitude when he coldly killed the Thinman, a bad guy sure, but still a human which made the act quite shocking and in direct violation of Winchester Rules of Hunting. Sam comments on this seemingly huge and relevant development in the most vague and unconcerned way, and Dean doesn't comment on it at all. The guest stars could have been used to comment on the act as well, to great effect, but they didn't either, rendering a potentially important plot development null and void. If the show is not going to draw parallels between plot points and the character's behavior then how are we, the viewers supposed to? Now all of a sudden Dean is off the rails without a proper build up and Cas and Sam are FINALLY coming around in a way that they should have been doing for the past 4 or 5 episodes. I will say, after seeing episode 22 (late, as it was preempted in NY by BASEBALL :() that I actually feel more now for Dean than I have in the past 11 episodes. Strange given that his behavior was so reprehensible in this episode; but it's extremeness actually had the effect of making me care more rather than less. Maybe I'm weird.
# Lynn 2014-05-18 11:36
Love your thoughtful analysis here. I agree with much of it and join you in the speculation - however, while I think the Mark has made Dean violent and unpredictable and essentially an addict, I don't think that implies that he doesn't love Sam. Addicts often behave as though they don't care about anyone else, but once they're not under the influence, they're overcome by guilt and regret because their emotions are still there, just pushed aside by the irrational and powerful influence of the addiction. I think Dean sent Sam to the basement instead of after Abbadon both to protect Sam and to make sure he 'did what he had to do' as far as Abbadon. His rage at Sam is an indication that the hurt (and thus the caring) are still very much there, underneath. How underneath? I guess we'll find out shortly..... Somebody be ready with therapy!
# tvmonkey 2014-05-18 13:29
Well given the promos for the finale show Dean beating the shit of Sam because Sam tries to stop him from going after Metatron? That really doesn't say caring to me. If they go from that to Sam crying on Dean's shoulder in the end after conceding that Dean was right and Sam would do anything for Dean then I just give up.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-05-18 13:39
Apologies, forgot the spoiler alert.

SPOILER: I think that's Metatron (or someone) throwing Dean, not Dean beating Sam, in the promos.
# njspnfan 2014-05-18 13:39
*** SPOILER ALERT *** Are you referring to the CHCH promo? That's a cleverly edited promo; it wasn't Dean throwing Sam against the wall, it was another scene with Metatron throwing Dean against the wall.
# iamsam1013 2014-05-18 21:23
I have a theory. It may be way out in left field, but I think it is kind of cool. The finale is episode 9.23, right? I took a look at Mark 9:23 and its context. It is about an evil spirit being cast out. Verse 23 says, " All things are possible to him who believes.” Do you believe in miracles? I have no idea how this miracle may come about, but I believe it just might happen!
# Sharon 2014-05-20 10:51
I have to disagree that Sam's argument about leaving the blade in the bunker was "flawless" because what happens if they run into Metatron? They can't say "oops, timeout, we didn't bring our weapon to kill you. Let us run back to our secret bunker and get it first, okay? Thanks."

I do think Sam is going to kill Dean. I'm not sure how the brotherly bond is going to go, but since both brothers have said and done harsh things, I need both, not just one, to apologize.