As one of the season’s final episodes, “King of the Damned” contained the dramatic conclusion of the Crowley vs. Abaddon storyline. The scene was powerful, intense and brilliantly acted. It contained great special effects and the end of a diabolical, major character.
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If I’m completely honest, though, for me this episode was rather anticlimactic. I know I’m in the minority here, but I found “King of the Damned” to be an unsettling string of slow exposition narratives jarringly followed by an intense action scene. I’m not saying the show was bad, just oddly paced.  Dean and Abaddon’s stunning battle was preceeded by nearly an entire episode of methodical dialogue that both advanced parallel stories and introduced new storylines. The mood of the first 43 minutes of the show (I timed it) was entirely different (for me) than the mood of the long-anticipated fight with Abaddon, which from beginning to end was only four minutes long. The war for Hell? At one point in the show, Abaddon and Crowley sat in armchairs in front of a fire, having a cocktail and sharing a “moment” about the slow-wittedness of Crowley’s son.
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How very civilized of them. A few minutes later, chamber music played while Gavin read the newspaper, again sitting in front of a fire with his dad.
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This was the set up for the triumph of good over evil? Sorry, but Crowley was still sitting in his armchair during the big showdown! Okay, he had been shot so he was slumped, not sitting, but you can’t deny he wasn’t exactly “fighting” for his throne! The scene of Dean finding the power of Cain to overcome and kill Abaddon has to be one of the best scenes of the series, but it felt like it was tacked onto the end of story hour. Instead of being on the edge of my seat anticipating  the epic battle, I had been soothed into a cerebral state of mind by cunning psychological “interrogations”, lenghty explanations of time travel, and diplomatic angel negotiations. I was thinking, rather than feeling, which made the whole episode somewhat anticlimatic for me. I felt like Sherlock Holmes, dispassionately examining a scene as an unattached observer. Did anyone else experience that, or was I just having a weird night? I don’t mean to be a downer because I’ll take Emo!Sam and Supercharged!Dean every day of the week, and I’m not saying I didn’t like the episode, but it just didn’t grab me tight and never let go the way so many others have.

All that aside, though, it was full of answers and more than it’s share of teasers, so let’s get started!

New Evidence for Existing Threads

The Mark of Cain/ Addiction/ Brother’s Relationship / “I did what I had to do”

First things first – There is no doubt that Dean’s kill scene was epic! Who didn’t love the wind blowing through the room when Dean was calling on the power of the Mark of Cain?
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An incredible end to the “Kill Abaddon” quest that the Winchesters have been on for so long. That is what Dean’s whole struggle had been about. Enduring the pull of the Blade, fighting the blood-lust, suffering through sleepless nights and lonely isolation, all so he could kill the Knight of Hell. Check that off the to-do list, as Dean so eloquently said after he killed Azazel!  Why, then, did he insist on holding onto the demonic weapon that he both fears and craves? Is this simply Dean’s addiction to the Blade?  I don’t think so.  Let’s look at the clues.
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Dean saw his mission clearly – kill Abaddon. He was “obsessed” in Sam’s words, with finding Abaddon. Once his enemy was in his sights, he approached his quarry with the focus and single-mindedness of a hunter after prey. This was a war that he intended to win. To accomplish his objective, he thought it necessary to shed Sam and all other distractions or possible liabilities to his battle plan, so he lied to Sam…again. Sam was understandably mad about this, assuming it was just another example of big brother not trusting him and being overly protective.  Dean tried to explain his reasons, saying that Sam might have been used by Abaddon as leverage to escape. What I would have liked Dean to have said, instead, was:

“Sammy, way back during the trials you told me that I am smart. Well, this was me being smart. I was trained in field tactics. I see battles in my mind. I strategize, anticipating moves and counter moves. I plan strategies as easily as other people plan a trip to the movies. I wasn’t thinking of you here. I did what I had to do to get the job done. Everything isn’t about you. This was about the job – killing Abaddon. The best way to do that was for me to go in alone. You would never have agreed with me, so I lied to you. Plain and Simple.”
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Sam might have understood this explanation a little better.

"Threads" readers pretty much agree that Dean is slowly losing his soul, but we are divided as to how far he will go. One theory is that the Mark is channeling the energy of Dean’s soul into the blade. It makes him drastically more powerful but uses up his soul’s goodness in the process, i.e. making him “soulless” or a calculating, unfeeling, stone cold killer. His dispassionate analysis of the battle with Abaddon was a good example of his Purgatory-like ruthlessness. Another theory is that his draw to violence will eventually turn him into a demon.  Chilling examples of this progression include how much Dean gloried in killing a vampire in A4, or him mutilating Abaddon with repeated stabbings after she was dead. We saw in “Meta Fiction” that Dean was able to hold back his drive to kill when interrogating Gadreel, though. In “King of the Damned”, Dean again proved that he was still capable of rational thought, despite his addiction to a blood-lust that is slowly overpowering him. Dean was more than willing to interrogate Ezra. (By the way, I loved Sam’s little eye twitch when he was bothered by Dean's enthusiasm to interrogate the prisoner. Such a subtle movement to show his concern. Incredible acting interpretation from Jared.) At first, Dean was going to lay into Ezra with the knife but Sam stopped him. Sam figured out that they could use psychology rather than torture to get answers out of Ezra, and Dean, blood-thirsty though he was, understood the ploy instantly.
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Besides being a very welcome reprise of their unspoken communication and seamless hunting partnership, it was also evidence that Dean is still capable of non-violent strategies. Dean was willing to go along with this tactic because he realized it would get results, even though I’m sure it was not his preferred method of interrogation. He did “what he had to do” to get the job done.

Why is Dean insisting on keeping the Blade, then? He promised to return to kill Cain, but I don’t think that is the first thing on his mind. Does he simply feel he has a tremendous weapon and power to fight evil? Is he thinking with that purity of purpose he discovered/experienced in Purgatory? We are seeing a super-amped-up, Purgatory Dean. The question is, how long can he stay in control? Sam finally told Dean that he fears Dean is changing, but neither he, nor we, know into what.

Redemption

If “Meta Fiction” was the turning point in Castiel’s redemption, “King of the Damned” was the beginning of the redemption arc for Gadreel.
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The first time we saw Gadreel in this episode, he talked about honor. Gadreel said he agreed to meet with Castiel because he had a reputation for honor, then later Gadreel said, “I believe there must be honor, even in matters of war”. He also spoke of loyalty and his motivations. All this was done to soften our hatred and anger for Gadreel. These underpinnings were reinforced with Sam’s sympathetic memories of Gadreel as not hostile and “misunderstood”. Gadreel was also compared to Castiel, trying to make the audience sympathetic to his mistakes and establishing that bad things can mistakenly be done by good people (well, angels).
Castiel:   "You’re eager to redeem yourself. Maybe more."
Gadreel:  "You refer to my support of Metatron’s campaign to rebuild Heaven?"
Castiel:    "Your support? You’ve recruited for him. You’ve killed for him. I know you truly believe it is for the greater good but you’ve placed your faith in the wrong master."
Gadreel:  "You don’t know him."
Castiel:    "I know him too well, Gadreel. I made the same mistake and it led to the fall."
Gadreel:  "Which led to my second chance."
Castiel:    "This is about more than just you."
Gadreel:  "Castiel, are you suggesting I change loyalties?"
Castiel:    "I’m suggesting you reclaim your original loyalty to the heaven and mission we were made to serve."
Gadreel:   "I thought that was exactly what I was doing."
Castiel:    "You’ve been deceived." 

Gadreel truly believes he is working toward a noble cause - the restoration of heaven. He fell for Metatron’s story, just as Castiel once did. Gadreel is now the dupe, and Castiel is trying to give Gadreel the benefit of his hard-learned lesson.
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A comment to the "Threads - Meta Fiction” article contained the speculation that Metatron is counting on Gadreel’s betrayal, i.e. that Gadreel is just another antagonist in Metatron’s story.  Is Metatron anticipating Gadreel’s change in loyalties? Metatron’s whole scheme is built on a presumption of predictability. He emphatically insisted that Castiel use HIS script; and to Gadreel that things would work “As long as everyone plays their part”. He knows that Team Free Will can go off-script because they already surprised him when they captured Gadreel. The story’s "twist" that Metatron loves so much will be another “surprise” that either Gadreel, Cas or the boys cook up. I don’t think Metatron knows Dean has the MoC, so that is a Winchester advantage and a basis for an “off script” variation. If Gadreel does redeem himself by changing sides at the most crucial moment (which I believe he will do), this “twist” plus the Winchester’s unpredictability could be what will undermine Metatron’s grand plan and allow the good guys to win.

One more point. I have always assumed that Gadreel’s redemption would be his last, heroic act that would cost him his life. I’m beginning to wonder now, though, if he will not only be recruited back to the good side, but if the writers might allow him to live (in Heaven) as an ally to Castiel. Tahmoh is a strong actor and popular addition to the cast, plus Castiel could use Gadreel’s help in heaven. Gadreel wouldn’t be seen often, maybe only referenced occasionally, but it would be nice to expand Castiel’s circle of friends just a bit. What do you think?
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“King of the Damned” also showed Castiel in his new role as commander. It perpetuated his image as a humbler, wiser leader, pursuing a non-violent solution to the angel war (maybe as a sharp contrast to Dean’s solutions?). SueB posed a theory that I thought was fabulous in the last "Threads" discussion. She speculated that “Cas is playing the Jesus role in this story. I think he will permanently open back up the Gates of Heaven by sacrificing himself.” This idea is brilliant! It never occurred to me, nor do I think I would have ever thought of it. Cas once called himself “God”. Well “God” became human this season, just as the divinity of God became human in the man named Jesus. God has always favored Castiel, just as God declared his favor rested on Jesus. Castiel has also been resurrected several times, just as Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus died to open Heaven. It would be an easy leap to expect that Cas, with all his new-found humility and repentance, would willingly sacrifice himself to open the doorway to heaven (redeeming himself in the process). Cas has died at least twice before – he was killed by Lucifer and he died when he was overcome with Leviathan power - but that doesn’t mean that he wouldn’t be killed again. Sam and Dean have died several times! It would also be another ironic twist on Metatron, who said Cas would be the only one to NOT die. I think this is a very imaginative possibility.

Reversals

-  Will Abel have to kill Cain (i.e. will Sam have to kill Dean), or will the foreshadowing from “First Born”of Cain accidentally killing Colette come to pass? Will Dean accidentally kill Sam?

-  Sam is watching Dean change under the power of an addiction and is (so far) powerless to stop it, just as Dean was powerless to stop Sam’s addiction to demon blood.

-  The demon vessel may have angel grace in him; the angel vessel now has a demonic power growing in him.

-  Sam did not stop Dean from killing his prey (Abaddon) just as Dean couldn’t talk Sam out of killing Lilith. Both demons needed to die, but will there be unintended, global consequences again?

-  Metatron=Chuck.  Metatron is hogging all the prophet powers for himself. That would be another parallel to him being Chuck, the chronicler of the Supernatural story.

Will someone else turn out to be who they aren't supposed to be?:

Crowley - On multiple occasions, I have highlighted the fact that Crowley’s smoke is red, not black like all the other demons. The only other “red” character we have seen so far is Cain. I was a little troubled, therefore, when Crowley recounted his conversion to being a demon.
Gavin:     “You sold your soul? Sold it? For an extra 3 inches of willy?”
Crowley: “Priorities change. I wasn’t the bon vivant that I am now. I’ll simplify. My soul did a stint in Hell, where it became demonized. Then I had to possess another person so I could traffic with the living.”

This is the established, run-of-the-mill way to become a demon. Are we to believe that’s all there is to Crowley? What about the red smoke? That is not a continuity error. It has been shown repeatedly so I know it is important! Crowley’s story confused me. Theories?

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Castiel’s Spy – I predict that the angel who handled Ezra, i.e. the “stuffy” angel who brought the brothers to Castiel’s office, is the mole in Castiel’s organization. His warning to Ezra:
“Be careful what you say. You never know who might be listening…
You said plenty. Apparently you felt the need to discuss your relationship with Metatron. His strategies - priveledged information. You speak that freely and there are consequences”

Before I even knew there was a mole in Castiel’s ranks, I thought it was odd that this angel’s reproach to Ezra focused so much on Metatron. His words could also be prophetic if you read them with a double meaning. Besides, this Cas follower is the only other angel we’ve met who had a speaking part (aside from Hannah in "Meta Fiction", but she had too great of a smile to be a traitor). In practical terms, that actor is credited differently from actors who just have walk-on parts. The writers made a point to introduce this angel as a character.  It makes sense that they are going to use him again.

Heaven:

“You’ve [Sam] seen everything that he’s [Gadreel] seen”-
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We finally got to hear Sam describe what he experienced! It was a very short scene, but I’ll take whatever crumbs I am thrown, as we’ve all been starving for Sam’s point of view!
Sam:      "He didn’t possess me, completely. More like we shared housing. I was still me."
Castiel:  "Did you ever sense a presence?"
Sam:      "I don’t really know what I felt. Maybe that I wasn’t completely alone."
Castiel:  "Did you ever feel threatened?"
Sam:      "No. More that he wasn’t at rest, like he had unfinished business. Now that we know more about him, I’d say he felt misunderstood."
Castiel:  "…but not a danger? Not hostile?"
Sam:      "No. I was wrong, obviously, He killed Kevin."

This is a vital revelation. First, Sam maintained his identity while Gadreel was in control, yet Sam didn’t have any conscious awareness of being possessed? He was allowed to speak to Dean frequently, actually most of the time, yet Sam never knew what was happening to him? Was Gadreel continually wiping Sam’s memory? Not knowing what was happening is consistent with him not knowing that Gadreel met and agreed to work for Metatron. Still, we have Crowley’s statement “I know how possession works, Sam. You’ve seen everything that he’s seen, even if you can’t remember. That’s what I need you to do. I need you to remember.”  (“Road Trip 9.10). Can Sam “remember” more of his time being possessed? Can he remember something strategically important?

Secondly, it seems Sam feels guilty that he misjudged Gadreel. Sam once fought and expelled Satan’s possession. He surely has to believe that he could have overcome Gadreel. Sam’s statement “I was wrong, obviously” tells me that he feels responsible for Kevin’s death.

Is the Angel Banishing Spell Reversible, i.e. What does Crowley know from the angel tablet? - The story does not seem to be going in the direction of Crowley being able to open the gates of Heaven. Rather, the story has introduced the concept of a back door. This week it was revealed that the backdoor to Heaven is a moving portal - Metatron’s personal, secret passageway. I have to wonder if this is what Crowley discovered when he read the tablet. Metatron has been using the knowledge he gained from writing the angel tablet to mastermind his whole scheme. Doesn’t it make sense, then, that a second entrance would be explained in the tablet, that Metatron would consequently know about the backdoor, and that Crowley discovered this secret when he glanced at the tablet? That would be a “huh” to Crowley, as in “Interesting. Store away for future use”.  He hasn’t needed to use that knowledge yet, but it would be a great bargaining chip when Sam and Dean inevitably dissolve their partnership with him and threaten his life. In “Holy Terror (9.09)”, Kevin also found something in the angel tablet that he thought Metatron purposely hid from prophets. Could it have been the escape hatch?

Threads on Hold (no new clues this time)

What is the significance of Castiel’s stolen grace (is it the key to reversing the angel banishing spell)? There wasn’t any new evidence in this episode related to Castiel’s grace, but the comments from the last Threads article included a new theory that Castiel’s borrowed grace will burn out and he will volunteer to be the vessel for all the souls that need to get into Heaven. This would be the sacrifice he would make for all the angels he has killed.

Letting Go/Grief – The idea of grief has been revisited in several episodes this season. The concept of Letting Go of loved ones was explored first with Timmy’s mother’s ghost protecting him, then with Mama and her Alex, and then with Jody and her husband and son. Later the theme was deepened to explore what happens when people don’t let go, i.e. the lingering effects of grief, especially for Kevin. That may be a bigger theme than previously realized, in fact, it may be central to the season’s finale. That’s scary.

New Themes (Storylines?)

I think the time has come to formally acknowledge arcs that are introduced in one season with the express purpose of bridging to the next season. These aren’t exactly threads. They aren’t subtle clues woven into dialogue. Rather they are the seeds of new story lines planted into episodes so that they can be carefully and slowly nurtured for future harvesting.  To get away from the farming analogy and back to the idea of threads, I believe we are seeing the weavers of our story beginning the design of a new tapestry. They are sketching the overall big picture, with the details to be filled in later.  I don’t expect any of these ideas to be developed further in season 9. Rather, I believe these ideas started to percolate when it was confirmed that the show was renewed for another season. These are the connections between this season and next. I have detected three so far:

Who is Kevin’s real father? – This teaser was first dropped in season 8 when Crowley possessed Mrs. Tran. It was revisited when she emphasized the significance of Mr. Tran’s ring. I think something is brewing here.

Female Hunters – At the end of “Alex, Annie, Alexis, Ann”, it was very clear that Sheriff Jody Mills was open to the possibility of permanently caring for Alex, a teenager who desperately needed guidance and love:
Alex: “When Mama offered, I couldn’t disappoint her again. I have enough to be ashamed of as it is. Jody, I’ve done things.”
Jody: “You don’t have to explain. I know. Whatever you want from me, I’ll give it. If you want, I’m here…but what  you’ve been through the last 48 alone. Losing your entire family, everything you’ve ever known or loved, no one can understand that.”
Alex: “You can.”

Alex was established as a strong character, who had already experienced pain and heartache because of the supernatural world. The combination of Jody and Alex would be a great substitution for Ellen and Jo, who we loved but were lost to us in season 5. They would also be a great female duo, to balance the strong male dominance in the show. Their dialogue was clearly meant to parallel the conversation between Sam and Dean in “Sacrifice” (Alex=Sam and Jody=Dean here). Combine this with the female pairing of Dorothy and Charlie, and I believe the show is experimenting with, if not introducing, strong female counterparts to Sam and Dean.

Gavin’s Impact on Time - Why did Abaddon and Crowley spend so much time convincing Gavin that he had time travelled? Why was Abaddon so patient, sitting with Crowley, showing Gavin the 21st century?
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Abaddon did not benefit in any way from Gavin understanding what had happened to him. Why did she allow Crowley so much time to talk with Gavin privately? She needed Gavin as leverage, and her eye-bleeding stunt proved that Gavin’s safety could be used to manipulate Crowley. So why didn’t the story just move along to her threats against Crowley, or to planning the demise of Sam and Dean? I believe the emphasis on Gavin’s time jump was made to address the character’s transition from 18th century Scotland to modern day. A lot of time was also spent between Crowley and Gavin, with Crowley remembering Gavin’s brutally abusive childhood. This was clearly exposition. That only happens when a character needs to be established.
Gavin: “I grew up knowing I was nothing. Less than nothing. You worked me harder than the horse. You never let me go to school. To this day, I can’t read.”

Then later, “So if you’re a King, does that make me a Prince?”

Gavin was established as a half-witted, conniving, self-promoting lout, whose father is the King of Hell (“comes with perks”), and whose grandmother was a witch. Gavin negotiated with Crowley, “If I was to accept you as my father, you could keep me from eternally burning in Hell, no matter my sins?  This might work out. For the first time in my entire life, I can see possibilities…a future” [emphasis added by me]
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Besides Gavin’s and Crowley’s dialogue, Sam and Dean's emphasis on never changing the time stream was blatant. There is no doubt that this episode needed to set up Gavin as a full character. Why else would the writers (annoyingly) spend several, precious minutes in a heavy, myth-arc-resolving episode on a throw-away, only-mentioned-once-before character? Gavin’s presence in the current time will be important.

Curiosities

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-  Just as in "Meta Fiction", we once again had a scene where the characters talked straight into the camera, purportedly talking to someone, yet seemingly talking directly to the audience:
Dean: “I get it. He’s a fan.”
Sam:  “A fan. Yeah.”
Dean: “You’re a fan. Look, just ‘cause you’re hot for Metatron, or Bieber or Beckham…Just ‘cause you know everything about them, doesn’t mean you actually know them.”
Sam:   “…or that they even know you exist.”
Dean: “Oh, that’s cold Sam.”
Sam:   “I’m just saying, man.”

What I don’t understand is why the writers did this? Two episodes in a row (if one takes "Bloodlines" out of the sequence as a one-off) the writers told fans to back off. First they felt compelled to say “we own the story, not you. We know the ending”. I was okay with that because they posed it as the true philosophical question that it is - Reader vs. Author. This week, though, it was “You don’t really know the people you idolize. They don’t know (or care) about you”. Why are they purposely antagonizing the fans? It doesn’t make any sense. Are they really threatened by the fandom? Jared and Jensen have far more interaction with the fans than the writers (at conventions) and they continually reiterate how much they love being with fans. Happily, the fandom doesn’t seem to be upset by this insertion, but why do you think the writers did this?

-  It didn’t make any sense to me why Abaddon didn’t just kill Crowley after she shot him. She could have killed him with an angel blade while he was incapacitated. She knew the Winchesters were already on their way. She didn’t need Crowley anymore. Kill him and the war for hell is over. Was she keeping him alive just in case she needed him, or was this a “don’t look closely” moment of the plot? 

-  Abaddon knew time travel because she was trained as a MoL. She used it to follow Henry Winchester to the 21st century.

-  Can the non-damned hear hell hounds? In “Crossroads Blues” (2.08) the dialogue established that Sam could not hear the hell hounds heard by Evan (a condemned man). In “Abandon All Hope” and “Trial and Error”, I remember everyone deducing the hell hounds’ presence by visual cues, but never hearing them. I was therefore surprised when Sam heard a hellhound in the cemetery. I’m thinking this was a canon error?

-  Crowley must have more than one pet hell hound because the preview recalled him saying,  “Sic ‘em, boy”, yet this one was a female named Juliet.

If you’ve read this far, I have one closing observation. I opened with my confusion about the calm before the storm atmosphere created in “King of the Damned”.  Maybe the whole point of the episode’s tranquil atmosphere, though, was to put into sharp contrast the violence overtaking Dean. Everyone else - Sam, Castiel, Gadreel, even the King, Knight and Hound of Hell - were civil and reasonably peaceful in this episode. Dean on the other hand, was brutally violent. The irony may have been the entire point.  

Thoughts?

Screen Caps courtesy of www.homeofthenutty.com.

References confirmed with www.supernaturalwiki.com

Comments  

percysowner
# percysowner 2014-05-10 13:40
Sammy, way back during the trials you told me that I am smart. Well, this was me being smart. I was trained in field tactics. I see battles in my mind. I strategize, anticipating moves and counter moves. I plan strategies as easily as other people plan a trip to the movies. I wasn’t thinking of you here. I did what I had to do to get the job done. Everything isn’t about you. This was about the job – killing Abaddon. The best way to do that was for me to go in alone. You would never have agreed with me, so I lied to you. Plain and Simple.”

I have two issues with this. The first is that the real issue is that Dean assumes Sam will react a certain way and that Dean either doesn't think he can change Sam's mind, or he doesn't want to try. Dean found out that this was a trap on the ride to wherever Crowley was. He had time to make the argument to Sam. Time to talk Sam into staying back. BUT HE DIDN'T EVEN TRY. Much of the issues on Sam's side is that Dean consistently treats Sam as a subordinate not a partner not part of the team. The speech you used should have been given before they went to take on Abaddon, not as an explanation afterwards. Sam was willing to die in 9.23 because he didn't think Dean trusted him. So Dean saying what he did say, Sam if you had been there it would have f*cked everything up emphasizes that Dean still does not trust Sam to be a adequate partner. Even the speech you propose boils down to Dean can't trust Sam to do the right thing to accomplish the goal. 'I knew what needed to be done and I knew you would NEVER do the smart thing" still boils down to Dean thinks Sam is pretty useless. And that has been an issue in the relationship for a long time. It's also unfair because Sam has deferred to Dean's plans in the past. At the very least his input might have been useful.

But the big issue for me is that Crowley said "Poughkeepsie". That was a code word meaning things were wrong and to be aware of a trap. It decidedly does NOT mean Abaddon is alone with me waiting to spring a trap. It is not "there are no other demons in the building". It is not "Abaddon doesn't have any demons in the basement so it's safe" Dean knew it was a trap. He didn't know what the trap was, how many demons there were or what exactly was going on. He sent Sam off by himself with absolutely NO warning that the situation wasn't what Sam thought. For the purposes of the plot Abaddon was an idiot who didn't plant demons all over the house to make sure that both brothers could be taken care of and to give herself a better defensive position. She should have done that instead of evil overlording it and doing it herself. So really Dean not telling Sam anything had the real potential to put Sam into more danger than letting him know what was going on.
nightsky
# nightsky 2014-05-11 10:15
Percysowner, I wanted to give your comments a lot of thought so I waited to reply.

As far as Dean and Sam: My alternate dialog came from an assumption of keeping the events as they were presented, just explaining them better. Given the choices we saw Dean make, this is what I would have liked him to say to at least explain himself better. That is a different debate from whether he did the right thing. I commented on what I would have liked him to say; your comments are more what we would have liked him to do.

Dean shut Sam out of the battle. The question is why. Did he think Sam was a liability in this situation? Yes. Did he believe he could get the job done alone? Yes. Should he have believed all these things?? That is the debate. He has always wanted to protect Sam. As the one who raised Sam, that is now ingrained in Dean forever. I believe, though. that what we saw related more to the MoC than Dean's history of protectiveness. Was Dean protecting Sam? I'm not sure about that. If our theories are correct, Dean is being cut off from his feelings. Think of Soulless Sam. Dean's decisions are exactly the same decisions SoullessSam would have made in these circumstances. I think we should start analyzing Dean's actions as if he was SoullessDean. The MoC is making him cold. He can be non-violent if that is what will get the job done; but he can also be mercilessly violent if that is a faster way to get the job done. He doesn't care either way. Nor does he care about Sam's feelings right now, or maybe even Sam's safety, as your Poughkeepsie observations pointed out and as the bleeding-out incident in A4 might have been suggesting. Dean is losing himself, so I don't judge him at this time by the standards of whether he has learned anything at all of what Sam is desperately trying to get him to hear. His ears only hear the drum beat of the MoC. The brother's relationship is in danger because Dean IS changing (into the true bearer of the MoC), not because he WON'T change (to think of Sam as an equal partner). I hope that helps you look at this differently and feel a little bit better about our boys.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-10 13:46
First Abbadon's death seemed way to easy. Crowley and Abbadon talked for a long time before the Winchester's got there. What were they talking (conspiring) about?
Why the hellhound? Was it to get Sam and Dean away from the body? Was it just for the Juliet joke? It seemed pointless.
What is Crowley? Why didn't Abbadon just kill him? Previously Crowley seemed afraid that Castiel could kill him? Maybe Crowley can only be killed by the Blade?
The timeline was disrupted as soon as Abbadon killed Gavin's friend. Since it was pointed out in the episode I would assume there are going to be consequences.
Dean sent Sam to the basement because he didn't want Sam to be used as a bargaining chip. I think Dean is becoming aware that he doesn't really care now if he has to go through Sam to achieve his goal.
And what is Dean's goal now? I don't think there is one. I think that Dean is feeling uninhibited, he can now kill without thought or remorse like he could in Purgatory.
Castiel's story still doesn't make any sense to me. I still don't know why the angels are fighting each other. I almost don't care. I know everyone is happy that Misha is coming back next year and as much as I have loved his character he needs to have a real purpose for being there. Not just to angelically bail the guys out of whatever situation they are in.
Metatron? Gadreel?
If the whole angel possession story turns into a redemption arc for Gadreel that will mean that Sam really didn't need to be in this season at all.
This episode like all of the eps written be these two set up a lot of questions that may or may not get revisited much less resolved.
I liked this episode especially on second watch but it isn't a must see.
E
# E 2014-05-10 15:05
Quote:
If the whole angel possession story turns into a redemption arc for Gadreel that will mean that Sam really didn't need to be in this season at all.
Cheryl in a nutshell, this is my fear. That means that Sam has once again been reduced to plot point, for Dean and the MoC and Gadreel and even to a certain extent for Cas and Metatron and finally for Gadreel, who as a guest character doesn't really deserve an story arc or a redemption IMO. I fear Sam will be reduced to a non-person; what he thinks and feels matters not at all, as long as he DOES something to drive the actions, thoughts and feelings of everyone else. If Gadreel gets a huge gut wrenching redemption arc then the writers will have treated Sam as badly as Dean has treated him this season; using him as a tool for the sake of the plot of others. I never thought that something as awful as the forced possession story line could possibly be hand waved away, but the PTB are doing it; drumming up sympathy for "misunderstood" Gadreel. I mean, what has Sam got to complain about? He was still him, he wasn't "threatened" in any way, it was just shared housing, he should be appreciative of the company. :(:(:( Just……...no.

I have been enjoying this season, very much, (up until recently anyway) but as I see the writing on the wall for the final episodes I am beginning to fear that I will not like the outcome. Here's my prediction; Dean will go off the rails to the point that nothing will stop him. His final act of the season will be to kill Sam. Then, either in the final episode or early on in the next season, Gadreel will step up to save Sam because Cas will find that his stolen grace does not allow him to do so. So, great drama for Dean as he has to face doing the ONE thing he swore he would never, ever do (and a nice throwback to season 2's Save Sam or Kill Him storyline), redemption for Gadreel who finally steps up to the plate and see the light or whatever and does the right thing so all is forgiven, drama for Cas who realizes his grace is dwindling and "oh no's!" what do we do about that? And for Sam? Nothing, nada, zero, zilch… not even the big save of his brother that we have all been longing for for what seems like YEARS, not any kind of resolution for his possession storyline, no voice about it's affects, no delving into his feelings of betrayal, no apology from Dean about what he went through due to Dean's decisions… just a whole lot of nuthin'. Please, oh please, please let me be wrong about this……...
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-10 15:12
As much as I fear you are right I am trying not to judge episodes that haven't aired yet. The next two writers are the best this show has to offer. All fingers and toes crossed.
LEAH
# LEAH 2014-05-10 15:51
I have never prayed you are wrong about anything E, but I do on this one!
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-05-10 16:10
SPN in a nutshell.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-05-10 19:25
That's my biggest fear as well. Sam is no longer a character that the writers or JC care about They totally ignore his POV and use him to advance Dean's POV. As a Sam fan I'm wondering why I'm watching. If the season ends as you've stated and there is not pay-off for the Sam possession story, I will have to decide if I want to watch S10. Right now, my answer is no. I'm disgusted with the whole thing.
Gwen
# Gwen 2014-05-10 19:57
I so, so, so hope you are wrong but I fear you are spot on right here. :( Sam's talk about Gadreel being misunderstood got all sorts of alarm bells ringing for me. I never thought that the possession story would be handwaved away, never thought such a storyline could be handwaved away, but right now it seems that that is exactly what is happening. Hopefully the last two episodes will prove our fears to be wrong.

Quote:
Here's my prediction; Dean will go off the rails to the point that nothing will stop him. His final act of the season will be to kill Sam.
Yup, I too think Dean will kill Sam in the finale.

I agree with Paisley above that Abbadon's death felt pretty anti-climatic. I was really disappointed that Abbadon was killed. I loved Abbadon and wish they had used her a lot more this season whereas the angel war storyline just hasn't interested me at all.
resa
# resa 2014-05-10 20:47
"Yup, I too think Dean will kill Sam in the finale."

I sincerely, intensely hope not. There's more than enough Dean "dislike" on the boards as it is. I can see him killing himself more than see him killing Sam but lately who knows. I would really hate it if that's the way they go. Of course, that's never really mattered to TPTB.
E
# E 2014-05-10 22:53
Hi All, just so's you all know, I have never hoped to be more wrong about a plot prediction than I am now, but like Gwen, when Sam started describing his possession as 'shared housing' and 'not threatening' and Gadreel as 'misunderstood' I got all kinds of warning signals about where they are going with this story. Maybe Sam will sacrifice himself for Dean so that he at least gets a 'w' in the win column before he goes. They way that they are going with the MoC storyline though, I fear that nothing will get through to Dean like killing the thing he loves best. Sam has tried to prove himself to Dean again and again, but nothing really seems to take. Dean just goes back to mistrusting Sam like he always does. I am afraid that Sam will have to be Abel or Collette to get Dean to turn away from the blade and to convince him of Sam's love for him. It took something that awful for Cain to throw the blade into the sea and he was already a demon by then. And with them revisiting older plot lines, I think that this is where they might go. I really hope that I am surprised, and TPTB go in a completely different direction; JC has the writing chops to do it too.. and Andrew Dabb has grown so much lately. And with Guy Norman Bee as director… who knows what could happen???

Iwantobewrongiw antobewrongiwan tobewrong………..
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2014-05-10 23:28
Hey E,

I want to ease a little if I can what you feel. The way I saw Sam telling Cass how Gadreel felt. How should I say it... Alright, We know it was bad and how Sam described the possession I saw it like. "Now Sam knows he was possessed so he can regard what was off when he was possessed." I think it was clear on the last line that he said he was wrong because Gadreel killed Kevin. And at the start he also said he didn't want to talk about the matter.

Even we know he wasn't a threat at start until Metatron escalated it for Gadreel. And what Sam said at the start and the end describes more how Sam feels -now- about it. He was not in danger at the start but all the time the possession thing was still bad. Many people that have watched also felt him not a threat (Even though we all had a very VERY bad feeling in our stomach.) He didn't do evil stuff until the very end and we know how that went... So I can understand how Sam can say he was not feeling like a big bad apocalyptic evil. Gad even saved Sam's friends while Sam was possessed and even Sam. BUT! We saw his rage against Gadreel too. That is the anger against the possession.

That is how I view it. I know it is not swept under the rug in that way how I see it. And that is why the situation in my eyes is more complex than that. And like I said. That doesn't diminish how bad the possession was. It is just not that simple. ;)

- Lilah
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-10 14:37
Hi Nightsky,

Just some random thoughts...

This episode seemed a little off to me, not entirely sure why but I do agree with those that said Abaddon's death scene was a little on the cheesy side and anticlimactic.

I think Cain said that someday he would call on Dean to kill him, not that Dean would seek him out.

I disagree on the change in dialog in explaining his decision to go it alone against Abaddon; Dean really doesn't give a crap what Sam thinks and "did what he had to do". Dean is viewing Sam as an impediment to getting the job done, similar to how Sam started to view Dean in S4.

Don't like the way they are handling Gadreel's redemption arc; they are starting to whitewash his possession of Sam and killing Kevin. So I fear that this storyline or any ramifications to these actions, Sam's viewpoint on the matter, is probably done.

I don't think Sam has any angel grace left in him; Castiel said before trying to extract the grace that there was less each time they had their healing sessions.

Agreed, there will be unintended consequences to Abaddon dying; I for one will miss the world's angriest ginger.

At first, I didn't think they would, but I do think they're "going there" with Dean - he

1) Goes completely darkside
2) Kills Sam, a growing possibility - I didn't think they'd dare go there, but IMO Dean is becoming a less and less sympathetic character.
3) chooses up sides against Sam and Castiel, either with Crowley, or a big twist, Metatron. Keep in mind that Metatron is the scribe of God and knows just about everything, and might know how to control the holder of the Mark of Cain.

I agree with your mole theory, but think Ezra was a plant by Metatron

I think Mark Sheppard said at Comic Con that Crowley is what happens when you aren't paying attention. While the angel factions are fighting it out, it wouldn't surprise me if he made a back end run for heaven.

I was a little confused by the need to time travel; why didn't Abaddon just shoot Crowley when she first go there, and told him to help her kill the WInchesters, or die. I guess their bringing in Gavin for a story line with Crowley for S10; they did mention they wanted to continue exploring Crowley and Castiel outside the world of Sam and Dean, and they did play well off each other. And, for the life of me I can't figure out what Sam and Dean didn't kill him at the end after Abaddon was dead.

Abaddon's time travel was a bit of a retcon; yes, she knew how (but in S8 used the portal Henry opened) but Henry required the power of his soul to time travel. Abaddon doesn't have a soul, and Josie's body was burned extra crispy by Sam at the end of last season before being resurrected in 9.02. So I wouldn't think there are any remnants of her soul left, she was just a meat suit.

Good point on the hellhound; maybe since she was guarding the first blade and was technically going after Sam and Dean, that's why they could hear her?

I've been happy with Castiel's storyline this year for the first time in a while. That being said, the angel storyline is still a little flat to me; the fact that all those souls are in the veil does raises the stakes, and Castiel, Gadreel, and Metatron are interesting, but the remaining angels are mindless automatons. I liked it better when they gave more of them a personality, like Uriel, Anna, Zachariah, Balthazar, etc.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-10 15:07
They have been able to hear hellhounds since S5 Sam, Dean, Ellen and Jo could all hear the hellhounds and Sam and Dean could hear them in The Devil You Know. I still don't get the point of it though.
For some reason Sam and Dean felt they owed Crowley for warning them about Abbadon. So they didn't kill him???
Abbadon may still have a soul. Since demons souls are twisted and can be cured. Maybe?
nightsky
# nightsky 2014-05-10 19:30
I have to go back and rewatch AAH. I remember Meg talked to the dogs,which is what clued them to the dogs in the first place. I remember the dogs banging on the door, which is how they knew the dogs were at the store. I remember Ellen followed their clumsy path through the store and heard their breathing, so that was how she knew where they were. I really have to go back and watch for this specific detail. Did they specifically comment that they could hear them?

The Juliet joke was a great line, but my household also wondered why the dog was inserted into that scene. To me, it was just another use of 2 minutes that should have gone to building up the tension for the battle. Maybe it will become important later, though? It might be a detail that is setting something up re: Crowley.
resa
# resa 2014-05-10 20:39
Juliet was another indication of the fact that Crowley didn't have hardly anyone in his camp anymore. He was specifically complaining on the phone about how he left orders for her to be collected and she wasn't. He was disobeyed again, which leads you to wonder if he can truly be King of Hell now, even with Abbadon out of the picture.

Also, in season 6 "Caged Heat", the boys heard the hellhounds that guarded Crowley's torture prison for Alphas. That's when Cass got his first kiss from Meg. ;)
nightsky
# nightsky 2014-05-10 21:21
I am so glad you explained about that "collected" comment. I couldn't quite hear it clearly (any of the 3 times I've watched the show so far), so I didn't understand what he meant by it at all. "Collected" isn't a term used very frequently this side of the ocean!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2014-05-10 17:53
I'm a newish SPN fan and I've recently begun reading some of the comments here and on other forums, and I have a thought about why the writers of this episode included the "fan" dialogue during the interrogation scene. I think it was because of some of the extremely harsh commentary I've read from fans about these 2 writers. I've been very surprised about how ugly some of the fan commentary is (though not on this site, which is why I enjoy reading the articles and commentary here). So maybe the writers are just answering those fans. I'm not saying it's justifiable to use an episode to do that, but if they've read some of the comments about themselves- which start by critiquing the writing and then turn into personal attacks- it's human nature to want to respond somehow. Just a thought!
Tao
# Tao 2014-05-10 21:00
Sorry to see here the usual, tired SamGirl, DeanGirl crap you see on so many other sites. The commentary on this site is usually better than this.
LEAH
# LEAH 2014-05-10 21:23
I disagree Tao. Sorry. The other sites are much, much worse. The people here are usually respectful even if their bias is showing. I sometimes flinch at a comment that is unkind about my favorite character or any other character but it doesn't get out of hand.
nightsky
# nightsky 2014-05-10 21:32
Leah, I slightly modified your comment. I really appreciate you defending this site. I've been monitoring this discussion and have been a little surprised at the direction it took, but I agree that people should be able to vent a little as long as they stay respectful. I want everyone to feel welcome, though. After all, we were all new at one point!

Emotions are running a little high because we are all so worried about the finale. I'm interested in everyone's speculations, but everyone at WFB keeps watch that things don't get personal.
LEAH
# LEAH 2014-05-10 21:43
No problem Nightsky, I must have agreed with you or I wouldn't have reported myself when I was trying to edit! Thanks.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-10 21:54
I think that this more than any other season I can remember has been very long (all the breaks maybe). I think that there is a little fan fatigue and some frustration that the stories aren't going the way we assumed in the beginning. Stories that we thought were important or relationships that aren't going to be resolved in a seemingly satisfying way are taking its toll on us fans. These last 2 episodes have kind of lit a fire here because there are so many plot points that don't look like they are going to be settled by seasons end. With only 80 minutes left I don't see how they could be. There is a lot of frustration and that can come out as lashing out at a character or a writer or show runner or what ever. We are all worried about how the season is going to end and maybe a little sensitive to how our favorite character is going to be portrayed in the final moments. We can only wait and see and that is nerve wracking.
Sorry Leah this wasn't a reply to you just an observation.
LEAH
# LEAH 2014-05-10 22:17
No problem Cheryl, I got it! I am also aware that people are edgy now. :)
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-05-11 04:02
I think after the cage and Time for a Wedding where Sam was 'abused' another instance of consent or lack of consent comes up where Sam is concerned then a pattern has emerged I am in all honesty uncomfortable with. We have focused on the Dean pov on this rather than the Sam and while brief conversations with Castiel are all well and good it does not deal with the fundamental issues that arose from what happened. So yes I am disappointed that something so important for Sam seems to of been used to cause issues for Dean has he jumped feet first into the MOC.
Krysty Seayer
# Krysty Seayer 2014-05-10 21:25
Thanks for the review. I always enjoy reading the different perspectives on each episode.
I read A LOT about supernatural all over the web but rarely post. However, after reading the comments about the interrogation, I thought I’d come out of the shadows to Just a word to hopefully sooth some rattled nerves. Let me start by asking : how many time have we’ve been told by the actors that the fandom is seen as family. They have told us over and over. They wouldn’t be here without us. I don’t think at all that these actors would go along with dissing the fans. In fact, I know they wouldn’t. Not these guys. They are too thoughtful. I heard on Winchester Pod Cast for A4 that Jensen insisted on adding lines to make sure the fans knew (after the way they said goodbye to Jody in Between A Rock and Hard Place) the boys cared about Jody and showed that concern by asking if she wanted them to hang around for bit. That part wasn’t scripted originally. The writers may write but untilmatly, Jensen and Jared wouldn’t allow that.

So when I watched the interrogation, I not only didn’t see the interrogation as an attack on us fans, but more on the fans of people like Bieber and Metatron, who are, well, over-obsessed. Anyone checked the rabid following that Beckham and Beiber have? Well, it was a good comparison for Metatron.
But, for argument sake let’s say that it was – we all know that there is a small portion of fans who do not respect the cast and writers (every fandom has a small portion of crazy). It’s the law of statistics. Bound to have them. I, for one, am very protective of the cast and would love to go up in arms over fans that attack them for their work. I’m not talking about fans being critical. That is essential. Honest criticism is important for improvement. I’m talking about the small portion that do attack and say things uncalled for, and attack them personally. Constructive criticism - not personal attacks.
So if that is what the writers were doing--- well, we’re not the ones they are talking about. The ones they would have been talking to are the fans who do not represent us. The ones we would say “STOP IT” to as well. Just saying.
I’m not trying to defend anyone or say anyone is right or wrong; just hoping to point out another side of the story. I hate fighting. And hurt feelings.
We’re going to need each other as we come to the end… and to make it through the hellatus.
Peace out and Love all round Guys!
nightsky
# nightsky 2014-05-10 23:04
Krysty, I'm so happy you expressed your opinion. You have an optimistic, conciliatory viewpoint, and the fandom could certainly use more of that. Both Jared and Jensen have continually expressed a great deal of respect for fans so that dialogue sounded so weird coming out of their mouths. The give and take on social media is so new to both fans and writers. It has to be impossibly hard for authors who put so much of themselves into these episodes to hear criticism. I don't believe it is appropriate to express their opinion within the show, so I have to conclude then that the "fan" comments were meant to be light hearted and funny. Happily, most of the Twitter reactions I have read took them that way. I hesitated to bring it up, but I really wanted to hear how the WFB readers felt.
Abby S
# Abby S 2014-05-10 21:46
I always like to look at your "threads"-- very cool!!

I just wanted to point out a few things that have been running through my mind and I just want to get it out there:

A few episodes back there has been talk of Dean being able to control himself when he was with Gadreel but I wanted to say that wasn;t what I saw: When Dean stops from killing Gadreel, he does it, not because he can control himself, but because his one intention is to inflict pain and enjoy it. He wanted Gadreel to suffer and he realized a second before plunging the knife in to Gadreel’s heart that he wouldn’t be making him suffer. His “self-control” was just a part of his love of torture.
So it would seem. #DarkSideDean breaking my heart but such a good story arc.

In the most recent episode,when he was trying to explain why he sent Sam to the basement, I thought that part of the reason he did send him away was that maybe be wasn't sure if he would drop the blade to save Sam. But that was just me thinking based off his Possum playing with the Vamps in AAAA.

Why does he keep calling Sam "Sammy"? He does it A LOT more than he used to...

Did the way he killed Abbadon, fighting her force, make you instantly think of Sam killing Samhain? (It's the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester, Season 4)

Am I alone in wishing that Gadreel could be redeemed? I mean I collected buckets of tears over Kevin, but he saved Cass. And Sam twice. And Charlie. He "Shared housing" with Sam.
Didn't Cass kill hundreds as "god"? he is still alive. Why did they kill Crowley? Last time they met, Sam was like "kill him NOW!" (I think Crowley should be dead, but I cant condone killing off such a good actor :).....so leave the evil. for now. Actually, I think they left him alive because in the absent of all power, worse chaos would ensue. Crowley would put things back in line and then they can kill him.

Thanks for putting up with my ramblings.


Lastly, Dean is scaring me. But why is badass so hot???? just asking.
nightsky
# nightsky 2014-05-10 22:43
Abby, I am so glad you enjoy Threads! With so many things accumulated from the whole season, each article is getting so long!

You made several really good points!
Quote:
Am I alone in wishing that Gadreel could be redeemed? I mean I collected buckets of tears over Kevin, but he saved Cass. And Sam twice. And Charlie. He "Shared housing" with Sam.

I have always liked Gadreel as a character. He is very complex. I hope the conclusion of his story will be equally complex. It would be a shame to simplify either his motivations or his decisions.

Quote:
Actually, I think they left him alive because in the absent of all power, worse chaos would ensue. Crowley would put things back in line and then they can kill him.
This is the best explanation I have read. The obvious excuse was that they were thankful for his help. I like your idea better.
...and bad boys have always had a certain allure...;)
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2014-05-10 22:55
Abby, you are not alone with Gadreel. The actor plays him really well and even if I am on the Kevin train I hope the punishment to it is not death, because well. A) It would be too easy. B) Gadreel is growing to be a character people also love. It has a lot of potential.

So maybe Gadreel will be Sam's "Castiel" It would be just a love/hate relationship at start. :P

But I fear we see him killed... As I fear atm to any other character on show.

- Lilah
Abby S
# Abby S 2014-05-10 23:26
Glad to know I'm not the only one who wants to save Gadreel.
"I have seen you through Sam Winchester's eyes." Seems to me that Gadreel never intended to hurt Sam. The fact that he still values Sam's view and opinions on things made me want him to redeem himself even more. And with Castiel's reaching out to him, if Cass will reach out to him, so do I....especially when you consider that he does this after getting so, so angry when he discovered Gadreel's identity. Dean had to pull him back.
Even though he mocked Sam when he was captured, he was reacting from fear and was intentionally goading them so they would kill him.

I guess what it comes down to is that I feel very sorry for the dude and I don't even know why. He killed Kevin, but being so easily deceived by Lucifer and now Metatron speaks to his bad judgement. Diidn't Cass have that same problem?
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2014-05-10 23:53
Indeed he had. And like I said. I think everyone in the show has done very bad things. Every single one. :)
BookLady
# BookLady 2014-05-10 22:55
Hi Nightsky,

Referring to your Letting go/Grief thread, I thought Crowley's inability to let go of Gavin by returning him to his time and death on the ship to the colonies fit into that thread. There have been personal and hurtful consequences to Dean (and others) for not letting go of Sam and I think the same will happen with Crowley regarding Gavin. I don't think we've seem the last of Gavin and how he will negatively affect Crowley (and others). I'm wondering if the theme of grief and letting go will circle around back to Sam and Dean in the finale. As well as the series theme of family and choice.
nightsky
# nightsky 2014-05-10 23:09
I missed Crowley not "letting go" of Gavin. Thanks for pointing that out! I will add it to the thread next time!
LEAH
# LEAH 2014-05-10 23:28
I always enjoy the "Threads"! Frankly I am not the best at weaving them all together but I enjoy reading them. I have to agree with Abby, I felt that if there were a power void in hell that someone even worse than Crowley could get control of hell. I honestly don't think they should kill him. It could be SO much worse.

As for the fan comments I agree that it is no big deal, these writers have taken a ton of abuse. I really don't think the same people who seem to appreciate the nicer aspects of the fandom mean any malice. We can take it, we are a pretty crazy fandom in some ways. Maybe not Belieber crazy but....

I am so torn about Gadreel. Love the actor and he is an interesting character but I am not sure I can like him after what he did to Kevin. Who knows though? I love the character Crowley even after all he has done. I don't necessarily think he is a nice guy but he is certainly entertaining. I grew to like Meg even after all she did. I forgave Cas for his sins. The show does lean towards letting characters redeem themselves.

Thanks again nightsky.:)
nightsky
# nightsky 2014-05-11 11:06
You are very welcome! I am so glad they help you enjoy the show. I appreciate the feedback!
E
# E 2014-05-10 23:43
Quote:
Am I alone in wishing that Gadreel could be redeemed? I mean I collected buckets of tears over Kevin, but he saved Cass. And Sam twice. And Charlie. He "Shared housing" with Sam.
Hi Abby S,
Gadreel only saved Sam to save himself, so that act can't be considered a very altruistic move on his part really. Sam dies, Gadreel dies; saving Sam was more a self serving act than a noble one IMO. He saved Cas and Charlie to keep Dean happy, pretty crucial since Dean was the one who could have screwed up Gadreel's hiding place and caused him to have to leave his shared housing situation before he was ready. I didn't find any of Gadreel's actions while riding shotgun inside Sam to be especially noble. So, I guess I am conflicted about Gadreel and him having a redemption. If Gadreel is redeemed, then where does that leave Sam? It feels like the way that the story is going that Sam is being shown that he doesn't have anything to be upset about in regards to being possessed; it was, after all, just like shared housing; like a roommate, and you have fun with a roommate don't you? Only, this roommate snuck into your room, went through your clothes, wore your jewelry, read your emails and diary, stole money from your bank account, watched you sleep through a crack in the door, spied on you while you showered, listened in on your phone calls, and then made you feel like you were crazy to think something was wrong. So I for one am conflicted about the storyline, very conflicted. I actually like Gadreel and I really like the actor who plays him. But if we accept Gadreel and buy into his redemption then we excuse what he's done to Sam and by extension we excuse what Dean has done to Sam. The possession was all kinds of WRONG and to date there has not been an acknowledgement by either Gadreel or Dean that the scheme cooked up between them was wrong and damaging to Sam and that he, at the very least, deserves an apology. And until we get at least that much for Sam, I am not that interested in seeing Gadreel play the hero. In season 5, Sam was wracked by remorse for his actions while addicted to demon blood. He apologized over and over to everyone; Dean, Cas, Bobby; his punishment took the entire season. He called himself "the least of all of you" in the very last episode. He acknowledged that he made terrible, terrible mistakes… he atoned and did penance, and punished himself and tried to change. Until I see something like that from Gadreel (and from Dean) I won't be interested in his redemption because he won't have earned it IMO.
Abby S
# Abby S 2014-05-11 01:59
Hey E,
Thanks for your perspective. I see what you are saying; his actions can definitely been seen in that light. I guess I'm just a sucker for redemption stories. I know from personal experience how powerful redemption can be and how forgiveness doesn't just move in one direction. To be sure, punishment is an absolute necessity, but seeing the why of one's actions, while not excusing them, does help move on and past a terrible mistakes. I believe that Fear drives most actions and is at the core of most of the devastating actions.
I just want to see the best in people,(Cass tendency here) :)
I agree that Gadreel shouldn't play the hero, but someone once told me that no victory achieved without a an unexpected step up and to never give up on anyone. I think he could be the link to helping end the violence. But just because he might play that key link doesnt take away from the brothers. They are the heroes. Along with Cass. No doubt. Now and forever. And in my mind's eye, I see Sam being the hero of the day. Dean is going to need help as he goes darker.
Cheers!
eilf
# eilf 2014-05-11 02:33
Hi E I agree with you completely in some ways but I have a slightly different take on it.
Initially Gadreel didn't have anything he owed the Winchesters. He was using them and Dean was using Gadreel. Gadreel offered to help Sam. He did help Sam. He did it in a way that was completely and utterly immoral and unacceptable ... but, he is an angel, and they don't really care about people as individuals. In a way they are very like soulless!Sam. They see the big picture (what they think the big picture is) and they move people around like pawns until they get what they want and they trample over anyone who gets in their way. Castiel behaves exactly this way too (see: destroying Sam's mental wall as leverage over Dean) but we have gotten used to him so (annoyingly) he gets a free pass...

But the take home message with angels (Cas maybe accepted) is YOU CAN'T TRUST THEM, they always have an agenda, and if it doesn't mesh with yours, well, too bad.

Gadreel healed Sam, he gave him somewhere safe to be in his mind while he was healing. Generally it wasn't Gadreel's decision to risk Sam's well-being by healing other people, it was Dean's. Gadreel was manipulating Dean with this whole 'you can't tell Sam' thing but Dean allowed himself to be manipulated, he could have asked Castiel, he could have confided in/warned Kevin. He really, truly ought to have trusted Sam to make his own damn decisions.

It was Dean's decision too that Gadreel had to leave. It was Dean who had Sam/Gadreel tortured (and walked away for a 'this is not your fault, Dean' meeting with Cas during it) and it was Dean who was told by everyone that none of this was Dean's fault - that he 'meant well' and was doing it out of love.

And now Dean says that the only thing that is a problem is that Kevin died. And if that is all that is wrong, well, then it is all Gadreel's fault and Gadreel must be punished. Now doesn't that sound like what happened to Gadreel over the garden? Castiel even says it during the needle incident. Everything that has ever gone wrong with the universe (literally) is Gadreel's fault. And if it is Gadreel's fault then it can't be anyone else's can it?

Well Kevin came back to tell them that while it wasn't ok that he had gotten killed, it was over. Ok, but that much is still on Gadreel, he killed Kevin ... because he had motive and, more importantly, opportunity.

But Dean has reduced the issue to 'Gadreel killed Kevin, therefore Gadreel is responsible for everything that happened'.

So here what I see: if Gadreel is no longer the black and white bad-guy who possessed Sam against his will, and hurt him, if neither of these things are actually true (which according to the last episode they are not - Sam wasn't truly possessed and Gadreel never actually harmed him) then Dean's logic that he was doing the right thing is flawed and Dean needs to look at who actually did make the wrong decision - and more importantly what the wrong decision actually was. Was it talking Sam out of dying without telling him what the choice was? Was it lying to him for months (which completely negates the 'stone number one' thing that for all Dean knows Sam still needed as an anchor to reality. If Dean is going to lie to Sam about the fundamentals of Sam's existence then how can Sam rely on Dean keeping him clear on what is real and what isn't)? Was it talking him out of completing the trials? Was it the soul-destroying 'things you should atone for' speech backed up by the 'chaperone' comment?

My point is basically it is too easy to blame Gadreel. Sam always is forced to take responsibility for his actions, it has come to the point that Sam, all on his own, is now seen as responsible for the Apocalypse (which is absolutely, canonically NOT the case), Sam ends up getting more blame than he ought. Maybe it is possible that Dean is being lined up to take responsibility for his?

Angels are dicks, they always screw things up and mess with you. If you know that and use them anyway, you have to take responsibilty for the bad things they do.

To be perfectly honest I think that the show has entirely dropped any chance of Dean coming to any realization of why Sam has a genuine reason to feel betrayed. I can't help thinking that the writers haven't been told by the showrunner which angle the story is aiming for, which would be fine if this were a hypothetical discussion down the pub about right and wrong but completely sucks as a coherent storyline (well maybe there is a logic to the whole thing, if so, i will salute them).

I just watched both Captives and Thinman for the first time today and they are enough to make you tear your hair out. On the one hand Captives makes out that this is an ordinary brotherly spat that they are equally responsible for and on the other hand .... well Thinman is a reprise of the entire season to date (like Hamlet's play with in a play) ... and it clearly says 'lying to your partner is bad, it means they can't trust you' - a sentiment Dean heartily agrees with when he thinks it is Sam doing it, but when Dean does it, it's ok. (for the record can someone add up the number of 'I'm ok' and 'I'm fine's from Dean this season - those have always been accounted as 'lying' when Sam does it).

I don't understand why Dean's point of view is given to us constantly by various characters while the actual story that happens says different. I don't understand why Sam is not allowed finish a sentence and why his lines keep getting cut so that you have to guess from Jared's acting what the story is trying to tell us (and Jared is doing a fantastic job considering HE doesn't know what the storyline is going to be in 4 episodes time). This season is actually even more frustratingly confusing than last season and that is saying something....

TL: DR: Removing Gadreel as a 'big bad' or at least muddying his guilt a little, means the finger of blame no longer points solely at him. And if it wasn't him then it was Dean. Sam doesn't really have a beef with Gadreel on a personal level (even Jared has said so). He DOES have one with Dean. Dean trusted a perfect stranger over Sam 1/2 a day after (supposedly) telling him that he wouldn't do that to him. If Dean and Sam are ever going to get their relationship back then Dean has to face up to his attitude towards Sam, and he has to face up to what he did, and why he thought it was necessary.
Sam needs to begin to believe in himself and his ability to make good decisions again because this lack of trust by Dean while asking for undying loyalty from Sam (which he has actually always had from Sam, he just can't see it) looks like it is going to be a recurring pattern.

A note: Dean accepting the MoC while deliberately ignoring the side-effects/ru les that go with it may be because he is punishing himself for allowing that to be done to Sam with the trick about letting the angel in in the first episode. It is so sad (for both of them) that he would rather punish himself than apologise to Sam.
E
# E 2014-05-11 08:15
Thank you Abby S and eilf for your points of view.
Quote:
TL: DR: Removing Gadreel as a 'big bad' or at least muddying his guilt a little, means the finger of blame no longer points solely at him. And if it wasn't him then it was Dean. Sam doesn't really have a beef with Gadreel on a personal level (even Jared has said so). He DOES have one with Dean.

This is a good observation eilf. I think my main problem here is not actually whether or not Gadreel gets to be redeemed it's weather or not both he and Dean take responsibility for what they've done. As Abby S says, everyone deserves a chance for redemption. I think my main problem is in the lack of acknowledgement and atonement by either Gadreel or Dean; and since Dean is Sam's brother, and a human, his lack of taking responsibility sits heavy in my heart. I mean, isn't Sam worthy of at least that much from him as his brother? Dean has admitted to the audience that he KNEW he was stepping over a line, he clearly feels bad over any number of things that occurred as a result of the possession, but he has not acknowledged that to Sam, has not said sorry, has not asked forgiveness. And until that happens, part of me will be giving both Dean AND Gadreel the stink eye because of it. Sam said in First Born "being human means taking responsibility, " and he couldn't' be more right. He said the same thing basically in season 5 when he jumped into the pit. Gadreel needs to take responsibility for his actions and so does Dean. Right now I see Dean punishing himself, that is not taking responsibility.
eilf
# eilf 2014-05-11 09:19
I couldn't agree more E. And what I was saying in the most long-winded way possible is that they potentially have all their ducks in a row for there to be a resolution to this storyline and a way for Dean to understand what he puts his brother through so regularly (I know people generally say that the other way around, but I believe Sam does 'get' Dean, and always has. While Dean does not, at all, 'get' Sam).

Or maybe for Dean to realize that they can't be brothers UNTIL they are partners. Nobody could say that the way Dean is treating the idea of being 'partners' is something that a real 'partner' whether police, or FBI, or hunter would put up with for two minutes (see: Mother's Little Helper and the most recent episode). Partners need to have each others backs and they need to trust each other. Sam doesn't really just want to just be partners, he wants to take away everything else that influences how Dean sees him so that Dean can see the 'partner' bit, and then they can put back the rest of their relationship in a way that is more healthy.

At the moment it isn't working, the Mark of Cain is removing every remaining bit of empathy from Dean and leaving him with a 'clarity' and the clarity seems to be Dean's core Sam issue, which is that he resents him. Hopefully whatever happens with the MoC will result in the burning away of this childhood hangover and leave Dean feeling better about himself, because in reality there is nothing that Dean resents Sam for that Sam has actually done wrong. And there is nothing that Dean resents him for that Sam can fix. He has tried to fix it all at different times and it has never made any difference to how Dean feels about himself and by extension how he feels about Sam.

Or at least sometimes that seems to be where these past two seasons have been going, but, who knows? Gadreel is pretty (so maybe they are just reconning to make him totally sympathetic like they did with Benny) and Dean's manpain is apparently fun to write (and I guess for a lot of people fun to watch? It isn't for me any more because it isn't coming from an angle that I can sympathize with the way I could back in season 2) and Jared says what is so interesting to him about Sam is his vulnerability (but a character should be vulnerable in a way that makes a coherent storyline, not to which writers are writing him) and they have a whole nother season to screw with us ....
nightsky
# nightsky 2014-05-11 11:01
Quote:
Only, this roommate snuck into your room, went through your clothes, wore your jewelry, read your emails and diary, stole money from your bank account, watched you sleep through a crack in the door, spied on you while you showered, listened in on your phone calls, and then made you feel like you were crazy to think something was wrong.

ROFL! You must have had some horrible roommate experiences!! You made my morning! (The rest of your point is very valid and I'm glad you shared it with us, but your analogy was fabulous!)
E
# E 2014-05-11 13:22
I was thinking of that movie "Single White Female." Scared the crap out of me!:)
amyh
# amyh 2014-05-10 23:44
So, Dean is going darkside so he could kill Abaddon and stop her from....sitting around drinking martinies'. ok then.

I have no problem with Gadreel getting redemption....b ut not at the expense of whitewashing what was done to Sam. The guy thought he was loosing his mind, going crazy from the memory loss and gaps in his memory. Sam should be treated with the same respect as the other charectors...he deserves it. I do think it would be cool if Sam and Gadreel was able to bond during a confrontation and Sam eventually offering foregivness AFTER Gad expressed remorse. Sam needs someone other then Dean to interact with...but I'm sure the wirters will keep Sam isolated...he's not a person...just their plot device.

I know GAvin came across as a moron.....but he also came across as ambitious. Somehow I can see the guy - feeling all entitled as a Prince of Hell - carving a little niche for himself. Kind of a "You dont want to say no to me; my dad is the KIng of Hell." I can see GAvin encroaching on Crolwys territory a bit. Gavin is goonna have big dreams.

Deans use of Sammy...once a term of endearment is now used in contempt and derision. By using the name Dean is putting sam in his place, reminding him Sam is merely the snot nosed little brother who must be sent on a snip hunt while the big dog deals with business.
nightsky
# nightsky 2014-05-11 10:57
Quote:
So, Dean is going darkside so he could kill Abaddon and stop her from....sitting around drinking martinies'. ok then.
This line is priceless! It took me 3 or 4 paragraphs and several pictures to say the same thing. I cracked up when I read it. I tip my hat to you!
Quote:
I do think it would be cool if Sam and Gadreel was able to bond during a confrontation and Sam eventually offering forgiveness AFTER Gad expressed remorse.
I like this idea too. Many comments above discussed the idea of redemption. Some of you (again) were very eloquent in your exploratio of this concept. Redeeming oneself rarely takes away the pain of what was done before, nor does it magically make it right. Redemption cannot happen without remorse and atonement. Redemption also means you recognize your failings, and resolve that from this day forward you will do better. All the components must be there.
Quote:
I can see Gavin encroaching on Crowleys territory a bit. Gavin is gonna have big dreams.
Interesting speculation. I didn't give a lot of thought to Gavin's likely future, but I can absolutely see your predictions coming to pass. Humor, snark, and sometime to keep Crowley on his toes! I like!
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2014-05-10 23:49
Reversals

- Will Abel have to kill Cain (i.e. will Sam have to kill Dean), or will the foreshadowing from “First Born”of Cain accidentally killing Colette come to pass? Will Dean accidentally kill Sam?

Noooo, I hope not!

- Sam is watching Dean change under the power of an addiction and is (so far) powerless to stop it, just as Dean was powerless to stop Sam’s addiction to demon blood.

It is turning worse... We can only speculate how it will go.

- The demon vessel may have angel grace in him; the angel vessel now has a demonic power growing in him.

This might play a part.

- Sam did not stop Dean from killing his prey (Abaddon) just as Dean couldn’t talk Sam out of killing Lilith. Both demons needed to die, but will there be unintended, global consequences again?

Everything is possible.

- Metatron=Chuck. Metatron is hogging all the prophet powers for himself. That would be another parallel to him being Chuck, the chronicler of the Supernatural story.

No, I don't see Metatron as Chuck. Chuck was writing the things he Saw. Metatron just writes what he likes and well. He is a bad guy. :D

Will someone else turn out to be who they aren't supposed to be?

With Crowley the red black smoke might mean loads of things but as you asked it... I was thinking could it just have a simple answer? Maybe the smoke is like that because... Well, he is the king of hell? Maybe the ruler has a different color because of that? I know it might be too simple answer but... I also think he knew exactly about the back door to heaven.

I think you might be right about the spy angel... It would seem so.

Castiel's grace belongs to the category=NOT GOOD!
Gavin seems to be new trouble and they really spend time to introducing him as character. Who knows!
I hope that is true about Jody and A4. Hunters life is tough but those two would really kick ass.

Also the fan talk. Like someone else said. I didn't see it like that either. Ezra did seem like a "fan" so I am not sure it was directed to us. (I think J2 would never say the lines like that) But that is also how people regard it. Some might only jump because the boys said the word "fan" in their interrogation.


- Lilah
LEAH
# LEAH 2014-05-11 00:04
Quoting amyh "Deans use of Sammy...once a term of endearment is now used in contempt and derision. By using the name Dean is putting sam in his place, reminding him Sam is merely the snot nosed little brother who must be sent on a snip hunt while the big dog deals with business."

Sorry amyh I don't think that is true at all. There have been more and more negitive comments this week about Dean. Fair enough, but when someone says that Dean says "Sammy" in contempt and derision I have to disagree. Even though they have had harsh words and the MoC is affecting Deans personality, I have seen no indication that Dean feels that way at all. In fact in most circumstances he is as protective of Sam as always. I think the lying to Sam was partly to protect him and partly to fulfill his primary objective to kill Abaddon on his own. He knew he would be ruthless and excessively violent. Sam has been worried about the blades effect on Dean so why have Sam see that?

That said, I have no idea what Dean is capable of as we approach the finale and it worries me. If he does harm Sam, it won't be because he doesn't love him. It will because he has gone completely darkside and is no longer Dean!
iamsam1013
# iamsam1013 2014-05-11 00:23
Until reading this article and the comments, I didn't think there was any way that Dean would kill Sam, deliberately or accidentally. Now, I'm not so sure. And that is a scary thought because I'm not sure that Dean could ever forgive himself if that happens.

This will be the first season finale that I watch in real time (binge watched the first 8 seasons on Netflix), and it airs on my birthday! I think I'm terrified!
Abby S
# Abby S 2014-05-11 01:43
Hey iamsam1013,
Glad to hear someone else did a crash course on Netflix too! I did seven seasons. I find myself often wishing to just click to the next episode this season. it has been a ride to say the least. All I can say is welcome to the ride; waiting is horrible. And awesome. and horribly painful. and awesomely rewarding.

Because I'm so new, I sometimes feel that I still have some of that newbie enthusiasm that seems to have worn off some of the other longtime fans. No judgement here or anything; suffering nine years with these boys is a job in of itself. But after getting so attached, expectations are never met and I have tried to make sure to just enjoy the boy and the stories because one day it will stop being live and there will be nothing but reruns. No more new episode to long for and pine for and dream about; so I am just trying to love every second I have with them before they leave us. Sometimes, concentrate lends itself to just "riding the wave" so to speak and not having much of an opinion about what happens. More of a "Just tell me what happens next" sort of mentality when you know the next episode will appear 10 seconds after the current one ends. In the interest of fairness, I will say that the two years I've followed episodically, I do see how waiting these long weeks for each episode to come out somehow makes one so much more invested in what happens. I just love to see something new and each episode is kinda like getting to go to the cool kids party. I'm just happy to be along for the ride while it's still "live", if you know what I mean.

Not sure why I'm talking about this; hope its not offensive. Its just meant to be a perspective.

Anywhoo, I also wanted to say that although I think killing Sam would be "something the boys haven't faced yet". I dont think that is where all this is headed.
I heard someone (sorry cant remember who said it) mention that season eight might come into play. If you "think about what we know. killing hellhound, curing a demon" etc, one has to start thinking about DarksideDean, DemonDean and wonder if Sam knowing how to cure a demon might be the only way to save him?
But honestly, I think this is going to be about Metatron and his move against humanity. Maybe Sam saving Dean. or Trying. and possibly Dean doing something that causes havoc of Apocalyptic size. His turn, so to speak. This season has been compared to season 4 so it would suggest that, right?
I personally think this MoC is getting saved for Season 10.
Cheers!
iamsam1013
# iamsam1013 2014-05-11 08:10
I hope you are right! I have a lot of "newbie" enthusiasm, and it's been hard to read some of the criticism. I've really enjoyed this season, and I think the stories and writing are amazing for a show that is 9 years old.
eilf
# eilf 2014-05-11 03:05
I think that the close link the viewers have with some of the writers is both a blessing and a curse, on both sides (the situation with the actors is something that has always been and it is more complex).

On the one hand it adds a whole layer of entertainment to know that you can actually communicate with the writers. But it is really really bad when they let what the small proportion of viewers on a social network actually influence what they write. It is perfectly obvious that some of the writers have been doing that to appease noisy minorities. They have managed to both annoy the(se) viewers by pretending that storylines exist, when they don't exist, and everyone knows they aren't going to follow through (thankfully), since it would never be enough for these particular viewers. AND land themselves in the awkward situation that the actual storyline they want gets drowned out by speculation about stuff that isn't even IN the story. From this point of view I think that the writer/viewer interaction is a terrible thing.

On the other hand we viewers really do give them a hard time. Some of it is deserved, to a certain extent, and some of it .. well it is only a TV show when all is said and done (yes, I just posted an epic complaining about the storyline as if it was a real-life injustice), and they (probably) aren't actually trying actively to piss us off. And even if the storylines were perfect and the canon true, we would likely find something to complain about, it's human nature.

Personally I think they are entitled to occasionally ding us back :D I don't take offense at it, I wasn't offended by the portrayal of crazy fans in 'Time for a Wedding' either. I thought it was funny, and Becky is nuts, but ....

As I understand it the attitude of 'I'm an X and I don't get offended by portrayal of X this way' is a time honoured method of annoying people, so for that I am sorry, but I was somewhat entertained by the sass. It maybe helps that these particular writers don't bother me as much as some of the other writers do though. ;)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-11 09:46
iamsam and abby s Just remember these are just opinions of a small group of fans. This is a fantastic show that many fans feel such a deep connection to that we can sometimes get carried away with critical thinking. We complain because we care. If you haven't checked her out already might I suggest SweetonDean's BlogSpot. Her reviews are always positive and fun. Also she has a very fun podcast after every episode. It's an in depth analysis and it is usually hilarious.
Have fun with the show. It is being produced for our entertainment.
E
# E 2014-05-11 10:12
OK. New theory for how this season ends… my current prediction that Dean will kill Sam has made me depress myself and I fear caused others to be depressed as well. So, here's my new, awesome prediction for the end of this season!

Dean goes completely off the rails, devolving into his this uber violent killer driven by the MoC, glorifying in violence and wrecking havoc wherever he goes. He seems unstoppable, his power reaching unimaginable heights. He kills Metatron, thereby unwittingly stopping the angel war in it's tracks. Nothing seems to reach him, not even the voice of his beloved brother. All seems lost as Dean's soul is slowly corrupted into the new First Knight of Hell.

Sam, working with Castiel and Gadreel (for his redemption) scour the collective knowledge of humans and angeldom alike for the answer to saving Dean; Sam's desperation knows no bounds; he considers all manner of intervention, challenging his own dictates of what kinds of lines he will cross when it comes to saving his brother. He confront's Cain who tells him there is no hope. (Sam walking in Dean's shoes). After much searching and angst, (gotta have angst!) Sam discoveres an obscure text (maybe in the remnants of Bobby's old library) of a certain small amulet that can counteract the effects of the Mark of Cain, a certain amulet that burns hot in the presence of God. Castiel is despondent thinking that the amulet must surly be lost as it's not been seen lo' these many years. But then! Wonder of wonder, miracle of miracles, Sam reveals that he has been holding in safe keeping the amulet all along as a symbol of his hope that he and his brother will once again be close enough to warrant Dean wearing it as a symbol of their brother hood.

Sam, Cas and Gadreel then set a trap for Dean, and in an epic battle, Sam wrestles the amulet around Dean's neck; Sam is mortally wounded in the fight, sacrificing himself to save his brother. He lays bleeding and dying in the aftermath. The effects of the amulet are immediately felt by Dean as the MoC is slowly burned from his arm. (Perhaps this is a painful process, can't have enough suffering IMO, and since Sam is already suffering, lets have a little Dean pain too.) Dean, still shaking off the remnants of the Mark, goes to Sam's side. In shock and horror he realizes how far gone he was, what his decisions this past seasons have wrought and what his addiction to the First Blade made him do. It made him kill (almost) the thing he loved best (callout to season 2) and it's this realization that allows him to ask Sam for his forgiveness while also letting him realize that he is truly loved by his brother and that he is worthy of his own forgiveness (Dean walking in Sam's shoes).

Cas moves in to heal Sam but finds that he can't because of the waining power of his dissolving grace won't let him (plot set up for season 10, Save Cas!). In a final act of redemption, Gadreel moves in to save Sam, healing him of his wounds in his first truly selfless act of his existence. He too acknowledges his part in the possession debacle and goes to reclaim Heaven with a renewed sense of purpose; vowing to find and restore Castiel's grace to him.

Aftermath: Dean is saved and gets to see that his brother does love him and will save him at any cost and that he is worthy of that love, Sam gets to save Dean as he has been trying to do since season 3, and see Dean's POV about the lengths he will go to when his brother is in danger of loosing his life and/or immortal soul. The amulet is restored (yeah!) Gadreel is redeemed, and Cas has a set up storyline for next season. Ta-dah! How's that? Think it'll happen? :D
nightsky
# nightsky 2014-05-11 10:32
Do you write fanfic? You should! I love your imaginary scenario!
eilf
# eilf 2014-05-11 10:44
Love it E, I think all theories moving forward should be written in the format of ancient scripture. The word 'lo' doesn't get used nearly often enough.

This is exactly the sort of interconnected complex multifaceted storyline I would love to see. And I will accept it as head-canon for the next couple of weeks at least :D

My guess is that Sam is going to try and steal the blade from Dean to try and protect him from it and it is going to go wrong and Dean is going to turn on him (since he is currently possessed by its power) and that Sam or Sam and co are going to try to lock Dean up for his own good ... I don't think it is going to end well for any of them short term :( But a good storyline is all I am really asking for :-)
E
# E 2014-05-11 10:56
:P
LEAH
# LEAH 2014-05-11 11:14
I think I enjoyed reading your scenario so very much more than I am going to like the actual finale. Time is so short I think they are gonna kick us in the gut and move on to next year. I hope there is some hopeful direction at the very least! :)
E
# E 2014-05-11 12:09
Yeah… this episode would be about 4 hours long I think, not that I would mind! ;) I tried to think of a way the sum up all the plot points and give everyone a little bit of what they'd like to see; Dean going dark, but then being saved, Sam doing the saving, Dean realizing Sam loves him, Sam realizing that Dean's protection of him is worth having, Gadreel being redeemed, Cas having a storyline going into next season. Oh… and I tried to get that much missed, much loved, much longed for amulet back in there to boot.

You're right, there isn't much time left. Either the MoC will get resolved and the angel story will go into next season or vise versa. Not sure which story will continue but I am also not sure how much longer we can go with Dark Dean the way he is. He's so violent and out of control already that something pivotal needs to happen soon, the story can't just keep going with him begin off the rails as he is now; things have reached some kind of crisis or they will very, very soon so I see a resolution coming up. I think the angel story has more potential for longevity, especially now that we know Misha is back full time in season 10, so my bet is on the MoC being resolved and the angel story moving on, but I hope I'm wrong in that, cause I like the MoC story better.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-11 12:12
E that is so weird I had the same Samulet scenario. That was perfect! You know JC is the one who wrote how important the amulet was. It could happen.
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2014-05-11 13:06
E, I love you! No seriously. What ever happens and where ever the story goes you should write this as fan fiction at least. I also described to Cheryl and Leah. Probably Helen too my season 10 happy place. It was different but to same direction a bit. Anyway, you succeeded. This was a nice "speculation" if you can call it. (It would be so cool if it did went to this direction).

You made it almost like a story. Own episode! It was really good. :)

- Lilah
debbab
# debbab 2014-05-11 10:44
Cas was also supposedly killed in season 5 twice. Once in Chuck's house- Sam finds a tooth in Chuck's hair. And in "Swan Song" by Michael for disobedience. Both times Cas re-appears with the thought that perhaps God brought him back. I do wonder what Bobby is doing up in Heaven as he is not one for a rocking chair.
debbab
# debbab 2014-05-11 10:50
The calm before the storm of the episode reflects the opposite of Dean and how calm the blade makes him feel. He doesn't struggle with the right or wrong of killing under the blade's influence.Sam seemed to be the same way in season 6. Neither of them needed sleep under the impaired soul category. Dean did not want his weakness, Sam, to distract him from his mission. Crowley is juxtaposed now having family feelings for Gavin. Gavin, the prince of Hell- now this is either going to be a big bad in season 10 or a dropped potato, but the line about not changing history was blatantly stated. Or was Gavin such an insignificant blip that neither his death or life would have changed anything.
nightsky
# nightsky 2014-05-11 11:13
I just wrote something similar, way up in the comment list (like #3!) in reply to someone else. SoullessDean? I think I might have to use this title for my last two episode summaries.
E
# E 2014-05-11 11:18
I agree, it seems quite a bit like Dean is loosing his soul and much of what he's going through reminds me of Soulless Sam; the calm, calculated way of looking at a situation and choosing the path of least resistance regardless of who that ends up hurting, the lies, the lack of feeling or concern for family etc.. but there is one noticeable difference: Dean seems to revel in the violence itself; he seems to prefer is as his method of dealing with things, often turing to it directly without considering other, more probable methods, like in the angel interrogation scene, or letting it go way beyond what is necessary such as in the overkill of dispatching Abbadon, (which reminded me a little of the ghoul kill in season 4's Jump the Shark). The blade seems to be igniting in Dean a love for violent the acts themselves, feeding from the sense of power it gives him; violence for violences sake alone. I didn't find that Soulless Sam necessarily choose violence as a matter of course, he wasn't above using it but seemed dispassionate about his violent acts, they were simply a means to an end and an expeditions way of dealing with a situation, but he didn't seem to relish or enjoy it the way Dean does at the moment, which is why Dean is positively frightening at the moment.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-05-11 14:47
Gavin could have been insignificant, but his ghost told Bobby where Fergus's bones were buried which is how Bobby got out of his deal. If Gavin doesn't die back then, Bobby is still going to Hell. OTOH, Bobby ended up in Hell anyway, so maybe it's not that big a deal or why Crowley was able to divert Bobby? On the third hand, Gavin didn't find out about the deal for the extra three inches until he came forward into our time, so maybe he is part of a closed time loop?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-11 12:21
I think that is why they brought up soulless Sam in MLH. That was supposed to be a foreshadowing for what was going to happen to Dean. I agree with E the MOC and the Blade are making Dean into Purgatory Dean x100.
Souless Sam knew that something was wrong with him and at first wanted to fix it. Until he found out it might kill him. His actions seemed more like survival. Dean is a whole new character.
eilf
# eilf 2014-05-11 12:54
Nightsky, here's a thread that might have been overlooked since it happened a while ago. Cain said that Dean was to come back and kill him. That might be important this season, but seems likely it will be next season. Cain seems to be stronger than everyone else. Maybe the fratricide comes into that scenario. (I really don't believe that Cain's version of that story is the truth, entire and nothing but....) Especially if it was a binding-type promise that Dean made. (Not sure that it was, could have just been a gentleman's agreement).
I think it is unlikely that Cain will reappear in the finale, though he could be linked to Gadreel through Lucifer's machinations? That would be a cool twist.

But it could result in Dean killing Sam, Cas killing Dean and Cas getting killed in the process, they might all end up in the same afterlife or different ones. Whatever, the three of them being dead at the same time is definitely something the show hasn't done before.(I may add that I don't like this scenario, it seems like (wait for it) overkill, but I don't like most of the others either ;) )
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-11 14:30
Personally, I thought the interrogation scene with the references to Bieber/Beckham was hilarious; I didn't think it was done in a mean spirited manner.

There has been an underlying theme of humanity this season; Castiel's time as human and how it is effecting his decisions as the leaders of Metatron's opposition. Crowley coming close to being human, and it's after effects. We now have a Sam who, for the first time in his life, appears to be unaffected by supernatural influences and, in effect, is experiencing a human/"normal" arc as well. And finally, we have Dean, who has always anchored the show, and many times, his brother, with his humanity, appears to be losing his. I'm fascinated to see how this plays out and how far Dean goes. On the whole Dean killing Sam thing, let's remember that Sam, all roided out on demon blood, came very close to strangling Dean to death in 4.21 so it wouldn't completely surprise me if they went there.

About the concerns regarding Sam's possession being whitewashed, I still think these are legitimate concerns and here's why. If you look back at S8, Sam's decision to not look for Dean was very controversial. The majority of fans, and Dean, did not find Sam's explanation acceptable. I'm not bringing this up to rehash the issue, because everyone has made a decision on this and moved on. However, the writers CHOSE to keep bringing this up; whether it was the offhanded comments all season by Dean, Dean's reaction in Southern Comfort, Bobby's reaction during his hell rescue, or Meg's reaction in Goodbye Stranger. The writers did this for a reason and it played a huge factor in Sam's confession in 8.23 Sacrifice. Just as then, it looks like the writers are doing this for a reason in S9; not entirely sure why, though, or what role it will play this season or next. But, then again, it would surprise me if they didn't have some sort of redemption arc for Gadreel; Tahmoh's a pretty well known actor and it would make sense they'd bring him back in S10.
Modo
# Modo 2014-05-12 08:04
Well I liked the episode even with the obvious flaws. But I kind of think there was a few things that mirror Crowley and his son and the brothers.

Gavin brought 291 years into the future and his big thing with his father is still the family issues, the fact that he hated his dad not the why he is brought there. Sam's automatic reasoning for Dean lying to him was that he was trying to 'protect' him from Abaddon. Not that Sam was considered a liability in the fight and either Abaddon or Dean could have been the one to kill him.

Still how the immediate family issues that effect him are preventing Sam from seeing the bigger picture of what is happening with his brother and the why Dean is in a sense embracing it - it is all Dean has right now. If Sam isn't careful the end of the season won't be Dean trying to kill his brother but just walking away while still wearing the mark because you can love and care for someone and not like them or want to work with them because they get in your way and considering that Sam and Dean still haven't dealt with a lot of their other issues and they are slowly stripping away Dean's need to have Sam at his side I think we maybe getting to that point if Sam doesn't do something other than show concern.
Amyh
# Amyh 2014-05-12 09:56
In essense....Deas is basically behaving like a 4 year old having a temper tantum because his brother said 'no' to him and now Dean thinks Sam doesn't 'wuv' him anymore. All because Sam is refusing to let Dean control him anymore.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-05-12 13:06
Amyh LOL My take on the situation as well. Dean needs to realize that Sam is a unique person of his own and that he has no right to control him as he's done for most of season 9. TBH I don't like Dean because he seems like such a whiney baby. But that's just my opinion. I don't speak for anyone else.