Warning
: If you have not seen tonight’s episode, “King of the Damned,” then beware spoilers ahead!

Episode Summary: 

There was a lot going on in this episode so instead of narrative recap, I’m gonna bullet point some things and then on to speculation.

1.       Castiel is the commander of the angel army against Metatron.

2.       Metatron is recruiting mini-Metatrons for his army.

3.       Abaddon is a smart girl who can time travel to the 18th century and make Crowley bleed. RIP Abaddon. Sorry you had a vagina and had to die.

4.       Gadreel was misunderstood (and god I hate that plot turn). He just wants redemption. Whatever, show.

5.       Dean liked the idea of torturing a bit too much, but that scene with Castiel and the boys where he requests their help is a mirror for On the Head of a Pin, in my opinion. But this time Dean wants to do it.

6.       Sam and Dean are not on the same page although they make a really good interrogation tagteam.

7.       Gavin is a little bit of an idiot and SHOULD HAVE BEEN SENT BACK TO HIS OWN TIME.

8.       Dean is lying and he don’t give a _____. BladeDean is hot but also almost robotic.

9.       Sam gets a voice! Yay! He’s worried. He knows where Dean is headed because you know the whole demon blood addiction of season 4.

10.   Castiel is trying diplomacy and he’s changed since season 6 Castiel, which was the last time we saw Cas in Charge.

11.   Abaddon had the best death scene ever. Ruby would be jealous.

12.   Crowley’s humanity is gonna be bad for us all.

Thoughts:

1.       Prime Directive Rule #1! DO NOT SCREW WITH THE TIMELINE. Captain Kirk learned this back in the day. If you save the pretty girl, Hitler wins the war! I feel Crowley’s “human” choice will be bad news down the road. It also connects back, thematically, to “Sacrifice” and making choices based on emotion rather than duty or reason.

2.       Castiel has an army but this time around instead of forcing the angels to do his will, he is trying to understand how to solve the war with words rather than might. This is the arc that makes the most sense to me this season. Castiel is becoming the righteous leader of heaven. This is his redemption arc. Unlike Gadreel, who SHOULD NOT HAVE ONE. Sorry, I have feelings about that storyline. Unfortunately, I think show cares little for my feelings and Gadreel will die in "honor" as a sacrifice. 

3.       Again, there are many season four mirrors in this season and this episode. Everything from the growing addiction that Dean has to the blade’s power to Castiel’s return to being part of the angels to a leather coated chick getting ganked in the stomach with a demon killing knife.

4.       BladeDean is gonna go DARK SIDE. That “no” at the end? That was the emotional shift in the relationship. Dean is not Sam’s partner anymore.

I really liked this episode and have MANY MORE THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS but I want to get this up so we can all start talking about it! Share your thoughts, speculations, fears, hopes, etc. with us! 

 

Comments  

htbrown07
# htbrown07 2014-05-06 23:14
I thought that Crowley returned Gavin to his own time, but told him that the ship sinks and he dies. Am I wrong? That would give Gavin the opportunity to make a different choice without actually changing the past.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-05-06 23:52
i think the scene with sam and dean interrogating the angel is important and a bit foreshadowing. it gives me hope. what I mean is....I have the utmost faith in sam. dean wanted to resort to his go to method of torture, but sam....sam resorted to his go to method of thinking. the way sam instinctively knew what to do to get at the truth, and he never had to lay a hand on the angel to do it. sam has always been logical. he's a thinker and a planner. he looks at the big picture. he looks before he leaps. this will be an advantage for him in his effort to save his brother. sam has already figured out that dean is turning into something. sam knows that he has to separate dean from the blade. I don't know if the conversation they had at the end will continue, but if it doesn't, it wouldn't bother me because it doesn't have to be continued. sam already knows that dean + blade = a lost brother. but sam has a few advantages. sam has experience. he knows exactly what he's dealing with because he's been through it himself. he'll be able to handle the situation accordingly. sam is smart. he's tactical. he just doesn't rush into things. he thinks long and hard and tries to come up with a solution. he knows he has to find a way to separate dean from the blade, I have no doubt sam will find a way to do that. sam loves his brother, he'll never give up trying to save him and he'll do what it takes to keep dean human or he'll die trying. I think sam's love is more powerful than that blade. sam also has backup ( cas). if sam had to, if he really needed his help, sam would ask cas for it and I have no doubt cas would be there.

i'm not really worried, i'm just curious. curious to see how sam saves dean. looks like dean, who doesn't really need the blade anymore, aint giving it up. seems to have become his weapon of choice, which of course has dean indulging in the power it gives him. I look forward to seeing how sam figures out a way to break up the relationship between dean and the blade. i'm also curious to know if having gad inside of him has given sam more of an advantage than he realizes. I was intrigued when cas started asking sam about gad and how much sam actually had been aware of. it makes me wonder what else sam may know.

was sorry to see abaddon go, but kinda knew that was coming. eager to find out what Crowley's next move is and what his true endgame is.

not counting gadreel out... he may be the key to finding the portal to heaven.

really enjoyed tonite's ep. was glad to see all the major players. looking forward to seeing sam save dean and delightfully curious as to how he'll do it. :)
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-05-07 16:02
Amen! I too have the utmost faith in Sam and c'mon! it's time for Sam to get a check in the "win" column. It's long overdue and I beleive everything you just said about him and dean.

I really enjoyed the episode too. Much more than last week's. especially when I consider who the writers are. I've long thought that those two have prpotential. But they need to be kept on a very short and very focused leash to get the best out of them and Sera Gamble didn't do that. Carver seems to have caught on.

I especially liked the interrogation scene. It was great. And I love the lttle smile that came to Sam's face when Cas hugged him. I found it funny that Dean just looked mildly annoyed, the Crowley and Son scenes weren't very exciting for me. I paid attention though because I beleive Crowley's humanity is going to have a big part to play in the finale or just next season.

the most frightening moment for me was watching Dean Jedi that Blade back into his hand. It was an illustration for me just how far down the rabbit hole he's fallen ( that scared the ____ out of me) and also bc Sam just missed seeing that. I think if he'd seen that, he'd have been a heck of a lot more alarmed then we saw at the end. Bt yes,he has put two and two together. he does have an idea what he's dealing with which is the first step in solving it.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-07 00:27
Not a favorable first impression but I will rewatch tomorrow. First thoughts -

How can Abaddon time travel? Up till now, only angels or humans using the power of their soul could do so? Add another chapter to the RetCon Appendix in John Winchester's Journal.

Why so much time on Gavin MacLeod? I guess he plays a role in S10's storyline? And, no dead Gavin, no Gavin ghost so does this mean Bobby getting out of his demon deal in 6.04 Weekend at Bobby's never happened? And, for that matter, why didn't they get the real Gavin MacLeod to play him?

I'm sorry but the angel story line just isn't working for me yet; I hope they have something interesting in store for that in the last two episodes.

Interesting conversation about Gadreel between Sam and Castiel. But, Gadreel needs to go down for killing Kevin.

The interrogation scene was amusing.

Sorry to see Abaddon go but that floaty thing she did at the end was kind of lame. When Dean lied to Sam and sent him to the basement, I knew how this was all going to play out. And, for that matter, why didn't Abaddon smoke out before Dean ganked her?

Why in the HELL didn't they kill Crowley when they had the chance? Even if Dean turn's out to be Crowley's bitch and refused to do so, Sam had Ruby's knife and could have, and should have, finished him off.

Nice change of pace, sending Sam to the basement, instead of knocking him out or tying him up when all the action was taking place. IMO they have done a very poor job of keeping both brothers actively engaged in the story at the same time in S8/S9.

So at this point, the "calm" Dean is referring to means he's either turning in to a demon or a psychopath. I thought Metaron was arrogant, but Dean is giving him a run for his money now.

Excellent point about a change in their partner dynamic when Dean said "No" to Sam's suggestion that they hide the blade somewhere far away.
debbab
# debbab 2014-05-07 00:37
Abaddon learned the time travel from Henry Winchester. The blood sidgel on a door blood leads to blood. Gavin's ghost in the past was because he went down with the ship. In this episode, gavin had yet to leave on the ship so he was not deceased yet or a ghost. Doesn't change he lore of SPN. Abaddon did not smoke out because she was taken aback by Dean's power. Surprised. Can't kill off Crowley- need a bad guy and at the present the Winchesters may have a use for him against metatron.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-07 06:48
yes, but Henry needed the power of his soul to make that work; last I checked, demons don't have souls. And, also, blood leads to blood, meaning Abaddon needed some of Crowley's blood to bring her to Gavin.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-05-07 10:59
Jody's soul is still in there so Abaddon used the power of that? There are multiple time travel spells and Abaddon used one we haven't seen before? Other than that, I've got nothing.
Trucklady
# Trucklady 2014-05-11 01:21
Just a friendly correction. It is Josie not Jody.:)
Grace232
# Grace232 2014-05-07 11:00
njspnfan - I think I know how she did it. Abbadon has been harvesting souls. Remember, we learned that in the episode Misha directed. I would bet she was able to get her hands on some Crowley blood from the woman that was informing to her while Crowley was on his blood bender, too. So - that is how she did it.
kaj
# kaj 2014-05-07 15:54
That can work! I thing Henry said he needs a few weeks of his soul to charge the spell. He didn't say exactly that it has to be the caster's soul. We just assume that it is
E
# E 2014-05-07 17:12
Abbadon had ample access to Crowley's blood… she shot him! Not hard to fathom she took some of his blood and some of her captive souls to complete the spell to get her back in time to nab Gavin.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-08 09:56
E - I think the time sequence is wrong; she shot him after traveling back in time to get Gavin.
E
# E 2014-05-10 10:44
Yeah, I realized that after the fact. :( My time sequence makes more sense than the episodes did. Abbadon should have shot Crowley early in the ep, menaced his wound a bit then sauntered off dripping his blood and we'd have been able to follow the logic of the time travel issue better. These writers just come up with big plot points and don't really care if the events in the episode track well, or if they follow their own established canon. Here's my take on how the conversation in the writers room went….
"Hmmm…let's see, we need Abbadon to time travel so she can go into the past to get Gavin to use against Crowley."
"Well, we've never shown a demon to be able to time travel before, that's only been angels."
"That's OK, she's Abbadon, she's like, really powerful, we'll just have her be able to do it, and not explain how."
"We never even showed Cain be able to do such a thing, or Crowley or even Lilith or Alistair… won't that be a problem?"
"Nah! the fans will never notice. Logic, creativity, common sense? We don't need none o'that! pesky old stuff, difficult to deal with anyway."

And why the season's most pivotal episodes are going to THIS writing duo is beyond me. Robbie Thompson, Rob Berens, Andrew Dabb, (is Daniel Loflin still around?) even Adam Glass (not my fav) have been shown to be better at connecting the dots than these two. Even the rookie writer, Jenny Klien's episode was more coherent in it's details than much of this episode.

Here's what I would have done: I'd have had Abbadon bushwhack Crowley at his meeting of demons and had her shoot him right away to prevent his escape and keep him from being any kind of a threat, then I'd have her acknowledge that Henry Winchester taught her all kinds of useful things while menacing his wound to get his blood. THEN I'd have had her use the blood to time travel, pick up Gavin, bringing him into the future to torture him to strong-arm Crowley into calling the Winchesters. Same events different order, the only different being that my way would have required Crowley to sit there with a bullet in him for more of the episode; but since he's a demon he wouldn't have been in any danger of dying, so no biggie on that score. It might even have made Crowley feel more vulnerable and Gavin more predisposed toward him in their conversations, which could still have been funny, but with some real tension in there to foster what seemed like really unlikely father/son feels between those two characters. Geez, why am I rewriting this? Ah, yes… because my ideas are better. :( which they shouldn't be, because I am not a writer. :D
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-10 11:32
Well to make my head hurt even more....why didn't Abbadon just kill Crowley. Wipes hands..one less item on the to do list.
E
# E 2014-05-10 13:35
Quote:
why didn't Abbadon just kill Crowley
My guess is that Crowley is going to be important going forward and into season 10. Actually, if Abbadon had shot him with the devil's trap bullet so he couldn't move it would have made her much more of a threat, Crowley that much more in trouble and willing to call the Winchesters, and her ultimate demise more fun and fulfilling. Think how much more shocking the whole Poughkeepsie line would have been had Crowley been paralyzed and bleeding, Gavin tortured and suffering and Abbadon holding the phone up to Crowley's ear with a 'get them here or else!' look on her face. Can you see his little rodent brain trying to figure out how to get out of the mess he was in and turing to the Winchesters as the lesser of two evils? That would have been awesome. I don't think I'm all that creative when it comes to story lines, how come the writers didn't think of the same thing?
pinetree3
# pinetree3 2014-05-07 02:02
Dean won't be Crowleys bitch because he's already Cain's bitch. And Dean isn't going to turn demon. If anyone would know about the MoC, it would be Castiel. And Castiel doesn't seem worried that the MoC will turn Dean into a demon. And Crowley should never be killed off.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-07 07:38
Would have to disagree; he might be the Mark of Cain's bitch, but not Cain himself.. And why would Castiel be in the know about the Mark of Cain? Up till recently, everyone thought the archangels had killed the knights of hell but that wasn't the case.
debbab
# debbab 2014-05-07 00:31
Dean's "no" to Sam at the end marks a deep division in their relationship. Although Sam thinks Dean's deception was an attempt to protect Sam, it was not. It was a focused Dean who did not want to have a human weak spot, Sam, to interrupt his mission. Perhaps the calm he feels is the lack of a soul which makes you question the right and wrong of a situation. Dean has the blade, he does not need Sam just as Sam had demon blood and thought he did not need Dean. Dark very dark. Yes. THe writers are going there. Crowley was written deliciously. The reappearance of his son, Gavin, and the screwing with the history because of Crowley's shred of humanity may open possibilities for season 10. Abaddon was resolved quickly tonight and it opened up the MoC arc real wide. The interrogation scene is a throw back to Alistair and how Sam manipulated Dean away from the violence. The Gadreel redemption, double agent thing I expected. Nice to see Cas at command central. Surprisingly solid and entertaining story from the two writers who I usually expect the least from for Dean and Sam.
mary9930
# mary9930 2014-05-07 06:12
I was shocked at how Dean had little interest in saving Sam by sending him to the basement. I agree that he thought Sam would get in the way and almost seemed annoyed that Sam was a weak spot. Dean has said things like that before but it was usually in his snarky voice which belied his underlying concern for Sam. Then his "no" at the end was way different than the times he's wanted to be the boss & do things his way. Dean doesn't seem to care if Sam is on his team.
Puck
# Puck 2014-05-07 10:31
Thinkin' that Dean still thinks Sam doesn't care about him. Dean's shut so much of himself down now that I don't think that Sam's concern in the car about ditching the blade even registered to him. Yikes! Thinkin' that Sam has now realized how much this rift between them has really cost Dean. I wouldn't be surprised if next week opens with them still arguing about it in the car a la five seconds later. Then again I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't do that either. We do know how the episode two weeks from now starts though: two guys from Kansas carrying on...
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-05-07 06:59
i'm not so sure if sam believed dean when he told him he sent him to the basement to protect him. i think sam is more attuned to dean than that. the reason i feel that way is because, as we saw in mother's little helper, i think it was, sam was able to recognize the "soulless" behavior, because he in fact had been soulless himself. if you recall in unforgiven, when brenna asked sam about his family, soulless sam replied " family only slows you down". dean's behavior now is the same as when sam had no soul. because sam's wall broke and he remembered everything that happened when soulless, he can now identify with what is happening to dean, imo. dean has already lied to sam in this eppy and i don't think he's prone to believe anything he's saying right now. like i said, sam as an advantage. experience. not only with the demon blood, but not having a soul. when sam was soulless, he had admitted to dean that he picked every word. sam knew how to lie. i'm just saying that i don't think sam is as naïve as dean thinks he is. sam has lived through what dean is going through, twice. he understands the addiction to power and he understands what it's like to have no soul. they are walking in ea. other's shoes. It's always been said, especially during hard times, that everything happens for a reason. well i believe this to be the case now. sam has suffered greatly in the past, but i think that experience will help him now. it will help him save his brother and maybe more importantly stop his brother. dean in this condition could be a detriment to more than just himself. i kind of agree with njspn fan. dean has always had the disposition in thinking he was always right, that he did things for the best, when in actuality he did what was best for him. with that train of thought, dean has made mistakes, like swiping lisa and ben's memories and having sam possessed by an angel. but as much as dean did these things mostly for himself, those weren't the only reasons. it does come from a place of love. but now that dean's heart is blackened, his disposition of doing what he does because that's how he believes things should be can lead to danger for everyone. the more power he consumes by handling the blade, the more he enjoys it, the less there is of dean Winchester. he will end up just as much a megalomaniac as metatron is now. only dean will become worse, because as much as metatron has an ego the size of a planet, metatron isn't without a soul. sam has to stop dean, because he'll end up the same as Lucifer...it seems to me that in this eppy the king of the damned wasn't necessarily referring to Crowley....it may have been referring to dean.

as i said, i'm not worried. i have the utmost faith that sam will save dean. he's got a lot going for him. he has experience on his side and he has love. ;)
LEAH
# LEAH 2014-05-07 01:28
Just finished the episode and I enjoyed it very much. Crowley was fun as usual. I like how Sam steered the interrogation in a different direction from what Dean was itching to do and smartly sensing what would be effective on the simpleton angel. I loved the Abaddon death scene. The crazed look on Dean's face, yikes! Dean is becoming very flat in his emotional reactions. Except the powerful ones that urge him to violence. I'm not sure Sam was really able to reach Dean this time, he seemed in a trancelike state until the violence was completed. This is going nowhere good. Understatement. :(
pinetree3
# pinetree3 2014-05-07 02:06
And once again we see that Dean will never stop lying to Sam. Never.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-07 07:43
don't you understand? that's all Sam's fault. :)
snoopy-1310
# snoopy-1310 2014-05-07 22:52
Welll both Sam and Dean have lied to each other. Lets not pretend Sam is any better than Dean in this area.
kaj
# kaj 2014-05-08 01:25
Ditto. Well, they learn from the best. John Winchester is a master at keeping secret.
Lilah Kane
# Lilah Kane 2014-05-07 02:24
1. Prime Directive Rule #1! DO NOT SCREW WITH THE TIMELINE. Captain Kirk learned this back in the day. If you save the pretty girl, Hitler wins the war! I feel Crowley’s “human” choice will be bad news down the road. It also connects back, thematically, to “Sacrifice” and making choices based on emotion rather than duty or reason.

Not sure if Crowley did that much. His son was supposed to be killed by the ship sinking. Now he just left him in the present time. Of course he can change the future there as he is supposed to be dead or did it happen this way also before? You never know with these past/present/fu ture timelines. I know the actor wasn't same (I think) but I actually liked this one. Don't tell me why. I think he just fitted the role.

2. Castiel has an army but this time around instead of forcing the angels to do his will, he is trying to understand how to solve the war with words rather than might. This is the arc that makes the most sense to me this season. Castiel is becoming the righteous leader of heaven. This is his redemption arc. Unlike Gadreel, who SHOULD NOT HAVE ONE. Sorry, I have feelings about that storyline. Unfortunately, I think show cares little for my feelings and Gadreel will die in "honor" as a sacrifice.

Castiel is actually doing it right this time. And I know most or some would like Gadreel to be killed because of Kevin. I am one that would like to keep the character in the show. (For some reason though I fear that I will be let down from that fact.) As I stated from past episodes. Sure, Gadreel wanted to survive and heal himself too but he also protected Sam, Dean, saved two lives and I actually felt that he cared and liked both Winchesters. He killed Kevin yes... but haven't Dean, Sam and Cass even done way worse on some point? Maybe there is more to Gadreel than meets the eye. He is just badly influenced. But on my mind Angel's are like children. It doesn't mean they are stupid. Naive maybe.

As we say... They are not humans and even Dean called Cass a child on one point. :D

3. Again, there are many season four mirrors in this season and this episode. Everything from the growing addiction that Dean has to the blade’s power to Castiel’s return to being part of the angels to a leather coated chick getting ganked in the stomach with a demon killing knife.


There is. I think many are walking in the others shoes this season. Can't wait to see where it leads.

4. BladeDean is gonna go DARK SIDE. That “no” at the end? That was the emotional shift in the relationship. Dean is not Sam’s partner anymore.

Oh, Dean is fine with torture. I am glad Sam found the "not so violent" way to do it. Sam is Dean's anchor but never the less, he was willing to torture. And the power Dean had in the end. I was like OH WOW and OH S***t! If Sam would have seen Dean levitating the blade back to his hand? He would have locked Dean up so fast that he couldn't even say: "Son of a bitch". Anyway, Dean is out of control and him saying no was clear in the end. I can't even describe how awesome the fight with Abaddon was. It was different, but holy hell...

I liked the episode. I really did. I think all was balanced and we got hugs!

- Lilah
dashnjo
# dashnjo 2014-05-07 02:42
Wow ... was not expecting Abaddon to get offed tonight! It makes sense though to narrow the long list of Big Bads down now that there's only two episodes left this season. Between her and Crowley she was always going to be the one to go, she's scary and powerful but he's far too cagey to be taken out by her. Now we're left with Crowley in Hell probably trying to secure his place at the top of the food chain and Dean is left far different than the Dean we've known this whole time. And he's in deep and doesn't even really realize it, just like Sam didn't with Ruby. He scares me a bit right now! Sam hopped up on demon blood didn't seem this dark!

I agree I will never completely forgive Gadreel for killing Kevin, but before Metatron got to him he seemed scared (although we didn't know why) and, yeah, he made Dean kick Cas out and wouldn't let Dean tell Sam and I didn't like him for either of those things. Metatron already proved he's cunning when he tricked Cas into performing the "trials" and he knew who Gadreel was and how to get through to him, just as he did with Cas. Gadreel lived in the bunker for a long time with Kevin and it wasn't until Metatron came along dangling a new beginning and redemption to him that he killed Kevin. End of the day, he still killed Kevin but I'm okay if he dies heroically saving Cas or Heaven (both preferably) as long as he's gone by the end. He killed a part of Sam and Dean's family ... maybe part of his redemption is to save the other part of their family.
Daisymae
# Daisymae 2014-05-07 08:34
I was wondering where the "human" in Crowley would lead and now we know. Wow, that was good. I had though Dean would become Crowley's knight, but that doesn't look like that now. I would have hated that. I have to watch again, as usual. SPN preempted next week-Crowley where are you?
Scullspeare
# Scullspeare 2014-05-07 09:01
Quote:
1. Prime Directive Rule #1! DO NOT SCREW WITH THE TIMELINE. Captain Kirk learned this back in the day. If you save the pretty girl, Hitler wins the war! I feel Crowley’s “human” choice will be bad news down the road. It also connects back, thematically, to “Sacrifice” and making choices based on emotion rather than duty or reason.


When Crowley refused to send back Gavin, I got the definite impression the "Butterfly Effect" will come into play by the season finale and launch the mytharc into Season 10. I mean, Bobby contacted Gavin's spirit in 6.04 Weekend at Bobby's and used information Gavin gave him to get his soul back. from Crowley. If Gavin's not dead, there's no spirit to get information from, and that alters the timeline very close to home for the Winchesters. Just how remains to be seen....
Puck
# Puck 2014-05-07 10:49
Like maybe bringing Bobby back? I miss Jim Beaver!
Amyh
# Amyh 2014-05-07 10:05
I dont know what to make of this episode or the mark of Cain. AS someone upthread said Deans' "No" is showing Dean doesn't see Sam as his partner or care if he is on his team. But.....really Dean has never seen Sam as his partner...just a snot nosed little brother whom he must protect through manipulation and control. The Marc of Cain is simply magnifying this.

I disliked the writers whitewashing Sams' possession so GAdreel comes off more sympathetic. Sam thought he was going crazy due to the blackouts and lost time. Now all of a sudden he felt Gad was there and was a poor lost soul?

If I thought Castiel had the witherall i would think he was the one who killed the dunceAngel and set up the attacks tp get Gadreel to pass info. Serioussly? Gad is concerned about honor? more whitewashing. But then he only killed Kevin, his best friend and kidnapped SAms' body adn tired to KILL Sam in his own head.

Poor Abaddon...kille d for keying Deans' car. Seriiously how do we know Abaddon even had a hand in stealing souls ? Or whatever they were blaming her for? Because some demon said so? We know how cagey Crowley is and how he manipulates everything to hsi benifit. The King of Hell loves his long cons.

As to the MOC and Dean? Yeah, there is an addiction but I dont see any other negative consequences to it. If Sam 'saves' Dean he will somehow be wrong for doing so. So.....if Dean wants it...i say supply him with all the cheeseburgers and pie he wants and give him evil crap to kill. Maybe we can drop him int he middle of Chicogo? All those monster mobsters would keep him busy for maybe a week.
Puck
# Puck 2014-05-07 10:55
Ahahaha! Well played. And I say two weeks tops! But no cake--cake is not pie.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-05-07 10:57
1. Prime Directive Rule #1! DO NOT SCREW WITH THE TIMELINE. Captain Kirk learned this back in the day. If you save the pretty girl, Hitler wins the war! I feel Crowley’s “human” choice will be bad news down the road. It also connects back, thematically, to “Sacrifice” and making choices based on emotion rather than duty or reason.

Small note in Weekend at Bobby's Gavin told him "everything" including the fact that Crowley sold his soul for an extra three inches. In this episode, Gavin ASKS Crowley why he sold his soul and Crowley admits it was for an extra three inches. As of this moment all bringing Gavin forward has accomplished is for Gavin to find out the information he told to Bobby. Plus Ghost Gavin looked older than this Gavin, even though he was just about to leave for America. It is possible that Gavin will get sent back in time after spending time here because it always happened that way.

Also, Sam said Gadreel THINKS he's misunderstood. That doesn't mean he is misunderstood, just that he is having a little pity party for himself.
Puck
# Puck 2014-05-07 11:11
That's what my buds and I agreed is the only way without a potentially massive retcon. Besides...I didn't see him wearing the signet ring. If Fergus McCloud has already vanished from Gavin then wouldn't Gavin now have the ring? The ring Rufus stole and swallowed that Bobby used to summon Gavin in the first place? Maybe Gavin plays around in our time for awhile, gets sent back, and has aged from his experience before getting on that boat. ???
Puck
# Puck 2014-05-07 11:22
Maybe by next season I'll get used to the news commenting tool...There's this concept the just unleashed, because up until now SPN has handled time-travel fairly well.

[video]https:// www.youtube.com /watch?v=YsYWT5 Q_R_w[/video]
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2014-05-07 11:43
my dear show has lost it's way.

I am here til the end, friend.....
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-05-07 12:24
I’ve a different opinion to most people here (in that I’m not mad keen on it. Well, it’s not that I didn’t like it I just thought that it was, possibly unintentionally , hilarious) so feel free to skip over. (Warning given.)

I’m sure this episode was entertaining enough but for me, it was a huge no. Try as I might, I cannot get over the epic level of ridiculous that emanated from it, I just can’t.

Dean’s : “I can’t get over the fact that Crowley has a son”. Yes Dean, he’s the reason you ended up in Scotland, digging up Crowley’s bones back in season 6. You don’t fly that often so surely you remember the one time you actually left the country. (Unless with the time travel continuum and missing years here and there and butterfly effect and maybe you accidentally got into the car from Back to the Future instead of the Impala while out drinking or something, Dean never went to Scotland to get Crowley’s bones and everything that happened after that never actually happened.....)

Sam: ‘So this angel war is really happening.’ Yes, dearest. It’s been happening for about 5 seasons now.

Sam to Crowley after Abbadon is killed: ‘We didn’t kill you, isn’t that enough?’ Sam ten minutes later he’s all “We gotta kill Crowley”. Ah man, the stupid is contagious now!

Crowley’s son was brought back why again? (And while we’re at it, Dean took on the MoC why again?) And now, some guy from the 1700’s is up and about walking around in 2014. Okay then. And he’s the King of Hell’s son. I give Gavin a day before he’s mugged, raped and murdered on the streets of wherever the hell they left him.

Abbadon knows she’s up shit creek, knows Crowley is working with the Winchesters and she just stands there. She might be smart but she’s not smart enough to smoke out of there when things start going south. Unless this is a sort of self-sacrifice for a greater purpose ala Lilith in season 4 sort of thing (doubt it) then Abbadon was hit with the same stupid stick that every other character, bar Crowley (so far), has. Though Abbadon is now Eve Part 2; a red herring 'big bad'.

The angels are meant to be some big threat and something to be fearful of. The season 9 angels are about as scary (and smart) as a bagful of kittens. Jeez, if you dumped a box of cornflakes on the ground and told them it was a jigsaw then they’d get so caught up in it they’d never get around to having a war. I was almost embarrassed watching the ‘torture scene’ because it wasn’t that Sam and Dean were smart, it’s just that the top button tied grey cardiganed angel was so utterly, utterly stupid. That scene would have worked fine with a civilian or even a MOTW, but a freaking angel, who was interviewing for a high up job in Metatrons ranks?? And if that dumbass knows all about portals and the secret plan then Sam, Dean and Castiel would have nothing to worry about, they’ll have the whole thing wrapped up in a day. (Or in seasons past they would. Now they’d need an entire season; one episode to stop the war and 22 episodes to manpain about it.)

How many shots cutting between Dean (Michael Jackson pose, snarly top lip, looking kinda constipated, fighting that wind machine) and Abbadon (cackling evilly while occasionally furrowing her brow and showing us her lovely manicure) did we get? (Prediction for season 10, big bad will be a possessed wind machine) I know, I’m sorry, I know it was a hugely serious moment that was meant to show how consumed by the mark Dean now is and omigod is there any way back for him now and we’re all so scared for him etc etc but I was in absolute knots laughing at it. Then Sam’s hair comes in (too late) to join the action. The whole scene was just so clichéd and completely over the top. The show just doesn’t do subtle or gravitas any more.

Awww, Dean is Romeo and Juliet is Dean’s hellhound. Now Crowley’s attack dogs are a pair!

Sam goes “It’s not really something I like to talk about”. When has that mattered, Sam? Just tell them what they need to know; which evidently is lots now (I bet you feel like an awful gomb for not realising that while you were actually being possessed). And I’m guessing the possession storyline is now over. Three episodes ago Dean put the whole thing squarely on Gadreel saying he was going to make him pay for what he ‘did to Sam’ (um, Dean, he was doing what you wanted him to do, until you tried to expel him). That, combined with Kevin telling him to get over it and now the possession no longer being some horrible violation of body and mind, but more like ‘sharing a house’ (do you not want to share, Sam? God, you’re so selfish......), then possession really isn't all that big of a deal. I remember saying to someone at the start of the season that there is no way that the show will be able to just handwave away Dean’s actions this time. Well, fair play to you, Show, you managed to.

Aw Sam, it’s good to see that your trust in Dean is so absolute that when he sends you to the basement (on your own) to search for demons you don’t question him. Hasn’t he pulled that crap on you before? Too bad you being there to help him would risk screwing things up. Partners? Not even close. More lies, more lack of trust, more being treated like an incompetent baby who can’t be trusted to tie his own shoelaces. Ah yes, partnership, Winchester style. But don’t worry, Sammy, Dean is doing it all ‘for you’.

‘I don’t expect you to understand’. Noooo. Really Dean? You couldn’t expect the guy who (a) had telekinesis (b) was revenge driven (c) had powers (d) was going darkside etc to possibly understand you and what you’re going through......

If Dean does go darkside (and that’s a big ‘if’. The show doesn’t have a history of focusing on the consequences of Dean’s actions) then at this stage I hope that it happens in the second last episode of the series, and then he’s cured in the last episode because if I’m going to be subjected to another episode, let alone another season of Dean’s epic manpain, which is surely the epicest, manliest, painliest manpain that ever there was, then I will rip my eyeballs out. Six consecutive seasons of it is more than enough, thank you very much.

Pluses from the episode, Sam didn’t get knocked out or tied up to take him out of the action (he just got sent out of the room). That mustardy yellow coat pointless angel no. 4425 was wearing was nice, I wouldn’t mind one like it. And Gadreel looked well. Apart from that, and the fact that it made me laugh early in the morning, I’m struggling.

Glad you all enjoyed it.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-07 13:11
Tim - loved your more amusing take on the episode then mine from last night; gotta admit this is the first episode in a while that made me angry because of stupid and lazy writing. I was hoping they didn't whitewash Sam being possessed but, regrettably I think you're right; water under the bridge. On the bright side, Sam wasn't knocked out or tied up in this episode so I guess that counts as character development for him nowadays.

Am I the only one that has no sympathy for Dean whatsoever? His decisions and actions have led to all of this, and he refuses to take responsibility for it. He refuses to apologize to Sam (I guess he really can't because he isn't sorry). At least with Sam in S4/S5, you could kind of sympathize with him, being infected with demon blood as a baby, being manipulated (we find out in 5.22) by Azazel's gang his whole life. Yes, Sam made a lot of awful decisions, but ended up paying a huge price.

On one point I disagree; I do think Dean goes complete dark side at the end of the season, taking up sides against his brother.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-05-07 13:25
I don't think so. Logistically I don't think it would work. Unless you're planning on bring Dean back from the darkside very quickly (and you really couldn't do that because it would be a waste) in the new season then Sam and Dean will essentially be separated for a lot of the season. How would episodes like MoTW work when the boys aren't working together?

I could see killing Dean killing Castiel, or another one of his many adopted 'brothers' and I could see Dean stabbing Sam but Sam being saved, possibly by Gadreel (I dunno) but I still can't see that leading to Sam and Dean taking up sides against each other, more that Sam would stay with Dean even more in an attempt to bring him back etc.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-07 13:29
Tim - I agree it would have to resolve itself quickly but I still think Dean goes completely darkside; maybe not take up sides against his brother, but kills, or tries to kill, either Sam or Castiel or some other ally.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-05-07 15:24
sadly njspn, i fear you are not alone. i too have no sympathy for dean. :(
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-05-07 15:24
delete
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-05-08 20:43
"Am I the only one that has no sympathy for Dean whatsoever? His decisions and actions have led to all of this, and he refuses to take responsibility for it. He refuses to apologize to Sam (I guess he really can't because he isn't sorry). At least with Sam in S4/S5, you could kind of sympathize with him, being infected with demon blood as a baby, being manipulated (we find out in 5.22) by Azazel's gang his whole life. Yes, Sam made a lot of awful decisions, but ended up paying a huge price."

No, you're not the only one. I can't feel any sympathy for Dean as he brought this all upon himself. I'm ticked that Sam's possession story has been whitewashed and Sam has no right to feel anything unless Dean says it's okay. Disgusting!
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-05-07 13:27
I love this review Tim not E. Sorry brain glitch. You pointed out all the huge discrepancies. I did get the feeling that Metatron deliberately "recruited" flunky bunky angel for the express purpose of giving false information to Cas as part of his Machiavellian plan. The rest of the logic errors are pretty spot on.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-05-07 17:02
This was hiilarious. i didn't agree with all of it but it was greatly entertaining to read and now my co-workers think I'm nuts.

OTH, dean's manpain is truly indeed, epic And it was nice t see neither brother get hit in the head this time. I think the writers are catching on. (Has anyone logged how many times this has happened to them per season?)!

Yeah, Gadreel looked seriously sexy in all that black leather.
Puck
# Puck 2014-05-07 18:49
We should count! If we can be bothered to count how many green shirts each of them wear then why not headshots? Isn't that what hellatus is for? Don't all of their bad guys and gals wear black leather at least once? Except Crowley and Yellow Eyes.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-11 12:19
I've been working on this for the SuperWiki and should be done shortly; I had to go back because I missed a few. In early seasons it was pretty even but, by season 9, Sam has pulled ahead by almost a 2-1 margin.
E
# E 2014-05-07 17:50
Ah Tim, I just love reading your posts…:D. Hysterical and pretty accurate. I didn't hate the episode as much as you did and maybe I am willing to suspend my disbelief a little further, but I can see your point. A lot of what you say was indeed going on in the ep, by I found myself not minding quite as much as you did. I was actually somewhat pleasantly surprised as I don't really expect too much from this writing duo. Aside from some slow moments (yes, the Dean and Abbadon showdown was WAAAAAAAAY too long) it was not a half bad episode IMO, with just some dumb and cheese on the side. I'll miss Abbadon; he was quite the awesome red herring villain.

And I hat to say this but you can count me in the group that is not feeling much sympathy for Dean. I am trying to.. I WANT to, but he's pretty much created this whole pile of poo by insisting that he's Mr. Right, and now he won't own up to any of his decisions. Its basically getting on my last nerve and I find all of the attention being paid to how badly Dean is feeling rather indulgent. I'd like to see Dean be a man; own up to what he did to Sam, take responsibility for the MoC and his choices, not continue to see him wallow and indulge his 'feels.' The set up here is pretty good though. I hope that the PTB have the cajones to REALLY and truly go through with it. Let see Dean really go off the rails. The writers have always been really careful to never show Dean in a truly bad light (not the way that they have with Sam) so let's go there! There's been a lot of talk about walking in each other's shoes, well, if Dean truly goes dark, then he's going to get to run a marathon in Sam's and maybe in the process gain a little insight into what makes his brother tick… finally.
Puck
# Puck 2014-05-07 18:44
BWAHAHAHAH! Touche Tim! I snarkily agree, but be fair. You gotta admit they've been doing some pretty snazzy camera work showing Dean going off the rails and Abbadon has a nice manicure I'd show it off, too. ;)

Quote:
which is surely the epicest, manliest, painliest manpain
You know that was for us girls, right? But going after Sam's hair like that? Priceless.
Rick D
# Rick D 2014-05-09 22:48
LOL! Oh, classic Tim- thank you for this. You not only mentioned the things I thought were stupid, you pointed out some that I had missed. Particularly loved your comment about the cornflakes and the angels. All the better for me to hopefully escape the torment of S10, which considering Cass will be back- will just be filled with more angel nonsense I don't care about.
I never would have believed either that they could just handwave away what Dean had done to Sam, but I guess we both just lacked imagination when it comes to Carver, the King of Retcon. Now that they have the info they need to redeem Gadzooks, the possession will never be mentioned again. In fact, I seriously doubt that Sam will "save" Dean in this season finale, or even take much of an active part. Dean & Cas have important things to do. Dean has to kill Meta to avenge Kevin. Cas has to reunite the angels in heaven. Don't you have a basement to check out Sam? Maybe they'll have Sam shed a tear for how "mean" he's been to Dean- after it's too late of course. Like I said- all the better to make Game of Thrones my new fandom.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-05-10 01:44
Quote:
I seriously doubt that Sam will "save" Dean in this season finale,
I am sure that Sam will or can "save" Dean this season finale (joking).I am expecting Sam to die.
Quote:
or even take much of an active part.
I agree.Quote:
Maybe they'll have Sam shed a tear for how "mean" he's been to Dean- after it's too late of course.
Again I agree.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-07 12:33
We know that Abadon can travel through time because she followed Henry. As far as I know demons still have souls they are just twisted. But this time what blood did she use? Crowley in the past has been very careful with his blood. By the way I was kind of hoping that Josie could be saved. So the time travel thing may get explained later. But yes the whole time paradox thing is kind of a problem.
Sam is still able to get through to Dean but that is looking less and less likely.
Maybe this whole season Dean was the big bad and it was showing us how he gets there? IDK this episode was kind of weird. The whole angel war is confusing. I still don't know why they are killing each other. And trying to make Gadreel more sympathetic is going to be a hard sell. Not just because of Kevin but Abner, all the angels he killed for Metatron in MLH not to mention whatever the hell he did in heaven. I am with Sam's original assessment of psycho angel. And Cas asks Dean to torture (sorry interrogate) the red shirt angel? Did someone drop Cas on his head? OTHOAP ring a bell? And weren't you angry with Dean when you saw the Mark Cas? Shouldn't he have brought that up? Maybe share with the class (or at least Sam) what you know about it.
I did like that Crowley used the go word to give Dean a heads up. I guess that was the point of the hellhound so that Crowley could warn Dean?
So Gavin gets dropped off in some field somewhere, kind of Sleepy Hollow style. Now what, are Sam and Dean going to hunt him down and try to get him back on his ship? Sam kind of made a big deal about the time paradox thing. It was pointed out for a reason I'm assuming. Maybe a future spinoff?
Dean under the influence of the Mark and the Blade looks like it's leading to Hell. Kind of no surprise there.
I really need to watch this episode again. Very confused....
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-07 12:42
Tim that was awesome. This episode was better than Bloodlines but for an episode of SPN it kind of fell short for me as well. I'm sorry but the wind tunnel scene just reminded me of an outtake with Jensen flinging open a door while the wind whips his shirt. It just came off as a little silly.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-07 12:42
Cheryl42 - yes, but Abaddon traveled thru a portal that was already open; she didn't open it. She even mentioned to Henry something to the effect that he forgot to close it.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-07 12:46
I was just speculating that a demon could possibly travel through time as well but how Abaddon did it was confusing to me. The whole episode was confusing and maybe will be explained in future episodes. I kind of agree with Tim on this one. It was a weird (overacted) episode.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-07 13:13
Cheryl42 - I agree but will re-watch tonight and hope my opinion becomes more favorable.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-05-07 13:21
I agree with most of this especially the fact that redeeming Gadreel is going to be a tough sell. Yes this is Supernatural and good looking bad guys get redemption, but Gadreel has killed so many angels and possessed Sam (although the possession seems to be totally unimportant to anyone except the fans). I will say there is some wiggle room when it comes to Gavin. In Weekend at Bobby's Gavin knew about the deal for an extra three inches. In this episode he had no idea that Crowley had even sold his soul, let alone why. Since we have never seen people talking about their deals, it makes sense that Gavin wouldn't have known. So it looks slightly like Gavin came forward in time and then went back to die on the ship. But I do think it will come up again.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-07 16:22
Time Travel man!
kaj
# kaj 2014-05-07 17:04
delete double
kaj
# kaj 2014-05-07 17:06
delete
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-07 17:11
delete
kaj
# kaj 2014-05-07 17:08
I rewatch 8.02

Crowley : I bid ... my own soul.
Plutus : (laughing) Mr. Crowley, you don't have a soul.
Crowley just shrugged.

My conclusion is Crowley doesn't have a soul because he's a demon. Or at least his dark and twisted soul doesn't amount for anything and definitely can't be used for charging up a time travel spell. Human's soul is pure, and as long as it's pure it can charge up angels. If Demonic soul has power Cas has already us it to charge up. Even the soul of monsters in Purgatory are still more in use and Cas use it to amp up his power. Demons' soul, if they have any, are garbage just wasted dump that can't be used for anything other than pollute the word and spread evil.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-07 17:15
There is actually some speculation about what Crowley really is. Red smoke and all. But that is what Ruby.1 said to Dean before Dean went to hell. His soul would get twisted until he became a demon. That is how a demon can supposedly be cured. The twisted soul is saved or cured.
kaj
# kaj 2014-05-07 17:24
Can be but I still go with njspnfan's theory that Abaddon use human's soul to power up the spell. It doesn't necessary to use the caster's soul right? I'm thinking the spell need to tap the power of human's soul to charge it up because Cas tap the power of Bobby's soul to recharge his own power to bring the boys back from the Western past.

HENRY :My blood, an angel feather, tears of a dragon, a pinch of the sands of time – I – I would need those and... at least a week for my soul to recharge, but, yes, it's possible.

SAM :You tapped the power of your soul to get here? I thought only angels could do that.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-07 17:31
We really don't know what a Knight of Hell is. So maybe she isn't a true demon. Maybe they are made like Cain and now Dean. So who knows how they would be able to time travel. It just would have nice if we had a little explanation. I am hoping that Dean's soul will be intact after this little adventure. Next weeks preview clip reveals a little more of what Dean is going through.
kaj
# kaj 2014-05-07 18:00
That'a just it. There are things that left vague and ambiguous because then they can use it later and twist it. They need these hole and crack to expand the plot and recycle old ideas. Like the lore on reapers, the backdoor to hell in Purgatory, Where mosnter go if they die in Purgatory etc
E
# E 2014-05-07 17:28
Quote:
We know that Abadon can travel through time because she followed Henry. As far as I know demons still have souls they are just twisted. But this time what blood did she use?

A few people have asked this question… doesn't anyone remember? Abbadon shot Crowley, so blood galore, as much as she wanted. That, along with either the power of poor old Josie's soul or one of the dozens she's got locked up in jars would be more than enough for her to time travel. I can see the logic here, but I do agree that the episode did not do a very good job of connecting the dots. All they had to do was have one short shot of Abbadon managing Crowley's wound and then her walking off with her blood soaked hand to get the point across.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-07 17:35
Did she shoot Crowley before she collected Gavin? That would explain it. Blood has to connect to blood. I have to watch again. I'm hoping my opinion changes.
kaj
# kaj 2014-05-07 18:02
I think she collect gavin firstly in the episode and shot Crowley later before Dean came. But knowing Abbadon she could have found a way to get Crowley's blood. Crowley's been careless lately what with his growing addiction to human blood.
E
# E 2014-05-07 18:23
You know, I think she DID get Gavin first and then shot Crowley later. Humph, my logical plot progression shot all to hell. It would have made more sense for her to shoot Crowley first and then go get Gavin, which is probably why I remembered it that way. So, the only way to make sense of it now is to speculate that Abbadon's comment about Crowley's blood addiction was a VERY subtle indicator that she was aware of it and maybe had managed to get his blood somehow. See, that's what happens with this writing duo… very sloppy connections and plot points that don't track well leaving us all going HUH? How did THAT happen?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-07 18:28
We just shouldn't have to work this hard to make connections and sense of a script. Speculation is one thing but confusion is something else.
Scullspeare
# Scullspeare 2014-05-07 22:17
You're so right - and there's another wrinkle. Crowley's meatsuit is not related to Gavin, so the blood wouldn't be either. As Crowley said in last night's episode, "My soul did a stint in Hell, where it became demonized. Then, I had to possess another person so I could traffic with the living." I suppose Abaddon could have used a different blood spell, where any old blood would do. ;)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-08 03:24
I don't think I follow. Crowley is demon who inhabited Fergus (sp) MacLeod. But you do bring up a question, why does Crowley care about Gavin then? My head hurts.
E
# E 2014-05-10 10:11
Sorry for the late reply! You know, this does add a wrinkle… Crowley is the demon, Fergus McLeod is just Crowley's host of choice, an 18th century drunk who sold his soul (probably to Crowley in a different meat suit at the time) for a few extra inches of willie. So, why wouldn't Gavin recognize Crowley? He should.. he should see his drunk of a father, Fergus McLeod, but instead he's seeing Crowley. And why should Crowley, a demon care about the son of his meat suit? Even with the demon cure Crowley is still no relation to Gavin, so why should it bother him, except possibly on general principle, that poor Gavin will be sent back in time to meet his watery fate in a ship wreck? Is he feeling the feelings of his meat suit? That never seemed to be the implication of the cure, it was more the release the soul of the demon inhabiting the meat suit, or are they one in the same? But how can they be if Gavin can't tell that Crowley is his father? Oy!! So, so, SO confusing.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-10 11:22
And I repeat my head hurts!:(
Scullspeare
# Scullspeare 2014-05-10 16:57
You’re not the only one whose head hurts! Fergus MacLeod sold his soul for three extra inches of willy (I can’t even type that with a straight face!). That soul went to Hell where it was twisted into a demon. That demon took over the meatsuit of Crowley (a literary agent from New York) as he began climbing Hell’s corporate ladder, so he could interact with the living. Of course, none of that explains why Crowley’s smoke is red. There's nothing particularly special about either the soul (an abusive alcoholic from 18th Century Scotland) or the meatsuit - at least that we know of to date. So, does the smoke automatically turn red when you don the crown as King of Hell? Or is there even more to Crowley/Fergus MacLeod’s story?
Scullspeare
# Scullspeare 2014-05-10 16:57
Sorry, repeat post.
Scullspeare
# Scullspeare 2014-05-10 16:57
Sorry, repeat post.
LEAH
# LEAH 2014-05-10 13:50
Isn't the demon Crowley the twisted soul of Fergus and the meatsuit another person entirely? As for the demon cure that one still gives ME a headache.
LEAH
# LEAH 2014-05-10 14:00
I was never sure what the cure was exactly supposed to do. You have the suppressed soul of the meatsuit and the twisted soul of the demon, which one was cured? The demon's presumably, but where does that leave the meatsuits soul? Headache!
E
# E 2014-05-10 14:11
Actually that makes sense, and Crowley is using the name Crowley because a demon needs to protect it's mortal bones (per season 6's Weekend at Bobby's) so they go by aliases. THAT makes more sense now. So, basically that means we don't even know the name of the poor schlub that Crowley/Fergus is inhabiting. I feel sorry for that dude.
LEAH
# LEAH 2014-05-10 14:21
Yeah the meatsuits always get the shaft figuratively and often literally.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-07 21:59
Maybe the whore demon that Crowley was shacked up with in MLH snagged some of Crowley's blood. They did show demons playing both sides until someone dusted the other. And for that matter since Abbadon's death seemed kind of abrupt and she didn't smoke out like she did in the church does anyone think she might not be dead?
nicknicknicknick
# nicknicknicknick 2014-05-07 13:03
So who exactly is the "king of the damned" that's referenced in the title of the episode? Any thoughts?
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-07 13:12
Dean.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-05-07 13:22
The woe is me King or better known has Dean.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-05-08 20:49
LOL to the woe is me King Dean.
kaj
# kaj 2014-05-07 15:46
First Impression.

Ooohh so that's the true power of the MoC+FB combo. They give Dean more brute power against Demonic toss. That's pretty cool when the mark can call out to the blade when it's near enough and the bearer wants it badly enough. He even strong enough to lift Abaddon in the air with the blade. I think it fits. When Sam was given superpower, he mainly controlled it with his mind. (Telekinetic, Vision, Killing Demon with his mind, getting headache because of it) But when Dean is given superpower it's brute force. But Cain can do some telekinesis too although he prefers to do things hands on. That's why his weapon is a blade. Perhaps, next Dean can toss some lowly demon using telekinetic power. They better go all out if they want to give Dean some power to use and if they really go on darkDean route it'll be awesome. Dean's arrogance rivals Sam's when he was high on DB. Now that Abaddon died will Dean kill Cain? I think Cain will return in the future.

I think Gadreel will die dishonorable and for nothing because he couldn't make up his mind about things and he often makes bad choices in his life as an Angel. He is the kind of character that is easy to fool. I mean instead of owning to his mistake for letting the demon enter the garden he insists that he is innocent and not at fault. I bet he also doesn't think he was wrong by killing Kevin and other angels. He wants redemption but the first path of redemption is by admitting his sin. Gadreel doesn't deserve redemption. The way he's screaming 'it's not my fault, I was used, I just follow order. I give word to Metatron what should I do?' annoys me. Whenever he makes mistakes he blames others. Take responsibility to your action, damn it! He's like chameleon, switch side at the turn of the wind. I want Sam to kill him just to stop his whining. If his character doesn't grow in the future then there's nothing to explore about Gadreel.

I love Crowley's scene with Gavin. I laugh a lot when they try to explain the 21st century to him. My fav... "We're among the stars!" LOL Gavin, please stay around.

Jensen once said at ComicCon that he kinda wish to have some power like Sam but realize that Dean's role in the story was to be a mere human who have to deal with inhuman problems. Be careful what you wish for Jensen.
E
# E 2014-05-07 18:35
Quote:
I think Gadreel will die dishonorable and for nothing because he couldn't make up his mind about things and he often makes bad choices in his life as an Angel. He is the kind of character that is easy to fool. I mean instead of owning to his mistake for letting the demon enter the garden he insists that he is innocent and not at fault. I bet he also doesn't think he was wrong by killing Kevin and other angels. He wants redemption but the first path of redemption is by admitting his sin. Gadreel doesn't deserve redemption. The way he's screaming 'it's not my fault, I was used, I just follow order.
If you replace the name of Gadreel with Dean then you have the MoC story in a nutshell. I think Gadreel's story is being used to mirror Dean's. Until Dean is willing to face the consequences of his actions the MoC will continue to corrupt him. I find it interesting that Cain seemed remarkably uncorrupted by having the mark and the first blade in his possession, especially given what we've seen it doing to Dean. I think maybe the only way for Dean to get out from under the mark is to reject its influence by choosing a different path; it seems as though Cain was able to do it, and for quite a while. When Dean and Crowley found him he wasn't a raving lunatic creating violence everywhere he went. So, I wonder if Dean has some control over what is going on with him now? Unfortunately Dean can't see the affects that the mark is having on him. He's relishing his power too much and even when he's not directly influenced by the blade or mark he's not fighting its affects or even thinking about how what's happening to him could maybe be a bad thing. The "no" he spoke to Sam when he suggested that the hide the blade aways says loads about how far gone Dean is.
kaj
# kaj 2014-05-07 16:25
Sam : .... Because we're actually partners in this and we watch each other's back?

Hey, Sam, try the word brother. Now you see that Dean doesn't really care about being partners anymore. He just go alone. His partner is just nuisance to him at this point. And since you clearly state that you don't want to be brothers anymore don't think your opinion matter to Dean anymore because you know, you're just his partner.

Sam will not be able to save Dean if he still think of them as partners. Dean's heart has bleed too much since season 8, has scabbed and dried up and turned to rock. Sam has to reach Dean as brothers if he wants to save Dean from the dark.

Yes, Sam is right. Just because they are brothers, just because they're family doesn't mean they can forgive and forget that easily whenever one makes mistakes. Just because they're brother's it doesn't mean that Sam will forgive Dean that easily. Just because they're brothers it doesn't make it okay for Dean to let Sam get possessed. It's all true. BUT let's also not forget that they also save the world BECAUSE they're brothers. Sam can defeat Lucifer BECAUSE of their bond as brothers. There are good aspects and bad aspects in every relationship. Nobody's perfect even the Winchesters. As strong as Sam and Dean's bond is as brothers it doesn't mean that there are only good things that comes out of it, bad things happen too. Saving the world, preventing the apocalypse, killing Leviathan, Eve, those are the good things while Dean letting an Angel possess Sam, Sam trusting a Demon than his brother, those are the bad things.

There is always Yin and Yang in life. We will meet peace only if we can be at peace in balance.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-05-07 16:37
kaj, remind me please, where did Sam clearly state that he doesn't want to be brothers any more?
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-07 17:06
Sam's statement was left open to interpretation at the end of 9.10 Road Trip "... but if you want to be brothers...", but in 9.13 The Purge, I think the intentions of Sam's statement were made clear -

DEAN - Oh, about that we're not supposed to be brothers? No, don't flatter yourself. I don't break that easy.
SAM - Oh, good, 'cause I was just being honest.
kaj
# kaj 2014-05-07 17:15
njspnfan thank you! I was going to include that script but my internet connection died and i lost the link. Yes, that's what I mean. Taken from Dean's point of view, Sam only want to work the job as partners not as brothers. And Sam never clarify his statement to mean anything other that what Dean thought of it.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-05-07 21:30
but you have to look at the context in which sam made the statement in the first place. sam had just told dean that a trust was broken. they were damaged. he couldn't trust him anymore. dean's response to that was....we just have to get back to work as usual and put a few w's in the win column. so in essence, dean just told sam to sweep it all under the rug. as if sam could have done that even if he'd wanted to. sam's face after dean said that was one of anger and frustration. that's when he retorted back that if dean wants to be partners, then we'll be partners...but if he wants to be brothers.....th ose are my terms. sam tells dean they are damaged and dean just wants to go back to work as usual... sam wants to deal with everything and dean wants sam to just forget it all. in the purge, when sam asked dean if he hadn't slept because of what he said, there was hope in sam's expression, as though he'd succeeded in getting to his brother. that dean would want to talk...but instead , dean let his pride get in the way....he knew sam was trying to break him down....he said it....I don't break easy....so sam retorted in anger again.....well good because I was just being honest. sam opened the door for dean to confront him and dean slammed it in his face. the look on sam's face when dean walked away was a look of sadness. sam again tried and again dean blew him off.

dean has a very bad habit of only hearing what he wants to hear when it comes to sam instead of actually listening to what sam is saying. dean's own lack of self esteem play a part in that. sam told dean at the end of the purge, that same circumstances, reversed, sam would not do to dean what dean did to sam. sam would never go against dean's wishes or take his agency from him. we know this to be true because sam has demonstrated this in the past, both in s3 and again in s8. dean only heard that sam wouldn't save him. that's dean talking not sam. sam never said that or anything like that. but dean heard that and that has to do with his own lack of self esteem and his own self loathing. he wouldn't save him so why should sam? dean's misconception of his brother is not sam's fault. sam isn't to blame here. I hate to say it, but this time, it's on dean. dean has a remarkable gift of taking a situation in which he's done wrong, and making himself the actual victim. he accepted the moc because he couldn't face what he'd done to sam and he wanted to punish himself. in all honesty, even if sam had never made the comment about being partners, imho that dean still would react the same way. he knew he'd done wrong. he still would've accepted the moc. he still would've felt guilt for what he'd done...the lying, the trickery, kevin's death....and the blade would have made him act the same way regardless....b ecause power corrupts....let 's remember this ....dean left sam on that bridge before sam had a chance to even confront dean about anything....dea n was already feeling guilty...his actions and his personal guilt led him to accept the moc in the first place. he's the one who sought to punish himself....not sam. I guess I have to agree to disagree on this one.....but I don't think sam is to blame for anything. he has been trying to fix things with dean...he's been reaching out to him...he's never for a second given up....I can understand that you may not like the way sam is trying to fix things, but I actually love it. I love that sam can be just as stubborn as dean. I love that he won't stop trying even when dean wants to . I love that he's standing firm with dean, because he is actually pushing dean's buttons and in all honesty, it's the only way to deal with dean. had the blade not come into play, I think sam would've broken dean down....but then that conversation may not have had long lasting results. I mean sam has before opened up to dean about dean letting him grow up and trusting in him, in which dean says sam is right and for a ny minute dean treats sam like an equal ....but then dean quickly forgets and regresses. seems to me that carver is aware of this and thus has created a situation in which the best solution to solve this dilemma is to have the boys walk in ea. others shoes. it's the only way for both boys to finally understand where the other is coming from....it will strengthen their bond and bring them closer.... I look forward to this brotherly relationship... it's been 9 yrs in the making. ;)
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-05-07 18:40
You are probably right, but I will HATE it with the passion of a thousand burning nuns if that's how it plays out. Because it means Sam just gives Dean what he wants without Dean having to do a thing. Dean can have him possessed any time he wants and if Sam gets mad, well then Dean decides to behave badly and Sam will just have to snap to it to save the world from Dean. Sam has legitimate grievances here. They are being ignored by the writing and totally overlooked by the characters, but what Dean did was 100% WRONG, no questions asked. But Dean won't admit he was wrong and if the only way for Sam to stop him is to give up Sam's right to his own body and his own autonomy, then I will feel sick. Basically Dean has pretty well never been called out in canon for his mistakes, while Sam is still being punished five seasons later. I don't want Dean to skate on this one, but it's looking more and more like he will.

And now, I'm depressed.
kaj
# kaj 2014-05-08 01:40
:) Don't you think it's funny that this show can make us feel all sort of things including depression and euphoria. Sometimes, I sat back and ask my self. Why in the hell do I get so twist up over a TV show? It's a train wreck and we can't stop watching and agonizing. Perhaps we are all just a bunch of masochist. No, not we... I mean me. Perhaps I'm just a masochist to put up with this show for this long.

But on serious note, I think no one punish Dean better than Dean himself or maybe John if he's still alive. Facing the disappointment of his father is the worse thing for Dean. Dean will be willing to burn by a thousands burning suns if it could erase John's disappointment. But that was Dean before S3. Dean after Hell has practically blame himself for every bad things that happen. He blame himself for breaking in Hell, for not be able to save Sam from DB, for not be able to save Cas in S7, for Bobby's death, for seeing Sam suffer hallucination and can't do anything about it. He blames himself for not be able to take Cas with him out of purgatory when the actual truth is Cas doesn't want to be saved. He blame himself for the apocalypse for Chuck's sake.

Honestly, I'm out of idea how to make Dean pay for the travesty that he did by letting a psycho angel possessing Sam. And this is genuine curiosity on my part. What Dean should do to gain Sam's forgiveness? I think to Dean the worst thing is living without his brother, or anywhere really without his brother. Take Sam away from him then that's the worst punishment for Dean. That's why in Sharp Teeth he asks Sam to take him back, to ride in the car again working jobs together. Because he's physically unable and emotionally can't bear it to be without Sam. He'd take anything Sam dish out to him. Not be brother? work as partner only? Fine. You can't break me that easy Sam. Sam wouldn't do the same for Dean? (And yes Sam maybe doesn't mean what Dean thinks he means but still Dean concludes the worst) iFine as long as I can still see you Sam. If you want to break Dean, take Sam away from him.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-05-08 20:35
I will say I'm less interested in Dean paying for what he did than in him realizing what he did was wrong and not doing it (or overriding Sam's consent about anything again). I don't know how to shake Dean up enough to admit he was wrong, to admit that Sam has the right to make his own decisions even if they aren't what Dean wants. Sadly, Dean simply repeated the pattern in this episode by not telling Sam that Crowley had warned them it was a trap. He could have told Sam that he was afraid he would lose control of Sam was there. He could have told Sam that he's not sure he can keep himself from hurting Sam when he's using the Blade. Instead he let Sam go into the basement completely unaware that anything was up. This really isn't being protective of Sam. Crowley's use of Poughkeeppsie didn't say Abaddon is alone in the house with me. It simply warned Dean it was a trap. Abaddon could just as well have stashed her demon followers in every room to make sure that Sam and Dean were outnumbered. That would have had Sam walking into extreme danger completely oblivious to that fact. But Dean thought he knew what he was doing and he didn't want to give Sam a voice in the decision. So as of now, Dean is still in the mindset that Sam has no right to have a voice in how they proceed or what risks Sam is willing to take. I really don't know what will change that, but Sam telling Dean he's his brother with no conditions is not going to cut it.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-08 21:54
I think it was actually worse than that. I don't think Dean wanted Sam to get in his way because I think Dean already knows that to get what he wants he will go through anyone including Sam. That is why he told Sam he knew he couldn't be stopped. I think Dean is going to get to a point (if he isn't already there) where he won't care if he kills Sam if means getting the job done. It looks more and more like Dean is going to go Hell this time as a weapon for Crowley or as a ruler. Where does that leaves Sam? Maybe with a POV if he isn't dead.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-05-09 02:34
If they were desperate to give Dean a mytharc then they should of tailored one for the character not pilfered Sam's and then adapt it for Dean. I would like to think that they would realize that if you stop giving the 'mytharc' character that role that you would need to then explore other avenues for him which included a strong narrative and pov presence , However this season does not suggest that they willing to do that and if anything have downplayed Sam's possession and his feelings on it.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-09 05:01
I guess the point to Dean's mytharc is to show him what Sam has gone through first hand. I don't think it is about hijacking Sam's story as much as putting Dean into Sam's shoes. At some point I assume that Sam is going to be put into Dean's situation where he will have to make a Sophies Choice. At least that is my guess. As far as the angel possession and how Sam feels about it goes...well that ship is sailing into all will be forgiven land.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-05-08 13:14
Quote:
Hey, Sam, try the word brother.
Why?

also
Dean letting an Angel possess Sam=/=Sam trusting a Demon than his brother.
Bad things have magnitude.This magnitude should not be forgotten.
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2014-05-07 17:03
I better not say what I feel at the moment because I really loved this episode but somethings I have read are really, really making me down. Do I see the episode somehow differently? It seems so because all I have seen is people staying on Bloodlines bashing tour even if Supernatural, the story went forward. You know what the same people actually prayed and begged after last episode?

Is it so hard to say positive? "Oh hey! I love this series. Even if it is a bad episode maybe I can see even a tiny bit of positive on it and enjoy it actually as it should be enjoyed?" As I do that. Nothing is perfect and even I know that. The things that people have said I see really clear how they are put.

Castiel asking Sam about Gadreel = Sam: I DON'T like to talk about it. (Yes, the possession is clearly swept under the rug "sarcasm")
Castiel asks so Sam wants to help and answers. Sam answers - how it felt at the time - He was not talking PRESENT TIME.
Sam is not forgiving Gadreel and Cass knows it is tough to Sam. He asked it because who else he could have asked about Gad?
Sam talking/not talking/being concerned about Dean = (Yeah, it seems nothing is good. Too less Sam, Too much Dean, it will be never good)
Dean's own story arc! = Yeah, that sucks! More Sam please! "sarcasm"

Dean's remark about Crowley's son? I saw it as statement and not that Dean had forgotten he had a son.

Abaddon not fleeing? She didn't seem to be a demon that would cowardly escape. I think she thought she could win? And even I think she wouldn't have been fast enough if she would have tried to escape and let Dean loose. She needed all her effort to keep him in line.

Anyway, venting on. I am just disappointed. Not to episode but well. I hope some enjoy the episode when you watch it again. Even I did as I was in a hurry at my first view and I liked it even more. This is also not directed to anyone in general as I can handle both positive and negative opinions. It depends always by reasoning, examples and how you give your opinion out.

I think on this episode I have read every part of it attacked between heaven and earth. Even if I say it was clear to me I know it is my own opinion. I think I will also join those that read only the reviews in all places even if I would like to join the conversation.

Anyway peace and hopefully next episode is better who didn't like this and those who liked it. Hopefully next you will too.

- Lilah

PS: The silly almost tortured angel was the one thing felt little off and didn't like in this episode. Can't explain why though. Gut feeling? :P
No need to answer this post btw. Let the speculation commence.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-07 17:23
Lilah don't let anyone else's opinion affect how you feel about anything. Some here had issues with this episode and I am one of them but I have read many reviews on other sites that loved this episode. I love the show. I will watch and support it to the end. I watch for the brothers relationship. There wasn't a lot of that here (or in the last few episodes). I am hoping for more in the last 2 episodes.
We complain because we care.
Puck
# Puck 2014-05-07 19:33
"Amen Padaleski."
Puck
# Puck 2014-05-07 19:26
Ooooh! I thought it was awesome comeback from the travesty that was last week. Parts of it were overblown (including Jensen's hair), but it was pretty cool. It almost (ALMOST) made me redeem the writing duo for "Man's Best Friend with Benefits" but not quite. You're right about many things including the angel getting interrogated. There was something off about it like maybe it was a trap or maybe he was just stupid. But J2 played it so golden I didn't care! You're always so positive. Thanks!
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-05-07 21:47
I don't know about that. I really liked this episode a lot but I still don't trust these two writers and I don't know if redemption for MBFWB is possible. I'm going to forever give them the side-eye for that. That's just how much I hated that episode. There have been ,in nine years, very few episodes that I've actually hated ( maybe about 4 or 5 and hey ! It still has a couple of interesting parts in it) but I really disliked it.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-07 21:53
Well there was the cute Stooges argument in the beginning and Jared and the dog were sweet until it turned into....well you know.;)
Puck
# Puck 2014-05-08 19:09
Yeah, how are these guys still employed? For all the "meh" to "grr" episodes made THESE TWO are usually the culprits! This, "Blade Runners" and "Taxi Driver" are the only ones I like the rest "grrrrrrrrrrrrr rrr." And yes I know I'm in the minority for TD, but I'm a sucker for Bobby Singer, wicked cool graffiti and Dean's friendship with Benny. Again I know I'm probably in the minority but there were more episodes of season five I didn't like than any other season even though "Changing Channels" is my absolute favorite!
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-05-08 11:57
Lilah_Kane, I know you said that there’s no need to reply to your comment but considering that you mainly referenced points made by me, I hope you don’t mind if I do.

No, it’s not hard to stay positive. There was positive in my comment. There was positive in many comments. Was it all positive? No. I’m not sure why you decided to focus on the not positive instead of the positive, especially if that is what seemingly brings you down. However, people are not always going to think and react uniformly. What might be good for you, might not be good for others. What might be a positive for you might not be a positive for others. What you might enjoy, others might not. That’s the nature of discussion.

I’m not going to address the acknowledged sarcasm (sarcasm often brings people ‘down’, btw), however, do I think the possession storyline is over? Yes, I do. The reasons are that (a) the show has a storied history with it, especially as it relates to Sam, and (b) too much time has now passed, and too much not related to it has happened, from the time of the initial act until now to be able to successfully bring it up again.

When Sam got back from hell, he was soulless, no need to deal with it. By the time he got his soul back there was a wall put up in his head, no need to deal with it. When the wall came down he was fine for the most part, until Castiel took the crazy from him and he was fine. That’s not dealing with it, that’s shoving it down the river until such time as it’s too far in the distance to deal with. The same has happened this season. Sam was possessed, generally seen to be an absolutely heinous thing to happen to a person. Instead of putting any focus on that, the sympathetic focus went on Dean. Sam was lied to constantly, thought he was losing his mind, the sympathetic focus went on Dean. Sam cast Gadreel out and almost immediately Dean was looking to absolve himself in what he did by evoking sympathy for himself "I didn't have a choice" "I'm poison" etc. That Dean even had him possessed was then lost in the light of Sam’s oh so horrible words “I wouldn’t do the same to you” and the sympathetic focus, once again, went on Dean. Castiel told him he only did what he did because he cared too much, there were no words of disapproval. Kevin came back and told them to get over it. Dean put it on Gadreel and now possession isn’t seen as sharing a house. The act of what Dean did has been trivialised because the impact has been trivialised. Now we are mid the Mark of Cain storyline, the initial act itself is almost a season past and its impact has been minimal. Really, the only person who has been affected by Dean’s actions is Sam and for him to bring it up again would make him look petty and selfish. Good grief, it might drive Dean into a relapse and then where would we be??

Second to that, actions get more weight depending on others reaction to them. The fact that Sam ‘chose’ a demon over Dean was (and even now still is) given huge weight because of how Dean reacted to it, to such an extent that the why of the act itself is almost forgotten. Not only did Sam ask Dean to go with them (Dean said no), but Sam went with Ruby to try and stop Lucifer from rising, not for some trivial reason. The reasons why were as important as the act itself, but those have been deemed irrelevant under the weight of Dean’s continued judgment and feelings of betrayal about the act.

We had the same in season 8. Had Dean (or even Bobby), at any stage said ‘Look, I get why you did it’ etc, then what happened would never have been criticised to the extremes that it was. Instead, we got half a season of Dean’s continuous judgment and condemnation, and even at the end of the season it was still be brought up as part of Sam’s greatest ‘sins’. However, last season, the acts that Dean was so critical of, he himself also did. He knew Castiel was in Purgatory and made no attempts to get him out; nothing was made of it (Good God, it was turned into something that made Dean uber noble!). He erroneously believed someone was dead and so prevented their rescue; nothing was made of it. Dean’s reaction to Sam doing the same thing led to a season of criticism. To put it in short, thus far, light is always made of Dean’s actions so the consequences of his actions are irrelevant and the opposite is true for Sam. That is a pattern that started back in season 4 and continues today.

I don’t know what you mean by ‘Yeah. It seems nothing is good’. It could very easily be ‘good’. What would make it 'good' would be balance. Not too less Dean, not too much Sam or vice versa, but balance ie equal time and consideration given to both characters, not an overabundance of exposition to one and little to none to the other. There are two characters on the show, not one character and his plot-point. The show possibly remembering that would make it 'good'.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-05-08 13:13
seconded
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-05-08 20:38
Thirded!
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-05-08 20:59
Fouthed!
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-09 10:09
Fifthed!
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2014-05-09 13:41
I dared to come read the comments because of Cheryl. I feared I was too harsh or too annoyed. And Tim, if it seemed to be you I was referring to that was not intended. Mostly it was what I had read around on other sites. The trouble was that at the start I actually read only negative things from different sites. And when I had really liked the episode. (I really wasn't a fan of the Bloodlines one) The things people were saying hit me pretty hard. I guess my real life influenced my mood so it got me down more than usual.

Hmm, maybe I will try to explain my viewpoint and not others. We talk a lot about these in chat box in WFB. Aaaanyway, I have watched the series through in short period of time. Season 9 is actually the first one I need to wait episodes. (In my country we are almost half way of season 7) I love stories, different kinds and horror. Movies and series I watch like a baby eating a lollipop. Half of the time I don't know who the producers, directors, writers are on the series/movies I have loved/liked or even the actors. It is the story that I watch that pulls me in and I don't care about the rest. It might save me from judging episodes as some do because they know the mentioned things.

I have also written fan fiction on some that I have watched but I always think the real one is way better than what I dribble. With Supernatural, I see always that Sam and Dean are balanced because even if they don't anvil the stuff on our heads with words or how they act it is the presence that they give together. They are most of the time always together and this season they have lifted other characters to the family. We learn more about them. Supernatural needs more than Sam and Dean to work. That is why people hate/and love the other characters. I am not saying Supernatural that has only Sam and Dean would be boring but what would it be without the monsters and other characters? The boys need something to interact with.

This episode had comedy and brothers working together. The last fight I saw refreshing because it showed what power Dean actually has! It was like damn! In my eyes the fight was refreshing. Why? Because it was simple. Abaddon underestimated Dean and I really think she thought she would win. If others are like me. We are used to the epic fist fights and ninja stuff. Those have been done like... Gazillion times I think so this was actually something different. And I still flinch if man beats a woman... Can't help it.

And I also see that people see different things on what happened. This part I actually wish I hadn't read what I did. Because I really don't focus on canon things and remember what has done/how it should be. Sometimes I feel it is an inside joke I don't get... but this view also and that my focus is what actually happens in the episode... Helps me really enjoy it even with its faults? But there is a difference That was shown in Bloodlines. For example the shape shifters not changing their skin to change? That was a no in my eyes. (The real thing is so disgusting but so AWESOME!) But to me it needs to be as clear as a hit on the eye.

I know the series has faults. Nothing is perfect. I am just happy from my side that I watch it as I watch. And keep watching it like that. :)

Anyway, just wanting to say sorry if I vented before too much. A lot has happened after it and I guess for a moment I felt I was alone for liking the episode. I guess that is pretty silly. I know that people watch the series differently. Just wished I could toss my positivism around. Even though even I lost it this week for a moment.

Oh! And I realized what irked me on the interrogated angel. Because I have no idea what he was. Decoy? A fool? Telling the truth or what? Anyway, it was weird.

Can't wait for next episode!

- Lilah
E
# E 2014-05-09 14:50
Sixthed!!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-09 15:18
This isn't a reply to E just I noticed that many of you were supporting Tim's post. It would be nice if you all made it clear that your support wasn't directed at Lilah. She like SweetonDean is having a hard time with the negativity in the fandom and if you checkout cbox she goes on about all the crap happening in her personal life. And her second post explains that she in no way directed her post at Tim. Anyway just wanted to defend her a little. Having had many conversations with her she really is very sweet. She is just guilty of loving the show.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-10 16:27
absolutely; I'm happy that Lilah enjoyed the episode, and other people's reactions to this episode should not affect Lilah's enjoyment of the episode or show. I just happened to agree with Tim the Enchanter's assessment and in no way meant to "pile on".
Gwen
# Gwen 2014-05-09 17:47
Seventhed!

ETA - Just saw your post, Cheryl, so I just wanted to add that my post is purely supporting Tim's post regarding Sam's possession storyline and the sympathetic POV for Dean. And also massive agreement to their comment "There are two characters on the show, not one character and his plot-point."
I really hope Lilah doesn't take my post as being against her. I lurk here daily and I enjoy reading Lilah Kane's posts, they are so full of positivity and love for Show. Please keep posting the SPN love, Lilah. Reading your posts helps drag me out of the black hole I am in regarding SPN this year.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-09 19:33
Thanks :)
By the way I very much agree with Tim's sentiment.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-05-10 01:57
Quote:
ETA - Just saw your post, Cheryl, so I just wanted to add that my post is purely supporting Tim's post regarding Sam's possession storyline and the sympathetic POV for Dean. And also massive agreement to their comment "There are two characters on the show, not one character and his plot-point."
I really hope Lilah doesn't take my post as being against her. I lurk here daily and I enjoy reading Lilah Kane's posts, they are so full of positivity and love for Show. Please keep posting the SPN love, Lilah. Reading your posts helps drag me out of the black hole I am in regarding SPN this year.
Agree to every word
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2014-05-10 03:18
Thanks Gwen and all. I am glad if my posts have helped. I have few bumps on the road though "Bloodlines, cough" like all have. And even if what they show about the brothers is enough for me I hope for the others that they get more also what Tim is telling. What happened to Sam was pretty bad and he needs to get some "revenge" from what happened to him. I hope they do that, but that is why I am waiting where they will go with all of this. If it doesn't happen even I am little bit bummed about that.

Gad needs to be punished. (Some other way than killing hiiiiiim!) because I really hope he stays on the show. I know that is probably wishful thinking on my part. I mostly blame Metatron for corrupting Gad. Before that like Sam said he didn't feel threatened. (What he remembered about Gad.) That doesn't mean that Sam says the possession was not wrong. We will see how all goes. :)

I love very much how the guys interact in the series. Reminds me about me and my older brother. It is harder when you are a sister... Trust me. :)
But as Misha is series regular in season 10 and the past seasons I see him also as one of the brothers. You don't need to be blood to be family. And Have I said how cute it is when Dean refers Cass as a child? Because he still has his innocence (even what he has done) It shines from his character. And Dean has been a brother/father figure also to him. So, eagerly waiting what the winged friend is up to next season.

Also, I have the tradition to share links in the chat box so I think I have a good video for you all if you are feeling down.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sOKGfa-1l4[/video]

- Lilah
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-10 09:40
Thanks Lilah I needed a hug.
Rick D
# Rick D 2014-05-09 23:13
"There are two characters on the show, not one character and his plot-point. " LOL! Oh Tim, you silly. You are thinking of the Olden Kripke Times. The Carver administration doesn't go for that hunting brothers stuff, "the Family Business," this show is now about Dean, and his angel buddies.

That's why I'm all the more convinced that Gadzooks will be redeemed- because his story is so similar to Castiel's. How much of the first half of season was Dean & Gads hanging out, chatting about things and getting important stuff done? Just had to knock out Sam to do it. Then Gads betrays Dean, but just the one time- far fewer than Cass. And we've learned that Gads is just misunderstood, and lacks intervening Hand Of Dean to show him The Way, like Cas got. I'm sure that once Dean tells Gadz about What He Must Do According to Dean- he will turn around and fly right, and be another important friend of Dean's.

Then Jared will have even more time next season to take trips to Austin.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-05-10 01:54
Quote:
"There are two characters on the show, not one character and his plot-point. " LOL! Oh Tim, you silly. You are thinking of the Olden Kripke Times. The Carver administration doesn't go for that hunting brothers stuff, "the Family Business," this show is now about Dean, and his angel buddies.

That's why I'm all the more convinced that Gadzooks will be redeemed- because his story is so similar to Castiel's. How much of the first half of season was Dean & Gads hanging out, chatting about things and getting important stuff done? Just had to knock out Sam to do it. Then Gads betrays Dean, but just the one time- far fewer than Cass. And we've learned that Gads is just misunderstood, and lacks intervening Hand Of Dean to show him The Way, like Cas got. I'm sure that once Dean tells Gadz about What He Must Do According to Dean- he will turn around and fly right, and be another important friend of Dean's.

Then Jared will have even more time next season to take trips to Austin.
Perfect
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-05-10 03:39
I know some are finding positivity in the story being told but to turn what was done to Sam into a misery feast for Dean left me cold. Sam's hurt was used to bounce Dean right into the MOC and focus on that while Sam got 10 mins to tell us how he felt in a bunker with Castiel . I just think they went to a point with the possession and it was not Sam's best interests they were thinking of.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-05-10 11:42
i too agree with this post. i guess i can find the positive in it though. as you stated tim, the focus has always shifted to dean's pov and we were always nudged to feel sympathy for dean. I've seen posts through the years in which dean always seemed more favored, as he is the protector and one that only thought of others first. for a lot of people, sam felt slighted against. I myself have never felt sam to be any less of a hunter or hero than his brother. i always found sam to be more symapathetic, empathetic, flawed, yet quite admirable and heroic. when i look at sam Winchester i see someone who does think of others before himself. dean may have stayed in the life for his father, but sam seeking safe and normal? was that really just for him? he responded to dean in the pilot....do you think this is what mom would've wanted for us? i have always thought sam to have been considering his mother's wishes as well as his own. the fact that john never knew what mary was tells me that sam is right, that she just wanted to be a normal family who took no part in hunting and the danger and misery that came with it.
yet when dean came into sam's apartment all these years ago asking him to come with him because he didn't want to do it alone, sam went. sam, since show began, has a history of sacrificing for his brother. i always found that trait in sam to be just as heroic and admirable as dean's trait of protecting sam has been. both boys are flawed. neither one of them are perfect. both have a darkness within that they have had to face. both have lied to ea other and hurt ea other. i'm not blind to any of that on either brother's part. i will admit that there are a couple of flaws in dean that frustrate me more than i'd care to admit. for one, dean's hypocrisy. his do as i say and not as i do mentality has gone to extremes at times and sam has felt the brunt of it. dean spent s2 suffering from torment in knowing that his father brought him back and went to hell for it. he has told sam what's dead should stay dead. he shouldn't be here. look what's become of it. how could dad do this? and yet dean did the same to his brother, his response to sam when sam told him he remembered what it had done to dean and now he was doing it to him..".after all he'd done for this family he earned it". dean gives amy this speech about how she will kill again because it's what she is and then kills her. he lies to sam about it and then when sam is rightfully upset, dean gets all righteous and tells sam not to be bitch. dean takes a monster out of purgatory and lies to sam about it and then justifies what he's done by telling sam benny is more of a brother than he has ever been. sam gets flack for simply tailing benny making sure he's not killing anyone, which is more than dean ever did for amy. he just killed her. why had he not watched her? then if she even made an attempt to hurt anyone, then kill her before she did it? sam did. was it that difficult a task? still sam told dean what he'd done and gave dean the opportunity to find out for sure. sam still put his trust in his brother. as we know from the deleted scene in taxi driver, benny did end up killing humans. even though the audience didn't get to see that onscreen, we still know the truth...and while it may be seen as dean being right and sam being wrong, ....i saw it quite differently. i see sam as the one who in this instance was in the right. it made me admire sam all the more for it.
i have found that over the years sam has not only made mistakes, but he's learned from them. his journey has not been easy. sam has suffered greatly, but ea and every time, sam has not only survived, but he has flourished. sam always reminds me of the single flower that has reared it's head and still blooms amidst land that has been rought by destruction.
dean on the other hand has not yet learned from his mistakes. he keeps making the same ones again and again and over the years it has grown weary for me. i tire at dean's hypocrisy. I'm losing interest in his deancentric attitude. While it may seem that dean is all about saving others, i have found over the years that this not entirely the case. dean does save people yes. but he doesn't only save people for them, he does it for him. now please let me explain where my deancentric interest has faded. i understand that dean does good for the sake of others. i am not taking that from hi, but i am also very well aware that when dean saves another, he also does it for himself. he feeds his need to be the hero. we all do good for others because in essence we feel good ourselves. there is no such thing as an unselfish deed. this does not take away from dean actually being a hero. this is where i tire from his deancentric outlook.....his belief that his outlook is the only one. dean has said often that he does what he thinks is best. he's doing what's right. the point here is...that he does what he does, he goes to these extremes based on how he views what should be. he's not only done this with sam. he did it with lisa and ben. dean had cas wipe away their memories. he took their agency away from them. dean had no right to do that to another. he had no claim on what lisa and ben were allowed to feel or remember. dean has a habit of playing God at times. more times than not actually. and yet dean is meant to be looked upon in a sympathetic manner. but over the years, especially recently, i'm not so sure that is what carver actually does want.
i don't know about you guys, but ever since carver came back, I've actually had less sympathy for dean. i didn't even like dean in the first half of s8. funny, as i write this now i realize that the first half of s8 is when i actually focused on what it is that has been bothering me regarding dean. it's bugged me all the while, but since s8 it is bothering me in Technicolor. :) the first half of s8 has focused on the things that have bugged me regarding dean's character the most, his hypocrisy and his deancentric outlook. i don't know if it bothered any of you, but the whole benny/dean thing vs amy/sam screamed hypocrite through my tv screen and into my ears. i found myself upon rewatches fast forwarding over most benny/dean stuff. and dean's centric outlook was predominant amongst everything else. his misguided views/beliefs that sam left him in purgatory and the one where he believed he left cas. dean's hypocrisy in regards to sam taking a year off, telling him that people died. i'm rewatching s6 and guess what...dean took a year off from hunting and you know what happened while dean was playing house with lisa and ben? people died. i can't tell you how much i wanted to punch dean in the nose every single time he dug at sam. don't even get me started on his lying to sam, purposely keeping sam from benny so that sam could judge for himself whether or not benny could be trusted, his little rant in sc which apparently has dean not forgiving sam for any of his past mistakes as we were led to believe he had and that chuck awful text. dean hit a new low for me. but the second half came and i began to see things in a different light. i understood that dean's misconceptions come from his own self loathing and past discrepancies i had come to the conclusion that he deflects onto sam what he feels for himself. it's a flaw dean has that i wish he didn't. but its' a flaw that i now believe carver is working on dealing with. that's where i believe we are headed right now.
the only character not to have learned from past mistakes is dean. cas has. sam certainly has. both sam and cas have changed, matured over the years. their perspectives have changed. they learned what not to do. cas is a kindred spirit to sam and he's admitted as such in first born. cas may consider dean his favorite as they do share a profound bond, but cas and sam are much more alike. there is an understanding between them that is theirs alone. it has made their friendship a stronger one. :)
dean, on the other hand, seems to be last in line when it comes to learning from one's mistakes. now, thankfully, i think we are finally there. but still i know for some, as well as for myself, this lesson is strewn in with what i think has made some of us feel so weary. i dare not speak for others, but for me personally, it's been dean's deancentric view of how all things should be according to him. i admit to feeling no sympathy for dean's plight. he again took it upon himself to make decisions that weren't truly his to make. he did the one thing to his brother that sam would rather die than have done to him. he lied and tricked his brother. and no matter how much it may look like show is trying to undermine sam's possession issue, i don't' think it is or ever truly can. there's too much in sam's history with possession that can would allow for the fans to ever forget what a nightmare it's been for sam and why he can't even fathom it ever happening to him again. for most of us i think i can safely assume that we all know that what dean did to sam was wrong for so many reasons. though show may not ever go into great detail regarding sam's possession, i think we all have a basic understanding of what it has done to sam.
i must say that from a samgirl viewpoint, i am loving this season. let me say why. please understand that although i have not liked dean for the first half of s8 and i have grown a bit weary of his self centered views and his penchant for throwing himself pity parties, overall i do like dean Winchester. i do see him as a hero. i know he loves his brother more than he loves himself. dont' get me wrong. there are more good qualities in dean that i admire than bad qualities that i don't. but i do feel that all these years later, dean's character has remained a stagnant one. i feel that cas and sam have proceeded to the next grade, while dean has gotten left back. i have actually found, these last couple of seasons, since carver took the reigns, sam to be shown as admirable and of the greatest strength in character. i have found sam's character these last two seasons to shine more than he's ever had the chance to shine before. he's always shone brightly in my eyes, but it's been more subtle and more in the background because the focus was put on dean. carver too is putting the focus dean, but not in the usual positive light. i feel as though these last two seasons, dean's flaws, the ones that have bothered me the most, the ones that i always wished they would work on, are now the focus. they have been problematic over the years and now they are being dealt with head on. now let me explain this in a way that won't get my head served on a plate...bloody. this makes me happy. i know at the moment it seems that i'm not on team dean. and for the reason's I've explained above, it's true....I've had enough of the world being viewed as dean thinks it should be. i admit to being less sympathetic towards dean. my reasons for the excitement of dark dean might not be the same as most. i see a dark dean as a way for sam to shine. as i said, sam has always shone for me, but now, sam is lighting up the world. I've seen more posts from different voices view sam in a more positive manner this season. more so it seems than I've noticed before. it just seems to me that by bringing dean's flaws to focus, carver has finally achieved a balance for both boys in the way they are viewed. although he's brought a temporary negativity to dean, he's also brought a positivity to sam . i have no doubt that carver has done this with intention.. to remind us all that both brothers are equal in the eyes of the writers and hopefully the fandom.
while i may temporarily be beleaguered by dean Winchester, i can see that all changing very soon. as the season comes to it's conclusion, it has given me time to pause and really focus on what carver is truly trying to accomplish here. i can see where we will end up in regards to both boys. while it's been a bumpy ride, it's also been an exciting one. not only that, but for me it has been a satisfying one...maybe it's just me, but i see where carver is headed with our boys. i see the relationship he's longing to create between them and i understand what had to be done to finally get us there. i have no doubt that i will view dean again with new eyes and my love for dean will be reborn...you gotta pound out the lumps to get a nice smooth gravy. i see that finally, dean Winchester is being the same chance to grow and mature and learn as sam and cas have been given. what i am most appreciative about, as a girl who forever will hold sam Winchester close to her heart, is that carver has finally allowed for sam to been seen as the true hero he is. i for one see sam as the most admirable of all characters ever to grace my tv set....and mostly i regard sam with such great esteem for his strength of character, something that sam has always had but never has been brought to the forefront as carver has done these last two seasons. i hope that nobody feels that the only way to have done this is to make dean look less favorable. i don't think that at all. but i think carver is very wise. he may have shown dean in a seemingly less than favorable light where his flaws have been front and center, but this is so very much a good thing....carver is finally allowing dean to graduate and move to the next level. he is finally able to not only make a big mistake, but actually learn from it. to enable in him change and to allow dean to focus on his true issues. what truly drives dean to make such decisions? why doesn't love himself the way sam loves him? i think both dean and sam will finally understand not only ea. other, but themselves...an d luck they will learn to love and appreciate who they are and this will strengthen their bond/relationsh ip for hopefully seasons to come. :)
E
# E 2014-05-07 17:30
Quote:
We know that Abadon can travel through time because she followed Henry. As far as I know demons still have souls they are just twisted. But this time what blood did she use?

A few people have asked this question… doesn't anyone remember? Abbadon shot Crowley, so blood galore, as much as she wanted. That, along with either the power of poor old Josie's soul or one of the dozens she's got locked up in jars would be more than enough for her to time travel. I can see the logic here, but I do agree that the episode did not do a very good job of connecting the dots. All they had to do was have one short shot of Abbadon managing Crowley's wound and then her walking off with her blood soaked hand to get the point across.
kaj
# kaj 2014-05-07 17:47
I think that's the whole point. There's a hidden intention for not explaining many things in spn because by making it as vague and ambiguous as possible will open the opportunity to use it again and twist it again later. Remember the rogue reapers? And we also don't really know where monsters go when they die in purgatory. Why there's suddenly a backdoor to hell in purgatory... We don't really know the mechanism of how Cain become a demon. Did he die first and went to hell? or he becomes a demon while still alive? Nothing is clear and we can only speculate.
Puck
# Puck 2014-05-07 18:20
Summary:
3. I wish they'd made more out of her than the warring angel factions. She was so delightfully demonic in ways I had to admit that even Meg couldn't pull off.
5. It's a total mirror, and I think we were meant to think so.
6. That was the most hilarious thing they've done in so long we rewinded it twice! :D
7. Ditto.
9. That talk isn't over.
10. Cas in Charge is awesome this time.
11. Absolutely.

Thoughts:
2. I'm glad something good came of Cas being a human....
3. I really dig the parallel. It'll (eventually) be good for both of them to see each other in a new light.
4. It's inevitable Dean will make an even bigger change, but I don't think Sam is ready to give Dean up any more than Dean was ready to give him up. If we're running the entire back half of this season on the parallels to season 4 then we know how it ended: "You're too late." "I don't care!"

For better or worse, I thought this episode was hilarious. The interrogation alone was priceless. I'm sure it could be a ruse, but the played that angel so well it was like watching Sam'n'Dean at full gear--season one style. Then Crowley/Gavin was funny. Then Dean/Abbadon was funny for all the wrong reasons. Seriously? Dean has force powers now? Why didn't he just Jedi Mind Trick them then. Sheesh. And Abbadon in the air like that was silly. Dean pushing past her was pretty awesome though up until Sam (and I) freaked out over the extra stabs.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-05-07 18:20
Just watched the episode again and saw it in a slightly more favorable light. Don't want to be a downer and rehash my issues with the episode; it's just that they're cramming a lot of mytharc in the last 3 episodes and I expected better - they owed us that much after Bloodlines ;)
E
# E 2014-05-07 19:02
I am beginning to wonder if some of the problems we saw in this episode (cheesiness) can be attributed to the direction? I believe that P.J. Pesce is a first time Supernatural director? He has some pretty good directing credits on his resume going back several years, but this is his first for Supernatural, and maybe he just doesn't have the feel of the show quite yet? For me the nuts and bolts of the episode were OK, but there was a kind of comedic, slapstick like mood over everything. Like in the interrogation scene, in the War Room scene with Cas, and much of the stuff with Gavin came off like everyone was playing the scenes for laughs, which is distinctly un-Superaturall ike. Also the extended back and forth in the Abbadon Death scene was gratuitous in a way that Supernatural rarely is; it's almost like the show wasn't taking it's own world seriously. I am going to chalk some of the slightly strange feel of this episode to a new director.
Thisoldbag
# Thisoldbag 2014-05-07 19:14
Color me suspicious
I take no stock in the whole "Mesopotamia" line last season as it was on many maps in the 1960's. But Crowley the human who, as a human, was a real prick to his son would suddenly feel fatherly towards him just because he found a bit of his old humanity? Hmmm...
His son didn't recognize him so he could still be not what we expect. Crowley is out for Crowley so he has a plan and poor Gavin may have become a part of it.
I may be giving TPTB too much credit as I have seen patterns before that never materialized, I just don't see Crowley as being anything but a great manipulator. Maybe he really wants a butterfly flitting thru time. Maybe the butterfly will come back and bite him in the ass.
I'd like to thank Tim for some bust the gut comments earlier, they were actually more entertaining than the episode itself. I am happy one of the players is gone and I loved the brothers interrogation technique, and I am still hoping for good deaths from Gadreel and Metatron ( good being awful). Sam has had a multitude of opportunities since season 7 to call his brother out on the lies and crap, he hasn't yet and I've pretty much lost hope he ever will, but Man, I'd love to see it.
I am still looking forward to these next 2 episodes, and hoping there'll be something totally unpredictable about it. "Who's conning who" is the question now.
I stay away from series end predictions but what I'd really like to see in the end is the brothers ending up being the ones who do the conning. Wouldn't that be a surprise?
snoopy-1310
# snoopy-1310 2014-05-07 22:53
Welll both Sam and Dean have lied to each other. Lets not pretend Sam is any better than Dean in this area.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-05-08 00:50
Sam has been pretty honest since season four. For all of Dean's "You didn't tell me you lost your soul" Sam didn't know he had lost it until Cas told them both. Yes, Sam has been less than candid about his health. In season seven he with held his hallucinations for less than 24 hours. He also hid the effects of the trials on him. Personally when I have a migraine and someone asks me how I'm doing, I say fine, so shoot me. Sam has not lied about things unrelated to his own health that I recall. Dean lied to Sam about Sam's health and Gadreel's possession. Dean had Sam walk into this last trap without telling Sam that Crowley had warned them it was a trap, which is pretty material to Sam knowing what he was walking into and staying alive. Dean lied to Sam when he sent a text in Amelia's name. Dean lied about killing Amy. All of those were big lies that involved Sam, not Dean's health or anything personal to Dean. Sam told Dean that he didn't look for him and why, he could have lied his ass off and told Dean he looked and couldn't find anything. Sam isn't perfect, but he has worked hard to not lie to Dean about things that affect Dean. Dean has not been as forthcoming. Heck he lied about Garth to try and get rid of Sam. Even in season four, Sam didn't lie about seeing Ruby, he lied about the demon blood and he lied about his powers at first. When it backfired so spectacularly, he pretty well stopped lying.

No, I'm not saying Sam is or was perfect. I'm saying he's working on being better. Dean isn't even making that attempt.
kaj
# kaj 2014-05-08 02:40
Well, Dean's arch up till the end of S6 is getting betrayed and lied to by the people close to him. First Sam in S4 then two years later Cas in S6 now two years later (or three) he's the one who do the lying. The table will probably goes like this :

Lying point Time taken for redemption Getting lied to
Sam 1 - S4 S5 1
Cas 1 - S6 End half of S7 ?
Dean 1 - S9 Not Yet 2

So, it's not like Dean isn't making that attempt. Probably not yet. We're still watching S9 now and it's still going and the wound is still fresh. Sam's DB story take a whole season to blow up and another season to make a redemption arch for Sam. Patients grasshopper...
From the table above, the logical progression will be making S10 as a redemption arch for Dean. The question is will it be?

On a lighter note. Dean getting betrayed twice but he only lie once. :P To make it even he must lie once more, perhaps to Cas just to make it even. So, you know, then I can complete my table. hahaha... :D
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-05-08 02:47
I expect Dean's dark arch to go into season 10 whether we have another Dean centric season with a redemption arch added onto who knows. I do not really feel that Sam's possession will be high on the agenda as that boat seems to of sailed where Dean is concerned not that he remotely thought he did anything wrong to begin with . The writers have played a clever game in how they handled the sl .
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2014-05-08 10:31
It's funny ( and incredibly sad and irritating) that the writers have finally decided to do a role reversal and have the supernatural bad stuff happen to Dean while Sam has had to stand by and worry, and yet the show still focuses on how Dean feels. In season's 4 and 5, Sam's DB storyline was mostly about how Dean reacted and felt about the whole thing with a couple of moments (comparatively) given to Sam's inner workings. Whereas, not only is the storyline Dean's, but pretty much most of the focus is on what it's doing to him and, as Tim put it, his epic manpain. Seriously, it's almost a joke. I really used to love Dean, but this "woe is me" stuff is getting seriously old. I hope for our and Jensen's sake, that they somehow manage to get playful, snarky, fun Dean back before the show finally ends for good. And I'm with whoever stated above that I really want Sam to have one in the "win" column for once.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-05-08 11:40
You know from some of Jensen's comments at recent Con's I think he wants fun, snarky Dean back as well. I could be wrong but he did say someone needed to open a window.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-05-08 13:08
Quote:
I do not really feel that Sam's possession will be high on the agenda as that boat seems to of sailed
I think it is not an agenda.Sam's possession..who?what?when?
Cas wants information but does not show an ounce of empathy or sympathy.Wow way to show friendship.
Frankly I liked bloodlines better than this episode.As far as Dean goes any sympathy i had has long since evaporated .I saw some promo and the consideration Sam gives to Dean's opinions and the appeal he does to Dean in them are utterly undeserved.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-05-08 13:14
Sam's possession was just a plot point to kick start Dean's MOC sl or is it now like 'shared housing' rather than true possession , sounds less intrusive does it not 'shared housing' .Not something to see as a violation.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-05-08 13:17
what i don't understand is Demon's too allow for shared housing .You know aside from that occasional killing .what now this is going to make Gadreel the new poor baby angel.Yeah if so i will be sick.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-05-11 12:38
Quote:
Cas 1 - S6 End half of S7 ?
I do not agree .Cas ----s04 ,in s05 swept under the rug and the "credit" for starting apocalypse goes to Sam.
s06 ...sam has still not got a confession and a apology (including s04)
yay my 1001st comment
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-05-08 14:53
Tim. I totally agree. I can't tell you how frustrating that is, especially for a Sam girl, who just happens to be dean curious. The focus has been so placed on SAMs comment about being partners, most have seem to have forgotten why Sam said it in the first place.........t he why in this case is more important than the what. Hoping once carver finally deals with the boys issues, there will be more of an equal balance in how the boys are written.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2014-05-08 19:44
you can send me an email guys. yes thru WFB.

just what is CROWLEY....

everyone says he is not a demon but what is he.....
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-05-08 21:05
Fourthed!