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You voted, you told us how you felt, and now after plenty of science (fine, just a clever app), we have results!  Announcing, the WFB Supernatural Season Ten Fan Choice Award results!  Did your favorites win, place, or show? Time of find out. 


What was the Best Supernatural Season 10 episode?

Winner

es 11

“The Executioner’s Song” – 24%

Runners Up

“Fan Fiction” – 20%

01

“The Werther Project” – 19%

s10e19 559 Bros with codex

Other Nominees 

“Brother’s Keeper” – 16%

“Inside Man” – 11%

“Reichenbach” – 8%

“Ask Jeeves” – 2%

Usually in prior years, the season closer always takes this award.  Not this year!  It just goes to show, season ten had a little something for everyone.  


Editor’s Choice

“Inside Man”

IM 17

Although for me, “Book of the Damned” comes pretty close too.  Both of those episodes had some really incredible dialogue that makes me feel warm at night!  While I did love “Brother’s Keeper," I felt there were stronger episodes out there.   For me, a triumphant return of Bobby Singer was the feel good episode of the year, and dammit at that point of the season, I needed to feel good.  It was also one of the few episodes where Crowley showed a spark, so it was a win all the way around.  

Comments  

Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-07-05 05:28
Well, it mostly did went according to what I voted. Few of them were ones that I didn't think of and because of that changed from my own choice for them.

These were a tie for me. I needed to chose one:

What was the Funniest Scene of Supernatural Season Ten?
“About a Boy”
Teenage Dean goes to drive the Impala and pulls the seat up, pushing Sam’s knees into the dash – 37%

Oliver Pryce, the atheist psychic meets Castiel, the angel, “Inside Man” – 10% (This was very VERY good)

I voted all three:
What was the Best Gratuitous/Tota lly Sexy Moment of Season Ten?

Every Second Sam and Dean were on the screen - 27%
Sam running through the bunker after Dean’s nightmare. Bedhead and shoeless! "Inside Man" - 24%
Demon Dean roaming the halls after Sam, with a hammer! "Soul Surivor" - 19%

Also, Best quest actor would have been a tie. Omundson, Beaver and Everett were all phenomenal. My scale were tipped to Everett though just because he totally captured Dean with his acting. He was Dean. + the actor playing Pryce did remarkable and I would love him to come back. (BUT not to be killed! You hear me show?)

What was the Worst Crime Against Supernatural by the Writers?

Hands off killing the quest characters. Yup, friends, family, people the brothers have around them have turned whole lot of dead. And I don't care about what gender they are. Men, women, children. They die in this show. It has turned so bad that I actually don't want the quest characters to come back because fearing they will get killed. Supernatural is worse than Game of Thrones and that is saying something.

The Sam thing was not my choice at all and will never be unless Jared would completely not be in the show. The whole show is about two brothers and their story and it has always been like that and that is how I see it. Says something that the other winning choice that won was Sam saving Dean no matter what and he did save him. It was clear for me the whole season.

What was the Worst Plot of Season Ten?

This was actually hard for me. I really don't understand the Frankensteins dislike. Is it an American thing? I am really curious because me and my husband didn't see anything wrong with that reveal. And I have seen same reaction in other sites. The reveal, scene and quote it was revealed was bad but Supernatural has used even before stuff from horror books (Was it the writer of Cthulhu and his transcript?) Also what made me actually like the story line was Jacob Styne. The actor was really, really good and the episode pretty great too. I also liked the southern accent. I know where you are from shouldn't matter but in this case it does. Being European does change how you see things. Saw it in the reactions for episode Route 666 too. For me the Stynes were just another monster.

Best episode.

I choose all the choices. I really couldn't pick one because all were good in their own way and can't be compared to one another. Except Ask Jeeves. I know I don't criticize that much but I do know which episodes are masterpieces. If all episodes were like the ones down I would be in heaven.

“The Executioner’s Song” – 24%
“The Werther Project” – 19%
“Reichenbach” – 8%
“Inside Man” – 11%
“Fan Fiction” – 20%
“Brother’s Keeper” – 16%

What was the best “Kick It in the Ass” Moment of Supernatural Season 10?

Tie, both great even though they were very different kinds of fights.
“The Executioner’s Song” - The whole Dean and Cain confrontation - 43%
“Reichenbach” - Dean vs. Cole fight - 14%

- Lilah
Bevie
# Bevie 2015-07-05 16:30
I see that I agree with you Lilah in your picks and choices.

I too didn't freak out about the Frankensteins being the monsters. Thought it was rather clever in fact.

Also I don't get the "Sam not having a plot" complaint. Especially since Sam shows up in most of the "best" categories.
Sam's plot for season 10 was saving Dean. Not a bad occupation. I suppose for Sam girls, if he had the mark of Cain
then he would have "a plot", and Dean would not. Can't wrap my brain around the no plot for Sam bit. Every season
to me is a brother season together and they are brothers together and would not be the same with only one of them.

One thing I do hate and detest through the years is the needless killing off of wonderful characters who are made
for us to care for them and then shocking us by killing them. Been doing that since season 2, with Andy Gallagher.
I remember Sera Gamble in an extra on the dvd remarking that the writers create lovable characters for the
fans and then kill them, and laughing about it. And that's probably the only thing I absolutely hate about the show!

On to season 11 and I sincerely hope we have a plot for each of the brothers to satisfy both their Sam and Dean fans.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-07-05 16:51
Yeyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyy Bevie is back baby :D
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-07-06 09:02
Quote:
I suppose for Sam girls, if he had the mark of Cain then he would have "a plot", and Dean would not.
isn't it nice for Bevie to tell you all what we think.Still the same kind of comments I see.Quote:
Every season to me is a brother season together and they are brothers together and would not be the same with only one of them.
Yes and what does this have to do with SAM NOT HAVING POV OR PLOT. Quote:
One thing I do hate and detest through the years is the needless killing off of wonderful characters who are made
for us to care for them and then shocking us by killing them.
Agree with this. (but for me Charlie was not on of them)
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-05 19:42
Surprised that so many found the Werther Project a good brotherly moment since Sam was lying through his teeth to Dean. And Dean turns to Benny for guidance and ultimately saves himself.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-05 20:06
It wasn't Benny that Dean turned to. It was Dean. The Benny in Dean's mind wanted him to kill himself. Dean knew that Benny (or Sam either) would ever tell him to do that. That was Dean's own mind. And Dean did eventually try to act on that by summoning Death.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-05 20:09
Yes. I said Dean saved himself but in his head he turned to the one person that never let him down. The box used that to try and get Dean to kill himself.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-05 20:42
I agree it wasn't Benny. It was Dean. In Dean's mind Benny was letting him down by trying to get him to commit suicide. The Mark wouldn't let Dean die not Benny.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-07-05 21:15
I agree that it doesn't seem like a good brotherly moment since Sam was hiding something from Dean, and Dean was hiding from Sam the fact that Dean was destined to kill him.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-05 21:16
Cain's words weren't preordained. I thought Cain said it to get Dean to allow him to kill him.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-07-05 22:24
It's irrelevant whether they were preordained. The significant fact is that DEAN believed it to be true, hence his nightmares about it. Under those circumstances, it was a pretty big secret to be keeping from Sam, a secret that put Sam's life at risk.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-05 19:53
I Don’t see Sam as being sidelined this season. His arc was becoming the big bad, well actually the biggest bad ever because he unmade creation by reversing God's great work (let there be light! !!). When I finish my reviews on TVFTROU I will shed light on this controversial take.
I rejoiced at Charlie’s death. I took it as much a sign of how wrong Sam’s actions were, as much as Sam driving Dean to embrace the Mark.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-05 20:27
Dean also had a hand in releasing the Darkness. Since Dean knew that Sam would never stop until Dean was free of the Mark he should have followed through with killing Sam. He didn't and he knew what the consequences of that decision would be. He chose Sam and skewered Death.
I did not rejoice at Charlie's death. I thought is was a stupid decision that created nothing but disappointment in this team of writers for killing yet another character that had wonderful chemistry with the Winchesters (Dean in particular). Kidnapping her would have created the same tension and killing spree from Dean. So unnecessary.
Charlie got Charlie killed not Sam. She made the most ridiculous decisions in the history of any character on the show. The writers had her doing things that our usual clever and resourceful Charlie would never make. If you remember Sam left a powerful angel in charge of protecting her. Cas couldn't protect her from her decisions either.
Sam wasn't the big bad IMO. I really don't think we had a big bad this season. There was no season long monster arc. It was just Sam and Dean trying to cope with the Mark and find a way to remove it. Dean wanted so desperately to be rid of it and become the person he was. His confrontation with Cain reinforced what Dean already feared. He was going to become the very thing he had hunted and despised his entire life. Both Charlie and Sam planted the seed in Dean that he was powerful enough to overcome the Mark's influence. When Sam showed Dean the photos (the same photos that Dean looked at after he had been partially cured) it gave Dean the strength to overcome the evil and be just Dean, the hero, the brother. No one ever tells Dean it's his destiny. He doesn't believe in that crap and he never will.
I for one loved that the brothers chose each other and the Mark is gone. I would love to see the Winchesters unaffected by any supernatural affliction. Just human Sam and Dean battling the Darkness whatever that means together.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-05 20:31
Nope. That’s fanon. Dean told Sam repeatedly no. Stop. Dean certainly thought Charlie’s death was a wake up call for Sam and enough to stop him dead in his tracks. Dean is responsible for killing Death and whatever fallout there is from that. He had nothing to do with the Darkness. Sam has responsibility for that with help from Charlie and, Cas who both agreed to help. Rowena was coerced by Sam and Cas. Crowley helped for Dean and knew nothing of the consequences.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-05 20:54
I know you and I will never see eye to eye on this. When did saying no to a Winchester stop them from saving each other. No matter the consequences. Death warned Dean that Sam would never stop. That was why Dean deceived Sam by calling him to the diner. He knew that Sam had to die. Otherwise Sam would figure out a way to remove the Mark and the Darkness would be released. Death had already told Dean that. Dean chose Sam over whatever the consequences of that decision would be. They would face it together.
Just like everyone else in the second half of the season, Sam, Charlie, Cas, Bobby, they all agreed to the plan to save Dean. Even though no one including Sam knew what the fallout was going to be. Sam is a commanding character but he isn't a god. He can't make anyone do anything they don't want to do.
And I disagree about Crowley. I think he knows a whole lot more than he ever lets on. I am sure he knew all about what it would mean to remove the Mark. He didn't know (apparently) how powerful Rowena was though. Can't wait to see how he and Cas get out of that one.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-05 21:01
Sam was told repeatedly biblical consequences. Biblical consequences means events along the lines of the great flood. People die. MOL had a file which Sam declined to read. Sam said he didn't care about the consequences. He knew enough and saying that it wasn't enough information was him shirking responsibility.
Sorry but the events were in play. Dean chosing not to kill Sam had nothing to do with the Darkness coming. Dean thought Sam had stopped in the Prisoner.
I doubt Crowley would want the Darkness because it is more powerful than him and creates beings more powerful than him. Most likely he will join Dean and Cas to save the world.
Yes we don't agree. Sam is responsible for the Darkness. We had 7 episodes of people telling him to stop. We have Carver saying that Sam may be worse than demon Dean. He was. He really was the season’s big bad. Love doesn’t excuse his actions at all.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-05 21:26
We don't know what the Darkness is yet. We don't know if it is more powerful than Crowley. Crowley said he had the Winchesters right where he wanted them. He knew that Dean would betray him. When Dean gave the Blade to Cas, Crowley didn't seem all that upset.
I disagree I think Dean's love for Sam does excuse Dean for not killing Sam.
All those people telling Sam to stop went along with the plan anyway though didn't they.
And yes I agree Carver said we would question which brother was worse. He did leave that up for personal interpretation didn't he. Since I never come at the story with either Dean or Sam as bad or unheroic (I was one of the few Sam fans that understood the possession, even with the death of Kevin) I never think of either brother as a ''big bad''. They are just doing whatever it takes to keep each other safe.
I loved Jensens take on the finale. He basically said if they give in to the supernatural or give up on each other than they have lost the fight. They will always chose each other.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-07-05 21:35
Jeez, once again you misunderstood the sequence of events on the show. Sam was told only ONCE of the allegedly "biblical" consequences, and that was right before his life was supposed to be forfeited. and he didn't get the full spiel about what the Darkness was, only Dean heard all of the details. Prior to that, all he heard was that the Book was evil (much like the MOC) and that there would be unspecified consequences from using the spell. The only thing he knew for certain was that the MOC was going to turn Dean into the murderous heir to Cain, who nonchalantly decided to wipe out the one sixth of the world's population that had descended from him.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-06 00:13
Dean told him in BotD and read him examples from the MOL files. (Edited by Alice. Just want us to stick to the points).
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-05 20:56
By the way my POV isn't anymore "fanon" than yours.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-05 21:03
It kind of is in this case because the facts are indisputable that Sammy's actions lead to the darkness.
Dean actively fought against Sam’s actions and didn't know what Sam was doing. He did nothing to find the book, use the book, or cast the spell. He cannot be held accountable except by fanon.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-05 21:12
Disagree.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-07-05 21:37
Cheryl, you have stated the events from the show far more accurately than PSG, so it's clear to any objective person who is guilty of fanon- and it ain't you sister!
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-05 22:05
Actually she hasn't. I stated canon. Dean knew nothing of the BotD conspiracy. He contributed Nothing towards the BotD conspiracy and he told Sam and Cas to it use the book. He wanted the book burned. It requires fanon to twist events to make Dean responsible in the, slightest. But y'all do make me laugh.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-05 22:47
No you stated your version of the show. That is fanon as much as anyone else's version of the show. No one is twisting events. We watch the show just like you do. We watch with our hearts and minds just like you do. We interpret the show just like you do. If you come to a site and state your opinion as fact you are likely to get an argument. Even on the IMDB site. I see how you describe this site as the only Dean fan doing reviews here. I'll bet those that write for this site would disagree. And you would get an argument from a lot of others who post here that are also Dean fans (of which I am one btw). Being a Sam girl doesn't mean I despise Dean. Nothing could be further from the truth. I tend to watch the show in the spirit of the writers intent. Since I am reasonably sure that neither brother is supposed to be a villain or evil I don't watch the show with that agenda in mind.
If you want to come here and have a laugh at our expense then I hope you had a good one.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-06 00:30
Everything I started happened in the show which makes it canon. Sam instigated and oversaw the process that released the Darkness. Again this is canon. Dean killing Death or not killing Sam had nothing to do with the spell. The spell released the, Darkness by removing the Mark. This is all canon. We saw it or it was explained in the script. Saying there is a causal effect between not killing Sam and the Darkness being released is not canon. This wasn't shown or stated in the script. Therefore it is fanon.

Alice asked me to write reviews for the sister site to WFB, TVFTROU, because she knew I presented a different voice as a Deangirl. She wanted a counterbalance to WFB, more from the perspective of commenter than authors. Many Dean girls avoid this site and tell others to avoid it as well. She had no problem with me forwarding this information. She wants the new site to be inclusive. Unfortunately most people are wary about commenting.

I haven't reviewed beyond Werther yet because of health issues. I may change my opinion about some things on rewatch but not about Dean and the Darkness. He had nothing to do with that beyond apocalyptic mess. I am pretty sure he will be furious at CAS and Sam too. We will probably see the brothers separated when he learns the truth. This whole storyline me me wonder if Sam will always break the world.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-06 01:02
I suppose we could go back to the fact that Dean recklessly took on the MOC to begin with and put everyone in danger. We can go all the way back to Cain's decision to kill his brother that doomed Dean and the world. No one got to the end of S10 in a vacuum.
Dean girls avoid this site just like Sam girls avoid Dean centric sites. People tend to gravitate to those that agree with their opinions. It is the nature of the fandom. Unlike with other sites though all you will get here is a healthy intelligent articulate argument . You won't be run off the site for stating a respectful opposing opinion. That has happened to me on other sites. This is the only place that I can state my love for Dean and feel safe that I won't be ostracized for also loving Sam.
I tend to lurk everywhere. This fandom fascinates me. I sometimes wonder how we could all be watching the same show. Reading the same reviews. It is a phenomenon that isn't unique in other fandoms but the passion and the division over two characters that have an undying devotion to each other is weirdly contradictive. I can't get enough of the vast difference in opinion between fans that are just as passionate about the show as their sworn enemy....the other EB fan. Sometimes all you have to do is insert whichever brother into whatever argument and it is exactly the same for each camp. So very strange.
This site is so tame and well moderated compared to the wilds of the fandom in general.
Alice
# Alice 2015-07-06 10:56
Honestly, I'm just enjoying the lively debate. We haven't had one here in a long while. While I recognize that PSG's opinions are unpopular here, they're allowed and I've loved how you have handled your dissent too cheryl42. You have replied with the perfect amount of respect yet you are standing by what you believe. Thank you.

I wish we did have a more diverse group on this site, but it probably would take away a lot of the civility we have. Double edged sword I guess. Still, I don't mind a thread once in a while getting a little heated. This is after all a passionate fandom with all sorts of opinions as you so mentioned. It's good to hear from another side now and then, and whether I agree with them or not, I love PSG's reviews on TVFTROU. They are so well done and I wish I didn't have to put them on another site in order to calm things among Dean and Sam fans. But that's the reality of this fandom.

As for canon vs. fanon though, that's really hard to discern on SPN anymore. There's way too much material. Here's an explanation that might help, although in this case, maybe not. I honestly don't think there is a right or wrong in this debate.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Fanon
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-07-06 12:04
Alice, as a Dean Woman I love the ''other side's views.'' I wish PSG would post her articles here. I have long stopped reading Everything like I used to because of the WFB fandom. I still love my #SPNfamily !!!!
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-07-06 15:47
I agree with having PSG post here as well. Is there any rule that says a review can only be posted on one site? Why not both? PSGs reviews and commentaries are always well thought out and insightful, not to mention humorous. We need some balance here. So I am going on record to join with my fellow Dean gal, NOLANOLA, in seconding her request.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-07-06 15:53
Elle2 posted both places once or twice. Vacation's I think.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-07-06 16:06
AlyCat I see you on IMDB. Do you have twitter or email? 1 of my twitter accounts is nolanola9. contact me. :)
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-07-06 16:16
There is PM (private messaging) on the Discussion Page. It's like email or DM only on WFB which I love. :)
Holla back chick. :)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-07-06 17:04
NOLANOLA - If you're on Imdb hit me with a PM. I'll answer you back.
Alice
# Alice 2015-07-06 16:27
That is totally up to PSG, but as of right now TVFTROU is a safe place for someone with a Dean slant to go, or any different slant for that matter. Someone with a strong opinion that will use canonical evidence to back up what they say. Sadly, the WFB is not a welcoming place for a variety of viewpoints, especially those that take the big Dean POV. I've lost writers because of EXACTLY what's happened on this thread. Someone questions Sam's motives or Sam's behavior and suddenly that person gets shouted down by the base. It all becomes a "Sam is being bashed as a character" rant. Heck, it's not even a welcoming place for speaking your mind anymore about a lot of things.

Look, I'm a Sam fan, but I think PSG is telling us to take a realistic look at what he's done. I'm not offended by that POV. I intend to deconstruct it more in upcoming articles. In the meantime, it's not too hard to go over to TVFTROU. For the record, PSG's reviews are very popular on that site. It just doesn't spurn a lot of discussion because I can't seem to get a good discussion climate going over there.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-07-06 17:02
Thank you for openly commenting on the atmosphere or climate over here. Unfortunately it needed to be done. That being said I really enjoy the time I spend here reading articles... and commenting and discussing (admittedly sometimes heatedly) this show I love with really great, insightful, humerous posters. I feel like it was a bit of a trial by fire that I had to go thru to get to this point and for people to understand not only where I'm coming from but my style of writing as well. I have also learned what conversations to stay out of to avoid unnecessary confrontations which is sad because then it can lean toward a thread becoming a bit of an echo chamber. So anyway, thanks for the comments and for this great big beautiful site you have created. And no, I'm not sucking up here guys, it's not the first time I've told her how wonderful it is! ;)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-06 18:05
Well I will take the atmosphere here to IMDB. On that site Samfans need not apply. With no moderator and a hard core group of Dean fans in charge it is hard to post any comment that could be seen as remotely Sam friendly. As a Dean leaning Sam fan I would never venture to post there. I saw all the trouble you had there when you first started posting on that site. And you are a Dean fan.
I'll take the WFB any day. Yes the Dean criticism gets to me sometimes but it never resorts to bashing (since that isn't allowed) and arguing never turns personal (since that isn't allowed either). Lively debates can ensue and you do have to defend your position (sometimes in an onslaught of disagreement) but I have never felt that I was going to be chased from the site.
In all the posts with PSG she had to defend her pov and others had to defend theirs. Debate can be a great way to pass time. As long as no one takes it too seriously it can be great fun. No one is ever going to change anyones mind but maybe it may make some at least open their mind to a possibility that never occurred to them before.
I don't care that PSG is a Dean fan. So am I. I just disagree with her interpretation of the show. I don't think I have seen anyone on either side come up with the conclusions that she has. But it is her opinion and I have to respect that. I always read her posts on TVFTROU and I comment when I can. Some of her points I can agree with most I can't. Mutual respect among adults (and we are all adults here) isn't that tough to do. If Alice and PSG want to post on this site too well why not. Go for it. We can have at least one thread that might stop short of a brawl. It could be fun.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-07-06 22:30
Responding to the poster who replied initially to my comment regarding Alices statement... sorry I can't see who you are or reply to yourpost directly... what the Hell is a hyperlink anyway? I'm on a Kindle sometimes its hard to read when the thread gets longer. The brouhaha over at Imdb was never because I was a Dean fan but more that I would not toe the line over what some of the "old timers" expected me to do. They are an equally feisty bunch who also will get riled up often unnecessarily. Honestly sometimes both sites are equivilant to tip toeing thru a mine field. Or is that mind field. Ha! It helps to know when to keep your powder dry. I still get into a verbal tussle now but then it helps if you are just as stubborn as they are. ;)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-06 22:57
...
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-07-06 17:05
I do not care if someone has a big Dean slant. I do care when the goal posts are moved because it is Dean .I saw that in season 9 and I have seen it last season it creates a double standard in accepted behaviour in each brother I simply do not like.
And no disrespect to PSG but I simply cannot agree with her .


But let not it be said as a Sam fan I stood in the way of the liberal rights of a Dean fan or reviewer doing whatever they wish to do where ever they wish to do it .
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-07-11 03:55
Agree Sharon.Goal posts are moved ..actions of their favourite are minimized and then cry abt Dean bashing.This is a common pattern.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-07-06 17:15
Alice, I have no problem with a diversity of opinions and with Dean's POV being expressed. I think there's plenty of room to analyze and criticize both brothers' actions. But where a reviewer loses me is when their analysis tips over into character hate. The reason I came to WFB is that it's one of the few sites where I've never seen character hate in the reviews, at least in the year or so that I've been coming here. The comments get more spirited and that's usually fine, but why on earth would I want to read a review of an SPN episode in which the reviewer's dislike of my favorite character permeates every paragraph? When I was exploring TVFTROU I started reading one of PSG's SPN reviews and I had to stop reading it halfway through. Not because she criticized Sam's actions, but because her dislike of the character was very evident in the phrasing and tone in which she expressed her criticisms. To some degree it's a matter of opinion, but to me the dislike clearly shone through. Similarly, I wouldn't want to read reviews which were riddled with anti-Dean bias and hate. To me, it's a show about two brothers, both of whom I love. I think this season has raised legitimate questions about both brothers' actions, and that it's possible to present those issues in a way that won't offend fans of either brother (except maybe the most hardcore fans). Many of the comments about the last few episodes expressed huge issues with what Sam and/or Dean did this year, and I think reasonable minds can differ. Nobody shouted down those commenters, and many Sam fans shared the critical views of some of his actions. But most of those comments were confined to discussing the actions taken by Sam, rather than bashing the character. On that count, I think PSG fails in her review and her posts. Sure, I could just avoid reading her reviews (and I most certainly would), but IMO when character bashing is permissible in the reviews, it changes the whole tenor of the discussions as well. Just my opinion, of course.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-07-11 04:02
Quote:
The reason I came to WFB is that it's one of the few sites where I've never seen character hate in the reviews, at least in the year or so that I've been coming here.
I agree,whatever you want to say abt commenters here ...reviewers can never be blamed for character hate here,Quote:
but why on earth would I want to read a review of an SPN episode in which the reviewer's dislike of my favorite character permeates every paragraph?
yes .but I am okay if PSG comments here .I will just skip over it If I find the hate too much.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-07-11 03:53
Quote:
but I think PSG is telling us to take a realistic look at what he's done. I'm not offended by that POV.
this assumes that PSG is taking a realistic stance.When in PSG's comments Dean taking on the mark is just given lip service and Sam's part is repeated again and again (like how the show does) .I and others like me will point out the hypocrisy and if this is seen as unwelcoming i cannot do any thing.
Oh and PSG does Bash sam.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-07-06 13:07
Congratulations Cheryl! Your take on the events that lead to the Darkness is supported by none other than Jeremy Carver. In that TV Guide interview he said the following:

Quote:
There’s no question the boys will feel the burden of having been part of releasing the Darkness. It’s tough for me to believe, however Dean will get to that place. You might have to file this one under the price Dean was willing to pay.


It seems pretty clear that the guy who actually plotted out the course of Season 10 thought that the actions of both brothers lead to the Darkness. Sounds like canon to me.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-06 13:24
See I was paying attention in class....:D
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-07-06 02:41
Agreed. The Darkness!!! would never have been released as long as the MOC remained on Deans arm. Dean had nothing to do with the spell/cure from the BOTD. Dean knew when he missed Sam and killed Death that he was accepting his fate. After learning about The Darkness!!! and its correlation with the MOC he never would have been okay or accepted the cure.
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-07-06 10:21
Then he should not of taken the MOC on in the first place. Dean cannot take any sort of moral high ground in any of the scenario that occured , Dean,s culpability in this is clear and should not be obscured or hidden by what he would or would not be happy with.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-07-06 14:47
No Sharon..the thing is what happened in the final episode is a standalone..wha t happened before that has no bearing...Sam tortured by Cole...well its forgotten..you see similarly when Sam was chased by Dean where Sam would have died ..well why would Sam get affected by it..Dean had it under control all along...If only Sam had let Dean go his merry way..the same way dean let Sam go his merry way in season 4...
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-07-06 16:26
Carver did not confirm the interviewers question. The interviewer was confused over Dean not killing Sam leading to release of The Darkness!!! The price Dean was willing to pay was saving Sam, killing Death and continuing to be the bearer of the MOC. Dean will feel guilt over The Darkness being released because that's Dean but he isn't responsible for it happening. Taking on the MOC, yes, but he was willing to be accept that he would have to bear the MOC once Death explained it all to him. As long as Dean keeps the MOC, The Darkness!!! stays where it belongs. Dean didn't want the BOTD used because of the dire warnings of biblical proportions - even Cas and his knowledge of all things apocalyptic not to mention Sammys own experiences not to mention his college educated brain should have paused over that one because, hello... biblical. Dean didn't know Team Free Whomever were in the process of casting the spell/cure and after what he learned from Death if he wasn't hip to the plan before he sure as Hell would have forbidden it after finding out the true history of the MOC. So no, the fault for the release of the new Big Bad lies with Sam, Cas, Rowena and Crowley.
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-07-06 08:47
Wow, I don't know what to say. First time ever I don't agree on anything that a poster has written. I think others have already written well what I think about Sam saving Dean or their roles in season 10. I don't blame either one, period. How can I say this as diplomatically as possible. I am a brother fan but I like Dean. That is matter of taste. Still, there are rules on this site. First, even if it is not your point of view calling other people's point of view fanon even if it is shown on screen to them is pretty rude. (Excusing it because you don't see it that way is not really a good excuse or want to see it)

Secondly:

1. No character bashing
2. No Sam and Dean wars
3. No attacking/makin g bad remarks about other posters

On your comments I saw examples of all three.

- Lilah
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-07-05 21:09
Quote:
as much as Sam driving Dean to embrace the Mark.
I'm not sure what you mean by that statement. After the Gadreel fiasco Dean said he was leaving because he didn't want to drag anyone else through the muck. Sam, justifiably angry and upset about the angel possession, said "just go," and Dean proceeded to almost immediately thereafter make the incredibly foolish decision to take on the MOC from the Father of Murder, after being manipulated by the King of Hell. It seemed pretty clear that it was Dean's guilt which drove him to embrace the Mark no questions asked. there's absolutely no basis on which to blame Sam.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-05 21:14
I mean that Charlie’s death, the result of Sam trying to use the BotD, caused Dean to embrace the Mark to take vengeance on the Stynes. He was doing fine before that point. Sam drove him to break by creating the circumstances of Charlie’s death through lies and foolhardy pursuits.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-07-05 21:20
Doing fine? Barely an episode went by after he killed Cain in which we weren't told that he was "getting worse." The whole season and MOC arc was meaningless if you interpret the events as "Dean would have been fine and dandy if not for Charlie's death." Yep, what took Cain thousands of years to master, Dean was able to do in 1 year.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-05 22:07
Yes. Sam said he was getting worse to secure help. However c we were never shown that Dean was getting worse. He was doing the smart thing and channeling his impulses towards hunting. The irony is the Sam’s actions drove him over the edge.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-05 23:45
Quote:
However we were never shown that Dean was getting worse
Well we were it just wasn't being told all that well. Dean screaming for Sam in a horrible nightmare aside it just seemed to meander all season. That was the reason I was glad that the Mark was gone. It wasn't a very well told story line pacing wise and Dean was all over the place under it's influence. I agree Charlie's reckless decisions that led to her death was a catalyst for finally getting Dean to start being consumed by the Mark (something that should have happened much sooner in the season).
The mission from Sam was to save Dean's soul. And he did. He may have lost the world but he did what the story wanted him to do. He saved his brother. And I agree with Samandean. Sam is always in a no win situation. For some fans he can never do anything right.
From here on to the end of the series I hope that the brothers are going to be human. That is the strength of the show. Ordinary men fighting against extraordinary odds. That is the show I want to see.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-05 22:20
You do realize that Dean did beat the Mark. He didn’t kill his brother. My guess is that Death was a manifestation of the Mark and killing Sam was necessary to make the Mark permanent. The Mark could not be removed from Cain. Cain could only die once Dean got the Mark.
Nonetheless, Sam pushing for the spell and, saying that he didn’t care about the consequences, caused the Darkness.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-07-05 22:40
I certainly wouldn't say he beat the MOC, nor would the hapless Rudy. Dean's cute little "boo!" got Rudy killed, an action that Dean himself characterized as evil. And I think Baby Styne would also disagree. Dean merely refrained from killing Sam at that one particular moment, and had the spell not gotten rid of the Mark immediately after that, he likely would have quickly reverted to his murderous ways. What I find most amusing about your take on the whole thing is that, had Sam gone along with Dean's wishes and let him eventually succumb to the MOC, you would have been head cheerleader for the "Sam let Dean down!" crowd. You embody Sam's Kobayashi Maru situation- the poor guy can't win with you. Given that reality, any further debate with you is a pointless waste of my time.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-07-06 02:29
Interesting idea about Death being a manifestation of the MOC but I don't see that because Dean did summon Death and Sam was there and saw Death too?

I loved the whole Crowley first then Castiel then Sam plot and I really thought they were going to go there but when nothing ever happened with it you have to think it was one of three things: 1) An idea that was dropped. 2) Cain justifying to Dean that he was doing him a favor by murdering him 3) Trash talk. But Cain already had Dean down with a knife at his throat, he had no idea Dean was going to lop off his hand and ultimately win the fight so the trash talk makes the least sense to me. Cain liked Dean so explaining why makes a little bit more but the one I'm going with? Dropped plot line. It was also there for us to worry over Sams well being. If Dean gave it any weight I'm sure he knew as long as he didn't kill Crowley the "prophecy" would never come true. I don't see how Sam was in any more or any less danger by Dean not telling him considering the history of the First Blade. Sam was more than well aware.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-07-06 12:39
PSG - this conflicts with your earlier statement "Cain's words weren't preordained. I thought Cain said it to get Dean to allow him to kill him." Which is it going be?
lala2
# lala2 2015-07-05 23:54
The problem is they never showed us Dean "getting worse" . . . . . at least not to me they didn't. I felt Dean behaved normally for the majority of the season, which is why I had issues the MOC story.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-07-06 00:43
I agree they didn't do it in a compelling way because they didn't want him to seem TOO evil. But when he slaughtered that room full of thugs in the Clair episode, clearly we were supposed to understand from his and Sam's reactions that he was behaving shockingly. And truly it isn't typical of the brothers to kill humans, even lowlifes, willy nilly. And the infamous Dean "eye roll" at the end of ES clearly was supposed to signify something, as was his toying with and then beating the crap out of the college students in Inside Man, and smashing that witness's face in Angel Heart. So while I agree that Dean never did anything wildly OOC, TPTB certainly wanted us to THINK he was getting worse- they just depicted it in a wishy washy way.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-07-06 02:03
In Inside Man he beat the college students up after Rowenas attack dog spell in self defense, he resisted the MOC wanting him to kill. Had she not shown up it would've ended in Dean scamming them over a couple pool games. Smashing the guys face at the bar into a table? Expediency, while giving into his urges to violence. That was more like pissed off Dean over the situation than MOC Dean to me. The most shocking thing Dean did to me was tear up his motel room. I kid. Kind of. That and the beatdown of Cas. Yeah he killed Styne Jr. but he did say he was going to kill everything and everyone they ever loved so it makes sense in a revenge kind of way and I don't blame him for that, nor would I if it had been Sam in his place. Rudy? Did Dean know the vamp would panic and kill him? Could have gone either way. We were supposed to be shocked that Dean didn't care but to also see he wasn't completely gone because he rescued the girl. So yeah they definitely could have taken Dean darker and it would have made so much more sense if they had. Instead of having him kill for vengence make it more shocking. Not just taking out monsters and monster wannabes and innocent little motel rooms.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-06 02:33
I don't know if you have seen the video from the S10 DVD's about the Mark and Dean's journey. It really is a good look at the season arc for Dean.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-07-06 03:09
No, I haven't seen it. Link?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-06 03:22
[video]https:// www.youtube.com /watch?v=EpJyRz OAW9s[/video]
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-07-06 12:30
Cheryl & Lilah, you find thee best video's. Thanks.
Wednesday have you seen this video?
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-07-06 13:37
Thanks Nola! :)

- Lilah
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-07-06 16:31
Thank you Cheryl for the link. . I didn't realize I had seen it, I think it was the title that threw me. ;)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-07-06 01:25
SamandDean: This is in response to several different posts, not just yours, for simplicities sake. ;) Told never shown. That little dust up in the bar that Cas reported to Sam as Dean snapping? Really? The last time they showed Dean really losing it was when he killed Claires faux father figure and his merry band of miscreants and rapists. He didn't truly give into the MOC until after the revenge quest on the Stynes. That's when he started slipping but even then I kept waiting for these horrible antics to ensue and mostly all we got was a pissed off (Castiels beat down), rude, careless (Rudys death) motel room wrecking Dean. When he summoned Death he was done with it, he knew he couldn't fight it forever so he was trying to do the right thing. When Death upped the ante stating that he could remove Dean from the planet altogether he accepted that. When Death told him Sam had to die I think by then in his state of mind that made sense as well and was why he called Sam to meet him. Dean knew the consequences of the MOC being removed and he was going to do whatever he had to do to prevent it. Even if it meant killing Sam. Whether or not he would've been able to go thru with that if it hadn't happened the way it did - who knows? Unfortunately Sam and company are responsible for using the BOTD (which Dean repeatedly expressed he did not want and that both Sam and Dean were more than well aware of the consequences being of biblical proportions) which removed the MOC thereby releasing The Darkness!!! This one is not on Dean - once he learned the true identity of the MOC being both a lock and key against, there was no way he was going to remove or give the mark to anyone else. That he chose not to kill Sam had nothing to do with the release of The Darkness!!!

The brotherly bond is going to have to get over quite a few hurdles yet. Dean has yet to learn the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Not just from Sam but from all parties involved.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-06 02:02
Oh I don't think Dean is a moron. He knows that Sam and friends did something. He knew that Sam had the BOTD. He knew that Charlie was deciphering the codex as part of a plan to remove the Mark. I am sure Dean is clever enough to have put it all together. He didn't seem all that upset that the Mark was gone.
Dean chose Sam. He knew the consequences. Whether it happened right then or at another time in the future Death knew that Sam would never stop. He told Dean that. Dean chose to save Sam anyway.
And by the way I am not placing blame on either character. The point of the finale was that Dean chose his own destiny. Not some preordained future that involved killing Sam. He told Cain that in ES. That would never happen. Dean was strong enough to overcome the Mark long enough to skewer Death. Dean as always chose his own destiny. He and Sam will go down together or prevail together. All is right in my SPN world.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-07-06 03:07
Dean doesn't know that the cure called for a human sacrifice, he also doesn't know that Rowena has both the Codex and the BOTD and is in the wind. Nor does he know that Metatron is free and in possession of the Demon tablet. As far as the MOC being gone, I don't think he had all that much time to really process it so that all remains to be seen. How could he not be upset about the MOC being removed? After Death told him about The Darkness and how it all tied in to it. I'm sure he's glad Sams alive and well but I can't see Season 11 starting out all happy, happy, joy, joy, when everything else above and beyond The Darkness!!! has to be addressed. Sammy and company still have some splainin to do.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-06 03:11
Neither does Sam. He wasn't there when it all went down. I can't remember but did Cas tell Sam about Metatron taking off with the demon tablet? I don't think Sam knows about that either.
I don't see how S11 is going to start out happy, happy, joy, joy. Let's see how they survive being consumed by the Darkness first.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-07-06 03:42
Sam knows - in Book of the Damned when Deans brought in the pizza and is asking Cas 'so you're back? 100%? How'd that happen?' Off the look Sam gives him he lies and says something about Hannah getting it back for him. Then Dean says to Sam that he told him they were due for a win and both Sam and Cas look guilty. Does he know about Metatron having the demon tablet, I can't honestly remember. I think it's implied Cas told Sam about all of it but anything definite, I can't say for sure.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-07-06 13:11
Sorry AlyCat, but as my above post indicates, I'm with Cheryl and Jeremy Carver on this one- plenty of blame to go around.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-07-06 18:45
Quote:
the BOTD (which Dean repeatedly expressed he did not want and that both Sam and Dean were more than well aware of the consequences being of biblical proportions)


Alycat, I have to disagree with you about what the brothers knew about the consequences of using the BOTD. Dean told Sam that the Stynes had used it on a number of occasions and there was always some negative consequence, which he said was "biblical" negative, but what does that mean? The world kept on spinning, life went on as usual for most people. He had no idea what consequences would ensue from using it to remove the MOC, nor did anyone. So how can you weigh the unknown cost of using the Book against the KNOWN cost of bearing the MOC? As the sole bearer of the MOC Dean was going to go down Cain's path, and Cain admitted the horrors of his reign of terror. And after a 100 or so years of "remission" Cain was spurred (by Dean's actions in disturbing him, by the way) to attempt to kill ALL of his descendants, which he estimated at one sixth (I think) of the world's population. One sixth of 7 billion is more than a billion people. Not until Death enlightened them did Dean or Sam know of the ACTUAL consequences of using the Book to remove the MOC- the release of the Darkness. And by that point it was pretty much too late, although neither brother knew it at the time. So when Sam agreed to sacrifice himself, as far as he knew the spell would never be cast and Dean would be sent to Pluto or wherever with the MOC intact. Sam had knowledge of the Darkness for a whopping 10 minutes after which he agreed to go along with Dean's plan and give his life. That's a very different scenario from one in which he knew exactly what would result from using the book, because as he correctly pointed out, nobody did until the very end. IMO, that makes a world of difference in how you judge his actions.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-07-06 14:50
Quote:
I mean that Charlie’s death
Charlie is a grown adult her choice. Live with the consequences..Same like Sam and Dean have to..Quote:
caused Dean to embrace the Mark to take vengeance on the Stynes.
Yes Dean's choice again. Looks like while Sam is not a marionette Dean and Charlie are.
Because Sam DROVE him to break.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-07-05 21:13
Quote:
When I finish my reviews on TV TROY I will shed light on this controversial take.
I will wait with bated breath for what promises to be an objective look at the whole situation.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-05 21:18
Lol. Kind of ironic from you.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-07-05 21:28
Just curious, did you also rejoice at Kevin's death, since it was a sign of how wrong Dean's actions had been, and since it drove Dean to the foolish decision to take on the MOC?
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-05 22:12
Kevin died because Metatron wanted him dead. Metatron curried Gadreel by lying to him... kind of like how Sam corrupted cas, and, Charlie to help unleash the Darkness. He lied to them repeatedly about DEAN'S condition go get them to help. I love how things fit together on tbis, show. Sam was mirrored with Metatron and Papa, Styne to hint at his big bad status. He was also mirrored with the family of vamps and the killer werewolf sister. I will have to look for more.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-05 23:03
Or the mirror was Dean struggling with a terminal condition that he was going to lose to. An evil power that was going to corrupt his soul as it did with the Stynes, Metatron. See how easy it is to view the show from differing POV's. No one is right or wrong. It depends on your own prejudices how you would interpret the show.
Sam corrupted Cas and Charlie? How? By being totally upfront and honest with them? By giving Charlie all the information she needed to see what the consequences were going to be? By telling Cas from the get what was at stake? How did he corrupt anyone? Again you put Sam into a godlike position of power over all other characters. I just don't see it.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-06 01:13
That's fine. At this time my interpretation of events is that Sam coerced them into helping by saying repeatedly that Dean was in be shape. I didn't see that Dean was in bad shape so I see it as Sam lying. His body language also conveys lying to me. He has nothing concrete to say in support except for a nightmare. I have a lot of nightmares myself.
None of them immediately jumped on the band wagon. They all needed to hear that Dean was in bad shape . To me it was reminiscent of Metatron tricking Cas into helping him by lying. Cas may well be angry at Sam too.

I don't think we will have a happy family next year. It will be a horrible year unless the Darkness disappears in 3 episodes for a conflating of High School Musical and Scary Movie or some such.

I posted transcript dialogue to illustrate why I say that Sam is canonically responsible for the Darkness. Death explained it 3 times and Dean once. Removing the Mark caused the Darkness.

But even if Sam didn’t try to remove it using the BotD until after the events of My Brother's Keeper, Dean would not be responsible for the Darkness because he refused to kill Sam. Dean is not his brother’s keeper. He us not responsible for Sam’s choices.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-06 01:44
Well I have to agree with you there. Dean and Sam kept saying that Dean was getting worse. But other than a few nightmares, beating up some drunk college kids at a bar, killing a few low lifes, it wasn't shown. I would have liked to see Dean going off the rails more. But that is what I wanted from the beginning of the season. All we got was a mopey semi demon/barfly. Then not a whole lot just the writers telling us he was getting worse and Dean wanting to get rid of the Mark.
I also agree that even if Sam, Cas, Bobby, Charlie, Crowley, Rowena and even Olivette hadn't released the Darkness at that moment Death had already warned Dean that at some point Sam was going to figure out a way to get the job done. That was why Sam had to die. Dean chose to kill Death instead for threatening to kill his brother. That kind of threat never sets well with Dean. He knew the consequences and he chose his brother anyway. And I loved him for it. He decided that whatever happened they would face it together. Dean wasn't at all angry that the Mark was gone.
It's funny that you use the term Brothers Keeper. That is exactly what they did. They each kept their brother safe.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-11 06:52
Except the writer's didn't give us a scene to hammer in your metaphor. The Stynes were willing to use an evil book to benefit their family. ..JUST LIKE SAM. Not like Dean. The Stynes did not care about the biblical repercussions.. . JUST LIKE SAM. Not like Dean. The Stynes only cared about the benefit to their family... just like Sam.

Add in scenes like that between Rowena Nd, Dean where she taunts him. He can’t kill the evil witch, the woman who tried to kill him, because then innocents would die. Dean is, the hood guy, the hero... and he was crushed by Rudy dying because of his choices.

Do we see Sam crushed by Suzie ' s Death, or Charlie’s... sure he's pitiful around,Dean but he didn't stop what he was doing. He continued to lie and scheme. I am sorry you dislike my opinion but it is not like the writing doesn’t support my interpretation. The show screamed that Sam was capable of evil acts when trying to save Dean since the pilot Dean was demonic yet saved damsels in distress. Sam acted like the demon. It's karaoke versus corrupting people to sell their souls. It's saving Kester ' s wife versus just walking away knowing she will die because it's not that important to you.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-07-06 12:56
When pressed as to why they drew a sigil in the store room, Dean out and out lied to Kevin, which directly resulted in Kevin's death. The fact that Metatron wanted him dead may or may not have led to his death; it would be purely speculative and is not canon. And, Metatron would have never found the angel and demon tablets if Dean had not tricked Sam in to being possessed by Gadreel, thereby giving Gadreel unfettered access to the bunker.. Dean is no less responsible for Kevin's death than Sam is for Charlie's death, the only difference being that Charlie's help was the result of her own free will and concern for Dean, and she wasn't being deceived.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-07-06 13:16
Well apparently in the eyes of some people, the only significant difference is that one action was committed by Dean and one was committed by Sam, so different rules apply. But I am in complete agreement with your extremely logical, based on reality, analysis.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-07-06 13:49
this was my big fear going in to season 10, that they would be afraid to "go there" with Demon Dean and MoC Dean. And, unfortunately, I think I was right; they were afraid to portray Dean too negatively and it really hurt the story and the urgency to get the MoC off of him.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-07-06 02:52
Kevin never would have died had it not been for Metatrons involvement. Had Metatron never coerced Gadreel then he would have healed Sam as promised and left. I don't remember him ever becoming a threat until Metatron brainwashed him. Before that I think his issue was that he was hiding who he really was because of shame? and had to make sure he stayed far from Cas to prevent being outed as to who he really was. I think.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-06 03:07
Why do you think that Metatron approached Gadreel in the first place. Dean had let the weak minded angel into the bunker (the serpent into the garden) and Metatron saw his opportunity to coerce Gadreel into killing Kevin (it was all about getting the tablets and eliminating anyone who had knowledge of the translation). If Dean hadn't trusted Gadreel Metatron had no access to Kevin. Now that is from one POV. As we all saw Dean struggled with keeping this all a secret. His fear of Sam dropping dead before his eyes was the blackmail that Gadreel was using to stay safe. I do agree however if Dean hadn't conspired with Kevin to cast Gadreel out he would have kept his word I believe. Gadreel wanted so much to be an honorable angel. His story arc in S9 was the best of the entire cast.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-11 06:42
Cheryl42, I think Metatron used Gadreel to go after canon to create a schism between the brothers. His had manipulated events almost since he was introduced. We know he read the Winchester Gospels. I think he was manipulating events to f... with Dean. Why? Because Dean’s refusal to kill Sam changed the plan. It's a pivotal point in the story. Yeah. Metatron was crazy.

And it segues beautifully into my next point. For me intent is everything. Dean’s stupid decisions nearly always involve the mindset that he’s hurting no one but himself. This season Sam simply didn't care about the collateral damage. He didn’t care who he lied to or hurt. He didn’t care who died. He didn’t care about biblical consequences because Sam was going to save Dean no matter what. Sam. To me this is significant.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-11 10:11
Well as I mentioned Gadreel's story was by far the most complete and well told of the season. His desire to be the hero and achieve redemption in heaven drove him to go down the wrong path. When he sacrificed himself for humanity was the best and most dramatic moment of the season other than Dean's death and resurrection as a demon.

And yes I realize you have always seen Sam as the villain in the SPN story but as I said I don't think the writers or the vast majority of fans would agree (and I'm not talking about just Sam fans). Neither Sam or Dean are the bad guys. If you want to play that game we can go all the way back to God (or all the writers and show runners) for creating this mess and ultimately dumping it all on the Winchesters in the first place. Yes Sam isn't put in this position if Dean doesn't run off and conspire with Crowley to take on a power he has no clue about. And I know you think that the Mark was a good thing contrary to everything we have been told but Sam was forced to make hard decisions in order to pull Dean's ass out of the fire. Can you imagine the outrage if Sam just let his brother become a Knight of Hell to reign terror on all mankind because he was afraid someone might get hurt? Can you imagine the collateral damage then? Cain went so insane he was going to wipe out 1/6 of the worlds population. Do you really think that Dean wouldn't do the same for Sam?
Everyone knew what they were doing. Charlie knew her decision was going to get her killed and she sacrificed herself to save Dean not because Sam deceived her. Cas knew exactly what the consequences of their actions would be and stood by a let Rowena complete the spell. Crowley brought in the final ingredient to the spell. I think he knows way more than he is letting on. Sam didn't cast a spell over anyone to help Dean. The only person Sam was keeping out of the loop was Dean. He never lied to anyone. They all knew exactly what they were doing. I think the writers were very careful to make sure we the audience knew that. And I do very much agree with you that Sam was going to save his brother no matter what. But in the end he did agree to let Dean or Death kill him in order that Dean doesn't hurt anyone else. Dean couldn't kill Sam or let him be killed. And Sam would never kill Dean or let him be turned into a monster.
That is the story I watch. I know others see it differently.
If we go through another season of the blame game honestly I will probably quit the show. It is stupid and repetitive and we know that in the end the brothers will always come back together. Can we just please have one season with the brothers on the same team fighting together whatever it is they are facing. No secrets no lies.
I will never hate either brother. What attracted me to the show was the bond between them and how far they would go for each other. From Dean's crossroads deal that ultimately started the apocalypse to Sam throwing himself into the cage to atone for all those consequences of being brought back from the dead these two have always been the heros of the story. Even if there is collateral damage along the way.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-05 20:01
I don't know Alice. I think Sam was wrong wrong wrong in everything he did. He lied, manipulated, coerced, threatened, killed to "save" Dean at the cost of the world. I don't think Dean will thank him. Furthermore, he didn't actually do it did he. Charlie was injured getting the Book and died to get him the translation. Rowena was forced to cast the spell with help from Charlie, Cas and Crowley. Charlie and Cas were lied to because as we saw Dean wasn’t getting worse until Charlie’s death drove him crazy. Katja ' s codex was a ruse to get Sam to give her a powerful book. People died because of Sam. The world may die. I just can't see this as a win. Dean won't either.
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-07-06 02:55
Dean would be in no position to not like anything . His self imposed needless foolish selfish steps in season 9 in getting the MOC lead to the situation in season 10 . I cannot agree with your coerced interpretation either and less so has he did not lie to Charlie who was in a more aware situation of what she was doing than Kevin had been, Charlie was a grown thinking person with her own agency Sam did not put a gun to her head and make her do anything .

The writers will not do Dean any favours if they have him judgemental towards Sam considering his own actions that lead to the whole mess to begin with .
Alice
# Alice 2015-07-06 10:24
That's something I'll be exploring more in my upcoming article (it won't be until after Comic Con), A Deeper Look at Sam Winchester. You are right, he risked an awful lot of save his brother. Too much perhaps. I'm sure that's what season 11 will reveal (something that we might learn more from Comic Con this weekend). I'm going to be at the panel and the SPN press room, so I'll get to hear first hand what they have planned. But I'd be rather disappointed if Dean was easily forgiving, but at the same time I hope he'd understand his brother's motivations. I wonder, will the reaction be like season five? Curious to see.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-06 13:18
As long as it isn't The Purge part 2. I really think fans are done with the blame game. I would hope the writers are too. I would like to see a healthy discussion between the brothers. Nothing said in anger just a civil conversation where each can explain where they are coming from and a measure of forgiveness. Then on to bigger fish and fighting side by side with no secrets and no lies.
A girl can hope.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-07-06 13:28
Good luck with that. :)
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-07-06 13:52
this is Jeremy Carver we're talking about, so we all know the direction this will take in Season 11. :(:(
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-07-06 00:00
I don't think it's good form for writers to be arguing with readers.
DAN115
# DAN115 2015-07-06 00:19
I couldn't agree more.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-06 01:15
SamandDean, actually no. I would not blame Sam for not saving Dean. I was very adamant that Dean didn't need saving. He needed love and support. In the end he got that from Crowley. I anticipate a lot more Crean next year.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-06 02:03
Cheryl42, yeah I deliberately used brother's keeper. It cuts both ways I think.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-06 02:27
Except in the Cain and Abel story Cain said he wasn't his brothers keeper after he had killed Abel. Dean chose a different path. He was his brothers keeper as was Sam.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-06 02:34
Cheryl42, Dean is not responsible for Sam’s choices. Cain felt responsible for Abel's choices, and for his decedent's which his why he killed them. He said he, wasn't his brother’s keeper to hide his crime.
Dean and Sam certainly feel responsible for each other as family does. Dean is not responsible for, Sam’s actions, unless Sam is a marionette.

Below is some of the dialogue a out the Book. Dean says many times don't use it. Sam disagrees.

Quotes to show Dean saying no no no to usung the BotD to remove the Mark. Sam admits there will be consequences and tells Cas, that Dean guessed they would be bad. Another lie because Dean showed him the MOL file. Furthermore characters have been telling Sam to stop since The Inside Man, and to punctuate this there have been be outcomes all along prior to the Darkness. It was season 4 times one million.
The Prisoner...
D: Ididn't need help. I told you to leave it alone.
S: What was I supposed to do, just... Watch you die?
D: The Mark isn't gonna kill me.
S:Maybe not, but... When it's done with you, you won't be you anymore. Dean, you're all I've got. So, of course I was gonna fight for you, because that's what we do. Listen, I had a shot --
D: Yeah, you had a shot. Charlie's dead. Nice shot. You think I...
S: You think I'm ever... gonna forgive myself for that?
D: You want to know what I think? I think it should be you up there -- not her. This thing with Cass and the book ends now. Shut it down before somebody else gets hurt, you understand me? 
......
CAS We can read the book now.
D: Oh, so, what? So, you might find a spell that might take this crap off my arm? Well, even if you do, what's it gonna cost? 'Cause magic like that does not come free. No, it comes with a price that you pay in blood. So, thanks, but I'm good.

Read more at: http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=105&t=18397

BOTD...
DEAN

Well maybe that’s not such a bad thing. Those people following you… Hmm? All kinds of wrong. Talking multi-generatio nal, centuries old wrong. The Styne family. Men of Letters’ files have them dated back to the early 1800s. They used spells to create disease, to destabilize markets. Hell, they even helped the Nazis before they came into power, and they profited from all of it.

CHARLIE

So, they’re like the supernatural Du Ponts?

DEAN

Basically. All the spells they used came from a book of “unspeakable evil” which they lost nearly a hundred years ago.

SAM

Okay, so they’re bad. So what. We faced worse.

DEAN

Sam, read the file. The way the book works, is when you use it, there is a negative reaction. I’m talking biblical negative. Dark magic always comes with a price. We know that. We’ve been down that road before.

CHARLIE

Well, let’s at least translate it, see what it says.

DEAN

You guys don’t understand. The book’s been calling out to me ever since I laid eyes on it, okay? Calling out to the Mark. I can hear it like it’s alive. It wants me to use it, but not for good. Look, I wanted it to be the answer too, okay? I really did. But we have got to get rid of that. Burn it, bury it, I don’t give a damn. We’ll just have to find another way to fix the Mark.

SAM

Like what?

DEAN

I don’t know.

CHARLIE

So you’re giving up?

DEAN

No, I’m not giving up. Charlie, I don’t have a death wish. Okay, even if I did, I can’t die, not with this thing on my arm. What I can do is I can fight it as long as I can until….

SAM

Until what? Tell me. Until what, Dean? Until I watch you become a demon again? Until then? I can’t do that. I won’t do that.

DEAN

Well, then you’ll just have to lock me up. Bind me to the bunker like you did last time.

CHARLIE

That doesn’t solve anything.

SAM

Look, just let us translate the book, okay? If there’s a cure, we’ll do it and deal with the consequences later. I can’t lose you.

DEAN

Really?

SAM

Yeah, really.

DEAN

You change your mind on that, cause that’s not what you said last time.

SAM

Oh, come on, man. You know I didn’t mean that.

DEAN

This is my cross to bear, Sam. Mine. And that book is not the answer. Now we got to destroy it before it falls into the wrong hands, and that includes me. I’m gonna go for a drive. Uh, Charlie, we forgot to pick up your snacks.

SAM

Dean, look…

DEAN

We’ll figure out another way. And Sam, I’ll get my vacation. But not today. Not like this. [Dean leaves the cabin.]
DEAN

[The Stynes are outside the cabin.] There is a cure for the Mark in the book. But it comes at a price. We got to destroy it.

SAM

Are you sure about this?

DEAN

It’s calling to me, Sam, okay? I can hear it. It’s calling to the Mark. It wants me to take the book and run away with it. Burn it now. [They hear the Styne’s outside. Dean and Charlie pull their guns.] Sam, burn it now.

[One Styne crashes through the window grabbing Dean while another crashes through the other window and grabs Charlie. Sam takes the lockbox with the book to the fireplace. Dean and Charlie are fighting off the Stynes as Sam takes the wrapped book out of the lockbox. Jacob breaks the front door of the cabin and enters. Dean shoots Jacob who keeps heading toward Sam at the fireplace. Sam throws the wrapped book in the fire.]
Wikipedia.

My Brother's Keeper...
CASTIEL

Nothing.

It's -- it's just if she removes the Mark using "The Book of the Damned"...

What of the consequences?

SAM

Which are what?

CASTIEL

Dean said --

SAM (loudly)

Dean guessed!

(Sam takes a breath and exhales loudly (huffs))

Cas, What are we supposed to do, huh?

Just sit on our asses, do nothing?

CASTIEL

No. We find Dean. (raising his voice)

SAM (loudly)

And then what?!

The only thing that stopped Cain was death.

Do you want to kill Dean? Because I don't.

And the only way I know how to save my brother is to cure the Mark.

And, yes, I know there will be consequences, but not you, not Dean, not anybody can tell me what those consequences are.

So I'm not gonna let my brother d-destroy himself on a guess.

We save Dean.

Wikipedia.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-06 02:43
Alycat, I have only seen it the once. My opinion is Death is too smart to ask Dean to kill Sam. Dean killing Sam would indicate that he was lost to the Mark. Not killing him would mean Dean is still in control. So the act of killing Sam is, a test of Dean’s state. If Sam needed to be dead to save the world Death could have snapped his fingers.
I suspect killing Sam really was necessary to make the, Mark permanent and that's why Dean had to do it. Then whatever stuff Sam had in play would be moot.
Anyhow I doubt Death is really dead. It was the wrong scythe. Death is smart enough to know that unless Dean was too far gone he would not kill Sam and Dean summoned him so he wasn't far gone.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-06 03:27
Death told Dean he would kill Sam if Dean didn't do it. For whatever reason Death needed Dean to kill Sam. I assume it was to complete the corruption of Dean's soul. I have a feeling we will find out more in about 90 days.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-06 02:47
Yes I watched the episodes. More than once. Those were my favorites of the season. As I stated above I am not placing blame on Dean or Sam for the outcome of the finale. They are both responsible (Dean for foolishly taking on the Mark and putting everyone in danger) and Sam for doing whatever it took to save Dean no matter the consequence. They both chose each other in the end. Both knowing (although Sam had given in. He was ready to die in order to stop Dean from hurting anyone else) what that would mean for the world. When Sam left his happy little group of conspirators Rowena was stuck at killing someone she loved. He had no way of knowing they had solved that little riddle. As far as Sam knew his death was going to be the end of it all. Dean was going to outerspace and Sam was going to ???? well we don't really know. Would the spell have worked with Dean in another galaxy? We will never know I guess.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-06 03:12
I agree with you Alycat.
.I don't agree with Sharon. There were multiple approaches to deal with the Mark situation. Sam chose his and made the bed that the works has to sleep in.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-06 03:26
Cheryl42, per MBA the Mark is not evil. It's a, responsibility. Sam perceived it as evil because it took Dean away from him. Dean never killed without a reason and he warned the pedophile gang to back off. I never saw Dean become evil.
Cain wasn't even evil really... just extremely cray cray.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-06 03:36
Uh... a Mark given to Cain by Lucifer after coercing Cain into killing his innocent brother. A Mark given to Lucifer by God who then cast Lucifer into hell because the Mark was twisting him into something evil. After receiving the Mark Cain raised an army of Knights that rained terror across the land. Torturing, killing and twisting human souls into demons. I'd say it was pretty evil.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-06 03:46
Cheryl42,
The Mark was created by God to hold back the Darkness. This is not evil. Anyhow according to the transcript for First Born Cain suggested the deal to Lucifer before he had the Mark.

According to First Born Cain suggested the deal to Lucifer before he got the Mark.

Cain: Abel wasn't talking to God. He was talking to Lucifer. Lucifer was gonna make my brother into his pet. I couldn't bear to watch him be corrupted, so I offered a deal -- Abel's soul in heaven for my soul in hell.

Lucifer accepted... As long as I was the one who sent Abel to heaven. So, I killed him. Became a soldier

of Hell -- a knight.

i never assumed that Dean having the Mark and becoming demonic was bad. He never behaved badly. I saw Sam and, Cas being elitist and over-reacting.

Dean had no deal with Lucifer remember.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-06 04:27
By the time that Cain gave the Mark to Dean he certainly knew it was a bad evil thing. The Mark has never been portrayed as a good thing. Dean has struggled with it from the beginning. It turned him into a dam demon. It didn't send him to heaven or turn him into an angel. It turned him into an evil being. It is bad.
Ok you all are going to have to carry on without me. It is way past my bedtime. Great discussion tonight.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-06 03:59
Cheryl42... yes. CAS TELLS Sam about Metatron and the demon tablet just before Charlie and Dean return with pizza.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-06 04:11
Thanks I couldn't remember that part. Well at least Sam knows that a human Metatron is walking around with a possible solution to their current predicament. The demon tablet seems to have a lot of useful information on it.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-06 04:33
Cheryl42, The Mark turned, Dean into something supernatural so he would be bearing the Mark forever to stop the Darkness. The Mark is a responsibility and, a force.. I never saw de facto evil.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-06 09:13
Yes he was turned into a demon. A demon is a bad thing. According to Death the Mark corrupted Lucifer into a twisted evil creature. God cast him out from Heaven. In the show Lucifer was never portrayed as good. Cain was a Knight of Hell. He was the Father of Murder. He created an army of Knights more powerful than any demon to plague mankind. The Mark corrupted Cain's soul. He was trying to wipe out all of his progeny evil or not. Dean was no different. He was slowly becoming corrupted by the Mark. It was evil.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-06 08:59
First, I don’t see fanon as a personal insult. It simplymeans the supporting evidence is all fan interpretation vs canon, for instance dialogue from scripts in which Dean repeatedly says not to use the book... Burn the book.

Second, I surely think the we are supposed to be discussing and questioning Sam’s actions. This is the season in which we meet Claire years later and hear her describe Cas as the monster that kidnapped her father and the Winchesters as bystanders that let it happen. None of them were heroes in her childhood story.

I actually wasn't comparing Dean and, Sam. That was other posters. I don't think the scenes between the brothers were very nice or beautiful this season... because context. Risking the world to save one person is never the right choice, or the heroic one in my opinion.

Carver has said more than once that we should question Sam's choices. I agree.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-06 09:31
It might not be insulting but it is condescending. Everyone interprets the show according to their own bias'. In this case you seem to be trying to make ''cannon'' fit your own desire to make Dean the hero and Sam the villain. That is fine if that is how you enjoy watching the show. It isn't my interpretation or the way I enjoy watching the show. So I will always respectfully disagree that the show deliberately portrayed either character as anything other than two heroic men trying their best in impossible situations to save each other from harm.
We have been questioning these two since Dean came and got Sam from Stanford 10 years ago. They have both made choices that have rocked the world but in the end they always stood together to defeat (or clean up) the mess they ended up in. The show is about the brothers together no matter what. And all throughout the season that has been on display from both of them. So I agree that the brother moments have some of the best in the series this season. It keeps me watching.
As an aside burning the book wouldn't have worked anyway. The Styne's would have ended up with it again and they would have become S11's big bad. Shudder...
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-07-06 09:35
Quote:
None of them were heroes in her childhood story.
Sam and dean dod not need to be the heroes in her childhood stories.Quote:
Carver has said more than once that we should question Sam's choices. I agree.
You are not questioning you are condemning.
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-07-06 09:36
Yeah, well I don't agree and like I pointed out there has been good examples already to counter your arguments. Also, I could point out parts on the comments where you did so but I leave the moderators decide the actions if there is any.

- Lilah
FridaB
# FridaB 2015-07-06 09:53
Interesting results this year. I agree 100% that I will never forgive tptb for killing Bobby. He added so much to the brother's story and they have not been able to replace that loss. I feel nothing at The killing of other recurring characters since, which is too bad (for me) as I would really love to mourn Kevin, his loss was also meaningless. Anyhow, good job pulling all these results together from such a disparate group of fans.
Alice
# Alice 2015-07-06 10:43
Thanks FridaB! I was a lot of work, but I do enjoy putting this all together.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-06 10:11
Cheryl42, Carver wrote 4 times in one script that the darkness is released when the Mark is removed. 4 times we are told this. This is uber canon. Whoever was responsible for removing the Mark was responsible for releasing releasing the Darkness. Sam not Dean. This is canon. It requires no twisting or convoluted fangirl thinking on my part. Carver wrote it this way.

As for the Mark. It is not evil. God made it. It is, a leaky doorway and the Mark bearer gets affected by escaping Darkness. Jury is out on how much it changed Lucifer because he was a prideful being all along primed to fall. Cain chose to kill his brother to save him before the Mark; he. Continued the behavior post mark. Dean took the Mark to hunt a powerful evil... hunt things, save people. He continued to do that post Mark too. He had better control over the effects of the Darkness as, demon. Why is demonic Dean bad all of sudden. Wasn't everyone complaining in October that he wasn't bad. Dean’s soul wasn't twisted so it's apples and oranges really.
Anyhow who else to be God's lock and key than the righteous man/servant of heaven.
I am wondering if the Mark will reappear on Dean’s arm because the spell simply opened the door temporarily. Hopefully the Mark will be explained better and the Darkness makes for good horror.
If a tiny bit of Darkness made the Cain we saw, imagine what all of the Darkness released at once will do. It will be The Purge X 1000000 24/7.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-07-06 12:34
My thinking isn't convoluted nor am I a fangirl. You see the show how you want to see it. That is fine. I will see it in the spirit in which "I" believe was the intent of the writer. No one is right or wrong. No ones hands are clean. But that isn't even the point. I don't really care how the Mark was removed. I am beyond giddy that it is gone. The brothers chose each other and that is all the matters to me. This is becoming a merry-go-round that has no solution. We obviously will never agree so let's just agree to disagree.
Alice
# Alice 2015-07-06 10:42
As moderator, I'm allowing all the comments. Why? PSG is a writer for TVFTROU and does Supernatural and Sleepy Hollow reviews there. She has a very different view on things (yes, a Dean slant) and offers a POV that unfortunately isn't tolerated by the readers on the WFB. We've become too PC as a fan site and tend not to approach discussions at all angles. That's why her reviews are on TVFTROU because that site isn't afraid to offer strongly opinionated articles for any show. PSG backs up what she writes with examples and stands by her views, popular or unpopular. They actually hold up on TVFTROU just fine. But I know, they might seem a little too aggressive here.

I welcome all opinions, strong as though they may be. A lot of what she is saying isn't wrong in my mind, but yes, they're her opinions. No one has a right to agree and if you disagree, you are more than welcome to say so. Defend your position! I'm cool with it.

I don't want fights to break out here, but honestly, this is supposed to be a discussion site that welcomes all POVs. That's always been our intent. My only request is (for everyone) try not to be so offended by one's opinion and offer more respectful and thoughtful dissents.
PSG
# PSG 2015-07-06 19:30
Yes. I am first to admit the show takes controversial places.

That TV Guide interviewer must not watch the show. Lord I remember when she printed that Dean went to Purgatory because he was standing too close to cas and Crowley sent Cas to Purgatory. No wonder Carver has trouble
answering her questions.
Carver never says that Dean caused the Darkness. That is the interviewer ' s assumption. Carver sticks to his vague talking points.

I see two scenarios regarding Death's death. Zombie Apocalypse and/or a means to bring back dead characters. Oh and more rogue reapers! So many rogue reapers...

I think Carver is exploring interesting ideas. Dean justifies Jimmy’s death and Claire’s loss by saying that Cas was a hero because he saved lives. How can Sam’s actions be seen as heroic if thousands die next season or millions. That’s what biblical consequences means. Think the great flood. Think the dead egyptians. Biblical consequences are not pretty.

WELL... Dean was certainly set up as the in the season 8 premier and he ended up killing a folks when he lost control. I don't think it will compare to the numbers that die next season. And Dean thought he only risking himself when he dealt with gadreel. He th wasought protexting Sam and Kevin by keeping quiet. He thought the Mark was a penance and punishment for himself and a means to do some good for world by killing Abaddon.
When Dean was wrong he tried suicide by metatron, then Crowley’s demon killing tour. Yes it was a clusterf... and Dean’s fault and we saw his guilt all along. And he to save the world from himself. Ultimately the Mark didn't change him because he still refused to believe that talking an innocent human life was the answer. It never is because it's human sacrifice and that is evil. Dean was unwilling to sacrifice his brother to fix a mess. Dean is not like Cain at all. Dean doesnt kulill innocents even with the mark.

Sam was willing to risk Suzie and Charlie and Cas and the world to save one man.... his brother. Sam risked Lester and Lester ' s soul to save Dean. Sam didn’t care and fate of Lester ' s doomed wife because Dean was more important. Everything Sam did out of crossed a line. He gambled with the world and lost. To me caring more about your own wants and needs to the point that you don't care who suffers or dies is evil. It was the motivation behind a lot of the monsters we saw this season.

A major part horror of the walking dead is in what individuals are willing to do for their own. Carver has tapped into that.

Yes I don't find Sam sympathetic because he rarely takes responsibility actions for his actions and seems to shrug off of his guilt. Likewise him acting like a Teenager still makes me cringe sometimes. But this season I felt like the Greek chorus in a tragedy screaming at the tragic hero in a Greek tragedy to stop before the bodies start piling up, all the while knowing that Sam wouldn't. It was good television. It's rare to see a character set up for such a fall. No Ruby this time either.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-07-06 14:13
One commenter has suggested that Sam is actually the "big bad" of season 10, and while I completely disagree, it got me thinking that if you look at the events of the past 3 years, a compelling case can be made that Dean is actually the main big bad of the entire 3 year arc under Carver. At the start of season 8 Dean returns from Purgatory hardened and having enjoyed the "purity" of the kill or be killed situation in Purgatory. This is the same Dean who actually enjoyed torturing the souls he put on the rack in Hell, and who has referred to himself on numerous occasions as a "killer." Purgatory Dean then spends the first half of season 8 lambasting Sam for not looking for him, going so far as to tell him that Benny was a better brother than he ever was. This emotional abuse (because in my mind that's what it was) abated halfway through the season, but then reared its ugly head again right when Sam was at his lowest, before the 3rd trial. Sam is an emotional and physical wreck, half-dead, and Dean chooses that moment to remind him once again of all of his supposed failures. This has the understandable consequence of convincing Sam that he'd rather die than let Dean down again, but when he makes that choice, Dean realizes that even a crappy, disappointing brother like Sam is better than no brother at all, so he now uses emotional manipulation to convince Sam that he needs him and loves him. Once again, his emotional appeal has its intended effect on Sam who stops the trial. But it's too late, so Dean makes the unbelievable decision of tricking Sam into being possessed by an angel. Dean does this although he acknowledges that Sam would rather die than be possessed by anything ever again. And Dean places his trust in a random angel because Cas refers to him as a "good soldier." This is the same Cas who has demonstrated nothing but a horrendous lack of judgment for the preceding 4 years, having most recently placed his trust in Metatron with catastrophic results. And the inevitable disaster ensues, with a rogue Gadreel commandeering Sam's body and murdering Kevin. Even Dean acknowledged that Kevin's death is all on him. Reeling from his guilt Dean makes the sublimely foolish decision to take on the MOC, no questions asked. He does this after allowing himself to be manipulated by Crowley, and knowing that Cain is more than just a friendly beekeeper. No, he's the Father of Murder, a Knight of Hell who unleashed terrible horrors upon the earth with his other knights. It never made sense that Dean would do something so foolish, but you could argue that he did it because Dean views himself as a killer, a killer who enjoyed his time in Purgatory, so maybe part of him wanted to be Cain's heir, with all that it entailed. And what it entailed was an increasing need to kill, and immortality as a demon (until Sam cured him). Yet MOC Dean continued to remind Sam of his failures, and what Dean perceived as his reluctance to save Dean as Dean had saved Sam. Significantly, Dean's last such reminder occurred in BOTD, with the entirely forseeable consequence that Sam would once again feel the desperate need to prove his love for Dean. That one last bit of emotional abuse led directly to Sam's decision to use the BOTD, and to all of the ensuing consequences. So I think you can make the compelling argument that Dean bears primary responsibility for everything that happened leading up to the Darkness. HIS actions set in motion the entire chain of events, and his continuing emotional manipulation of Sam was a crucial factor in all that transpired. Now, do I really think Dean was the big bad of all three seasons? No, although I almost convinced myself as I was writing this. But you can easily come to that conclusion based on the events as I outlined them. And it makes much more sense IMO than viewing Sam as the sole big bad of season 10. What I truly believe is that both brothers are well-intentione d but flawed men, who face unthinkable choices almost every day, and try to make the decisions that "suck the least" as Sam put it. Neither one is blameless in what has happened, neither one bears sole responsibility. And their overriding love for each other plays a huge role in the decisions they make. That seems to be Carver's sense of it as well, based on his TV guide interview.