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The Audacity of Supernatural - Top Ten Most Shocking Moments – Part Deux!

I’m back with more shocking moments from Supernatural, because the first 10 just wouldn’t do.  So consider this a supplement – part two, if you will.  

10.  “Fortunate Son”



In “Sympathy for the Devil,” we find out, quite surprisingly, that Dean is a vessel for the Archangel Michael.  He is, and assumingly always has been, ‘The Michael Sword’ (or…condom, as Dean so eloquently puts it).  Up until this moment, the Supernatural storyline had focused primarily on Sam.  To find out that both brothers had been ‘marked’ by Supernatural beings in such a way definitely added an unexpected flavor to the Season 5 story arc.  

As an aside, I thought the whole “castle on a hill of 42 dogs” riddle from this episode was quite unexpectedly clever.  How ‘bout you?


9.  “Papa Was a Rollin’ Stone”



“Jump the Shark” was surprising in many respects.  John Winchester had another family, a son?  Talk about rocking the foundations of the Supernatural world!  The whole thing was out of the blue.  And I admit I was frustrated at the thought of bringing a third, unknown Winchester into the story, not wanting the focus to be stolen away from Sam and Dean, whose relationship was so fragile at the time.  But I liked the drama this new discovery created – Dean, outright resenting Adam; Sam, turning into John Winchester overnight.  But the biggest shock of the episode was finding out that Adam was not Adam, and had not been for a long time.  I expected the youngest Winchester to be killed off, sure.  But for him to have been dead all along?  That, I never saw coming.  

Another shocker – the scene where the ghouls are feeding on Sam – I’m not squeamish, hardly at all, mind you – but that has got to be one of the most realistically gory scenes ever.  Those cuts looked real, and they looked deep.  Even re-watching the episode, knowing it’s not real, I still have to look away, pull my forearms close to my chest, and squirm.  


8.  “Wheel in the Sky Keeps On Turnin’”



I was so stunned by the fact that Bobby’s house had burnt down in “Hello, Cruel World” that I didn’t know whether to sob in grief or shout in anger.  I ended up in a place of weary disbelief.  Bobby’s house had been “Home” for the boys for so long, I know I took it for granted.  The loss of that safe place, along with the possible loss of Bobby (though that would come later) seemed insurmountable.  No wonder Dean left that desperate, heart-wrenching voicemail.

“You cannot be in that crater back there.  I can’t….  If you’re gone, I swear I am going to strap my Beautiful-Mind brother into the car and I’m gonna drive us off the pier!  You asked me how I was doing…well, not good!  Now you said you’d be here.  Where are you?”
Oh, Bobby.  If only the house had been the only casualty of Season 7….  :’(


7.  “Lonely is the Night”



The scene in “Family Remains” where Dean admits to having liked torturing souls was another one that shocked and angered many in the fandom.  Personally, I thought it was needed.  It made what Dean went through and his subsequent actions/emotions even more human and ‘real’.  However, that aside, the admission itself was shocking on principle.  After all, we had just gotten the famous “Heaven and Hell” roadside monologue – a Supernatural gem.  I wasn’t expecting any more emotional confessions from Dean.  Then we get this: something a little more edgy, tragic, controversial, and true-feeling than the last confession.  This was the dark side of our hero.  This revealed the singed, broken wings of our angel-in-the-leather jacket.  This showed that Dean was breakable – did break.  It made him relatable in the same way Sam was for wanting to use his dark powers to save people.  At this point, they were saving people to redeem themselves.  And that is some audaciously powerful storytelling, don’t you agree? 


6.  “Dirty Deeds”


Sam had seemed fine after his little resurrection in “All Hell Breaks Loose 2”.  Then came the graveyard scene.  
I actually laughed in surprise at Sammy’s childish retort after Jake taunts him.  

Bobby:  “Just take it real easy there, son.”
Jake:  “And if I don’t?”
Sam:  “Wait and see!”  

Wait and see?  Come on, Sam!  Surely you can think of a more bad-ass response!  

But then, I wasn’t laughing.  Because Sam killed Jake in such a cold-blooded way, it stunned me to the core.  And it begged the chilling question – had Sam somehow come back wrong?

P.S.  Did anyone else notice the music in the graveyard scene with John Winchester?  It made me think of Pocahontas Disney music for some reason….


5.  “Very Superstitious”


Something had been tearing Dean ever since the death of John Winchester.  “Croatoan” had left us what was arguably one of the most gripping cliffhangers in the history of the show, if not all of television.  Then “Hunted” revealed a shocking secret.  

“Before dad died, he told me something…something about you.”
“What?  Dean – what did he tell you?”

The buildup and anticipation certainly paid off.  Who could have thought that John’s last words whispered to his oldest son, were vague instructions to kill his younger brother if he couldn’t otherwise save him?  Who could have guessed that this was the terrible weight Dean had been carrying, nearly driving him insane, if not outright suicidal?  Who could have anticipated that John Winchester’s final words, his secret, would hang over the boys’ heads and be the driving force of the series for the next 3 seasons?  I certainly never saw this one coming.  Did you?


4.  “Sweet Emotion”



Ahh, “Sex & Violence,” one of the most painful, gut-wrenching episodes of the series.  First of all, what a surprise that the villain turned out to be a guy – and what a twisted, believable Siren he turned out to be!  There were two truly shocking moments in this episode.  First, was the jaw-dropping fact that Dean was utterly unable to fight the Siren’s influence.  I expected him to do what Bobby did when he’d been possessed by Meg and about to kill his surrogate son – regain control for at least a moment.  But it never happened, and if it weren’t for Bobby, Dean would have killed his own brother.  That was shocking behavior indeed, especially from one whose entire modus operandi had always been to protect Sam.
 
Second, and most shocking of all, were the cruel words that came out of Sam’s mouth, just a hop, skip, and jump away from Dean’s breathtaking car-side confession about Hell.  

“You’re too busy feeling sorry for yourself, whining about all the souls you tortured in Hell.  Boo-hoo.”  

If it had ever been a question before, it was confirmed in this episode – whatever Sam was doing, no matter how well-intentioned, it was changing him.  And not for the better.  The worst part was knowing that Sam really felt that way.  The Siren just brought to the surface what was already brimming underneath, proven in Dean’s words to Sam, which were just an amplification of what we all already knew he was feeling.  

Controversial and utterly audacious, “Sex & Violence” belongs at the top of this list.  

3.  “End of the Line”


Oh, the look on Sam’s face when that necklace plunked into that trashcan.  *Sadness*

This one needs no explanation.  

Some were infuriated by this unexpected turn of events in “Dark Side of the Moon” – but all were shocked and horrified.  What was happening to our boys?  Useless in the quest to find God or not, how could Dean throw out the amulet?  It was a symbol of Sam’s devotion, something Dean had originally felt ‘naked’ without wearing.  He was certainly giving up on Sam, giving up on everything. 
Talk about the pit of despair - what a low moment.

Aren’t you glad the boys came back from this?  

Sam redeemed himself, a million times over.  Now all we need is to see that necklace again.  [For we all know Sam grabbed it out of the trash].  :P


2.  “Love Hurts”


The discovery of the truth about what had happened to Jessica was a big deal.  To have it revealed in such a painful way, and then for Sam to restrain his broiling and completely justified anger for the greater good, was pleasantly surprising, and a foreshadowing of the strength Sam would have when being taken over by Lucifer.  

“The Devil You Know” was a great episode all around…especially the scene with Crowley and the hellhounds. :)


1.  “Heartache Tonight”

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Whether you liked the storyline or not, whether you liked Lisa and Ben or not, Dean was attached to this little family.  He thought of Ben like a son.  He considered himself ‘unavailable’ to other women when he was with Lisa.  And he tried to balance the life that gave him purpose and meaning – hunting – with a life that provided everything he’d secretly ever wanted – a stable family.  I had always wondered if Lisa had been lying to Dean way back in Season 3 when she’d said Ben wasn’t his son.  All the evidence tended to point to the contrary.  Then, for one heart-stopping moment in “Let It Bleed,” a possessed Lisa let us believe that Dean was indeed Ben’s father.  I will never forget that shell-shocking moment, nor the look on Dean Winchester’s face.  Why the demon even bothered to say she was “just kidding” is still beyond my comprehension – unless, in fact, it was truth, and she saw how much Dean wanted it, and decided the not-knowing would mess with him more.  I understand that this may not make the top of everyone’s list, so please feel free to share your picks.  Did I miss anything this time around?  

Thanks for joining me in this romp through more shocking Supernatural moments.  I hope you had some fun.  Until next time, enjoy those reruns! :)  

Comments  

Lindab30
# Lindab30 2012-09-14 00:25
I enjoyed your list of shocking moments, thanks for sharing and for your insight to each one. I need to comment on just one. You make the statement that has been said been many: "For all we know Sam grabbed it out of the trash". I don't think that could be the case. After Sam went into the pit Dean had all of his earthly possessions which would have included the Amulet. He would have gone thru Sam's possessions at least once and he would have found it then. So unless Sam stashed it in a safety deposit box or found somewhere for safekeeping I don't think it's plausible. Keep this lists coming. :)
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-09-14 10:54
I've always gone with he kept it on his person, hence it went into the Cage with him. When Castiel resurrected his body,I believe the amulet came back with Soulless!Sam. After all SS said he found himself lying in a field, not he found himself lying naked in a field.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-09-14 01:36
Well, I did write it with a *wink* because it's something I've found that many fans, myself included, believe, no matter how implausible or irrational. :) We believe it because we just want to. But you're absolutely right...althoug h I think, considering how good and well-trained the boys are at keeping things from each other, that it is entirely possible Sam could have stashed it somewhere Dean wouldn't have found it. However, I agree that there are many more valid reasons supporting why it is unlikely that Sam grabbed it out of the trash. Thanks for commenting! :)
LEAH D
# LEAH D 2012-09-14 19:51
Hey maybe he put it one of those magnetic key thingys and has been on the underside of the Impala since then! Kidding. I think.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-09-14 03:38
I loved all your moments and your explanations as to why they fit so well with mine. I missed your first list when it was posted, but I went back and checked it out. All ten are some of my favorite moments.

There several others I would need to add though. Such as Sam letting Dean get turned into a vampire with a smirk that was a total WTF!!!!! moment for me.

When Dean was killed that last time in Mystery Spot and Sam went completely OCD scary. It was kind of a lighthearted episode up to that point (Despite Dean getting killed over and over again), but all of a sudden it was this gamechanging episode with such intense foreshadowing that Sammy doesn't do so well without Dean. Sam without Dean is freaky scary.

When the Trickster turned out to be Gabriel and all his behavior with the boys made so much more sense.

When Sam was killed in All Hell Breaks Loose was really horrible and shocking. I didn't see that one coming.

Same when I realized Dean was actually going to HELL, I didn't think they would go there.

When Sam turned out to be Lucifer's vessel was a truly heartbreaking, surprising moment for me. When he said he would kill himself first and Lucifer just says he'll bring him back and Sam looks so horrified. Neither could die now AND THAT WAS A BAD THING. There was no way to escape. Yes he could just not say yes but he'd recently failed so spectacularly that it felt like a hopeless moment. And the look on Sam's face is just devastating.

Lastly, I will always believe that Sam grabbed the amulet, I just think it unrealistic for the character to not have. I do think he could have hidden from Dean -it's pretty small. My belief is that he hid it somewhere in the Impala sometimes in the weeks before he jumped. Some place that wasn't effected by the crash. I really don't find that that unrealistic.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-09-14 09:46
Oh, wow, Soulless Sam letting Dean get turned by a vamp WAS a shocking one. Good picks. And I think psychologically I always skip over Sam getting killed in AHBL merely because I didn't start watching the series until S6, so I knew Sam lived through everything up until that point. :P
Thanks for sharing! :)
st50
# st50 2012-09-14 11:22
Fantastic list. Agree with every one in both lists. Even made me want to go back and watch a few because of your analysis of them.
Thanks!

Quote:


...this gamechanging episode with such intense foreshadowing that Sammy doesn't do so well without Dean. Sam without Dean is freaky scary.
This! This is actually the only way I can see them justifying the "Sam gets a normal life" in S8. At no time has Sam done well without Dean watching over him. Despite his best of intentions. I can see now that, because of his history, he would doubt himself at every turn. I don't like it, but since every single spoiler is pointing to it, this is how I'm dealing with Sam walking away.

And yes, please, Sam grabbed the amulet. :-)

Thanks Bamboo24! Counting the days now!
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-09-14 17:58
The only thing I know about S8 is that Sam hooks up with a girl and that Dean will be back the first episode.

I've been trying to be good and not look at promos or spoilers this year. Last season was the first one I really indulged in all this. When I originally watched the episodes, I wasn't in the "fandom" so I didn't have anything beyond the promos at the end of the episodes to tip me off. I hoping without me reading all the speculations and expectations I won't have a lot preconceived ideas again.

Then I can pick the episode apart with everyone AFTER I've seen it. I don't know if I have the will power but I'm going to TRY.

That said. I agree with you that Sam might be reluctant to keep hunting without Dean, because he has had such a bad track record when it comes to that. If he doesn't know that Dean is in purgatory than he figured it's safer for everyone if he retires, before he makes another catastrophic mistake.
st50
# st50 2012-09-14 18:10
Good for you, Kelly!
This is the first time I've been part of the fandom at the beginning of a season, so I have been watching interviews and reading the comments. I'm not so sure it's helpful.
Stay strong, you're almost there!
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-09-14 04:45
Wow, Bamboo, you certainly picked some powerful scenes here.
When I heard they were introducing a third brother, I was also a little upset about it, but I ended up enjoying that episode very much. You know, when Sam and Dean separated, I thought "this is not going to end well". One of them always seems to get into trouble when they're separated, but wow. I also cringe whenever I see them slicing Sammy's wrists, but what gets me is when we see the blood pouring into that bowl...There's so much and it's dripping so fast. Quite visceral.
Croatoan and Hunted was definitely one cliffhanger where I was thinking "You bastards", and yes the wait did pay off, I thought.
I could probably write an essay about each of these scenes. Such fantastic, gut-wrenching stuff, but I think I'll stop here.
Oh, and Sam totally fished the amulet out of the trash.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-09-14 09:50
Yes, and wasn't that the episode where Dean almost got trapped in one of those old mausoleums? That was kind of freaky, too.
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2012-09-14 11:43
I love all the moments you picked, just wonderful choices. There was one scene, while maybe not really shocking per se, always gets me in the gut. In season 4 when Dean finally catches up to Sam and Ruby in the hotel room and Dean says to Sam after that brutal fight they just had: If you walk out that door, don't you ever come back, and Sam does! Sob! That scene just broke my heart in two, and I love it. Such a great emotional moment.
st50
# st50 2012-09-14 11:49
Sylvie -
I love that moment too. My heart breaks for these two!

My reaction was "Dammit Dean! That's exactly what John said to him, and he left then. AND YOU'D JUST CALLED HIM A MONSTER! What the h--- did you expect!"
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-09-14 18:01
I agree I almost added that to my list, because if felt shocking to me even though the entire season had be leading up to it.
Bevie
# Bevie 2012-09-14 12:26
These were all shocking moments indeed.

What about when Sam agreed to cut the heart out of poor little Nancy in order to defeat the demons in "Jus in Bello"?
Shocked me as much as Dean. Sammy was scary then.

I'll always believe Sam fished the necklace out of the trash and probably hid it at the bottom of his duffel bag. Dean would keep the bag, but probably not want to shuffle around in it. Hope to see it back with Jeremy Carver.

I also believe Ben is Dean's kid, no matter what Lisa or Kripke say. He is he is he is! So there! :-*

Two things that shocked me to the core were the "Boo hoo" remarks from Sam to Dean and also when Sam put his hands on Dean's throat and choked him, right after he got out of the hospital from being throttled and injured by Alistair. Two things I find very hard to forgive him for. Those along with RoboSam and that smirk while watching his brother turned to a vampire. Those moments made me long for the relationship in Seasons 1 - 3. :sad:
st50
# st50 2012-09-14 12:43
I sure would like to see them find some way to forgive each other. Imho, they're both equally guilty where their relationship has gone bad. I'd love to see them get back that closeness. But it takes two to tango....
Maybe that's where the amulet will come in. :-*
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-09-14 12:49
This I totally agree with. Both brothers were part of the estrangement,. They need to both work on rebuilding the relationship.
st50
# st50 2012-09-14 12:56
Quote:
This I totally agree with. Both brothers were part of the estrangement,. They need to both work on rebuilding the relationship.
From your keyboard to Mr Carver's ears! Fingers crossed.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-09-14 12:57
See, I can't believe Ben is Dean's kid, because if that is true then a) Ben is growing up without his dad and b) Dean would be absolutely, irrevocable devastated. :/

That scene from "Jus in Bello" is also a good pick. :)
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-09-14 13:22
A Sam that was alright wouldnt of tried to do that at the end of WTLB'S but at the same time Dean was no innocent in that fight at the end.
Both that and the boo hoo comment was just a example of having Sam say and do things for the shock value rather than it was necessary.
Amy
# Amy 2012-09-14 15:01
Quote:
A Sam that was alright wouldnt of tried to do that at the end of WTLB'S but at the same time Dean was no innocent in that fight at the end.
Both that and the boo hoo comment was just a example of having Sam say and do things for the shock value rather than it was necessary.
Just like Dean would never have tried to kill Sam with an Ax...unless he really did want Sam dead.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-09-14 18:18
I sympathize with what your saying about Seasons 1-3 because I do miss that ultimate unwavering trust and love. But I 4 and 5 were just completely badass and still my favorites, so I'm torn.

Yeah the boohoo remarks got to me too and even more than Dean trying to kill him. It was the only time I remember Sam was deliberately cruel and even though he was under the spell you know he kind of meant it. I agree that that had as much to do with the Demon blood as the spell. -But still.

When Dean told Sam he would want to hunt him was pretty shocking as well. He wouldn't even kill him when he attacked Jo while possessed and now he was saying he maybe deserved to be hunted for using his powers. Whoa. It showed how much Dean had changed as well.
st50
# st50 2012-09-14 13:41
See Sharon, I respect your opinion, but that's where we differ...
I enjoy the elements that make our heroes imperfect. They are, afterall, just two boys (men now). Not saints, not heroes by choice. Chosen for roles without their knowledge or consent. They've both been manipulated by angels and demons since before they were born, supposedly because of a bloodline. Both were manipulated, their inner needs and wants twisted, into starting the apocalypse - Dean for the first seal, and Sam for the last.
The fact that they've remained together, through this and more, and are ultimately still good at heart is a testament to the strength of their bond.

They both say and do things without thinking- especially to each other - but that's family. You hurt worst those you love the most. Both mean well, but neither is free of guilt or blame. They are human. They can break. They can react and be hurt and get mad. They can be wrong. They can make mistakes.

I just can't stay angry at either one. I'm so ready for that reunion hug!
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-09-14 14:07
Quote:
See Sharon, I respect your opinion, but that's where we differ...
I enjoy the elements that make our heroes imperfect. They are, afterall, just two boys (men now). Not saints, not heroes by choice. Chosen for roles without their knowledge or consent. They've both been manipulated by angels and demons since before they were born, supposedly because of a bloodline. Both were manipulated, their inner needs and wants twisted, into starting the apocalypse - Dean for the first seal, and Sam for the last.
The fact that they've remained together, through this and more, and are ultimately still good at heart is a testament to the strength of their bond.

They both say and do things without thinking- especially to each other - but that's family. You hurt worst those you love the most. Both mean well, but neither is free of guilt or blame. They are human. They can break. They can react and be hurt and get mad. They can be wrong. They can make mistakes.

I just can't stay angry at either one. I'm so ready for that reunion hug!
Thats fine I dont expect perfect heroes either however I still stand by the fact the boo hoo comment and trying to strangle Dean was shock value and is what alot remember not Dean's behaviour in both instances.
st50
# st50 2012-09-14 14:12
Ok, I can accept that. But from personal experience, I can say that it's not too far a step to believe that someone - even a good person - pushed that far could want to strangle someone they love, who's hurt them that much - and act on it. (No, it wasn't me!)
I'll have to go back to watch the boohoo comment, but I like percysowner's reasoning below.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-09-14 14:01
Wow, S&V! Discussing that episode always makes me feel like a bad, horrible person raised with bad horrible morals. You see, I have people that I love with all my heart and sometimes they make me so mad or crazy that I think really, truly horrible things about them. I never tell them, because I know they are really truly horrible things and that I'm just over reacting. I don't say them when I drink. I don't say them period. But I do think them. And yes, this does include the extreme frustration and anger I felt toward an ex who was suffering from a nervous breakdown because he was making my life miserable (details irrelevant). Heck I was raised to believe that everyone thinks awful things about people the love and people they don't love and that the sign of maturity was to not say the awful thoughts in the back of your head. So when Sam gets hit with the siren's poison that makes you hate someone enough to kill them, I never thought he was awful or really believed those things most of the time. I'm also confused by the implication that Sam really believed what he said, but Dean gets a total pass on trying to chop Sam into pieces with an axe. Either both are so influenced that they don't get held responsible, or we have to say that Dean has a desire to kill Sam. For me, you can't have it both ways. I also have to note that Sam doesn't accuse Dean to his face of being weak again until Levee, when he is again chemically influenced. He probably complained to Ruby and he did express his doubts to Chuck, but the talk with Chuck wasn't blaming Dean, it was worrying about Dean and heck, I've complained to friends when my ex or my kid drives me crazy. OTOH Dean repeatedly assaults Sam physically throughout the series which makes the Dean wanting Sam physically hurt if not dead a real possibility. I know, this is a minority opinion, but I just never thought Sam was that bad in the fight in S&V and I don't think saying cruel things to someone is worse than trying to kill them. Now ignoring Dean's phone call to have sex with Dr. Cara, that was bad.

Dean's admission that he enjoyed torturing was a shock, but it never WENT anywhere. We never meet a demon that Dean tortured into becoming a demon. When he tortures Alistair, he shows regret, remorse and he resists doing it. In season 3, he and Sam are both shown torturing demons to try and find Lilith and it is no big deal, because Hey! demons. When Dean tortures demons in LIB, no one criticizes him and he feels no remorse. Sam only criticizes the mindwipe of Lisa and Ben. In Repo Man, the possessed guy says he understand why San andDean had to torture him, so he gets a pass there.

I have such problems with season four, because we are told that Dean did bad things, but they only happen off screen, while Sam's bad actions are all front and center. Even the onscreen torture of Alistair is not portrayed as a bad thing because it's Alistair. Sam gets the real nurse begging for her life in Lucifer Rising, we never see the human being that Alistair is possessing being tortured by Dean.

On a completely different note, I don't think Ben is Dean's. Lisa may have had a reason to lie to Dean when he first came back. Dean was in a dangerous life and really was a greatest night of my life one night stand and Lisa had built a life without him. But when Dean was living with them for a year, and acting as a father, I just can't come up with a reason for her not to tell Dean that Ben is or might be his. Dean was out of the life, so the danger was gone, Dean was already acting like a father, so Lisa wasn't trying to be the only parental influence Heck, Dean was mourning the loss of his only family member, Ben being his son would have helped give Dean more to hold onto. Finally, it would have given Ben a reason why this drunk, depressed guy had a place in their lives. Never, say never, but I can't come up with a good reason for Lisa to hide the fact once Dean moved in.
st50
# st50 2012-09-14 14:08
I agree with you here... Lisa could have - and would have - told Dean about Ben being his if it were true.
I also agree with people thinking and feeling bad things without saying or acting on them. This is why I don't think either of the boys is bad/wrong. They are both reluctant heroes, and they both get pushed beyond what any normal human being could stand - both physically and emotionally. So why can't they take it out on each other sometimes.
btw - you sure don't sounds like a "bad, horrible person" to me.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-09-14 15:05
Oh, I know that in reality, I'm not a bad person. I'm just human.

Mostly the discussions about S&V revolve around how horrible Sam is to say boo hoo to Dean. And then I think about all those angry thoughts I occasionally have and never say about people I love. Sam is under the influence of a monster that preys on people to make them hate the person they love enough to kill them. It removes all the controls and amps up the anger. So Sam says what he has been thinking, probably not always, but sometimes, that he has told Dean that Sam understands why Dean broke, that he doesn't blame him, and he still see Dean not coping with his past in Hell. And I understand that right or wrong, Sam interpreted this as self-pity on Dean's part. Then he gets hit with the venom that amps up his negative feelings, removes the internal censor and lets loose with his anger. Dean tells Sam that he thinks he deserves to be hunted for what he's becoming in Metamorphosis. Yes, Dean says HE can't do it, because he knows Sam, but he still calls him a monster and makes it clear that if another hunter did kill Sam, Dean wouldn't really blame him. He does this while completely sober and uninfluenced by anything other than his anger. And yet that statement, which plays into every fear that Sam has and that Dean KNOWS Sam hates and fears gets accepted because it's Dean and he's "being honest" and turns out to be right eventually. BUT AT THE TIME IT WASN'T CLEAR CUT.

The double standard bothers me, but I keep on watching, so it hasn't driven me away so far.
st50
# st50 2012-09-14 15:12
Does indeed sound like double standards. I always hurt for one brother when the other says or does something without thinking of the impact. That one scene with Dean saying Sam's a monster always hits deep. :sad:

I'm re-watching S&V at the moment. Just started, but with all the bad things people are doing & saying to the people they love, under the influence of the siren, to pick on one thing just because one of the heroes said/did it seems to me a bit strange. All these infected people were doing/saying things that are just not in character. Why do the heroes have to be vilified more than them?
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-09-14 18:56
That's so funny. I mentioned Metamorphosis in my comment before reading yours in almost the exact same way.

The boohoo did seem harsher to me than Dean trying to kill him though. But I agree I though that while Sam probably did think that way sometimes, most of the time his fears were more about worrying FOR Dean. But as the Demon blood took hold so did Sam's arrogance and belief that only he was powerful enough to do what needed to be done. (aided by Ruby telling him so). He was like someone on drugs who would have times of fear and clarity, intermixed with feeling powerful and in control.

I don't know how widespread the double standard is, but there does seem to be one with some people. But others seem to think Sam gets a pass for his actions. So I bow out of that discussion, other than to say, for me, they BOTH came off looking "bad" in season 4 and 5. Although I think human is the better word. They both did and said horrible things. But they got up and kept trying, despite both being very damaged by theirs pasts.
E
# E 2012-09-19 11:27
Hi Kelly,
This is curious to me. WHY is Sam's boo-hoo comment so much more shocking to you (and to many fans, you aren't the only one who had this reaction) than Dean trying to actually kill Sam? I have read quite a bit of commentary on S&V and the majority of fan reaction was shock that Sam could be so cruel and say such awful things, but almost nothing about the fact that first Dean holds a knife to Sam's throat (and breaks the skin) and then is just about to wield the killing blow with an ax and is ONLY stopped by Bobby at the very last second. To me Dean's actions seem far more severe as it went against everything ingrained in his personality and experience, and yet my reaction seems to be the less common one. Fans were horrified and angry that Sam would mock Dean in such a cruel way but didn't seem to even notice that Dean was one second away from erasing his little brother. I don't get it....since when do words trump deeds?
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-19 14:25
I don't know about words trump deeds or deeds trump words .But killing does trump words.
emmau
# emmau 2012-09-19 18:02
I would think killing would trump words--if it had actually happened. More accurately, if it had even been a remote possibility. I think for a lot of fans, the idea that Sam and Dean would ever really kill each other is so ludicrious it doesn't even cross their consciousness. Look at Asylum--Sure, Sam under the influence tried to shoot Dean in the face, but how do you really hold that against him? 1) it was supernaturally influenced, and 2) there was never a chance he would succeed, or else there wouldn't be a show. So occasionally Dean and Sam are put under spells and try to kill each other--it's not going to really affect them. It's the words that end up affecting the fans most in a lot of cases, though, because it's easier to take seriously. At least that's my two cents.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-20 03:29
Oh.It did not happen but saying Sam's death was not possible..well that is stretching it a bit.Sam is not immortal ,he can be killed by an axe so,I say there was a hundred percent chance of killing and it would have happened if not for Bobby.Well i also think as a fan that if killing can be excused for supernatural reasons then words should be too.
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2) there was never a chance he would succeed, or else there wouldn't be a show.
Oh no there would be a show...just where one brother succeeded in killing the other
emmau
# emmau 2012-09-20 06:47
Which, if we're truthful, is a show that would be cancelled in about 2.5 seconds. So therefore, it was never really a possibility. While yes, in universe, Dean and Sam have both been in mortal danger from each other, I think if we're honest we all can say we know neither Sam nor Dean are dying for real forever until possibly the series finale. Therefore, the spectre of death doesn't really register for a lot of fans. If it still does for you, though, that's fine.

I think the difference is that most fans feel that the hurtful words spoken under the influence in episodes like 1.11 and 4.14 had some basis in truth. We never really think that the boys would want to do each other harm, let alone kill each other, in their right minds, but they're both guilty of flinging hurtful words at each other completely sober. The boys more than likely would never have said them, and certainly not in such harsh terms, but it's entirely plausible they meant them at least partially. So I think that's why they make more of an impact.

Your mileage obviously might vary, and that's fine.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-20 08:38
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Which, if we're truthful, is a show that would be cancelled in about 2.5 seconds.
Sorry then ,I don't think so.Quote:
Therefore, the spectre of death doesn't really register for a lot of fans. If it still does for you, though, that's fine.
Yes, Death,Killing is a big thing..even for many fans as evidenced by the fans reaction to Bobby's death.
E
# E 2012-09-20 09:00
Actually, I can see where you are coming from here; at least it helps me to understand why so many fans felt that Sam's words resonated more than Deans actions, at least in this case. For me, Dean's actions were more of a shock than Sam's words, but even though Dean was a second away from killing Sam with an ax, I knew something would have to happen to stop it, and in this case it was Bobby. Do I think Dean would have killed Sam in that moment were it not for Bobby? Yes, I believe he would have, and that resonates with me, the fact that Dean wouldn't have stopped himself. The intent was there, and in that moment Dean was incapable of stopping himself, which for me is what was so shocking, much more so than just words. But at least, in the way you describe your reaction, it makes more sense to me why so many felt differently about it.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-20 03:41
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It's the words that end up affecting the fans most in a lot of cases,
If there is a chance of killing because of the very same reasons as the words won't it be unfair to give more importance to the hurtful words arisen from that reason and the hate that caused to kill because of the same reason.
Also even though i am a Sam fan i do realize if the gun was not filled with salt rounds Dean would be dead . Did it happen ? No..But it was possible.
Brynhild
# Brynhild 2012-09-19 19:44
I can answer just for myself. I was one of the people more affected by the "boo-hoo" than by the attempted murder.

The shock went both ways, anyway, because they both were so far away from their usual behaviour, and did what usually they NEVER would have done.

But the boo-hoo hit very low, emotionally speaking. Maybe because, while Dean could be very violent in his angry outbursts even when not influenced by anything but his anger (just at the staart of the season didn't he punched Sam TWO times after knowing he was using his powers and working with Ruby?), so in a sense a violent reaction is almost "expected" from him. But Sam? Sam being so deliberately and coldly cruel, using words just to hurt? So, so, so "un-Sammy".

Moreover, while Dean trying to kill Sam is placed AFTER a big fight, where anger can be amped up to the point of blind fury (and the viewer's mind is in a sense "prepared to the worst"), Sam's words are placed AT THE START of the big fight, just a few seconds after the siren's poison is spilled in his mouth, and the change is much more sudden, the viewer is not prepared to such a big change in his manners, and the heat of the fight is still to come, so the words seem more "rational", less influenced by anger, let alone blind fury. And Sam's voice, so cold and calm, does nothing but reinforce this impression.

Also, during their verbal exchange Dean doesn't "insult" Sam. He's angry, hurt, disillusioned, but his words, though already influenced by the poison, are not meant to hurt Sam as much as to ask some honesty and respect from him. While Sam's words ARE meant to hurt, so the contrast can't be more painful (and the poison seems (to the viewer) not enough to justify it, since it didn't have the same effect on Dean), from which come the greater "shock". In a way, the timing of their respective words and actions makes Sam appear like the "offender", the one who started the fight (provoking Dean's rage), without any "external" reason (so those words "MUST" be what Sam really thinks and feels about Dean, also since Dean's words WERE what he really thought about Sam).

Actually, I think BOTH Sam's boo-hoo and Dean's attempted murder are the consequence of the siren's poison: in a way, SAm tried to hurt Dean with his words, like Dean tried to hurt Sam with an axe (ok, maybe not so equal as weapons, but the goal was the same). I think the siren could not affect what they thought about each other (so Dean DID think Sam being sneaky and lying, and Sam DID think Dean being weak and even absorbed in self-pity... it's something you often think whn dealing with a depressed person who doesn't seem able to fight his/her depression) , and it couldn't affect the way they felt inside themselves (so Dean felt betrayed and let down by Sam's behaviour, and Sam felt frustrated by the fact he seemingly couldn't do anything to help Dean, and by his distrust of the way he chose to fight Lilith).

BUT it could affect what they felt toward each other. Because, how it is showed at the start of the episode, its primary goal is separating its victims from their beloved ones, making them believe that said beloved ones are in fact their enemies, the ones they have to rid off of in order to be free and happy (and to be with it, obviously). A real subjugation, like in some cults and sects. I think that's what happened to BOTH Sam and Dean, that sprung SAm's boo-hoo and Dean's attempted murder. But I don't think BOTH the boo-hoo and Dean's attempted murder were wht they really felt or wanted about and for each other.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-20 03:35
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(and the viewer's mind is in a sense "prepared to the worst")
I don't know i was not prepared for Dean killing Sam or the the other way around,were you?Violent reactions and killing are in two different leagues.
Oh and Sam tried to hurt Dean with his words and Dean tried to Kill Sam with an axe for me that is the difference.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-20 04:06
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Sam's words are placed AT THE START of the big fight,
After Dean's words and phone call.
Brynhild
# Brynhild 2012-09-20 08:29
I'm not trying to put the blame on one or another. I'm just trying to explain (to myself not less than to you all) why Sam's words hit so hard. And I'm not saying that Dean trying to kill Sam with an axe is the same thing than Sam trying to hurt Dean with his words: I'm just saying that what prompted both actions was the same feeling, the desire to hurt, to make the other suffer. BUT, because Sam's words are placed before the heat of the fight, they are at the same time less "dangerous" AND more shocking (and, for some viewers, less explainable just as the effect of the siren's poison). I've no doubt that, would have been Sam the one throwing Dean to the ground and with an axe within reach, he could have tried to kill Dean just the same (that is exactly what he did AFTER the big fight in WTLB, and I felt about him just how I felt about Dean in S&V: shocked, but in a sense I was "expecting" it, because in that case the roles were exactly reversed).

This is the usual development of a fight, especially the ones where the people involved are VERY angry with each other and VERY close to each other, and all the frustrations are let loose (often, what a surprise! domestic fights, between husbands and wives, or fathers and sons... or brothers). You start with frustrated vents, then you go to angry words, then to sarcasm and hurtful words, then to enraged screams... and if you go to phisical violence, if you can't stop before that, usually is very hard stopping in the middle, because at that point your anger build up by itself, fueled by the sheer phisical violence that you are using. Such rage is not related to the reason that caused it anymore, neither in the cause-effect sense, nor in the proportion between cause and effect. These are the cases when murder is committed after a big fight out of futile reasons, and it's real that in these cases often the murderer didn't really wanted to kill the victim, but he was acting just on the rage momentum, and he just happened to have a letal weapon within reach. In such fights and at that point you're not really trying to kill a person because of that person, you just want to let your anger explode and to destroy the source (no more "that person") of your anger and frustration.

(And Dean's phone call was harsh, yes, and it frustrated SAm to no end, and with reason. But it wasn't insulting and it wasn't meant to hurt. It was just the usual Dean-I-know-wha t-I'm-doing-and -you-don't-Dean , just more harsh, because he feared Sam being poisoned)
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-09-20 08:56
I agree with most of your points, but the reference to Madison and Ruby and Sam "banging monsters" in Dean's phone call to me read as pretty hurtful and insulting, and I find it hard to believe that Dean didn't intend it to be. Bringing up Madison like that especially, ouch.
Brynhild
# Brynhild 2012-09-20 18:54
Sorry, I didn't rememeber. Thank you for reminding me (and for giving me an excuse for rewatching the episode! ;-) )

Anyway, Dean's words were in fact hurtful and insulting, but, fact is, he often is so in his speech. He doesn't have Sam's sensitivity to other people's feelings (that's why he is and feels socially awkward, apart from picking up easy girls in bars and pubs). He often was so even with Sam, not always intentionally or being aware of hurting his feelings (he's so with Castiel, too, more than once). So his words on the phone are less "shocking" for the viewer than Sam's words, because, on the contrary, Sam was ALWAYS the sensitive one, the one who very rarely talks "dirty", the one who's always aware of other people's feelings while he speaks and of his words' effect on those feelings. He could be pissed off at Dean, he could be even MAD at him, but under normal circumstance he NEVER said so insulting and contemptous words to him. From which the viewer's "shock".

Maybe I didn't make myself clear: I'm not trying to justify one or another of the brothers, judging who was or did wrong or right, who "started the fight", who was the most insulting, or the most dangerous, or what did tthey really think or want. I was trying to answer to the question (that someone raised) about why for some viewers Sam's words were more shocking and hit lower than Dean trying to kill Sam. I'm not trying to find THEIR reasons, I'm trying to find MINES (since I was one of those viewers).

So, as I said before, I suppose that was because while Dean trying to kill Sam was put at the end of the fight, when clearly the things have gone VERY south, and such an action could be expected by the viewer (from Dean as well as from Sam, at least for me), Sam's words, or better put, his contempt in uttering them, his mocking "boo-ho" was put at the start, when the build-up of rage had just started, and the viewer didn't expect such a behaviour.

Moreso when it was a behaviour VERY "un-characteris tic" for that character, like I said before. That Sam was pissed off, that his words would be angry and harsh and hard, THAT could be expected, but NEVER, even when pissed off to no end, he would have mocked his brother's feelings (but lightly and affectionately) , so it was totally unexpected (at least by me), and so hit harder.

While Dean's hardness and insulting words, as well as his violent reaction (even if not to such "heights"), are often part of his usual behaviour and interaction (especially with Sam!), so the shock was more for the "level" to which such violence had raised, than for the behaviour in itself.

BUT (it's always better reassert the concept) I'm not saying that one was more "justified" than the other, or that one was guilty of starting the fight to which the other just "reacted", or that the behaviour of one is more "acceptable" than the other, or that Sam was really feeling so contemptuous toward Dean, or that Dean really wanted to kill Sam. Not at all. I was one of the viewers that were more shocked by Sam's words thaan by Dean's attempted murder. After thinking about it toroughly, these I think are my reasons. That's it.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-20 23:26
My reasons were these.Sam and Dean both have insulted each other playfully and during a fight so words were not as shocking,But Dean who always thought killing Sam was never an option ,trying to kill Sam came as a shock.It was a behaviour very un-characterist ic for Dean.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-20 09:01
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I've no doubt that, would have been Sam the one throwing Dean to the ground and with an axe within reach, he could have tried to kill Dean just the same
He might have or might not have.I try not to think the worst of any character unless and until it is shown.So no i don't think so .Quote:
because Sam's words are placed before the heat of the fight, they are at the same time less "dangerous
Oh yes, but Sam and Dean are different people.How they react to things are different.Sam was simmering.That is why i referenced the phone call not because Dean was harsh.Dean was harsh, but he did not trust Sam's assertions that Cara was not the Siren.Sam smashing the phone at the end gives you an indication of his state of mind.I just now saw the scene and if you see Sam's expression after he smashed the phone you will see how angry Sam was because of the phone conversation before the venom injection.Quote:
but he was acting just on the rage momentum, and he just happened to have a lethal weapon within reach.
I know that but that does not make it any less OK than the hurtful words.Sam was already simmering from his recent outburst.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-20 09:03
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I've no doubt that, would have been Sam the one throwing Dean to the ground and with an axe within reach, he could have tried to kill Dean just the same
He might have or might not have.I try not to think the worst of any character unless and until it is shown.So no i don't think so .Quote:
because Sam's words are placed before the heat of the fight, they are at the same time less "dangerous
Oh yes, but Sam and Dean are different people.How they react to things are different.Sam was simmering.That is why i referenced the phone call not because Dean was harsh.Dean was harsh, but he did not trust Sam's assertions that Cara was not the Siren.Sam smashing the phone at the end gives you an indication of his state of mind.I just now saw the scene and if you see Sam's expression after he smashed the phone you will see how angry Sam was because of the phone conversation before the venom injection.Quote:
but he was acting just on the rage momentum, and he just happened to have a lethal weapon within reach.
I know that but that does not make it any less OK than the hurtful words.Sam was already simmering from his recent outburst. This comment has been posted below too i don't know what is happening.Help. .Alice!!!!
LEAH D
# LEAH D 2012-09-20 11:56
My thoughts on S &V. Since the shows beginning the boys have had issues with each. Normal sibling issues. Dean always the quicker to heat up and even throw punches. Wrong of him, but Sam never took it to heart he was secure in his brothers love and protectiveness. Years pass and now you factor in Dad's little speech to Dean before dying. To this day that has been a quandry and the biggest fear for Dean. That his brother might turn into something inhuman. That has been put to the test a few times and Dean has never been able to kill his brother. For all his talk and bluster he is incapable of killing his brother IMO. The few times the fights have turned deadly there was also mitigating supernatural factors.

Turn to S&V. The venom magnified their already simmering anger to a mindless rage. I have no doubt, shocking as the Dean with the axe was, that if it had slipped out of his hand Sam would have picked it up and come after Dean. This is not a comment on Sam character, I just think they were both beyond any reason and control. Sam's words were hurtful and Dean coming after Sam with a weapon was horrible but after all was said and done I wasn't angry at either one. I knew Dean didn't want Sam dead and Sam no matter how weak he felt Dean was, wouldn't have flung those words at him. Anyone is capable of killing anyone in a fit of rage, it happens all the time but these guys are professional killers and in normal circumstances would know how much damage is lethal and what is a beatdown. IMO if for any reason one of the brothers ended up killing the other it would destroy them. I think Sam's words were the catalyst for Dean coming after him but neither one was in their right mind.
LEAH D
# LEAH D 2012-09-14 18:53
Hi Percysowner,
Just want to say that I believe that Dean's "assaults" on Sam during the run of the series are not an indication that he really wants to harm Sam! Dean is a hothead and lashes out sometimes. I am not defending him for doing that, it is absolutely wrong. I do feel in most instances he is not out to harm him. For the record I thought they were both jackasses in S&V, while under the influence of the siren.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-09-15 14:06
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So when Sam gets hit with the siren's poison that makes you hate someone enough to kill them, I never thought he was awful or really believed those things most of the time. I'm also confused by the implication that Sam really believed what he said, but Dean gets a total pass on trying to chop Sam into pieces with an axe. Either both are so influenced that they don't get held responsible, or we have to say that Dean has a desire to kill Sam. For me, you can't have it both ways.
I like your analysis of this. I think that the key here is that the Siren amped up negative feelings that were already inside both brothers to the point where each wanted to kill the brother. For Dean, it was the feelings of betrayal, that Sam wasn't "Sam" anymore, that he was lying to Dean, hiding things from him. And that betrayal, that belief that Sam wasn't his brother anymore, amped up to the point where Dean wanted to kill him. Likewise, Sam had been frustrated by the way his brother had been responding to his Hell-experience, not only that, but he was influenced by the demon blood, which was turning his thoughts and motivations darker than normal, so he viewed his brother as weak, and any trace of compassion was erased so that he too wanted to murder Dean. I stick by the argument that both boys meant what they said because, at the very last scene of S&V, Sam tries to tell Dean that he didn't mean what he said while under the Siren's influence. Dean brushes it off, and you can tell by his body language that he doesn't believe it - because he meant what he said to Sam.

Neither gets a "free pass", but I think the point of the episode was to show that a) Dean had changed; there was something darker about him, as he really didn't trust Sam anymore, and had a capacity to kill his brother that he didn't have in S1-3, and b) Sam had changed; there was something darker about him, as was obvious by what he said to Dean, being so cruel and un-Sam-like.

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I don't think saying cruel things to someone is worse than trying to kill them.
I totally disagree on this. Words hurt more than fists. Bruises fade, but hurtful words stick with a person, carried in their soul for a long time, sometimes forever.

Now, that doesn't mean I blame Sam more than Dean for that fight - because you're right, he was under the influence of something evil (demon blood and the Siren). But in the end, Sam's words in that episode ended being more shocking than Dean's actions, as it was meant to be, to show us (the audience) just how bad it was and keep wondering what the heck was going on.

And it's my personal opinion that you can only take the excuse of the demon blood so far. Sam knew it was wrong, that was why he hid it from Dean and lied about it in the first place. I have great sympathy for why he started - hopelessness, loneliness, nihilism after losing Dean, etc. - and I understand that he got addicted, however that doesn't make what he did any less wrong.
I feel the same about Dean torturing souls in hell. I have great sympathy for why he was there and what he suffered. I understand why he broke. But that doesn't make torturing - in any circumstance - any less wrong. And Dean knew this and took personal responsibility for his actions, as he should have.

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We never meet a demon that Dean tortured into becoming a demon. When he tortures Alistair, he shows regret, remorse and he resists doing it.
I do wish that we could meet a demon Dean tortured in Hell. But I disagree with your suggestion that Sam wasn't shown as regretting and resisting doing the things he did in S4. Throughout the entirety of S4, we saw Sam struggling with his desire for the demon blood, and the reality of it. He gave it up in "Metamorphosis." He admitted guilt/remorse in both "Monster at the End of this Book" and "Lucifer Rising." He DID resist draining the nurse in Lucifer Rising, but the voicemail from his brother pushed him over the edge. It was a metaphorical form of suicide, really. He DID show regret for his actions, during and after.

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I have such problems with season four, because we are told that Dean did bad things, but they only happen off screen, while Sam's bad actions are all front and center. Even the onscreen torture of Alistair is not portrayed as a bad thing because it's Alistair.
I have a problem with people who justify Dean's torture of Alistair and other demons just because they're "bad". That same argument is used in real life to justify torturing criminals and terrorists, and I am against it. I believe torture sadistic, and cannot be excused. I think it seriously damages not only the one being tortured, but also the torturer. It's degrading, dehumanizing, and evil. There is no good argument for it. So no, I don't believe Dean was justified in torturing Alistair. I think his soul payed dearly for that, as he anticipated it would. However, just as demons were responsible for manipulating Sam, angels were responsible for forcing Dean into that position. I do have a big problem whenever the boys are shown torturing. I didn't like that part of "Repo Man" for that reason. I wish we could go back to the S1-3 days where the boys stuck to taking the higher ground, but I also appreciate the fact that they've hardened over the years. It's just sad all around.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-09-16 02:07
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I totally disagree on this. Words hurt more than fists. Bruises fade, but hurtful words stick with a person, carried in their soul for a long time, sometimes forever.
I imagine that if someone you loved and looked up to your entire life tried to intentionally do you harm then you would also carry that in your soul for a long time, maybe forever. I imagine knowing that someone feels they have justifiable reasons to hurt you, that they hate you so much, that they feel you are so wrong and so evil they want you dead, would also stick with you.

While words might hurt, they are merely one step in showing what a person thinks and feels about you. Acting on that takes those words to the next level. However, if someone merely says something then it can be passed off as being said under the heat of the moment, be misinterpreted etc.. However, if you then take steps to try to kill someone or do them harm because of what you think about them then there’s no room for misinterpretation there and it really reinforces that this is what a person truly feels and wants to do so no, I don’t believe that words hurt more than fists. While bruises might fade, the thoughts and feelings that led to those bruises would still be there and would hurt as much, if not more, than any words. I imagine the knowledge that, in his heart of hearts, Dean wanted Sam dead and was willing to kill him, would hurt Sam just a tad.

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Sam knew it was wrong, that was why he hid it from Dean and lied about it in the first place.
Not necessarily true. It might have been part of the reason but there are parallels between this, the Dean/Amy incident, the John secret incident and the not planning on telling Sam about the deal incident. Dean’s reasons for not telling Sam on those occasions were that he wanted to protect him/time to figure things out. Could the same not apply to Sam? Dean had just come back after forty years in hell and as much as Dean denied it, Sam knew that he was tormented by it. I don’t think Sam would just go prancing up to him and say ‘Hey Dean, guess what I learned over the summer’. Why would Sam want to add that to Dean's soul. Given where he had just been, why would Sam even mention demons or bring demons around Dean? He’s not that selfish. I’m aware that the show constantly reinforces the ‘Dean wants to protect Sam’ ethos but it does run both ways. Shame might have played a part in why Sam did what he did but I certainly don’t believe it was his only reason for doing it. (Aside from that if Sam didn’t tell Dean because it was so wrong, then why did he start in the first place? He must have believed there was a degree of right in what he was doing.)

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I wish we could go back to the S1-3 days where the boys stuck to taking the higher ground,

Both Sam and Dean took the high ground in season threand it cost them everything. Had they taken the higher ground in season 5 then the place would be burning right now. Actually, had they taken the higher ground in early seasons then they wouldn’t have hunted YED. Morals are all fine and dandy until reality hits. I doubt anyone here would go out and try to break into a shop but if circumstances change and you can’t feed your children then your morals wouldn’t be long going out the window.

I dare say the ‘higher ground’ issue was preying on Sam’s mind when Ruby was making her presence known while Dean was in hell, that if had put his stupid morals and ideals to the side and worked with Ruby in season three, then he might have managed to kill the demon that held Dean’s contract and so Dean would never have gone to hell. I imagine Sam would willingly walk through sewers for eternity if it meant saving Dean.

Sam and Dean’s ‘morals’ were always a contentious issue on the show, even back in seasons 1-3 and they always will be. The very nature of what Sam and Dean do ensures that the higher ground is just as swampy as the marshes.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-09-16 03:04
Hi Tim,

Though I personally believe words are more damaging than fists, I realize that in reality they both can be equally damaging, so I get where you're coming from. For the record, I wasn't implying that Sam wasn't or shouldn't have been hurt by what Dean did or said. In fact, I was emphasizing the fact that they were both equally guilty of hurting each other.

Admittedly, I'm not quite sure what you're referring to, since I was speaking specifically to the fight in S&V, where both boys were under the influence of the Siren, and as such, I don't believe that either Sam or Dean legitimately wanted to kill each other. In S&V it was the Siren's influence that amped up their feelings to the broiling point. The words and feelings were true, just amplified, but under normal circumstances the words would have never been said and the brothers certainly wouldn't have tried to kill each other. So I don't understand the implication that Dean actually hated his brother deep down enough to kill him. He mistrusted his brother, thought his brother had changed and wasn't the same, but it was the Siren's influence that made those feelings bad enough to want to kill.

Likewise, I totally agree that the protecting goes both ways, though I think older siblings have more of that streak in them. It's only natural. And, while I don't believe shame was the only reason Sam kept the demon blood drinking from Dean, I do believe it was the biggest. I don't think Sam got into the demon blood because he thought it was 'right' - I think he gave into Ruby while Dean was dead partly out of hopelessness, and then found some purpose again when he tried to do good with it. But he still recognized that what he was trying to use for good was in itself evil, and that what he was doing was wrong. He just hoped he could make it right. He expressed as much several times throughout S4.

And I again disagree that if they had taken the high ground in S5 the world would be burning. My view of taking the high ground would have involved exorcising Ruby from the start, like Dean wanted to in S3. If Sam had used his powers that early, he may have saved Dean from Hell, but he also would have been on the same track to set Lucifer free. See, in my thinking, 'morals' means doing the right thing even if it costs you dearly - even if it costs you your life. Dean said it well in "Jus in Bello" where he said, "we do it our way...and if we go down, we go down swinging." To me, that is honorable. You don't work with demons, you banish or kill them. You don't mess with evil, you get rid of it. Every other way - every time they have manipulated the supernatural by making a deal or working with a demon, etc., it has resulted in more pain and suffering. And I think the boys have realized that, especially when Dean says, "let's not make the same mistakes all over again." And when Sam says, "it's all snake oil." They know that those choices have cost them, and the road just keeps getting darker and darker.

Do you really think if they could have a do-over, that Sam would have indulged in the demon blood? That Dean would have hesitated in killing Ruby in S3? I even wonder if Dean would have made the demon deal at all - perhaps Sam would have been in heaven. The list goes on. They probably wouldn't have lived as long, sure, but look where they are now. Everyone they know and love is dead, and they are twisted, hearts hardened by years of suffering. Don't get me wrong - these guys are my heroes. And I like my heroes flawed. I like watching them wrestle with the morality and consequences of the their choices. I'm just saying that even they recognize the costs of the decisions they've made, regardless of the good intentions or desperation that led them to make them.

And so it bothers me, for example when I see the boys torture a demon inhabiting a human for information (Repo Man) - because it used to bother them. They used to try and do exorcisms - now it seems they use the knife indiscriminatel y. And that bothers me a bit. So yeah, I disagree that taking the high ground was more costly than compromising their morals. But I understand that everyone does not see it that way.
cd28
# cd28 2012-09-16 10:49
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Do you really think if they could have a do-over, that Sam would have indulged in the demon blood? That Dean would have hesitated in killing Ruby in S3? I even wonder if Dean would have made the demon deal at all - perhaps Sam would have been in heaven.
This is an interesting discussion, because if you backtrack even further on this, the first time they compromised on killing a demon was when YED was possessing John in Devil's Trap. We had John begging Sam to take the shot, Dean who had said he would do anything for family begging Sam not to kill John, and Sam torn between the two. Sam didn't take the shot, John died anyway, and YED got away to cause more problems in season 2, including creating the scenario in which Jake kills Sam, leading to Dean selling his soul, etc.

This is interesting because this conflict goes to the heart of the show. We've been told that the Winchesters are dysfunctional because they would do anything for family, including compromising their moral convictions. Gabe told Sam in Mystery Spot that the fact that they would do anything for each was their weakness and the bad guys would use it against them.

But on the other side, when we remove the strong connection to family, what we have is RoboSam, who in Unforgiven says that family just slows you down (which sounds a lot like S&V Sam saying Dean was weak). RoboSam may have been right from a practical standpoint. He was a better hunter because he didn't flinch in killing the bad guys, even when victims got caught in the crossfire. Yes victims died, but the bad buys didn't escape to kill even more people. But do we really want RoboSam, who would kill Bobby? Also on the side of family is season 5 where the brotherly bond is what gives Sam the strength to defeat Lucifer.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-09-17 14:28
Bamboo24, I’m not sure how to reply to this post (or the post that was there) I apologise that I offended you, and the post has been deleted. Let me reassure you that wasn’t my intent (to offend). I can only react and interpret what I perceive, as do you. I felt that you insinuated things that you didn’t and I responded in kind, you felt that I insinuated things that I didn’t and you responded in kind. You took sarcasm, anger and condescension from my post and that wasn’t the spirit in which it was written so for the offense I caused you, I apologise.

Should I have told you to stop saying you love Sam? No., definitely not. I was wrong for that. However, it wasn’t meant to try and dictate what you should or should not say; just that I feel there is no need to say it. I don't think you're biased, and I doubt anyone else does either so if someone feels you (or I or anyone) are biased based on the content of our posts then that’s on them, not on us.

I didn’t feel you were being ‘unnecessaril y harsh’ on Sam in the same way that I don’t think I was trying to put ‘more blame on Dean’ in relation to that scene. However, what I posted, and how I posted it, came across as antagonistic and I was wrong to say it, so for that I apologise.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-09-17 14:53
Tim,

It's okay. Honestly, I can see how that comment I made regarding my interpretation of what you were saying could have come across the wrong way. I should have more careful in my choice of words.

I do think it's my responsibility as a communicator to be clear and to anticipate how my words will be interpreted by others, and that is why 1) I was trying to explain that I wasn't biased and 2) I take full responsibility for what I said to you as well, and also apologize for my part in this.

I'm so very humbled and glad that you responded here so that we could reconcile this, because I did thoroughly enjoy our chat for the most part. You are a very passionate and intelligent debater, and I hope that we will be able to have more discussions in the future. There are no hard feelings on my part. :)
Brynhild
# Brynhild 2012-09-17 17:44
Excuse me, but... where is my post? Was it deleted? Why? I wasn't arguing with anyone, just adding my interpetation of the situation... :sigh:
Alice
# Alice 2012-09-17 17:54
We never delete posts here Brynhild. I usually edit them or unpublish if it is spam. I saw one come through from you earlier today. I'll go into the admin area and figure out where it is residing right now!

Updated: Ouch, we are missing all posts from 6:53 am to 11:00 am this morning. Will check the logs to see what happened. In the meantime, I get emails of all posts sent and have your original post there. I'll post what you wrote back into the thread.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-09-17 18:11
Alice, I think there are several posts that got deleted. I also noticed that a post of mine that was not involved in the incident thread above, in addition to a response I gave to Brynhild's comment, were also mysteriously deleted.
Alice
# Alice 2012-09-17 22:23
I found a very catastrophic bug! If a comment up thread gets unpublished or deleted, the whole thread is getting wiped out with it! I've permitted logged in users to delete their own posts, but I've had to disable that. Even me as administrator will have to watch un-publishing comments for now. If there are comments underneath an existing comment, they are only getting edited.

You will see my best attempt below to reconstruct the missing thread. They were pulled off of moderator email notifications I've gotten (there were no trace of these comments in the database). They are in rough shape, and you'll notice the names might have a slight misspelling. That's because the system won't let me use an existing user's name unless I login as that user, and I can't easily do that. I'll try and fix them to look nicer, but in the meantime, your comments are back on record.

I do apologize and I'll make sure this doesn't happen again.
Brynhild
# Brynhild 2012-09-18 03:44
Thank you for your work, Alice, the comments are clear enough even like this. :-)
TimTheEnchanter
# TimTheEnchanter 2012-09-17 21:16
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In S&V i.....and the brothers certainly wouldn't have tried to kill each other......
Yes, and the decision to act in such a manner stemmed from what Dean was already thinking and feeling. If Dean didn’t think Sam was a monster and needed to be killed then no amount of amping would have led him to raise an axe to his brother. The Siren only amplified the desire to act in certain ways, it didn’t create it.

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Likewise, I totally agree that the protecting goes both ways, though I think older siblings have more of that streak in them. It's only natural.
Honestly, I find this to be quite unfair because it’s automatically putting Sam and Dean on unequal ground in that regard. Dean is naturally more protective because he has the older sibling streak?? I feel the decision to protect someone is precisely that, a decision, not a genetic trait based on your position in the family.

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I don't think Sam got into the demon blood because he thought it was 'right'.... He expressed as much several times throughout S4.
I don’t believe I said that Sam started drinking demon blood because he thought it was right. However, it was a way to enable him to do what he believed was right (save lives) and avenge Dean.

Look at it this way, logically, by using his powers, there was very little Sam was doing wrong. In fact it was a very right, worthy and Winchester thing to do. It tied in with Sam’s hunting side as well as his human side and would very much have appealed to Sam, who, having being possessed himself and who witnessed the death of Meg’s original host, would have been very aware of the host. I don’t believe he initially gave in to Ruby out of hopelessness but because she gave him reason to believe that he could save lives using what he was given at 6 months old. However, if you take this ‘bad’ (Sam’s natural ability) and use it to do good, then does that not make it good? Surely it’s what we choose to do with what we have that dictates how good or bad it is?

In relation to the drinking blood, Sam had already taken the first steps to that when he accepted that he had powers. He also accepted that he had demon blood in him so it’s not as if drinking demon blood would be alien to him. I think it would have been so easy for Ruby to get Sam to take the next step and do it willingly. I can nearly imagine the (possible) conversation. ‘Hey Sam, there’s this demon and rumour has it that he’s one of the ones who tortures Dean in hell. You can kill him, stop him getting his claws on Dean again but the thing is he’s strong, stronger than you can handle at the minute. I know what will help.....’. The hesitation he’d have had about drinking demon blood would have seemed very petty when weighted up against the ‘benefits’ of doing so.

I don't feel the powers in themselves were bad (oh God, ‘bad’ sound so trite and simplistic); Andy used his to prevent a ‘suicide’, Ava originally used hers to save Sam’s life and had Jake used his powers in the field of battle he’d have been a hero. Had Sam drank blood and used his powers to kill Lilith and, as he believed, ended the impending Apocalypse then and there, would we still be viewing the powers and blood the same way?

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My view of taking the high ground would have involved exorcising Ruby from the start, like Dean wanted to in S3. If Sam had used his powers that early, he may have saved Dean from Hell, but he also would have been on the same track to set Lucifer free.
Exorcising Ruby would not have saved Dean from hell, nor would it have stopped Sam’s powers being drawn out. Killing Ruby would most certainly not have prevented Lucifer from being set free. This Apocalypse was generations in the planning, it wasn’t going to be stopped by the possible death of one little demon. Had it not been Ruby then it would have been another demon, or an angel.

However, while we now know that nothing was going to stop the Apocalypse, hypothetically speaking, taking the 'low ground' and working with Ruby in season 3 might have led to Dean not going to hell (or at least not at that time) and that was all that Sam was concerned with back then. I imagine if Ruby said to Sam back in season 3 ‘Here, drink a pint of this and Dean won’t go to hell’ then Sam would have eaten the glass and all, high ground be damned.

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See, in my thinking, 'morals' means doing the right thing even if it costs you dearly - even if it costs you your life. Dean said it well in "Jus in Bello" where he said, "we do it our way...and if we go down, we go down swinging."
In Jus in Bello, Dean’s morals didn’t cost him his life; it cost the lives of everyone in the prison so his morals, as noble as they were, weren’t worth much there. Sacrificing Nancy would have been a horrific thing to do and would have scarred both Sam and Dean forever, but it would have saved the lives of everyone else in the prison. So instead of carrying the death of one person on their souls, they now carried the death of multiple people; deaths that could have been avoided if they eschewed their morals in that instance. Plus, if I may rather cynically say, as she was being slowly skinned alive by Lilith, I dare say that Nancy would have much preferred the quick, relatively painless and self sacrificial nature of the death that was originally suggested.

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To me, that is honorable. You don't work with demons, you banish or kill them. You don't mess with evil, you get rid of it...... They know that those choices have cost them, and the road just keeps getting darker and darker.
Define evil....

In relation to working with ‘honour’ and not working with demons etc, the only way to avoid doing that would be to (a) retire (because every time they go out and they kill a demon or hunt a monster, they are manipulating the supernatural and every time they use the demon knife, or perform an exorcism they are tapping into the darkside). They could also (b) stick solely to the easy salt and burns where they don’t have to eschew their morals (unless of course, the ghost is ‘good’ and is actually trying to prevent deaths ala Dexter O’Connell in Of Grave Importance). I think that type of hunt may be a bit too vanilla for Sam and Dean though.

I believe that Sam and Dean persist in working with demons in the hopes that it will have a positive outcome. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t. The next time they work with a demon I won’t feel they’ll be less honourable for doing so, but more honourable (or as honourable) for trying to do that which they believe is honourable; saving lives.

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Do you really think if they could have a do-over, that Sam would have indulged in the demon blood?
If Sam knew the whole story and if he knew that drinking demon blood was the only way of caging Lucifer and Michael then an excellent argument could be made that Sam would still have indulged in the demon blood. The blood might have made Sam angry etc but it also made Sam strong and that strength, combined with Dean, enabled Sam to (momentarily) overcome Lucifer and so end the impending Apocalypse. So honestly, if Sam knew that drinking blood would lead to Michael and Lucifer being permanently caged, then yes, I think he would do it again. I think Dean would have done the same. He’d have willingly done another 40 years in hell if it meant that Lucifer and Michael were safely penned away.

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That Dean would have hesitated in killing Ruby in S3?
Undoubtedly he would have but that would have been more emotive than anything else because killing her wouldn’t have made a damn bit of difference to the eventuality. Were Dean dead and Sam had been sold the idea of using his powers to save lives by Paris Hilton then he’d have done it.

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I even wonder if Dean would have made the demon deal at all - perhaps Sam would have been in heaven.
It’s plausible that Dean would not have made the deal if he had known that Sam was in heaven but again the Apocalypse was going to happen. It wouldn’t have been stopped had Dean not made the deal so when you consider that in the do-over scenario, then perhaps both Sam and Dean would have let the first five seasons pan out exactly as it did.

The selling the soul, and 40 years and demon blood and powers etc might have led to the Apocalypse being started by their hands but it also led to it being permanently ended by their hands, and with Lucifer and Michael in a much more secure place than they were when the whole adventure started. Had Sam or Dean made different choices back then would we be able to say the same thing?

Honestly, the only thing I think Sam might change would be going to Stanford because his presence there cost Jessica and Brady their lives. (Actually, strike that. Had Jessica not been around to catalyst Sam into embracing hunting then it would have been someone else close to him, namely John or Dean.)

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...Everyone they know and love is dead, and they are twisted, hearts hardened by years of suffering.
The only thing that would have stopped them being twisted with hearts hardened etc would have been if Mary had never made the deal and they had never been born. For the most part, it was their lineage and the circumstances of their birth that led to everyone they love dying etc, not the decisions they made or whom they worked with.
Bamboo 24
# Bamboo 24 2012-09-17 21:25
Quote:
If Dean didn’t think Sam was a monster and needed to be killed then no amount of amping would have led him to raise an axe to his brother. The Siren only amplified the desire to act in certain ways, it didn’t create it.


I still feel like you are trying to somehow insinuate that Dean hated his brother deep down, thought he was a monster, and that's why he tried to kill him under the Siren's influence. Even at that, I feel like you are trying to defend Sam while putting more blame on Dean for that scene, whereas I view the brother's as equally blameworthy there. Dean made the first move, but Sam also was trying to kill Dean. So I don't see what the point of this discussion is, really (LOL). We'll have to agree to disagree.

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Honestly, I find this to be quite unfair because it’s automatically putting Sam and Dean on unequal ground in that regard. Dean is naturally more protective because he has the older sibling streak?? I feel the decision to protect someone is precisely that, a decision, not a genetic trait based on your position in the family.


I don't think it's unfair to say that older siblings are generally, naturally more protective of their younger siblings. It's the same with parents. It's something that comes with being older than someone - you feel the inclination to look out for them. I'm not saying Sam isn't protective of Dean at all (again, I feel like you're trying to defend Sam to me - I love Sam, and I don't think I was saying anything against him). The guys can have different personalities and strengths, can't they? They aren't equal in everything, and that is OK.

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If you take this ‘bad’ (Sam’s natural ability) and use it to do good, then does that not make it good? Surely it’s what we choose to do with what we have that dictates how good or bad it is?


That's an excellent philosophical question and I appreciate your analysis here. I think I view the situation a lot like Dean did (except he was a lot harder on Sam than I would have been). I view it as slippery slope. And it DID turn out badly. I also believe that the "I'm using evil for good" line only went so far before it became an excuse. Sam lost control, because it wasn't a natural ability - it was a supernatural one, and it was given him by an evil being with evil intent - and it almost overtook him. I'm a bit more black and white when it comes to this sort of stuff I guess, but I respect your position and see where you're coming from. I also have great sympathy/empath y for Sam's S4 struggles, so please don't think I'm being unnecessarily harsh on him. I love Sam.

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Exorcising Ruby would not have saved Dean from hell, nor would it have stopped Sam’s powers being drawn out. Killing Ruby would most certainly not have prevented Lucifer from being set free. This Apocalypse was generations in the planning, it wasn’t going to be stopped by the possible death of one little demon. Had it not been Ruby then it would have been another demon, or an angel.


Well, that's kind of my point I guess. The only reason they kept Ruby around in S3 was the hope that she could help Dean. They were trusting a demon - and she was only jerking their chains. They should have known better. One of the things I appreciate about the show is that there are always consequences for the characters choices and Sam and Dean almost always take personal responsibility for those decisions. Dean made that deal knowing the consequences, and as terrible as it was, he accepted that. Giving into Ruby to save Dean would have only been playing into what the demons had wanted all along - Sam to use his powers and go 'dark side'.

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In Jus in Bello, Dean’s morals didn’t cost him his life; it cost the lives of everyone in the prison so his morals, as noble as they were, weren’t worth much there. Sacrificing Nancy would have been a horrific thing to do and would have scarred both Sam and Dean forever, but it would have saved the lives of everyone else in the prison. So instead of carrying the death of one person on their souls, they now carried the death of multiple people; deaths that could have been avoided if they eschewed their morals in that instance.


See, to me, that is frighteningly utilitarian.
That's the same argument Ruby used in that episode. Ruby's a demon. Twisted. No morals. No regard for human life. She was very accusing in that episode, trying to convince the boys it was their fault that those people died. No. Sam and Dean did the right thing there. The rest was out of their control.

Some things are just intrinsically evil. Like murder. Unacceptable in any circumstance except self-defense. Killing Nancy - a human being, a innocent child, really - even for the so-called greater good, would have been murder. That's just not okay. I wouldn't have been able to look at Dean and Sam the same way if they had done that. No way. It's cold-blooded.

I view the demon blood also as intrinsically evil.

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Define evil....


Really? I define evil as that which is depraved, immoral, wicked, dark, corrupt, the opposite of what is good, wholesome, true, moral, well-intentione d, etc. Lucifer, demons, and even some angels have been portrayed as evil on Supernatural. No demon has ever been portrayed as having any motives that were not self-serving. I think this is significant. On the show, humanity is what is good. Humanity is what they're always fighting for/protecting, both their own and the the people around them. Losing that humanity has always been portrayed as a negative thing on the show. (Which again leads me back to the argument for why drinking the demon blood was 'bad'....)

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I believe that Sam and Dean persist in working with demons in the hopes that it will have a positive outcome. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t. The next time they work with a demon I won’t feel they’ll be less honourable for doing so, but more honourable (or as honourable) for trying to do that which they believe is honourable; saving lives.


I should probably clarify on this. I don't have a problem with Sam and Dean working with a demon per se, I would have a problem with them trusting/accept ing/treating that demon as an ally, friend, or good being. That's never happened on the show (except for Ruby, before they discovered her true intent) and I don't think it ever will.

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The selling the soul, and 40 years and demon blood and powers etc might have led to the Apocalypse being started by their hands but it also led to it being permanently ended by their hands, and with Lucifer and Michael in a much more secure place than they were when the whole adventure started. Had Sam or Dean made different choices back then would we be able to say the same thing?


Very good point. Hindsight is 20/20. And of course, to be fair, we also can't say for sure that Apocalypse would still have started if they'd made different choices, considering the entire thing had been riding on them in the first place; planned to be started and ended by their hands since Adam and Eve. Without the vessels, the bloodline, participating the manipulated game heaven and hell had set up for them to play, I don't think the Apocalypse would have happened. So I'll stand by my assertion that different choices would have led to different outcomes, but only if Sam and Dean knew then what they know now.

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The only thing that would have stopped them being twisted with hearts hardened etc would have been if Mary had never made the deal and they had never been born. For the most part, it was their lineage and the circumstances of their birth that led to everyone they love dying etc, not the decisions they made or whom they worked with.


Sure. I wasn't blaming them for the deaths - I was merely pointing out that it's been a slippery slope since the beginning, and it's only seemed to get darker each season. The boys keep getting more and more mercenary. I think that's the reality of their job. Fighting evil everyday, trying to stay on top of it all. But there have been dire consequences - emotionally, mentally, spiritually - every time they've tried to harness or use the power of that evil for themselves, via a demon deal or some other arrangement.
TimTheEnchanter
# TimTheEnchanter 2012-09-17 21:31
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I'm just saying that even they recognize the costs of the decisions they've made, regardless of the good intentions or desperation that led them to make them.
I imagine that if Sam and Dean ever again have a pragmatic moment in their lives then they will realise that the ‘decisions’ they made in various scenarios were redundant because, for the most part, regardless of whatever decision they made, the consequence of it was already planned out. The only decision that Sam and Dean ever made that changed scripture was Dean’s decision to say no to Michael.

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...So yeah, I disagree that taking the high ground was more costly than compromising their morals. But I understand that everyone does not see it that way.
If I may use a hypothetical, though unfortunately real life, situation; if Sam and Dean did not torture demons or did not tap into the darkside or whatnot, and people died because of that, then do you think it would bother them less than if they tortured etc to save those lives?
Bamboo 24
# Bamboo 24 2012-09-17 21:32
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If I may use a hypothetical, though unfortunately real life, situation; if Sam and Dean did not torture demons or did not tap into the darkside or whatnot, and people died because of that, then do you think it would bother them less than if they tortured etc to save those lives?


Um...no, I don't think it would bother them less...but that's not the point. Of course, they'd be bothered either way. Again, because I view murder and torture as intrinsically evil, even when people's lives are at stake, I view murder and torture as being wrong. Saying that you're murdering and torturing to save lives - to me - is an excuse. And again, I respect that not everyone sees it that way.

I think it depends a lot on whether you believe that there is an objective, universal moral code, that some things are just wrong under any circumstances. If you don't believe this, than just about anything can be justified, given the right circumstances.
Brynchild-Brynhild
# Brynchild-Brynhild 2012-09-17 21:44
About Dean wanting (deep inside) Sam dead, I was just curious what you all think about Sam pointing a gun at Dean in "Asylum" (and that's the FIRST season!) and actually pull the trigger. That was because Sam (deep inside) wanted Dean dead?

In both cases we have a supernatural entity that works on anger, amplifying whatever negative feeling toward someone (even a loved one) up to the point that ONLY those feelings remain in the victim's mind. Pushing the anger buttons and silencing every control or inhibition, so the anger grows bigger and bigger, until anger is the only motivation for your behaviour, regardless of the reason the anger would spring from originally.

Did you ever feel such kind of anger? The one that literally blinds you? An "Hulk" type of real RAGE? Well, I did. I do, in fact. Well, maybe not so terrifying, but I also never was influnced by a vengeful spirit or a siren and had ALL my inhibitions taken away.

And I can assure you that such kind of rage, if every control is lost (and that's the case, in "Asylum" and in "Sex & Violence"), can push you to do very, very bad things, even to the ones you love. Because you don't see them anymore: you only see yourself and your anger, and the only thing you want is releasing ALL that anger.

So I don't think that neithr Sam (in Asylum) or Dean (in S&V) wanted to kill the other, not even "deep inside". Maybe the words expressed their "deep inside" anger and frustration toward the other, the negative thoughts they had about each other (we all have them about our loved ones), deprived of every ounce of pietas, patience, understanding, love and mercy that, without the supernatural influence, they have and that can rein in the anger, stop the angry words or make them more kind. But their attempts to kill the other were not them acting anymore (so were not caused by those negative feelings toward the other), but the anger itself, in the way I described above.
Bamboo 24
# Bamboo 24 2012-09-17 21:52
Quote:
In both cases we have a supernatural entity that works on anger, amplifying whatever negative feeling toward someone (even a loved one) up to the point that ONLY those feelings remain in the victim's mind. Pushing the anger buttons and silencing every control or inhibition, so the anger grows bigger and bigger, until anger is the only motivation for your behaviour, regardless of the reason the anger would spring from originally.


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So I don't think that neithr Sam (in Asylum) or Dean (in S&V) wanted to kill the other, not even "deep inside". Maybe the words expressed their "deep inside" anger and frustration toward the other, the negative thoughts they had about each other (we all have them about our loved ones), deprived of every ounce of pietas, patience, understanding, love and mercy that, without the supernatural influence, they have and that can rein in the anger, stop the angry words or make them more kind. But their attempts to kill the other were not them acting anymore (so were not caused by those negative feelings toward the other), but the anger itself, in the way I described above.


Excellent explanation, Brynchild. I love this and agree wholeheartedly. The thoughts would have been there, regardless, but it was the supernatural influence alone that made them strong enough to want to murder.
cd 28
# cd 28 2012-09-17 22:04
Quoting Brynchild-Brynhild:
About Dean wanting (deep inside) Sam dead, I was just curious what you all think about Sam pointing a gun at Dean in "Asylum" (and that's the FIRST season!) and actually pull the trigger. That was because Sam (deep inside) wanted Dean dead?

In both cases we have a supernatural entity that works on anger, amplifying whatever negative feeling toward someone (even a loved one) up to the point that ONLY those feelings remain in the victim's mind.


I think in both Sam's and Dean's cases, Dr. Cara's comment sums it up perfectly: "Haven't you ever been in a relationship where you really love somebody and still kinda wanted to bash their head in?"

Both Sam and Dean have shown repressed resentment against each other since season 1. In Dean's case, he's jealous of the attention John gave to Sam, resentful that Sam doesn't seem to appreciate him and John as much as Dean thinks he should, and resentful that he gave his life over to hunting while Sam has on occasion put hunting aside to pursue other interests like college and relationships (season 8 should be fun). Dean's resentment is shown every time he chooses to hit Sam rather than talk to him, we saw it in Dream a Little Dream of Me in season 3, and we saw it in Dean trying to kill him in S&V.

Sam resents Dean because Dean doesn't respect Sam as an equal (or is "bossy"), because Dean tries to impose his value judgments (choosing hunting over relationships) on Sam, and because Dean represses all of his issues rather than dealing with them. His frustrations came out in the form of anger in Asylum (as you pointed out), it comes out in frustrated pleas to Dean, it came out in the demon blood arc (in S&V and when he choked Dean), and it sometimes comes out in passive-aggress ive gestures like walking away or not returning Dean's call.

People have bad thoughts about people they love, including passing wishes that that person wasn't in their lives, but those are only one of many thoughts vying for attention. Under normal circumstances, the love and appreciation for the other person balances out the bad thoughts so those thoughts don't escalate to the point of violence.
Leah D
# Leah D 2012-09-17 22:06
cd28, nicely put!
Bamboo 24
# Bamboo 24 2012-09-17 22:08
Quoting cd28:
Quoting Brynchild-Brynhild:
About Dean wanting (deep inside) Sam dead, I was just curious what you all think about Sam pointing a gun at Dean in "Asylum" (and that's the FIRST season!) and actually pull the trigger. That was because Sam (deep inside) wanted Dean dead?

In both cases we have a supernatural entity that works on anger, amplifying whatever negative feeling toward someone (even a loved one) up to the point that ONLY those feelings remain in the victim's mind.


I think in both Sam's and Dean's cases, Dr. Cara's comment sums it up perfectly: "Haven't you ever been in a relationship where you really love somebody and still kinda wanted to bash their head in?"

Both Sam and Dean have shown repressed resentment against each other since season 1. In Dean's case, he's jealous of the attention John gave to Sam, resentful that Sam doesn't seem to appreciate him and John as much as Dean thinks he should, and resentful that he gave his life over to hunting while Sam has on occasion put hunting aside to pursue other interests like college and relationships (season 8 should be fun). Dean's resentment is shown every time he chooses to hit Sam rather than talk to him, we saw it in the conversation Dean had with demon-Dean in Dream a Little Dream of Me in season 3, and we saw it in Dean trying to kill him in S&V.

Sam resents Dean because Dean doesn't respect Sam as an equal (or is "bossy"), because Dean tries to impose his value judgments (choosing hunting over relationships) on Sam, and because Dean represses all of his issues rather than dealing with them. His frustrations came out in the form of anger in Asylum (as you pointed out), it comes out in frustrated pleas to Dean, it came out in the demon blood arc (in S&V and when he choked Dean), and it sometimes comes out in passive-aggress ive gestures like walking away or not returning Dean's call.

People have bad thoughts about people they love, including passing thoughts that wish that that person wasn't in their lives, but those are only one of many thoughts vying for attention. Under normal circumstances, the love and appreciation for the other person balances out the bad thoughts so those thoughts don't escalate to the point of violence.


That is a very fair and insightful analysis, cd28. Love it.
st 50
# st 50 2012-09-17 21:36
Really enjoying your discussion, Tim and Bamboo.
You are both alternately giving some great points, and you both write very compelling prose.

I love that this "little show that could" has generated such deep discussions - such really tough topics! And that, for the most part, it is carried out here in the method of debate, rather than attack.

Carry on, my friends! :-)
Leah D
# Leah D 2012-09-17 21:41
As for people who say they love both brothers, it is because if one says anything slightly negative about Sam or Dean, there is often backlash by people who lean heavily toward that character. Why can't people express how they feel about both or any character!!

(From Alice - Leah, your original post was not edited. I discovered a very bad bug in our commenting system where if a comment up thread gets unpublished or deleted, the whole thread underneath is being wiped out by the system. My response to your comment was deleted too! Since I'm rebuilding the thread and leaving out all the harsh words exchanged by request, I kept just this part of your post because I thought it was very relevant. So you did nothing wrong and I'm sorry about the system problems)
LEAD D
# LEAD D 2012-09-17 22:05
Thanks Alice, no problem!
Percys owner
# Percys owner 2012-09-17 22:02
Okay, I think I may have started the S&V discussion, so just to clarify what I said. I never thought that Dean wanted to kill Sam either deep inside or otherwise. I also don't think that Sam thought that Dean was weak in a way that was contemptuous.

The point made on S&V was
Quote:
Dean would have killed his own brother. That was shocking behavior indeed, especially from one whose entire modus operandi had always been to protect Sam. Second, and most shocking of all, were the cruel words that came out of Sam’s mouth, just a hop, skip, and jump away from Dean’s breathtaking car-side confession about Hell. “You’re too busy feeling sorry for yourself, whining about all the souls you tortured in Hell. Boo-hoo.” If it had ever been a question before, it was confirmed in this episode – whatever Sam was doing, no matter how well-intentione d, it was changing him. And not for the better. The worst part was knowing that Sam really felt that way. The Siren just brought to the surface what was already brimming underneath, proven in Dean’s words to Sam, which were just an amplification of what we all already knew he was feeling.


My point which I didn't get through well is that it DOESN'T prove how what Sam was doing was changing him for the worst. Both Sam and Dean were acting wildly out of character after being affected by the Siren. To assign Dean's actions to only being because he couldn't break from the Siren but to say that Sam's words told us that Sam was becoming "bad" (for lack of a better term) was to me having it both ways. If Dean acts unlike himself due to a supernatural being, then it's not really Dean who is unable to overcome the Siren's effects. If Sam acts differently from his normal self due to the same supernatural being, then it's because Sam is changing for the worse. My argument is I think both were being affected by the same thing and that particular fight didn't prove that Sam was changing negatively.

I also said that FOR ME, the episode did show a negative change to Sam but it happened much earlier in the episode, when he ignored Dean's phone call in order to have sex with Dr. Cara. Previously, I can't picture Sam ignoring a call from Dean while in the midst of a hunt, unless he was truly unable to. That was thrown in to be a misdirect on who the Siren was, but THAT was the OOC moment for Sam, IMHO, not being "mean to Dean" later. As I said, FOR ME, you have to judge both Sam and Dean's actions under the influence the same way. If one of them didn't really feel that way, then neither of them did. To me I can't judge Sam as truly thinking Dean was weak and then give Dean a pass for trying to kill Sam while implying Sam was a monster.
Bamboo 24
# Bamboo 24 2012-09-17 22:03
I definitely see what you're saying here. The difference in our viewpoints on this seems to stem from what we believe the Siren had control over. Because I agree - you have to judge Sam and Dean's action under the influence the same way.

IMO, the Siren didn't have any control over Sam and Dean's thoughts and words. He only had control over the feeling of rage that led them to try and kill each other, and the twisted loyalty he made them (particularly Dean) feel for him.

So, I believe both Sam and Dean really felt the way they expressed themselves in that scene. The Siren didn't put those words in their mouths or those thoughts in their heads.

So the shock was in learning what each brother really thought about the other deep down. Now, key here is that Dean never indicated he thought Sam was a monster. That full-on didn't come until "When the Levee Breaks." Here, the only thing Dean said was that he thought Sam had changed, was hiding things from him, and lying to him.
But all that was true - Sam had changed in some ways, was hiding things from Dean, and was lying to him. So, that was nothing new. The fact that Dean felt the way he did was just a foreshadowing of what was to come - it was still a long ways down the hill before he actually thought Sam was monster.

Alternatively, Sam really thought Dean was weak and whiny, that he was holding him back, and that Sam was a better hunter. And for me, the fact that Sam even thought those things was shocking, and showed that the demon blood and his relationship with Ruby was changing him in a negative way, because it made him so callous toward his brother.

What Dean said about Sam was based in truth and from a place of betrayed brotherhood. But what Sam said about Dean was based in lies, IMO, lies that had probably been fed to him by Ruby, and was from a place of prideful disdain. And I think that's the difference.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-09-18 02:39
From what I understand Dean will be hiding or lying to Sam about Benny next season.It will be interesting to see if the writers are has callous with Dean has they were with Sam in season 4 or wether they will be more careful with Dean?.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-09-18 08:22
Sharon, that's exactly the one thing that's concerning me about S8. I've never liked the brothers lying to each other.
Honestly, my vote is that Sam finds out (or even better, Dean actually tells him) early on in the season so they can deal with it and face Benny together. Nothing good ever comes out of lying to each other, so I hope by this point Sam and Dean have learnt that lesson.
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-09-18 08:41
They at least don't seem to be doing what they did with Sam in s4 and s6, and keeping the shifty behavior mysterious and backgrounded in the earlier part of the season to build suspense. Jared had five days off in the filming of the ep where Dean goes to help Benny, so I think that at least, however sympathetic or unsympathetic Dean's motives turn out to be, we'll learn early on about what he's doing and why from his own POV, rather than Sam's. And Carver suggested that our early view of either brother's behavior might be modified, so I think he's thinking that neither Dean's dealings with Benny nor Sam apparently not looking for Dean are going to be exactly what the initially seem, to us or to the other brother.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-09-18 09:02
That is probably one of the things I am the least happy about from the spoilers. It sounds like we are going to get Dean's POV on what he is doing from the get go. There will be NO indication that he perhaps "came back wrong", or is doing something shady, or doesn't have a soul. We are going to understand what is going on with Dean.

But with Sam we are going to get the "bad brother" edit from the get go. Sam gave up on Dean. Sam didn't try to stop the Leviathans. Sam didn't try to find a teen aged Kevin. We are told that possibly later on we will see the brothers' earlier actions in a different light, but for at least the early part of the season, Sam is wrong and unsympathetic again. After all, Jensen isn't getting five days off so we can see what happened to Sam because what happens to Sam and how he feels about it always, always is unimportant to the writers.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-18 11:00
I should not have read this comment..why do they most of the times get it wrong with Sam .Now it seems again I am going to get the same..I really hope this is all my paranoia not what is actually going to happen.
They did it properly with Cas and looks like the same is going to go to Dean why not Sam.
[ i sound like a broken gramaphone record to myself as i always come back to this]
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-09-18 11:12
I should not have read this comment..why do they most of the times get it wrong with Sam .Now it seems again I am going to get the same..I really hope this is all my paranoia not what is actually going to happen.
They did it properly with Cas and looks like the same is going to go to Dean why not Sam.
[ i sound like a broken gramaphone record to myself as i always come back to this]

Why not with Sam? lack of interest , too use to writing him for the plot ?.There could be a number of reasons.
I never thought that even with a new showrunner we would get a massive sea change in how they write Sam to how they write Dean but we may get more pov but considering Purgatory doesnt involve Sam it is fairly easy to write episodes focusing on that and Sam being light in those .
E
# E 2012-09-18 18:49
Actually, Jensen DID get a number of days off just before Jared did. Cliff said on his twitter that he was with Jensen and Daneel on their boat for several days while Jared was filming. It looks like each J has had his days filming AND his days off.
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-09-18 18:56
They both had significant time off in the course of the filming of 8.4, right before the Benny ep. 8.4 is focused on other characters and light on both Winchesters.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-18 08:45
Quote:
if the writers are as callous with Dean has they were with Sam in season 4
I really really hope so..but i am 99% sure it is going to be the opposite
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-09-18 09:02
I too am expecting sympathy for Dean and none for Sam.
emmau
# emmau 2012-09-18 18:35
I think that becomes a philosophical question--do you want show to learn from its mistakes and do better, or do you just hope they stick it to your less favorite brother because you perceive they stuck it to yours?

Since Sam's being regifted the domestic storyline, should Dean fans want them to do better by Sam this time around or should they hope for the storyline to be as colossal a failure as it was in S6? Do Sam fans hope that Dean fans get the plotline that they wanted while Dean fans hope Sam gets the emotional storyline they wanted, or should both sides hope the other finds out the grass actually isn't greener on the other side when it crashes and burns?

It's interesting to see what different reactions are. Nevertheless, I imagine there will be fans providing praise and scorn for both boys, no matter what happens.
LEAD D
# LEAD D 2012-09-18 19:05
Emmau,
Good points & the last sentence-so true.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-19 03:12
I would like if Sam gets anything like S06 atleast he will not be blamed by Dean for not searching for him.If i have Sam doubting Dean,Telling Dean to do what he wants and Dean rebelling going to do his thing with Benny,Dean getting the story line and Sam getting the POV,Dean blaming Sam for not looking it sounds sweet..It is not about grass being greener or not but the wish to see how the grass is actually on the other side..Also Sam is being gifted the domestic storyline not regifted i think.I as a Sam fan hope Dean fans get the plot line focus that they have always wanted but through Sam's POV like how i got Sam's story through or because of Dean...I am telling again i don't care if the grass is brown and dead or green and lush i just am curious...
emmau
# emmau 2012-09-19 06:56
To be technical, Dean still did catch heat from some corners of fandom after 6.1 for going to barbeques and playing golf while Sam was in hell, as well as being widely mocked on screen. Which only goes to show that some fans are going to attack no matter what, if that's their mindset. But I do join in you in hoping that any question about Sam searching for Dean is quickly laid to rest, much like Jared did at Vancon when he stated that that particular spoiler had been misinterpreted from Comic Con.

I think Dean fans could also agree that they'd like to see the grass on the other side re: having a mytharc plotline. Sam fans deserve the view of the POV side. I was just referring to the fact that it seems some fans not only want their favorite to experience the good side of the fence but for their nonfavorite to experience the brown, dead side. I find it curious. If I misunderstood "I hope Dean is treated as callously", I apologize.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-20 03:45
Quote:
To be technical, Dean still did catch heat from some corners of fandom
Was it like the hellfire that Sam got from the fans during season 4.Believe me i never want Dean to get such a treatment from fans but as i have said earlier the aftertaste is still lingering.
emmau
# emmau 2012-09-20 06:51
And if it is, it is, and you're entitled to any bitter feelings you have. My point is merely that Sam and Dean both catch fair and unfair heat from different corners of fandom. I don't think it's a contest to see which boy has it the worst, or at least it shouldn't be in my opinion.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-09-19 09:17
We will not get Dean's story through Sam . They wont suddenly make Sam the pov character .
The mytharc for Sam restricted his pov and at times made it non-existant it will not be the same with Dean .I just want Sam's feelings on Sam and his life and everything that his life has been and who he is because Dean going to Purgatory doesnt change Sam's history .

I not really into the grass is greener on the other side of the fence because it is just has hard to mow just give Sam a fair go .
cd28
# cd28 2012-09-19 06:07
I don't think it does anyone any good for either Sam or Dean's storyline to be a colossal failure, but what I need to happen to make it through this season is for Sam to have enough meat on his storyline so that there's an equal balance in the focus between Sam and Dean. I don't want to have to sit through about 10 episodes focused on what Dean is going through before we get a glimpse of what Sam is going through again.
emmau
# emmau 2012-09-19 06:50
I can definitely agree with that. I don't see how anyone could argue with wanting Sam to have a meat and POV in his storyline, any more than I could see how anyone could argue against Dean having the same. Balance would definitely be a welcome change.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-20 03:47
I too agree. I don't see how anyone could argue with wanting Dean to have a meat and POV in his storyline, any more than I could see how anyone could argue against Sam having the same. Balance would definitely be a welcome change and long time coming.
cd28
# cd28 2012-09-18 07:24
Quote:

What Dean said about Sam was based in truth and from a place of betrayed brotherhood. But what Sam said about Dean was based in lies, IMO, lies that had probably been fed to him by Ruby, and was from a place of prideful disdain. And I think that's the difference.
Isn't it possible that a part of Sam always saw some weakness in Dean's season 1 conviction to unconditionally follow his father rather than breaking away and making his own decisions (as Sam had done), and in his season 3 fear of taking a chance and seeing if the demon blood powers could be used as a weapon to save himself and in season 4 to stop the Apocalypse? And when Sam said that Dean came back from Hell weakened, wasn't there some truth to that?

Along the same lines, isn't Dean's tendency to still want to protect Sam and make decisions for Sam, even as adults, a sign that he sees himself as stronger than Sam? And wasn't Dean's justification for lying to Sam about Amy that he didn't think Sam could handle the truth in his weakened post-Hell state?
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-09-18 08:56
Quote:
Isn't it possible that a part of Sam always saw some weakness in Dean's season 1 conviction to unconditionally follow his father rather than breaking away and making his own decisions (as Sam had done), and in his season 3 fear of taking a chance and seeing if the demon blood powers could be used as a weapon to save himself and in season 4 to stop the Apocalypse? And when Sam said that Dean came back from Hell weakened, wasn't there some truth to that?

Along the same lines, isn't Dean's tendency to still want to protect Sam and make decisions for Sam, even as adults, a sign that he sees himself as stronger than Sam? And wasn't Dean's justification for lying to Sam about Amy that he didn't think Sam could handle the truth in his weakened post-Hell state?
Very good points, cd28. I'm inclined to agree with you.

I'd never thought Sam was referring to Dean's fear of Sam using the powers when he called Dean weak and scared in that scene. That's a very interesting and entirely likely angle. I'd always thought he was associating the weakness and fear with Dean's Hell experience, which was IMO cruel and untrue. I'm still not sure that your interpretation is entirely correct given the words and context of Sam's speech in S&V, but it's certainly something I'll think about.

I also still doubt that Sam's purpose in lying and hiding things from Dean was solely to protect him. In fact, I think both brothers use the "I was trying to protect you" line as an excuse to justify their wrong actions/mistake s - Dean, especially, has hid behind that one a lot.
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-09-18 09:17
There was a really interesting snippet from Ben Edlund regarding the s8 Dean spoilers about why Sam and Dean lie to each other, tracing it back to the way John taught and modeled behavior for them. I don't think it's exactly that Dean hides behind protective lying as an excuse, at least not that he's fully aware of doing so. But John coopted him into the model of lying to Sam to protect him from the truth very early, when they concealed hunting from Sam. Not Dean's fault, since Dean was just a kid and couldn't be expected to question John's judgment at that point, but it did set up a pattern that I think Dean has found hard to shake, and not just with Sam. I see a very similar thing going on in the memory wipe of Lisa and Ben. Removing truth from people's minds is a radical form of lying to them, and it's a very similar thing, keeping part of people's formative experience from them as though that were protective rather than an undermining of their own autonomy and agency in processing their own experience.

But it's true that Dean isn't a child following his father's example any more, so I would like to see him moving beyond the protective model in s8 and seeing what is wrong with it, even though I think he's sincerely stuck in that pattern of thought rather than using it to mask other motives.
E
# E 2012-09-18 19:08
That's a great point etheldred. Add to this John Winchester's tendency to not tell either son what he was doing half the time in the name of 'protecting them.' It was this "need to know crap" (I think that's what Sam called it) that was one of the lynch pins in provoking Sam to finally leave for school. Both sons had a childhood of lies, misinformation, and deception. It's so ingrained in them it's probably hard for them to break out of it, especially Dean, because I am not sure he ever saw any of this as wrong, where Sam did. (although, that didn't stop him lying to Jessica...hmmm) .
cd28
# cd28 2012-09-18 09:28
I'm drawing the connection between Sam's thoughts about Dean being weak and Dean's reluctance to use the powers from a couple of scenes. First is in Lazarus Rising, when Sam wants to go after the demons they encounter in the cafe, but Dean backs off. Sam says he's been taking on a lot more than those recently (although we don't know it at the time, it's because he's stronger from the demon blood), but Dean says something like, "Not now. The smarter brother is back."

Second scene is Sam's conversation with his "mother" in When the Levee Breaks, and the mother of course is part of Sam's subconscious. They're discussing Sam's powers, how they are evil, and Mom tells Sam that he needs to use his powers to go after Lilith because Dean is weak. Dean locking Sam up in the panic room (rather letting Sam fight Lilith) is evidence of that.

I don't think Sam ever judged Dean's pain from his Hell experience harshly. He just recognized that Dean had come back weakened - that he had lost his confidence - and Sam wanted to take on more responsibility in fighting Lilith, but Dean wouldn't let him do that.

I agree that just about every time a brother lies to the other, the lie can be traced back to some guilt and shame. In Sam's case in season 4, I think his big source of shame was that he was drinking blood, which is what a lot of monsters do. He believed what he was doing was right and necessary, but he was also very afraid that the blood was turning him into a monster.
cd28
# cd28 2012-09-18 09:59
Adding on to my previous comment, there's a pattern throughout season 4 where Sam wants to aggressively confront demons and Lilith, but Dean holds back. Sam wants to use his powers against Sam Hein, but Dean is against it. Sam wants to confront Lilith in the Monster at the End of the Book, but Dean wants to run. I think that was a big part of what was behind Sam's thought that Dean was weak. Sam was pumped on his new feeling of power and Dean's confidence was shaken in Hell.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-09-18 10:15
Quote:
Adding on to my previous comment, there's a pattern throughout season 4 where Sam wants to aggressively confront demons and Lilith, but Dean holds back. Sam wants to use his powers against Sam Hein, but Dean is against it. Sam wants to confront Lilith in the Monster at the End of the Book, but Dean wants to run. I think that was a big part of what was behind Sam's thought that Dean was weak. Sam was pumped on his new feeling of power and Dean's confidence was shaken in Hell.
I agree. I also think it was due to their different views of morality though. Dean's has always been very black and white. There's a right and a wrong. He doesn't want Sam using the powers because they're evil and risky. He believes in going after the Supernatural the old fashioned way. Whereas Sam operates in shades of gray, and had always tried to get his brother to see those shades, with little success.
cd28
# cd28 2012-09-18 10:42
I think the black and white viewpoint may be part of why Dean was against Sam using his demon powers, but I also think Dean is more likely to take chances with his own safety than with Sam's. What Dean was most afraid of was that he would lose his brother - Sam would turn into a monster. If Dean had these powers, he would probably take his chances and see what benefit he could get out of the powers. He would care less if lost his own soul than if he failed in his "job" to protect Sam and let Sam turn into a monster. Dean also trusts his own strength more than he trusts Sam's. Sam's POV in this would be that since this was Sam's soul at stake, this call should be Sam's to make, not Dean's.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-09-18 10:08
cd28,

That first one is an excellent connection. I did notice that in "Lazarus Rising" Dean seemed less reckless than usual. He wanted to stay in the panic room rather than fighting off the ghosts. However, after that initial episode I saw no other evidence that Dean had changed. Perhaps that is a mistake on the writers' part, who knows. I also think it's valid that Sam viewed Dean's 'black and white' moral convictions about not using Supernatural powers to hunt as a form of weakness. We saw evidence of that as early as S3's "Jus in Bello."

I don't think the second connection is as strong, however, as that came after S&V. That being said, I didn't view Dean's locking Sam in the panic room to detox as 'weakness'. I thought he was doing what he had to in order to get a handle on the situation. He was scared - though I suppose fear can be viewed as 'weakness'. But what was the alternative?

Quote:
I don't think Sam ever judged Dean's pain from his Hell experience harshly. He just recognized that Dean had come back weakened - that he had lost his confidence - and Sam wanted to take on more responsibility in fighting Lilith, but Dean wouldn't let him do that.
That's fair. I could see how the frustration from that would make Sam feel resentful, which would lead to the cruel words he spewed in S&V.

Quote:
In Sam's case in season 4, I think his big source of shame was that he was drinking blood, which is what a lot of monsters do. He believed what he was doing was right and necessary, but he was also very afraid that the blood was turning him into a monster.
I think he believed what he was doing was necessary. I think Sam viewed it as sacrificing his soul the same way his brother did. But I think he knew it was wrong - maybe not initially, but eventually. In "Monster at the End of this Book" he admits as much to Chuck, saying he wished he could stop. In "WTLB" he tells Dean he's doing what needs to be done, even as Dean insists that it's wrong. Then in "Lucifer Rising" Sam admits his brother was right to say the things he did in light of what Sam was doing, and that he feared what he'd become. He was pretty fatalistic. All that to say that what may be necessary may not be right, and I think Sam understood that.
cd28
# cd28 2012-09-18 10:56
I do think that Dean tended to be more cautious throughout the season, especially in regards to Sam and Lilith. In most cases the differences between how Dean was in that season and in previous seasons were subtle. The scene in which the effects of Hell were shown more clearly was in the end of On the Head of the Pin, in the conversation between Cas and Dean. Dean's self-confidence had clearly been shaken by what had happened in Hell.

I disagree that the character writing in When the Levee Breaks was not very relevant because the episode came later. Both episodes were from the second half of season 4 and not that far apart, so they should be consistent in what was going on with the characters. The point that was hinted at in S&V (that Sam thought Dean was weak) was explored a little deeper in When the Levee Breaks.

I don't think Dean locking Sam up in the panic room was a sign of weakness either, but I think Sam thought it was.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-18 08:12
What Dean said to Sam was not based on truth , it was what he thought, what Dean said to Sam later turned out to be right .
He might not have thought Sam was a monster but he sure did want to hunt sam if he was not related and Siren did just that removed everything Dean felt to Sam except the anger and resentment and all other feelings towards Sam.
[this is not what Sam thought but what i thought: Sam might have been wrong in many ways but he was right in saying Dean was weak.Dean simply was not strong enough to kill Lilith (even Sam without Demon blood was not strong enough)].Quote:
Sam had changed in some ways, was hiding things from Dean, and was lying to him.
Quote:
So, that was nothing new.
don't these two statements contradict one another..i.e: if there was nothing new how did Dean know Sam had changed...
another point is it wrong for Sam to think he is a better hunter than Dean....What Sam said to Dean was also not based on truth because it was based on the Dean he saw after his return from hell
why is it if Dean thinks it becomes foreshadowing for the future ? I don't think Dean became an all knowing entity when i was not looking,Did he?
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-09-18 09:42
Quote:
He might not have thought Sam was a monster but he sure did want to hunt sam if he was not related
This is just my personal opinion, and perhaps I'm reading too much of myself into this scene but, Dean said, "If I didn't know you, I would want to hunt you - and so would other hunters." I didn't take that as Dean saying he'd literally want to hunt Sam if they weren't related. I took that as a fear tactic, plain an simple. Dean was trying to open Sam's eyes to the reality of the situation, scare him into giving up the demon blood. And you could tell by the look on his face in that scene that what Dean said affected Sam that way. It's like a parent trying to scare their kids into not doing something dangerous, or trying to knock some sense into them - tough love. I'm not saying Dean was right, just that I understand it.

Quote:
Sam might have been wrong in many ways but he was right in saying Dean was weak.Dean simply was not strong enough to kill Lilith (even Sam without Demon blood was not strong enough
I think you're right. When Sam said, "you're too weak to go after her" - that was true.

Quote:
if there was nothing new how did Dean know Sam had changed...
When I said "that was nothing new" I was referring to the fact that what Dean thought about Sam was unsurprising, because we (the audience) all new that something was up with Sam, and that he was keeping things from Dean.

That's also why I said that what Dean said was based in truth - because at the time, Sam was lying to him, hiding things from him, and in that sense, he had changed from the Sam Dean once knew.

Quote:
is it wrong for Sam to think he is a better hunter than Dean.
I don't think it's wrong for Sam to think he's a better hunter than Dean, per se, no. It's even arguably true.

Quote:
why is it if Dean thinks it becomes foreshadowing for the future ? I don't think Dean became an all knowing entity when i was not looking,Did he?
I didn't mean or imply that Dean was all knowing, nor that "if Dean thinks it, it becomes foreshadowing for the future." I said, "The fact that Dean felt the way he did was just a foreshadowing of what was to come - it was still a long ways down the hill before he actually thought Sam was monster." I was responding to a comment made that in that scene in S&V, Dean deep down thought his brother was a monster. I don't think that Dean truly thought that until that fight in "WTLB." And in that sense, S&V was just a taste - a foreshadowing - of the kind of anger and resentment that would culminate in "WTLB."
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-18 10:49
Quote:
It's like a parent trying to scare their kids into not doing something dangerous, or trying to knock some sense into them - tough love.
I did not find this in the scene ..for me it was like something which comes out of a person when he is very very angry, something which he never would have said in a normal circumstance because he knows there is something more and he feels something more. In this case Dean may for a second think that about Sam but the next moment he knows Sam and that knowing tempers or negates this raw statement if he were not angry. He was angry then and was more angry when the Siren provoked him.
Quote:
Quote: if there was nothing new how did Dean know Sam had changed... When I said "that was nothing new" I was referring to the fact that what Dean thought about Sam was unsurprising, because we (the audience) all new that something was up with Sam, and that he was keeping things from Dean. That's also why I said that what Dean said was based in truth - because at the time, Sam was lying to him, hiding things from him, and in that sense, he had changed from the Sam Dean once knew.
For me Sam lying to Dean was not something new and Sam was without Dean for 4 months ,He has done some things when Dean was not there it is expected there are things which Sam has not yet told Dean.When Dean was resurrected whatever Sam was doing became redundant or more precisely it made Sam's revenge for most part redundant.Telling his newly resurrected brother about this who is more of a black and white guy should not be easy at least that is what i think.Quote:
Dean deep down thought his brother was a monster.
Even i too think the Same and that the Siren brought it to forefront including all other issues and same with Sam the venom brought his issues the ones on surface as well as the ones deep down to surface.
st50
# st50 2012-09-14 15:30
OK, on repeat viewing, I took that scene as two brothers trying to rile each other up before a fight. Both were saying unforgivable things... Things they knew would push the others buttons. There was some truth in them, but, given a less intense moment, both would be able to see where the truth stopped, and the pushing began.

I guess that's why I had to go back and watch it over again. It didn't seem all that out of place or shocking at the time. Just my opinion, having watched brothers who were looking for a fight before.
st50
# st50 2012-09-14 15:31
The shock was in the idea that they'd actually continue on as far as killing each other.
Brksndunngirl
# Brksndunngirl 2012-09-14 16:58
I love the scenes that you picked. The one where Dean has Lisa and Ben forget who he was was the most heartwrenching episodes for me. Because here he was, doing a very self sacrificing thing, and it killed because he knew they would never have the memories they shared but he would. I liked Lisa and Ben in the storyline. It made sense, it was funny and sad at times and Lisa was bad ass enough to pull it off. Great picks!
LEAH D
# LEAH D 2012-09-14 18:24
RE:#7 It was a little shocking, I admit. But it was hard for me to feel a whole lot of sympathy for hell souls. They had to be evil or they wouldn't be there. Also Dean, after having been ripped apart for 40 yrs, would have been insanely angry.
RE:#6 Sams face got a little manical there, I thought (wrongly) that he was going to go off the rails in a big way.
RE#4 Hard one to watch!! At the end when they both say that things are ok, you know that things are gonna get ugly.
RE:#3 Ouch! Love Dean dearly but that sucked. Here's hoping that Sam retrieved it and will return it when the time is right. Perhaps when Dean gets some zest for life back.
RE:#2 Awful for Sam to realise how long he has been manipulated. As a viewer I like suprises from the past to crop up.
RE: #1 I always loved the Lisa/Ben storyline (in the minority, I know). I hoped that he could have both hunting and the family that he longs for. I still hope that Ben turns out to be his son and after the tragic loss of his mother (sorry Lisa) Dean goes to reunite with him at the series end. I know the J's want to go out in a blaze of glory but I have a hard time with that concept no matter how appropriate it might be.
Amy
# Amy 2012-09-14 18:36
The thing is if Dean reunites with BEN he will first have to tell Ben who he is and then how Dean CHOSE to first wipe his and Lisa's memory without their knowledge or consent and then abandon them.

That is if Ben hasn't somehow recovered his own memories and fostered all the same bitterness and anger that Dean still harbors for John...and he was never abandoned by John to th eextgent Dean has abandoned Ben.

I have no sympathy for Dean. He stole Lisa's free will away. Excluding Lisa from making a choice about her own life (and her sons) was incredibly self serving and selfish of Dean.
LEAH D
# LEAH D 2012-09-14 19:15
Hi Amy, I respect your viewpoint. I just didn't see it as a selfish act. I thought he was trying to return them to their previous existence before he brought all that pain into their lives. Also I realise that he would have a lot of explaining to do. Like I said, I know I'm in the minority but there it is.
Amy
# Amy 2012-09-14 21:24
Hi Leah, I respect your viewpoint as well. geuss it all boils down to J. Carvers' "perception."

It just wasn't Deans place to decide for Lisa. It was HER pain to own and decide how to move on with it. Dean was messing around with the natural order AGAIN. Taking away Lisa and Bens choices and erasing their memory also erases all the good he brought into their lives. Biological or not, Dean was Ben's father. The only father he knew. He taught and instilled life lessons to Ben. In their first episode Dean gave Ben the confidence to stand up for himself.

I empathise with Dean but for me, i feel it was a massive betrayal of Lisa and bens' love and trust.
LEAH D
# LEAH D 2012-09-14 22:02
Amy, I didn't think it was RIGHT, I agree on that point. I think in his mind though, he wasn't coming from a selfish place. He was doing what he thought was going to give them their life back. I don't feel he abandoned them. Just removed himself from their lives and erased the bad stuff that he felt he brought into their lives. He was the one most pained by it all because he loved them. Just my perspective, of course.
Amy
# Amy 2012-09-15 17:10
It smacks too much IMO of Dean playing God.

We'll have to agree our perspectives disagree. :)
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-09-14 19:15
That's harsh. Yes, Dean erasing Lisa and Ben's memories without their knowledge and consent was a wrong thing to do, a violation of their autonomy and a decision Dean had no right to make. But, like many terrible decisions characters have made on Spn, it was also made with motives that weren't evil, and out of a place of deep emotional damage.

Dean (however confused and illogical his thinking there) thought that he was undoing the damage that his presence in their lives had caused. We already know from You Can't Handle The Truth and Mannequin that Dean thought of himself as a killer and a monster who wasn't fitted for the kind of life Lisa and Ben offered. He's also been borderline suicidal at several points in canon. Trying to fix people when he felt responsible for harm that had come to them by erasing himself from their minds was in part, I think, a metaphorically suicidal gesture.

It was a wrong decision both morally and practically, and it was certainly determined by Dean's issues rather than Lisa and Ben's rights, but I don't think it was selfish or self-serving. Like a few other of Dean's bad decisions, it was wrong not in being self-serving but in being sacrificial in a damaging way.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-09-14 19:29
I agree. He was definitely wrong to do that without their permission, but I think he was TRYING to set things right. As he saw it he'd done a lot of damage to them and was trying to give them back the life they had before he came into the picture.
Amy
# Amy 2012-09-15 17:54
But was it really damaging to Dean? I keep wondering if Dean, after warning Sam not to speak of Lisa and Ben again under penalty of getting a beat down, had his own memory erased of THEM? It would explain who they never once ever again affected him in any way.

I mean Sam's life with Jess, his love for her had a ripple affect throughout the series for him. Once the mind wiping episode happened (can't for the life of me think of the title) its like that life never happened for Dean. That life ceased to affect him in any way. And why not even knowing Lisa and Ben were alive in the word was a reason for him to keep going. I kept wondering why...if he loved them...they wern't enough of a reason to save the world. (they would have ended up Leviathon chow no matter what) When in S5 he was making deals to make sure they would be protected during the apocolypse.

Now...nothing. Which means if thats true, and even if not, Lisa and Dean are destined to be end game. In the hospital Lisa would have thrown herself at him given enough time, she was practically salavitating over a complete stranger. Or maybe its because she still has sense memories. A part of her will always respond to Dean, will always recognise the love she has for him. And maybe the same goes for Dean.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-09-15 18:38
Amy,

I think this can be explained multiple ways.

First, Sam and Dean are two different people, who deal with things in very different ways. Sam is the type to talk about things, even if it's hard. Dean is the type to never mention the stuff that hurts him - he wants to ignore it, bury it, etc.

Second, Jess was brought up throughout the series because it was a seminal event. The spark that lit the fire for Sam, so to speak. Her death was a watershed moment in the series. Lisa and Ben were less so.

Third, Dean's life with Lisa and Ben, and especially the loss of that life, definitely continued to affect Dean throughout S7, and IMO was one of the many reasons for his drinking and depression. It was obviously damaging, just in more subtle ways. He'd given up on his hope of happiness, of being a father, when he erased those memories. He resigned himself to being nothing but "a killer" for the rest of his life, basically. And Lisa and Ben had been brought up different times, as late as mid-season 7, though only once by Dean himself. But the general aura was that Dean was deeply affected and damaged by what he'd done. Sam and Bobby both knew it.

Fourth, as to why knowing Lisa and Ben were out there wasn't enough to keep Dean going in S7 - well, I think to appreciate this one has to understand depression. I mean, that's like asking why people who are loved, people who have family and friends who love and need them, commit suicide? It can't be explained other than that it's a mental illness. Apply that to Dean's fictional situation, and I think it's easy to see that why it "wasn't enough" for him to keep going, or to want to save the world.
LEAH D
# LEAH D 2012-09-15 19:49
Bamboo24, nice comment. You articulated very well how I feel Dean handles his issues and how it relates to his depression last season. Whether he verbalizes it or not(usually not) he carrries it around as added weight on his already overburdened conscience. He even knew what he did to Lisa & Ben was somehow wrong but I think in his mind it was necessary to spare them more hurt and pain.
E
# E 2012-09-18 19:46
Actually, Dean wiping Lisa and Ben's memory was a lot like when he killed Amy last season, and even when he sold his soul for Sam way back in Season 2. Dean is often sacrificing parts of himself for what he believes is the greater good. I think that his motives are pure and formed from a desire to really help and improve things. In this way, I find his motivations unselfish. However, Dean does not ask the people directly involved in the situations what they might want or need; he's not up front with them and that's a problem. In this way, Dean is misguided. If Dean had asked Lisa, would you like me to remove all traces of "the best year of you life" so that you don't have to suffer any more, I am sure she would have said "hell no." Dean is not narcissistic enough to have a God complex, but for some reason he seems to think that his decisions for other people are the right ones, without asking the actual people involved, and this is a problem IMO. No one wants to be dictated to as though they were perpetually 5 years old and incapable of making their own decisions. For this reason, I disagreed with Dean's decision to wipe away all Lisa and Ben's memories without consulting them. How presumptuous of him. Does it make them happier? Maybe, at least superficially, but it also makes them completely vulnerable to the supernatural, who still likely know of them and their potential as a bargaining chip here Dean is concerned, and he's stollen from them all the knowledge that they gained in knowing him. If they are attacked by supernatural baddies in the future, they could have used information from when he was with them to fight the baddies off, but now? They are sitting ducks. By making these decisions for other people, he actually compounds the situations even further. Two wrongs don't make a right, they make a mess.
LEAD D
# LEAD D 2012-09-18 20:19
I can't disagree with any of your comment. Even though I've expressed that I don't think he did it out of selfish motives, I also think it was wrong. One thing Dean is however is bullheaded. Sometimes that serves him well, other times not so much.

The issue of them being vulnerable is real. Yesterday someone asked how the mindwipe made them safer. My feeling is that wasn't his primary goal. However the possibility that someone may use them as pawns in the future still exists.
LEAH D
# LEAH D 2012-09-18 20:52
I somehow keep posting under LEAD but my name is Leah. What a dork!
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-09-15 14:15
Quote:
Excluding Lisa from making a choice about her own life (and her sons) was incredibly self serving and selfish of Dean.
I would say it was incredibly self-sacrificin g and unselfish of Dean. He was trying to right a wrong. He was trying to give them their normal lives back. And it killed him to do it. I definitely see where you're coming from though. It's the same was Sam felt after he found out. But Dean is and will always be a protector. He does what he thinks is best for those around him, right or wrong, regardless of the consequences. It's both an asset and a flaw. I think it's fair to argue that he was wrong to do it, but I don't think it's fair to have no sympathy for the guy.
Amy
# Amy 2012-09-18 13:01
So Dean is the only one to decide what is right or wrong for EVERYONE? No one else is allowed to have knowledge or make decisions about their own lives?

It just seems that Dean is allowed to do whatever he wants to whomever and whenever and as much as he wants to and he cane cite 'his issues' and he was 'just protecting' everyone.


It just smacks of a person with the emotional maturity of a 4 yr old. He thinks only what HE wants and if someone tries to point out what he is doing he throws a tantrum (threatening to slug Sam for bringing up how wrong it is to take someone elses free will away). And then continues to do what he wants.

I would have sympathy if Dean would learn and UNDERSTAND he can't keep doing this, its not his place to decide whats best for others, it IS wrong (and it is often harmful for others) and actually try to change.
E
# E 2012-09-19 12:05
This is a good point. I feel that Dean should begin to learn that he can't decide everything for other people. I felt that he had taken a huge step in that direction too when he decided to support Sam's plan to jump into the pit in Swan Song. Sam's decision went against what Dean felt was right, against what Dean wanted to do, and yet he supported Sam anyway. That's part of the reason the Amy debacle made me so mad in season 6. It's like Dean had reverted back to his "I know best" ways sneaking off to kill Amy behind Sam's back. The killing of Amy isn't what even bothered me, it was the lying and the sneaking so that Dean could follow his "I know best" imperative without consulting Sam. To me this was a major back-step for Dean as a character, and I found it frustrating and annoying. The fact the the fandom seemed to side mostly with Dean on this made me even more cranky.
Rachel marie
# Rachel marie 2012-11-02 15:11
Quote:
So Dean is the only one to decide what is right or wrong for EVERYONE? No one else is allowed to have knowledge or make decisions about their own lives?

It just seems that Dean is allowed to do whatever he wants to whomever and whenever and as much as he wants to and he cane cite 'his issues' and he was 'just protecting' everyone.


It just smacks of a person with the emotional maturity of a 4 yr old. He thinks only what HE wants and if someone tries to point out what he is doing he throws a tantrum (threatening to slug Sam for bringing up how wrong it is to take someone elses free will away). And then continues to do what he wants.

I would have sympathy if Dean would learn and UNDERSTAND he can't keep doing this, its not his place to decide whats best for others, it IS wrong (and it is often harmful for others) and actually try to change.

I dont hate dean but things like that annoy me to.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-11-02 18:27
I feel that's pretty harsh. Yes he has a tendency to be bossy and think his way it the right way. But the emotional level of a 4 year-old, Really? While it does annoy me that the show has a tendency to make Dean's decision the right decision more often than not. But the character has been better about not being so bossy the last few seasons. Amy was a glaring exception, but it was the shows choice not the characters to make Sam agree with later and say he right.

They both been though so much I don't think he shouldn't be judge that harshly. And it's not like Sam has always been the picture of maturity either. They both have been heroes many times over and they both done completely dumbasses at times. Dean has reverted a little after his time in purgatory, but that is to be expected considering the warlike mentality he came back with.

I would like to see the writers move away from Dean is always right line of thought, but beating up on the character is not going to make that anymore likely.
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-09-14 18:42
"But it was hard for me to feel a whole lot of sympathy for hell souls. They had to be evil or they wouldn't be there."


John was in hell. He may not have been one of the world's great parents, but evil enough to deserve torture? Dean was in hell. The guy in Crossroad Blues who sold his soul to save his wife's life would have been in hell except for the last minute save. Sam would have, if his attempt to exchange his soul for Dean's after 3.16 had worked out. Bela may not have been a good person, but she was also an abuse victim who sold her soul as a child when she had no other recourse against her abuser.

It simply isn't true in Supernatural's universe that people go to hell because they are evil. All the people we know of who have gone to hell have gone because they made a deal, which is certainly always a bad decision, but not always one that is made for evil or unsympathetic motives. Even the more selfish deals, like the guy who wanted to be a great musician, that may have been a much less sympathetic choice, to sell his soul for that, but I still don't think it makes him so evil he's deserving of torture.

Don't get me wrong, breaking under thirty years of torture is not something for which Dean or anyone should ever be blamed, but the reason I don't think Dean is a bad person for that isn't because I believe the souls he tortured deserved what they got, any more than Dean did.
LEAH D
# LEAH D 2012-09-14 19:34
Point taken, Etheldred. I guess not all souls in SPN hell are evil. I need to be a little more PC when talking about souls in hell in the future :)
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-09-15 14:19
Quote:
It simply isn't true in Supernatural's universe that people go to hell because they are evil.
Yes. And this point is driven even further home when thinking about how Crowley and Castiel bartered over souls in S6. In SPN, it seems almost entirely up to chance where one goes after death, unless one makes a deal.
LEAH D
# LEAH D 2012-09-14 20:07
Meant to say Sam's face got a little maniacal!
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-17 11:40
Really liked your article and these are my thoughts..
10. “Fortunate Son”
Same reasons as you gave.A very surprising twist.
9. “Papa Was a Rollin’ Stone”
This was shocking.I never thought that the Adam we saw was a ghoul..surprisi ng , brilliant and heart breaking.
8. “Wheel in the Sky Keeps On Turnin’”
Destroying Bobby's home..It was shocking because till it happened i never thought it would happen.
7. “Lonely is the Night”
It was heart breaking,It made Dean relatable in a way Sam never was for his use of Demon blood.
6. “Dirty Deeds”
Okay shocked there and i knew they were going to go dark with Sam.
5. “Very Superstitious”
John's secret, Dean's burden and how they kept the secret from Sam was all shocking.
4. “Sweet Emotion”
Sam's boo hoo and Dean going to kill Sam, well ,really really shocking.
3. “End of the Line”
well it was heart breaking in Sam's perspective but it was never shown it mattered to Dean so more heart breaking.
2. “Love Hurts”
this was something akin to Mary's sorry to Sam.
1. “Heartache Tonight”
For me it was scene where Dean erases their memories which was more shocking ..because if i were a demon my first target would have been Lisa and Ben after their memory wipe
bye
st50
# st50 2012-09-17 11:46
I never did understand the memory wipe. It seemed to me that targeting Lisa and Ben was all about how it would effect Dean. His pain, as I see it, wouldn't depend on whether they remembered him so much as how he felt about them, which wasn't changed. So how did that keep them safe? Why wouldn't the demons still target them??
LEAD D
# LEAD D 2012-09-17 13:31
I don't think the memory wipe was about keeping them safe. I feel that he saw Lisa basically killed and Ben severely tramatized and he wanted to erase their trama and pain and the knowledge of the awful things that are out there. Giving them a chance at a normal existance. There is no reason to believe they might not still be targeted. That may yet happen. I could be wrong, but that is how I took it.
st50
# st50 2012-09-17 13:52
Thanks Lead D!
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-19 03:22
I am 100% sure Lisa and Ben are safe. Why? because it was Dean who did the deciding.
Sometimes i really wish they are safe and when i am feeling bitter i really wish they are not safe
emmau
# emmau 2012-09-19 07:00
I'm 100% sure that Lisa and Ben are safe because I thought that the mindwipe's purpose was to wipe Lisa and Ben from the story completely. After 6.1, it seemed show couldn't shake them loose quickly enough, except for periodic angst fests like 6.14 and 6.21 when show remembed Dean was supposed to have a storyline of his own. Which makes you wonder why show went there at all, but there you go. I doubt any demon or evil will go after them, because I don't think show has any desire to reintroduce those characters into the landscape of show again.
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-09-19 07:27
I think some of the discussion here relating the memory wipe to Dean's psychology, his history, and his issues makes it clear that for some viewers, at least, the Lisa and Ben storyline, including the mindwipe, was an examination of long-standing issues with Dean.

The writers could easily have left Lisa and Ben with Mannequin, which wrote them out of the story quite effectively. The fact that they chose to do 6.21 culminating in the mindwipe instead suggests to me that the problem of Dean's guilt complex, his sacrificial and suicidal tendencies, his tendency to make decisions for others out of protectiveness, and the actions those drive him to were important matters for them. Dean's struggle with hunting (a killer, not a father in the Veritas ep, someone unfit to sit at the table with Lisa and Ben in Mannequin, carried on into a hunter, not a person, with specific reference to Lisa and Ben in 7.9) was intimately related to the domestic part of his s6 storyline.

I think they did plenty wrong with that story (partly in not developing Lisa's perspective convincingly, even more in ultimately not dealing in s7 with the issues they had raised in s6), but it's not the case that everyone thought that part of Dean's storyline was a throwaway with no point. For me, s6 was one of the strongest Dean seasons, which was part of what made the fizzling of Dean's development in the later parts of s7 so disappointing.

I do agree that Lisa and Ben will probably not end up menaced by supernatural forces in some future episode, though, because I agree with others that the mindwipe thing wasn't primarily about the practical issue of their safety in Dean's head, and it's Dean's head the storyline primarily relates to.

(I actually find it an interesting insight into Dean that so much of his protectiveness doesn't take the form of excessive guarding of people's physical safety: he doesn't try to hold Sam back from taking his own risks when it comes to the ordinary dangers of hunting, for instance, and his djinn dream in 6.1 showed that his greatest fear about Ben wasn't that he would be injured or killed by the supernatural, but that he would be contaminated by it. It's more about innocence and experience than about safety and danger for Dean, I think.)
E
# E 2012-09-19 13:07
Hi Etheldred, You and I think along the same lines. I really agree with you on this post. I too don't feel that the Lisa and Ben storyline was a throw away or insignificant. I really liked Lisa as a character, and I felt that their attempt to create a life together was genuine and heartfelt. Lisa knew the truth about Dean's life, which was a lot more than Jessica knew about Sam. And I also feel that the ultimate failure of that relationship did culminate in the depression arc we saw for Dean in season 7 (as unsatisfying a storyline as that was). I just wish that TPTB had referenced that a little more to give Dean's story more weight. It could have been as simple and quick as showing Dean scrolling through some pictures on his phone from time to time, or listening to old messages from Lisa in his voice mail. Season 6 and 7 were not as good at providing these little filler details as previous seasons were, and the lack of them diminished the overall stories IMHO. Sam and Dean don't exist in the vacuum of the current storyline and references to issues from their past are necessary and satisfying.

And I just wanted to ask emmau why you feel that Dean didn't have a storyline of his own in Season 6? I felt that he had all of the storyline. It's true that the bulk of it related to Sam in terms of the actual plot, but all of the perspective, insight, emotional content was Dean's. We as the audience did not know what was going on with Sam, so we had to experience him through Dean, find out what was wrong with him through Dean, and take Deans perspective for how we were to feel about it. This coupled by how Dean related to the return of his Grandfather, the lingering issues of Lisa and Ben, Dean's issues with Castiel and the Mother of All means that Dean WAS the story. As a matter of fact Jensen has commented any number of times on how utterly exhausted he was during season 6 because he worked so much and carried so much of the show that season. Maybe you didn't like Dean's storyline (or story lines) but that is not the same as not having one as it's pretty clear, he did.
emmau
# emmau 2012-09-19 18:05
Oh, no, I don't mean everyone thinks Dean's S6 storyline was a throwaway. I do, but that's just my opinion. Others may interpret that differently. I didn't see any development for Dean in S6, but I'm glad for those who do.

I do find the insight about Dean's fear of the psychological damage of the life more than the physical to be interesting, too.
emmau
# emmau 2012-09-19 18:10
Sorry, E, I didn't see your post before the other one. I don't think storyline is the same as POV, that's why, I guess. Yes, Dean had a lot of emotion and POV, but to me, that isn't the same as a storyline. I wanted more than experiencing Sam through Dean's eyes. Jensen being on screen doesn't to me indicate that he had a personal storyline that show really cared about. I wanted something for Dean about Dean. Lisa and Ben were that, but I didn't feel like show cared about them at all and shunted them off to the side almost immediately. I truly saw no point in 6.21, except to up the angst and assure fans that we'd never see them again. I don't feel Dean gained anything from that year as a character. Others obviously see it differently, and that's fine.

And no, I don't mean that Dean didn't have a storyline. He did. For me, it was a poor one, but that doesn't mean others couldn't enjoy it, obviously. Mileage always vary. I apologize, because I do try to avoid absolutes, like Dean didn't have a story or Sam had no POV. I didn't think I did say he didn't have a story, but that's clearly the impression I gave, and for that, I apologize.
cd28
# cd28 2012-09-19 19:11
I never thought the Lisa/Ben story was supposed to be about Lisa/Dean, I always thought it was about Ben/Dean. It was supposed to be the latest chapter in the father issues storyline, which Dean has always been central to, and its purpose was to show Dean struggling not to repeat the mistakes of his father when put in a father role himself. I read that the actor who plays Ben wasn't as available as they had hoped in season 6, so my guess is that's why the storyline came to an abrupt end. They had never intended to write a love story about Dean/Lisa. If they had, the would have built it up more early on. I disliked 6.21, but I think the point was to build toward Dean's emotional decline. He was not only cutting Lisa and Ben out his life in that episode, he was also back to torturing demons.

I don't see season 6 being Sam's storyline. I see Sam's soullessness as one of a series of problems that were Dean's to fix, as was Crowley, Eve, and then finally Cas - who we discovered was behind all of the earlier problems. Think of Dean's story more as Alice in Alice in Wonderland. He finds himself in a strange world where everyone is acting strangely, and the season is about discovering what is going on, and then stop the big disaster in the end (ok, not exactly Alice in Wonderland, but you get my point). That may not be the story you would have picked, but it's a respectable storyline for any character of any show. As for why this isn't Sam's storyline, for starters the soullessness was only relevant in the first half of the season. In the second, he got one episode to reflect on it and a few scenes in the final to confront RoboSam, but the soullessness chapter, and how it affected Sam, was barely ever touched upon once it stopped being Dean's problem to fix. If the soulless arc had been Sam's story, and not a part of Dean's, then we would have seen flashes of Sam in the cage, struggling to get out. We would have seen soulless Sam's POV at some point. We would have seen more flashbacks of Sam realizing what he had done. At the very least, we would have found out how Sam became soulless in the first place. And this all would have led to some kind of story climax for Sam, not just for Dean (Appointment in Samarra).
emmau
# emmau 2012-09-19 19:35
It would make sense that the actor's lack of availability might have altered the Ben/Dean storyline. On the other hand, where would they really have gone with that? Neither the PTB nor Dean would have let Ben into the backseat, so ultimately I just think much of anything was every supposed to come of that. As for torturing demons, we saw Dean torturing the earworm monster inside Bobby in 6.16. I don't think that was much of a turning point for Dean if was intended to be, because he'd done it before and they did nothing with it after.

I'm not sure I'll ever agree that soulless Sam isn't Sam's storyline. It was about him, and it was about the differences between Sam and his soulless counterpart. While Sam might not have been able to reflect on it as much as some fans would like, he did reflect on it, both in soulless form and in his regular form. It was the center of the first half, where soulless Sam did reflect and change his mind about soullessness and its meaning (many times). Two episodes heavily focused on the aftermath of soullessness from Sam's POV--Unforgiven and the finale. So I'm not sure how Sam suddenly has no ownership or agency in that storyline, because to me he did.

I do think we saw it through Dean's point of view a lot and it was laid at Dean's feet to fix, but he really (to me) weren't as many episodes fixing it as there were episodes of Dean watching soulless Sam (and his many, many reincarnations- -killer, comic relief, etc) and talking about how he needed to get Sam back. In the second half, he was almost completely cut out of the conversation, other than telling Sam he needed to keep the wall. I can agree it could be perceived as a storyline for Dean, but you're right--I was weary of Dean's storyline being about Sam and/or saving Sam so that didn't work for me. I wanted something for Dean about Dean, and for me Ben/Lisa was supposed to be that and it was quite underwhelming.

I think we got about as much Sam POV about season 6 as we did Dean action on his own storyline, and I'll say that neither was particularly satisfying.
cd28
# cd28 2012-09-19 20:42
I didn't ever expect to see Ben in the back of the Impala. The arc obviously had to have an end. Hunting and parenting don't mix, we learned that with John. I just through the arc might have seemed to have made more sense if the Dean/Ben relationship was explored a little deeper.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the Sam part. To me the story belongs to the character who we see affected by whatever is going on. In this case, the effect shown was on Dean. I'd say the same thing about the Lisa and Ben storyline. I consider that Dean's story as well, rather than arguing that it was Lisa's story, or Ben's story.
emmau
# emmau 2012-09-19 20:49
Yeah, I'm going to have to agree to disagree, too, because the idea that the soulless Sam arc had no affect on Sam (both in soulless and real reincarnation) just doesn't compute at all. But that's okay, because we all see things differently.

As for Ben/Dean, they might have meant to explore them a little more, but again, how? Where were they going to go with that, if not in the hunting realm? Dean obviously wasn't going to stay in the domestic realm. That's why, to me, it wasn't a good storyline--it didn't really fit with the show's formula and they really didn't have anywhere to go with it.
emmau
# emmau 2012-09-19 20:50
Compute for me, I mean. Obviously your mileage varies, and that's fine.
cd28
# cd28 2012-09-19 21:16
Of course the soullessness would have had a big effect on Sam, but we didn't see much of it because it wasn't the story the writers were telling. Just like I'm sure Dean had a big effect on Lisa's life, but we didn't see it because it wasn't the story the writers were telling.

As for the Dean/Ben story, I don't think a story has to be long-term for it to have an impact. I loved John's story from season 1, but that doesn't mean it was a bad idea to kill him off when they did. I'm not sure I'd still appreciate the character so much if he was still hunting with them. Some stories were meant to end after they've run their course.
emmau
# emmau 2012-09-19 21:37
I'll have to continue to disagree, then, because I very much think we saw how the soulless storyline affected Sam both sans and with soul. Yes, we also saw how it affected Dean, but if that's the criteria for making it a certain character's storyline I don't see how Sam can be excluded. As I pointed out, we did hear soulless Sam talk about the impact of his soul and his wavering feelings about getting it back vs. not, and we did see two episodes that focused on Sam and the aftermath of being resouled. So again, mileage varies.

I can agree that a storyline doesn't have to be long to have an impact. Maybe the PTB had something different planned for Lisa/Ben, but we'll never know. I still maintain that given the inevitability of the ending of the Ben/Lisa storyline, I'm not sure what impact show ever planned on them having on Dean other than leaving him depressed and suffering from crippling self-esteem. Since that after pretty much matched the before, I'm of the opinion it was never going to have a big impact on Dean or the season, which is another reason why we didn't see it much. Again, your mileage may vary.
cd28
# cd28 2012-09-20 09:50
RoboSam was the monster of the first half of the season. Just about every monster gets at least a few lines to explain motive and intent. And that's what RoboSam got. He told Dean he doesn't care about him anymore, but recognizes that something may be wrong, so he agrees to go along with getting his soul back. They also needed to explain how RoboSam went from the monster who was cooperating, to the monster who was holding an ax or knife, or whatever it was, to Bobby, so we got the Cas warning about the soul damage and RoboSam's reacting to it. When I said I would like to have seen more of RoboSam's POV, I was thinking of making a connection to Sam. They could have had a flashback episode to when RoboSam, remembering all of Sam's memories about family, realizes he is different and decides not to go to Dean. They could have made an effort to show why RoboSam might be different than say, RoboAsh (or any other character), using the opportunity to tell us more about Sam's character. There's only so much deep exploration you can do of character who has no emotions or conscience, but that's why we needed more of this filtered through the real Sam's POV.

As for the second half of the season, I really liked Unforgiven, but Sam's exploration of that part of his life was abruptly halted by the threat of Hell memories. It really needed a Part II, in which Sam is allowed to fully remember and deal with it. The 10 minutes or so in the finale when Sam is confronting RoboSam was well done, but it should have led somewhere. Sam integrated this killer and his memories into his personality. You would think there would have been some followup the following season to show the effect of this, or Sam confronting some of what he had done. Instead, RoboSam was never even mentioned in all of season 7.

I feel like the writers put in the bare minimum they thought they could get away with for there not to be gaping holes in the narrative, but I'd hardly describe this as any kind of meaningful exploration of Sam's time as RoboSam from Sam's POV.
amy
# amy 2012-09-20 11:29
RoboSam was the monster of the first half of the season. Just about every monster gets at least a few lines to explain motive and intent. And that's what RoboSam got. He told Dean he doesn't care about him anymore, but recognizes that something may be wrong, so he agrees to go along with getting his soul back. They also needed to explain how RoboSam went from the monster who was cooperating, to the monster who was holding an ax or knife, or whatever it was, to Bobby, so we got the Cas warning about the soul damage and RoboSam's reacting to it. When I said I would like to have seen more of RoboSam's POV, I was thinking of making a connection to Sam.
I keep thinking about why RoboSam didn't want his soul back and among many reasons...well he has Sam's memories. But the clincher of why Robo decided a soul would get in the way...all anyone has to do is see The Fairie episode.

Dean tells Robo he has to have empathy and I quote "and all that wussified crap."

So, Dean unknowingly just told RoboSam that Sam with a soul is not only a weak person, but a weak hunter. And a big part of the reason is Sam has empathy and empathy comes with having a soul. Soul + empaathy = weak

Robo digs around in Sam's memories and comes up with a ton of similar remarks Dean has said over the years, referencing Sam being weak and/or referencing Sam's empathy as a weakness (even in the so callled brotherly teasing). Robo didn't have emotions (usually faking them) so he wouldn't understand them. But he had a plethora of memories from which to look at and examine. But with the ability to understand emotions he could ONLY look at them in an analytical way.

Combine all the memories where Dean over the years calling Sam weak. yes a lot of them were Dean teasing as a sibling would but Robo wouldn't be able to understand the context. He wouldn't be able to understand the emotions behind the words.

ALL of that - if looking at it from a strictly analytical view - would give RoboSam clear evidence that having a soul would make him weak. A weak human. A weak hunter.

Also....he has all of Sam' memories which proided a plethora of evidence that having a soul makes one weak. Sam showed Jake mercy. Result: Sam is killed. keep looking at the following seasons from Robo Sam's viewpoint and he will determine that Sam's failures as a brother and hunter were rooted in his emotions and thus his soul

So i could see exactly why RoboSam wouldn't want his soul back.

Just wish the writers had put more emphasis on it instead of focusing on the whole Human soul is merely a power source/monetary object for Angels and Demons.

and maybe the writers actually having Dean really think about what a soul is and what he was saying to Robo was effecting his thought processes. and maybe it would have helped Dean see how much Sam loved and respected HIM. And valued him.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-09-20 11:45
I think with Robo Sam it was less about exploring the character but more about this is Robo Sam this is how he is acting and this is how it impacts Dean.

Outside of Unforgiven the writers didnt display a desire to deal with the psychological and emotional effects on Sam. They came up with the wall to avoid that very thing IMO .
cd28
# cd28 2012-09-20 12:04
I agree with this 100%.
cd28
# cd28 2012-09-20 12:02
I think you're putting too much importance on RoboSam caring what Dean thought. The point of RoboSam was that he didn't care what Dean thought. To me the answer to this one is simple - Cas, Meg, and Crowley all agreed that the soul would be a mess after the torture it received from Lucifer and it would likely leave Sam a drooling mess on the floor. Stopping Dean from re-ensouling him was a matter of self-preservation.

To me a more interesting question is why RoboSam went after Bobby rather than going directly to the source and killing Dean in his sleep. We can guess reasons, but there's really nothing in the story to explain it.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-09-21 08:47
cd28, If I remember correctly, Balthazar told RoboSam that killing Bobby (or at least his father/father figure) would scar his vessel. The impression I got from that was it meant he could never be resouled, so he went after Bobby. I imagined that by his logic, that would've have been a more permanent solution, rather than killing Dean. You never know, someone else might've tried the same thing in Dean's absence...or at least that's how I understood it.
emmau
# emmau 2012-09-19 18:30
Maybe that's what it is about S6--"Let's look at Dean's guilt complex, his sacrifical/suic idal tendencies, his protectiveness, struggles with hunting, etc." This isn't ground we haven't covered before, and we really didn't get anything new from it. Dean had all of these things before, most for many, many seasons. We didn't really learn anything new, and Dean didn't do anything differently than he's always done. To me, that's not development nor is it a storyline--it's Dean's personality. Which we already knew. The only thing that's changed is, as you said, Dean is more concerned with the psychological than the physical. But hasn't that been true since 4.21, when Dean wanted Sam to remain Sam even if it killed him? So it's more pronounced, but still not something we haven't seen from Dean before.

Again, however, I accept others see this differently. Okay, I think I'm done now.
E
# E 2012-09-20 19:58
Hi Emmau, I tend to agree more with CD28 in the "where is Sam's POV" argument, but I do agree with you whole heartedly, that Dean hasn't really been given any new ground to cover lately, and particularly in seasons 6 and 7. Not only is it old ground, he's kind of backed up some, reverting to his more dictatorial ways again; and this reversal wasn't really explained very well, so it came off as annoying rather than insightful. Perhaps its not so much an issue of storyline, but of character development; and Dean's character hasn't seen much meaningful development in a while.

Although my leaning is in the Sam direction (I can't help it!!! Ah Sammy) I am really looking forward to Dean's character being propelled out of the rut he's been in for two years (or more.) I hope his purgatory storyline is juicy and tension filled and I hope he grows as a character and that the growth sticks. Morose Dean isn't much fun. And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, a little more Sam insight wouldn't hurt. We always know how Dean feels about Sam, but what does Sam feel about Dean? Since Sam rarely gets to talk to anyone other than Dean we never get to hear how he feels because he's not going to tell Dean. Know what I mean? I wonder if this new love interest for Sam may in part help with this issue. We find out what Dean feels when he interacts with other characters, so maybe, maybe "Amelia" will be this for Sam for the first time in ever.
emmau
# emmau 2012-09-20 20:58
Hey, I'd never argue that Sam's gotten his fair share of POV. I just don't believe he's gotten zero, anymore than I can say Dean's had zero storyline. I maintain that they have both been done wrong, just in different ways. Honestly, I don't see Dean as dictatorial, because Sam fights just as much for what he thinks is right and wins his share of arguments as well (let's be fair--both Sam and Dean are stubborn, bossy at times, and determined to get their way). I'll agree, however, that they've pretty much kept him in the same place for a long time now. I think that's where I differ on S6 and S7--aside from being more depressed, I don't see where Dean is any different than he's been since . . . I don't know, S4? In some ways, S2? So yea, there's been almost no meaningful character development and not much story for Dean in the last two year, just as Sam has been shorted POV and detailed dealings with his issues (that does not mean there's been zero dealing with them, however).

I think we can agree that it would be great to see Dean propelled out of his PTB-enforced rut. Long overdue. To be far, I don't think either Sam or Dean has been any fun for years now. How can they be? Show has done nothing but heap misery and misfortune upon them for seasons now without respite. All they do is suffer and suffer some more. That's one of the reasons I'm looking forward to the idea that the boys are going to have a proactive mission, rather than a reactive one for the first time in years.

Again, though, I'd agree that more Sam insight would be a great thing. I have no idea how Sam feels about Dean at this point. I mean, I'm pretty sure I know, but show is consistent in having Dean act or voice that Sam continues to be his priority number one. I'd love for Sam to be allowed to do the same. If Amelia can help with any of that, then I'll be waving pompoms. I'd love for that character to be used to reveal new sides of Sam, in contrast to the Lisa/Ben storyline which only revealed what we have known about Dean for years. So in that, we definitely agree, even if I lean more Dean than Sam.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-20 23:41
I see Dean as dictatorial, because Sam fights so much for what he thinks is right and wins his share of arguments .Sam is stubborn that is why i know he can take care of Dean being stubborn and Bossy.Quote:
I think we can agree that it would be great to see Dean propelled out of his PTB-enforced rut. Long overdue.
In full agreement here
emmau
# emmau 2012-09-21 07:37
I don't see the difference between Dean's wanting his own way stubbornness and Sam's wanting his own way stubbornness. They're obviously both fighting for what they think is right. They both to boss each other around--Dean pulls the big brother card and Sam pulls the little brother/"Well, I'm going to do it no matter what so if you want to stay together you'll go with it" card. Dean is a bossy older brother. Sam is a bossy control freak a la John.

I think it'd be nice to have both boys propelled out of their usual story ruts (Dean is depressed/What' s wrong with Sam), and I do hope that show follows through with that.
emmau
# emmau 2012-09-21 07:38
They both try to boss each other around--sorry.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-21 09:06
Quote:
I don't see the difference between Dean's wanting his own way stubbornness and Sam's wanting his own way stubbornness.
I was talking about bossiness which is different from stubbornness as you have your self writtenQuote:
"Well, I'm going to do it no matter what so if you want to stay together you'll go with it"
This is stubbornness which is what Sam does.Bossiness is " I am doing this and you are also going to do this .Why? because i said so."Which is Dean's card which he has played often.Dean is more of a Bossy and Sam is more of stubborn .Control freak not both of them.
emmau
# emmau 2012-09-21 18:19
I'll agree to disagree. I see both Sam as having their bossy moments as well as their stubborn moments. Sam has said, "We're doing this, Dean. Period." Dean has tried to persuade Sam to do things his way. But if you choose to see them as only one or the other, rather than multifaceted, that's your view.
emmau
# emmau 2012-09-21 18:21
Both Sam and Dean. Drat.
cd28
# cd28 2012-09-21 18:42
Dean routinely snaps orders at Sam, but Sam does not usually do the same to Dean. Sam usually goes along with it without argument, but sometimes he says no. Refusing to do something someone told you to do, or stating a strong objection to something isn't being bossy, it's choosing not to be a doormat.

The exception to this was during the RoboSam period, when their roles were reversed. When RoboSam started giving Dean orders in The Third Man, Dean was so shocked he responded, "Who died and made you boss?"
emmau
# emmau 2012-09-21 18:56
I'm sorry, I again have to agree to disagree. Yes, we've seen Dean be bossy. No, standing up for yourself isn't being bossy. That isn't at all what I'm referring to. In my opinion, show has, in non-RoboSam episodes, shown Sam laying down orders, just like John (just like Dean). For example, last year when Dean wanted to concentrate on the Leviathan and objected to taking cases, Sam several times told him that they were going to take the cases, and Dean acquiesced. Sam has his times to be bossy, and Dean has his times to be bossy.

I will concede that, as older brother, Dean is probably moreso than Sam, but the idea the Dean regularly acts as Sam's drill sergeant 1) doesn't match up with what I see in onsceen, and 2) doesn't fit with my view of Sam's character. I see Sam as a strong man with very definite standards and ideas, and I don't see him as someone who goes along without argument, honestly, not about things he cares about. I think that argument paints Sam as a much more passive person than the person I tend to see onscreen. He's not a waif that Dean pushes around--he's a partner in a give-and-take. At least that's how I view things.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-22 01:55
Quote:
I think that argument paints Sam as a much more passive
No.When Dean gives orders there are two ways Sam can react 1) Sam can be the passive person which you say the argument suggests 2)be the stubborn person which the show has shown him to be.Whatever Sam's reaction is Dean is still bossy.Sam did not order Dean to take up any case he asked Dean to concentrate on cases Same way like when Dean asked Sam to not do anything when Sam came to know what his father told to Dean before dying.Quote:
1) doesn't match up with what I see in onsceen,
Then we will have to agree to disagree as i have seen it from season1.
LEAH D
# LEAH D 2012-09-21 19:01
emmau & cd28 - the truth is Dean can be bossy at times. When they were younger he kind of had to be. He was in charge of Sam often. Now that they are older Sam chafes at that and sometimes defies Dean. However, to be fair, in the last couple of years Dean has tried to treat Sam as an equal much more. My opinion of course.
emmau
# emmau 2012-09-21 19:15
I fully agree that Dean can be bossy. I'm not arguing the point. I do agree that Dean has been trying to treat Sam more as an equal as well. He's not 100% successful, but I think he is trying.

I just think Sam has his bossy times as well. That's all I'm saying.
LEAH D
# LEAH D 2012-09-21 19:50
Sure, emmau I got what you were saying. I was just saying why I thought he was. Sam of course can be bossy also, more this year as Dean didn't seem to have an abundance of enthusium for the hunt. Stubborness aplenty on both parts.
LEAH D
# LEAH D 2012-09-21 19:55
Enthusiasm for the hunt
emmau
# emmau 2012-09-21 20:00
Thanks, Leah D. I think we're pretty much in agreement then. Maybe it's time for me to bow out of this one. I've said my piece, it's been received and understood, and what else can I ask for?

I still love bossy, stubborn Dean and stubborn, bossy Sam.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-22 01:23
I think you misunderstood I did notQuote:
see them as only one or the other, rather than multifaceted,
I have told in my commentQuote:
Dean is more of a Bossy and Sam is more of stubborn .
not Dean is Bossy and Sam is stubborn.Quote:
Dean has tried to persuade Sam to do things his way.
Yes but Sam has not told Dean (other than soulless Sam)" Do this because i said so "ever.Dean trying to persuade Sam does not make Sam bossy but it makes Sam stubborn or simply not in agreement with Dean.I see a clear demarcation between Bossy and Stubborn but if you do not see it then it is your view.
emmau
# emmau 2012-09-22 09:12
I think we've gone round and round on this, though, and I don't think we'll come any closer to an agreement. I agree that there is a difference between bossy and stubborn. I maintain Sam has been both, just as Dean has. Sam being bossy isn't about responding to Dean--it's about moments when he tells Dean what theyr'e going to do, and they do it. I disagree that this is a phenomenon solely confined to soulless Sam. But again, we're probably never going to agree, so I'll bow out here. Thank you for the debate.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-22 12:25
I was never looking for an agreement.I just was putting forward my views which just happen to be opposite to yours.Quote:
it's about moments when he tells Dean what theyr'e going to do, and they do it.
This is not bossy .Bossy would be them just doing it because Sam does not want Dean to be doing something else or wants Dean to do only what he tells or just because he said so.Recently Sam wanted to help the hunters daughter but Dean wanted to follow up on leviathans Sam did not give an ultimatum he told this he found to be more important.


I liked the debate too, thank you.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-22 01:27
Quote:
No, standing up for yourself isn't being bossy.
I agree . Telling others to do as you say just because,or expecting the other to follow without question is and it was never said Dean was bossy because he stood up for himself,that is what you said.Dean is bossy because he wants Sam to follow his orders just because he said so not because he is standing up for himself.
LEAH D
# LEAH D 2012-09-22 12:44
anononymousN-I agree this subject has played itself out but could you live with the word "bossy" being replaced with "strongly assertive" in regards to Sam?. Dean has always been bossy with Sam, he almost doesn't know any other way. He had to be when they were young and I'm sure he patterned after his dad. He recognizes this, but lifelong habits are difficult to change but he is trying more and more. Dictatorial was used to describe Dean but that sounds like a tyrant. His bossiness and their dads were about keeping Sam safe and doing the job.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-22 13:42
I think assertive (meaning:confid ent and direct in claiming one's rights or putting forward one's views) more aptly describes Sam than stubborn or bossy,Thanks LEAH D for giving me the right term while describing Sam,my vocabulary is not so good ,I am improving and thanks.He has been stubborn at times but this term represents him more.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-19 14:12
Quote:
I thought that the mindwipe's purpose was to wipe Lisa and Ben from the story completely.
Then it was a poorly thought out concept as erasing their memory does not erase them from the story but only erases the story from their memory..they could have erased them like etheldred says below but this was just a patchwork done badly
emmau
# emmau 2012-09-19 18:11
Oh, well, I agree that it was poorly done. I don't think it was a good story ending, but I do think that was the purpose of that ending.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-19 14:17
Quote:
If I misunderstood "I hope Dean is treated as callously", I apologize.
This i only think when i am very bitter( season 4 was a bad time to come online and i was mostly lurking,the after taste is still lingering), but if you ask me do i really want it for Dean,then no.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-19 14:19
Quote:
We will not get Dean's story through Sam . They wont suddenly make Sam the pov character .
for me it will be unfairQuote:
I not really into the grass is greener on the other side of the fence because it is just has hard to mow just give Sam a fair go .
For me it is not grass is greener .How can i be sure of that? Its just that i am curious how they handle Sam POV
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-19 14:19
Quote:
I don't think it does anyone any good for either Sam or Dean's storyline to be a colossal failure, but what I need to happen to make it through this season is for Sam to have enough meat on his storyline so that there's an equal balance in the focus between Sam and Dean. I don't want to have to sit through about 10 episodes focused on what Dean is going through before we get a glimpse of what Sam is going through again.
Completely agree
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-19 14:21
This is in reply to Sharon
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-09-19 14:22
I don't know what is happening my comments are getting posted somewhere else from where i am posting it the above replies are to Sharon and CD28
LEAH D
# LEAH D 2012-09-19 18:11
emmau, you are surely correct that they used the mindwipe to eliminate the characters. They were not popular with most fans. But in the world of SPN they are still out there and really don't have to appear onscreen. They could still be used to threaten or sway Dean. Or he could get a phone call about their demise brought about by his enemies. Just in case the show needs a reason to throw Dean into another bout of depression (or deepen the one he is going thru). I don't wish that to happen, it's just plausible.
emmau
# emmau 2012-09-19 18:18
That's a frighteningly plausible scenario. While I know others might disagree, Lisa/Ben for me was so badly handled I doubt that it can be salvaged in the future. For me, I hope they leave poor mind-wiped Lisa/Ben in the past and find new things for Dean to deal with. I'm not a big fan of recycling storylines, anyway, and I'm more than ready to leave "Let's give Dean moar depression because Jensen's good at it and then we don't have to think up any other personal storylines for him" in the past.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-09-17 11:56
Quote:
For me it was scene where Dean erases their memories which was more shocking ..because if i were a demon my first target would have been Lisa and Ben after their memory wipe
I don't think I've thought of it that way before - good point. I wonder if that ever even crossed Dean's mind, or if he was just trying to pick the lesser of two evils, so to speak.
E
# E 2012-09-17 20:05
This may be going back a ways, but one terribly shocking moment for me when Sam killed Madison in Heart. It was like a punch to the gut. I was so shocked that he actually did it. I was pretty new to the series at this point and I didn't think any TV show would go there. And Sam at this point was still young, idealistic, soft Sam, so his killing of Madison was almost too much for me to bear (along with Dean's heartbreaking reaction). I still feel like this event was a turning point for Sam; his slow start down the dark path.
Rachel marie
# Rachel marie 2012-11-02 15:07
Quote:
This may be going back a ways, but one terribly shocking moment for me when Sam killed Madison in Heart. It was like a punch to the gut. I was so shocked that he actually did it. I was pretty new to the series at this point and I didn't think any TV show would go there. And Sam at this point was still young, idealistic, soft Sam, so his killing of Madison was almost too much for me to bear (along with Dean's heartbreaking reaction). I still feel like this event was a turning point for Sam; his slow start down the dark path.
Yea I thought that was one of the worst moments in supernatural. besides dean going to hell,
vivian
# vivian 2012-09-21 09:10
Before Dean's meeting with Death, there was no possible way to resoul RoboSam, therefore, no point on killing Dean.

Dean came back with the news about his solution and, almost at the same time, put Death's ring in his finger, becoming out of reach to Sam. There was simply no time for Sam to plan an attack on Dean.
cd28
# cd28 2012-09-21 18:34
Good point.
Rachel marie
# Rachel marie 2012-11-02 15:23
The scene where dean told sam that he tortured people in hell really shook me up because I was still in shock about dean being tortured in hell, and then I watched that scene. The worst part was that I couldn't just put it out of my head and think that the writers just wrote in an ooc moment to shock us, because.. its human to want to hurt people when someone hurt you badley, even though they don't deserve it, so it wasn't impossible at all for dean to turn while in hell, but it made me depressed for days because I used to think of dean as kinda like my role model and as some one who could never ever become evil like that. I guess its my own fault for having so much faith in a fictional character.