SPOILER ALERT!  IF you don’t do SPOILERS.  Don’t Read!
 
As we are starting the last run toward the season finale for “SUPERNATURAL”, I thought a kind of summary as to what has happened so far might some ideas of where the writers are going to take the end of the arc this year.
 
A lot has been made of Jeremy Carver taking over the series, but so far he isn’t starting until season eight if they get renewed.  However the fact that WB went out and wooed Carver back seems to indicate there will be a season 8.  Most of the time studios don’t do that if the series will be canceled or in any danger of being cancelled.  And none of the big website has “SUPERNATURAL” anywhere near the cancelation section of their predictions.  So let’s assume a season 8 is going to happen, seems a fairly safe bet at this point.
 
It would make sense for Dick Roman and the leviathans to end their arc this season. And spoilers from Singer and Gamble seem to indicate that that is indeed what will happen.  Hence Carver has a clean slate to work with next year.  There is also a big mystery surrounding the writer of the finale, leading some to speculate that Carver is the author, there by setting up the cliffhanger for his first season.  But it seems logical they would have released that info when his appointment to co-show runner was announced.  At this point if it’s him, there would be no reason to keep it a secret.  However, either way, he can still have, and probably did, an input into the cliffhanger which Robert Singer said we would have.  (*Sigh* You know, just once I’d like to have a finale ending with Dean and Sam riding off into the sunset in Baby, all worries gone, until next season.)  
 
We also have an interview from Singer saying *IF* they get a season 8, he would like to see less angst and more MOTW plots.  That doesn’t mean no storyline at all, just one in which the boys don’t have to save the world again at the expense of all their friends and loved one.  That has lead to speculation, or maybe just wishful thinking, that Bobby and Cass will return, and could mean the return of other beloved characters.  Make no mistake about it; fans have not been pleased with all the fan fav deaths for years.  In fact, it’s been a standing joke on boards to not say you like a character because that means his/her death.  Not a good reflection on the series at all, so if they can rectify that with a creative/original plot, not a magic reset button, or someone slipping in the shower, or a change in a timeline scenario, I think it would be accepted by fans, and if anyone can do that, its Carver and Edlund.
 
So how would the current writers go about ending the Roman and leviathans arc?  

 
I thought a look at each of the active characters we have right now and weaving in some of the spoilers would possible outline a picture of what might happen.  So what up with them?
 
Dean has been extremely depressed and grieving for those that have died…most importantly this year, Cass and Bobby, though Dean feels the death of every friend that has been under his command since he became a hunter.  He could be considered as a powder keg that was set to explode and I kind of liked that idea.  Would LOVE to see him tear into Roam with blood and guts everywhere, live he did to that vampire nest in “Live free or Twi-hard”.  Imagine seeing Dean sitting with Romans’ head under his foot. (SMILE)  
 
And no question he did have a *big* bone to pick with Roman when Bobby and Cass were dead.  Bobby and Cass are still dead, sort of and that might diffuse the situation somewhat.   Bobby is a ghost and back to help the boys if he can, (which is mentioned in a future episode synopsis) and while Cass is incapacitated for the moment, that doesn’t last (which we also know from a future episode synopsis).  Collins is in at least 2 more episodes, and while it’s true Dean still has feelings of betrayal to adjust to with Cass, he will still work with him to get rid of the bigger common enemy, Roman and the levies.  
  
We saw Dean verbally threatened Roman and most agree Dick did not look confident that Dean was just blowing wind.  I certainly wouldn’t have.  Dean is not a hunter you underestimate. So while Dean might not have the big revenge push now that Bobby and Cass are back somewhat, he is still hell-bent on getting Dick.  
 
Sam seems to be on board with the danger of the leviathans now that his personal trials and tribulations till now.  The hallucinations are gone so he can focus on the big bad and just in time to help Dean and their friends, plus any new characters they pick up in the remaining episodes.  But Sam is not excluded from revenge motives either.  He had a big bone to pick with Cass because of the shattered wall that kept Sam’s hallucinations at bay. But Cass redeemed himself for that the best way he could, and Sam currently seems very concerned about Cass, so that  grudge seems over.  Sam also has a wish for killing the levies because of Bobby. Sam does feel grief over Bobby but doesn’t want to believe that Bobby’s ghost or anything supernatural is currently helping them out (which we know will change next episode). He is more prone to feel it’s a grief mechanism of Dean’s to cope with Bobby’s death. Course Bobby’s ghost isn’t part of Dean’s grieving either, but a reality, and now that Bobby is back, Sam’s will have part of his grief abated just like Dean.  I don’t know if that is good or bad.  Like Dean, I want the boys to kill the Big Bad this time.  I want to see the humans defeat the monster … not an angel, or a ghost or the future prophet, or any other supernatural being…just Dean and Sam.
 
Bobby has a *big* bone to pick with Roman. He killed him, (at least for now). I can see Bobby on a revenge track.  That is why a lot of ghosts come back, thought they usually haunt the person that is the object of their anger, not a friend.  But helping the boys is the best way Bobby has of getting his revenge too. And as a ghost, that can lend some interesting twists and turns to the episodes.  

 
Cass also will have a *big* problem with Roman and the levies in general.  Cass let them out and, like with Sam, will feel the need to redeem himself by sending them back.  Will this mean another personal sacrifice for Cass?  I really guess that depends on how they write the leviathans.  We know that the levies took over Cass and left his body (or Jimmy’s body) in water.  As Cass left the river naked, I’m guessing we are to assume his body exploded and was restored by an unknown force, just like before.  Castiel was been killed twice, once by Raphael and once by Lucifer, and subsequently resurrected each time. The series never revealed how Cass was restored either time he died, but after he the second time Castiel said he thought God brought him back.   And God was named again when Emanuel stated Daphne found him because God lead her to him.  “God” does seem to keep cropping up.
 
Do I see Bobby and Cass being restored?  I think it’s a strong possibility. Tweets from actors, interviews with showrunners outside “SUPERNATURAL”, and convention talks seem to hint that both characters will return.  And if they want to bring either actor back, they can write the cannon anyway they want.  Those whose don’t want Bobby and Cass back have been citing old “SUPERNATURAL” cannon as reason why they should be left dead.  The series has been making up a show ‘bible’ as they go along, so they really don’t have to follow anything they have written before.  They can change at will, should they feel the need to explain.  It’s not like they haven’t had plot holes before.
 
But if Bobby is staying with the show, they should make him corporeal.  I just don’t think a friendly ghost will be very scary to “Supernatural” fans or widely accepted, and with Cass and other Archangels in the episodes, that shouldn’t be a huge problem.  Shoot, even Crowley can do it, and he did seem to have a soft spot for Bobby once
 
And who want to see Bobby turn into some vengeful spirit down the road.  Watching Bobby die once was enough for many, and having Dean burn the flask would be very sad. Bring him back altogether or let him go. Ditto for Cass.  Cass’ dry sense of humor has lent many a fun moment to the series and I’d like to see that again as would many Cass fans.  NOT that I want the angels to over stage the Winchesters and do all the kills, but a helpful hand in SOME of their hunts would be fine.  And now that we know there *is* a heaven and hell, why shouldn’t we be visited by angels and demons.    It’s not like they are a mystery anymore.
 
Frank does appear to be really dead right now, and his computers destroyed or stolen.  In the synopsis for episode 7.20 “The Girl With the Dungeons and Dragons Tattoo, ” Roman has Frank’s computer and insists a computer hacker he has on his payroll crack the code and give him all the info on the hard drive….some supposedly damaging to the Winchesters.   The character, Charlie, doesn’t like being a whistle-blower and eventually runs in the Winchesters, who want her to give them Frank’s data and not Roman.
 
So what could be on the computer about the boys?   I really can’t see what Frank could have that Cass didn’t, since the Leviathans have all the memories of the people they take over.  Frank can’t have their location since they don’t have one.  They are not using the credit cards they were before and Frank was ‘dead’ before Dean knew about Cass, so Cass can’t be the information.  
 
Dean did pay Frank money to dig up info on Roman so you would think that is what Charlie would fine.  After all Frank should have done something for Dean’s money. So maybe the info about Dean and Sam is a red herring from the writers and the actual info is about Roman.  Did Frank finally get some dirt on Roman and that’s what led to his demise?  (Not all that surprising since some people liked him so he would have to go too!) 
 
Another player we are told will be involved at the end is the King of Hell, Crowley.  According to Gamble, Crowley has his hands in everything and he has a few bones to pick himself.  First with Cass because of the double crossed with the souls from Purgatory.  As things turned out however, Crowley should be thankful Cass did double-cross him, as I doubt Crowley would have been any more able to handle the leviathans then Cass did. 
 
Second Crowley is after the leviathans which he views as an obstacle to his complete domination over evil in the world.  Besides, Roman personally insulted Crowley and that will not sit well with the King of Hell, and Crowley has no problem using the boys to get what he wants.  In “Season 7, Time for a Wedding”, he even agreed to keep his demons at bay so the brothers could concentrate their energies on Roman.  First time we have seen demons since then is “The Bourne Again Identity” and it seems those demons were acting on their own. 
 
And then there is Meg, what’s up with her?  Gamble tells us she is on Crowley’s hit list for siding with Lucifer so is looking for allies of any kind.  She definitely wants Crowley’s head, and what better way to get that then with a fallen angel with all his powers intact. And following the rumors about this wonder of a healer, she found Dean and an amnesiac Cass.  Who better to ally herself with, at least until her own agenda could be put into play.   With all the renegade demons dead, only she and the boys know Cass is alive, so she guards Cass until he recovers.  That recovery takes place in episode 7.21, ““Reading Is Fundamental” which is concurrent with the mysterious appearance of two archangels.
 
So Dean, Sam, Crowley, Ghost!Bobby and Cass have revenge motives, and it seems only natural that they would assembly together against the common enemy  and then turn on  varies fractions  once the Big bad is gone. Meg is after Crowley but if Team Free Will needs him to beat Roman, Meg will have to go along or find herself at odds with the group.  Crowley wants Cass and Meg, but like everyone else, he will have to play nice in the sandbox with the other boys, or he too will find himself a target.   It goes without saying that Dean, Sam, and Ghost!Bobby want Crowley and Meg.  Cass wants Crowley too, but it’s still up in the air how he feels about Meg.  He may not have an issue with her this season, and they did have a ‘something, something’ going on in past years.   Roman and his monsters want everyone dead….including us!  I guess that about sums up this group!.  
 
So that brings us to the leviathans.  What do we know about them?  
 
According to Death, "Long before God created Angel and Man, he made the first beasts: The Leviathans."   Death describes them as "clever and poisonous" and proved to be so extremely destructive, God locked them away in Purgatory.  But when Cass opened Purgatory, he adsorbed them with all the souls and they were too strong to be put back.   They stayed and eventually entered our world through water supplies.
 
In SPNverse, we know they ooze black goo, are injured with borax but killed only by beheading and relocating the head somewhere else.   They eat people for food and can bib themselves as a form of punishment. (That is so funny!) They have their own hierarchy and according to Frank, are climbing into all levels of society; buying up vast amounts of property, including a field in Wisconsin, and want to cure cancer in people.  We also know that their leader,  Roman, feels, endangered by the Winchesters since Dean threatened him , so much so that he has put out a ‘kill on sight’ order for them.  We also know they have dissenters in their ranks (George for one) and that the boys can possible use them to their advantage. (George was listed as a recurrent character and if the leviathan arc is ending, George will have to make his reappearance this season.)
 
In reality, the leviathans mean different things to different religions.  In Demonology, leviathans were one of the Seven Demons of Hell, which are seen as the equivalent to the Seven Archangels of Heaven. Often, each demon corresponds to one of the seven deadly sins, associating the leviathans with Envy.  The Hebrew bible, lists 34 attributes to the levies….among them that nothing on earth are their equal.  (That would seem to leave the boys and Bobby out of the kill.)  It says to ‘break the heads of Leviathan in pieces’ before giving his flesh to the people of the wilderness”; and that the monster “is called the ‘wriggling serpent’ who will be killed at the end of time.”  They also give a description as a worm-like creature having a huge mouth ringed with sharp teeth. (That sounds familiar.)
 
Judeo-Christian lore says the Leviathans are primordial sea monsters and according to legend, can be killed by archangels, Michael or Gabriel in particular.  Other legends say God will slay the beast, while yet another version of the story says that the Behemoth (the primal unconquerable monster of the land) and the Leviathan will fight a mortal battle at the end of the world. The two will kill each other and the surviving men will feast on their meat.  (Yuck…I don’t think I would want to eat black goo.)
 
Anyway I guess we can see various similarities with fact and what is written in the series, but none of that explains what their down fall will be except that the solution will be biblical….again. Also in many religious texts Michael and God are used interchangeably.  Michael is the big monster killer o record in many religions and has a lot of stories about all the evils he has killed with his sword.
 
This has given rise to so speculation that the series was going to release Michael!Adam from the cage to kill the levies and then both ascend back to heaven.  Many fans have been very vocal about releasing Adam from the cage and as a new showrunner will be taking over next year, this would be a good time to do that, if it was ever to be done.  And for those who have been keeping up with all this speculation on the boards, yes, Jake Abel is currently in Vancouver to film a movie starting on April 16th and yes, SPN is still filming the finale until next Wednesday, April 18th.  Oh and Abel’s movie is REAL!  But whether he would have time for a cameo appearance in the finale is unknown, if Michael is even a part of the ending.
  
This Michael speculation was further fueled by photos released from the a set on 7.22, buy Jim Michaels, S.E. Hilton, who was visiting last week, and Guy Norman Bee, the director of the episode.  What were the photos about?  Bee called it the “Angel of Light”…
 

 

Guy Bee’s photos, Jim Michaels photo of Jerry Wanek’s nephew, Hinton and Bob Singer 

 

…and it’s a biblical painting that was also seen in “Lucifer Rising”…actually in the ‘green room’  where Zach was holding Dean a prisoner…one of many paintings that were on the walls in the room.

However, the set in episode 7.22 is not the same as the ‘green room’ in Lucifer Rising. And as the leviathans and Cass are still part of the mythology from season 4 and 5, it makes sense that the solution to them would be biblical in nature and found in a church, chapel or museum where biblical texts would be stored.  
 
Keep in mind that this is only one possibility and that, if an archangel is needed, there are others that are in the series too.  Gabriel is also written as slaying leviathans and if God restored Cass twice, no reason he can restore Gab too.  Or maybe one of the new archangels will kill them, or maybe the solution will not be biblical at all.  The St. Michael painting could only mean they are exploring a possible biblical connection.  Remember Cass is looking to make restitution and spoilers said Cass fans would have more closure this time.  Can’t see how that would happen if archangels were being used as the solution.
 
Speaking of archangels, they appear in episode 7.21 “Reading Is Fundamental” and are on earth for Kevin Tran (guest star Osric Chau) who becomes a reluctant prophet after being struck by lightning.  Actually Dean and Sam want him too as they feel he holds the key to defeating the Leviathans.  Why the archangels want him we can only guess but maybe it has something to do with Cass.   
 
This is the same episode in which Cass comes out of his catatonic state, and you have to wonder if the appearance of the archangels has anything to do with that. Cass really wreaked havoc in heaven, killing a lot of angels who he felt were deserving of death.  These archangels, on the other hand, might disagree.   Maybe they have come to take him back to pay for his crimes.  If that’s the case, things will get more complicated for the boys.

We also will have new characters thrown into the mix.  A computer hacker named, Charlie, who could survive and return to help the boys some more, George from “Out With the Old” was listed as a recurring character and as a leviathan, whose story line is ending, I’m guessing he will return this season , and Kevin will be in the last three episodes.  Also of interesting is that the casting call for Kevin was for a teenager of Asian descent.   Lots of mythology, fables and lore associated with the Asian culture, going back thousands of years.  I can see where an Asian prophet could have the solution the boys need, and something that archangels would want….maybe something that’s part of the cliffhanger for next season?
 
It’s also possible that Ghost!Bobby will save the day, that the Leviathans will appear triumphant in the cliffhanger and return in s8, that the brothers will make some kind of deal with Crowley, or that Castiel and/or Meg might be the saviors this time.  It’s just too early to tell, but it does make for some interesting speculation. 
 
We also have to have Baby back and the ‘wrap’ photo Guy Bee tweeted of his last day on set has Baby in it, so either she is back in 7.22 or 7.23, but at least she will be back.  She should have returned much sooner than this.
 

 
 
The seventh season of Supernatural has been met with mixed reviews from both critics and fans alike and the ending of the season will decide for many how they rate the year.  The return of Bobby, or even the much anticipated return of Misha Collins, would probably not do much to placate some disillusioned fans, especially with the reality of a eighth season still being up in the air.
 
However others are really looking forward to Carver’s special blend of talent to breathe new life into the show and feel they don’t care how this year ends…they just want to look forward to a new year. 
 
So, whichever way it goes for you, let’s all hope we have season 8 to look forward to!
 

 

Comments  

Kidivia
# Kidivia 2012-04-17 16:33
I have sooo many questions! Like, why do leviathans want to cure cancer? It makes you wonder what happens to them when they eat a person with cancer. Also, since Castiel was married, will that open up possible love scenes for him in future episodes (I hope and pray!)? And what if is wife is pregnant, will we be having little Cas's running around soon? Too much to think about here!
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-04-17 18:26
I'm one that has given up on whatever plot they might have going this season -- and I really still do not know which one is is the real one. I'm going to be patient, wait for Carver and see what he can do with the show. I'm really looking forward to his return.

The one thing I am excited about is having the Impala back and the possibility that Dean will get his mojo back with it.

Like you, the one thing I don't want to happen is that the supernaturals save the day, and that is particularly true about the prospect of having Michael/Adam take on the Levi. Dean made the threat, Dick took the threat seriously, and it should be Dean or Dean and Sam that make the kill (or send them back to Purgatory). Anything else and I will not feel satisfied.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-04-17 20:52
So many threads still to deal with. I hadn't heard the rumor about Michael/Adam. I actually like that idea. I hate the idea of Adam in Hell for eternity(its one of my few gripes about Swan Song), so depending on how its done I'm all for that.

Of course that's kind of my answer for everything. I could see a lot of these ideas working depending on how its done.

While I don't want to see the boys sitting on the sidelines through the fights, I have no problem with them getting help. Be it Cas, Bobby or the archangels, as long as the story is done in a compelling way and they're not used as ex deus machina. But honestly I really haven't seen that very often at all with this show. But I guess definitions of that vary and are subjective.

I have to admit I kind of surprised they're wrapping up the Leviathan storyline this year. Their influence seems so widespread I figure it would hold roll over until next year. But I guess if angels are involved that could move matters along. But really don't mind either way as long as there is SOME movement this season.

Honestly the personal storylines seem to be more of the driving force this season and those I the ones I most interested in seeing resolved. Dean's depression/apat hy, Sam's mental health (getting a better idea of what was transferred to Cas and where that leaves Sam) and how these effect their relationship. And I WANT MORE BROTHER MOMENTS.

I fear we are going to lose Bobby again, but would be REALLY happy to be wrong and I agree he can't stay as ghost Bobby into next year. I like having Cas back but I have to see where the storyline is headed to have any opinion on his returning next year.
So basically I'm in a wait and see pattern. But I think I have a lot higher hopes than others seem to. Because I am by no means writing off the rest of this year. I throughly enjoyed this season, despite some quibbles (and a couple stinker episodes) and I'm really looking forward to the rest of it.
Sablegreen
# Sablegreen 2012-04-17 21:35
The leviathan arc is moving very slow. But like last year, I don't expect much to be answered until the last 1-2 episodes. And how those are handled depend of the writers of those episodes. So far, we still do not know who is writing the finale, even now that they are filming it. Have to wonder what all the mystery is about.
Sablegreen
# Sablegreen 2012-04-17 20:53
Thanks for the comments guys.

Kidivia – I’d like to know what’s up with the cancer cure too. That did come from a leviathan so whether is true or not is unknown. It may well be that they think humans will accept them more if they cure a devastating disease. Or it maybe that cancer is to them what the common cold was to the aliens in War of the World. Or as I read on one site, the leviathans are breeding and feeding cancer laden people to the young cause’s life threatening problems. Yeah…that is out there but who knows…specula tion is fun.

As for Cass’ wife, she really wasn’t Cass’ wife she was Emanuel’s and he no longer exists. Daphna was introduced to ‘move the arc along’, and when that is accomplished that character usually disappears from the story. Daphna’s purpose was to give a history to Cass and a reason why he was alive yet hadn’t contacted Dean. She did that and I really don’t expect her to show up again. But who knows maybe we’ll see her in s8 if we get one. Cass does owe her a lot!

Ginger & pentadactyl – The boys working out the solution to monsters was the best part of the earlier seasons. When they started with the myth arc, that all seemed to get lost in the shuffle, along with the reason for the show, the brotherly bond. Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem with humans getting help from supernaturals, I just don’t want to see the non-human entities saving the day while humans are reduced to cheerleaders. The angels and demons can do that in their own realm, but on earth the humans should be the top dogs.

A lot of people are putting a lot of hope onto Carver’s shoulders. I have always loved his creativity, and if you are not familiar with him watch Being Human. He weaves some interesting twists and turns into his stories that keep you guessing, but never do you feel he is slighting the viewers’ intelligence. You can write any SyFy story you want, but it has to be believable over the majority of your audience or it’s not going anywhere, and he just has a knack for doing that in my opinion. Hence, if anyone can restore some of the fan favs that the series has killed off, in a VERY believable fashion…I believe it’s him
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-04-17 21:29
I only watched the first two episodes of Being Human and none of the characters grabbed me, so..no, I haven't watched it. What I have got from everything I read is that each character is developed and there are twists and turns that don't, as you say, slight the viewer's intelligence.

The thing that I am pinning my hopes on with Carver is that he 'gets' both Sam and Dean's characters and I like his efficient use of dialogue to tell a story. My biggest hope, though, is that the two lead characters once again drive the plot and not visa versus as now. I think that will put the brothers' relationship back on the table again and restore the original premise of the series, which is horror/drama and nor popcorn horror/soap.

Honestly, I think his work is cut out for him (and I'm not sure why he even wanted the job), but I am willing to give him the time to work it out. As I said, the thought of the Impala's return and Carver coming on-board makes me very happy. Carver, Edlund, and Singer sounds like a winning trio to me. And we still have Phil Scriggia and the new Robbie Thompson, and Dabb & Loflin (who I like for the most part). That's a pretty solid core group.
Sablegreen
# Sablegreen 2012-04-17 22:05
Not only is each character fully developed and maintained, but each is multifaceted, and no one character is written at the expense of any of the other three. Each storyline is tailor made for that particular character and all are different, so each is interesting and fun to watch. Yet the three friends, though separate and distinct, are woven together and, to me at least, show more bonding between them that we have seen from the brothers in a long time. It’s a very unique show to follow.

If Carver can bring any part of that to SPN, it will make a difference.
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-04-18 00:28
It's funny you mention the bonding. Right now on SPN, I have the feeling that Dean doesn't trust Sam as far as he can throw him. I may be the only one to think that, but I've had that feeling from very early in the season. And I believe that neither brother particularly even like each other. It's like watching two men who have worked together for a long time, but who have rubbed each other wrong over the years.

Separate, non-connected storylines, separate scenes to give the actors time off, dealing with their own issues ... whatever. I definitely want to see that change.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-04-18 01:42
I agree with you on Dean, I disagree about Sam. Frankly, I have felt that Dean really never got over the Ruby betrayal. He came around only when Sam showed absolute trust in Dean during Point of No Return. After that things start moving very fast. In The Devil You Know, Dean takes Crowley's word that Sam can't handle seeing Pestilence's handler and leaves Sam behind. Dean does give Sam his revenge by allowing him to kill the demon that inhabits Brady, allowing Sam some closure for Jess's death, but he watches Sam do it, partly, I believe to make certain Sam doesn't screw up. In Two Minutes to Midnight Dean doesn't seem to believe Sam did stand and protect innocent civilians until Bobby confirms that fact. Yes, Dean does go along with Sam's plan to let Lucifer in and does believe that Sam can take control, but at that point there is little other choice. Sam proves himself and falls into the cage because of his love for Dean and Dean's love for him.

I do think that by season six, Dean had forgiven Sam and "trusted" him. After all it is hard to not trust someone who is dead and gone. Sam coming back without a soul led to Soulless Sam betraying Dean AGAIN and IMHO that reopened all the "Sam can't be trusted" wounds. Even when Dean gets Sam's soul back, he knows that Sam can never be completely himself again. And Sam does try to discover exactly what kind of life his soulless self lived. The betrayals by SoullessSam and Sam's attempt to find himself left Dean back where he was in early season five, unable to trust Sam because SoullessSam showed the relentless side that all people have and Sam's one attempt to find redemption went against the rules set in place for his safety.

Season seven puts Dean unable to trust Sam for completely different reasons. Everyone, Death, Castiel, Balthazar, Crowley all agree that Sam's soul is in such bad shape that he will become unable to function. Dean lives most of season seven waiting for "the other shoe to drop". Sam downplays his condition and that adds to Dean's distrust. Frankly, we have only had one episode in 2 seasons where Dean could even start to rebuild his trust in Sam. I have no idea if Dean can do that at this time. My personal opinion is that unless and until Dean fails Sam as badly as Sam failed Dean, that Dean will not be able to trust Sam again, because he will never be able to truly understand how Sam could be lured into betraying Dean.

Sam is a harder case for me to analyze. After killing Ruby, Sam did everything to prove himself to Dean and with a few exceptions trusted Dean fairly implicitly. Yes, Sam tried (poorly) to explain his turning to Ruby in Fallen Idols. IMHO it was a badly written scene that stated a truism about any relationship that falls apart; that Sam had reasons he did bad things. He didn't do them solely because he was a bad, betraying brother, but because some of Dean's actions pushed his buttons and he made horrible choices in return. Other than that, in season five Sam tries to be loyal to Dean, fights his addiction and tries to make good choices. He stays with Dean even when Dean rejects him (yes, I'm thinking of the amulet) and even when Dean tells him that Dean believes that Sam will betray Dean and the world again by saying yes to Lucifer.

In season six even SoullessSam seems to trust Dean to some extent. He agrees to allow Dean to direct his moral compass. Once Dean discovers the lack of Sam's soul, SoullessSam did not have to remain working with Dean, but he does. SS could have hunted on his own and picked his own way. However, he chooses to stay by Dean's side. He initially agrees to try and get his soul back. It is only when Cas, Balthazar and Crowley all tell him that getting his soul back will destroy him that Sam rebels. All this says to me that on some level Sam wants to be with Dean and does trust him.

Once Sam gets his soul back, things do become more murky. Sam in the back half of season six is like someone with DID and 2 parts of his psyche are submerged. Since Sam is so fragmented, I can see the argument that there is no way to tell if he likes Dean, but there is little to no indication that he doesn't. Certainly, Sam gives up the relative safety and comfort of being in his own mind and not remembering Hell in order to make certain that Dean is NOT left alone. That speaks to love, caring and friendship.

Season seven makes Sam's feelings for Dean very difficult to assess. Sam is psychotic, hallucinating and holding onto sanity (or at least being functional) by his fingernails. He may or may not be certain that Dean is actually Dean every time he sees him. After Slash Fiction, he does show that he is capable of leaving Dean and working on his own. He chooses to understand Dean's actions in regard to Amy and to continue to work with Dean. He trusts that when Dean killed Amy Dean may have been correct and that Sam may have not been able to judge the situation properly. He shows concern about Dean's drinking. When Bobby is shot, he tries to prepare Dean for the possibility of Bobby's death. He tries to determine if Bobby is a ghost without getting Dean's hopes up. In Time After Time he sees and believes in Dean's message from the past in order to bring Dean back to the present. Again, we have only seen Sam in a truly sane position for one episode this season. Determining whether he likes Dean or trusts him is hard because there hasn't been that much time to demonstrate his feelings toward Dean.

I think the relationship between Sam and Dean is very complicated. I do believe that Dean is still holding on to pain and anger that stemmed from Sam's actions. I do think that Sam loves and respects Dean. I really hope that the relationship can be healed because in the end, that is what connects me to Supernatural.
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-04-18 05:08
Nice analysis, most of which I agree with. I think we all agree that the brothers love each other, but from what I see on-screen, I wished they liked each other. For a very long time now...What? Three years?...there has been no pleasure, no fun, no joy in their relationship (save the one laugh from Dean in Plucky's and Sam's smile at Dean and the big pretzel in Monster Movie).

Personally, I am not feeling any warmth between the two, So, love? Yes, but it is possible to love an illusion, but liking each other for what they are...no so much, IMO.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-04-18 12:02
I really liked your analysis, Percy. I've had some similar thoughts. I even thought that part of the reason that Sam was so upset in Slash Fiction is because Dean FINALLY trusted his judgment again-only to find out it was a lie. This threw Sam totally for a loop since I think he was having trouble trusting himself, but put his trust in Dean's trust (if that makes ANY sense-lol).

He even thanked Dean for trusting him in DYL and said he felt good at the end and seemed pretty good until the end of SF. And at the end of the Mentalist he decides that Dean's was right, IMO because he decided he COULDN'T trust himself.(at the beginning of that episode it looked like he was having trouble figuring out if Dean was real). Then he was drugged through a good portion of Seven 7.... and seemed a little frantic when he woke up. At the end he tells Dean he can start taking care of himself. I wonder if its not because he was doing so well, but because he wasn't and he wanted Dean to be OK when he further deteriorated. Then Bobby died and he got worse IMO. After that he often seemed agitated and frantic. He admitted he saw this coming in BAI even if Dean didn't (or at least didn't admit to himself he did). And his biggest concern seemed to be for Dean, such as telling him "not to do this to himself" and telling him not to die in SG. I don't doubt Sam's affection this season at all.

But Dean's been more of an enigma for me. He has been so withdrawn from everything, including Sam. He obviously still loves him and cares about him, but its like he's pulling back. I think your right that Soulless Sam tore open some old wounds but he seemed good once Sam got his soul back-happy even in LaV. But I think with Cas' betrayal he's "having a hard time trusting anyone" and Sam's psychosis' is making it impossible to fully trust him again. So I don't know if he's been trying to protect himself from another blow or what but he is definitely not as engaged as he normally is.

So those are the 3 things I want most from this season.
Dean moving past a lot of these issues and reengaging in both hunting and most importantly his relationship with Sam. I don't know maybe your right and that it will take a failure on his part to understand weaknesses in others. And I want Sam to start talking about his problems and stop protecting Dean from them and to trust himself again. I don't need much just a few scenes of the brothers reconnecting and trusting each other again and I'll be happy.
PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2012-04-17 22:57
I got hooked on "Being Human", so I am looking forward to seeing what Carver can do next year. I'm always surprised at what the writers do at the end. I'm with you though, why always a cliffhanger? If I like your show, I'll be back next season. Making me wait 3 months to finish 1 story isn't good tv, it's just annoying!!! (on any show) But most of them do it anyway,and Supernatural ALWAYS has. Can't wait to see how they get rid of the Leviathans. It's in the blood I think, but I hope it IS this season as well. Five more weeks to find out for sure! FUN TIMES
Jen
# Jen 2012-04-18 02:12
If they go down the biblical route, I can only say I have zero interest in Michael!Adam to make a come back. I have A LOT of interest in Michael!Dean though. Dean is desperate enough at this point that he would say yes to Michael. I not only like this idea, because I simply really want to see Jensen Ackles' version of Michael, which I assume would be pretty bad ass, but also because that way he could make a deal with Michael saying he has to bring Bobby back for real. I'd have no problems with that. But more resurrections? I don't know, not feeling it. It would also be interesting to see how Dean is coping after Michael is leaving his body again (or even more interesting what if Michael won't leave that easily, what if he doesn't want to leave).

Or maybe if they go down that route it all ends with Dean saying yes to Michael in the finale and S8 is all about Dean!Michael and dual personality stuff but in a different way than they handled it with Luci!Sam. I heard that Carver seems to have a soft spot for the topic of dual personalities. At least that's what I heard from people who watch Being Human. So much for that.

Castiel. I think there are two options for them. It has already been said that "the finale will involve a cliffhanger with two fan favourites ending up in very unfamilar places" and Collins - if I remember correctly - said that Castiel will go through another transformation at the end of the season. Now as I said there are two options: either Castiel redeems himself in giving up all his powers and becoming human or he's paying his dues and goes to hell. Kind of like a literal fallen angel. Which could be interesting since he's been dealing with Lucifer in his head for a while now I assume. It would also leave his character open to come back in season 8.
EireneS
# EireneS 2012-04-18 03:27
What if the Leviathan George only said the "party line" about the disease center and cancer cure center. What if it is a front to get people into the centers to be confiscated and eaten. Why would they not be able to eat diseased people-with garlic sauce or hot cheese anything would taste good. Sort of like the Nazi party did with directing arrivals at death camps into showers to clean themselves and instead killing them. Millions died-perhaps the same idea is in the back of Dick Roman's mind.
I don't think Castiel will be into human sex-married or not. No little Cass's flying around.
I do hope Dean and Sam are the ones to end Dick Roman-it seems only fair. And I do hope they end the Leviathan story mostly this season. With some clean up next season maybe, but mostly over.
I think if the guys and their cohorts are able to end the Leviathans this season, then Bobby will have to be brought back or he will have to let go and leave being a ghost. His main reason, I believe, is to tell the guys about the Leviathans plans and to help Sam and Dean kill Dick Roman and his minions. How do you kill all the Leviathans? If Dick Roman is killed, do all the others die? Is there going to be a way to make them all bib themselves?
I wonder if Eric Kripke is writing the final episode script? He can write an intense script and that would be great.
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-04-18 05:15
I've thought that it is very possible that EK is writing the finale. After Swan Song, all I can say is that I very much hope not.

If one thing can be said about EK, it is that when he gets distracted, he can screw up something he has lost interest in rather royally. He is off developing something else right now, so he is very much distracted. I hope he stuck with his new project.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-04-18 12:13
I wondered about EK too. He's really good at pulling a lot of threads together in a way that seems realistic to me. So that would be great I think. And he's always loved the Impala as much as the rest of us, so maybe he'll be writing its triumphant return.

I doubt they'd go there with the little Cas cause kids are a pain in the ass to write in on a show with a lot of action. But I do think Cas got himself a little something something while he was married. I wondered if she is evil or canon fodder either way I don't see it ending well for her.
Sablegreen
# Sablegreen 2012-04-18 12:19
Great comments guys! Have a few thoughts for you!

Ginger- Many have commented on the lack of bonding the brothers are showing now. It’s like they just go through the motions of being brothers but feel nothing. For me, it stems from the myth arc when the theme was brother vs. brother. That did more than just cause angst; it destroyed the whole core of the show. The brother’s devotion to each other WAS the show.

The last half of s5 was a mess and s6 was even worse especially for brotherly bonding. Sam certainly has given Dean a lot reason over the years to trust him less, than say Bobby or Cass. Dean certainly seems reluctant to confide in Sam and given what has happened in the past it’s understandable. That adds much more stress to Dean’s psyche and much more strain on the boys bonding. Dean needs either Bobby back, or Cass and I’m guessing it will be Bobby he turns too, even as a ghost.

This season, again, they have kept the bonding at arm’s length with the hallucinations arc. Sam tried to kill Dean during one of his sessions; so of course Dean will be leery of Sam. Dean will ever be totally sure Sam is over them. So there again we see TPTB reluctance to bring back the boys the fans want.

This I hope is what Carver can correct, but remember he is only one person and this past 7 years was a result of many people not just Gamble. She may be getting the short end of the stick in this regard, but she was the show runner, so the buck stops with her.

I don’t know about EK writing the finale. No reason they would keep that a secret. They didn’t last year. And he really is busy with his new pilot, so I don’t think it’s him. Just my opinion though.

Percysowner - For me since the last half of s5 on, Dean was not Dean, and Sam was not Sam. From s4 on, the show had not been true to the characters of the original brothers…neit her were they in s6. That’s the main reason those years are not well liked.

The real Dean never would have let his brother wear Luci and the real Sam would never have even considered going down that route. They wrote Dean as hugely depressed and incapable of guiding his brother correctly which forced Sam to make a choice and Sam’s character is not designed to do that, at least not the character they had written Sam as being to that point. Not all plots fit all characters. And plots that will work for dean’s character will not necessarily work on Sam’s character and vice-versa

In Dean’s state he would have agreed to anything Sam wanted to do. That was the error of s5. The show has shown repeatedly that Sam’s choices are not the correct ones, and yes there were other options the Kripke could have taken that would not have been as controversial as Swan Song was. Ditto for the s6 finale which Kripke wrote. It’s what has led many to think Kripke has less interest in the series and just wants to move on. And I can see why he would want to try his hand at other ventures. Hence his attempt at Sandman and now the new pilot he’s involved with for the fall. He wants many SPNs in his career.

Swan Song sent the series down s6 which was worse than s5, to the point where Jensen actually started commenting about it in interviews. Even though TPTB knew their arc was taking a lot of flack; it was continued and even carried over into s7. If there was more to Gamble’s leaving than just perusing other options that was it.

As for the boy’s relationship being healed, of course it can. Both boys can return to their original characters even with all the water that has run under the bridge. It’s called a fresh start, a new beginning, turning over a new leaf, and people do it all the time. Will it be easy, nope, but nothing worthwhile ever is. From what I’ve see of Carver, he could pull it off with the help of Edlund and Singer for sure.

PENNY JAIME - It’s funny you should say that. I was just at a press conference with Craig Stevens, the EP for Nikita. He was asked if he would end this season with a cliffhanger not knowing yet if they were renewed. And he said no, that he even considered it irresponsible to do that. He said it wouldn’t be fair to those who would never find out what happened then. Hehehe. I like him!

Many shows end seasons on happy notes. It should be done with SPN to…at least once in a while.

Jen – A lot of people have an interest in either Michael!Adam or Michael!Dean. I have no interest in either. Again, that lets the supernaturals solve the problem and that should be done by humans. If Michael wants to transfer his ‘sword’ which is just a pseudonym for ‘powers’ to Dean to do the deed, that’s fine. But either Dean or Dean and Sam should be totally in control of all their faculties for the kill period!

And I wouldn’t say Carver has a soft spot for duel-personalit ies exactly. It could be called that I guess, but more he likes internal conflict and the strength of the characters to work out the solutions. And his characters always make the right choice, no matter how hard it is. Josh’s is fighting a change in personality that happens to him periodically. Aiden has a violent past in which he did MANY bad things. He’s trying to turn over a new leaf, but his past keeps returning to haunt him. So far, he has held on to his new leaf, but it has cost him a lot. And Sally is a ghost who was tied here for a reason. She resolved that reason and was given the opportunity to move on, BUT she stayed because Josh and Aiden needed her at the time. Now she is haunted by an evil entity and it does appear to be part of herself. It makes her very violent and vengeful and to me makes me think we are seeing, from Sally’s POV, what happens when a ghost turns vengeful by staying on past it time. It does seem like it is reversible, but that remains to be see.

I think it’s likely that the fates of both Bobby and Cass will be carried over until next season.

EireneS – Whatever they use to kill the leviathans has to be able to find them in all corners of the world. Not even Michael’s sword is rumored to do that. I’m thinking maybe some form of black magic? Like Donald Stark used on the levie in Shut Up, Dr Phil?
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-04-18 13:25
I guess this is where we are going to have to agree to disagree. I LOVED Swan Song and season 5. It maybe my favorite season although I fluctuate between it and season 4. I thought because they did show the blows to their relationship throughout both seasons that they earned the change in Dean and Sam. Sam DIDN'T trust himself to make the decision to say yes to Lucifer which is why he said everyone had to agree. I'll admit Dean allowing him to say yes is the biggest leap, but he was trying to show Sam he did believe in him again. And I think he was trying not to be selfish, to save his brother while the world burned. He went to hell to save Sam. He was going to let Sam go to Hell to save the world, which is what Sam believed he should do. But I think he had every intention of getting him back, regardless of what Sam said. And Dean actually did say he was still trying when he found the Soulless version.

I do hope your wrong about Dean turning to Bobby or Cas instead of Sam. I would be very disappointed if at the end of season they're not back more on track. (at least I think I will- they've made me a convert to strife before but I do think its time for a reconnection)

It's my belief and I guess will see in the next 5 weeks if its true. That this season HAS been working towards a reset in a realistic way. That all the emotional issues of the past seasons having been coming to a head and now hopefully within the final five episodes we'll see some real progress towards a fresh start. I for one would not and will not be fully satisfied if they had (or still do) simply shake hands and say we're good. I'm not saying I'll hate this season if that is the case but I won't be as satisfied.
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-04-18 16:03
I agree with you in that I cannot even watch S4, 5 and 6 anymore, because with Swan Song, I feel like I was lied to for 2 years, and S6 was just a total mess. It literally almost ruined the whole show for me. If fans cannot trust cannon, they cannot believe in the story or the show. Both EK and SG should know that, being at the level they have attained in their careers. You simply do not lie about canon or there is no trust with the audience.

That's why I am having a problem with GhostBobby, and it has nothing to do with Bobby or Jim Beaver; nor does it matter if he is left as a ghost or is magically resurrected. Show canon has solidly always told us that the supernatural was bad -- ghosts are bad. Sam knows this and Dean knows this. Tessa flat out told Dean that ghosts always turn vengeful if they choose not to move on. In And Then There Was None, Dean was willing to kill Bobby by electrocuting him to get rid of the worm in him. Leaving Bobby as a ghost on the shoulder goes against everything in the history of the show.

I know Dean wishes Bobby was not dead and that this season it has clearly been shown that Dean wants Bobby as the ghost on his shoulder. But, that does not negate the fact that Dean knows it is not right ... not right for him and not right for Bobby. And that right there is the problem I have, along with idea of jerking the audience around with a 2-episode story of killing Bobby off just to bring him back.

Then there's the fact that if Bobby is resurrected, Dean's whole season story was pointless. It wouldn't be the first time Dean was left laying in the dirt to tell a bad story, but I'd be really ticked off if the show went there again after SS and all of S6.

And, you're right. Attempting to make Sam into Dean and Dean into Sam just did not work. It did both characters a huge disservice. I want the brothers back...and back in character. I hope Carver will do that, and not by means of giving Dean Michael's supernatural powers. I want humanity to win for a change, as I think this will bring some joy and hope back into the show.

I'd really be up for a happy ending this season. I'm liking that Craig Stevens, too. Especially considering that last season left us talking about Cas; not the Winchesters, and this season the two long hiatus's have left us talking about Cas and Bobby; not the Winchesters. I'd like to get back to talking about the Winchesters; the leads, and not support characters. But again, like you, I think we're going to be left wondering the fates of Bobby and Cas.

Lastly, I've been wondering how they expect to kill off all the Levi worldwide at all the highest levels of society. Over-reach? Once more?
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-04-19 16:26
Quote:
In Dean’s state he would have agreed to anything Sam wanted to do. That was the error of s5. The show has shown repeatedly that Sam’s choices are not the correct ones,
We definitely saw a different season 5. The one I watched had Dean telling Sam to pick a hemisphere and stay there so they never crossed paths again. The one I saw had Dean deciding to say yes to Michael because he was so sure Sam would say yes to Lucifer. The one I saw had Dean trusting CROWLEY when he said Sam shouldn't go along to kidnap what turned out to be Brady. The season 5 I saw had Bobby telling Dean how Sam stood there and saved civilians and then had to reiterate that it was true because Dean was skeptical. The only time outside of Swan Song that Dean was ready to do whatever Sam wanted was when Sam basically said "Hey, we have Famine and a boatload of demons in town. You better tie me up so I don't feed." To be fair Dean didn't do what Sam wanted, he waited until CASTIEL agreed it was a good idea and Bobby chimed in that there was no other option and Death had told him to do it.

As for Sam's decision making abilities, WOW do we disagree. Yes, he screwed up massively with Ruby. I counter with Dean selling his soul was not a high point in decision making.

As for Sam's other decisions I'll be sure to tell my daughter, who got her masters degree last year, that she made a horrible, terrible choice. No really, are we blaming Sam for going to college when he was academically inclined? Are you blaming him for deciding to find the thing that killed Jess? If so, why was it okay for DEAN to decide to find the thing that killed Mom? Are you saying that Sam SHOULD have committed patricide in Devil's Trap? Admittedly he didn't know that the angels had concocted the universe's most convoluted plan A. )Make John and Mary fall in Love B)Kill John and get Mary to trade Sam for John C.) Kill Mary so John goes on a vengeance quest D) Get John to sell his soul so Dean can be depressed E) Kill Sam so Dean sells his soul F) Make certain Ruby, Lilith's ally escapes Hell G) Dean dies H) Ruby shows Sam how to kill demons and prepare to release Lucifer I) Have Dean break in Hell, leave him there to stew and then "rescue" him J) season 4-5).

Perhaps Sam should have done what Azazel wanted and murdered Jake when he was incapacitated. Cold blooded murder is a good idea, right? Or would it just have been the first crack in Sam's turn darkside? Should Sam have decided NOT to try and save Dean? "Hey bro, sorry about the Hell thing and all, but I'm alive so everything is good,". As it turned out he shouldn't have trusted Ruby, but for a while DEAN trusted Ruby. He left Ruby in charge of Anna's safety and he trusted that Ruby would turn herself over to be tortured and not give away the real plan to save Anna. Why is it okay when Dean trusts Ruby? Sam was wrong, wrong, wrong to lie to Dean and he made plenty of mistakes, but your statement that Sam has never made a good decision in his life is terribly just plain wrong.

Quote:
Sam certainly has given Dean a lot reason over the years to trust him less, than say Bobby or Cass.
Bobby I can go along with, Cas is an entirely different story. Cas gets away with a lot because Dean is unaware of the ways in which Cas has betrayed him. Dean made a personal deal with Cas that he would work for the angels if Cas would keep Sam out of the Apocalypse. Cas agreed and then immediately let Sam out of the panic room in put him back into the Apocalypse. Cas sent Sam and Dean into another universe as a diversion without their knowledge. Cas changed time to gather human souls as ammunition. In both these cases he fixed the responsibility on Balthazar instead of admitting his own complicity. He released Sam from Hell, but upon discovering that something was wrong, he washed his hand of any responsibility. He allowed Crowley to take credit for Sam's soulless resurrection and I really don't know if Dean is aware that Cas was actually responsible. Dean may think he has been betrayed more by Sam, but I think it is inaccurate to say that he has actually BEEN betrayed more by Sam.

I did enjoy your analysis of how the season may end. You have interesting ideas and I do enjoy theorizing. Thank you for an interesting article and an active discussion.
Sablegreen
# Sablegreen 2012-04-19 16:45
Your welcome! I enjoyed writing the article. Here's hoping some of the discussion will even be correct!
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-04-18 12:50
I see little point with the brothers relationship until the show gets out of the habit of telling us Dean right and Sam wrong.And it will of course depend on what Jeremy Carver wants to do and what he has to do?.
Also there is the Castiel factor with the show creating a 'brother' relationship between him and Dean that cannot be ignored or dismissed because it has been put out there has canon.

Sam was put in a no win situation back in season 4 where the brothers relationship is concerned and also because of Dean's view being the prominant one it created a picture of one way traffic that has IMO left Sam behind.
I am not sure what they can do here because 4 yrs of storytelling cant be wiped out or how Sam has 'hurt' Dean in every wrong decision he has made that has resulted in the writers approach to Sam and his relationship with his brother.

.Season 8 can go back to the less angst but it is a little too late to undo some unnecessary damage done in regards to Sam within this whole relationship with Dean IMO .
Sablegreen
# Sablegreen 2012-04-18 14:06
Quote:

Sam was put in a no win situation back in season 4 where the brothers relationship is concerned and also because of Dean's view being the prominant one it created a picture of one way traffic that has IMO left Sam behind.
Not sure what you mean by Sam being in a no win situation. That has always implied to me that an individual didn’t have a choice in his action. Sam did have a choice, either follow Ruby or follow Dean. And he chose Ruby.

If you mean he had no choice because of how the writers wrote him, I agree. The writers were on a 'brother vs. brother' arc which I have never liked and for me, never should have been put in the series.

As for ‘left Sam behind’, if you mean his character hasn’t changed much, I agree again. But I don’t agree that it’s too late to change Sam’s character. In literature, characters change all the time and Carver is very good at character development. I don’t think it’s too late at all.
cd28
# cd28 2012-04-18 19:36
This is to both Sharon and Sablegreen:

Quote:
Sam did have a choice, either follow Ruby or follow Dean. And he chose Ruby.
No, Sam had a third choice. That was to follow Sam, and that's what Sam did. He listened to what Dean said, he listened to what Ruby said, and he chose the path that seemed most right to him. Hindsight is 20/20, but at the time, none of the characters knew for certain whether Sam should use his powers against Lilith or not. Even Bobby argued once that they should let Sam use his powers to stop Lilith and the Apocalypse. Sam knew the power came from an evil source, but the Winchesters have a long history of making pacts with evil with good intentions (John's deal with YED, Dean's deal with the demon, Dean working with Crowley, Cas working with Crowley, Sam and Dean letting the Leviathan go in the last episode, Dean working with Meg a couple of episodes ago - just to name a few examples).

For the characters, it was unknown which was the right decision for Sam, and like the rest of the Winchesters, he let emotions influence his decision and he chose poorly.

Honestly, I don't think the show has been anywhere near as unfair to Sam (in terms of portraying him negatively - the lack of POV is a different issue) as some fans have been, but that's up to us - to ignore fans who can't forgive. There are lots of fans like myself who understand what Sam did just fine - we just aren't noticed as much because we don't spread hate everywhere we go.

In terms of changing characters - both Sam and Dean - I agree with the comment that the characters just need to get over the past and start fresh. To me, that's much more believable than the idea that Dean would still be holding a grudge over something that happened years ago and wasn't even an intentional slight toward Dean on Sam's part. I don't think showing that Dean still doesn't trust Dean does much for Dean's character - it paints him as someone who can't forgive - not a trait I admire.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-04-18 20:21
I agree that the show hasn't been nearly as hard on Sam as some of the fans think or as hard as some of the fans have been. I think Sam made an incredibly poor decision (that like you said even Bobby considered and Dean was all for killing Lilith he just wouldn't have anything to do with Ruby) but more than redeemed himself for in my eyes and in Dean's eyes as well IMO.

I don't think Dean is "holding a grudge" but I do think he has been worn down by everything that has happened over the last few years and is having trouble seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. But I really do think this season has been working towards a path of renewal-but I guess we won't know until the end of the season.
cd28
# cd28 2012-04-18 20:33
Quote:
I don't think Dean is "holding a grudge" but I do think he has been worn down by everything that has happened over the last few years and is having trouble seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. But I really do think this season has been working towards a path of renewal-but I guess we won't know until the end of the season.
Fair enough. My last comment was mostly a response after reading some discussion somewhere on this site on whether Dean trusts Sam (which maybe should stay as a different discussion).
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-04-19 16:51
Quote:
Quote:

Sam was put in a no win situation back in season 4 where the brothers relationship is concerned and also because of Dean's view being the prominant one it created a picture of one way traffic that has IMO left Sam behind.
Not sure what you mean by Sam being in a no win situation. That has always implied to me that an individual didn’t have a choice in his action. Sam did have a choice, either follow Ruby or follow Dean. And he chose Ruby.

If you mean he had no choice because of how the writers wrote him, I agree. The writers were on a 'brother vs. brother' arc which I have never liked and for me, never should have been put in the series.

As for ‘left Sam behind’, if you mean his character hasn’t changed much, I agree again. But I don’t agree that it’s too late to change Sam’s character. In literature, characters change all the time and Carver is very good at character development. I don’t think it’s too late at all.
Sablegreen you have totally misunderstood my post.

When I said no win situation I meant with some fans which you have proven with your views of Sam.
When I said left behind I didnt mean Sam.s character or it is to late to change as if he is some faulted human being that needs fixing because he is all wrong that is your myopic view and one of many of which I have not agreed with.

I was talking about POV that despite some views this brothers relationship hasnt been A ONE WAY STREET that some fans including yourself seem to think that it has been ,all Sam doing the wrong or hurting while Dean has been a innocent which is so far from the truth .
With all due respect I have no interest in your views of Sam in the future you clearly have a low view of him and a blind spot with Dean which is fine but not my cup of tea I am afraid.
Sablegreen
# Sablegreen 2012-04-19 17:09
Thanks for your opinion and I agree, we don't have to see everything the same. If we did it would be a boring world.

Thanks for your response.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-04-20 07:50
Quote:
Sablegreen you have totally misunderstood my post.

When I said no win situation I meant with some fans which you have proven with your views of Sam.
When I said left behind I didnt mean Sam.s character or it is to late to change as if he is some faulted human being that needs fixing because he is all wrong that is your myopic view and one of many of which I have not agreed with.

I was talking about POV that despite some views this brothers relationship hasnt been A ONE WAY STREET that some fans including yourself seem to think that it has been ,all Sam doing the wrong or hurting while Dean has been a innocent which is so far from the truth .
With all due respect I have no interest in your views of Sam in the future you clearly have a low view of him and a blind spot with Dean which is fine but not my cup of tea I am afraid.
Then I’m afraid I misunderstood your post as well, Sharon because having read it I assumed you meant the show put Sam into a no win situation, which it clearly hasn’t. The fact that there are so many comments here and elsewhere in relation to how Dean also hurts Sam and detailing his role in various volatile situations surely shows that this ‘one way street’ is not the route the show has been taking.

However, is Sam in a no-win situation with some fans? Of course he is, and has been from day one but Sharon, why on earth are you investing so much energy in what these 'fans' think? Dean is in a no-win situation with some fans, as is Castiel, and Bobby and John and pretty much every character on the show. However, Sablegreen does not control what these fans think so why is she being held up as a representative of all those fans who are seemingly ‘myopic’?

In relation to your allegation that Sablegreen has a low opinion of Sam, might I suggest you read other comments and articles by her where there is ample evidence that this is not the case. In many ways, Sablegreen is in a much more difficult position than those who comment. As a writer, she must maintain a degree of impartiality in her articles, which she has done. She gave equal time and consideration to both Sam and Dean in this article and elsewhere. In fact, until I read your comment I didn’t even consider the possibility that Sablegreen might have a preference for one brother over the other.

However, if she does have a favourite, then what of it? Does that render her opinion about other characters irrelevant? I didn't think this site was so sectarian that we now feel we can judge, label and dismiss anyone who does not share the same ethos as we do?

Sablegreen has a different interpretation of a situation than you; that is all. How on earth does that translate to her having a low opinion of Sam? Your comments show a leaning toward Sam so does that mean you have a low opinion of Dean? Should we even be interested in your views if that is the case?

And Sharon, would you not consider only wanting to read the opinions of people who agree with you and dismissing those who don’t, to also be 'myopic'?
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-04-20 08:20
Well Tim not that I have to explain myself but I do consider other opinions I rarely if at all use the word myopic if you didnt like that then there isnt much I can do about it.Neither do I consider my opinion any less than anybody elses if you feel you are here to police people's posts or the words they use then that is up to you.

At no stage have I ever suggested my view is correct it is just my view as it is everybody;s elses but seeing though you think you are obviously here to tell me off like a child in public then worry not TIM you have firmly put me in my place so in the future I will not open my mouth in case you decide you dislike my opinion and tell me off again in public because you didnt like what was said there is alot things I dont like that is said but wouldnt consider policing

I fully accept Sablegreen sees things differently has do I .But I stand by all my views Tim wether that make's me right or wrong or a bad person in the eyes of some .
Sablegreen
# Sablegreen 2012-04-20 10:48
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. We have agreed to disagree and that ends the discussion. In the future please feel free to not read my articles if they upset you. I realize my views are not for everyone and no one deserves to be unhappy. That is not the purpose of any article I write.

Thanks for reading and if you have any speculation, please feel free to post it.
Sablegreen
# Sablegreen 2012-04-20 10:36
Thanks Tim, I appreciate the support, but I really want to keep the comments on speculation here. I have no problem with others expressing their views. They sort of got off course, I requested they stop and they did. End of story.

But I thought you would have lots of speculation to share. Sorry you got pulled in the wrong discussion.

I'd still like to hear it if you want to share.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-04-20 18:55
Sorry Sablegreen. I was reading and speculating and writing at the same time and then I found the last of the Easter Egg stash and what can I say? Priorities, like..... And then before I knew it, back to work!

And apologies for straying off topic. Won’t happen again.

I don’t know if these are actual speculations, more what I’d like to see happen (and given that I’m coming in at the tail end of the conversation, there is going to be a lot of repetition here)

The Leviathans: I’m thinking they will be gone by the end of the season. I’m not overly enamoured with them because they almost seem to be too distant from the boys. Eve as a protagonist suffered in the same way. We don’t care about them because the boys don’t really care about them. They lack the personal touch of demons and Lucifer who were truly frightening, knew how to mess with their heads and were something only Sam and Dean could deal with. Any hunter, even Garth, could deal with the Leviathans. I know there are similarities between the Leviathans and demons, in that they both inhabit (in a way) people but as they are at the moment (ie not replicating Sam and Dean); they’re not scary. Anyone with a bucket of borax and a sharp knife could deal with them. I mean, if that knowledge got out then the Leviathans would become more of an inconvenience than a truly evil foe.

I’m also thinking, with the news that Gamble will no longer be showrunner next year that the Leviathans will be gone in five weeks time. They are her baby and I think she’s professional enough to try and leave as much of a clean slate as possible for the incoming showrunner. If Carver has to tie up the Castiel, Bobby, Sam, Dean and Leviathan issues next season there won’t be any opportunity for him to put his own stamp of the show.

I’m hoping they’re going to be put back into Purgatory and not be killed. Not only would it be a huge task to kill all of them, given that they don’t know who they are (though I sometimes wonder if, like with Eve, when you kill the head does the rest follow ie if Dick Roman is killed will all the other Leviathans vamoose?), what are they going to do with all the Leviathan body parts? Dropping them all into the ocean really isn’t an option. Also, surely killing off all the Leviathans would be like killing off all the angels or all the demons; it would seriously unbalance the force (and that’s way too Star Wars-like) and we’ve seen the consequences of that happening already.

If there is going to be a Dick Roman kill, I do think it will Dean who gets it. He did promise to do it and he is due one.

However..... I think the show missed a huge opportunity by not making Castiel the big bag of the season because, due to his relationship with the brothers, he would bring the personal touch to villainess that the show has been missing for the last 2 seasons. Were it not for the fact that Sam and Dean are both fecked up in the head at the moment, then the Leviathans would be just another monster of the day. (On an aside, I’m also curious of what happened to the souls that Castiel consumed at the end of season 6. Are they all gone completely now, no chance of ascension into heaven and all that. So is Purgatory completely empty?)

Archangels: I don’t know if its archangels outside of the four we know (did, at one stage, the show say there were just four archangels?) or are they going to introduce new ones. The thought of their reappearance doesn’t excite because, for me, it’d read as a case of ten steps backwards. I certainly hope Michael is not one of those archangels because (a) it could reopen the door for an appearance of Lucifer and (b) it could reopen the door of Dean saying yes to Michael and I cannot conceive Dean saying yes to Michael in any situation. What on earth could be gained from it? He spent the 4th and 5th seasons trying to kill the fecking things? Honestly, if Dean says yes to Michael I’ll be phenomenally disappointed (and pissed) with him and the show. I’m hoping that either Sam or Dean will get a phonecall from Michael saying ‘Hi guys, Adam is in heaven and always was. Sorry for messing with you for so long. Bye now.’ and that’s it for the archangels.

I'm also thinking that the angels want the Leviathans back in Purgatory. They are all about keeping to the plan etc and I doubt releasing the Leviathans was ever part of the story. Perhaps this is why the archangels are coming back, to make sure they go back.

Adam in the pit is really the biggest ‘this has to be dealt with’ of the seasons so far. Forget the amulet or the Impala, this one has to be resolved because the idea that a Winchester could be in the Cage for years now without even a word of mention from Sam and Dean, who go out of their way to help strangers, is the biggest aberration of their characters so far. Sera Gamble did say at the start of the year that they would deal with Adam so maybe. (Oooh, the next big bad??)

Bobby: I’m really undecided about this because he could go either way. His bitterness etc at his death and knowledge of the supernatural might ramp up his transition to the evil ghost side (another possible foe for Sam and Dean next year?) or it could go the opposite way and neuter his potentially evil spirit side. How do I want him to end up? I don’t know about that either. A part of me was hugely satisfied with the death that he got (died in the field, protecting the boys etc) but I also want him back so as to alleviate the boys pain.

I don’t want him to be a ghost on their shoulder next season though. Not only because it will be cheap and easy but because it will always be in their minds that maybe Bobby could turn and they’ll be forced to kill him so instead of focussing on fixing themselves and each other, they’d always have the weight of that on their minds, prohibiting them from moving on. That knowledge about Sam almost finished Dean. How are they meant to find happiness and peace when it’s always at the back of their mind that they might have to kill Bobby?

I think when he finishes dealing with the Leviathans he’s going to choose to move on (though I also said this after Death’s Door). I don’t see Bobby as the hanging onto the doorframe of the afterlife kinda guy. Perhaps the final episode this season will have Bobby asking Dean to burn the flask so Bobby can rest. I’m hoping if this does happen then he will have a moment with Dean (and Sam) in relation to the remarkable, worthy life they’ve led ala the one he got from the reaper in Death’s Door. They definitely need to hear it and yes, it’d be schmaltzy beyond belief but hey, if it works!

Castiel: I think he’s going to survive the season intact. (I’ve just signed his death warrant with that statement, haven’t I?). He’ll do whatever he can to help the boys deal with the Leviathans, possibly at great expense to himself because SPN redemption doesn’t come in small sizes. I think this might tie in with the archangel return who may then grant Castiel access to heaven for his help. I don’t want an angel around in the long term and I definitely don’t want Castiel to go human, sorry.

Sam and Dean: Really need to spend more time together for the rest of the season, like conjoined twins together. They’ve been apart in more ways than one this season (who am I kidding, for the last 4 seasons) so how the hell can they hope to help each other?

I think the Sam hell storyline is essentially over which, while it was abrupt, now leaves the door open for a new storyline for him, one that doesn’t entail him being anything other than wholly Sam, not possessed or evil or junkied or nutso. Hell, I don't even want him to get the flu for the rest of the season.

I don’t think Dean’s current storyline is over yet. In many ways his hurts are deeper rooted than Sams so, while I know that all storylines end in one episode, a snap of the fingers conclusion isn’t going to work with Deans. He (and we) needs a lot more moments like what we saw at the end of Plucky Pennywhistles to give Dean a bit of joy and purpose in life again.

So, in short: Leviathans = back in Purgatory, Dick Roman = headless, Frank = still alive (he's too paranoid to ever be killed) Bobby = gone, Castiel = around but is no longer cut off from heaven (though he'll have some explaining to do when he gets there), Sam and Dean = on the up. Oh wait, that’s not a cliffhanger. Sod it.
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2012-04-18 12:50
Well that opens up a few possibilities. Archangels are so cool, they are bad ass. Wouldn't it be great if Gabriel were to come back? Although I agree with most people that Sam & Dean should be the ones that defeat the leviathans. Yes with help, but mainly them. And Baby should have been returned to us way sooner than the last two episodes!

I will also be glad if Adam is finally released from Hell. Although it does bring up the question as to where his soul is. Maybe Michael only took over his body, but his soul is in Heaven. Either way, that would be an interesting resolution to Michael/Adam.

Thanks for these little spoilers Sablegreen. You give us just enough to whet our appetite.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-04-18 13:37
Yeah I would be good if Adam's soul was back in heaven, I really don't care if Michael has to spend eternity with Lucifer-lol. But I don't think that can be where he is now, because Sam and Adam were both vessels who fell so if Sam was in the cage than Adam would have to be in the cage I think too. I'm hoping that Michael has been protecting him though because otherwise he's would be in A LOT worse shape than Sam was and he is not really as strong as Sam IMO.
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2012-04-18 14:49
Poor Adam never asked to be dragged back from the dead to be used in such a foul manner. He was promised a reunion with his mother if he accepted be to be Michael's vessel, so I hope that the host of Heaven made good on their promise, otherwise shame on them.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-04-18 15:24
Yeah, like I said that was my only real gripe with SS. I mean OBVIOUSLY I was even more upset when Sam and Dean went to hell but they got out. I hate the thought of him still being tortured down there, so if there was a way to get him back to heaven with his mom I'm ALL for it.
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-04-18 17:02
Actually, Adam agreed twice to being a vessel. The first time, he thought he was saving half the world, and he was well aware that his choice would cause the brothers problems and he didn't care. He let Zach in while he was dreaming, reinforcing this first decision. He didn't care about Sam and Dean and said so quite emphatically.

The second time, I have no idea why he accepted ... nor do I know why he couldn't get out of the door, since he was ahead of Dean when Dean went to get Sam.

I could care less where Adam is now, although I have always filled in the blanks that his soul was returned to Heaven by Michael before he reached the cage.

Yeah, I fanwanked in the hopes of never seeing that character again. I admit it.
Bevie
# Bevie 2012-04-18 14:22
Interesting article.

A few things I would like to see in the future of the show. The return of Gabriel. How I love that trickster angel! Cas was resurrected twice, so why not Gabe? He died for the right cause, as did Cas, and deserves to come back.

Bobby to be human again. Even if Crowley does it in gratitude for the boys help with the Levis.

The boys defeat Dick and the Levis THEMSELVES, and not by angelic or demonic means, except for assistance, perhaps. Goodness, let them WIN for a change! And I don't want Dean possessed by Michael or any other supernatural being, but be his own badass self doing it!

THE RELATIONSHIP BACK as it was at the end of Season 3. Loving and trusting each other again. That was the heart of the show at the beginning and what grabbed my attention and that is why I'm still here with them and never leaving.

Would like to see Adam released back to heaven and his mom, and not have to think about him locked in the cage with Lucifer.

Jeremy Carver wrote the relationship beautifully before and I'm hoping he hasn't forgotten how to do that.
gunznammo2
# gunznammo2 2012-04-18 18:49
Quote:
The thing that I am pinning my hopes on with Carver is that he 'gets' both Sam and Dean's characters and I like his efficient use of dialogue to tell a story. My biggest hope, though, is that the two lead characters once again drive the plot and not visa versus as now. I think that will put the brothers' relationship back on the table again and restore the original premise of the series, which is horror/drama and nor popcorn horror/soap.
That's exactly my way of thinking, as well. Thank you.

I'll go a bit further; I don't really want Cas back next season. In all the episodes I watched, I never got the impression that he was a part of the family or even a friend. Except for the the ability he had to jump Dean (and Sam) into the future, most of the scenes he was in could have been played by Bobby and the show's progression would not have suffered in the least. He's harmed the brothers more that helped them.

My own opinion, most definitely, and probably not very popular, but any redemption he receives will always be overshadowed by the terrible things he's done to the brothers. (I'm terribly protective of my boys)

I shall not give up on Show. After all, it has Sam and Dean Winchester. I just hate having to cringe when Cas is on. I wish I liked him....might make Seasons 5 and 6 more bearable. :sad:

Sorry about the rant. I just want my brothers back. If TPTB are going to go back to a MOTW format, that's more than good enough for me. Dean and his baby brother, Sam, and their relationship is what I fell in love with. Oh, to have that back in all its glory!! One can dream.
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-04-18 21:36
@ gunznammo2: I'll be honest and say that I was hoping both Bobby and Cas were gone and new characters would be developed. I have explained the reason why regarding Bobby in various posts.

As for Cas, I really liked the developing friendship of Dean and Cas in S4. I think his story should have ended there. In S5, Dean played straight man for Cas's jokes and I didn't really see a purpose for his role, other than to zap them around or provide a magic fix, because Misha was under contract and they had to pay him.

I really, really did not like giving S6 to a support character, especially when Dean could have not been in the show and it would have made no difference in the price of oats one way or another. In the end, though, both Sam and Dean turned out to be support characters in their show, because the story was about Cas being corrupted by power and poor decisions, not to mention the incredible things he did to Sam and Dean that they are spending a year having to work through (and us fans right along with them -- meaning Sam and his hellpain and Dean and his depression...an d that's not even getting into the mass murders on Earth and in Heaven). That did it for me with Cas. That's a lot of bad to overlook in a character if he is, in fact, brought back into the fold.

At this point, I consider Cas and I as having broke up, but we can still occasionally talk to each other if need be. That is: unless he turns out to be the supernatural fix the boys always need to solve a problem or if he becomes the Winchester in the back seat. I almost puked when Dean called him brother. (Seriously, how many illegitimate brothers are there out there?) I will not like that one bit because; I, too, want the two leads back being the proactive, badass, experienced, battle weary hunters they are supposed to be. They are too old to need Daddy anymore, and if they can't hunt w/o supernatural assistance, they need to hang up their salt guns and let Garth hunt.

That's my rant in response to your rant. But, oh yes, don't we all love the brothers. I'll take them any way I can get them.
PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2012-04-18 23:28
Well, no matter what they do going forward, I wish the network would GUARANTEE three more years. Then they could plan the story all the way through; and Jared & Jensen can get their Butch and Sundance ending for sure
Blue Steel
# Blue Steel 2012-04-19 04:35
I really just want Sam and Dean and their relationship. I don't even need the Impala if we have that.


It's because we haven't had that that this season has felt like such a failure on the emotional level (sure, SPN still amuses on a surface level - SPN is entertaining). SPN fails on the dramatic-emotio nal level which used to be a strength of this show. I feel like SPN has become Seinfeld - a show about nothing. And that it too bad.

Watching Sam's mental suffering be used as an excuse to feel sorry for poor Dean and the weight on his shoulders has made me want to throttle Dean several times over this season. Just, wow. Wow. I'd never want Dean to be my brother based on his reaction to Sam having a psychotic break from his Wall being ripped apart. Never. It's like he only cared about the mess Sam would make and he'd have to clean up. Ugh. On one level, yes, Dean would have to watch out for Sam, given Sam's circumstances. But that shouldn't be a trust issue, not when Sam sucked it all up to take care of *Dean* all season long, with Sam only really failing in *one* episode the entire time. Seriously.

What I wanted was to see Dean care about Sam the Person. And he didn't do that. So, as far as I'm concerned Dean hasn't earned being in *my* family yet. Sorry, Dean. I viewed Sam as having an injury this season, and I wanted to see Dean actually care about Sam being injured in that way, in his head. What I got was a Dean totally self-obsessed and complaining, constantly, about everything. With little thought or concern for how Sam was doing, what Sam remembered from hell, anything at all concerning how Sam might feel about his life. Dean didn't care, but I did. And this is the "story" I'm stuck with this season.


I think Jeremy Carver is a good writer, but he swallowed the anti-Sam kool-aid in seasons 4 and 5, so I won't trust him until the episodes air. ITB cut Sam out nearly entirely. I will never, ever, forgive Sam being cut out of such a huge family episode. That episode also set up the racist (angel vs demon = Sam = Dark), negative, dehumanizing slanting against Sam's character that has warped this show and this fandom ever since. ITB was a hate bomb launched against Sam. And it is a bomb that is still exploding.

Why do you think the writers all blow off Sam having any serious injuries of any sort? Because treating Sam like a human being would force them to acknowledge that Sam is just as much a person with a life as Dean is. And apparently, they don't want to do that. And this is why SPN is not about Family or Brothers anymore. It's about Dean's Mood Swings. Sam is just there to solve cases.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2012-04-19 09:34
"The last half of s5 was a mess and s6 was even worse especially for brotherly bonding. Sam certainly has given Dean a lot reason over the years to trust him less, than say Bobby or Cass. Dean certainly seems reluctant to confide in Sam and given what has happened in the past it’s understandable. That adds much more stress to Dean’s psyche and much more strain on the boys bonding. Dean needs either Bobby back, or Cass and I’m guessing it will be Bobby he turns too, even as a ghost."

Dean has never confided in Sam or shared emotion with him. In the pilot he said "no chick flick moments" so if he expects Sam to confide in him he has to return the favor.

I don't think Dean needs Cas back. Cas was Dean's Ruby and manipulated him from day 1.
I'm not sure I want Bobby to return either. He got a great send-off so why destroy that by bringing him back?

I'm bored with the angels and want them to go away. If they end the Levi story and send all the angels away, I will be very happy.

I hope Carver goes back to the core of the show and writes stories for BOTH brothers. I've never understood why it hasn't been that way since the beginning of season 4.
Sablegreen
# Sablegreen 2012-04-19 13:04
Thanks for the comments; let’s see if I can answer any of them.

Cd28 and Kelly-
I really think some of your statements are a bit unfair.

Sam's third choice would have been to do nothing. He didn't do that either. He chose the path the angels knew he would because of the character traits Sam had been given, and they kept Dean locked up so he couldn't stop his brother from making that mistake.

Bottom line, Sam chose the love of a demon over the love of a brother that has cared for him since he carried Sam from the burning building. Sam chose very poorly and it’s not the first time he has either. All humans make mistakes, that’s what makes them human, but the series just never seems to let Sam rise above them. And that is wrong.

Sam’s betrayal is not easily forgotten especially for Dean. He gives 100% to his friends and family and all he asks for in return is to be accepted. That's why he feels such guilt whenever someone dies under his charge and so hurt when he is rejected and why it takes him so long to accept it when either of those happens. I think some would call that being a hopeless romantic. LOL

And this is not the first time Sam has let Dean down, and yes it was an intentional slight. TPTB made it that way. The series has written Sam in a negative fashion for a long time. I have never understood why the series did that, nor why anyone was happy with them doing it. They have long portrayed Sam as being angry with Dean for his life. That is unfair to both boys. Neither had a choice in the hand they were dealt. All they could do was work with what they had.

And if Dean was holding a grudge, he would have left Sam long ago. He certainly wouldn't have spent a year trying to get him out of the cage or gone to the lengths he did to get Sam's soul back, and then stick by Sam through his hallucinations and eventually find a way to permanently cure him.

I'm on a few Dean based sites and you have no idea how many are tired of Dean constantly cleaning up after Sam, how many wanted Dean to just leave Sam in the cage...then to not go looking for him when he took off because of Amy and certainly not help him out of the hospital.

Those views are as wrong as anyone thinking Dean has a grudge or is a poor brother, or is not concerned about Sam. Dean has always been portrayed as being there for Sam. Sam has not been portrayed the same. JP has even recently said he wants Sam to be a hero again.

This is the fault of TPTB and their brother vs brother theme they started and now don't seem to be able to stop. I blame them for the rift between fans and they do nothing to resolve it either.

Carver has a history of being fair to both characters, so hopefully we will see a lot of that get better so both sides can like both brothers. It would certainly go a long way to fixing the show.


Sylvie and Bevie-
If Adam is released that’s fine with me…as long as he doesn’t give the boys any grief and is reunited with his mom. I always like his character and his linage was not his fault. It’s the Winchester curse. LOL
However the recent synopsis they released for 7.22, tends to dispel any further cage involvement in the show and I’m fine with that. I was very disappointed with s5 and s6, so, for me, the sooner the series puts it behind them the better.

I’m going to say, I really think the series has forgotten about Adam though and that he will become one of the unresolved plot holes the series has. Just my opinion though. And I hope I’m wrong.

gunznammo2 –
I disagree about Cass. I’d like to see him back occasionally. It’s true he did do some bad things but in all fairness he really was programmed to follow orders and once he stopped that he became better, I think. And he did help the boys too. True his arrogance cause a BIG split between him and Dean, a BIG problem with the levies and reduced the boys to cheerleaders in the finale of s6, which I also didn’t like. But it’s not uncommon for a cliffhanger to be a supporting character that the main leads really like…and after all how many times can we watch Dean and Sam die, or be in some kind of trouble? We know anything they are involved with will always be resolved, so how much of a cliffhanger would that be anymore?

And Carver is all about internal conflict so I can see him doing a lot with Cas trying to regain Dean’s trust. I think it would be interesting to see. Maybe like some have speculated, he will be stripped of his powers and forced to be on earth as human. That would be interesting too.

PENNY JAIME –
Guarantee the series three more years? The network can't even guarantee themselves three more years! They are not doing well right now, but hopefully Mark P can help that. I think they still have 3-4 years left on the 10 yr contact they have with WB and CBS.

Blue Steel –
Well I’d want Dean to be my brother anytime! And for all the reasons I have mentioned in other posts. Dean showed nothing but compassion and love toward Sam through his whole hellpain issue. And as for people feeling sorry for Dean because of Sam’s hallucinations, please remember we are supposed to think Sam was capable of flipping out of reality without warning because of them. In one case we saw Sam recklessly brandishing and shooting a gun in a warehouse and almost killed his brother by mistake. And Dean after talking him down actually gave Sam back the gun! That took a lot of courage and love.

And he continued to hunt with Sam…knowing that at any time, Sam might be incapable of being Dean’s back up through no fault of his own. That’s scary for a hunter. Sam was a danger to himself and everyone around him, so if people felt sympathy toward Dean because of the situation Sam’s condition put him in, I can understand it. It was a hard road to walk. He wanted his brother back enough to find a way to get him his soul back, and stuck with him through thick and thin until he found him a permanent solution. I think it was wonderful of him to stick by his brother under those conditions. I dare say, I bet many hunters would not do that. Throttle him?...no, give him a medal, yes.

Carver is an excellent writer and in his episodes he has shown equal treatment of both brothers. He many have an episode be primarily about one brother one week and the other bro the next. Big difference with Carver, is when one bro is highlighted, the other is not degraded. He showed equal respect and growth for both characters.

Jo1027 –The "no chick flick moments" was not a slam on Sam if that’s what you mean. It’s men being silly about emotion between men..like when Bobby said he wanted to stop the serious talk Dean and Sam were having with him in TCCODW by saying he wanted to leave’ before we grow girly parts.’

And Dean has confided in Sam, it just didn’t work out to good. Also a lot has to do with Dean protecting Sam which is a habit he has grown into raising Sam and one Sam really relies on whether he realizes it or not. Dean is Sam’s rock and that’s why.

To all posters:
Just a note: I wrote the article for fun and speculation on how you think the season will end. We all agree that there are problems with how the brothers have been written. I’ve read that the J2s also think things can be improved, though what they were referring to was not elaborated on. So let’s table the brother discussion until we see what Carver can do. Many feel it’s likely he had a hand in the ending of this season, so maybe some of those issues will be addressed in the finale. If not, we still have very good prospects for s8.

And anyone else with cool speculation let us hear it! I LOVE this stuff!
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-04-19 13:30
I'll happily table this since I don't think we'll ever have a meeting of the minds on this. Since we obviously see the show and the characters completely differently.
Thanks for the updates though, there was a lot of info I wasn't aware of.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-04-19 15:18
Quote:
Bottom line, Sam chose the love of a demon over the love of a brother that has cared for him since he carried Sam from the burning building. Sam chose very poorly and it’s not the first time he has either. All humans make mistakes, that’s what makes them human, but the series just never seems to let Sam rise above them. And that is wrong.
This is a GROSS misrepresentation of what Sam did, IMHO. I don't believe that Sam ever loved Ruby nor did he think he loved her. He chose the only tool he thought would work to take down Lilith over Dean's request that they take down Lilith without Ruby. That situation was more like choosing between going into a fight with an heavily armed assailant without a gun or with a gun. Ruby was providing Sam with a proven tool to stop Lilith. Sam didn't want Ruby by his side, he wanted Dean. He asked Dean to be by his side. Yes, he thought he needed Ruby. The irony is that he didn't and leaving Ruby wouldn't have changed one thing about the Apocalypse. If Sam had gone after Lilith with Dean and the knife, Lilith would have let him kill her and Lucifer would have been released anyway.

Sam also "chose" his addiction. That is a little difficult to pin on him because we don't know how he started drinking her blood. Since there were no records about the effects of drinking demon blood, Sam would have had NO IDEA that it was addictive. Icky, yes. It increased his powers, sure. It also SAVED PEOPLE'S LIVES. Sam's ability to exorcise demons with his powers left the host alive 80% of the time according to canon. The other options were finding a demon drawing a devil's trap and exorcising them (time consuming and needing to know exactly where to look for demons) or using the knife which killed the victims 100% of the time. For heaven's sake, we saw Castiel just waiting to kill 2,000 people when Samhain was released. Sam, using Ruby's blood, stopped 2,000 deaths. Sam wasn't choosing the love of a demon over the love of Dean he thought he was choosing saving people over not saving them. He was wrong, but that had far more to do with not having all the facts, particularly in regard to Lilith, facts which Castiel (Mr. he never betrayed anyone THAT much) withheld.

Quote:
And Dean has confided in Sam, it just didn’t work out to good.
I'm assuming you are responding here to Sam's calling Dean weak in both Sex and Violence and in Levee. If you are referring to S&V you are ignoring the fact that Dean was trying to KILL Sam at the time. Both boys were working under the spell of something that pushed them beyond their limits. Unless you are contending that Dean really wants Sam dead, I think this is a no go. However, I can argue that even under the siren's spell, Sam did NOT betray Dean's most guilty admittance. He did not call Dean a torturer. He did not taunt Dean, who was holding an ax in his hand that maybe Dean would like to return to enjoying inflicting pain on Sam before he killed him. Dean's largest guilt came from torturing in Hell and enjoying it. Sam has never used that against him.

OTOH, Sam's biggest fear is being a freak, a monster, something Dean should hunt and kill. In season four Dean certainly didn't hesitate to whip that one out whenever he got mad at Sam. His breach of Sam's insecurities is a kind of betrayal. We were shown in After School Special that being considered a freak was a hot button for Sam, yet Dean uses that term for Sam constantly throughout the show. Which brings up an interesting point. Was Dean being deliberately cruel? I mean, if you have an overweight sister who is obsessed with that fact is calling her a "fatso" when you are "kidding" her really kidding or is it a passive aggressive way to hurt and diminish her? I don't think Dean was trying to hurt Sam when he called him a freak, I actually think that Dean's stated belief that he knows Sam inside and out isn't true. That Dean simply doesn't see Sam as a person in with different needs, and motivations from Dean.

Quote:
Those views are as wrong as anyone thinking Dean has a grudge or is a poor brother, or is not concerned about Sam. Dean has always been portrayed as being there for Sam. Sam has not been portrayed the same. JP has even recently said he wants Sam to be a hero again.
The paragraph above does talk about one way in which Dean wasn't there for Sam, but I also think that claiming Sam hasn't always been there for Dean is wildly exaggerated. If you are talking about college, that seems to have been mutual. Sam never answered Dean's would you have picked up question, but since he went with Dean as soon as Dean said he didn't need him but he wanted him I think Dean was acting from the fear of rejection. In the end, Sam was living in one spot, under his own name and had informed John and Dean of where he was living. Dean was going around the country, using aliases at will and changing phone numbers. I can't put too much blame on Sam here. In seasons 1-3 Sam was there for Dean for the most part. The parting of ways in Scarecrow was just that a mutual decision that they wanted to handle the situation in incompatible ways. And Sam did come back. He worked with Dean. He encouraged Dean to reconnect with Cassie. He did everything he could to save Dean in Faith. He put aside his own feelings about John's death and tried to help Dean work through his grief. Yes, in Hunted he decided that trying to find out why his own father wanted him murdered was more important than Dean's hurt feelings. I would probably be more concerned about preventing becoming some kind of monster too. In season three, Sam accompanied Dean on his Goodbye tour, allowing Dean to do what he needed and wanted to deal with the Deal. He learned how to fix the Impala and gave Dean the Christmas Dean wanted even when he was dying inside. In season four neither brother really supported each other due to their own issues. Sam did try to get Dean to talk about Hell, he was happy about Dean's hookup in Monster Movie. He was thrilled that the angels liked Dean even as they rejected Sam. Things spiraled down, but the first half of season four, Sam was not completely unsupportive. Season five was a mess. Sam defends himself exactly once, Dean treats Sam like dirt until Point of No Return. Even in season six SoullessSam opts to stay with Dean for reasons that he can't really define. You point out that Dean continues to hunt with SS who is a danger to him. SoullessSam considers Dean a liability who injects an annoying morality into the hunt, but he doesn't abandon him. When Sam gets his soul back he does his best to be a good partner and wants Dean to try again with Lisa. He helps Dean when Lisa is kidnapped. He faces the ravages of Hell to return to DEAN so Dean isn't alone. He only left Dean in season seven when he found out that Dean lied to him about Amy. Or rather that Dean lied when he said he trusted Sam's judgment about Amy.

I'm not seeing this great Sam is never there for Dean story that you are. I just don't.
MadisonWinchester
# MadisonWinchester 2012-04-19 15:20
You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

I have to strongly disagree that Sam chose the love of a Demon over the love of his brother. Sam wanted Dean to trust him, to go with him and Ruby to kill Lilith. Dean refused.

It was at that point that they had the fight and Dean called him a monster. Then Dean tells Sam that if he walked out that door to never come back.

Was Sam wrong? Of course he was and he made a terrible mistake. He spent all of season 5 making it up to Dean who didn't fully forgive him until PONR.

You say that Sam keeps making mistakes and doesn't rise above them or has hurt Dean for years. Other than Season 4, when has Sam betrayed or hurt Dean? Wanting to go to college is a betrayal? How?

You know what I love about the Sam character? Is his ability to love and forgive. He forgave Cas(though Cas doesn't deserve it. Cas needs to make it up to Sam not just Dean.) for hurting him. He even prayed to Cas in HCW and said that he still considered Cas to be one of them.

Yes, Cas shifted the hallucinations from Sam to himself. But IMO he still needs to do more.

I agree in GND it was stupid to have Sam just leave to go after Amy, I blame the writers for that.

I also don't think that Dean is holding a grudge, but I would like to see the trust back and the brotherly bonding back in season 8 and I think it will be.
cd28
# cd28 2012-04-19 15:58
Quote:

Cd28 and Kelly-
I really think some of your statements are a bit unfair.

Sam's third choice would have been to do nothing. He didn't do that either. He chose the path the angels knew he would because of the character traits Sam had been given, and they kept Dean locked up so he couldn't stop his brother from making that mistake.

Bottom line, Sam chose the love of a demon over the love of a brother that has cared for him since he carried Sam from the burning building. Sam chose very poorly and it’s not the first time he has either. All humans make mistakes, that’s what makes them human, but the series just never seems to let Sam rise above them. And that is wrong.
I don't think you're getting my point. By reducing Sam's decision to it being about "the love of a demon over the love of a brother," you're completely dismissing the idea that Sam's actions may have been about Sam choosing his own path. Sam had an itch to flex his demon blood powers since Ruby first suggested that Sam could use them to save Dean from Lilith in season 3. He held back in season 3 because Dean was dead set against it, but after watching Dean get dragged off to Hell while he stood hopelessly by and watched, Sam lost the will to keep fighting it. This wasn't about who Sam loved more - Ruby or Dean. In fact, I don't think Sam ever loved Ruby. He was using her as a means to learn more about how wield that power.

And by saying that Sam's only two choices were "follow Ruby or follow Dean," you're reducing him to a mindless drone who can only follow the plans of others, has no ability to think for himself, and whose decisions on who to follow are based on something as shallow as who he likes better.

As for the comment that Sam never seems to rise above his mistakes, I'm not going to touch that. If you really see the character in such a negative light, then we're not going to reach any common ground.

Quote:

Sam’s betrayal is not easily forgotten especially for Dean. He gives 100% to his friends and family and all he asks for in return is to be accepted. That's why he feels such guilt whenever someone dies under his charge and so hurt when he is rejected and why it takes him so long to accept it when either of those happens. I think some would call that being a hopeless romantic. LOL
I don't question that Dean's giving nature and sense of responsibility are great qualities. What I question is the implication that Sam doesn't accept Dean, just because he at times needs to make his own decisions. As a comparison, you could use a child whose mother wants him a doctor. The child may choose a different career path, but that's not a reflection on the child's love for his mother. That Dean continually interprets Sam's independence as a rejection says more about Dean's low self-esteem than anything else. I also question the implication that Sam doesn't share an equally giving nature and strong sense of responsibility.


Quote:

The series has written Sam in a negative fashion for a long time. I have never understood why the series did that, nor why anyone was happy with them doing it. They have long portrayed Sam as being angry with Dean for his life. That is unfair to both boys. Neither had a choice in the hand they were dealt. All they could do was work with what they had.
I don't know where you're getting the impression that Sam blamed Dean for his life. Sam maybe blamed John in season 1, but Sam forgave even John long ago. I also think that the show has written a lot of great, positive traits for Sam - including a strong capacity for empathy and forgiveness.



Quote:

Dean has always been portrayed as being there for Sam. Sam has not been portrayed the same.
Seriously? Let's look at that:


Season 1 (Scarecrow) -

MEG: But I don’t understand. You’re running back to your brother? The guy you ran away from? Why, because he won’t pick up his phone? Sam—come with me to California.
SAM: I can’t. I’m sorry.
MEG: Why not?
SAM: He’s my family.


Season 2 (Hunted) -

AVA: ... you are walking right into my vision. I mean, this is how you die.
SAM: Doesn't matter. It's my brother.


Season 3 (Very Supernatural Christmas) -

In the past, Sam gives Dean the amulet. In the present, even though Sam finds it too painful to celebrate Christmas because Dean's going to die, he does it anyway, putting up a tree and making eggnog because it's important to Dean.


Season 4 (I Know What You Did Last Summer) -

SAM: (speaking to crossroads demon) - I don't want ten years. I don't want one year. I don't want candy! I want to trade places with Dean.


Season 5 (Swan Song) -

SAM (to Dean): You got to promise not to try to bring me back. ... You go find Lisa. You pray to god she's dumb enough to take you in, and you -- you have barbecues and go to football games. You go live some normal, apple-pie life, Dean. Promise me.


Season 6 (The Man Who Knew Too Much) -

SAM: You know me. You know why. I'm not leaving my brother alone out there.
Amy
# Amy 2012-04-19 13:52
All i want for Season 8 Is Sam to have a profond bond with someone Good. Someone who will see Sam as a person in his own right and see behind Sam's interaalizing and see the good person he is.

I think Sam keeps so much to himself because he doesn' trust those that call themselves family/friends. Castiel was supposed to be a friend and look what he did to Sam for the sole purpose to create a distraction for Dean.
Bobby...psudo father emotionally and physically cut him out time after time, most horribly when sam returned from Hell. KNOWING Sam had bene in hell adn SUFFERED for a century, he literally turned his back on Sam in dozens of ways. He cared far more about Dean loosing his best friend who destroyed Sam's sanity then being concerned about Sam. Hell, Bobby was NEVER even angry at what castiel did to Sam. wasn't even angry for Sam on his behalf.

And Dean...threw away the amulet; yet saved a moldering trenchcoat transferring it from stolen car to stolen car.

Sam deserves better in Season 8 and I hope Carver gives it to him.
Sablegreen
# Sablegreen 2012-04-19 16:21
I've always thought the boys should have families to come home to as well. But history shows that families do not end will in the series. Look at the Campbells. So I don't think that is in the cards for either brother.

Carver will give all characters in the series a good season 8, but don't know if one season will be enough to fix all the problems. Here's hoping we get at least one.
EireneS
# EireneS 2012-04-19 15:17
Lots of comments, interesting ideas. I was thinking that in Season 8, if the Leviathans are taken care of by then, perhaps the writers will decide to see what can be done about Adam/Michael. It might be good timing for that.
Also, this is an old topic but I want to say again that I do not want Sam and Dean to die like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. That was that movie and that movie's ending was tuned to those characters. Sam and Dean on Supernatural are heroes fighting along with others, to help/save people who are being threatened/kill ed by monsters. The guys have been able to change and become more experienced in being more humane to monsters-like Madison in Heart and the ghost lady in Road Kill and the lead vampire lady in Blood Lust. The are working, evolving, changing heroes that stick together because of their love for each other. Why do heroes who are fighting monsters have to die? It would leave me with a hopeless feeling if they go out like Butch and Sundance. Who will be the heroes then to protect people who need them. It is an endless battle and their time might come, but I don't want it to be because "it would be cool" to go out like Butch and Sundance. I know this is TV, but the story is one that is humane and considered. If they die in the end of the series, it had better be for something worthwhile and not just a copy of a great movie ending.
Supernatural is a great story. The actors-all of them- are phenomenal. The writers continue to do a very good job-they are the creators and we are the audience-we don't have to like their art but I, for one, respect their talent. The crew and producers and anyone else connected to the program do great jobs. Jensen Ackles and Jared Padalecki (or Jared Padalecki and Jensen Ackles) are superb in these roles and they are what makes the series so great to watch.
That is my emotional rant.
Sablegreen
# Sablegreen 2012-04-19 16:16
I have been under the impression that a lot of fan requests will be answered in season 8. So maybe Adam will show up then as having been freed from the cage by Michael. I know a lot of fans would like to see that.

I don't think the series will kill off the boys...again. Been done to many times. I think the ending will be about either Cass or Bobby or both. I just hope we get a season 8 to find out what happens after the cliff hanger.
vivian
# vivian 2012-04-20 12:09
EireneS, completely agree with you. I don't want them to die at the end. It would be extremely cruel, not cool at all, highly unfair and not the message I get from the show.
Bevie
# Bevie 2012-04-20 13:28
Neither do I consider going out like Butch and Sundance to be cool in the least! I would absolutely hate that ending and would think all the previous years had been terribly wasted. These two heroes should get some kind of reward for all their pain and losses and leave us feeling that that kind of selflessness is worth it in the end.

It should end with family love and hope, not despair for the future. IMO of course.

Thanks EirenesS! :-)
Blue Steel
# Blue Steel 2012-04-19 15:41
I view that trench coat as a rape coat, the coat he raped Sam's mind with. It is gross to me that Dean kept it and moved it from car trunk to car trunk. If your best friend attacked and nearly killed your brother or sister, and certainly caused a trauma that would have destroyed someone weaker than Sam over time, I would hope you wouldn't be mooning over them being missing presumed dead when it's your job to take down evil monsters who do evil, which is exactly what Castiel had turned into, of his own free will.

I have no desire to see Castiel trying to earn Dean's trust back, seeing Castiel suffer in any way, seeing Castiel as a "human." I want no scenes implying he is a child in any way, which is an insult to actual real innocent children. Castiel was alive for 2000 years as a soldier. All angels make free will and emotional decisions in every single episode they've been in. Every word that comes out of an angels mouth belies the idea that they have no free will. Yes, they do. They were living in a Totalitarian Society which suppressed free expression, but that was set up and run by Michael. I see little good in the angels or in Castiel, who was indeed Dean's Ruby, only Dean gets to keep his monster while killing Sam's. That's the beauty of self-righteousn ess and wielding anger as a weapon against those closest to you.


I really really wanted Castiel dead and gone by now. Just knowing he'll probably be in season 8 in some ways makes me depressed. And this season barely exists for me after episode 2.


I don't want a shred of sympathy spent on Castiel when Sam hasn't gotten any for the past 4 seasons. Is Castiel better than humans now? Because it seems like the writers and fans take him that way, being an angel. This attitude is why SPN has no real sense of love or family or humanity anymore.


I object to the idea that Dean has worried about Sam all season long. He clearly hasn't. While Sam has clearly worried about Dean when he was totally insane himself. If I don't see it in an episode, it didn't happen, for all intents and purposes. I did not see Dean worry about Sam very much at all, not even in the intense first 2 episodes. Dean's drinking was more of a liability to safety on a hunt than Sam's hallucinations. I say this because we were never shown Sam being anything other than perfectly fine and okay all season long. Even when he was dying in 7.17, he kept his head and saved a fellow patient. Even when Sam should have a free pass to just freaking lose it, he didn't lose it! No, he fretted about how Dean was doing, instead. To me, that was just wrong and emotionally inappropriate story telling. I am not sure I'll ever take Dean seriously as any kind of "care taker" ever again after this ball up.


Sam's been presented as fine and okay all season long. He had the best, the biggest, the most personal story of any of them. And all WE saw was a damn hand rub in about 4 episodes. It's an offense to even call this season a season, the writing for Sam was so lacking in personal insight. I'm sick of watching a show where Sam is not treated like he's a human being that has wants and needs like everyone else on the planet.


And no, that doesn't mean I want to stop watching SPN. What I want is for the show I watch to stop being lazy and pay attention to itself for once.
Sablegreen
# Sablegreen 2012-04-19 16:32
cd28 and Blue Steel

Thanks for you opinions. I think it's best that we agree to disagree at this point and that's fine with me.

If you would like to post any speculation, I'd be interested in reading it.
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2012-04-19 17:20
Well this seasons finale will maybe show what will come if SPN gets renewed.
Dean decided to hang on to a flask as reminder for Bobby and Dean decided to hang onto a dirty filthy bloody trench coat which belongs to a supernatural creature who murdered (several) people and angels and hurt Dean's brother without a second thought says to me that this beings ghost and angel will play a role in clearing the earth from Levi's! Because Dean holds onto them!

And I am still not over the fact that Dean threw the amulet in the trash!

The show is laying all the emotional, bonding scenes to Dean and nonetheless Dean is pitying himself! The show is making Dean the solely character who deserves focus, who is suffering over the whole season and is allowed to wallow in emotional focus and relationships to others who in the end will reward him no matter what they do in the meantime.

While Sam is cursed no matter what he does, people who connecting to him, die or end up on the bad side! This storytelling is maybe simple and shallow and you have to look under the surface, , but there are lots of viewers who are seeing only the obvious and with the subtle storytelling that gives one character the emotional connections and cuts Sam off in the same time the focus shifted to Dean (maybe no wonder why on this side are now only Dean writers).

I think Dean will be the important pitoval center in the finale and not the brothers (like in Swan Song). Dean -with his brothers and fathers!
Sam will -of course- support his brother and standing there and silently listening when the others talk!

The relationship I always saw as the heart of this show is not there anymore, its now buried deeply! They already shifted the focus away from the brothers as the powerful unit!

Maybe Jared wants more time off for a season 8 and so they decided to drive only with Dean's character! Well I hope I am wrong with my view, because without Sam right in the center with Dean (and not just standing there) this is not SPN anymore.

And in the meantime I only want for Sam a character, a person who cares for him, and sees the good in Sam, someone who Sam is important to as a person, a human being!

The levis are not intriguing for me and I don't like the prospect of any angels in SPN, not Michael, not Lucifer and mostly not Castiel anymore!

The only thing is the brothers relationship being there onscreen again, that's all what I look forward to and when this is not happening (and I clinch to Sam's character) I need someone for Sam, who values Sam as a person and is also liked by fandom!
Sablegreen
# Sablegreen 2012-04-19 18:26
Oh don’t even get me started on the amulet! It was so wrong of Kripke to get rid of it, especially the way he did. That was such a symbol of the boy’s relationship. I can see if they just didn’t want to wear jewelry anymore, but he didn’t have to have it so nastily dealt with. I really hope that Carver’s brings it back. It would go a long way to restoring the shows core.

As for Dean’s arc, the producers said from the beginning that Dean would have a 13 episode arc and that he had some kind of a secret. It’s in the show synopsis on the CW site. That would leave 10 episodes for all the other characters, Sam, Bobby, and Cass. So the season was set up to be predominately Dean by TPTB. Those were supposed to be over by now, but it’s possible they changed format because of Jared’s baby. They didn’t know how much time he’d need off or when so they adjusted the season to provide it if needed. That might be why they had Sam’s arc end in 7.17. But that is just a guess.

Dean’s arc was his revenge on the levies because of Cass and Bobby, and all the other deaths the levies caused. Well Cass and Bobby are back, so that really ends Dean’s arc as well. So while both Dean and Sam are still in the episodes, it is shaping up to look like they are not going to be central to the cliffhanger. That’s why many feel this season will hang on Bobby and Cass’s situation. That may or may not be true. TPTB can always pull a rabbit out of their hat, I just hope that if they do, it involves the boys ending the levies threat and not them just standing on the side lines. But it is still too early to tell.

And yes, I’ve hear many say the whole levies arc has been very disappointing. I liked the mouth with teeth and them ‘bibbing’ themselves, but I haven’t found them particularly scary at all.
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-04-19 18:22
@ Sablegreen: You asked for speculations. My speculations, based on Jim Beaver's tweet that he finished filming S7 and doesn't know whether he will be in S8 or not is that:

(1) The cliffhanger will be about Bobby and Cas. I don't believe for a minute that they will leave Bobby's story incomplete (and Bobby is still a ghost in 7.23) and as a cliffhanger if they weren't sure the actor would be available for S8 or if S8 wasn't pretty assured. I think Jim Beaver is lying again.

(2) Sam's story is now over and Dean's depression over Bobby and lack of trust over Cas will be dropped. They will continue the revenge against Dick Roman angle, and the two brothers will be nothing more than part of a team that take the Levi down in some manner (a team that includes a ghost, an angel, and the King of Hell from what we are told).

A lot can happen in 5 episodes, so my guess is that the Levi thing will be wrapped up, so

(3) As far as I am concerned, Sam and Dean will end up once again playing a support role while the finale's story and the cliffhanger are focused on support characters.

Lastly: (4) If this goes as my worst nightmares were afraid that it would, then SG and the writers are the biggest evil that the Winchesters have encountered in two years. It's really scary how much damage they have done to the series.

I hope I am proven so very wrong. If I am, I will clap and dance. If not, I'll be hitting the hunter's helper and bemoan the fact that I was tricked again into thinking this season would be better than last season.
Sablegreen
# Sablegreen 2012-04-19 21:34
The tweet from Jim Beaver was “That’s it. I’ve just wrapped Season 7. Very weird saying goodbye, not knowing if this is hiatus or forever”

What I took this to mean is that, as with every season they finish without an early confirmation that they are renewed, they don’t know if when the cast and crew break up, if summer will be a hiatus (if they get renewed) of if the goodbye will be forever if they are not renewed. I think that is all he meant.

1. And I agree that they would not have a cliffhanger on two supporting characters if they didn’t make sure they would be available for the next season. For a while now, I have felt that TPTB already know they are renewed and were told that so they could plan the season finale and set up for s8, mainly because they hired Carver. I can’t see them doing that if they were not renewed or if they were not sure they would be renewed. They would have had to agree on a salary and sign a contract before they could announce anything. That’s a lot of work and money to invest if you weren’t sure it would pay off.

2. I think Sam’s arc is over too and I think they ended it early in case Jared needed time of for his baby. No question that Dean’s arc is decreased for sure. Bobby is not dead though he’s a ghost. Dean knows he’s around, and he can talk to him if he wants. Not as bad as having no Bobby at all. Ditto for Cass. He may or may not forgive Cass for the betrayal, but with Cass alive at least he now has the option for closure. If Cass is dead, it could never be resolved. So, while I don’t think the issues will be dropped, I don’t think they will be the driving force for the character that they once were.

I think the boys will be a part of a team that gets Roman, but I don’t think their motives anymore are as strong as those of Ghost!Bobby and Cass. I don’t know how much of a part Crowley will play. He seems right now to be only a source for a substance the boys need, like the alpha vamp. Maybe that’s all he does. Then he hides till the boys get rid of the levies for him. And there is no indication so far that he’s in the finale…unlike Meg. She is definitely in 7.23 and I really can’t see what her role would be.

3. I don’t know if the boys will be sidelined or not. It could be that they call the shots or maybe actually have to use the 3 items they collect.

4. I hope the series ends more with the Winchesters front and center. If not, Carver will be in charge next year, so we can hope things will improve then.
Sablegreen
# Sablegreen 2012-04-19 22:13
FYI Jim Beaver recently did and interview talking about Ghost!Bobby, how he was notified about Bobby's impending death, and more information on what it takes to learn how ghost do what they do. Also about the reality that eventually ghosts turn angry and vengeful and how Bobby views that.

To read the interview click the link below.

http://www.examiner.com/article/supernatural-s-jim-beaver-teases-of-grave-importance-bobby-s-biggest-focus
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-04-19 23:06
I just read the interview and, quite frankly, I'm angry. Further, I don't understand why more fans aren't. They are spending one of the last episodes of the season on a Bobby episode, following two mini-breaks where there was nothing to talk about in Sam's story or Dean's story. (And maybe even the long winter break; I can't remember now what we were talking about then? Wasn't it 'Is Bobby Dead?'

From all implications in the interview, they are spending one of the last episodes of the seasons doing a Bobby remake into a super special GhostBobby who is able to overcome seven years of ghost canon to not turn vengeful. That totally wrecks one of the good, solid MotW's the show has had. (I like ghost stories and haunted house stories.) If Bobby is able to overcome this canon, then every other ghost will look pathetically small fry. Who would want to see Sam and Dean take on another ghost when we know that Bobby was able to overcome all the lore and canon associated with them?

If Bobby is able to overcome this canon, that makes him so special that he overcame a bad childhood, survived committing patricide at a young age, overcame losing his wife and hunter friends, overcame being paralyzed, grew from being a simple human with all the skill and knowledge to kill the supernatural into being a supernatural himself, adopted the boys and was still training them in how to be JediHunters, hitting the mark with their eyes closed. Wow! Sam and Dean won't look like much compared to that, now would they?

Of course there is a S8; therefore, Jim is lying. If Bobby hasn't moved on or been resurrected at the end of the finale, then he will be back. He's either gone or not gone, because he IS a ghost in the finale. Jim knows which it is.

It means nothing to me if the boys are a part of a team effort, or lead the team effort in killing the Levi; not when Sam's story was touched on in two beginning episodes and was concluded in one late one and Dean's story is once totally without purpose (whether that be because Jared didn't need as much time off as he thought...which I don't for one second believe...or because it is a pattern the show has established and is still going with. After seven years, Dean should have one resolution to at least one sub-plot that has been introduced over the years. He is one of two leads, after all. Or is that Bobby now, or Cas now, or Meg now, or the teenage Asian prophet now, or Garth now? I mean, we did get a Sam conclusion to a five year story, and we got a season devoted to Cas' story, and now a season looking like it is devoted to Bobby's story.

Of course, I don't know how they are going to end this season, but all implications are there in the synopses and these interviews, and those implications are that the season is ending just as screwed up as last season and that Sam and Dean are nothing more than the pretty faces that keep the fans viewing and the fans are being screwed out of stories about the leads.

And isn't it about time there was some build-up to the mytharc...you know, those Levi we keep hearing about?

So, no, I am not happy with the spoilers that have been released. Like Bobby or don't like Bobby doesn't matter. If these implications are realized, the outcome is the same.

The one positive thing I have heard is that we'll see Rick Worthy again. Meg's character is stale and she's outlived her shelf life in the story, IMO. She needs to be ganked.
Sablegreen
# Sablegreen 2012-04-20 11:33
First, the series really has never gotten around to the main arc for the season much before the last 2 or 3 episodes. Last year it was the last two. So not surprising that 5 episodes out we are still getting more light episodes than heavy ones.

Second, as for more people not being angry at a Bobby episode, Jim Beaver has a lot of fans in the SPN fandom. More like him that not, so yeah, they are very interested in what happened, what he’s seeing, how ghostdom works. The show has never ‘track’ a ghost from death through the progression to anger and vengefulness. I think it is an interesting concept; I’m just not sure the writing team is up to the challenge. Now Carver in BH has done just that with one of his characters and it is fascinating to watch. If Bobby is carried over to a ghost in s8, I think Carver’s portrayal of Bobby going dark will be interesting.

As for Bobby overcoming the canon, no one said he would. Beaver said Bobby thinks he has a way around it, doesn’t mean that will work. And even if he does manage to find a way, it doesn’t mean all ghosts will be less liked because they didn’t. I don’t think all vampires are less scary now because we know there is a cure for the disease. Some are lucky and some aren’t. That’s true of everything.

And if Beaver and /or Collins knows there is going to be a season 8, they can’t say anything anymore than TPTB can. That would be very unprofessional to do that. The network has to make that announcement and I don’t know why they don’t already.

Like you I suspect the series will end up with the boys being cheerleaders again but I’m not going to give up hope yet. I’ll wait and see what happens.
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-04-20 15:42
Quote:
First, the series really has never gotten around to the main arc for the season much before the last 2 or 3 episodes. Last year it was the last two. So not surprising that 5 episodes out we are still getting more light episodes than heavy ones.
Yes, that is the pattern, but at this point they should be setting up the mytharc story, especially since the Levi have been nothing but a phone call each episode. The Levi story started strong (with Edgar) and after the first two episodes, turned into political horror in an election year. That's why they aren't scary.

Since it's time to start getting to the point, I fear that with this episode coming off a hiatus means that Dean's drinking and depression was nothing more than background noise for Bobby's story going. That is disappointing.

I want to believe that somehow they will pull this season together and something good will come from it. But I have to admit that with the reveal of GhostBobby last episode, it felt like all the air was sucked out of the brothers' stories. As I said, Sam's is wrapped up and I fear that Dean's drinking/depres sion over Bobby's death has just been dropped in favor of picking up the GhostBobby story.

What I mentioned in my post has nothing to do with whether fans like Bobby or not. I like Bobby. It has more to do with the brothers were supposed to have lost all their friends and resources, being thrown into full adulthood, and we were pounded over the head that Dean would be pushed into some sort of resolution -- if nothing else, than why he hunts.

Now, all indications are, from the last episode and all the spoilers we are getting, that the focus of everything connected to Dean's story has shifted to GhostBobby's.

IF the show is now switching over to GhostBobby's story, whether it will be intriguing or not, means that the fans have been lied to AGAIN: the drinking, the depression, the 'can't stand all the losses, why am I a hunter' was for nothing. I do not like being lied to in lieu of good storytelling. And, I did not sign up seven years ago to Cas or Bobby to push the brothers into the background. Helpers? OK. Friends? OK. Support characters? OK. Swan Song Sequel? Not OK. The Man Who Knew Too Much? Not OK.

Like you, I think the brothers are cheerleaders again, learning nothing, resolving nothing, not growing as characters, while the show obviously shifted to Cas last year and (possibly) GhostBobby this year.

We'll find out more of the direction they are taking with tonight's episode. I'm actually just going to watch to finish up the season and am putting all my faith into the hope that Carver will do better by the show and by the fans.
cd28
# cd28 2012-04-20 16:26
Ginger, you're not the only one with those thoughts about the Bobby storyline. Bobby was a great character, but I can't help feeling really disappointed to learn that when Sera talked about this being a year for character development, she wasn't talking about Sam and Dean. Bobby, on the other hand, has had a great year for character development, and it sounds like there's a lot more to come.

But getting back to the topic of this post, I haven't posted any speculation about the Leviathans because I haven't found myself caring about that storyline yet, but I'll share this thought. I think it would be a great resolution if Cas got rid of Sam's Lucifer crazy for good by shifting it off to Dick. Let Dick fight with Lucifer in his head for a while. The two deserve each other. It probably wouldn't kill Dick, but it might throw him off his game for a bit.
Sablegreen
# Sablegreen 2012-04-20 17:40
Lots of people are losing interest in the levies storyline. It just sort of died since winter hiatus.

As for Cass giving Sam's hallucinations to Dick, I doubt Dick would ever left Cass get close enough. And the levies are supposedly older than Luci so I don't know how much it would bother Dick anyway.

And Cass wakes up in 7.21 and it seems it was just spontaneous. He must have dissipated the injury, heal from it, or compartmentaliz ed it. From the synopsis of 7.21 and 7.22, it doesn’t seem to have had any lasting affects either. But he’s an angel so I guess that’s believable.

As for Gamble, one thing about her is she hates giving out spoilers. She will twist and turn them and even lie if she feels viewers are getting to close to what they are doing.
She just doesn't like spilling anything.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2012-04-20 08:59
Jo1027 –The "no chick flick moments" was not a slam on Sam if that’s what you mean. It’s men being silly about emotion between men..like when Bobby said he wanted to stop the serious talk Dean and Sam were having with him in TCCODW by saying he wanted to leave’ before we grow girly parts.’

No, that is not what I meant. I was pointing out that as far back as the pilot Dean was telling Sam that he didn't want to hear what Sam had to say. After John died, he wouldn't talk about that with Sam either, but did with Gordon Walker.
What I'm saying is that it's no wonder that Sam doesn't tell Dean things. It seems to me that Dean doesn't really want to hear how Sam feels and certainly won't tell Sam how he feels. That makes their relationship very one-dimensional and I think that is why we are seeing the boys not seeming to like each other right now. They don't know each other because they don't talk to each other. How can you like someone you hardly know? All they talk about is the job.
Sablegreen
# Sablegreen 2012-04-20 10:22
Thanks you for clearing that up. But the discussion of the brothers is not a topic here. It's an issue that only the writers can fix, so we will have to wait and see what Carver does.

If you have any speculation you would like to contribute I'd love to hear that! And thatks for reading the article.
Karen
# Karen 2012-04-20 11:18
Hi Sablegreen

I am curious on how this season will end and I’m totally clueless on what they have in store for us next season.
Providing there is a Season 8.
Come On CW! Announce it already! You’re Killing Us!

The Levi’s – If they do plan to end the Levi story this year I am very curious on how this will be done. It’s one thing to kill them one on one. But how do they plan to destroy them all at one time.
If they were all just in one Town or State then sure, but they have implied that they are scattered all over the Country and possibly in other parts of the world. It would have to be some very strong Mojo or Hocus Pocus or by the hand God to bring them all down at once.
I guess this is why they are bringing back Archangels and Demons.
I do hope Sam and Dean are the ones to bring down Roman. Let them kill him first before unleashing their death plan. I think it’s only fair and hell the show is supposed to be about the Brothers right?

Bobby – I am hoping they either resurrect him or let him pass over once Roman and his cronies are put to an end. I wouldn’t want Bobby to remain as a Ghost. Not because canon has always had spirits turning vengeful over time and that Bobby would go that way. I believe he could turn vengeful if he was never able to make contact with the boys or after the boys passed on themselves and he was not able to pass over. But this show has shown us other version. In Road Kill, Molly never went evil and she did have the opportunity to cross over when she was ready. In Asylum the only vengeful spirit was the Doctor all the other spirits were trying to warn people as well as the spirit in All the Usual Suspects. So I’m not so worried about Bobby turning evil it just comes across too cheesy for me.

Castiel – Not sure how I feel about him yet. I feel he definitely needs to redeem himself further. What he did to Sam is still a sore spot for me.
I always liked his character and understood his motives.
During season 4 he was a soldier and he had to obey the rules plain and simple. When he did start to rebel he was tortured into submission, at least that was the impression I got from Anna.
Season 5 he was struggling with loosing his home and his powers and although at time I wanted to slap him I also felt sorry for him.
Season 6 however never really gave us his story until the end. I know throughout the year he always stated that the war in heaven was going poorly, that he was loosing. It was being implied that he was getting pretty desperate. So I did feel for him until he took Sam’s wall down. Now he did say he would fix Sam after he succeeded in opening the door to purgatory and I do believe he meant what he said. And I think he fully believed he could handle taking in all those souls. However that ended up being his major downfall and Sam ended up paying the price for it.
I guess I need to see how and what they do with his story, so for now if he were to come back I would only want him in the odd episode.
hedi
# hedi 2012-04-20 11:40
first of all i have to say : great, great article! really surprised by your theories , I've read some of the comments and i noticed some points , which i wanted to talk about!(if u don fall asleep!)

1) i have to say, i have this strange and bad feeling that Cas is going to be killed off again , and due to 7.22 synopsis : i would say he is one of the "keys" that they need for beating off the leviathans. i so hope not that to happen, because if they do and they bring him back again in S8 , its just LAME! even tough i love Castiel , but if they are planning to do sth like this , its going to be so overrated.
and one other thing is the whole Daphne thing! i guess it was just for filling some holes in Cas' return's storyline . so i don't think we're going to see any daphne/cas moments! that won't happen!

2) i loved your theory about angels and most likely Micheal , which we cannot be so sure not to happen , because of some hints we have from episodes ahead, like Asian *prophet* or the* archangels* and all that , but unlike so,e of you guys m i don't have a problem with help from supernatural beings. sam and dean , at the end of the day are humans , so they cannot defeat every force out there , but i don't think it willl end with supernatural beings take over sam and dean winchester and as you say it is human's planet and world so they should run the show , right? so , i don't think they going to give up on the main idea of the show which was to defeat the unknown forces by two young brothers. but its not bad for them to have some help from powerful beings.

3) i like brotherly moments too. i miss 'em alot and like most of you i've noticed dean's reaction these last few episodes toward sam. i dont wanna talk about who is more wrong or who is right , but i think the most reason is that dean is too tired of the situation he caught up in , Sam , Cas, loss of bobby , that thing in 7.13 and everything made him more and more upset and more under pressure than before, so to me , he is kinda numb. he just want to get the job done. but i hope that we will get some sense from dean finally and some brother good moments! and i have a good feeling for that , because thats who they are and world is still in one piece because of Sam and Dean Winchester 's love and protection towards each other.

4) and there is ONE thing that i might disagree with a lot of fans lately and it is that they want the boys to be some haunters , road tripping all around the country and all that. but i've got to say , things get bigger , sam and dean are not kids anymore , you cannot except a show to stuck with the same story line over and over for 7 years, there must be a bigger picture to go after , to haunt down , and bigger picture needs powerful forces to be envolved. if things didnt get bigger (like Micheal and Lucifer big) then the show must have been done in season 3 . although the season 3 finale is hard and sad , but considering no season coming after , the fans would accept that fact. maybe takes time , but they would! but right now we're closer to possible season 8 because of getting involved in big things , and this doesn't mean that season 5 or 6 are good , but what i'm trying to say is that a show cannot go on without reveling new things along the way.
but i cross my fingers to have season full of brotherly moments!

(im sorry for talking so long! ;) )
EireneS
# EireneS 2012-04-20 12:28
Hedi-I agree with your opinions, except for Cas, #1. Very well done. Thank you.
Bevie
# Bevie 2012-04-20 13:45
Reading all the posts here that are full of anger and Sam hate, Dean hate, Cas hate and even Bobby hate, is so very depressing.

i'm with Gabriel "Can't we all just get along?"

By the way, I HATE that they killed off Gabe! :P :cry:
Sablegreen
# Sablegreen 2012-04-20 13:57
Well who knows they might bring Gabe back! After all he is an archangel and if Cass can be restored iI should thing and archangel can too. I, for one,would like to see a lot of favorites return if only just for one episode.
Sablegreen
# Sablegreen 2012-04-20 13:47
Karen -
The leviathans in all the religions that mention them are just one monster, a serpent-like thing that lives in water. The series expanded them to be a species and yes that means any solution to them has to be a supernatural one, some biblical or black magic. I’m guessing that is what the 3 items are that the boys need to find in 7.22. Castiel agrees to help them get one (Heaven), but they need to get the other 2, one from Crowley (Hell) and one from the Alpha Vamp (Purgatory). In a lot of biblical texts, the symbols for the universe are earth, wind, fire, and water. So if we say wind signifies heaven, fire signify hell, can water signify the levies (Purgatory)? And that would make earth, us or more to the point, humans. Which means they need to acquire 3 items but actually need 4 for the spell? If that’s the case maybe the boys are going to be part of the solution.

I think Bobby will be in the cliffhanger and end up in season8. I think they are going to toy with the idea of him going dark before the restore him to a human. I agree not all ghost go dark and you have given good examples the series has used. But I agree, he shouldn’t say a ghost. A friendly ghost in a horror series just doesn’t work.

Cass was a bad boy. The world is filled with radical people who do the wrong thing thinking it’s for the betterment of their world. Most of them never realize their error, but Cass does. I think he fully intended to restore Sam in a very short time. His pride got the better of him and it became his downfall. He did save Sam at his own expense and I don’t really see what else he can do for that. How he plans on atoning for the levies is still a mystery.

I have to say, I expect Cass to be back in s8 but how much I guess depends on this transformation he is supposed to go through at the end of the season.

Hedi –
First thanks for reading the article and so glad you liked it! And nope, I don’t think Cass will die, BUT he might not be the Cass we know right now. Collins said in interviews that Cass would undergo another transformation at the end of the season, so he must be at least part of the cliffhanger. Some think he will be made human, but that was what everyone thought at the end of last season too. I’m thinking that he changes somehow to reabsorb the levies to try again to put them back in purgatory. But who knows.

No I don’t mind them having help from Cass and other supernaturals, it’s just that lately the boys just stand by and watch the problem be solved by supernaturals. I want them to PERFORM the solution not just watch it happen.

And yes…that is the top topic everywhere now…people want the boys back as they were in earlier seasons. And yes, any show has to progress or it becomes stale, but how many times can the boys save the world? First it was Lucifer, then it was Gostiel , now it’s the levies. Why can we have something just about the boys, like the end of season one, or two or three, or maybe just a happy ending for a change? I don’t think that will detract from the series that much. Things don’t have to always be on a global scale. That gets old too. Road tripping and MOTW won’t necessarily result in less fun with the boys. Just different fun and I really miss all those cool hotel rooms they had. And there are other directions the show can go in too. It depends on the creativity of the writers.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-04-20 17:20
Speculating on how the season will end. I think the Leviathans like Lucifer can't be killed but need to be reimprisoned. After all God didn't destroy them, so they may enjoy the same protected status that Lucifer did. Plus, killing the Leviathan is genocide, not simply killing individuals in a species. Sadly this may lead to a replay of Swan Song, with Castiel playing the part of Sam, although I hope this can be avoided by coming up with an alternative.

I don't know what I think will happen with the Bobby situation. I love Bobby, but he had become a bit like "Magic Bobby" even before he died. I'm not sure Bobby the friendly ghost works in the confines of the show. OTOH, how many times can people be resurrected? I can't help but notice we have a species that can create genetically identical bodies and we have a spirit in need of a body. I think we may end up with the Leviathan consciousness being driven back to Purgatory and having one empty Bobby shell left here on earth. Then ghost Bobby could possess himself.

I have no idea what Sam and Dean's roles will be in the finale. On another board I suggested they bring in Sheriff Jodie so she can teach them to knit. That way Sam and Dean can be making warm gloves and scarves for the winter while Bobby, Castiel, Crowley and

SPOILER

Kevin the Prophet

save the world. I'm joking, I think.
Sablegreen
# Sablegreen 2012-04-20 18:18
I hope you are joking, ....but it is funny. You think Jody knows how to knit? And killing Leviathans is justification, not genocide. They killed too many people and no one should feel in the least bit sorry for them. Feel sorry for the folks they killed. Besides, if they want to live, all they have to do is go back to purgatory. No one will stop them!

Yes, I thought about Cass re-ingesting the levies too and as they wouldn’t leave willing to go to purgatory, Cass would have to take them back. If that happened I can see Dean going with him…maybe Sam too. And that I don’t want to see. Besides that really isn’t a transformation, and Collins said Cass would transform again.

As for Bobby, he must be a ghost for a reason. According to his interview, it was always planned that he was coming back. But why make him a ghost? Why not make him comatose and then just wake up like Cass. Must be some reason they needed one. Maybe it’s just to have another plot carried over to s8 besides the cliffhanger.

The levies do take the likeness of the person they eat, but those bodies are then levies. I kind of look at them as a kind of shape shifter. Don’t think anyone can inhabit one of those. But I hope Bobby does get a body soon. I like him and really want him back!!