Let’s Discuss: The Supernatural “I’m Not Happy” Thread
I’ve got this little rescue kitty. She’s petite, loaded with so much fur she looks like a tiny squirrel when wet, and rather mischievious in her adorable ways. She also tells you when she’s not happy. When she doesn’t want to be held, she throws out her little paw and touches you on the chin. We call it her “I’m not happy” paw.
When “Supernatural” fans aren’t happy, well, they’re not that adorable and subtle (okay, most of you aren’t). They seep into happy and civil threads with their bitterness and rant about stuff, then start calling each other names. They start throwing insults around like “You, you Sam fan!” or, “You, you Dean fan!” I know, it’s brutal.
Unhappy fans especially love coming out when polarizing episodes air. Like when a writer has some “brotherly chat” dialogue at the end that’s acrimonious (thanks Adam Glass), and the powderkeg known as the “Supernatural” fandom lights up like the 4th of July. Suddenly every transgression that Sam and Dean have done to each other is on the table, and other characters are just thrown in for fun.
But hey, no season is perfect. I still have a few issues with season nine (heck, I’m still bitter about season seven), so if anything about “Supernatural” is really bothering you, this is a great place to get it out as well.
Unless you’re touching people on the chin to let them know you’re not happy, consider this thread as your safe outlet. Vent, argue, breakdown how seasons worth of canon has done your character wrong, it’s all allowed in this spot. Only two major rules apply. One show respect to your fellow fans, no matter what their opinion is. Two, avoid character bashing. No Sam vs. Dean, Dean vs. Sam, Sam vs. Sam, Dean vs. Dean, etc. If you don’t, I’m sending my kitty over to touch you. You don’t want to mess with this!
Let’s discuss…
Chin touch! Meow … 🙂
Chin touch! Meow … 🙂
Well, I must admit that’s a more “positive” title than our previous “bitterness” threads.
Thanks alice.
Well, I must admit that’s a more “positive” title than our previous “bitterness” threads.
Thanks alice.
I have nothing to say on this subject, but had to tell you how adorable that cat looks! Thanks for sharing her picture.
I have nothing to say on this subject, but had to tell you how adorable that cat looks! Thanks for sharing her picture.
You know I am not overly nit picky but the end of this weeks episode, bugged the hell out of me.
But so far that’s been the only thing to really bug me, I guess I am easy going in that aspect.
*tosses kitty a treat*
*pets kitty*
You know I am not overly nit picky but the end of this weeks episode, bugged the hell out of me.
But so far that’s been the only thing to really bug me, I guess I am easy going in that aspect.
*tosses kitty a treat*
*pets kitty*
Well, I’m not happy, but I’m happy to see you back st50! I thought most of the Sam girls were gone!
Ok. I don’t have any problems with the guys being at odds. But I do have a problem when both sides aren’t represented equally.
Sam is so underwritten that it’s beyond frustrating: It’s disheartening. He’s completely in the right about what Dean did, but all we saw the last 2 eps is how screwed up Dean is, including the heart to heart with Garth, so of course the sympathy is going to go his way. He’s the only character the show focuses on!
Rant over.
Well, I’m not happy, but I’m happy to see you back st50! I thought most of the Sam girls were gone!
Ok. I don’t have any problems with the guys being at odds. But I do have a problem when both sides aren’t represented equally.
Sam is so underwritten that it’s beyond frustrating: It’s disheartening. He’s completely in the right about what Dean did, but all we saw the last 2 eps is how screwed up Dean is, including the heart to heart with Garth, so of course the sympathy is going to go his way. He’s the only character the show focuses on!
Rant over.
I thought SandraK’s interpretation of the guys conversation was perfect. Her post is on Gerry’s thread. I just wish there was a little less Monster monologue and more Sam and Dean. And please if we need to get Sam from point A to point B can we not knock him out. It is getting a little silly especially now that he doesn’t have an angel to heal him anymore.
OMG your kitty looks exactly like my Gwen who was with me for 22yrs. She was the best cat ever (covers Tucker’s ears). 🙂
I thought SandraK’s interpretation of the guys conversation was perfect. Her post is on Gerry’s thread. I just wish there was a little less Monster monologue and more Sam and Dean. And please if we need to get Sam from point A to point B can we not knock him out. It is getting a little silly especially now that he doesn’t have an angel to heal him anymore.
OMG your kitty looks exactly like my Gwen who was with me for 22yrs. She was the best cat ever (covers Tucker’s ears). 🙂
Thank you Alice. I love that you did this. I think the previous incarnations of this kind of thread served a really valuable purpose. People actually used them and seemed to appreciate having a place to vent. I am not usually a ranty poster but I used it a time or two and it felt good to be able to say my piece on an issue or two. The other posters are given fair warning of the content so they can avoid it if they want. It is impossible for everyone to be happy about everything and I for one, want to hear all views even if I don’t always agree.
Thank you Alice. I love that you did this. I think the previous incarnations of this kind of thread served a really valuable purpose. People actually used them and seemed to appreciate having a place to vent. I am not usually a ranty poster but I used it a time or two and it felt good to be able to say my piece on an issue or two. The other posters are given fair warning of the content so they can avoid it if they want. It is impossible for everyone to be happy about everything and I for one, want to hear all views even if I don’t always agree.
[quote name=”cheryl42″]I thought SandraK’s interpretation of the guys conversation was perfect. . :-)[/quote]
Thanks cheryl 42! I had fun doing it.
Looking at it again tonight, it was a harsh conversation, but I got to thinking about what Dean said to Sam/Gadreel the first time he confessed what he’d done and was trying to warn Sam to kick Gadreel out. Dean said “we can do this over this later, you can kick my ass all you want, right now we have bigger problems.”
Dean strikes me as the kind of guy that would rather have someone beat him up over his mistakes than to emotional shunned. Even though he left Sam behind because he thought it was best for Sam, it was almost as if he couldn’t handle the silence anymore and wanted to have it out in any way that he could. However, Sam is not the kind to throw down to solve an issue. Dean knows that.
So, when Dean got out of that Impala, he knew that Sam had a few choice things to say. But he stayed and took it because he knows that is the only way Sam will deal with his anger. Dean knew he had it coming. He wanted on the bridge in fact. “Ok let me hear it.” In other words, come on get it over with, don’t wait around in silence, don’t hold it in…punish me already.
But it didn’t get over with then.
This conversation Dean needed to hear as much as Sam needed to get off his chest. It hurt like hell but so does getting tooth pulled. Somethings have to be painful before they better. But we can be honest. At this point, Dean is on a shopping trip for punishment- Mark of Cain having been at the top of that list- not for saving Sam’s life or for tricking Sam, although we know he’s sorry for hurting Sam in the process saving his life, but for Kevin. Kevin is the thread that is driving Dean crazy with guilt. Anyone notice the pain that engulfed his face, his quivering chin and how quick he was to admit guilt when talking to Garth? The line ‘I’ll burn for that, I will” about Kevin actually horrified me – I mean, Dean is talking about burning in Hell, right? Considering that Dean hasn’t forgotten about hell, it gives us an indication about how horrible he views his mistake.
We know how much Sam has view himself over the years, as a freak, a monster, being part demon and all. I thought that we’d moved past that until last season, when it flared up like a match in a fuel tank when he gave the talk to Dean about the how the trials were purifying him of the evil in him. I was shocked to realize that even to this day he is still keenly affected by it all. He saw the trials maybe more as redemption and that was why even though he didn’t finish them, he was ready to die. In that church when Dean told him that there “wasn’t anything past or present that I would put in front of you” he was speaking to that fear that Sam has. Sam failures, all the time he has let Dean down has been the result of the “monster/demon” part of him. Telling Sam that he was ok as a person, that he wasn’t a failure, that even if he had let Dean down that it didn’t matter. They were family and they would move on from it. There would be no one who could be a substitute for Sam, no monster, Benny or another vampire would take the place as Dean’s little brother. Garth was right when he said Sam had insecurities “and for good reason, bless his heart!” because this is the root of the anger for Sam.
I guess I mean to say that the “trust” that was broken was Dean lying to Sam about all the weird things that were happening to him due to the angel: fatigue, the missing blocks of time. Dean let him think that something was wrong with him. I believe that Dean knows this is the root cause of Sam’s distrust. Re-watching the end of the “rock and a hard place” Dean sees that it is getting too much for Sam and tries to tell him. Remember, at this point Dean knows that Sam isn’t well enough yet but goes ahead and tries to tell him, not because Gadreel was bad or had tricked him, but because Sam said “it’s always something else, we are always scrapping to find some other explanation when maybe it is just me. I’m a mess, Dean and you know it. And sometimes I feel like I’m never actually going to be alright.”
How many times in every episode did Sam question something and Dean blow him off, telling him it was nothing, it was the trials, we’ll work through it, have a little faith…Umm, like every single episode.
Sam will always be dealing with his issue (not being normal) and Dean will never stop trying to save him.
This might be an overly simplified way of looking at it. but it gives a legit reason why Sam would bring up that “church” conversation.Honestly, I see and feel both sides so keenly! I was like “yah” for Sam standing up for himself, and I was like Oh NO! when I saw the crushing look on Dean’s face. The pain, angst and self-loathing is ripping my heart out like a werewolf on a dinner run!
[quote]I thought SandraK’s interpretation of the guys conversation was perfect. . :-)[/quote]
Thanks cheryl 42! I had fun doing it.
Looking at it again tonight, it was a harsh conversation, but I got to thinking about what Dean said to Sam/Gadreel the first time he confessed what he’d done and was trying to warn Sam to kick Gadreel out. Dean said “we can do this over this later, you can kick my ass all you want, right now we have bigger problems.”
Dean strikes me as the kind of guy that would rather have someone beat him up over his mistakes than to emotional shunned. Even though he left Sam behind because he thought it was best for Sam, it was almost as if he couldn’t handle the silence anymore and wanted to have it out in any way that he could. However, Sam is not the kind to throw down to solve an issue. Dean knows that.
So, when Dean got out of that Impala, he knew that Sam had a few choice things to say. But he stayed and took it because he knows that is the only way Sam will deal with his anger. Dean knew he had it coming. He wanted on the bridge in fact. “Ok let me hear it.” In other words, come on get it over with, don’t wait around in silence, don’t hold it in…punish me already.
But it didn’t get over with then.
This conversation Dean needed to hear as much as Sam needed to get off his chest. It hurt like hell but so does getting tooth pulled. Somethings have to be painful before they better. But we can be honest. At this point, Dean is on a shopping trip for punishment- Mark of Cain having been at the top of that list- not for saving Sam’s life or for tricking Sam, although we know he’s sorry for hurting Sam in the process saving his life, but for Kevin. Kevin is the thread that is driving Dean crazy with guilt. Anyone notice the pain that engulfed his face, his quivering chin and how quick he was to admit guilt when talking to Garth? The line ‘I’ll burn for that, I will” about Kevin actually horrified me – I mean, Dean is talking about burning in Hell, right? Considering that Dean hasn’t forgotten about hell, it gives us an indication about how horrible he views his mistake.
We know how much Sam has view himself over the years, as a freak, a monster, being part demon and all. I thought that we’d moved past that until last season, when it flared up like a match in a fuel tank when he gave the talk to Dean about the how the trials were purifying him of the evil in him. I was shocked to realize that even to this day he is still keenly affected by it all. He saw the trials maybe more as redemption and that was why even though he didn’t finish them, he was ready to die. In that church when Dean told him that there “wasn’t anything past or present that I would put in front of you” he was speaking to that fear that Sam has. Sam failures, all the time he has let Dean down has been the result of the “monster/demon” part of him. Telling Sam that he was ok as a person, that he wasn’t a failure, that even if he had let Dean down that it didn’t matter. They were family and they would move on from it. There would be no one who could be a substitute for Sam, no monster, Benny or another vampire would take the place as Dean’s little brother. Garth was right when he said Sam had insecurities “and for good reason, bless his heart!” because this is the root of the anger for Sam.
I guess I mean to say that the “trust” that was broken was Dean lying to Sam about all the weird things that were happening to him due to the angel: fatigue, the missing blocks of time. Dean let him think that something was wrong with him. I believe that Dean knows this is the root cause of Sam’s distrust. Re-watching the end of the “rock and a hard place” Dean sees that it is getting too much for Sam and tries to tell him. Remember, at this point Dean knows that Sam isn’t well enough yet but goes ahead and tries to tell him, not because Gadreel was bad or had tricked him, but because Sam said “it’s always something else, we are always scrapping to find some other explanation when maybe it is just me. I’m a mess, Dean and you know it. And sometimes I feel like I’m never actually going to be alright.”
How many times in every episode did Sam question something and Dean blow him off, telling him it was nothing, it was the trials, we’ll work through it, have a little faith…Umm, like every single episode.
Sam will always be dealing with his issue (not being normal) and Dean will never stop trying to save him.
This might be an overly simplified way of looking at it. but it gives a legit reason why Sam would bring up that “church” conversation.Honestly, I see and feel both sides so keenly! I was like “yah” for Sam standing up for himself, and I was like Oh NO! when I saw the crushing look on Dean’s face. The pain, angst and self-loathing is ripping my heart out like a werewolf on a dinner run!
By the way, the images for this write up are spectacular!
On the note of the lovely, but very deadly kitty, if I were in a mood to fight over these boys, he’d stop me in my tracks. 🙂
Lastly, we’re ignoring the most terrifying line of all spoken by Dean: “Someone has to live to tell this story, who better than you?”
That sound you hear… yep. It’s wailing. I want Garth to live, don’t get me wrong. But it is so hard to to handle talk of them both dying. And for Dean to talk about dying, especially since he’s running recklessly towards self destruction… Man, it’s time to stock up on tissues.
Peace!
By the way, the images for this write up are spectacular!
On the note of the lovely, but very deadly kitty, if I were in a mood to fight over these boys, he’d stop me in my tracks. 🙂
Lastly, we’re ignoring the most terrifying line of all spoken by Dean: “Someone has to live to tell this story, who better than you?”
That sound you hear… yep. It’s wailing. I want Garth to live, don’t get me wrong. But it is so hard to to handle talk of them both dying. And for Dean to talk about dying, especially since he’s running recklessly towards self destruction… Man, it’s time to stock up on tissues.
Peace!
You has a cat.I likez you even more.
Your Cat is gorgeous…Looks like has a mane.Oh I want to squish her.Soft Kitty Warm Kitty Big ball of Furrrrrrrrrrr……
You has a cat.I likez you even more.
Your Cat is gorgeous…Looks like has a mane.Oh I want to squish her.Soft Kitty Warm Kitty Big ball of Furrrrrrrrrrr……
[quote name=”Sandra K”]By the way, the images for this write up are spectacular!
On the note of the lovely, but very deadly kitty, if I were in a mood to fight over these boys, he’d stop me in my tracks. 🙂
[b]Lastly, we’re ignoring the most terrifying line of all spoken by Dean: “Someone has to live to tell this story, who better than you?” [/b]
That sound you hear… yep. It’s wailing. I want Garth to live, don’t get me wrong. But it is so hard to to handle talk of them both dying. And for Dean to talk about dying, especially since he’s running recklessly towards self destruction… Man, it’s time to stock up on tissues.
Peace![/quote]WHY ..why did you remind me.Now I am really unhappy.
[quote]By the way, the images for this write up are spectacular!
On the note of the lovely, but very deadly kitty, if I were in a mood to fight over these boys, he’d stop me in my tracks. 🙂
[b]Lastly, we’re ignoring the most terrifying line of all spoken by Dean: “Someone has to live to tell this story, who better than you?” [/b]
That sound you hear… yep. It’s wailing. I want Garth to live, don’t get me wrong. But it is so hard to to handle talk of them both dying. And for Dean to talk about dying, especially since he’s running recklessly towards self destruction… Man, it’s time to stock up on tissues.
Peace![/quote]WHY ..why did you remind me.Now I am really unhappy.
The way Sam is written and even when he is justified in his feelings you still have to defend him and that end conversation causes more upset /hurt /sympathy for Dean than what was actually done to Sam to begin with . Then it is hard to come into the light but that is one beautiful kitty 🙂
The way Sam is written and even when he is justified in his feelings you still have to defend him and that end conversation causes more upset /hurt /sympathy for Dean than what was actually done to Sam to begin with . Then it is hard to come into the light but that is one beautiful kitty 🙂
Sandra K… you just summed it all up right there. I don’t really need to write anything else. 😉 That was a perfect blend of the two brothers and what they are going through. thank you.
Sandra K… you just summed it all up right there. I don’t really need to write anything else. 😉 That was a perfect blend of the two brothers and what they are going through. thank you.
I think Dean has a real masochistic part. He needs to feel pain to feel better about himself. I Remember in season 2 at the end of Bloodlust, he asked Sam to hit him after having tortured Gordon. There’s something in him that needs corporal punishment.
I think Dean has a real masochistic part. He needs to feel pain to feel better about himself. I Remember in season 2 at the end of Bloodlust, he asked Sam to hit him after having tortured Gordon. There’s something in him that needs corporal punishment.
SandraK, I think you’re right on with most of what you said, especially Dean’s feelings. I think the writers were clear on those. I’m sure that Sam was deeply hurt by the lies. Wouldn’t it have been great to hear Sam talk to Garth about that, to balance out all the guilt talk from Dean? Anyways, I’ll be very disappointed if the writers don’t deal with the consent issues and the fact that Dean had Sam possessed after the whole Lucifer debacle. To me, the lying is not nearly as bad. The guys have lied to each other over and over and that alone wouldn’t justify Sam’s harsh words IMO.
Maybe that’s why many, including the reviewers here, didn’t like the “talk”? They thought Sam was too hard on Dean because they see Dean’s lies as his biggest sin?
SandraK, I think you’re right on with most of what you said, especially Dean’s feelings. I think the writers were clear on those. I’m sure that Sam was deeply hurt by the lies. Wouldn’t it have been great to hear Sam talk to Garth about that, to balance out all the guilt talk from Dean? Anyways, I’ll be very disappointed if the writers don’t deal with the consent issues and the fact that Dean had Sam possessed after the whole Lucifer debacle. To me, the lying is not nearly as bad. The guys have lied to each other over and over and that alone wouldn’t justify Sam’s harsh words IMO.
Maybe that’s why many, including the reviewers here, didn’t like the “talk”? They thought Sam was too hard on Dean because they see Dean’s lies as his biggest sin?
[quote name=”JuliaG”]
1) I’ll be very disappointed if the writers don’t deal with the consent issues and the fact that Dean had Sam possessed after the whole Lucifer debacle. To me, the lying is not nearly as bad. The guys have lied to each other over and over and that alone wouldn’t justify Sam’s harsh words IMO.
[/quote]
Oh yes. Hummm- now you have my mind going again. I find this very a intriguing separation between the consent issue and Dean’s lying – do mean that Dean’s lying after the fact is not as serious a “sin” if you will, as the initial trickery?
I am going to slowly sip some more deliciously brewed coffee and ponder this… (Any excuse to spend lovely moments pondering the Winchesters).
Peace!
[quote]
1) I’ll be very disappointed if the writers don’t deal with the consent issues and the fact that Dean had Sam possessed after the whole Lucifer debacle. To me, the lying is not nearly as bad. The guys have lied to each other over and over and that alone wouldn’t justify Sam’s harsh words IMO.
[/quote]
Oh yes. Hummm- now you have my mind going again. I find this very a intriguing separation between the consent issue and Dean’s lying – do mean that Dean’s lying after the fact is not as serious a “sin” if you will, as the initial trickery?
I am going to slowly sip some more deliciously brewed coffee and ponder this… (Any excuse to spend lovely moments pondering the Winchesters).
Peace!
lol Sandra. And another latte for me too. Cheers.
lol Sandra. And another latte for me too. Cheers.
Your kitty looks like my darling Scruffy. When he arrived in my back yard he was a scruffy looking shy short hair. After vet visit and 1 month of living with me, he was a long hair and extremely beautiful just like yours! 🙂
Your kitty looks like my darling Scruffy. When he arrived in my back yard he was a scruffy looking shy short hair. After vet visit and 1 month of living with me, he was a long hair and extremely beautiful just like yours! 🙂
Replying to #5 JuliaG to say I agree with everything you’ve said, especially the one-sidedness of the writing. What really made me unhappy about Sharp Teeth (even though I did the like the ep) was how Dean got to do everything. This not an anti-Dean rant. It is entirely the fault of Adam Glass and the other SPN writers (who I’m pretty sure ‘beta’ each others scripts)
Dean did every kill, (the sherriff, the mom-in-law, the 2 cousins.) He also did the research, got to interact with the secondary characters and Garth. He was even the one who figured out that the deer body was too warm.
Glass could have given Sam the “too warm” clue and/or the sheriff kill without affecting the plot in anyway.
I’m wondering if Sam’s awesome kick to knock the gun away was in the script or added on the day of filming. It was pretty much the only ‘action’ Sam was given.
All this while Sam got told by Dean where to go and who to talk to, knocked over the head and tied up so he could wait to be rescued.
This is supposed to be a 2 lead show, but too often it feels like Sam is more of a supporting character.
Replying to #5 JuliaG to say I agree with everything you’ve said, especially the one-sidedness of the writing. What really made me unhappy about Sharp Teeth (even though I did the like the ep) was how Dean got to do everything. This not an anti-Dean rant. It is entirely the fault of Adam Glass and the other SPN writers (who I’m pretty sure ‘beta’ each others scripts)
Dean did every kill, (the sherriff, the mom-in-law, the 2 cousins.) He also did the research, got to interact with the secondary characters and Garth. He was even the one who figured out that the deer body was too warm.
Glass could have given Sam the “too warm” clue and/or the sheriff kill without affecting the plot in anyway.
I’m wondering if Sam’s awesome kick to knock the gun away was in the script or added on the day of filming. It was pretty much the only ‘action’ Sam was given.
All this while Sam got told by Dean where to go and who to talk to, knocked over the head and tied up so he could wait to be rescued.
This is supposed to be a 2 lead show, but too often it feels like Sam is more of a supporting character.
How did Dean just happen to remember the Norse lore in “Sharp Teeth”? Not saying he isn’t smart and hasn’t had his share of research, but he pulled that out of his noggin so easily.( ah yes, no Bobby, professor, Frank, etc) so maybe this is a good thing for Dean to be able to do now( Is it a Cainmark ability?). So with such a short amount of minutes, abbreviation of finding info is needed. Guess my kitty moment is that is was so obviously contrived. My other kitty moment is how long Sam talked to the preacher’s wife and then Dean shows up with a weapon, Sam only had the gift of calm gab and those long untied legs. Did anyone think Sam could talk her out of her action plan. Did anyone actually see Garth grow claws or fangs? He growled but is he actually one of the werewolves? Are we sure? Actually not complaining, just observing. Like this new approach for unhappy thoughts. Not really unhappy more of just wondering what others thought about these items. MEOW
How did Dean just happen to remember the Norse lore in “Sharp Teeth”? Not saying he isn’t smart and hasn’t had his share of research, but he pulled that out of his noggin so easily.( ah yes, no Bobby, professor, Frank, etc) so maybe this is a good thing for Dean to be able to do now( Is it a Cainmark ability?). So with such a short amount of minutes, abbreviation of finding info is needed. Guess my kitty moment is that is was so obviously contrived. My other kitty moment is how long Sam talked to the preacher’s wife and then Dean shows up with a weapon, Sam only had the gift of calm gab and those long untied legs. Did anyone think Sam could talk her out of her action plan. Did anyone actually see Garth grow claws or fangs? He growled but is he actually one of the werewolves? Are we sure? Actually not complaining, just observing. Like this new approach for unhappy thoughts. Not really unhappy more of just wondering what others thought about these items. MEOW
Hi JuliaG. And thanks for remembering me. (#5)
I hadn’t planned to come back until I could be more positive, but I’m not sure when that’s going to be possible. And I got stuff I need to rant about! 😮
Alice, if this is too negative, go ahead and edit or delete, but I need to get this said.
Bare with me here, as I’m thinking it through as I type:
I watch Supernatural for the relationship/chemistry/bond between Sam and Dean (or is that Jared and Jensen?). Their support of – and love for – each other has gotten me through some tough times. Their sibling teasing and rolling eyes have made me laugh when I was down, and I loved the fact that their bond became the deciding factor in the battle with Lucifer himself.
At that moment, they loved AND respected each other.
Somehow, somewhere along the way, that all went sideways. Their bond took some beatings in S6 and S7. While they seemed to rebuild it at the end of S6 (“..you know why, I’m not leaving my brother alone out there”), their relationship was tested again and became rather strained in S7. (I’ve often heard it said that they were more partners than brothers throughout that season).
Now,the new showrunner decided that the boys had to mature. Seems he felt their bond was unhealthy, and he didn’t want them so codependent…. But rather than build on that distant feeling of S7, and allow them to mature from that, he decided to absolutely BREAK that bond into pieces.
Under Carver’s reign, the brother bond that made Supernatural unique, that was the heart and soul of the show under Kripke, has been made into something TOXIC.
Rather than saving the world, Carver has twisted their bond. Using it to (continue to) kill off characters, to imperil the world rather than save it, and to drive wedges between the boys.
It’s no secret I hated the first half of season 8. In retrospect, I feel manipulated (see below). Rather than building on that last scene, maturing the boys from there, he’s broken them down further….
I would suggest introducing characters to the world, rather than killing them all off. I would have given Sam some support characters within the hunting world. Give him some help to look for Dean, rather than the false maturity of turning his back. (Sam has often been accused of running away from his troubles, so how has this helped him mature?)
Rather than making Benny a source of contention between the brothers, why not have him become friend to both… a way to have both brothers become more aware that they need to hunt EVIL rather than MONSTERS. Wouldn’t that be maturity?
Carver, rather than DESTROYING the one unique thing Supernatural had going for it, why not BUILD THEIR WORLD. Give them both characters to befriend and talk to. Give them both an outsiders view of their relationship and the world. EXPAND their world, rather than killing off/removing every other secondary character. Wouldn’t that help mature them? Wouldn’t their “evil codependency” be lessened if there were more people close to them?
I am totally unhappy with where Carver has taken my show and my brothers. I feel cheated, having stuck through season 8, made it to ‘Sacrifice’, which made S8s angst/drama seem somewhat worthwhile for the hope expressed, only to have it totally and completely soured in this latest episode.
I feel terrible for Jared – like the way Jensens awesome Purgatory stuff was ruined (imo) by the Amelia crap in season 8, Jareds awesome Sam/Zeke/Gad work has been ruined (for me) by this turn of events.
Carver, there were ways to lessen the codependency without making it seem an evil, toxic thing.
*Rant over*
Hi JuliaG. And thanks for remembering me. (#5)
I hadn’t planned to come back until I could be more positive, but I’m not sure when that’s going to be possible. And I got stuff I need to rant about! 😮
Alice, if this is too negative, go ahead and edit or delete, but I need to get this said.
Bare with me here, as I’m thinking it through as I type:
I watch Supernatural for the relationship/chemistry/bond between Sam and Dean (or is that Jared and Jensen?). Their support of – and love for – each other has gotten me through some tough times. Their sibling teasing and rolling eyes have made me laugh when I was down, and I loved the fact that their bond became the deciding factor in the battle with Lucifer himself.
At that moment, they loved AND respected each other.
Somehow, somewhere along the way, that all went sideways. Their bond took some beatings in S6 and S7. While they seemed to rebuild it at the end of S6 (“..you know why, I’m not leaving my brother alone out there”), their relationship was tested again and became rather strained in S7. (I’ve often heard it said that they were more partners than brothers throughout that season).
Now,the new showrunner decided that the boys had to mature. Seems he felt their bond was unhealthy, and he didn’t want them so codependent…. But rather than build on that distant feeling of S7, and allow them to mature from that, he decided to absolutely BREAK that bond into pieces.
Under Carver’s reign, the brother bond that made Supernatural unique, that was the heart and soul of the show under Kripke, has been made into something TOXIC.
Rather than saving the world, Carver has twisted their bond. Using it to (continue to) kill off characters, to imperil the world rather than save it, and to drive wedges between the boys.
It’s no secret I hated the first half of season 8. In retrospect, I feel manipulated (see below). Rather than building on that last scene, maturing the boys from there, he’s broken them down further….
I would suggest introducing characters to the world, rather than killing them all off. I would have given Sam some support characters within the hunting world. Give him some help to look for Dean, rather than the false maturity of turning his back. (Sam has often been accused of running away from his troubles, so how has this helped him mature?)
Rather than making Benny a source of contention between the brothers, why not have him become friend to both… a way to have both brothers become more aware that they need to hunt EVIL rather than MONSTERS. Wouldn’t that be maturity?
Carver, rather than DESTROYING the one unique thing Supernatural had going for it, why not BUILD THEIR WORLD. Give them both characters to befriend and talk to. Give them both an outsiders view of their relationship and the world. EXPAND their world, rather than killing off/removing every other secondary character. Wouldn’t that help mature them? Wouldn’t their “evil codependency” be lessened if there were more people close to them?
I am totally unhappy with where Carver has taken my show and my brothers. I feel cheated, having stuck through season 8, made it to ‘Sacrifice’, which made S8s angst/drama seem somewhat worthwhile for the hope expressed, only to have it totally and completely soured in this latest episode.
I feel terrible for Jared – like the way Jensens awesome Purgatory stuff was ruined (imo) by the Amelia crap in season 8, Jareds awesome Sam/Zeke/Gad work has been ruined (for me) by this turn of events.
Carver, there were ways to lessen the codependency without making it seem an evil, toxic thing.
*Rant over*
Aw St, your post is making me crying. If making the brothers relationship as it was “toxic” and destructive then that is not the show I signed up for. I don’t mind change. Change is needed so the show doesn’t stagnate, but if the end result of this storyline is that they shouldn’t love each other as much as they do or that there past relationship was somehow all bad-then I should probably stop watching now.
BUT it is possible that they are planning on going a completely other way with this. The fact that Sam kind went immediately to “You say that like it’s some sort of cure-all, like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we’re family.” could actually be a good indication. Because it’s almost setting the show up to disprove that in the end. Just like when Dean said they should pick different hemispheres. That they were more vulnerable when they were together, which was true, but it also ended up being what saved the world.
IF Sam was saying that their connection, their co dependence, is a destructive force, well that’s sometimes true too, BUT perhaps they are setting it up to show that it is also extremely powerful in a GOOD way. It just needs to be tempered at times. Which I would be good with. I’ll admit I’m still very gunshy after last season. But I think they COULD make this work.
Aw St, your post is making me crying. If making the brothers relationship as it was “toxic” and destructive then that is not the show I signed up for. I don’t mind change. Change is needed so the show doesn’t stagnate, but if the end result of this storyline is that they shouldn’t love each other as much as they do or that there past relationship was somehow all bad-then I should probably stop watching now.
BUT it is possible that they are planning on going a completely other way with this. The fact that Sam kind went immediately to “You say that like it’s some sort of cure-all, like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we’re family.” could actually be a good indication. Because it’s almost setting the show up to disprove that in the end. Just like when Dean said they should pick different hemispheres. That they were more vulnerable when they were together, which was true, but it also ended up being what saved the world.
IF Sam was saying that their connection, their co dependence, is a destructive force, well that’s sometimes true too, BUT perhaps they are setting it up to show that it is also extremely powerful in a GOOD way. It just needs to be tempered at times. Which I would be good with. I’ll admit I’m still very gunshy after last season. But I think they COULD make this work.
St50 – excellent post. I made a similar rant myself. The brother’s relationship was the heart and soul of the show in the Kripke years but it was not the myth arc. Even in “Sharp Teeth” I don’t think the Lycan had actually killed anyone until Sam and Dean showed up. They seem to be a catalyst lately for evil to happen. When Dean said, “What was right is wrong and what’s wrong is more wrong.” kind of sums up the show for me lately. I question why the hunter named Tara had to die. Up until then the demon was having no trouble tracking them on his own. It was pointless to the plot unless it was to say Dean is poison.
Kelly – I’m sure the brothers will work it out, but how many times can they do this and still have the feels (or even believe in them) when they do come back together?
St50 – excellent post. I made a similar rant myself. The brother’s relationship was the heart and soul of the show in the Kripke years but it was not the myth arc. Even in “Sharp Teeth” I don’t think the Lycan had actually killed anyone until Sam and Dean showed up. They seem to be a catalyst lately for evil to happen. When Dean said, “What was right is wrong and what’s wrong is more wrong.” kind of sums up the show for me lately. I question why the hunter named Tara had to die. Up until then the demon was having no trouble tracking them on his own. It was pointless to the plot unless it was to say Dean is poison.
Kelly – I’m sure the brothers will work it out, but how many times can they do this and still have the feels (or even believe in them) when they do come back together?
Hi st50 🙂 I love your post. I DO NOT consider this type of comment a rant. Being unhappy and expressing that unhappiness in an intelligent and heartfelt way to me is not what I would call a rant, ever!
Hi st50 🙂 I love your post. I DO NOT consider this type of comment a rant. Being unhappy and expressing that unhappiness in an intelligent and heartfelt way to me is not what I would call a rant, ever!
[quote name=”VyperDD”]Replying to #5 JuliaG to say I agree with everything you’ve said, especially the one-sidedness of the writing. What really made me unhappy about Sharp Teeth (even though I did the like the ep) was how Dean got to do everything. This not an anti-Dean rant. It is entirely the fault of Adam Glass and the other SPN writers (who I’m pretty sure ‘beta’ each others scripts)
Dean did every kill, (the sherriff, the mom-in-law, the 2 cousins.) He also did the research, got to interact with the secondary characters and Garth. He was even the one who figured out that the deer body was too warm.
Glass could have given Sam the “too warm” clue and/or the sheriff kill without affecting the plot in anyway.
I’m wondering if Sam’s awesome kick to knock the gun away was in the script or added on the day of filming. It was pretty much the only ‘action’ Sam was given.
All this while Sam got told by Dean where to go and who to talk to, knocked over the head and tied up so he could wait to be rescued.
This is supposed to be a 2 lead show, but too often it feels like Sam is more of a supporting character.[/quote]
Wow….you’ve really hit the nail on the head. Remember season 1? remember Shadow? Sam had his own knife, cut himself free and head butted genuine Meg. He was a proactive hunter, smart and kick ass. Had relationships with people other then Dean
Now…he’s become a sentient seat warmer for the impala who gets his own arse kicked on a redgular basis. Why does Dean need or want Sam around when he can evidently do everything by himself?
[quote]Replying to #5 JuliaG to say I agree with everything you’ve said, especially the one-sidedness of the writing. What really made me unhappy about Sharp Teeth (even though I did the like the ep) was how Dean got to do everything. This not an anti-Dean rant. It is entirely the fault of Adam Glass and the other SPN writers (who I’m pretty sure ‘beta’ each others scripts)
Dean did every kill, (the sherriff, the mom-in-law, the 2 cousins.) He also did the research, got to interact with the secondary characters and Garth. He was even the one who figured out that the deer body was too warm.
Glass could have given Sam the “too warm” clue and/or the sheriff kill without affecting the plot in anyway.
I’m wondering if Sam’s awesome kick to knock the gun away was in the script or added on the day of filming. It was pretty much the only ‘action’ Sam was given.
All this while Sam got told by Dean where to go and who to talk to, knocked over the head and tied up so he could wait to be rescued.
This is supposed to be a 2 lead show, but too often it feels like Sam is more of a supporting character.[/quote]
Wow….you’ve really hit the nail on the head. Remember season 1? remember Shadow? Sam had his own knife, cut himself free and head butted genuine Meg. He was a proactive hunter, smart and kick ass. Had relationships with people other then Dean
Now…he’s become a sentient seat warmer for the impala who gets his own arse kicked on a redgular basis. Why does Dean need or want Sam around when he can evidently do everything by himself?
I would agree that Sam is lacking in POV the last couple of seasons, but I don’t think the writing for Dean has really been very good either–don’t forget that last season he was basically Sam’s nursemaid for the second half of the season. I find the writing to be rather lack-luster in general lately. Don’t get me started on how they started something interesting with Cas and basically just dropped it. It really just comes down to poor storytelling for me.
I was fairly annoyed through much of the back half of last season and have been more annoyed this one. It seemed like I had to work very hard to make an episode work let alone make it entertaining. But recently I decided that no matter how much I dislike an episode to find something I liked and hold on to that. For Sharp Teeth, it was Garth’s line about the jawlines and the hair. Very intimidating indeed. ; )
Anyway, I know how y’all feel, there are definite problems, but **she puts on her best Polly Anna face*** here’s to hoping things will improve!
I would agree that Sam is lacking in POV the last couple of seasons, but I don’t think the writing for Dean has really been very good either–don’t forget that last season he was basically Sam’s nursemaid for the second half of the season. I find the writing to be rather lack-luster in general lately. Don’t get me started on how they started something interesting with Cas and basically just dropped it. It really just comes down to poor storytelling for me.
I was fairly annoyed through much of the back half of last season and have been more annoyed this one. It seemed like I had to work very hard to make an episode work let alone make it entertaining. But recently I decided that no matter how much I dislike an episode to find something I liked and hold on to that. For Sharp Teeth, it was Garth’s line about the jawlines and the hair. Very intimidating indeed. ; )
Anyway, I know how y’all feel, there are definite problems, but **she puts on her best Polly Anna face*** here’s to hoping things will improve!
[quote name=”ME”]I would agree that Sam is lacking in POV the last couple of seasons, but I don’t think the writing for Dean has really been very good either–don’t forget that last season he was basically Sam’s nursemaid for the second half of the season. I find the writing to be rather lack-luster in general lately. Don’t get me started on how they started something interesting with Cas and basically just dropped it. It really just comes down to poor storytelling for me.
[/quote]
Its true, Dean was pretty inactive in the back half of season 8, but I love doting/caring/motherly Dean, so I really enjoyed him in this role, but can completely see why others didn’t. BAMF Dean is pretty awesome too, and we’ve luckily been getting a lot of him lately. The major difference for me is in the POV and emotional insight, that’s where the real problem lies, not so much in the action sequences or plot. To say the writing there has been unbalanced is the understatement of the entire series. Even when Dean is not as active in the action and plot as some would like, we ALWAYS know how he’s feeling and why he does what he does. The PTB practically fell over themselves in the early episodes of this season making sure we knew how trapped in an impossible situation he felt that he was; why he decided what he did for Sam, how much guilt he felt over his actions and the repercussions of those actions. Episodes and episodes of insight and detail, and because Sam wasn’t really Sam, on him we got next to nothing, or often bits that we couldn’t trust was accurate. Now that Sam is Sam again, what have we had regarding his feelings and POV? Well, we know how Cas feels about human life now, how he survived his time as a human; we got insight into Crowley and his battle with Abbadon, and reams and reams about Dean’s guilt, but not much from Sam at all, still. It does a real disservice to his character to keep him so silent and isolated. How, as audience members are we supposed to relate to or cheer for a character who is basically mute? Then when the brothers have an inflammatory conversation like the one they had in Sharp Teeth, most fans will sympathize with Dean and his desires and feelings because we get them, we’ve seen them, we can relate to them. Sam’s been called mean, unfeeling, harsh, cold (shades of SS) simply because we have no context for his reaction. It’s unfair and one of my major complaints about how this show’s been written since pretty much season 4, when Kripke claimed that they were telling Sam’s story “in the background.” He’s never been moved to the fore ground since then. We need a Sam episode, one in which he talks (and I mean HE talks, not Dean, not Cas, not Crowley, not whomever) and HE tells us how hurt HE’S feeling about events that have occurred to HIM. Just Sam and his thoughts and feelings; a whole episode… I challenge you writers… do it!
[quote]I would agree that Sam is lacking in POV the last couple of seasons, but I don’t think the writing for Dean has really been very good either–don’t forget that last season he was basically Sam’s nursemaid for the second half of the season. I find the writing to be rather lack-luster in general lately. Don’t get me started on how they started something interesting with Cas and basically just dropped it. It really just comes down to poor storytelling for me.
[/quote]
Its true, Dean was pretty inactive in the back half of season 8, but I love doting/caring/motherly Dean, so I really enjoyed him in this role, but can completely see why others didn’t. BAMF Dean is pretty awesome too, and we’ve luckily been getting a lot of him lately. The major difference for me is in the POV and emotional insight, that’s where the real problem lies, not so much in the action sequences or plot. To say the writing there has been unbalanced is the understatement of the entire series. Even when Dean is not as active in the action and plot as some would like, we ALWAYS know how he’s feeling and why he does what he does. The PTB practically fell over themselves in the early episodes of this season making sure we knew how trapped in an impossible situation he felt that he was; why he decided what he did for Sam, how much guilt he felt over his actions and the repercussions of those actions. Episodes and episodes of insight and detail, and because Sam wasn’t really Sam, on him we got next to nothing, or often bits that we couldn’t trust was accurate. Now that Sam is Sam again, what have we had regarding his feelings and POV? Well, we know how Cas feels about human life now, how he survived his time as a human; we got insight into Crowley and his battle with Abbadon, and reams and reams about Dean’s guilt, but not much from Sam at all, still. It does a real disservice to his character to keep him so silent and isolated. How, as audience members are we supposed to relate to or cheer for a character who is basically mute? Then when the brothers have an inflammatory conversation like the one they had in Sharp Teeth, most fans will sympathize with Dean and his desires and feelings because we get them, we’ve seen them, we can relate to them. Sam’s been called mean, unfeeling, harsh, cold (shades of SS) simply because we have no context for his reaction. It’s unfair and one of my major complaints about how this show’s been written since pretty much season 4, when Kripke claimed that they were telling Sam’s story “in the background.” He’s never been moved to the fore ground since then. We need a Sam episode, one in which he talks (and I mean HE talks, not Dean, not Cas, not Crowley, not whomever) and HE tells us how hurt HE’S feeling about events that have occurred to HIM. Just Sam and his thoughts and feelings; a whole episode… I challenge you writers… do it!
What has me not happy is how all the negativity and complaining is making it hard to hold on to my love for the show, which I still have. There’s something to like about every season for me. I respect other’s opinions but I just love Supernatural unconditonally. It used to be my happy place, now it’s my sometimes happy place.
What has me not happy is how all the negativity and complaining is making it hard to hold on to my love for the show, which I still have. There’s something to like about every season for me. I respect other’s opinions but I just love Supernatural unconditonally. It used to be my happy place, now it’s my sometimes happy place.
Never mind, alice.
I am editing myself.
Never mind, alice.
I am editing myself.
st50
I’m sorry you thought my comment was geared specifically towards you, that was not my intention and I’m sorry truly it came across that way. I meant the overall negativity, not from one specific person. Please don’t feel you can’t express that. You’re definitely allowed it as I am allowed to be bugged by it. It would be a boring world if we all felt the same way.
st50
I’m sorry you thought my comment was geared specifically towards you, that was not my intention and I’m sorry truly it came across that way. I meant the overall negativity, not from one specific person. Please don’t feel you can’t express that. You’re definitely allowed it as I am allowed to be bugged by it. It would be a boring world if we all felt the same way.
@29 [b]st50[/b] Please stick around. Alice and I discussed making this thread for people like you and me who are unhappy. It is supposed to give us a place to express that without upsetting the people who are happy and who want to enjoy the show. As a Sam fan, I too am very unhappy with much of what is happening on the show and I too want a place to discuss it and people to discuss it with.
@29 [b]st50[/b] Please stick around. Alice and I discussed making this thread for people like you and me who are unhappy. It is supposed to give us a place to express that without upsetting the people who are happy and who want to enjoy the show. As a Sam fan, I too am very unhappy with much of what is happening on the show and I too want a place to discuss it and people to discuss it with.
St 50, I dont’ think that Melissa Lynn was addressing your post specifically, she was just posting her own feelings based on how negative the fandom has become lately and how much it bothers her. It gets to me too as I am sure it bothers you as well. I don’t see her in any way telling you that you are ‘not allowed’ to air your views; I am not sure where you are picking that up from, as its not in the post at all. I have always looked forward to your posts. As an avid Sam girl I want to know your take on things; there’s so few of us, we have to stick together. Please don’t find criticism where none exists and continue to post your feelings, negative, positive and everything in between!
St 50, I dont’ think that Melissa Lynn was addressing your post specifically, she was just posting her own feelings based on how negative the fandom has become lately and how much it bothers her. It gets to me too as I am sure it bothers you as well. I don’t see her in any way telling you that you are ‘not allowed’ to air your views; I am not sure where you are picking that up from, as its not in the post at all. I have always looked forward to your posts. As an avid Sam girl I want to know your take on things; there’s so few of us, we have to stick together. Please don’t find criticism where none exists and continue to post your feelings, negative, positive and everything in between!
.
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I agree with most of what has been said about the lack of Sam POV. The fact he’s knocked out in every episode and never gets to talk to anyone. It astounds me that HE is being regarded as unfair by many fans after what Dean did to him, but I can see why given how little we see of his emotions and thoughts.
I’m also unhappy about how they’re writing Dean. He’s starting to come across as a complete idiot. Cain tries to warn him about the consequences of the Mark and he’s like ‘oh whatever, get on with it’. That’s not the smart hunter I know from other seasons.
The very first thing I thought when Cas was vouching for ‘Ezekiel’ was, ‘well, IS it really Ezekiel?’. Given how sneaky and manipulative angels have been in the past, this never even occurs to Dean? And, OK, he didn’t have chance to check in the hospital but he never even asked Cas to look into it afterwards.
And as for maturity, what about the decision to take on The Trials without investigating possible bad consequences? For me, maturity would have been learning from the mistakes that led Dean and Sam to breaking the first and last seal respectively, and making exactly sure they knew what they were doing in trying to close Hell.
So that’s TWO beloved characters that are being trashed by sloppy writing.
ARGH!
I agree with most of what has been said about the lack of Sam POV. The fact he’s knocked out in every episode and never gets to talk to anyone. It astounds me that HE is being regarded as unfair by many fans after what Dean did to him, but I can see why given how little we see of his emotions and thoughts.
I’m also unhappy about how they’re writing Dean. He’s starting to come across as a complete idiot. Cain tries to warn him about the consequences of the Mark and he’s like ‘oh whatever, get on with it’. That’s not the smart hunter I know from other seasons.
The very first thing I thought when Cas was vouching for ‘Ezekiel’ was, ‘well, IS it really Ezekiel?’. Given how sneaky and manipulative angels have been in the past, this never even occurs to Dean? And, OK, he didn’t have chance to check in the hospital but he never even asked Cas to look into it afterwards.
And as for maturity, what about the decision to take on The Trials without investigating possible bad consequences? For me, maturity would have been learning from the mistakes that led Dean and Sam to breaking the first and last seal respectively, and making exactly sure they knew what they were doing in trying to close Hell.
So that’s TWO beloved characters that are being trashed by sloppy writing.
ARGH!
[quote name=”Manzanita Crow”]So that’s TWO beloved characters that are being trashed by sloppy writing.
ARGH![/quote]
This was what I was trying to get at earlier. I just feel the writing in general has been pretty poor lately and no character seems to be immune. Dean has become a moron, Sam’s basically a giant snowflake, Cas is apparently comic relief and pile on the fact that I have to ignore a great deal of many episodes to make them make sense, well, I’m just not inspired by any of it since Carver took over. But hey, it could get better, right?
[quote]So that’s TWO beloved characters that are being trashed by sloppy writing.
ARGH![/quote]
This was what I was trying to get at earlier. I just feel the writing in general has been pretty poor lately and no character seems to be immune. Dean has become a moron, Sam’s basically a giant snowflake, Cas is apparently comic relief and pile on the fact that I have to ignore a great deal of many episodes to make them make sense, well, I’m just not inspired by any of it since Carver took over. But hey, it could get better, right?
[quote name=”Manzanita Crow”]I agree with most of what has been said about the lack of Sam POV. The fact he’s knocked out in every episode and never gets to talk to anyone. It astounds me that HE is being regarded as unfair by many fans after what Dean did to him, but I can see why given how little we see of his emotions and thoughts. ![/quote]
Yes, the double standard is a killer isn’t it? In season 4 when Sam does this terrible thing, everyone sympathizes with Dean. Now, in season 9, when Dean does this terrible thing, everyone sympathizes with Dean. I don’t get it!
[quote name=”Manzanita Crow”]
I’m also unhappy about how they’re writing Dean. He’s starting to come across as a complete idiot. Cain tries to warn him about the consequences of the Mark and he’s like ‘oh whatever, get on with it’. That’s not the smart hunter I know from other seasons.
[/quote]
Yeah, he is being dumb lately isn’t he? And he’s also being dictatorial as well, especially in this last episode. To say he was being close minded and inflexible where Garth was concerned is an understatement. I see that the lessons of Benny and giving worthy monsters a break didn’t last long did they. Then he was ordering everyone around all episode long and finally he lied to Sam AGAIN. I liked the episode pretty well even given the weak MOW, but I didn’t like Dean in the episode. Maybe some of his behavior is because of the MoC, but if so, they’d better make that more clear, because in this episode Dean was acting like a douche. I like smart, snappy, marshmallow inside, BAMF Dean, where has HE been lately?
[quote]I agree with most of what has been said about the lack of Sam POV. The fact he’s knocked out in every episode and never gets to talk to anyone. It astounds me that HE is being regarded as unfair by many fans after what Dean did to him, but I can see why given how little we see of his emotions and thoughts. ![/quote]
Yes, the double standard is a killer isn’t it? In season 4 when Sam does this terrible thing, everyone sympathizes with Dean. Now, in season 9, when Dean does this terrible thing, everyone sympathizes with Dean. I don’t get it!
[quote]
I’m also unhappy about how they’re writing Dean. He’s starting to come across as a complete idiot. Cain tries to warn him about the consequences of the Mark and he’s like ‘oh whatever, get on with it’. That’s not the smart hunter I know from other seasons.
[/quote]
Yeah, he is being dumb lately isn’t he? And he’s also being dictatorial as well, especially in this last episode. To say he was being close minded and inflexible where Garth was concerned is an understatement. I see that the lessons of Benny and giving worthy monsters a break didn’t last long did they. Then he was ordering everyone around all episode long and finally he lied to Sam AGAIN. I liked the episode pretty well even given the weak MOW, but I didn’t like Dean in the episode. Maybe some of his behavior is because of the MoC, but if so, they’d better make that more clear, because in this episode Dean was acting like a douche. I like smart, snappy, marshmallow inside, BAMF Dean, where has HE been lately?
[quote][quote name=”E”][quote name=”Manzanita Crow”]I agree with most of what has been said about the lack of Sam POV. The fact he’s knocked out in every episode and never gets to talk to anyone. It astounds me that HE is being regarded as unfair by many fans after what Dean did to him, but I can see why given how little we see of his emotions and thoughts. ![/quote]
Yes, the double standard is a killer isn’t it? In season 4 when Sam does this terrible thing, everyone sympathizes with Dean. Now, in season 9, when Dean does this terrible thing, everyone sympathizes with Dean. I don’t get it![/quote]
YES! This! I don’t get it either. I’ve been reading reviews and comments all around the fandom and I’ve just been flabbergasted by the lack of sympathy for Sam after this episode. The double standard sure is one hell of a killer. 🙁
This then ties into my other complaint (which has been ongoing since S4 :sigh: ) which is the imbalance in POV and emotional insight given to Sam and Dean. If we got to hear more about Sam’s thoughts, feelings and torment maybe there would be more sympathy for him.
After the recent cons I read tweets that said that there was going to be a crying Sam scene coming up soon. That hasn’t materialised yet. Perhaps it was cut. 🙁
[quote][quote][quote]I agree with most of what has been said about the lack of Sam POV. The fact he’s knocked out in every episode and never gets to talk to anyone. It astounds me that HE is being regarded as unfair by many fans after what Dean did to him, but I can see why given how little we see of his emotions and thoughts. ![/quote]
Yes, the double standard is a killer isn’t it? In season 4 when Sam does this terrible thing, everyone sympathizes with Dean. Now, in season 9, when Dean does this terrible thing, everyone sympathizes with Dean. I don’t get it![/quote]
YES! This! I don’t get it either. I’ve been reading reviews and comments all around the fandom and I’ve just been flabbergasted by the lack of sympathy for Sam after this episode. The double standard sure is one hell of a killer. 🙁
This then ties into my other complaint (which has been ongoing since S4 :sigh: ) which is the imbalance in POV and emotional insight given to Sam and Dean. If we got to hear more about Sam’s thoughts, feelings and torment maybe there would be more sympathy for him.
After the recent cons I read tweets that said that there was going to be a crying Sam scene coming up soon. That hasn’t materialised yet. Perhaps it was cut. 🙁
[quote name=”Gwen”][quote][quote name=”E”][quote name=”Manzanita Crow”]I agree with most of what has been said about the lack of Sam POV. The fact he’s knocked out in every episode and never gets to talk to anyone. It astounds me that HE is being regarded as unfair by many fans after what Dean did to him, but I can see why given how little we see of his emotions and thoughts. ![/quote]
Yes, the double standard is a killer isn’t it? In season 4 when Sam does this terrible thing, everyone sympathizes with Dean. Now, in season 9, when Dean does this terrible thing, everyone sympathizes with Dean. I don’t get it![/quote]
YES! This! I don’t get it either. I’ve been reading reviews and comments all around the fandom and I’ve just been flabbergasted by the lack of sympathy for Sam after this episode. The double standard sure is one hell of a killer. 🙁
This then ties into my other complaint (which has been ongoing since S4 :sigh: ) which is the imbalance in POV and emotional insight given to Sam and Dean. If we got to hear more about Sam’s thoughts, feelings and torment maybe there would be more sympathy for him.
After the recent cons I read tweets that said that there was going to be a crying Sam scene coming up soon. That hasn’t materialised yet. Perhaps it was cut. :sad:[/quote]
Lack of Sam POV is exactly my main problem with SPN.
The double standard is my next problem and I find it appalling.
I just hope that what Sam said about their relationship and how it has to change doesn’t get glossed over like it usually does. Sam has a right to how he feels. I just wish they’d actually show him discussing it with someone who is not Dean.
[quote][quote][quote][quote]I agree with most of what has been said about the lack of Sam POV. The fact he’s knocked out in every episode and never gets to talk to anyone. It astounds me that HE is being regarded as unfair by many fans after what Dean did to him, but I can see why given how little we see of his emotions and thoughts. ![/quote]
Yes, the double standard is a killer isn’t it? In season 4 when Sam does this terrible thing, everyone sympathizes with Dean. Now, in season 9, when Dean does this terrible thing, everyone sympathizes with Dean. I don’t get it![/quote]
YES! This! I don’t get it either. I’ve been reading reviews and comments all around the fandom and I’ve just been flabbergasted by the lack of sympathy for Sam after this episode. The double standard sure is one hell of a killer. 🙁
This then ties into my other complaint (which has been ongoing since S4 :sigh: ) which is the imbalance in POV and emotional insight given to Sam and Dean. If we got to hear more about Sam’s thoughts, feelings and torment maybe there would be more sympathy for him.
After the recent cons I read tweets that said that there was going to be a crying Sam scene coming up soon. That hasn’t materialised yet. Perhaps it was cut. :sad:[/quote]
Lack of Sam POV is exactly my main problem with SPN.
The double standard is my next problem and I find it appalling.
I just hope that what Sam said about their relationship and how it has to change doesn’t get glossed over like it usually does. Sam has a right to how he feels. I just wish they’d actually show him discussing it with someone who is not Dean.
Hi, st50, leah! Nice to hear from you!
I have a question and don’t know where to discuss it.
I think the viewers know that religious beliefs are rewritten from our world for the show’s world all the time. Where was it explained that there would be no “side effects” from closing the gates of hell? People seem to post/believe/assume that closing the gates of hell forever would be an absolutely good thing, saving lives.
I am not very religious in this universe, but in the SPN universe, I tend to think that if the gates of hell HAD been closed forever, there would be horrific consequences for Dean and Resurrected!Sam to fight. (Then just think of the arguments about THAT storyline!!!)
Why is it that we think closing the gates of hell forever would have been all “good?”
PS: I’m not arguing here. I’m just curious and naïve as usual. I wanted to know the consequences before the First Trial, but those brothers just went ahead like they always do. 🙂
Hi, st50, leah! Nice to hear from you!
I have a question and don’t know where to discuss it.
I think the viewers know that religious beliefs are rewritten from our world for the show’s world all the time. Where was it explained that there would be no “side effects” from closing the gates of hell? People seem to post/believe/assume that closing the gates of hell forever would be an absolutely good thing, saving lives.
I am not very religious in this universe, but in the SPN universe, I tend to think that if the gates of hell HAD been closed forever, there would be horrific consequences for Dean and Resurrected!Sam to fight. (Then just think of the arguments about THAT storyline!!!)
Why is it that we think closing the gates of hell forever would have been all “good?”
PS: I’m not arguing here. I’m just curious and naïve as usual. I wanted to know the consequences before the First Trial, but those brothers just went ahead like they always do. 🙂
Sorry I’m a little behind on he moderating. I’ve been trying to deal with some woeful neglect on my other site.
This is a general reminder. Unless your post was quoted, your name mentioned or the post number given, it is not a direct response to you! So keep the tempers to a minimum. Also, remember the kitty rule, no attacking other posters for their opinions.
St50, you have every right to be negative on this thread! It was created for frustrated fans like yourself. I have to isolate the negativity in other threads though. It was impacting general visitors on the site. Only two percent of visitors post. The rest don’t want to read spewing comments of frustration, even if it is valid.
This is the “I’m not happy” thread. MelissaLynn has every right to say what makes her unhappy. Negative posts is a darn good reason! The attack on her wasn’t warranted, especially when she didn’t identify anyone in particular.
I’ll be editing comments later, but please avoid jumping on other posters. If you don’t like it, use Report To Administrator or Contact Us.
Thank you.
Sorry I’m a little behind on he moderating. I’ve been trying to deal with some woeful neglect on my other site.
This is a general reminder. Unless your post was quoted, your name mentioned or the post number given, it is not a direct response to you! So keep the tempers to a minimum. Also, remember the kitty rule, no attacking other posters for their opinions.
St50, you have every right to be negative on this thread! It was created for frustrated fans like yourself. I have to isolate the negativity in other threads though. It was impacting general visitors on the site. Only two percent of visitors post. The rest don’t want to read spewing comments of frustration, even if it is valid.
This is the “I’m not happy” thread. MelissaLynn has every right to say what makes her unhappy. Negative posts is a darn good reason! The attack on her wasn’t warranted, especially when she didn’t identify anyone in particular.
I’ll be editing comments later, but please avoid jumping on other posters. If you don’t like it, use Report To Administrator or Contact Us.
Thank you.
I’m totally confused Alice. On the one hand, you decide to crack down on negative posts and I understand that. And now we have an episode where most of the reviewers on this site didn’t like what Sam said, and now you’re loosening up the rules because the reviewers were critical?
Hypothetical question: Let’s say we get an episode that the reviewers here like, but I really have problems with, say, Dean’s behavior in that episode and I want to talk about it, is it allowed? Or is it too negative?
I’m totally confused Alice. On the one hand, you decide to crack down on negative posts and I understand that. And now we have an episode where most of the reviewers on this site didn’t like what Sam said, and now you’re loosening up the rules because the reviewers were critical?
Hypothetical question: Let’s say we get an episode that the reviewers here like, but I really have problems with, say, Dean’s behavior in that episode and I want to talk about it, is it allowed? Or is it too negative?
JuliaG. Reviewers are allowed to be critical. Heck, they have to be! It’s in the job description. I think you’re confusing constructive criticism with excessive negativity. I go through all the reviews before posting them and none were in my mind overly negative. They had concerns and expressed them properly.
Of course you’re allowed to express issues with Dean’s behavior. It’s all in tone and presentation. That’s what I’m trying to control. Here’s an example:
#1 Constructive criticism: “I’m not very happy with the way Dean’s behavior was handled this week. I think they’re writing him out of character.”
#2 Negative ranting: “What the Hell are these writers smoking? They’re making Dean to be a stupid jerk and Sam to be a whiny bitch. I can’t handle this s*** anymore!!!!”
So, you see, #1 is preferred over the other. You would be amazed how many discussions broke out into fights and took the tone of the second statement. A lot. It’s easy to do when tempers flare. So that’s the difference.
Of course I also have the Let’s Discuss threads that are lax on the rules and allow that venting from #2 without editing. Just as long and you’re not attacking other posters and their opinions.
JuliaG. Reviewers are allowed to be critical. Heck, they have to be! It’s in the job description. I think you’re confusing constructive criticism with excessive negativity. I go through all the reviews before posting them and none were in my mind overly negative. They had concerns and expressed them properly.
Of course you’re allowed to express issues with Dean’s behavior. It’s all in tone and presentation. That’s what I’m trying to control. Here’s an example:
#1 Constructive criticism: “I’m not very happy with the way Dean’s behavior was handled this week. I think they’re writing him out of character.”
#2 Negative ranting: “What the Hell are these writers smoking? They’re making Dean to be a stupid jerk and Sam to be a whiny bitch. I can’t handle this s*** anymore!!!!”
So, you see, #1 is preferred over the other. You would be amazed how many discussions broke out into fights and took the tone of the second statement. A lot. It’s easy to do when tempers flare. So that’s the difference.
Of course I also have the Let’s Discuss threads that are lax on the rules and allow that venting from #2 without editing. Just as long and you’re not attacking other posters and their opinions.
Moved over from Gerry’s “Breaking Bonds” review.
Geordiegirl1967:
I was disgusted and heartbroken by this ep.
I almost gave up after the stupid Sam not looking for Dean debacle, but the 2nd half of s8 pulled me back in. But again I feel myself drifting away from the show I love and this time I think (although it breaks my heart to say it) it may be permanent.
I fear JC has lost sight of the fact that the brothers relationship is the heart of this show, the element that sets it apart from every other show, the reason a huge chunk of the audience watch, and the reason SPN is still thriving after 9 years. I also fear that he can’t think of any other way to pad out the seasons mytharc other than demolishing then rebuilding the brothers relationship. Trouble with that approach is that a) he has to make then act ooc to create the break ups b) bro conflict is no fun to watch, especially when it isn’t credible or well written c) every time he ‘rebuilds’ it it feels a lot weaker than what we had before and d) no sooner has he repaired the damage than he smashes it again the next season.
What he has done to diminish the power of the church scene in Sacrifice (which for me too was one of the best in the whole series) is unforgivable IMO. It feels like he cheated us, and the boys, like the emotions he made us feel were wrong. I’m very angry with him for that.
I have completely lost trust in the writing team. I don’t think they understand the characters (particularly Sam) or their bond, and I don’t support their endgame ie where JC seems to think their relationship needs to go. He talks about maturity, but I think what he means by that is ‘less codependent’ which I don’t want to see. I disagree with him that their codependence is a bad thing / a weakness. I see it as a strength – one that has saved each other many times and saved the world.
I am also utterly sick to the back teeth of being forced around this pointless, depressing, repetitive, poorly written and damaging to the show hamster wheel of ‘secrets/guilt/reveal/anger/separation/physical reuniting/more anger/crisis/resolution/emotional reuniting and growth/season ends…..’ Then in the new season the whole sorry mess is repeated. Sorry but there is only so many times they can mess with the audience, characters and the central relationship like that before it loses all it’s power to shock or move us. In that final scene I didn’t feel like I was watching 2 people I had known and loved for 9 years talking to each other in a genuine, believable way. Instead I felt like I was watching a group of poor writers scrabbling around for forced drama by making their characters act totally ooc. When that happens, ie when as a viewer you are seeing the process rather than feeling engaged and convinced by the story, something is broken. I’m sad to say that that is how I am feeling at the moment. And as I say, even if they pull it back, I think that damage might be permanent because a) I’m feeling manipulated and taken for granted and b) the Sam not looking debacle already did irreparable damage to my faith in JC and his team.
I personally think it is pointless to even attempt to engage with the last scene of The Purge on a story or character level. There is no rationalising Sam’s cruel and unfeeling treatment of Dean. It is simply appallingly ooc. Sam would NEVER say those things to Dean. Yes he is angry, but these sentiments just don’t ring true. They aren’t credible or believable in any way.
I share your view that something broke for me this week (your ‘ping’) and I think it was my love for this show and any remaining shred of trust in JC and his team. I hear people saying ‘they need to break it down to build it up’ and ‘hang in there. They’ll sort it by the end of the season’ but I can’t be bothered to watch more of this rubbish and I don’t believe it can be put right. What was said can never be unsaid. Sam not looking can never be undone. I have to accept that these writers neither understand nor care about these characters, their bond, or the reason most fans are still here.
I am heartbroken to have lost something that has given me so much pleasure.
Moved over from Gerry’s “Breaking Bonds” review.
Geordiegirl1967:
I was disgusted and heartbroken by this ep.
I almost gave up after the stupid Sam not looking for Dean debacle, but the 2nd half of s8 pulled me back in. But again I feel myself drifting away from the show I love and this time I think (although it breaks my heart to say it) it may be permanent.
I fear JC has lost sight of the fact that the brothers relationship is the heart of this show, the element that sets it apart from every other show, the reason a huge chunk of the audience watch, and the reason SPN is still thriving after 9 years. I also fear that he can’t think of any other way to pad out the seasons mytharc other than demolishing then rebuilding the brothers relationship. Trouble with that approach is that a) he has to make then act ooc to create the break ups b) bro conflict is no fun to watch, especially when it isn’t credible or well written c) every time he ‘rebuilds’ it it feels a lot weaker than what we had before and d) no sooner has he repaired the damage than he smashes it again the next season.
What he has done to diminish the power of the church scene in Sacrifice (which for me too was one of the best in the whole series) is unforgivable IMO. It feels like he cheated us, and the boys, like the emotions he made us feel were wrong. I’m very angry with him for that.
I have completely lost trust in the writing team. I don’t think they understand the characters (particularly Sam) or their bond, and I don’t support their endgame ie where JC seems to think their relationship needs to go. He talks about maturity, but I think what he means by that is ‘less codependent’ which I don’t want to see. I disagree with him that their codependence is a bad thing / a weakness. I see it as a strength – one that has saved each other many times and saved the world.
I am also utterly sick to the back teeth of being forced around this pointless, depressing, repetitive, poorly written and damaging to the show hamster wheel of ‘secrets/guilt/reveal/anger/separation/physical reuniting/more anger/crisis/resolution/emotional reuniting and growth/season ends…..’ Then in the new season the whole sorry mess is repeated. Sorry but there is only so many times they can mess with the audience, characters and the central relationship like that before it loses all it’s power to shock or move us. In that final scene I didn’t feel like I was watching 2 people I had known and loved for 9 years talking to each other in a genuine, believable way. Instead I felt like I was watching a group of poor writers scrabbling around for forced drama by making their characters act totally ooc. When that happens, ie when as a viewer you are seeing the process rather than feeling engaged and convinced by the story, something is broken. I’m sad to say that that is how I am feeling at the moment. And as I say, even if they pull it back, I think that damage might be permanent because a) I’m feeling manipulated and taken for granted and b) the Sam not looking debacle already did irreparable damage to my faith in JC and his team.
I personally think it is pointless to even attempt to engage with the last scene of The Purge on a story or character level. There is no rationalising Sam’s cruel and unfeeling treatment of Dean. It is simply appallingly ooc. Sam would NEVER say those things to Dean. Yes he is angry, but these sentiments just don’t ring true. They aren’t credible or believable in any way.
I share your view that something broke for me this week (your ‘ping’) and I think it was my love for this show and any remaining shred of trust in JC and his team. I hear people saying ‘they need to break it down to build it up’ and ‘hang in there. They’ll sort it by the end of the season’ but I can’t be bothered to watch more of this rubbish and I don’t believe it can be put right. What was said can never be unsaid. Sam not looking can never be undone. I have to accept that these writers neither understand nor care about these characters, their bond, or the reason most fans are still here.
I am heartbroken to have lost something that has given me so much pleasure.