For our latest "Let's Discuss" topic, Nightsky has written up a great analysis on her take of season 8 so far and what she hopes to see in the remaining episodes.  It raises many wonderful talking points and gives us plenty to ponder in this small break from new episodes.  What exactly would you like to see for the rest of season 8?  Do you agree or disagree? 

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To say that we have been on a roller coaster of emotions with Season 8 would be an understatement! Looking back over the list of episodes, I have to confess that I believe the majority of them were well written, had a good emotional impact, and advanced at least one of the main storylines. In fact, I found many of them to be rather exciting. Some of the new ideas that have been introduced (e.g. MoL) are inspired and have given the series a fresh plot line that can be nurtured for many years to come. Yet my overall feeling about Season 8 is a sense of longing, a sense that none of this is being pulled together in a way that makes sense.

I feel that every week has been laying the cornerstones of a story, but instead of consistently building on that foundation, the next week throws something new at us – good by itself but not emotionally or intellectually satisfying. Each week, when I tune into a new episode, I hope that maybe this week the new writing team will hit their stride and build on everything that has come before. I keep waiting for bromance moments that finally see Sam and Dean being honest with each other and truly developing and deepening their relationship.  I want to see stories that make sense of the maelstrom of clues that have been thrown at us about tablets, secret societies, Cas, Benny, and Amelia.  I want explanations and actions from Sam and Dean that make sense given the 7.5 years of character development we have embraced in our hearts.  

So, I started to think about what exactly I want to see in the remaining episodes.  What is it I hope to see each week?  What would make this season reach its potential of inspired writing and brilliant myth arcs?  What is it exactly that is lacking for me? 

Earlier in the season, an idea was floating around to list all the clues that were being thrown at us in the first 10 episodes so we could begin to put together the pieces of this puzzle into a coherent picture. I personally never got around to formally keep track of the clues and their corresponding theories (and I really don’t have the luxury of 10-15 hours to rewatch all of the episodes now!). Some of the things I need to see are so central to the story, though, that I don’t need help remembering them! So here is my wish list of answers and plot resolutions, in roughly their order of importance to me: 

1.  Sam’s “lost” months - I want to hear that Sam DID look for Dean in those "lost" months, or the REAL reason that he did not look.  I am not satisfied that he didn't look because he just wanted to take time off. If he truly believed Dean was dead, tell us how that affected Sam and what he did in that time period….or Did Sam want to look for Dean but just did not have the ability, knowledge or strength to do so (couldn't keep going is different than didn't want to keep going, in my book).  Several theories have been posed - suicide attempt, mental incapacitation from his past several years of battling Satan, etc.  I am fairly open as to exactly what happened to Sam, (my personal, craziest theory is that Sam was in secret training from the angels! Unlikely, I know!) but I want a heart-felt confession/admission about this time from Sam TO DEAN, not to some random person and Dean never hears the truth.  Some of the clues this would address: 
  • Sam's lack of enthusiasm or surprise when he first saw Dean back from Purgatory. That reunion scene was just flat and made no sense given the emotional reunions we have witnessed in prior seasons.
  • Sam's keen interest in the name of the tablet Kevin found in “We Need to Talk About Kevin”.  That always struck me as odd, like he already knew there would be other tablets. 
  • Sam knowing the exorcism spell backwards, and knowing this would keep a demon from escaping. Was this just a foreshadowing of “smart Sam” (consistent with his mention of wanting to go back to college, and eventually becoming a MoL), or was he taught this trick?
  • All of the references to suicide in "Heartache".  I even keyed into the line where Sam said he “wanted to live” in “Trial and Error” (when faced with the trials), which made me think of someone who had previously lost their lease on life but found a renewed passion for life.
2.   Amelia - I would be thrilled if there was a lot more depth to the Amelia story line than just she and Sam fell in love because they needed each other. I know it looks like the writers were contrasting a "dream life" with Sam's harsh, real life, but I wouldn't cry if Amelia really WAS a dream (or a memory implanted in Sam's mind by angels? I know, I know - she's real. This story was so, um, blah, that I’m really looking for a way to spice it up or make sense out of it!). The clues that make me wonder about the veracity of Amelia’s story : 
  • All the dream-like qualities of the flashbacks.
  • Dean's reference to the name Don ("Don't trust a guy named Don") when Dean shouldn’t have known anything at all about Don. 
  • The fact that she was even named Amelia.  This name was too close to the name of Sam's friend, Amy. Even Castiel's vessel (Jimmy) wife's name was Amelia! Really?  The writers couldn’t think of a different name for a lead female character?
  • The person standing outside the Kermit, TX house (was that Dean?). 
  • All the dream sequence references in Hunteri Heroici.
3.  Bromance - I want our boys to keep talking to each other!! Honestly and sincerely! Enough talking to guest stars and not each other! Let us have a conversation of forgiveness and healing that addresses the old wounds that Dean expressed in “Southern Comfort”.  What about the hurt Sam felt in “Blood Brother?" The mature relationship that I want to see means they talk more, not less, but at least as much as they talked in seasons 1-5. 

4.  Benny - I would like Sam to acknowledge the significance of Benny’s friendship with Dean and realize that Benny has earned the right to be considered one of those reformed “monsters” that Sam has defended in past seasons.  Personally, I would like Benny to live, but I'm not sure that is in the cards. 

5.  Obvious plot lines to close:
  • Naomi – the boys need to figure out who Naomi is and help break the control she has over Castiel. 
  • Gates of Hell - that Sam succeeds and they close the gates of Hell.  I'm perfectly good with that!
  • The music - as long as I'm making a wish list, I wouldn't mind more classic rock! It's been getting a little rare lately!
If most or all of these frustrating, season-long, taunting mysteries are addressed, I will feel there was a brilliant plan for the season all along. The writers dropped tantalizing clues for us, knowing they would pull them all together in the end. If so, the remaining 6 or 7 episodes will be a breath-taking ride towards a season of distinction!  If they are not addressed, however, I will be forced to chalk this up to loose ends or inconsistency between the writers, and I'll have to be content with a few stand-alone episodes destined to be classics, and precious few isolated moments of greatness. 

So that is what I wish for. What do you need to see?  What clues have I forgotten??  Since I think we all know our frustrations with the season by now, may I suggest we keep the suggestions hopeful and positive? What is needed to make Season 8 great?

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As a reminder, "Let's Discuss" topics are free form zones, so long elaborate discussions are most encouraged.  All opinions are welcome.  However, please follow our basic rules, with the most important one being show respect for other posters.  No attacks or dismissing opinions as invalid. 

Okay, let's discuss!


Comments  

Leah
# Leah 2013-03-04 13:42
Nightsky- EXACTLY. You addressed perfectly everything I have had problems with since the beginning. I have nothing to add. If they answer even half of these things I will be happy. If they somehow tie everything together in a tidy little bow I would be in complete awe. We shall see. Thank you!! :-)
Valgal
# Valgal 2013-03-04 13:57
You couldn't have put it better. My first thoughts were Sam and the missing months, Amelia, Benny and of course, the bromance.

My additional concerns are for Castiel. What will make him aware of what Naomi is doing to him and how will that affect him and the guilt he has? What kind of "angel" is Naomi really?
How does Crowley know Enochian? What is up with him? If the gates can be closed, what happens to the demons on the earth? Are Crowley and Naomi acquainted?

We have been lead to believe Chuck is dead. What's the likelihood Kevin is going to survive the ordeal? How is Kevin going to finish translating the tablet when he only has half of it?

Creating the MOL and the "Batcave" was a big game changer. I have enjoyed how both Dean and Sam have been able to grow as characters with the addition of this new "character." While Sam and Dean have worked to communicate better, trust, fear and loyalty are issues that reoccur. I hope, as tptb took us into new territory creating the MOL and their lair, that they will present unique ways for Sam and Dean to handle the trials.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2013-03-04 13:57
I'd like to begin by listing the things I'm gald the writers stopped doing:
1. The brothers resentful squabbling. That's not how a reunion is supposed to be.
2. The Amelia flashbacks-bori ng, boring boring!
3. A little bit of Ms. Tran goes a long way.

Things I'd like to see:
1. Some resolution to the three trials or at least find out what the other two trials are.
2. More Crowley , Felicia Dey, And Osric Chou.
3. I'd like to see what's going on with the Alphas, so at least one episode starring the vampire Alpha and that shapeshifter Alpha is still out there.
4. Some resolution to Benny's story.
5. What is Naomi ,who is she working for, and what exactly is going on up in Heaven.
6. Just keep showing the brotherly love. Already this end of the season feels better than it did at the beginning.
7.Most importantly: DON'T show Amelia again unless it's to further the mythology of this show.
Madhurima
# Madhurima 2013-03-06 06:36
Think, we should open a 'Hate Amelia!' club?! That woman is damn boring, uninteresting, ..ughh....hate her! How and why on earth Sam should fall for a woman like that is beyond my understanding!
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-06 12:17
I don't Hate Amelia. I think she was very poorly written for the place they wanted her to take in Sam's story, but she's simply more blah than hateable to me. As long as she doesn't turn up pregnant by Sam, I'm okay.
st50
# st50 2013-03-06 12:20
Quote:
I don't Hate Amelia. I think she was very poorly written for the place they wanted her to take in Sam's story, but she's simply more blah than hateable to me. As long as she doesn't turn up pregnant by Sam, I'm okay.
Ditto. Please Chuck, no baby!
(and we don't need to bring Amelia back. Whatever the writers intended, it didn't work. imo, of course.)
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-06 12:34
Quote:
(and we don't need to bring Amelia back. Whatever the writers intended, it didn't work. imo, of course.)
I agree - but it was never GOING to work, (the fandom being what it is about love interests for the guys) and they never really tried to make it work.

And it isn't like they don't know it! And in detail! The really horrible things people say about these characters / actresses. Jensen said it at a con when someone asked were there going to be any more women on the show, something along the lines of "We tried that, and it just made all you (pointing at the crowd) mad. "Get those sluts away from our boys"."

And the girl who played Lisa wanted to know why she didn't have security at the convention she went to since the guys do and 'the girls who love the guys enough to throw themselves at them are the same ones threatening me on the internet' (she was joking somewhat but it some of the fans CAN be pretty nasty).

Anyway it was such a 'this is not going to work' idea that you can't help wondering if there is more to it ...
st50
# st50 2013-03-06 12:42
Quote:

Anyway it was such a 'this is not going to work' idea that you can't help wondering if there is more to it ...
Which brings us back to the idea of an unwanted pregnancy. That whole thought sends me running to the bathroom. :-x
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-06 13:02
LOL stoppit with the pregnancy everyone! Are women just baby-making machines? Is that our sole purpose for existence? Is that really the best twist for Amelia's existence there is?

I miss the badass women fighters of the first few seasons!
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-06 13:15
I miss the badass women as well. No women should not be just baby making machines, but Supernatural has moved very far away from the kickass women of seasons one and two. The character of Amelia and her relationship with Sam was not fleshed out well at all. We got 2 entire episodes devoted to Benny the Good and virtually nothing on Amelia. This was all written before there could be any fan reaction to Amelia, so it looks like the writers dropped her like a hot potato. That leaves us with Why Amelia and Why the last one night stand, which sadly leads to the possibility of a baby. And believe me when I say I CRINGE at the thought, but the writers have repeated that Amelia was important to the storyline, and they sure didn't make her crucial when she was on so, I'm worried.
Ale
# Ale 2013-03-04 14:15
Quote:
I feel that every week has been laying the cornerstones of a story, but instead of consistently building on that foundation, the next week throws something new at us – good by itself but not emotionally or intellectually satisfying.
I have this feeling too. The thing is, I believe JC is building several foundations to S09 and S10 (not only S08), and we don't know which one will be resolved in S08. I bet none will be completely finished, simply because there are too many going on at the same time therefore none will be well resolved in time, and even if they choose one, we will be asking what about the others.

The ONLY thing I want from JC is to fix the brothers' relationship. If S09 and S10 are the last ones for us, I want A LOT of bromance in them. Like mature S01-S03 S&D bromance.
nightsky
# nightsky 2013-03-05 15:53
Quote:

The thing is, I believe JC is building several foundations to S09 and S10 (not only S08), and we don't know which one will be resolved in S08. I bet none will be completely finished, simply because there are too many going on at the same time therefore none will be well resolved in time, and even if they choose one, we will be asking what about the others..
Ale, you raise a very valid point, which I hadn't really considered. I have always been in awe of how seasons 1-5 slowly built up to the revelations and climax that literally took 5 years to unfold. I expected the tablet arc was multi-seasonal simply because there is more than one tablet. It is possible, though, that some of the clues we are perceiving are to events that will not be completely understood until later seasons. I guess I had been lured into the mode of seasons 6 and 7, which were more stand-alone seasons. If the writers are following the earlier model, though, many things may be just beginning! That is a completely different expectation for the timeframe of the answers!
Ale
# Ale 2013-03-05 16:16
Oh, I agree, a well rounded 3 seasons plan would be amazing! Much better than a season that starts without the knowledge if it will be the last one or not. Although I loved S06 and didn't disliked S07, how much of these seasons plan had to be changed or rushed?
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-05 16:35
If Carver is building foundations for a longer arc, great. But until he fixes the characterizatio n of Sam, I will not be happy and I will not wait until season 10 to have a 10 second mention that Sam did look for Dean 3 years ago. That is unacceptable to me.
Madhurima
# Madhurima 2013-03-06 06:48
I think JC has bit off more than he can chew! Period. Nothing could ever possibly match Kripke's original five-year plan; plus we have already waited two seasons watching stupid Leviathans which were not scary at all! Now, there are the Word of God, CEO-looking Angel-boss, Sam's awkward behavior, a tad boring woman called Amelia, a visit from Grandpa Henry, a bat-cave, and nothing to tie them all up -yet! Please, I am beginning to get hopeless! :( :(
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2013-03-06 07:05
That may very well be true Madhurima, but the thing I've kept in mind is that even before this season started Carver was talking about a three season arc, so it could very well be that all of this stuff is setup to keep the show going until season 10.
Alyssa
# Alyssa 2013-04-02 05:13
Quote:

The ONLY thing I want from JC is to fix the brothers' relationship. If S09 and S10 are the last ones for us, I want A LOT of bromance in them. Like mature S01-S03 S&D bromance.
I completely agree. Even s4 had some really good moments (Dean breaking down to Sam about hell)

I'm glad so many other people feel as strongly as I do about how bland their relationship is now.
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2013-03-04 14:42
Very, very, good honest article addressing all the bad or confused moments of the season.
I'll take them as they come.
X
A ) Sam's lost months.
There's no way that Sam would not have been curious to know what happened to his beloved brother.
If there is an ulterior motive ie, interference from angels/ Crowley/ anybody, I would be fine with that but imagining Sam just walking out of the laboratory, getting into the Impala and driving off to who knows where, without looking for Dean is just too unbelievable and has to be explained.
X
B) Amelia.
What strikes me most about the Amelia love affair is the absolute impression one gets of there being no love between her and Sam at all.
I don't know if that was how the actors were told to play it or if the two had no natural on-screen chemistry but I can't believe Sam/Amelia could have convinced anyone that the two participants shared any kind of sentiment except perhaps sex.
The only reason I can think of to have had Samelia is for some child to pop up in in the future, otherwise I don't get it.
Then as you point out, just who was the man standing outside the house. If it was Don why not just say so?
Then Sam's complete 'unsurprise' at seeing Dean at Rufus' cabin and if you noticed, he gave a sort of annoyed huff as if Dean's return wasn't particularly appreciated. The real Sam would never act like that!
X
C) Bromance.
Sam and Dean's brotherly bond is the heart of the show. It's what made me fall in love with the Winchesters from the word go. I think the writers have to remember that. It's not the guest stars one watches for, but Sam and Dean.
If they are out of synch then the show loses what made innumerable fans fall in love with it; the crazy, tangled-up, co-dependent, unique, 'I'll sell my soul for you' relationship the boys have.
If one takes away the heart of the show then the blood stops pumping and it dies!

In the first 10 episodes the writers seemed to do their best to demolish that relationship without ever giving us valid reasons for it, and without any true clarification or explanation between the brothers.
Then from episode 11 onwards all that tension got unexplainably pushed into the background as if it had never happened.
X
D ) Benny
Here I don't quite agree with you about Benny.
If you recall, in Purgatory he was teamed up with another soul who had been his side-kick up to that moment, which he then trecherously exterminated when he encountered Dean. That wasn't a very nice thing to do.
X
Then just how did he know the way out of Purgatory or that he could piggy-back in a human body? Was he just more intelligent than the other inhabitants of Purgatory or did someone give him the info?

Bennny was obviously loyal to Dean in Purgatory because, Dean was his ticket out so clearly he was going to protect him and kill to keep him alive.
However Dean has only met him a couple of times since they got back to Earth; who is to say that Benny wouldn't have turned on Dean eventually?
When Sam was suspicious of Benny, he was only following hunter logic.
X
IMO what Dean said to Sam about Benny being a better brother than him was completely uncalled for as Sam had saved Dean's life many a time throughout the years they were together.
He saved Dean in Heartache, not Benny.
So really I don't know if Benny can truly be considered this selfless friend that Dean imagines him to be
X.
E) Naomi.
I'm not really interested in the angel story-line. I much prefer Crowley and his demons but now that they have introduced Naomi, they will have to give some closure on that.
I would be truly happy if she had manipulated Sam from the word go, influencing his actions in some way and preventing him from looking for Dean.
I would be also be good if it was she who told Benny how to get out of Purgatory.
Synthetically, if she was the catalyst of all the brothers' tense relationship in the first ten episodes that would be fine with me.
X
F) Gates of Hell.
I think closing them is a very bad idea. Good and evil balance themselves out and if God had wanted Hell closed, he'd probably have done it himself.
With no demons roaming the Earth, the angels will have a free hand, and are the angels really any better than demons?
X
I hope your optimism for a coming together of all this at the end of the season is fulfilled but I'm afraid my trust in these writers is close to zero.
I think that each one has penned their own personal episode with very little or no continuity between them but only time will tell who's right. :)
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-04 17:00
i agree with most all of this. i haven't lost my optimism and with the mytharc being the meat and potatoes of the last part of this season, i see know reason why our questions cannot be answered.
;-)
st50
# st50 2013-03-05 09:00
Quote:


The only reason I can think of to have had Samelia is for some child to pop up in in the future, otherwise I don't get it.
Please no. :-x

Quote:


Sam and Dean's brotherly bond is the heart of the show. It's what made me fall in love with the Winchesters from the word go. I think the writers have to remember that. It's not the guest stars one watches for, but Sam and Dean.
If they are out of synch then the show loses what made innumerable fans fall in love with it; the crazy, tangled-up, co-dependent, unique, 'I'll sell my soul for you' relationship the boys have.
If one takes away the heart of the show then the blood stops pumping and it dies!

In the first 10 episodes the writers seemed to do their best to demolish that relationship without ever giving us valid reasons for it, and without any true clarification or explanation between the brothers.
Then from episode 11 onwards all that tension got unexplainably pushed into the background as if it had never happened.


Exactly! No co-dependent, loving brothers = no show.
If you build up a conflict, then RESOLVE IT!
Quote:


I think closing them is a very bad idea. Good and evil balance themselves out and if God had wanted Hell closed, he'd probably have done it himself.
With no demons roaming the Earth, the angels will have a free hand, and are the angels really any better than demons
I agree!
nightsky
# nightsky 2013-03-05 16:31
Quote:
There's no way that Sam would not have been curious to know what happened to his beloved brother. If there is an ulterior motive ie, interference from angels/ Crowley/ anybody, I would be fine with that but imagining Sam just walking out of the laboratory, getting into the Impala and driving off to who knows where, without looking for Dean is just too unbelievable and has to be explained.
I agree. Bardicvoice wrote a Supernatural University article on this exact question. Her arguments are compelling as to why Sam may not have looked for Dean. While this is not my personal instinct on what happened, I can understand it IF the brothers would talk about this in a lot more detail. I really didn't buy into the possibility at all until I read her article (Oct, 2012), but I don't think I should have to read a fan's analysis to understand motivations. Let's have the writers backtrack and give us an explanation one way or the other. I honestly believe (or is it simply hope?) that this huge question has been left open because it really is part of a much bigger plot line , e.g. angels or Crowley messing with Sam as you mention. I will accept it at face value, however, if they would give it the dramatic emotions and conversations that it deserves. Looking at comments throughout this thread, it does seem to be the #1 issue for fans this season.

Quote:
Sam and Dean's brotherly bond is the heart of the show. It's what made me fall in love with the Winchesters from the word go. ...If they are out of synch then the show loses what made innumerable fans fall in love with it; the crazy, tangled-up, co-dependent, unique, 'I'll sell my soul for you' relationship the boys have....
In the first 10 episodes the writers seemed to do their best to demolish that relationship without ever giving us valid reasons for it, and without any true clarification or explanation between the brothers.
Then from episode 11 onwards all that tension got unexplainably pushed into the background as if it had never happened.
I so agree! Having Dean say "I'm tired of fighting" was not enough of a reconciliation or explanation for me. Don't get me wrong - I am thrilled that the brothers are getting along. It makes me so much happier! I get all warm and fuzzy inside. But what the *bleep* happened??? Again, have Sam and Dean talk about it in some way, and I'm completely on-board.


Then just how did he [Benny] know the way out of Purgatory or that he could piggy-back in a human body? Was he just more intelligent than the other inhabitants of Purgatory or did someone give him the info?

This is one of the clues I forgot! We have to add this to the list! Someone suggested that the Alpha Vamp was able to communicate with Benny, so he was the mysterious "they" Benny references . Another good theory, though, is Naomi (as you repeat below). For me, this is a rather exciting plot line to unfold.
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2013-03-06 03:43
Nightsky
X
[ Bardicvoice wrote a Supernatural University article on this exact question. Her arguments are compelling as to why Sam may not have looked for Dean.]
X
While I agree that each one of us has their own interpretation of events, we must consider that most of the viewers who watch the show aren't as expert on the ins and outs of the mythology as more expert fans, and they watch the episode taking what happens at face value.
If Sam doesn't look for Dean then that is what they assimilate. If the brothers argue, that is what they see.
I find it difficult to imagine that the casual viewer would be able to, or want to go into deeper or more hidden motives.
X
X
I am very happy that the brothers are getting along but not at the expense of having no explanation for the heart-breaking things they hurled at each other in earlier episodes.
I and I'm sure many others, really need an explanation on all that tension.
X
The Benny and Amelia plot lines.
I can see where the writers were aiming. They wanted to give the two brothers separate story-lines as a nod out to the 'more mature' relationship idea, but the actual execution fell flat and in my opinion the writers did a turn-around mid-season making the brothers more loving again without giving us an explanation, simply because they don't have one.
IMO, it was an experiment gone wrong. I hope I'm mistaken, but that's the way it feels.
Grace232
# Grace232 2013-03-04 14:44
Thanks so much for this.

Let me start by saying I am loving this season (even with the not-so-great Man's Best Friend With Benefits, since every season has had one or two misses for me). Let me next say that I agree with everything you said. If they never resolve the Sam thing, I can deal with it, but boy, it would be so much better if they did as you suggest here.

I am pretty happy with the relationship between the brothers now, and the stories we are getting. It would be nice, though, if they could somehow explain Sam's story for the first 9 or so episodes - especially if they could do it without messing up what is working so well now. However, I would not want to sacrifice all that is working now to try to deal with the Amelia disaster, so I am feeling a little bit of "be careful what you wish for" too.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-03-04 14:52
Good summary. I'd like to see more Meg too, and some tie in with the Alpha Vampire from last season. I could take or leave Benny at this point.

In regards to Sam, like it or not, I just can't see TPTB doing much to fill in the blanks there. Sam really turned inwards after he came back from hell. He made a passing comment in the episode where Mrs. Tran sold her soul for Kevin and the tablet; she asked what it felt like without a soul and inquired as to whether she would be dead. Sam said no, but you'll just wish you were.

Since the Sam Interrupted episode in S5, when Dean told him to bury it when he was trying to come to grips with his rage/anger, he's pretty much had to deal with this stuff on his own. His anger/rage issues, reconciling what he did while soulless (after Dean told him to bury it and let it come out in fits of violence and alcoholism) and what happened while he was in hell (outside of his hallucinations and the magic Cas fix, really no mention of it). Given that, I just don't see them trying to fill in the blanks of what really happened to Sam at the end of S7. Personally, I'm okay with this.

There have been a lot of people mentioning that Sam has no close friends outside of Dean; Dean's a great brother to Sam but this is the one area where I don't think he could help him; Sam has had to sort this crap out on his own. And since he never mentioned his life as a hunter to Amelia, he couldn't really confide in her either.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2013-03-04 15:31
Isleofskye: You brought up some great points and questions about Amelia, Benny and Naomi.

Where did Benny get the information for the spell that allowed him out of Puragatory. (Was that spell something he asked for in exchange for helping Dean get out?)

Is Naomi manipulating more people than just Cas?

What would be the ful repurcussions of closing Hell. Where would evil human souls go (like witches, for example) and how would doing that affect Heaven?

We've met The Men of Letters, The Thule Society and their Hebraic rivals. Are there any more secret groups out there? I'm sure there's a boat-load of stuff we and the Winchesters just don't know about how the world is actually arranged.
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2013-03-04 16:44
"lkeke35"

[Where did Benny get the information for the spell that allowed him out of Puragatory. (Was that spell something he asked for in exchange for helping Dean get out?)]
X
Good question. Was he the only one who knew and why?
X
[Is Naomi manipulating more people than just Cas?]
X
It would be logical to assume that she was as she seems to have great powers.
X
[What would be the ful repurcussions of closing Hell. Where would evil human souls go (like witches, for example) and how would doing that affect Heaven?]
X
I don't know if closing Hell means just that demons can't get out. I would think that 'bad' souls can still go into Hell but not sure on that.
X
[We've met The Men of Letters, The Thule Society and their Hebraic rivals. Are there any more secret groups out there? I'm sure there's a boat-load of stuff we and the Winchesters just don't know about how the world is actually arranged.]
X
Yeah, I'm sure there's plenty more stuff out there to discover, that's why the writers shouldn't waste episodes on making the brothers argue with each other, but get them out there to explore the supernatural. :)
dashnjo
# dashnjo 2013-03-05 01:46
I've been wondering how Benny knew about the portal ... didn't think about the spell so much because I just figured Cas knew how but Benny was pretty sure he could get out with Dean before they even found Cas so that's a good point. I wonder if the angels (if it's angels) told him how to get out because they needed Dean out to find the demon tablet. Also, he was trying to get Dean to leave Cas behind and maybe he just saved him because he was told the angel needed to live but not go with them so they could take Cas and manipulate him.

There's also the "person" who was watching Sam drive off from Amelia's in the first episode that hasn't been explained. What if the angels brought her husband back (it wouldn't be the first time they brought someone back to life) just to get Sam to leave her and start looking for Dean (who he found because he'd gotten out of Purgatory already).

There's just a few little clues out there that make me wonder also and I hope they don't become hanging chads.
nightsky
# nightsky 2013-03-05 16:45
Quote:
What if the angels brought her husband back (it wouldn't be the first time they brought someone back to life) just to get Sam to leave her and start looking for Dean (who he found because he'd gotten out of Purgatory already).
There's just a few little clues out there that make me wonder also and I hope they don't become hanging chads.
You mention something else I had forgotten - the convenient coincidence that Amelia's husband turns up alive after being MIA and presumed dead! Another clue that might be just dramatic writing, but might also be a warning of so much more!
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-05 16:52
So far throughout the show we have had at least 3 'Amelias' and two 'Dons' (apart from the one you shouldn't take a joint from - he makes 3 as well) So either the writers have significant others with these names or there could be something in that.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-05 17:00
Considering Amelia #1 was Jimmy's wife in The Rapture, which was written by Jeremy Carver, he may have a thing for the name Amelia. Or it could mean something. Amy was never called Amelia the connection came through Amy Pond on Doctor Who. Her full name was Amelia, but I'm not sure about Supernatural Amy.
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-05 17:11
Oh cool, I missed one - 4 Amelias then. I am assuming that she is supposed to be Amelia Pond - I think Sam called the name 'cute' (though Dr Who's Amelia Pond didn't exist when she would have come up with the name) The other Amelia I am thinking of is the what the guy that Trickster was pretending to be in Mystery Spot said his wife's name was.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-05 18:25
Well, I totally forgot about the Trickster Amelia and that is another Jeremy Carver episode. He may just have a thing about the name Amelia. One of my favorite authors always has a character named Robert in his books. Sometimes major characters, sometimes minor, but always a Robert. Amelia could be JC's Robert.
love2boys
# love2boys 2013-03-04 17:13
Loved the review. Like you, I have a feeling longing. Sometimes melancholy. Last epi - melancholy. :cry: Got online but no one else was melancholy. :cry: Number 1 in my book as well: Sam's lost months. I want everything you want. The longer we go without answers to Sam's lost months and why he wasn't surprised or happy to see Dean the bigger those issues loom for me. I can hardly stand it - I'm obsessing!

Do writers/produce rs of the show ever really read what we want/need? I know they did in the first several seasons. But now? Do they care? The continuity, relationship and J2 acting like guest stars in their own show would suggest that they don't. I would LOVE to know that someone at show read your wonderful essay above.
nightsky
# nightsky 2013-03-05 16:51
Quote:

Do writers/producers of the show ever really read what we want/need? I know they did in the first several seasons. But now? Do they care? The continuity, relationship and J2 acting like guest stars in their own show would suggest that they don't. I would LOVE to know that someone at show read your wonderful essay above.
I actually have wondered this exact same thing. I have read that Eric Kripke was very tuned into some specific fan sites, so he knew what fans were saying about his show. I haven't read anything one way or the other about Jeremy Carver, though. Maybe reviewers closer to the show (e.g. Alice) know the answer.
Thank you for the compliment about them reading my essay. I would be very, very happy to find a way to communicate to the writers respectfully, honestly and without bias about how fans are reacting to their shows.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-04 17:14
I'll start with your list, which I mostly agree with
1. Sam’s “lost” months - To me this is the most critical issue to be dealt with. I want to know WHY Sam didn't look for Dean. If he thought he was dead, why? If he didn't look what made him not do it.? Why did he feel no need to protect Kevin? Not looking for Dean and leaving Kevin do not seem in character for the person Sam has become. I need more than Sam just didn't look as an explanation. I can come up with reasons why Sam wouldn't, but I shouldn't have to fill in the blanks on an issue that is so contrary to the Sam we have known. I'm willing to accept any reasonable explanation. I can accept Sam not trying to bring Dean back if he thought Dean was dead if they show us why he thought that. I have no trouble believing Sam could have had a breakdown and not been emotionally capable of looking. I could accept that Sam found out Dean was in Purgatory and decided that he couldn't risk the world to save Dean. I can believe that Naomi or other angels are manipulating Sam's memories. I can't accept that Sam just walked out of that lab and didn't at least try to ascertain what happened to Dean. Not saving Dean, I understand. Not looking for him, I don't.

2. Amelia - If I thought they would handle the Amelia question well, I would love to find out what exactly happened there. All the points you mention bother me. I'm also bothered by the fact that Sam hitting the dog was the initiating act for Sam's new life, but then he abandons the dog as well. Why? Amelia forced the dog on him. Sam loves dogs. Sam supposedly didn't know Dean was back, so why not take the dog as a companion since Dean wasn't around to object?

3. Bromance -I really want the boys to deal with their issues, talk them out, be honest with one another, listen to one another and find a decent relationship where both of them can be happy.

4. Benny - This is where we disagree. I do want Dean to explain how he and Benny connected in Purgatory. I don't want Sam to simply accede to Dean's view of Benny. Sam deserves to be able to form his own opinions on and follow his own instincts about supernatural creatures. Simply bowing to Dean's judgement makes Sam less than Dean. I'm not saying Sam has to be right about Benny, although that is what I really want, I'm just saying that he should be permitted to be skeptical of Benny even after he knows the facts. He doesn't have want to kill him, just retain the idea that Dean could be wrong this once.

5. Obvious plot lines to close:

Naomi – the boys need to figure out who Naomi is and help break the control she has over Castiel. Absolutely. We need to know what the heck is going on in Naomiville. She claims its a part of heaven, but all we have is her word. Who is she and what is she trying to accomplish? Why bring her in and not use her? Why bring Amanda Tapping (a high profile genre actress) to play a part that is moving like molasses going uphill in January?

Gates of Hell -I'm less sure that closing the Gates of Hell is a good idea. I do thing there needs to be a balance of Heaven and Hell. I can't exactly say good and evil, because the angels are just as destructive as the demons. That is partly why I think Hell may need to remain accessible so the angels don't overrun the earth.

Dean - There has been so much talk about Sam not cutting Benny any slack that some of Dean's actions have gotten obscured. Why does Dean suddenly care so little about human lives, especially those he has ties to. Both Sam and Dean have become hardened about killing hosts in order to kill demons, but Dean has become especially harsh about the subject. He was willing to kill Kevin's mother, pretty much in front of Kevin. They needed Kevin and they knew and liked his mother. Sam look shocked that Dean would even consider killing her. Dean didn't even hesitate and showed no remorse over the attempt on her life. The Same goes for James. James was someone who had saved the boys' lives at one point, but Dean was awfully quick to just say kill him and move on. And then there is Martin. It may be true that Benny had no choice but to kill Martin, although since we never saw the actual kill, I can't be certain. I do know that Dean believes that Benny had no choice. But Martin was a friend. When other hunters were trying to turn Sam into a demon killing machine, or trying and succeeding in killing Sam and Dean, Martin believed in them and trusted them on a job. Dean trusted Martin's sanity enough in Sam, Interrupted to take the job on Martin's word. Now Dean is taking Benny's word over Martins, which I can understand. What I can't understand is why Dean expresses not sadness, or feelings of loss or any sense that he was upset that Martin died. As I said, I understand Dean's dismissal of people he didn't know, but this disconnect from people who he had active alliances with in the past does not seem like Dean to me.

Mostly, I need something to make the first half of the season come together and explain the boys actions in a way that is consistent with their prior personalities, experiences and behaviors.
nightsky
# nightsky 2013-03-05 17:02
Quote:

Why bring Amanda Tapping (a high profile genre actress) to play a part that is moving like molasses going uphill in January?
LOL! I absolutely agree! They must have bigger plans for her! I could easily believe she is part of a multi-seasonal plot (just as Crowley, with all of his genre credentials, was).


Quote:
Mostly, I need something to make the first half of the season come together and explain the boys actions in a way that is consistent with their prior personalities, experiences and behaviors.
I really think that is what many of us need for Season 8 to be great!

Looking back over the list of episodes in Season 8, I have to confess that I really liked a lot of them, in fact the majority of them, from a story and drama standpoint. I was just so frustrated by the handling of The Relationship. I think it all boils down to that. Give us something that MAKES SENSE of all the things that interfered with them, have them talk through things to actually resolve pain, get them back in a close, supportive bond, and for me, Jeremy Carver delivered.
Wow. That's a lot to ask.
debbab
# debbab 2013-03-04 18:00
So well spoken. Not sure we will get closure on Sam's year. It didn't work and the writer's dropped it like a hot potato unless there is a tie in to Sam's mental status I do no think it will be addressed. I so need classic rock more often and more banter btwn the brothers is always either clever or meaningful. Heck, even the comments about the Stooges told us more about their POVs. I would like to see both brothers get a bit of action with females so we know that Sam is still functional after Amelia and has put her in the past, and has not gone celibate like a monk with his studies, and Dean, well he hasn't flirted with anyone but Charlie for the most part and that isn't going to work ever. At least it might show Dean taking an interest in the living world and not just death. I think Dean's character has been consistent, but Sammy-writers could use a bit of expansion on his POV about family and normalcy and whether he had a break down. I would like to see more of Cas/Crowley and I think the next episode will fulfill that one.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-04 18:45
Nightsky, it's like you were reading my mind! I feel like it's my birthday. First nappi815 gives us a wonderful theory to bring hope and now this. It's has restored my faith (however briefly) that something is up and that this whole season is going to come together.

Most of the rest of this is just agreeing with you in detail.

For the season as a whole to work for me, I HAVE to know what went on with Sam right after Dean disappeared. That is non-negotiable as far as I'm concerned. My first preference would be a super kickass conspiracy that links the whole season and all Sam's behavior together. But I'd settle for knowing what really went on and how he was effected.


Amelia- I honestly don't know how they are going to save this part of the storyline, but I will live in awe if they do. There IS a lot of weird stuff associated with her too. Like one more connection on the name (and I know others had mentioned this before in other threads) is that Amy Pond is a Dr Who character whose full name is Amelia. And she has a husband who returns from the dead and Sam has a brother who does the same.

I would LOVE some resolution from all the problems that were brought up in SC- have them TRULY talk about it. Why Dean is having trouble letting the stuff go and have Sam say how that effects him. And just some more improvement on their relationship in general. I've loved where they have gone since the mid season premiere, but I would like a true feeling of resolution for their biggest problems.

I would like Benny to live, but I agree it doesn't look good. I think actually closing the gates of Hell would be a great plot twist, especially if the result is not all sunshine and roses that we expect it to be. I agree I think they're setting stuff up for at least next season and probably beyond and I'm good with that as long as it feel more like S4 than S7. Where we were on the precipice of chaos and it left me full of anticipation and need to know instead feeling a little let down.
nightsky
# nightsky 2013-03-05 17:10
Quote:
For the season as a whole to work for me, I HAVE to know what went on with Sam right after Dean disappeared. That is non-negotiable as far as I'm concerned. My first preference would be a super kickass conspiracy that links the whole season and all Sam's behavior together. But I'd settle for knowing what really went on and how he was effected.

Amelia- I honestly don't know how they are going to save this part of the storyline, but I will live in awe if they do.
I just had to tell you that I'm still laughing after reading these comments. You really nailed it!
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-05 19:14
Kelly, I have a sneaking suspicion that the closing of the gates is going to be one big ( I am trying to put this tactfully) cluster of a mess that will take one or two more seasons to clean up.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-05 19:31
I feel you're probably right. I'm good with that. As long as the fix the Sam storyline before that.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-04 19:10
I just reread the post and want to express again how much I love it. It has actually done the impossible and made me want to go back and watch the Amelia portions for more clues. :D
sucharita
# sucharita 2013-03-04 22:58
I would really love if they address the Sam lost month issue and add more bromance s1-3 feelings. You have pretty much stated everything I want except for the Benny thing.

Benny was loyal to Dean in purgatory cause for his own reason. He will never be a better brother than Sam. That comment still break my heart.
nightsky
# nightsky 2013-03-05 17:16
Quote:

Benny was loyal to Dean in purgatory cause for his own reason. He will never be a better brother than Sam. That comment still break my heart.
I agree. That is one of the bromance issues that has not yet been discussed or resolved. Benny was a great friend, and actually I would like him to continue his frienship with Dean, but friendship and love are entirely different levels of commitment.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2013-03-05 02:12
I haven't read all the comments yet, but I'd just like to say I'm actually reasonably happy with where we are now. I know they've thrown a lot of info at us and not all of it is resolved, but they don't always do that by the end of a season. That's why we get those famous SPN cliffhangers. Now that we have a season 9, I have a feeling some stuff is going to bleed over into the new season anyway. I don't mind waiting, to be honest. Hell, it took them 3 seasons to even mention Croatoan again.

So other than the obvious Cas, Crowley, Naomi stories, what I'd really like to see is an honest, heartfelt, open-minded conversation between Sam and Dean about their year apart. Not just from Sam, either. I want Dean to explain what happened in Purgatory and why he trusts Benny rather than assuming Sam will trust him just because he does. I want to Sam to tell Dean what was going on in his head between Sucrocorp and hitting Riot, why he chose Amelia and stayed with her and why he didn't or stopped looking for Dean.
I'm pretty sure I could watch and entire episode of them just talking and I'd be riveted.

Also, I'd like Sam to outright tell Dean that he's hurting and scared. We've already seen that Dean isn't pissed about it, so I'd like to see Sam trusting Dean enough to tell him this without thinking Dean's going to run off and start the trials himself (Oh, and of course, for Dean to not go off and start the trials himself, regardless of what Sam says)

Other than that, I'm pretty happy to wait and see where Carver and Co. take us.
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2013-03-05 04:06
Hi Alice!

I didn't read the comments now, and also not your article as a whole but the Sam parts!! I will do it later though!

According to Kevin & Jill Parks? @SNkevinandjill at twitter "The flashbacks pick up soon after Dean disappeared. So not much time elapsed between the end of S7 and the flashbacks." this was their answer to my question "Will we ever get to see what happpened with Sam after Dean vanished? Why did Sam not search for Dean? It ruins S8 for me!" and "Yes, I mean the end of S7, and what followed for Sam before he hit the dog and met the girl! What means "imploded" for Sam?"

It stays that way that S8 is runined for me as a whole. I am good with the last handful of episodes regarding the brothers and I still don't understand the "false" constructed brother conflict (why was it needed), which happened to be played out at the coasts of Sam POV and it made Sam look like an uncaring brother whereat we know he isn't.

So they say that the FB's started soon after Dean vanished. No missing months inbetween, it is even more flat for me how Sam's side is told. Jared was stunning as always (for me)he showed with his looks his loss and sadness but the missing dialogues, the missing scenes of Sam right in the beginning are ruining S8 as a whole for me.
E
# E 2013-03-05 09:02
Hi Shadowhund;
So wait.... you asked Kevin Parks via twitter about what happened to Sam after the end of season 7 and for info on why Sam didn't search for Dean and he answered back with info about DEAN and PURGATORY? That makes no sense as an answer. That seems really strange.. maybe he's deliberately avoiding your questions? If there is some huge reveal coming up I am sure all the PTB have been guarding it with the utmost secrecy. That might account for such a strange and evasive answer to such a straightforward question. I am with you though, if there is no further info coming down the pike about Sam and his missing months then season 8 will be a bust for me too.
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2013-03-05 10:20
So you do see it positive? :) I would be so with you then, when this is the reason behind the avoidance, but I didn't feel it as avoidence. Now that you mentioned I could see...maybe the light at the end of the tunnel? Ha ha!

I am asking and asking myself again and again, would JC really do that to Sam without a big reveal later, hm, I just don't know and only hope for now. I have to say it really depends how this all plays out specially regarding Sam!

Sam is the half of team Winchester after all! JC wrote Mystery Spot, MYSTERY SPOT starring Sam Winchester loosing his brother over and over again, and we saw his reaction. Did JC forget? And because I am already at MS I would mention AVSC too with the (S)amulet, one of my favorite brother centric episodes!

I only thought that Dean vanishing in the lab is more the strong story and that's the reason why it was mentioned -like the stronger indication.
E
# E 2013-03-05 18:43
I'm not sure.... It COULD be a positive sign? I guess we'll have to wait and see. It just seemed like a strange answer. I am a bit of a Pollyanna, so I will continue to thing positively until I have had all my positive stripped away!!! :D
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-05 21:31
Quote:
Hi Alice!

I didn't read the comments now, and also not your article as a whole but the Sam parts!! I will do it later though!

According to Kevin & Jill Parks? @SNkevinandjill at twitter "The flashbacks pick up soon after Dean disappeared. So not much time elapsed between the end of S7 and the flashbacks." this was their answer to my question "Will we ever get to see what happpened with Sam after Dean vanished? Why did Sam not search for Dean? It ruins S8 for me!" and "Yes, I mean the end of S7, and what followed for Sam before he hit the dog and met the girl! What means "imploded" for Sam?"

It stays that way that S8 is runined for me as a whole. I am good with the last handful of episodes regarding the brothers and I still don't understand the "false" constructed brother conflict (why was it needed), which happened to be played out at the coasts of Sam POV and it made Sam look like an uncaring brother whereat we know he isn't.

So they say that the FB's started soon after Dean vanished. No missing months inbetween, it is even more flat for me how Sam's side is told. Jared was stunning as always (for me)he showed with his looks his loss and sadness but the missing dialogues, the missing scenes of Sam right in the beginning are ruining S8 as a whole for me.
it seems to me shadow that kevin parks didn't really answer your question at all. he danced around it though. i believe it was stated in an episode by sam that a couple of months had passed before he met amelia. a lot can happen in two months. in all honesty, why mention the time lapse at all if it wasn't significant?

your question was pretty straight forward. but you asked this question before the season ended. if there wasn't anything to hide, then why didn't he flat out tell you what you wanted to know. he instead gave you the runaround and never really answered your question....

kinda makes you go hmmm ;-)
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-05 21:32
Quote:
Hi Alice!

I didn't read the comments now, and also not your article as a whole but the Sam parts!! I will do it later though!

According to Kevin & Jill Parks? @SNkevinandjill at twitter "The flashbacks pick up soon after Dean disappeared. So not much time elapsed between the end of S7 and the flashbacks." this was their answer to my question "Will we ever get to see what happpened with Sam after Dean vanished? Why did Sam not search for Dean? It ruins S8 for me!" and "Yes, I mean the end of S7, and what followed for Sam before he hit the dog and met the girl! What means "imploded" for Sam?"

It stays that way that S8 is runined for me as a whole. I am good with the last handful of episodes regarding the brothers and I still don't understand the "false" constructed brother conflict (why was it needed), which happened to be played out at the coasts of Sam POV and it made Sam look like an uncaring brother whereat we know he isn't.

So they say that the FB's started soon after Dean vanished. No missing months inbetween, it is even more flat for me how Sam's side is told. Jared was stunning as always (for me)he showed with his looks his loss and sadness but the missing dialogues, the missing scenes of Sam right in the beginning are ruining S8 as a whole for me.
it seems to me shadow that kevin parks didn't really answer your question at all. he danced around it though. i believe it was stated in an episode by sam that a couple of months had passed before he met amelia.i believe that's how we all know this. if you ask me, a lot can happen in two months. in all honesty, why mention the time lapse at all if it wasn't significant?

your question was pretty straight forward. but you asked this question before the season ended. if there wasn't anything to hide, then why didn't he flat out tell you what you wanted to know. he instead gave you the runaround and never really answered your question....

kinda makes you go hmmm ;-)
Ginger
# Ginger 2013-03-05 06:34
At this point in S8, I'd just like to see a whole new team of writers (Edlund must stay, of course) who have some interest in writing a series about the Winchesters.

I know Carver can write a nice, tight script, but I don't know what he is doing with the season, or if he is even in charge these days. There were so many great opportunities introduced in S8 that now seem nothing more than wasted opportunities.

The bunker? Not so super secret after all and nothing really developed from it, except nice tidy digs for the brothers. It does change the tone of the show, but whether that has any real purpose or not, I'm not sure.

Purgatory? A few nice flashbacks that managed to bridge Crazy Cas back to Normal Cas and reintroduce him back into the show. Not sure what purpose Benny had or has, other than as a tool for tension between the brothers -- tension that miraculously and abruptly went away. And these new 'mature' Winchesters seem more like working partners, not devoutly, devoted brothers.

Amelia? God awful failure of a story. I hope never to have mention that one again. I don't think there can ever be a reasonable explanation as to what Sam ever saw in her or the relationship; especially so much that he dumped Dean and Kevin for her.

The tablets and Naomi? I suppose that story will come into play now that the season is winding down. The whole thing has been so slow to develop that I've pretty much lost interest in it.

In summary, I would like coherent storytelling, less focus on support characters and one-offs, less rehashing and retreading, and the writers to actually watch the series and pin down some continuity in characterizatio n for the leads and canon for the series. I don't think that will happen this season, but there is hope that S9 will bring that.

What I'd like to see in the future is less use of boring recurring characters -- like Garth, Charlie, and Krissy -- more focus on horror/drama and the supernatural, and less on soapish love story themes with a supernatural background.

I know this all sounds harsh, but I'm very disappointed with S8. I know the show can do better than this.
Ripley
# Ripley 2013-03-05 08:36
Thanks for starting this thread. There are quite a few great posts and I love seeing all the different points of view. For me, however, I have more of a "what would really mess the story up" kind of mentality. No Children! No pregnancies or babies and no possibilities of babies. I'd like to know that Sam took care of that possibility! It is a trite storyline on any show - so please NO!
st50
# st50 2013-03-05 08:52
Yes, nightsky. Just yes. Thank you.

I haven't read all the comments here, but I agree 100%. This season started off badly, for me. Yes, I know lots loved it, but I never felt the conflict was real. I was frustrated from the very first episode with what we were shown - and what we weren't. Everything was just 'off' - even the colour scheme!

As a whole, season eight isn't great - yet - not for me. But I'm still waiting and hoping that they can pull it together.
Seven episodes isn't a lot of time, but..... *fingers and toes all crossed and starting to cramp!*
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-03-06 09:35
Quote:
Yes, nightsky. Just yes. Thank you.

I haven't read all the comments here, but I agree 100%. This season started off badly, for me. Yes, I know lots loved it, but I never felt the conflict was real. I was frustrated from the very first episode with what we were shown - and what we weren't. Everything was just 'off' - even the colour scheme!

As a whole, season eight isn't great - yet - not for me. But I'm still waiting and hoping that they can pull it together.
Seven episodes isn't a lot of time, but..... *fingers and toes all crossed and starting to cramp!*
This is where I am right now. I'm so disappointed in what JC did with Sam and the contrived conflict between the brothers that there has to be something major as a reveal for S8 to be saved for me. He has to tie this up for me to consider watching S9.
E
# E 2013-03-05 08:56
I'm with pusscat1701! I am hoping for an extravagant angel conspiracy. That to me seems to best way to tie up all of the loose ends. For me the two HUGE unresolved issues looming large over the season currently are the Sam/not looking issue (no 1. by far) and the Dean/Benny/Purg atory issue. There is so much that is unresolved in these two aspects of the show and these tie in to so many other, smaller aspects many fans are having trouble with, that resolving these two things has become crucial. Without satisfactory resolution of these two main points that brings them together and makes sense of them, I will be forced to call season 8 a failure and assume that JC only did the best that he could in the limited time he was afforded with the mess Gamble left behind.

I have spent the whole of the season so far assuming that there was some type of underlying conspiracy or subplot tying everything together. I still believe that and am waiting with bated breath to be proven right (while sweating bullets that I'll be proven wrong!). nappi815 has written a great theory on another thread that is my new favorite in terms of an overall angel conspiracy. It ties in all of the loose ends very well, provides context for the "Sam didn't look" story and for Dean/Benny/Purg atory as well. If she is not completely correct in her assumptions then they should fire all their current writers and continuity experts and hire her, as she will have done far better than the professionals.
st50
# st50 2013-03-05 09:31
Quote:
Without satisfactory resolution of these two main points that brings them together and makes sense of them, I will be forced to call season 8 a failure and assume that JC only did the best that he could in the limited time he was afforded with the mess Gamble left behind.
I normally agree with you, E, but not with this statement.
... Seasons 6 & 7 definitely had a lot of issues, and I don't like that Sera tried to strip away everyone and everything from Sam and Dean - But I never (except for the first 5 or 6 Soulless episodes) felt like there wasn't a 'deep and abiding love' between the brothers.
Season 8 has had me questioning that connection for 16 episodes.
I agree the season will be a failure for me, without some satisfactory resolution, but I disagree that this is could ever be interpreted as the best JC could do with what he inherited from SG.
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2013-03-05 11:36
st50
I agree with you. I find season six and seven to be vastly superior to this current season. Season six in particular was very exciting and the mystery that went through it with Soulless Sam and with the Castiel/Crowley conspiracy was very interesting.
Then the brothers showed all their love and caring for each other.
X
Season seven was a bit more choppy but it had some great episodes, it only started to go downhill towards the end.
The only things in season seven that really rankled for me were Bobby's death even although I thought that he was given a wonderful send-off and the other thing I didn't appreciate was the easy-fix of Sam's hellucinations by Castiel.
I really liked Dick Roman and his sneaky little smile.
The season could have been paced better, I suppose, but I enjoyed most of it and bonus for the brothers being mostly good and forgiving with each other.
X
To me this season is vastly inferior to either of the two and I think Carver and the writers could have come up with much better stuff than what he has given us.
st50
# st50 2013-03-05 11:58
I wouldn't go quite so far as to call 6 & 7 "vastly superior". I really didn't care for the whole Leviathan plot.
But I never ever doubted the brother bond. That's what made them different. I really dislike doubting it this season.
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2013-03-05 12:17
Sorry. :)
My answer came out badly.
I was referring to my own opinion when I said 6 annd 7 were vastly superior.
The way I set it out sort of included you too, even although your opinion is less enthusiatic. :)
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-05 12:29
I love season 6, 1,2 and 6 are my go-to seasons when I want to just enjoy it. Season 7 was a bit experimental, and ok it didn't work entirely and there were a few unfixable mistakes like getting rid of Bobby and the car BUT they left it at a perfectly fixable, return to the shows roots, point - that wasn't a mess!

What was done with that set-off point, and the issues that bother a huge number of people, is entirely the new showrunner's decision and I am still giving him benefit of the doubt on it, but it REALLY isn't something that can be blamed on Sara Gamble.

Having said that, they are clearly doing something right as the viewer numbers are improving.
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2013-03-06 04:08
My fav seasons are 1,2,3 and 6.
Four and five, while there were some great episodes, make me so sad because of the bad state of the brothers' relationship.
X
Season seven is a mixed bag, some good episodes, some bad but as far as the ending is concerned, I think that it was very good and could have led to so many different plots for season eight.
Sam could have gone into Purgatory to look for Dean and the boys could have encountered all sorts of old enemies like Gordon Walker or Lenore or Madison, etc etc. or it would have been cute if Sam stepping out of the laboratory, got knocked down and lost his memory, building a new life for himself and when Dean got out he could have gone looking for him, gradually helping him get his memory back.
Of course imagination is a wonderful thing but it's just to illustrate that Carver was not in a bad position story-wise at the end of season seven. There were many roads he could have taken, in my opinion.
X
Happily there has been a little surge in the ratings for the last few episodes that have dealt with the brothers and their improved more loving relationship; perhaps because that's what the majority of viewers watch for. :)
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-03-06 09:39
What was done with that set-off point, and the issues that bother a huge number of people, is entirely the new showrunner's decision, but it REALLY isn't something that can be blamed on Sara Gamble.quote]

My thoughts exactly. JC has full responsibility for the brother conflict and the boring Amelia story. He could have chosen to go a different way but didn't. This is not on Gamble at all.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-06 12:14
I do agree. I don't know if whatever missteps that were made during SG's run as showrunner actually carried over to JC. Do budget issue get carried to the next year? The show had its finale on the date it was scheduled so even if they were running behind, they got it done in time. The cliffhanger gave them many ways to go this season. JC chose to retain most of the writing staff. Basically I blame JC for the failures in writing this season.
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-06 12:17
The delays couldn't have been that bad or they wouldn't have made the decision to do an extra episode... which they decided half way through the season didn't they?
E
# E 2013-03-06 15:46
It's my understanding that 23 episodes were planned from the beginning of the season; season 2 had 23 episodes too. But I am by no mean sure of this :lol:

I am not sure where I heard about the delays and trouble during 6&7; I think some comments may have been made at cons etc.... I do remember Jensen mentioning a "learning curve" for Sera Gamble, that there was some trouble with keeping to the 8 filming day schedule... things were running long and the budget was running over. Again, mostly hearsay and innuendo from various interviews and cons. I don't know nuthin' really.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2013-03-08 06:18
E, I'm pretty sure the only season so far with 23 episodes was 7, and 8 will have too as far as I know. I don't recall season 2 having 23 episodes.
st50
# st50 2013-03-05 12:52
No problem, isleofskye.
I really don't think SG left the series in a mess.
Soulless Sam is one of my favourite Sams, and when I'm feeling down about the brothers, one of my favourite go-to episodes is HCW. Both Js knocked that one out of the park, imo.
Wasn't so impressed with how they brought Cas back, or the magical fix of Sam's head... but....Season 6 and 7 both provided some great stuff.

I'm really hoping to be able to say the same about season 8.
And eilf - the viewer numbers are up! At the beginning of the season, I think it was because of a new night and all the hopes we had for Carver being back. Now, I think the surge is because the brothers are finally back on the same page.
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-05 13:00
Yes. I think it becoming available for streaming on Netflix helped viewer numbers a bit too - it seems to be in 'Popular on Netflix' a lot at the moment.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-05 12:28
I also disagree w/the idea that Gamble left the show in a mess or a terrible place. I actually couldn't disagree more w/that statement.

Carver took what could have been an awesome story (i.e., Sam rescuing Dean from Purgatory) - a story that many of us have been waiting to see since S3 - and ditched it for a lame romance and continued brother conflict. Really?!?! I know Carver quit for a few years, but the brothers had been in conflict for almost FOUR straight years. We didn't need more brother conflict. We needed the brothers to be together and in sync w/each other. We needed the main arc to have some personal importance or significance to the brothers.

There's a reason the ratings have increased since ATGB aired. I think it's because the arc became personal for the brothers w/the MOL and the closing the gates story. I also think it helps that the brothers are finally in sync w/each other. It helps to see that they love each other. Those speeches in that hellhound episode were awesome. We know the brothers care deeply about each other. I'm not sure why the writers stopped showing that.

I also love S6. I thought the first half was much stronger than the second half, but overall, it was much more enjoyable to me than the first 11 episodes of this season. S8 didn't start for me until ATGB.

I don't have much love for S7. However, it was still better, IMO, than this season. It gave me one of the best episodes of Supernatural ever made IMO in HCW. And even though I felt the brothers were written too much like co-workers, I never felt they didn't care about each other. I left S7 upset that the boys would be separated. After the Penny episode of this season (forgot the title again), I thought it would probably be best for the boys to actually separate for good. I honestly would have had no problem w/Sam just leaving the show at that point. That's how "off" his character was to me. My interest drifted during most of the episodes in the first half. I actually found myself switching the channel during the show - something I had never done in the 7 years I watched the show. I was seriously considering dropping the show, and this is the ONLY show where I own every single season. All that turned around w/ATGB.

No, I can't say Carver was fixing Gamble's mess b/c I don't think Gamble left a mess. I think Carver made a mess of the show that he's only recently halfway begun to turn around. Nothing, IMO, can be done to change the mess he made of the beginning of this season.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-05 13:29
I completely agree with this. I really enjoyed season six, especially in retrospect because I can see how the pieces came together at the end. IMHO, season seven had problems because they had stated that if Sam's wall broke he would be dead or mentally incompetent and then they didn't want to write Sam being visibly insane. I wish they could have made him like River Tam in Firefly, obviously disturbed and unstable, but still pulling himself together when he needed to in order to help Dean. I actually didn't hate that they killed Bobby. I would have preferred that Bobby have been in a coma, but as the series went on, the boys began to rely on Bobby to an extent that they looked as if they couldn't function well without him. So I had no problem with them taking "magical Bobby who knows all and sees all" out of the mix. They handled his death well so although I would like to have Bobby able to come back by non-supernatura l means, I can accept his being gone.

I did dislike the deus ex machina of Cas taking Sam's insanity, never to be heard of again. I also resented that the writers were able to incorporate an obviously mentally ill Cas in the storyline when they refused to do it with Sam. I thought that transporting Dean to Purgatory was a great springboard to this season and I had real hope that Sam would rescue Dean to make up for his failure to do so in season 3.

This season fell completely apart during the first half. The lack of explanation of Sam's actions in not looking for Dean and secondarily not looking for Kevin continue to overshadow the parts of the story that I like. Amelia seemed like a character they liked in principle, but couldn't get a handle on writing in any way, shape or form. Benny was simply to cause friction between Sam and Dean and didn't contribute much to any ongoing character exploration, IMHO. If the Sam portrayal doesn't get fixed, this season and the rest of the show will be permanently tainted for me. And no, I don't want them fixing it in season 9 or 10 or any season after this one.

I honestly have no idea how much of an influence Carver has had on this whole season. He has only written one episode and he has done few producer's previews. Jared and Jensen have had most of the interviews along with Bob Singer and Ben Edlund. I know Carver is the named showrunner, but I honestly don't know what he is responsible for. He's very quiet about the show.

So as of now, I enjoyed SG's reign as showrunner far more than I have enjoyed JC's. The back half of the season could pull things off, but as of now the writers thoroughly trashed the brotherly bond and now the sudden decision that the bond is back hasn't convinced me. To me, this season is a pretty big mess with issues that are far larger than any other season, thus far.
Amy
# Amy 2013-03-05 15:27
Im just gonna say i agree whole heartedly with Percy. Though even if they somehow fix things in the back half(?) back quarter(?) the season in regards to the brothers has alreadyy been tainted. They love each other. Thats nice but its not enough. Im ready for them to be split up...Dean with his better brothers Cas and Benny....just give Sam someone he could call brother.and friend too. MAybe a first generation werewolf whose also a Hunter. That'd be fun. :)
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-05 15:31
.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-05 16:39
That would change the show and it won't happen. If it did, I want Sam to get a human companion. Let Dean's unerring instinct for picking good monsters have him work with the supernatural creatures. Sam can find Krissy's father or Tamara from Mag 7 or any other hunter and go with them. Just no one that Dean can sneer about when he and Sam run into each other. No "you always sleep with monsters" comment or even "you always work with monsters".
Amy
# Amy 2013-03-05 17:01
Quote:
That would change the show and it won't happen. If it did, I want Sam to get a human companion. Let Dean's unerring instinct for picking good monsters have him work with the supernatural creatures. Sam can find Krissy's father or Tamara from Mag 7 or any other hunter and go with them. Just no one that Dean can sneer about when he and Sam run into each other. No "you always sleep with monsters" comment or even "you always work with monsters".
Very true. Sam's friend should be solidly human. How about Aaren and the Golum. The MOL and the JI team up. We can toss in Kevin too. Or Sam can team up with Jody Mills.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-05 18:29
I'd like Aaron and the Golem and I love Jody Mills. I could go for that. Heck I'd like all of them to come back at some point.
Amy
# Amy 2013-03-05 18:44
Can i add an addenendum on Jody, Percy? Jody can come back as long as she leaves the mommy behind. Sam doesn't need a mommy he needs a friend. :)
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-05 18:51
That's fine with me. I just want somebody who LIKES Sam best.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-05 19:26
See the mom voice line was one of my favorites from the episode. I don't think either of them has had enough nurturing in their lives. She obviously respected him and I don't think she was saying it condescendingly , so I really loved it.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-05 19:20
Amy, I have to say I completely and totally hate that idea in every way shape and form. To me the show is not Sam or Dean BUT Sam AND Dean. Basically one unit. The idea of them going there separate ways with their new besties completely depresses me. I seriously doubt the PTB would ever go that way, but I think they would lose a large portion of their viewers if they did.
Amy
# Amy 2013-03-05 19:55
Kelly,in a way the writers already have... Dean with Castiel and benny have all had their independant adventures....o nly Sam doesn't have anyone...he's isolated and alone.
Sam has no charector to bounce off of except Dean and its not like we'll ever get to see a differnt side of Sam with Dean....heck when Sam and Cas are in a scene together they still barely interact with eachother. And Sam is still this tightly reserved person around Castiel. I think its becasue they are NOT friends. And Sam doesn't feel safe in lowering those walls.

To an extent its the same with Dean except with him its because not only is Dean Sams brother but in a way Dean is Sams "tiger mommy'. Sam just isn't going to be as open with Dean because he wont know if he will get his brother and hunting partner or the Tiger Mommy or a confusing mix of both.

Sam needs a charector he can bounce off of.....lower his walls and reveal his inner self to. Jody would be good if she leaves the momy part out. Sam i think didn't lack for nurturing but an over nurturing considering JOhn, Dean and Bobby have all claimed to raise him. I can't even imagine the confusing mess of extremes Sam had to manuver through while growing up. I mean Dean supposedly wanting Sam to remain innocent and have a child hood and John wanting a second perfect soldier and Bobby....probba ly dumped him off in the library.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-05 21:00
Amy, I think you see Sam as a lot more sensitive than I do. And I can make Sam pretty emo at times. :D
Amy
# Amy 2013-03-08 13:49
Quote:
Amy, I think you see Sam as a lot more sensitive than I do. And I can make Sam pretty emo at times. :D
I see Sam as so screwed up by Dean, John (an Bobby if we can beleive Bobby that he had a hand in raising him) that Sam draws into himself so tightly because he doesn't iknow what will set off any of these people...though all he has to concern hiomself with is Dean and Dean responds extrem;ly poorly if Sam shows any independant thought or feelings that isn't a clone of Dean. But he also gets trashed when he does react as Dean wants him to as well.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-09 01:22
Amy, I do see Sam and Dean both as a little broken. But you are describing someone who is abused, at least mentally. We know John and Sam butted heads as teenagers, but we and we know they said hurtful things to each other. But I don't think anything we seen anything that has gone so far as to be truly abusive.

Have we ever seen Bobby yell at Sam? He's yelled at Dean in a tough love kind of way, but I don't think he was ever shown even doing that with Sam. And was usually really respectful of Sam's opinion.

Dean and Sam have an extremely complicated relationship. Neither is perfect and both have issues with communication. And yes Dean is bossy sometimes. And I don't think he trusts Sam as much as he should and I would like them to show him letting go of past resentments. BUT he is NOT abusive to Sam. Yes he's had moments of being an asshole, even when not under a spell.

But most of the time he listens to Sam's opinion and is proud of Sam's talents and accomplishments . Yes he likes to be right and usually thinks he is. But most of the time Sam argues right back if he doesn't agree. They only time it truly bothered me was in the Mentalist when he just said Dean was right. With no apparent explanation. That did just look like he was caving to what Dean wanted despite his own beliefs.

But the reason that stands out to me is that is not typical of Sam. Usually Sam argues his point (or goes his own way). That is not the attitude of some abused, submissive creature. Dean does follow Sam's opinion lot of times. But the problem is they are always overshadowed by the dramatic times he doesn't. But that doesn't mean those times didn't happen.

Now I will agree, in the early episodes especially, that if Dean made a decision they just went. But if Sam wanted to work a case, he had to convince Dean. But Dean did go with Sam, the exception being like Scarecrow and Hunted when Sam took off. But Dean made amends over the phone and truthfully they both had valid points in Scarecrow. And in Hunted Sam knew Dean would be there as soon as he called.

I do think he is too hard on himself (which may have been the reason he didn't defend himself better in SC) but he still didn't cower away from Dean or even back down from the accusation. He told Dean he had to let it go or he was leaving. I don't see this timid guy would doesn't stick up for himself at all.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-09 02:39
Kelly, I see Sam the same way. When I imagine how it was with John I see Sam standing up for himself rather than go along with the program. Sam liked to tell Dean that he just followed John's orders blindly. Dean didn't deny that and told Sam that he was proud of him and that he wished he could...(presum ably stand up to John) in Scarecrow. I saw Sam as a quiet, introverted, strong-willed young man who always knew what he wanted and butted heads with his dad often. I still view him that way. He has never failed to stand up to anyone if he felt strongly about something. I agree that his relationship with Dean is complicated but not abusive. Sam has never held back his opinions. Sam is damaged but I have never seen him as an abused person cowering in fear of Dean or anyone else.
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2013-03-09 03:58
Reply to KELLY.
X
I too have never seen Sam as in any way abused. Certainly the chilhood both brothers had, and the way they were brought up, marked them for life but if we look at the earliest glimpse we get of Sam which is in AVSC, when he's around nine, he seems to hold his own perfectly well with his 4 years older brother Dean, showing admirably adult traits in his discussions, with no sign of any abused attitude.
X
The next time we see him in in After School Special where if anything he acts like more of an adult than Dean does, demonstrating a complete understanding of the life he is expected to lead in hunting monsters, and already hating that it is to be his future.
X
Possibly when he became an older teen and felt more able to stand up to his father, he seriously thought that he had a chance of leaving that life to go to college and become a laywer.
We know that usually the teen years are filled with a lot of rebellion against one's parents, the child striving to becaome a man if you will. Remember he was still only eighteen when he left.
X
So I definitely think Sam has always been his own man with his own ideas and with the will- power and conviction to carry them out.
I definitely don't see him as being dominated in any way by Dean; I see them as a perfect team, one complimenting the other like two sides oif a coin, at times in agreement and at times in disagreement, as is normal with any siblings, speaking from personal experience too.:)
Amy
# Amy 2013-03-09 14:37
Kelly, i really do think there is some sort of abuse going on. Weather its emotional, psychological or manipution to control I'm not sure.

But Show has taken great pains to illustrate Sam's independant nature as wrong/bad. Sam wants out of hunting, a more normal, SAFE life. He bust his butt to get full shcolorship too Stanford. JOhn throws him out of the house and tells him never to come back. Not to mention John put a contract on Sams life without one shred of information about his suposed destiny. Never had one shred of faith in hsi own son. Save him or kill him. Wouldn't information...k nowledge help SAVE Sam? Help Sam save himself?

Dean holds it against Sam for 8 years except for the occasional time when he claims he's proud of his accomplishments . Then he does a 180 and tells Sam how selfish he is for those veryy choices. Eventually Sam comes around to Deans pov and suddenly Dean does a 180 and once again Sam is wrong for beleiving/think ing/feelinmg what he does. And round and round they go. And then Dean (unconciously im saying unconciously because Changing Channels has pointed out that Dean beleives JOhn and Mary would be alive if Sam had never been born. I belleive Dean DOES blame Sam for the life he lost) uses his 'favorite person'/profoun d bond status' with Bobby and Castiel against Sam.

What happens? Castiel claims Sam as a friend but he uses him as a tool and nothing more to hurt Dean. He claims they are friends but when Sam mysteriously reappears from Hell Castiel never asnwers his prayers. Sam needs a friend (even if Souless doesn't know it)...but said friend uses him, nearly kills him and gloats over his pain (and this was before Cas took in the leviation) And then he pretends he didn't know Sam was Souless when all he had to do is look into Deans eyes...AND a hookers to see their soul was hurting. And Cas has told Sam he 'mostly ignores him".

Bobby once told Sam he would never cut Sam out....but he did. Not phsyically but emotionally he did. When Sam couldn't tell reality from his hallucinations Sam needed his family more then ever. What did Bobby do? He walked away from Sam when he needed him the most.

And then there was when Sam returned souless. Bobby - whos supposedly loved Sam like a son - never once suspected something off about Sam. Never once thought Sam might need some sort of support after experiencing Hell. I wonder just how much Bobby tried to guilt/manipulat e Sam into not contacing Dean ad tell him he was out of hell. it must have been one hell of an argument because Souless apparently saw the logic in not contacting Dean.

But mostly It was Bobby - without one single word of support - walked away from Sam when he needed his family the most. ALL of his family.

But everyone.....Jo hn, Bob by, Castiel never gives Sam the time of day...just pushing him at Dean for every shred of human contact. Maybe its not abuse but neglect.

And Sam still loves them...at least he loved John and Bobby and saught to see their POV, to reconcile his rift with John.

Castiiel has claimed friendship with Sam but his actions are the furthest from it. SAm once again extends olive branches and understanding.. .part because he understood what Cas went through adn part because he knew Dean needed Cas.

Sam gives everyone his heart time and time again and gets crumbs in return.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-09 15:41
Sorry Amy, that is a little sad to me, if you really feel that way about Sam and his relationships to the other characters. That he gets "crumbs" after he gives his heart over and over. I too think Sam has a big heart. I think Bobby and Dean also have big hearts and have shown that in numerous way in the course of the series.These relationships had their ups and downs but to say Sam gave and gave and only got crumbs in return is not true IMO. This view must really taint your enjoyment of the show.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-09 23:15
Leah, I agree with a lot of Amy's views. I'll start with my view of John.

I believe John was abusive to both Sam and Dean and that when he died his last actions were destructive to both of them. Dean was told he might have to kill Sam. John refused to even say goodbye to Sam and ordered his death. I can't view either action as anything except abusive. I have often said that some parents have the ability to make every child feel they are the most loved. John had the ability to make both Sam and Dean feel like they were failures in his eyes and were the less loved child. Because of the strong Dean POV many viewers say that John loved Sam best, because that is what Dean states. But John, knowing that Sam was a target of demons, lets Sam be totally alone at Stanford. He watches from the shadows. Is it to save Sam from the demons? Or is it to kill Sam if he steps out of line? We don't know because John never says. Dean believes John is looking out for Sam, but that is before the "save him or kill him" command. Personally, I can't picture a worse way to protect your child than to throw him out of the house and leave him to the dangers of the world.

I have not seen any evidence that Bobby really loves Sam although there has been a lot showing Bobby's love for Dean. In Bobby's flashbacks in Death's Door, his memories are only of being with young Dean. Bobby admits to Dean, after the fight at the factory making the vaccine that will spread the Croatoan virus, that Bobby didn't expect Sam to put the lives of others first. Bobby is unable to see Sam as different from Soulless!Sam after Sam is resoulled, even though Sam has no knowledge of why. Bobby admits to liking Dean better than Sam. For me the final proof is that, in spite of the fights with John, and knowing that John wanted him dead, Sam only sees John as his father. The surrogate father relationship with Bobby is really only with Dean. Sam loves Bobby, but he sees himself as John's son.

I have never seen Cas as being a true friend to Sam. He is already prejudiced against Sam for being the "boy with demon blood". He is ordered by heaven to turn Dean against Sam, mostly because he believes that Sam is evil and must be stopped. He deliberately releases Sam from the panic room so that Sam can release Lucifer. Once that has happened, Cas denies any responsibility and blames Dean, and mostly Sam for Lucifer being free. After he brings Sam back, he denies knowledge of anything being wrong with Sam and eventually breaks Sam's wall as a tactic to stop Dean. The only time he ever expresses remorse is when Dean is able to hear it. Yet Sam forgives Cas and tries to bring him back into the fold.

Dean is terribly and understandably conflicted in his feelings for Sam and he more often than not condemns Sam's actions. Dean was charged with protecting Sam before he was able to carry that out. Also at a young age Dean had to sacrifice most of his desires, wants and needs in order to carry out John's orders. This would lead to resentment. Dean is torn between admiring Sam for being independent and resenting him for leaving Dean after all Dean has done for him. The fact that Dean is unable to see a place for himself outside the family makes his issues with Sam stronger, IMHO. So Dean is bipolar about Sam. He tells Sam he admires him in season one then has a fit when Sam indicates that he intends to return to his college life and his dreams once the "thing that killed Jess and Mom" is dead. I also think that Dean is an emotional hoarder. He holds onto loving Mary, the image of John as the perfect father and the image of the child Sam that worshiped him. He also holds on to every time Sam let him down. I do believe he has not truly let go of his anger at Sam for going to college, and especially for choosing Ruby. He demonstrated the resentment over college in the first episode of this season when he was visibly angry that Sam had sent emails to colleges about re-enrolling. These were sent before Sam knew Dean was alive. To me that is Dean not letting go of past resentments. I see his resentment of Amelia to be more about Sam turning to Ruby than Amelia herself, because Dean never met Amelia. Dean hoards his anger as well as his love and it often works against a healthy relationship between Sam and him.

What I don't see this as is being sad. Many times, even on this forum fans express the views that Sam doesn't show enough love for Dean. That John loved Sam best. That Sam hates Benny because he doesn't want Dean happy. That Dean is secondary to Sam. If people can view Dean as a misunderstood woobie who only gets crumbs then I can see Sam the same way and be no more or less sad. I'm far less likely to have the show validate my view but that is the way the show is being written.

Unfortunately, Sam has been isolated from anyone but Dean by the writers and Dean has very mixed feelings about Sam. Dean has also been portrayed as someone who takes criticisms so deeply to heart that Sam can NOT discuss issues with Dean and not be seen as being mean and petty, while Dean can ding Sam for 10 episodes and be seen as being honest and correct.

It's a different way of viewing the show. It makes me more likely to be unhappy with it perhaps, but that doesn't make me wrong or particularly sad.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-09 23:57
I think it is sad when anyone on either side of the debate thinks one of the characters is that mistreated and abused. I did not say Amy was sad. I just think that view of Sam (beaten down) has to make enjoying the show very difficult. And the comments bear me out many times. I made it clear that the idea of Sam being a sadsack who gives and gives and gets only crumbs in return was not true in my opinion. I see Sam as stronger than that and very able to hold his own against all comers.I disagree that is all. I do think John was abusive in some ways but I also think Dean being there then and now has helped Sam be as strong as he is. Despite their differences Dean has rallied and been there for Sam time and time again. So no I cannot agree that Sam has been beatened down and abused by everyone in his life to the point he can hardly function. I hope I can disagree with something and not have you feel that I am calling you or anyone sad, or that I think your views are entirely wrong, that is not the case. Thanks.
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2013-03-10 04:21
Replying to percysowner.
X
While I agree with a lot of of the points you make, I don't agree with Sam being the weaker and more put upon of the two brothers.
The very fact that Dean resisted such a relatively short time in Hell before starting the Apocalypse by breaking the first seal while Sam resisted 180 years in the Cage is a sign of Sam's strength of character.
By the way, I always wondered here about what would have happened to Sam's soul if he hadn't been rescued, Would he have eventually turned into a demon too like those in normal Hell? Muh.

As I said elsewhere I think the brothers compliment and complete each other character-wise, making them a formidabile team when they work together.
X
Their upbringing with John obviously affected them both in different ways. There is a four-year age difference between the brothers which when growing up has its own importance, then Dean had memories, albeit hazy, of a normal family life, Sam didn't, that too influencing their characters.
X
As for Bobby, here I agree that he prefers Dean for the simple reason that he admitted it himself when he was under the truth spell, so it can't be denied in any way but this could have happened also because Dean being the elder was able to interact more with Bobby; an eight or nine years old is going to start building up a better relationship with a crusty old hunter than a four-year old is, so in a way Bobby had more time to get to know Dean.
X
As for Castiel, here again I agree completely with what you wrote. He has never shown any particulr fondness for Sam, his attention always being concentrated on Dean, chosen as Michael's meatsuit and therefore more 'holy' than Sam.
X
As for their relationship with each other; yes they have both thrown accusations and blame at one other, and have often made discutible decisions, but because they have such a strong caring reciprical brotherly love which pushes them to give their lives for one another , no matter what they do that love is never going to change. It's the base of the whole story.
X
Sam loves Dean as much as Dean loves him, there's no doubt about that IMO, even when the writers try to tear it apart.
X
As for Sam not having friends. No-one stops him from having them, least of all Dean who has always encouragd hm to go out and socialise , see Sarah, for example.

Maybe Sam is good as he is, maybe he doesn't need anyone else but Dean as a friend and confidante, then who says he would even open up to them, he didn't to Amelia (thank goodness!) :)
Sam's a big boy, he doesn't have to stay with Dean if he doesn't want to but he has always chosen to in the end, just as Dean has always chosen Sam. It's simply who they are.
"It's me and you against the world," Dean said and no truer words were spoken. :)
X
Then we have to remember that every word or action spoken by the brothers comes not from them but from the wishes of the writers.
st50
# st50 2013-03-10 11:45
Quote:

As for their relationship with each other; yes they have both thrown accusations and blame at one other, and have often made discutible decisions, but because they have such a strong caring reciprical brotherly love which pushes them to give their lives for one another , no matter what they do that love is never going to change. It's the base of the whole story.
X
And there's the problem with season 8. The "base of the whole story" just changed. Sam found his limit. Would he truly still give his life to save Dean's?
Yes, he'll still jump into the fight, that we've seen with the hellhound, but that could've been an adrenalin rush.
Given the chance to think about it, would he still do anything necessary for his brother?
The season has raised the question and nothing done since episode one has answered it.
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2013-03-10 12:18
In my opinion Sam still would do anything for his brother, even if one takes the 'non-looking ' at face value.

After all, every time Sam participates in a hunt, he is putting his life on the line for people he doesn't even know, like the horrible 'faux-Dallas' family in Trial and Error, so in my mind he would definitely do so for Dean too.
X
The fact that in the season opener the writers made Sam act as he did, can't take away what the brothers have been doing since season one, dying for each other.
X
The whole season is just schizophrenic to me.
If the writers wanted to show that Sam no longer cares for his brother as he did before, why is he even still with him.
If you decide that Sam doesn't look for Dean when everyone knows he would, then the writers have to give us a reason, if they don't then I as a viewer who has followed the story from the beginning is just going to be confused.
X
Alll I can say is that I hope the writers realise just what an important thing it is to fix the 'not-looking' because it was so out of character for Sam. :)
st50
# st50 2013-03-10 12:25
ilseofskye -
Yes, Sam would do something - he continues to save people while on a hunt, because that's who he is.
But he was also able to turn away, saying someone else would save them, or not and people would die, because that's what people do.
The first 10 episodes tried to re-invent Sam, imo, so that the Sam who raced in to save the world in the first seven seasons doesn't seem to exist anymore. Maybe Sam is starting to remember who he used to be (in the last 6 episodes), but the fact remains that he left Dean, Kevin, and everyone else who was impacted by the supernatural over the period that Dean was away. And he left them by his own choice. Not because he'd been asked to (like Dean in season 6).
This leads me to doubt that he is the same person who would give his life/soul/sanit y for his brother.

To me, this is the most crucial "fix" required. I just can't see that it's coming.
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2013-03-10 12:47
st50.
The fact that Sam left the hunting life or Kevin doesn't bother me, what bothers me is that he walked out of the laboratory and never even thought to look for Dean.

At a pinch I could understand him giving up hunting but not giving up on Dean.

What I don't understand is why the writers felt that making Sam do that, and sending him off with Amelia was a good idea, and I never will.
x
It's true that Dean went to Lisa because Sam made him promise but if Dean had really wanted to keep hunting he would have, despite the promise.
X
As you say though, I can't see this crucial fix coming either, unfortunately.
st50
# st50 2013-03-10 12:54
Sam from previous seasons would never have left Kevin to Crowley without an attempt to save him.... another hit to his character.

When Dean stopped hunting: He could've kept going, yes, but Sam had asked him to try an "apple pie life". Which is what he was doing.
Dean was STILL doing everything just for Sam. (and he did care for Lisa and Ben, I believe. That was genuine).
BUT Dean looked for Sam. Researched on how to save him. That is canon, so Dean's character did not take a hit by this. It was heartbreaking.

This..... not so much. Sam's character can not help but take another (unnecessary) hit.
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2013-03-10 13:17
st50
I think we're going round in circles here while saying the same thing; that is that the writers have trashed Sam's character and they should fix it as soon as possible. :)
st50
# st50 2013-03-10 16:21
Just saw this, isleofskye.
:-) Agreed. :-)
Amy
# Amy 2013-03-10 12:40
Replying to percysowner.
X
While I agree with a lot of of the points you make, I don't agree with Sam being the weaker and more put upon of the two brothers.
The very fact that Dean resisted such a relatively short time in Hell before starting the Apocalypse by breaking the first seal while Sam resisted 180 years in the Cage is a sign of Sam's strength of character.


I dont think either of the boys situations can be compared. They were two completly differnt situations.

Deans torure has purpose...a goal... Dean was tortured for the express purpose of breaking him so he would spill blood in Hell thus breaking the first seal. There was reason and purpose to Deans torure.

Sam....Sam's torure was for the sake of torture. Lucifer had no agenda for torturing Sam expect for his own sheer pleasure.

Dean was given a choice to end his own torture all he had to do was pick up the knife and torture others. The thought was so aborant to him he withstood it for 30 years. I'd say that was the result of an exceedingly strong man.

If you HAD too compare ...well... how long did Sam last before he gave into Rubys manipulations and the blood drinking/addict ion? One month?

30 days VS 30 years.
st50
# st50 2013-03-10 12:57
I don't think it's worth comparing the two, but imo...

Torture by a demon with a purpose vs. torture by an arch-angel having had all his plans thwarted by a mere human.

How do you compare that?

Plus, notice how quickly a lesser angel (Castiel) succumbed to the after-affects (hallucinations ) of that torture.
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2013-03-10 13:07
Reply to Amy.
X
I love both brothers and I wasn't in any way trying to criticise Dean, I was only using the Hell time as a comparison to show that Sam isn't any weaker than Dean is.
I don't know how Dean managed to resist 30 years, I would have given up after a second!

Yes the two situations were different but they both were based on torture and both brothers had to suffer it.
X
As for Sam/Ruby, he was desperate when Dean was dragged to Hell and feeling terribly guilty that Dean had gone there to save him.
We all saw the state he was in afterwards;, how he went to the Crossroads demon and tried to change places with his brother. He was reduced to a drunken larva in the months after Dean's death.
When Ruby saved his life and then gave him a way, or so he thought to get Dean out of Hell by enhancing his demon powers he went for it.
That was his only reason, but then things have a way of going downhill even with the best intentions.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-10 13:25
Quote:
If you HAD too compare ...well... how long did Sam last before he gave into Rubys manipulations and the blood drinking/addiction? One month? 30 days VS 30 years.
I agree the torture of Sam was completely different than Dean's. He had no respite and no way of stopping the torture. Hell tortured people with the purpose of having them lose the rest of their humanity so they would become demons. The Cage did not, so there was no reason for Sam to break in that way. People suffering constant pain due to cancer or other illness don't lose their humanity because there is no reason to.

I actually think Sam/Ruby is more akin to Dean in AHBL2. Dean knew that selling his soul was wrong. He had condemned others who did it as getting what they deserved, but he didn't last 2 days before he chose to do something he believed was morally bad and Dean was in no way responsible for what happened to Sam. Sam lasted about as long as Dean did before he tried to make a deal, so I think they were equal there. Ruby simply was a different way of selling his soul, and to be fair, she was helping him do good things, killing the demon while saving the host, so there was less obvious wrong in Sam working with Ruby. The blood drinking is icky and we never saw how he started that, but there was no indication that he knew DB was addictive, so he didn't START trying to become or even considering he could become an addict. Many real people get hooked on pain killers after being in an accident, because they don't know about the ramifications of the drugs they are taking.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-10 18:15
I believe both brothers are strong and weak at times. Dean withstood 30 years of horrific torture. That's pretty amazing to me, and I don't think it should be disregarded. We don't know much about Sam's time in the Cage, but he withstood it for 180 years, so that says something. As others pointed out though, Sam's torture had no purpose or greater goal. He was just being tortured to be tortured.
The two situations aren't really comparable.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-10 13:16
I didn't mean to imply that Sam is weaker or necessarily put upon. It takes great strength to pursue your dreams when the family you comes from sees no value in them. It takes a lot to break from someone as controlling as John. Going out on the world on your own knowing they will never take you back if you fail (if you go stay gone) takes great courage and strength.

I also don't see Sam as put upon. I merely think that he didn't have much emotional support for who he is at his core. For all of Bobby's statements that he loves both boys, he is shown as being more attached to Dean. I discussed John at length. Dean loves Sam, but I think it is a more complex situations than he just love Sam. He also resents him and blames him for not meeting Dean's expectations. Most deep relationships are complex and Dean was shaped by John's demands, which make him a complex person.

The only way Sam was put upon was by the actions of the demons, tainting him at age six months and the angels, using him to jump start the Apocalypse. The first was totally out of Sam's control. The second played on Sam's weaknesses, and he does have weaknesses. As to Sam choosing to not have friends, I think it is more a case that since he doesn't truly enjoy the hunting world, he doesn't click with many hunters. Plus the writers have made some odd choices with guest stars. I never quite understood Krissy being so grateful to Dean when Sam was the one who answered her call, Sam was the one who went to rescue her father and Sam was the one who put his life on the line to buy her father more time. But as you say, this is result of writing that sometimes doesn't make much sense.
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2013-03-10 13:35
repying to percysowner.
X
§ I never quite understood Krissy being so grateful to Dean when Sam was the one who answered her call, Sam was the one who went to rescue her father and Sam was the one who put his life on the line to buy her father more time. But as you say, this is result of writing that sometimes doesn't make much sense.§
X
I don't know if the show was designed like this from the beginning but Dean is the narrator, and most things are explained to us through his POV.
That's why it's usually he who has more interaction with the guest stars.
X
In the case of Krissy, she was written as a teen Dean little sis. and the writers wanted to draw the comparison between her and Dean. I have to say I wasn't greatly enamoured of her and am not waiting with baited breath if she should ever turn up again.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-10 14:11
I think that" they will never take you back if you fail" shouldn't include Dean. Sam's fight was with his Dad. His brother stormed off and left Dean too. He still has issues with Sam leaving him. Sam has shown he can go his own way and not look back. He was and is very strong in his convictions. In my earlier comment, the only thing I took issue with was Sam being characterized as abused and beatened down by everyone that he loves. That he draws into himself and is afraid to speak up for fear he will set Dean off. I just cannot ever see Sam in that light.

And I'm not sure why Bobby doesn't get credit for loving Sam just because he had a closer relationship with Dean. Parents sometimes have a favorite child, that doesn't mean they don't love all of them greatly.

If you set aside the episodes from earlier this year I don't see the resentments Dean (and Sam, he's had them) had are any different than any other siblings. My personal view of Dean's resentments stem from his dad placing all those responsibilitie s on his head. Watch Sammy, take care of your brother while I am gone and don't ever screw it up because he might die! It is no wonder Dean thought he was less important in his dad's eyes. That to me is the cause of Dean's resentment. Was any of this Sam's fault? No but childhood scars run deep.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-10 18:36
I see Bobby and Sam's relationship was undeveloped. The writers spent most of the time building up Bobby and Dean's relationship. They shared the most scenes and were just closer.

As someone pointed out, Sam never refers to Bobby as a "second father" to him; that's always been Dean. When they had to name the baby, Sam was quick to say, "John" while Dean said "Bobby." I never bought into the idea that Bobby was like a father to Sam. I know SS tried to kill him in that episode, but Bobby was the only person available who halfway met the criteria. Dean was off w/Death or Tessa so it's not like SS could have tried to kill Dean.

Bobby just never seemed to care all that much about Sam if you ask me. He was willing to use Sam as a weapon at the end of S4. He never kept in touch w/Sam after NRFTW. He walked away when Sam spoke of his hallucinations. He, for some unknown reason, wanted to tell Sam what SS had done to him. I guess he wanted Sam to feel bad b/c why else tell Sam? And he told Dean that some part of the real Sam wanted him dead.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-10 21:05
lala, I agree that Sam probably didn't think of Bobby as a parent. The uncle Bobby thing probably carried over to adulthood but I do think he viewed Bobby as family. I do believed he loved Bobby and it was mutual. I tend to remember the instances in the show when Bobby displayed his love for Sam. He wasn't mushy or gushy with either of them but I felt the love. I think Bobby was shook up after SS tried to kill him and was leary until he could see Sam was ok. Yes Bobby was closer to Dean but in my view he still loved Sam very much. Sam's character, to me, has not always encouraged closeness. He was close to Jess. And Dean. Sometimes. I think his life experiences coupled with his introverted nature contributed to that. Different perspective I guess.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-11 11:29
Leah, I agree that Sam viewed Bobby as family and that Sam loved Bobby. I'm also sure Bobby loved Sam.

I do think it was a distant kind of love. You know . . . the love you have for distant relatives you don't see very often. You would hate to hear this relative died, but his/her death wouldn't devastate you.

I think that's the kind of love Bobby had for Sam. Bobby didn't want to Sam to die, but Sam's actual death didn't devastate him or lead him to abuse alcohol like Dean's death did.

Leah, to be brutally honest, I was really upset in YCHTT when Bobby said Dean was his favorite. I know it was played for laughs but by that point in the show, I had removed my own rose-colored glasses re: Bobby and Sam (and that's not to say anyone who thinks they had a very strong relationship is wrong . . . I'm just saying I, personally, no longer believed in the strength of their relationship) so that was really just stating the obvious and pouring salt in an open wound. For me, it was like Show was saying, "In case you didn't know, Bobby cares more about Dean than Sam." I was like, "Yeah, I knew that Show but never thought you'd so blatantly say it."

It just rubbed me the wrong way. I guess that's when I became even more entrenched in this idea of Sam getting his own friends/associa tes. Sam is an extremely isolated character. We've seen him bond w/people in HS and in college, so I don't buy into this idea that Sam's a loner. He needs a friend since he and Dean don't talk to each other. I would have loved to see some exploration of the Bobby/Sam "relationship," but it never happened. Their relationship played out in "words." IMO, it was never shown that they were extremely close or that Bobby saw Sam like a son. I believe Sam saw Bobby more as family (i.e., uncle) than Bobby saw him as a son. Dean was Bobby's son. We saw that connection. We didn't get to see that w/Bobby and Sam.
LeahMae
# LeahMae 2013-03-11 13:40
lala, I completely understand your point of view. I did not like that Bobby said that either! I just felt more warmth in the relationship than others. But thats just me!! :-)
Ale
# Ale 2013-03-11 14:53
I think what Bobby said had to put into context of what was happening then. Sam was soulless but nobody knew then. SS was not lovable. But he was a great hunter - not having a soul made him a better hunter than Dean. But I don't think Bobby said Sam was a better hunter than Dean in general - just at that moment. Thus, also don't think Bobby said Dean was his favorite in general - just at that moment.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-12 10:55
I disagree with this. Bobby said that Sam was the better hunter "lately". He stated that Dean was his favorite with no qualification. People have favorites and they don't often change, no matter how behavior may change. Now, I can understand how Dean could be Bobby's favorite. Bobby didn't raise the boys full time, only when John needed them to be stashed somewhere. Dean was older and extremely responsible. Dean and Bobby shared and interest in hunting early on. We didn't see Bobby relate with Sam in Death's Door, so they may simply not have shared interests as much as Dean and Bobby. Finally, Sam when Sam left hunting, he did cut himself off from that world. So Bobby and Dean had more time to bond as adults.

I believe Bobby liked and even loved Sam, but I never got the feeling that he was as close to Sam as he was Dean. I also don't remember Bobby talking to Sam the way he talked to Dean. He didn't show the concern for Sam that he did for Dean, IMHO.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-14 04:04
Ale, I agree. Bobby had to be completely honest about what he felt at THAT moment. SS was completely cold, didn't seem to care if he saw Dean again and made seriously morally questionable decisions. And the worst Bobby could say about him was that Dean was his favorite. Dean was MY favorite at that moment too. And I love both of them. Dean's feeling without the truth thing were much harsher than that-not that I blame him.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-12 11:04
This is how I view Sam and Bobby as well. It's not a bad thing that Bobby likes Dean better. The problem is that according to the show EVERYONE likes Dean better, or at least everyone who is allowed to live and/or appear in more than one episode. I don't count Ruby because she didn't LIKE Sam particularly, she was using Sam. But Jess, Madison, Amy all liked Sam better and died for it. Sheriff Jody has managed to stay around, even though she bonded with Sam, but she is MIA with no indication that she will ever come back. The show made it clear that Sam can't have Amelia in his life and have Dean in his life as well and Amelia is out.

Bobby liking Dean better was sad, but not devastating. Sam being written as completely isolated is where my issues come from.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-03-14 05:41
Quote:
Sam being written as completely isolated is where my issues come from.
exactly
Amy
# Amy 2013-03-11 09:39
I think that" they will never take you back if you fail" shouldn't include Dean. Sam's fight was with his Dad. His brother stormed off and left Dean too.

Leah, i'm confused by what you are trying to say here. Please correct me if i'm wrong but i interpret your statement as Sam's issues are with his dad so he isn't allowed to include Dean in them....BUT Dean is allowed adn has a right to dump his issues with John all over Sam.

Thats a double standard. And i dont know why everyone seems to think Sam shouldn't include Dean when his father told him never to cime back again; to never contact them again (which is implied). Deans radio silence - he even said he never called Sam) would have said a million things to Sam the least is that he agreed with John. To Sam it would be like his parents - and it is canon that Dean is also parentlike - both of them - stood together on that line. Sam never heard any differnt from Dean.

I just dont get why an 18 year old kid is not only supposed to understand the intriocaces of Deans adandonment issues but also tailor his entire life, way of thinking and feeling so as not to upset those said issues. Which according to s8 and sometimes even before Deans issues are liek Dr Jeckell adn Mr. Hyde. You never know when the issue is gonna appear or what will set it off. Or hhow he will act.

I mean dean sees Sam wanting normal as a huge betrayal of their brotherhood and proof positive that Sam doesn't love him and never has; then a mere handful of episodes later Dean is urging Sam to have that normal and its his deepest wish for him. And round and round it goes. As soon as Sam doesn't want something Dean is demanding that SAm go after it, that hes proud of him. But the moment Sam wants it....Dean is betrayed and everyone and their dry cleaner is a better brother then Sam was...ever.
LeahMae
# LeahMae 2013-03-11 13:34
Sorry Amy, respectfully I just don't see things the way you do (only some things, not all things). Sam also made a statement by leaving. Why would Dean assume that his brother even still wanted him in his life, he obviously hated the life they led. The phone communication is a two-way street. I was just saying that Sam did not have a big huge blowout with Dean before he left. He DID have one with John. My feeling was Dean didn't want Sam to go.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-11 14:02
I will say this about the phone communication. In Phantom Traveler, Dean gets a call from Jerry. He tells Sam that he doesn't know how anyone got that number because he just got it 6 months ago. This says a couple of things to me. Dean changed phone numbers at least once since Sam left AND he did it before he met up with Sam, because he wouldn't have had to tell Sam that he had changed his number recently if Sam had been there when he got the new phone. We know that Dean and John used aliases, and burner phones because they were using fake credit cards to pay for things. They didn't want to be tracked and arrested for credit card fraud, and keeping the same number would have been a way to trace them.

What this long monolog boils down to is that at some point Sam wouldn't have had a phone number to contact Dean or John with. Sam could have contacted John (Dean kept Johns old phones), but John was the one who said stay gone and Sam could easily have concluded that John would not tell Dean about any time Sam reached out to them. In any case, Sam knew John and Dean were moving around the country, using aliases and following the hunts they found. They were living off cell phones and motel phones neither of which was guaranteed to be a stable, constant number. Then there is the issue of remembering their phone numbers. With cell phones we get great contact and speed dial lists. My daughter has had her phone for 5 years now, but she's still speed dial 2 to me because she got it after I started relying on my cell. Sam may have been in the same situation. Bobby was no longer in contact with John or Dean, Pastor Jim may have been, but would he have given a message to Dean if John told him not to?

It is true the phone works both ways, but it is a lot harder to call someone who doesn't stay in one place for more than a month or two, changes is name like he changes his shirt, has been known to change cell phone numbers and often takes jobs where there may be poor to no cell reception. OTOH, Sam went to Stanford, stayed as Stanford, and used his own name openly. I do put the burden of keeping in touch on Dean, because it was much, much harder for Sam to reach Dean or John.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-11 14:17
ok, PERCY, you have a point there. But I think if Sam wanted to, he could have found his brother. No judgement here, I understand Sam's headspace at the time. Sometimes when there are big rifts in a family, it can take time and sometimes it never gets mended. I don't agree with the idea that Dean was there pushing Sam out the door at the time of the big blowout with John, though.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-11 14:34
I totally agree that Dean wasn't pushing Sam out the door. I also think that this was during Dean's "Dad can do no wrong" stage and that he probably didn't contact Sam because John had said no. Dean said specifically that John dropped by and watched Sam while he was at Stanford, but Dean never said that he, personally, made any attempt, so my impression was that Dean went along with John, even though he probably did not fully agree with him.
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-11 15:43
This has no real relevance either way, but it is interesting for JP's take on Sam and Dean's reasons for not speaking for 2/4 years:
Jared said at a con one time (way back, maybe season 2?) that he had a back story for why Sam left and it was that Sam had caught Dean sleeping with Sam's girlfriend and that was why they fell out, why he left home and why they didn't speak the whole time he was in college.
Of course that backstory changed when John appeared on the scene and the blowout became about him and Sam fighting over going to school, but it could have been the final straw for Sam to reject both of them?
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-03-14 05:44
Quote:
Jared said at a con one time (way back, maybe season 2?) that he had a back story for why Sam left and it was that Sam had caught Dean sleeping with Sam's girlfriend and that was why they fell out, why he left home and why they didn't speak the whole time he was in college. Of course that backstory changed when John appeared on the scene and the blowout became about him and Sam fighting over going to school, but it could have been the final straw for Sam to reject both of them?
eilf,I thought something like this might have happened after the djinn episode where they reference that girl.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-14 07:33
But do you guys really think Dean could do that? The Dean we've all come to know and love (at least some of us) over the years? I can understand why Jared thought of it as a reason in the first season but I doubt he'd feel the samec way now.

I can only speak for myself but I don't believe Dean could sleep with Sammy's girlfriend no matter how attractive she was. The Djinn episode was based on Dean's low opinion of himself. Don't get me wrong, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a mechanic at all. That's a solid job but Dean can't even imagine that he'd go to college or that he wouldn't be a drunk and general screw up. It also clued us in that he thinks hunting is the ONLY reason he and Sam are close. I can't take Dean's dream world as evidence of how Dean would behave.

Miles vary though. Dean just doesn't strike me as the type who would steal his little brother's girl.
Ale
# Ale 2013-03-14 12:05
I agree.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-03-14 12:49
lala2 ,My impression then and now when i watch is that Dean slept with Sam's girlfriend.It was a momentary discretion not a pattern.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-03-14 13:21
also lala2
I don't think it was as simple as Dean finding Sam's girlfriend attractive.Acco rding to my impression Dean is supposed to have slept with Sam's prom date and courtesy of lucifer we know who Sam's prom date was
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-14 13:32
AnonymousN, yes, that's what we're supposed to believe occurred in Dean's dream world. I never believed that ever occurred in real life. There has never been any indication that Dean had any momentary indiscretions w/anyone Sam fancied.

I apologize in advance if I'm misunderstandin g your comment. My main point is I don't believe Dean would ever sleep w/any of Sam's girlfriends in real life. I just don't see him behaving that way.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-14 13:57
lala, I thought those examples were to show how S&D came to the relationship they had in that Djinn version of their life. Not close. It was what might have happened had mom not been killed, hunting entered the picture and all the other susequent events that forged their strong bond.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-14 14:01
Leah, I agree w/you in that it was used to explain why S&D weren't close in the "dream world." It seems like - and I could be misinterpreting their comments - Eilf and AnonymousN were saying they thought Dean could have actually slept w/one of Sam's girlfriends in real life, that maybe Dean thought of that b/c it was something he had actually done.

I was just objecting to that idea b/c I don't believe Dean would have done that under any circumstances in "real" life.

My other point is the dream world is based off Dean who doesn't have a very high opinion of himself. He and Sam could have been close in the dream world, but Dean doesn't think they would be close w/o hunting. It's sad really. I don't think we can take that world as an actual look at how things would have turned out for them if Mary hadn't been killed by YED.

JMO though. Miles vary.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-14 14:19
lala, our milage doesn't vary as I am in complete agreement. :-)
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-14 14:22
Okay :-)
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-14 14:25
I guess I didn't make it clear that it was Dean's version of what might have happened if...

I also don't think Dean would do that to Sam in reality!
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-14 13:59
Although I would have agreed with you until the episode, Dean's reaction was either Yes, that sounds like me or Yes, that sounds right. Which indicates to me that Dean was perfectly capable of sleeping with someone Sam was dating and Dean knew it.

I don't know if he actually DID sleep with Sam's prom date on prom night, but Dean himself confirms that it was a likely scenario. Dean was 18, young and didn't always make the best decisions. And we know that he was a womanizer for many years and may not have thought that Sam was emotionally involved with his date or that the date wanted it, so why not.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-14 14:15
Or as lala says maybe Dean's low opinion of himself influenced his dream events. Who knows, but if Dean had actually done something along those lines it probably would have come up by now. I guess we are all capable of doing most anything under the right circumstances.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-14 14:17
Yes, you're right. I forgot about that, but again, Dean doesn't think too much of himself, and I think that's at play here. I don't know. I just can't picture Dean sleeping w/Sam's prom date. Even at 18. I just don't see him doing that.

I should also explain that I'm thinking of a "girlfriend." Most people take their boyfriends/girl friends to prom. So, if Sam really cared about this girl and Dean knew that, I can't see Dean turning around and having sex w/her. Now, I could possibly see Dean sleeping Sam's prom date if Sam just asked any random girl for whom Sam didn't have any feelings. He might do that.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-14 14:32
Dean wouldn't have been 18 he probably would
have been 21 or 22. Since prom is usually for jr
and sr and it was Sam's prom.

And he said that does sound like me. Again I
think that was influenced by his bad opinion of
himself.

I agree with Leah, if it had actually happened it
would have been thrown in Dean face at some
point.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-14 14:40
No, you're right. Percy mentioned Dean being 18, but he would have been 22. And Sam would have definitely said something by now about it if it had occurred.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-14 14:57
Quote:
And he said that does sound like me. Again I think that was influenced by his bad opinion of
himself.
This bugs me, a bit. This season I have been told that Sam has no right to doubt Benny because Dean's judgement is impeccable and Dean is a beacon of truth and light. Last season I was told that Amy had to die because Dean's judgement is impeccable and Dean is a beacon of truth and light. During seasons four and five I had to accept that Dean"s judgement of and unwillingness to forgive Sam was right because Dean's judgement is impeccable and Dean is a beacon of goodness and light. HOWEVER if Dean speaks to his OWN motivations and actions, Dean can not be trusted because Dean just judges himself too, too hard and besides Dean is a beacon of goodness and light and would never, ever do anything wrong. If I'm expected to believe that Dean is always right in his judgements of right, wrong, good bad, then I am darned well going to assume that his judgments about himself are right as well and although he may not have actually slept with the girl on that night, he thought about it and was willing to do so if the chance had come up. Considering she was possessed at the time, she may have offered and he may have taken her up on it. I'm not saying he did, I'm just saying that it's unfair to try and have it both ways. Dean is right when he sees flaws in everyone else, he is wrong when he acknowledges his own.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-14 15:17
I don't think that the writers OR the fans see Dean as a beacon of light that could never do anything wrong!! I also think that just because Dean thinks he might be capable of something doesn't mean he would actually do it. I think we all here see Dean's flaws but don't think he would do that to Sam. This is all hypothetical anyway who knows where the writers might go.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-03-14 15:35
Quote:
I think we all here see Dean's flaws but don't think he would do that to Sam.
No I don't see this.Sorry
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-14 16:04
If you are saying that Dean would do that to Sam, I disagree. If you are saying that we all don't see Dean's flaws then I also disagree. Thats ok. No need to be sorry. :-)
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-14 15:44
Percy, I don't see Dean as a "beacon of light" who can never do wrong, and I don't accept his judgment as fact. For instance, I completely disagree w/his belief that Sam was wrong to go to college. I hate that idea, and it bothers me even more that Kripke made Sam adopt the same warped thinking. There was nothing wrong w/Sam going to college, and episodes like DSOTM made me really ticked off at Dean!

And my problem w/Sam's attitude re: Benny had more to do w/Sam's prior beliefs/feeling s re: monsters than Dean's support of Benny.

That said, I have NEVER taken the events of the dream world of WIAWSB as fact. The character they have created in Dean is not one that I can see sleeping w/his little brother's girlfriend. I just can't picture him doing that.

As I said, I could only see him doing that if he knew Sam didn't care about the girl, and even then, it is a stretch for me to think Dean would intentionally sleep w/Sam's girlfriend/prom date.

I must say I am surprised that some feel he actually did do this. Even at the end of the episode, Sam doesn't validate that statement. There's no comment or joke about how Dean actually did sleep w/Sam's prom date. That never occurred.

Miles vary, but it's just not something I see Dean doing.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-03-18 02:29
Quote:
Even at the end of the episode, Sam doesn't validate that statement.
Sam is silent too many times so for me this means nothing and normally he lets bygones be bygones
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-18 12:45
Anon, we will have to agree to disagree b/c I don't think Dean ever slept with any of Sam's girlfriends, and I don't think he would ever do that.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-14 16:45
Percysowner, I don't think Dean is
infallible by any means. I didn't agree
with the Amy decision. I thought he was
being an ass to Sam this year about not
hunting. I think he has many, many, many
many flaws. I also think he is an
incredibly good person. So no, I don't
accept his negative view of his as
gospel. Anymore than I accept Sam's
view when he said he was the least of
them. These 2 are extremely hard of
themselves.

I didn't say I could never see Dean doing
anything to hurt Sam. In fact, I think he
has been much more deliberately hurtful
than Sam has ever been to him. I just
don't think he would risk his relationship
with his brother by hooking up with some
random chick.

Now maybe some out there see him as
flawless but I am not one of them. I love
him despite his worse flaws (like holding
on to past resentments) and because of
a few, like selling his soul for his brother
when he knew is was wrong.

Just like I love Sam despite many of his
flaws, like loving the powerful feeling the
DB blood gave him. And love him for a
few, like despite all the negatives
influences and all the reasons to go bad,
he was still trying to do the right thing
even as he made his worst mistake.

One of the reasons I love the show is that
they are flawed heroes. They aren't some
squeaky-clean-always-do-the-right-thing
guys. They both make mistakes.

I will agree there does seem to be a
certain segment of the fandom who see
Dean as this infallible hero. Who find a
way to justify his every decision and
comment, but that is not me or a lot of
other people. Even my sister who is Dean
girl to the core hated that he killed Amy.

There is not a consensus opinion that Sam
is always wrong and Dean is always
right regardless. And I don't think that is
the view the show wants to have. But how
fans choose to perceive. Now I do wish
they would give Sam more of a voice on
his views, so the arguments don't seem
so weighted in Dean's favor at times.
But I don't think it means they are
always saying Dean is right.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-14 16:53
Thank you Kelly, you said it perfectly.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-14 17:08
Ditto to pretty much all of that :-)
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-14 14:39
I agree he might under those circumtances. If Sam cared about someone though, I don't think he would ever do that.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-03-14 15:36
Quote:
If Sam cared about someone though,
Sorry .Again it is not okay even if Sam did not care.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-14 16:01
I agree AnonymousN that it is not ok either way. Just more conceivable I guess. But it was a dream that Dean (and his low self esteem) controlled. I agree with lala and others that Dean wouldn't go there.
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-14 14:31
Ok I really hope it was Sam's Prom night we are talking about and not Dean's. Which would make Dean 22ish yes? If Dean is 18 then either Sam goes in for older girls or ... Anyway, "That sounds like me" does seem to imply that Dean probably DIDN'T do that (otherwise he could have said something like 'oh that was always going to happen was it?') As an aside I have just asked an American what 'hooked up with' means exactly and he says it depends on the context so that also makes it less clear.
We have been expected to believe a lot about the characters this season that we were never expected to believe before so, at this stage I can't say definitively what Dean would or wouldn't have done given the opportunity, at 20 ish especially when he says he might have.
I hope this reads ok, it is getting a bit narrow.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-14 14:38
elif, yeah I've heard the term "hook-up" refer
to everything from hanging out to full on sex.
In my day (says the old person), it referred to
getting together later only. But I now it
usually refers to at least making out.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-14 14:46
It reads fine, Eilf. When people say someone "hooked up" w/someone else, they usually mean the two people had sex. It could also refer to making out, etc., but it is most commonly used in the context of sexual relations.

We are definitely speaking about Sam's prom night. I don't use this whacky season as a measure of anything when it comes to the characters. The previous seven years have established them well enough for me to be pretty confident in believing Dean would not sleep w/Sam's girlfriend. As I said, could he sleep w/a random girl Sam took to prom? Sure. But an actual girlfriend that for whom Sam had deep feelings? I don't think so.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-14 14:59
eilf, as an older American, I used to think it meant getting together. Now though hook-up=sex. And I guess though, getting together means =for sex. HA.
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-14 16:01
I suspect all us 'older' pick-a-national ity are much the same age :D
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-14 16:18
Oh no I am sure I am MUCH older than many of you.But I don't want to be typecast. Think Ellen but shorter, older, not as thin, slightly less feisty, and alive. Other than that we are identical. :D :D
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-14 16:20
I've picked an age I have decided to be and I am sticking with that :D It's working out ok for me so far.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-03-14 15:38
Quote:
"That sounds like me"
Or it can also mean it is like him but in the other universe or whatever the before jinn
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-14 13:49
lala2, I completely agree. I don't see OUR Dean ever doing that. I think that was a genie projection of Dean's bad opinion of himself-not something he'd actually do. And also of projection of what he thought he be if he didn't have a purpose in life, wasn't hunting, hadn't taken care of Sammy his whole life. Those things helped form Dean and I'm sure he realizes that.

I do think they originally wanted Dean to be the ultimate lovable rogue. Someone who would sleep with his brother's prom date, but you love him anyway because he is so charming. So I can believe they told Jared that and that is probably where they got the idea for that line in WIWSNB.

But I think they quickly changed their minds. And added a bunch more layers to Dean. By making him a lovable rogue -yes. But one whose life actually revolved around his love for his family. A guy who took care of Sam and tried to do everything he could for his father. But never felt like he did enough for either. Someone who needed his family around him, especially Sam.ETC. ETC. And to me THAT Dean would never sleep with Sam's prom date.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-14 14:05
Sorry Kelly, it takes me so long to post my comments that when mine pops in someone has said it better! :lol:
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-14 14:26
Leah, I do that all the time. In this case as soon as I
refreshed I thought . She said in one sentence what I
took 3 paragraphs to say. :D
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-14 14:35
Case in point see elif and my post above just now
. Great minds I guess. :D
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-14 14:06
Oh, I agree, Kelly. I'm sure Dean was supposed to be the type of guy who would sleep w/his brother's girlfriend, but that isn't who Dean turned out to be. He would never hurt Sammy in that manner, IMO.
Ale
# Ale 2013-03-14 15:34
Exactly, I can't see Dean sleeping with Jessica, for example.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-11 14:19
But all he was doing was going to college. I'm not sure why Dean would think that meant Sam didn't want to speak to him.

And I know it's a mistake, but according to the show, they did speak for the first two years. Something happened to cause them to stop speaking. I know Kripke meant to say four years, but he wrote "two" so that means they did still speak during Sam's Freshman and Sophomore years.

ETA: Percy raises a good point though. It probably would have been easier for Dean to get in touch w/Sam. That said, I stand by the thought that they had a blow-up/argumen t/disagreement which led to the radio silence for two years.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-11 14:44
The thing is, I don't know that they ever said that Sam went to college directly from High School or if Sam had actually gone to Stanford for 4 years. I know people who by taking AP tests and testing during the entry period who managed to get up to a years worth of credits by testing, not by taking the courses. I tested out of 2 semesters credit in Chemistry and one year in French and my English requirements. Sam could easily have gotten many semesters out of the way in Latin, Mythology, and possibly history and English, which could have cut his actual time in school to less than four years. Taking classes during summer can also get a student out more quickly, although scholarships never cover summer tuition.

It is possible that Sam was a late entry student and started when he was 20 instead of 18. I don't think that was intended and it was certainly never mentioned, but it is one way to reconcile the dates.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-11 14:56
I admit I am a little fuzzy on the pilot details and I can't rewatch it because I've loaned out my DVD's, oh well. I do miss having S1 &S2 around for a look- back. There has been more than once I've reached for them in the last few weeks! :sad:
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-11 15:20
Dean definitely mentions being 26-years old, which would make Sam 21-22. Sam is also in his senior year at Stanford and has applied to law schools.

Now, timing is off w/the months. I can't remember when I took the LSATs or even went on law school interviews, but Sam had already "aced" his LSATs by Halloween. That doesn't seem right to me, and it's not clear when Dean arrived. He says he's 26, but his birthday isn't until January, right?

Their real ages probably should have been 21 and 25.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-11 15:45
Sam is definitely 22, because they show the house fire and Dean taking Sam out and we know that Sam was 6 months old. Then the card says 22 years later. So Dean could have turned 26 in January and Sam would have turned 22 in May. The LSATs are given in June, October and December. Sam could have taken them in June, although I would have expected the results to have come out earlier than Halloween, but October is too quick a turn around. Many schools recommend taking the LSATs in June before your senior year, so you can get your applications in to prestigious schools early.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-11 17:17
I can't remember when I took my LSATs. It feels like forever ago!
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-11 15:02
You know, Percy, I always assumed he did b/c we know there is a 4-year age difference btw Sam and Dean. Dean mentions that he's 26-years old when Sam expressed surprise in the Pilotthat John allowed Dean to go on a hunt by himself , so that would make Sam 21-22 depending on the month. And also remember that Sam tells that kid from Bugs that something amazing is going to happen to him in a year (i.e., turning 18 and going to college). It implies that Sam went directly to college.

From all accounts, Kripke had intended them to not have spoken for the entire time Sam was at school. He said the two years thing was a goof/mistake. They were thinking of a 2-year college rather than a 4-year university.

I'm happy w/the goof though b/c I don't buy Sam and Dean ending all contact b/c Sam and John got in a fight. I don't think Sam would hold John's words against Dean, and I can't see Dean ending all contact w/his little brother b/c John was ticked. I could see them getting into an argument a few years later (i.e., probably hunting related) and then ending all contact w/each other.

But that's JMO.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-14 03:56
lala2, I agree. I took the mistake as a happy accident. Because it made more sense to me if Dean would have checked in with Sam at some point.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-03-18 02:25
Quote:
It takes great strength to pursue your dreams when the family you comes from sees no value in them. It takes a lot to break from someone as controlling as John. Going out on the world on your own knowing they will never take you back if you fail (if you go stay gone) takes great courage and strength.
Perfectly said and the reason why Sam was my instant favouriteQuote:
I never quite understood Krissy being so grateful to Dean when Sam was the one who answered her call, Sam was the one who went to rescue her father and Sam was the one who put his life on the line to buy her father more time. But as you say, this is result of writing that sometimes doesn't make much sense.
Agree
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-14 03:12
Sorry, I took so long responding, Amy and Percysowner, real life is kicking my ass. I guess the difference is in our interpretation of abuse. I can maybe see where you are coming from that Sam’s CHARACTER was abused by the writers. In terms, that he has taken a lot of hits of the years. But so has Dean. For that matter, so has John, so has Castiel, so has Bobby. But, to me, that is in no way the same a someone who can not stand up for themselves, because they have been beaten down.

John was a hardass dick. I don’t think I can ever forgive him for what he did to BOTH boys when he said that to Dean. And I agree not at least saying good-bye to Sam makes him an asshole. But the only abuse you can definitively lay at his feet is neglect. He was shown to be absent a good portion of the time. But if anything Sam was less “abused” by that then Dean because at least he had Dean. Being an asshole and a bad father does not necessarily translate into abuse. And IMO, John was a jerk but not abusive.

Castiel did technically abused Sam by tearing down the wall, but that does not have the same connotation as being abused. There was never any sign that Sam had this beat down reaction, he fought his way out of his own mind and then showed up and stabbed Cas. Bobby is a COMPLETE stretch, in everyway. You may not feel their relationship was close but how can you possibly describe it as abusive. Even if he did “turn away” which is not out I saw it. That is not abusive. Or even neglectful. That is someone walking out of his house to his yard. By no stretch is that abusive.

Dean is the hardest. He has said horrible things to Sam and the 2 worst were said when he was not under the influence of anything other than anger. But don’t consider words shouted in an argument as abuse. Or if they are Sam has been abusive too. People who love it other do hurt each other at times, but that doesn’t mean it is abusive.

And I’ll agree Dean’s attitude towards things like Sam going to school is a little bipolar. BUT I don’t think that is THAT usually. People opinions change all the time. And one moment he could admire Sam for do it and the next be completely pissed at him for leaving. Both can be true. But I thought the first season did a pretty good job of showing the push and pull of hunting life vs college without making him seem bad for choosing college. I felt both Dean and John were wrong in trying to keep him in, even if my heart broke for Dean not wanting to let him go. (John didn’t have the same effect, I’ll admit) IMO it really wasn’t until S5 that Sam was really shown in a bad light for going to college. I not sure that was the writers intention though. Like DSotM, I think we were supposed to understand why Dean was hurt but not see “Sam's independent nature as wrong/bad”, necessarily. Unfortunately, once again, Sam’s defense of himself was fairly weak. I’m assuming because if it was too good, we wouldn’t believe it would cause Dean to become disillusioned.

I wish that they would have Sam defend himself better in a lot of these situations but someone being pissy with you for several weeks and yelling at you every once in a while is NOT an abusive relationship.
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2013-03-06 04:28
lala2
I so agree with you.
I think Carver had many more exciting ways to take season eight. I agree about the story-arc needing to be personal to the brothers too.
X
Instead of giving us more brother conflict it would have been more of a twist giving us brothers good with each other, for as you pointed out the brother conflict has already been done in nearly all past seasons.
The show works best when the boys show their caring love for one another. That's how the show was originally designed by Kripke and it still works best.
X
I have only seen the first ten episodes once and have no desire to see them again but I believe the ep you refer to is Southern Comfort.
A bad episode even in the details, for even I who live in Europe know that in the American civil war, brothers would find themselves on opposite sids and yet for Sam and Dean it was news.
X
As for Carver, originally I was happy to hear that he was taking over because I ws expecting 'AVSChristmas' type of episodes and perhaps the great delusion has made me dislike this season so much.
X
I know nothing of what goes on behind the scenes in a tv show but it does seem that Mr. Carver is rather absent. Should he not at least have written another episode or be more present in explaining the season.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-05 13:05
I don't know about vastly superior, but I will say that if they don't fix the Sam storyline, I will have problems rewatching this season. And I can't say that about 6 or 7 at all.
st50
# st50 2013-03-05 13:11
Kelly -
Exactly.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-05 16:06
For me, the season has been ruined even IF they fix the Sam storyline.

Assuming there's some grand explanation for Sam's OOC behavior and decisions in the first half of the season that we learn in the last part of the season (which I'm still very doubtful about), I will never understand why Sam had to be trashed for their huge twist. Why did we have to spend the majority of the season thinking Sam couldn't care less about Dean? Why not show Sam dreaming of a time when he was searching or doing something to help Dean, and when he wakes up, he can't be sure what that was: a dream or a memory? That would be a way to give the audience a hint that all is not what it seems. What was the point of leaving it at Sam thinking Dean was in another town eating a taco? Why were we led to believe that Sam couldn't even be bothered to investigate Dean's disappearance? Why? What did that do for the story except alienate and frustrate viewers?

Frankly, I am sick of Sam the "horrible, bad" brother. We've had some version of that story since S4. The first half of this season will always leave a bitter taste in my mouth b/c it was completely unnecessary, IMO. And it doesn't help that none of the episodes have any re-watchable quality to me. I have no desire to see Sam stare off into space and dream about the useless Amelia. I'd re-watch BB, but Benny has no point on the show so what is the point? Haha!

The season has been somewhat salvaged to me in the last four-five episodes, but they can't make up for the first 11, which were awful!
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-05 18:57
Hi lala, I again agree with you about the first half of the season but if the show has been trying to show Sam as a "horrible, bad brother" since S4 it just hasn't worked on me and so many, many others! I adore Sam and I am not alone. The Sam haters on other sites can marinate in their own toxic juices for all I care :-)
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2013-03-06 03:37
I have to agree with you, Leah. I'm also one of those people who've never, ever seen Sam as the bad horrible brother. Even through his worst parts of season 4, my heart broke for him.
So if they're trying to make him out to be that, epic fail for writers as far as I'm concerned.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-06 09:08
Leah, I have never viewed Sam as the "evil, bad" brother either but, sadly, I can actually see why others do.

In my opinion, since S4, it takes work and effort to know and understand Sam b/c the show doesn't make it easy. I like Sam so I try to understand his motives, but Show doesn't make this easy. Some people are just going to watch the show and accept it as fact, which wouldn't be good for Sam in many instances.

I use S4 as an example b/c I can honestly say that Sam frustrated me the most that season. Actually, that was the only season he frustrated me. I was someone who just got online during that season and genuinely liked BOTH brothers. I still do by the way :-)

I never came from a place of hating Sam, but I just remember thinking Sam was a real jerk during S4. I thought his speech to Dean in S&V was especially cold. Over on Supernatural.tv , my first post was about whether Sam really cared about Dean at all. That's how that episode left me feeling. I actually wanted Dean to get his in car and just leave Sam in the dust w/his precious demon. The Ruby association. The blood drinking. The lies. The strangulation. None of it got a proper explanation or apology, IMO. Yes, I am one who hated Fallen Idols.

Like I said earlier, I didn't notice it in S4, but in retrospect, I feel Sam's POV was not properly explored during that season. Sam is a main character. If a main character is going to go "evil," then some real time should be spent on that character's perspective so a portion of the audience isn't left despising him. The writers even admitted to "telling Sam's story in the background." What does that even mean? I'm sorry but Sam is making decisions that most don't understand or don't agree with but they thought it was best to "tell his story in the background." Huh? What type of sense does that make? I love Sam and even I left s4 w/no real understanding of why he did the things he did. And then it was never, IMO, properly addressed in S5. Like I said, I loathed and despised FI.

Sam took a huge hit w/a good portion of the audience in S4 from which he has NEVER fully recovered, IMO. Because Sam's perspective was never clear, a lot of people started to think he didn't care about Dean as much as Dean cared about him. So, it doesn't help that we're shown that Sam didn't really care enough to look for Dean. I'm sorry but that's how I see the story Carver has chosen to tell. I can't see it any other way because an actual story hasn't been told. I don't know why Sam thought Dean was dead. I don't know if Sam actually thought Dean was dead or what. I've just been given the bare bones of the story. From appearances, it looks like Sam just didn't care enough to look. The nonchalant reunion. The indifference. The quiet plea that Dean just go hunt by himself. Because all of that is OOC for me, I've chosen to just ignore it.

Others won't though. They already see Sam as not caring as much about Dean as Dean cares about him, and this horrible plot just helps prove that for them. That's the problem. Now, I know Sam loves Dean just as much as Dean loves him, but if I were waiting for this show to prove it some grand way, I'd be waiting a long time. I just believe it. Others want to see it, and Show doesn't provide them w/many opportunities IMO.

So, while I never began hating Sam or even thought he was evil/bad, I recognize that Show doesn't paint him in a positive light at times. I really can't argue w/anyone who had issues w/Sam in the beginning of this season or S4.
st50
# st50 2013-03-06 09:19
I, for one, never had issues with Sam in season 4. He wasn't evil/bad. He was desperate. Driven.
I may not have liked what he was doing, but I never doubted his motivation. It was just more of the same - obsessive, focussed, gotta-make-it-r ight-at-any-cos t Sam.
Who is Season 8 Sam? This Sam, I don't recognize, and I never saw where/when he changed.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-06 10:26
See, I thought his motives changed with the wind.

He told Ruby he didn't want to be doing this when he was older. He told Chuck, he had to do it because Dean was too weak. Again, I never saw any evidence of Dean's alleged weakness, but miles vary. He told Dean he wanted to do something good w/his DB-given powers, and that he had to do what he was doing so he could kill Lilith.

Sam was all over the place, which would have been fine, IMO, if the writers had acknowledged that. I just felt like depending on the episode, Sam had a new motivation. Plus, I could never really get over the Ruby association so S4 Sam never makes much sense to me. I honestly can't imagine him speaking to her again after her lies were exposed. Kripke really didn't sell me on that point.

I do agree that S4 Sam is recognizable. Early S8 Sam is a completely different character. Totally unrecognizable IMO.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-08 21:16
Hi lala, I somehow missed this. That was a great post. Thank you. I didn't really get involved online until the last few years and was unaware and kind of shocked about the people who bash the characters. The Sam vs Dean stuff that is unending. I couldn't understand why everyone didn't love both of the characters the way I do. I always felt I understood the characters enough to allow for their flaws. But I do now realize that when a character is painted in a bad light and when there is little clarification why, that some fans can used those things to hate a character. I have an unyielding belief in the brothers love for one another but the show at times makes it real hard to defend them sometimes. They most definitely have portrayed Sam in an unfavorable light. Dean hasn't come off perfect (even though some feel he is always shown as never wrong) and I have seen a fair share of Dean haters on other sites. However Sam's character was shortchanged in a lot of ways this year, absolutely no doubt.
Super
# Super 2013-03-06 04:10
lala2,

You've summed up brilliantly how this season will always feel for me, reveal or not. Maybe I will feel a bit better knowing that this was all "supposed" to be this way, after the maybe-reveal has come to fruition, but it will not make this season great for me because, as you said, Sam character was damaged really bad, for no seeming reason. And it wasn't just the character, but his essential core was damaged, his love for his brother.

Atleast in season 4, they had a story to tell and a reason for making Sam distant and "unlikeable" (not for me, I always could see where his head was at and I never questioned his loyalty and love for Dean, unlike this season), and it worked. I honestly think that they did an amazing job of ripping them apart, and then just never brought them really together again. Alot was swept under the rug and then just things kept on piling on top of it all, The Apocalypse, The Cage, The SoullessSam, The Wall, The Hellucinations. .. Nothing was resolved.

Then came this season, and they started it with the biggest WTF known to man (well, me, atleast). Sam not looking for Dean. That's a really big bump to get over. To rationalize. And then Sam not even looking for Kevin. Just leaving him to Crowley. That was as equally big WTF for me aswell. On top of that, Sam was shown to be mostly just angry, pissy and whiny at Dean, and I don't understand WHY. Why was he portrayed like this eppie after eppie? Why make us question the very base this show was built around, their love for one another? And I can't think of an other reason than to create drama and conflict because that's how they get new viewers, I guess. Atleast that's a good way to alienate an old viewer, me.

I'm glad that they brothers are getting along again, and I'm glad that I can feel the love and the bond that they have again, but it still feels a little fake, in a way. The rift is still there, IMO.

But yeah, good post.
st50
# st50 2013-03-06 08:51
Quote:


Sam character was damaged really bad, for no seeming reason. And it wasn't just the character, but his essential core was damaged, his love for his brother.
Super,
Every word of your post rang true, for me. That's exactly how I see it.
But the part I've quoted above is the absolute bottom line.
As I've said before, where the brother-bond has been strained in seasons past, it's always been there. Carver took it and smashed it. He made Sam turn away.

Imagine the heart of the show - the obsessive love between these brothers - as a mirror. Carver threw that mirror on the floor to just see how many different pieces he could make.. But it wasn't a mirror anymore, so he had to repair it.
Now, all the pieces have been put back together with glue, and the mirror is back on the wall, but when you look into it, the image you see is warped. Imperfect. It just doesn't reflect a true image anymore.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-06 09:47
Thanks, Super! I must say that S4 was hard for me as a Sam fan. I couldn't quite get a handle on Sam or his actions. Honestly, I never found it quite believable that he hooked up w/Ruby again. Yes, I know he was depressed, but I guess IKWYDLS didn't do it for me. It didn't really help to explain Sam or the Ruby connection. It wasn't like TMWWBK, which I felt did an excellent job at putting Castiel's motives in perspective. We didn't get that in S4, IMO. Ruby had lied to Sam the previous year. She gleefully laughed about wishing she could be in Hell when Dean's flesh was burned from his body! I can't say I ever understood why Sam would ever speak to her again regardless of his overwhelming depression.

I feel like Kripke's original story got cut off b/c of the writers' strike so he decided to proceed w/it anyway in the new season, and he really didn't care how that impacted Sam. I feel Sam was written for the plot w/r/t Ruby in S4 rather than being written as he would actually behave. Sam was twisted, IMO, to fit the Ruby connection rather than Kripke thinking of an entirely new way for Sam to go "evil." None of the other PKs needed a Ruby to do anything they did, so why did Sam? Sam could have just gone "evil" on his own!

So, I must admit that I found Sam unlikeable in S4 - not all of S4 though. He was, IMO, a straight up jerk in S&V and WTLB. He was constantly lying to Dean. He was very arrogant. It also didn't help that the writers didn't write Dean as having any noticeable problems or issues, so when Sam would spout off about Dean being too weak, I was left confused. When was Dean shown to be weak? Maybe I could have understood Sam's position a little more if Dean had actually been portrayed as weaker, more reserved, less willing to fight but that's not what I saw. Wanting to think of a plan of attack rather than barreling headfirst w/o a plan does not convey weakness or fear or whatever Sam thought was allegedly ailing Dean in S4.

As I write about this, I guess I have to say that whatever they were going for in S4 didn't work for me. Hmm . . . I've always loved S4. I still do, but the Sam stuff never sat well w/me.

I couldn't agree more w/you that Kripke never fixed the brothers. I think that's largely b/c he never really focused on Sam's POV in S5. Sam was remorseful in episode 1. He was itching for DB in episode 2. He left the hunt in episode 3. He returned to the hunt and made a crappy speech in episode 5. And that was it. Done & Dusted. I don't care for S5; it's not one I re-watch. I felt Sam's redemption wasn't told very well. Other than two episodes (1 and 5), we never really, IMO, get any more insight on how Sam felt about what he did in S4 or how he feels about anything until the end of the season. It was choppy and uneven. I kept waiting for Sam to question his decisions as a result of S4 or show some impact from what he did, but that never happened. I just wanted more is all I can say.

In the end, Kripke broke something spectacularly well as you said that he didn't quite know how to fix. Sera was getting there to fixing it, but Carver blew all of that out of the water w/his crappy storyline for Sam this season.

You're absolutely correct in how Sam was portrayed at the beginning. I haven't seen such a lackluster reunion hug in my life, and it was Sam that was ruining it. Jared is a great actor, so I know he must have been directed to downplay it. Sam just didn't seem all that jazzed that Dean was back. If he thought Dean were dead, wouldn't he be more happy? Ditching Kevin was also horrible. Having Sam say he just drove around in the Impala until he hit a dog and met a girl!?!?!?!? WHAT!?!?!? Seriously!?!? On a show where the brothers have been known to DIE for each other, Carver had to know this tale would trash Sam in people's eyes. I guess he just didn't care. Nothing can make this better in my eyes. I just see it as Sam being screwed over again by the writers.

I would disagree that the bond we're seeing now feels fake. I understand why you feel that way though. For me, nothing about the first 11 episodes felt real or genuine. I felt like I wasn't even watching Supernatural. The past 5 episodes (starting w/ATGB) have felt like Supernatural to me. Even the brothers' fights have felt more real and genuine. As you said, I feel the love and bond again. The brothers were fine at the end of S7. ATGB is where the story should have picked up. The boys didn't need to be at odds or in conflict again.

I'm having a snow day (woo-hoo) so I'm rambling! Simply put, it's easier for me to disregard the first half because it didn't feel real to me. What we're seeing now feels real.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-06 12:08
I was able to understand Sam in season four, but it all came from my own head because I liked Sam because Lord knows the writers gave us nothing to hang a hat on. I may be the only person who didn't hate Sam in S&V. I've always gone with if Dean gets a pass for trying to chop Sam into little tiny pieces because of the Siren, then Sam gets a pass on saying mean things to Dean because of the Siren. Plus, I have been assured that when Dean said things under the influence of the penny he really didn't mean it and I should not hold any of it against him. So the same latitude goes for Sam under the influence of both demon blood AND the Siren. Plus for all he called Dean weak, he NEVER attacked Dean about what he really felt guilty about, torturing people in Hell. He was irked by Dean feeling guilty about it, but he didn't blame him for breaking in Hell. At the same time, Dean was poking Sam about being a monster and sleeping only with monsters (Hi Jess, you just got grouped with Ruby) even before he was under the influence.

I totally agree that Sam's redemption was botched. I don't know why, but what Sam went through in seasons 4 and 5 seemed to be completely unimportant to the writers.

I wish I could dismiss the first half of the season, but I can't. My biggest reason is because it has left me uncertain as to when the writers are going to decide to trash Sam's character again, make us see Benny the better brother and have Cas return to calling Sam an abomination. With the total OOCness of Sam and the lack of brotherly bond, I just don't trust the writers. They will have to give some explanation for the first half of the season in order for me to feel like I can trust this team again.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-08 16:28
Percy, I give both Sam and Dean a pass for trying to murder each other in S&V. That was all the Siren. They wouldn't have acted that way but for the Siren.

That said, I don't think the Siren influenced their words, and in my opinion, Sam's were especially harsh and cruel. I haven't seen the episode in a long time but Dean just mentions that Sam has changed and keeps lying to him. I thought those were legitimate concerns. Sam, on the other hand, called Dean weak, scared, and he "boo-hooed" Dean's Hell feelings. Sam was really harsh with Dean. I feel the same way about Dean's words in SC. They were unnecessarily harsh and OTT.

Now, I don't think one can never have negative thoughts about a relative but the problem with S&V and SC is neither was properly addressed. The words were just left hanging in the air. I did wonder if Sam cared about Dean in Season 4. I do wonder if Dean actually thinks Sam has been deceiving him since the first season. If the issues were actually acknowledged and addressed, it wouldn't be so damaging.
nightsky
# nightsky 2013-03-06 13:03
Quote:
For me, nothing about the first 11 episodes felt real or genuine. I felt like I wasn't even watching Supernatural. The past 5 episodes (starting w/ATGB) have felt like Supernatural to me. Even the brothers' fights have felt more real and genuine. As you said, I feel the love and bond again.
I absolutely agree. It is weird, isn't it? I don't know exactly where to draw the dividing line, but the latter episodes do have a completely different feel to them than the earlier episodes. It's like the writers finally got themselves organized, or into a groove, or maybe Carver finally felt confident in a plan after starting his new job as showrunner. Everyone needs time to adjust to a new job, so I'm willing to give him a pass if the quality we've seen lately of addressing the boy's relationship continues from here on. I'd like explanations of the first half of the season, but at a minimum, make it good going forward.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-08 08:51
For me, it's like Carver suddenly remembered what the show is about (the bond btw two brothers) and what works best for the show (writing a strong brother relationship and mytharc that centers around the brothers).

The show finally seems to be on the right track. The season will never be great, to me, because of how abysmal the first 11 episodes were.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-06 09:57
Yeah, I wonder about Carver. He may have written AVSC and MS but he also gave us this crappy first half of a season. I think we've given him too much credit. He was just a writer. Someone else probably thought of those ideas and told him how it had to be executed.

I've also read about him being pretty absent from the show. He's written no episodes from what I read online and only given a few interviews. Is he still working on Being Human? Maybe that's the show he really cares about.

I wish Kripke would return to finish off his show.
Alice
# Alice 2013-03-08 13:10
From what I hear, Jeremy Carver has not been absent from this show at all. He's a major presence in the writer's room and controlling vision. He's just not someone that is very visible to fans, unlike Kripke who was always out there. He loves being a behind the scenes guy, just like Edlund. He's also giving writing opportunities to his writers. Showrunning takes an awful lot of effort and time.

Kripke won't return. Beside the fact that Revolution is taking off and needs him, he just doesn't have the creative vision for the show anymore. It wore him down, and he would have ended the show if Sera Gamble hadn't taken over. As much as he loves the show, his time is done.

You've also got to understand something, which is the sad reality of network television. Once a show gets into it's seventh season and beyond, the network and studios have made their money and it's time to put the show on autopilot. Supernatural is in auto pilot mode now, riding out its time the best it can until no one wants to do it anymore. Creative decisions are now under far less scrutiny.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-08 13:39
I certainly don't expect Kripke to come back. He's having another success with Revolution and I can understand his being burnt out on Supernatural. Since I'm personally not happy with much of this season, I'm a little disappointed that Jeremy Carver is a major presence, because that makes me realize that this vision is here to stay. Which is great for those who enjoy the show, but less so for me.

I have been pleased with the episodes separately written by Dabb and Loflin they work better apart than together for me. So that was a not bad change, IMHO. I do understand the autopilot idea, although it is sad to see on this show for me. But it is what it is and I will set my sights accordingly.

I will give Sera Gamble a big thanks for being what kept the show on the air. I did enjoy her vision more than many and I appreciate that she stepped up and kept Supernatural going under the difficult circumstances of having to reboot a show that had finished its first mytharc.
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2013-03-08 15:02
Replying to Alice.
X
What you say is true, the show is in its eighth year and its cycle is coming to an end but I think the network people should keep in mind that SPN is still their third highest-rated show and any new shows that they have aired recently have ranged from disappointing to very disappointing rating- wise, some have even been cancelled, see Emily Owens.
X
SPN relatively speaking is still a goose that lays the golden eggs for a small network like CW and I think they should take good care of it for the next couple of years and keep it to the highest standard possible.
It could still give them many satisfactions.
Alice
# Alice 2013-03-08 15:21
You're preaching to the choir here! I do agree, they should. That doesn't mean they do.

To be honest, and I'm only talking from a network business sense (which is boring), a show in its 8th season has a built in audience. They aren't going to get a ton of new viewers. Sure, some are now finding the show thanks to syndication on TNT, but it's not because they're watching on The CW. The object is to get the audiences that are tuning in for Supernatural to come watch their other shows.

So yes, they have a vested interest in keeping the show entertaining. But, it's not a priority. They have to do just enough to make sure people aren't leaving in droves. And they're not. Ratings are up this year. When you count in DVR and online viewing, Supernatural's audience is just as big as it was in season two. So, if the network thinks Jeremy Carver is screwing up, they aren't seeing it where it counts, which is ratings and budget.
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2013-03-08 15:48
Yes, unfortunately networks aren't charitable institutes and if Carver is delivering the goods while keeping to the budget , then I can understand them being okay with what he turns out.
X
My question is this though; does it not take the same time and effort to turn out a bad episode such as the James/dog one and a better episode like the grampa Henry one.
If they both cost the same in time and money why not go for the better choice whenever one can?
X
[ The object is to get the audiences that are tuning in for Supernatural to come watch their other shows. ]
Thing is though it seems that the viewers are tuning in for Supernatural and not for other shows, excluding of course The Vampire Diaries and Arrow, and I think SPN should get more kudos for achieving that.
X
Then if new shows are going to last the space of a few weeks, what's the point? Isn't it more logical to keep an older but more secure show on the air?
X
I know nothing about what happens behind the scenes of a tv show, so put my silly questions down to naivity! :)
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-08 18:01
Oh, I can see it's on autopilot. It's really a shame b/c the show could have gone out on top instead of fizzling out.

Oh well!

That's JMO, by the way. The show has seen its glory days, which are long gone. I'm just taking it one episode at a time at this point.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-09 00:46
Quote:
You've also got to understand something, which is the sad reality of network television. Once a show gets into it's seventh season and beyond, the network and studios have made their money and it's time to put the show on autopilot. Supernatural is in auto pilot mode now, riding out its time the best it can until no one wants to do it anymore. Creative decisions are now under far less scrutiny.
Alice, I'm really torn on this statement. (I might even completely opposed depending on the rest of the season). I do have huge issues with the first half of the season and honestly I will worrying about JC if the Sam issues aren't resolved.

BUT I do think the second half the are taking chances in a good way. Most show this age, either have a keep things at a simmer and eventually just petered out because they stopped taking risks, in order to keep their audience. OR they go the opposite route and throw every weird idea out there and pull a bunch stunts in orders just to one up what they've done in the past. And while in S6 they have done some out there episodes and some risky things, they were firmly grounded in the show's reality. And the back them up.

A case for both signs of show fatigue could be made in S7. The Leviathan were definitely a way of trying to one up their other foes. And they didn't push the characters as much as I would have like BUT neither things was show ending or really even damaging long term.

And ever since Henry Winchester popped out of the closet. There seems to be a indication of a real story plan that they are planning on running with for at least a couple seasons. And the risks seem considered not just "lets see if this works", like other shows have done. I truly think these next seasons could be fantastic not just a show on autopilot.

-They just have to fix Sam's storyline. :D
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-06 10:01
I believe I read on here that someone from the show said the figure was Don. I know I read that on a message board somewhere.
E
# E 2013-03-05 18:53
Hey, no worries st50... I had just heard through the grapevine that things were in a pretty big disarray when SG left the show; problems with scheduling, bugets etc....if you look back at season 7 especially the episodes film dates and their air dates were running VERY close together, all of which I am sure made it harder for JC to take over. And he wasn't really brought in until just before Comicon as he was finishing up with another show. That's not much time to construct and implement an entire season's (and perhaps multiple seasons) worth of story arc. Maybe it was just too much to pull together. Although, things seems to be going much more smoothly this year as near as I can tell.

And for me, I felt Sam and Dean loved one another despite their fighting. I still could see it through their arguments, although I know a lot of fans couldn't.
E
# E 2013-03-05 19:00
Oh, wow! I posted this response to st50 before I saw that my original comment had kicked off a big sub-thread. :oops:

Um, I guess the mess that I was thinking about was more behind the scenes at least as season 6 was concerned. I LOVED soulless Sam btw. I did think season 7 was a muddled, poorly paced mess with a villain that was not that villainous, threatening or remotely personal to the boys, so essentially I didn't really care about them. So far, I like the basic plot ideas for season 8 much better, and feel that the boys are more invested in the quest and in each other (at least now) which makes me more invested in them. Still, there is stuff that NEEDS to be resolved, but I think (hope) it will be!
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-05 19:37
Hi E, hope you don't feel too 'piled on' :-) apologies for my part anyway ...
E
# E 2013-03-05 21:54
no probs :D
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-05 19:30
Oh you were speaking to a bts mess. Yeah that may be I haven't heard anything either way really.
E
# E 2013-03-05 21:53
Yeah I was speaking to BTS mess rather than onscreen mess, I didn't really make that clear though. oops. Season 6 wasn't such a mess on screen and I do agree that season 7 ended with a clear direction implied, one that JC decided not to use but the season itself was all over the place and....well... boring :sad:.

Oh well....the promo for the next eppie looks fantastic..mayb e we'll get some answers about some things?
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-05 22:18
E, It DOES look really good. And I'm feeling hopeful right now so I'm sure they're going to fix the problems with this season.
st50
# st50 2013-03-06 09:24
Ah. Sorry, E.
I didn't know anything about the behind the scenes stuff. I guess I can't really comment on that stuff.
Sorry.
Alice
# Alice 2013-03-08 13:49
Actually, Sera Gamble went over budget in season six and because of that, she lost a lot of her day to day showrunning duties to Robert Singer. She was left in charge of the creative vision and scripts. I think the whole experience must have taken the wind out of her sail, because by midseason the writing on the wall was clear, she wasn't working out in that role either. She was ready for something different. This is not unlike what Eric Kripke felt like after the end of season 5. He had enough.

She didn't leave the show a mess, and Jeremy Carver was brought in before the end of last season, not Comic Con. He was brought in right around the time they started breaking in scripts for season 8, which is usually around April. Early April is when the final episode of the season is filmed, so the scripts for the season are long done.

If anything, Jeremy Carver runs a tighter ship. The scripts are getting done earlier, which gives them more time for revisions. Trust me, there have been revisions. Everyone behind the scenes really believes there is better control in the writers room this season.

Sorry about jumping in on this side topic, but I think a lot of what goes on behind the scenes is misunderstood.
E
# E 2013-03-08 20:26
I knew that there was something about SG and budgets; but this kind of makes me a little sad. Maybe showrunning doesn't play to her strengths? She's a great, great writer though.

Thanks for the update about when JC came on board, I had gotten the impression (maybe from him, actually) that he didn't have much time to get things together before filming started. Still, from April, the end of season 7, to July when filming starts in season 8 doesn't seem like that long.. but then again, I am not a writer, so maybe this is normal?

I just get a sense in interviews etc.. that J&J seem much happier and more energized this year than in season 7 especially. Maybe I am projecting, but this is a feeling that I have gotten from them this year.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-05 13:03
I agree with you, E, but I don't kinda too. I definitely agree with you that without a big reveal, this season is going to be extremely disappointing. The first half the season I'm just going to have to try to ignore (which I suck at) so I'm BEGGING them to have big reveal. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE. If I had any money I would try to bribe them into having a reveal. And I still in a hopeful phase so I expect them to.

But I don't think Gamble left it in a unrecoverable mess going into S8. Dean was in Purgatory, but he handled that beautifully. And Bobby is dead. Which hasn't been fixed. But most of my problems with this season stem from this season. Specifically, the whole Sam didn't look for Dean and got a cranky girlfriend storyline. So I don't think that can be laid at Gamble's feet.
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-05 13:07
Quote:

And Bobby is dead. Which hasn't been fixed.
Only in Supernatural does this sort of thinking work .... :D
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-05 13:09
I know, right?
st50
# st50 2013-03-05 13:12
Quote:
Quote:

And Bobby is dead. Which hasn't been fixed.
Only in Supernatural does this sort of thinking work .... :D
:D
One of the many reasons I love this show. And its fans. :lol:
E
# E 2013-03-05 22:15
grrrr Bobby dying.... :o hated that whole thing despite the brilliance of "Death's Door". And then double hated ghost Bobby. Jared made an interesting comment on his twitter regarding that episodes complimenting Jim Beaver on his outstanding work and indicating that a character that is killed off so beautifully should just quietly go and not "come back." I think it was his way of indicating that he did not agree with the ghost Bobby storyline.
Artsydenise
# Artsydenise 2013-03-05 08:56
You pointed out everything so well- just what I've been thinking.

Briefly, I wondered a lot about Sam's year alone. Personally , in my head canon, for the longest time i thought Sam had a mental breakdown and the whole relationship with Amelia was just in his head. Maybe that he even knew Amelia, but she was just another mental patient in the hospital he was in- but he hallucinated all the scenes with her ( the relationship, moving in with her, etc) .

After all, his time with her was never shown to be a year long- plus the "dreamy" quality to all their memories, etc. Not to mention the fact that her story seemed disjointed and didn't make sense. And Dean never had any contact w/her- so it was as if she could have existed only in Sam's mind.

But then, somehow they made her 'real', although in my mind she's still mostly a figment of Sam's imagination. I think it would have been more interesting if they'd have done it my way :)
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-03-06 22:39
I also had this thought for a lot of the first half of the season - that Amelia was in Sam's head - but after the episode 'Citizen Fang', I gave up on this idea.

I'm not so sure now. After reading all the comments and speculation about what is to come, I'm wondering if perhaps this is still a possibility. Isn't it strange that no-one else (besides Sam) has seen or spoken to Amelia this whole time?

Perhaps he is still struggling with mental issues due to the hellucinations. Maybe he wasn't completely healed by Cas.

The longer the season goes on, the more I think that nothing is as it seems. PERCEPTION. This is what Jeremy Carver promised would be the key element of the season. So I'm very hopeful that there will be a few 'Oh my God' moments in the last 7 episodes... and some things will start to make sense :-)
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-06 23:06
I would love nothing more than Amelia being a figment of Sam's imagination. Something his mind created in order to deal with Dean's disappearance and probable death. But although no one else saw her without Sam, WE saw her enter the motel room, which I think makes her real. If they had left that shot out, or even made it look like Sam was thinking that it was how she would look, I would buy that she wasn't real, but sadly, I think she was.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-07 06:32
Sadly, I agree with Percy. I think Amelia is real.

I agree that it would have been infinitely more interesting for her to be a figment of Sam's imagination, but, to be honest, I don't think the show is that clever. We've seen Amelia, her father, the vet's assistant, and Don. Plus, the motel kid asked Sam to go fix the woman in Room 16's sink. So, a woman was having problems with her sink unless Sam imagined all those people as well. I don't believe there is any intention of making her fake.
Artsydenise
# Artsydenise 2013-03-05 09:09
Mostly, this season's been pretty depressing. Sam and Dean have just gotten to the point where they're so broken down, so hurt, exhausted, and mentally spent that they're just two guys, hanging onto what little they have left-- and it's not much.

They seem to be going thru he motions mostly; tired and without their heart in it. Even the tablet thing & the tests, it doesn't have the urgency of say- season 5 or 6. Not sure if that's done intentionally or not - but in any case, it's sad to see these two great warriors become a couple of sniping brothers with barely any love between them.
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-05 13:41
To be honest I am a little puzzled why all this is urgent anyway. I mean I know that Crowley is involved and that's always a bad thing. But making it a priority to try to find out what Crowley is up to would seem like a more sensible decision than taking on a universe-alteri ng gameplan with less than half the information you need to finish it....

Can anyone tell me why it is urgent (I may just be forgetting something from the beginning of the season)?
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-05 18:44
I'm not sure it is urgent. Demons got out of Hell even before they opened the one gate in Wyoming. My impression in the season 2 finale was that all the gates to hell were closed, Jake opened the one in Wyoming, Sam and Dean shut the gate in Wyoming after several hundred demons escaped and that was that. I was under the impression that all the gates to hell were closed already. Certainly in season 2 when Meg came back and took over Sam she talked about having to crawl out of hell pulling herself out and that is was really hard work and the only reason she kept on was to get back at Sam and Dean. Now, suddenly there are apparently gate to hell that are open from 9:00-5:00 M-F and any demon can just stroll through into our world.

I do think that Dean latched on to closing the gates of hell as a way of keeping Sam in the hunt. Sam was looking into colleges and really moving away from the hunting life when Kevin suddenly made the we can close the gates of hell forever announcement. So Dean used that to entice Sam into staying. But really, either the gates have been closed all this time and demons have been getting out through the chinks in the armor, or they are closed, but not permanently sealed, or the writers aren't as obsessed with continuity as the fans.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2013-03-06 03:45
Hey, I just had a thought. I wonder if, now that Crowley's King of Hell, that he's let the passage between Hell and Earth become a little more flexible. Who's in control of the damn gates anyway? I know the big one's like the Devil's Gate have to be opened from Earth, but what about the others? Oh, and who made these gates anyway?
Not sure that actually makes a lick of sense, just typing as I'm thinking, but anyone have any thoughts?
nightsky
# nightsky 2013-03-05 21:24
Quote:
To be honest I am a little puzzled why all this is urgent anyway. I mean I know that Crowley is involved and that's always a bad thing. But making it a priority to try to find out what Crowley is up to would seem like a more sensible decision than taking on a universe-altering gameplan with less than half the information you need to finish it....

Can anyone tell me why it is urgent (I may just be forgetting something from the beginning of the season)?
Given the physical toll that the first trial is having on Sam, in retrospect I agree it would have been better if the brothers knew what all the trails would be before they started any of them. I guess they didn't anticipate a ticking time bomb being triggered by the completion of a trial (I confess neither did I). That was somewhat foolhardy.

If I think about it, now there are three issues of urgency:
1. the original motivation of closing the gates is still valid. At one point, one of the boys said they wanted to keep everyone else from having to suffer the way their family suffered. Yellow-eyes was a demon that had plagued humanity long before AHBL, so he found a way out of hell at least. Then he had all those minions that shadowed Sam his whole life, so they all found a way out. So I bought into Sam and Dean wanting to keep any and all demons away from humans. The urgency is that Crowley knows they have the tablet and is looking for it/Kevin, so if he gets his hands on it, the information as to how to close the gates will be sealed away again for a long, long time. Basically, its a race - they figure it out before Crowley steals the tablet. I agree with you though. I would need a few rewatches to figure out if the writers clearly presented their case for the urgency.

2. Kevin finds it urgent to finish deciphering the tablet so he can "get his life back". He is tired of hiding from demons who want to "peel his face off".

3. After all that, NOW they have to hurry because every day makes Sam sicker.
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-05 18:29
You just gave a great description of S7. That was exactly how I viewed it. I don't see this season like that though. It feels much more optimistic to me. Dean came back from Purg. with a renewed attitude about hunting. The first part of this season had some bad (to say the least) moments. The last few episodes have shown how much Sam and Dean love and care about each other. I also think the urgency is slowly building and the last episodes will be pretty exciting!
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-03-06 22:48
I agree Leah. It was season 7 when the boys were stripped of everything that felt a tad depressing to me. This season is more about giving back as they are re-building a network of useful contacts and now have the MOL home-base. It is much more optimistic.

I've enjoyed every season - obviously some more than others - but I think they've all had something going for them. Personally, the Leviathan 'big bad' was my least favourite, but I still enjoyed season 7.

I'm also hesitant to judge season 8 until after episode 23. Plenty can happen from here :-)
maximus3311
# maximus3311 2013-03-05 10:42
Great article!

I think for me part of the problem is the MoL hideout. Don't get me wrong - I think it's great that the boys finally have a "safe" place...but therein lies the problem.

First of all they already had a place - the Impala. Now granted, it was small and cramped...but it's been their "home" (for lack of a better term) for 7 seasons.

The new "base"...let me put it this way. Let's say instead of an Impala the boys had a dog that had been with them for the first seven seasons. Now maybe this dog wasn't going to be winning any beauty contests but it was scrappy. Then season 8 - they stumble across a "perfect" dog - gorgeous, can kill demons without breaking a sweat...oh and did I mention it can also talk?

So in this scenario the old dog kind of gets shoved to the side. It's an afterthought.

I guess maybe the "new dog" is my problem with this season. Yes, the writing (at least to me) is *much* better than last season (I thought the Leviathans/boys vs. giant corporation was pretty awful) but the sense of urgency and danger seems gone.

Granted, I have a strong suspicion that in the not-too-distant future we're going to see the boys tearing @ss away from the MoL compound - up in flames in the rearview mirror - when Crowley (or something) finds it.

The place just gives them *too* much information and safety - and while it might be heartwarming it kind of robs the show of the sense of danger and desperation that forces the boys to depend on one another and have real heart-to-heart talks.

So as of now, instead of being forced into close proximity (in the Impala where they're forced to engage with each other - or hell - even in a motel room where the most privacy one can get is going into the bathroom for a bit) they can just go off to their separate rooms in their giant secret compound.
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2013-03-05 11:40
IN times when they sat in the impala and Dean came back from hell or when Lucifer was freed, and also when Sam came back soulless or when Dean was depressed and didn't share with Sam, the impala didn't gave them the safety room quality, they were to close physically and needed some time apart! Also, even when the impala stands as their home, it is and it will always be Dean's! He drives the car almost always!

The batcave could give them more comfort, more me-time and also more sharing moments, it is like they can watch each other in other patterns, I love to see Sam being comfortable between the books, also Dean in his room. What I still need is to see also Sam's room. It shouldn't be so difficult to give Sam a private room. What I want to say is that this cave is right now a place where we can watch the Winchesters privately, comfortable. I appreciate this, and I don't think that they don't use the impala anymore.

What I didn't like is that they share this room with their clients, it is not far stretched that the bad guys want to find the books, the knowledge. Also I personally don't want to see Castiel there too!
maximus3311
# maximus3311 2013-03-05 11:54
Quote:
IN times when they sat in the impala and Dean came back from hell or when Lucifer was freed, and also when Sam came back soulless or when Dean was depressed and didn't share with Sam, the impala didn't gave them the safety room quality, they were to close physically and needed some time apart! Also, even when the impala stands as their home, it is and it will always be Dean's! He drives the car almost always!

The batcave could give them more comfort, more me-time and also more sharing moments, it is like they can watch each other in other patterns, I love to see Sam being comfortable between the books, also Dean in his room. What I still need is to see also Sam's room. It shouldn't be so difficult to give Sam a private room. What I want to say is that this cave is right now a place where we can watch the Winchesters privately, comfortable. I appreciate this, and I don't think that they don't use the impala anymore.

What I didn't like is that they share this room with their clients, it is not far stretched that the bad guys want to find the books, the knowledge. Also I personally don't want to see Castiel there too!
I agree - the Impala *is* too small and yes they need some time apart - that (in my opinion) was part of what made such great tension. So I'm not really with you on loving the safety and comfort their "batcave" provides.

However, I'm with you on the secrecy thing - I don't like that they're already bringing people who they barely know to their secret home.

Again - I think the writers are building up to destroying it. After all, what have the boys *not* lost in their lives (aside from the Impala and each other)?
st50
# st50 2013-03-05 12:01
I doubt that the batcave is going to be destroyed any time soon. They've talked quite a bit about how much the set cost to build. Most expensive set they've had.
No way they're planning on destroying it soon. It'll be around through season 10, imo.
maximus3311
# maximus3311 2013-03-05 12:54
Quote:
I doubt that the batcave is going to be destroyed any time soon. They've talked quite a bit about how much the set cost to build. Most expensive set they've had.
No way they're planning on destroying it soon. It'll be around through season 10, imo.
Oh ok good to know...well then I guess I'll just wait and hope/trust that they're building up to something big to tie up all the loose ends...
nightsky
# nightsky 2013-03-05 18:26
I was also bothered that in the Titan episode they brought strangers back to the bunker! I thought it was supposed to be a secret! The MoL have kept the location and even its existence secret for so long to protect its contents, yet the boys bring a persecuted god and his family there literally the same day they meet them?? How very trusting of them! I have to admit that I might have been yelling at the TV about this (They also referenced it by offering it as a storage place for the Golem, but they never divulged location or details). I realized that Cas would find the bunker too if he "followed" Dean's prayer there. Dean suspects that Cas is compromised right now, so how about praying to him from somewhere less strategic (like an empty motel room)? Granted, we don't KNOW that the MoL never brought anyone "home", but they weren't hunters, so their "friends" wouldn't have posed as much of a threat as a current case for the boys. If they want to be the legacy now and pass on the legacy to future generations, I really think they should keep their new home very, very private and not share.
PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2013-03-05 19:21
First off, I thought the guy outside the house was Don. Maybe I misunderstood, but he was in the same coat. And by the time Sam left, he was doing it so she could be with Don. I thought HE was watching.

I would like to see Sam talk to Dean about not looking for him. But I was OK with how they worked things out. I looked at it like, Garth helped Dean see things more clearly after the "penny" incident. Personally I really don't need to see any more of the Sam/Amelia storyline. I would be happy to leave those questions unanswered. Bigger fish, you know?!

Benny, oh poor Benny. I just don't think they are going to let him live. I wish they would. He adds something different, but good the the mix.

I have faith in Carver, that he won't let us down in how the season wraps up
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-05 21:55
show never stated in any way that it was don. if it were don, imo they would've shown it to be him by now. there wouldn't be any need for the mystery.

no, i have to disagree with you here respectfully... .i think it was someone else.
E
# E 2013-03-05 22:08
Quote:
But I was OK with how they worked things out. I looked at it like, Garth helped Dean see things more clearly after the "penny" incident.
Hi Penny Jaime, Please excuse me if this seems rantish. :D

I guess my problem here is where is Sam in all this? So, great, Garth has helped Dean to see things more clearly and then what? Does Sam get to hear about Dean's clarity? No, because the brother's haven't talked to one another. Has Sam achieved any clarity? We don't know because other than Dean Sam has no one to talk to so his feelings are largely a mystery. Has Sam apologized for not looking for Dean? No. Has he explained what he was doing in his year off No. Has Dean apologized for ten episodes worth of digs and nasty comments? No. Explained how he got out of purgatory? No. Have they discussed the 'Benny is a better brother' incident? No. Or any of the other issues that Dean's possession by the spectre raised? No. It's not enough IMHO to have Garth and Dean work out problems that are between Sam and Dean and leave the rest twisting in the wind, and leaving us all going "HUH?" To raise these issues and then drop them is poor story telling. Now, I STILL believe (even after all this time) that we will revisit some (or hopefully most) of these issues and get more information on them as the season comes to a close. I have always felt that, but I am on shaky ground.... I will be sorely disappointed if things are basically left as they are with nothing to tie the first ten episodes and all of the brother arguments into the larger plot lines for the season.

So, please excuse the rant. Whew! That felt good. :roll:
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-05 22:21
E? Wow, that is just ... wow :D I love it!
E
# E 2013-03-06 15:55
Hehe, thanks! ;-) . I hope Penny Jamie wasn't offended, my rant wasn't really directed at her..
Super
# Super 2013-03-06 03:17
Rant away E. Lord knows, I've done my fair share of that too :)

That was so spot on about SC, I have nothing to add. That eppie was just bad in many ways. Close to The Mentalists for me. It did have some nice moments though. Garth was cool, I actually gave a crap about him, for once. TM had none of those, I just hated it.

Unlike you, I'm just dreading that this is really all that we got. I'm having a hard time being an optimist. Been burnt too many times, I guess.

But I'm still willing to give JC some slack, mainly because it's JC and this is his first year... He could still have some big reveal coming, I'm just afraid that it will feel "too little, too late" because they are taking forever!

In season 4, they had a reason to keep Sams story on the background and it paid off. This season? I'm not sure how they can explain why they had to be so secretive about it (Sams odd behaviour), successfully anyway. I just had this dreading fear that they just did it for DRAMA and CONFLICT (my least favorite words...and this is coming from an ex AngstHo ;) ) and not because they had a solid, well thought out reason...

Feel free to prove me wrong, Show!

The way things are now, I can't enjoy the first part of the season. Hopefully once the season is over, I can say otherwise. *hopes hopes hopes and prays*
nightsky
# nightsky 2013-03-06 13:28
E, Your "rant" was absolutely great! I loved it! It was perfect!
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-06 13:40
I so agree with this rant E! It sums up my feelings perfectly.
Manstrad
# Manstrad 2013-03-05 23:30
I also think that was Don outside Sam's house. It fits the story.
For what I want to see in this season, is the Benny story wrap up in some dramatic way. I know, most of the fans like him alive, me too, but he is supernatural after all.

About the idea going around for Dean and Sam doing things separated from each other, I don't think it is going to happen. It is a show about two brothers, hunting things, the family business, that is why I starting watching the show.

As for their year separated, I think it was done to give us an idea on what they'll do apart from each other, and how much it will affect their life. And of course a starting point for the writers in the mature relationship of the brothers.

And for the hell's gate, I think it is different from the door of hell from S2. The door keeps the souls and less powerful demons in and the gate is for the powerful demons only. If they close the gate, the bad souls are still going downstairs as always, since these two are not the same.

Going further, I think Season 9 will be all about closing heaven's gate, so no angels allowed back on earth and Season 10 will be all about finding a future for the guys. Although, I'm confident it will be a Season 11 and 12, just to be the only show on the CW to have 12 seasons. We have to leave our mark for future generations. Wishful thinking I know, doable, but, it only will happen if we, the fans stick together and continue to push the show and continue to do good advertising for the show, and recruiting more viewers.... and of course, if the actors will want to go on.
nightsky
# nightsky 2013-03-06 13:22
Quote:
Although, I'm confident it will be a Season 11 and 12, just to be the only show on the CW to have 12 seasons. We have to leave our mark for future generations. Wishful thinking I know, doable, but, it only will happen if we, the fans stick together and continue to push the show and continue to do good advertising for the show, and recruiting more viewers.... and of course, if the actors will want to go on.
I absolutely believe we can stick together past a season 10! Speculation about how the show will end, and only looking forward 2 years (like season 10 is the end of the series) makes me very, very nervous! Jared has said many times that he is game for 25 years of SPN! Now we just have to get Jensen to feel the same way! I'm sure he can not think past the next few months, because he just can't imagine how his life will change with his new baby. So I propose that the fans assume the show will go on for many years to come. If we believe it and act like it and talk about it, everyone may just start to believe it!
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-06 13:38
Quote:
Now we just have to get Jensen to feel the same way! I'm sure he can not think past the next few months, because he just can't imagine how his life will change with his new baby.
Jensen has said at least once that he wants to go to season 11 just so he can one up Tom Welling. That might have been a joke, but I think he could be persuaded. Baby needs shoes and a steady job in this industry is a wonderful thing to have, although I'm pretty sure they can make a good living off conventions when the show finally comes to an end.
Manstrad
# Manstrad 2013-03-06 17:23
[So I propose that the fans assume the show will go on for many years to come. If we believe it and act like it and talk about it, everyone may just start to believe it!

Yes! maybe if we start a campaign like Supernatural For 12 years!!! we the fans have the power of making things happen...
Madhurima
# Madhurima 2013-03-06 06:29
[


Going further, I think Season 9 will be all about closing heaven's gate, so no angels allowed back on earth and Season 10 will be all about finding a future for the guys. .
Exactly! I thought the same! But, I don't think there will be a sesaon 11 or 12 . :( I would love to have them go on forever though! however, with demons locked in hell and Angels in Heaven, I guess the boys will be left with light-weight supernatural things after season 10....
MB
# MB 2013-03-06 12:08
I'm possibly the only person here holding a prayer circle for Naomi. I want answers to her but I really want her to remain on as the key antagonist/oppo nent in the race to the tablets rather than Crowley. To make this season truly great there needs to be some kind of consequence that resonates and for me that'd be the death of someone 'beloved'. Even if that has to extend to the guy we 'love to hate' or more specifically in my case has clearly out stayed his welcome.

I hope that Amelia is fully revisited in the future since she was a decent foil and real bridge between the hunting world and the civilian. Sure she had a poor entry to the show but she grew into something worth exploring and investigating. I don't need answers, I do need some kind of ongoing arc.

Benny needs to make it out the season alive too. I've chosen to interpret Sam's reference to Dean's friends in 8.14 to include Benny so now all we need is for him to develop and pop in and out as the show progresses.

Also, answers to Castiel's predicament are a must though I expect those to extend beyond this season.
Amy
# Amy 2013-03-06 12:43
Naomi can stay and her role as antagonist/vill ian expanded...espe cially if it means getting rid of Crowly. I'm sorry but his sole contribution to show is sarcastic one liners. I'd prefer an actiual villian who actually does villiony stuff minus the grandstanding and monologing.

If Benny stays then Dean has 2 buddies to Sams 0. And this is why I'd like to see the boys sseperated. It would force the writers to give Sam actual relationships. And then Sam fans wont have to worry about Sam standing in the background with no dialogue whole Dean converses and plans with Cas and Benny.

It truely feels like the writers are pushing Sam out whiile making the show about Dean, Cas and Benny their Three Musketeers.
Ashton
# Ashton 2013-03-06 13:49
I personally hope that Sam's past months will be cleared up, because i will never believe this bullshit that he didn't even look for Dean. Also I'd like if Naomi was behind this in some way - sending a Cupid at Sam and Amelia (with the instruction to give them a "lesser degree of love" since they had zero chemistry) and resurrecting Don when Sam was needed back in the game again.

The other things will probably all run together nicely - we see paralels and allegories left and right.
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-03-07 00:30
It has been great reading your article and the comments about everyone’s hopes for the rest of season 8. I love the speculation and the fact that there are so many possibilities. It’s a great show that can keep the fans guessing so much :-?

I keep coming back to Jeremy Carver’s comment about PERCEPTION and I really believe things are not as they seem. I’m maintaining my theory, from very early on, that everything is due to angel manipulation. I think it was angels who told Benny how to get Dean out of Hell & I think they were counting on Dean bringing Cas with them; but when that failed they had to go to plan B to retrieve Cas (losing other angels in the process, as per what Naomi told Castiel when we first saw her).

I also believe it was an angel watching over Sam & Amelia’s house, and that Don was brought back to life by the angels… to throw a wrench in Sam’s domestic life and force him back into hunting. I don’t think it was Don (as some people have suggested), because Don was portrayed as a decent guy who was willing to accept whatever Amelia’s decision was… so I just can’t see him as the type of guy who would stalk their house.

Why did the angels want Sam, Dean & Castiel back together? This is the biggest mystery for me! I have no clue, honestly. But I wouldn’t be surprised if Naomi is also acting on orders from the true ‘big bad’ of the season (and no, I don’t think it’s Crowley). I’m even leaning towards the possibility it’s not even an angel… that someone is just using the angels for nefarious means.

Several other un-related thoughts have also occurred to me as I’ve been reading the comments:

I still think it’s possible that Sam did have a mental breakdown. Maybe this will come out as his health deteriorates due to the trials. There is so much about the Amelia storyline that doesn’t make sense, including the coincidental timing of Dean & Don both returning... and the multiple use of the names Amelia and Don (which others have mentioned).

I also think it’s mighty strange that no-one besides Sam has had any interactions at all with Amelia (in real time), except for the scene where Sam saw Amelia and Don through the window… but that was through Sam’s eyes. Was it even real? We don’t know. Also, the way Amelia’s father was portrayed makes me really suspicious. Unless he is a mind reader, how was he able to push all of Sam’s ‘insecurity buttons’? Everything he said hurt Sam, because I think it was confirming Sam’s own worst fears about himself.

I’ve actually already mentioned this in response to one of the comments above & Percysowner has pointed out that we did see Amelia enter the empty motel room, which probably de-bunks my thoughts. But could Sam have also imagined that scene… I think Percysowner is probably right though and my thoughts are a bit of a stretch. But, it’s frustrating… there seems to be so many clues in the Sam flashback’s that lead us nowhere. So I’m very confused :sigh:

How about another theory? Is it possible that Naomi is inside Sam’s head, like she is with Castiel? I’m finding it hard to articulate my thoughts on this theory, but this might explain some of Sam’s erratic behavior. Maybe he can’t remember what happened immediately after Dean disappeared because his memories have been tampered with. Maybe when he was looking for Dean, he stumbled onto something else that Naomi (or her boss) didn’t want him knowing? So they tampered with his memory and set him on the path to meeting Amelia – to get him out of the way, until they needed him.

Honestly, I think I’m rambling now… sorry for this long post.

I just want to mention Meg’s return in the next episode. I think she’ll double-cross Sam & Dean. She has been in the clutches of Crowley far too long to be trusted at this point. And, she has a habit of switching sides when it’s convenient for her own wellbeing. I certainly hope Sam & Dean don’t tell her about the MoL bunker.

Anyhow I’m excited by all the possibilities, and can’t wait to watch the rest of season 8 :D
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-07 09:01
The only problem with that theory is Sam never said he couldn't remember what happened after Dean disappeared. He was very clear, IMO, in saying he drove around until he hit a dog and met a girl. Now do you mean Sam may have false memories? That could be true.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade. I guess I just see Sam's story for Sam as an experiment that went wrong. Carver said he wanted to explore what would happen of Sam didn't look for Dean. He said we all knew Sam would look but what if he didn't. Now, that could have been a lie or mischaracteriza tion of the story but I doubt it. Carver simply didn't want Sam to look for Dean so Sam didn't. I just don't think there's much more to it than that.

The story was a bust, IMO. Carver may recognize that now but who knows? Last interview I read with him, he said he was happy with the Sam/Amelia story and thought it turned out well!
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-07 15:33
Sadly, I think I agree that it was an experiment that didn't work AND that Carver has no intention of fixing it, despite the damage it did to Sam. He made certain to fix any damage to Castiel BEFORE Cas started doing anything bad, so all I can chalk it up to is simply not caring one iota about Sam, his characterizatio n, continuity or fan reaction. The only other alternative was that he wanted Sam to look bad. In either case, this does not speak well to his ability to present a storyline that I will enjoy. I will stick it out until the end of the season, but the damage is already done and I can't just gloss over it anymore. If it isn't rectified, this will change my feelings so much about this show. I'm not swearing that I would leave, but I don't want the Dean and Cas show with his worthless brother Sam who doesn't love him and guest visits by Benny the huggable vampire, who is has been a better brother than Sam EVER was, and that seems to be where they are heading.
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-03-07 16:37
If TPTB are trying to keep a 'big reveal' secret, Jeremy Carver would say that he was happy with the way the Sam/Amelia story turned out. Look at the lengths they went to last season to keep Bobby's return a secret. Just saying... anything the creators say should be taken with a grain of salt ;-)

What I meant with my theory about Sam is that Naomi is/was in his head the same way she is with Castiel. For example: Castiel told Dean that it was his idea to look for Samadriel and he believed that, but it wasn't his idea. So perhaps Sam did look for Dean, but for some reason Naomi has planted an alternative story in his head (and he doesn't remember her doing that)... it just speculation and I'm probably completely wrong.

I should point out that I'm one of the few people that did accept Sam's story. That he thought Dean was dead and had a mental break (imploded). I'm a Sam fan & I can live with that explanation. But, I wasn't really convinced by the Sam/Amelia flashbacks (due to the lack of chemistry, the way they did the lighting, etc). If it turns out there was angel interference, this may help me with that aspect of the story... hence my speculation and hopes for the rest of the season :D
LeahMae
# LeahMae 2013-03-07 19:07
Yes, KG_SPN, I like how you think and agree!! I do wish for an explanation but it won't completely ruin the season. My final evaluation will wait for the 23rd episode.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-07 19:14
Quote:
That he thought Dean was dead and had a mental break
And if they would deign to show that he had a mental break, I would be fine with that story, but that isn't the story. The story is Sam didn't give a damn, hit a dog and found a girl and rarely gave a second thought to Dean.
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-03-07 21:55
I have to respectfully disagree with you here :-)

I don't believe it's been portrayed that Sam didn't give a damn. He has articulated a number of times that he didn't cope with Dean's disappearance. Maybe it's been too subtle (and that's a fair enough criticism), but it's definitely been there.

Initially he hinted that he'd had enough of hunting because he'd lost his entire family; then he told Amelia he had imploded; then he told Amelia's father that he'd lost his brother and he'd run; and, finally, he told Amelia that she saved had him. What did he mean by that?

All of the above reflects that Sam did give a damn. He suffered - most likely for several months - before he met Amelia. I, too, would like to see those missing months, but if it doesn't happen I will simply accept that he was devastated by the loss of Dean.

I'm sorry that you can't and this is just my humble opinion. But we might have to agree to disagree on this point :-)
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-07 23:01
KG_SPN, it has been WAY too subtle for me too. This is such an incredible shift in his personality, from being the guy who'd do anything for his brother to not even looking. They HAVE to give us more than a few throwaway lines as to why. Otherwise it is incredibly bad storytelling and characterizatio n.Their brotherly bond is fundamental to the show. Without it, there isn't a show IMO. So they can't just have the character say, "My world imploded". And be done with it. Especially when the character is seemingly unaffected in every flashback with saw him in. If his world imploded then there should be some sign of that a few short months later. But he was pretty much fine. Got a girl and a dog and settled down and seemed a little resentful of Dean when he got back. I mean just compare the hug in 8x1 to the one in Lazarus Rising or Mystery Spot or Like A Virgin.

It like a completely different relationship. They MUST have show why. What happen to Sam? Why would move on so quickly from the "death" of the most important person in his life pretty much from birth? It makes no sense. I'm praying there is some big reveal that explains his behavior. Because I haven't seen any evidence that "he was devastated by the loss of Dean" so I NEED a reason why.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-07 23:55
I couldn't agree more w/Kelly's post. By all outward appearances, Sam seemed perfectly fine to me. He definitely didn't appear to be someone whose world imploded or someone who was overwhelmed by grief. Amelia didn't appear that way to me either.

And the worse part is the complete indifference to Dean's return. Sam didn't seem overly happy for that Dean was back in light of him allegedly thinking Dean was dead. The hug in 8X01 is a great example. It is such a lackluster, unemotional hug on Sam's part. I know Jared had to be directed to play down his happiness at Dean's return. Why? From what I've seen, it was strictly done to further Carver's forced, contrived conflict btw the brothers. There was no larger story at work.

I know I'm being pretty pessimistic, but I think Sam's story was just poorly told. The writing was just bad. I don't think there is a huge twist waiting to be revealed; it was just a bad story that was even more poorly executed. Haha!
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-03-08 02:50
Again, I'll respectfully disagree :-)

I did not perceive Sam as being happy in any of the flashbacks... far from it. Even in the birthday cake flashback, Sam was at first frantic because he thought Amelia was missing. This tells me that he is terrified of losing another person. I don't think he would've reacted in this way if Dean's disappearance hadn't affected him.

This is how I remember the flashbacks: Sam was distraught because he hit a dog; he was taken aback by Amelia's initial hostility; he felt misunderstood when she said he pitied her; they were both sad when they shared stories about their mutual losses; his insecurities were bought to the surface when he met Amelia's dad; and, finally, he was sad because he had to leave her, to do the right thing (which is definitely the Sam we know). He laughed at one joke the father told and he was happy that Amelia remembered his birthday. Two very brief moments of happiness in a whole lot of flashbacks. You'll never convince me that Sam was 'pretty much fine' or unaffected by his loss.

IMHO, Sam was still suffering. In the scene where Amelia's dad opened the beer bottles in the same way Dean did, Sam finally opened up to him and talked about Dean. He smiled, in remembrance, but I found this scene incredibly heartbreaking. Jared did a great job.

Also, I don't believe there has been a shift in personality. Sam was ready to give up when he was in the mental hospital in 'The Born Again Identity'. He admitted to Dean that he was too tired; that it was inevitable that he would die. I'm fully aware that Castiel took away his hellucinations, but this does not mean that Sam's attitude/state of mind was completely healed. IMHO he looked pale and tired right to end of season 7, so I have no problem concluding that he did not cope after he had lost Dean (and Castiel) and particularly as it was so soon after they'd farewelled Bobby AGAIN.

After everything that Sam had gone through since he jumped into Lucifer's cage, I don't find it a stretch that he couldn't continue hunting at this point. He'd lost everyone he loved!!

Also, one last thing, I don't think Sam resented Dean being back. The hug came across as genuine to me, as did his disbelief that the person he thought was dead was actually alive. Where the disappointment came in was because of Dean's reaction to Sam saying he'd quit hunting. I do think Sam felt bad after Dean's reaction (and after hearing the phone messages from Kevin), but I think this was Sam's own guilt coming into play, not because he resented Dean being back. Again, this is just how I interpreted it.

As I said above, I still do hope we see Sam's missing months, or there is a big reveal, but if there isn't I'm also very happy to believe my own interpretations . I do not love Sam any less because of season 8 :sigh:

I'm also sorry that others are so disappointed in the season that they are ready to quit the show but, as a huge Sam fan, you should know that we don't all feel this way. I, for one, think season 8 has been great (despite the less than successful Amelia flashbacks)... and I'm very excited by the latest developments and where we are heading.

But, I do sense that I'm in the minority here, so I'll bow out now that I've had my rather lengthy say :-)
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2013-03-08 07:25
KG_SPN, I think I'm in the minority with you, because this is more or less how I remember/interp reted Sam's flashbacks, too.
Admittedly, I would've liked a little more, and wouldn't mind some extra exploration on it later, but I think I'm fairly content in what we've been shown,and it hasn't affected my enjoyment of this season.
I can understand though why others are more disappointed, though.
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-03-08 08:09
I'm glad I'm not alone in my enjoyment... sometimes I think I must just be easily pleased... or that I love the character of Sam so much it wouldn't matter what he did lol.

I'd really like some further explanation to what happened to Sam too, but I'm realistic that it may never happen (and accepting if it doesn't). I'm also in the camp that thinks the reveals may be spread out over seasons 9 & 10 (due to JC's 3-year plan), so I'm not necessarily looking for everything to be resolved by the end of season 8 (especially as they got the early renewal).

I just re-watched season 4 and it was incredible the things that were revealed very late in that season, and also the reveals in Lucifer Rising that dated back to season 1. Jeremy Carver was on the writing team back then & I still have a lot of faith that everything will tie in, if not at the end of this season, eventually. I'm a patient person :D

By the way, this season is definitely 23 episodes :-)
Ale
# Ale 2013-03-08 09:58
KG_SPN, I agree with you. I'm also part of the minority. :-)
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-08 10:41
Please don't feel you need to leave. I'm truly glad that you are able to see things in an optimistic light. I do enjoy reading your insights, even if I currently don't share your enjoyment.
Ale
# Ale 2013-03-08 11:22
I don’t know if there will be a twist or not in the story, but like KG_SPN, I respectfully disagree.

The show has shown Sam and Dean grieving for each other several times. Dean became so overwhelmed by grief, and desperate, that he sold his soul. Sam was so shocked and in denial of Dean’s death in Mystery Spot that he became a robot, and a dangerous person (he ‘killed’ Bobby!). Again, in S04, Sam initially was a drunken mess and self-destructiv e, then became kind of blind by revenge. And Dean, in S06, was living a half-hearted life with Lisa and Ben just because he promised Sam he would, but was far from happy. Not to mention Dean’s depression on S07, knowing that Sam was far from ok and that one day the other shoe would drop. As it did.

All kinds of grieve was shown. I believe Sam in S08 was another kind and, IMO, not less intense, but more difficult to understand.

What I saw in Sam in S08 is that he was just exhausted. Drained. Like, when you take so many hits that you don’t have any more tears to cry, you have no more fight left inside yourself, you just stop. Stop felling, stop thinking, stop planning, stop doing anything. You’re just numb, emotionless. You don’t necessarily have an emotional breakdown, or became crazy. You’re not even depressed, in a traditional way, because you are not having bad thoughts – you are not thinking at all. You keep on living and functioning on a basic level, but the world outside does not reach you, it doesn’t mean anything. It doesn’t speak to you – you’re not a part of it. There is no more life, you just shut everything up and live in dreamland. Or more like in a trance. That was what, IMO, life with Amelia was for Sam. She was someone to gravitate around, to construct your unreal, made up, comfortable life around. You can do it with anything, a place, a book, a TV series, a person. With a person, it can easily be misinterpret with love, but is not real love, it’s as unreal as the circumstances you created.

Also, I just think Sam was still kind of numb when Dean reappeared. Hence, the less than emotional hug.

Visions, demon blood, an epic failure in S04, overwhelming guilt, redemption, God knows how many years being tortured by Satan himself, soulless, a wall in his mind, the wall breaking down, hallucinations, near death experience (another one). And then, on top of that, more grief and loss (Dean, Castiel, Bobby) and being completely alone. No one left. Still, everybody wants him to keep fighting? Again? At this point, Sam just convinced himself that Dean died, and there was nothing more he could do. Close your eyes, throw everything to the wind, stop thinking, start running.

This is from someone (me) that went through a similar process once. I was accused of not feeling. Or not feeling enough. Or being ‘far too much well’. I was not. It was hard for me to wake up and take an interest in the world again. To start fighting for something. To disengage from my dreamlife. IMO, for Sam it started with the return of Dean. But it was a process, he had to slowly come out from the trance, a good, warm, safe, trance that you don’t want to give up and face real, harsh life.

Those are my thoughts about what Sam went through and the reasons why I disagree he was put in a bad light by the writers. I felt for him.

Of course, it can also be angel manipulation that makes me completely wrong. You never know! :-)
st50
# st50 2013-03-08 11:30
.
Ale
# Ale 2013-03-08 11:41
Quote:
I'm not grieving "properly"
Exactly, what the hell does it mean?

I'm sorry for you.

Maybe we have in S08 the same thing we had in S04. The reasons were there, but not clear enough for some.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-08 12:39
Ale, I have no problem with saying people grieve differently. That he was numb. Yada Yada Yada. It is one of several theories that could be true or could be completely entirely wrong in every way. Because they didn't really SHOW us anything. So we are left guessing.

Considering Sam's mental state in S7, they wouldn't have had to show us much to have me believe he had a complete breakdown or went numb or whatever the other theories are. A couple minutes of footage in a montage probably would have been enough to establish that. But they really didn't show us anything. Not establishing it is destructive not only to Sam's character but to the show in generally. (see reasons below :-) )I'm praying there is a reason and some big reveal that will explain why they haven't shown what Sam went though up to now. Because without it, I will have lost all my faith in JC.

I would have loved for them to show more in S4 but, for me, since it didn't go contrary for everything I knew about the show and the character, it was enough. Plus we could a hell of lot more in S4 than we got this season. We saw Sam grieving, we saw his desperation, we saw Ruby using that to manipulate him. He talked about why he started using his powers and later why he continued, despite it scaring him. And we saw him the first moment he truly believed Dean was alive. It was like he couldn't hold on tight enough. It was beautiful and heart-wrenching .

But this IS completely contrary to everything I know of Sam and yet we've gotten this miniscule scrapes. So yeah definitely not enough for me.
Ale
# Ale 2013-03-08 12:11
Ah, and to me, Dean had a hard time understanding Sam's grief. He wasn't able to understand numbness. He understands desperate actions better. He is an action kind of guy. :-) . He misinterpreted it for Sam not caring (as in not fighting) for him. Hence, the infamous better brother line, bringing up old resentments.
st50
# st50 2013-03-08 12:31
.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-08 12:49
THIS! Seasons four and five were extremely difficult times to be a Sam fan and be part of the fandom community. The handling of Sam this season is WORSE IMHO than it was in season four. There is no context being spelled out for Sam, while Dean's feelings are continually expressed and reiterated. The show validates Dean's view and obsucres or not totally hides Sam's. As as Sam fan that just hurts.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-03-09 00:00
Quote:
THIS! Seasons four and five were extremely difficult times to be a Sam fan and be part of the fandom community. The handling of Sam this season is WORSE IMHO than it was in season four. There is no context being spelled out for Sam, while Dean's feelings are continually expressed and reiterated. The show validates Dean's view and obsucres or not totally hides Sam's. As as Sam fan that just hurts.
You are right. Exactly why S5 is the worst season for me although that may change at the end of S8 as I am not at all enjoying what's been done to Sam's character and the contrived bitchiness from Dean.
Ale
# Ale 2013-03-08 13:31
Kelly, st50 and Percyowner:

That is the point. This kind of grief is hard to understand, or explain. I couldn’t make my family understand it. I couldn’t myself. It took time for all of us. It is also difficult to relate to. Everybody can relate to crying, being desperate etc. It’s classic grief. But not this. You look ok. It’s all just appearance, but you seem ok. So, I can understand that people felt frustrated when Sam was not shown a desperate man and took this as Sam been uncaring.

I wrote above that SPN has shown several kinds of grief. The other ones are easier to show. They tried different for Sam, and I admire the show for it, because they didn’t shy away from taking the harder path (assuming this was their intent all along – I can’t be sure!). For me, it was explained, especially in Hunteri Heroici (as I said, I could relate to). And it had to be for Sam, because, IMO, it suits his personality better, not Dean’s.

Sam may have looked bad for you, but to me Dean looked worse because he didn’t try to listen and understand what Sam went through and was constantly reminding him that he supposed failed Dean, didn´t live up to his expectations. Benny was the fuse because it served as someone Dean compared to in his hurt and in order to hurt Sam (undeservedly) and Sam was also at fault because he was jealous and, because of Dean’s attitude, not willing to accept Benny and the importance he had to Dean. Just my opinion, of course. It’s all perception.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-08 17:43
The problem is this is a drama. It's a television show. We need to see Sam being numb or too exhausted to do anything. We need him to say he's been broken down by this last loss.

Like Kelly, st50, and Percy, I can believe Sam shut down or was numb, but b/c this is a tv show, his grief shouldn't be played so subtly that it doesn't convey to the audience. I understand you and others saw the grief, but I didn't and I'm a Sam fan. I mention that b/c I'm trying to make you understand that I wanted to see Sam's pain/grief. I wanted to see this overwhelming depression even if it were reflected in a numbness or unemotional state, but I didn't get any of that from the story.

Instead of spending all the FBs on Amelia, why not have Sam talk? Why not show Sam speaking to Amelia about how he hasn't cried over his brother's death or about how he doesn't feel anything right now. He could then tell her about all the other losses he's suffered. Tell me a story. Show me something. That's all I'm saying. A few lines here and there and some crappy FBs was not a story for me.

I like your idea but think it could have been executed better if that's what they were hoping to convey.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-09 00:08
Ale, I don't need to see Sam sobbing or rending his clothes or anything really dramatic. There are so many ways to show grief, pain or even numbness with small moments. Jared can show a wealth of emotion in just a moments. Like his last scene in S7, he looked like a scared little boy standing there. Now I want to know what came between that look and the panic over of a dog (which I do suspect was Dean related).

If they are going for numbness then, then a montage of him frantically running around and then realizing Dean was gone and showing all emotion leave his face. And then him just driving and driving and driving and driving until he hit a dog. That's it. If they had done that in the beginning of the season, I think most people would have been fairly satisfied. Maybe they would of preferred a more dramatic take on things but I doubt there would have been half the gripes there are now. Then when he was with Amelia they could have had HER say something about being numb and being feeling unable to pull herself back to reality. So she just had to get through each day. And the have a shot of Sam's face to give an indication that the writer was actually talking about Sam. Or something better but that accomplishes the same thing.

Instead they didn't show us anything of the in between time and when she spoke of what she went through she talked about wanting to escape the judgment and pity of everyone she knew. But that can't be code for what Sam is going through because he had no one to feel bad for him. So again we really got no hints what Sam was going through.

It would have been incredibly easy to fill those flashbacks with small moments that give a REAL indication of what he was going through.Instead we learned about Amelia and her pain. And I don't give two craps about her. In fact out of all Sam's women, she is the one I most wanted to die and that includes Ruby(although admittedly Ruby was a character I love to hate). God Amelia was annoying.

The fact that it could have been pretty easily done is actually one of the things that gives me hope that something is up. Because they had to know this would be an issue for so many people and they could have done the exact same story while NOT hanging Sam out to dry. But they seem to choose not to mitigate the effects at every opportunity. So I'm hoping that means it was purposeful. And that these last episodes clear up a lot of this.

Ale, I know that we'll never see eye to eye on this. And I'm glad it's working for you, although wish it wasn't because you relate to it (I reread my comment from earlier and I hope you don't think I was being flippant about anything you went though). I just think lala2 is right, in a show you have to give the audience more then a few throwaway lines on something this important to the show.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-08 12:45
Again, I can believe that Dean didn't understand Sam's grief. The problem is that Sam never clarified what he felt. The only scenario for Sam's grief is Dean's interpretation. Sam simply has not been allowed to open his mouth and Sam being numb was shown poorly, if you believe it was shown, or not at all, which is what I saw.

None of this has to do with being so much on Sam's side. I've always been on Sam's side. I saw his side during season four when fans were bashing him right and left. I saw his side for all the seasons. I see his side now. My problem is that I have to hunt and make up explanations based on my experiences or how I relate to things instead of the writers giving Sam's emotions a clear airing. The fact that people are still appalled that Sam doesn't trust a vampire he met for 2 minutes and are asking why he feels that way speaks to how little of Sam's mind we have seen. The same goes with looking for Dean. I can come up with reasonable human reasons for not looking, but the text refuses to make Sam's response explicit. Since Sam has so often been "the mystery" this only serves to isolate him more than before. My problem is not that I don't understand Sam, my problem is that the show refuses to make Sam's POV front and center. That is a real issue when they then have Sam act in a way that seems OOC AND that most easily be explained by the idea that Sam doesn't love Dean enough.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-03-18 02:34
Quote:
The fact that people are still appalled that Sam doesn't trust a vampire he met for 2 minutes and are asking why he feels that way speaks to how little of Sam's mind we have seen.
exactly
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-03-08 17:39
Quote:
Those are my thoughts about what Sam went through and the reasons why I disagree he was put in a bad light by the writers. I felt for him.
I felt for him too :cry:

I'm sorry you went through something similar, Ale. Grief affects people differently and there is no right or wrong. Perhaps this is the reason why Sam's missing time is so contentious - we are all interpreting it in our own way based on our understanding of grief. The 3-4 months after I lost my father are a complete blur to me. I don't remember any details other than I managed to get out of bed, go to work, and come home each day. I'm sure the people at my work wondered what the hell my problem was, particularly as most of them didn't know I'd suffered a loss.

Anyhow, the way I see the rest of season 8 (in regard to Sam) is that we have two possible outcomes.

Option 1: There will be some sort of twist that will reveal more about Sam's time away from Dean. I know this is what a lot of people are hoping for.

Option 2: We will get no more about that time and we will have to accept OR not accept our 'own' interpretations of what happened.

I was having a chat with a friend on twitter last night and she said: "SPN fans are quite an astute bunch, able to pick up on the inferring and subtle hints".

I totally agree with this. Isn't it possible TPTB believed the fans know Sam well enough (having seen him lose Dean twice before) to know that he would be completely broken (and not have to spell it out once again). But, this time, believing Dean was dead, Sam chose to walk away rather than seek revenge. Remember, Carver also hinted we would see the brothers becoming more mature. Isn't this actually a sign of maturity? That Sam has become wiser after what happened to him in S4 and he chose a different path. Why do we have to see it? IMO, there is a very real possibility TPTB felt that they didn't need to spell this out. Time will tell, of course.

We all know that there are things scattered throughout the 8 fabulous seasons of Supernatural that could've been done better (no show is perfect). This year, perhaps they did need a few scenes to show (rather than imply) Sam's grief. But will Supernatural be ruined for me if we never see this, definitely NOT :D
LeahMae
# LeahMae 2013-03-08 18:30
KG_SPN, I agree and understand what you are saying but I do understand the frustrations of the Sam or Sam leaning fans and some of us more in the middle. Sam just behaved oddly in the first part of the season. Sometimes it came across more as indifference. Sometimes in the FB he came across disconnected (maybe part of the grieving process) who knows because it wasn't very clearcut. If they had just had a scene showing Sam devastated looking, it didn't have to be a big hair pulling, sobbing scene. Anything really, even him holding his head in despair. The only time he showed a great deal of emotiom was when he was mad.

It won't ruin the season for me as it might others but it will be disappointing if they never revisit those earlier months and will have a negitive effect on how I see judge the season as a whole. I was not part of the online fandom in earlier seasons so I had no idea that Sam was getting bashed so relentlessly. I always loved and felt I understood him and still do. But a little clarity wouldn't have hurt.
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-03-08 21:41
I am also fairly new to the online fandom & I've only recently started to make comments (which is sometimes a little scary :eek: ).

I should point out that though although Sam is my favourite character, I also really love Dean. I do not get involved in any Sam vs Dean discussions and never will, because I believe it's a show about two brothers, who are both flawed and both have made mistakes. I believe that the creators of SPN have this view also (unless someone can get Jeremy Carver, Sera Gamble or Eric Kripke to tell me otherwise, I just won't buy into it).

Anyhow, I have gone off on a tangent there. This particular thread has been about people's discontent with the Sam storyline, so my focus has been on that.

Like you, I still retain some hope that there is more to Sam's year than we've been told and, as I expressed in my original comment, I think it might be angel manipulation.

But, I have to admit, I got tired of reading comments along the lines of "I'm never going to be able to watch the first 11 episodes again" or "I'm done with this show if the Sam issue is not resolved". Please don't get me wrong, I totally accept that these are valid comments and there are quite a few people feeling this this way. I truly do understand and I'm genuinely sorry that they feel this way about a show that they obviously love. But these views are so far from my own point of view that I felt compelled to give an alternative outlook.

Bottom line, if we don't get anything else about Sam's year apart from Dean, I can live with it. I don't expect people to agree with me. We all watch the same show but we bring to it our own expectations/pe rceptions/react ions. Mine is just an alternative view to a lot of comments that I have seen posted here.

In a few weeks time, after Jeremy Carver has stunned the hell out of us, we might look back at these comments and wonder what we were worried about :lol:

So, for now, I'm going to sit back and wait for the last 7 episodes. Maybe we can re-visit this conversation after the finale :-)
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-08 22:14
KG_SPN, yes, I am totally on the same page as you while at the same time still hoping for some revelations. I would love for JC to knock our socks off but I will take it as it comes and reserve judgement. I hope it did not come across as disagreeing with your point of view! On the contrary if that is all there is, I will still love the show and will continue watching. It will be disappointing, thats all.

I always love the post finale conversations, pro and con!! :roll:
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-03-08 22:31
Oh no, it didn't come across that way at all. I'm enjoying the conversations (for the most part) :-)

I get a bit confused about who has said what & where in the various threads and I really just wanted to clarify that I'm also hopeful that there's more to the Sam story (I guess we are both in agreement with most people on that point lol). But I thought that this part of my comment might've been lost in my acceptance of everything else (if that's all we are getting) :-?
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-08 22:51
Ok so this is completely off-topic (and I suspect daft on my part :D, but why stop now ...) but I have found if you narrow your screen so that you can align the LEFT hand side of a given poster's picture box (avatar) against the left hand side of your browser screen (using the scroll bar at the bottom of your screen) and then scroll up, the first avatar you come to that is cut in half is the person they are replying to.

I have to narrow the browser screen to about half to give enough movement to do the sideways maneuver.

Does that make any sense? Probably not....
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-03-08 23:42
It makes some sense... and might help :lol:

I'm sometimes on my phone and other times on my laptop. It's really hard work trying to follow the threads on my phone (even though my phone has quite a big screen).
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-08 22:48
I pretty new (a little over a year) to the online fandom as well. I used to just read reviews. But I have enjoyed the debates and seeing others POV's. I love a good debate, but I have to admit this issue does hit a nerve and I am less objective than I probably should be.

And I am so praying I have to eat a extremely large helping of crow when (please let it be when not if) this all comes together.

And I can see how if you're enjoying the season completely it would be frustrating to see people disparage it all the time.

But I DO love the show. I even really enjoyed the first episodes, because I assumed there was going to be a reveal. But more and more reviews and posts just seem to accept that there is nothing more to the story and then all the new evidence seem to say they are right. And more and more they seem to imply that the people who weren't happy should just accept and get over it. And then proceeded to tell me why we should get over it. (I've listed why that is impossible for me)

I realize that was probably not the intention, but like I said this is really a sore subject with me because the earlier episodes leave just me frustrated and sad. And I see the show I love losing what made it so special. Even if there is no reveal, they do seem to have course corrected, but as soon as I watch a 1-10 episode the frustration is back. That is why I am one of the people who keeps saying they will have write off the first half of the season if there is no reveal. Because it bothers me to such an extent that if I don't it ruins the rest of the season for me.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-03-08 19:08
KG_SPN,

Well put; agree with all of your points. Count me in the minority with you.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-07 23:40
Exactly, Percy! This has not been presented as a story about Sam being so depressed and distraught that he couldn't function or that he had a mental breakdown. I don't get that impression at all. All we got was Sam drove around, hit dog, met a girl, and settled down. That's it.

We got the bare bones of a story. There was no "meat" to this story. We don't know why Sam thought Dean was dead. If he honestly thought Dean had died, he would have answered Dean's question about searching for him in the premiere. Plus, to think Dean was dead would imply, IMO, that Sam did some preliminary research or investigation into the situation but that's not what we're being told. Sam also said he thought Dean was in the next town over eating tacos.

There was no thought or consideration put into this story. I wish the FBs had shown how depressed Sam was or how he was lost but I didn't get that. I love Sam. This story did him NO favors. Miles vary but this story, IMO, was very poorly told, esp. if I was supposed to believe Sam was very depressed or distraught. I didn't get that at all, and I say that as someone who is not looking to see the worst in Sam.
nightsky
# nightsky 2013-03-07 10:33
KG_SPN , You articulated very well the details of a lot of the theories that I have considered. As I eluded to in my initial post, my personal favorite theory is that the angels got hold of Sam soon after Dean disappeared and have manipulated him since then. The "training" I mentioned would be knowledge they inserted into his mind to help him more effectively find the tablets. It also accounts for my suspicion from the first two episodes of Season 8 that he had been told to be alert to evidence of more tablets, and be keen on identifying exactly WHICH tablet had been found.

I like this theory because it explains so much of Sam's behavior - his controlled emotions, his enhanced knowledge, his lost time, Amelia. I also like the parallel - he was manipulated by demons for the first 20-something years of his life, he finally got rid of them (by taking on Lucifer) and now in the pursuit of getting rid of demons for all time he is being manipulated by angels! The irony!

I also believe angels told Benny how to get out of Purgatory. In the flashback in ALSOK, Benny said "they" told him of the portal. If he got info from the alpha vamp, he would have said "he". I can't think of another group that would be referred to in to the plural that would want to get Dean out of Purgatory.

I think both the mental breakdown AND the angel manipulation are possible for Sam. First, the breakdown, then the angel snag. Wouldn't that be complicated!?

As for Amelia, I so WANT her to be a "dream" (be in Sam's imagination), but there is so much evidence to the contrary that I have given up on speculating about her! I'm just going to sit back and wait on this storyline!
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-03-08 03:03
Quote:
I think both the mental breakdown AND the angel manipulation are possible for Sam. First, the breakdown, then the angel snag. Wouldn't that be complicated!?
I love this idea & it would be great if it turned out that way, or something like this :D

One worrying aspect to this scenario is that Naomi is likely to know about the MoL bunker if she is still manipulating Sam :eek:

I have also given up on Amelia being imagined (again lol). But I'm incredibly excited by the current storyline and can't wait for 20 March :-)
nightsky
# nightsky 2013-03-07 11:04
I have loved all this discussion! So many great minds working on this! How about if we add another dimension to our analysis? IF there IS a big reveal coming, how long do you think we will have to wait for it?

We can be pretty sure we will get some answers in the last few episodes of Season 8 (the "bookend" episodes, as Jared has called them). The question is, can we expect any answers before then?

If we look back at prior seasons for precedent,
Season 1 - the search for John:
- The audience knew John was alive in episode 9 (Home).
- The boys knew John was alive when he called them. Wasn't that the end of episode 10, explained in much more detail in episode 11?

In Season 6, when Sam's behavior was a mystery to Dean:
- it was episode 7 when we learned that Sam didn't have his soul
- it was again episode 11 when Death restored Sam's soul.

So, answers were given at mid-season in both cases. Those are the storylines / mysteries I can quickly cite that were at least somewhat answered within a single season. Are there other examples you can think of? We've seen 16 episodes so far in S8, so we are well past those milemarkers. No wonder we are getting anxious!!

Jeremy said he had a 3-year plan. So if we are seeing the foundation for a 3 year story, I'm sure we won't get any answers at all until the last few episodes of this year. That would be consistent with the timing of the boys finally killing Azazel (sp?), Sam dying, Dean selling his soul, Dean dying, and on and on. Do you think we should just get comfortable, sit back and relax until episodes 21+? ouch!

(btw, does anyone know if 22 or 23 episodes are scheduled for this year? I know the last epi of S8 is scheduled to air in the U.S. on May 15, but I don't know its number).

So IF we presume there is brillance in the plan, WHEN do you think we will be rewarded for all our patience?
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-07 11:16
Nightsky, but in S4, we didn't know Sam was drinking demon blood until ep16 and Dean didn't know it until ep 20 and in S6 we didn't know that Castiel was conspiring with Crowley until ep 19. And both of those season had one ep less. (we are getting 23) So I still think a big reveal is a definite possibility this season.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-07 11:20
Spoiler TV gave a new recurring character spoiler appearing in episodes 21-23, so it looks like 23.

In my optimistic moments, I hoping we get answers during them. Today I'm feeling pessimistic and I think there are no answers, Sam didn't look for Dean. Amelia was his story for the last year. Benny in fact is the best brother Dean ever had and Sam should go jump. There is and will be nothing more.

The aforementioned recurring character has left me not a happy camper.
LeahMae
# LeahMae 2013-03-07 14:00
Percy, of course I had to go and check it out. Very interesting. I myself am not sure how that would adversely effect anything (any further). Having another recurring character would definitely take away fron exploring any explanations of early season mysteries concerning Sam, though, if that is what you mean.

"Benny in fact is the best brother Dean ever had and Sam should go jump". As always , never agree with those kind of comments. Whatever. I can understand the pessimism but I am still optimistic as of now.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-07 14:54
As I said, I was in a blah mood today. Mostly I have had enough of this particular breed of antagonists, and the spoilers make it sound like that part will take over season 9.

I will personally never see Benny as a better brother than Sam, but the show presented him using those exact words. Dean was categorical about that. They put it out there and they left it there unrefuted and still hanging as a big flag to me. And before you mention the penny, I have had to live with being told repeatedly that Sam saying mean things to Dean were because he meant them and can not be absolved, so I'm applying the same standards to Dean under the influence.
LeahMae
# LeahMae 2013-03-07 15:31
Sorry your in a blah mood. I never bring up the spectre thing unless someone else does first. I wish they had never done it. The only other thing I want to say is I never hold what the brothers say in anger or under influences against them, people say ugly things when they are mad (or possessed) sometimes. I won't bother you any more today :-) I hope your day gets better.
E
# E 2013-03-07 21:08
Maybe said mystery character was the one standing outside Sam's house in Kermit, TX.....
LeahMae
# LeahMae 2013-03-07 22:39
Hmmm, there is SOME reason that shadowy character has not been revealed yet. Why was anyone watching Sam in the first. Still hoping for something revealing and juicy.
Amy
# Amy 2013-03-08 09:08
Quote:
Maybe said mystery character was the one standing outside Sam's house in Kermit, TX.....
I still think the mystery charector was a crew memeber accidently getting in the shot...and they didn't care enoughor have time to reshoot.
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2013-03-08 03:36
Answering Nightsky.
X
I think we can look at this season from two viewpoints;

A) What we see is what we get.

That the individual writers seem to have been confined each to their own little cubicle and have each written an episode according to their own pleasure, with little awkward tit-bits thrown in, such as Dean's new allergy to cats or the ancient angel sigils whose power can now be cancelled by painting a black X over them.
This season is full of these little moments and are as annoying as the big problems at times.
X
I've gone a little off track, so as I mentioned this could just be a choppy confused season with no real thread of continuity between the various episodes; and that the rest of the season will continue in the exact same way.
or
B)

All this seemingly poor continuity and confusion made up of partial plotlines, ie., Sam not looking for Dean ( which for me is a huge mistake on the writers' part which has negatively affected the entire season ) Benny, Amelia, Don, Naomi, Men Of letters, trials etc, is a very clever dissimulation to keep all the viewers guessing, but that eventually all the threads will be woven together to give us a perfectly logical canvas explaining everything that has happened to our complete satisfaction, thus making those first 10 episodes acceptable to those, like myself , who can't accept them as far as the brother tension is concerned.
I'm afraid I subscribe to the first option but I so hope I'm mistaken.
X
Only time will tell but the bottom line which I think any writers have to bear in mind is that they have to turn out exciting coinvolging logical episodes if they want to keep the viewers glued to the tv screen.
X
As far as big reveals are concerned, it seems a bit late in the season now as there are still a few more MOTWeek eps to come which don't usually reserve big reveals.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2013-03-08 07:38
isleofskye, I just wanted to comment on what you said about the angel sigils. I figured that painting the X on them breaks them, kind of like when you break the outer circle of a Devil's Trap it basically becomes useless against demons?
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2013-03-08 07:52
Replying to paintedwolf.
Hi!
My problem with the sigils is because in past episodes this solution has never been used.
The angels themselves could have done that many a time, for example in the episode where Pamela turned the brothers into ghosts, Castiel used them to enter a building because it was covered with anti-angel sigils and he couldn't. If it was this easy why didn't Castiel simply spray a cross on them. It just seems a too simple way to neutralise such powerful sigils and I include it in the strange little bits of new canon that have been introduce this year
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2013-03-08 08:00
Yeah, you're probably right on that one, actually. When I watched the episode that was just my thought on how it worked, but I didn't really think further than that, in terms of what they've done in the past.
Unless angels aren't allowed to do that, just like demons can't break a devil's trap if they're stuck inside?
It's probably just they introduced it cause they needed it for the ep, but I have this habit of trying to find ways to explain inconsistencies , I guess :-*
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-03-08 08:17
I think the problem is that some of the sigils are on the inside of the building & until they are all destroyed the angel can't enter... that was my understanding. In that scene Sam & Dean had to destroy all four sigils before Castiel could get in.

I could be wrong, but that was my understanding and that would apply to the episode where the boys were ghosts if there were also sigils inside the building.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2013-03-08 07:31
I have a feeling we'll be getting some reveals or a reveal by the end of the season, but since we know we're coming back for season 9, I think Carver and the team might hold something back for next season. After all, they need something (probably utterly torturous) to put in this season's cliffhanger.
Oh, and I think we're getting 23 this year too, but I'm not 100% sure.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2013-03-07 13:00
Actually I/m not averse to the idea of Amelia being pregnant by Sam. It opens up a whole new realm of possiblities with the demons and angels and vessels and stuff, that if ,done correctly could make for some interesting tv. But no Jump The Shark moments please! And also as long as it meant Amelia didn't have to be in the picture. (Also I just love watching the guys interact with children and babies. It's adorable!)

I'm one of the few people who really liked Lisa and Ben. i even liked Becky (yeah she was more than a little rapey) but I still liked her. They at least weren't boring.
LeahMae
# LeahMae 2013-03-07 14:11
Oh, the idea give me chills (not the good kind). Having a baby in the show would definitely be a JTS moments for me. Can't have it in the back seat, can't leave it at a strangers house, can't have it and a nanny at the bat cave, so Amelia would have to be involved. Yeesh. Not to mentiom it would be a target of their enemies always.

I agree with you about Lisa & Ben. I also love how they interact with children but a Samielia baby, please no. :-)
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-07 15:06
Quote:
Having a baby in the show would definitely be a JTS moments for me. Can't have it in the back seat, can't leave it at a strangers house, can't have it and a nanny at the bat cave, so Amelia would have to be involved.
I don't want a baby any more than you do, and I agree it would be a JTS moment. But they could have it kidnapped by Crowley and/or Naomi and never seen again until the series ends. Season one was the search for Dad, season 9 can be the search for Sam's baby. Season 10 can play off of the idea that time moves differently in Hell than earth and the kid can come out being around 20 years old having been raised in Hell for 2 weeks earth time. This would make season 9 about family and make things personal again. This would be made especially hard if Crowley grabbed the baby and/or a pregnant Amelia and they were sealed behind the closed forever gates of Hell. Then in season 10 we can all wonder if Sam's child is good or evil ending with Dean having to kill Sam's kid because everything Sam touches turns bad and Sam has always been a minion for the demons so his child is also. The show loves to show SAM as being the one on the dark side.

Now I don't think I would WATCH this scenario, but it is one way for Sam to have a kid and still avoid changing diapers. It saves a lot of money on shoes and totally gets around toilet training. I have no belief that this set of writers is the least bit interested in really giving Sam a storyline. Even if my wild prediction comes true, we will hear DEAN go on and on and on about how bad he feels about losing baby (Mary/John depending on sex) while Sam says nothing.
Super
# Super 2013-03-07 16:51
LOL, percy. I like the cut of you jib (or how goes it). Your sarcastic remarks always rile me up :D

But ugh, that scenario is just...no. It was shite in Angel and I don't have the confidence in these current writers to put any originality in that kinda writing (sans BE and JC)...

I hope and pray that Amelia is not pregnant, in fact it shall be my mantra for the rest of the season.

*No babies, no babies, no babies*

The Impala shall be the only 'baby' on Show.
st50
# st50 2013-03-07 16:57
Quote:

*No babies, no babies, no babies*

The Impala shall be the only 'baby' on Show.
All right, now! All together!
Let's hear it, people! On 3....
1....2....3....

*No babies, no babies, no babies*

The Impala shall be the only 'baby' on Show

:lol:
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-07 17:02
No babies!
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2013-03-08 07:41
No babies!
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-03-08 19:10
Quote:
Quote:

*No babies, no babies, no babies*

The Impala shall be the only 'baby' on Show.
All right, now! All together!
Let's hear it, people! On 3....
1....2....3....

*No babies, no babies, no babies*

The Impala shall be the only 'baby' on Show

:lol:
Soulless Sam got around quite a bit; if he had any kids, would they be soulless as well :-)
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-08 20:19
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:

*No babies, no babies, no babies*

The Impala shall be the only 'baby' on Show.
All right, now! All together!
Let's hear it, people! On 3....
1....2....3....

*No babies, no babies, no babies*

The Impala shall be the only 'baby' on Show

:lol:
Soulless Sam got around quite a bit; if he had any kids, would they be soulless as well :-)
No babies! No soulless babies!! No union-between-a n-angel-and-a-d emon babies!!!

None. I am firm on this. This is me being firm --> :-|
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-07 19:00
I agree no babies.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-08 12:44
No babies while the show is on the air. I would like them to have kids in like a epilogue, I'll admit.
Ale
# Ale 2013-03-08 13:50
Quote:
I would like them to have kids in like a epilogue, I'll admit.
Yes, that would be nice! :D
Ale
# Ale 2013-03-07 15:20
Sorry, but what JTS means?
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-03-07 15:23
Quote:
Sorry, but what JTS means?
Jump the Shark :-)
Ale
# Ale 2013-03-07 15:44
Oh, thank you, Sharon! :-)
Now I can agree with the comment above: Samelia baby = JTS.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-07 19:02
I'd probably stop watching if Amelia winded up pregnant. I just have ZERO interest in that idea, and I would hate for Sam to be tied down to such a boring person for the rest of his life.
E
# E 2013-03-07 20:47
Maybe she could end up dead and Don could die again? then it would be just Sam, Dean and the baby....yes, I AM mean.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-08 00:01
That would be horrible! A channel turning idea for me. Haha!
E
# E 2013-03-08 06:38
Two men and a baby. No?
LeahMae
# LeahMae 2013-03-08 07:08
A thousand times NOOO. :)
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2013-03-08 08:07
No, E. No babies.
Don't make me break out the Dr. Pepper. ;-)
LeahMae
# LeahMae 2013-03-08 18:41
:-) She needs a good dunking in a vat of Dr. Pepper (cherry) to snap her out of this!!!!
E
# E 2013-03-08 20:35
Ah! That would be torture! OK no babies and NO Dr. Pepper! :-x
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-08 21:34
***evil laugh*** :D
Amy
# Amy 2013-03-08 09:23
Quote:
I'd probably stop watching if Amelia winded up pregnant. I just have ZERO interest in that idea, and I would hate for Sam to be tied down to such a boring person for the rest of his life.
Honestly, If there was a kidnapped baby and they showed Sam desperate and angry adn grief stricken to find his child....the MOW of the week filler episodes wouldn't make sense. For the boys to suddenlly be ok or hanging out with Charlie and Larping. Having fun.

I just can't see sam not worrying about what is happening to his child, that it might be being groomed to take his place as Lucifers vessel or something. And then of course Carver will try to try to make it all about Deans abanondoment issues abd Sam is just a bad uncaring brother.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-08 10:31
Sadly I do think a kidnapped baby story would become about the search for Dean's nephew, not the search for Sam's child.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-08 17:47
LOL :-)

Touche
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-08 17:46
Agreed! That's why Sam cannot have a child. I don't see Dean abandoning his child either. He just got on Zeus for ditching his kid. Both boys would have to be active, present parents, and that simply can't happen on this show.
st50
# st50 2013-03-07 18:29
.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-07 18:35
I'm not surprised. Sad, but not surprised.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-07 19:00
I'm not surprised either, Percy. The story never felt like it was set up for some huge twist or anything. It was exactly as it was presented to be: Sam just decided to stop hunting.

I do feel bad for those who were expecting more though. The story will always be a crappy one, IMO.
st50
# st50 2013-03-07 19:29
.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-07 19:49
So am I. I agree that not dealing with the resentments brought up in Southern Comfort is bad, because, yet again, Dean brings up grievances and Sam is not permitted to answer. It just give credence to Dean's saying what a bad brother Sam is. I'm so sick of the non-viewpoint of Sam.

The Press release for episode 18 is up www.spoilertv.com/2013/03/supernatural-episode-818-freaks-and.html. It sounds interesting, but if it goes the way I expect, I can't see the season being saved for me.
Super
# Super 2013-03-08 03:50
Hmmm... written by Adam Glass.

I have a feeling it will go the way you expect, when has Dean ever been wrong?

Oh well, maybe I should put on my optimist hat, for a change.

Maybe this will be the episode where he nails it/ gets it close enough/ won't totally feck it up?!

:D
Amy
# Amy 2013-03-08 08:16
Oh dear god. Dean is suspicious so the guy must have evil intentions. Hope Benny eats Krissy with hot sauce.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-03-18 02:41
I am expecting nothing less from Victor
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-03-08 09:13
Quote:
So am I. I agree that not dealing with the resentments brought up in Southern Comfort is bad, because, yet again, Dean brings up grievances and Sam is not permitted to answer. It just give credence to Dean's saying what a bad brother Sam is. I'm so sick of the non-viewpoint of Sam.
Horrible writing so far and not expecting it to get better. Except for a few epis, S8 has sucked for me and doesn't sound like it's getting any better. This ALL rests on JC's shoulders and I am disappointed in his interpretation of what SPN is. Apparently he doesn't know who Sam or Dean are.
love2boys
# love2boys 2013-03-07 20:13
Kevin Parks could have been "lying" to keep spoilers out? Just speculating.
E
# E 2013-03-07 20:49
That's what I thought... how do we know that he is in any way telling the truth? I guess we'll have to wait and see :-)
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-07 23:01
What's he going to say? "Well now, in the big reveal we have planned" Maybe there are no big surprises but he is certainly not going to share if they do!
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-03-08 04:45
Quote:
Kevin Parks could have been "lying" to keep spoilers out? Just speculating.
Could be but to be honest I do think we have moved on with the story. I was one of those who hoped we would get more than one sentence syllable's like 'I ran ' and my 'world imploded' but didnt expect it. I think the flashback's with Amelia were all style with no real substance and Sam not looking has reflected back on him but I am not sure they went into the sl seeing it has a problem .
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2013-03-08 05:02
Replying to Sharon
x
I feel I have to agree with you here.
I think that the writers didn't give more than a superficial thought to Sam not looking for Dean, believing that simply stating it without giving adequate reasons would have been accepted by fans at face value, and that the Amelia story line would have been more warmly received.

Neither of these things happened but I think that for the writers there's no more to be said on the subject. :(
E
# E 2013-03-08 06:49
Quote:
I think that the writers didn't give more than a superficial thought to Sam not looking for Dean, believing that simply stating it without giving adequate reasons would have been accepted by fans at face value, and that the Amelia story line would have been more warmly received.
But why would they be so foolish as to do that? Everyone connected with this show KNOWS how invested the fans are. This show has re-written the book on fan involvement and interaction. At Misha's first convention (NJ 2010 maybe?) he he asked Jared for some advice on answering questions from fans. He asked if he didn't know the answer should he just make something up... to which Jared replied "God no! Don't make it up! They'll know, they always know all the details." Supernatural fans are legendary for knowing all the facts of every episode, and intimate details from BTS. JC may be new as Supernatural show runner, but he isn't new to show running in general or to how Supernatural works. I can't believe that he would be so careless as to do something so stupid as to underestimate his audience especially when he is in the position of being the new show runner and having to "prove himself" AND being aware of how things are with the fans of this show.
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2013-03-08 07:08
Replying to E
X
That's a good question.
The answers could be that Carver was honestly invested in this Samelia Bean, brother tension idea and thought it would be well accepted, betting wrongly; or perhaps as the show is in its eighth year the opinion of the fans isn't as important as it was, so it wasn't as urgent to have a story-arc as tight or well paced as in the past.

In fact there were many more unkind objections made to Sera Gamble when she was in charge than there has been to Carver who so far IMO has not done better than she has.
X
Or again , these writers have been creating stories for many years now, perhaps their creative vein for this show has just worn out. Who knows?
X
However I would like nothing better than to have a global explanation for everything, but I just see it as being difficult.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-08 10:48
Even if Carver didn't see the problem with Sam not looking for Dean, the outcry was immediate, loud and persistent. The last few episodes have suddenly turned the car around and the brotherly bond is back, yet fandom is still talking about Sam's choice not to look for Dean. If he wasn't aware when he started how controversial this storyline was, he must be aware by now and he should address it.

SG had her problems as a show runner, but I always felt the amount and depth of the criticism toward her was undeserved. If SG had tried this story people would have been calling for her head, but for the most part JC is not getting the type of flack that she did.
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2013-03-08 11:32
Replying to percysowner.
X
I agree and I have to say that the outcry began even previous to the episode being aired; it started from the first time it was mentioned, I think at Comic-Con.
I know that I was completely taken aback from that very moment and my disappoinment with that decision has never changed.
X
There still would be time to address it if TPTB really wished. I think most people would even settle for an awkward reason as long as shows that Sam didn't look for Dean because he was stopped from doing so by a force outside his will.
X
It's just so annoying that there hasn't been the least concern by the writers to explain Sam's actions and they have left us with this OOC Sam who would never have acted like that, never!
X
Sera wrote some great episodes and she understood the brotherly caring bond. I don't think she deserved all the criticism she received.
Maybe she could have done things better but the difference is that I can watch all of season six and most of season seven without problems, but here we're talking about a half of an entire season which I never want to watch again, because the brothers using those hurting words and actions with each other wound me so much.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-08 07:41
E, I think Isleofskye is right. From all accounts, Carver genuinely wanted to explore the "what if" of Sam NOT looking for Dean. I never thought he was being cagey or deceptive when he spoke of that. It is the 8th season. He said he already knew the story of Sam looking for Dean; he said he wanted to look at the "what if" of Sam not looking. He wanted to try something new, and it failed miserably. I know some enjoyed the story, but the majority of viewers seemed to dislike it or were hoping it would improve.

His experiment failed largely because the story was left vague. Having Sam say he ran or his world imploded is NOT a story. It worked for some but a lot of us wanted and needed more to accept Sam's OOC decision. We didn't get much of anything in the way of an actual story, IMO.

IMO, Carver overestimated the Sam/Amelia connection and the audience's potential interest in that story. It also didn't help that Sam was written in a very OOC way with no explanation or exploration. It was just a bad story from beginning to end.
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2013-03-08 08:20
Replying to lala2.
X
If Sam's hellucinations had been kept at a supportable level as in the first half of season seven and the memories hadn't been whisked away by Castiel , then that would have been a very valid reason for Sam not looking for Dean, the disappearance of Dean in the laboratory pushing Sam over the edge and making him unable to continue hunting; but having given us no reason for why Sam acted as he did just leaves a bad taste in one's mouth.
I would have felt the same way if it had been Sam who had been sent to Purgatory and Dean hadn't bothered looking for Sam.
It's just something that neither of the brothers would have done and that's why it's so hard to accept.
nightsky
# nightsky 2013-03-07 21:18
Quote:
Kevin P was asked on twitter to clarify if we'd see what happened between the end of S7 warehouse and the first flashbacks.... Those missing weeks/months. His reply....
"time has been played with so much between seasons, time is a suggestion. The main point is Sam stopped hunting."

To me, that brings an end to the speculation. Sam stopped hunting. Period. End of story.
Wait...am I missing something? We know and accept that Sam stopped hunting. That is not distressing in and of itself. I think this is a reasonable non-spoiler answer from Parks because it doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know. Our issue is WHY Sam stopped hunting. Because he couldn't? Because he was preoccupied with angels? Because....
If Parks is saying they don't have a backstory as to why Sam stopped hunting, I am going to bury my head in the sand. I cannot even hear there will be no reason at all. That is too depressing.
st50
# st50 2013-03-07 21:30
.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-08 12:13
He better have been being cagey or completely lying his ass off. (which I fine with. I was perfectly fine with the lies about Bobby) Because I'm with nightsky, the alternative is too depressing. I seriously am going to have trouble watching the show next season if JC could something this destructive to the show on a whim.
Navii
# Navii 2013-03-07 23:27
This is just a laundry list of things I would like to see happen in Supernatural. This is all just personal opinion/preference.

1. Amelia - I don't think fans really have a problem with Sam getting a love interest (there was a lot of excitement about it before the season premiere if I recall correctly). I just think we would prefer a well written love interest.

That being said, personally, in my opinion she's a little one dimensional and there was little to no chemistry. I think the show should drop her. I know that I wouldn't miss her at all.

2. Bromance - In the beginning of the show, it's established that both of the boys have trust issues due to the death of their mother and abandonment of their father. It spills over and affects their brotherly bond, especially because it's implied that they haven't seen each other in years and Dean would clearly see Sam's thirst for college as abandonment. Plus, they're young to boot. That all makes sense, I'm fine with this.

since then, they've both seen heaven and hell. Suffered for one another. Met angels. Seen the garden of Eden. Uncovered secrets about their family. Met the Devil. Dealt with the death of everyone they've loved. Faced Death (literally). Fought dragons....

Do you see where I'm going with this? Come on now. I'm not saying that they should have a perfect bond. But, seriously, they should trust each other a LITTLE more now then they did then. Regardless of what else has transpired. They need to stop relying on this as a major plot device. (I have a theory that it's because of a lack of side characters)

3. Side characters - I don't care what they have to do to resurrect Bobby but they should really get on that. At this point I don't even care if it makes sense. He could literally walk across the screen and shout "God rose me from the dead" with no other explanation and I literally wouldn't bat an eye at it.

If Supernatural is really going to end at season 10 then JC really doesn't have time to reconstruct the world from scratch and tell a compelling story at the same time.

Also, you know what would really make my season 8? Gabriel. Literally for no other reason other than I like the character and it would make me happy. A little humor never hurt the show.

Also Death, just because.

Side note: Why kill off Samandriel and Grandpa Wichester? You're ALREADY hurting for recurring characters.

4. Sam - looked for Dean. Whether the show ever adresses it again or not we all know that that's the only way the character makes sense. They should really just own up to it.

5. Castiel - *Insert slash girl fantasy here*

6. Humor - You know what's really been missing from the show? One of the reasons why it feels so empty? The inside jokes. - I learned it from the pizza man, ghostfacers, random talks about slash, fight the fairies, I lost my shoe - this is what made for good filler. Where did all of that go? It was the show's connection to the fan base. It needs to come back.

P.S. Loved the French Mistake (One of the best episodes of that season). Weren't we promised a follow up to that? I would certainly love to see it. They wouldn't even need Misha to do it. He's dead in that universe.

7. Random plot holes I would love to have answered - Where's god? What happened to Chuck? He was a main character, even if you're going to diminish his role to prophet in the mythology, you can't just say he's dead and expect not to have people wonder. Ash said he couldn't find any of the Winchesters in heaven, where are they (there's a potentially interesting plotline there, especially if they're going to close off heaven)? Aren't Sam and Dean still powerful empty vessels, why has everybody else stopped caring about that? What about Adam? Surely the angels care about what happens to Michael, even if the explanation for that is just that they never want him to be released. What, no renegade Crowley hating demons want to release Lucifer again....Riiiii iiight. I believe that.

And finally, what about the anti-christ? Extremely powerful entity just waiting to be controlled by either side. No one is looking for that child?

WHEW! I feel better :)
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-03-08 09:19
No slash in any form. EVER!!!!!!!
st50
# st50 2013-03-08 09:15
Bare with me here, because this sounds like repeat, but I think it's clarification (at least in my mind :lol: )...

Bottom line, for me, what would make season 8 better is addressing what changed from the first 7 seasons.

It's not totally about Sam being ooc (although he is) or my disappointment with the Sam/Amelia storyline (although I am). Or not being able to see that their relationship was not all sunshine and roses. Or that Benny's a better brother (he's not) or Dean always being right (he's not) or whatever....

The problem boils down to this.
The basic premise of Supernatural, for 7 years, has been that these two brothers have an unnatural weak spot for each other. It's been used by angels and demons and MOTW alike. It's been used to change the natural order, imperil the world, and save the world. It's damned souls, saved souls, endured incredible torture - physical and mental - but it has always been a fixture of the show. It has been the reason these two carry on, do what they do, survive.

Season 8 begins, and all that changed. It's very simply indicated that one brother left the other and walked away. There was grief, sorrow, anguish (maybe) ... but whatever has been implied, that unnatural, incredible bond that carried the show for 7 years broke. Bottom line. One brother did not even try to find/rescue/sav e the other.

HOW that happened hasn't been investigated at all. Some have accepted it, some have not. Some feel the brothers are getting back together - Personally, as I tried to state somewhere above, I think it's a sorry reflection of what once was there.

Regardless of cries of character assassination or poor writing or fan-imagined fixes, the bottom line for me is that the basic premise was shot down, and that hasn't been even acknowledged on the show. Wherever they go, from this point on, something vital has been damaged.

JMO
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-08 10:38
That is a great way to sum up my feelings. By having Sam not look, by having Dean bring up all those old resentments the show has broken the relationship and they have not SHOWN why this happened, at least from Sam's POV. Dean's outburst under the penny reminded us of why Dean may think of Benny as a better brother, but there has been no explanation of why Sam's devotion to Dean went up in a puff of smoke. Less than one year earlier Sam faced enormous pain and insanity just so Dean wouldn't be alone. Then 9 months later he's shrugging his shoulders and getting a dog and a girl? The bond between Sam and Dean was dysfunctional and messy and codependent and it was the heart of the show. If they are going to change that bond I need to see more than they have shown as to why.
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2013-03-08 12:00
Replying to st50.
X
You summed things up perfectly.
The writers took a wondeful unique caring relationship between two brothers who lived and died to keep the other safe and free from suffering, and they scientifically dissected it, making it impossible to put the pieces back together exactly as they were before.
X.
While Sam's OOC 'not looking' is the most obvious, even Dean has been made OOC.
Sam has always been his number one concern and I don't care if he spent 100 years in Purgatory with Benny, he would never have said that Benny was a better brother than Sam.
Sam spent 180 years in the Cage but when he got out his only concern was getting back to Dean.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-08 12:05
st50, you said it perfectly. The whole basis for most of the main storylines in this series has been these two brothers weak spot for each other. Because that was established, the audience was willing to buy that Dean would sell his soul. That Sam would lose it completely and drink demon blood to seek revenge (as well as try to exchange his own soul for Dean's). That Dean wouldn't be will to let go even though Sam had release Lucifer. That Sam would be able to overcome Lucifer because of how he felt about Dean. That Sam was willing to sacrifice himself. That Dean would be desperate enough to make a deal with death. That Sam would fight to get out of his own mind, regardless of the damage it would do because he could leave his brother out there alone. That Sam would keep fighting, despite the hallucinations for the same reason. That he was ABLE to do it because Dean was stone #1. Hell even this season when Dean wanted to take on the trials because he wanted Sam to live and have this great long life. And Sam insisting he would do it because he wanted that for both of them.

If the audience didn't believe it that bond then none of those storylines would have worked. Our reaction problem would have been like Lisa, "I love my sister but I wouldn't sell my soul for her." If you think about what kind of weirdos would do most of these things.

But we believed them because they have established that bond over 8 seasons. Hell really over 2 since I totally bought Dean would sell his for Sam, despite the fact I would consider the move moronic on most shows. Because that type of bond has not been established. But instead of rolling my eyes, I was crying. Because OF COURSE Dean would do this, he HAD to save his Sammy.

So if they are going to go against something that is THAT fundamental to the show than they need to earn that storyline. Just like when Dean was willing to agree to let Sam jumped, they had to earn that, because it went against EVERYTHING we knew of the character. Because there was no way S2 Dean would have let Sam spend eternity being tortured. And there is no way S7 Sam would not look for Dean. So if they are going to go that route, than they NEED to SHOW us how Sam got to that point. To me, it is not even negotiable.
st50
# st50 2013-03-08 12:35
Thanks for the response, percy, isleofskye and KELLY.
So glad I'm not alone in this one.
:-)
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-08 17:01
:lol:

kelly,
yes to every single word...very eloquently put.
Hades
# Hades 2013-03-08 11:08
For me

-The trials need to be epic

The first trial was pretty tame imo, I expect the remaining two to be a lot harder and even maybe drawn out a little. Also at least one of the trials needs to take place in a Sam centric episode (since the first one was mainly Dean centric), it needs to be hard for Sam pysically, emotionally and intellectualy. These past weeks have shown Sam to be probably the best hunter there is so now the trials need to test him.

As long as there is plenty of storyline for Sam I'll be happy.

Oh and please let this season all come together in a cool and satisfactory manner with a good set up for next season.
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-08 15:39
My take on this is that either:

1) You can have Sam make the decision not to continue with the life, try to find 'ordinary' and make cryptic remarks which don't clarify whether he felt absolutely certain that Dean was dead ... and leave the audience to work it out for themselves.
OR
2)You can have Dean decide that a brother in arms under extreme circumstances is someone on a level with his brother who has had his back 100% for many years. Have him become that close to a 'monster' who must inevitably revert to his nature ... and tell the audience they can take or leave this logic.
OR
3)You can have Dean blame Sam episode after episode for not looking for him, and you can have Dean bring up all sorts of things that are apparently simmering away under the surface and throw them at Sam, who clearly believes he means it ... and abandon the audience to ... well, just abandon the audience, no payoff.
OR
4)You can have a story about a redeemable monster which contradicts everything the show has ever said (up to and including ghost!Bobby) about monsters and their lack of free will (not including Witches, Demons or Angels here).

But seriously writers do you have to throw all of them at us at once and then drop them all as if we should just forget them?

For me if they want to move it mainstream and just make it a story about hunters having fun on the road then fair enough (though, you know, whatever) but don't add angst you haven't earned with the storyline and then JUST DROP IT for the next episode!

What puzzles me is if they are doing this for a new audience why are they including all this impenetrable emotional complexity and if they are trying to include the deeply invested why are they messing with us if they don't intend to give us any payoff?

I know I am not saying anything new here, just getting it off my chest :-)

EDIT: to say, I don't mind if you just fix one of the above, but even one would be good. Southern Comfort would be favorite as far as I am concerned!
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-08 19:07
Hi Eilf, great little mini-rant!! I agree completely. Yes SC would be a good one to go with if nothing else. I dislike that spectre thing more and more as time goes on. :P
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-08 20:12
Thanks :D I feel much better now!
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-08 17:28
you know what i've noticed, that there are no interviews or spoilers like we usually get. not even mike ausiello stuff. and the interviews we did get, not one question, not one about what sam did during those two months prior to hitting the dog. hell there haven't been any questions asked by the press about anything regarding the first half...sam not looking is pretty big stuff don't you think and not one interviewer asks the question what's the deal with sam? i find that quite peculiar..if i didn't know any better i would say that those questions weren't allowed to be asked...just saying and in regards to what kevin parks said...he said nothing we all didn't already know. but now fear and panic is taking over and assumptions are being made and people are jumping to conclusions.... all based on parks simply stating something about time.

jared was concerned enough about what carver was doing with sam that he spoke to him. from what i gather whatever carver said to jared comforted him. jared also stated at one point that sam not looking for dean was a misunderstandin g and there have been comments by jared and jc that there was more to the story....i keep hanging on to that.
E
# E 2013-03-08 21:00
Quote:
jared was concerned enough about what carver was doing with sam that he spoke to him. from what i gather whatever carver said to jared comforted him. jared also stated at one point that sam not looking for dean was a misunderstanding and there have been comments by jared and jc that there was more to the story....i keep hanging on to that.
This is very interesting!! Where do you hear this stuff?!! I never seem to be able find juicy little did-bits like this. Although, I knew Jared was worried about Sam's direction from an indirect comment he made at the beginning of the season. The interviewer asked something like "So, Sam....this was an unusual choice, and a little controversial." (something like that anyway) to which Jared replies "as we knew it would be," then he kind of grimaces in a way that showed he was uncomfortable. Maybe it was one of the Carina McKenzie interviews??? Anyhoo.. this makes me feel better with the implication that there was still more to come. Keeping the faith!
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-08 23:05
E, I have to admit these kind of things give me hope. I really want someone to ask this weekend when the two of them know the big mystery arcs for the season(this was another of the question I was going to ask a the Chicago Con, but didn't get to the mike). Obviously they can't tell if there is one this year. But if we knew we Jared knew about the DB or Jensen knew about what his father whispered to him we might have a better indication of what he knew when he said this.

Although really I'd like to know anyway. Because I like to know if they just tell them "look horrified" or "start acting erratic" or do they tell them the mystery and the actors choose how to portray it.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-14 08:58
I believe they just tell them, "Look horrified" or "Give your brother a weak hug." I don't think they let them in on the secret, which greatly affects the performance.
Amy
# Amy 2013-03-14 09:40
Quote:
I believe they just tell them, "Look horrified" or "Give your brother a weak hug." I don't think they let them in on the secret, which greatly affects the performance.
I just dont understand that at all. wnhy keep your actors in the dark about the very charectors they play. If you want the most honest, real portrayal i would think you would give each actor as much info about their charectors backstory and motivation and history as possible.

Sam is in the dark about Dean adn vice versa motivations etc so Jared and Dean shouldn't have the others info. That would also make the charectors come across as more hoinest and real.

But Jared, Jensen and etc...etc... all should haver a complete bible (as the writers know it) of where their charector has been. This is extremly important especiially as the writers are doing the whole unfolding mystery thing. Sam has already lived what the writers have planned...so JAred should know it as well so he can play Sam in the most truthful way he can.

It just smacks of laziness ont he writers part....like maybe they have a general idea but nothing concrete from episode to episode...so they keep the actors in the dark so they caqn change their ideas on a whim.

This i think iis why i hate the whole perception thing. It doesn't work because perception is based on too many what ifs...especxial ly regards to Sam.

I mena Dean....hell Deans perception was he left Cas behind to safew his own skin. As soon as that was introduced everyone and their dry cleaner knew it was a false perception. If something caued by the actions of someone else goes wrong Dean twists things to make it HIS fault, Everyone knew fron the get go Dean would be 'innocent'.

Sam on the other hand.....the writers write him so vague...the mystery that perception is....well...wh at they show is usually what we get. Whihc usually is always Sam being wrong. Sam falling apart from grief is so very human...but the perception is being Human is wrong or bad.

Castiel/benny ......obviously the perception is the supernatural creature is worth more annd better then humans....is deserving far more understnading/f oregiveness then a human. The writers have manipulted the viewers through Dean to see the SUpernatural more rootable then HUmans. That they are more family then family is....more worthy then humans.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-14 13:26
lala2 and Amy, what's weird is I just saw a video of the Vegas con where Jared (and Jensen seem to agree)was talking about not liking a lot of stage direction in the scripts. Saying they should let the actors make the decisions on how to play what they write and I'd actually taken a screenplay writing class where they said the same thing, which is what made me wonder. But in the case of these mysteries, do the writers make an exception or do the have to tell the actors what's up in order for the actor to decide how to play it. Jared didn't specifically address this, so I still don't think we know but I did find that interesting.

Because I agree Amy, I think they really should always tell the actors about these things so their performance can reflect that. Jensen's look was perfect in that episode and when you rewatch the S4, you can really see signs of Sam being affected even in the first episodes. But definitely in the ones after Sam agrees to start drinking DB again, even before we knew.

So I was wondering if Jared knew and was subtly putting indications in throughout. Maybe he also did this season, because there was something just OFF and it's not like Jared just forgot how to play Sam. So I still really hoping this is a sign that there something up.

Or maybe he just assumed something was up because Sam would never have done that :sad:
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-14 13:52
Kelly, I guess I just have a hard time believing Jared knew the entirety of Sam's storyline and still chose to portray Sam the way he did. From what I've heard, they only know the "bare bones" stuff. For instance, Genevieve said she wasn't given the entire story until the end of the season. Maybe if she had known more about "Ruby," she could have inserted some nuances, etc. in the character. And I'm pretty sure Jensen said he didn't know the big secret in S2 either until he read the script.

I agree w/Amy that this has to be frustrating for the actors b/c they don't really know what's happening w/their characters. For example, I bet Jared didn't know Sam was soulless in the very beginning. They probably just told him to act very cold and detached from Dean.

But back to this season - why would Jared choose to be so indifferent and "blah" about Dean's return if he knew the whole story? It's like Sam honestly couldn't have cared less about Dean. That's the feeling I got, which is why I was shouting, "this is OOC crap" all over the place. Haha! And then there was the episode where Sam subtly hinted that Dean should just go hunt by himself. Again, he seemed completely uninterested in Dean or their relationship. It was all very off, and since the story didn't go anywhere (that I can see), I have to believe Jared was being directed in this manner. As you said, it's not like he suddenly forgot how to play Sam.

I don't know. Were any of these questions or concerns posed during this recent convention or his M&G?
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-14 14:21
lala2, the video I watched didn't have the whole con yet, she may post more later, so I don't know. Or I think Sweetondean may give a con report and she may address it.

And I really can't figure out what they knew when, which is why I would have loved someone to ask them. It was one of two questions I wanted to ask them at Chicago Con.

I keep hoping that Jared does know something and was doing this stuff in order to sell it. It helps me believe something is up.
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2013-03-09 03:33
Hi nappi!

I just want to add that I remember Jared saying something like 'aah this is where its heading, I didn't expect this, twist, sounds interesting' Those are not the exact same words from Jared, I don't remember them! But it was already in november? when I read Jareds interview. I also can't recall where I read it!

I was then waiting for this "twist" or "reveal" before or after the xmas hiatus! Nothing! I! might think now we will not get any revelations regarding Sam's missing time!

I would like to know when did you hear/read this about Jared and him concerned about Sam? Do you remember when you read it?


And about not answering or not asking those special questions about Sam "Why did Sam not look?" It can just be the fact that JC chose for doing a different take on Sam to fire on forced comflict between the brothers. tptb have just decided to gloss over this special question. Not answering directly about Sam's time is really maybe them thinking when they gloss over the Sam issues people will stop to asking and the issues people have with particular this choice about Sam's character dies slowly out eventually!

But I still think by myself there is something big missing from Sam's perspective. The season isn't whole! I don't count the last 7 episodes yet! Maybe they make this season whole for me....like it happened with S5. Without the last handful episodes and especially Swan Song I would feel the same with S5
E
# E 2013-03-08 21:03
I was just going through this thread again and had a thought about the current set up and the trials. We are all assuming that Sam is getting sick as a result of the trials he is doing, but what if there IS angel manipulation going on and Naomi is making Sam sick? Maybe Sam has an eye implant like Cas and his is making him sick, or Naomi and co. DON'T want the gates of hell to be closed for some reason and is making Sam sick so he'll fail the trials? Just a thinky thought.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-03-09 00:11
Quote:
Quote:
Those are my thoughts about what Sam went through and the reasons why I disagree he was put in a bad light by the writers. I felt for him.
I felt for him too :cry:

I'm sorry you went through something similar, Ale. Grief affects people differently and there is no right or wrong. Perhaps this is the reason why Sam's missing time is so contentious - we are all interpreting it in our own way based on our understanding of grief. The 3-4 months after I lost my father are a complete blur to me. I don't remember any details other than I managed to get out of bed, go to work, and come home each day. I'm sure the people at my work wondered what the hell my problem was, particularly as most of them didn't know I'd suffered a loss.

Anyhow, the way I see the rest of season 8 (in regard to Sam) is that we have two possible outcomes.

Option 1: There will be some sort of twist that will reveal more about Sam's time away from Dean. I know this is what a lot of people are hoping for.

Option 2: We will get no more about that time and we will have to accept OR not accept our 'own' interpretations of what happened.

I was having a chat with a friend on twitter last night and she said: "SPN fans are quite an astute bunch, able to pick up on the inferring and subtle hints".

I totally agree with this. Isn't it possible TPTB believed the fans know Sam well enough (having seen him lose Dean twice before) to know that he would be completely broken (and not have to spell it out once again). But, this time, believing Dean was dead, Sam chose to walk away rather than seek revenge. Remember, Carver also hinted we would see the brothers becoming more mature. Isn't this actually a sign of maturity? That Sam has become wiser after what happened to him in S4 and he chose a different path. Why do we have to see it? IMO, there is a very real possibility TPTB felt that they didn't need to spell this out. Time will tell, of course.

We all know that there are things scattered throughout the 8 fabulous seasons of Supernatural that could've been done better (no show is perfect). This year, perhaps they did need a few scenes to show (rather than imply) Sam's grief. But will Supernatural be ruined for me if we never see this, definitely NOT :D
But why should we have to guess how Sam feels when we are told repeatedly how Dean feels? Sam gets no dialogue to express himself But Dean does and so the show is from his POV which means the casual or new fans will beleive what he says is true. Especially when Sam doesn't get to tell Dean what he feels or what he actually did.
This builds up a lot of ill-will at best and hate at worst for one of the two main characters of the show.
IMO that is wrong and really bad story-telling. Both brothers should have their POV expressed by the character themselves so that they are not so hidden to the fans. That's been my main complaint in relation to Sam's character since S4.
I am happy for you that it doesn't spoil the season. But for me, it has so far and I'm not sure that JC will do anything more to fix this ghastly mistake. I have not enjoyed the season exept for a few episodes and that makes me feel really sad.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-09 09:12
you know i was going through the carver/jared interviews yesterday trying to find out where i read about jared's concerns. i still couldn't find it, but i know, i know i didn't make it up. it's somewhere. but here's some stuff i did watch again and read over.

jared gave an interview, from what looked like his kitchen, explaining that there would be a love interest between sam and amelia. what i found interesting is that everything he said...didn't happen. there was no loving relationship shown in the flashbacks. as a matter of fact, the flashbacks pretty much showed sam as disconnected from amelia. amelia would go on and on about her loss and her pain and sam would just lie there looking spaced out. i do not recall one fb that showed sam in love. so that interview was basically full of crap, whether jared realized that or not, i'm not sure. i mean it was before the show started. so that tells me that the boys really dont know much about what's going on until the script is in hand.

carver had gone on about the what if sam didn't look scenario because we all know he would have. but conveniently carver doesn't talk about sam's mental state or make anything clear. he goes on about the first 13 eps being told in flashbacks, although it wasn't 13. he talks about dean piling it up on sam as the interviewer asked how long sam was going to have to pay for not looking...then carver says something along the lines of this...he knows dean's been piling it on but noone gets to be a beaten dog for too long. he goes on about the boys realizing what they did that year and he mentioned that both boys would get their licks in. but this is what i was wondering...the part where he says that both boys realize what they did that year....does that mean sam finds out about dean letting benny inside him? or does sam eventually learn something that he did regarding dean and not realize he did it? it could go either way, it could go both ways....carver was deliberately being cagey. but then carver goes on talking about perception and the audience perception...he pretty much says that what we think we see may not be what we think we see..he seemed confident the audience would excited.

now all of these interviews were given before show began. as we have seen , carver was wrong about the positive reaction to the sam/amelia storyline. i feel confident enough to say that he is aware of the vast amount of negative feedback regarding sam's story. i believe i've seen a comment that jim michaels had to block his tweets because of the negative comments. you see, something happens along the way from when we first hear all these comic con and preshow interviews..... .feedback.
now if you recall, bela got very negative feedback back in s3 and i do believe it was part of the reason for her rapid demise. she's one character from the dead, that we haven't seen again.

i just watched the french mistake and the scene was on where they were talking about either starting over by cutting out the part where the boys talk on the hood of the car, in which fake singer replied, you read the hate mail, or go to freeze frame. that's a ben script, but the point i'm trying to make is that the writers are totally aware of what the fans demand. they know how acute we are. they can tell by the numbers when fans are happy and when they aren't. from what i've noticed regarding the numbers is that the second half has improved over the first half. wonder why that happened? :P

i think carver and co. are well aware of what the fans are clamoring for. now he might think as a writer that showing sam's grief subtley instead of blatantly like they do with dean is enough, but as a showrunner who pays attention to feedback, he can't be blind to the fact that for what seems to be the majority of the fandom, it's just not enough.

i don't think sam did anything wrong. i can totally understand how it's possible that sam simply broke. but the majority of the fandom needs more than i imploded and i ran and i can understand that and i agree with them as well. you can't have a show based on two characters, but only ever get to hear the pov from just one. it's poor storytelling and in my eyes, biased storytelling.

you see the problem i think with this season is that they go from point x to point z without point y....where's the y (why)? ...

example. sam alone at lab, truly and utterly alone to hitting a dog.....what happened in the middle? what was his mindset when he hit the dog? how did it happen? was sam crying at the wheel? has he not slept at all since dean disappeared and almost fell asleep? was survivors guilt too much and he just wanted to drive into a wall? see what i mean.....the middle.

and then we have it again....

dean sniping at sam for half of a season, angry that sam was living normal, assuming sam was happy and forgot about him to dean making speeches about how he wants sam to live normal and be happy....huh? what happened to the part where it explains how/why dean had a sudden change of heart. what led dean from point x to point z...again, where's the y? (why).. supernatural used to be a show about the journey, now it's just the show about the destination. i for one miss the journey.. :sad:

but alas, i still hold onto what carver said in his interview about perceptions being not necessarily what we think they are. i just feel that there have been quite a bit of inconsistencies and clues dropped that if it turns out there is a big reveal, we can go back and rewatch and go ah ha....

i found a spoiler that sort of reinforces my belief...i say sort of....the way i think, i see the spoiler as hopeful, others may not., hey E, the spoiler i read kind of makes your theory make sense, but again it's about the way my mind works. i don't want you to think i know some secret. :-)
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-09 10:32
Hi nappi, another great post! I love the "where's the Y? (why)?". I sometimes get what people here say they heard, and what I have actually read/heard in interviews , all jumbled together sometimes so it is gets hard to interpret what anything actually means. Everyone has their own slant, but I am remaining hopeful.
E
# E 2013-03-09 22:57
Hi nappi, another great post! I'd love to know what this spoiler is... any way you can tell me where you read it or provide a link?

I am holding out hope too for some type of big reveal (still) and I will be disappointed if nothing is done to salvage Sam's story, but I don't think it will ruin the whole season for me; there were many great things that went on, some great story for Dean, the introduction of Benny, the return of Cas etc.. this one aspect really digs at me though, and it will probably bother me on some level if it's not resolved.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-10 09:14
here's the spoQuote:
you know i was going through the carver/jared interviews yesterday trying to find out where i read about jared's concerns. i still couldn't find it, but i know, i know i didn't make it up. it's somewhere. but here's some stuff i did watch again and read over.

jared gave an interview, from what looked like his kitchen, explaining that there would be a love interest between sam and amelia. what i found interesting is that everything he said...didn't happen. there was no loving relationship shown in the flashbacks. as a matter of fact, the flashbacks pretty much showed sam as disconnected from amelia. amelia would go on and on about her loss and her pain and sam would just lie there looking spaced out. i do not recall one fb that showed sam in love. so that interview was basically full of crap, whether jared realized that or not, i'm not sure. i mean it was before the show started. so that tells me that the boys really dont know much about what's going on until the script is in hand.

carver had gone on about the what if sam didn't look scenario because we all know he would have. but conveniently carver doesn't talk about sam's mental state or make anything clear. he goes on about the first 13 eps being told in flashbacks, although it wasn't 13. he talks about dean piling it up on sam as the interviewer asked how long sam was going to have to pay for not looking...then carver says something along the lines of this...he knows dean's been piling it on but noone gets to be a beaten dog for too long. he goes on about the boys realizing what they did that year and he mentioned that both boys would get their licks in. but this is what i was wondering...the part where he says that both boys realize what they did that year....does that mean sam finds out about dean letting benny inside him? or does sam eventually learn something that he did regarding dean and not realize he did it? it could go either way, it could go both ways....carver was deliberately being cagey. but then carver goes on talking about perception and the audience perception...he pretty much says that what we think we see may not be what we think we see..he seemed confident the audience would excited.

now all of these interviews were given before show began. as we have seen , carver was wrong about the positive reaction to the sam/amelia storyline. i feel confident enough to say that he is aware of the vast amount of negative feedback regarding sam's story. i believe i've seen a comment that jim michaels had to block his tweets because of the negative comments. you see, something happens along the way from when we first hear all these comic con and preshow interviews......feedback.
now if you recall, bela got very negative feedback back in s3 and i do believe it was part of the reason for her rapid demise. she's one character from the dead, that we haven't seen again.

i just watched the french mistake and the scene was on where they were talking about either starting over by cutting out the part where the boys talk on the hood of the car, in which fake singer replied, you read the hate mail, or go to freeze frame. that's a ben script, but the point i'm trying to make is that the writers are totally aware of what the fans demand. they know how acute we are. they can tell by the numbers when fans are happy and when they aren't. from what i've noticed regarding the numbers is that the second half has improved over the first half. wonder why that happened? :P

i think carver and co. are well aware of what the fans are clamoring for. now he might think as a writer that showing sam's grief subtley instead of blatantly like they do with dean is enough, but as a showrunner who pays attention to feedback, he can't be blind to the fact that for what seems to be the majority of the fandom, it's just not enough.

i don't think sam did anything wrong. i can totally understand how it's possible that sam simply broke. but the majority of the fandom needs more than i imploded and i ran and i can understand that and i agree with them as well. you can't have a show based on two characters, but only ever get to hear the pov from just one. it's poor storytelling and in my eyes, biased storytelling.

you see the problem i think with this season is that they go from point x to point z without point y....where's the y (why)? ...

example. sam alone at lab, truly and utterly alone to hitting a dog.....what happened in the middle? what was his mindset when he hit the dog? how did it happen? was sam crying at the wheel? has he not slept at all since dean disappeared and almost fell asleep? was survivors guilt too much and he just wanted to drive into a wall? see what i mean.....the middle.

and then we have it again....

dean sniping at sam for half of a season, angry that sam was living normal, assuming sam was happy and forgot about him to dean making speeches about how he wants sam to live normal and be happy....huh? what happened to the part where it explains how/why dean had a sudden change of heart. what led dean from point x to point z...again, where's the y? (why).. supernatural used to be a show about the journey, now it's just the show about the destination. i for one miss the journey.. :sad:

but alas, i still hold onto what carver said in his interview about perceptions being not necessarily what we think they are. i just feel that there have been quite a bit of inconsistencies and clues dropped that if it turns out there is a big reveal, we can go back and rewatch and go ah ha....

i found a spoiler that sort of reinforces my belief...i say sort of....the way i think, i see the spoiler as hopeful, others may not., hey E, the spoiler i read kind of makes your theory make sense, but again it's about the way my mind works. i don't want you to think i know some secret. :-)
...
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-10 09:16
hey e, here's the link to the spoiler...like i said in my mind i came up with a scenario that makes for a cool twist.....eithe r way, should be interesting.

http://www.wetpaint.com/network/articles/supernatural-season-8-spoilers-
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-10 10:46
Nappi, the link does not work.
E
# E 2013-03-10 11:18
:eek:
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-10 11:58
The link won't work for me! What did it say? I really want to know.
Beverly
# Beverly 2013-03-10 12:37
lala2, it didn't work for me either so I went to the Entertainment news link and scolled through the page. You have to click the more button it is from two days ago. It is marked very clearly as a Supernatural Spoiler. It is big so I am not going to say anything else here.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-10 16:17
I've read this spoiler before, and I guess I don't understand why it's such a big deal. I don't get it :-)

I guess I'm missing something or I'm reading the wrong spoilers.
Beverly
# Beverly 2013-03-10 16:31
I highly expect Alice to post it in the spoiler section sooner than later and we can discuss it freely then. Otherwise it is awfully hard to discuss it here any further without spoiling the ones who try to avoid topics like this. :-)
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-10 16:33
Deleted - double post.
love2boys
# love2boys 2013-03-09 16:53
#st50 and eilf - may I ask what the dot alone means in a post? I have no idea. I know I am naive. Sorry.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-09 17:15
Hi- love2boys, Maybe percysowner can tell you if she is looking in? I am guessing it is a removed post but I don't really know for sure.
love2boys
# love2boys 2013-03-09 17:35
Thanks, Leah. A guess is more than I know! :lol:
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-09 18:06
:lol: In any event someone will answer your question.
nightsky
# nightsky 2013-03-09 18:34
I saw your question...it usually means that the fan has deleted everything they wrote. There really isn't any way to delete the entire post, so it is a way to fool the system. I use it if I change my mind about a comment, or someone is faster than me with an idea, etc...

Sorry to just drop in! I am following the live tweets from VegasCon and saw love2boys' question!
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-09 20:06
:-* I wish I had a REALLY good secret online meaning for that. I really do! But the honest truth is that if you change your mind about a post once it is posted you can change the information in the post but you can't delete it...and you can't leave it just blank. But you can change it to 'deleted' or something - or you can just leave a single character. A full stop is as good as anything, it just seemed less intrusive if someone is reading through the posts...

Sorry for the mundane-ness of the answer ...
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-09 20:36
Darn eilf, it would have been so cool if it had been a secret online language!! :sad:
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-09 20:41
I know ... sorry :sigh:

also

*
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-09 20:51
That's ok.

also

> :< ??
st50
# st50 2013-03-09 22:08
Yes, love2boys, it means the post was deleted by the person posting.
:-)
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-09 18:51
Thanks nightsky, I wasn't sure!!
st50
# st50 2013-03-09 20:58
VegasCon tweet shared on Tumblr:
Jared said in his meet & greet that he thought the sam/amelia storyline was weak and that he felt it was out of character for sam not to look for dean. he also said how much he DID like the dean/benny purgatory arc.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-10 10:27
Poor Jared! I can't say I'm surprised he didn't like the story. It was OOC, and it was weak. No wonder he was upset in the beginning. His character was being trashed and thrown under a bus for no reason.
E
# E 2013-03-10 11:23
Poor Jared indeed! I really felt during interviews at the start of the season that Jared was trying very hard to sell an idea that was making even him go "huh?" I'm glad that he gave it his all (as he always, always does) but yeah, I'm with the rest of you... some major fixing is in order!!!
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-10 11:56
Yeah, I really felt bad for him b/c I heard fans kept asking him about the plot, and what's the poor guy supposed to say? He knew there was no "real" reason Sam didn't look for Dean, and he knew how OOC that was, but he was stuck in the middle of the story so he tried to sell it the best way he could.

You'd think Carver would understand now how much of a FAIL his story was, but I don't know. I don't expect them to fix this mess they made, which is really sad!
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-09 22:52
and now the truth comes out....that's a hell of a lot different than his interview from his kitchen prior to the show starting.....

wonder what else we've been told isn't as true as we believe it to be.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-09 23:25
I'm sure a lot. Many of the positive interviews about Sam/Amelia were given early on, before the episodes were shot. I'm sure Jared believed that the story would be compelling and well told. He is a team player and I'm sure he trusts the writers. So when they told him they had a great story to tell about him leading a normal human life, I'm sure he gave them the benefit of the doubt. Now that the story has been told, he sees it for how it was written, not the potential. Frankly, I think the writers thought it would be a good story and then either couldn't write it strongly enough, or lost interest. What will be interesting is how they handle things from here on out. I, personally, need a fix to Sam not looking for Dean and I am encouraged that Jared agrees that the choice was not in character. I hope he can convince the writers to fix that part of this season.

I'm sure there may be other things we have been told that didn't work out the way they planned. I'm willing to give TPTB the benefit of the doubt and believe that they thought that certain stories would work and then they couldn't make them jell, for whatever reason. I hope they go back and look at the beginning of the season and clarify and change the Sam backstory.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-10 10:37
I learned to not really trust what these people say last year with Sera's whole "Sam's cure for the hallucinations will be worse than the hallucinations themselves." That did NOT pan out at all in any way, shape, or form. Maybe she had some good ideas of how to do that but it clearly was never executed on screen.

And I think I recall Jensen or some writer saying in S6 that Dean was more connected to Ben than Lisa but that never panned out either. We never saw Dean and Ben have a deep connection or anything.

It does please me that Jared didn't like the Sam/Amelia story, and that he recognized it was completely OOC for Sam to NOT look for Dean. Sam would never do that. I just wish Carver understood that. It would be nice to get that little bit "fixed." I'm not holding my breath though.
Amy
# Amy 2013-03-10 10:40
Percy, I couldn't find your other post but what i wanted to say fits here too. I agree with you and everything i try to express you say it much better and more eloquntly.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2013-03-11 11:07
So my understanding of all this discussion then is that the show made two huge mistakes.

Mistake One: we picked up Sam's story too long after Dean died. The writer's should really have picked up Sam's story exactly where it left off in season 7. They should have given us at least some idea of what was going on in Sam's brain before the dog incident.

And mistake two: Trying to tell Sam's story and feelings through Amelia's story. We have never met her, don't know her and don't care about this character or her grief. Using her emotions to express Sam's grief was a mistake. I can get behing him thinking Dean dead. I can get behind him not looking for Dean but the explanation given was no explanation at all and I can see how that's just not sitting at all well with a lot of people.

But I can live with that although I have pretty much avoided any episodes with Amelia flashbacks.

If later on there is something added or a different interpretation is overlaid on the flashbacks, I'm on board with that and may even revisit those episodes again. But not right now because the scenes between these two characters are just so painfully lackluster that it defies description. Sam and Amelia have all of the passion and chemistry of a pair of tit-mice, while we are constantly being told that they deeply love each other.

And even in Torn and frayed where there was a little more chemistry, Amelia still didn't come off looking too good. I still ended up hating her for her complete lack of moral character. "Oh, hey I'm willing to cheat on my husband with you if you stick around, cuz I can't make up my mind which one of you I want." Really? You want this guy to just accept half a life with you whereas before, he had all of your attention.

Not only that but given Sam's track record, we all knew this was not a relationship that was ever going to last ,so the writer's pretty much wasted out time presenting us with a relationship we don't care about with someone we don't care about that's not even going to be around to the end of the season anyway(and thank Chuck for that!)

I have no intention of stopping watching the show. I love the characters too much and the show always has the most intriguing premises. Every season has a handful of episodes that I just hate but overall it'still one of the best shows on TV. That it lasted so long is still remarkable to me given how the networks usually treat my favorite shows.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-11 11:49
Great post! I couldn't agree more w/your assessment, esp. these parts of your post:

Quote:
And mistake two: Trying to tell Sam's story and feelings through Amelia's story. We have never met her, don't know her and don't care about this character or her grief. Using her emotions to express Sam's grief was a mistake. I can get behing him thinking Dean dead. I can get behind him not looking for Dean but the explanation given was no explanation at all and I can see how that's just not sitting at all well with a lot of people.
Absolutely on point! I couldn't care less about Amelia, her pain, or her grief. I just didn't care about her. She should have been Sam's sounding board, not the other way around. Using her to tell Sam's grief was an EPIC FAIL. It didn't convey at all. She never seemed wracked w/grief, IMO. Neither one seemed to be grief-stricken. It just didn't work and was way too subtle.

And this is also a really good point:

Quote:
Not only that but given Sam's track record, we all knew this was not a relationship that was ever going to last ,so the writer's pretty much wasted out time presenting us with a relationship we don't care about with someone we don't care about that's not even going to be around to the end of the season anyway(and thank Chuck for that!)
Longterm romances simply do not work on this show. This show isn't set up for that so why bother? It failed w/Dean and Ben/Lisa, and not surprisingly, it failed w/Sam and Amelia. The relationship, IMO, did nothing for Sam. It didn't enlighten me about Sam or show me anything new about him. It was a colossal waste of time. Hahaha :-)
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-03-19 09:56
quote name="lkeke35"] So my understanding of all this discussion then is that the show made two huge mistakes.

Mistake One: we picked up Sam's story too long after Dean died. The writer's should really have picked up Sam's story exactly where it left off in season 7. They should have given us at least some idea of what was going on in Sam's brain before the dog incident.

And mistake two: Trying to tell Sam's story and feelings through Amelia's story. We have never met her, don't know her and don't care about this character or her grief. Using her emotions to express Sam's grief was a mistake. I can get behing him thinking Dean dead. I can get behind him not looking for Dean but the explanation given was no explanation at all and I can see how that's just not sitting at all well with a lot of people.

But I can live with that although I have pretty much avoided any episodes with Amelia flashbacks.

If later on there is something added or a different interpretation is overlaid on the flashbacks, I'm on board with that and may even revisit those episodes again. But not right now because the scenes between these two characters are just so painfully lackluster that it defies description. Sam and Amelia have all of the passion and chemistry of a pair of tit-mice, while we are constantly being told that they deeply love each other.

And even in Torn and frayed where there was a little more chemistry, Amelia still didn't come off looking too good. I still ended up hating her for her complete lack of moral character. "Oh, hey I'm willing to cheat on my husband with you if you stick around, cuz I can't make up my mind which one of you I want." Really? You want this guy to just accept half a life with you whereas before, he had all of your attention.

Not only that but given Sam's track record, we all knew this was not a relationship that was ever going to last ,so the writer's pretty much wasted out time presenting us with a relationship we don't care about with someone we don't care about that's not even going to be around to the end of the season anyway(and thank Chuck for that!)

I have no intention of stopping watching the show. I love the characters too much and the show always has the most intriguing premises. Every season has a handful of episodes that I just hate but overall it'still one of the best shows on TV. That it lasted so long is still remarkable to me given how the networks usually treat my favorite shows.

I agree with everything you've said in relation to Sam and the lack of any real reason for JC having done this. His "why not" that I did read makes absolutely no sense to me. All I can think of is that he couldn't think of any SL for Sam and so did this. At least if he was going to do this, why couldn't he have done a better job of it? If it hadn't been told so poorly maybe we wouldn't still be discussing it all these month later.
Agra Priscilla
# Agra Priscilla 2013-03-16 23:21
thought of portuguese and translated by google

Our text is very .. I could not read everything but I will relate what I think!

crowley know Enochian because demons are the children of a fallen angel and Enochian know why!! legends say that!

pa if you see a child in the future is better than the older daughter of a novel first or second season as Cassie to be maiorzinha already ... not have as babies enter the story ... combines not much .. Sarah may be for Sam fans but this difference rather than Amelia, I I do not like her .. nor disgust .. it does not fit with the profile of Sam and that is why I believe she is there! but has sun and "never trust a guy called Don" and he was in the war ... kinkle one left by John ... maybe not now untie ... and I hope that even if Amelia is only souvenir ... not bad ... but please do not come from a baby amelia!! please, please, please, please, please, please ... eternally repeat if necessary!

and the Batcave all good ... and that woman is not making machine children these things but this place needs a woman's touch even =) maybe a girlfriend would be good for Dean .... the guy spends a year in purgatory he needs woman kkkk I need a man for sure!!

AA and yes they need more women ... and more fun .... they deserve!

the bromance is inevitable but we have some broken glass here, who knows if after Crowley suggest that Dean was in purgatory Sam has sought a way to get up there and save that way but Dean only encountered problems and that the information he had is that he would not go there but discovered that he had an outlet for Dean but Dean could only find her alone, could not help, there fits with Sam despair over the inevitable and go driving around a mile a minute and nearly killing the dog!! so much talk of "Dean was in purgatory and Sam hit the dog" would be a point to this story and dialogue with them about that Dean could fit the broken glass and redo, this boy already remade so many times!

Castiel and the bossy lady anja sky ... very strange that Naomi! I do not know which idea to have, but I know that is still a little romance to scroll between Cass and Meg .. has a ...

The prophet .. he was sad but he did his job, and had the work done was take his place in heaven ... by chance prophets did not see angels?? who knows .... I do not understand very well Enochian ask for some, but I'll find out soon ;)

Benny Benny I find no place for it ... maybe he will change the minds of vampires ... and here we return to the Alpha and vampirão be a new way of living vampire kkk at least not to be killed! (Ai could put the darlings of The diary of vampires to participate kkkk Jensen as suggested in some of the conventions .. I do not remember very few with subtitles for the Portuguese ... I think some fans would like vampires kkkk I do not ...

bobby .. never return snif: '(but the skinny is doing a good job kkk

I believe it has a lot of history yet to roll ... there the men of letters of Judah ... it will be important going forward ...
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-17 00:29
Hello Agra Priscilla.

If I understand correctly, I think most of us agree. No babies. I don't like Amelia either. The Batcave is great. Dean probably could use a date, but no bringing them to the Batcave! :-)

Naomi is strange. I don't know what is going on with her. Hopefully we will know soon. I hope Benny does not die either.

I miss Bobby too. Garth is doing a good job, but I still miss Bobby.

Oh and I am not sure what kkk stands for in Portuguese but it is not a nice thing in US :D
Does it mean like yes yes yes?
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-17 00:54
Agra Priscilla,

I miss Bobby also.

I didn't love or find Amelia disgusting either. I agree no Amelia babies. I hope there are no babies.

The batcave is good, yes , and the men of letters will be important now and in the future.

The brothers should have some fun and I hope they can, with all that is in front of them.