This season has really flirted with the idea that perhaps Dean takes his bromances a bit too far. After all, he held his relationship with Benny in very high regard, perhaps even higher than Sam. In “LARP and the Real Girl†when Charlie and Dean were talking about Sam’s breakup with Amelia, Dean’s breaking ties with Benny was on his mind too, so much so Charlie could tell it was something else was up. “Are we still talking about Sam, or did you break up with someone too?†Dean denied, but isn’t that exactly what his call to Benny is considered? A breakup?
Then there was the “gay thing†with Aaron, which on the surface was just goofy fun, but is there more than this? A question on the Let’s Speculate thread for “Everybody Hates Hitler†raised was has the show been leading up to Dean outing himself? Naturally most fans would find this notion totally absurd, but when you really think about it, look at his relationship with Castiel. Destiel has become very popular in fan fiction, and the show hasn’t shied away from it either. The infamous “coat†scene in last seasons “The Born Again Identity†certainly drifted into that territory.
Wincest has always been popular too. There was a recent review by Annalee Newitz of i09 (of whom I see at Comic Con each year and am a huge fan of her views) about “Torn and Frayed†where she in a most hilarious way declared “Supernatural is the best gay romance on TV that isn’t actually gay.†A lot of the article was a rant about the episode, but I love this part of it:
All I'm saying is why not just give us a plot twist or retcon where it turns out the Winchesters aren't brothers but a longtime married gay couple who are — I dunno — assassins or X-Files types. At this point, it seems like most people are watching for the boys' relationships, not for the monsters. Why not just 'fess up and make a gay soap opera where Dean is torn between his salty sailor fling and his steadfast husband Sam?
Might I note that when I recommended this article on Twitter, several people actually shouted me down for the recommendation. They thought it was offensive and my endorsement was inappropriate. I do imagine that this thread isn’t going to do much to spread goodwill with these people, but like I said, elephant in the room, even if the intent was satire.So chime in, why do you think the show likes to flirt with this notion of Dean Winchester and sexual orientation? Any reason why it’s mostly Dean? Any reason why they go there at all? Is it really not a “gay thing†but something else?
As usual with our “Let’s Discuss†threads, this is a free form discussion zone, so speak your mind! All opinions are welcome. Just try to be respectful of other posters and don’t attack.
Okay, let’s discuss!
Comments
If Dean is gay or bi, the obvious romantic interests would be Cas and/or Benny. I have no problem with having a gay, manly hunter. I have no trouble with the idea that Dean is gay. However, if they go with Dean/any guy, then Sam becomes even more marginalized and is even more likely to be written out of scenes so the show can focus on Destiel or Denny or whatever. So, I'm not rooting for it for that reason.
It's an interesting idea, but because it would change the dynamics of the show, I would probably not like it.
As for Dean being bisexual, I have never seen it except for with Cas. And if they can write a romantic relationship between the two that's beautiful and believable then I will be fine with it.
1. Know your audience... Women find Dean hot. But a quick look at any website or magazine that is more geared towards gay men suggests that Dean is a hot commodity there too. I'm not sure why Dean is more popular there than Sam is, but he seems to be. Savvy marketers are pitching more & more products directly towards the LGBQT community. Extend that idea to television shows. Nielsen ratings don't care about your sexual orientation, it just cares you're watching. So, if the TPTB think there is a potential market to tap, they're going to throw them a bone. (I think I chose inappropriately!)
2. Dean has always seemed to be the "sex" guys. True, in the actual sex scenes we've seen, Sam seems the more "rambunctious" and "unrestrained" lovemaker - a little wilder. (Should have read 50 Shades of Grey before I wrote this. I don't have the right vocabulary!) In comparison, Dean's sex scenes have been slow, gentle, tender and languid. Yet, Dean is the one who's always talking about sex, especially in the early years. Remember the Doublemint twins after he sold his soul? Remember his joy that Sam was going to "get some" with Madison? Remember his concern that Nancy in Jus in Bello, or even Cas might die a virgin? In Dean's world, sex is as natural and necessary as breathing. It feels good. Remember the conversation he & Anna had about life as a person versus life as an angel. It was her mention of sex that reminded him/convinced him that being human did have its perks.
3. Dean doesn't love many, but those who he loves, he loves wholly. One of Dean's most consistent traits is loyalty and/or devotion. He loves the person, period. He acted like he broke up with Benny, because he did break up with Benny. It doesn't mean they were sleeping together, but it was a very serious relationship. Dean trusted Benny with his life. That's the biggest commitment Dean can make. So whether or not they're kissing, it's a very real bond.
4. Since the beginning of the show Dean's been mistaken for a gay man. I think the writers just have fun putting that character in those awkward situations. It's creates an odd humourous yet dramatic tension, partly because JA plays the flattered/flust ered/confused Dean so well. (As an aside, I think the reason Dean didn't say "No thanks man, I don't swing that way" to Aaron in the bar was because he was still trying to maintain his FBI cover. So he was trying to be polite and not offend some nice college student.)
5. For what it's worth I think Dean is straight, but very open-minded. Regardless of what he says about his place being on the road, hunting monsters with Sam, I think there's a part of him that still wants the home & family too. He's just decided it's something he can never have.
Not very profound thoughts, but just what occurred to me.
exactly! very well said said and my thought also. Dean is Straight as they get, but not against others choices, althougt he may have been at the beginning he has grown to accept other peoples choices, being the good looking guy he is, he has learned to expect these advances from time to time although not gracefully lol Dean doesn't have many people he allows on his word so naturally the ones he does he will have a bond with. End of story, they rest is just teasing the fandom because they can and because they know parts of the fandom wants it.
Additional: Jensen has a very beautiful face. With those eyes and those "ducky" lips paired with Dean's character and job? It makes for an unconscious delicious tension.
What if the SPN decided to make Dean a bisexual? My theory --> Dean wouldn't mind, but Jensen may balk at the idea. ONLY, ONLY because he has made the character his own, fashioning it from parts of his own psyche. He helped build/flesh it out, probably more so than Kripke or the writers. So...
Also in the movie Blonde he's getting it on with McDreamy (I used to be a big Grey's Anatomy fan) and Marilyn Munroe (Poppy Montgomery). He looked pretty comfortable in those scenes....but alas that could be purely acting.
I didn't watch Blonde for any reason other than a passing interest in Marilyn Munroe.
Nothing against John, but in all honesty he was a shitty father. He was a great drill sergeant, but in a way he emotionally abused Dean, yelled at him for being him. He never really told Dean he was proud of him. It was always 'look out for sammy'. Dean aimed to please his father, which is probably why he has the whole self hate thing going on.
Now, let's take this macho military man, the very definition of "manly" and think about how he would react to Dean being gay, or at least bi. To him, being a man was going out and killing something, coming back, getting a beer and a burger and if he was lucky, a girl for the night. Dean wore his father's coat, drove his father's car, carried around his father's journal, lived by his father's advice. He was trying to BE John.
But the thing about being John is that Dean couldn't be himself. He was used to the knowledge that he couldn't have what he wanted. So he tried to become John. In the years after his Dad's death though, Dean has become less of his father and more of himself. I can't even remember the last time Dean wore that leather jacket this season. In Torn and Frayed, he wore a gray and blue suit instead of the regular black in white one, which isn't really all that specific but stood out to me. I think Dean is finally letting himself be himself, if that makes any sense.
Also, the lore says that Purgatory is a state or place of purification of your sins. Basically, his slate was wiped clean. He can be whoever he wants to be now.
There's one thing about the scene with Aaron in the bar that bothered me though. I would have thought that he was just trying to maintain his cover, trying to think or imitate what an actual FBI agent would have done in that situation, except for the shot of where he pulls his badge back while Aaron was talking, and then puts it away, and then looks over his shoulder.
Normally I would have passed this off, but idk, it seemed strange to me for him to be putting him badge away and then getting all nervous like someone might see him there. And then, when they were in Aaron's house, he goes all the way to say point blank to Sam that Aaron was his "gay thing". When he talked to Sam on the phone he said 'it was a gay thing', but then says 'he was my gay thing'. Something about the way the wording was changed.
I really don't know, this is all my opinion. I have no clue what the writers are planning. But I think that Dean is more or less going through a mid-life crisis and trying to figure out who he is.
I'm not saying Dean isn't suddenly shoving women away, it's obvious he still likes boobs. But there could be a chance that he's discovering he likes stubble too.
I do think Dean is (mostly) straight, but very open minded. And you know, all those years on the road, sometimes all alone when Sam was in college and John was off doing his own thing... I can imagine there may have been times Dean was hit on by guys and may have been open to it.
And let's not forget about his crush on "Dr. Sexy" -- I mean, of all the people on TV to crush on, it's a GUY named Dr. Sexy?!.
I think you are exactly right on.
And by the way, I much prefer Dean's lovemaking to the roughneck type Sammy seems to favour. Don't hit me, I just do!
Now, Dean being gay -- I doubt it. I can imagine him being bi or at least experimenting. I think Dean is pretty open-minded about sex in that he's not homophobic (at least I don't read him as such). Still, I'd rather keep him as god's gift to women. :)
I wouldn't have been surprised if Soulless Sam had hooked up with a dude. Too late for that, though.
I just want to ask you. Have you ever heard a theory that all of us are bi? There were psychologists in a midnight talk show that I saw few weeks back who said that actually there is no one who is 100% straight or 100% gay. What is there is bisexuality with different level from 1 to 10 (for example). All of us have bisexuality inside, only the level is different.
The talk between those psychologists has opened my eyes and I was thinking to myself, "Yes, if I think about it that actually makes sense."
I will start from that theory.
The gist is like this:
If a woman has a bisexuality level on 1 then it's the lowest. She probably will never be attracted to any girl, will only acknowledge that they are pretty but never think more than that. And only attracted to guys. This is the level that most people think is straight but it's actually not. Because no one is 100% straight.
I admit I will go with the psychologist on this one.
Probably Dean's level is 6 or 5? I am positive that he's not on 1 or even 2. He had a man crush on Dr. Sexy a while back. He knows how to appreciate, dare I say enjoy, a handsome and sexy man. Someone with bisexuality level on 1 or 2 probably won't do that, won't even acknowledge that other guys are attractive.
The talk show is very interesting and they also invited few actresses and asked them what they think their level of bisexuality was.
So, there's no 100% straight / gay. Just the difference in the bisexuality level.
What do you think?
I'm also linking a page on bisexuality here, it has a similar tone with the talk show that I watched.
I quote :
Even putting people into three categories: “heterosexual â€, “bisexualâ€, and “homosexual†(instead of one or two) is a simplification which ignores other dimensions of sexuality and hides the fact that these are groups with fuzzy edges, not neat boxes. by Albert Lunde, Sept 1992
http://www.deepliving.com/bisexuality-and-psychology/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale
http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/research/ak-hhscale.html
Quote:I agree with this fully! There is no point in trying to pin down any/every relationship a character has as sexual or even romantic. There is plenty of room for friendship and family, especially in Supernatural!
(As an aside, I think the reason Dean didn't say "No thanks man, I don't swing that way" to Aaron in the bar was because he was still trying to maintain his FBI cover. So he was trying to be polite and not offend some nice college student.)
[...]
For what it's worth I think Dean is straight, but very open-minded.
^Dean is very open-minded? I couldn't agree less with this.
Although I don't think Dean being flustered necessarily cater to the idea of him being actually attracted to/interested in Aaron. But it does show significant character growth, because had this been in any season predating Purgatory I doubt Dean's reaction had been to get flattered/flust ered when a guy comes on to him.
Dean has been seen turning guys down and verbally reasserting his heterosexuality a number of times up until this point (aka. Everybody Hates Hitler). Almost like it's a thing!
Examples to this effect are:
"Well, you are a handsome devil, but I don't swing that way, sorry." {Croatoan}
Dean: "the most troubling question is why do these people assume we're gay?"
Sam: "Well you are kind of butch they probably think you're compinsating." {Playthings}
"You kinky son of a bitch. We don't swing that way." {Jus in Bello}
"Yeah, sorry again, pal. I don't play for your team." {Live Free or TwiHard}
"Yeah, it's - no, I'm - I was too busy having sex with women." {Let it Bleed}
So this is actually the first time we've seen Dean not instantly turning a guy down. Furthermore the fact that he continually refers to Aaron flirting with him as his 'gay thing' definitely shows him as having become more okay with people misunderstandin g and making assumptions about his sexuality.
Considering Dean's upbringing and John's attitude towards him growing up I think it's clear that he has been overcompensatin g and acting hyper-masculine for most of his life. Everything from above quotes, to constantly berating Sam earlier for his nerdiness/wanti ng to study, to trying to play down his own interests points to this. {LARP and The Real Girl} was awesome in that we got to see Dean enjoy something not strictly abiding to his 'macho drink at a bar & casual sex'-shtick unabashedly and without shame. And last nights episode also showed a new side of Dean where he actually turns sexual advances down.
As a last aside: We know from {The Born-Again Identity} that Jensen Ackles has no problem pointing out scenes that are out of character for Dean (with the trench coat scene) and that writer Ben Edlund, who wrote the episode Everybody Hates Hitler, takes great care in his writing, and happens to be fond of Dean and Castiel's relationship. Lastly it was said during Chicon that Jeremy Carver intends to resolve Cas and Dean’s relationship ( (interpret however you want) later in the season.
I think it's interesting how all of this coincides with Dean's more open, mature and self-confident attitude of Season Gr8. Not saying that it'll amount to any big change to Dean's casual flings, his sexuality or his living as a whole, but I definitely look forward to seeing more of "nesting" domestic and comfortable-in- his-own-skin Dean.
I TOTALLY agree with everything you wrote here. 100% right on. And of course my favorite thing you pointed out is good god almighty he is sexy. lol I have nothing against gays, people can love who they wanna love. But I personally would be so upset if they "outed" Dean. Especially at the end. If maybe he would have been "outed" when the show first started then hey great.
With your third point, you are exactly right. I agree with you. When he loves people he really loves them. He doesnt hold back. I know alot of guys like that, their true friends they really love. It doesnt mean hes got a thing for Benny. He could trust Benny with his life. They were each others best friends in purgatory. They saved each other, so yeah he should really love Benny. :)
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Perfect!
I really think that if Cas had been written from the start as a female character, there would be a lot less mention or discussion of Dean's sexuality. And some of these same fans would be bitterly opposed to Dean being revealed as anything other than 100% heterosexual male, thereby spoiling and/or destroying their OTP of Dean & Cas.
Personally, I think Dean is straight but it wouldn't bother me or affect my enjoyment of the show if he was gay or bi.
With my newfound understanding (from a talk show on TV with some psychologists) that essentially no man/woman is 100% Straight or Gay, I think it's save to say that Dean does have a little high level of bisexuality than Sam.
The psychologists say that there's always a bisexuality in each of us. The different is the level. So, there's no one who is pure Gay and no one who is pure Straight. After all we can freely appreciate the prettiness and sexiness of people with the same sex as us.
As if the bisexuality level in every person is from 1 to 10. i bet that Dean is between 5 and 6. He maybe at 4 but I'm sure that he's at 5. Person in this level can appreciate the prettiness on both gender (Mancrush on Dr, Sexy) and sometimes act on it and sometimes don't.
If Dean's level is at 2 or 3, he won't be that flustered and shy/embarrassed when Dr, Sexy approached him. He will only acknowledge that he's handsome/sexy but not have any reaction at all.
level 1 is the lowest. This is what people call straight but actually it's not pure straight. You still have 1 level on the bar but find your own gender unattractive to date and has no reaction at all.
I prefer not to put sexuality in neat little boxes and called them "Gay", "Straight", "Bisex". They are all, after all, on the same level bar.
As for why it's more Dean than Sam, that wasn't the case until S4 -- before then, most of the nods were the show playfully teasing the bromance as something more. The plot in S4 called for Dean to be closer to Cas than Sam, and the actors have great chemistry, so that may have contributed to more slashwink at Dean than at Sam. I doubt they'd ever actually characterize Dean as bi, but playing around with the idea makes his character even more intriguing to many fans. And as long as it's playful teasing, it doesn't put off any of the others. Win/win!
really? where???? :( Why I always miss the fun!
Well I have always thought the fans have an overactive imagination, and if they want to have fun making stories, let them have it. :)
I think the Dean and Cass, and Dean and Benny is just what people call bromance, even Dean told Cass "you are like a brother to me".
But if we are going to mention episodes, I remember on 5.09 "The Real Ghostbusters" where Damien and Barnes tell Dean they are partners, Dean looked kind of uncomfortable and I remember back there, people asking if Dean was kind of homophobic, because of his reaction in that scene...
and there is another scene on 2.11 "Playthings" where Dean asks Sam: "the most troubling question is why do these people assume we're gay?" he didn't say how they know I'm gay or we are gay
But yes the writers always try to joke with that and make Dean uncomfortable, but gay? No I don't think Dean is gay.
Dean to me will always be the heroic, fierce, self-sacrificin g, kickass hero he has always been. Who he loves has never, not ever will change that.
I don't think Dean has ever been biased against homosexuals, but early on he was uncomfortable about the notion that someone might think he was. If anything, I think it shows a certain growth and acceptance on Dean's part that he actually seemed pleased that Aaron found him attractive. I think his ease around Charlie shows him to be quite accepting of people in general now. As long as they aren't evil or doing evil things, Dean has a live and let live attitude and is most apt to judge someone for who they are or aren't, with their sexual orientation a mute point.
Cas and Benny are like brothers to him, like family...the classic bromance of two straight guys who would die for each other. It is totally not sexual, instead based on loyalty and trust and brotherhood.
I see no indication anywhere that Dean Winchester is even remotely gay. None. I do see a lot of fun at his expense and a lot of fantasies being teased by the writers.
B.J.
I could go on. I think the writers have had fun with this running gag for three reasons. First, both actors play the awkward, flustered reaction without being insulting or homophobic really well, allowing for humor without insult. Second, both characters are clearly straight (in my opinion), and those who are comfortable with their sexuality and totally sure of where they stand, can be comfortable with the joke. (His buddies once teased my guy about how something he had picked out seemed gay. When I asked him if that bothered him, he said, Nah - I am totally comfortable with my sexuality). Third, it is a shout out and a little teasing to the fans that they know indulge in these sexual fantasies.
For me, it makes for some fun dialogue. All good, but I do not believe there is anything more to it.
For me, the false brother element is even more irritating than the is Dean a homosexual or bisexual gambit. Fans want Dean to be gay to make their ship canon, end of story. Whatever. I don't care if Dean is gay or straight, but so far, he's never been portrayed as anything other than straight. What I hate about the False Brother Thing they keep doing with Dean is that it inevitably bites back on Sam in bad ways. One of the reasons Dean gets away with being such an abusive, controlling dick to Sam all the time is because he has access to other characters that he can bond with, while Sam has nobody to even talk to about the freaking weather. Sam is the most isolated lead character of any show I've ever watched. It's flat out bizarre.
And Dean is supposed to be so loyal because he's loyal to Cas and Benny, but to me, it only shows how disloyal Dean is to Sam, deep down. Dean is constantly running off and being "seduced" by what he views as brother substitutes for Sam, like in Sex and Violence or Swap Meat. If Dean were loyal to Sam, he wouldn't feel the need to go shopping for 'better' other brothers all the time. For me, Benny is proof enough that Dean's not that loyal to Sam at all, esp. not emotionally. For that reason alone, I just don't want Benny back unless it's to get the same farewell that Ruby got.
Also, I don't think Dean's relationship with Castiel is all that healthy for Castiel. I have my issues with Cas over his treatment of Sam all during Season 6, and some before, but mostly his crimes against Sam in that season are numerous and obvious. But setting that aside, Dean does not treat Castiel all that well if they are best friends. Or love interests. I only think of Dean and Castiel being actual bonafide friends in Season 5, and that's it. Season 4 set things up, they were friends in Season 5, but in Season 6, they both just used each other for their own purposes. And Dean felt free to say some fairly mean things to Castiel, honestly, if he wasn't getting what he wanted. In Season 7, maybe Dean felt grief and pointless guilt (the only kind Dean acknowledges) over Castiel being "dead" but Dean feels guilt over stuff he has nothing to do with, so to me, that's more about Dean than Castiel in any way. So, Dean was a creeper and kept Castiel's trench coat full of murder gore instead of burning it. How romantic. Season 8, Dean's completely forgotten that Cas was a mass murderer and is responsible for Sam nearly dying on more than one occasion after breaking Sam's Wall. How loyal of Dean! Sam is so lucky to have a brother whose got his back like that, right? Anyway, the big bromance triangle in Purgatory bored me senseless for one big reason: I don't believe in it. Yes, comrades in arms, blah blah blah, how moving. Then what has Sam been all this time to Dean? Some guy taking up space in the Impala passenger seat? Sam is as much a comrade in arms as Benny ever was, if not more so. If Dean can't see that, then I have no use for Dean and his precious "loyalty."
The thing about slash fiction and slash pairings, is that everybody and their grandma is doing now, on all shows. It's not groundbreaking, it's gay porn for girls, mostly. It's like the woman's version of a guy watching two lesbians make out when he's straight. So, I don't view slash as a true gay pairing. It's a fantasy pairing. Honestly, some male actors or characters have better chemistry with other male characters than they do female characters (Angel on ATS comes to mind). I'm not sure why that is, maybe because women are not treated as equals in the same way, esp. if they are "love interests." However, chemistry is not proof of homosexuality or OTP or anything else. It's just a good dynamic. For me, a real genre homosexual pairing is not hidden and forced out by slash fans demanding it be canon on the writers. A real pairing is presented on a show as a real pairing - Jack and Ianto on Torchwood is a real homosexual pairing. Lost Girl has a love triangle with a female lead, one male character and one female character, with both choices presented fairly equally in romantic and sexual importance. That's real, not some fantasy puff ball people obsess over and want forced onto a tv show or else. I respect real. If it's not real, stop forcing fantasy pairings onto a show that doesn't need it.
Another thing with Dean, is that he is very image oriented. His self image is very important to him. Dean wants people to see him as cool, pretty much at all times. Sam does not see Dean as cool. Sam bursts Dean's self image bubble just by not playing along all the time. I think this plays a part in Dean seeking out 'brothers' who fulfill his need to fit a certain image that Dean wants.
Quote:"All the time"?? I don't think this is fair to Dean at all.
In Sex & Violence, the entire point was the Siren seduced its victims, so Dean was supposed to "fall" for him. Dean was being supernaturally influenced by the Siren, just like all of the other victims were.
And in Swap Meat, there was no reason for Dean to (initially) suspect that Sam wasn't actually his brother.
As for Benny, well Benny was an ally in Purgatory and Dean didn't have much choice but to accept his help, or he'd still be in Purgatory. And yes because Benny did have his back and demonstrated his loyalty, Dean in turn was loyal to Benny.
Until Sam asked him to cut ties with Benny, and then Dean demonstrated that he was more loyal to Sam by doing just that and cutting ties with Benny.
Dean has had a more complicated relationship with Cas. After Cas lost it and betrayed them, Dean cut ties with him. In fact Sam forgave Cas before Dean did and I think only because he did, was Dean open to forgiving Cas himself.
Sam has betrayed Dean as well. He carried on in a relationship with a demon who laughed and mocked Dean when he was about to go to Hell. Ruby told Dean right in front of Sam that she wished she could be there as the flesh was being torn off his body. And yet, even after that, Sam had sex with her and trusted her more than he trusted Dean. But Dean forgave him.
And where is Dean now? ... right beside Sam, supporting him.
But you would obviously rather bash Dean, so I'll leave you to it.
This is a very interesting insight to me. Slash pairings don't do much for me as fantasy fodder. I can appreciate the aesthetic, mind you, but beyond the eye candy as presented on the show, I do not go.
Dean has always had Sam's back. Sam hasn't always had Dean's.
Any hints to that end have been from entire strangers who know not the Winchester brothers!
I'm sure if I was a male and gay I would be enamoured of Dean just as much as I am as a female, but that would not have any effect on HIS sexuality. He is who he is and I will never believe has been meant to be anything but a complete heterosexual male.
Those moments of mistaken perceptions by strangers have been humourous and bring a little comic relief to some heavy dramatics.
Oh well, I think the slashwinking of Supernatural has been an established thing from season 1 onwards, though it has taken a whole new level in the latter seasons.
I would consider myself a semi-Destiel shipper (it's a thing, okay?!). I think Dean and Cas have been treading the fine line of "love" and "being in love" for a while now and it could lean either way.
However, I am utterly convinced that Dean is not gay. Many Destiel shippers always like to point out certain scenes to establish that Dean is at least bi, but I never agree with those (examples include the male siren, even though it's stated in the ep that Dean is craving a brother; the checking of the tattoo for identification purposes in The Curious Case.. (jesus people, he wasn't checking out the guy's junk!) or the fanboying over Dr Sexy (I personally fangirl over women w/o being gay).
To me situations that could show a homosexual interest have always just been with Cas (like the infamous hiding a boner-scene :D). I've read this sentence in well-written fanfiction where Dean is like "I'm not gay, it's just Cas." and I'm like yeah, I could work with that. :)
I agree that the writers like to "fanservice" and slashwink a lot and though I do believe at times that there's more to Dean and Cas' relationship than just friends, I don't think it's actually going to come to anything. And I'm totally okay with that, since to me the (non-incest, mind you!) boys are the heart of the show and that's what matters.
Frankly I'd be happy if they finally stated once and for all that it's either yes or no for D/C, the constant nudge-nudge-win k-wink is tiring to me :)
If they do choose to actually make Destiel canon, I hope they won't to it over the top, I want one little scene of acknowledgment and that's it. I love them dearly and I think it'd be great for TV land to have a real manly character like Dean be in a relationship with what appears to be another man, but I don't want the show to change into a soap opera.
Sorry, that was kind of long, but like I said, I was waiting for a "safe environment" to discuss this topic, without having really intense Destiel shippers and/or intense Destiel haters reaming my ass for my opinions :)
PS: I wholeheartedly agree with your point 3 Pragmatic Dreamer. To Dean that phone call was a break-up, even without it being sexually/romant ically. It hurts leaving a friend behind. Especially the only one who in Dean's opinion has never betrayed him.
Whether they were being serious about it at the beginning of the series or not, they have been hinting at the fact that Dean might be a closeted/repres sed queer (likely bisexual or pansexual, but definitely non-hetero) since 2x11, Playthings, when a very concerned Dean asks Sam why everybody keeps mistaking them for gay, to which Sam replies that it's probably because Dean looks like he's overcompensatin g, and Dean looks uncomfortable and caught.
They kept hinting at it again and again (always just with Dean, not Sam), so much that a part of the fandom started speculating about his sexuality. However they never seemed to intend to take the issue from subtext to text. Until 8x13, that is, which was intentionally explicit and, in fact, made people outside the fandom talk about it.
I see this as something that has been going on for seven years and that was just recently made more explicit, hopefully because the writers plan to allow Dean to develop towards full acceptance of himself and, finally, a next step towards emancipation from the negative, repressive models his father and the culture he was raised in imposed on him.
I think the writers finally addressing this is very important both for the narrative and for the positive impact it can have on society, especially since this didn't come out of nowhere but is backed up by years of subtext, and it only makes sense, IMO, that Dean would eventually come to terms with it.
Dean and Benny have a relationship most men in war have. There is nothing romantic or sexual about it. Benny is the only person who understands what purgatory was like (aside from Cas) and was there for Dean and helped him survive. Comrades in war just have a special connection.
Now I believe Dean is 'straight' as well. But I think labels are dumb because sexuality is fluid, as cliche as that sounds. I don't believe that Dean and Castiel are have sexual intercourse or anything like that, but I do believe that Dean and Castiel have a romantic connection. Their homoerotic lines and glances are usually serious in nature and not always used for gags. The things they have done for each other always raises a flag. Dean kept Castiel's coat after he died. Castiel gave up everything and died for Dean multiple times. You just don't do these things unless you truly feel something for someone. Of course I could chalk it up as close friendship but we all know it's more than that. Their relationship is something much more than friendship.
The writers will never make Dean bisexual, and Dean and Cas will never be together. The reasoning is simply because the outcome would be more damaging to the show itself rather than help it. Majority of fans, and human beings are not ready to see that kind of romance on television. Maybe if Supernatural was a drama or a sitcom and the majority of the viewers were women and gay men. But it's not. It's sad but the truth.
It is very easy to give Dean those type of relationships , he is the popular one the brother alot relate to the most .Castiel was accepted almost straight away and their bond strengthed the trenchcoat being a example.The same with Benny accepted and literally loved by the fandom within seconds of being seen and Sam's non acceptance of Benny was seen has wrong almost a betrayal .
Sam's connections tend to be brief or dark or Amelia . It does create a imbalance because Dean's connections are given more meaning and depth to such a degree that this thread and other debates elsewhere are created because of them.
The fandom's reaction does tend to encourage giving Dean relationships first Castiel and now Benny and both these characters and their closeness to Dean came at a time when Sam was being seen as a poor uncaring brother . Castiel in season 4 and Benny this season when Sam hadnt looked for Dean it all plays into these relationships and then the writing even hint's at more esp between Dean and Cas even if nothing actually comes of it.
men want dean straight cause they don't want their favorite character to be gay
it's that simple guys
"Dean introduced himself to Aaron as Officer Bolan - as in Marc Bolan, of T-Rex, who sang "(Get It On) Bang a Gong." He was bi."
Take into consideration that it's a Ben Edlund script and we all know how much thought he puts into his work! That's all I'll say because I don't feel like discussing this topic here.
Hail Edlund
"Dean introduced himself to Aaron as Officer Bolan - as in Marc Bolan, of T-Rex, who sang "(Get It On) Bang a Gong." He was bi."
Take into consideration that it's a Ben Edlund's script, we all know how much thought and details he puts into his work. And he is the last person who would make a joke with intention to queerbait.
That's all I'll say because I don't feel like discussing the topic here.
We've seen Dean grow more in S8 than we have since...well, ever. He's started to peel away the super-cool-and- tough-guy facade he's clung to since forever and reveal everything from his inner geek to the fact that he rather enjoys dressing up. They seem like small things, but they're huge steps for him, where before he was always his father's perfect little soldier and legacy.
All in all, Dean's becoming far more comfortable with himself, rather than the image he once made for himself -- namely, he's moving out of John's shadow. If he were to come out as queer, it would complement the rest of his character development perfectly. And no, it wouldn't make him any less heroic or kick-ass or masculine, or whatever it is that people are so worried about. It would just mean that he also has an interest in men, which would not be all that surprising to see, given how repressed he is in general.
We'll see where the writers plan to take this, but there's really no way that Dean's coming out as queer could be anything but a good thing for his character.
Dean coming to accept that he has an attraction to men as well as women would fit the general progression we've had this season where Dean has allowed himself out of the box that he believed (rightly or wrongly) that his father wanted him to stay inside.
I also feel like it would be a healthy step for the show, rather than continuing to play the subtext game.
I can agree with your point here. I don't have any problem with Dean being Bi if it's written as a natural progression, or I'd rather say showing his true bisexual level on the bar. (Everyone is bisexual by the way. the difference is on the level)
I will not be bothered by it.
Because that's exactly one of the "Dean could be gay"-examples I negate :) It was made clear in the episode, that sirens fulfill your biggest need and Dean wanted his brother back, so that's why the siren was a man...
I agree with you that Dean seems to have had more meaningful relationships of whatever nature with men on the show (which also might be due to the fact that many female characters weren't given the time to be properly developed...)
Succubi are sexual by nature. If the show hadn't wanted to imply something sexual by Dean's siren, they wouldn't have picked a succubi as the demon of choice. The title of the episode lays it all out -- "Sex and Violence" -- that's what the succubus was all about, using sexual attraction in order to foster violence.
And a man who takes care of a bedridden mother is of course going to be interested in hot girl to escape from his reality.
But Dean get all the women he wants, what Dean needed is the "brother" relationship. There was not one thing sexual about his time with the siren. Plus the siren knew Dean was looking for a female, so it took a male form to throw him (and the viewers) off track.
I also can't recall if the siren was on to the boys at the point it introduced itself as Nick, but considering it introduced itself as an FBI agent, at the very least it knew they were investigating. Sex was pretty much out of the question for Dean since he knew what they were up against, but what better way to drive a wedge between him and Sam, than by introducing someone who could fulfil that brotherly role, even if just for a short time, that was lacking in his and Sam's relationship? It could just be that it figured sex was not the way to go to get Dean in its clutches, so it tried something different. Yes, Nick was nothing like Sam, but he appreciated classic cars and liked Led Zeppelin, and was someone Dean may have felt he could relate to.
As you mention, saliva can be passed on multiple different ways (seems like being a waitress would have been an even easier way for the siren to pass along saliva) and yet the siren chooses sex as the main means of transmission. Because it works primarily via sexual attraction.
Also, sex being what it is, would no doubt be the way to most guarantee the victim being put under her spell. I interpreted it as sex being the easiest means to its ends, but not necessarily that sex or sexual attraction was its main MO, or the only/primary means of achieving its objective.
But we can agree to disagree, certainly.
Bottom line: It was a siren, not a succubus, i.e. not necessarily sexual.
And that's just it, the siren models itself into a perfect mate in all regards, romance, friendship and sex, and on top of that uses sex as a weapon. The name of the episode is "Sex & Violence". If you're still not convinced, there's the words the siren actually said in the episode "I want to fall in love over and over again."
I'm sorry, but for all the reasons listen above I have trouble accepting it's Sam the siren was replacing, too much incest implications in there for me, I'm uncomfortable with that.
It's a whole another issue that they used all of it as a plot twist, but they were surely aware of the implications when they wrote it. Even if they had a "no homo" moment with that passing comment about brother, the siren was nothing like Sam and it was completely Dean's type. We'll just have to agree to disagree I guess.
Now this siren, I believe was about love, yes, maybe even infatuation and obsession. Sexual attraction I think, often coincides with obsession, but it’s not the same thing. Just like romantic love is not the only love we can experience. There’s familial love, like the one shared between Sam and Dean. This siren, while it used sex and probably enjoyed it, I think used it more as a means to the greater prize of having the victim not only commit murder in its name, but murder of the person closest to them.
Only because I’m OCD that way, I checked, and Cathryn Humphris, who wrote this episode, indicated that she introduced Nick because of the inherent predictability of the story. We were expecting one of the boys to have sex with the siren. Sam had sex with Dr. Cara, who we all assumed was the siren.
Enter Nick ‘a young man who idolizes Dean’ and would ‘do all the cool things Sam wouldn’t’. It wasn’t about the sexual/romantic attraction to the brother figure. Nick wasn’t anything like Sam, but that’s the point. It was about filling a role that Sam wasn’t as a brother because of the ever-widening rift between them, but with the added benefit of Nick being willing to have long conversations about the greatest hits of Led Zeppelin, for example, something Sam wouldn’t do. So, yes, it was in some way about becoming ‘the perfect mate’, but not necessarily, I think always in a romantic way, but also luring the person away from who they care about most by attempting to be better than the other person.
That’s why think the siren got its kicks seeing both Sam and Dean attempting to fight each other to the death, over it. I felt it was always more about getting the victim to love the siren more than the person they love the most, be it romantic, or brotherly, or familial love, it didn’t matter, as long as it was strong, like Sam and Dean’s love for each other.
It's one of those things that will be perfect in hindsight (if they ever chose to go there). I know that the writers used it for the shock value, but they also consciously put Dean's character once again in the position of being mistaken for queer.
And, in my POV, of course, Aaron did NOT mistaken Dean for a gay man. Actually, he saw a 'straight' man and came up with a plan to make Dean go away as fast as possible. Because if he had thought Dean was gay, what would he have done if Dean had said 'yes, let's get together', since Aaron made clear later that he, himself, was not gay?
And the siren episode, I understand your interpretation, but it still doesn't explain Sam's role in the fight. That is the main reason why I agree with PaintedWolf - we are talking here about brotherly love between Sam and Dean, not romantic love. Nothing incestuous, then.
As for Dean being mistaken as bi/gay, I didn't mean him being directly mistaken as queer as much as I meant the writers deliberately putting Dean in these types of situations in general. Although, the episodes you mentioned are really interesting in that regard because they provide a stark contrast between Sam and Dean's reactions towards being mistaken for gay. Sam immediately brushes it off, he doesn't feel threatened or worried, because he has nothing to worry about, he is very comfortable with his masculinity, identity, sexuality, whatever. It's always Dean who lingers on it way too long or acts defensive or starts asking questions about it. My favorite exchange is this one actually:
Quote:So here we have Dean thinking about this sentence for at least half an hour after he heard it (the scene was in the motel room well after they've already settled in). Not only that, we also have Sam telling him that he was butch and overcompensatin g (which is probably true, hence the look on Dean's face). Sam directed that sentence only at Dean, not on both of them (because he knows himself, but more importantly he knows his brother very well and probably knows exactly what's bothering him).
Of course, some of the moments could be a nod to Wincest, but they always make sure that Dean has the proper reaction in a true "lady doth protest too much" style.
My Aaron interpretation: he needed to sound plausible so he used their "eye magic" moment to make it seem he was flirting, he used what he thought would work. If he was really worried about being asked on a date, he could always just... you know, not show up. I don't know, Aaron looked pretty smart, it's not a stretch to think he might have picked up something on his gaydar.
I don't know, it's just this whole flirting thing with men, it's always Dean in these types of situations. Off the top of my head: Aaron, ranger Rick, the coroner (forgot the episode), the deputy from 'Yellow Fever', dr. Sexy, Nick the siren, Victor Henriksen (although this one's more of a Dean flirting with an authority figure, and then connecting on an emotional level) and obviously Castiel. He shared a connection with Gordon, Victor, Castiel, Benny. Other involuntary (sometimes even sexually aggressive encounters) are with the vampire from 'Live Free or Twi Hard', the possessed man in 'Southern Comfort', the flirting thing he did for Charlie (and with ease, if I might add), he lets himself being manhandled by Deacon in 'Folson Prison Blues', sexual jabs at a demon in 8x01, police officer who pulled him over (forgot the episode)....
(as a contrast, Sam is always the one saving or connecting with the ladies for example)
Any of those things on its own mean next to nothing, but together they form a pattern of consistently writing Dean in a way that challenges his masculinity and sexuality on a regular basis.
As to Aaron, they didn’t show the supposed ‘eye magic’ moment, so I cannot say if it existed or not. And if it existed, I believe Dean should have taken the opportunity, not negate it and leave. At least ask for the guy’s number!
My interpretation of the “Playthings†dialogue: Sam took the opportunity to tease Dean, Dean made a ‘you got me’ face and then took the first opportunity he had to pay Sam in the same coin – the playing with dolls thing, which made Sam clearly uncomfortable. Nothing but brotherly banter, Hell House style, and that’s it.
I disagree with you that Sam connects and saves the girls and Dean connects with guys. I understand it is reasonable even throughout the series.
I was looking through the list of episodes and I was able to recall Dean saving/connecti ng with girls in Wendigo, Dead in the Water, Scarecrow, Hollywood Babylon, What is and Should Never Be, Sin City, The End, Monster Movie, The Mentalists, The Slice Girls, Sam Interrupted… Not to mention Cassie, Jo, Lisa, Anna, Pamela, Bela… and strippers, of course!
And Sam with male characters in Nightmare, Simon Said, Crossroad Blues, Houses of the Holy, Metamorphosis, Wishful Thinking, After School Special, The Curious Case of Dean Winchester, Bedtime Stories, Dream a Little Dream of Me, 99 Problems, The Devil you Know, Manequim 3, Frontierland…
I knew about shippers (Destiel, Wicest etc..) but I had never really read any articles about that. Granted, I only started reading fandom pages at the very end of season 6. So, I didn’t know there were examples of Dean flirting with other guys – the first time I read it, it was here. I thought I was missing something I’ve sincerely never seen before so I read some articles and replayed the scenes you mentioned and watched them with my mind open till my eyes bled, by I wasn’t able to conclude any of them as flirting scenes.
We’ve already discussed Aaron and Nick. This is my POV in both of them: I never saw them as Dean flirting. Also wasn’t able to see any flirting with ranger Rick, the soldier in Time after Time, drunken Dean in Yellow Fever or Dr. Sexy. The last one I just saw a fan facing an actor he liked. I’ve got plenty of male friends who are not gay or bi, but are fans that would fall head over heels and act like a fool if coming face to face with Mick Jaeger, Paul McCartney, any actor who played James Bond, Harrison Ford, famous football players... Mostly like Dean with Dr. Sexy or Eliot Ness, or Sam with the football player in Heartache. And myself and gay friends who would feel the same!
The ghost in Southern Comfort was a new example for me – I though he liked Dean just because the boy is really good in keeping grudges, as the ghost was! And Victor??? Really??? Where and when, exactly? And Dean getting beaten by Deacon in Folson Prison Blues – you mean he liked it??!!
Don’t know what you mean about a connection with Gordon – you mean sexual? Ugh, I hate Gordon, Dean has got a better taste than that! The vampire in LFTH – he was creepy, gay or not, those scenes were tense and not in a good way!
Sexual jabs are typical Dean. He is always the one with inappropriate jokes at inappropriate time (‘Let’s bone this nun’ is the best example, and the worst joke ever in this show, IMO!). I take it as a manifestation of his immature, boyish side. Different from Sam, who is never on board with his brother’s jokes (poor Dean!).
I’m sure Dean knows very well how girls flirt with boys. I’m sure he had many girls flirting with him to know what works and what doesn’t.
In short, I tried, but I wasn’t able to find any scene that might be definately interpreted as Dean flirting with a guy. The same with Sam: I don’t believe Sam was flirting with the witch in The Curious Case of Dean Winchester, although the witch was evidently interest in Sam and, on top of it, gave him the clap. Or that Sam was flirting with the bartender in 99 Problems or with Samuel Colt in Frontierland, or yet with Kevin in 8.01 (Ugh! Jailbait), although all those scenes are in the same level of subtle as the Dean scenes are.
My conception of flirting is more like the one in the Slice Girls. But, hey, as some posts here stated, I’m not gay so I don’t know if there is any difference with same sex flirting, as I never flirted with a girl nor I recall any girl flirting with me (although I would like that!).
Dean and Castiel… That’s another kind of relationship entirely. There certainly is love, but I don’t believe there is romantic love. But that would take another 1.000 pages.
I agree with you about Playthings. If Dean is genuinely worried about being perceived as one half of a gay couple, why does he bother to make the comment about Sam and the dolls? Remember that only we are privy to the boys' conversation about Dean over-compensati ng, not the hotelier. From her point of view it just re-introduces the question about whether they might be gay antiquers. Why would someone apparently afraid of himself, full of machismo and suppressing his sexuality put himself in that position? And if he's doing it for 'the job' then its clear he doesn't mind being thought of as potentially gay/bi if it moves a case along. That is also (IMHO) why he 'flirts' with ranger-Rick, the deputy etc. etc. If he's just doing it to tease Sam, then making sure people don't think he's queer is pretty low on his order of priorities!
I laughed out loud at the "Let's bone this nun" line (I did feel a bit guilty!!) and Sam's reaction, as always, made it perfect. There were other things I liked about that story too but they are too off-topic!
Good points, Arad. Cheers!
Oh and it was a great summation Ale!
I laughed hard at the "awkward" in Croatoan
I do find it interesting the way this logic can be reversed in terms of Dean's view of Cas and how many Destiel fans apply it though. I don't mean to argue here at all. Seeing one thing (Cas) and being unable to see the other (a male vessel). I personally don't think that's truly the case in regards to Dean's sexuality in any way. Just merely throwing that out there.
But my answer was still the same. For Dean, I think he would always see Jimmy's form when talking to Cas and just couldn't make that switch in his head and because I do think he sees Cas as a brother. So the only difference is he'd see Cas as a sister.
And with Cas, like I said before I have trouble seeing him as a sexual being. I don't think putting him in female form would change that. Now I supposed if you're talking ACTUALLY doing this on the show (which will never happen because Misha is adored) than I supposed an actress' interpretation could likely be different enough that I might see it.
Because I don't have a problem with all angels having sex. Balthazar was quite randy. As was Gabriel. And I could definitely see why Anna had sex with Dean (even though technically she wasn't an angel at the time). But Misha has always played Cas as different. He doesn't have to same sense of humor, he very very reserved, sex seems to embarrass him.
Even though I thought his "pizza man" line was hilarious and his innocent flirting with Meg amusing as well. It only really worked for me at all because both were done in such a childlike manner. If they had him move to a sexual relationship with Meg. It would make me VERY uncomfortable, I think.
Him with Meg just doesn't work for me on so many levels, but the most important thing is his complete disinterest in her.
I would be totally against changing vessels, Misha is too integral part of the show for me at the moment.
Obviously, we're going to disagree again on Dean & Cas' relationship, but the whole angel falling for the man, numerous lines, scenes and interactions between them scream romantic to me. Scream, as in 'not subtle at all'. They have the most cheesy lines and closeups. The whole river reunion scene, complete with the lighting and the music... I just... I don't even want to talk about it, because I don't want to use up the 10k word limit, so let's not even go there. I know you see it as brotherly, but that's fine, too.
He definitely seemed interested in Meg when he crazy. That is only time we've seen Cas as flirty. Well except in the future. Which shows he could become like that obviously, but if he did would he really be Cas. If he becomes sexual driven and motivated, I think it will lose an important part of what makes Cas -Cas.
I didn't say I wanted Cas to change vessels. I absolutely do not. I love Misha. I was addressing Never Ebrez's thought, that the vessel Cas wore was a costume to an extent and what if it were changed. I was not suggesting it should be changed. In fact I specifically said I did not ever see that happening.
Many of the scene you see as romantic. I see as intense. And here's my best argument for that and then I will drop because, like you said I don't think we are going to ever agree. The scenes between Cas and Dean are sometimes extremely intense or passionate (not using this in the sexual connotation). I think Dean loves Cas and they have a very complicated relationship. I don't see it as a sexual/romantic relationship simply because of that though.
I could show you a Dean and Sam scene for every Cas and Dean (and the throw in many more S & D in to boot) and they would be even more passion filled, more intense, hell more needy in every way. And I think we agree that that is not a sexual relationship. (though it is probably the reason for wincesters ew).
Just because a relationship is passionate and filled with love does not make that relationship sexual. The nature of the show simply breeds that relationship. The primary one being Sam and Dean, but Cas and Dean fit the bill too. As did John and the boys and Bobby and the boys. And to a lesser extent Dean and Benny.
I'm going to plagiarize myself and Arad here a little from a few days ago, because even after sleep it did make sense to me. And I loved Arad's line about Dean not expressing his greatest love by sex.
I think it's because the person who Dean has always loved the most is Sam. And since that is in no way sexual, he hasn't no trouble disconnecting the two. Most boys like to pretend they don't have deep feelings for others until puppy love/puberty hits. But he had to be nurturing and loving (not in a romantic/sexual way) when he was very young. He'd already lost his mom and his dad was under constant threat, so I think he learned as a child to accept that he cared deeply for people, especially Sam.
So by the time puberty hit, he didn't need to drown in hormones to admit he had cared about people. And didn't necessarily connect the two, like our society has a tendency to do. And that has carried over to his other male relationships. Bobby, Cas, Benny. I believe he loved them all but has no sexual desire for any of them.
It seems that we also don't agree on Cas' characterizatio n, because he's far from innocent to me. He might not understand social norms, but that's because he's completely unconcerned with them, and not because he's unable to understand them. He's more alien than childlike to me.
Cas & Meg -- I never saw the attraction, only maybe attachment, and all the lines heavily suggested that crazy Cas was using Meg to constantly remind the Winchesters that they left him behind with a demon. The same species they condemned him for working with in s6 in the first place.
Now, if your just not wanting to compare because you see Cas and Dean as having a sexual elements than, I apologize, and we can simply agree to disagree. Because I do see them as very similar, (Dean often does take on a father/mentor role with Cas as well.) -just to a lesser degree with Cas and Dean. Both have there problems and dysfunctions but both relationships come down to love and family.
Cas & Dean have their problems, too. They were especially noticeable in season 6. Season 6&7 were actually the seasons that convinced me of their romantic relationship because of the way they acted when things weren't happy or ideal. Season 6 had the cheating husband/scorned wife dynamics, while s7 explored Dean's grief as if he were widowed. They can be incredibly destructive when things go the wrong way, but at the same time they pull the best out of each other when they manage to work through their issues.
The betrayed thing Dean had going with Cas in S6 and S7 paralleled his behavior with Sam in S5. They had a whole breakup episode. He was upset about Cas no doubt, but he'd been betrayed by someone he loved again. I don't see it as anything more than that. I'm sorry I see them as brothers not as anything more.
Misha confirmed that the writers are aware of their relationship being written as romantic, yet it's not sexual at the moment. So either they're going to be eventually, or they never will be. If they're consciously writing them as romantic, yet don't have any intention of making it canon, then the only thing this whole thing suggests is that they won't go though with it just because it's the same sex couple. I already talked about why I think that wouldn't be ok. I just want them to make up their minds (or maybe they already have, and we'll just have to wait and see).
When have we ever seen and supported a heterosexual romantic relationship and not wanted it to be fully consummated? Not necessarily on-screen, but the idea that two characters that love each other romantically should become sexually involved (if one partner isn't clearly asexual) feels like a natural step. And in the case of Dean and Cas relationship, considering the pleasure Dean's clearly derives from sexual intimacy, it sounds downright cruel.
But I do agree with Rhaenyss that I believe Cas values romantic relationship above any carnal ones. And I agree with you that it's one of the things I like about Cas! But I'd still think an episode that would explore it further or a story line that tapped into that side of Cas would be interesting.
Actually, imo it would generally be interesting to see the writers deal more with the consequences of giving angels free will (they might as of yet address that in this season though).
Momecat, two things: The future Castiel is totally cut off from heaven. He also appears to be primarily interested in women and to smoke too much dope
I understand that some people like to glorify platonic love as something pure and that merely exists without the sexual (which I'd like to point out is not what Plato's meant btw) but personally I think that only really applies if one/both of the partners are asexual.
See quote of previous comment I made:
Quote:
It's too easy to reverse that sentence of yours to "gosh, why should it have to be platonic?", especially since they're written as they are. I'm not a big fan of the stance that 'platonic' love is somehow better, especially since the whole story is written as romantic (and physical would be just a side effect of romantic, at least in their case at the moment, since they don't have sex, but already love each other).
For example, if you forget that they are Dean and Cas, and someone tells you they're romantically involved even though they don't show you the physical part of it, ask yourself what would have to change in their canon relationship to make you see it as romantic? My personal answer would be - absolutely nothing.
Platonic and romantic loves are (to me, at least) distinctively different. For example, Sam & Dean would be a prime example of platonic love (although a bit dysfunctional, but that's understandable under the circumstances). I just don't see the same with Dean & Cas, sorry. I don't want to get into it in detail and hijack the discussion, since this is not a thread for Dean & Cas, but I hope you see my point of view.
And I'd agree to disagree on your last comment, because I really think Dean enjoys sex and wouldn't want to be without it.
So, I am quite familiar the Symposion (and the rest of Plato). I think for modern people 'Platonic love' excludes the sexual and the romantic, but that is not really what Plato describes. I don't think this is the forum for trying to do justice to Plato's concept of love which is very rich and complex. Suffice to say that it includes concepts such as salvation through love of the other, or a way for what you might call a 'non-vulgar Don Juan' (such as Dean) to attain that love for which his many sexual encounters are just grasping towards. In essence a Platonic love might be sexual, but Plato would say that the sexual aspect merely traps the lover (who is always truly seeking the good) at the stage of identifying love itself with physical or intellectual beauty, which are only its signs.
Anyway, that is by-the-by.
momecat: I would love to know how we know Dean's feelings about sex as of where we stand in the show today. As far as I know he hasn't had any since the last season, and before that, I think it was Lisa? To me he has grown up a lot and is less interested in sex generally, but certainly less for 'enjoyment'. As I've said, I see Dean-as-lover not primarily driven or expressing his loves physically.
Sex (devoid of emotions) was for the long time just a passing comfort for Dean, and he moved away from it in the past couple of seasons. I think he's touch starved, but doesn't want it anymore if he can't have the emotional part as well. He grew out of his promiscuity, but needs love more than ever. That's probably the strongest reason I'd like him to have a meaningful relationship with Cas. I literally can't see the negative in it.
Btw, I'm not offended, don't worry. I was just adressing the fact that the sentence 'platonic is better' is often used when people acknowledge Dean & Cas as loving each other, yet they don't want to see it on screen. I wasn't talking to you directly, just making a point.
Glad to hear you're familiar with Plato. :)
Quote:Don't get me wrong, I agree completely with your above statement! But I'd also like to add that I believe Dean likes being intimate with people he care about (see Lisa, Cassie, both people he loved/cared for greatly) and thus intimacy would just be a natural part of such a relationship for Dean imho.
So I'm basically saying that if there is a romantic relationship between Dean and Cas, it would only make sense that there was a physical aspect of it given our knowledge of Dean's previous amorous relationships.
I do love to debate though, philosophical or otherwise so.... Terms take on new meaning constantly. (Especially romantic that word has like 25 meanings). Today's usage of romantic tends to be that you are "in love" or falling in love with the person and at least moving towards a possible sexual relationship. So a platonic romance doesn't jive with that meaning. But if the meaning some kind deeper bond that is not moving towards or a desire for a sexual relationship than I have no issue with it.
NOT that I see Dean and Cas like that, I was just struck by the idea.
When just discussing writing direction for the season what has to be considered here is the original vision of TPTB was that Anna lead Dean in the Heaven vs Hell battle, not Cas anyway. Fan response to Cas dictated he replace Anna, thus the more romantic nature of their storyline in the first place. That one decision has dictated so much in regards to this show and it's just the first of a thousand other compounded things that factor into my own personal "Why I support Destiel equation" ( that I'm not going to discuss because it will just waste time). Hell, the writers strike was the only reason we have Cas's character in the first place since Sam was originally suppose to save him from going to Hell. Some things creative vision just can not account for real life, and again not the point.
Since many have mentioned Cas naivety I'll briefly address this (Dean himself mentions it frequently, but for different reasons imo). I guess what I identify most with Cas here (me being able to see his sexual nature as something other than generally non-existence or likewise innocence ) is supported by the "Castiel generally showing autistic qualities meta" vs some people saying Cas is like a child (two very different things which unfortunately I have no readily available links concerning). It's something I connected with very early on since I have two autistic children and get to see their reasoning frequently. This social understanding was briefly referenced to in "The Man Who Would Be King" ala Castiel's favorite heaven. Such a discussion doesn't really belong in a thread discussion on Dean's sexuality so I'll just leave it at Castiel can't really be classified as having an innocent sexual outlook. An embarrassed one (or rather nervous one) I'd agree with.
All my reasoning based on that hypothetical still stand though for me.
Although I do have to wonder. Did the writers really not see the kind of romantic connection that could be drawn between Dean and the angel who pulled him out of Hell? Why not cast Anna for that to begin with? I think they tried to mix her original storyline (Sam saving Dean from going to Hell= then later the brothers meeting a fallen angel who regains her grace and fights with them - idk - is that the original storyline? Not sure.) into the new one (that forced the production team to send Dean to Hell instead of finishing out the rest of the 8 planned episodes of the season) and failed miserably. I just don't know what they were thinking with that. Not that I care because personally I love Misha. Just saying. And again, another post that doesn't have anything to do with Dean's sexuality, just writing decisions...
And angel falling from grace for a human is literally always some kind of cheesy love story, especially if you draw parallels from the movie that inspired Cas -- "Wings of Desire". Angel in a trenchcoat who falls for a broken human (girl). They even have a character in the movie called Cassiel, AND Misha once referenced the movie as the one that heavily influenced the way he plays Castiel and what he'd love from his character in the future (AND unrelated, but they even have an actor who plays Colombo in it -- also known for his tan trenchcoat).
It's is kinda impossible to think of anyone else as Cas now. And I have trouble imagining it the other way. I like the girl who played Anna but I can't imagine taking on Cas' larger role. No one else plays an angel quite like he does.
When first introduced in the series, Cas was a faithful servant of God and God’s cause, that he believed was the same as the Angels. He loved and trusted God and had no doubt in his mind about his role and his mission. With this mind set, he rescued Dean from Hell and introduced himself, stating from the start that Dean had a mission assigned by God himself. Dean was THE Chosen One. But instead of an obedient child, eager to do anything God wanted him to do without question his orders, he found a faithless, self-loathing man, that felt unworthy of been saved. Worst, a man that questioned and doubted everything from the start, even God himself, and was doing the exact opposite of what he was as asked to do.
But still, even in his pain, his doubts, his lack of faith and in his weakness, Dean was still a leader, a relentless warrior, a man of strong convictions – his own, not the angels. And a man with a lot of love in his heart, especially for his brother.
I believe this mixture fascinated Cas from the start. Dean was nothing Cas was expecting from The Chosen One. Still, he could not help himself but like Dean and, through S04, respect him and ultimately be contamined by Dean’s doubts especially when the Angels orders were becoming farther and farther from his understanding of what God’s wanted, from God’s love for humanity and His creation, which was what Cas believed himself. This culminated in Cas, at the very end of S04, choosing to trust Dean over the Angels, his superiors, after an intense, passionate speech from Dean.
Breaking ranks, cutting ties with Heaven, rebelling against his own race was very difficult to Cas. He rebelled against everything he knew all his life. But he still believed in God, and he did it for Dean, as The Chosen One from God.
At the begging of S05, it was the Angels that disappointed Cas. He was rebelling against them and he was ready to fight with Dean for the sake of Humanity, but he still believed in God. But the problem really started when God disappointed Cas (and Dean). He was totally crushed. His faith in God died. And that was the moment when he switched and put his whole faith in Dean. That’s why he was so pissed when Dean was about to say yes to Michael.
Bottom line, Cas love, trust and faith in God was all transferred to Dean. Dean’s, the Winchesters’ cause was Cas’ cause now. He was fighting with them (Tem Free Will), they were now their brothers in arms, not the Angels anymore. And when, against all odds, the Apocalypse was averted by the Winchesters, Cas faith in them was reaffirmed, even over his faith in God (all of this in “The Man Who Would be Kingâ€).
In my mind, Dean was the substitute of God for Cas, even if he doesn’t fully realize that, because he still is very much aware that Dean is just a man. But that’s why Dean’s approval of him, of his plan at the end of S06 was so important to Cas, that’s why he begged Dean to believe in him, as he believed in Dean.
As for Dean, I think he is aware of his influence in Cas, and he feels responsible for him (because he kind of is, since Dean was the one who convinced Cas to rebel). He respects and trust him for his courage to rebel, and loves him for that but, I believe, like an older brother loves a little brother. And that is why, IMO, Cas betrayal and death was so hard on Dean.
And that is my understanding of Dean and Cas relationship. For Dean, is a big brother/little brother/mentor/ brothers in arms kind of love, and real respect for what Cas did in rebelling against Heaven for his beliefs, his love for Humanity. And for Cas, is more of a spiritual love, that yes, can be stronger and much more intense than an ordinary, romantic, couples love (although also beautiful).
I’m not religious, but I have read about people how experienced intense faith, religious fervor. Some described it as an ecstasy. It’s well known in Catholicism, for example, in what saints describes as their experiences. It’s very intense, there is a lot of passion. But it is not romantic, or sexual, at all, although it sometimes looks like it is. So, if this is a little the kind of love Cas has got for Dean, as I believe it is, I can understand why it can easily be mistaken by a romantic, couples love.
Again, that’s only my opinion. I don’t know for certain if there is any of this in the writers mind when they wrote this storyline. I believe they did something like that, yes, though.
And I know my opinion will probably not be very much popular amidst Destiel shippers. But, hey, I said in the beginning I summoned the courage to post it…
and the time to write it.
But as she pointed out I don't see Dean is being a replacement of God for Cas, especially considering how they both have deadbeat-dads (as Dean points out). A brother perhaps but not a father.
With all this said I'm definitely more interested in seeing their love being of a romantic nature (and like Misha pointed out "just cause it’s unspoken doesn’t mean it’s not real") so yeah, agreeing to disagree on the nature of their relationship is probably the best conclusion this discussion can end in. ;)
Ah, well, I knew I wouldn't please very much everyone that wants a romatic relationship between Dean and Cas... Even so, I still believe what they have is very meaninful
Also, our concept of flirting is different, I suppose. I'm mostly referring to the subconscious behavior around people you connect with or find desirable (whether you know it or not), not the behavior of a person with a clear intent of 'scoring', for the lack of a better term.
Everything you said is completely valid, and that's just the point, isn't it? His heterosexuality doesn't need defending because due to heteronormativi ty everyone can fall back on it. Until canon explicitly states that he had encounters with men, he is straight and period, we are conditioned to explain his actions as straight.
I think one of the reasons Dean's sexuality sprouted so much meta and words on it even back in season 2 was because many people see themselves in it. His story is realistic and subtle. Someone closeted acts overly defensive and overcompensates , especially if you take into account their background & upbringing. I have a bisexual and genderqueer friend who often wears men's clothes and brings girls home, yet her mother was completely satisfied with her answer of "I'm not gay." and proceeded to think of her as straight, even though her bisexuality was right in her face. She identifies with Dean strongly because it resonates with her on some level. I'm mostly straight (judging by my current relationship, even though I can't say for certain what would happen out of it, in that regard I guess mainly define myself as demi-sexual), so I never had to face those issues, but I talked with numerous people who had similar experiences.
That being said, it's another thing to have it on TV -- it doesn't count if it isn't stated explicitly, however right and plausible it might seem. That's why I hope they would confirm it already, I'd much rather have him openly straight than constantly joked and teased about his ambiguous sexuality. It's disrespectful to actual queer people who certainly aren't amused that their sexuality isn't 'important' enough to warrant a serious storyline.
(I apologize, I did not want to go into the whole social justice rant, because I'm not the right person to talk about it. Most of my queer friends have said words and words on this issue back on tumblr already, and certainly much better than I ever will, I just added my 2c.)
One more thing, you misunderstood me on Dean's encounters with Gordon & Victor. I mainly refer to the scene with Dean & Gordon talking in the bar (their first episode, I think), and Dean & Victor bonding in 'Jus in Bello', and it's not just them (Benny, Cas). It's a specific type of emotional bonding Dean can never really achieved with women. Women are either idolized as perfect and/or mother figures (Lisa, Ellen, Mary), weaker and in need of protecting (Jo, "damsel in distress" of the episode), or simply as sexual objects and passing comfort. This has always been a part of my understanding of Dean Winchester and I think those issues go way back into his childhood. If Lisa was the most significant female relationship of Dean's life, his bond with Castiel still surpasses everything he went through with her on a purely emotional level.
For all the other examples that seemed to shock you, I mainly listed them as yet another time Dean was put into a sexually suggestive position against another male. And as I said before, it's an indication on part of the writers and their pattern of writing, not Dean specifically.
I’m not trying to defend Dean’s sexuality. When does sexuality needs defending¿ I’m just saying I cannot find anything to make me suppose he might be bi, I’m can just say for sure is that he likes girls. What can I conclude then, if not that he is straight¿ I conclude that I am hetero not because of heteronormativi ty (new word for me, thank you), but because I was never interested in girls before. Put a girl like Angelina Jolie in my path and I might chance my mind (not kidding, I love her!).
Also I don’t think Dean has a problem relating with girls. I think he has a problem relating to anyone outside the hunting world. He has no friends outside the hunting world, and never had – not Sam, Sam is able to make friend outside the hunting world. I think that’s the point in ‘I cannot separate myself from the hunter’. He can only make a connection with hunters, people with violent lives, as his. And since SPN regretfully didn’t make any decent female hunter, Dean only relates with males. Hunters. In this case,
I agree with you with his upbringing having a part in it: how could he be able to connect with someone if they were always moving around¿ That’s why one night stand was the only way.
None of the examples ‘shocked’ me. I’m just amazed how far from perceiving what you are saying I am. But that’s ok, isn’t it¿
I've written words and words, but it all boils down to this -- Dean's sexuality is discussed for a reason. I'm providing these reasons & opinions & the general stance of people who see it (sometimes I manage it sometimes I don't, after all I'm not much of a writer & I've read much better meta from people who are more insightful than me). Many people identify with the story, but then again many people don't, and it's entirely up to you to interpret it however you want.
The point is that we're not inventing subtext, it's there. I'd rather for it to be text, either straight or bi, but at the moment it's all we have, so that's why it attracts such heated discussions.
(( Just a random example of what I'm saying -- I don't know if you ever watched Suits? It has a strong Harvey/Mike slash fandom, BUT the major difference is that no one is questioning Mike's sexuality, because it doesn't have foundation in canon whatsoever. Yet Dean's sexuality was up for discussion as early as s1-2. Obviously, something is different, or there wouldn't be so many people talking about it. You can't attribute it to the introduction of Castiel's character either, because it started way before that. ))
I'm not trying to change your mind, I respect your opinion and interpretations , because they're just as valid as mine. My main problem is with people who see it, yet don't want anything to come out of it -- that's the one line of reasoning I can't get behind, it's just cruel. If you're going to have a valid argument for fearing the storyline & its execution, it should be: "I honestly don't see it.", "I don't think the writers will do the storyline justice." Bringing relationship wars and petty fights into this is just distasteful (I'm not talking about you & I haven't seen it here at all, but tumblr is sometimes ripe with hate and misplaced arguments)
I just want to add that, before I read your reasons (and others in this site), I didn’t know why some thought Dean might be bi. I assumed it was because Dean was the butch, while Sam was the more sensitive one, and people love to mess up with macho types. Normally, they don’t make fun of gay people with that, but actually make fun of the, usually homophobic, macho man – and I’m on board with that, since I don’t appreciate homophobes (just for the record, I don’t think Dean is homophobic).
Now, I can better see where you are coming from, although I don’t agree with it.
I went crazy. I started hacking and slashing and firing. They actually seemed surprised. I don’t think anybody’s ever done that before. Yeah. I had a close encounter, Sam, and I won.
One of Deans best lines
However if it were that Oberon was who Dean had seen then the example would be just as valid as any of the other examples - the suggestion that because other men are sexually interested in Dean in some way 'proves / shows' that he is bi or gay.
But I promised myself I was going to stay off this discussion and I am failing
I'm just saying.
This whole thread has been really wonderful and has given me perspective on certain scenes I didn't see before. Wonderful from all of you.
I'm not sure why this is being misunderstood or questioned. It was addressed in the episode.
First off I'd imagine the biggest reason why your suggestion about Sam & Dean being revealed as a married couple instead of brothers is that they'd have to retcon so much of the series they'd be better off starting from scratch.
In discussing Dean's sexuality you first have to understand that he's the embodiment of several thematic forces in SPN: the ordinary human hero (vs Sam as the supernatural hero), the fixed underclass (vs Sam's upward mobility and class-passing), practical/mecha nical intelligence (vs Sam's academic intelligence), the soldier/good son/Michael archetype (vs Sam as the individualist/r ebellious son/Lucifer archetype), the nurturer/caregi ver (vs Sam as the son/younger brother), and especially relevant to this article, traditionally masculine (vs Sam's more modern sensitivity).
Now here's the thing. SPN is extremely subversive when it comes to the examination of class and masculinity, and these two things are deeply intertwined. For the lower- and underclass, "traditional masculinity" (to wit: physical strength valued over academic intelligence, emotional detachment, violent problem-solving , promiscuity, domineering attitude over anyone who could be construed as subordinate or lesser, strict obedience to one's superiors, a degree of lack of sophistication, defense of others in the form of physical rather than physical support, wage dominance, athleticism, objectifying view of women, and strict heterosexuality ) combined with the expectation of finding gainful employment in manual labour or military service is treated as the measure of a male-bodied person's worth. It's so highly valued that to attack an underclass man's masculinity (and oh but traditional masculinity is ironically as fragile as the thinnest glass) is to attack his personhood, worthiness, and agency. (Don't believe me? Go yell at a construction worker that he wears frilly panties and see what happens.)
Now think back over the whole of the course of the series. When one of the boys' masculinity is questioned, it's either someone targeting Dean or Dean targeting Sam. With the exception of times when Dean's put him on the spot as an act of revenge, Sam – the long-haired, empathetic, puppy-eyed brother – never seems threatened by these cracks. He's secure enough in his sexuality and masculinity that he doesn't feel the need to jump to his own defense. Sam moved up into the middle class for a time and even after falling back down into the underclass he can still pass as being of higher social station. When Sam is threatened with sexual or sexualised assault it's from women; when it's Dean, his attackers are men. NB: THIS SUGGESTS NOTHING ABOUT HIS ORIENTATION. This is instead a conscious decision on the part of the writers to subvert and attack Dean's masculinity because he's far, far more defensive about it.
(As a corrolary to this, the fact that other characters, primarily middle- and upper-middle-cl ass ones, read Dean as being queer has the additional effect of reinforcing him as Other from the POV of a middle-class, casually-hetero sexist TV viewership; they're both "freaks" and outsiders, remember? Yeah.)
But being underclass is only part of the reason that Dean is this way. The boys were raised by a domineering military man born in the 50s, which screams "98% likely to be a raging homophobe" right off the bat; add on info from The Journal stating John took pride in Dean's womanising, violence, obedience, and dishonesty and you start getting the picture of an upbringing in which repressing any and all non-hetero, non-masculine, non-binary urges would be a matter of personal safety. It begins to explain a bit of why, for example, in 2.11 he reacts to Sam's surprisingly-ge ntle jab about Dean compensating (again, note that Sam felt no need to defend himself) by looking sullen and afraid rather than angry, suggesting there was a grain of truth there (and finally note that it was in response to this that he lashed out at Sam in the very next scene by telling the hotel owner that Sam loved dolls). In 1.08 and 4.18, as further examples, his protest against others' assumption that he and Sam are sleeping with each other is that it would be incestuous, not that it would be same-sex.
As for all the times he's told others he "doesn't swing that way" – context matters. Every single one of those times he's been in a situation in which he felt threatened. Since Dean doesn't weaponise his sexuality it wouldn't make sense for him to make a pass at another man to taunt him, but instead – staying true to the underclass norm he's had drilled into his head all his life – he emasculates the guy posing the threat by suggesting he's sexually attracted to Dean. I'll also point out that before he said he "[doesn't] play for [that] team" in 6.05, he TURNED AROUND TO OPENLY CHECK OUT WHO WAS ADDRESSING HIM BEFORE RESPONDING. Had it been someone who was more "his type" (and I'll discuss that later) approaching him in a non-aggressive manner when he wasn't on a case, there's a chance his response would have been different.
There have been numerous moments suggesting Dean isn't straight either not played for laughs or, when played for laughs, containing elements that subvert the "lol jk no homo" air as early as the first half of season one. There are plenty of metanalyses examining these moments; they aren't hard to find, so I challenge anyone who wants to claim that there's "no evidence" that Dean is bi to put forth a tiny modicum of effort to put aside your "straight until explicitly, painstakingly proven otherwise and btw there's only straight and gay nothing else" brainwashing for a moment and do some reading (gosh sorry was that bitter?). Sorry but when a guy completely ignores two beautiful, flashily-dresse d women passing by in favour of openly staring at a man's uniformed ass, that should tell you something right there; and that's only one example of many.
(cont'd)
Notably, when he displays these moments of arguable attraction to other men, he shows clear preference for a certain "type" just the same as he has a "type" he goes for in women.While he prefers anthletically-b uilt, long-haired, dark-eyed, ethnic women with outgoing personalities, his taste in men (presumed by flirty behaviour) runs towards dark hair, big (usually light) eyes, youthful faces, and uniforms or suits – often a little boyish but still clearly male (qv Castiel in 4.01, Deputy Linus in 4.06, Nick the Siren in 4.14, the de-aged Marine in 5.07, Doctor Sexy in 5.08, Ranger Evans in 7.09, unnamed soldier in 7.12, and Aaron in 8.13 [he breaks pattern in being dark-eyed and not dressed to display authority/power but he was the one who initiated contact]). The fact that this is consistent and distinct from his taste in women makes it a personality trait rather than just a coincidence. He's also expressed some gender-variant urges: eg, enjoying wearing women's underwear (5.04) and getting pleasantly lost in the thought of literally being an attractive young woman (4.07).
Again, these are things that Dean would have been pressured to repress both by a) his alpha-male, likely-homophob ic father and b) the homophobic, misogynistic, bisexual-erasin g culture of the underclass; but in the wake of his father's death he's finally been growing into his own person rather than what John expected him to be, and he's toed the waters here and there.
Ah, you might say, but that's only a viewer interpretation of subtext! –And you're right. Given both the heteronormative atmosphere of American mass media and the fact that Dean's communication is highly somatic it's no surprise that his flirtiness with other men is a matter of expression, gesture, and tone rather than pick-up lines...but he's very often that way with women as well. Still not convinced? Have a particularly choice quote, then:
"Dean’s a bit of a pool shark and also a bit of a gambler. It doesn’t really show it all the time, but it’s definitely implied that there are poker games and pool matches that they can win some money on. And who knows? Dean’s a promiscuous kind of guy. Who knows how he drums up the funds that they use?"
This isn't some fan's meta. That's Jensen Ackles from an interview dated March 2008 (www.buddytv.com/articles/supernatural/supernatural-star-discusses-fu-17304.aspx) – back before season 4 was shot or even cast, I might point out. Now I'd like to think this is common knowledge but the overwhelming majority of male sex workers' clients are male. Given SPN is a network show that's as close as we're ever going to get, I think, to the actor who arguably knows this character better than anyone save Eric Kripke outright saying that Dean turned tricks, and pure statistics say it's about 95% certain that if he did he was servicing other men. It's an open statement, yeah, and you could make other arguments about what Jensen was really suggesting, but apply Occam's Razor and you're right back to 'Dean's willingly had sex with other men for money'.
Even the base foundation of the character has strong bisexual connotations: Kripke named the character after Dean Moriarty from Kerouac's On the Road, who was not only canonically bisexual in the book (his sexual relationship with Carlo Marx was censored until the release of the original scroll in 2007) but was based on a real-life bisexual man, and Dean's style is modeled heavily after James Dean who was also bisexual; in the series itself (see 5.05) it's made clear that he is in fact a James Dean fan. I won't go into depth here about the gradual ramp-up in s8 to date that suggests Dean Winchester will come out or be outed as canonically bi (gods know this is long enough as it is) but I'll point out that regardless of how you choose to read his interactions with Aaron in 8.13, it bears noting that the FBI alias he used in that episode (and they're back to rock stars, remember) was Agent Bolan. As in Marc Bolan of the glam rock band T-Rex. Marc Bolan, who was into cars and Tolkein and drugs – and who was bisexual and at one point purportedly worked as a rentboy. That's the name trivia-happy Dean chose for himself. And that's the name Ben Edlund deliberately chose to have him use to introduce himself to a young man who proceeded to openly hit on him, to which Dean very notably did not turn down on the basis of not being of compatible orientation.
Buddy if you think Ben Edlund puts anything in his scripts by accident you haven't been paying attention to his writing at all.
While I'm tempted to say that the suggestions that Dean's sexuality might be...ah, a little more fluid than the Hetero Manly Man façade to which he's been forced to conform for most of his life would dictate, may have originally been something that was nothing more than subverting "traditional masculinity" and affording the Winchesters' enemies a highly personal button to push while occasionally getting a "har har mistaken for gay/incestuous because he's pretty" laugh out of the straight audience members, I think subtle choices in acting and writing early on laid the groundwork for TPTB to take it more seriously as a possibility. I also think that Purgatory's purification and various other elements have put Dean at a near ideal time in his life to finally address his sexual identity issues: to leave behind the One-Night Wonder Womaniser that John expected him to be behind and embrace the fact that being attracted to other men, or even in love with another man, would not emasculate him. In fact at this point there's been SO much blatant hinting/alludin g to this as not just a possible outcome but a probable one that if TPTB chickens out and pulls a "lol j/k no homo" after all it would be a giant fuck-you to us real-life LGBT folk.
And Hell. I think we're all well aware that Sam'd be 100% cool with it anyway.
That leaves Castiel or a new character, and honestly I don't see why they'd bring in a new character as a love interest when they've pretty much already been writing a messy, tragic love story between a repressed human renegade and the worst angel ever (from an in-setting POV) for the past ~4 years now. I mean they could have set the 8.02 river scene to "The Wings" by Gustavo Santaolalla and it couldn't have been a more blatantly romantic a reunion, shy of one of 'em getting dipped. From the narrative and technical standpoints it would be more efficient and consistent to work with what's already present than construct something new.
(Of course, as a writer I'm biased, in that I really dislike the introduction of characters specifically to be love interests; that's part of why I disliked Anna* and was wary of Amelia.)
Even if one were to ignore seasons 4-7, the change in Dean between his escape from Purgatory and Cas' return in 8.07 is remarkable: simply having him back and knowing he's safe (for the small amount of time the latter lasted) was enough to bring Dean around from being a moping, sleepless, shell-shocked wreck to something closer resembling his...well. Does Dean even really HAVE a "normal self" to return to? I think he's figuring out what that actually is; but in any case he's at a point where he can smile and crack jokes and enjoy a brew again. Panning out from the focus on season 8 what we're seeing now is the healing process from a series of wounds going back to season 6 – and, really, even those are just trauma on top of existing trauma going all the way back to his early childhood. Purgatory, as has been mentioned, is a place of cleansing, and now that he's also been absolved of the guilt of believing he left Cas behind he's going forward again – and Castiel has been shown to be as pivotal to Dean's emotional and mental well-being as Sam is. He needs them both, just in different ways.
Honestly, were they to go that route, not a hell of a lot would change in their dynamic – neither the one between Dean & Cas nor the balancing act within Team Free Will such as it is. Maybe they'd communicate better but I wouldn't hold my breath for that!
*Fun fact: in the initial treatment for s4 Anna was supposed to be Dean's endgame love interest/guardi an angel, and Castiel was scripted to die at Alistair's hands (in 4.10 I think?), but between Misha's stage presence and the fanbase's reaction, TPTB reversed those roles, instead getting rid of Anna and having Castiel stick around as "guardian angel".
as for the above comment I made that was purely business pov. See sick or not we know there are wincest shippers in this fandom. If they pair Dean with some male character then the non existant wincest fantasy will shatter and we will lose viewers. Spn can't afford that.
Supernatural show breathe and alive due to the fans. Without wincest fans, or Destiel fans, or any Slash fans, you won't be able to watch SPN because it's cancelled years ago due to lack of rating.
PLEASE Don't mock them because they too are voters. They too contribute to the show and make profit for the network.
Also I don't quite think I fancy the fact that you're blatantly equating sibling incest with same-sex relations. These are not the same issue or demographic at ALL.
English is not my first language so I apologize for any idea you have gotten that I am equating sibling incest to same sex pairing.
In my eyes they are just TV characters not real life brothers. So the idea of wincest doesn't repulse me anymore.
Though I will quibble about one little part. I do think some of the demographics overlap. I know (well read them on the internet) many fan girls who seem to like both. And I often read reviews at After Elton and even though there their reviews have a funny tongue-in-cheek quality to them, they do play up both as well as Denny. And I've definitely read comments defending Wincest or Destiel equally -and I have to admit it really bothers me at times.
(Also, good call on ignoring the others' comments. Most of them will only make you angry in all the most predictable ways, trust me.)
Second, (and really don't want to offend here) but almost every single one of your examples was subjective and not how I, and I dare to say many others, saw those situations. I don't think I have ever seen Dean checking out another men. The only time that I would say half way qualifies is with in this last episode and that was done with specific purpose. I think all the others are a HUGE stretch.
I think your right that they play with the alpha male assumptions/ste reotypes and that is why Dean get so many of these situations. It just not as funny if Sam is fanboying over Dr Sexy. Just like it's not as funny if Dean gets caught watching porn, 'cause Dean is totally fine with people knowing he watches porn. (although he did try to hide it from Cas I guess, which was funny, again because it was not typical for him). And that is usually where the joke stems from. They are not making fun of homosexuality they are making fun of and twisting these alpha male stereotypes.
So to say that that if they don't play out this storyline it is a giant fuck-you is to say they have to stick a storyline that wasn't actually there to begin with, IMO. Obviously your opinion is different on this. But since this is subjective, I don't think you can assume that just because Cas and Dean don't hook-up that the writers are bowing to the will of TPTB or to the fans.
Third, in my interpretation, I don't see him trying to hide it if he were bi, because he deals which life and death issues that I don't think that it would occur to him to be bothered by thinking men are hot too. The only opinions he really cares about are his dad's, Sam's and Bobby's, so I see him flipping the bird to anyone else who says something. And I definitely don't see Sam or Bobby giving a shit. And as many issues as I have with John I don't think he would care either, for basically the same reason that Dean would care. They have weightier things to deal with. John was a hard ass, but it was always when he was dealing with life and death issues. We didn't see him saying anything that would lead us to believe that he would have a real issues with being bi. Young John especially seems very sweet and I don't see him turning into a raging homophobe because it wife is killed by a demon.
Also the name Dean being based on the "On The Road" character, that I could see because that was about an extended roadtrip in a classic car. I know Kripke also reference Route 66 in his pitch. I don't think he had deep motivations before the show even started to secretly have a character be bi. What would be the purpose of that? But again just my opinion.
Now the Edlund ones I would buy, but because he likes to mess with the fans. And considering the situations, I can see him thinking that was hilarious. Again I don't think he are the other writers are ever poking fun at homosexuality, so much as a gentle teasing of the fans. (I can just picture all the writers cracking up when the found out about Wincest and then it just snowballed from there). And for the most part done as an in joke, shared between them and us. I honestly don't think it was ever intended to be taken seriously, but again subjective.
Why would Dean admitting that he also likes guys be a distraction? The writers aren't that incapable of handling emotional issues.
Also, to say that the show "isn't a romantic relationship show" -- the entire premise of the show was built out of a man who went on a quest to revenge the death of his wife. We've had numerous romantic relationships on the show -- Sam/Jess (again, revenge plot for a dead loved one), Dean/Cassie, Sam/Sarah Blake, Dean/Lisa, Sam/Madison, Dean/Anna, Sam/Ruby, and Sam/Amelia -- all relationships that were treated as romantic on camera, complete with kisses and sometimes love scenes. This show is perfectly capable of having romantic and sexual relationships integrated into the throughline of the show.
Which is a distraction. I will give you this though. Dean turning bi is no more ooc than Sam not looking for Dean (and not as pivotal to the show) and they haven't really bothered to explain that one. AND THAT COMPLETELY PISSES ME OFF. But I'm certainly not going to advocate they just start randomly adding new character traits without bothering to establish them, since I'm not sure I can get over the one they added this year.
What people have suggested is that this season is already slowly building up Dean coming out of the bisexual closet by building on the hints that have been there for the entire show and making them more and more obvious. With 8.13 being the most obvious so far. I do believe that the show would need to continue to build and hint and make things more obvious as the show continues forward, specifically to reach viewers who are unaware of things like the Purgatory in Miami being a gay bar.
I understand that you haven't noticed the things Tom pointed out, but the whole point of foreshadowing is that you don't tend to notice until something big happens, at which point you can look back and go "ooooh." If it were obvious, it wouldn't be any fun! It's about laying a subtle foundation that can justify a change in hindsight (or upon re-watches). In Buffy the Vampire Slayer, for instance, Willow had a moment with her alternate universe self that suggested she was "kinda gay." It was a throwaway joke until she met Tara, and suddenly that joke became meaningful (which wasn't even planned in advance, by the way - Joss Whedon noticed the chemistry between them and ran with it). And the neat thing about foreshadowing, I think, is that it isn't always intentional. Sometimes people can be surprised by their own creations, you know?
Basically, while it might seem sudden and overnight to you, to other viewers it would be a long time coming, or at least make sense in the narrative. I have to admit, I was also about 90% sure it was just jokes/the writers messing with us and could explain it away until this season, and then 8x13 happened and completely floored me. Time is a precious commodity in television, and every line and shot is important, so the way that pub scene was framed is either meaningful (implying Dean is questioning or exploring his sexuality), or the biggest, cruelest tease I've ever seen in the show.
By the way, I also don't get the "eyesex" claims, and I'm with you on the Sam anger. They could have done a much better job explaining his motivations.
Definitely not winning me over with the Tara/Willow example I actually used that in another post as an example of why the Dean being bi thing wouldn't work. And I know some people were fine with it and some people liked Tara(she annoyed the hell out of me, at least they could have gotten Willow with some cool). But my biggest problem with it was they didn't earn it. It was just one day, Willow's over Oz and is gay. Now it real life that might be fine in a story, but it a story there needs be to be more in order for the audience to buy what their selling. To me it came off as a publicity stunt and I was very disappointed in the show.
And I believe that would be the same case with SPN, because while some people "might have seen it coming", IMO a majority of the viewers would disagree. So for the viewers to buy it (and since its being introduced in the 8th season some never would), it would have to become a real issues on the show. And this is not a show where sexuality is the big issue. It would feel extremely out of place for them to start discussing their sexual preferences. They don't really talk about sex at all. They BARELY have sex, at least on screen, we've got what 5 sex scenes total in 8 years.
So yes I see entering into that type of storyline as a unnecessary distraction. Because time is a precious time commodity as you say and the time it would take to tell the story properly would detract from the other storyline, that I feel are more pivotal to the show.
As far as 8 x 13, yes I think it was deliberately filmed to have that flirty effect, given the dialogue. But I'm sorry I don't think it was made to be taken in anyway seriously. Edlund loves to put the guys in kinda uncomfortable situations (hell all the writers do), but especially Dean. Lederhosen anyone? Again don't think he is in anyway making fun of gay people but of the straight people who embarrass themselves around them. (IE Ghostfacers -at least Dean's never been that big of an ass). And nudge, nudge wink winking fangirls who he knows fantasize being about Dean being bi.
Also I think you make a great point about the way sex is handled in general in SPN. That is, it plays at so close to zero people get so excited by eye-contact between two characters that they write a 20,000 essay about it. And I'll say it again (cause it bears repeating) Dean is not a character who expresses his greatest loves by sex.
As for 813, which I think is a great episode, I agree with your interpretation in that too. Although I would go so far as to say I think Dean was flattered by his "gay thing". Also, I suggest those who are seeing Ben Edlund as 'outing' Dean (or starting to) go back through the canon if his episodes and see what he makes of Dean even from the earliest days.
And I don't know if I said it before but I love your line about Dean not expressing his greatest love by sex. I again completely agree. Maybe (and I'm getting a little off subject here) it's because the person who Dean has always loved the most is Sam. And since that is in no way sexual, he hasn't no trouble disconnecting the two. Most boys like to pretend they don't have deep feelings for others until puppy love/puberty hits. But he had to be nurturing and loving (not in a romantic/sexual way) when he was very young. He'd already lost his mom and his dad was under constant threat, so I think he learned as a child to accept that he cared deeply for people, especially Sam.
So by the time puberty hit, he didn't need to drown in hormones to admit he had cared about people. And didn't necessarily connect the two, like our society has a tendency to do. And that has carried over to his other male relationships. Bobby, Cas, Benny. I believe he loved them all but has no sexual desire for any of them.
I've had very little sleep in the last very few days, so this might make absolutely no sense. I already noticed tons of typos from earlier posts, though admittedly that happens regardless of how much sleep I've had.
I do agree with you about the way SPN handles sex, but nobody's suggesting that would change. As I said, I think a few brief moments would be all that's necessary to address the issue, not some big discussion about sexual preference (yes, that would be horribly out of place). I'm talking: Dean hooks up with a guy during a subplot not unlike past ones, Sam notices, and they have a two-minute pow-wow after a hunt ["has this ever happened to you before?"/reluct ant answer/insert some brotherly banter here/"you know I'm always here for you, right?"/"can we not?"(pause)"I know."] Aaaand that's a wrap. Hell, it's not just establishing Dean's identity, it's a character moment. A bonding moment. A thematic moment (trust, vulnerability, self-exploratio n). It could even tie into the episode plot somehow. It's not as though SPN never makes time for personal subplots beyond MotW/brothers stuff, and subplots shouldn't feel isolated from or intrusive in the narrative anyway.
Although I do agree the majority probably don't see it this way, I'm not sure you're giving the viewers enough credit, especially when it comes to hindsight. I don't think viewers would need Dean to get up on a soapbox and wax poetical about his identity in order to buy it! And in any case, a potential romance could just command the same screentime as other recurring relationships, a la Bobby, the Roadhouse crew, Lisa, Ruby, etc. No more, no less.
So my point is, where's the distraction? How would that hurt the storyline? IMO, unconventional subplots don't hurt a story - clumsy writing hurts a story (see: Sam and Amelia).
And believe me, I get that the writers tease; that's what I see for 90% of what people tend to cite as meaningful subtext, and the phenomenon is controversial even among fangirls. But the time and attention to detail put into scenes like 8x13 makes me pull a serious double-take. That much effort just to screw with a particular subset of fans? It went deeper than I expected, and I wasn't expecting anything to begin with!
I probably should have clarified that I'm not convinced this will actually happen. I just think this season has been weirdly provocative on the issue, and the idea is neither groundless nor... undesirable? Distasteful? Can't think of the perfect word right now. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to elaborate on your position!
I just don't think there is anyway to do this, this late in the game without feeling like it is coming out of left field for most viewers.
I just find it curious that two of my non-fandom straight male friends suggested that Dean might be equal opportunities kind of guy (unprompted, mind you), and I asked the third one about his opinion, and he said he wouldn't be surprised, but he doesn't care either way. I'm just saying that it wouldn't come out of nowhere for them, yet they have no idea about any of those moments people tend to overanalyze (aside from the Aaron thing, but that's just because it's the most recent).
I agree with you on one point, though -- they are being way too subtle. In a way I kind of like it, it doesn't detract from the storyline, yet it adds layers to Dean's character, BUT if they're going to out him some time down the line, they need to ramp up the hints (and I feel like the Aaron thing was the first time it they were really unsubtle about it?).
Just an example of how subtle they really can go -- Dean in 'Southern Comfort', he's referencing a gay bar when asked about purgatory, "No, the one in Miami."
Also, it's interesting that you should mention Tara & Willow, because our current showrunner Ben Edlund used to work with Joss Whedon and actually referenced him as a major influence in the way he constructs his story and especially character arcs (and we all know how fond Joss Whedon is of meaningful subtext.)
Also, I was corrected on this point the other day: Edlund is a producer/writer , but not considered a "showrunner" (that would be Carver and Singer). Although apparently he's close to Carver, who made the roadmap through a possible S10, for what that's worth.
Personally I believe that Dean is 100% straight. I've never seen anything that suggests to me that he is gay. It is my opinion that the writers enjoy putting him in these awkward situations for the comedy it provides and, yeah, I agree, I think they are also just gently teasing the fans.
Honestly, I've never seen the "eye sex" btw him and Castiel or anything else. None of Dean's interactions w/Castiel or Benny for that matter come off as romantic to me. Much of this is subjective.
In my experience, when I realized I was pansexual (very very similar to bisexuality) It took me about 2-3 weeks or so. I'm not saying everyone's the same, and with Dean's upbringing, he's probably going to take more time than most. But we haven't really seen Dean with any women, at least not in canon practically all season, and with Dean being the womanizer he is, that's quite unusual.
And then the writers suddenly threw in a scene where he's not only posing with the name of a bisexual man, but is being hit on by a man and isn't outright rejecting him. If that isn't hinting at something then I must be reading way too far into this. I even have friends who are just casual watchers who were questioning what was going on in that scene.
To me, I think this whole "finding himself" thing is very believable. It seems realistic, and makes sense. I wouldn't be surprised if they outed Dean as bisexual in one episode and left it at that. I certainly wouldn't have any problems with it.
I have 2 questions, though, out of curiosity --
I haven't seen all SPN shows and I haven't read the published John's Journal, so what's the source for this:
add on info from The Journal stating John took pride in Dean's womanising, violence, obedience, and dishonesty
AND, this:
Sorry but when a guy completely ignores two beautiful, flashily-dresse d women passing by in favour of openly staring at a man's uniformed ass, that should tell you something right there; and that's only one example of many
Thank you i n advance.
You could argue he's admiring the uniform, but then why have the ladies there at all? The viewer is certainly drawn to look at them first, so they're almost like a diversion from who Dean is looking at. Just food for thought.
The second is from 7.12 "Time After Time" at 16:25-16:29. It happens quickly so it's easy to miss.
As far as the video, obviously you see him checking out the soldier but I see him looking around and being excited by all he was seeing including an old soldiers uniform. He was even wearing his little boy happy face and pointed his finger like 'look'. It was definitely not his how you doin' face, IMO.
For the soldier, I guess we'll have to disagree. To me, it suspiciously looks like a full-on cat call, especially when you consider the context of the scene -- he doesn't even notice a woman in a vivid, bright red dress in favor of checking out the soldier and his tight ass. (Obviously, your interpretation carries just as much weight as ours. I guess the scene could truly be significant only in hindsight.)
Yeah, the soldier thing I just don't see us agreeing on. It seemed pretty obvious to me what he was doing but you obviously saw it differently. The whole thing took just a few seconds. Dean sees women in red dress all the time (to a guy, a dress is a dress is a dress) but a cool military uniform, almost all guys think they're cool. He was like a kid looking at all the cool stuff at Disneyland not looking for a hookup, IMO.
And I can't see how the journal should indicate anything about John's view on Dean's sexuality either. I know many guys who had their father congratulate them on being "a ladies' man", not because it's necessarily means they're heterosexuals.
By the way, agree with everything you said, and I believe John Winchester was in some respects an awful father.
That's not to say I'm against Dean being outed as bi, just that I haven't seen enough evidence to convince me if they did.
I do believe Dean is quite open-minded, accepting of people's preferences and not entirely adverse to experimentation , but for my part, that his primary sexual oreintation is towards being straight.
Yes, I've noticed that majority of you who notice it are gay (or should I say having very low bisexuality level) because you've been in that situation. (Sorry, I learn not to put sexuality orientation in neat little boxes as I believe that all of us has bisexuality inside. The different is the level)
But I'm fairly low on bisexuality too and have a tendency to favor the sex opposite as me. Or you can say straight but I've learned not to use that word too.
I can understand the sign and hints that you guys mention about, (especially on Tom's comments) I get them. And that doesn't bother me at all. I will still love Dean if the progression of his character is to admit to himself that, yes, he enjoy both sex as company and also as sexual interest.
If The writers have plan to do it then I hope they write it good but if not and they are all just written for jokes, I hope they stop. It's mocking.
hell his whole "everything is always his fault " attitude is narcissistic. it's not just about the good things with dean. everyone is his responsibility. it's up to him to save the world...he has a bit of a messiah complex. how many times has he said that it's up to him and him alone to save the world. if he didn't do it, who would. how many times has dean used the term "it's on me"? dean has a tendency to blame himself for everything that goes wrong too. i mean i think his mom dying and his dad's influence had alot to do with this, don't get me wrong. a lot of responsibility was laid at his feet as a child..this mentality seems to me to have been inevitable.
but this complex of dean's, i believe that's where his bromances tie in. let me explain this better, at least how i see it.
dean has abandonment issues as well, we know that. there have been times that if sam doesn't do what dean wants him to do, dean labels sam a deserter....for instance going to college. sam was simply doing what practically every other kid his age in the world does...going to school. but dean took it as a personal attack against him. sam was abandoning dean. that simply wasn't the case. sam, for the first time, being of age, just wanted to live his life the way he wanted to live it, not by the way his father or dean dictated he should live it.
in scarecrow, dean told sam he was selfish because sam wanted to find his dad. dean didn't understand what jess's death did to sam. but if sam doesn't do what dean says, dean labels him selfish and a deserter. it's pattern.
going with ruby at the end of s4...dean told sam if he walked out that door don't come back. dean saw sam leaving as abandoning dean. he didn't see it for what it was. sam was going after lilith. he didn't kill ruby because he needed her. he wasn't choosing ruby over dean. imo that sam believed he would most likely die in his battle with lilith, but he didn't care. he was driven. dean never really understood, because of his low self esteem, how his death really negatively affected his brother. dean thought sam would be ok if he died, but as we've seen in mystery spot and in all of s4, sam was never ok without dean.
even now in s8, dean from his own perspective thinks sam abandoned him in purgatory. he totally didn't hear sam when sam told him he thought he was dead. no, dean asked if there was a girl. what an odd thing to ask? he didn't ask why sam would think that? he asked if there was a girl...there was and then there wasn't ...but dean took that to mean, sam left dean in purgatory to play house with some chick. that is not the way it happened. not at all. but dean doesn't see that. his low self esteem would rather have him believing sam would leave him behind knowingly then to honestly believe that his brother died and the only thing he could try to do was accept it.
as we saw with sam, he didn't handle dean's death well at all. the debacle that was amelia showed us that. he ran..he didn't deal.
but dean hasn't once this season asked sam what happened that night at the lab...dean is still looking at things from his own pov, which as we learned from both cas and henry, isn't necessarily the correct pov. this goes back to his narcississtic tendencies. dean seeing things the way he wants to see them, not as they really are.
just like he's doing with benny. benny helped dean sure. but why? out of the goodness of his vampire heart? do you honestly think that benny, would not have been more than happy to drink dean dry, a hunter no less, if he hadn't been told about dean being the human loophole and benny's ticket out of purgatory? sure benny kept dean alive. sure benny gained his trust....benny needed dean to get him out of purgatory...and guess what folks, that's what dean did.
since benny has been out, he's killed vamps and a hunter. he still drinks human blood, meant for sick and dying people. i mean, why doesn't benny drink cattle blood if he is so reformed. why does benny hang out at parks when he's hungry for blood? how come humans didn't start getting killed in citizen fang until benny found out about martin from dean? the most important question...if benny is the cat's meow, why does dean continue to keep secrets from sam about benny? what's the big deal?
dean's bromance with benny is a false one, i agree with the post above. it stems from dean's abandonment issues and his inability to be alone for any length of time. just look at his one night stands for instance. the fact that he's known for them i mean...when sam was at school, i have no doubt dean was with alot of women. at least those times when he wasn't with his dad...just speculating there of course.
imo, dean broke in purgatory. he couldn't face being alone and benny took advantage of dean. dean never even questioned benny about how he knew about the portal out, who they were. even now out of purgatory, dean still doesn't ask those questions of benny. i believe without a shadow of a doubt that dean is lying to himself about benny because he can't admit to the fact that he broke in purgatory and needed someone...anyone.
i think dean not telling sam about benny isn't about keeping benny alive, it's because he doesn't want sam to ask questions. i find it quite telling that dean still isn't talking about benny with sam. do you wonder why that is? i believe it's because if sam finds out that benny was told about the portal, that dean put benny inside him to get him out, then sam is going to flat out tell dean that benny used him to get out of purgatory....th at benny is probably working for someone,, someone who told him about dean in the first place....and in all honesty, i don't think dean is ready to hear these truths.
all that crap about benny not letting dean down, that was dean not only trying to keep sam at an emotional distance, but it was dean trying to convince himself that this was actually the case. when down deep, i know that dean knows it's not true.
as with the siren, sam was keeping ruby a secret and dean found out, so he sought out someone who fit's dean's ideal of the perfect little brother. sam basically without flaws.
i think it's been pretty much the same pattern when it comes to dean. he seems to be fine when sam is doing what dean wants him to do, but when sam goes off on his own, or is honest with dean and tries to tell him that when the gates of hell are closed he doesn't want to hunt anymore, then dean gets resentful of sam. but more than that, he sees sam as wanting to abandon dean, instead of seeing sam as simply wanting to have a part in making a decision in what he does with his own life, instead of being told what he should be doing. that's why i think sam in turn was resentful of dean. it's a vicious cycle.
but i think that's starting to change. i think in the last few episodes, dean has been seeing things differently. it said alot that he was willing to let sam leave with amelia, even though i'm sure he didn't want him to.
i think dean after hearing the truth from both cas and now henry, may be recognizing that he doesn't know what it was like for sam when he was gone. he really has no idea of how sam ended up hitting a dog, hell none of us do. i got a sense from dean that he may be realizing that his pov isn't necessarily correct concerning sam either.
i know they haven't talked yet, but i really feel that it's coming. my hope is that show will finally let us and dean hear sam's pov concerning the first half of the season.
i digress a bit though. what i'm trying to allude to is that i don't think dean is gay. i actually find it amusing how uncomfortable he gets whenever he's presumed to be gay...especiall y the moment with the chief...back in caiadb.
i do think that dean's extreme relationships with other guys, bobby, cas, even to an extent benny, has to do with his abandonment issues and his narcissistic tendencies more than any sexual preference.
jmo of course.
Someone with low self-esteem can also be hypersensitive, which Dean is regarding acceptance/reje ction by his family, and mainly Sam:
Hypersensitivity
Overly sensitive, those with low self esteem frequently get their feelings hurt, are easily offended, are quick to become angry or defensive, and are easily provoked. They tend to be overly self-focused and can appear insensitive to the feelings of others or can inaccur ately look as though they are narcissistic. Basically they are constantly looking for signs that others are rejecting or disapproving of them and then conclude this is happening even when it is not.
Someone who has low self-esteem views himself as inadequate and unlovable (as opposed to a narcissist who believes he is far above everyone else and they love them self too much). People with low self-esteem tend to be overly critical of themselves and of others, they can be overly rigid in their beliefs, and tend to overreact to situations and be quick to anger.
Other signs of low self-esteem are extreme neediness, hyper vigilance, poor relationship and social skills, tendency to mask feelings, and... promiscuity.
Dean wears a mask that may appear he has great confidence and arrogance, but he's simply trying to mask his extreme fear of abandonment, neediness, self-doubt, and low self-esteem. But Dean is getting better, IMO.
Quote:I really hope they do this too Nappi185 and soooon
IMO for the brothers to grow together, Sam needs to understand Dean from a new perspective too. It cannot just be Dean that needs to understand Sam. Hope you understand where I am coming from
i love both boys. but this thread is about dean's supposed sexual preferences, so i wrote down what i felt that was about.
in no way am i insinuating that sam is flawless, well he's flawless, but not without flaws if you get my meaning
as a matter of fact, i believe both boys recognize and accept the flaws in ea. other, but i'm not sure if they recognize those flaws in themselves. i think they are starting to.
one of the biggest flaws that they both have in common is their lack of communication. it's that lack of communication that results in ea. being resentful of ea. other at times.
i think that will be changing as well.
i also forgot to mention, that loyalty and family also play a role in what i consider to be dean's bromances..even though sometimes, as in the case with benny, he mistakes loyalty for manipulation. but that's just me of course.
Also, some of you are way off the mark when you say slash shipping and Dean/Cas are "porn for girls", you really have no idea what this relationship means to a lot of smart, eloquent, passionate fans.
And to be honest, I will never understand why people think that Dean and Cas becoming a couple equates Sam becoming a background character. In what universe would that happen?
The best thing of SPN is Team Free Will.
I do not think that Dean is gay. Throughout the past seasons Dean has shown a keen interest in women and yes I am aware that there are cases of gay men overcompensatin g like this and admit that it is a possibility, but I do not think that the creators of SPN would go as far and totally reverse this aspect of Dean’s character. On the other hand, the hints that Dean’s sexuality might be less rigidly hetero than he and the viewers might want to believe have certainly increased this season, especially in regard of his latest interaction with Aaron.
I can understand people that would love to see Dean outed as bisexual just as well as the ones that think it’s a bad / farfetched idea, mostly because I am not sure if I would want them to go through with that. Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem with Dean being bi or gay and I think it would do no harm to his character at all, but I am afraid what a decision like this might do to the show. The fandom is prone to tearing itself apart as it is and I understand that the writers would like to keep as many fans as possible content, just for the sake of the shows survival. While I would love to live in a world where outing a cool macho main character as bi is A-okay with everyone, I am not sure if SPN could survive that. For this reason I would be stunned out of my mind if the writing choices Edlund & Co have made this season really lead up to Dean outing himself, because that would be a move far beyond brave. Bravery I am not sure I’d be able to display if I was in their position.
Still, it would be a marvellous, jaw-dropping decision and probably do a lot for the LGBTQ community, but making it work in SPN would also require very careful writing to not let the show descent into the above mentioned soap opera (which I would hate to see happen). I am sure they could pull it off, but I doubt they will.
Now it would be great if some of the talk from boards like this got networks, even if it is cable, to create a completely bad-ass bi or gay character (hot would be good too). Not have it be a big thing for the character, just a part of him. I haven't really seen anything like that, except for maybe Jack Harkness but that was the BBC.
Maybe there have been others on show I don't watch but I haven't heard of one. I don't watch much regular dramas though, I did watch House. And I liked 13 but I wouldn't call her badass. Same thing with Inara on Firefly. Keith was on Six Feet Under was hot as hell (and he David had the functional relationship on that show-though that was a pretty low bar) supposed to be really tough , but since it played out a having anger management issues not exactly what I was going for.
And by tough, I mean he would stand up for himself and not take crap from anyone.
UGH. Hate that SOOOO much.
Now even though I completely disagree with the people who see a bisexual storyline there. I can at least respect where they are coming from. But I hope to hell the writers never adopt this cynical attitude (and I seriously doubt they will). The shows that do this lose viewers -fast. This show has a extremely avid fan base and its getting bigger 8 years in. Are you playing devil's advocate? or being snide? Because I have a hard time believing that a fan of this show would so casually dismissive of what so many of us love.
I agree with you Kelly, on not being the fan of this cynical attitude regarding the show and ratings. If they're really set on 'Dean is bi' storyline, then I'd like them to use s8 & 9 to setting it up properly, without much concern for the ratings, I'd love it for them to do it justice. And by that, I totally support the diametrically different approach than Glee, because people aren't defined by their sexuality. Television desperately needs more characters like Charlie Bradbury & Dean Winchester. The story is infinitely more powerful when told through subversion of classic cliches, much more than when the writers are downright spelling it out for us.
I just can't see a point to going this way.
It doesn't change the basics of the show, just like the sex and romance in the past 7 seasons haven't, but it could be beneficial to Dean as a character (he could learn to accept and embrace all of himself, without shame or fear of failing his father) and to a lot of people who would have a brave, loyal, kickass, funny and fully fleshed out bisexual character to look up to. And that's the point, Dean would still be Dean, not a destryed character. It could benefit the show and society and I don't think it would be about Dean deciding to change his sexuality, more like acknowledging something that has always been there under the surface.
It would benefit the show by continuing Dean on his journey of comfort with himself, as also seen in his embracing of his enjoyment of LARPing. You say yourself it would be growth for Dean -- is that not reason enough to do it? What you say only points out that it would only help the growth of the show and not hurt it, since it wouldn't change the basics of the show.
I can also accept the current status quo.
What I hope is that if the writers do plan Dean to admit that he's fairly high on the bisexuality scale then they should write it good and fluently and I won't mind. I will not love Dean less.
But, if they don't plan to do it and just making jokes left and right, it's not funny. It's cruel and mocking. Straight people maybe laugh at it but I don't think it's funny in the long run. I will feel offended. I'm fairly low on bisexuality and have no tendency to kiss someone with the same sex as me but I will feel offended regardless.
That's all.
To be clear though, I have no problem with Dean coming out as bisexual...as long as the writers handle it correctly.
If they were do do this, I feel I would need a reason. Now, I'm not saying a scene of Dean trying to articulate why he's bi (because people just are who they are), but more that I would need to know that this is something they'd been planning or have known about the character for some time, and not something introduced simply because they thought it would be a good vehicle to get Dean to a particular destination. In other words, that they weren't just doing it for shock value or fan service.
I understand what you mean about not intending harm but harming anyway, but I myself don't take a lot of this too seriously and I feel like that's what the writers intend. This show is very irreverent by nature, and that's part of it's appeal to me. As long as they're not widespread offending people, I'm ok, and I think despite themselves they have remained pretty respectful.
(Just for the record, I think they're approaching this issue quite seriously this season, it doesn't feel like a joke at all, and part of me is very hopeful and inclined to trust the writers.)
I do believe though, that these writers are capable of doing a storyline like this justice.
If the writers do it justice, the storyline could truly be fantastic. We'll just have to wait and see.
Tom's writing is very complete and his thought processes are impressive. I can't think and write like that and I find his writing/him intimidating! But I feel the examples used in his posts above are still "-gay or straight until said differently- is in the eye of the beholder." So until show comes out (ha pun intended) and actually says so, I'm seeing Dean as straight.
No disrepect intended.
Has it ever been shown he is attracted to the male sex? We've only seen him flirt with females, and with great enjoyment I must say.
We've seen his dreams - both his real dreams and djinn dreams. His djinn dream gave him a lovely girlfriend who was a nurse and an ideal partner. She loved him dearly.
He dreamed of Lisa and him having a picnic in 'Dream a Little Dream'. He dreamed of Lisa again in 'The Third Man' and having sex with her. In the 'Song Remains the Same' he dreamt, and practically drooled, at sexy stripper dancers Devil and Angel, until interrupted by Anna. ("Strippers, Sammy, Strippers! We've finally got a case with strippers!")
We've known (but not seen) his trois menages (with girls) in 'Provenance' and 'The Magnificent Seven'.
Why can't guys have friends and not be accused of being gay? (not that there's anything wrong with that!)
If you care about the welfare of your friends, are you gay?
Come on! He cares about Benny as they bonded in their fight for life in Purgatory! Is he supposed to not care now?
That bit with Cas's trench coat, I think, was a mistake for the writers to suppose he'd cart it around in every single car he heisted. In fact, we saw him heist a car and he never moved anything into it from the older one, so how did that coat get there? If he kept it in the Impala, that would be believable. He cares about Cas too. Cas brought him out of hell. Anybody would care! And Cas became what seems to have been his first friend outside of his brother and his surrogate father. Bless him he needs some friends who don't die on him!
Dean gets non-plussed when strangers assume he and his brother are a couple. He doesn't seem to understand why that is. See 'Bugs', 'Playthings' and a couple of others. He never gets really angry, just seems confused about why that is.
The funny bits written in that vein are just that. Comical moments to lighten the mood a bit. 'The Chief' for instance.
And I do love those funny bits. (Thanks Ben & guys)
I don't understand why some fans crave Dean to be Bi or Gay. I guess they are the ones who like slash. I've even read some of it myself and some do have a weird appeal I can't define. But it's not something I enjoy reading or believing it to be heading towards that in the series. I believe 99% that that will NEVER be canon! I certainly hope not.
So to conclude, my answer to the question is "DEFINITELY NO!!!"
Other people have listed the reasons why they think Dean might be bi and I agree with them, I guess we all have our opinions and mine is "definitely yes!".
It's funny because you really same like you genuinely fear that Dean might be bi or gay. You don't even care for his happiness, just your own selfish delusions so that you can be comfortable.
And that scene pretty much proves my earlier point. There was ZERO evidence that that coat had meaning between Cas and Dean-the coat is mentioned a lot in ff but never in any special regard by Dean OR CAS on the show, until Cas disappeared and that was the only remaining piece of his friend he had left. Picking up the coat made perfect sense. Storing in the Impala would make sense. Dragging that coat from car to car made no sense. Sera Gamble worst moment on the show IMO.
Hell even if he was in love with Cas why would he have dragged the mangy old coat around with him. He cherished it but didn't bother to air it out, so he just let it mildew and rot and pulled it from one car to another?
And he gave it back to him like it was something special, but I don't remember Cas EVER focusing one time on what he was wearing. I was always under the impression he was above all that and that is why he continued to wear the same thing because it didn't matter. And Dean didn't mention it ever either-it was only ever a thing to some of the fans and it was fan service to give it back in that way.
Now if it had been when the went to pick up the Impala I probably would have liked it because Dean was trying to show he was trying to forgive him in that ep, so pulling the coat out of the trunk, showing he'd kept it despite what Cas had done, I would have loved that and I'm not a Destiel shipper. And the coat could have taken on meaning at that point, in similar way the amulet did have meaning within the show (though not as much though ha). But they way she did it was forced and ridiculous.
The writers can't just say something has meaning without, showing why it has meaning. Especially if it had no meaning previously. So not earned. Not good storytelling.
And this is my fear with a bisexual line it would either be half-assed and be bad. Or it would be so involved it would detract from the rest of the storylines.
It was not all about Cas.
"Hey. I was there. I was depressed, Dean, because he was gone. I was a wreck, an emotional shell, a drunk. I was suicidal."
His grief over losing Cas was notably different and I think even he couldn't pinpoint why, so he hid himself behind a beer bottle and several layers of repression, descending slowly into heavy depression.
Things started piling up, yeah, but I think Cas jump-started it all, with betrayal & loss and his mixed feelings over both.
Ever since season five, the trenchcoat is an important piece of Castiel's physical identity. You say it yourself: Cas doesn't pay attention to what he's wearing because he doesn't need to. As an angel his clothes are mojo'd clean if they get dirty and he clearly does not have a sense of fashion. Therefore the coat (as well as the suit and tie) become very much apart of who Castiel is.
To my memory Cas is only seen three times not wearing the coat, and in all three cases he is not even Castiel anymore (save one). In 4x20, when he is only Jimmy Novak. In 7x17 when he is Emmanuel. And in 5x04 when Dean sees future!Cas (and, don't forget, Dean's very second comment to Cas is asking him not to change).
Sam, Dean, and Bobby have all made comments in the show about Cas that include the trenchcoat as apart of his identity ("His name is Castiel. He wears a trenchoat." Sam, 5x11; "Without your powers, you're basically just a baby in a trenchcoat." Dean, 6x19; "Trenchcoat on a tortilla?" Bobby, 7x01). I'm not trying to say that the trenchcoat holds significance because, for example, Dean bought it for him, or whatever. I'm saying it holds significance because it is quintessential Castiel. Because without the coat, Cas is is simply not Cas, evidenced by the fact that we only see him three times without it.
There's probably a lot more I can say about why Dean returning the coat is far more significant than the act of keeping it, but that's not the point of this comment.
I'm not interested in getting into the specifics of "is he or isn't he" because, as I said, there are many more talented writers on this thread already to speak to my thoughts on the matter, I only wanted to point out that the trenchcoat IS significant, whether Dean OR Cas realizes it. There is a reason it has become a symbol for who Castiel is (I type all this while wearing my t-shirt, designed to look like Cas's coat, suit jacket, and tie).
(And I am very, very sorry if this is non-sensical and doesn't speak to your criticism that the coat isn't important to the characters themselves; it's a bit late where I am and I tend to ramble when tired.)
I'm not going to explain this well probably, but comparing it the amulet. Say in PoNR, Cas had taken off the trenchcoat and said he was giving up on Dean. I think Dean would have just been confused. Whereas Dean didn't need to say anything for it to have meaning when he dropped the amulet in the trash. Sam knew exactly what that meant. The amulet had established meaning on the show, but the coat didn't.
To me, this conversation would be the equivalent of me insisting that Dean is Black or that he should have a Black girlfriend because Cassie was his first love... But again, I Don't watch the show because of his/their romantic relationships. It's an excellent show and I don't they have/need to make statements for any community; Gay, Black or otherwise. Why is it such a big deal and how is the character being bi or gay gonna help your life or the show? Obviously they've done something right because the show has been renewed for a 9th season and apparently the fan fic sites are growing. I am sure if the writers were to "out" Dean (in some never gonna be seen, alternate universe), fans will complain that it either wasn't enough or it wasn't with the right person. There would be a ton of angry tweets and/or conversations like this that do nothing to improve or enhance the show or unites the fans.
Dean and Cas are really good friends. Dean cares about whether Cas lives or dies. Why does that mean Dean's really gay/bi and doesn't want to admit it? That doesn't make sense to me. Maybe he just cares about his buddy.
Quote:I don't either. And I don't want to offend anyone, but it feels like people are searching for any thing to point to Dean being gay/bisexual. For instance, the camera panning to Dean's face when Sam mentions Henry coming out of the closet?!?!?! That's really reaching, IMO.
Having a great character like Charlie doesn't negate the subtext that I've seen around Dean. Wanting his character to complete a journey that I see he could very easily take doesn't mean that I don't also enjoy having characters who don't need to take that journey. I can want both things.
I'm not opposed to gay characters. I just don't think Dean is in any way, shape, or form gay or bisexual. Plus, I agree with those who feel such a storyline has no place on this show. The romances are barely tolerable. A "coming out" story would be just as bad, IMO.
Quote:You actively hope for Dean to be straight -- why? If you consider your reasons, it may help you understand why people would like him to come out as bisexual.
Representation in media is something that studies show helps create tolerance in real life. It's natural for people to want representation in the media that people watch, since we'd like people to be less bigoted in real life.
Also, there is a huge difference between seeing Dean as straight and actively wanting him to be -- what would Dean coming out as bisexual hurt? He would still be exactly the same person, only he would be open about being attracted to guys and might kiss some on the show. He would still be a BAMF, still be a great hunter, still be attracted to women, still be a dedicated brother. None of his core characteristics would be even slightly affected.
That said, I truly agree and support the media representation you are talking about, but not at the expense of radically changing a character we all know for 8 seasons. If the writers do it for this reason, in my opinion, it would be a huge mistake. Dean being a kind of a stereotype macho, but still comfortable around gay men and women (Charlie), judgment free, do the trick and stays true to the character.
Yes, we need more shows with strong, bad ass, gay, bi etc. characters. I think the same with black, latino, asian, even women. Please, write them as real people, not stereotypes. But the writes will have to build ones from scratch, not suddenly turning a well known one.
Like I said, I feel like the writers are building up to something. You don't. That's a difference in interpretation of what's on-screen. We both have our viewpoints which are backed up by what we've seen in the show. And it's fine to have different interpretations of subtext; happens all the time.
But a character coming out as bisexual after years of presenting as straight is not the same thing as 'suddenly' turning, which is not and never has been what I've been advocating for. Please stop misrepresenting my position, which I've tried to be very clear on.
Once again, impressive writing Tom.
i don't think dean is gay or bi. i always found him to be a bit homophobic at the beginning and then just plain uncomfortable as time went on. he seems to enjoy girl on girl action. but he was obviously very uncomfortable in tgwtdadt when he had to help charlie hit on the guy. he looked like he wanted to jump out of his skin. while i believe dean is tolerant of others and accepts it more now than in the beginning of the series, he still is obviously very uncomfortable when getting hit on or being presumed gay.
i never thought the trenchcoat thing had anything to do with any sort of bromance. seemed to me that the coat was kept by dean for the sole purpose of getting cas back in the game in the born again identity.
dean's friendship with cas made keeping the coat realistic...but the actual purpose of the coat seemed to reveal itself in tbai when dean needed it to help save sam...
in the end, it was all about saving sam.
jmo, of course.
isn't a phobia a fear....so homophobic is the fear of same sex relationships.. ..i didn' t use the word dislike at all. i never said dean disliked gay people. i never thought dean disliked gay people either. but it seems to me that he has this fear of being presumed gay. it was very apparent in playthings when his immediate response to susan was that they were brothers, followed with the question of why she thought he seemed the type. it seems to genuinely bother him.
now as time has gone on, and he's been hit on more often, tricked into meeting a gay guy, assumed gay on more than one occasion and has met up with gay people in trg and tgwtdadt, i think dean is starting loosen up a bit. he's not as freaked as he was in the beginning, but as shown in the scene with aaron, he still is quite uncomfortable with the subj. and it still freaks him out when people assume he's gay.
personally, i have never seen any subtext in this show to indicate that dean is anything but heterosexual. as i've stated in my post above, i think dean's intense relationships have more to do with his abandonment/ narcissistic tendencies than they have to do with sexual preference.
jmo of course.
And I don't see him as narcissistic really at all. Okay maybe at moments. But he has always been pretty hard on himself too.
I don't agree that Dean has EVER "freaked out" at appearing gay. He has at times wondered why people think that, i.e. Playthings. But he just shrugged it off.
And with Aaron, I didn't think he was uncomfortable as much as he was confused at first because he thought Aaron knew something about the dead Professor, and then he became flustered and shy about getting hit on. He didn't tell Aaron he wasn't gay, he just said he was conducting a federal investigation. But there was no "freak out."
Dean isn't homophobic, and he isn't a narcissist.
JMO of course!
And Jensen and the director of the episode explicitly compared what Dean did with the coat to the way that a "widow's flag" is folded.
i think it's all about the laugh. it's the same reason i think they dress up dean instead of sam. it's funnier when dean dresses up because he's the more macho of the two. so to see him in lederhosen or chain mail, or retro hugger gym shorts....that' s funny.
Please, please don't make fun on someone's sexuality.
I will hate it if the writers only think of it as a gag/joke. Probably it's funny for straight people, but even for me who are fairly low on bisexuality bar (you can say that I'm straight) I feel offended.
Please don't make joke on someone's sexuality without any plan to do something about it.
When I was in the closet, being around gay men made me so uncomfortable because I was afraid I would be outed by them somehow or that they would know. Watch any television series that has a gay character's coming out story arc and you will see that guys in the closet are very uncomfortable around gay men. When you're in the closet you don't think these guys lie and say things like "Sorry i don't swing that way." ? A perfect example would be Teddy in 90210. This is only ONE example of many by the way.
Teddy is a macho straight guy achetype. In seasons 1 and 2, you would never even guessed he was gay. He was dating women and everything. Exactly like Dean. In season 3, he had his coming out arc as a gay character and was uncomfortable around gay guys, exactly like Dean. He also said he wasn't gay. PEOPLE LIE WHEN THEY'RE IN THE CLOSET. It took a while for him to accept that it was okay and be comfortable about it. Dean is literally on that same exact journey. It's so blatant.
Like.. ??????????? SUCH IGNORANCE. Please stop posting such stupidity like OH DEAN CAN'T BE GAY HE ONLY EVER LIKED WOMEN ETC
Hello we're talking about bisexuality?
It takes time to accept what you are inside and Dean has literally been on that journey since S2. Have you ever even been in a queer man/woman's shoes? Or watched a show that has lgbt characters coming out? It's so naive to take what Dean says about his sexuality literally when he lies every single day.
The writers certainly seem to be going in that direction, but some people are straight and don't see it. They're making progress by jumping off the subtext track, but it's going to take quite a few more scenes and some blatant dialogue to convince the viewers that Dean's bi, and then there will always be those that are absolutely convinced that Dean is still straight. Hell, there could be a sex scene between Dean and another man and people would still sit there and scream that he's straight.
I like the way his self-discovery is going, but some people don't like it and it's always going to be that way.
I don't have problem if Dean is bi or not. Or in status quo just like now till the end. I won't averse him as bi. But I don't like it if the writer only making a joke on it.
Playing dress up with Dean is cute but mocking his sexuality is not.
I would much rather the writers kept taking sexuality in their stride, as part of the natural way people roll, rather than turning into some behemoth that has to be exposed as the secret and deadly serious reason behind everything.
No matter what our sexual orientation is the way we view life is often influenced by our own experience in life. Quite several people on this board has stated that they are gay but I find that some of them has varied opinion. Some even mentioned to have been in the same situation as Dean.
It's okay if you don't think that it's not mocking. But some did. Why? probably because we all have different experience in life that shape us and they way of our thinking.
What I mean is the writers intention in all of this teasing. If they have plan behind it to go somewhere that's fine, I can go along and see what happen.
But if they do it just to say "Hehehe... just kidding folks. We're playing around" I will think it's cruel.
I have some male friend who is soft spoken and has mannerism almost like a girl. The way he spoke and walk and the way he held himself is very soft. But he's not gay. He confirms that he's not (I'm not sure if he hid it or not and I don't have the capacity to make any judgment on that) and very uncomfortable when other friends tease him for his softness.
He often said, "Please don't tease me like that. I'm not gay. It makes me uncomfortable."
I treat him just the way he is. He said he's not gay and I don't question him. It's not my right. I don't tease him because it hurts his feeling. He is what he is and wants to be accepted as what he is.
What my other friends do to him is cruel to me. I know that they probably just to do it for laugh and with no ill feeling but for my male friend it's offending and making him uncomfortable. Some even say, "Then don't act like that. Be more macho as a man." Really? Do they have the right to change the way he behaves?
Not everyone is comfortable with teasing. I will not pretend to know about LGBT community but I will quote Tom's words. Quote:I can get with what Tom said.
Not that I want Dean to be bi. I don't care if Dean is bi or not. It will not lessen my love for him as a fan of the show. If they plan to go somewhere with all these jokes, go ahead. I expect good writing, that's all. But if not and it's only but a gag, joke, laugh, humor, please stop and don't hint it anymore. Make other jokes.
What do you think if my other friends decide to make a joke and "hit" my male friend with sexual innuendo? Just for joke? He'll be sad and his self esteem will be even lower. I think it's mocking and cruel.
I'm sorry I don't mean to fight and Nothing mean spirited in what I say here.
Quote:But the fans who think and perhaps hopes that Dean is bi/gay... some of them are bi or gay. Some of them have been in Dean's position, that's why they feel the way they are and they see the signs like what they have described in their comments here.
So, intentionally or not, the writers are aiming the jokes TO THEM.
You and me, perhaps never been in their position. And I respect your opinion and understand you. I understand that you don't see it like they do. Because like I said, we have different experiences in life that shape us and influence our way of seeing things.
Some of the above commenter are proofs of that and they are probably just a few that write comment in this website.
Some of them even said that they have been 'in the closet' , 'they reacted just like Dean reacted'. Why? Because they speak from their own experience. What I've said above, I'm just trying to respect them and acknowledge them and their opinion. They are entitled to it because they speak from experience.
Just because we can't see it like they do, please let's not dismiss what they say. Dismissing what they say is dismissing them and their life experience as nothing and perhaps as joke.
I will give example. My male friend that I spoke about above. He'd been teased a lot and the teaser are always say... it's okay, man. nothing mean spirited, no ill meaning. Just joking." But my male friend still hurts.
Some people don't care of teasing but some people gets hurt. Is it my male's friend's fault that he's hurt by the teasing? Because he can't take some no mean-spirited joke? Because he takes the jokes seriously?
Does he not have a right to be treated nice with no joke that may hurt his feeling?
All I'm saying. The reason why I say this is because I remember the situation with my male friend (perhaps it’s not the same) but I acknowledge some of the commenters here (who thinks that Dean is probably bi). I acknowledge and understand their opinion and sentiment.
And I hope that the writers will not too generous in using that kind of jokes. It’s teasing the readers (the readers who think that Dean’s bi, who said that they see the sign) and it’s cruel because some of them are bi or gay.
I don't care if Dean is bi or not. I will not love him less.
I acknowledge that you and some other people don't get hurt and are able to take the innuendo and joke with ease. I'm really happy that you are, really
But Some Don't. Please, please, let's not dismiss those who are hurts. They are human too, they stood equal as all of us and have rights to feel hurts.
Please don't get offended, I don't mean anything bad. We all fans here. Peace
Alice, do you ban Chatolics and Ones from other religion from saying anything and express their opinion on things in this website? About what they think about the Show and what they see and what they feel about the show?
I'm so sad. :(
I'm sorry Ale, I think you're free to express your opinion here about the show but what you say is a tad disrespectful.
And if others take this show too seriously then they don't have right to voice their opinion, their concern, their feeling about the show on this board? Some of them may speak from their experience but their experience and their life doesn't matter much apparently in this board because they should Quote:And not commenting on this board?
Sorry Ale, I misspelled your name please don't get upset because of that.
I think ale was making a rhetorical point that if we all took all aspects of this (or any) show so seriously as it appears we are expected to take this one then there would be banners and protests from all kinds of pressure groups or 'community' representatives outside studios all day every day if the season. I think s/he was suggesting that what may be needed is a bit if perspective. (I apologize if I have misunderstood, ale.)
Kaj1, I’m sorry if I offended you, or anybody else, it was not my intention. I didn’t mean people don’t have the right to be offended or to express it anywhere they want to, including in this site. (please, continue to write your opinion here, I like reading your posts
What I was trying to say, and I agree I didn’t explain myself properly (but now, it’s Sunday and I have a little time off), is that my concern and my wish is for the writers to feel free to write the story they want to, that they understand is the best one, without feeling the need to auto censor themselves too much in order not to offend anyone. As Dean story goes, I believe they should write him without the concern of offending “straight†people if writing him as gay or bi, but ALSO without the concern of offending gay or bi people if writing him as a strictly hetero guy.
That was why I was I brought the Catholic example. While I was watching the show, I never really thought about it because I was into the story and was willing to accept any view the writers brought. But when I introduced the show to my mother, who is Catholic-Cathol ic, she enjoyed it very much and now watches with me, but even so she expressed her amazement the show was even allowed to survive that long, with the take it has on God, Angels and religion. The show took, and still takes, a HUGE risk in offending Catholics and other religions, and I firmly believe anyone should be free to express discontentment with that, but I cannot say I’m not pleased the writers didn’t shy away from the risks. We wouldn’t have crazy, awesome writers as Ben Edlund, and politically correct scripts are not his strength (thank, Chuck! I would be bored out of my mind in no time).
I don’t think the writers write anything, not even the religion part, deliberately in order to offend anyone but, of course, they know they can, and if they do, people should be free to say so. But, as I feel it is not their intent to offend, I say don’t take it personally. Maybe it sounds as an advice, and it’s not my place to give any so I took the risk to offend and I did… Sorry, again, I didn’t mean to disrespect anyone, or to shut anyone up.
I hope I made myself clearer this time. Please, write me if have more questions, I will be pleased to write you back, time allowing!
Although, I don't want to undermine anyone's view either, but I think Kripke only borrowed the names and not the characters' traits, since Sam was named after Sal Paradise from the same book.
I always thought it was because On The Road is a story about a roadtrip across America, and not because of any similarities Sam and Dean have to Sal and Dean.
Two main characters are named Sal and Dean, and even Kripke admitted he named our Sam and Dean after them. Sal Paradise was Kerouac’s alter ego, and Dean Moriarty was named after his friend, Neal Cassady.
So, Dean Moriarty. He is a beloved character, much admired for his carefree attitude and sense of adventure. A fast-talking womanizer and a con-man with classic good looks and tons of charm, with a love for american cars. Dean raced from journey to journey and pulls other people along, always on the move. He grew up with an alcoholic, troubled father for whom he searches on many occasions. His various fixations were drugs, booze, women, and finally the search for his father and constant desire for a family life. In fact, he tried to settle down on many occasions, but his restless spirit always pulled him back on the road.
Sounds familiar? Add monsters and demons, and you’ve got yourself a Dean Winchester. You see, the similarities aren't only in name, but also in his personality and life journey.
What most people don’t know is that Dean Moriarty (and subsequently Neal Cassady) is bisexual.
There are two versions of the book. The one that was published in 1950s is a censored version of Kerouac’s original manuscript. Since homosexuality was nothing short of a crime in the 50s America, Dean’s bisexuality was only ever hinted at, and of course remained in the subtext. What we got was a character who was constantly picking up women and even got himself married two times. If you read the book closely though, you can see that his character was also constantly flirting with men, crushing on men, etc. There’s even one male character (Carlo Marx) in the book with whom Dean had a confusing relationship dynamic which was never directly explained, but mostly looked like jealousy over Dean’s constant man-whoring and picking up girls.
The original manuscript of “On the Road†was finally published in 00s, without censorship, but with all the sex, drugs and real names, including the sexual relationship between Dean and Carlo (which were finally named after their real life counterparts, Neal Cassady and Alan Ginsberg).
If you google Cassady’s life, you’ll see that he and Ginsberg had a sexual relationship which lasted on and off for the next twenty years, as he traveled cross-country with both Kerouac and Ginsberg on multiple occasions.
It’s perfectly possible and plausible to have a womanizer, manly character in a story and also have him be attracted to men on occasion. And not only possible for purposes of the story and only in fiction, but also realistic, since the character of Dean Moriarty almost autobiographica lly follows the life of a real person. In my opinion, it would not be in any way insulting to Dean Winchester’s character to make him ‘suddenly’ attracted to men. Real people like him do exist, and I think it was hinted enough in canon that Dean Winchester isn’t as straight as others would think.
And if I remember correctly Dean in the book was a very destructive character. He used people and rarely thought of the effect of his actions on others- correct me if I wrong, like I said it has been a while. If this is so, than I don't think you can say OUR DEAN is so much like him and for me Dean's protective and caring nature are so much more important to the character than the being secretly bi.
The reference I heard the most was Route 66, but dealing with urban legends and Han Solo and Luke Skywalker. But regardless, they are hardly cookie cut outs of any character. They are there own unique constructions and I don't think any analysis of any other character is going to tell us more about Dean then the almost 170 episodes of SPN.
That being said, I don't think any of them would go as far as to copy the character from somewhere else & of course that after several seasons the characters are uniquely theirs. What I'm saying is that it says a lot about the archetype they wanted to have for Dean from the start. Somebody on this thread also mentioned James Dean, who was also a bisexual & Dean's role model in the show. Those two facts don't mean anything on its own, but when I add it to everything else in my own interpretation of the show, it starts to amount to something.
PS I would argue that the so called 'original scroll' is much inferior to the novel that Kerouac in fact published. It is wrong to say one is the genuine manuscript and the other is censored. It is much more like one is a draft and the other the properly considered and redacted work.
Blood Brothers 805
Dean to Benny: Benny what’s going on?
Benny to Dean: You and that whole friend thing man…
Benny also tells Dean during the episode, why did you bring me back, you could have left me anywhere and nobody would have know.
In many a convention Jensen has been asked what characteristics of yours do you bring to the character of Dean and his reply has been “both of us are loyal.†Dean is loyal to a fault, which is why when he is or perceives he has been let down by someone he cares about his reaction is so dramatic. He is loyal to those he loves to a fault and he expects the same from those he loves. (Sam, Castiel)
For many years my son tried to get me to watch this show and my response to him was; no way was a show on “The PBN†(Pretty Boy Network) something I was interested in watching. No friggin way two guys that good looking could possibly act their way out of a paper bag let alone thru an actual story line. Fooled me big time!
I started watching and feel in love with this show in Season 4. The first thing that struck me was the relationship between the brothers. I found it so refreshing to see the ups and downs the guys went thru and how they related to each other on a familial way. Of course I had to go back and start watching the first three seasons to really get caught up. I was blown away at the journey these two characters and actors had taken over the years.
You could see the relationship developing/evol ving between Dean and Sam. I always say if I forget I am watching a TV show and feel like I am looking in someone’s window that is good acting. This show does that on a consistent basis.
When I started watching in season 4, my first OMG was the resurrection of Dean and the “Bro hug:†The expression on the faces of the boys when they hugged each other still makes me teary after probably 100 plus viewings. No way in hell did I ever think these guys were gay/bi for their expression of love for each other.
I have been an avid fan now for 5 years but I am new to the “Fandomâ€. I was blown away when I first learned about Wincest/Destiel . I am all for an active imagination but neither of these fanfic’s is my cup of tea. They can stay as fanfic but I do not ever see them being a part of the actual story plot.
I am on the team that believes this would be considered jumping the shark and possibly jumping the entire dam ocean. No way after 8 years are you going to make such a drastic change in a characters core plot.
In all the examples the very verbose Tom described I say the exact opposite. The example that completely blows me away is Dean is selling sex to guys. Um, why is Dean not selling sex to women for money? Cuz I tell you here and now I would pay a very nice sum of money to have that experience my friend.
IMHO, if either of the guys could be considered gay/bi it is Sam. I always say his sex scenes remind me of a rape scene. (Trying to over compensate) Whereas the sex scenes involved with Dean are…oh I may need a moment here. Dean’s sex scenes are more sensual and loving and erotic and sexy and stimulating and sexy and erogenous and sexy and dam it is all that and a bag of chips plain and simple! Dean Winchester is one of the most heterosexual characters ever.
I do believe the writers are aware of the fanfic and are doing a tongue in cheek/wink-wink to the Wincest/Destiel shippers.
I have said on Twitter before there are so many things we can dissect in this show. It would make your head explode if we tried to make every little thing work/fit in to reality. So just sit back and enjoy it while we can.
More important issues:
Why do we only get 22 episodes but most network shows are 24-26 episodes?
How do they get WiFi in the Bat Cave? (air card?)
Do they have insurance on all the phones they go thru (usually 1 per episode)
Why have me never seen Sam eat anything other than a salad in 8 years?
Where do they hide their suits and all the ties they wear? (rarely duplicate a tie)
I'm just saying!
They definitely don't make me think of anything as horrible as a rape scene. Ick.
I too enjoy anytime we get to guys in bed. Nothing better than a naked Winchester!
I do feel SAMs sex scenes are lacking the passion and emotion I get when I watch a Dean sex scene. Wow after reading that sentence I sound like a real perv
I do agree with much of your comment, I think that our personal biases do affect what we each see, however. It wouldn't bother me in one respect but I do think it is a little late in the game. With so much else going on, having Dean come out as bi when many just don't see him this way seems unlikely to me. I am with the people who feel the writers are just playing with us. I do love that the boys have been open-minded about gay characters. Having Dean be a little uncomfortable at times seems perfectly in character to me.
As for your "More important issues":
-Maybe because of budget reasons? I'm not sure.
Or they just like toruring us with not enough Winchester during the year.
-I'm about 67% sure Sam and Dean travel with their own Wi-Fi router and have found a ridiculously illegal way to connect to the Internet no matter where they are.
-Probably they just, every time they visit a phone store buy a stock of them and keep them in the Impala's trunk (see my last point) and whenever they lose one or throw one against the wall, pick out a new one.
-Hey, that's not entirely fair. We saw him eat a doughnut in Phantom Traveler and a sandwich in Like a Virgin...
-You know how Gilda's (?) tent in Larp was bigger on the inside than it looked on the outside? Maybe Sam and Dean have made similar magical enhancements to the Impala's trunk. Then again, the guy who recommended Kripke use an Impala did say you could fit a body in that trunk!
Sam's sex scene with Madison was after a really intense few days where they were convinced she might be a warewolf, the sex came after she didnt turn. There sence of hightnened relief, passions over run, a sence of needing to feel, to release the fear.
Ruby-Sam was at his lowest and sex with Ruby is representative of how he was feeling at the time. The sex scene was rough, full of anger and self hate.
Dr Cara Roberts-that was showing us how Sam has changed, both he and Cara were only after sex. Sam didnt have feelings for her, had no intention of ever seeing her again. They both needed something from each other and that was it. The Sam before demon blood/Ruby/Dean going to hell would never have have gtten involved with her like he did.
Soulless Sam in the bathroom-well the guy didnt have a soul, he just needed to fulfill a pysical need.
Circumstances are everything when it comes to Sam's onscreen hook-ups.
Also look at Dean's oncreen hook-ups and the circumstances surrounding them
Cassie and Dean-he loved her or at least thought he did
Anna-Dean was screwed up from hell and Anna gave him kind words, affirmation, healing, he cared about her or at least was starting to.
The little bit we saw of Lisa and Dean being intimate-again Dean loved Lisa
Lydia-Dean s just looking for sex, she wants something from him, she is in control and Dean gives it over easily. Dean was at a place where he lacked control over his emotions and the things going on around him, that is portrayed in how he lets go and lets Lydia control the entire situation.
So when you copmpare all the times we've seen them have sex on screen its clear to me anyhjow why Deans comes across as more loving and gentle (except for Lydia) compared to Sam's which are always more aggressive, rough. They both have passion but it just comes out in different ways due to the circumstances surrounding them at the time of the hook-up.
I had to laugh at comic-con when Egland had to explain to Jensen what Destiel was, I was actually surprised at that as he seems to have no problem joking around with Misha along these lines.
I have dipped my foot in the wincest pool at times but just for one author who is a marvelous writer find most of the stuff really bad.
I would love a thread where people would post their favorite fanfics of any kind and no XXX.
Jensen is a really beautiful man and he portrays Dean to perfection an icon which I don't think they should mess with. They love to bring up his prettiness on the program and anybody in my opinion straight or gay, young or OLD (me) would want to hit that!! Or as Marvin said Animal or mineral whatever !! I wonder how much people's own longings and wish furfillments are expressed in the comments I have read.
I do not watch this show for 'representation ' or to get educated about sociology or sexuality. While I affirm the show's positive messages about race, gender, sexuality and class and think that they are usually well and subtly handled the real reason I watch Supernatural is entertainment. I love Sam and Dean and mainly I just want to ride with them. I realize that there is a double ententdre there, it is intentional
I do think he likes nice things which includes people who are nice to him and guys who he feels are either somehow cool in someway (e.g. the soldier he 'eyes up'). Or go back to 'Nightshifter' in season 2 - no one can tell me Dean fancied Ronald but just take a minute and pause your DVD on Dean's face when Ronald is talking about the mandroid, he could be in love. That's just Dean. He wants to like people, especially other guys. His relationship to Benny is another case in point: it has zero to do with sex. In fact I'd go so far as to argue that nearly all Dean's deepest relationships have had virtually no sexual element (even in his time with Lisa - and he gave them up in the end for another kind of love) so why do so many people want to turn the most absolute love that Dean enjoys (other than the fraternal one) into a sexual relationship when for Dean sex isn't really the absolute expression of love?
Meanwhile there has never been any evidence that he is uncomfortable with gayness - something some people seem to be using as evidence that he must himself be bisexual/gay (which I think is a total stereotype anyway). I would throw up a bit in my mouth if some guy was suggesting I needed a safe-word or be a bit confused if two guys pretending to be me and my brother turned out to be partners. That my friends is not repressed sexuality or homophobia, it is just normal.
I am really tired of it be said/written that if the writers don't out Dean they will be taking the piss out if the lgb 'community' and somehow gay people individually will be damaged. I just don't see it. Also the possibility that there is a place for an unsure/closeted /insecure bisexual character - there are plenty of people who don't want/feel they can't come out for whatever reason who might get some affirmation from Dean's internal struggles (if there are any). Just my two cents, guys, I am not hating, it is just how I feel.
Please PTB carry on with the positive messages about sexuality, and the in jokes (the 'camp' which I believe is definitely there in Dean's character) but don't turn my favorite ever TV character into a political totem; don't make him something he isn't; let him grow but keep the main aspects if his character intact.
Lets not turn Supernatural into something it is not...it is and has always been just a story about 2brothers and their adventures.
As a great man once said " I am putting that under the if it ain't broke column"
Keep your eyes on that ride babyshoes, coz you won't be getting your ass on it
I think you're right, I have been approached by gay women, and I can tell you it IS flattering and I'm not gay. There are many forms of love that exist and I feel Dean's many forms are no exception. IMO to suggest that men who find other men attractive, (or a certain touch/look or any gesture for that matter) are gay, bi, undecided, in denial or the many forms repression takes, limits the male experience. I am sure gay men have strong yet perfectly non-erotic feelings for the friends, brothers, fathers or other gay men, just like straight men have strong non-erotic feelings for gay men.
I enjoyed reading your thoughts Arad, thanks so much
The writers may have a little fun with the fanfic community, but they don't only do that with the gay thing. Many fan ideas have been "Kripked" - angels, time travel, meeting long lost family members, meeting ancestors... These are writers who enjoy giving a nod to fanfic community. "Blow me, Cas" was a prime example. I'm sure it made Destiel fans squeal. But the context in which Dean said it made it perfectly normal even for straight folks.
I enjoy the fun jabs. But I don't read anymore into them. I don't think they were meant to be anymore than fun jabs.
And I agreed with you about not outing Dean being fine - until this season. Problem is, the "in-jokes" are starting to look intentional and meaningful, so it would seem kind of weird if the writers backed off after a certain point. I still don't think it would damage anyone, but I think it would be a really odd choice given the foundation they went through the trouble of laying! I mean, Sam gets the trials mytharc this season, so why can't Dean have a subtle, emotional version of the trials? Storytelling symmetry, etc.
In any case, I don't see how realistically, carefully developing Dean's sexuality to be more nuanced would mean they were reducing him into a political totem or changing his character. He'd just happen to like dudes too! Besides, you could always argue queer characters are political, but that's something society imposes on them, not the reason writers would go that direction.
I appreciate your perspective, though - although I'm a bit surprised you think viewers could be affirmed by a character they think is closeted! That doesn't have nearly the same power and potential as a character coming out, I feel.
some kid: I totally agree about the Spirk thing, perfect analogy for me. Nice post, thank you.
It was an interesting scene in my opinion, mainly because he barely flirted with her or any other woman this season, and then had a chance to bang a girl that was, in his opinion, hot.
His reaction was a tad bit odd, too. He seemed to only call 'raincheck' when she was obviously hurt.
So, opinions?
Plus you are I think at least the second person to quote Dean as having a "hyper-masculin e" upbringing. Not being a student of gender-politics I'm not 100% certain what this means, but I would love to read the evidence which supports the assertion. Dean does not seem (to me) to exhibit many of the character defects I usually associate with "machismo" but neither does he appear afraid of his own masculinity which he seems to me to balance fairly well against the other aspects of his character (he is also unafraid of domesticity and demonstrable (though non-physical) emotion).
Main character on a genre tv show that doesn't fall into a stereotype and also happens to be bisexual = awesome.
My issue is not with queer representation. It is with the fact that there is no way Dean Winchester could just "happen to be bisexual".
It's another thing entirely that the writers didn't have the guts to make it more explicit.
For the record, I'm not trying to make it about representation, I just think it would be great for Dean's character if he really were bisexual.
I'm not of the opinion that the character, in order to be validated as such, must be outed since the beginning of the series, because it doesn't work that way even in real life, *especially* if you consider Dean's upbringing and issues.
It's a matter of preference for his character development, I guess. I've read so many good metas on his sexuality, so many people have strong opinions on it and it's great to be involved in that type of discussion. I personally feel like the story would be very organic, but not everyone has to agree with me.
The only opinion I'm rigid about is that sexuality of a fictional character is always up to interpretation, there is no definite answer, that's why I can't get behind people's opinions that Dean is nothing BUT canonicaly straight. It just doesn't work that way in real life either.
OK so other than that I go along with some of what you say. In particular that a character needn't always have been portrayed in a certain way for him to legitimately develop into something unexpected (though I caveat that in Dean's case as above).
The idea "that the sexuality of a fictional character us always up to interpretation" is fine, but as soon as the writers of a character "out" him that argument collapses.
I actually see them dealing with it through showing, not telling, and then with a passing mention confirming it (for example Sam saying something, and Dean replying by "It's the way it is, I don't want to talk about it."), because it would actually be very in character for them.
It's open to interpretation just because heterosexuality is a norm and everybody is heterosexual until proven otherwise. Unfortunately, that's just the way it is, heterosexist or not.
Sexuality does not turn you into something you are not.
Sexuality is a valid concern in every TV show, and if you're watching for entertainment, fine, but don't downplay the concerns of real people who want more than just two brothers on the road.
I actively support the writers in exploring Dean's bisexuality, and I'm gonna continue doing so.
The show seems to be taking a serious look at who Dean really is under the John's perfect hunter persona that Dean has wore most o his life. He listened to John's music and only John's music. Yet when he discovers Jazz in the bunker and discovers that he likes it Jazz gets mixed into his collection of rock albums. We've also seen Dean embrace his inner geek. This is another side if Dean that we have only seen hints of over the years in the form of his sarcastic remarks. He makes pop culture references that have us geeks giggle with delight. But if he wasn't a geek himself he would never make those comments and give other people blank stare when they make them. The other thing that
Dean is exploring is his sexuality or his disinterest in one night stands. In Slice girls after his last one night stand of the series he admitted to Sam that he is getting to old for that. It was a major sign of maturity and character development. But Dean has already tried the apple pie life and it didn't work for him. It wasn't just that Sam came back that made Dean leave, dean was a wreck during that year. But he still crazes that kind of intamacy, having someone other than his brother to take care of and love and vice versa.
I will admit I will never understand or like Wincest because it is incest and thinking about it makes me queasy. For those shippers that want to retain the show to make it so they really aren't brothers I have to ask if we are watching the same show. Because this is about two brothers who love each other and want to save the world and each other. It was solidified in last nights episode.
Just because this show is about two brothers doesn't mean it is about only them until the end. Am I the only one that has siblings in this world? If the only people I could interact with we're my immediate family I think we'd go insane and kill each other. Part of the story is the boys learning to live without each other there as constant companions, to learn to love other people and themselves.
Which brings me to Cas and Destiel. I love this ship. Cas looks at Dean, knows everything he has done and still loves him (romantically or not). He can handle himself against the big bads which means that Dean doesn't have to lay down his sword in order to find love. Instead he has found it with a brother in arms. For those of you that don't see Destiel you at least have to admit that Jensen and Misha have amazing on screen chemistry and that Dean and Cas do share a more profound bond. They just don't know how to define that bond.
You might ask why Dean's character is changing so much and Sam's isn't. You may think that this is fan service but I disagree. In the last episode Dean reminded Sam that he has never had his own room (well since it burned down when he was a tiny tot). Sam has, he has run away twice and lives on his own twice. He has always stubbornly rejected John!s view of the world. Sam know exactly who he is and he doesn't hide it. It's why he went to college, it's why he is considering re-enrolling. For Dean this is the first time he has a place to call his own, just his.
So I think before you write off the possibility that Dean could be bisexual think about what that would've meant to his idol.
But I also think Jensen would have problems with it, though. People mention the movie Blonde but I don't recall an instance where they explicitly mentioned or showed scenes where it was obvious the two male characters were ever together. Shared the same woman, sure, but were together themselves? I think Jensen would be cool with toying with little hints, but to flat out be "open" on television? I don't see it. I think the writers just like toying with it, I don't think it'll ever be a serious issue.
I think it'll be pretty great if I'm wrong, though.
He's a grown man and a professional, I don't think he needs us to shield him (especially not from something as harmless as sexual orientation, it's not like he'd have to film porn scenes).
When you think about it actually, it's kind of sad of our society to think that it's normal for him to portray graphic scenes of violence and torture and brutal killings and think it's completely ok for his psyche, but when it's the issue of something so simple and pure as a same sex kiss, then suddenly he needs protection.
Seems like many people (mostly straight) think that it's ok for the show to wink & nudge Dean's sexuality but it would be outrageous and uncomfortable to actually confirm it on screen.
I'm sorry, but that's highly disrespectful to actual queer people.
If you don't see it, it's completely fine, but acting like it would reduce his character or change the show for the worse is not ok.
Sexuality is not a personality trait, it wouldn't change a thing on Dean. Also, it baffles me that some think it would become the focus of the show? Why? Writers are very much capable of telling the character story in the background while focusing on the main plot.
Whatever you say about "hints" they are just that. The stated and subtextual nature of Dean's character is heterosexual, and his relationship with other characters of the same sex is not driven by his sexuality (or their's for that matter - a little discussed aspect of all this is whether Cas or Benny or whoever tumblr is currently fixing Dean up with would actually respond to his new-found sexual interest in them as a consequence of their character development - where are the hints that they are gay/bisexual?). How is Dean (a straight male) responding positively and unprejudicedly to queer sexuality "disrespectful" ? And if we (queers) cannot afford to have a bit of gentle joshing directed at us then shoot me now because all humour is off the market, and I don't much want to live in a world run by prigs.
Sorry if this seems harsh; this conversation obviously exercises my emotions a bit too much, no offense is intended and I hope none caused.
Reduce, as in fans saying that making Dean bisexual would make them stop liking Dean as a character, as if it's something negative, or as if sexual orientation was a personality trait that fundamentally changes his whole character for the worse.
I'm not a shipper, I don't ship everything and anyone, it's just Dean and Cas because I saw something in their relationship that made me think it was romantic in nature.
Independent of Dean & Cas, I also think Dean is canonicaly bisexual & homoromantic, based on his character progression throughout the seasons. I'm not trying to validate my ships or ask for representation, it's something that is a part of my perception of Dean.
Do I want the show to linger on his sexuality crisis or his eventual romantic relationship with Cas? No, because SPN doesn't do that anyway. Would I love them to continue subtly exploring Dean's sexuality? Absolutely yes, because it's an interesting, meaty storyline and ties back to Dean's emotional character arc and identity crisis throughout the seasons (and even before the premiere, in his life with John).
I certainly agree that altering Dean's understanding if his sexuality would not "reduce" him in the sense you give and I am happy for the writers to "continue subtly exploring Dean's sexuality" if that means a similar treatment to the one we have enjoyed up to now. I also very much like the word "homoromantic" to describe Dean's relationships to other male characters.
Incidentally (sorry to repeat myself) but where is the evidence that Cas is homo/bisexual or indeed any sexual? It always seems to be assumed that he will just fall into Dean's arms (not that it is not an assumption I can relate to!).
If you want to read more about Dean and bisexuality, I suggest going through the meta of tumblr user silvenhorror, LINK =silvenhorror.tumblr.com/tagged/meta
She is bisexual and genderqueer and absolutely amazing at explaining the relationship between canon, fanon, representation, subtext or text.
This link=profound--bondage.tumblr.com/tagged/dean-is-bisexual is a compilation of assorted Dean moments that indicate (subtly or not) that he might swing that way on occasion.
The foundation is there, that's why so many people (either subconsciously or through analyzing canon) think he truly is in the proverbial closet.
As for Cas, I never really thought about it. I guess that since he's an angel without gender, it doesn't really matter. We have that famous God/Cas line = "I'm utterly indifferent to sexual orientation." Some would argue that he's asexual, but we've seen that it's not true (he can get a boner from watching porn, and we've seen Gabriel and Balthazar enjoying sex with humans). Calling Cas homosexual or bisexual is kind of pointless, since he can easily change vessels (we've seen him as a teenage girl already). I'd classify him as pansexual or even demi.
As for his attraction/inte rest for Dean, we've already seen that he equates sex with love, and we all agree he loves Dean the most. Some would call it platonic, but it's only with Dean that Cas feels the need to invade his personal space and stand too close to him, watch & stare at him intently, which suggests that he feels some type of physical attraction.
I love the angel vessel point you made here as well in regards to sexual identity. Like Dean, so many people frequently forget that Cas isn't actually human. All angels can be classified as pansexual in this regard. It's something they are never going to address though.
All well said.
I have read a few people who say they like it in fan fiction, but don't necessarily want it on the show, but this isn't necessarily a gay thing. I totally shipped Mulder/Scully(r ead 100's of fan fictions shipped them), but I have to admit as much as I wanted to see them get together, I did really worry it would negatively impact the show. Sexual and romantic relationships can dramatically change the tone of a show, even if your not suddenly introducing a completely new aspect of a character's sexuality. The creator of X-Files knew this too, that is why 99% percent of their relationship we still have to guess at. Heck the only reason we know they had a relationship is because she got pregnant. And there were still complaints about that. Many of them justified.
Now while I don't ship anyone in this fandom. Straight or gay, a romantic gay couple on the screen is something I would love to see -on another show. I would love- totally love to see a freakin' badass mofo get with his equally kickass partner. And if they happened to be play by the actors on this series, I would be great with that. Now it is hard to find good characters on television, let alone a great romance- straight or otherwise. But I would love to see complex characters who just happened to be gay or bi, having to deal with a growing attraction, while apart of a larger story or my second choice would be a Captain Jack type character who gets with anyone and everyone. But I have a weakness for romance (when it's done right-which it rarely is), so I would definitely vote for the former.
But not on this show with these established characters.
Total aside:[I read a few recommended Destiel to see if I could they were picking up on something in the show I wasn't, but I never read anything that came close to changing my mind that Dean was straight. I even had trouble seeing Cas sexual or romantic being. For me, every time they tried to write that type of dialogue for him it never sounded like the character. (I honestly could see Benny with Dean before Cas, but don't see him as bi so really neither works for me)]
I totally understand where you're coming from when you voice your concerns about doing the relationship and characters justice, or quite simply -- not screwing things up. I'm of the opinion that they already proved themselves in the romantic department (because their scenes are already ridiculously romantic to me & their progression felt organic), it's just the matter of doing it justice by establishing it explicitly.
At this point, it's more of a preference issue, and less of a debate on if it's plausible or not. To me, they're just like any other will-they-won't -they couple, with a solid foundation and a still uncertain future. Some people like it, some don't, but there's undeniably something there.
As for Dean being bisexual or not, it's clear to me that you don't see it and that's ok. It's a tricky issue because to the most of us, people are heterosexual until proven otherwise. This is true even in real life when people sometimes see the signs, yet still choose to ignore them because they don't have explicit confirmation (for example parents of queer children). It's something that happens on a subconscious level. As for Dean, I think they're threading the fine line of subtext and have done it for quite some time now. When I hear the same thing from my non-fandom straight male friends, then you know the TPTB are dangerously beyond it already.
To me, outing Dean as bi wouldn't change a thing on him. After all, it's not a matter of personality, it's only a bedroom preference. He is a curious character in that regard because of his unique upbringing. His entire character arc is about finding his own identity, because he never got the chance during his childhood. The most heartbreaking thing I've read was the excerpt from John Winchester's journal:
“Dean turns twenty-one today. I’d buy him a beer if I thought it would be something new. He’s also old enough to buy his own guns now. I tried to raise him right, and looks like I did. He’s a scam artist, a ladies’ man and an absolutely loyal son. I've spent the last sixteen years afraid that I was going to screw him up somehow. Maybe now I can forget about that.â€
He was never really allowed to be his own man. Maybe that's why I love his sexual identity crisis storyline so much. It's subtle and poignant and liberating for his character in a much more direct way than anything else on this show. It's personal and not connected to Sam or anyone else for that matter, it's Dean taking his own path.
If he wants to watch 'Black Swan', Patrick Swayze movies or 'Dr. Sexy', wear pink satin panties & cowboy boots, geek out to Star Trek and LARPing, listen to jazz and Nat King Cole 'Songs for two in love' on vinyl, sleep with men AND women, so be it. He's not daddy's blunt little instrument anymore and I love it.
I have never seen one thing that leads me to believe that Dean is sexually attracted to Cas or vice versa. I do believe they love each other but that it has nothing to do with a sexual or romantic relationship.
When I first came into this discussion, there were a lot of posts dismissing Dean's sexuality as a joke and his relationship with Cas as a fanon construct. I just wanted to provide different points of view and help you understand what different people see in the show. I certainly don't want to change your mind (that's usually impossible
Discussion with only one kind of opinion quickly descends into a misconception that majority of people think the same, so therefore they must be right. That's why I don't read certain other unnamed forum anymore. I quite like the discussion here because even if there are people with diametrically different opinions, we can still discuss it civilly and with good arguments, so thank you for that.
It's like tumblr freaking out because he turned down sex in the last episode. He turned down sex because they were literally minutes away from killing a hellhound. They were kinda on a tight schedule.
Dean was checking out the soldier because he thought his uniform was cool. A kind of "I'm in 1945!" cool.
This is why I can't discussions like this seriously anymore.
Dean's grown up quite a bit. The character has evolved. He's experienced domestic bliss for a short time. Had Jo and Ellen die practically in front of him. He's a grown man that has experienced heartbreak, not a young horn dog anymore.
I think fans see only what they want to see and the writers are laughing at us.
As I said before, you don't need to see it, because everybody has different opinions and interpretations of the show. I only take issue when people feel the need to 'defend' Dean's heterosexuality aggressively, as if it's something that needs to be defended.
The writers (and probably also directors and especially Jensen) are at fault that people see it and choose to interpret it that way. They put it into the text (or subtext for that matter). If they choose to go through with it, more power to them, I personally think it would be groundbreaking.
Because -- bisexual character that's also the main character of a genre show that is not a cliche and not only defined through his sexual orientation and is in fact badass and a BAMF? Yes please.
Late to the game or not, you will feel welcome here. I have heard this mentioned before that this site is more Samcentric but I really don't get that impression. I think the majority of the fandom support both brothers passionately even though the 'lean' ever-so-slightl y towards one or the other. There are a few who adore Sam to distraction but usually not at Dean's cost. So if your gripe doesn't involve brother or fan bashing, you really can discuss anything. Looking forward to hearing your POV.
I ship Destiel. Not from the beginning, like some, but through the things that these two characters have gone through together. Ask me at what moment and I honestly couldn't even tell you. But at this point I find I can’t not put them together. I’m sitting here reading all these comments about Dean’s sexuality and just shaking my head. Do I think the show is gearing up to out Dean specifically as bisexual or gay? Absolutely not . I for one agree with kaj’s post about the psychology theory that everyone is bisexual. Agree or don’t. I don’t care. We are all a combination of DNA hard wiring (something they are exploring in regards to angels this year) and our nurturing (an on going theme of this show – the road- the journey Sam and Dean are undergoing). Sexual attraction is attributed to a vast combination of things, simply put.
Dean’s regard to Cas is a combination of a vast number of things. No one is going to tell me Dean doesn’t love him. He does. I’m not talking about kissing and sex here. Dean loves Castiel. It’s a part of him – a part that I believe has changed over time, just like Dean has changed over time. I think at this point in the season, Dean himself doesn’t even understand what it is he feels. Consider the points we’ve seen over 8.13 and 8.14.
8.13 – What’s important here isn’t the fact that Aaron hit on Dean and Dean’s reaction, it’s how he hit on Dean. He spoke of a “connection†and “eye-magic†. These are things that Dean associates with Cas. Both of which have been acknowledged by both Cas and Dean in canon (5.18 regarding the way Cas looks at Dean and 6.3 with the mention of the “profound bondâ€). Ben Edlund (the writer) wrote Dean telling Aaron “No. No moment†instead of “Sorry I don’t swing that way†for a reason. The writers and producers have collectively decided to explore Dean’s concept of self.
8.14 – Now here the producers and writers go as far as to actress cast Ellie as someone who in the past has been exactly Dean’s "type" and have him give her a struggling “I can’t†as a reason to not have sex. What’s more, the flirt is a direct 180 from the previous episode. Ellie tells him point blank “I think you’re really hot. Let’s have sex.†Look again at Dean’s face- at the disbelief at what this (hot) woman just said before the struggling “I can’tâ€. After she asks “What?†Dean searches for a reason to tell her. Now you have to understand Dean Winchester is a professional liar. He could have said any reason at this moment. You see his eyes quickly filter through many things before they hit it – the truth. You can see when Dean sees it and closes his eyes, because he won’t say it out loud. It’s a combination of things at the moment (hunting the hound the most predominate here). What’s important here isn’t why he turned her down, but that he turned her down and was clearly confused with what he found as reasoning. We the audience do not get to see his reasoning, nor hear it later. All you can see is Dean’s confusion in that moment. Was Dean attracted to Ellie? Hell yes. But at this point was it enough? No. And that’s the point.
Now these are just two examples from a staggering amount of self identity moments that are showcased throughout this season regarding how the writers are choosing to develop Dean’s character and I can tell you this - it’s not random. If you don’t see that I can’t make you. All of these “moments†for Dean are conscious acting, filming and writing decisions on the part of Supernatural cast and crew. They have focused on showing us that Dean is finally showing us parts of himself that he hasn’t had the opportunity to explore (geeking out to LARPing), because let’s face it – it’s been one crisis after another for Dean from the moment he was told to take his brother and run. Dean hasn’t had time to be anything else other than the selfless hero/protector .
Now here at the end of 8.14 we have Sam’s beautiful speech to his brother that clearly shows where the producers and writers want to take the show to its end. Sam tell Dean – Dean, we can have a life – both with and outside of one another. We both have something to fight for and we’re going to do it. You don’t have to protect me anymore. We're going to fight together and for each other and what we want. That one moment is honestly the most refreshing thing that has ever happened on this show and it moved me to tears (as Supernatural often does). Dean was finally told what he needed to hear, by the one person he needed to hear it from. He's going to think long and hard about what is important to him, what he wants and let’s face it – it's their friends yes, closing the gates of Hell, definitely, but most of all it's to have Sam and Cas in his life.
That said, I want Dean and Cas to get together, but I’m more nervous about how the show does it. I mean, they’ve clearly opened the door here. The Supernatural cast and crew have been smart about it so far and are clearly looking at fan response online. They understand what a huge chunk of their fan base wants. How can they not? We’ve seen them wink and nod to both the Destiel fans and Wincest fans plenty, but this season is different and it both excites and scares the hell out of me.
I want them to go there with Dean and Cas, I do, but it seems like such a tough equation. Having Dean and Cas together would mean a lot to a lot of people (the LGBT community fanbase being the biggest). Supernatural has the potential to really represent something here. That fact can’t be dismissed. I am always so concerned when it comes to gay representation and acceptance by the general public. Do I want them to go there simply to represent the LGBT community? Uh, NO. Will all the fans be accepting if they do? Hell no. Will Supernatural lose some “straight†male viewers? Probably. Should that stop them? I sincerely hope not.
At the end of it all, I’m like long time producer Robert Singer - I want Sam and Dean to have some damn peace. That’s all. I don’t want them to be happily ever after or anything like that - after all, I hate stories like that. They aren’t realistic. If anything this season we can see that the brothers are tired of pretending, they're tired of running. I want Sam and Dean to finally take control of their lives – to have people in their lives that they deserve, and that person for Dean, to me, is Castiel. Through it all he has seen the best and worst of Dean. Dean never has to pretend anything for him and never will. They’ve been through so much together.
We all deserve someone who loves us for all we are and all we’re not. That’s what we really want in life, isn’t it? Now please Supernatural, show me.
I don't talk for any community or part of the fandom but myself but I really think some of the scenes/dialog choices this season have been really interesting in a character driven way, interpret them how you will...but I greatly enjoy the production, writing and direcion of season gr8.
The cast and crew of Supernatural are amazing and Jeremy Carver has done an excellent job of show running. An excellent job. All the writers too, both new and old. The season parallels many themes for many characters, the most predominate being the relationships between supernatural beings and humans in regards to love. It's clear and well thought out, not the raging mess of seasons 6 & 7 (though each had things I liked and disliked respectfully - they were both still a jigsaw puzzle with too many pieces not fitting and some disregarded entirely) I really want to say I see what they are envisioning here. I see structure and mystery - a great blend of humor and drama while staying true to the genre.
I'm not like most fans in that I just want a show to continue on and on because I love it. I like development then closure. I want to see this show and its characters come full circle and be in a better place than before.
Season gr8 indeed.
I am in total agreement with you about Dean loving Cas. Do I think Dean is IN love with Cas, no. To me they are two completely different things. They have been through many battles and emotional situations that have bonded them forever. As strong as brothers. Dean looks at Cas with affection (bemused usually) and clearly cares for him. The same can be said of Benny for many of the same reasons. Does he want to have sex with them? I don't believe so. Dean has an affectionate expression he only uses with the people he loves and trusts. I read that as a brotherly love and I guess some see it as seductive.
Now the Ellie situation, when has Dean as much as he enjoys sex EVER gotten busy with someone when there was a hunt or business to be taken care of ala the hellhound? I took his reaction as really being tempted but aware that he had to take care of business. Not any kind of sexual confusion IMO. Dean hasn't been shy about indulging under other circumstances. He hasn't been all that motivated since Lisa and Ben but there have been moments!
You said you didn't care if people agreed with you or not but I just wanted to give my slant on it. Thanks.
I love to see how others see things, even if I don't agree with them. Yes, loving someone and being in love with them are two different things. Perhaps I was not clear. Dean at this point isn't in love with Cas (or at the very least is and doesn't really understand why or how), but I beileve that should change. Castiel on the other hand is very much in love with Dean. By the middle of season 5 that much is clear to me. Cas was cut off from Heaven, grounded in his vessel and begun to really feel for the first time what it meant to be human. After his powers were restored when God brought him back at the end of season 5, the love he had for Dean didn't disappear and in fact broke him (just like Dean said towards the end of season 7 with heavy regret may I add). Dean stated he didn't believe angels were capable of caring like humans, voicing his own experience here and essentially writing off Cas's capacity to love him in this way.
I've already stated my opinion on bisexuality, that being said (and I only mention this since you mentioned your sexuality) I am what most people label as straight if you want some perspective in regards to yourself. I believe you can fall in love with someone you care about, period. It is a very fine line that is easy to cross and happens all the time. I am female, married, been with the same man for 14 years, have 2 children - one is 7, the other 8. I am 29 years old. I believe I could have just as easily fallen in love with a women, maybe never married or had children at all, but those I chose to care about, those I chose to label as my family shaped me into who I am and who I fell in love with. Sometimes you chose those people, sometimes they chose you and sometimes we don't have a choice at all. Love happens. I believe it is both fate and freewill, two sides of the same coin (and an important theme of the show).
If anything I can say I don't pair Dean with Cas because I find it necessarily hot or "seductive". There is something so very romantic about their whole relationship, an angel in love with a human - let's face it, it's been done before. If Cas was in a female vessel I believe most Destiel fans would feel the same way about Cas and Dean considering their history and likewise the character development for Dean wouldn't be at the all important decision it is now. I challenge you to look at who you are in love with more than anything in this world and then put a mirror in front of your face and then ask yourself how many times Dean has looked at Cas with your expression. Now imagine that person just ripped out your heart and betrayed you and look again, we've seen this expression too.
Dean has been in love before, with Lisa. I think Dean loved both Lisa and her son Ben as well as he loved the idea of them as a family. What's important here is that he never actually called them family (that I can recall) and he was forced to sacrifice too much of what he was to fit into their lives. Dean was not happy. The friggin Impala was under a tarp for crying out loud.
The point is, the writers have never given Dean a strong female love interest, and not for a lack of trying, the fandom has been against it for various reasons you can find all over the internet. I'm not speaking for them. I for one have loved almost all of the female characters Dean has been paired with since they each brought something to Dean's perception of the different forms of love, but I've yet to see any of them show Dean what it truly means to be happy with himself. I just want Dean to feel self worth, for him to be happy with himself and know there are those that care for him beyond the bonds of his blood.
And this is it. This is the challenge for Dean that the writers have put forth for him to work out through the end of the show. It doesn't matter that many people think Dean only sees Cas as a brother. The writers are going to put themselves in Dean's shoes, they are going to consider what he has been though, what the audience feels is important to him and they are going to write what they believe he would do and feel. That's what it means to be a writer and actor. Sometimes they give us what we want for characters, sometimes they don't, but always they try to go for what is real and natural.
The whole question of this thread is why are they putting such an emphasis on Dean's sexuality at this point since it is clear that the writers and producers have gone from flirting with certain things to creating an "elephant in the room" situation of (specifically) Dean's characterizatio n that can no longer be ignored. Everyone has seemed to notice.
Will they write in a new random romance for Dean that is male at this point? I don't think so, who would care? (Sorry Benny and Dean fans). No, it all comes down to Castiel here, fans should see this (Destiel fans or not). With Cas there is years of history, years of design (whether in humor or otherwise) and unvoiced attraction (look again at how many times Dean looks at Cas's lips/body when talking to him and tell me I'm wrong).
I think what has so many upset at this point and has finally drawn the proverbial line is that it is time to make a decision (like they've been saying all season: "you're either in or you're out"). And I personally feel they've danced with the Destiel fans long enough. I have invested a piece of myself into these characters, Dean, Sam, Castiel (we're not even going to mention what I've gone through with Bobby). This is a passionate and diverse fanbase that both terrifies me and thrills me to be a part of. It has moved me in more ways than I can put into words (characters, people I have loved have died - I've lost them right along side Dean and Sam). I've carved this show into my flesh (literally). I'm not some crazed delusional fangirl, nor am I in my emotional position for any kind of gay "cuteness" like so many Supernatural Destiel fans have been painted to be. And I'm not alone.
So this is really to the writers Leah, not you. You seem to want to understand where I am coming from, so I can only tell you how I feel.
Writers: don't merely "tip your hat" at the audience's feelings at this point, especially at such a delicate issue (to many). It is just cruel. It's time to make a decision, specifically with Dean. It is time to have him figure out what Cas means to him romantic or otherwise. Make it clear and then move on. No one should expect the show to restructure to frequent Destiel fanservice anyway. This ain't the Vampire Diaries.Humor is an important part of this show, a part that I love immensely. Dean getting hit on and mistaken for gay for humor no longer amuses me, especially in regards to the "in all seriousness" tone is has taken this season. Don't be a troll Supernatural. Have Dean kiss Cas or move on. Anything else at this point is going to piss a lot of people off.
I would like to share a few more thoughts about Cas. The thing is I think Cas is very naive and childlike in many ways. I do think he loves Dean but I have trouble seeing it as sexual. I think he admires and and sees Dean as the embodiment of what is good about humans . Through Dean he has come to see humans in terms other than distain, which is how most angels seem to view us. I see him looking with tenderness at Dean but I see it as someone who has seen Dean at his lowest, pick himself up and do the right thing time after time. And he loves and respects him for that. Maybe there is a thin line between that and a romantic relationship but at this time I am not there.
I have seen Dean look at Sam with the same expression of affection and also the same look of hurt and betrayal.
I completely agree that love happens and who you fall in love with is sometimes beyond our control. For the record I have no issues with anyones sexuality. My only problem with this all is that I haven't read the signs and hints the same as some of you. Dean is so firmly rooted in my mind as strongly hetero, and has been since the beginning, that I can't see him otherwise.
My passion for this show and it's fans is strong as well and if there is one thing I have learned is to try and be opened minded about the opinions of others and to try and put myself in their shoes. It doesn't always work but I try
At the end of it all I just want some good solid writing and for Dean to be at peace, be it by my interpretation of what would make him happy or otherwise. Like I said the equation for Dean to be paired with Cas is so crazy to me that I just don't see how they are going to do it with the least amount of fallout which is why I and so many others care about the writing decisions the whole team has made *structured effort* for this season and Jensen has made pointed acting decisions regarding Dean's specific feelings toward Cas. Hell, my jaw pointedly dropped for the Aaron scene and I whispered, "Oh No. They're actually going to do it." (as in write a romantic relationship for Dean and Cas).
This thread all boils down to the writing decisions in Supernatural, because here in season eight something has visibally and blantly changed, almost everyone can see it. I don't think any of us want Dean alone watching Sam live the life he's always wanted. The fans and writers will want someone for Dean to have for himself. I just don't see them writing in someone new for him this late in the game so that only leaves Cas. My position is both one of dread, yet nervous excitement - since so much could blow up in their faces. I care about the show, not the specific plot of Dean and Cas and only that (though that an important part for me).
This has been made into a sexuality matter that can't be helped and that is regretful. I just don't want it to ruin my show and characters with poorly written plot and development. If they never write Dean and Cas into a romantic role I am totally fine with that, I can respectfully love the Cas as a brother plot too and ship that (for years I did), but (from this season on) that's not what they are gearing up towards.
I'm actually of the opinion that nothing has to change dramatically or plotwise for it to work, because their relationship already is a close one, but by making it canon it adds to Dean character. After all, I just want to see him happy and with someone important in his life.
It's a sexuality issue at the moment, because they need to establish it for Dean *before* they do anything else, they've been toying with it for too long. I'd be content with them dropping subtle hints throughout season 8 & even 9, confirm it in the background (because SPN can actually be very good at subtle when it wants to), and only then maybe make Dean & Cas canon, also without lingering on their relationship more than they need to.
And I have seen something like this screwed up too often to be willing to risk SPN.
I'd actually be ok with them eventually confirming their relationship with an off-hand comment thrown into the show as a no big deal. I'm more interested in them validating their relationship than making it a plot point. (although I'm of the opinion that they don't deserve nothing less than any other het couple, but I'm not going to go into that, this is an article on Dean's sexuality, not Dean&Cas)
Agree or not I am very much enjoying reading the comments (the respectful ones). Please carry on.
He said it himself, he lies professionally. It's not to much of an assumption to think that he could be lying to himself.
I think it's a fundamental mistake to try to understand his character through the things he says, because the show has told us numerous times that Dean has a skewed perception of himself, and I'm not only talking about his sexual identity, but also about his sense of self-worth and individuality.
He said multiple times "I don't swing that way." and it was always in a threatening situation of someone asserting his power over him, and he uses that line as a jab and a weapon against the aggressor. It's not an accident that Dean is always the one on the receiving end of sexual aggression by another male, the writers have always been toying with Dean's hypermasculine front vs. his softer feminine qualities (he has been thrust into the role of a caretaker and a nurturer from a very early age).
He doesn't 'swing that way', yet all of his close relationships have been with males, he's quick to connect with guys, while his relationships with women aren't as mature. Women are either idolized as mother figures or used as objects, and it's not a foundation for a healthy relationship either way. I'd go as far as to say he's dancing the line of being homoromantic, regardless of his sexual preferences. It's not something that started with Castiel, either. It's been there since s2, or even s1. He flirts and connects with guys and that's a fact. It doesn't have to be shown explicitly on screen to make me think that there might be something else beneath the surface of his carefully constructed macho persona.
All of this doesn't make him canonically bisexual, but it provides the foundation. At this point no one is right, because we can't say for certain he's bisexual, BUT we also can't say he's not. I think the writers have been very careful in NOT confirming his heterosexuality and that leaves his character open for interpretation. Some would love it, some would not, but that's true for every storyline on the show, regardless of what it's about. Different people, different tastes.
There is a lot here I agree with wholeheartedly. But I want to take up two points, briefly as possible:
1. "I don't swing that way" has been used both to defend Dean's heterosexuality and as evidence of his gay/bi-ness. I don't think it indicates either. Mostly he uses it to poke fun at someone who is threatening him (and not in a sexual way - for example the Croatoan-infect ed guy at the check-point, or Hendrickson (when he actually says "we don't swing that way" referring to being handcuffed/chai ned) but to try and turn the tables on them). I can't think of an instance where Dean has said this to a really gay character (though I am open to correction).
2. Of course what a character says about himself and about other things is as important as what he does and how he acts. Self-identifica tion is a huge part of sexual identity and I don't think anyone should be telling a person who doesn't identify as gay/bi whatever (i.e. doesn't say it) that they are gay because of some other character/perso nality traits that seem (in a stereotype) associated with homosexuality. The character is made up from how the person perceives himself as well as how he responds to other characters, its not all one-sided. Even if the character doesn't know himself well. When you talk about "showing" and "telling" in this situation, what Dean says is also often "showing".
Quote:I agree with all this. But just because it is there, it doesn't mean it's something I want, would like, to see explored in terms of sexuality on screen. Especially if it involved romance with Castiel. I feel that all these aspects of Dean's character have been and are being examined so subtly and intelligently, without driving home any "point" or forcing Dean into some box. To change direction now would be like turning a well-honed, sharp story and character development in to a great big fat hit-you-in-the- face-with-its-o bviousness stunt: "Wow we are the first genre show on network TV which doesn't have an ensemble cast to give you an ass-kicking, straight-acting bisexual main character/hero! Look at us!"
I, for one, think they'd continue with their subtle and intelligent 'showing, not telling' thing they've got going on, because it's something SPN does very well. I don't think anyone truly wants a loud, flamboyant, in your face romantic storyline. Hell, they might not even confirm it until the very finale of the series and I'd be fine with it (I love Mulder&Scully, Doctor&Rose, Peter&Olivia).
I just think they'd waste a whole lot of great potential if they leave it as it is now and never get around to addressing it.
I agree for the 'I don't swing that way.' comment, it shouldn't be used as proof for anything because it was always used in very specific circumstances. He didn't use that comment when he was faced with actual, non-threatening situation -- a cute guy flirting with him in 8x13. I can't forget the lingering shot of Dean putting away his badge and then stumbling over chairs all flustered.
I wanted to let you know I think your points have been absolutely amazing, reasonable and well thought out. I see you get that this plot line cannot be done well or in a subtle way in the 8th season of a show that has been thoroughly unsuccessful (and mostly uninterested) in depicting the characters sex-lives. Also, let's face it, SPN isn't really all that politically correct at the best of times, it is part of it's charm (for me, usually, but not always...) they would have to spend every episode making sure they didn't tread on anyone's toes or causing unexpected controversies.
I 100% agree that:
To change direction now would be like turning a well-honed, sharp story and character development in to a great big fat hit-you-in-the- face-with-its-o bviousness stunt: "Wow we are the first genre show on network TV which doesn't have an ensemble cast to give you an ass-kicking, straight-acting bisexual main character/hero! Look at us!"
is EXACTLY what would happen. I have no doubt. Even if the show didn't want it to be a huge deal the CW would take it and make it that.
I have already given my take on whether I think Dean is gay or bi elsewhere so I won't go back into it now.
Keep up the good work!
No. I believe it will.
A part of me wishes they would "fix" the Naomi mind hacking of Castiel's vessel by having him go into another vessel anyway. Why else have Crowley specifically mention meta about how angels occupy vessels? But I'm sorry, that would make me upset. I love Misha Collins and what he has brought to Castiel's character. I don't want to see him go. Ever.
The vessel thing and Dean's knowledge of them being genderless is something he has thought about and voiced his musings about though out several seasons many times. Why linger on that and keep bringing it up if Dean isn't thinking about such concepts for a reason? I think it's something Dean reminds himself of because it's something he has thought of physically in regards to Cas, rather in passing or in depth analyst.
You always mention the brother aspect and this is where I am more on the fringe in regards to Dean anyway. I don't think Dean sees Sam as a brother in the traditional sense. I too am the older of a sibling pair that was raised without a father. Growing up, I was the father to my brother. Parents care for their children and are responsible for them. I have always had this role and only through time has it evolved into a more traditional sibling relationship. When Dean tells Cas that he is like a brother to him, he is essentially saying that he cares for him, but more importantly, that Cas is a responsibility to him.
This is something Cas tries to change in 8.07.
Cas tells Dean that he is his own person, that he isn't Dean responsibility. He tells Dean to let go of thinking of him in this sense. I think Cas still wants Dean to think of him as family, but without the responsibility bit, which clearly opens up the door for something else. It's a long complicated mess to be sure, but that's why I can take away the brother in arms bit more and more and look at where Dean and Cas can go from here.
I look at everything Cas has done for Dean and say these are not actions I personally would take unless I was in love with someone. I look at Dean and say there is no way he doesn't see that once he starts looking at everything that has lead him to now. It's not something he should not address and verbally - how this important person feels towards him. I want him to handle this decision with his heart. It's not something the show should ignore anymore.
I'm glad Benny was introduced into the show as Dean's friend, because through him you can see the stark contrast between Dean being friends with someone and his connection with Cas.
The way I see it, the narrative established Cas' love for Dean in season 6, and Dean's love for Cas in s8, while season 7 showed just how much Dean needs both Cas and Sam in his life and how disjointed he feels without either of them. To drop their story this late in the show would be a major lost opportunity for me.
Some feel like the show would need to change direction, but I feel like it was always heading there. :/
I think it's funny. This show never planned to go on this long, but lots of people carried it, have loved it and changed it. Carver and Edlund probably feel the way their character's namesake felt at his end. Ending are a raging pain in the ass and the fans are always going to grip. All I can say is that I like where it's going, where it's been and I'll be with it til the end.
I adore Cas and do not want to see his character altered. I LOVE that they love each other, we just differ in how we see that love. We shall see how it plays out.
This thread is rife with bisexual erasure.
Guys. Bisexuality is a thing. Dean having sex with lots of women his whole life does not negate him being potentially attracted to men as well. Dean having a long term relationship with a man does not mean he would stop finding women sexually attractive.
We know he likes women. That's cool. But please don't use this as an argument against his potential bisexuality.
By all means, debate the significance of "I don't swing that way" or his crush on Dr. Sexy. But please don't say that him liking women automatically disqualifies him from liking men as well. Please don't say that him entering a relationship with a man means he's "turning gay."
That's all.
I said in another thread, where there was a debate of who is/isn't main and secondary characters, that I don't like definitions. Maybe because I think they are always so imperfect, incomplete.
I try not to hurt my head with that. Live and let live, I guess.
I just thought it was a nice term that summarized my view of his character.
Do you really think it’s simple!?
I find it very complicated. But then, I have a problem filling forms! When I have to put an ‘x’ on ‘race’, instant identity crisis. For instance:
In Central Africa, I might put ‘snow white’.
In my country, I’m just ‘white’. I’m from Brazil, by the way. A descendent of Italians. And Portuguese. And... I don't know.
But in the USA, I don’t know: Latino, maybe. Which till this day I don’t know exactly what it means. Latino as in from Latin America, or it also includes italians, the portuguese, spaniards, as per, people who speak a language that came from Latim, as opposed to anglo-germanic? Because we have here very fair-haired, fair-skin people, German descendents, that looks nothing like the Latinos I see in the movies. Is it a race or the place you are borne? If I were bourne in the USA instead of Brazil, from the same parents, will I be Latino or 'white'? Not kidding, it’s an actual doubt of mine. If someone knows the answer… please.
Oh, yeah, and in Norway I’m at least brown. Maybe even black, depending on how good the summer vacation was.
Actually, your example with the skin color is very good, because sexuality is just as complicated in real life & extremely fluid. It's kind of interesting that for all its variety we still watch the same old cliches on TV or in movies.
On a side note, I would LOVE to see Dean's face is someone called him a hetero-leaning bisexual & homo-leaning biromantic.
But I do agree with you, some of the fans are incredibly distasteful (especially the ones who pull the actors and their wives into all of this). Unfortunately, you can't shut people up, you can only ignore it.
But really this is a discussion board and people like to discuss things. You can agree with someone's point of view or disagree but it is a little unreasonable to say they can't have the conversation.
Rhaenyss (if I understand you correctly) you have been talking all along about subtle indications that Dean is gay or bi and that you don't want the writers to make a huge song and dance about it when they incorporate it into the story, so why say that what they are doing at the moment is making fun of someone's sexual orientation? What about all the examples that you (and others) have used in your discussion showing why you believe that Dean is bi?
Also since it is mentioned in the original article it IS about Sam and Dean possibly being gay (satire or not).
I do have to note as well that this discussion started as a stalemate and remains so but it has been very, very interesting and I learned some new words!!
I think I skimmed the comments pretty well, but if I'm reiterating someones idea I'm super sorry.
Anyways, I want to address the question "why always Dean?".
I find that lot of people are turning to the writing/directi ng as an explanation for the sexual undertones of Deans 'bromances', but I was thinking. what if it's not show, but Jensen himself?
Now, this theory is kind of complicated so just stay with me for a second. First of all, I'm not trying to say anything about Jensen's sexual orientation, he is obviously happily married and I'd never suggest other wise. Again, I am NOT trying to determine or say anything about Jensen's sexual orientation.
However, I believe that Jensen Ackles, and in extension his character Dean, are a social symbol of American masculinity. Jensen (as an ideal) is a handsome Texas boy and an athlete, and Dean is the womanizing classic car, classic rock loving, bad boy. Jensen and Dean both represent the quintessential American 'mans man'.
The first time I watched Jensen Ackles outside of Supernatural was in Ten Inch Hero, and I was pleasantly shocked. There was something so amazingly arousing about seeing this 'all American boy' wear a skit, dye is hair, and sport some piercings (even if they were fake), that I couldn't get over.
When Dean comfortably accepts an 'unmanly' amount of affection from other male characters I get the exact same feeling. Yet, Sam does not illicit the same response. This is because, from the beginning of the series, he was suppose to be the liberal and open-minded brother to Dean's gun toting honkey-tonk ways. Watching Sam show emotions towards the same sex was expected.
I think this is why Dean's relationships are often sexualized. His open-minded behavior is not considered to be normative of the all-American ideal that Jensen and Dean symbolize, and that's HOT for both straight and LGBTQ people. Why this is attractive is up for debate on my end. Personally (as a female) I have to admit I enjoy the taboo aspect of complicating the masculine symbol of Dean. I'm sure for a lot of people it's about the fantasy of having the unattainable, or something totally different?
But that's my theory. I think the writers picked up on this too, not shaped it, and now they like to play with idea maybe a little too much so we see a lot of tension between Dean and other male characters written in. But initially we (the fans) created Dean's perceived bisexuality because Jensen Ackles has this beautiful duality about him that allows him the ability to act ultra masculine yet comfortably feminine, which is really rare.
But seeing things that are not shown in the SPN series, and suddenly everybody "thinks" they are gay just because of a word or sentence, is quite disturbing. I think the boys are normal hetero men, a rose is a rose is a rose. Not more or less.
The connection from Dean to Benny is normal, in a traumatic situation you build a very deep relationship to the person who went through the same experience. Aske every soldier or veteran. And the Purgatory was a traumatic situation. And Dean as a normal hetero man would never talk about it not even with Sam his brother, but with Benny he doesn't have to talk, becaus Dean knows that Benny knows. And that is what I personly think the writers tried to implement.
And Sam, he's an introverted person even though he wants to talk. But with whom can he talk? Theres nobody who had the same traumatic experience as he did. Dean can only emphasize Sam's feeling but he can't relate to them. Sam doesn't have a Benny, with whom he can share his thought's. Sam is alone, and it's just human to be jealous at somebody that can share with an another person. And what hurts Sam more is that not even Dean has a war buddy but that Benny is also a "monster".
And thats the beauty of this series, it shows that life, family and their relationship to each other are complicated, and there is never a solution that goes direct from A to B.
Greetings from Berlin Germany