By request, I’m opening up a new “Let’s Discuss†thread. Primarily, the flashbacks. Both Sam and Dean’s, although Sam’s are certainly raising some questions right now.
Are they real? Imagined? Distorted? Manipulated by angels? Relevant to a larger story in the works, or do we accept them for what they are?
Here’s just a small set of possible things to discuss…
- The lighting of these scenes. They’re awfully bright. Dean's are more washed out, while Sam’s have a halo type quality. What is this supposed to represent?
- What clues have you noticed that tells you these flashbacks are real or not?
- What are these flashbacks telling you about the characters?
- What do you think about Amelia and Benny?
- Are these flashbacks doing any justice to the story?
Okay, discuss away!
Comments
That sounds bloody awful and nothing I would EVER expect to see on what used to be my favorite show. Ugh . . . let's just hope Carver remembers this is Supernatural not Being Human.
Sounds to me more like writing anything, before writing nothing at all.
(Sorry gang, but that is just not what Supernatural is all about, for me)
I don't think there's NECESSARILY anything more to this than what we've already got.
Don's being alive ALREADY makes it "a love triangle of sorts". Nothing says they're expanding on this - they DO have to address his return in the next flashback, and I am holding to the idea that there's nothing more to it.. Sam's cozy little home isn't so cozy anymore. Hope they didn't get a huge mortgage!
On the other hand, Amelia may in fact be real, but Sam can still be mis-remembering a lot of this stuff.
Retreating to shallowland!
The problem is people needed to buy into Sam and Amelia's relationship and alot havent throwing a third party in is not really going to change that . I think Sam's problem will be a very human based one.
I know Kirsten's reputation with spoilers but I do believe with what they have been doing with Sam there is a element of truth to it but we shall see .
So why not use it in this case? Because all these flashbacks are subjective – each person is remembering what they think happened. So from a storytelling point I think that is why they have gone with that storytelling style. And it looks clunky because everyone has to stare off into space to show it is them thinking (yeah, it’s clunky).
Personally I am entertained by the idea that it all might be a storyline that Sam has invented in his head, from hearing soap operas on the tv while lying in a coma in a hospital bed (well it would be entertaining if it took a single episode to get there at least).
But there is another consideration, Sam’s FBs seem much more random than Deans – which seem to be more relevant to the current storyline and so they blend better – Sam just seems to fall into a daze anywhere, and he seems to be doing it more often. For example Sam’s first flashback, to his girlfriend(!) in the last episode, he was looking at a corpse when it hit - that might have been a reaction to something someone had just said, I don’t remember, but the visual was corpse = girlfriend/perf ect life flashback (that might be deliberate of course after all his ‘perfect life’ IS dead). Could it be that whatever trauma he has is getting worse for some reason instead of better?
It could just be that he is worried about Amelia and the husband for some reason. Don is going to turn out to be unpleasant I should think.
No, actually Dean said, it was the cheating husband living a lie and it came back, to bite him in the ass.
In the last episode it was blatantly obvious, but we would have to look at earlier episodes to see what the triggers were there.
I will have to sit down and write it all up ;)
If nothing else, I will be dizzy before ever getting in to all the theories.... I may have to lie down. (Move over, Sam.
But I really loved the exchange between the cop and Sam...
Cop: "So do you chase the crazy or does the crazy chase you?"
Sam: "Depends on the day"
That could really play into the theory that Sam is still hallucinating (whether or not Amelia is real).....
Dean's FBs have two advantages over Sam's. First, there is a real life or death struggle going on that blends in with the theme of the show. Second, Dean's FBs integrate better into the episode story. Eilf commented that Sam's flashbacks are more frequent and have random triggers, and that's also how it seems to me. That makes them disruptive to the flow of the episodes. Some of Sam's flashbacks are so disconnected that they feel like overlap from another show.
Dean's perception in FBs of Cas staying behind in Purgatory was incorrect, so it is quite possible that what Sam remembers is also in some ways incorrect. And his flashbacks remind me of Dean and Bobby's dreamworlds in Season 3, with their over-staturated colors. Dean even had a picnic with girlfriend scene in his dreamscape. Sam could be building pieces of past experience into an odd, comforting delusion.
However, in the first episode of the season he left a woman in bed and a dog to join Dean, and he is checking up on a woman through electronic monitoring. These make it seem as though Amelia is not entirely a hallucination (though I would be more than okay with it if she were).
I am not a fan of these "Lost" style FBs for Supernatural. I keep thinking of Season 4, when Sam was telling Dean the story of his time one Earth while Dean was in Hell. Those flashbacks had content, and said a lot about Sam. And that was only one episode. I don't feel like I've learned anything new about Sam in this series of FBs.
To me, there are a couple of successful constructs for use of flashback; the first is to begin in real time with a character in peril, then flashback to how the person came to be in peril and eventually have real time catch up to the flashback so that the narrative moves forward. Second the character accomplishes something and the flashback fills in how it was accomplished. Third, the flashback takes the place of a character monologe - where the character 'remembers' what happened and information is provided to the audience. In all cases, the flashback should inform the real time story and/or the character.
Obviously, Supernatural is not utilizing the first example at all. And more's the pity because I think the Purgatory sequences could have been effectively done that way. The Purgatory flashbacks are more along the lines of the second - Dean accomplished an exit from Purgatory: the flashback shows us how. Sam's flashbacks are clearly the third type, which, to me, is the weakest of the three as a narrative construct.
As for content, I don't think they're doing very well in this regard either. The Purgatory flashbacks worked better. When used, they had more connection to the current story, but still bogged the forward momentum down.
To me, the Sam flashbacks don't work at all. I get that Show is drawing a contrast between Dean's Purgatory and Sam's dollhouse, but it just Stops. The. Narrative. Dead. In. Its. Tracks everytime Sam drifts off.
The content of the Purgatory flashbacks is good, but I don't think that presenting it as a flashback was completely successful.
The content of the Sam flashbacks -- if I was watching a different show, it would be fine -- but since I'm not watching a different show -- its not fine. The story with Amelia pulls me out of the Supernatural universe as I ask myself WTF am I watching?
Long story short -- the flashbacks really aren't working for me and I hope we are done with them as of the Fall Finale.
I also hope that Amelia goes away with her not-dead hubby and we never, ever see or hear from her again. As I said earlier on another thread -- Amelia can go live next door to Lisa & Ben.
I will not be satisfied with the harlwquin-like drama that they cooked up for Sam's storyline. Having Sam not looking for Dean just to have a Days of Our Lives rip off is gonna piss me off.
Also, I'm a bit fed up with lots of shots of Sam looking off into the distance (very soap opera-like) to signal "I am having a flashback now". It's clunky and I don't think it fits with the style of acting that the Js have developed over their years as the brothers Winchester. I sometimes think that Jared is being asked to lay it on a bit thick when signalling an impending flashback, at times, he has a touch of the Joey Tribbiani "smell the fart" acting style about him (lighthearted comment folks, I'm just teasing
Jensen's flashback signalling scenes didn't seem as forced to me, or maybe he has more experience of that particular acting trick given that he worked on a soap opera for a number of years. Or it could just be a way to signal that Dean is integrating his memories, of the year in Purgatory, into his daily life more successfully than Sam. Perhaps Sam's memories are jarring and disconcerting Sam as much as they do the viewer. It's hard to tell though because we're given so little information regarding the inner emotional state of Sam this season
Dean´s is alot more straight forward and clear.
And i can very well imagine, and get a clear feeling, that it was a cleansing experience for him.
Throw out all the shit, that was holding you back, kind of thing.
Sam´s isn´t.
It´s muddled and twisted and layered and all kinds of...ugh...
Mushy...
and I think pretty much, that sums up their year apart pretty well.
Sam had no clear line of action (or line of thought), none whatsoever, and it let him adrift.
While Dean had anything but insecurities. Find Cas, Get to the portal, get out.
For Dean it´s a straight line again: this is his life, this is his calling, let´s go.
Sam, on the other hand does even have found solid ground yet.
I suppose that because we've seen Sam tell Dean, forcefully, that he knows what he wants and that his year away from hunting has helped him to realise it, I assumed that Sam was as emotionally settled and stable as the persona he was showing Dean. Your reading of things, that Sam is not clear on what he did during that year and on what he wants for his future, makes Sam's behaviour seem a little more intriguing.
Either in self defense, or to protect Dean.
It´s Sam... alright... a bit of both.
Letting Dean know, he´s not actually completely stable? With Dean fresh out of Purgatory... yeah... not bloody likely.
On the other hand, admitting, that you are swimming? With someone as battle ready as Dean at that moment?
Bad idea ^^
And Sam migth actually have wanted, exactly what he said.
Because it´s safe. It´s simple.
You don´t have to make alot of decision and nobody´s life depends on you.
If you are wounded and without orientation and kind of more than just a little helpless... wouldn´t that be exactly, what you would wish for?
Fortunately after last night's episode I think we're done with flashbacks since Cas is back for Dean and Sam is seeing Amelia again.
I was thinking about why I dislike the Sam/Amelia storyline today -- I've been thinking its mostly because its boring -- but its not because its dull -- I mean it is, especially compared to the action, suspense and horror -esque elements of SPN -- its because I'm pretty sure the romance won't work out, you know? So its kind of a pointless exercise to put poor Sammy through it. In fact, I don't want the romance to work out. And where usually in the romantic situation I'd be rooting for Sam & Amelia and enjoying the journey -- I just want it over -- rip the bandage off, lance the blister, get it done.
And on acompletely shallow note -- Sam's entire s/l is a 'love story' and he's not been shirtless once! What's the point of that!!!
First, all of Sam's FBs have been awkwardly placed thus far. They literally bring the show to a grinding halt and don't flow or mesh w/the rest of the episode. As many have stated, the show will be moving along and then suddenly Sam is having an Amelia FB, which really has nothing to do anything. It's awkward. I am not lying when I say my sister and I literally groaned each time we realized another Amelia FB was coming. A FB should further the story; so far, Sam's don't. That brings me to the second problem w/Sam's FBs.
Let's all be honest here . . . absolutely nothing is going on in Sam's FBs. That is a problem. I can't speak for anyone else, but I have been utterly bored by almost all of his FBs. This week's were the best of the lot, and that's b/c of Amelia's rude dad. He added another dynamic to Sam and Amelia who are pretty boring together. It doesn't help that JP and LB have ZERO chemistry. When we do get a FB, it's usually just another aspect of Sam's normal and ordinary (thus boring) life w/Amelia. And I don't say that to offend anyone who is enjoying the FBs, but my life certainly couldn't be a television show as my life is rather ordinary and, thankfully, boring.
I think that is the main reason many viewers are bored w/his FBs and just want to get to the next part of his story -whatever that story may be. Nothing much is happening w/Sam and Amelia. I don't really need to see how they met or how they broke up. Why is that important? Why do I care? It would have sufficed to simply say Sam had a relationship and leave it at that.
I know some feel Sam's time w/Amelia is telling them something about Sam, but I have to disagree. I'm not learning anything about Sam through this story and these FBs. Sam is not disclosing his thoughts or feelings to Amelia or anyone else. We're not getting any private moments w/him grieving or missing Dean. We just see her talking to him, and I'm not going to impute her feelings onto him. So far, the FBs just show Sam in a relationship. That's it. The Sam in the FBs is not even overwhelmingly sad, depressed, or lost. The writers keep writing lines that say Sam is those things (i.e., sad, depressed, lost) but they keep failing to back up their words w/actual scenes showing Sam being sad, depressed, and lost. Sam seems fine to me in the FBs. In fact, Amelia seems fine to me as well. A little bitchy and offputting, but definitely not a "mess" like she described.
Because his story is coming off as wholly normal, it feels really misplaced on this show about the supernatural. As I've stated elsewhere, unless there is a twist to this story, then this will have been a pointless effort, IMO. I already knew Sam could have normal and be in a relationship. He did that in college and with Jessica despite Carver's retelling of the past. Someone said this story "humanizes" Sam . . . . well, Sam was already human to me. This story does absolutely nothing, IMO, for his development.
Finally, no matter what angle Sam's story takes - real or imagined - the writing for him hasn't been very good so far. IMO, there haven't been enough hints/clues if Sam has imagined a life w/Amelia. We're at the mid-season point, so we should have a clearer idea of what is going on w/Sam. And if Sam's time w/Amelia has been completely normal w/no supernatural influence, they have failed at thoroughly explaining how Sam went from demanding that Crowley tell him where Dean was to this guy who just "ran." Huh? I can buy life being too much for Sam to handle BUT they have to tell a story first. Having Sam make vague comments is not, IMO, a story.
Sam can see now that even if he was not in Amelia's life, her husband would return eventually. There was no need for Sam in Amelia's life. Sam is expendable, a surplus that can come and go without disrupting nature. Without Sam looking, Dean will be back eventually. So, there's no need for Sam in this world. He has no place now that Dean has a better brother than him. Why don't Sam just die and the world will be better of without him meddling things and making it worse.
If Sam choose to look for Dean then things will be better.
1) It will strengthen the bond between the brothers
2) Spare Amelia more harlequin drama in her life
3) Probably not hitting the dog
See, things are already a mess because of Sam's false choice in his year off. Again, they make Sam choosing a false choice like S4.
Sorry. That's just what I see the writers are trying to say here.
There's no need for him to be around anymore. We don't see his reason to not look for Dean. And now that Dean seems to have a better brother then he doesn't need Sam and Sam doesn't seem to need Dean because as he said in Heartache, seems to me that Sam would prefer to be at another place then in the car beside his brother.
Don's back (if he and his wife really exist) so, Amelia will not need him anymore and she shouldn't need Sam because she has a husband to tend too.
No one need Sam. It won't make any different if Sam did look for Dean because Dean got out by his own in the end. It won't make any difference if Sam didn't start a relationship with Amelia because her husband would come back by his own. anyway.
So, everything that Sam did and do this season is nothing but messing other people's life. If you take Sam out of the equation, things will go just as well. Just as if he doesn't exist. He's been trying so hard to insert his own life into other people's life, like Amelia's, Dean's, Kevin's. But the truth is they don't need him.
By the way, Kevin did okay during Sam's year off.
So, what the writer do right now is eliminating Sam's purpose to exist in the world.
It's canon now that Roman Enterprises is done for. (Thank you suicide man).... So here's my new thoughts....
After Dean and Cas disappeared, and Crowley took off with Kevin, Sam looked around. Hmmm. No Dean anywhere...
Sam finishes his appointed task, ie blowing up the lab... Goes and gets Baby, and waits for Dean/Cas.... They're a no show, so he starts finding all the remaining Levis... to kill them all, of course, but also to ask what they know about what happened. Over and over he hears them say that Dean was still in the lab when it blew up...
Eventually, Sam believes them, and thinking, therefore, that HE ACTUALLY KILLED HIS OWN BROTHER, he decides it's too much, tries to kill himself, and hits a dog.....
Yes, I know, lots of holes, but it's a THEORY!!
What do ya think? Possible?
It would HAVE to be something huge for my Sammy to move on...
....oh lord, maybe on top of the not-dead-husban d soap opera trope we have the protagonist-has -lost-his-memor y one.
And of course he doesn't feel right telling Dean that. The guy's just back from a year in Purgatory and you're going to tell him... well, I tried to kill myself when I thought you died but... really... I'm feeling much better now (LOL - sigh). But he also doesn't feel right lying to Dean or he just doesn't have the strength and confidence to come up with a good lie and never slip up. So... he just says ... nothing.
When Dean almost doed in Faith Sam tried something a bit magical, despite his training. He got Dean back and his innocence supposedly was unscathed by his naivete. Eh... but when Dean almost died at the end of the season, Sam seemed prepared to go that route again. So John headed Sam off at the pass by making his deal. The next time Sam was in danger of losing Dean, he started going darkside. In the end, he failed to save Dean so he tried making a deal. Once again, he was blocked, this time because the CRD wouldn't deal. So Sam really went darkside. This prompted another magical intervaention.. . in the form of Castiel. But Sam was so messed up by then that it almost didn't matter. Sam opts for a showdown with Lilith. I wonder if he hoped he would die too? He didn't want to "be doing this" when he got old (magician ep.), so why get old? He was quick to get on board with Anna's idea of scattering him around the universe and then he made Dean promise not to try to spring him if he dragged Lucifer into The Cage.
So... yeah... I'd definitely say if the writers decided to take Sam down a suicidal path in the "lost year", they could point to stuff that wouldn't suggest it was wholly out of character. Heck... forgetting for the moment the oddity that Dean came back to Sam's and Jessica's for some reason that has never been made clear... Dean had to drag Sam out, huh? If Dean hadn't shown up, is it possible Sam would just stayed there and died along with Jess?
My brain has short-circuited and somehow end up with this : Quote:Let's turn around the perspective shall we. Earlier in the episode Dean said to Cas, "Listen to Sam" and while Sam gives speech to Fred Cas listens. Then he realize that he can't run but Naomi sabotage his intent to return to heaven. What if this also happens to Sam.
Imagine Sam who has decided early on that he can't run, he needs to look for Dean, then somehow his intent is averted over and over again by other forces, just like what Naomi do to Cas. What if what happens to Cas right now has happened to Sam a year ago.
Example :
"The rules are simple, don't take a joint from a guy named Don..."
Reveal : It had happened before with Sam by taking a 'joint' from supposedly dead Don
Dean taking two beer bottles and opens it and giving it to Sam. Weirdly it happen present time, why would this be called remembering?
Reveal : It happened before with Amelia's dad.
Dean's back from war-like zone Purgatory. Dean's supposed to be dead.
Reveal : It happened before with Don coming back from war. He was supposed to be back.
Sam's fixing the vents and fan
Reveal : It happened before that Sam has to fix the vents and fan of the motel.
Could be that we should see these FB as not a memory but if we place ourselves in Sam's place a year ago. These FBs are foreshadowing things that's gonna happen in future. Sam's not walking the memory lane but having a deja vu experience.
I had a dream of visiting some place that I have never visited before but since it was a dream I ignored it. Then, few weeks later I went to some place that looks exactly like in my dream. OMG I've been here before, in my dream.
Edit to add because I am on a roll :
This also explain why Sam knows that Dean's gonna visit Rufus' cabin. This also explain Sam's dialogue : "I don't have to Dean, I know it's you."
This also explain why Sam suddenly knows how to use the inverted exorcism because he was prepared before.
This also explain why Sam's so adamant to ask Kevin where is the tablet. Just like he knew before about it.
Also explain why Sam so concerns about Cas the first time he meet Dean because he has seen the sign about it before.
The FB is not merely a flashback but a clue for Sam.
Could it be that Sam's psychic Vision is coming back?
(maybe I should post this on the Let's discuss Sam's Flashback thread)
I mean, they are certainly messing with Castiel....why not Dean and Sam, too?
Okay, look, I've really liked the season so far. I've been really interested in the flashbacks (but I admit mostly because Jared looks so effing good in them), and it won't even bother me if Amelia is real, but I don't want a love triangle of sorts b/w Sam, Don and Amelia- NO.
Please show, NOOOO.
Panicking done.
I'm firmly on the Amelia-is-real side. I just can't imagine the show re-explaining all the FBs to fit it into the dream theory, and I can't imagine why so much time would be spent on the FBs if they were all in Sam's head anyway. There are a few wrenches in this theory as well- the "don't take a joint from Don" being one of them, too much coincidence, Dean?- but right now, I'm operating on the Amelia-is-real logic. Memory is fallible and I think Sam's FBs are a little psychedelic, a little distorted to be more dreamy and romantic, but real.
(I think the lighting is a trick btw, to differentiate b/w reality and the flashbacks)
My post Hunteri Heroici theory is that Don is some angel/demon plant, obviously brought back to mess with Sam, and the resulting emotional tug-of-war led him to leave.
Which still doesn't explain how he conveniently left EXACTLY around the time Dean came back from Purgatory.
(BTW, did Roman Industries literally "crash and burn"?)
To me one thing seems really weird: why is Sam going by his real name with Amelia? Wasn't the name splashed all over newspapers in Slash Fiction?
Regarding Dean and Benny: someone told Benny how to find the portal. The CIAngels? If so, why did they want to get Dean out? And anyway, how did dead Benny know where his bones were buried? Last I checked, he didn't even see his girlfriend being turned, so HOW? I'm guessing whoever told him about the portal also told him about his bones. So, like a payment. Get Dean to the portal, win his trust, get yourself out.
Looking at it that way: Someone wanted Dean and Cas out of Purgatory, someone wanted Sam alive and whole (because, to quote TPTB he really did meet Amelia under "bizarre" circumstances- and every single FB of his screams COINCIDENCE! BIZARRE PARALLELS! PSYCHOTHERAPY 101!) ---but back in the hunt the MOMENT Dean got back -----(come on, 365 days and what are the odds that Sam goes to the cabin just a day or something after Dean gets back?)----and the Don thing is looking very suspicious, and so is Cas's meetings with Naomi. I'm starting to wonder if everything is interconnected and if the boys are chessboard pawns. Again.
Oh, I'd love it if it turned out that Sam/Amelia, Dean/Benny, Cas/Naomi are all interconnected and not just separate characters revolving around each of the 3 main characters' separate universes.
Weird paranoid theories?
C'mon!
I love to
(Apologies, this is ridiculously long)
What if when the lab exploded everyone went to purgatory? What if the 'real world' they have all been in for the last few weeks is not real at all - but not real for everyone, not just Sam.
Maybe everybody is in Purgatory - just initially everyone's purgatory was different:
Dean gets fighting that can't be escaped and guilt that can - maybe there is more to life than killing things.
Sam gets a perfect existence - that can't be the perfect world he imagined in his head because nothing ever is, so deal with what's in front of you and live this life.
Cas gets a place where he can atone for his guilt and he doesn't want to leave.
Kevin's not really done anything to atone for so he has his mom to protect him.
Benny is a vampire who actually was in purgatory all along (see I can even include him in this) his reward of freedom was to lead Dean out of his personal purgatory to reconnect with Sam.
The problem all along has been that Sam's behavior seems wrong and his FB's seem fake. We can't tell if Dean's are because who knows what Purgatory should be like? But if it turns out that only Sam is living in a dream world then everything else that has happened has not happened to Dean, Cas and Kevin. However if they are all being manipulated in purgatory then it is happening to all of them.
The purgatory storyline is told from the point of view of the people having 'flashbacks' - Sam and Dean (and Cas, sort of, I will get to that) so everyone else is either a construct to manipulate them or a real person being manipulated to make them do what is required (likely Kevin is a real person because he was the only other person in the lab at the explosion)
This could account for all sorts of things that have happened that are not the standard way things happen on SPN:
Sam's behavior.
Why he apparently had no help and no one to turn to and yet suddenly now there are people all over who can help (like Garth).
Some of the more dream-like occurrences in the FBs.
Dean blaming Sam for things supposedly forgiven.
Excessive numbers of familiar faces in different roles.
Killing humans just because they are bad.
Allowing supernatural creatures to live (and not investigating) just because they haven't done anything yet.
Random things that have happened that don't usually happen in SPN (fill in the blank here)
How Mrs Tran is able to put a demon twice her size in the trunk of her car
Why Crowley has red eyes and Mrs Tran spoke with Crowley's voice.
Crazy lighting and Sam and Dean looking way too colorful (sorry, shallow, miss season 1-6 coloring)
How they get away with 'Crosby, Stills and Nash'
How Sam hasn't been arrested yet for mass murder and credit card fraud.
The reason for the flashbacks.
How Benny could be anything other than the most vegetarian vampire in the world - because his actions are not canon, they are Dean's perception.
Why Kevin doesn't have a guardian archangel
Why Castiel has new powers.
But what about the flashbacks?
These are there to reinforce the story the person manipulating them is trying to sell. The story setup was over a 'year' to allow the fake memories to be completely embedded before they are all brought back together.
Whenever Sam might begin to realize his behavior was not normal regarding Dean and purgatory he gets hauled into a dream and it is reinforced that he couldn't do it - he ran - this reinforces his reluctance to discuss his year with Dean. And his disconnection with events so far is because subconsciously he is fighting the story he knows isn't true.
Dean gets pulled into FB that cause him to be angry with Sam and not want to discuss it either (he hit a dog and met a girl).
Cas is an angel so his 'flashbacks' are different - he has to be brought into heaven and have the 'story' reinforced in person.
So who is puling the strings? Crowley, working with the CIAngels.
What is the point? The supernatural beings want a set of tablets - which are for humans so maybe only humans can find them. And the best way to find them is to set up a control world where they give the people all the information they have and see what the humans do with it. There is only 1 tablet available at the moment so that is what they use. Maybe the tablet got 'broken' because there is something in the other half that they don't want Kevin to know about.
(if you made it to here thank you for coming on this flight of fantasy with me :D)
erm... someone said, she knew only two person, who wore a jacket with a collar like this.
Dean and John .. well, and perhaps Crowley.
But (here it comes, sue me) Adam did as well. He wore one of Dean's old jackets, when he fell into the pit.
I went and watched again- the guy watching Sam is wearing a turned up collar, cape-like thing or a very large, loose-ish jacket. You know what I thought immediately?Â
Dracula.Â
You know where that led me? Benny.
I'll even throw in a theory-supporti ng quote. In the premiere, in the motel, when Sam asks Dean what Purgatory was like, he says it was "pure". Later, over the phone, Benny says the same thing. "You were right, brother. Purgatory was pure." I speculated this right after the premiere and then forgot that theory until now, now that I'm trying to connect everyone.
(phone call reminds me- why was Benny by a grave? And the dialogue he says "Choices, there are so many choices" WTH? Am I missing some kind of reference or is it weird he was hanging out at a burial? At that time we didn't know Benny was a veggie vamp, I had kinda assumed that he'd probably killed someone! Now it just looks weird to me. And, if you notice, he's wearing a collared, enormous jacket in that scene)
And you know who else other than Sam stepped away from the "family business" because he had "found something"? Benny. His wording in that post-blood-slur ping-in-the-Imp ala conversation is all skewed and parallels Sam.
It will pick up the one line we've all been spouting along with Dean: "Why didn't you look for me when I was in Purgatory?" and turn it on its head. Because Sam was there, too. He just perceived Purgatory differently. Like Heaven was different for the two of them in DSotM. Dean has the literal version, Sam gets a different version where he is all alone (which is his worst hell) Dean allies with Benny and Cas, Sam does so with Amelia.Â
Now I don't think the show is headed there: we're getting the real world now IMHO, and Naomi suggested "an incursion of angels" went to retrieve Cas from Purgatory, so it's looking very much like one place, not a layered multiplanar dimension like heaven, but I'd still love to fantasise this! Maybe even write fan fiction. Great idea!
Yet, If Dean and Sam were in Heaven together why don't they in Purgatory?
I am on the opinion that with a bond that strong like they have, they will find each other again even in Purgatory. The fact that Dean is with Cas versus Sam all alone leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I admit I never a fan of Destiel because I've watched supernatural ever since the pilot first aired in my country and been fond of the two brother's strong bond way before Cas even showed up until S4.
Your theory is good but the way the player is placed is not to my liking. Even in Zachariah's made up world Sam and Dean were able to find their way to each other. Let alone Heaven.
Dean is communicating with Cas because they have issues to solve between them.
It could be that a major point of the last episode is that Cas takes things at face value - he is a poor detective because he is not intuitive or suspicious. It is a good way to keep Dean from getting suspicious because he and Sam are used to Cas having an extra level of knowledge that they don't. And this time Cas doesn't have that knowledge.
TBH I think my theory requires too many leaps of faith to be the solution
I love your Sam and real idea by the way!
out of all the theories out there....this one is literally my favorite.
i know something is up with this show and i hope it's your theory. because i think it's perfectly logical and would make for a hell of a season.
Darya, I am not sure if you are talking to me about the fanfics? But if so I would love to see what you do
 Anyone else want to volunteer, though?Â
Guys! And they say we, women, are complicated...
Guys!
Just... GUYS!
Honestly....
Either the writers are just toying with us with massive shout outs or...
I just watched Blood Brother again (absolutely stunning episode by the way... one of my favorites)
Benny... as in Benjamin.
Benjamin Isaac Braeden anyone?
And the Old Man calls him his wayward son.
Amelia (or as her Father calls her Ame)
Amy?
Don?
Dean?
WTF?!
And what I especially like, are how the flashbacks are both showing the turning point moment for both Sam and Dean.
Dean´s, when Benny saves Cas and Sam's, when he says to Amelia, that she has no one and connects with her.
Btw...I love how the memory of Amelia saying "And then it was gone.." sends Sam in free falling panic for Dean.
Blood Brother is Dean's and Benny´s episode, while Hunteri Heroici is Sam´s and Cas´
Kind of like a mirroing pair.
WHat I would love to see, is how Cas and Benny react to each other in real time.
I´m no longer really sure, if Sam´s FBs are memorys or some kind of constructed reality... but I honestly don´t care.
At first it´s confusing, but when it all comes together... you can FEEL his confusion, his helplessness and how lost he is.
Gosh, it´s so heartbreaking.
ANd now, his brother is back and they can´t seem to connect to each other.
Samandriel = Sam-and-riel = Sam and real?
Could he be the one that tampered with Sam's perception?
Crowley said that he barely scratch the surface with Sam-and-riel. (barely scratch the surface with Sam's reality perception)
And man, isn´t that little Angel cute?
A crying Angel? waaaaaaaah!
Can we please keep him?
Erm.. rescue him and keep him?
Along with Adam please.
So, part of my looking for secret story clues involves me invoking the old hunter standby of anagramming. And I noticed I could get a Sam & a Dean out of your angel. And THEN I realized the Riz&Isles ep gave me something to do with the remaining letters. Apparently LARPing types will use IRL as shorthand for In Real Life.
So Samandriel anagrams to "Sam, Dean, IRL"
Samandriel = Sam & Dean In Real Life {LOL}
And that´s just weird!
That being said, the one thing that still has me curious is who was watching Sam at the beginning. With Don coming back from the dead - and the "rumor" of a love triangle *shudders - is it possible that it could be Don watching the house and maybe the love triangle is one of the reasons Sam left? To me, it doesn't seem like Sam would want to deal with the drama and would cut his losses and leave. That, or Sam suspects that Don's returning is suspicious and he's taking off to look into it. What better place to do that then Rufus' cabin. Although, as someone else pointed out, the timing of Sam and Dean both showing up at the cabin at the same time is suspicious, too.
Ugh, so much to think about. My head just wants to shut down. :)
Welcome to the madhouse that is season 8 speculation!
I'm with you on the shuddering at the love triangle thing. Hope they don't decide to go there!
Romance + drama + Supernatural = NOT Supernatural (unless there's a very gruesome death
It´s quite funny, that I don´t like the myth episodes as much, but love the monster of the week stuff for the underlying character interactions.
Heartache was a good episode, not really more, but it was good, Bitten was great, even without the character interaction, but important nonetheless, because Dean decided to let the girl go and I love the way it was filmed.
I was sucked right in and it didn´t let me go again.
And Blood Brother and Southern Comfort were flat out just great!
The moment I stopped to desperately look for the connection between Sam and Dean, it was suddenly there.
Still strained, yes, but all of a sudden, they made sense and it worked. Even with the little jabs and the tension, but below, there was this feeling "still brothers, still caring"
And quotes likes "... and I can´t help asking myself: When is decapitation not my thing?"
In my opinion, we all are a) on withdrawl from brotherly moments (a complete season without? Puhleeez?!) and some good, heartfelt, beautiful tears and b) all still burned by season 7.
Half of the bitterness this season feels like it had to do more with Season 7. I for one don't think the brotherly bond is missing- except for Heartache, it's shown up in basically every episode. Even in Bitten I thought it was sweet how Sam assured Dean he didn't say awesome that much. Southern Comfort had the blowout, yes, but that read more like the sibling fight and less like a broken bond. With Blood Brother, we saw that phone conversation, Dean deciding to call Sam anyway, and Sam panicking like crazy in the car. I don't think I need to mention A Little Slice of Kevin, and they worked together so well in Hunteri Heroici.
Okay, Sam didn't look for Dean. Right now it seems OOC. But it also doesn't seem like he was all that happy with Amelia, either, as opposed to what he was suggesting in Heartache. Whether it is real or not or whether there is a twist or not, I think this season is addressing a core issue with Sam. It's as he says: take away the graffiti and we're looking at someone who never wanted to hunt, who was only in the business out of revenge or fate. I think it is important for Sam to realise, to be clear and fair to his conscious and come to the conclusion that this is the life where he belongs. It seems to me to be about "I have to hunt with Dean" versus "I want to hunt with Dean".Â
So I'm putting away the "But...but how could he not look for Dean!" away until I have a better answer, and looking at it this way. This is Sam coming to terms with who he is. Dean has always known himself pretty well, that he WANTS to hunt with Sam by his side. With Sam it's always been more of an "I have to because..." that looks like it might change. The speech in Hunteri Heroici is the key.Â
I get that some people think its all character assassination this season, and that's okay, it's your viewpoint. But I'm pretty sure no writer wakes up and says "Let's ruin this character, look how fun, Whee!" unless said character is Voldemort. Mid season writer-attack is seriously unwarranted. Writers are generally very much into 'let's mislead the readers/watchers'.Â
I admit it's easy to feel this way post Season 7 but the writing team seems so much better this season. Look at Adam Glass, Andrew Dabb and the Buckner/Ross-Le mming team. They've all delivered their best material this season.Â
I'm a Sam girl too. Always have been, always will be. I hated Amelia at first, but I don't see any reason to continue hating her. I positively liked her in HH. She admits she was a "hot mess" when she gave him the dog, so okay, she made a mistake. He started the frigging apocalypse. Shit happens.
I sincerely like Amelia. She isn´t a hot love, pretty girl.
She´s real, she´s snarky, she´s hurt. But she´s genuine.
As for Sam not looking for Dean... Thanks, Crowley...
Thank you for leading a broken and wounded man down the path to believing his brother is dead.
Thanks for not telling him, where Dean was, though you so totally knew.
Thanks for hurting Sam so fucking much!
All the while knowing, what it would do to him.
Just, so, he wouldn´t come after you. Just to get them off your back, because you know, alone, they´re only half as dangerous.
Crowley knows very much exactly, what he needs to say to Sam, to make him break completely.
With lingering mental issues, losing Dean (again) AND Cas, so close after losing Bobby...
Meg gone. The one person who could and would help him to get leverage against Crowley to tell him, where his brother ist.
Kevin gone and no way to go against Croley alone?
Honestly... what was he supposed to do?
Well.. he could have tried to find the Alpha Vamp, if he had suspected, Dean was in Purgatory and not just... well... dead... after one of the biggest monsters in existence exploded right next to him.
Alone....
Alpha Vamp....
Perhaps not the best idea....
But all I get from Sam, is just... that he is so god damn tired....
Dealing with Lucifer, dealing with the memories, dealing with Bobbies death... dealing with Dean´s depression...
There just was nothing left, to keep him going anymore.
He was just so tired of it all.
Great... And now I want to cry again -.-
So, I have another theory. Henry did a time hope to hide a tablet. A demon is after him. The angels of course want the tablet too but instead of following him time traveling through portal, they have better plan. Since they knew where he would land they wait for him.
That's why Naomi set up things with Cas and the brothers because she is sure that Henry will be in contact with them in present day. She's waiting for it to happen in order to intercept him.
Then, the shadowy figure outside the house could very well be Henry Winchester, father of John Winchester.
I would so love for the boys, to finally have some dunno... "good" relatives.
Just, dear Chuck, not another Samuel.
When Sam and Amella first start being friendlier, he says something to her about her being all alone and not having anyone. But she has a father! And a cranky, but supportive one who she clearly has a loving relationship with (favorite childhood dishes, stories about going to dance recitals) I can't square that with the premise as it was set up.
This is the kind of stuff that drives me nuts. If it is not on purpose then it is very inconsistent writing. What do you all think?
Quote:I totally don't care. She has her husband.
Can't really compare Dean with her, to me Dean worth a thousand of Amelia and that's just on Friday.
If I want to compare it'll be like this :
Dean = big brother, substitute father/mother for 30 years history or live and death, sold his soul for Sam, stone number one when Sam's on the brink of crazy.
Amelia = no one, less than a year of confusion and messed up, sold her soul? someone who relegates an injured dog to a drifter where she herself choose to run?, she's not anyone's stone as she's a drifting wood on the ocean.
I am really sorry for sounding pissed but I can't really accept the comparison that if Sam didn't look for Dean then it equates to not looking after Amelia. Sam should've looked for Dean with or without Amelia. The problem about Sam didn't look for Dean shouldn't have anything to do with Amelia, she's a lose variable, a wild card, shouldn't even enter the equation. It was all in Sam's choice and Sam has chosen a poor choice. The Sam Winchester that I know is not weak. He's withstand Lucifer's hallucination, withstand Lucifer's possession, Coming out of a comma on his own. Smart, strong and resourceful. I just don't understand why the writer insist him to be weak when he was supposed to be strong. he held on the Trickster's manipulation and living 100 times of Dean's death and still held on 6 months afterwards.
Quote:I admit this is also inconsistent. But from what I know, the last time a dog was in the car, the owner was a psycho killer.
As for what it might mean, I have no good ideas because they aren't consistent in how the actors are being used i.e. if they only appeared in flashbacks then we could speculate that they are images taken from Sam's mind and they show he's imagining things about his year with Amelia. However, the actors appear in both flashbacks and in the 'real' world, so I'm not sure that this theory would hold any water.
i'm starting to get that same feeling i had in s4. angels man. i think they are the ones manipulating everyone.
so if you're ready for another off the wall theory, i have one.
in s4 it felt like the angels and demons were working together even if they didn't really tell ea. other they were working together.
what i mean is, the demons put dean in hell and tried to break him. the angels could've gotten dean out at any time but they waited for dean to break the seal.
while dean was in hell, sam, broken and suicidal joins up with ruby, as she saves his life. the angels, aware of what ruby was up to, lets it happen. the angels wanted it that way.
so here we are again. only this time dean is in purgatory. now it seems, since benny tells dean about the window out, that angels could've saved dean at any time. but they waited.
why did the angels need dean in purgatory for a whole year? did they want dean to do something while in purgatory the same way they wanted him to break in hell?
where do you suppose angels go when they die? didn't look like they were in heaven? do you think it's possible in the spn world that angels can go to purgatory?
i was thinking that what if that's where they go. that would mean gabriel/trickst er is in purgatory. suppose benny isn't a vampire. suppose benny is the trickster/gabri el. gabriel does what he's told and he gets out of purgatory.
i say this because i find it very ooc that dean hasn't questioned benny on who told him about the portal.
dean just lets a vampire loose on society without even checking up on him to make sure he isn't killing.
dean tells sam that benny is more of a brother than he's ever been. totally erasing a lifetime with sam for a year with a vampire.
dean doesn't realize that benny befriended him out of nowhere so he can get a ride out of purgatory.
dean keeps repeating over and over like a mantra that benny hasn't let him down.
benny keeps calling dean brother instead of by his name.
other than cas, what other angel would know more about sam and dean and how they relate to ea. other. who else would know what to say to manipulate dean. especially is dean was oh, possessed by a specter.
i just feel like the angels? for some reason are trying to keep the boys apart. out of sync with ea. other. distracted to what's going on. neither boy as asked the other about their year apart. they did this in s4 and that's when the boys had that rift.
i'm not sure what the real deal with sam is, i'm very confused. all i'm sure of it that amelia and sam have absolutely no passion. i don't even feel like sam likes her. and in not one flashback have we really learned anything about sam. she's the one who does all the talking. sam's fbs, i feel like sam feels disconnected.
this season feels very surreal to me. i feel like the boys are puppets and someone is pulling their strings.
One more thing. Why would they made Cas asked a question, "When you killed monster in monster's heaven, where would they go?"
If they aren't prepared to answer that question, why would they throw it there? Suspicious.
Also Benny was adamant to only bring Dean out and not Cas. Could be the one who told Benny about the portal is not the angels.
I have a feeling that there is still one more player that's under the cloak. We have Angels, Demons, Alpha Vamp, Prophet, who else? Could be a new player in Supernatural world that masterminded everything.
here as I am completely confused!
Probably not, but my brainmeats thinks it would make sense as to why Sam would distort the relationship in his memory.
so here goes::
what if amelia is not the real amelia? what if the amelia we've been seeing is one of crowley's cronies, keeping sam busy so he doesn't go off looking for kevin or the tablet. whoever was watching sam just could've been keeping tabs. maybe it was an angel or cas even, biding their time for when they were ready, for when dean got out of purgatory. i still think the angels left dean there for a specific reason.
maybe crowley killed the real amelia. we don't know the chronology of what's going on, so maybe the first eppy sam was just making one of his usual trips to the cabin. maybe that wasn't the night he left for good.
in an upcoming eppy we are supposed to have the fb when don comes back. perhaps he was dead and the angels resurrected him to get sam back in the game. so what if don, who was never expected to return, shows up and amelia isn't his amelia....that would make for a supernatural triangle. sam gets rid of the fake amelia or crowley rescues her. that would explain, there was a girl and then there wasn't.
sam looking the real amelia up on the computer could've just been him curious as to what the real amelia may have looked like, where she really came from....
that's it...my last off the wall theory...i'm done.
I just don't see anything else to it. It just seems like what it appears -- Sam hit a dog, met a girl and had a relationship that was derailed when her husband came home.
And apparently Amelia 'saved him.' I really don't like that.
Yuck. But it would be OK if it would just be over already!
I really just wish that the S/L was done this episode instead of dragging into the next. I don't want to see Amelia any more. I don't care what she says to Sam - I just want it done. I said from the beginning that one of the MANY reasons that I didn't want a romantic relationship for Sam is because it would end badly for him. And while Amelia's not burning on the ceiling and wracking him with guilt -- its still bad.
I don't mind the boys being at odds -- for me its a hurts-so-good kinda thing -- but Benny is far more instrumental than Amelia in creating that tension. At this point, I feel like the whole relationship existed simply to create someplace Dean could send Sam off to.
Jared's doing such a good job - he's wonderful - I wish I liked the material he's been given better.
I dislike the idea that Amelia 'saved' him too, I honestly think that Sam is strong enough to have saved himself given the other things he's managed to extricate himself from in the past. Plus, as you say, Sam's Black Widow (or "penis of death" as I call it in humorous moments) effect on the women he has relationships with has been done LOTS and I've seen enough of Sam angsting over the negative role he played in a woman's life. If the writers would just give up on the idea of romantic storylines for the Winchester men, I'd be a very happy bunny. I'm not watching SPN for the romance, I'm watching it for the sci-fi and the Js' acting.
I don't mind the brothers being at odds, from time to time, if I can have a reasonable expectation of the rift being repaired at some point. But the brothers have been at odds, on fundamental reasons, for a large part of the seasons since S4 and it's getting tiresome (for me). I don't need them to be 100% in agreement on everything; I can cope with arguments and disagreements, but I hate the fact that we are being told that Sam and Dean don't trust each other anymore - that attacks the fundamental core of why I watch the show
Personally, I think the fact that Dean is so wounded by Sam that he can't let it go is just more evidence that Sam is the major relationship for him. He can forgive Cas easier because the hurt didn't go as deep. He can trust Benny because its been a short and ideal(for Dean, the soldier) relationship so far.
But Amelia has to go.