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By suggestion, I'm opening up a new topic about Sam.  In "Southern Comfort," he told Amelia that he lost his brother Dean a few months back.  Since we know from his rant at Dean that he put roots up in Texas afterward and lived with Amelia, what do you think he did in those few months after the events of "Survival of The Fittest?"

Here's what he told Amelia:  "I lost my brother, Dean, a few months ago. It felt like my world imploded and it came raining down on me and I ran."  

So what do you think happened to Sam?  Are we to just accept what he told Dean, "I fixed the Impala and drove," or is he not telling Dean (or anyone) everything?  

Or, to add another dimension, what do you think he should have done after Dean disappeared?  Any fanwanks out there?  All purely speculative, but fair game of "Let's Discuss."

This is a free form discussion and not subject to our new commenting policy, but please follow the WFB core rules.  

Happy discussing!


Moon River
# Moon River 2012-11-11 22:08
I'd like to know how Sam got the car out of that sign first off, and if he got caught in the lab explosion at all. Sam being injured, waking up in the hospital, and then getting locked in the mental health ward would be awesome. But I doubt this show would do anything that awesome with Sam, so I have no idea.

I'd like to find out that, after Sam recovered from his injuries and escaped the ward, because he still has problems from being in the Cage, that he did check out the possibility that Dean got sucked into Purgatory first thing, but somehow his conclusions led him to believe that Dean had actually died rather than any suckage occurring. Maybe this could hang on the theory that humans aren't supposed to be in Purgatory therefore leading Sam to believe Dean couldn't have gone in there with Dick. Or, perhaps Sam had some way of letting Dean escape on his own, via the Alpha Vamp contacting a vampire inside Purgatory and telling him that Dean was the way out of there. The vamp (Benny) then lets Dean know that Dean is his own ticket out of there.

Personally, I'd like to find out anything other than what we've been told by everyone so far. It turns out Sera Gamble was planning on having Sam save Dean from Purgatory. She left and this crap is what we've gotten instead. I could cry. I had so much hope for Jeremy Carver, but now I don't know what to think of him for coming up with this out of character bizarro set up that is so cruel and under handed to Sam's character. *weeps*

I hope we get more than what's been told to us so far, I really really do.

The only other option is really exploring Sam's insanity issues, which would be great after the massive let down concerning those last season. And for which let down, this show shall remain forever unforgiven.
# etheldred 2012-11-11 22:20
I'd like to know how Sam got the car out of that sign first off
I know, right? Wouldn't he need equipment? Wouldn't there be stray demons/Leviatha ns wandering around there? Sadly, I think this is one question that will never be answered for us.

Truth to tell, I would not be surprised if we never saw a flashback earlier than the hitting the dog one at all, or learned any more than we already know about that time.
# st50 2012-11-11 23:26

Truth to tell, I would not be surprised if we never saw a flashback earlier than the hitting the dog one at all, or learned any more than we already know about that time.
That is my fear, also, etheldred. Hoping we're both wrong.
# lala2 2012-11-12 00:09
I agree! I think it is highly doubtful that we will ever learn what happened after Dean disappeared. I think we're supposed to be satisfied knowing Sam just drove around aimlessly for months until he hit a dog and met the wonderful (I'm being sarcastic) Amelia!
Fedelynn M. Jemena
# Fedelynn M. Jemena 2012-11-12 03:28
I thought the same as Moon RIver. Maybe Sam spent some time in a mental health facility to recover from trauma or PTSD.

I also have this weird feeling that Sam may have made a deal again to get Dean out.

ANd, who was that silhouetted guy watching Sam leave Amelia's place? COuld it be Dean?
# Amy 2012-11-12 12:32
Personally I think it was a crew member who accidently got caught on tape and they didn't realize it until they saw the finished product.
*is 3/4 serious*
# st50 2012-11-12 13:50
*is 3/4 serious* You may be right. lol
# st50 2012-11-11 22:28
They really needed to explore the mental health issues with Sam prior to the "miracle cure" by Cas, imo.

As someone mentioned elsewhere, these things don't go away overnight and without extensive counselling and/or medication. A few months, and he's hit bottom, bounced back, and is living a normal life? Doesn't play, in my mind....How do they realistically deal with that, and still have Sam on the road, hunting as he is at this point. Could've been a great plot - if handled well, but I think that ship has sailed, unfortunately.

I would like to see Sam have some serious issues with Deans disappearance though... Something to engage the viewers more than "my world imploded and I ran"... What does that mean, exactly? What does that look like?

Unfortunately (I'm using that word a lot this season, sorry) I just don't see what more they can do. They've got a few months to address, prior to hitting the dog. But will they really? He's said he fixed the impala and drove.... I have a sinking feeling that that's all we'll ever know.

What else could he do, now, that would be enough to satisfy me - or other fans who have trouble with this scenario? Unless he has made some deal, I can't imagine that a couple of months of searching would be enough for the previous OCD character of Sam to say 'hey, I guess there is no way to save Dean, so I'm going to take care of his car and this dog I hurt, instead".

I can't see a way out of this. But that's why I'm not a writer. I sincerely hope Carver has some plan - not some band-aid wave to the fans that isn't fully and completely convincing of how Sam got to the point where we've seen.
Perceptions, right? We'll see.
# Grace232 2012-11-11 23:05
I do not believe they needed to explore the mental illness because Castiel cured him by taking the illness away completely. Maybe they need to explore it more in Castiel, but Sam no longer has entail illness.

I, like others, am dying to see what happened in those few months between Sam being left alone in the lab and hitting the dog. I have to believe (hope!) that he did all he could to find out what happened to hs brother before accepting he was dead. And, like everyone else, I want to see that.

Here is an idea - maybe Crowley did something to him to make him give up?
# st50 2012-11-11 23:16
I do not believe they needed to explore the mental illness because Castiel cured him by taking the illness away completely. Maybe they need to explore it more in Castiel, but Sam no longer has entail illness.
Sorry, Grace. That's what I meant. I was referring to Moon Rivers ideas, and why I disagreed with them...
I do agree with you... I should have said it this way.. IF they wanted to deal with it any more, they should've dealt with it BEFORE the miracle cure.... They just CAN'T deal with it now, imo. For the reasons in the 2nd paragraph.
# Grace232 2012-11-12 00:51
Oh - I got you now, st50. Thanks. Sorry - I am slow on the uptake - and nuance- sometimes.
# st50 2012-11-12 11:53
Oh - I got you now, st50. Thanks. Sorry - I am slow on the uptake - and nuance- sometimes.
Interpreting the written word, without body language and facial expressions, is HARD. It's not being "slow on the uptake". It's something we all struggle with. And why there end up being misunderstandings.
Don't be hard on yourself.
# percysowner 2012-11-11 23:16
I didn't get the impression that Cas took away the mental illness, only the most severe Lucifer hallucinations that were killing Sam. The PTSD and other conditions were still there, IMHO. During the summer Jim Michaels indicated that Sam's trauma isn't something he will ever recover from totally. Maybe they have changed their mind, but that's what we were being told.
# st50 2012-11-11 23:22
Well. Whatdoyaknow... I like the thought that they've acknowledged there'd still be some trauma that wasn't 'fixed'.
That would give them some leeway in how Sam reacts this season.
That would please me, if they used it to explain some of this - maybe - assuming they don't totally incapacitate the poor guy. :-)
# kaj 2012-11-13 04:22
I don't think we can hope on that storyline st50. As JC doesn't seem to be interested in picking up season 7's problems.

In S7 canon what Cas did is just temporary and it's still unresolved until the end of the season because Sam needed to be on his feet to fight Leviathan. So, they didn't have time to dwell on his trauma. But I doubt that JC will continue it.

It'll be believable if Sam somehow laid up in a mental hospital and running away from that place and hit a dog.
# lala2 2012-11-13 10:07
I agree, Kaj! Carver doesn't seem interested in using Sam's S7 problems to explain this OOC decision he's made. A complete mental breakdown would make sense to me but I doubt that's going to happen!
# st50 2012-11-13 11:24

It'll be believable if Sam somehow laid up in a mental hospital and running away from that place and hit a dog.
I do not think it would work to have Sam check into an institution - whether by choice or need.....I don't see him 'breaking out', and suddenly be practically fully normal (other than anxious) again after hitting the dog....

I don't think they can take it that far, and still suggest that Sam's ok enough to be back on the hunt.

I think he can break down, experience overwhelming grief and despair enough that he'd momentarily consider suicide as the answer - before being stopped by hitting the dog and then pulling himself back up.

I can even [POSSIBLE SPOILER] see him calling on Martin to discuss how to deal with his pain

....but they can't revisit his mental issues enough to where an institution is needed. IMHO.
# kaj 2012-11-14 01:42
Well, I just want explanation behind Sam's decision for 'not to look for Dean'.

They've written Sam being admitted in a mental ward before. Then, pulling Castiel out of a magic hat, waving his magic wand to absorb Sam's crazy into his own head. Talking about instant fix. And they didn't even deal with the repercussion of that in later episodes. Just said that since Sam being fixed by an angel that makes him okey dokey to hunt again.

Perhaps they won't use that trope again in this season but, on the other hand, they use the 'Sam want to live normal as opposed to hunting' again this season. Maybe this season is a season where they use old plot and old trope again but with a twist.

Also someone said that Sam and Amelia will go 'darker'. That's also an old trope with Sam - Ruby.
# Sharon 2012-11-14 04:03
I think we will only get a 'explanation' about Sam's decision if they think what they did was wrong in the first place. We may believe that nothing short of being locked in Fort Knox would of stopped Sam looking but they dont.

Sam's story is very slow where has Dean's has been in your face from the get go .Amelia didnt come off very well from the first scene and I do think that has influenced the view of her . Last week's episode with the tension between the brothers and Dean's words is leading to a nasty showdown with Benny being the one in the middle between Sam and Dean at least for me.

I would love for Jeremy to of played into Sam's mindset what he has been through but he seems to want to ignore that whole situation to give us Sam the 'normal' . The Amelia relationship obviously went south for some reason so it going abit 'darker' would be a reason.
# etheldred 2012-11-14 07:13
I read the interview about how Sam and Amelia would go darker, and it didn't sound like it meant anything like Sam going darkside or Amelia manipulating him like Ruby at all, just that Sam and Amelia both have issues from their damage and that those would cause difficulties in the relationship on the human level.

I have a lot of concerns about Sam's storyline this year, but a s4 style dark!Sam arc or a Ruby-like Amelia don't seem to be in the cards.
# etheldred 2012-11-11 23:25
That Jim Michaels quote was, as I recall, very, very early in the summer. Indications are that Carver doesn't want to explore the impact of that part of Sam's experiences. Though I'd hope they'd at least touch on it in general terms: Sam's apparent psychological collapse at the loss of Dean makes MUCH more sense if it's read as the cumulative reaction to a long series of intolerable strains rather than a response to a single event. Especially since I think trauma has to be a factor in Sam interpreting what he saw in the lab as the loss of Dean at all, rather than as a puzzle to be solved in a situation where Dean might very well still be alive and recoverable.

But for what it's worth, Cas did say that what he was going to try would "get Sam back on his feet." That's a phrase that suggests return to basic function, not complete cure.

For me personally, I don't think more Hallucifer would be either plausible or needed, but I would like to see Sam reacting humanly to the trauma. In a way, Hallucifer was actually a kind of coping mechanism. Sam said it himself, to Bobby, it kept all his crazy under one umbrella. It presented his hell experience to his brain in a form in which he could at least articulate it, if not ultimately manage it. Without that one umbrella, I'd expect that he wouldn't have another psychotic break, but that his trauma might be running all over the place in smaller, more elusive ways, like mercury from a broken thermometer. I can see that the kind of breakdown of will and purpose he seems to have had would be a manifestation of that.
# percysowner 2012-11-11 23:43
I don't think we need Hallucifer again either. Even if you take away the Cage (and as you say, Cas only said he was getting Sam on his feet), Sam has suffered major trauma for years starting with Jess dying like Mary did. I can see Dean disappearing being a final blow that knocked Sam totally off balance. Martin the hunter in Sam Interrupted cracked from the strain of hunting, so it is not a new concept that hunters can become so mentally nonfunctional that they end up institutionaliz ed.
# lala2 2012-11-12 00:15
I'm sure they changed their minds by now, but the mental illness could have returned. I don't own the S7 DVDs and have only watched TBAI once, but didn't Cas say he shifted or transferred the hallucinations? Given that he was removed to another realm, the show could have said the shift/transfer no longer worked. With Cas no longer on Earth, the hallucinations returned in full force. That could have been one way to re-introduce Sam's mental health problems.

But I believe Carver wants to ignore this part of Sam's history so I doubt anything supernatural (or interesting) is happening w/him.
# Leah 2012-11-11 23:21
The gap of months seems purposeful to me, dangled as a mystery. We can't know, but any scenario other than Sam driving around aimlessly is preferable. Did he have a breakdown? I can see him not wanting to share that with Dean. Was he working up some kind of scheme or deal to get Dean out. With the Alpha Vamp? Who might have a bond with Benny, who found a way to get Dean out. I still recall that Sam didn't seem sufficently shocked at Dean's return and just happened to show up at the cabin with a battle ready trunk. Another thing he wouldn't share with Dean. Now I'm just rambling. Let it be something that reflects favorably on Sam and explain his peculiar behavior this season. Something that might help mend things between the boys.
# st50 2012-11-14 00:26
I agree, Leah!
I want to see what happened during those lost months!
# racestaffer 2012-11-17 16:35
Muahaha... Did Sam and/or other someones make a deal that involved a "gag order"? That would be very trickstery in more ways than one, and perhaps very art imitating life imitating...? One or more characters are not allowed to discuss certain things openly. So they're using dreams and code talking to communicate? Or perhaps it's a mix of that and the invisible enemy idea? So different folks were brought into the code talking picture because of different things? Oh, that sounds like it might be very cool.
# PENNY JAIME 2012-11-12 01:41
Well, personally I don't need to see Sam's grief. After 7 season's, we all know (and have seen before) how much the brothers grieve for one another. I don't have to see it to know it happened.
I get his attractrion to Amelia as well. He obviously felt like they were in the same place in their lives. Even if they weren't, people see what they want (most of the time).
# Sharon 2012-11-12 02:15
I think in this instance and considering what the show has decided to do then I do think we need to see something more .

But they wanted to give depth to the Dean/ Benny relationship so Sam doesnt look and Benny becomes the better brother.
# Leah 2012-11-12 15:02
I agree with you Sharon, that we need to see more. A little grief and a few tears would go a long way with the fans right now. Because God knows neither Sam or Dean are going to say gushy words to each other ever!! And ESPECIALLY not this year so far. I have no problem with Sam wanting a normal life however it would be really nice to see what led up to it.
# KELLY 2012-11-13 12:22
I definitely agree as well. This is so pivotal to seeing where Sam is coming from, they HAVE to show us what he went through.
# E 2012-11-13 20:13
I think the problem with not showing any of Sam's grief is that it makes him seem cold. Yes, we know he probably grieved but it's not as dramatic to hear someone talk about their sorrow as it is to see it. And I think Dean needs to see it too, as he clearly doesn't feel that Sam has missed him or that Sam needs him.
# st50 2012-11-14 00:28
Exactly, E.
Show it to the audience, but for heaven's sake, show it to Dean!
# percysowner 2012-11-14 00:48
The one vague hope I have about not showing us Sam breaking down when Dean disappeared is that he went into shock and really didn't demonstrate his devastation. Then something can happen and he can break down completely RIGHT IN FRONT OF DEAN, so Dean can SEE how broken Sam is. That would ALMOST make up for the way they are handling Sam thus far. Not totally, but it would be a start.
# Leah 2012-11-14 07:13
That would be a GREAT way to handle it, which means it probably won't happen!
# RMF 2012-11-12 02:03
It's not funny, but I can't stop laughing. We have so little information on what's going on with Sam this season, and zero on the missing time. So I guess this is the discussion thread about nothing.

Anyway, if Carver wants to make the "what if someone kept the promise" thing stick, then he has to actually have Sam be confronted with that choice. Suppose Sam does look, but all normal methods of locating a lost object or person turn up absolutely nothing, because Dean isn't on an earthly plane or anywhere else a human should be. He discovers that taking the search any further would require some very dark mojo, which tells him that Dean is either dead, or the cost of continuing would be too high. That's the point at which he breaks down, because he's trapped. One way, he deserts his brother; the other way, he risks once again being the instrument of setting something evil in motion. After touching off the Apocalypse, setting up housekeeping with Lucifer, 180 years in Hell and the hellucinations, he simply can't do it again.

But I think the months driving around will just be months driving around.


I would have much rather seen Sera's take on the Purgatory story.
# lala2 2012-11-12 10:36
RMF, what you've described is an actual story - something podSam is currently lacking. Driving around aimlessly until hitting a dog and meeting a most disagreeable, unlikeable woman whose husband died so now she's a bitch is NOT a story.

I hated S7, but I wish Sera were still here to tell the story. Despite the brothers behaving like co-workers, they still loved each other. This season, I have no idea if they even like each other!
# st50 2012-11-12 11:57
It's not funny, but I can't stop laughing. We have so little information on what's going on with Sam this season, and zero on the missing time. So I guess this is the discussion thread about nothing.
That is funny. :D
But funny in a sad way. I guess it shows how invested we all are in this show - and the character.... And determined to make the most of what we've been given. Which sadly is not much to date.
# Grace232 2012-11-12 08:51
How do you guys know Sera planned to have Sam get him out? Did she say that in an interview?
# percysowner 2012-11-12 09:05
It was an off hand remark from Carver in an interview where he was talking about taking over from Gamble. He said Gamble had left the ending so that Sam would finally save Dean and he decided to explore what would happen if he didn't try. I've only seen it once, and I honestly can't remember where, although I'm thinking one of the many quick interviews during Comic Con.
# lala2 2012-11-12 10:38
Just reading that shows - to me - that Carver has no understanding of Sam or this show. He's the WORST thing to happen to the show, IMO.
# kaj 2012-11-13 04:33
It sounds to me that he's playing what if, lala.

What if Sam did this. What would happen to the brothers if Sam didn't look for Dean?

And I am afraid he do that with no regards whatsoever on Sam's characterizatio n as up till now we get no background explanation about the reason why Sam did not look for Dean.

For a 7 long years character and with several background childhood history it's very OOC for Sam to behave like that. People cannot change over night, in a well developed story that's OOC. No matter how we paraphrase, read behind the lines. No matter if it's only perceptions.

We just grabbing at straws here because Sam's FB just shows nothing.
Teresa Pezzino
# Teresa Pezzino 2012-11-12 09:45
I saw a theory on another thread here that Sam tried to commit suicide and hit the dog in the process. That one does make sense and fits with various comments and reactions Sam has expressed. I can see him torn about what to do, paralyzed about making a decision due to past experiences, drunk and speeding, making a split second decision to head off a bridge and hitting the dog. Explains the overreaction at the vet.
# st50 2012-11-12 11:17
I saw a theory on another thread here that Sam tried to commit suicide and hit the dog in the process. That one does make sense and fits with various comments and reactions Sam has expressed. I can see him torn about what to do, paralyzed about making a decision due to past experiences, drunk and speeding, making a split second decision to head off a bridge and hitting the dog. Explains the overreaction at the vet.
That's the one I'm rooting for, too, Teresa. Waiting, hoping, praying.... Hope they don't draw this out too much further. It's painful!
# Gwen 2012-11-12 13:21
Yeah, I'm thinking that Sam might well have been trying to commit suicide when he hit the dog. It does tie in with some of his comments this season e.g his comment in Heartache about Brick thinking he'd burn to nothing when he crashed the car.

As for what he did in those lost months all I can say is that I have everything firmly crossed that we do get to see something of this time. I want to see Sam grieving, I want to see the immediate aftermath of Dean disappearing and the implosion of Sam's world. And I hope that we don't have to wait too long to see it.

ANd, who was that silhouetted guy watching Sam leave Amelia's place? COuld it be Dean?
I've been wondering if maybe it was Amelia's husband. Perhaps she learnt that he wasn't dead after all and that's why Sam leaves her. Perhaps the night Sam left to go to Montana is the night her husband got back home.
# eilf 2012-11-12 13:29
The theory about it being Amelia's not-so-dead husband struck me too. The reason being that the way she talked about him leaving for Afghanistan sounded to me more like 'he left me and this was his excuse' than 'he wanted to be a soldier', but I might be reading too much into it.

If Amelia needed just to be a widow then there are somehow more likely stories than her husband joining a winding-down 12 year old war. (Not saying people don't, just saying it seems unnecessarily complicated for this story if it is just a throwaway point)

If Amelia had heard from him saying he was coming home that would be a good reason for Sam to clear out straight away and for there to be nothing for them to say to each other as he leaves.
# st50 2012-11-12 13:38
I am torn on this theory about Amelia's husband. It fits, and it works, EXCEPT in that it is just too ironic ( is that the word I'm looking for here?) Her husband returns at the same time Dean does? 2 "Wounded War Widows" BOTH having their significant others return from the dead?
I'm having trouble believing that their stories can be that close.
# eilf 2012-11-12 13:46
LOL nah, it would only have been the same thing if Amelia had known exactly where her husband had gone, had reason to believe he wasn't dead, had had the ability to contact everyone in the US military to help her find him and/or been able to attempt to go there in person to a war zone to find him. And. Not. Done. Any. Of. It.

On a more serious note I am not seeing how it works to forward the plot....
# st50 2012-11-12 13:51
LOL nah, it would only have been the same thing if Amelia had known exactly where her husband had gone, had reason to believe he wasn't dead, had had the ability to contact everyone in the US military to help her find him and/or been able to attempt to go there in person to a war zone to find him. And. Not. Done. Any. Of. It.
# eilf 2012-11-12 13:53
Too soon? :D
# st50 2012-11-12 13:55
Too soon? :D
Too "Spot on".
# kaj 2012-11-13 05:03
ANd, who was that silhouetted guy watching Sam leave Amelia's place? COuld it be Dean?
It's bee a great twist if somehow Dean has been topside for much longer than what we learn and he actually doesn't remember it. But Sam knows and he keeps quiet about it for some reason. Because Sam's been there with Dean the whole time that's why he's not that surprised that Dean's back.

Next episode Cas said to Dean : That's what you thought.

So, Dean remembers Purgatory differently than Cas? Is that why Dean's purgatory flashback is linear from scene to scene(compared to Sam's)? Is it because Dean's memory is fabricated?

Or maybe that's just too twisty? :D
# lala2 2012-11-13 07:44
I would love a twist like that though it's very unlikely. For whatever reason, Carver seems intent on having Sam not look. I'll never understand why he couldn't look but also get a GF. It's like Carver wanted unnecessary drama btw the brothers just to have it.
Teresa Pezzino
# Teresa Pezzino 2012-11-12 13:22
Too true. I think this theory holds some water. Ruby's line, "It's a kamikaze attack-you WANT to die fighting Lilith" and Sam's comment to Dean in 'Heartache', "You think Brick thought maybe he'd burn to nothing when he crashed that car?" both resonate. It would explain why he hasn't shared the catalyst for why he ended up 'finding a normal life' with Dean - fear of what his brother will think of him. And also why he was so panicked at losing someone again (Heartache & Blood Brothers). The writers keep alluding back to certain epis where Sam was in crisis - there is a pattern.
# st50 2012-11-12 13:40
Now that I can buy into, Teresa. He's been down a similar road before. How many times has he wanted to die and/or sacrifice himself? Without some anchor, believing he can't find or save Dean, I can see him turn that way - until the dog becomes his anchor, followed by adding in a girl.
# Leah 2012-11-12 15:15
I am with you guys, remembering how completely devastated Sam looked at the end of S7. I could buy him going off the deep end much more than hopping in the Impala driving around for months. He near came unhinged in Mystery Spot so it's not a huge leap.
# st50 2012-11-12 15:43
Yes, you can go back as far as S2, when he found out dear old Daddy told Dean he's have to kill Sam if he couldn't save him, or the Croatoan virus when he wanted Dean to shoot him.... and on and on and on.

Sam has been looking death in the face, and accepting that as the 'best case' outcome for him since he was in his early 20s.

I can definitely see him telling himself, "you know what? All this time, I was right. The world really is better off without me. And now that Dean doesn't need me around, what's the point?"

# Leah 2012-11-12 15:47
Heartwrenching but believable at least.
# KELLY 2012-11-13 12:30
Yeah given the information that we have now this makes the most sense. And I can see him not want to confess this to Dean. But I still think there is more to the story even if this is true.
# Sylvie 2012-11-12 15:45
Yep, I remember reading that one also Teresa. It actually would make sense. Maybe Sam committed himself to a psych ward, much like Martin did in "Sam Interrupted".
# suenash19 2012-12-31 16:33
I think you may be on the money there Teresa, or at least near. Personally I have loved what JC has done with the show over the years and am enjoying s8. I have a hunch that seeing the whole thing through the second time will have a completely different perspective! :-)

I choose to trust JC on this one.
# Lindab30 2012-11-12 16:36
Well, I've had plenty of time to think this thru and now I will try to put it into words. I am nowhere near as eloquent as others though so please bear with me on this. Also, I've not read a lot of other posts in here so if I am repeating what others have said, then it makes me feel good about what I'm thinking here.

I think that Sam was incapable of looking for Dean, he just couldn't do it. Dean was his "stone number one" and when he disappeared things began to crumble. I think he managed to fix the car (because that car is Dean) and most likely went to the cabin. But he couldn't focus on the job of finding Dean. I believe his hallucinations of Lucifer was his minds' way of coping with the memories because, like he said, all of his crazy was under one umbrella. When Castiel took that away it allowed all the other stuff to start coming thru. It may have been with nightmares, flashbacks, possibly more hallucinations, confusion, whatever. But, all he had to do was look to his side and there was his stone number one and he was able to cope. I think that after Dean disappeared he was simply incapable of thinking straight and formulating a plan. I think he may have gotten to the point of being suicidal or perhaps headed in that direction until he hit the dog. Remember how distraught and panicked he was about that? After being "guilted" into taking the dog that gave him something good to focus on and to live for. As stated by others I think it is quite possible that at some point in all of this he was in the hospital. Maybe it happened after he met Amelia and she was the one who got him the help he needed. After that he did what he had to do to survive. Which was focus on himself. Perhaps he convinced himself that Dean died and went to Heaven. He could live with that.

I also have another thought about this. We know that Sam and Dean will stop at nothing to save the other and this is what has everyone, Dean included, in such a dither. Many believe that Sam not looking for Dean is out of character. But, I think this is totally in character. Let me try to explain myself here. Remember when Dean came back from hell and he thought Sam had made a deal? He was ticked and told Sam he didn't want to be saved that way. Now think back to Mystery Spot and what Sam became after that first Wednesday. In my opinion his quest to find the Trickster and force him to bring Dean back caused him to lose his soul even though he still possessed it. In season 6 soulless Sam was incapable of caring about anyone or anything unless it was something he wanted for himself. In Mystery Spot after that first Wednesday the only thing he cared about was finding the Trickster and getting Dean back. He became robotic and mechanical. He actually killed Bobby to achieve his goal. Now we know he was fairly certain Bobby was the Trickster but not 100%, then for a moment he thought he had killed Bobby. And what if he actually did? What then? Bobby sacrificed himself so Sam would have the blood needed to summon the Trickster, Sam would have done that. And we could have had the exact same outcome except Sam would have to live with the knowledge he was willing to kill Bobby to get what he wanted, even though everyone was alive and well after that second Wednesday.

So what's my point in all of this? Sam actually learned something from that experience. If he had come to the conclusion that Dean had gone to Purgatory he would have done everything he could to get him back. Chart the dates and places of lunar eclipses, get the blood of the Purgatory native. Easy enough, plenty of Leviathan still around. What about the blood of a virgin? That was also needed. How would he get Dean and only Dean? I think he wouldn't have concerned himself with that. My point being, his obsessive nature that he inherited from his father would cause him to stop at nothing to achieve his goal. He already brought the earth to near annihilation once, would he do it again?

Dean would not want to be saved like that.

In my own humble opinion I think that at some point Sam was able to think clearly and he decided to honor Dean's wishes and not try to save him. Anyway, this is the scenario going thru my mind right now. Like everyone, I hope we get a satisfactory and believable explanation.

By the way, I like Amelia. There may not be sparks flying but they are giving each other what they need. And, I think Amelia's loss of her husband in Afghanistan is a good story, it brings the Supernatural world into our world. I think it is a safe bet that there are many women out there who have lost their husbands and part of their grieving process has included anger at their husband for choosing to join the military and go to war. I know that I would feel that way. Amelia obviously is feeling it and it's quite possible she's not only running from the pity but also from the anger she feels. Unfortunately the anger comes with. Sam can certainly attest to that. I'm looking forward to learning more about the Sam and Amelia story.

This has been long winded and much more than I had intended, but it's my 2 cents.
# st50 2012-11-12 17:14
You are quite eloquent, actually. :-)
Nicely thought out, and well supported thoughts...

BTW, I like Amelia, too. If she wasn't such a wounded soul, safe behind her walls, and slow to connect with people, I doubt very much that Sam would've 'connected' to her. They see a bit of themselves in the other, I think. Shared suffering lightens the load?

I definitely think Sam needs comfort and understanding more than lust right now, which is why this relationship is starting out as cooler embers rather than the almost aggressive passion that we've seen from Sam before.

(Although it does sound like they released significant, pent up "tension" in their first night together.)

Off topic, but I think it's ok in the 'discuss' threads - Anyone notice how S & D make love in an opposite way to their characte? - Dean, the snarky shoot from the hip guy is surprisingly tender, and Sam, the empathetic puppy is surprisingly aggressive in bed. Is it sad that I'm thinking about that? Ok, just ignore me. :oops:
# kaj 2012-11-14 01:25
Off topic, but I think it's ok in the 'discuss' threads - Anyone notice how S & D make love in an opposite way to their characte? - Dean, the snarky shoot from the hip guy is surprisingly tender, and Sam, the empathetic puppy is surprisingly aggressive in bed. Is it sad that I'm thinking about that? Ok, just ignore me. :oops:
Hehehe... Nope not sad. It's a fact. It just shows that despite his snark and explosive personality Dean is actually a softy. It's consistent from the start. The snark and the roughness of his personality is byproduct of the hunting life.

Sam, well it goes without saying that Sam is mostly sheltered by Dean during their childhood. It's very likely that Dean often receives hits to protect Sam and he always wants Sam to be a kid for much longer. I guess the old saying that it's always the quiet one is true here with Sam.
# suenash19 2012-12-31 16:43

Off topic, but I think it's ok in the 'discuss' threads - Anyone notice how S & D make love in an opposite way to their characte? - Dean, the snarky shoot from the hip guy is surprisingly tender, and Sam, the empathetic puppy is surprisingly aggressive in bed. Is it sad that I'm thinking about that? Ok, just ignore me. :oops:
Personally, I am missing the "pretty" thread which seems to have disappeared tonight. I think this would be perfectly acceptable there :-)
Fool For Dean
# Fool For Dean 2012-12-31 18:32

Off topic, but I think it's ok in the 'discuss' threads - Anyone notice how S & D make love in an opposite way to their characte? - Dean, the snarky shoot from the hip guy is surprisingly tender, and Sam, the empathetic puppy is surprisingly aggressive in bed. Is it sad that I'm thinking about that? Ok, just ignore me. :oops:
I've noticed that too. I think it's actually on purpose - a way of giving different layers to the characters. I actually really like how the writers choose to portray the Winchesters' personalities in bed. I mean, if I were one of the writers, I'd have done the same. What fun would it be if Dean were an aggressive lover, or if Sam were tender? Having them behave differently in bed than they do in life, however, not only gives it fun twist but also offers some sense of balance in the characters. It gives viewers a peek into their deepest persona, per se, to see that though Dean's rough around the edges, he's actually a tender and caring soul at his core. And Sam - he may appear more intellectual and a bit shy, but boy is there an inferno of unleashed passion just under those puppy eyes.

It's exactly these more-than-meets -the-eyes nuances that make the characters so real, and yet so unbelievably irresistable :)
# anonymousN 2012-11-13 12:48
Now we know he was fairly certain Bobby was the Trickster but not 100%, then for a moment he thought he had killed Bobby.
No,Jared portrayal of sam left me with the impression that he was 100% sure that it was trickster. Only when Bobby did not revert back to trickster's form did he doubt his assertions.
# racestaffer 2012-11-17 18:01
I agree, that was a lovely read. It also got me to thinking back to Lazarus rising. Where's Bobby in all this? I know he's an old dog and he's seen a lot of hunters go down over the years. But Sam and Dean seem/ed very special to him. And he's had his suicidal tendencies too. AND, he seems to be more Dean-like as far as being a toasted marshmallow. though exterior, soft interior. He's watched Dean "die slow" just like Sam. "That does things to a person." And then he's drinking like a fish (so the saying goes) as evidenced by the liquor bottles, and he's reaching out to Sam. But Sam needed space. He needed to explode or implode or both, and he wanted to be essentially alone so no one would get burned by the fallout. Yes he hooked up with Ruby at some point, because her being dangerous was "safe". If she gets burned by the fallout, who cares?

But, again - Where's Bobby in all that? Bobby's alone and drinking. Just like Dean when he made his deal for Sam. If Bobby made the deal to get Dean back, it would fit the notion of MySpot being a "semi-prophetic " dream. One that seemed to be about Sam, superficially, but may also have been about Bobby. Even though I worried about Bobby right away in S4, I think, I don't recall if I made the possible MySpot connection. And Sam might have missed it too. Junior code talker? Because Sam seemed to be the main focus and because Bobby was recognizable as being "not Bobby" and in a sinister-feelin g way. The message sender stumbled a little - Not "outside the box". From that perspective the messenger was supposed to stumble. But from "inside the box," if "Bobby" had been seemed less untrustworthy. There may have been more than one message in there, which is why "Sam" killed "Bobby" instead of Bobby killing himself. But as a result of the "multitasking", the danger of Bobby self-destructin g got lost in translation. Wow... I'd spec'ed on this in a future-tense way. Never noticed it might have already happened!

This could help explain why, in the "associations" vibes I was getting, Sam has had an association/all egiance to Bobby. The two were paired in the gold car in Mommy dearest. They had the heart-to-heart before Bobby's demise. And gee, it was like Bobby knew something, huh? And in the Ring of Fire, that especially "multiple associations" scene, Bobby seemed the biggest odd-man-out, but the next highest level of numbers+connect ions on the totem pole there was Sam+Bobby. I had this sense that Dean and Cas were working together on something and Bobby and Sam may not have been aligned in the sense that they both had a different idea - more like Dean and Cas weren't including either of them so they were both in the dark about something. Except... Cas and Sam had that eye-lock thing, similar to what we just saw. What I don't know is whether that duo is working on something wholly different or if Sam is in on the Cas/Dean plan even though Dean might not have known Cas included him.

But another alliance, or an expansion of the Sam/Bobby alliance, is the Bobby, RoboSam, SamPa, Crowley alliance. I should really just go by actors names because I don't know why their channeling much of the time. Recognize that even though I'll continue with the familiar characters since I'm this far in. Crowley and SamPa had an uneasy "alliance". RoboSam and SamPa had an alliance. Bobby knew Sam was back well before Dean did (supposedly). And when Dean accuses Cas of being in cahoots with Crowley, Cas uses body language to suggest that it's really Bobby. Plus, Bobby and Crowley have locked lips. This leads to Bobby/Crowley/S am/SamPa all being in cahoots. Of course Cas was also an uneasy "conspirator" with Crowley. But he was a mole seeking intel for Team Cas/Dean. A clear double agent (if I'm reading the scene right).

And I've already brought up double/triple agent Sam. Just like Cas needed to look desperate to assemble with that motley crew, so too did Sam, I bet. Just like Dean was looked on suspiciously by the Campbells, RoboSam would have been regarded with suspicion had he not been Robo. But the Cas/Sam body language in the Ring of Fire was more subtle (I think) than the Cas/Dean body language. Which means either Sam's a novice so he listens to code more than he speaks, or Sam is under deep-deep cover as opposed to Cas just being under cover. Hard for me to say. I'm still not 100% sure I'm reading that scene right but, since it seems I'm being tolerated at the big kids table, I'm feeling even more confident that I'm at least not wholly off base.

Sorry... I really took my eyes off the prize of Bobby, huh? Not wholly of course, cuz I had to relate my sense of Bobby's place in the group dynamics. So Sam seems to maybe have some special association with Bobby but it's not preventing him from having associations with Cas and Dean. And they, or at least Cas, is on some level quite at odds with Bobby. They have different election campaings going and Cas was really upset about Bobby's "drop of Eve" comment. So Bobby made a deal to get Dean out of Hell and Sam feels partially responsible for that because he ignored Bobby's phone calls, despite getting a warning from Trickster that Bobby was primed and ready for self-destruction.

Oh, and if Bobby is the "sympathetic monster with claws and teeth" - the impression I got from Mommy Dearest body language - If JB was doing a Yetti movie and Bumbles bounce, then Dean was Yukon and Benny = Bobby = Bumbles.
# racestaffer 2012-11-17 18:13
Oh and if Benny isn't Bobby he might be Karen. If Bobby has always been a monster, maybe he married a monster and not a human? I never trusted Bobby relaying what Karen told him instead of us getting to hear it from her own lips. Karen might be a hostage or bait.
# Leah 2012-11-12 16:54
Don't kid yourself you are plenty eloquent. A very nice and well thought out comment. Totally with you on the satisfactory and believable explanation. It is maddening and somewhat exciting that there is so little being doled out in the way of explanation. The maddening outweighing the exiting right now.
# m1tchells 2012-11-12 18:31
We also know that Sam had gone back to the cabin periodically (based on an interview with Jim Micheals, I think). Why would he be doing that if not checking for signs of Dean?
Alison Kirk
# Alison Kirk 2012-11-12 18:42
I don't know if anyone knows this but Jim Michaels let 'slip' in a podcast with the WinchesterBros radio that it may have been a woman watching Sam. Now Amanda Tapping has been introduced as Naomi, part of a special group of angels. So yes there was someone watching Sam in 8x01. And the theory that Sam may have tried to kill himself, there have been a lot of allusions to that this season. I'm crossing my fingers to see flashbacks of what Sam did in those first few months.
# KELLY 2012-11-13 12:34
That's interesting I hadn't heard that.
# E 2012-11-13 20:23
This crossed my mind too when I heard that more angels were going to be introduced. Naomi could have contacted Sam or vice versa to help get Dean and Cas out of Purgatory. Maybe she told Sam 'do nothing or else' or maybe she and Sam worked together? It gives more life to the idea of some kind of deal going on.....uh, maybe.
# lala2 2012-11-12 19:35
Are people satisfied w/the telling of Sam's story so far? If so, I would love to know why. If not, I would love to hear your reasons.

I was just reading a post on another board, and the poster said the first half of the season was dealing w/the aftermath of killing Dick Roman. I can see how Dean's story is addresing that, but I just can't see how Sam's story is addressing much of anything.

I admit that I am biased against romance stories for the boys b/c I honestly don't think they work on the show, but I feel I am objective enough to enjoy a good story when it's told. For the life of me, I just don't see anything positive about this Amelia story for Sam. I honestly don't see how it's advancing Sam's development or his arc. This story is seriously not doing anything for me. I'd like to think I'm not so opposed to it that I'm closing my mind off to how great it is for Sam. I'm just not seeing anything here. Is anyone else getting anything from this story? I'd love to hear your thoughts.
# Jo1027 2012-11-12 20:47
Are people satisfied w/the telling of Sam's story so far? If so, I would love to know why. If not, I would love to hear your reasons.

I was just reading a post on another board, and the poster said the first half of the season was dealing w/the aftermath of killing Dick Roman. I can see how Dean's story is addresing that, but I just can't see how Sam's story is addressing much of anything.

I admit that I am biased against romance stories for the boys b/c I honestly don't think they work on the show, but I feel I am objective enough to enjoy a good story when it's told. For the life of me, I just don't see anything positive about this Amelia story for Sam. I honestly don't see how it's advancing Sam's development or his arc. This story is seriously not doing anything for me. I'd like to think I'm not so opposed to it that I'm closing my mind off to how great it is for Sam. I'm just not seeing anything here. Is anyone else getting anything from this story? I'd love to hear your thoughts.
No, I'm not satisfied with Sam's story so far, as I also am not interested in romance. I wanted him to have friends but why not other hunters?
I also fear that what we've gotten so far for Sam is all we will get because Castiel is coming back and the focus of the season is going to move to him. I hate that we've not gotten any real focus on Sam's POV since the end of season 3 and season 8 looks to be exactly the same.
I have no hope at this point and am very disappointed in Carver.
# percysowner 2012-11-12 22:05
I am not satisfied with the telling of Sam's story thus far. Sam's behavior is so off. I have a hard time believing he wouldn't look for Dean and the refusal of the writing staff to show how Sam reacted after Dean disappeared is leaving Sam a complete question mark. Even worse is the fact that Sam seem less than interested that Dean turned out to be alive at all. In some ways he shows less emotions than Soulless!Sam did. At least SS had a passion for hunting and sex and seemed to be drawn to Dean in spite of everything.

I am one who disliked season four because there was so little explanation for Sam's behavior, but at least I could see Sam under it all. This season is just a complete bust as far as portraying Sam or making me see the links between the Sam we have seen in the past and the Sam we see currently. I am fast approaching my limits on the show because of it.
# shadowhund 2012-11-13 09:44
No I am not...absoultel y not! I have to say I start to not like Sam anymore. I think this is not Sam what they presenting me here, for what character did I root and vote in the past? The brothers relationship (well it is somehow a relationship, but the bond is not to be seen) as the premise of the show is not there anymore, this Sam is emotional colder, detached, shallow and the realtionship with Amelia is badly told IMO, its not told to find anything sympathetic in it or that I should care about her. I think this is the writers fault and it is deliberate from the show runner. I would like to like her, at least one person who connect to Sam, there should be more deepness to it. So this is right now missing and it builds up the most biggest questionsmark of what did Sam do right after Dean vanished? For me it is to late to tell Sam's part of the story. I think JC made a huge mistake in take over the same pattern (not) telling us Sam's reaction like it was handled in S4 and in S6!

Maybe there are some little (very little!) clues about Sam, but this is not saving the character and my indifference grows slowly
# KELLY 2012-11-13 12:57
Not so far, but I hoping it's one of those things where the enjoyment increases once you know the whole story. I don't normally have any objections to love interests as a whole. I do think it's difficult to introduce and have them around due to the nature of the story. But would like it if they could make it work, especially if it gave hope that they wouldn't die at the end of the series but could go on to have happy lives with families.

But I don't think this one is working. And I'm not totally sure I'm supposed to. Once again it seems like they are deliberate making it less than appealing than the could. I remember (and I think it was Kripke who said semi-jokingly it but it was in regards to a Carver episode) that when Sam was taking such a beating S5 that they had him without his shirt to soften the blow for the Sam-girls.

Or some hot sex with Amelia (and we know Sam gives good sex scenes) good have gone a long way towards, showing the natural of there relationship and that they have chemistry, 'cause I'm just not sensing any at the point.

But this time we got this 'tender' moment after sex, where we learn nothing about Sam and that read like a Lifetime movie. It seems like a weird choice. Giving up a sex scene for a talky moment not even about the main character.

So I'm thinking there is a reason they don't want us too attached to this chick. And there is a reason all Sam remembers is sitting around talking to her. I'm just not sure what that is yet.
# E 2012-11-13 20:24
Maybe more is coming soon, JP said that either episode 10 or 11 were going to be centered on Sam and his issues.
# lala2 2012-11-13 20:46
Well it's about time! I hope that doesn't mean more Amelia (lame) FBs.
# st50 2012-11-13 21:16
Aw. I like Amelia. She's really growing on me.
# etheldred 2012-11-13 21:27
I like her, too, but that doesn't mean I don't desperately want some FBs to the pre-Amelia, immediately after Dean's disappearance time.
# E 2012-11-13 21:18
Well, I don't find the FB's lame, but yeah, it probably does mean there will be more of them. But hey, maybe you'll like this tidbit; (uh, spoiler maybe???)

JP said that Sam and Amelia's relationship was going to get "darker"......o h well, so much for perfect and normal. Poor Sammy.
# kaj 2012-11-14 00:45
I am sorry E, but here I think... again?!

Can Sam go a season without going dark? I mean this trope has been used before, right?

If Sam and Amelia going to go dark then there's no difference between them and Sam and Ruby. Both women compel Sam to go darker.

Can Sam ever has a relationship with a nice girl? The only nice girl is Jessica and that's because she died too soon before we know of her personality. And Sarah from Provenance. Sam has a bad taste in regards of woman.
# E 2012-11-14 08:25
JP just said "dark" he didn't put dark into any kind of context. Maybe it just means troubled and not necessarily darkside dark...? Honestly though, I'd take just about anything if it showed us some more of where Sam's head is AND was!
# etheldred 2012-11-14 08:54
Here, it may help to have the actual report of what Jared said, from Alice's write up of the ChiCon Meet and Greet on this site:

"Someone asked about Amelia and Sam's relationship, and how it's being referenced to as being normal, nice, and wonderful. They wanted to know if it played into Sam's mental state about hunting here. Jared replied yes. He said that later in the season that the time spent with Amelia won't be quite like “lollipops and candy canes” as it's being sold in the birthday cake scene for instance. He said that it was a lot rockier and will show more about Sam's difficulty with being alone. Essentially, in the year that takes place between season 7 and 8, Sam is literally alone, trying to figure out what to do with himself and what path to take. Jared said that Sam hadn't coped with that aspect very well, and the Amelia relationship will become a bit darker for that reason."
# st50 2012-11-14 00:34
But episode 10 and 11 are AFTER the break, I think....
Darn it!!!! For all this angst and slow moving plot, I think it's very unfair to make us all wait until January to see what's happening with Sam.
I'm looking forward to a Samcentric episode, but JANUARY! Again - it's mysterious-Sam and we have to wait for the explanation.
# shadowhund 2012-11-14 07:34
And it could pan out like "Sam Interrupted" I know I couldn't wait to see what is in it for Sam back then in S5, and the main view was Dean's pain in the episode! I was very disappointed regarding Sam. It can be just this again, after the break! How can I even expect something different regarding Sam? I wanna go into the deepness of Sam's character and the brothers to be brothers again, I don't need more from SPN!
# E 2012-11-14 08:26
Are they? I guess they are this year cause of the late start. Oooh, they are tormenting us!
# RMF 2012-11-12 23:47
I think that Sam was incapable of looking for Dean, he just couldn't do it. Dean was his "stone number one" and when he disappeared things began to crumble. I think he managed to fix the car (because that car is Dean) and most likely went to the cabin. But he couldn't focus on the job of finding Dean. 
Possibly, coupled with his recent mental illness, Dean's disappearance would be enough to push him over the edge. That's assuming that they intend to honor the mental illness arc, which doesn't seem likely from Carver's comments about the wall. What I don't like about the idea that Sam would quickly fall apart without Dean is that one thing the series has shown us consistently is how strong Sam is. He stood up to John, he stood up to the destiny prescribed for them, and he stood up to Lucifer. So I don't see a setback like this knocking him down immediately. Even in Season 4, when Sam hinted that he might have ended it all if Ruby hadn't rallied him, it was only after he had tried a number of things and failed miserably. I don't see this situation as being that different. On the other hand, I could see a determined, obsessive person like him being driven to a breakdown by hitting the wall after trying everything he could think of, only to be met with failure or with an impossible choice.

In my own humble opinion I think that at some point Sam was able to think clearly and he decided to honor Dean's wishes and not try to save him. 
That would mean, though, that he would have to know that Dean was in a position which would require darkside means to reach him. He couldn't know that without investigating, and that's what a number of us find so frustrating.

We also know that Sam had gone back to the cabin periodically (based on an interview with Jim Micheals, I think). Why would he be doing that if not checking for signs of Dean?
I wondered if it meant that he wasn't as out of hunting as he said, and still took the occasional job or did research, using the cabin as a base of operations.

I am not satisfied with the telling of Sam's story thus far. Sam's behavior is so off. I have a hard time believing he wouldn't look for Dean and the refusal of the writing staff to show how Sam reacted after Dean disappeared is leaving Sam a complete question mark. 
The funny thing is, the text says that it's Dean who's been keeping secrets, and Sam who's been upfront from the get-go, but in fact it's Dean whose mindset and motivations are clear, not Sam's. Dean was in a brutal kill-or-be-kill ed environment, where the only agenda was survival, and his bonds with his cohorts were intense and straightforward . Then he gets topside, finds out his brother did nothing to help him, and it revives all his old resentments. Sure, there's still a mystery about what went on with Cas, but it's easy to follow the narrative so far. With Sam, it's meandering, contradictory, and affectless. We've been offered a grab-bag of motivations and a jumble of bland flashbacks in which Sam can't even articulate his own thoughts. I'm okay with a slow reveal, but there's a certain craft involved in doing so while keeping the audience invested.
# m1tchells 2012-11-13 10:06

We also know that Sam had gone back to the cabin periodically (based on an interview with Jim Micheals, I think). Why would he be doing that if not checking for signs of Dean?
I wondered if it meant that he wasn't as out of hunting as he said, and still took the occasional job or did research, using the cabin as a base of operations.
In the beginning, I was thinking that too. That Sam's year hadn't been quite so cut and dried. That he was hiding something. Maybe a deal, maybe still hunting, who knows... But as time has gone on I really believe Sam just broke. He just didn't know what to do and if he did, what would be the consequences? In his still fragile state of mind at the end of S7, it makes sense to me that he should shut down.

Now with that said, he did fix up the car and he left it fully "stocked". While that could look like an indication that he was still hunting, it also could be something that he needed to do in dealing with the loss of Dean. For one, where else would he feel the presence of Dean more than in the car? It had to be a great place of both comfort and pain for Sam. For two, when their Dad died, Dean made the speech that they had no leads and that the one thing he could do was fix the car, which seems to be exactly what Sam did. And finally, for three, it is Dean's car and if/when Dean were to re-appear then Sam would have it perfect for him. While Sam may not have gone looking for Dean, I do think he still had hopes that Dean would return. Which brings us back to him going to the cabin to check on things. Go back and re-watch when he walks in the cabin (before the glorious tackle :P ) He looks both sad, expecting disappointment, with maybe a tiny touch of hope. This was the one place he could look and did. This was obviously the right call as Dean was there waiting for him. So - to recap ;-), my thoughts are that although Sam "broke" he never completely lost faith in his big brother finding his way back.

As far as Amelia and the dog go, I think that became the catalyst for Sam's healing. For Sam to find his way back to being just Sam.

Loving all of the speculations... .!
# racestaffer 2012-11-17 19:49
Yes. I was feeling similarly about "Baby". Not only did Sam keep the car operational, Dean, himself, noticed that Sam hadn't... uh... given it any personal touches. S4 Sam did add personal touches whereas RoboSam had no interest Baby when Dean offered. Either Sam *is* really Dean, at least some of the time, or Sam felt the need to keep Baby just as Dean left her, like the room of that ghost boy, or Sam had reason to expect Dean would be "back." Well, of course there are other options, but these seem reasonable and are ones that shine a more positive light on Sam's character. And since Dean noticed and felt the need to comment, that may have been the "brother hug." A subtle way of letting Sam know he "gets it."

Andas I think about this car issue, the attempted suicide idea is seeming ever more embraceable in a not so doom and gloomy way. I've been suspecting that this might be a djinn-world redeux and death is the only escape. OK, that does sound morbid... but this show always was about Faith and apocalypse... just not Armageddon. If Bobby was gone, Dean was going to strap his beautiful mind brother in the car and drive off the pier. Then... ooooh... danger reared its SPN head and nipped that idea in the bud. We don't know that Sam was alone in the car when he hit the dog just because no one entered the vet's with him. Maybe Sam had reason to believe his own beautiful mind brother was in a "very" real sense, with him. So now it was Sam's turn to give up and bail on this buckts o'crazy world with just himself, Dean, and perhaps Baby (if Baby is a god of dreams and wasn't Dean), but Cas (or some power) stopped Sam by having the dog run in front of the car. Because even as Dean's lesson/message is sometimes you have to be OK leaving someone behind, Sam's lesson/message (per my Bobby's self destruction analysis) is not to be so quick to leave people behind who might need you.

I hope that doesn't come off as too simplistic or "flip side." Sam's matter / Dean's anti matter, kind of thing. but it's kinda resonating with me. Eh, "all possible entendres," right. If it resonates for me, that's something right there. Something right there? {giggle}
# Darya 2012-11-13 01:11
You know, sorry if this is a spoiler or anything, but I read somewhere that Martin does make an appearance in S8. Episode 9, if I remember right.

And the synopsis said that SAM contacts him. Which I personally find really odd because Martin wasn’t exactly the picture of mental health the last time we saw him, and the episode synopsis seemed to hint that he was back on track hunting.

Possibly just fan-wanking here, but that could mean something for Sam’s storyline. Martin isn’t the go-to guy for any hunting related business, usually.
# shadowhund 2012-11-13 09:30
For now I would say.... like Sam is presented in the show....except the words "my world imploded" (and this has to be shown Mr. Showrunner) it is like Sam did just extended vacation... somehow relieved that Dean isn't around anymore.
But....the Sam I know would be devastated and trying to find out what happened to Dean. If he couldn't I would think of him trying to not go on anymore, giving up. But suicide is quite a sin...are the souls going to hell when they kill themselfes?

It could also be that he had a breakdown and was admitted for some time. When he came out he tried to find out about Dean with books in the Campbell library and finally came to the conclusion somehow Dean was dead and in heaven so he tried to let it go (that is understandable and right to do IMO) Sam was surprised Dean was in purgatory his reaction told me this
# eilf 2012-11-13 22:18
Well you know part of Martins problem was probably the whatevershewas monster - she was increasing the crazy in everyone. So if Martin committed himself for a while just to get himself back to one piece (basically the way S&D did) he would have only gotten worse the longer he stayed.

I could totally see Martin as a Howlin' Mad Murdock character - that would be fun.

They did explain what Sam wanted him to do I think.
# racestaffer 2012-11-13 10:12
I hear some folks in this place might be desperate enough to make sense of odd/disturbing things we've seen that they might be open to secret story spec? There *is* one going on. Pretty sure. Really pretty sure. Sure enough. I can't tell you for sure what it is nore even who the players are. This is a world of alternate realities, ghosts, gods, demons, djinn, angels, shapeshifters and men (as in mankind). The possibilities are pretty endless. Got ideas... but that's a hard sell because of all the possibilities.

BUT... the signs of it? Those are tangible. Particularly so here... because, like in my beloved ManKing, I think this episode gives us "physical" evidence! (LOL)

Soooo... any takers? {WEG}
# st50 2012-11-13 10:22
At this point, one theory is as good/valid as the next.
Bring it on, racestaffer.
# racestaffer 2012-11-13 12:00
All righty! This ican get very "trippy" if you let it. I enjoy playing around with all the ideas it fertilizes, but it can be tiring because you can get sucked in and never get anywhere. And I think that's one of a number of elements why I've been almost completely unsuccessful in getting people to embrace and discuss. But if people are unhappy enough with what they are seeing and understanding right now, that might grease the skids a little. And the trick for the hesitant is, try not to worry about figuring out *what* the secret story (stories?) is. In fact, the only prize you'd get for figuring everything out is that you won't be surprised by the "reveal" when (and if - grin) it's made. I think whether fans consciously mull that over or not, that too may be an element in not finding participants in this kind of discussion. But I think the possibilities are soooo inumerable, that it would be like winning the lottery to fully peg the under-story. And again, how long do you want to risk being unhappy until the Team brings the sub-story to the surface (if they ever do).

No, the purpose here , to start with, is just to build some faith. Faith that there's more to what's going on than meets the eye. Faith that when things seem a little off... there's often a valid reason. Faith that there is a secret story... and who cares what it is at this point.

There have been signs/elements of a secret story around for a very long time, minimally as far back as Dark Side and perhaps all along. But I think now, for secret story 101 discussion {grin}, the best evidence may come from ManKing... cuz it just rocked... and this episode cuz it's so new. And BOTH incorporate the same kinds of "physical" clues. You're not just guessing about what words really mean... you can couple dialog with immediate action.

Eh, perhaps I *should* offer up the logic that underpins the secret story before we begin... supernatural beings can be invisible. They can have magic coins like Crowley (supposedly) that can eavesdrop. If flesh and blood Sam and Dean are in Phoenix and they get wind of a possible flesh and bllo vampire case in Colorado, they can talk about their plans openly. But if they're... say... in Hades realm and want to escape... he might be standing right next to you wearing his helmet of invisibility when you say... meet me 2 o'clock tomorrow at The Gate. Now, you might say that if you plan to be somewhere far, far away at 2 o'clock (LOL). But for some reason like that, whatever our "players" are working on, they can't be open about it. And precedent for this on the junior scale comes from "Funkytown" of Season 2. Sometimes a hunter *has* to speak in code.

Sorry. Where was I? Oh yeah. ManKing I actually broke down somewhere on this site, sometime last season (or over the summer). For now I'll skip to Souther Comfort. Would it surprise you to hear that, at the start of the big knock down, drag out fight between the boys... Dean told Sam to hit him? He did. "Sammy's greatest hits." Hunter-speak (or angel-speak or whatever). If you have the episode recorded go back to that scene. Listen carefully to what is said AND watch the actors' heads, eyes, and hands. The key to really solidifying belief is to be able to see your "code deciphering" put into immediate action. The guys give each other stage/story direction. They did this in ManKing big time too.

Borrowed from SuperWiki:

Dean: Everything you've ever done since you climbed into my ride has been to deceive me.

Interpretation - "Dean" wants "Sam" to lift his eyes (climb) to the lead car on the wall behind him... the black one... like Baby. Notice we can only clearly read the number on that on. I think the white car might have had a 63 on it but it may have been intentionally obscured. The black car is 64. Not sure what Sam is supposed to get from that. I suspect Dean's going for police code 64... armed robbery. Last episode Dean gave Sam his "20." Didn't look it up but I think that was police code for location

Sam: What do you want me to say? That I've made mistkaes? I've made mistakes, Dean.

Interpretation - That's not enough for Sam to "follow Dean's lead" in this improv scene. What does Dean want Sam to say/do? Give me more to go on.

Garth: That's not Dean, Sam.

Dean: Mistakes? Well, let's go through some of Sammy's greatest hits.

Interpretation - Sam should hit something or someone.

Dean: Drinking demon blood?

Interpretation - Sam's going to get bloody. In fact, he might get the blood equivalent of a milk mustache from drinking blood.

Dean: Check.

Interpretation - This one has several possibilities. It may be about "checking up" one's swing in the upcoming staged fight. However, slightly after he says this, Dean starts tapping his left hand on his hip or abdomen. So check is more likely hunter-speak to look for a visual clue... Dean's tapping. Dean may have stage blood in his pocket. Or perhaps we combine them to get check...gut... I.E., "gut check."

Dean: Being in cahoots with Ruby? Not telling me that you lost your soul? Or how about running around with Samuel for a whole year, letting me think that you were dead while you were doing all kinds of crazy. Those aren't mistakes, Sam. Those are choices!

Interpretation - Either simple pretext or too speculative for this post.

Sam: Alright, you said, we've both played a little fast and loose.

Interpretation - Might be all RIGHT. Sam's going to lead with his right. Fast and loose may be storyline (promiscuity?) but it would also work as a description of how their scuffle should play out. Not long and intricate... Fast & loose.

Dean: Yeah, I might have lied. But I never once betrayed you.

Observation - Dean shakes his head no saying the last. This could be Dean indicating he *has* betrayed Sam. But it could also be unconnected to his words, a simple "no" to Sam's idea on how the fight should go. A "look" quickly flashes across Sam's face. Most fans will interpret it as Sam being wounded by the charges. I think Sam is again confused about what Dean is trying to communicate.

Dean: I never once left you to die. And for what? A girl? You left me to die for a girl?

Observation & Interpretation - Sam's eyes go down in the direction of his right arm. between the first time Dean says "left" and the second time. Like actors and race staffers (grin). It can be easy to get confused by communication of left/right. You need a fixed point of reference. The fellas can't rely on "stage right/left... so they are confirming. Dea's left? Sam's right arm. Yes, Dean's left.

Whammo. Sam's right fist hits Dean's left side.

Sam winds up with a blood mustache.

Garth gets in on the correography too.

"Come on, Dean" = Step forward.
"You need to let it go." = Drop the coin.
"Come on, Dean" = Closer...

Punch... Dean lets IT (the coin) go.

More to follow... {hee}
# racestaffer 2012-11-13 12:20

1) Sorry for the typos. Wish we could edit.
2) This is not the only example of physical "improv". Not even the only example in this episode,
3) Not all "code-talking" can be linked to immediate actions (I don't think) like these types of examples. But as I said, this ability to makes these immediate physical connections is the strongest support for there being covert communication.. . things being being about something disconnect from the overt context.
4) I *do* believe the Team are ready for more people to start picking up on this. That's what the final scene with Benny was all about in the previous episode. I have heard complaints about... why didn't Dean just ask Sam "not to." The writer and/or director must have wanted to manufacture undo drama. No. I think they wanted to shine a spotlight on the fact that sometimes the fellas communicate with shakes of the head instead of words... like Dean's "No" to Sam in the exchange leading up to the fist-fight.
# st50 2012-11-13 12:31
Wow. That's really interesting, racestaffer. I must admit I'm not picking that up at all. I'll have to really watch for this kind of 'communication' tomorrow.
# racestaffer 2012-11-13 14:57
I can't guarantee there will be physical stage direction tomorrow, or even code-talking (sans immediate action). So if you really want to pick up on code-talking a tool for that is to, believe it or not, mentally take the words out of context. It's fun... almost naughty, because it's so common to accuse people of taking things out of context. That's kinda sinful {hee}. But if there is a secret story, if Becky Rosen was telling us there's a lot of pretexting going on, if The Winchester Gospel is really about generating a new source of Da Vinci code (LOL)... the guys are often NOT talking about what they seem to be talking about.

A words only (no stage direction) billboard of this was probably delivered by Benny and Dean last episode. Dean expresses concern for Benny state of mind... the "You good?" scene... which is interesting, itself out of context (good or evil?) but not as overt as I'm leading to. Benny says he doesn't know if this is real... if *he* is real. Dean affirms this is real... Fine. But he doesn't stop with the affirmation. He adds something like: I've been down that rabbit hole. I know what happens if you think that way. You gotta play it like it's real. Ya get me?"

Whoa. What is Dean talking about? He played that like it wasn't real... because it wasn't real. Uh... or was it real enough and then doubting it was real made it unreal... or... But whatever actual experience he's getting at, it sounds like Dean is telling Benny to be a "method actor" doesn't it. No... this isn't "real" but you gotta play it like it *is* real.

This way of looking at these scenes gives us reason and/or inspiration for FrenchMis. The Comedies... the MOTWs... they are not fluff... phoning it in... etc. There are reasons for things that are non-obvious. FrenchMis lend itself to a couple possibilities. Either FauxJensen and FauxJared are going to turn out to be the real angels/gods/dev ils of SPN (meta the meta - hee)... Or Sam and Dean got sent there to work on their method acting skills cuz they wen't good enough at it. They'd shown some potential for this sort of stuff as everyday monster hunters (Funkytown), but they needed to sharpen and expand those skills before they could tackle the really big, big bad.
# racestaffer 2012-11-13 15:03
Sorry - lost a bit here:

Whoa. What is Dean talking about? WIaWNSB ? He played that like it wasn't real... because it wasn't real. Uh... or was it real enough and then his doubting it was real made it unreal... or... But again, specing on story can get head-spinny, time-consuming, and yield nothing concrete.
# racestaffer 2012-11-13 12:50
See... it's addicting. I should put this away for now, but it's exciting to have someone at least appear to take it seriously. Maybe not believe yet... but be open minded. Soooo... the other place it was quite evident (on a smaller scale) to me, in this episode, was when the fellas and Garth were on-site and Garth eventually steps in the green ectoplasm. Sam and Dean to to red-shirt son. Marital problems? Yada, yada. The guys tells them they are free to look around. Look at his left arm. It can easily be an arm and hand gesture to the ground in the immediate vicinity. The sons could have kept his arms at his side when he invited them to look around. He could have done a gensture that was with two hands upturned closer to shoulder height. Try it. Say, "Feel free to look around" and see what you would instinctively do with your hands. Mine don't go where red-shirt's go. And, of course, red-shirt could have invited them to look around in the house too. Might be a possed object or hex bag or book of magic or.. OK, for FBI... might be diaries or emails or... No... they stay outside, his hand kinda points around but aorwards the ground... and then Garth steps in a clue on the ground.

Improve stage direction...
# racestaffer 2012-11-13 13:00
And the "Ring of Fire" scene from ManKing?!!!! Oooohhhh... loves me that scene (and that episode).... soooo much! If you missed my old posting on that subject, to be brief... Dean, Sam and Bobby didn't "trap" Cas in that ring of fire. I'm more sure now than ever (and I was pretty sure from the start - LOL) that they gave Cas stage direction and he followed it.
# racestaffer 2012-11-13 13:34
PPS - Yes... Thinking more about it... the 64 was VERY likely "armed robbery." The town this case took place in, Kearney, Mo... it's the birthplace of Jesse James. Armed Robber and guerilla warrior for the Confederacy. Yep... and we've had several Jesse or Jess references over the years. Slaves (and thir escape routes?), rebellion and theft... they're very likely all relevant to whats going on. EX - Our werewolf girl found her way to the train... Benny's Soul Train? Supernatural's underground railroad?
# vivian 2012-11-13 13:37
This sounds like a number 23 kind of thing.
# racestaffer 2012-11-13 13:50
Not familiar with that reference...
# vivian 2012-11-13 13:53
It's a movie, with Jim Carrey.
# racestaffer 2012-11-13 14:13
Looked that up on Wikipedia. Sounds cool, may have to check that out. My "could be like" along similar lines has been Identity, cuz I'm a John Cusack gal, myself. More recently we can add in Shutter Island. I'm not a straight up horror gal but psychological thrillers can be fun and interesting. But if a cracked in the head murderer invents a fantasy life where he "plays" a good guy. Do you bring him back to reality or let him live the fantasy? We've had that theme more than once in SPN... asking whether fantasy or reality is preferable. WIaWNSB. FrenchMis sorta (no Hell below us, above us only sky). The Man Who Knew too Much.
# racestaffer 2012-11-13 14:20
Maybe I should add... when I spoke of the murderer, I was speaking of the movies. Although I still wonder about who killed Mom and Jess, especially given that: 1) John was home when Mary died. 2) Unbeknownst to Sam, John used to lurk around Stanford. 3) John has been seen as a vessel for YED.

Of course Sam "lurked" outside Lisa & Ben's... And Sam has a lot of John in him.

And someone was lurking outside Amelia's.
# racestaffer 2012-11-13 16:05
st50 - Sorry. When you get like a puppy chasing your tail with spec/analysis, it can give people a headache. I've literally gotten that comment more than once. That's why I started out talking about the 101 level. So let's back up this train and I'll just give you a simple (?) list of what to watch and listen for:

Physical -
1) Head nods in the affirmative or negative.

Pay particular attention to shifts. IIRC, Dean chaged up his nods in ManKing and he definitely did it with Garth. "You're not Bobby" {head shake negative} switches over to "You're never going to be Bobby." {head shake switches mid-stream to affirmative}. Yeah... that ain't natural {grin}

2) Shifting eyes and jerks of the head.

Besides going towards things we all can see, like Sam's arm (above), I think they sometimes go to one or more invisible "characters". Faith, IMToD, the S3 finale have all shown us that conditions must be met for people to see supernatural entities. Sam had seen some pretty freaky things by Faith, but couldn't see the reaper... etc. I think there are "baddies" Dean can see that Sam cannot and vice versa. But they'll point them out with jerks of the head.

3) Hand gestures that seem a bit awkward... unnatural.

As I said, if I say "Go ahead, take a look around," my hands and arms are inclined to go up and out... not down.

Verbal -

1) "Look at me." (or something similar that demands someone to focus somewhere)

That specific example is from the Ring of Fire scene. It straddles the verbal/physical border because it's a cue that the speaker (in that case "Dean") will be communicating in body language (see above). Dean did some head nodding as he spoke, after Cas has turned to face him.

2) Repeated words, especially over a short period of time. It might be by one person like left... left... above or by different people. the word of phrase demands extra attention for some reason. A common reason may be double-checking ... confirming you got it right. We sometimes do it literally in (race) radio comm or sometimes shorthand it to "copy that". Did you get "that"? Yes, I got "that". Copy "that."

3) Turns of phrases that strike you as odd. This is the equivalent of the... Where would MY hands go test. It may something that just doesn't seem to suit the context or the character speaking or both. I mentioned Dean's "Rabbit hole / Play it like it's real." Dean's obesssion that Sam left him to die for a GIRL. Unless the slashers are onto something, would Dean really care over-much that it was a girl? Eh... maybe. But in this case I think adding in the girl just gave Dean a reason to repeat "you left me" which was the confirmation of stage direction. If you find yourself mentally scratching your head thinking why did s/he say *that* or *that way*... trying thinking about what those words might mean in a different context.

4) A combination of all of the above as in is when words/phrases and imagery repeat... especially if it doesn't pass the "unusual" context. In this episode an example is Amelia's "The bell's rung on that one" and the close up of the bell indicating someone entered the store. Even by itself, Amelia's turn of phrase doesn't strike me as something that I'd insert in a story as a matter of natural-soundin g dialog. Sure, I'm familiar with the phrase... but I don't think it's ever come up in casual conversations in my personal experience. Maybe that's regional? {shrug} But then combine it with the imagery to boot? I won't spec meanings on this, here, but I suspect the bell ringing is significant.
# racestaffer 2012-11-13 16:21
Sorry AGAIN. I think I got the "head shake switch" backwards. I think "You're not Bobby" may have been the affirmative and "You're never going to be Bobby" was the negative. Interpretation being... It's true {nod yes}, you're not Bobby. But it's not true {shake no} that you're never going to be Bobby.

So maybe someday... after sufficient training and practice... and when the time is right... you *will* be Bobby. So perhaps this is Chuck's (Olympian) godling aspect who is the successor to Bobby's (Titan) king god aspect? I didn't bring up color code-talk because that's perhaps the most speculative... But Bobby and Sam had the gold car in Mommy Dearest while Dean and Cas were in the silver one. Sometimes the era of Titan Cronus is considered golden and the era of son Zeus is considered silver. We've had some Greco/Roman references in the show and certainly issues of rulership and retirement, etc. Generations. If God dies or retires, who will be the new God? That kind of thing. Sam was once again choosing a gold car to get to Dean (and Benny) last episode. Garth's vehicle is silver.
# st50 2012-11-13 16:27
Ok racestaffer.
I've got the idea, but you've gotta slow down for me.
I'm overwhelmed.
Struggling to keep up here.... Just dial it back while I watch this week, k? Then we'll chat.
# racestaffer 2012-11-13 17:09
Ok - I'll try to simplify one step further, then let you be. {sheepish grin}

If something looks or sounds a bit (or a lot) off/unnatural in the obvious story context, do 2 things:

1) Watch/listen closely for more oddities, particularly right away in *that* scene. After all, if one character feels the need to communicate covertly, more than one will probably engage in the process.

2) Strip away the apparent context, cuz (in a way) maybe it's not the words/action that are off, it's the context. Consider what this stuff might mean in some other, hidden story.

TTFN, {grin}
# racestaffer 2012-11-13 18:25
Well, one more generic thing to connect my spate of posts more directly to the topic title. "Ran" might be code-talk. If so, Wikipedia's entry on the Japanese film Ran looks promising. The various meanings of the word in Japanese may apply in whole or in part, or the story depicted in the film, or both could be relevant to human Sam's (and/or something "wearing" Sam) response to what happened when he lost his brother... "Dean."
# racestaffer 2012-11-13 18:35
Or maybe not so much "wearing" Sam as maybe a shapeshifter "playing" Sam in Sam's (PK-connected?) "daydreams."
# racestaffer 2012-11-13 19:06
Of course... ROTFL... a Japanese references would seem to me most strongly in Bobby's ballpark whereas a film reference would seem most strogly in Dean's ballpark... Neither of whom were supposedly *in* the flashback (daydream) or having the flashback. I wonder if Team HAS gone down that road oft spoken of in the fandom... body switch. Either that or Sam is carrying around Dean like Bones did with Spock. Dean recenrly called Sam "House" a doctor reference. Sam had a dog named Bones in Dark Side. So shapeshifter Bobby-Sam could be communicating to "symbiont" Sam-Dean? Er... or maybe Dean got his love of movies from John (he got a lot from John) or Mary (shoulda gotten something from her). I spec'd elsewhere that Sam seemed to channel some female energy this episode, especially with that "Oh please! You didn't need a penny to say those things." Think about the words, JP's physicality and his tone. Can you superimpose Samantha Smith .


Oh this soooooooo fits my FauxJensen/Faux Jared Spec! Didja also notice that Dean called Sam "Sammy" twice this episode? That too was friggin weird! Dean rarely calls him that. It's teasing but affectionate and/or quite concerned. Fans are soooo having drama tizzies over the state of the brotherly relationship. I haven't felt it's been as bad as all that... but overtly it's tense. So if Dean's mostly feeling pissed at Sam, and Sam's not in mortal danger... why is Dean calling him Sammy? Not once... but twice? That's been hunter-code bugging me though I haven't put it on the front burner yet. What if Sam is currently the vessel for FauxSamSmith? "Dean" knows this and slips occasionally into calling her Sammy. That could also explain why "Dean" Dean seemed surprised to learn he says "awesome" a lot. And the next time he said it, after discovering it, he said it weirdly. "That's not how you say idjit! You say it angrily... hot happy." Well, that wasn't quite how and when Dean would say "awesome" either. But... if he's perhaps...mmmm. ... FauxJeffryDean (anith that a meta-meta hoot. Mom & Dad are played by actors with names similar to the kids. And I long ago spec'd about a "parent trap" scenario too. Man... sometimes I do feel like pieces of secret-story start falling into place. I'm sure I'll decide later I'm deluded... again (LOL).

But everyone was so please to see "Sam & Dean" on speaking terms in FrenchMis. But maybe it's really (Jeffrey)Dean and Sammy(Smith) who are barely on speaking terms. John & Mary. They were separated in DarkSide.


Sorry if that was jibberish. I tend to type spec "stream of consciousness." Never know what points I'll wind up hitting along the way once I start. {sheepish grin}
# racestaffer 2012-11-13 19:26
Yeah... and "My ride (Baby) ain't Dean's ride. My ride is John's ride. I've had a lot of "strip the context" spec about "my ride." Lotsa diverse possibilities there. But now I'm leaning towards Baby... only I think it's "John's" Baby, not Dean's. Heee... and it fits with Jeffrey-Dean saying "We won" and Garth looking at him funny. That too was probably a Baby reference. "All this over a girl, Gabriel?" I'd already homonymed this to Wee One.

I toyed with... Wee - Scottish/Crowle y reference? Heck, it's probably that too BTW. Ben Edlund invited us to embrace "all possible entendres" in ManKing (my beloved ManKing!). In fact, Crowley invited us, LOL. Baby could be Morpheus's brother - the one mainly responsible for inanimate objects. Ancient spec there. A car one moment, King of the Crossroads the next? It always seemed likely to me that the magic coin was bogus and either Crowley was working with Gabriel or Crowley WAS Baby, and that's how he overheard the conversation.
# racestaffer 2012-11-13 19:42
But JP was "channelling" SammySmith at least some of the time this episode. It sooooo makes sense of things. I can hear Sam Smith, but with her b!tchie "Eve" voice and that... "Oh, please..." Wait, did Eve maybe even say that? And JP's turn of the head... away from Dean. Kinda like Huck Finn and catching the sewing item (I think). He clamped his legs together cuz bots wear pants. A girl would spread her legs cuz back then they wore dresses. And with that Sam/Dean exchange at the car, part of what seemed feminine to me was the body language again. If a guy were going to start a sentece with an "Oh please..." he'd probably look you straight in the eye. And I'm not sure that's a very masculine lead in to a sentence to begin with. But for sure, if he says it, he's being "challenging" so he's looking you in the eye... not "tossing his head" in "disgust". That's girlie.
# racestaffer 2012-11-13 20:01
Yeah... the potential innuendo was unintended. Not sure how Twain put it... I just remember the (supposed) logic behind it (LOL).
# E 2012-11-13 21:04
This all sounds very complicated to me. Is this supposed to be something that the writers are writing into the script deliberately and that the actors are aware of? Or are you talking more about the kinds of unintentional queues that the actors are inadvertently revealing in the staging because they know the script already? The writers only have a few weeks to write the episodes and only 8 days to film, this seems like too much detail to go into and keep track of in a deliberate or intentional way. The possibilities with this sort of thing seem so incredibly endless that the story seems to get lost to me. Sam Winchester as Samantha Smith? Huck Finn? I am having a hard time seeing all the connections you are making here. Sorry.
# kaj 2012-11-13 23:55
Actually, E. About the script. I remember someone from the crew said that they've received the script up to episode 10 when they start shooting episode 1.

So, Episode 1-10 is a finished storyline.
# etheldred 2012-11-14 06:44
I think they PLAN the season at the start up to hiatus; from what I understand, they have two big meetings where they break the season, one for the first half, one for the second. But it certainly isn't the case that they have finished scripts for 10 when they start filming. At SDCC they had begun filming 8.3 (which was the first filmed), and Edlund said he had either just handed in or was just about to hand in the script for 8.5.

In some cases there is reasonably good evidence that they make pretty drastic changes (Gamble said they'd talked about having Sam soulless all year, but in the end he was resouled at hiatus) in the writing process, too, so I certainly don't think things are set in stone at a minute level of detail.
# kaj 2012-11-16 03:54
Hi, I think this is from Bardicvoice during the VanCon tour

Russ said they already had the first-draft scripts through episode 10 so far, which was unusual since they were only shooting episode 5 at the time, and previously got very little lead time in which to look at scripts – as in, only a couple of weeks before beginning prep for most scripts over the years. Since they were getting scripts earlier this year than they had in the past, it was easier for them to be able to figure out the shooting budget that would be required and correct details where necessary – for example, getting the scripts to change to reduce the number of locations, or to consolidate or relocate scenes.

I am not sure what the rough draft entails but at least the plot is fixed at the time, right. And the few changes are maybe about the location and such. Dialogues can also be changed but I think not the whole plot?

So, 1 - 10 are fixed episodes with deliberate plot line. They may change little things here and there maybe but not the whole plot.
# etheldred 2012-11-16 07:30
Well, that agrees with what the situation was when Edlund gave his interview. Vancon was a couple of months after SDCC, and it sounds like they were going at the same rate: in July, when Comic Con happened and they were filming the first ep filmed, the drafting was just about up to ep 5, as per Edlund. When they are filming episode 5 as of Vancon, some weeks down the line, that's when they have drafts up to ep 10, not at the very start of filming for the year.
# racestaffer 2012-11-16 08:03
Hmmmm... This is very interesting. So maybe the Team *is* wratcheting up the clues with more introduction of visual clues. Gotta find or generate the artwork if it has to be special... like a roundy round track. Gotta allow directors time to plan shots so you can see Dean tap his hip or abdomen... but still have a nice shot and not make the tapping too obvious/awkward .

# E 2012-11-14 08:35
I think that the crew might get the scripts that far in advance, and I am sure that the directors get their script weeks in advance so they can prep, but JP/JA have said numerous times that they only get 1 sometimes 2 scripts ahead of time as they want to keep the actors in the current plot line and not to know or reveal stuff thats ahead to them too much. It helps to keep them from inadvertently 'playing the outcome' if you know what I mean. Even this year at Comicon, JP said he had only read scripts 3 and 1 ; this was just before they began filming. JA said he'd only read 3 as that was the one he was directing.
# kaj 2012-11-14 00:01
racestaffer, I think it's interesting that you can pick that up.
And from the so many coincidence I think the property staffs and the creative crew is aware of the subtext.

When you said that Dean probably channeling John and Sam channeling Mary in the episode, then, it makes sense that Dean said "Ever since you climb into my ride has been to deceive me."

Mary never told John about her involvement in supernatural. Thus ever since she climbed into John's ride had been to deceive him. Mary practically used John as a tool to get away from her father and the hunting life. Their shitty life actually started when Mary made a deal with Azazel to sacrifice her youngest son.

In that context, it makes sense.
# racestaffer 2012-11-14 10:32
Oh... and I have another thought. When you strip the context, there's so much you can spec about "the ride" as relates to this show... a car, a vessel, uh... a girlfriend, the planet Earth...

So now, having just talked about JP as seemingly "channelling Sammy Smith"...Changi ng Channels. If Sam and Dean were supposed to be vessels for transporting souls &/or supernatural beings on the underworld's underground railroad... well, they'd be channelling them, right? So Changing Channels might be a message Sam and Dean were supposed to change which beings they were and/or would be channeling.

This *is* the problem with the secret story, of course. As I said, it's one reason why so many can find it so easy to dismiss it.

race, you just got all excited and argued "the ride" was probably Baby. Now you're telling us the ride might be the vessel and either FauxJeffreyDean , FauxJared, or... whoever... is pissed because FauxSammySmith climbed into his ride... Sam Winchester?!!!

So many possibilities! And I find it fun to consider them all. But no "ah-ha" or at least no lasting one. It's constantly another possible "entendre." But as I said, the fact that I cannot hone down the possible explanations to just one probable explanation does NOT mean the writers cannot be pulling it off because it's too hard ...too complicated. It ain't. Either their playbook says Baby is the ride or it says Sam is the ride. THEY know. They aren't guessing. It's not this ...or that ...or maybe the other for them. It's just this one thing they are "driving towards" for them.

And of course"all entendres" further complicates things... on our end, but not the writers'. We don't know that Sam being "the ride" and Baby being "the ride" are mutually exclusive. There's material you can draw on to support such a notion... such as Sam being one of the two "voices" of Baby - Sam in Changing Channels / Cas in DarkSide. And oh... the spec that can be spun just on that set of observations! (ROTFL).

But going back to complicated... and how minds work... and entendres... I'm not a professional writer. But I dabble every now and again with this or that far. Very infrequently, mind you. I've written two poems inspired by SPN, one that's kinda sorta almost a song. I exited the interstate once, on the way to a race, because I'd had words bouncing around in my head, and they'd built to almost a complete poem... and it felt wrong to ignore a Muse on the impossibly rare occasion of it chosing to speak to me {hee}. Poetry is often not about what it appears. "And I? I took the road less traveled by..."Probably not really about a walk in the woods. When I write poems, I gravitate to homonyms. I wrote a poem inspired by a summer softball leagues once. Excerpting:

[...]The Comedy of Errors.
A team, for better and...
for worse
combats the summer daze [...]
In the softball context, "errors" has a very specific meaning. But "Comedy of Errors" also refers to something else. All possible entendres. Because I love homonyms, one problem I run into is deciding on spelling if there's more than one option. Summer Days? or Summer Daze?

It's not hard. Or at least, it's not hard 100% of the time, if your mind "works" that way. Yes, I've also started something and not finished because of "writers block." It's not easy... not all the time. But sometimes... sometimes it just... comes to you. And *I* am not a professional creative writer. So surely there are minds that are even better at it than mine... and yeah... I kinda think some of them work on SPN.
# kaj 2012-11-16 03:37
It's very interesting talking with you race!

Please, if you can see the next episode stage act. I find it a very interesting thing to explore. I'd like to know more. :-D

I love puzzle movies like DaVinci code and the like. I think from seasons to seasons Supernatural's set and decor play a big role in the mood and the storyline.

I wrote something too with a puzzle element in it and I often had to peek on my cheat sheet to make the storyline sound. It's so much fun, though I am not sure if I can do it again because it's tiring my mind. LOL But it's an addiction.
# racestaffer 2012-11-16 09:47
kaj - Back atcha.

How neat that you've written something puzzlish. Just messing around to have fun, or might I stumble across it "out there" one day? A cheat sheet? Let's call it your own "hunter speak" dictionary. I've been asking for one of those since Dark Side of the Moon but I suppose I should heed the advice of Garth Brooks. "Sometimes I thank God, for unanswered prayers." Garth Brooks? Oh the things that make me say, "Hmmmm..." Still. Does your piece of work assemble all the pieces? That's a concern of mine with the show. They call it The Winchester Gospel, but gospel writers have been notoriously stingy about the sharing their playbook. And sure... mystery is trickstery. But there's more than one way to be a trickster. So my fingers are crossed.

No, I didn't notice staging along the lines of choreography here. Sometimes you need to perk and revisit things that don't sit right. Cas and Sam seemed to have a non-verbal communication moment, locking eyes. But I don't think it led to immediate physical action. If it was about anything it would seem to be about what Cas said. For several reasons I doubt I'll be revisiting this episode soon. At least we have Hiatus.

On the other hand, if you're just probing for any old bat signal - then oh, sure. Crowley probably isn't the Big Bad Wolf he's appearing to be. I think he told us that in his "scratched the surface" line. Kevi's finger will probably prove to be "slight of hand" too. Right now I'll guess he has the power to go partially invisible. There was a sign when the guys were walking around that said something like "Keep fingers clear." I did notice that.

Muahahaha! Talking about this stuff is so helpful! The claw marks in Exile? Was it time to scratch the surface a little bit? Wanting to scratch your brains (out) in... I dunno... I think it's a few episodes. The itching powder in Hell House...

So, how crazy invested are you in the show? You are aware, perhaps, that there were some supposed "factual" discrepancies early in the series? I don't know if they'll all fall like dominoes, but one did for me this morning. It wasn't a continuity issue - well {shrug}you know what I mean - that John Winchester wound up with two different ToDs. There was some code talking going on there.
# kaj 2012-11-16 10:16
Well, it's not that elaborate of a puzzle.
I don't think my brain can cope with such a complex puzzle yet.

But I love to think out of the box.

Like in supernatural. I remember since the second Episode is aired. I think in sweetondean's review I commented that I think Sam's behavior is similar to the Samandriel the angel. And their name is similar too. (maybe just coincidence, maybe not)

So, Sam asked Dean rather forcefully about Cas. He didn't look very surprise that Dean's back but he looked too worried about Cas.

Samandriel's first question to Dean is about Cas

Sam didn't really care about Kevin's safety. Saying his hesitation when Dean asked him to go after the tablet and help Kevin. Not after Dean mentioned Jessica then Sam agreed. Then, when he met Kevin, Sam urged Kevin to tell him where the tablet is. Kevin insisted that it's safe but Sam still asked.

The angel never lend a hand when Kevin was kidnapped by Crowley but when the tablet was in jeopardy, Samandriel came to the rescue. For them prophets are dispensable. There are others prophet to replace Kevin. But there is only one tablet for each race. The tablet is more important that the prophet.

Sam cares more about the tablet than the prophet.

These two facts can't be coincidence. Sam after having left the hunter world for a year suddenly recited Exorcism backwards? Yeah, doesn't add up.

It seems as if Sam has a goal but his goal maybe different than Dean. Add that with the mysterious person outside of Amelia's house ... hmmmm .... there's something fishy there.
# racestaffer 2012-11-16 14:50
But I love to think out of the box.
But ya gotta admit, boxes have their place.

"...the second Episode"
Ah... the "Bible thumping scene" was a big hook for me. I was really happy Garth referenced Wendigo.

I think in sweetondean's review I commented... Samandriel the angel.
Here? Peeps were talking about specific angels way back then? My first instinct was to kick myself for not coming here sooner. Then again, I didn't climb aboard the network airings train until season 3. I was still hoping religious elements (as in faith rather than props) were going to remain metaphorical back then.

maybe just coincidence, maybe not
Well, Dean would say he doesn't believe in coincidence.

Sam ...didn't look very surprise that Dean's back

[Sam] looked too worried about Cas.
Can one be too worried about a "friend"?

[Sam's] first question to Dean is about Cas
Yeah. And there's the whole... so you saw him die? Still mulling spec on that. It would support my sense that something unique connected Sam and Cas during the "Ring of Fire" scene. Everything from the "powwow" on through the Cas/Crowley exchange is just mesmerizing to me. I can't tell you how many times I've played that back {hangs head}. Really. Can't. And shouldn't {sheepish grin}.

Sam didn't really care about Kevin's safety... Not after Dean mentioned Jessica then Sam agreed.
OK, that's something I'll have to watch for in reruns. I'm only barely remembering that. And I don't remember Sam's side of that at all. I was too busy finding it odd that Dean would even bring that up. Cuz he mentioned Jess and Mom, right... rather like Sam had in the beginning. It's not just Sam that's doing and saying things... unexpected.

The tablet is more important that the prophet.
Perhaps I'll come back for the rest... but duty calls.
# racestaffer 2012-11-16 08:23
kaj - Yes, you could be right about Mary's role here. Did you ever wonder, in Darkside of the Moon, if the reason John and Mary were separated in Dark Side was more about something Mary had done than John?

After the episode aired, I formed a spec about why John left, and some story elements they've dropped this season reinforce that spec for me. I think John believed Mary cheated on him and thought he had proof... but he was wrong... er, mostly. I suppose it depends on your definition of "cheated."
# racestaffer 2012-11-16 12:14
And from the so many coincidence I think the property staffs and the creative crew is aware of the subtext. .
Yes, that could facilitate "belief" in the subtext. Doubters say it would be too difficult to pull off. Too complicated. As I've said, I think they overestimate the difficulty. Not because there's *no* challenge there. But I suspect the general perception of the magnitude may be exaggerated. Add to that, we fans (and I'll admit to falling prey to this one) imagine that only a very few members of the Team, showrunner types and writers, would be privy to any "secrets" cuz... ooooh... what if someone intentionally or unintentionally leaked too much?! But... well, that's a matter of faith, or it's absense, huh? If you have faith in the team and let them in on the secret... many hands make for a lighter load. Boy do I know that from my hobby!
# MisterGlass 2012-11-13 22:16
I've read most of the proceeding comments, and I love some of the theories suggested. The three things discussed above that make the most sense for Sam to me are

1) Sam was severely traumatized and suffered a mental breakdown following the loss of Dean
2) Sam became so despondent that he considered suicide and only embraced life again after hitting the dog
3) Sam did look for a way to bring back Dean but was unable to find one that did not require a dark deal

I'd be willing to accept any one of these. The most Sam like of the theories is the third one, because it is analytical, loyal, and for the greater good. It would show both devotion to Dean and learning from past mistakes. The second theory is one I hadn't heard before and is intriguing. Sam did lose it in Mystery Spot and after Dean's death in Season 4, until he was shocked back into himself. After all he has been through, real despair is not out of the question.

The first option would provide continuity with the past and would be an interesting twist. Could it also mean that some of his evanescent flashbacks with Amelia are hallucinations? He is stalking her electronically, and that's never a good sign.

Sadly, I think if the third theory were the case Sam would have admitted it by this point, because it is reasoning Dean could accept and respect. He tried unsuccessfully to free Sam from Hell, afterall. The other two are things Sam would be far less likely to admit, so perhaps one of them may come to pass.

I am not happy with how Sam has been portrayed, especially after the clarity and intensity of Dean's flashbacks. I which Sam's past was up to the same standard.

I've said it before but my personal theory was that Dean would come back to find Sam the deputy of Sheriff Jody, operating out of Sioux Falls as the new Bobby. And now Garth is the new Bobby instead.

Poor Sam.
# eilf 2012-11-13 22:25
As good as the idea of Sam being the new Bobby could be (though I have to say I wouldn't have liked that solution) Sam couldn't do the job - a lot, maybe most, of the hunters hate him or think he is a monster. He would be helping them one minute and having to hide out from them the next.

I wish that they would bring back Jody - she would have banged their heads together and forced them to talk to each other by now
# st50 2012-11-14 00:38

I wish that they would bring back Jody - she would have banged their heads together and forced them to talk to each other by now
YES! I miss Ms. Sheriff.
# shadowhund 2012-11-14 04:34
IMO Sam would be very good in this! But he would have to hide his true identity. I don't know if there are as many hunters out there who think Sam is an evil human being and has to be eliminated. There were only two groups, and they were somehow not trustworthy for me, like "bad" hunters!

Maybe other hunters are not that way! But Sam could pull the strings behind another identity, working in the background, putting someone in the forefront...lik e Garth or .....hmm...Jody Mills (they worked great together)!
# MisterGlass 2012-11-14 20:39
shadowhund and eilf, you make a good point about other hunters' perceptions of Sam. Certainly in Seasons 2-5 he was the enemy. I had some impression in Season 6 though that him hunting with Campbells - even soulless - made him more acceptable, but I do not have anything to back that up. And he helped bring down the leviathans, and I think that would have to make an impression.

I wouldn't mind Garth or Jody being a front for Sam as Bobby. I hope Jody comes back in a respectable role without being killed off.
# E 2012-11-14 08:44
You bring up a good point about honesty here, and it can actually relate to both brothers. Both of them seem to be concealing something from their time apart. If that 'something' was honorable or heroic, they probably would't feel the need to keep it from each other. :(. I really hope that Dean is hiding what he knows because he feels guilty, and we'll fin that what happened wasn't really his fault; maybe he was sabotaged in purgatory and he doesn't even know it. I hope Sam is hiding his experiences because he went and made a deal with the angels, or Crowely or the alpha vamp and he's hiding it because he knows that he shouldn't have gone there and that Dean wouldn't approve. That would mean that he's fallen into the traps that the rest of his family fell into, but at least it would be honorable.
# MisterGlass 2012-11-14 20:41
I agree that Dean is probably feeling guilty about something, whether he deserves to or not. I would understand Sam making some kind of deal, and it has happened often enough in his family.
# GeorgiaRose 2012-11-13 23:07
I thought the Impala that was crashed was the duplicate that the Leviathans who were imitating the brothers were driving...I'd have to go back and see last season's ender again, but thought there was some mention of it.

One thing that bothered me all last season was when Sam rejoined Dean after hunting with Samuel for a year, Sam asked Dean if Dean had even looked for him during that time. Even after Dean reassured him that he'd tried everything he could think of, Sam sought confirmation from Bobby that Dean had actually searched for him. In spite of Bobby’s assurance, Sam still does not look happy, but seems to push his feelings down. In later episodes, Sam makes a couple remarks to Dean about his relationship with Lisa and Ben and I’d swear that he even accuses Dean of playing house for a year without any idea of what Sam was going through. It made me wonder if the fear and resentment he seemed to bury were some of the reasons he didn’t search for Dean. I don’t know if he would have had the same reaction if he had come back to find Dean alone and crazy with grief instead of perceiving him as happy with some kind of “new and improved” family.

Something that actually strengthens that impression for me is the picnic scene with Amelia. It was SO much like Dean’s dream of Lisa that Sam witnesses so many episodes ago that it was a little disturbing. It’s like Sam’s jealousy-driven version of Dean’s situation. Also, it’s such a perfect version that it makes me wonder if Amelia wasn’t sent to Sam by either Crowley or angels to keep an eye on him...she seems tailor-made to draw him in.

I’d love to hear the thoughts of others on any/all.
# eilf 2012-11-13 23:20
You are right Baby and Levia!Baby, never thought of that. But it pretty much had to be Dean's car because there was no indication that the guys took it at the end of the episode where their doubles were killed. We know that Dean and Cas went to get Baby out of storage though so it is probably Occam's Razor that it WAS Baby.

I think your interpretation of how Sam felt about Dean searching for him is not really easy to define - what Sam said before he went to hell and when he came back was all don't try to rescue me it will undo everything that we have done. And when he came back he didn't initially know about L and B and was disappointed in Dean for not trying.

Now whether that is actually how he thought or felt is up for debate, but we can't help what we think, it is how we act out on it that is the issue and I don't think that Sam made any outward sign that he was hurt or jealous. Do you have examples?
# percysowner 2012-11-13 23:50
I haven't rewatched season six lately, but from what I remember, Sam just asked Dean if he looked, more like he was really concerned that Dean HAD done something. Certainly Sam being jealous, or unhappy or hurt that Dean didn't look for him makes no sense in retrospect because he was soulless at the time and didn't really feel much of anything. Interest in what had gotten him out, sure, but SS wasn't capable of hurt or jealousy. After Sam got his soul back I don't remember them revisiting the issue of how he got out because Dean was too afraid that Sam's wall would break. I DO remember that once Sam got his soul back, he was sad that things hadn't worked out with Lisa. In other words, I don't think we can hold how Soulless!Sam initially reacted to Dean against souled Sam. And Souled Sam, didn't resent Dean for having Lisa and couldn't resent Dean for not getting him out because in the end Dean did get his soul out by dealing with Death.
# shadowhund 2012-11-14 04:19
Percy, this is a good explanation, he was soulless at that time! And after Sam was re-souled that issue didn't came up again!

My perception of Sam is also, that he would have been happy for Dean that the Lisa/Dean thing would have matched. And he wanted for Dean to have this other life!

I only don't recognize Sam in S8! How he is coming form A (warehouse) to E (living happily after)..and I loose my connection (a strong one - at least it was once) with the character. I can only ask the question to JC "was it worth to throw Sam's character under the bus?"
# etheldred 2012-11-14 07:02
Soulless!Sam expressed more or less the same feelings as Sam!Sam, presumably because that was what he found in Sam's memories. He didn't resent Dean not rescuing him; he'd left him with Lisa and Ben to try to have a family:

Dean: you been back practically this whole time?! What, did you lose the ability to send a friggin' text message?!

Sam: You finally had what you wanted, Dean.

Dean: I wanted my brother, alive!

Sam: You wanted a family. You have for a long time, maybe the whole time. I know you. You only gave it up because of the way we lived. But you had something, and you were building something. Had I shown up, Dean, you would have just run off. I'm sorry. But it felt like after everything, you deserve some regular life.

And later he reminds Dean of his promise to not try to get him out:

Dean: Good for who? I showed up on their doorstep half out of my head with grief. God knows why they even let me in. I drank too much. I had nightmares. I looked everywhere. I collected hundreds of books, trying to find anything to bust you out.

Sam: You promised you'd leave it alone.

The idea that Sam in s6, souled or unsouled, was ever angry with Dean for not trying to get him out is simply untrue; the scripts show the opposite.
# lala2 2012-11-14 21:49
Soulless Sam sought out Dean after a year b/c he felt "empty." He certainly didn't care if Dean searched for him or not.

Real Sam was not upset w/Dean at all. He was more upset when he thought Dean hadn't gone to be w/Lisa like he asked.
# kaj 2012-11-14 00:34
I clearly remember that Dean was angry at Bobby for not telling him about Sam.

He said and I get it from the script.

Dean: Good for who? I showed up on their doorstep half out of my head with grief. God knows why they even let me in. I drank too much. I had nightmares. I looked everywhere. I collected hundreds of books, trying to find anything to bust you out.

Sam: You promised you'd leave it alone.

Dean: Of course I didn't leave it alone! Sue me! A damn year? You couldn't put me out of my misery?

Bobby: Look, I get it wasn't easy. But that's life! And it's as close to happiness as I've ever seen a hunter get. It ain't like I wanted to lie to you, son. But you were out, Dean.

Dean: Do I look out to you?

And this is when Sam was soulless. He didn't even ask Dean if he looked for him. Dean's the one who said it.

And after Sam was resouled he said :

SAM : So you never even tried, huh?

DEAN : Tried?

SAM :To go live a life...after. You do remember you promised that, right?

DEAN :Yeah, I remember.

SAM :So, why didn't you try?

DEAN :What makes you think I didn't?

SAM :'Cause look at you. Look at this. You're exactly the same.

DEAN :Yeah, you're probably right.

A long pause.

DEAN :I was with them for a year—Lisa and Ben.

SAM :A year?

DEAN nods.

SAM :So then what?

DEAN :Didn't work out.

Here, I think Sam never resent Dean for having a life after he jumped into Hell. He's maybe a bit sad that Dean still hunting but understand where his brother is coming from.

So, for Sam not to look for Dean out of jealousy and revenge is unreasonable. If the writers use that to explain Sam's choice not to look for Dean then it's weak.

Still doesn't explain Sam's OOC behavior.
# etheldred 2012-11-14 06:50
That's more or less the opposite of what happened -- soulless Sam was annoyed with Dean FOR looking for him when he'd promised not to, and souled!Sam was distressed by thinking that Dean hadn't tried to make a life with Lisa, not that he hadn't tried to rescue Sam. Both Sams reacted perfectly consistently with the promise Sam originally asked of Dean, NOT to try to get him out and to move on and live his life.

If only Sam had had good reason to guess Dean was in purgatory and that retrieving him would be a similar danger level to attempting to release Sam from the cage, his actions after Dean's disappearance would be totally consistent with his stance post 5.22 and after. The problem has always been Sam not investigating to determine that Dean was in such a situation, not Sam not trying to get Dean back.
# racestaffer 2012-11-14 01:33
Well, as I said, I think it's easy to close oneself off to the notion, in part because there's no way to have an "ah-ha" moment. But remember, it's not nearly as complicated for our storytellers. For them there aren't thousands of possibilities (anymore). They have the benefit of owning the basic "playbook".

And yes, I get the "sometimes a cigar..." admonition infrequently but regularly. But ask Freud himself - sometimes a cigar ain't a cigar at all. Of course, until the big reveal, you are typically left to wonder what things *are* cigars, and what aren't.

Ben Edlund spoke of teaching poetry to fish in The Man Who Would Be King. He also put before us the notion, "All possible entendres intended." The other thing to think about is that some if not all members of the team don't specialize, narrowly, in writing novels. Ben Edlund wrote one if not two songs for the show, didn't he? The Ghostfacers and Changing Channels TV themes. Songs are poetry so BE may have poetry in him. And BE worked on comics. Like this show, comics are not just a verbal medium, it's visual too.

Not everyone's mind works the same way. And for some, making certain kinds of verbal and imagery connections will come much easier than to others. I think some fans may overestimate how much time and effort would have to go into what I'm proposing because it's not something they have a proclivity for. Plus, understand I'm not saying every writer participates equally in writing sub-story (if it's happening) or that it happens to an equal degree in all episodes. People already think there are "mytharc episodes" and MOTW (non mytharc) episodes.

Back to the show's writers, how does the script editing process work? Do showrunners make helpful suggestions? I wouldn't think a script would have to be penned by solely by Jeremy Carver or Ben Edlund to have some of their influence in there. MySpot really launched the "spec maniac" in me full steam. ManKing was the first time I noticed what I thought was "stage direction." Was that one that BE directed too, BTW? I know he's tried his hand there.

In ManKing, my standout scene I call what I call the "Ring of Fire scene." And, again, without being given the "hunter-speak" handbook, so much is intangible guesswork that, yeah, it's especially easy to pass off. But it's when it seems like you can link "covert communication" to immediate action that the idea feels more solid.

Here's my code-talk interpretation from that transcript...

DEAN Castiel, uh...We need you for a little powwow down here, so come on down.
Observation: It's not a meeting or gathering or bull session. It's a powwow. Indian lingo.


BOBBY Oh, Johnny on the spot.
Interpretation: Cas (or maybe even John?) needs to "hit his mark."

CASTIEL You're still here.
Interpretation: This has no question mark after it but I think it comes off like a question... like he's surprised anyway. This is akin to what I describe above with Sam's "What do you want me to say, Dean?" Cas knows what he's supposed to do but it's a pretty big house. He needs more info. By inviting them to explain why the gang is still where they are, he's looking for info on where his spit/mark is and what's going to happen when hits it. And that info is given to him as follows:

SAM Yeah, we had to bury the bodies.
Observation: [I'm doing this all by fallible recall, BTW] Sam reaches a bit in front and waves his hand a bit. It's kinda like they burried the bodies right under the floorboards. Really? Don't you think they really would have burried bodies outside? No. Sam's is jesturing to the floor between himself and Cas.

DEAN And we found a little whiskey. Thanks for coming.
Observation/Interpretation: Remember I mentioned indian lingo. Keeping with that language theme, what would you call whiskey? Fire water. I suspect in the hunter-speak handbook, when talking to an angel, "fire water" is holy oil that you plan to light up.

CASTIEL How can I help?

SAM Oh, look.
Interpretation: Watch for visual-based covert communication.

SAM continues - We, um - we have a new plan. We think we've finally figured out a way to track down Crowley.
Observation: Sam has a book in one hand. He's pretending it has something in there relevant to the plan. Why would he need/bother to do that? It presumably doesn't. And the team doesn't need that prop to capture Cas. Sam could just refer to intel. But interestingly.. . Sam's only holding the book with one hand. Sam's other hand is bobbing up and down. But to me, the gesture is not wholly natural looking. While Sam's doing this, Cas approaches. Now, I've not been on a TV set so I don't know if directors/camer a men will give hand signals to help move actors into positions... but it reminded me of ground crews signaling a plane on the tarmack. Forward. Forward. Forward. Good. I'm not a con artist either but TV and Film make me think Sam's holding the book was partly to give him a reason to talk with his hands while at the Sam time the book is meant to distract the view of outsiders from his hands. Cas shouldn't be distracted tho... Sam told him to "look."

CASTIEL What is it?

BOBBY (lights a match and drops it on the floor by Castiel's feet, trapping him in a ring of holy fire)It's you.


CASTIEL What are you doing?

DEAN We gotta talk.
[Deleting some stuff here]

DEAN You know who spies on people, Cas? Spies.

CASTIEL Okay, just wait. I don't even know what you mean.
Observation/Interpretation: Cas is somewhat flustered here. That's kinda odd because later he'll get to be much more "in control" / forceful. Cas doesn't know what's being covertly communicated.

[Deleting some lines]

CASTIEL It's hard to understand. It's hard to explain. Just let me go. Let me out and I can -
Observation: Cas is struggling with the covert communication.

DEAN You got to look at me, man.
Observation: To help Cas out, Dean is about to include some visual communication in what he says so he needs Cas to turn around and watch him.

DEAN continues - You got to level with me and tell me what's going on. Look me in the eye and tell me you're not working with Crowley.
Observation: Dean's got the head nod action happening here. I think it's all "no" but I don't remember for sure. Do NOT talk openly about what's going on. Do NOT look me in the eye...

(Castiel looks at Dean, but then looks away)
Observation: Gee, even the transcript has Cas looking Dean in the eye {shake head no} - grin. If I remember right, Cas's eyes first dart towards Bobby before he looks away. I think he's telling Dean it's "Bobby" who has been working with Crowley on the level of the secret story. Uh, or, maybe this happens a couple lines down, but I'll leave it here.

[Deleting some lines]

CASTIEL I did it to protect you. I did it to protect all of you.

SAM Protect us how? By opening a hole into monsterland!
Observation: Sam gestures outward and I think maybe with only one hand, which doesn't seem the most obvious gesturing choice. His hand seems to gesture to Bobby. Bobby is "the monster." I got this impression in Mommy Dearest before that too, BTW. Lostsa head and eye action in the Lenore scene. There, when Sam says they could use a monster with claws and sympathy, his eyes seemed to me to dart where Bobby should be in the basement. Not sure there cuz my old fashioned aspect ratio TV cuts off the wide frame portions. I couldn't see Bobby but my sense was he should have been on that side of Sam.

BOBBY He's right, Cas. One drop got through, and it was Eve. And you want to break down the entire dam?
Interpretation: This will be story "code" so I won't spec here.
Observation: This is one of the big dramatic moments of the scene for me even though I don't know what the secret story this is about. But when Bobby says this, Cas is actually looking at Dean. And he strongly reacts. I've never been wholly sure what Cas's emotion/impulse was at that moment. Does he want to attack Bobby for being a betrayer? Whatever he's reacting to, Dean is privy to it and he does that... look the person in the eyes and slowly shake his head no move. You can visibly see Cas "get a grip" after Dean "warns him off."

CASTIEL To get the souls. I can stop Raphael. Please, you have to trust me.

SAM Trust you?! How in the hell are we supposed to trust you now?

CASTIEL I'm still me. I'm still your friend. Sam...I'm the one who raised you from Perdition.
Observations: Another dramatic moment. The camera shows us everyone's reaction though it has to pan move around to do so. Sam is surprised. Bobby is surprised and possibly suspicious. Dean doesn't really react at all. He seems to be carefully gauging everyone else's reaction.

The impression I get from everyone's reactions including Cas's is that he screwed up somehow by saying this. Not just like... oh, I revealed a big secret. I mean, gee, shouldn't folks be grateful? But I won't spec further.

SAM What? Well, no offense...But you did a pretty piss-poor job of it.
Observation: If I remember right Cas and Sam lock eyes. Sam seem firm but not excessively bitter. Cas nods a little. It was surprisingly controlled? civil? Like there was "an understanding" between them.

There's soooo more to the scene but I'm getting Post = Too Long with a full scene dissection. So I guess we'll call it quits, early.
# racestaffer 2012-11-14 02:08
PS - More regarding "Johnny on the Spot." Not that I refer to this as the "Ring of Fire" scene. It's possible in "hunter-speak" (code talk) Johnny on the Spot is close to "Funkytown" in its specificity and refers to a ring of fire scene. It *is* a Johnny Cash Song. And I can't remember if one of these posts mentioned Dark Side of the Moon which was what really "sensitized" me to possible "hunter-speak." The "bell" for me there actually included Johnny Cash. I was already sensitive to having the name John come up. And Johnny Cash is "The Man in Black." Given the genre, Dean's car, and John's temperament, and Fulsome Prison Blues, "Johnny Cash" really pricked my ears up when Ash said it... and the whole line was just a huh? Oh... that's gotta be "Funkytown." Ash was describing the places and people he'd crossed paths with in Heaven. He starts off addressing Dean, BTW but ends looking at Sam... and he says something like... "Johnny Cash, Andre the Giant, Einstein. Sam, the man mixes a mean White Russian."

So Johnny reminds me of PapaJohn. Sam constantly gets height jokes. Might Dean be "Einstein?" He get's a lot of not so smart/GED etc jokes/reference s. And then how off the wall is the rest? Where was the writer's head at when he decided Albert Einstein mixes a mean white russian? Seriously... what "inspires" that?!

Oooohh... I'm almost tempted to go looking for the exact quote. Was it "The man?" And Cas rescues the guys from an explosion by popping them to Belarus? And he went to Heaven with the idea of being the new Sheriff in town. "The Man?"

Sorry. I didn't know about the Sheriff or Belarus then. BUT... going with my FauxActor spec... Is Misha of Russian descent? I think it's Eastern Europe at least.

So, when ManKing aired I was already sensitive to Johnny Cash as being a possible element of hunter-speak. And then Cas gets a Johnny on the spot remark and winds up in a Ring of Fire. How could bells not start ringing for me?!
# racestaffer 2012-11-14 02:55
Oh... and of course Sam has the book so he can say "look." So the prop, which has no strong reason to be there if this is really about catching Cas, has 3 possible reasons in doing this"improv" scene:

1) It gives Sam a reason to say "look" cuz he wants to communicate with his hands, not his voice.

2) To a degree, it gives Sam a reason to "talk with his hands" in a seemingly casual way. Sometimes if people are trying to remember something... or in this case focusing their mind on something and following a train of thought... they will, like, shake a finger. What Sam does is kinda like that, but if memory serves his palm was flat and perpendicular to the ground... so, as I've said... it's not quite natural to me.

3) Like con artists and magicians, I think, the book provides a concealing or visually distracting tool. People may be less likely to notice Sam's hand is bobbing cuz they're too busy looking at the book. But Cas, having been told by Sam to "look," will keep looking Sam's way until something registers as visual communication. Cas will notice the hand not holding the book.

Believe it or not, I don't know the whole plot of the Sting. I think it's a movie where you are mostly made aware of con artisrty in action. But I also think either Newman's or Redford's character appears to get killed but that part of the con job was withheld from the audience. Yes? So obviously writers can write the kind of stuff I'm talking about. It's just that I think usually... Leverage being a TV example, the viewers are let in that this kind of thing is going on from the outset. What I'm saying is the writers... probably EK himself, opted not to let us know. He once told us something to the effect that the human hunters "are" the angels of Supernatural. When Cas came on the scene some fans said things like... Well, human "angels" was probably the original plan but over the years it's been modified. I never believed that. "The hunters are the angels doing gods work..." sounded to central to what EK built the vision of his work around to have abdicated it. My guess was what he said remained true, it was the fan's assessment of what he meant that was off... no doubt because he wanted it to be off.

And when Jim Beaver talked about his abominable snow monster movie... I knew that sounded off. I bet in some EK/trickstery way it woouldn't really be a lie though. After all, he was talking about a monster. SPN does monsters. We've had Norse mythology influences too so he might have meant a frost giant (not they referenced one recently). And now Cas is essentially "blinkin like a blinking beacon" in Purgatory and Garth is a dentist... Cuz Hermie (Hermes/Gabriel ) doesn't like to make toys... Oh, shame on you! And Rudolf (my fave Xmas special) was in an SPN episode. Some showrunner fed JB the abominable line. He didn't come up with it himself. I'll bet money on it. A sympathetic monster with claws and teeth? And of course Bobby "died" but returned. You know why, right? Because Bumbles bounce.

Like balls, actually.

Sooo... movie may have stretched the truth. But he probably was essentially working on an abominable snow monster project. (LOL)
# shadowhund 2012-11-14 10:25
hi racestaffer-

do you mean that all physical reactions in special moments are like a code? But for what reasons? Where is the decode pattern?
And to which part of the Winchester Saga is it illuminating?
I have a little problems to understand what this all is telling you....and me..... to an extension. But it seems you have lots of fun with your analysis!

Maybe its the language issue, I am german and learned only because of SPN english again (refreshed my school english) that I only can say ...oh! Okay, I don't know more than before!
Also I have more connections with emotions, that's why I have right now some issues with Sam's part of the Winchester Saga!
# Nate 2012-11-14 13:39
I am hoping there was more to his time off, especially from the time Dean vanished to the time he hit the dog. I still think Sam doing the reverse demon spell in the first episode of this season, to Dean's suprise saying "Where did you learn that?" I took that as clue to something we would see further that Sam was hunting (or something), and learned this new trick before he stopped looking for Dean. I can almost understand that Sam would stop looking, from his conversation with Dean and Amelia last episode, but I would also not feel 100% OK with this "I just didn't feel like it." That does not seem very Sam. I PRAY Crowley was not somehow involved, like he has a secret deal with Sam and Crowley promised something to Sam in return for not looking for Dean.
# racestaffer 2012-11-14 15:51
shadowhund - Wow! I'm always impressed by the non-native speakers of English who join us on the forums! We Americans are bad about foreign languages. Heck, we're not all the facile with our own. I've got a whole 4 years of high school Spaish to my name. That's it {sigh}.

Do you mean that all physical reactions in special moments are like a code?

No.... First, words like all, always and never make me... itch. Speaking in absolutes is a trap. It's usually soooo easy to be proven wrong (LOL). But as I think I said, fans already think there's a division between Mytharc episodes and non-mytharc episodes. So if there *is* a story that involves covert communication, it doesn't have to be in process 24/7.

Where is the decode pattern?

Believe me, I've posted requests, more than one, for the "hunter-speak" dictionary. So far my requests seem to have fallen on deaf ears (ROTFLOL). As I said, for me the best "sign post" (if it's even happening) is when something makes me squint and say, "Huh?" And for someone whose native language is different from the writers, using that as a process would likely be particularly challenging. When Dean said, "From the moment you climbed into my ride, you've been deceiving me," it made me go... "Huh? Uh, yeah... I guess..." Now sure, my "sensibilities" on how "natural" that statement was might be off base. Or the writers might have floundered a bit. Or... they had Dean say it *that* way because it fits the overt story context OK but it also serves the sub-story. It's dual purpose so it's "fit" into the scene as we understand it is not a 100% perfect fit.

How do I decide which is the most likely explanation? Well, you have to really pay attention to everything else that gets said. If nothing else "rings any bells", it's probably not covert communication. It takes 2 or more people to communicate. If Dean is "code talking", there's a good chance he won't be just "giving," he'll be "receiving" too.

To be fair, I was also "sensitized" by the picture on the wall, which I think we saw even before Dean opened his mouth. My nickname is "racestaffer." Naturally a picture like that would catch my eye. And that picture also had me going, "Huh?" Have you been in many hotel rooms? How many of them had auto racing art on the walls? Maybe if they were near Indianapolis Motor Speedway (LOL), but Kearney, MO? That seems weird. I started thinking about the colors of the cars, cuz I wonder about possible color codes in the show. And I checked out the numbers, cuz I wonder about number codes. And that's when I noticed the second weird thing. The fact that the #64 was prominent while it seemed like maybe the # on the white car had been purposefully obscured. Eh... maybe too many numbers would be hard to decipher if it's code? And on top of it all, the artwork made it clear what race track it was. Not all racing art would do that. In fact that may be the minority. The track lends itself to speculation on my part, but I won't bore you with that.

Sooo... the racing art strikes me as "unusual" with potential for code embeded in. Dean's sentence sounds just a little off to me. AND Dean's sentence also has one strong and one weak connection to the artwork. Weak... "climb" suggests up, not down. High, not low. The picture "up" on the wall behind Dean? Strong... my ride seems to be a car reference. The art has cars... it even has a black car like Dean's ride. Not all racing art has a black car in it.

So one weird thing you shrug off. Two weird things, you maybe shrug off. But two weird things that close together that relate to each other? Like Dean, I don't believe in coincidence!

And to which part of the Winchester Saga is it illuminating?

Currently, none. As you've noted, I enjoy the "exercise." SPN is kind of my "mind expanding drug" only it's legal and I don't think it'll be lethal if I overdose on it (LOL). And I realize finding anyone inclined to share that journey may be quite a long shot. But one step beneath figuring out the secret story is developing a little faith that at least the Team is working on something and maybe some stuff that seems "off" right now will make more sense down the road. If some folks are really unhappy with things and don't want to cling to stay mired in that... if they are looking for some hope... that's what embracing "signs" of a covert story can give a measure of. The "destination" here is not ah-ha... "It's the woman in white with the candlestick in the conservatory" (reference to the game Clue if not obivous). And Mary ids the woman in white... and Sam is the candlestick, and... (hee). It's more like... OK... They're speaking Russian right now. I don't understand Russian but I know a foreign language when I hear someone speak it. And I'm going to hold out hope the Team will provide the Russian to English (or German) translation before this is over. If someone is speaking in Chinese, or Farsi... or any language you don't know... you still know they're talking right? And you give them the benefit of the doubt that they are exchanging coherent thoughts. You don't say... oh, I don't recognize the words so it must not be human speech.

I've pointed out what I think are signs of "human speech" but saying things we cannot fully understand right now. Maybe you... hehehehe... "run with that," or let it drop away as madness, or something in between. {shrug} I tried. And if nothing else, maybe you'll wander somewhere else someday and meet another person who talks crazy like me. And you'll tell him or her where to find me... and I'll be grateful {grin}.

Warning - "While typing", random thoughst: Add "story" and "dream" to possible interpretations of "the ride." And of course the "I ran." Could be related to ideas of "I ran with it" ...took a position of creative an/or organizational leadership. For instance, there are 3 better knowm Greco-Roman gods of dreams with Morpheus kinda of considered the "alpha," the most important or the leader. So, if your brother is Morpheus and you get separated but your still in a dreamscape... you run with it. Alternately, if Sam is a meatsuit for someone/some thing, that thing could look at Sam a bit like a machine. When it's alive it's a self sustaining machine but if it's not alive or barely alive you may have to run it. So when "Sam" speaks of losing his brother and the world falling in... he is speaking of human Sam's experience. But the "I* in "I ran" is not human Sam... it's "Lucifer" and/or FauxSammySmith (or whoever).
# PaintedWolf 2012-11-15 01:22
Hi racestaffer, I must say your theories and speculation are quite interesting. I'm not typically a fan of this kind of thinking myself, just in that I don't often do it, but it's fun to step outside of the box every now and then!
Honestly, though, deep down I'm kind of hoping there isn't some super secret story going on here, that SPN is what it is: two brothers on the road hunting monsters, but that's probably just me. I'm sentimental that way!
BTW, do you think like this all the time or just where SPN is concerned? I enjoy something intellectually meaty just as much as the next guy, but man, I'm pretty sure I might have gone stir crazy by now! ;-)
# E 2012-11-15 08:08
I kind of like the idea of a secret story to some extent. I was wondering though, does a secret story, in the way that you are talking about it ever get revealed in it's entirety? Or does it stay secret for the most part. Does the secret story change it's basic premise from season to season on the show, or is it continual? I mean is it the same secret story for you since the pilot or has one ended and another began?

I am always looking for hidden clues, strange emphasis on seemingly mundane dialogue that changes or clouds it's meaning. I guess though, that I am not willing to take things too far. I mean, how do you know when you've gone from finding hidden clues to the secret story that are relevant and intentional to ones that aren't intentional and are just ideas that we create in our heads form disparate bits of information that carry meaning just for us? How do you know what to keep and what to discard?
# racestaffer 2012-11-15 10:33
Ahhhh... Here's where an indulgence in that extra fangirl level comes into play for me now. Normally when I post, usually at one "haunt", it never occurs to me anyone from the show might read it. In fact, I never understand posters how act like forums are a voting booth. They don't discuss. They make their proclamations, give praise or criticism, and disappear for a week. Really? I guess that's about catharsis. But I'll admit... there was this ooooone time... I fangirlishly flirted with the notion that someone connected to the show had not only been reading, s/he had actually posted.

It was after MySpot. This was one of my "formative" episodes in trying to figure out the messages of SPN. I was very hung up on that episode. Loved it for the entertainment value but I wasn't sure what Trickster was trying to tell Sam. I was very against the whole Dean's deal storyline. And I can't remember if I'd already spec'ed a way out from the Snow White / Sleeping Beauty stuff we'd gotten earlier. If time runs out on Dean's deal and you haven't figured a way out yet kill him... but in a way that you can try to revive him. His contract was for a year. If he doesn't get his year, his contract may be null and void. It would fit Sam's having been pre-law too. And then, a bit after MySpot, I imagined that if time ran out, Sam could have Trickster drop Dean in that "Bermuda Triangle" until they figured out a way to keep Dean outta Hell. I like Trickster. Always have... even before they cleaned him up. Actually liked him a smidge less in Hammer. That felt a bit "fake" and I chalked it up to code talking. Anyway, notice Trickster never said he killed the missing man. "He said he didn't believe in wormholes, so... I dropped him in one." We've never seen Trickster kill anyone have we? Trickster is all about information and mis-information . Trickster has a "rep" but that don't mean he earned it... physically anyway (hee). And Crowley... OK with him we've seen some wicked stuff, including just last night. But Crowley is Morpheus or on that team. He's our actor and stage-blood supernatural creature. Did you hear what he said after "torturing" the angel? "Barely scratched the surface with that one..." He seemed to be a young... novice-like angel. What more could Crowley get out of him? No... what Crowley was saying was that there was hardly a (real) scratch on the guy. That was staged. The Great and Powerful Oz... was really smoke and mirrors. In the Niveus Pharm/Brady episode, "Dean" either legitimately knew Crowley or he instinctively knew this about Crowley (or is there a difference? - hee). That's why he trusted Crowley so easily. Same with Benny. "Dean's" history with "Benny" goes beyond Purgatory... assuming Dean even spent a year there.

But I digress. I do that. A lot {sheepish grin}. I *was* back at TVguide-dot-com after MySpot. Trickster seems to want what's best for Sam. I really felt he did. But dude, you just showed him what'll happen if he tries to hunt alone. "Like it or not... this is life without him." Something to that effect. Well, I doubt Sam likes it. But at that point... in that story... telling Sam to just say OK... Dean's going to hell, I'll just be good with that and have a normal life? I just... I just couldn't believe a "trickster" would be suggesting that to Sam. And my posted advice eventually wound up being... I like Trickster, Sam... but ignore him. USE him as a model. Figure out a trickstery way to save Dean!

Perhaps before my musings and posting got that far. While I was still puzzling about whether Trickster was saying what he seemed to be saying... cus it just felt wrong... blah... blah... A poster with a name I didn't recognize showed up. I wish I'd jotted down the name. I didn't. S/he only post once or twice. Three at most but I think less. At least as far as I noticed or knew. And I watched for a long time but, as I've alluded to, I eventually forgot the name. I don't remember exactly what was said. I had a sense that the individual was partly trying to explain what s/he thought was Trickster PoV and/or the message... but I had this mental block to whatever was being communicated on that score. And then the other aspect of the post seemed very PC to me. Oh, it's so cool to see so many people with so many "takes" on this stuff. And I don't think any of them are right or wrong. They're all valid.

Now, I understood where that notion was coming from, but I didn't "appreciate" it as much then as I do now. Back then (not that I posted this, I don't think) I was like... Yes, that's lovely, and not wrong "in spirit", But from myself, alone, there have been 2000 specs and many of them are mutually exclusive. There's a lot to *not* embrace on the forums... a lot of which comes from me (LOL-sigh). Anyway... my "mental block" with this poster regarding the block the writers had already left me with plus this all-embracing "PC" part really made me wonder... Is this the writer of the episode or at least someone closely associated with the show? And because s/he disappeared so fast... and because there is that fangirl dreamer in there... I guess I haven't wholly been disabused of the idea even if, in my head, I know better {sheepish grin}.

In any event... I "get it" more now... that all-embracing part anyway. Why does it matter whether or not the writer intended there to be a connection between Mendota, the character, and Mendota, VA? [Come on, ya gotta give me Ed Gein, right?] There IS a connection because *I* see the connection. Gosh, I see it plain as day! No one is grading me on how accurate I am in guessing the writers' intentions. Not as far as I know. OK, other fans do... they think I'm nuts and may avoid me as a result. But I could still look for the connection and not post about it. In fact, some things I type never make it online... but mostly I just ...let loose, damn the consequences... with spec/analysis. Anyway, and as I said... what if I magically was able to very accurately figure out the sub-story today based on keen intuition of which connections the writers intended and superb reasoning and creative thought. [I possess little of this, BTW so there's no risk of me giving you "the answers" regarding the stories]. What's the prize for being "right" in that I get where the story is going before the writers take us there? There's no prize for that. In fact, I used to have a big guilty streak when I first started specing about hunter-speak. I still think one of the many reasons I get few takers in this type of conversation is because it can feel akin to reading spoilers. Oh... Cas is God and Crowley is the Devil but they are really both carved from human John! Yea me, I figured it out. Uh... oh :-( I figured it out. But I only feel occasional twinges of guilt now because I know if I get one or two little specs left, that'sll be about my max. And I can have fun on the chase with an occasional small victory here and there. I have lots of Sam in me but, in this (and possibly "this" being rather SPN-specific) I seem more Dean-like.
# kaj 2012-11-16 04:18
Ooo racestaff, what's this about sleeping beauty you mentioned.

Actually I toyed with the idea of Sam taking the Trickster's advise about Dean's soul. It's so much fun since Sam was so driven at the time. Giving him bone will lead to him finding a full chest of pirate's gold coins. And the result is mind blowing as it open up many plot line and many path that Season 4 could have been. :D
# racestaffer 2012-11-16 10:39
Sleeping Beauty? I think the spec has come up a few times over the years. Too many flavors to go into. And I really *must* get to work. Plus - The rest of your post "does not compute" for me. Maybe after some go juice (LOL)?! I soooo need coffee right now.
# racestaffer 2012-11-16 10:49
Ah... OK, almost turned off the computer but, yeah. Dragons, pirates, leprachauns... all about the gold. Of course, as they say, all that glitters is not gold. And if ya chase it, you might just wind up a "pro" in Tinseltown. And that's poetry for ya. Cuz I don't even get what I'm typing anymore. Maybe it's not me typing at all. Maybe I've ben a'mused (ROTFL).
# kaj 2012-11-16 12:11
Giving him bone will lead to him finding a full chest of pirate's gold coins.

I mean it as not in literal. I mean that Sam in S3 was so driven that if he took the trickster advise to heart then he will find not only a way to save Dean but a whole lot of things about Demons plan and could very well steer the path of S4 to different direction. Sam only needed to be tricky.

When he said, "You are each others' weakness and the bad guys know that", the trickster practically said that "The bad guys can very well manipulate you, Sam. Open your eyes and be smart about it."
# racestaffer 2012-11-16 13:13
Oh, not literal, I got. More than one Winchester has been on a "quest for gold" so to speak, or so it has seemed to me. Campbells too. I wonder where Naomi stands on that matter?

And "Castiel" is a Russian, Archangel Blue cat after all? {grin}. I wonder if he's the cat who ate the canary?
# racestaffer 2012-11-16 13:40
PS - And yes... I always thought Sam should blow off Trickster's message... at least to the extent that I understood it... and use Trickster, perhaps as a co-conspirator and definitely as a role model. "Natural order," bah humbug!

And I almost never call him Gabriel, BTW. He'll always be Trickster to me. I have self-identified as a Priestess of the Temple of Trickster now and again over the years. And the funny thing is, I'm not a huge fan of the episode Tall Tales. Now, conceptually, I love it. And although I realize Trickster can take any form, I still hold out hope we'll see RSJr again one day. He rocks that role! But humor *is* more fickle than drama and Tall Tails didn't, oh, here I go again... didn't nail it on this end.

OK, every so often I'm allowed to have a mind in the gutter day, right? Um... right?
# racestafferracestaff 2012-11-17 10:27
Rereading... Bone. Chest. Really? Oh, come on. No wonder I had a mental block on that one. Remember, in the beginning I was in largely attracted to the movie buff. OK, that's still making me giggle. Anyway, ya gotta admit, he is something of a hooker.
# racestafferracestaff 2012-11-17 10:39
Ah! Slaps self upside the head. Yes. Yes. Sam probably should have taken Trickster's advice deeply in to his heart! Holy crow! 4 and half friggin' years and I had to come here to get that?

Oh! Now I remember how Sam hitting the dog got me to Meg Ryan! In my head I started saying, "I am the idjit. I am the idjit." and then it just transformed to "I am the dog? I am the dog!"

Yep, that was the dropped connection.
# GeorgiaRose 2012-11-14 18:23
Thank you all for your comments...I'm just a newbie to the series and have enjoyed your insight.
# PaintedWolf 2012-11-15 01:14
Hi GeorgiaRose, and welcome! It's always good to hear about new people discovering the show.
# racestaffer 2012-11-15 09:21
I'm extending a now burried conversation with Vivian about psychological with a new post.

Wow! I think the show is drawing a lot of inspiration from the Ed Gein case, and I mean long-term. Can you say "Skin" for instance? Mendota is the name of the mental health facility where the guy wound up.

Of course, there's still "all possible entendres" to consider. I initially forgot the "Assylum" since an area lake with the same name is more a part of my everyday life. Of course, I dismissed the lake initially, and with it anything local, and went to WikiP. And actually, the facility didn't come up from my initial search. I remembered it and looked it up later. I'm not a WI native so I've heard of Ed Gein and wasn't surprised to see his name in the entry for the facility, but I hadn't realized he'd been housed there. And I didn't know too much beyond his name and that he was one very twisted murderer. So, now I know more and, whoa... so many SPN elements in that story/WikiP entry!

My WikiP search for Mendota looked unfruitful at first. Only handful of towns came up and little to nothing else. So I figured I'd follow some links and at least skim "History" sections if there were any. One entry has that jumped out at me: Mendota, VA. The entry explains the Indian translation of Mendota. Bend in the river. In SPN, it's the river Styx and/or the River of Dreams, I'm guessing. Amusingly, that river bend is so vast and complete "you can float downstream for several hours and take out at a location that is only a few hundred feet from where you put in." He, he, he... non-mytharc episodes? The Team re-setting us to S1/2... or bringing us back around in some fashion (more realistic, perhaps) to "The End" as I've always felt they would? Both? Something else?

The other compelling factoid of this location is that it is "a component of the Johnson City-Kingsport- Bristol, TN-VA" area "commonly known as the Tri-Cities region". Note that Ms. Mendota's name was Delta. 3-sided.This region breaks down to John, son, King, sport, & Bristol. Easy to spec the 1st 4. And Bristol was the locale in Unforgiven.

So it's back to wondering if Dean or John.. or Cas... (and/or Michael or...) is a fallen angel... a guardian angel. But because he has chosen to be a fallen angel he thinks God is angry at him since he keeps failing to save the people he feels it is his job to protect. If anything, God seems to be purposefully attacking these people because He's spiteful (or so it seems to Dean and/or John and/or Cas) It's kind of a Greco-Roman Hera/Hercules story melded to a Judeo-Christian angel story.

And this is actually the oreo cream story level. There will be two others, not just one. That's the humans mixed with angels story. There's also a humans mixed with gods of dreams story. Dean and Cas are fighting over what roles they are playing in a dream that is relevant to all this. We see it in ManKing very overtly and we see it (I think) more subtly here. Dean thinks he should play a certain role in this story/dream... but Cas thinks it should be him... or that the story/dream should go differently than Dean envisions it or both. Cas may be trying to mend the Dean-God relationship even as the dream is meant to repair some other relationship (or person). This is way Cas changed the way Dean "remembered" the escape from Purgatory. I suspect none of these flashbacks are real but, if they are, what Cas showed Dean was not. That was covert communication. Not that Cas was forceful that Dean needed to really see or look at this. Those are cues to visual code talking. And unless my aspect ration cut off something significant, this wasn't like look at the race car on the wall... look at my hand bobbing next to the book. So the whole vision was a message of some sort.

And I may be over-reaching but I think you'll find that different types of code talking are more common with different "players". That may have to do with "channeling" and some angels/demons/g ods/shapeshifte rs being promiscuous about their hosts/appearanc e and others tending to like to keep "closer to home." Even to me that sounds like something worth striving for yet had to believe it can be practically juggled given the RL constraints of TV storytelling. But it is an impression I've gotten before. And, logically, it would make sense. If we have novice and veteran "players" (more on this, below) and because some are more visually oriented and others more language oriented, etc., etc., a "universal translator" would have to speak several languages and use languages appropriate for the person s/he is talking to. The injections of Spanish, Japanese and Indian language... The occasional 60's pop instead of rock. Someone trying to "talk music" but from different eras or gravitating to different genres....

I've been posting about SPN being very "lessony" since the beginning, or nearly so, I think. And that would be my posting launch in S3 (hee). And I was queing up my tape and, OK, watching the stage direction scene just cuz. Didja notice how Garth slurs "It's cool" so that it comes out S'cool. Uh huh. Or was that school? {hee}. And again, you might think I'm reaching... BUT there's something else Garth said that I interpreted very differently than someone else has. I read a little of the round table discussion (I think I saw it there) and someone mentioned Garth saying Sega Genesis. I blinked. I thought Garth said psychogenesis. His yogi and his psychogenesis. Which I imagined was code talk for psycho (or maybe "Psycho" Genesis).
# kaj 2012-11-16 10:56
The witch that Mrs. Tran hired is named Mendota, again. What can you see from this :D
# racestaffer 2012-11-16 11:44
OK - Did I not just say... real life work now? (ROTFLOL)

Uh... {scratch, scratch} Maybe... Kevin is a twisted SoB????
OK, a different 2 letter abbreviation just came to mind... since Dean recently brought up Oedipus...

And then of course there is Dean spending time with the faeries. Why do I think that A) was not what it appeared as a plot development and B) faeries here is so not PC? Ya know... I'm a nice girl. Must the show take me there? And, oh please tell me I'm not pulling that from... uh... Baby's trunk.
# racestaffer 2012-11-17 08:30
Does it ever stop? Aw geez... I was gonna add "seriously" ... but that would be hunter-speak and there are probably rules about its usgae that I don't understand. Like the good which means it positively and the bad witch means it negatively or something.

Anyway. Not oreo. Pie, of course.
And Sam hit a dog.

I'm an idjit {sigh}
# racestaffer 2012-11-15 09:34
E - Yes... notice several times I've included "(if ever)" or something to that effect to my code talk / secret story posts. I am a bit fearful and consider it a very real possibility that they won't go significantly overt at all. If they do, it'll be at the very end of the series. EK has talked about a "coda". I have long expected we'll get a twist and then, quite likely a second twist at the end of all this. The show tries to be many things to many people. Will one ending really suffice? I'm not sure how happy I'll be if this goes for a menodramatic bittersweet ending where one boy was killed by his mom in a fit of post-partum depression and the other watched his father drink himself to an early geave and wound up in an insane asylum. Something like that would be "a" reasonable ending for a show like this... and if this were a movie or a book... if it were a "one and done" experience, I'd embrace that more easily. But for some of us TV can be like inviting old friends in for a visit. I don't want to remember the show with the ending I described. I don't want that... forever... for our guys. So I expect the show to go there... hopefully first... and then Newman (or Redford) will surprise us by getting up after he's been shot in The Sting. By having an overt story and a secret story you can have your cake and ieat it too. Or try to. The ehe question becomes... do the secret "supernaturals" get the happy ending and the humans get the the bittersweet, loss and moving on ending? Vice versa? Subset of both in each story for each "J"? Who knows. Maybe I'm in the assylum and just haven't figured it out yeat (LOL).
# racestaffer 2012-11-15 12:21
PaintedWolf - I think I addressed a little of my "secret story" expectations, above. Never sure what I wind up deleting as I type, & I gotta be quick here. The writers have very much tried to be be "all things to all people" with this show. That has been a thorn in the side of many fans. The most vocal fans tend (with exceptions, like me) to want all epic mytharc and angsty drama all the time. I think folks who gravitate to the more playful and comfortable (procedural cop show) aspects tend to be less chatty but they're out there. The show has given us a B&W b-horro homage (Monster Movie), a caper episode (Red Sky - tuxedos & safes), a cop action flick (Night Shifter), a western (Frontierlan), etc, etc... That's actually something I adore about this show. Which means I think they will try to serve the fanbase that gravitates to the light and the base that gravitates to the darkness. Having an overt and a secret story gives you a number of options on how to serve both sides. They may go all bitter-sweet with the overt human story and The Sting with the covert story. Or the reverse. In the beginning, I always felt that Dean had faith and John (his god the father) and the family business and not faith in the supernature (even God is bad) whereas Sam had more faith in the supernatural (he prayed to his God the Father and tried to save werewolves) but less faith in the "human god the father" and the family business. And that ultimated Sam needed to be reconciled with John the father and and needed to be reconciled with God the Father. But it may be Dean's inner Michael/Apollo or Raphael/Apollo or someone that needs to be reconciled with his father. And now I see there's more to this and what I expected then was perhaps too-too- flip flop and simplistic. We're going to have a love triange in here somewhere, for sure. Human... Angel... both? I don't know.

Eh, I said quick, huh? Anyway, the point is... humans here are trying to both help and hurt the supernaturals both directly and "by example." Supernaturals are trying to both help and hurt the humans both directly and "by example." Sometimes "by example" involved make-believe. And int the collection of overt and covert... human and supernatural arcs... I expect to see some darkness... and some light.

Two tricks to greater contentment with the show may be to:

1) Take a moment to "profile" your showrunners and writers based on what they've given you so far. What is meaningful to *them*...not you. They seem to be "Jacks of all trades."

2) Recognize and try to accept that means there is a lot on their plates. They are trying to give us all a little of everything. That may mean they can't be 100% perfect at fulfilling your wishes 100% of the time. Be generous to them and your fellow fans. We want our Xmas presents too! And no one will be getting lumps of coal. But we probably won't be getting Porsches either. They're working on a limited budget in time as well as the family bank account.

PS - Hate these friggin security codes by they way! I only get 'em right maybe 1/3 of the time!
# racestaffer 2012-11-15 12:30
PS - And I really hate, hate, hate posting sites with no edit function. I'm sorry about how difficult to follow my posts get sometimes thanks to the errors in typing! :-( It's not like they''d all, otherwise, be easy to follow if no words (or names) got omitted and they were all spelled right.
# Alice 2012-11-15 12:52
You know, instead of posting complaints like this you could have asked and gotten the facts.

You can edit posts, if you register and login while posting. This is a known fact on this site. My posting program for security reasons will not let unregistered posters edit posts. Plus, every time you comment while logged in, you don't have to type in the characters at the bottom. Registration is free and very little personal information is required. Personal information that is never shared.

Please let me know if you need to know how to register, but the option is in our login boxes.
# racestaffer 2012-11-15 13:25
My apologies. It probably is desirable for folks to read Information/FAQ s before getting vocal at any new site and, indeed, I chose to dive in before getting the lay of the land here. On the other hand, having not done that, I'm also not psychic. Why would I think to ask if there's a "secret" door to the editing room? {grin} Either I see an edit button or I don't. Perhaps many discussion boards have this sort of safeguard. I can see the logic to it. But I don't meander much around the internet. I'll know better next time. Thanks for the heads up.
# st50 2012-11-15 13:29
Thanks Alice,
But since the posters names in my notifications are not the same as their screen names, I'll just stay this way, and hope that I don't have to edit my posts and/or I'll ask the mods to do it for me.
# Alice 2012-11-15 13:53
Actually, that was a problem that was strangely only brought to my attention yesterday. That is something I can easily fix. Also, in your registration, if you make your name and username the same (a lot of people do) that problem would be avoided. There is no requirement that your real name and your user name be different. It would probably be easier than asking a mod to edit a post.

It does help if you and everyone else point out things to me that aren't right. I have a lot of distractions and I tend not to know all that's going on.

I'm going to have to get a FAQ page on this going, but honestly, it's strange this doesn't come up that much!
# st50 2012-11-15 15:39
Cool. I'm now logged in, and can edit my own posts.
Thanks for the suggestion, Alice!
# Alice 2012-11-15 13:57
Racestaffer, sorry if I sounded harsh. It wasn't intended to scold. It's what happens to me when I'm doing five things at once. I do admit, we have it on a page somewhere, but maybe a restructured FAQ link would be handy where it's all spelled out easily. I'll have to see how I can make that visible to new users.

If you need any help with registration, just let me know.
# racestaffer 2012-11-15 14:43
No worries. Even if you were wacking the over-exuberant puppy on the nose with a news paper - no permanent damage. And cosmically, I needed a reality check. I'm fortunate to have flexibility in my job-description . But it's time to go sniffing out the grindstone of real life again.
# racestaffer 2012-11-15 15:06
Snicker... 4th (is that what I'm up to?) possible entendre for "check" in Dean's "Demon blood... check" line, BTW. Might be a reference to "Reality check" as in a hunter-speak that instruction that the listener should start taking words at face value now {giggle}. That would make sense given that the fight was clearly (to me) staged but "Sammy" seemed upset at the notion that "Dean" did not need a penny for his thoughts, there.

Given the spec monster an inch and he'll take... and take.. and... (ROTFL). Really, really going back to work now!!!
# PaintedWolf 2012-11-16 05:46
Oh, you may have misunderstood what I said earlier, racestaffer. I didn't mean to imply that I wasn't happy with the show or that I'd be inconsolably upset if there was a secret story going on, just that I, personally, wouldn't like the show to end that way. Of course I'm very aware of how hard everyone on the show works, and I do very much accept and appreciate how difficult their jobs are in producing a show we can all love. Lord knows I think I've mentioned this a time or two myself. I know they can't please everyone, and I don't expect them to do anything that I want just because I'm fan. It's just a matter of preference to me on how I' would like the show to end, but I'm open to most (maybe not all) possibilities. If it ends the way I want, yay for me, if it doesn't, c'est la vie.
(ooh, that kind of has a ring to it)
# racestaffer 2012-11-16 19:58
:-) A poetic ending... nice! And we've got static in the lines of communications? Yikes. We better watch out for spooks. I think maybe my post was being influenced by the manner in which I wound up here and my search of the whole thread for comments about JC. Uh... or not. I'm finding it hard to keep the posting timeline straight now.

At the beginning of these series I had more affection for Dean and identified more with Sam. Now, that doesn't mean I dislike Sam. I like Sam. And it doesn't meant there zero aspects of my character that I find Dean-like. I think I have some Dean in me too. And right now, with respect to the story, I feel like it's Wendigo and I'm Dean, in the company of fandom Sams. And it's weird and meta... er, reverse meta... or something. Life imitating art imitating... Cuz, when this ride started, I woulda been more likely to cast myself as Sammy, sitting alone and withdrawn from the light of the fire.

And of course this journey is part of why my spec du jour is that the team might be taking the "write what you know" mantra in the "trippy" direction of making the cast and crew of SPN ,the production, equate to the "supernaturals" of the story. Kim Manners (I believe) did liken Jared Padalecki to Pluto once upon a time. There are a few story elements in place that, by themselves, would lead me to a particular spec I have. And I'll just say that I see the potential for real life to... mesh... with the spec. And Jim Beaver worked on a Yetti movie. TV, movie... they're both motion pictures, right? Soooo.... Bobby's a little less Cronus and a little more king (or queen) of the frost jotuun?

Ahhhhh... yes. And as kaj points out, Sam seemed oddly concerned about Cas's return. And even Dean shows concern that Cas may not be "all here." Bobby knew about Sam being sprung from "The Cage" before Dean did. Yep, yep, yep. But oh, those things we saw RoboSam do (or not do). That all makes sense together and I think with my sense of relationship dynamics... allegiances... particularly though not exclusively from the Ring of Fire. But there's still the question of how many sub-stories are in the works and how do we distribute the allegiances? And who are double agents? "Sam," almost certainly. He might even be a triple agent if that's possible (LOL). Anyone else?
# racestaffer 2012-11-16 22:40
Well I've been typing a deleting a bunch here. I think I'll go with abbreviated. It's just too trippy to chase possible connections and story spec. But this post began with me thinking about Ellen and realizing my bias about the story coming back to Mary's death made me forget that Sam Smith isn't our only female Sam. Maybe Sam was channeling FauxSamFerris.

Oh duh...
Crazy Circles...
# racestaffer 2012-11-16 22:52
Oh, and I was thinking about Ellen because I was thinking about Bill... or rather, Will. Cas said this is about will. But immediately the voice in my head went, Was that will, or Will?" Lucifer read the tabloid to CrumblySam and thought that Wills has finally found the right girl. Team Free Will. Is "Will" a nickname for Luci because s/he's the angelic embodiment of free will? And/or could this relate to Bill Harvelle? What really went down between him and John... and why? Maybe relevant, maybe not, I've always been curious/suspici ous about why we've met Mary's family but not John's. In S1, John may have been more absent than present, but he was certainly a bigger part of the show than Mary. But it's Campbells that we've got busting out all over.
# kaj 2012-11-16 23:05
Double/triple agent Sam. Wow, that's interesting. I can see that Sam's interest being pulled in three different direction is mucking with his emotions.

We also knew that Sam has an experience of splitting his mind in three personality before in S6 finale.

Ooohhh, you know what I want to see? Sam with multiple personality disorder. because that's what I see from episodes to episodes. Sam's mood and emotions are different from episode 3 to episode 5 to episode 7. Every week we see different Sam.

Now, I've read a fic about personality disorder Sam that said Sam has 7 personalities. One of them is Meg, the other is a cruel killer, and the other is in love with Dean. It's a dark story but so much fun.
# racestaffer 2012-11-17 01:08
Well now there's a point to ponder. I was thinking something... eh... loosely akin to that yet in reverse, brother-wise. It was based on the heart to heart between Bobby and Sam before Bobby's last tango. Sam didn't feel sorry for himself because he only had one crazy under his umbrella. Some had it worse. Something to that effect. I guessed Sam was referring to Dean and/or Bobby. I had this huntery lore (I think) notion about how the animal you kill becomes part of you. It seemed Sam should have more than one in that case, so perhaps it was species or manner of death specific. But given that it has always appeared that Dean and John sheltered Sammy, to some extent, from the rough stuff, Sam would have fewer crazies than experienced hunters.

I can see why the FF went with 7 though. Mag7. 7 prophets. Oh wait, the piece you perused probably wasn't that recent (LOL). But 7 is one of the numbers that seem to be of possible importance in SPN. I've wondered why but haven't come upon anything that's struck a chord.

I don't read FF. Spend too much time on my "studies" and settling in to my new Wikipedia home. The story you describe does sound prime however.
# racestaffer 2012-11-17 07:56
Woke up. Can't fall back to sleep.
Feeding my spec monster this way... You're going to be the death of me, I fear. Ah, well... Anyway, don't take this the wrong way, because I feel like we're kindred in this regard, but you strike me as a bit of an odd bird.

So, here's what's on my mind right now.

Supernatural draw inspiration from the world around it. Sniff. A while-typing-pu ppy dog eyes moment there... and a shudder. You can't always see that, but some thing you do figure out. Death & Life. The movies. Jim Beaver and the Yetti movie. Yetti, Bumbles? Some fans got their knickers in a twist about that, but their all the same beast, right? After all, a rose by any other name - What's in a name? Some folks can be strangely sensitive to such things.

Unfortunately, I'm not the movie buff... oh, muahahaha... that Dean is. Seriously? The things that make me laugh! Where was I? Oh yeah, waving at the movie theater usher cuz I've lost, like, a quarter of my pocket change and I need his flashlight. Sure. Do they even have those anymore? Ushers, I mean. I hardly ever get to the theaters anymore, curse of the times - but I guess that was weak. Like my movie trivia. Titles? Yeah, I remember some as pop-culture references. But plots, not so much. Especially if I think the movie is kinda crappy. But being unenlightened about movies (& most everything else), I'm afraid I'll get lost. Like maybe I'm missing something something.

For instance, There's this movie I have spec'ed might be relevant, but my memory is pretty vague... the title even. I think that actress from Square Pegs might have been in it. She was a writer {squint}... columnist? A food critic or something, maybe. And of course there was romance... ah {shakes head}, Sex and the City? What was I thinking?!

I'm laughing again. My head has now gonna a whole new, positive direction on that one. We've all debated whether Sam or Dean is the red-headed woman of the relationship. And was someone here commenting on Dean being a softie here? Sam registers feminine periodically. Jim's... Jim. And Faux Misha was the pretty crying man. They're all a bunch of girls, aren't they {sheepish grin}?

But, like I said. That wasn't the creamy oreo middle I was digging for. No, I'm thinking about the title of that movie. Cuz there's clearly going to be one or more love triangles or, who knows, quadrangles. So if I've hit the heart of it... what's the city?

And then, of course, there's the fact that Sam's still a bit robotic. Number 5 alive, Stephanie, much? {frown} What's that about?! And, fpr what godly reason am I sitting here at my keyboard at this friggin hour. Amusing, but true, I'll be back here in like, 4 hours, to work on a grant proposal. Ain't that a crazy SPN-like coincidence?

But, maybe I've gotten this outta my system now. Time to give that whole sleep thing a second try.
# racestafferracestaff 2012-11-17 10:00
I musta shut down my computer before my last post... posted. I'll just combine. It was an "Oh...and..." anyway. BTW - If there's any tips on shutting this down, lemme know. I'm not kidding about needing to dive into a grant proposal.

So not oreo. Pie, of course.
And Sam hit a dog... Cas
So of course they locked eyes when it came to waking up on the side of the road in IL. On the way to Chicago.

But wait. Maybe sleep shall come soon. Cuz I also had Meg on my mind when I fired up the computer but if it came from this train of thought, I've lost that now. Maybe I was just stewing on the fanf fic???? I've spec'ed on Meg Ryan before, but now she also connects to Will, doesn't she... through Harry. Harry gets us to Tom & Huck and Jim. We've had obvious and perhaps non-obvious Twain references before. So we've got characters playing these roles on all levels... ... angel... demon???

So is Cas, Aunt Polly?(or Aunti Em, Aunt Beru?) Is that what Benny's crack was about? Was Cas not accepting that part, generally, or was he not accepting "Benny" as his Tom?
# racestaffer 2012-11-17 23:19
Or was he not wanting to be the Anti? And of course I spec'ed about the ante to. Too many homonyms to choose from!
# racestaffer 2012-11-17 14:24
I'm clean... at least I was til I got here. I have throwing gutter balls though. But I didn't mean Sam or even "Sam" was necessarily emotionally "terribly" torn three ways. Take football for instance. I don't think Tony Romo will kill himself if the Cowboys lose... again. Some Cowboys fans may pray for it, but that's why sometimes we thank God for unanswered prayers. The Cowboys won't really kill the Redskins. Like... ever. It's all in good fun.

Now I'll bet/hope there's *some* serious drama in the sub-story. But for instance, I think "Dean" may have an "adversarial relationship" with Mr. Tickles. But I think he also likes it. He's got that Cowboy streak after all - the masochist. Yes, perhaps it is Dean who is being sent the message to pack 'er up. Eh, but green's not his color. It's FauxGen that's the alpaca farmer.
# PaintedWolf 2012-11-19 02:07
Yeah, I know how it can get pretty confusing keeping track of these threads. Man, just glancing here, you've written quite a bit,race, since I was last here. Guess I gotta catch up.
So I'm diving right in. *rubs hands together*
# st50 2012-11-15 13:55
Thanks! Good suggestion. :)
# racestaffer 2012-11-15 21:26
OK - Yes I'm back. This is different than the bulk of my posts though. Finding a place where people will ask you questions and you get to... you know... try to answer them, can sometimes helps crystallize things in your own mind! I actually feel like a lot of pieces of the SPN puzzle fell into place for me today, maybe too many even. It'll probably pass {sheepish grin}. But I'm really ready to dial back the story spec now.

That said, I think it might be a good thing, after skimming the many expressions of unhappiness here, to highlight some things I think are significant with respect to why Sam didn't look for Dean. And then folks can analyze and spec as they desire... or not.

1) I searched for "Carver" here and don't see what I'm looking for. I swear I read somewhere that Jeremy Carver said TeamSPN would be playing with our perceptions in this season. No kidding, JC (LOL). That isn't something special about Season 8. If the fandom were putting together a yearbook who would you vote for as the... Character Most Likely to be Kripke (LOL)? My vote would be for Trickster. Yes, TeamSPN is playing with our perceptions, have been for a very long time, and it applies to the issue at hand.

2) Dean told Sam he must have gone to Purgatory because he was standing too close to Dick Roman. So now many fans are upset with Sam (or Jeremy Carver) because oh... that's pretty obvious about Roman... how could Sam not come up with that and start his search there?! Hold on peeps - Dean merely expressed a theory. Maybe Dean even believed it. It depends on who Jensen Ackles was channeling when he said it. But I think that's bogus. There's even plenty of precedent for Dean and Sam to be wrong in their first hypothesis. It's a ghost - No, it's a feral child. It's Bad Santa - No, it's Mr. & Mrs. PaganGod. Etc.

Although I expressed some doubts earlier, I'm feeling more certain Dean did go to Purgatory... cuz we were all given one or two possible explanations (not necessarily story-advancing reasons) that are at least as plausible as Dean standing next to the Levi when he blew. And although I must admit I don't get around the internet widely, Dick Roman's nearly I see, because Dean proposed that and no one on screen objected. That's a misdirection, folks. I'll bet money on it. They don't WANT you to think about it beyond Dick Roman. See, the reason Dean went to Purgatory provides the explanation for why Sam didn't look for Dean. Well, it provides it on "one level." I'm not sure fangirls will breathe a sigh of relief if they figure it out on Level One. It's a reason, but not a big-picture motivation. The big-picture motivation requires speculation. On the other hand, the reason Sam didn't look for Dean *does* provide a likely *motivation* for one or two things Sam did in the past that also made some fans unhappy. {grin}

So, if you really want a little more understanding about why Sam didn't look for Dean, don't just look at the present and near past. Look back to the Sera Gamble era.
# kaj 2012-11-16 23:29
Okay, I am with you now race, sometime you think a mile a minute that makes me hyperventilate LOL But I am up to your speed now, I guess.

They want us to THINK that Dean went to Purg because of the kick in the God's weapon. Yet, that information is delivered by Crowley, who is a demon, who is more likely to lie.

Supposed to say that after the explosion Sam found out the real reason why Dean was being sent into Purgatory.
- to get Benny out?
- to kill a certain monster?
- to leave Cas there?
- to unknowingly retrieve a secret?
They said that Benny is not what he seems to be. It probably more likely that the reason why Dean was sent to purgatory was to get Benny out. Why? It's still unclear.

Sam knew that Dean was sent there by someone. This someone assured Dean's safety because he/she needs Dean to do something in purg. They guarantee Dean's safety and will return him when the time comes.
Don't look for Kevin too. He is safe. We only want to protect the tablets but right now the demon tablet is a bait to unearth the next tablets.

After Dean went to purgatory, Demon tablet appear. What if the requirements to unearth the demon tablet is for a human to enter purgatory realm? That means Dean went to purgatory is not on accidents but on purpose.

Who is this character behind the veil? Who is this new Trickster?
# racestaffer 2012-11-17 00:18
Getting closer :-)
But you haven't invoked the Sera Gamble era yet.
# racestaffer 2012-11-17 01:31
New Trickster? That's a good one.
Next you'll be asking who the new Michael Myers is.
Fine... new age thinking
Forward thinking...

Alain Prost???
Do you have any idea how many potentially SPN-relevant hits you get from "The Professor?"
# racestaffer 2012-11-16 08:04
Hmmmm... This is very interesting. So maybe the Team *is* ratcheting up the clues with more introduction of visual clues. Gotta find or generate the artwork if it has to be special... like a roundy round track. Gotta allow directors time to plan shots so you can see Dean tap his hip or abdomen... but still have a nice shot and not make the tapping too obvious/awkward .

# racestaffer 2012-11-17 12:28
Oh good... gracious! Court Jester, much? Stop. That's on me, BTW. Now, once more into the fray, sorta.

I hope I've been more amusing than irritating. Fools can be either depending on the circumstances. Strange episode this last. Penny for your thoughts and Brigadoon posters. When mudpuppies crawl back under their rocks, will they leave flaming craters behind... like Benny wanted?

Oooookaaaayyy. So I was about to express mother hen concern towards st50 for collecting strays. Didn't your momma warn you about that? It was you wasn't it? I'm not sure now and I'm having trouble finding the evidence. Just like Brigadoon.

In reality, I actually do have a jester hat, FYI, that I just wore last month. It's an annual That Loooong Race ritual. Straight up... another of life's freaky SPN coincidences? It was given to me by a friend I'll be seeing tomorrow - shared viewing of the Formula One race in Austin. She passed it on to me after her sister passed. I'll be thinking of the way the stars aligned to bring me here when I see her tomorrow!

Vacation for Sammy? Hmmmm. Even vacations can be work sometimes. In fact, the best vacations are one part planning and one part go with the flow, don'tcha think? Sammy's the planner. Dean's... mehahaha... more fluid. Well, why else would he have an aquarium in a trailer (LOL)?
# racestaffer 2012-11-17 12:48
The COURT Jester. The Fool! I haven't mastered linguistics. I wasn't trying to imply anything, Alice. I really did wear a jester hat a few weeks ago. I'm not making that up.

Court jester? I wondered if Sammy's being pre-law would help save Dean... but before Hell, not with Osirus.
# Fluffy2107 2012-11-21 11:06
My Theory?


Perception is the big theme.

We already got it with Dean, who built the escape scene from Purgatory to something he expected it to be.
Himself failing.
Because he can´t stand being rejected or left alone.

Him failing is normal for him. He can deal with it, because he expects it from himself. This is the one thing, his whole self image is built upon.

Being left behind? Not so much.
This is his biggest fear. Others leaving him.
So he changed it.

Makes sense.

Now Sam.
Sam is a much more well rounded person than Dean. (Good job on raising him, btw Dean)
He is alot more self assured and blanced than Dean.
But the one thing, Sam WANTS, is peace and a life.
The one thing, Sam can´t deal with, is losing Dean.
And he went through so much in the last year(s)
Losing Dean, Apocalypse,
So, Sam is the logical one of the two. And from that perspective alone his actions make sense.
Dean: gone (and most likely in heaven, drinking with Ash and Jo)
Cas: gone
Everything else: gone.
Hunter community: hates him

Now Sam has a pretty hard time connecting to others on a personal level. Yes, he´s the "nice" one, but he´s also very introvert and slow to take on others.
It shows perfectly in his interactions with the boy from the motel, contrary to his interaction with Amelia.
He was easy going with the boy, but very awkward with Amelia. Because both interactions happened on a different level of intimacy. Amelia could actually "touch" his inner core. Whereas the boy was just something that happened on a pretty superficial level.

But, what we actually want to know, is: what happened before that?

Alot of alcohol, would be my educated guess.
And fixing Baby.

I really like, btw, how that resonates with Dean´s action at the beginning of Season 7.
"There isn´t anything I can do about cas. But what I CAN do, is fix the car"

And Naomi.
Didn´t see that one coming, did you?

Sam´s memories are really strange. Too colorful, too bright, too dreamlike.
Something is totally off there.
Just as Dean´s memories are devaid of color, to express the constant state of fighting alertness, he was in, Sam´s are so freakishly sweet, it literally makes my teeth hurt.
So far, this has been a sign, that something we see is not real.

Which points to tampering. Either that, or Sam had a mental breakdown and made that up.

We know, what Naomi did with Cas. Talk to him and delete his memories.
And there the figure outside the house, when Sam is leaving, that Someon (carver?) said, might as well have been female. (hinthint)

What if Sam WAS looking into things. And what if someone stopped him, brainwashed him into actually taking some rest, for gods sake. Because he needed it.

And then deleted the memory?
Just as they did with Cas?
# KELLY 2013-01-28 13:05
Amy, Okay, you’ll have to forgive me. This is probably thinking way more deeply about this then I should. But I think with “ Only he get to call me that.” (that and Dean’s little smile in response is one of my favorite moments) Sam is acknowledging that it has a similar meaning for him, despite his previous protests to it.

And I think when demons and angels use it to mock him, they are trying to twist something that they know has meaning, in order to get to him. The same way they will always try to utilize either of the guy’s vulnerabilities . Sometimes it seems to work, most times it’s ignored completely. Either way they would find something to exploit because demon like to play mind games.

I emphatically do not believe that Dean or Sam see it as a sign that Sam is not an equal partner. John may have used it that way sometimes. But John and Sam’s relationship is nothing like Dean and Sam’s relationship. I’m not saying I don’t sometimes see an imbalance of power, but I don’t think either of them see this term of affection as a sign of that.

I think both have issues with self-worth and that there are words that can trigger them. But I see those as ones like, freak or monster for Sam. With Dean it’s usually something with responsibility or fault that triggers his guilt. Although, emmau, mentioned in a debate we had last summer that weak was one in S4. I have to admit re-watching that probably was the writers’ intention, but it never struck until she pointed it out.
# Amy 2013-01-29 10:58
I'm obviously over thinking this. I think I agree with you Kelly. But something you said: Sam adn Deans relationship is nothing like John and Sam's relationship.

Sam and Deans relationship is far more complex then Sam and Johns's since they have more layers. Not only do the guys (Sam adn Dean) have the brother relationship but also the father/son relationship. Should I include the Hunter relationship? The friend relationship but they haven't been friends since S2.Which means I have to ask...what part of Dean is calling Sam..."Sammy"? The Hunter? The brother? Or the father? The father would see it as John saw it. The Hunter? Well the Hunter has already informed Sam he is an inferior hunter/brother to Benny. The use of Sammy would be a passive/aggress ive way to remind Sam of all this.

The brother? Since Dean sees hunting as who he is I dont know if he can seperate the brother from the father and the hunter.

Again I am over thinking this and obviously for me it boils down to I think of it as the same as the amulet. It used to mean something special between the two but no longer holds that symbolism. For ME its time to retire the nickname as it belongs to the past.
# KELLY 2013-01-29 11:57
Amy, I agree Dean can't really separate his life from hunting so to some degree he is always, the father, the brother, the friend and the hunter. I don't see their relationship as quite as broken as you do. Maybe their relationship isn't the same as it was in the earlier seasons (come on you at least have to give them S3). But they both have shown despite the hardships, betrayals and everything else that they want to be together.