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Welcome to our newest experiment, the Let's Discuss threads!  The idea is to focus the discussions and topics out there and let burning subjects that are on people's minds have their own dedicated place.

A lot of the focus this season has been on Dean and what happened to him in Purgatory, how he's adjusting to being back, and how he's attempting to relate to his brother.  So let's open up some topics for discussion!  I'm going to suggest a few, but feel free to jump in with your own topics that you want to see discussed.  Please label any spoilers from unaired episodes/news, if you talk about them in your comments.

** Dean seems to have a serious case of PTSD from Purgatory.  How do you think this will continue to affect him moving forward?
** Dean's clearly not over the fact that Sam didn't look for him while he was in Purgatory (that we know of, for now.)  How do you think the two of them will resolve this issue?  How would you like to see them resolve the issue?
** What do you make of Dean and Benny's friendship?  Do you think it will affect Sam and Dean's relationship?  If so, how?
** Given his actions in Purgatory, it seems like Dean has completely forgiven Cass.  Do you think this is true?  How do you think their time in Purgatory will change their relationship?
** REQUESTED TOPIC: If Dean was always very protective of Sam, how was he fine with Sam hunting?

All right, discuss away!  Anything involving Dean and his character development is fair game.

In your comments, please be aware of our rules.  Otherwise, this is a free form discussion where all comments are welcome.  If there are other topics that you'd like to see in "Let's Discuss," send your suggestion through the "Contact Us" section.  

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Spencer
# Spencer 2012-11-05 21:51
Though I originally thought that Benny and Dean's friendship would interfere with the brothers, I don't think so anymore. In fact, I could see Sam and Benny getting along well, for 2 reasons. 1, Sam and Benny are actually very alike in that they both have tragic pasts and look at the world in gray, something Dean doesn't do. 2, Sam is generally more willing to accept monsters.
hartbroknagn
# hartbroknagn 2012-11-05 22:04
I have always thought that Dean was like a wild dog ready to bite. Sure he has people he is loyal too but it takes a long time to build up that trust.
I actually think Dean was in his element in purgatory. He was always more of a hunter than Sam. Sam's hunting seems like it was always based on a feeling of revenge for something. Dean just wants to kill the monsters.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-05 22:29
Dean seems to have a serious case of PTSD from Purgatory. How do you think this will continue to affect him moving forward?

It depends on what influences Dean. I was impressed he let Kate go, but I think that he will be more violent until he recovers from his PTSD. Benny is a friend, but he too is coming from a situation of constant fight, so he may egg Dean on in over reacting and being more violent. Sam could calm Dean down. As Dean has said, they keep each other human, but Sam is off right now and may not be able to be a balance for Dean.

Dean's clearly not over the fact that Sam didn't look for him while he was in Purgatory (that we know of, for now.) How do you think the two of them will resolve this issue? How would you like to see them resolve the issue?

I want Sam to have looked for Dean and for Dean to find that out. I expect that Sam will not have looked for Dean and Dean will use that as an emotional club against Sam to keep him in hunting and to keep Sam from criticizing Dean during hunts. We have already seen Dean berate Sam for taking a year off and being rusty and I don't see that changing.

What do you make of Dean and Benny's friendship? Do you think it will affect Sam and Dean's relationship? If so, how?

It is obvious that the Dean and Benny friendship was forged in fire and that may make it very strong, possibly stronger than his relationship with Sam. I expect that with Dean feeling that Sam betrayed him he will trust Benny over Sam and perhaps protect Benny over Sam. I hope Sam simply reminds Dean that he once trusted Ruby for what seemed to be good reasons and he got burnt and then he leaves Dean alone, but I suspect it won't go that way.

Given his actions in Purgatory, it seems like Dean has completely forgiven Cass. Do you think this is true? How do you think their time in Purgatory will change their relationship?

This is a sore topic for me. IMHO, Castiel skates on everything he does. He betrayed Dean by letting Sam out of the panic room, nothing happens. He breaks Sam's wall, Dean forgives him within 2 episodes of seeing him again. He kills half his family and the angels tell us that his problem is he has too good a heart. So yeah, I'm sure Dean has forgiven Castiel and will beat Sam over the head with how much better a friend Castiel is than Sam and that Cas is a better brother too. I'll have to see more of Cas in Purgatory to see how their relationship changed, but I would guess that Cas will be unhappy about Dean's bond with Benny and will try to enlist Sam in undermining that bond. I also think he will work to undermine Sam's bond with Dean because I do think Cas wants Dean all to himself, but like I said, I'm not in the least bit unbiased when it comes to Cas.

REQUESTED TOPIC: If Dean was always very protective of Sam, how was he fine with Sam hunting?

Because he's human. Yes he loves Sam. Yes he wants Sam safe. But more than anything, he wants Sam with him, and since Dean defines himself as a hunter, that means Sam has to hunt as well. So Dean convinces himself that Sam doesn't really want out of hunting, that Sam belongs with Dean and so he does whatever it takes to keep Sam where Dean wants him. Dean sees himself and we see Dean as very self-sacrificin g, but he is human and that means he is also selfish at times. One of those times is when he puts his blinders on and ignores how hunting hurts Sam and ignores that Sam really does want different things than Dean and that Sam wanting different things doesn't mean that Sam doesn't love him.
Anja
# Anja 2012-11-06 05:04
I have to respond to percysowner's comment, as I obviously don't agree with it.
You state that "[Cas] breaks Sam's wall, Dean forgives him within 2 episodes of seeing him again." Don't you think that Cas, by taking on Sam's wall, did enough to fix his mistake? He basically sacrifised himself to save Sam. Can you imagine what the world would be like, if people would never forgive eachother? Everyone does something stupid once in a while, but if they show that they are worthy of forgiveness, it is right that they recieve it. After all, Dean might have forgiven him, but Cas still hasn't forgiven himself, and he's trying to pay his penance in Purgatory.

I know we probably have oposing points of view, me being a big Cas supporter and you not, but I think you agree on the fact that forgiveness is something that needs to be present in our world, since making mistakes, paying for them and in the end forgiving them is something that keeps us human.

(p.s. I'm not a native speaker so I'm sorry for all my grammatical mistakes)
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-06 08:19
Quote:
by taking on Sam's wall, did enough to fix his mistake?
sorry for butting in .No.As it was not just sam who suffered because of it and sam's suffering was unnecessary for Cas's reasons for breaking sam's wall
Melissa
# Melissa 2012-11-06 21:32
Whoops, yeah, sorry, just stopping Michael and Lucifer from rising again, no big deal. It's not like they'd be able to stop them again- Michael and Lucifer wouldn't fall for the same trick twice, and there are no more horseman rings anyway. Basically, it was open Purgatory or lose the war in Heaven and let the archangels rise. Did you think the Winchesters would get out of that in one piece? Not to mention that Castiel was the one who actually got Sam out of Hell in the first place, whereas everybody else was going to let him rot. And, as per usual, no thanks for that. Just being told he did a piss-poor job. Even Sam has said that he knew Cas was just trying to be useful, he was doing the best he could at the time (that last half being from Dean). And after that, Castiel takes no credit for anything helpful he does, but full blame for any mistakes. He did the best he could to fix everything, and even when he took on Sam's madness (which only gets worse with time), he ignored it and really just tried to be as helpful as possible and please everyone.

(Last line deleted by Alice. No, no, I must remind of the rules. Show respect. This comment was reported by another person, so I'm editing. Please try to not let your temper rule).
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-07 01:25
It is not just what he did in the season you mentioned but also what he did in season 5 ....I personally believe he has evaded telling truth long before that.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-06 08:23
Don't worry about the errors, you do very well communicating your thoughts.

Look, I had a stepbrother. We weren't close like Sam and Dean, but we liked each other and lived in the same house after his mom married my dad for about 6 years. He suffered a SEVERE breakdown when he was about 18. He would not speak to people for weeks at a time. He would stay with his mom then wander off and not be heard from for months. I ran into him once and he was lost and unwilling to accept help. If I had ever found out that his illness was caused DELIBERATELY by someone, I would NEVER forgive them, even if they transferred the madness to themselves. My stepbrother suffered for years and if the person who caused it then corrected it, well that's being a decent human being and trying to correct your mistakes, not a bid for best person of the year or even friend material. I wouldn't mind Dean saying he forgives Cas, because that is courtesy when someone tries to rectify a mistake, although destroying a mind is an awfully big mistake. But for Dean to trust Cas and under normal circumstance for him act as if Cas is still his BFF confuses me. Dean's main trait is loyalty and getting over the destruction of someone he loves has always been something that Dean wouldn't do.
st50
# st50 2012-11-06 08:37
Sorry about your stepbrother, percysowner.
I don't have nearly as good a reason as you, but I also don't like this 'all is forgiven' attitude by Dean. It seems somewhat out of character to me.... where is the "you hurt my little brother and I'll kill you" side that had always been there before? Having been to hell, and knowing that Sams experience in the Cage would've been a much higher level of torture - it was Lucifer! for heavens sake! - and having watched Sam suffering since letting Luci help.....Why would Dena let Cas get a pass on that?
Yes, Cas took on the crazy - or whatever that was - but he knowingly crushed the wall, (inexcusable!! - he knew what that meant!) and left it that way.... He was still, in 7.17, willing to walk away and leave Sam to die - even before he knew the wall couldn't just be repaired - until Dean showed him the 'miracle trenchcoat'! It seemed that Cas had to be practically forced into caring about Sams predicament to me.
I sure wouldn't be very quick about returning to BFF status!
E
# E 2012-11-06 21:42
Hey Guys, I am jumping in on this one too!
You know why I don't think Dean should be so forgiving of Cas? Because he hasn't asked for forgiveness, not from Dean which is bad, and not from Sam which is worse. In order to even attempt to earn forgiveness for what he did, he first must ASK for it and then admit that he made a terrible mistake and that he is sorry. He hasn't done any of that. As a matter of fact, his "I can't get involved in anything violent, I am going to go watch the bees" schtick at the end of season 7 only compounded his guilt as far as I am concerned. He thought by removing himself from the conflict that he was somehow helping, but all he was doing was leaving everyone else to wallow in the mess that he created and then refused to deal with. Sam scraped, groveled, apologized and repented for an ENTIRE SEASON to earn Dean forgiveness, going so far as to sacrifice himself to re-win Dean's trust. Cas should have to do at least as much IMHO as his sins were as great as Sam's.

I actually don't hate Cas as a character despite this rant. I have always enjoyed him and his stilted, strange ways, but he has suffered as much in season 7 from poor writing and characterizatio n as anyone else. It annoyed me to no end that when the Leviathan were all around, and Crowley was closing in, Cas was off watching the bees and being completely unhelpful. I think that he should eventually be forgiven, because, yes, that is what good friends and family do for one another, but that is AFTER that forgiveness has been asked for and responsibility taken for wrongs done and a real remorse is shown.
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-06 23:55
But doesn't he say at the end of the first or second ep of season 7 something about being sorry and how he would undo it all if he could and fix Sam's head. And Dean says is he looking for forgiveness. Cas responds 'Is it working?' and Dean says 'no'.

He was crazy later so, as Dean put it, he was playing at Sorry.

I can't help feeling that he did something similar with Sam later and Sam was accepting of the apology, but I am not as clear on season 7 stuff as the other seasons, so I might be making that last bit up.

But I agree with your premise that forgiveness should be asked for and earned.
Anja
# Anja 2012-11-07 02:41
Quote:
In order to even attempt to earn forgiveness for what he did, he first must ASK for it and then admit that he made a terrible mistake and that he is sorry.
He hasn't asked for forgiveness? Are we watching the same show?

Cas said on various occasions, how sorry he is. There's a scene in 7x01, when Sam goes to look for the jar with blood and Cas tries to talk with Dean:

Cas: Dean?
Dean: What, you need something else?
Cas: No. I feel regret. About you, and what I did for Sam.
Dean: Yeah, well you should.
Cas: If there was time, if I was strong enough, I'd fix him now. I just wanted to make amends before I die.
Dean: Okay.
Cas: Is it working?
Dean: Does it make you feel better?
Cas: No. You? (this you here is very important, he's basically asking Dean if he'll ever be able to forgive him for what he did.)
Dean: Not a bit.

Here we get Castiel reaction shot. Now, be aware of the body language here! He's almost desperate for Dean's forgiveness, he feels like he doesn't deserve it, and Dean isn't forgiving. Cas knows that, and his expression is so painful - for someone who isn't supposed to have a soul, he surely does develop very deep feelings.

The second scene I want to point out, is a scene with Sam in 7x17, when Cas comes to the hospital to try and fix his wall:
Cas: I should have never broken your wall, Sam. I'm here to make it right.
Sam: [sees Lucifer]: You're not real.
Cas: Oh, Sam... I'm so sorry.


After, when Cas decides to take Sam's wall:

Cas: [to Dean] It's better this way. (these lines have a meaning: I know you will never forgive me if Sam stays like this forever, so I will take on his pain and I hope you'll be able to forgive me when I'm dead/whatever happens to me.) I'll be fine (meaning: I know I won't be fine, but at least I won't have to watch you mourning after your brother because of me, because that would be more painful than anything that could happen to me.)
Dean: Cas, what are you doing?
Cas: Now, Sam, this may hurt. And if I can't tell you again, I'm sorry I ever did this to you.


There are many other times when he asks for forgiveness, in 7x21 with the sorry game - here we have to take the game as a symbol for equality - Cas did what he had to, he repaired Sam, he said he was sorry, and now he's telling Dean: IT'S YOUR MOVE, I did what I could, now it's time for you to think about everything that happened and find the strength to forgive me.

Now let me just add, that Cas already realized how wrong he was in season 6 - us viewers saw that in episode 6x20, The Man Who Would Be King. He was begging Sam (and especially) Dean for forgiveness already since that episode, and then continued to do it throught the next episodes in season 6 and 7 that he was present in. Now I totally agree here with you that we didn't see much of his struggle to get boys' forgiveness, but this is simply due the fact that he was present in 4 episodes in season 7 (I'm not counting his short scene in 7x02 as leviathan!Cas). This is definitely something that writers should have taken care of. They were slowly destroying the character of Castiel throughout season 6 and 7, and one of the reasons that make me so excited for season 8, is the fact that Jeremy Carver knows what to do with him.

I recently read an interview with him, which tells a lot what he thinks of the writers' attitude toward Cas in previous season, you can read it here: buzzymag.com/jeremy-carver-supernatural-show-runner-exclusive-interview/ For once, I believe that we have the right man behind the wheel, and I finally trust the writing team to treat Cas as he deserves.
FoolForDean
# FoolForDean 2012-11-07 15:45
@Anja: That was a very nice analysis of Castiel's psyche and the way he struggles to express his remorse. I have always wanted Dean to forgive Cas, and am so excited to the pair's exchanges in purgatory thus far, but I've not been able to articulate my reasons. You have done just that. Thank you! I am so glad to know that I am not alone in supporting the writer's decision to have Dean forgive Cas.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-10 05:36
Cas did not ask sorry to Sam when he was lucid.Your excerpts of dialogue says the same.I get that Dean and Cas have a profound bond but Sam was a friend too if that is how he treats his friends without profound bond (and the show here too has Sam forgiving so easily) then god help SamQuote:
Now let me just add, that Cas already realized how wrong he was in season 6 - us viewers saw that in episode 6x20, The Man Who Would Be King. He was begging Sam (and especially) Dean for forgiveness already since that episode, and then continued to do it throught the next episodes in season 6 and 7 that he was present in.
he was presenting the reasoning behind his actions in that episode not apologising.I thing they don't even fall in the territory of apologisingQuote:
Now I totally agree here with you that we didn't see much of his struggle to get boys' forgiveness, but this is simply due the fact that he was present in 4 episodes in season 7
Yes,the writers should have they did not and so again Cas gets forgiven so easily by Sam.The writers did not take care of it when Sam was in the same place as Cas was. cas is a supporting character and even then he got the episode6*20 .He was more than lucky.Quote:
There are many other times when he asks for forgiveness, in 7x21 with the sorry game - here we have to take the game as a symbol for equality - Cas did what he had to, he repaired Sam, he said he was sorry, and now he's telling Dean: IT'S YOUR MOVE, I did what I could, now it's time for you to think about everything that happened and find the strength to forgive me.
By giving more importance to Dean's forgiveness they reduced the pain Cas caused Sam.Quote:
For once, I believe that we have the right man behind the wheel, and I finally trust the writing team to treat Cas as he deserves.
and i hope they do.The only difference is you and i believe Cas deserves different things
SSJDeBusk
# SSJDeBusk 2012-11-10 02:13
I totally agree with you st50 and the stepbrother story from before but I think st50 came across an underlying reason without meaning it. I feel like (and I don't wanna be that Destiel person but I can't help it) he forgave Cas even though he did all those things (deliberately - that's what always gets me...the working for Crowley thing is just Dean throwing a fit but screwing with Sam is where I was sure they were done for, I mean...Dean's major character trait is his love and devotion to his little brother) because he sees Cas as being as important to him as Sam. When he said he saw him as family and Cas returned the centements I feel like that was a very big step in showing that Dean doesn't just consider Cas and ally or a buddy but right there in importance right below Sammy. I think if it was anyone else Dean would have killed him a long time ago for working with Crowley, going crazy and killing people with the Leviathan souls in him and breaking Sam's wall. He is, by a logical standpoint just the kind of monster Dean hunts but just like Sammy it doesn't matter the evil stuff they do, if they try to fix it he just tries to keep going and learn to trust again. And on a random note, the only reason Cas ever helps Sam is for Dean. Seriously...Cas could not give less of a real shit about Sam or his welfare and I'm pretty sure Sam isn't too happy about Cas's existence either. It seems like mutual tolerance on both sides for Dean's sake.
Clare
# Clare 2012-11-06 08:43
Quote:
destroying a mind is an awfully big mistake.
In the canon Sam is fine. And Sam himself has forgiven Cas.

Quote:
I wouldn't mind Dean saying he forgives Cas
But you do seem to mind, very much.

Quote:
But for Dean to trust Cas and under normal circumstance for him act as if Cas is still his BFF confuses me. Dean's main trait is loyalty
Dean's loyalty includes Cas too, particularly as canon has made it clear Dean knows Cas "did the best he could."

Quote:
getting over the destruction of someone he loves has always been something that Dean wouldn't do.
I think you're discounting the fact that Dean loves Cas too.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-06 08:49
Quote:
But you do seem to mind, very much.
No according to her comment it is the trust that she minds...but if you want to twist the comment ..good for you.
Ardeospina
# Ardeospina 2012-11-06 14:47
ADMIN WARNING!

anonymousN, you're walking a fine line here and coming dangerously close to attacking others with your comment. Please be respectful with your responses or your comments will be edited.

Ardeospina
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-07 01:27
Ardiospina,I respect your warning, but if you see the comment which i responded to that itself violates the rules which does not allow us to put words in other peoples mouth (In this case percysowner was very clear),so i think it would be fair if you warned that poster too.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-07 01:32
I saw the warning,Thank you.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-06 08:51
Quote:
I think you're discounting the fact that Dean loves Cas too.
I don't know about percysowner but even then getting over the destruction of someone he loves has always been something that Dean wouldn't do.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-06 08:59
In addition I'm also counting the fact that Dean never forgave John for having Adam and daring to visit him once or twice a year. And that was YEARS after it happened and it really had little or no impact on Sam or Dean. Dean hasn't been that forgiving in the past and it seems out of character now.
Clare
# Clare 2012-11-06 12:32
John was dead at the time of this revelation. It's likely Dean's apparent lack of forgiveness of his father had something to do with that.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-07 01:28
I don't know about that as i think it is still possible to forgive the Dead and it should not matter whether john is dead or alive
Kaesekuchen
# Kaesekuchen 2012-11-06 17:03
...How do you know that he 'never forgave John for having Adam'? Seriously, when is it brought up again after the episode that introduces Adam?
Clare
# Clare 2012-11-06 12:37
Yes, it was clear that in S7 Dean hadn't gotten over the destruction of something he loved – Cas. The fact he got Cas back is significant to Dean. It's a second chance. Despite the fact some in fandom would like Dean to run Cas through with his angel sword, it isn't going to happen Because Dean is a better person than that (as is Sam), and Dean forgives (as does Sam). Dean loves people other than Sam.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-06 09:02
Quote:
In the canon Sam is fine. And Sam himself has forgiven Cas.
Somebody hurts me, I know how much I suffered and I usually do forgive them, or at least accept the apology as being real. Someone hurts my kid or someone I love, Hell NO. Sam is a forgiver who has made mistakes and who has always been more forgiving than Dean. So Sam's forgiveness does not mean Dean should forgive. For me Dean forgiving Cas is OOC for Dean.
Clare
# Clare 2012-11-06 12:34
Sam is not Dean's kid, despite your tendency to infantilize him.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-06 12:53
Wow, when people ding Sam it is always because he is so ungrateful because Dean raised him. However if I bring up my kid, then I am infantilizing Sam. DEAN canonically acted in a parental role with Sam and many of their issues spring from the tensions of Sam wanting to be an adult and Dean still holding on as if he is the parent. In any case, I did not limit my statement to my kid, who is 25 and very capable and who I do not see as a child in ANY way. I also said SOMEONE I love.

As I posted elsewhere, I would feel the same about anyone who deliberately and with malice who hurt my stepbrother.

Frankly, when people are defending Dean the fact that he raised Sam is usually mentioned. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Either Dean was partly parent or he wasn't . Since the show and many fans see Dean as having parental feelings toward Sam, I am free to use that argument as a COMPARISON for the intensity of feeling between Dean and Sam. When I am 98 and my daughter is 63, I will still take on anyone who deliberately hurts her and that is in no way infantilizing her.
Sarah W
# Sarah W 2012-11-06 15:01
I see Sam as Dean's child. Despite them being brothers ,and despite the fact that Sam is now grown and able to make his own decisions, Dean will always see himself as his protector. It is a responsibility that John trusted onto him and one that he defined himself after. In a lot of ways it was a responsibility that he was not ready to carry and that sacrificed so much in order to be able to meet. He gave up his own childhood so that he could always be there for Sam, so that he could keep him safe. Later on he went as far as to give up his soul and damn himself to an eternity on hell for him. He raised Sam, and in all ways that mattered he was his parental figure. I see this, I see the Winchesters and their bond for what it is. Yet I still think it is completely IN character for Dean to forgive Castiel. What Castiel did had reason behind it. He sacrificed himself for the world. If he hadn't done it, all their work would have been undone, Lucifer and Michael would have gotten out, and the boys would have been caught in the middle of the fight yet again, killing over half the world's population and any sense of free will. What he did to Sam was a mistake. He knows it and hates himself for it. In lots of ways he's still atoning for it now. Yet I still see Dean forgiving him, because Castiel is not just a guy they happen to know. Castiel became like family to them. He literally pulled them both out of hell. He reveled and became hunted to support their fight for free will. He faced the devil, was given a way out, and still choose to defend Sam and stand with them. He chose to sacrifice himself instead of asking them to fight after losing it all. Every single time they needed him and asked for him, he was there. When he took down Sam's wall they were actively hunting him, they were searching for a way to kill him. He didn't even kill Sam, he just incapacitated him for what he fully intended to be a short time. He fully intended to heal him after --he probably intended to use the gained power and heal him completely-- but the next time he saw Sam was when Sam literally stabbed him in the back. After this the Leviathans went on to corrupt his grace and then he died. Then the first thing he did once he was able fully in control of himself again was heal Sam. He literally took his pain onto himself. Something that completely damaged him and broke him despite being an angel. Imagine what it would have done to Sam in the long term. Sam's wall was never a permanent thing, during the short time he had it he continuously scratched at it and he ended up having seizures because of it. There is nothing to tell us that it would have lasted, or that he wouldn't still be having seizures today. Dean knows this. Dean knows that Castiel did a wrong thing out of necessity not out of some wish to harm. And still, it took Dean time to come to terms with this and even begin to forgive Castiel. When we see him meet Cas again in "The Born Again Identity" he still cares for him --because the guy is pretty much the only actual friend he'd ever had and someone who has died for him and his brother repeatedly, and always was there when they asked-- but he still holds his faults against him. He didn't actually begin to forgive him until he saw him at the Asylum, affected by the memories he took from Sam. And still he raged in his struggle to meet the idea of his loyal friend and someone who had harmed Sammy. Yet Sam forgave Cas, and Sam is now better than he could have ever expected to be after spending a century in hell. Dean knows that without Cas he wouldn't even have gotten his brother back at all, much less the healthy and whole brother he now has. I believe that it is this that allowed him to begin forgiving Castiel. Which is what we saw at the end of season 7. And when after it all a barely whole Castiel still choose to fight a likely death battle with him again, still went with him when he needed him, he saw that despite what he did Cas is still the friend that is there for him. That taking Sam's wall down was a mistake. But in the long run, it was a forgivable one. Considering that his place they themselves would have done the same or worse to Cas --as he himself did in Point of No Return (5x18) when he used the angel banishing sigil on Cas to buy himself time-- it makes sense that Dean would forgive him. With all this considered, I would honestly consider it more OOC if he hadn't. Not to mention that he would have certainly come off as a bit of a hypocrite.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-11-06 15:20
I am not going to get involved with the whole Dean forgiving Castiel thing because that is between them. But I will say this when Castiel brought Sams wall down he wasnt taking a risk with himself but with Sam to distract Dean. Yes his belief might of been temporary damage to Sam was worth his goal and then I will heal him.

However it was a risk that he took on Sams behalf what if he had been destroyed , what if Dean had never found him to heal Sam. And Sam was not continually scratching at the wall outside of Unforgiven he barely did anything to either scratch at it or cause it to fall wether it would of at some point is irrelevant to what Castiel did.

I dont hate Castiel but he knew Sam was vunerable and took his chance without warning . But Sam has not held it against him and he and Dean will sort their relationship out and everything has moved on and Sam's damage has been sorted and filed away and we have 'normal' Sam so regardless of my feelings over that it is now to late.
Sarah W
# Sarah W 2012-11-06 19:17
With purgatory open Castiel knew that he would have the power necessary to cure Sam. He had already experienced the power of souls, he knew that more of them would give him enough power to rival god, and like such he would have enough power to heal that which as an angel he could not. Therefore, temporarily incapacitating Sam would not have appeared like a risk at all to him, he was sure that he would have been able to heal him after.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-07 01:30
Quote:
With purgatory open Castiel knew that he would have the power necessary to cure Sam.
He did not for sure.My only quibble with Cas bringing down Sam's wall is he could have distracted Dean by transporting him to China or India
Sarah W
# Sarah W 2012-11-08 21:11
He had enough power to rival God. It makes sense he would not register it as a risk at all. If he had sent Sam to China,Sam would have just found a way to call Dean get some money wired and get back. Dean would know his brother was fine and would still fully focus on hunting Cas. That wouldn't have been a distraction at all. Having Sam incapacitated barely even slowed Dean down, he still hunted Cas.
Again, he did something wrong and he knows it. But he didn't do it out of malice --and always had the intention to fix it-- , the circumstances just pushed him towards it.
Sam has forgiven him. With the way everything happened and what has transpired since then it makes sense that Dean is on his way as well.
Cas has struggled with it, has fixed it, and we still see him atoning for it. I think eventually he will at least come to terms with what he did.
Because what he did makes sense. It was not excusable but it was understandable.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-08 22:12
I think the point is that Cas could have sent Sam, Dean AND Bobby to China and carried on without hurting Sam in the least. Castiel had transported Dean and Sam across space and time in The Song Remains The Same to see try and stop Anna from killing Mary and John. And he wasn't even at full power then. Transporting 3 people to the mountains of Tibet with no cell reception and no civilization couldn't be harder than that and, as you pointed out, Cas was more powerful at the time than during TSRTS. For goodness sake, the eclipse was only a couple of days away, it wasn't like Cas needed Dean out of commission for years. He picked a way to stop Dean AND to punish him and to punish Sam at the same time and THAT IS malicious.

As to intending to fix Sam, well he didn't intend it too much because he didn't even try. And when he finally came back and did try, he said there was nothing left of the wall. Since we never saw Sam show any signs that the insanity was getting worse right up until the final breakdown, I conclude that Cas reduced the wall to rubble to start and in all probability could NOT have repaired it even with his "God" powers.

As I have said before, I have family members who suffer from mental illness. It is an ugly, cruel, horrific illness. And Castiel imposed it on Sam for his own CONVENIENCE. Sam has forgiven him. That says a lot about Sam's ability to forgive. It does not make what Castiel did any less evil and I have trouble believing that the Dean that I once knew would forgive Castiel.
Sarah W.
# Sarah W. 2012-11-09 14:49
Sending them away from him, through time, or trapping them all in a loophole would have left them out of their element and incredibly vulnerable to Raphael and Crowley's forces. Again I can see how what he did would not seem like a risk at all to him, he knew Sam would only struggle with his mind for two days, which compared to the apocalypse they were facing seemed like nothing. He clearly stated his intention to fix him, to Castiel his father is the most powerful being that could ever exist, I see how he would assume the power would allow him to completely heal Sam. He didn't try to fix him because the next time he saw him, Sam was not only functioning but was literally stabbing him in the back with the intent to kill him. Not only that but Dean and Bobby were there for that too. It is obvious that the souls began to corrupt him from the start, and with no anchor whatsoever, it makes sense that they eventually overtook him. If there was a chance that he would have gotten over it and, even with the corruption, fixed Sam, the next time he sees Sam after that is when they trap Death and once again attempt to kill him. After that he's pretty much lost, and tt is not until Sam prays to him later on and asks him to let them help him that he finally finds an anchor and is able to override the souls' influence and realize what's happening. But by then he is too weak to even stand, much less heal Sam.
The next time that he's truly in control of himself is in The Born Again Identity, and despite having just regained his memories and being confused and struggling with it all, the first thing he does is fix Sam. He sacrifices himself for him, and fixes him completely. Erases any harm Sam got in his century in the cage.
I'm sorry about your family member. Yet here the story and the ties between the characters have been built out of acts of such epic proportions that I am able to see how it would make sense for Dean to forgive him. Cas isn't just someone he knows, he's the guy who has died and given everything for them and their cause. And as I stated on the first post, what Cas did wasn't for his convenience, it was what he thought was necessary for theirs(Sam and Dean's) and the sake of the world. Dean being raised as a soldier to see strategies and the necessities of war, knows this. He resented and was mad and angry at Castiel for an entire season, which in the Supernatural universe where their problems get resolved in five episodes or so, is long enough for him to begin to move on. Which is what we have seen happening. I'm not sure about what your version of Dean is but with everything Dean has been through he has grown and matured an incredible amount over the last eight seasons.

People change. People mature. People grow. They're able to see beyond their own grudges and see the different point of view, the effect their actions had on those involved, the effect they had in the long run, and the end result. I can see him seeing this all now and beginning to move on. Which as I mentioned before, is exactly what he said and did at the end of season seven. Dean has been through a lot it only makes sense that he would grow.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-10 06:06
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Sending them away from him, through time, or trapping them all in a loophole would have left them out of their element and incredibly vulnerable to Raphael and Crowley's forces.
No, it was shown that he did it as he wanted to distract Dean.What does it matter if anything happens to sam .It is not Sam he shares a profound bond with.Crowley's and Raphael's forces and they also would have thanked Castiel for transporting Dean Sam and Bobby to katmandu.Quote:
Again I can see how what he did would not seem like a risk at all to him, he knew Sam would only struggle with his mind for two days,
Again Cas was no god then or later on to know that.Quote:
He clearly stated his intention to fix him, to Castiel his father is the most powerful being that could ever exist, I see how he would assume the power would allow him to completely heal Sam.
He has not met god,How does he know he will become powerful than god.Quote:
e didn't try to fix him because the next time he saw him, Sam was not only functioning but was literally stabbing him in the back with the intent to kill him.
After Cas figuratively stabbed Sam in the back just to distract Dean,please don't omit thatQuote:
It is obvious that the souls began to corrupt him from the start, and with no anchor whatsoever, it makes sense that they eventually overtook him.
Even if he had a anchor he could not have controlled them.In your comment you say he would become strong like a god (which i don't agree to,I just think he would gain huge power) but that same power can corrupt an angel like Cas too.Quote:
After that he's pretty much lost, and tt is not until Sam prays to him later on and asks him to let them help him that he finally finds an anchor and is able to override the souls' influence and realize what's happening. But by then he is too weak to even stand, much less heal Sam.
Sorry again that was not an anchor that a grass blade to which Cas held on to.By that time i did not even want Sam and Cas to interact.Quote:
The next time that he's truly in control of himself is in The Born Again Identity, and despite having just regained his memories and being confused and struggling with it all, the first thing he does is fix Sam. He sacrifices himself for him, and fixes him completely. Erases any harm Sam got in his century in the cage.
Which he should do and good for him .If he had not taken responsibility and healed sam well he would be worse than Ruby.Quote:
I am able to see how it would make sense for Dean to forgive him.
I can not make sense how Sam forgave him so easily,but then again Sam forgives easily.Lucky i am not Sam then.Quote:
And as I stated on the first post, what Cas did wasn't for his convenience, it was what he thought was necessary for theirs(Sam and Dean's) and the sake of the world.
When Sam did things which he thought would help prevent apocalypse parts of fandom did not give sam the luxury so i cannot give Cas the same luxury which Sam was denied.Quote:
He resented and was mad and angry at Castiel for an entire season, which in the Supernatural universe where their problems get resolved in five episodes or so, is long enough for him to begin to move on.
Oh was Sam forgiven in five episodes?no.Cas was forgiven in 5 episodes or more precisely Cas worked for 5 or less than 5 episodes for Dean's forgiveness and even less for Sam's. I am waiting for show to proove my previous sentence wrong.Quote:
Dean is but with everything Dean has been through he has grown and matured an incredible amount over the last eight seasons.
The right time for Dean to grow up is when Cas requires forgiveness .Yeah right.
Dean should grow but he should forgive Cas when he wants to forgive him not otherwise.
Sarah W.
# Sarah W. 2012-11-10 16:47
I think you're looking at this the wrong way. You're seeing this as a Castiel vs Sam kind of argument --which it is not at all--and your reasoning is coming off kind of bias. Right now here I'm just discussing the question and presenting the reasoning behind the actions of a character in the show.
But I can see that you're not discussing Dean forgiving Cas, because your responses don't match very well with what I'm saying. It doesn't seem like we're talking about the same thing.
I said "Sending them away from him[Castiel], through time, or trapping them all in a loophole would have left them out of their element and incredibly vulnerable to Raphael and Crowley's forces." in response to Percysowner who said
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I think the point is that Cas could have sent Sam, Dean AND Bobby to China and carried on without hurting Sam in the least. Castiel had transported Dean and Sam across space and time in The Song Remains The Same to see try and stop Anna from killing Mary and John. And he wasn't even at full power then. Transporting 3 people to the mountains of Tibet with no cell reception and no civilization couldn't be harder than that and, as you pointed out, Cas was more powerful at the time than during TSRTS. For goodness sake, the eclipse was only a couple of days away, it wasn't like Cas needed Dean out of commission for years.
I was stating that they would have been out of their element and vulnerable to Raphael and Crowley if they had been sent away. Because they would have. Castiel is not the only being that can travel across great distances and time, his enemies would have loved to take out the people that meant the most to him.
At this point Castiel was still struggling with what he was about to do, and despite the fact that his friends were after him he still held hope that they'd change their mind. Hence the fact that he helped when Dean was torturing and about to get killed, helped with Lisa and Ben, and still attempted to talk to Dean. It wasn't until he took the souls that he saw just how against him they were to the point of trying to kill him, that he genuinely renounced any ties to them. But prior to this point they were still fair game for his enemies. We had already seen Raphael target them in the French Mistake, and Crowley in the Man Who Would Be King so it made sense that if they were left defenseless they would have been used against him.

What you said in response to this however, was
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No, it was shown that he did it as he wanted to distract Dean.What does it matter if anything happens to sam .It is not Sam he shares a profound bond with.
I honestly don't see where Dean and Castiel's profound bond have anything to do with Castiel possibly sending them away? About the "what does it matter if anything happens to Sam." Well, they were all hunting him. It wasn't just Dean.
I think you're proposing the fact that he could have only taken Dean out instead(?), but I'm not sure because I'm not really seeing your response match up with the argument. If that's what you're saying, then again, they were all hunting him. It wasn't just Dean.
He targeted Sam because Dean was the leader and as such taking out part of them and distracting the leader made sense. From a strategist move it was logical that it would stop them.
If he had only taken Dean out, then Sam would have assumed the role of leader and worked with Bobby against him. It wouldn't have slowed them down much. Same if it had been Bobby the one taken out. And I already discussed that taking them all out would have left them all vulnerable, he couldn't even kill them because in heaven they'd to Raphael and in hell to Crowley. Again, taking Sam was cruel but it made sense.

Also, about your "it is not Sam he shares a profound bond with." Sam is his friend too, Cas went toe to toe with the Devil for him. He refused to back down and would have died rather than turn again Sam. Even if joining Lucifer would have been infinitely better for him, he still chose to die and stand up rather than betray Sam. Later on he literally went to hell for him. Out of his own volition, he wasn't ordered or asked, he just decided that he wasn't going to let Sam stay in hell and fought to get him out even while heaven was in chaos and a civil war was rooming over his head. Dean and Cas have a profound bond because after pulling Dean out of hell and him being the one that heaven asked him to guard, it was Dean that he talked to the most. It was Dean that he bonded with the most. But after all they'd done and been through Sam and even Bobby became his friends too. It was obvious that he valued them if he was going to stand up for them like that. But again they all turned against him here, so it wouldn't matter who he was closer to, they were all hunting him.
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Crowley's and Raphael's forces and they also would have thanked Castiel for transporting Dean Sam and Bobby to katmandu.
Yeah, they would have thanked him because then all they needed to do was find them and hold them against Castiel. Just like Faith did. Then the apocalypse would have been restarted, Cas and Bobby been killed, Lucifer and Michael gotten out , and Sam and Dean left in the middle again.
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Again Cas was no god then or later on to know that.
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He has not met god,How does he know he will become powerful than god.
You're right he had not met God. But if the 50,000 souls Crowley gave him made him powerful enough to destroy the hierarchy of heaven, present himself as a worthy leader to go up against the last archangel, and start a civil war. It makes sense that he would assume that every soul of every monster from the beginning of time would have given him enough power to fix Sam.
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After Cas figuratively stabbed Sam in the back just to distract Dean,please don't omit that
That is literally the subject of the entire discussion right now, that Cas did something wrong when figuratively stabbed Sam in the back by tearing down his wall, and whether it makes sense that Dean would forgive him for it.
I am arguing that what he did was wrong but was understandable. I'm offering the reasoning behind his actions, and why what he did made sense even though it was wrong.
I brought up the fact that the next time he saw Sam, was when Sam literally attempted to kill him, when I was discussing why he didn't cure him until The Born Again Identity. If anything I think you're ignoring the fact that Sam was hunting him before he took him out. I don't think it was the best think to do, but again I can see Sam's reasoning and like Castiel's, I think it made sense.
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Even if he had a anchor he could not have controlled them.In your comment you say he would become strong like a god (which i don't agree to,I just think he would gain huge power) but that same power can corrupt an angel like Cas too.
Of course it can corrupt an angel, it did. Yet at the beginning this corruption was just starting, it hadn't taken full hold yet. We can see this because of what he does with this power. Even though he's losing control he still uses his power towards good causes. You even see Dean approving of what Castiel is doing in 7x01 where he's listening to the radio while fixing the Impala and nodding his approval at hearing the things Cas has been doing. He may disapprove of the method but he approves of what Cas is trying to do. Because there is still good intentions driving him.
It is because of this that I believe that if he had still considered them his friends, he would have been able to override the soul's influence and used his power to heal Sam like he always intended to do so. But we never got to see that because Sam stabbing him killed any hope to reform their friendship. Again I don't blame Sam, I see why he did it. It makes sense. I was merely stating why he didn't heal him then.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-10 22:52
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I think you're looking at this the wrong way. You're seeing this as a Castiel vs Sam kind of argument --which it is not at all-
I know it comes of as that but Sam and Cas had similar experiences with trying to do good so i could kind see the similarities and the difference in how parts of fandom treated them.Quote:
and your reasoning is coming off kind of bias.
Honestly i want to say the same to you as you had only mentioned about Sam stabbing Cas.Quote:
Right now here I'm just discussing the question and presenting the reasoning behind the actions of a character in the show.
That is why i brought up Sam as their reasoning for what they did was to try to save the world.Quote:
I think you're proposing the fact that he could have only taken Dean out instead(?),
that was not what i meant at all.I was being sarcastic with the profound bond comment.What i found despicable about Cas was, Sam was also his friend but without being sure that he would heal Sam as there was no way he could be sure.I will again disagree with the Raphael and Crowley comment as at that moment Raphael and Crowley's beef was not with Sam or Dean so they would be safe in China than wherever they were.Quote:
Yeah, they would have thanked him because then all they needed to do was find them and hold them against Castiel. Just like Faith did. Then the apocalypse would have been restarted, Cas and Bobby been killed, Lucifer and Michael gotten out , and Sam and Dean left in the middle again.
No they did not need to because what Purgatory can do to Cas it can do to Rapheal to so at that moment Sam and Dean were small fish.Quote:
You're right he had not met God. But if the 50,000 souls Crowley gave him made him powerful enough to destroy the hierarchy of heaven, present himself as a worthy leader to go up against the last archangel, and start a civil war. It makes sense that he would assume that every soul of every monster from the beginning of time would have given him enough power to fix Sam.
Every soul,every living creature and the whole universe was created by God .It was Cas's arrogance that he thought he could do what he proposed to do and Sam payed for that .It does not make sense at all that Cas could assume that he could become powerful as a god as he was not all knowing.Quote:
If anything I think you're ignoring the fact that Sam was hunting him before he took him out.
And you are ignoring that Cas was lying to them even before that.Even after Sam revealed to be alive he did not say that he was the one who yanked out Sam.At that moment he did not know Sam was soulless.What was he ashamed of?Quote:
But we never got to see that because Sam stabbing him killed any hope to reform their friendship.
Oh yes you are not blaming Sam.Well i see the reasoning for them not being avle to reform the relationship because of Cas stabbing Sam in the back so again i disagree.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-11 08:45
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I was stating that they would have been out of their element and vulnerable to Raphael and Crowley if they had been sent away.
Well, actually they wouldn't have been vulnerable to Raphael and Crowley. First neither Raphael or Crowley had targeted Sam and Dean. Even if they had, Sam and Dean still had the Enochian symbols carved on their ribs and have consistently carried hex bags to keep demons from finding them. They would have been basically safe if they were simply removed from the field of play.

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But we never got to see that because Sam stabbing him killed any hope to reform their friendship. Again I don't blame Sam,
How magnanimous of your to not blame Sam for trying to save the world from a power hungry "god" who had just tried to kill him. And before you say he didn't Castiel, Crowley, Balthazar and Death all agreed that insanity was only one potential consequence. They said that taking on the Hell memories could KILL Sam. Yes, yes Castiel could have gone in for resurrection 1,362, but since Death had shown Dean the repercussions of defying the natural order Dean might have said no. Heck Sam might have said no, not that Castiel would have cared what Sam wanted.
Sarah W.
# Sarah W. 2012-11-11 18:17
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First neither Raphael or Crowley had targeted Sam and Dean.
Raphael attempted to kill Sam and Dean in The French Mistake. He was also going to restart the apocalypse and would need them. He would have been all the more happy to kill them, trap them and torture them in heaven (much like Zachariah intended to do) until they said agreed to be vessels.
Crowley targeted them immediately, he himself stated that they weren't to be underestimated. The only reason why he did not dare go near them is because Castiel prohibited it at the cost of their agreement. When unable to get to the boys, Crowley still targeted them by having his demons hold Lisa and Ben hostage with the intent to kill them. Upon having Castiel turn on him, the first thing Crowley did was ally himself with his enemies. It is only rational that if left vulnerable he would have targeted the boys as well.

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Even if they had, Sam and Dean still had the Enochian symbols carved on their ribs and have consistently carried hex bags to keep demons from finding them. They would have been basically safe if they were simply removed from the field of play.
Contrary to what the show covers, it seems only natural that the influence of the supernatural expand beyond the United States. There is just as much as a chance of them being found as there is in the US. Demons and Angels have also been known to enlist the help of humans time and time again, through witches and pastors and vessels and all in between. The boys would have not just stayed where they were, they would have fought to get back to the where they needed to go and would have raised suspicion. Also, at this time Balthazar was still with with the boys and they're known for working with demons. The probability of them just calling for help and getting back to hunting Castiel was very much likely. Time travel would have once again attracted too much attention, and with Raphael running out of time and options he would have been looking at every possibility. Getting hostages to hold against him seems like a reasonable one to me.
[Plus lets be honest traveling or creating a time scene would have been out of the show's budget and was probably dismissed as soon as they options were raised. With this and all the possibilities of them being discovered and buying Castiel no time. It makes sense they didn't happen.]
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How magnanimous of your to not blame Sam for trying to save the world from a power hungry "god" who had just tried to kill him.
I added the "I don't blame Sam" statement for the other person in the conversation because it seems they view the topic as a Sam vs Castiel issue and I wanted to make it clear that I was not taking sides, simply explaining the neglected POV which in this case happened to be Castiel's. I see the reasoning behind Sam's actions as I see Castiel's and wanted to point out that just because I'm presenting Castiel's doesn't mean I'm taking "his side" in this topic. I'm really just explaining how what he did is understandable. 'Wrong but understandable', I believe has been my reoccurring statement in this conversation.

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And before you say he didn't Castiel, Crowley, Balthazar and Death all agreed that insanity was only one potential consequence. They said that taking on the Hell memories could KILL Sam. Yes, yes Castiel could have gone in for resurrection 1,362, but since Death had shown Dean the repercussions of defying the natural order Dean might have said no. Heck Sam might have said no, not that Castiel would have cared what Sam wanted.
Sam being trapped inside his mind was always the most likely scenario. I think everyone believed that to be the case so I can see how Castiel would do it in an attempt to trap him inside his mind(which is what happened), worry Dean, and distract them. Castiel always figured he would have enough time and power to cure him after.
There is the possibility that he could have died and Dean or Sam would have refused resurrection but immediate death was already highly unlikely.
Plus Sam would have died trapped within his mind, so Castiel would have still had to mend his soul and if he was going to do so, and he had never actually reached heaven, and it wasn't technically in his fate to die at that moment, then it makes that Sam would prefer to be returned to earth as well.
There is also the fact that when Sam's memories finally got him and actually put him at risk for death. Dean still searched endlessly for a cure. Even searched for healers, which by his experience in Faith knew that they came at a cost but was willing to look into them. It's how he found Castiel[Emmanue l] his trusty Deus ex machina and when he did, both Dean and Sam still agreed to him being cured. Aka, cheated faith again. So I'm not sure about the whole refusing to be resurrected being too likely.

Again, what Castiel did was wrong, but it was logical and practical under the circumstances. What he did as much as we may want to question it, at the end of the day made sense.
Weighting in the endless different factors I've already presented, and the progression each character has gone through before and after the incident, Dean forgiving Castiel and giving him a chance towards rebuilding their friendship makes sense.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-11 18:34
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I'm presenting Castiel's doesn't mean I'm taking "his side" in this topic. I'm really just explaining how what he did is understandable. 'Wrong but understandable', I believe has been my reoccurring statement in this conversation.
Saying Castiel was trying to save the world, then saying Sam just stabbed him in the back is hardly couching your arguments in non-biased terms. Telling posters that only your interpretation of Castiel's and Sam's actions are correct is derogatory.

Several posters think that Castiel had options that did not involve destroying a man's mind and possibly killing him. Others believe that Castiel did what he needed and meant no harm. Both are interpretations of the actions taken in The Man Who Knew Too Much. Neither is "right" neither is "wrong". Your statement that only you view the facts objectively is not true IMHO.
Sarah W.
# Sarah W. 2012-11-10 16:47
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Sorry again that was not an anchor that a grass blade to which Cas held on to.
You call it a glass blade, I call it an anchor, either way it was something to ground him and go onto in a time of chaos. A sincere offer to help. It made him see just how far the corruption went, and made him accept it.
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By that time i did not even want Sam and Cas to interact.
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I can not make sense how Sam forgave him so easily,but then again Sam forgives easily.Lucky i am not Sam then.
This is how I can tell you're not really open to listening to a different point of view, you're still mad and unable to see the facts as they are. I can see why you would be but this might be the last time I answer because I honestly don't think you're actually considering what I'm saying.
And nope, you're not Sam. Sam was raised as a soldier and just like Dean and Castiel he can see strategy and can distance himself from the issue in order to see all the facts. It's how he forgave Cas. It doesn't mean he still doesn't resent him, because just like Dean he does. But I'm saying that it makes sense that they would allow Cas a chance to atone for his mistakes. Sam knows better than anyone what it is like to do things you regret, and to end up breaking the world despite good intentions. Him reaching out to Cas makes sense.
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When Sam did things which he thought would help prevent apocalypse parts of fandom did not give sam the luxury so i cannot give Cas the same luxury which Sam was denied.
So because some people refuse to listen to see the fact then, you're going to refuse to see the facts now?
Again, here is where I can see that your argument is more Cas vs Sam, than the actual discussion.
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Oh was Sam forgiven in five episodes?no.Cas was forgiven in 5 episodes or more precisely Cas worked for 5 or less than 5 episodes for Dean's forgiveness and even less for Sam's.
Dean visibly struggled with forgiving this through the entirety of season 7.
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The right time for Dean to grow up is when Cas requires forgiveness .Yeah right.
I was stating that Dean has grown as a character. Which he has, he has a better understanding of the world today than he did seven seasons ago. Seven seasons ago everything was black and white. "Shoot first ask questions later." Seven seasons ago all supernatural creatures were bad. Throughout time he has grown to see the grey beyond black and white. His only two deep friendships he's had besides family have been with Supernatural creatures. One who he didn't even believe existed but went to have a "profound bond" with. The other who he would have once killed on sight but who went on to become his "blood brother."
He no longer lives in a world where everything is either good or bad. He can see circumstances and reasoning. In 7x22 he literally tells Cas that he now sees how he did the best he could at the time. He spent all season struggling with this to make sense of Castiel's actions, and it makes sense that by that point he would see the rationale behind them.
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Dean should grow but he should forgive Cas when he wants to forgive him not otherwise.
I wasn't saying he should grow, I was saying he has grown. And I certainly wasn't saying that he needs to do it to forgive Cas. My entire side of the conversation has literally been how I can see Dean forgive Cas and give him a chance at recreating their friendship. Again I'm not saying that he must absolutely do it. Like I said, what he has done is just forgiven Cas enough to give them the change to rebuild what they had. He understand why Cas did what he did, he forgives him, doesn't mean he won't still struggle and resent him at times and have moments of doubt when trusting him. I'm pretty sure we're going to continue to see that from all three. I'm really just saying that Dean forgiving Cas makes sense.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-10 23:06
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Y A sincere offer to help. It made him see just how far the corruption went, and made him accept it.
I agree.Quote:
So because some people refuse to listen to see the fact then, you're going to refuse to see the facts now?
Nope,facts don't explain only Sam's or Cas's viewpoints .They take into consideration all the characters.You are portraying it from Cas's and your understanding of it and me from Sam's and my understanding from it.Quote:
Dean visibly struggled with forgiving this through the entirety of season 7.
But Cas did not struggle the whole season.Quote:
He spent all season struggling with this to make sense of Castiel's actions,
Exactly most of the work was done by Dean not Cas and at that moment Dean was still not accepting monsters and if the latest episode is anything to go by Dean still resents cas so i hope they show it as it is.Quote:
I was saying he has grown.
I did not see Dean as grown then .
Sarah W.
# Sarah W. 2012-11-11 18:27
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I know it comes of as that but Sam and Cas had similar experiences with trying to do good so i could kind see the similarities and the difference in how parts of fandom treated them.
You're right there are endless parallels between Sam and Cas' stories. It is thus why I find myself semi-frustrated with the fact that you recognize Sam's reasons and how they're understandable, but refuse to see the same for Castiel.
I think it all goes back to the second part of your statement, which is that you see the fandom in at least two sides; one with Sam and one with Castiel, and because I believe you saw some from the "Castiel side" resent your character at a point in time, now that they find themselves in the same place you once were, you have now chosen to resent their preferred character. And this just seems like a personal problem you're having to me.
So I think this is genuinely the last time I'm going to reply. You hold a grudge against part of the fandom who your mind has designated as the "Castiel part."
Here if it will drive my point home to you, I will tell you that I have been watching the show from the first episode and I have experienced so many different parts of the fandom in the last seven years, so I have a pretty good understanding of it and base it on that when I say that we are not as divided as you perceived us. Yes, some specialize in their favorite character but even they recognize the need for the others and attempt to see their reasoning. I for my part, focus more about the storyline and how everything affects it, so I try to consider all the sides that go into it.
Here I am really not taking sides, I am just attempting to explain the reasoning behind the actions of the other characters and offer how they would perceive the situation. It is clear to me that you see it from Sam's side of the story, thus by explaining where I see the others (Dean and Castiel) coming from, and how they might perceive Sam's own part, I am attempting to give you a better picture of what happened. I'm doing so in order to support the fact that Dean forgiving Cas is plausible and entirely in character.
Yet I can see from your posts that you are not ready to open up to this possibility at all, that you're still hurt by what happened and by the way some unrelated people reacted to a subject that mattered to you long ago. I can understand that. I would wish that you would make an effort to actually consider what I'm saying, but you're not ready yet and that's okay. But then I'm just wasting my time.
Because frankly at this point I've offered up endless analyses, explanations, examples, and character progressions from different points of view, but you continue to ignore them in turn for picking at the fact that they don't match your grudge for a certain character. I could answer every single one of your statements sentence by sentence and point out the fallacy or mistake, but at this point I would just be repeating myself and quoting myself when explaining because I would be forced to repeat the explanation you ignored. So I'm just not going to go though it because it'd really just be me saying "as I said before" over and over again.

Really this is more of an issue you have to deal with yourself. In the fandom, I honestly didn't see anything that would explain your dislike for what you consider their preferred character to be as strong as it is, but perhaps you saw different in your fandom experience that has led you to hold such a grudge.
From your comments I can see how you want to see Castiel punished, and if so then no matter how many analyses and reasoning I present you with, you are just not ready to open up and give them a true chance.
Seeing Castiel die, sacrifice himself in order to completely cure Sam and fix his error, go crazy, choose to follow them into battle once more despite barely being able to hold it together, go to purgatory, distance himself from Dean to not put him at risk, say he doesn't deserve to live, and get left behind alone in purgatory, apparently have not seen like him struggling with what he did and have not seen enough like penance to you. So, then nothing I could possibly say will matter to you because you are not ready to move on. I've done what I could to help but again, that's something you've got to process on your own.

The show has some episodes where you will see Dean with Castiel still struggling with their friendship, and Sam and Castiel trying to reconcile what happened and working together towards building some kind of bond coming up. Please try to keep an open mind and just take them in. Allow yourself to see what they're saying, think of some of the perspectives I've presented you with, and weight them in. Don't close yourself and call it all OOC, because it really isn't.
I hope with time you come to see that.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-11 18:52
Sam spent an entire season enduring Dean's contempt and mistrust and working to 1) remain clean and not return to demon blood, going so far as to chain himself in a locked bathroom to resist temptation and voluntarily throwing himself into what he believed would be eternal torture and what turned out to be torture of 180 years for his soul.

Castiel went into the river, not to try and kill the Leviathans, but under their influence. He then wanders out finds a hot chick, marries her, discovers healing powers so that the people he heals are grateful and and he is beloved. Sam suffers the results of Castiel's deliberate cruelty (and even if he planned to heal him, Sam was still going to suffer until Castiel deigned to heal him) for 18 episodes TMWKTM through BAI. Castiel suffered for 3 episodes with Lucifer hallucinations and when he recovered consciousness, he reverted to refusing to take responsibility for his actions, preferring to deal with bees and other members of the animal kingdom. You think that is enough sacrifice, I don't. Difference of perception, not of canon.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-12 02:26
Percysowner has adequately replied with almost what you wrote, so i will not repeat it again.Quote:
Because frankly at this point I've offered up endless analyses, explanations, examples, and character progressions from different points of view,
Sorry,I disagree.Quote:
It is thus why I find myself semi-frustrated with the fact that you recognize Sam's reasons and how they're understandable, but refuse to see the same for Castiel.
you say you see other perspectives but you see stabbing Cas in back as only that if you see from Sam Dean and Bobby's perspective it is not as simple.Quote:
From your comments I can see how you want to see Castiel punished,
Nope i don't want him to be punished but trusting him so easily that i don't want.Quote:
towards building some kind of bond coming up.
This what i want to see.Quote:
Allow yourself to see what they're saying, think of some of the perspectives I've presented you with, and weight them in.
I only do that with people who give me the same courtesy.Quote:
"Castiel side"
Sorry ,I am not making this up.
I will tell you why i have been replying to you ...I would not have any obejection if you had started with Dean,cas and Sam pespective.I saw only Cas's perspective given which throws especially Sam in negative light so i gave Sam's perspective.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-10 05:40
Quote:
I think the point is that Cas could have sent Sam, Dean AND Bobby to China and carried on without hurting Sam in the least.
Yes
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-10 05:40
Quote:
He had enough power to rival God
That is what he thought.He had no idea that he would become god.He destroyed Sam's wall on a whim.
KateB
# KateB 2012-11-06 19:35
Word to this lovely post that says it all about Cas and Dean and Sam, and their feelings for each other. Thank you.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-07 11:25
Quote:
-he probably intended to use the gained power and heal him completely-
Which he had no concrete idea he could.
Ardeospina
# Ardeospina 2012-11-06 14:48
ADMIN WARNING!

Clare, you're putting words into percysowner's mouth, which is not acceptable. Please stop doing this or your comments will be edited.

Ardeospina
SaraF
# SaraF 2012-11-06 14:50
IMHO your argument doesn't consider two important factors. First, that the problems with which the Winchesters deal on a daily basis are much bigger than anything any human can experience in real life, i.e. out of the story. They deal with stuff like going to hell, or one of their friends becoming God, or torturing souls for ten years. Sam being hurt is obviously a huge matter, but it's still put into perspective for the brothers in a way it never could for any of us if that was real life.

The second thing is that the person who hurt Sam is no stranger. Dean didn't just forgive some random guy. His relationship with Cas is obviously different in nature than the one he has with his brother, but he's very deeply linked to both. He loves Sam to bits, but he also loves Cas in a way he's never loved anyone else before.

When Cas broke Sam's wall, it was a member of the family hurting another member of the same family. The situation was already very complex on its own. Season seven later showed us that Dean really meant it when he said Cas was family, as he mourned him until his return and could not even function properly without him.

Plus, when Dean Winchester, someone whose principles in life are very much about honesty in relationships and genuinity in affection, forms such a strong connection to someone, I don't think it can ever really break for good. He's always going to try to make it right. At this point, if Dean works hard to fix his relationship with Cas, I can't think of anything more in character for him - especially considering where character development has brought him in eight years - nor can I be surprised in the least if we learn that he's forgiven Cas now.

And finally, Dean is human. Humans can be very biased towards the people they love. Whatever the connotations of that love.
Mim
# Mim 2012-11-06 22:17
I'm sorry about your stepbrother, I really am.
But it's just not the same thing. Because there is something very important that you did not take into consideration here: Cas did not CAUSE an illness. All that kept Sam together in the first place was that wall that started crumbling TWO EPISODES IN after he got his soul back; he had a seizure and was out for a few minutes which, to me, is not a sign of everything being fine. It wouldn't have kept working like that, even if Cas had not broken the wall, it would have been a matter of time before it would've done so itself eventually. Plus, Cas warned Dean to put Sam's soul back beforehand. More than once.
While this does NOT, of course, make Cas breaking Sam's wall okay and I'm still shocked about it myself (I find that much more OOC than Dean forgiving Castiel), in my opinion it severly dampens the action. Because Cas knew all those things too. He would NOT have done it if everything had been fine with the wall.

Besides, it is just not fair to condemn a person or even a character for ONE time they made a wrong call (especially if they had good intentions, viewing the bigger picture... mind you Cas was desperate and none of his friends were on his side, I wouldn't know what to do either), no matter HOW wrong it was. Cas doesn't even justify his actions himself. He has shown NOTHING but remorse since he came back.

You say Dean's main trait it loyalty? Yes, it is. And Castiel is not just ANYONE. He is the best friend he's ever had. You cannot just take the side of the story that Cas hurt Sam, but IF you go down the loyalty road you should also think of the fact what Cas has come to mean to Dean over the years and how he is not going to throw away all of this because of one mistake (with, I cannot stress it enough, had a good motive behind it). I think you simply refuse to see the importance of their relationship, which is, like Dean said himself, brotherly at the least. And the bad things Sam has done with good intentions that Dean has forgiven him for...

Dean has taken his time being mad at Cas and not knowing how to forgive him, but he also sees what his point were in his actions in a way (he explains it to Cas in The Born-Again Identity), and that's good for him, isn't it?
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-07 03:11
Quote:
All that kept Sam together in the first place was that wall that started crumbling TWO EPISODES IN after he got his soul back;
But in the end Cas was the cause .If the wall had broken by itself no one would have blamed casQuote:
even a character for ONE time they made a wrong
Sorry it was not one time.almost whole of season 4 Cas was doing lots of mistakes and was wrong lots of timesQuote:
And the bad things Sam has done with good intentions that Dean has forgiven him for...
After a whole season not instantly
Mim
# Mim 2012-11-07 10:37
Yes, yes, if. All I was trying to point out was that Cas certainly took into consideration (maybe even firmly believed) that the wall would have broken eventually without his "help" and so it was the thing that came to his mind when he needed to stall.

It is really unfair to blame Cas for any supposed "mistakes" in season 4. His loyalties were not with Dean yet, he was still a servant of god and had to question what he'd thought right for his whole existence. AND he made the right call in the end, regardless of what was at stake for him ultimately. Cas has NOTHING to apologize for in season 4.
And, he was wrong lots of times? Wow, sorry, is Dean right all the time? Or anyone on the show? Just no. That is simply not an argument.

Dean did not forgive Cas instantly either, what?! It took a whole season for him as well, maybe longer, even though the Cas died and came back conflicts adds to that because he is, of course, glad to have him back while not being able to forgive what he did at the same time. That only came with Cas making amends starting 7x17 and even then Dean VISIBLY still has a grudge. It's not like Dean forgot it in a heartbeat.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-11-07 10:49
With all respect he break that wall no provocation , no warning he just walked up . That wall might of broke or it might of stood for the rest of Sam's life we dont know .I dont think he was thinking the wall might break so I just speed up the process.

You know Sam has some rights here this isnt just about Castiel and the fact he might of been gracious enough to heal Sam after he broke the wall after his goal had been met.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-07 11:24
Quote:
Yes, yes, if. All I was trying to point out was that Cas certainly took into consideration (maybe even firmly believed) that the wall would have broken eventually without his "help" and so it was the thing that came to his mind when he needed to stall.
and that does not make it right.Quote:
It is really unfair to blame Cas for any supposed "mistakes" in season 4. His loyalties were not with Dean yet, he was still a servant of god and had to question what he'd thought right for his whole existence. AND he made the right call in the end, regardless of what was at stake for him ultimately. Cas has NOTHING to apologize for in season 4.
Pretending to be their friend when he was supposedly a servant of god.which he was not.He was neither their friend nor sevant of GodQuote:
And, he was wrong lots of times? Wow, sorry, is Dean right all the time? Or anyone on the show? Just no. That is simply not an argument.
I will tell you my stance.I have made no secret about Sam being my favourite and even though everyone in this show makes mistakes it is only Sam's that are given more weightage to i just want to balance the scales.Quote:
Dean did not forgive Cas instantly either, what?! It took a whole season for him as well, maybe longer, even though the Cas died and came back conflicts adds to that because he is, of course, glad to have him back while not being able to forgive what he did at the same time. That only came with Cas making amends starting 7x17 and even then Dean VISIBLY still has a grudge. It's not like Dean forgot it in a heartbeat.
Yes but Cas did not have to work hard like Sam to earn hs forgiveness or trust if the purgatory reunion is anything to go by
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-07 08:08
Quote:
All that kept Sam together in the first place was that wall that started crumbling TWO EPISODES IN after he got his soul back;
It would have happened eventually is a weak defense. If way back when Elizabeth Edwards found out the doctors couldn't totally remove the cancer, she was going to die eventually. However if someone knew that John Edwards was a cheating jerk and thought that his liberal ideas would ruin the country, stealing whatever medications Elizabeth was using to keep the cancer at bay would still be a bad thing that they should not be excused for it, even it they thought they were saving the country from an evil man. Also once Castiel did have the power to heal Sam, he made not attempt to do so ONLY because he wanted Dean to suffer for not obeying his commands. So whatever his intentions, Sam still had a broken wall and had to deal with hallucinations for many, many months.

Death said the wall might crumble, but he also said it could last 75 years. Now to Death that is a mere blink of an eye, but with Sam that would have meant it braking when he was 100 and realistically hunters don't usually live to be 105. Yes the wall started to crack 2 episodes in, but Sam stopped scratching and the wall stopped cracking.
Louisa
# Louisa 2012-11-06 06:34
EDITED COMMENT

Louisa, your comment is an attack on another commenter and is against our rules for commenting. You are free to disagree with anyone, but you're to do it in a respectful manner.

Ardeospina
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-06 08:20
EDITED COMMENT

anonymousN, I'm editing this comment as it is a direct response to a comment that I've edited out. You aren't in trouble for this, but I'm going to shut down this line of discussion before it goes too far.

Thank you!

Ardeospina
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-07 01:34
Ok.Thank you.If this is how the new system works i have no problem.I will try my level best to comply with the rules
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-11-06 08:59
EDITED COMMENT

Sharon, I'm editing your quote as the original comment has now been edited out. Thank you! Ardeospina

I dont know wether it's Saint Sam I do know what I would of liked to of seen after Cas brought Sam's wall down but it didnt happen and its moved on.

As for Dean? how he and Cas do/have sorted their relationship is down to them.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-06 09:07
Quote:
I dont know wether it's Saint Sam I do know what I would of liked to of seen after Cas brought Sam's wall down but it didnt happen and its moved on.
I agree it is definitely not saint!Sam that i wanted to see but it was what i got.. :lol:
Prix68
# Prix68 2012-11-21 17:04
Sam got back into hunting originally to get revenge for Jessica. At the end of episode 1 Dean dropped him off at his apartment because he wasn't going to continue hunting with Dean anymore. Sam made the choice to hunt on his own. I think Dean forgives everyone, he just never forgets or completely trusts them again. I don't think he completely trusts Cas now. Both Sam and Cas have given Dean reasons for not trusting their judgement. I believe the song "Man in the Wilderness" was the writers way of giving us some insight into how Dean feels coming out of purgatory. He was ambiguous about hunting last season but after a year in purgatory he's found his reason for getting back in the game. He's taking Bobby's last piece of advice, finding his reason to hunt.
Bryana
# Bryana 2012-11-06 05:44
Dean seems to have a serious case of PTSD from Purgatory. How do you think this will continue to affect him moving forward?
-Dean does seem to have PTSD, which is only natural given that he went through an entire year of fighting monsters (a good number of which he killed). We don't know as of yet how long he was alone before Benny and before Cas returned. Being on constant guard for so long had to have been incredibly stressful. However, I think that once he escaped, he sort of missed being there. It was easy because the only think he had to focus on was fighting. Once back on Earth, killing monsters suddenly became harder -- there are now casualties, monsters who aren't bad, etc. I think the PTSD combined with this will cause him to have some serious issues with his own fighting

Dean's clearly not over the fact that Sam didn't look for him while he was in Purgatory (that we know of, for now.) How do you think the two of them will resolve this issue? How would you like to see them resolve the issue?
-I think he'll have issues with it for a while. Dean's used to believing that only a few people have his back. But now Bobby's dead, Cas is gone, Benny has his own life to live, so all he has left is Sam. But I think he'll eventually understand that hunting really was never what Sam wanted. He's been consistently trying to escape it and has never managed. I think he'll reflect on the peace he felt when he was with Lisa and eventually come to understand that that's what Sam wants in life, even if it isn't what Dean wants. As an older brother, I think he'll eventually come to terms with letting Sam live his life.

What do you make of Dean and Benny's friendship? Do you think it will affect Sam and Dean's relationship? If so, how?
- Dean and Benny's friendship is a great thing. Having Benny n his side in purgatory, as I said earlier, must have taken some stress off of his shoulders. He had someone he could count on. We haven't seen much of how their friendship developed yet, but it's clear that Dean's trust in Benny is nearly infallible, so something serious had to have happened for him to earn that. I think it might strain Sam and Dean's relationship though. In and of itself, it wouldn't be a huge deal. But Sam will feel like it's a double standard (especially given that Dean killed Amy behind his back) and this, coupled with their argument over Sam quitting hunting, might lead to a serious disagreement. Still, I expect that they will eventually come to terms with it.

Given his actions in Purgatory, it seems like Dean has completely forgiven Cass. Do you think this is true? How do you think their time in Purgatory will change their relationship?
-I don't think Dean has completely forgiven Cas, and I don't think he will for a long while yet. Cas made some serious mistakes. But making mistakes is a natural thing to do. Humans can make some pretty bad ones and, as a being greater than a human, it makes sense that Cas' mistakes will be greater too. We can't forget that everything Cas did, he did because he thought it would protect the Winchesters. It is possible to be mad at people who messed up (family, friends, etc.) and still care about them. Dean still cares; he never stopped caring, but that doesn't mean he isn't still mad. Cas will still need to earn back Dean's complete trust. I think their time in Purgatory together (especially with Benny as a mediator to stop quarrels) might lead to a closeness we've never seen between them before. They have some pretty intense moments in prior seasons, but now, with no impending doom to distract them, they'll finally be able to flush out their relationship. Whether that will lead to becoming closer friends, like family, or to a kind of deeper relationship is debatable. Whichever way it goes, I have no doubt that their relationship will change for the better, the way everyone has always expected.
m
# m 2012-11-06 06:30
Great discussion so far!
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-11-06 07:34
I honestly don't know where they are going with Dean this season. At first I thought it was the PTSD thing, but there were only two episodes showing that and I haven't even seen any PTSD 'leakage' in the last three episodes. Where did it go? Has Dean healed himself? Those are the questions I'm asking myself right now, but I'm willing to wait and see where Dean's story is going.

Obviously, Dean liked the 'purity' of Purgatory, and I think that's because all the massive side crap was dropped. It was kill or be killed day in and day out. He couldn't and didn't have to think about anything else. Now that he's back, the real world is confronting him, so he has to deal with more than just being a 'killer' or a 'hunter,' and I think that is being addressed, starting with Kevin's note.

I will admit to beginning to worry that Dean is being used once again to tell the story of Cas and Benny; support characters, but my judgment is heavily colored from seven years of dropping Dean's storylines.

I had two absolute requirements for the show this year, and one of them was that Dean have a meaningful story and that that story is brought to some conclusion. I've posted what I hope for both Sam and Dean in the Sam discussion thread, so I'm not going to repeat it here. I'm enjoying Dean's role very much so far this season, and I'm just going to wait and see what plays out and if what plays out is resolved somehow.

But I do want to address Cas and percyowner's and Anya's responses. I share percyowner's viewpoint and, obviously, not Anya's. I do understand that Dean is 100% loyal so, of course, he would fixate on finding Cas. His fixation began when he thought there was no way out of Purgatory. After meeting Benny and finding out there was a way out, of course Dean would want to find Cas and take him out, too. Saving people was always Dean's motivation for hunting.

At this point, however, I don't understand Dean's instant forgiveness of Cas, who has absolutely used and manipulated Dean as much as any of the other angels. I judge Cas' betrayal as a mortal sin, even if Dean doesn't, and; no, I don't think sacrificing himself to save Sam makes up to Dean what Cas did. It makes up to Sam, but the betrayal of Dean goes to the very core of Dean Winchester.

The only thing I can figure out is that because Purgatory was pure and required a constant fight for his life, Dean just let go of everything that happened in the past two years...there was no room for that down there. But he's up here now and he thinks Cas is dead.

The other thing about Cas is that I believe he is the first friend that Dean feels knows him inside and out and all the crap that he's been through. He never has to explain himself to Cas, and Cas still accepts him for what and who he is. Maybe this acceptance is something Dean cherishes so much that he is able to set aside the trust betrayal.

I really don't know or understand how Dean can just forgive Cas for throwing his friendship back into his face, Sam wall or no wall, and I really don't think the fans should be expected to fill in the blanks on something this major. (Granted, at this point, we don't know if we have to fill in the blanks or not, but from what future episode descriptions tell us, in all liklihood, that's what I am expecting.

As a viewer of the show, I haven't forgiven Cas, as I don't think the show has addressed the issue satisfactorily or explained it enough for me to do so.

Yes, forgiveness is a wonderful human trait that is important in our world, but this show is not in our world. Forgiving Cas may be something that will keep Dean human, but the show needs to show the viewers how that came about or how it is at work in relation to Dean. There's been entirely too much 'telling' in this show these last couple of years while 'showing' something else.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-06 08:13
I do agree with your wishes Ginger. Whatever story they are doing with Dean and how Purgatory effected him, I hope it does mean something and they actually bring it to a real conclusion. No more Dean is depressed for season after season. I know that depression can go on for years IRL, but I don't watch Supernatural for real life. I want Dean to become as emotionally healthy as a hunter can be. I also don't want Dean to be the door into the tragic stories of Benny and Cas. Dean does deserve his own story.

You have given some very good reasons why Dean would look for Cas in Purgatory and work to get him out. So thanks for that.
jen
# jen 2012-11-06 08:05
just like the whole sam-goes-bloodj unkie with ruby thing, dean will probably never fully FORGIVE him for his actions, but i believe he fully trusts him again.
what is obvious and true, is that the time in purgatory has made them both realise that not only do they need eachother, but they want eachother to need them.
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-11-06 15:23
Quote:
just like the whole sam-goes-bloodjunkie with ruby thing, dean will probably never fully FORGIVE him for his actions, but i believe he fully trusts him again.
what is obvious and true, is that the time in purgatory has made them both realise that not only do they need eachother, but they want eachother to need them.
I actually view this differently. I don't think Dean trusts Sam to have his back this season. There's been a few comments from Dean to Sam about him being 'rusty.' I remember one in particular from Heartache about the murders in Iowa, "I guess you missed that one, huh?"

Also, Dean was all set to go after Kevin himself, and it was Sam that chose to go with him and then to do the Holy Grail hunt.

At this point, I think Dean knows and is willing to hunt by himself. But here's the controversial part: I think Sam need Dean and that Dean only wants Sam to be with him. Dean has a lot to work on right now, but confidence in his hunting skills is not one of them.

I also think that Sam believes that he has found peace and safety without hunting, and that Dean represents everything he does not want in his life. That belief may very well be delusional and, if so, Sam doesn't realize that. IMO, Sam simply cannot risk losing Dean again, but he hasn't recognized that in himself.

Anyway, that's how I am reading the brothers as they are at this stage in the season, and it certainly doesn't mean that they don't love each other. It simply means they are different people and a year apart brought out their basic natures.
Tammy
# Tammy 2012-11-06 08:18
Given his actions in Purgatory, it seems like Dean has completely forgiven Cass. Do you think this is true? How do you think their time in Purgatory will change their relationship?


Well first of all you need to remember that Dean doesn't entirely forgive someone, but he moves on. Heck, did he ever really forget Sam for the demon blood? Or Bobby for selling his soul to Crowley. Or has he ever forgiven himself? No, he doesn't.
Dean didn't instantly forgive Cas- but if you've seen season 7 you'll know that he UNDERSTOOD him, he didn't forgive him. He understood. He even said so himself. Dean was without Cas for months, he obviously had time to think things though.

Castiel did the same thing Sam did in season 4. He did something terrible because he thought it would make things better, he thought he could save the world.


Cas is important to Dean; who'd rather get himself, Cas and Benny killed than leaving purgatory without the angel. He even said ''Cas, buddy, I need you.''
It PISSES ME OFF when people hold Castiel's actions against him, but seem to forget all the shit Sam, Dean, Bobby etc. has done. These characters make mistakes, they are flawed- but they're still family. Family is the most important thing in the show, and Cas is a part of the family.''Family don't end with blood''

Castiel has hurt Dean and Sam. Just like Sam and Dean have hurt him in the past. Obviously they got a lot of issues, this isn't new- but they learn to move on and save people. Cause' in the end family is family

I'd also like to point out that Cas wanted to go to Dean for help, but didn't do it cause' he didn't want to bother Dean and his normal life with Lisa. Cas never chose Crowley over Dean, he chose Dean over himself.

I honestly think the relationship with Dean and Cas will be, as it has always been, confusing, colorful and interesting. And after losing Cas AGAIN I think he'll just be happy to get him back.
Mel
# Mel 2012-11-06 09:08
Quote:
-I don't think Dean has completely forgiven Cas, and I don't think he will for a long while yet. Cas made some serious mistakes. But making mistakes is a natural thing to do. Humans can make some pretty bad ones and, as a being greater than a human, it makes sense that Cas' mistakes will be greater too. We can't forget that everything Cas did, he did because he thought it would protect the Winchesters. It is possible to be mad at people who messed up (family, friends, etc.) and still care about them. Dean still cares; he never stopped caring, but that doesn't mean he isn't still mad. Cas will still need to earn back Dean's complete trust. I think their time in Purgatory together (especially with Benny as a mediator to stop quarrels) might lead to a closeness we've never seen between them before. They have some pretty intense moments in prior seasons, but now, with no impending doom to distract them, they'll finally be able to flush out their relationship. Whether that will lead to becoming closer friends, like family, or to a kind of deeper relationship is debatable. Whichever way it goes, I have no doubt that their relationship will change for the better, the way everyone has always expected.
I agree wholeheartidly with this comment, Bryana.
Anja
# Anja 2012-11-06 09:27
Quote:
These characters make mistakes, they are flawed- but they're still family. Family is the most important thing in the show, and Cas is a part of the family.''Family don't end with blood.''
For me, this right here is the main idea of the show, thank you for pointing that out.
onamelancholyhill
# onamelancholyhill 2012-11-06 09:49
This is exactly the aim of the series. Sam, Dean and Cas are family, whatever haters like it or not. And when a member of your family commits a mistake you forgive them, because you love them. Even when it hurt you bad, you still forgive. And it's a beautiful concept.

I find haters sad and funny at the same time. People trying to deny love... it looks like they in real life wouldn´t forgive a person they love if they committed a mistake. I repeat, it's funny and sad.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-06 13:13
I highly doubt Sam considers Castiel to be his "brother" or his "family." Jared even said in an interview that Sam and Castiel are not close, and that Castiel is basically Dean's friend.

That may change this year, but nothing I've seen has lifted Castiel to "family" or "brother" for Sam.

JMO.
onamelancholyhill
# onamelancholyhill 2012-11-06 16:38
You are assuming, that's all. Sam is not Dean, he is more open to friendship and relationship apart from family and it's obvious for me Cas is too a very important person in Sam's life and he considers him his friend. If it's because Cas is very important for Dean and as transitive law it's important for Sam as well, or it's just because a Sam thing... I don't know. But the fact that Sam considers Cas "one of them" and Cas considers Sam "his friend" (they said that, I'm not inventing anything here) clearly means they are close enough.

I really need Cas and Sam relationship to improve this year, because they need to have a friend and because it would close a lot of mouths who try to create a conflict between these two characters when they clearly care about each other and are important in the other one's life.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-13 09:26
I'm just repeating what Jared said about Sam and Castiel. Apparently, at the time that interview was taken, Jared did not think Sam and Castiel were friends. I happen to agree with Jared. Sam and Castiel barely interact with each other. That may change this year, but they have not been presented as "friends" to me. I'm not saying Sam is opposed to being Castiel's friend. The writers have simply not developed that relationship. Again, that may change this year.
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-13 10:08
Jared also said that Sam is happy that Dean has a friend outside of the brothers' relationship and that he doesn't feel the need to be involved in it nor does he have any problem with it. I think that they are going to be pushed into each others company more this season.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-13 11:25
That may have been the same interview I read. All I know is Jared said that Sam and Cas didn't have a relationship and that Cas was really Dean's friend, not Sam's. Sam is not jealous of Dean and Cas's friendship.

I think it's perfectly fine that Sam and Cas aren't friends. They don't have to be friends because Dean and Cas are. I also have no problem with the show developing their (Sam and Castiel) relationship more and actually creating a friendship btw them that is separate and apart from Dean.

In my view, they haven't done that as of yet but can if they choose.
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-13 11:50
Yes, could be, I remember him saying it at a Con which gets reported here. I would love to see Sam and Cas becoming friends - I think the dynamic would be so good!

Of course Jared would drive Misha to drink messing with him while they do their scenes together and they will likely both end up getting fired ... but the gag reels would be awesome! :-)
KateB
# KateB 2012-11-06 19:45
Quote:
nothing I've seen has lifted Castiel to "family" or "brother" for Sam.
"I still think you're one of us, deep down..."

Sam, to Cas, in 7.01

"I know you never did anything but try to help. I realize that, Cas, and I'm grateful. We're all grateful. And we're gonna help you get better, okay? No matter what it takes."

Sam, to Cas in 7.21
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-10 06:39
Quote:
"I still think you're one of us, deep down..." Sam, to Cas, in 7.01 "I know you never did anything but try to help. I realize that, Cas, and I'm grateful. We're all grateful. And we're gonna help you get better, okay? No matter what it takes." Sam, to Cas in 7.21
Thank you for reminding me how forgiving Sam is.Cas deserving that forgiveness is a different matter altogether.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-13 09:44
I think Sam was talking more about Castiel being a good being and a member of TFW rather than him being a "brother" to him and Dean in 7.01.

And Sam is very forgiving person. He knows what it's like to make horrible choices so I was not surprised he easily forgave Castiel. I'm still not sure that made them brothers, family, or friends.

I have no problem with Sam and Castiel being friends. I just think the writers could spend some time building that relationship like they have with Dean. Often, I feel the writers have Sam piggyback off of Dean's relationships like with Bobby and Castiel rather than building Sam's own relationships with those people.
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-11-06 15:39
Quote:
This is exactly the aim of the series. Sam, Dean and Cas are family, whatever haters like it or not. And when a member of your family commits a mistake you forgive them, because you love them. Even when it hurt you bad, you still forgive. And it's a beautiful concept.

I find haters sad and funny at the same time. People trying to deny love... it looks like they in real life wouldn´t forgive a person they love if they committed a mistake. I repeat, it's funny and sad.
Family or not, and despite Dean saying he thought of Cas "like a brother," I don't. But that's not the point, and there is no 'hate' to it. Even with family, you don't make yourself a doormat and put up with everything a family member may do. People set unspoken boundaries for what they will put up with, sometimes to the point that they become principles. One of Dean's boundaries is 'trust.' He begged Cas to trust him when Cas was hell-bent on getting the souls out of Purgatory, and Cas demeaned Dean by saying he couldn't stop him because he was a mere measly human.

I do agree with those who say that Dean can 'forgive' wrongs done to him, but he doesn't forget. Dean is an ace at compartmentaliz ing his feelings. I don't think he has forgotten anything Sam has done, and I don't think he would forget that Cas used Dean's friendship against him.

That's just my thinking, and maybe the blanket forgiveness speech was supposed to cover that. I hope not. When Dean have that speech, he was specifically speaking to Bobby about his guilt over Rufus and to Sam about his unsuredness and lingering guilt for what he had done and for Sam's wondering if Dean held any hard feelings.
selfishjean
# selfishjean 2012-11-06 10:03
Quote:
-I don't think Dean has completely forgiven Cas, and I don't think he will for a long while yet. Cas made some serious mistakes. But making mistakes is a natural thing to do. Humans can make some pretty bad ones and, as a being greater than a human, it makes sense that Cas' mistakes will be greater too. We can't forget that everything Cas did, he did because he thought it would protect the Winchesters. It is possible to be mad at people who messed up (family, friends, etc.) and still care about them. Dean still cares; he never stopped caring, but that doesn't mean he isn't still mad. Cas will still need to earn back Dean's complete trust. I think their time in Purgatory together (especially with Benny as a mediator to stop quarrels) might lead to a closeness we've never seen between them before. They have some pretty intense moments in prior seasons, but now, with no impending doom to distract them, they'll finally be able to flush out their relationship. Whether that will lead to becoming closer friends, like family, or to a kind of deeper relationship is debatable. Whichever way it goes, I have no doubt that their relationship will change for the better, the way everyone has always expected.

They are my words, exactly.

I cannot believe some things I'm reading here.
Max H
# Max H 2012-11-06 10:33
"I would guess that Cas will be unhappy about Dean’s bond with Benny and will try to enlist Sam in undermining that bond. I also think he will work to undermine Sam’s bond with Dean because I do think Cas wants Dean all to himself"

Just, wow. After every single unselfish, well-intentione d action Cas has ever made for the Winchesters, for Dean, that is actually an opinion?
5.04 If dean says it’s time to go out in a blaze of glory, win or lose, so be it.

6.21 Let it Bleed I always come when you call.

All Castiel’s ever tried to do is fix things for others. He tried to fix Dean, he tried to fix Sam, he tried to fix the world, and even when he thinks absolutely nothing of himself, he’s trying to fix things.

7.23 All he ever did was try to defend a Winchester, even when defenseless against Dick.



If Cas wanted Dean all to himself, wouldn't he NOT have stayed one step ahead to lead Leviathans away from Dean, ignored Dean's prayers and all? But he didn't, he tried to keep Dean safe, not appeared, got rid of Benny and had Dean all to himself.

For all the mistakes he made, I thought it was pretty clear in TMWWBK that he only did what he thought was right, and let's face it, for every mistake this angel has ever made, the Winchesters have done worse.

What's clearer is that Dean never did forgive Cas for all the things he did, and that's simply Dean. Like Tammy says, Dean never really forgives anyone. I don't think he ever truly forgives, or forgets. He understands.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Hc1EzSQ5VR8/UJkk0ydql4I/AAAAAAAAAsU/npc_Gdpbs6o/s640/New+Picture+(3).bmp

I don't know, but it sure looks to me like Dean has changed throughout the seasons, and I believe he knows how often an angel apologizes to a human for making mistakes.

Given his actions in Purgatory, it seems like Dean has completely forgiven Cass. Do you think this is true? How do you think their time in Purgatory will change their relationship?

Let's go back. When Lucifer was free, Cas was dead and he was in a hell of a hopeless situation and Sam betrayed him for a demon, the betrayal and the hurt from it was ridic large.

But what did he do? He pushed on to protect Sam, it's an instinctive thing, something that has priority over all else. Did he forgive? Did he forget? I doubt so. It just means he has Sam's back and would protect him.

In Purgatory, it seems like Dean has completely forgiven Cas. I don't think that's true. He may get over it, move on, but I think he will always remember that sting of betrayal when he realised Cas lied to him, Sam and Bobby.

Besides, it's way too early to decide if Dean has completely forgiven Cas. I mean, how many minutes of screen time did Purgatory get in total haha. But I would hazard a guess to say that the time in Purgatory was way too long, long enough for Dean to have a lot of alone-time to think about everything, to understand the actions of Cas.

It's simple, "family don't end with blood, boy".

"Cas, buddy, I need you." If Dean ever admits to needing anybody, it'd be family. That'd be Sam, Bobby and Cas.

Their relationship wouldn't change. They may grow closer from the entire episode in Purgatory together, but family is family. It's like how Sam and Dean's relationship won't change, and how Dean will continue thinking of angels as "friggin' angels" and how Dean will call for Cas, even if he's in a civil war.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dAOFNOXmpdQ/UJkroCw85OI/AAAAAAAAAs0/tbYg0IAbA7I/s640/New+Picture+(4).bmp

^^^If anything changes, it'd be better communication. I mean, hey, Cas and Dean, they're verbalizing! This is the doorway to a better, healthier relationship ok.



*disclaimer, images courtesy of reichenbachfall .tumblr
Beanie06
# Beanie06 2012-11-06 11:12
I might be mistaken, and I'm sure if I am, I will quickly be set straight, but:

"Given his actions in Purgatory, it seems like Dean has completely forgiven Cass. Do you think this is true? How do you think their time in Purgatory will change their relationship?"

Didn't Dean stand over Rufus's grave with Sam and Bobby and give them a blanket of forgivness for everything they'd done?

Sam even reminded Dean that 'some of us has done a lot of crap.'

There's forgiving and then there's forgiving and forgetting.

"What do you make of Dean and Benny's friendship? Do you think it will affect Sam and Dean's relationship? If so, how?"

Sam asked Dean to accept Ruby and didn't Dean try? Sam should remember that Dean's instincts towards Ruby were not far off.

If Dean should ask Sam to give Benny a chance, Sam should try.

I'm not so sure Sam wants to have a relationship with Dean in the hunting world. If his wish is to return to school or to his life with the Vet, then hug good-bye, invite big brother home for the holidays and be content.
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-06 17:22
I think that the blanket forgiveness was an on-his-deathbed thing. Not sure that makes any difference to the purpose of it though :D It isn't clear to me whether he meant 'everything you did before is forgiven now and anything you do in the future will be forgiven'. It only really matters in terms of if he starts calling out Sam on his history at some point.
ilovehowyouletmefall
# ilovehowyouletmefall 2012-11-06 11:44
Quote:
** Dean seems to have a serious case of PTSD from Purgatory. How do you think this will continue to affect him moving forward?
I don't think it's something he'll ever "get over"; rather it's something he'll incorporate into who he is. I think it'll mean that he'll continue to feel most at home when he's hunting, and that he'll feel like he's even less a part of the non-hunting world than he was before.

Quote:
** Dean's clearly not over the fact that Sam didn't look for him while he was in Purgatory (that we know of, for now.) How do you think the two of them will resolve this issue? How would you like to see them resolve the issue?
I hope that Dean comes to understand and accept Sam's decision. I think we'll find that Sam had a hard time psychologically dealing with the idea of continuing on with hunting. I think that Sam tries to rationalize the decision, but that it wasn't entirely rational for him.

Quote:
** What do you make of Dean and Benny's friendship? Do you think it will affect Sam and Dean's relationship? If so, how?
I like their friendship. I've been hoping that Dean's black-and-white morality of monsters-are-monsters-and-we-need-to-kill-them would be challenged for a while, so I'm really glad about Benny. I think that having more moral complexity will, eventually, after this initial conflict, make Dean more accepting of Sam.

Quote:
** Given his actions in Purgatory, it seems like Dean has completely forgiven Cass. Do you think this is true? How do you think their time in Purgatory will change their relationship?
I really think forgiveness is moot at this point. To me, it was clear throughout "Meet The New Boss" that Dean's anger at Cas was born out of defensiveness, that he thought that if he gave Cas another chance he'd end up getting hurt again. But that was a fear with him because did want to believe that there was a chance of fixing things, and his biggest concern was being disappointed again. He decided to sit back and let the world explode rather than run the risk of Cas disappointing him again. That showed that he was still emotionally invested in the guy.

So I think this whole thing of "omg has Dean forgiven Cas?" is pretty short sighted and has ignored Dean's behaviour over the course of the entire conflict. Despite everything that happened, he didn't want to lose Cas at the end of "The Man Who Knew Too Much." He was basically going through a weird kind of mourning for Cas throughout "Meet the New Boss" where he was trying to act as if his friend was dead because he still cared about him enough to be hurt again. He kept the trench coat. The loss of Cas weighed on Dean the entire time he thought Cas was dead.

I don't think forgiveness was ever the issue, because whether or not Dean could forgive Cas, he always wanted Cas back in his life. That's the main thing. Working out their issues was secondary. Like in the original script for 7x17, Dean told Cas that he "never stopped wanting to fix" things between them, and regardless of whether Jensen thought the line was too corny, Sera Gamble understood Dean's motivation when she wrote that.

In Purgatory, whether or not Dean can forgive Cas completely is besides the point. He just doesn't want to lose his friend again. And that's entirely in-character and consistent with the way Dean's behaved since the end of season 6.
MatildaLouise
# MatildaLouise 2012-11-06 11:46
I want to respond to the Castiel stuff. My apologies since I know the topic of this is supposed to be about Dean, but I really wanted to address some of the things that were mentioned.

I don't feel as though Castiel has gotten off easy for what he did to Sam. The character is suffering and continues to suffer for the consequences of his actions (but clearly some fans will never feel as though Castiel has suffered enough). Dean's forgiveness has not come easy (indeed some argue Dean hasn't fully forgiveness him for what he did to Sam) and he spent more of season 7 bitterly resenting Castiel's betrayal. Then Castiel returned, apologized for what he did, and took Sam's crazy on his own, but even that isn't enough for some fans to forgive the character, but let's look at it from this perspective.

Sam's wall was going to fall anyway. Castiel was wrong to do what he did, but Castiel is NOT the reason Sam has his problem in the first place. It was a matter of time before Sam's wall was going to fall, and had already showed signs it was going to fall. With or without Cas it would have fallen, and Sam would have been in the same situation he was in season 7.

The way some fans make it out, you'd think that Castiel forced Sam to jump into that pit with Lucifer. No doubt those people would point to Castiel letting Sam out of the panic room and lay the whole apocalypse at his feet instead of Sam taking personal responsibility for his actions, actions in which Sam had plenty of warning that he was doing was wrong. Ruby manipulated him yes, but he chose to ignore his brother and everything else that indicated that his was NOT the right thing to do.

Castiel letting Sam out of the panic room was never dealt with because there wasn't a need to deal with it in my opinion. Castiel was brainwashed and tortured and taken up to Bible Camp and told that what the angels were scheming was the right thing to do in order to usher in paradise. Do people seriously think that if Castiel has refused the open that panic room door that the WHOLE APOCALYPSE would have been COMPLETELY AVERTED? The angels just would have shrugged and said "Aw shucks! We don't get to start that apocalypse because Castiel refuses to open the panic room door for us."

No, if Castiel had refused, they'd know their reeducation of him had failed, they'd have killed him and sent someone else to open the panic room door and everything else would have proceeded as it did except Dean wouldn't have had Castiel to break him out. And Castiel has suffered for not getting Dean to Sam in time. He was KILLED by Raphael, and hunted by his own people. I guess if getting killed and being hunted isn't enough of a punishment for Castiel succumbing to torture and brainwashing that lead him to letting out Sam, then it's not, but in my opinion it is.

I'm not sure what more the show needed to do for with that issue? I guess some fans wanted Dean and Sam to find out and be angry at Castiel hate him for not being strong enough to resist brainwashing and torture? Then Castiel should have grovelled and apologized for being so weak and maybe flogged himself for good measure? I'm personally glad the show didn't go there because that sort of characterizatio n of Sam and Dean would have only made me hate them.

So unless you want to blame Castiel entirely for starting the apocalypse and don't think Sam is responsible for his own actions, the fact is Sam took on Lucifer and jumped into that pit to save the world and make amends. He had been resigned to spend an eternity locked in with Lucifer. An eternity of suffering and torment until Castiel found a way to retrieve his body. Castiel didn't realize he had failed to retrieve Sam's soul at the time, but having Sam's body made it possible for his soul to be reunited with it later.

The wall, once again only a stop-gap measure, only served to delay the inevitable. Lucifer's tortures are the consequences of Sam's actions for trusting Ruby and unleashing Lucifer, and Sam in the beginning of 7.17 had accepted this. He didn't blame Castiel because he knew he would inevitably be in this situation even if Castiel hadn't broken his wall. He was resigned and accepted his fate as his penance just as he was resigned and accepted it in season 5 before he jumped in.

Then Castiel does more than rebuild this wall that was never GOING to last in the first place. Castiel takes on Sam's suffering, the damage Lucifer did to his soul, he takes that all onto himself and almost sacrifices his own sanity in the process. Thanks to Castiel, Sam is freed from the consequences of his actions in Lucifer's Rising and has never been better. For once he's not having demon blood cravings or powers he can't control, or is acting like a soulless monster. Castiel gave back Sam's sanity and a chance for the first time in a long time allows him to be SAM again.

So to reiterate, YES it was WRONG of Castiel to hurt Sam. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, but is it truly something so utterly beyond forgiveness when you take in account the full situation? I don't think what happens here is fully comparable to a real world scenario of someone physically and mentally abusing a family member as Castiel is NOT the one responsible for Sam's trauma. Lucifer is the one who tortured him, and Sam had accepted it because he was the one who screwed up and released him and wanted to put him back to save the world.

The closest real world equivalent I can think of for this situation would be if Person A stole Person B's psychiatric drugs that causes the person to have a mental breakdown due to their already existing mental illness, but then if we follow that analogy through what happens in season 7, Person A shows up again later and cures Person B from the mental illness so they no longer have to take drugs to keep it under control. They are cured from the condition *completely*. In that situation should the person B, and person B's family never forgive Person A? Should they reject Person A forever even if Person A is totally and completely repentant and Person A has saved their lives in the past and done many other things for them in the past? I don't know. I guess some do believe that though I honestly don't.

This whole convoluted situation season 6 gave us was just a mess period, and again CASTIEL WAS WRONG FOR WHAT HE DID, and Castiel rightfully suffered it, but I guess some feel his suffering wasn't enough, and that he should never be forgiven. Nevermind that Castiel had died for Sam and Dean time and again. Nevermind that Castiel rebelled against everything he had know for billions of years in order to fight for humanity because a special, certain human convinced him that humanity was worth fighting for. Nevermind that he waged an entire civil war not just on Sam and Dean's behalf but on the behalf of all of humanity to protect them from Raphael who wanted to RESTART the whole thing all over again. Nope, none of those things matter because in one terrible moment of anger, one terrible moment of misjudgment Castiel lashed out hurt Sam and apparently Sam and Dean should never ever forgive him, or if they DO forgive him, they shouldn't ever been friendly toward him. They shouldn't ever help Castiel. They should just scorn him, and tell him go away I guess (even though they could use his help and continue to use his help)? Honestly, if the show had Sam and Dean do that, I wouldn't find them very likable as characters anymore, but this one of those "your mileage will vary" situations I suppose.

I feel like some fans are never going to forgive Sam and Castiel for their mistakes and as someone who loves both those characters, it saddens me greatly. I not only love them but I love Dean as well. They're all flawed beings who have tried over and over again to do the right thing. I want to see more of them working together. I want them to work through these issues and be a family again. Dean called Castiel family, and you don't give up on family. You don't stop loving your family.

One person didn't seem to understand Alfie saying Castiel has "too much heart". Castiel's heart, his love for Sam and Dean in particular and his love for humanity in general, lead Castiel down this path. The angels Castiel killed were Raphael's soldiers, so the remaining angels were on Castiel's side. Some are going to hate him because they believe Castiel let them down, but others understand that Castiel did what he did in order protect humanity.

So to sum it up with have three fascinating characters who have made mistakes, who have from time to time hurt one another. They've all suffered for these mistakes, not enough according to some, but it's surely not a question of them NOT having suffered AT ALL, no? I think in Castiel's case in particular that Sam and Dean aren't wrong to forgive him, and they aren't wrong to continue to love him and consider him family, and I for one am pleased at the moment with how the show seems to be handling Castiel's arc for once (and I hope I can continue to say that as the season progresses).

Wow, I didn't realize how long this was going to be. Here's a cookie if anyone managed to read through all this. LOL
st50
# st50 2012-11-06 11:58
Forgiven? Not a problem. Forgiven is not quite forgotten.
Loved as a brother? Sure. No doubt about it.
Loyalty? Yup. That's just Dean.
Back to best buds? Not so much. I'd like to see them get there, but I don't think they should be there, yet.
st50
# st50 2012-11-06 11:59
Oh, and that probably goes equally between the three of them... Sam, Dean and Cas.
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-06 17:13
Hey, that's a good point, Castiel fixed the 25% that Death couldn't promise Sam (Will it work? Call it 75%). So in a way Castiel cured Sam instead of patching him up, and he also somehow got him out of Hell though I am a little confused as to how he did that on his own - unless Crowley helped him?
From that point of view you could see why Sam would be able to forgive Cas.

When it comes to Sam, well, everyone in his life is between 5 and 1000 years older than him and EVERYONE manipulated him his entire life (and that totally includes Dean - look I am talking about Dean in this post! Honest!). The supernatural universe never forgave him even though it was DEAN who allowed the apocalypse to start not Sam (if it was the fault of either of them - which I say it wasn't, they were both pawns) and I say fair play to Sam for forgiving himself and never mind what the fans say! (Ok that is the only time I am going to do that rant :D)
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-07 11:31
Quote:
Castiel is NOT the reason Sam has his problem in the first place.
I respectfully disagreeQuote:
if Castiel has refused the open that panic room door that the WHOLE APOCALYPSE would have been COMPLETELY AVERTED?
No ,I don't know about others but i would definetly have not blamed Cas.Quote:
Castiel letting Sam out of the panic room and lay the whole apocalypse at his feet instead of Sam taking personal responsibility for his actions
No we only blame Castiel for the part he played and we ccomplain that part has been swept under the rugQuote:
Sam's wall was going to fall anyway.
Apocalypse would start anyway (there were atleast 606 more seals to break so why blame sam at all.Quote:
I guess some fans wanted Dean and Sam to find out and be angry at Castiel hate him for not being strong enough to resist brainwashing and torture?
No the problem was cas's persistant stance of sam being an abomination as if he did not play a part and to be clear i am stressing it was a part only.Quote:
An eternity of suffering and torment until Castiel found a way to retrieve his body.
so that Sam had to remember not only hell memories but also his soulless memories.Quote:
The wall, once again only a stop-gap measure, only served to delay the inevitable. Lucifer's tortures are the consequences of Sam's actions for trusting Ruby and unleashing Lucifer, and Sam in the beginning of 7.17 had accepted this. He didn't blame Castiel because he knew he would inevitably be in this situation even if Castiel hadn't broken his wall. He was resigned and accepted his fate as his penance just as he was resigned and accepted it in season 5 before he jumped in.
No lucifer's torture were the result of Sam jumping into the cage whatever came after that is on Cas.Quote:
So to reiterate, YES it was WRONG of Castiel to hurt Sam. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, but is it truly something so utterly beyond forgiveness when you take in account the full situation? I don't think what happens here is fully comparable to a real world scenario of someone physically and mentally abusing a family member as Castiel is NOT the one responsible for Sam's trauma.
How much ever you put capslock Cas is responsible for sam's trauma.Quote:
The closest real world equivalent I can think of for this situation would be if Person A stole Person B's psychiatric drugs that causes the person to have a mental breakdown due to their already existing mental illness,
and that is right howQuote:
Person A shows up again later and cures Person B from the mental illness so they no longer have to take drugs to keep it under control. They are cured from the condition *completely*.
again that diminishes the further trauma caused by the disappearance of medication as the person who took the medication from the person earlier was capable of curing him before too as he was new and improved before.Quote:
In that situation should the person B, and person B's family never forgive Person A? Should they reject Person A forever even if Person A is totally and completely repentant and Person A has saved their lives in the past and done many other things for them in the past? I don't know. I guess some do believe that though I honestly don't.
I don't know about personB's family but person b if he was me would not forgive him so easily as sam forgave him all these things take time.Quote:
and Castiel rightfully suffered it, but I guess some feel his suffering wasn't enough, and that he should never be forgiven.
No his suffering is not enough and he should be forgiven but trusted eventually .Trust he should gain and i am talking more importantly trust of person B.Quote:
One person didn't seem to understand Alfie saying Castiel has "too much heart".
sorry,Alfie is not a reliable judge .Just because he said so it does not become gospel truth.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-07 11:53
Quote:
I feel like some fans are never going to forgive Sam
Have you forgiven sam?I have formed an impression about the answer to this question but i don't want to put words in your mouth so would be glad if you would answer the question.Thanks for the cookie.
CJ
# CJ 2012-11-06 12:36
** REQUESTED TOPIC: If Dean was always very protective of Sam, how was he fine with Sam hunting?

Well it beats leaving him unguarded somewhere is it not (am not implying Sam needed someone to take care of him just that it would be how Dean thought). Dean was protective and knew that Sam would always be in danger (thanks to YED, demon blood etc etc). So it may make more sense to keep him in his line of vision than to let him go somewhere alone. This was particularly valid for Dean's motivations till season 5. Cos after that he acknowledged that Sam's all grown up and capable of taking care of himself. In fact I dont think Dean has been in real over protective, big brother mode for sometime now.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-07 13:48
In seasons one, two and three Dean didn't know about the demon blood or that the YED had targeted Sam and not Mary all those years ago. JOHN may have known, but if he decided that there was no need to tell Sam that he didn't want Sam to go to college because Sam was the target of a demon who wanted to turn him into Lucifer's vessel, because hey! why would that be of any concern to Sam. But until the end of season 2 there wasn't a lot to make Dean think that Sam needed protection and after season 2 they thought everything was all over because Azazel was dead and whatever plans he had for Sam died with him. I do agree that Dean is no longer in protective brother mode and since the writers have seemingly decided that Sam is all fine and dandy on the mental health front there is no need for Dean to be protective any more. Even if Sam weren't it is a healthy thing if Dean decides to put his own needs above John's protect Sammy edict.

That said, Dean was show as being protective during the early seasons and still wanted Sam to hunt regardless of the dangers. As I said earlier, that makes Dean human. He wanted to hunt with Sam and when John went missing, he went to Sam and brought him back in. Jess dying kept Sam in, but Dean being human, not wanting to do it alone was why DEAN wanted Sam to hunt. Nothing wrong with that. We don't have to see Dean as being utterly selfless. He's a good guy who is allowed to want things to be the way he wants them.
MaryAddy
# MaryAddy 2012-11-06 13:05
All this "should Cas be forgiven?" stuff makes me sad.
Forgiveness is a major theme on this show. Every single character on this show has done heinous deeds, and if they weren't forgiven and eventually allowed to move past it, everyone would have stopped talking to each other seasons ago. I forgave Sam for Lilith way before Swan Song, and it made me sad that people only felt he was 'exonerated' after going to Hell. That's not forgiveness. That's enacting bloodthirsty revenge on a character.
Forgiveness is a gift for the forgiven as much as the forgiven, otherwise the forgiver is left carrying around all these toxic festering resentments, which I think we can all agree Dean does not need. Whenever a character has refused to let the past go, we're left with nothing but heartache.
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-06 17:05
You know, I know it isn't canon in the show but 'Purgatory' is the place where sins are purged - in other words when your sins are gone you get to move on to the next life (I believe that hell is no longer on the table at that stage) so even looking at it from the SPN world view, once you get out of purgtory your sins are forgiven. I could see them going that way with Castiel because it appears there is a new storyline for him down the road.
Dean forgives (kinda) but he doesn't forget. At some point I think the show will call him out on that because until he realizes that there is more to life than being a (black and white) soldier he will never be able to move on. He had been getting better but the grey made him depressed so he has regressed a lot.
I think that there is something in the Purgatory storyline that we don't know about yet that will force him to see that he is not as righteous as he thinks he is.
But somehow I don't think that it is that he deliberately left Castiel behind - unless it was with Cas's full agreement / encouragement (or he truly believes Cas betrayed him for some reason) - it doesn't really match with his attitude since he got back.
ruby81
# ruby81 2012-11-12 22:14
so, I'm not cool with the idea that sam did't look for dean, but I have one question, why would dean be so mad that sam did not look for him and was with amelia while he was in purgatory, when he, while he thought sam was in the cage, (regardles of where he really was) he also stopped hunting and went and play house with lisa and ben. And I don´t care that sam told him not to look for him, after all he is his brother and he knew sam was in hell, and when he went to purgatory, he just desapeard, sam didn't know where he was or what happen to him.
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-13 02:41
Quote:
while he thought sam was in the cage, (regardles of where he really was) he also stopped hunting and went and play house with lisa and ben.
I think ruby81 and I try to make it compact:

Dean, when Sam was in the Cage :
-Stop hunting
-Playing house with Lisa and Ben
-Drink a lot and miserable
-Hitting books and lore to find away to get Sam out

Sam, when Dean was in purgatory:
-Stop hunting
-Playing house with Amelia and Riot
-Drinking (probably not as much as Dean, but who knows)
-being miserable (as he said that his world imploded and raining down on him and he ran)

That's all. The only difference is when Dean still hitting the books and doing research as he said in 'Exile' that he had collected hundreds of books to get Sam out.
Sam: I told you not to.
Dean: yeah, so sue me!

Sam = No fact yet stated in the show, no scene, no dialogue that show Sam trying to read any books, or contacting anyone, physic or anyone, Missouri maybe to find out about Dean's where about.
He only said to the Vet that "My world imploded and raining down on me and I ran" .

there's no sentence that said "I tried to look for him" or "No matter how many books I read and seance that I performed, I couldn't find Dean."

As long as there is no sentence like that or similar like that, I still consider Sam Not Looking for Dean out of his own Choice. Thus, I can understand Dean's anger.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-13 09:19
Dean's anger makes complete sense. Sam and Dean only have each other. They don't have anyone else so if Dean needs help, Sam is the only person who can help him. Sam's the only one who can have Dean's back. He's the only person who would know Dean had disappeared. That's why Carver's "new rule" btw them makes no sense. Why would they ever agree to not search for the other if one mysteriously disappeared? So, under Carver's rule, Dean should have moved on with his life back in S2 when Sam disappeared from that diner!

Here, Dean assumed that his brother was looking for him or had investigated his disappearance but that did not happen. Sam didn't even try to look for Dean. We're being told that Sam accepted Dean's disappearance as death without investigating it. That's what Dean (and many others) can't accept.

I'm not sure how Dean will move past what happened, or rather what didn't happen. This situation only renewed all of Dean's fears about Sam and how important he is to Sam. I completely understand why Dean's faith and trust in Sam has been shaken and why he presently sees Benny as a better "brother" than Sam. It doesn't help that Sam hasn't really given a good reason why he didn't search for Dean. Sam has not been portrayed in a very sympathetic light. All Dean knows is that Sam got a GF. I'm not sure why that prevented Sam from searching though.
emmau
# emmau 2012-11-12 22:59
I think the reason Dean is so angry is because it's canon that when he thought Sam was in the cave, he was still looking for a way to get Sam out. So he did try normal because that's what Sam wanted him to do, but at the same time hedidn't give up on Sam, even though he couldn't have believed there was any realistic chance he'd get Sam out.
emmau
# emmau 2012-11-12 23:00
In the cage. My apologies.
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-13 04:47
It would be a great twist if they write Dean is actually topside much longer and his time in Purgatory is actually much shorter than a year earth time. And Dean's perspective about it all is skewed. I still believe there's higher power at play here and it's more than just Crowley.

And Sam's being not very surprised by Dean's return because he already with Dean much earlier than Dean seems to remember. Also Dean's memory about what happened to him in Purgatory is not 100 % true.

JC said that in purgatory time runs differently and it's all about perspective.
Katja
# Katja 2012-12-04 22:05
Can I just say that Dean is essentially (finally) experiencing some CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT?
He isn't who he's always been. He's changing. He's becoming a more rounded person. He's had to learn to live without Sammy, had to learn to let others in, and to love them as much (or close to that) as he love his brother. Example: Castiel.
Enough said.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-04 22:43
Hi Katja, nice take on Dean this season. Even though some feel those relationships are more important to Dean than his relationship with Sam, I think Sam will always be the most important person in Dean's world. No matter what he says in hurt and anger. After last year when Dean was so depressed it is great to see him care about work and other people again.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-12-05 03:21
I have zero problem with Dean caring about others he has done it in the past . But when he starts declaring somebody else is a better brother ever and he meant it that was made clear then naturally people will start questioning his relationship with Sam .

Dean now has two other brother type relationships now in his life at present time . Sam has nothing his relationship with Amelia gone by the wayside and a brother who doesnt think very much of him and now we will have the brothers spitting and growling at each other like a couple of alley cats .

And I stilll cant see why we needed any problems between the brothers this season as they were good with each other at the end of season 7.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-05 07:30
Hi Sharon, We will never see eye to eye on how Dean feels about Sam. It is ok to question what is going on with them. I can't agree that Dean doesn't feel very much for his brother. Or that Dean REALLY feels that anyone is a better brother. If he didn't love his brother he wouldn't have been so hurt and pissy about the not- looking thing. It would be nice to say something even semi-positive about Dean without all that stuff being brought up every time. Thats all.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-05 07:39
adding: Dean has shown in a million ways since the series began how much he loves his brother. No matter how much they growl at each other!!
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-05 08:30
Quote:
I have zero problem with Dean caring about others he has done it in the past . But when he starts declaring somebody else is a better brother ever and he meant it that was made clear then naturally people will start questioning his relationship with Sam .

Dean now has two other brother type relationships now in his life at present time . Sam has nothing his relationship with Amelia gone by the wayside and a brother who doesnt think very much of him and now we will have the brothers spitting and growling at each other like a couple of alley cats .

And I stilll cant see why we needed any problems between the brothers this season as they were good with each other at the end of season 7.
The reason, that Dean even can SAY, that someone else is a better brother than Sam, only shows how absolutely secure he is of Sam AS his brother.
Yes, Benny has been a better brother... in the only way, Dean has really known him: in Fight situations.

Dean and Benny have never had truly conflicting goals, their friendship has not yet been tested.

Sam and Dean's? About a million times and in the end, the only thing that stands IS Sam and Dean.

Dean wouldn´t forget how to live, if Benny died. Hell, he didn´t even, when Bobby died.
Sam though?
That´s on a whole other level.

That´s the core, that defines, who both of them are.
No matter, how it may look like on the surface, or perhaps a little closer to the heart.
They may hate each others guts, now and then...but that core of "I know you are my brother, and no matter what, if push comes to shove, I will be there"
mer
# mer 2012-12-05 08:37
You must know that the actual line was (and I am paraphrasing here) "Benny's been a better brother to me THIS PAST YEAR to me than you"
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-05 08:51
Right... Benny hasn´t had the chance to screw up yet.

ANd whereas Dean is protecting Sammy, when something goes horribly wrong (Demon possession? Demon BLOOD?), he would kill Benny, should he start to kill again.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-05 09:29
The actual line was "Benny's been a better brother to me THIS PAST YEAR to me than you EVER were,". Dean wasn't just talking about the year in Purgatory, he was talking about Sam's whole life.
E
# E 2012-12-05 09:47
To be accurate the line was "Benny's been more of a brother to me in the past year than you've EVER been" with a strong emphasis on the word "ever" in the line reading. Although Dean has been compromised by the Civil War ghost, he is clearly making a comparison between his relationship of one year with Benny and his and Sam's entire relationship and it's also clear that he finds Sam lacking in the comparison. True, Benny hasn't had a chance to screw up yet, and Dean is 'under the influence', but that comment had to have hurt Sam, as well as the knowledge that Dean hasn't really forgiven him for any of his mistakes even though Sam jumped into the pit to atone for them, AND Dean gave blanket forgiveness in season 6. It's not really fair of Dean to compare a lifetime of being Sam's brother, with all it's conflicts and disagreements, to his relationship with Benny, which is only 1 year old and was forged in the rarefied atmosphere of purgatory. Also, Dean was Benny's ticket out of purgatory, how meaningful and honest could that relationship actually be?
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-05 09:59
To put myself on Dean´s side here:
The spectre trotted out all past betryals, yes.

But that, in comparison, also included a husband of 37 years taking another woman to prom night 37 years ago.

And how logical that whole tirade was, can best be seen, from the part of "not telling me, you lost your soul and running around with Samuel for a whole year..."

That was not even SAM!

Still, it hurt Sam, and hurt him bad.
But alot of it was the Spectre latching onto any possible betrayal and not Dean.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-12-05 10:04
Quote:
To put myself on Dean´s side here:
The spectre trotted out all past betryals, yes.

But that, in comparison, also included a husband of 37 years taking another woman to prom night 37 years ago.

And how logical that whole tirade was, can best be seen, from the part of "not telling me, you lost your soul and running around with Samuel for a whole year..."

That was not even SAM!

Still, it hurt Sam, and hurt him bad.
But alot of it was the Spectre latching onto any possible betrayal and not Dean.
If the feeling wasnt there the spectre wouldnt of been able to latch onto anything and like Sam said 'we both know you meant it'.
Without doubt the Spectre muddied the waters but the brothers relationship is about has secure at the moment as two men in a rowing boat in the middle of the Atlantic with a hole in it.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-05 10:46
Yes...BUT (you knew, there was a but, didn´t you? ;)

I can only pull the case of the way, who plit her husband skull with a car, again: the spectre latches onto feelings of betrayal, but it doesn´t say, how much of a feeling there has to be, or if all of the feeling has to be directed DIRECTLY at the individual in question.

The "Not looking" thing is fresh and raw....
And that was surely the thing, the spectre recognized and used.
Everything else might just have been tiny pangs of "well shit, it still hurts a little"
And it hurts a little, in connection with Sam, even IF Sam wasn´t the one, doing the betraying.

Soulless Sam? Uhm... that one was actually on Castiel

Running around with Samuel and doing all kinds of crazy?
Samuel, definately Samuel

Demon blood? Hrm... not entirely Sam´s fault... though he should have shown better judgement, yes. But he jumped in the pit for it and.. honestly Dean wanted to say yes to Michael, no matter, what Sam or anybody else said and how much they begged him, not to do it.
Oh and... who was the one starting the apocalypse?

Dean would never have said all that. And I´m pretty sure, he doesn´t hold most of it against Sam.... somehow I got the feeling, alot of it, is things Dean resents himself for.

Ever since you got into my car....
Dean is the one, keeping Sam from a life without hunting.
And he knows it.
He knows, he can´t live without Sam. And now Sam has shown, at least from Dean´s point of view, that he actually, well yes, can live without Dean.
(how much of that is actually true, is on another page altogether)

But still, he climbs into that car with him and goes back to that crazy life, that has cost him everything and most likely will cost him more... AGAIN?
And why? Because Dean asked him to.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-05 11:44
Quote:
honestly Dean wanted to say yes to Michael, no matter, what Sam or anybody else said and how much they begged him, not to do it.
and?Quote:
I can only pull the case of the way, who plit her husband skull with a car
and kept her husband in tight leash after all those years
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-05 09:42
Quote:
have zero problem with Dean caring about others he has done it in the past . But when he starts declaring somebody else is a better brother ever and he meant it that was made clear then naturally people will start questioning his relationship with Sam . Dean now has two other brother type relationships now in his life at present time . Sam has nothing his relationship with Amelia gone by the wayside and a brother who doesnt think very much of him and now we will have the brothers spitting and growling at each other like a couple of alley cats . And I stilll cant see why we needed any problems between the brothers this season as they were good with each other at the end of season 7.
I agree.You see Dean forgiving and forgetting Sam's mistakes ,in dreams.I remember someone saying Sam is the loneliest character on TV .
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-10 23:58
"But still [Sam], climbs into that car with him and goes back to that crazy life, that has cost him everything and most likely will cost him more... AGAIN?
And why? Because Dean asked him to."

AWW Fluffy2107 that just breaks my heart and its so true. How anyone can have a poor opinion of Sam is beyond me. One of the saddest moments between the brothers for me is when they are having a beer at the end of CYHIYB (the fairies) and they talk about getting Sam's soul back. When Dean asks Sam "Do you want your soul back Sam?" and Sam replies "of course" but the look on Sam's face as he stares into the distance is one of THE saddest moments in Supernatural for me. He has tried and tried to be a good brother and takes on Dean's neediness as tho it is his doing. It always feels to me that the writers haven't quite 'got' Sam, and so there always seems to be essential dialogue missing. But that moment when Sam looks into the distance is utterly heartbreaking, Jared just knocks it out of the park.