Largest Review/Discussion Fansite for Supernatural and SPNFamily Shows! Plot/Character Analysis, Spoilers, Games, News, Gallery, Interviews, Fun!


Welcome to our newest experiment, the Let's Discuss threads!  The idea is to focus the discussions and topics out there and let burning subjects that are on people's minds to have their own dedicated place.  

I've been reading all of the comments out there.  There are some very frustrated Sam fans out there.  As someone who's been an avid analyzer of the younger Winchester, there's still so much about Sam we don't understand or know.  I've made it known I haven't been happy with Sam's character development in season seven (or Dean's either), but season eight doesn't seem to be revealing much either.  Yet anyway.  One long debate over the last several seasons is whether Sam is truly mysterious, or if his character is suffering from some serious writer's neglect.  Or perhaps in between.  
Here's just a few questions about Sam raised in season eight so far that are up for discussion:   

- Many out there still can't believe that Sam wouldn't look for Dean and quit hunting.  Since that seems to be the creative choice, do you think Sam has a good reason?  Could there ever be an acceptable explanation for his actions?
- What do you think of Amelia?  How do you think his relationship with her soured?  
- Sam wants a life that's not by his brother's side.  What do you think will have to happen for him to change his mind?  
- Is Dean's relationship with Benny pushing out Sam?  Will Sam force Dean to choose?  
- Is Sam depressed, or still unstable mentally?  Did his year away from Dean do more harm than good?
- Are you happy or unhappy with Sam's character development so far?  Or is there no character development?

Introduce your own questions too.  Anything regarding Sam's character development is fair game.  

In your comments, please be aware of our rules.  Otherwise, this is a free form discussion where all comments are welcome.  If there are other topics that you'd like to see in "Let's Discuss," send your suggestion through the "Contact Us" section.  

http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/news/64-rules/14338-we-are-a-happy-site-but-there-are-rules.html



Comments  

Melanie
# Melanie 2012-11-04 22:14
So far, I just don't find it credible that Sam would not look for Dean. I don't buy the whole 'had no support, didn't know what to do' line and I really hope that there's more to it than that.
So far I dislike Amelia and what's worse, feel like every Sam flashback scene grinds the narrative to a halt. So far, what have we learned that has ANY relevance to the present day story? Not much. As an exploration of Sam's character -- so far its pretty dull.
We did learn that he can fix stuff -- like motors --which is kinda cool except when did that happen? In Fresh Blood Sam barely knew how to hold a wrench. Maybe he learned it while he was not!sleeping as Robo!Sam?
Sam is my favorite character. Jared is acting the heck out of what he's been given and apparently he likes the direction -- but so far to me, its not very compelling drama.

P.S. I love Sam's hair.
P.P.S. Sam's reaction to Benny has promise - he was pretty pissed off --which compared to how --muted he's been -- is the most interesting thing that's happened. I wasn't sure he was caring enough to get mad at Dean. I kinda hope he's not all ok mentally. Its not realistic to think he could go through everything and NOT be affected.

Alice -- what about spoilers? Are they allowed in the 'Let's Discuss' threads?
elle
# elle 2012-11-04 22:18
- Many out there still can't believe that Sam wouldn't look for Dean and quit hunting. Since that seems to be the creative choice, do you think Sam has a good reason? Could there ever be an acceptable explanation for his actions?

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – I think both brothers learned their lesson when it comes to making deals, digging each other out of where dimensions, etc. So with that in mind it doesn’t come as a complete and total shock to me that Sam didn’t look for Dean. Having said that, I don’t know if he literally walked away from the purgatory sucking-in site going “yup, not looking for Dean at all” because I find that a tad more difficult to swallow. I do hope we get to see the immediate aftermath of the season seven finale at some point, as I’m certain Sam had some thought process and reasoning that made sense to him for not trying to dig Dean out. Right now though, I’m okay with where we are and how the season is unfolding. It feels a great deal stronger than season seven with more solid and considered plot threads. I guess we can only wait and see at this point.

- What do you think of Amelia? How do you think his relationship with her soured?


At this point, I very much dislike Amelia, particularly after “Blood Brothers.” Pardon my language, but she seems like a bitch to me and far too uppity. No idea on the when or how of their relationship disintegrating though.

- Sam wants a life that's not by his brother's side. What do you think will have to happen for him to change his mind?
To me, this isn’t exactly a brand new desire for Sam. It’s kind of what he wanted/was looking for when he left for Stanford. I don’t believe that because he doesn’t want to hunt means he and Dean can’t still be close/in touch if Sam becomes Mr. White Picket Fence and Dean and the Impala tour the country demon hunting. Would it be sad that they are apart? Yes, I think so. But at the same time some could argue (and I’m not saying I do) that they have an almost unhealthy obsession to be side by side, or they did, and it’s put them and the world at risk more than once. I love Sam and Dean and I love their brotherly bond, but I believe it’s possible for them to allow room for a different type of life too if that’s what they really want.

- Is Dean's relationship with Benny pushing out Sam? Will Sam force Dean to choose?

I don’t believe either of these things will happen, partly because we already saw that happen with Ruby to some degree. I do believe Sam and Dean will have one or more battles about Benny, at least at the beginning.

- Is Sam depressed, or still unstable mentally? Did his year away from Dean do more harm than good?
I don’t think so – he just knows what he wants and is tired of playing the sacrifice game, which is understandable after a lifetime of it and an apocalypse, trip to Hell and couple deaths.
- Are you happy or unhappy with Sam's character development so far? Or is there no character development?
I’m okay with it at this point. I go into this in my Blood Brothers review more, but I feel like he’s demonstrating how he’s healed over the last year.
E
# E 2012-11-06 07:06
Hi Elle,
I like your take on the Sam story, and I wish more people were willing to give Sam some of the same credit that you do. My major concern is that Dean is clearly unhappy about Sam's decision not to look for him. Both brother's may have learned their lesson about making deals, but Dean isn't happy despite what he knows. And when Dean isn't happy about something especially when it concerns a conflict with Sam, a large part of the fandom jumps on that bandwagon. So while Sam not looking for Dean may represent a more mature attitude and indicate that he's learned a hard lesson, Dean's anger over the situation means that the fandom at large flames Sam once again.
emmau
# emmau 2012-11-06 07:28
Let's be fair. I think fandom is always going to be down on Sam or Dean taking an action that doesn't look as caring as fandom thinks they should be. Look at 7.17--Dean is still catching flack for not showing enough emotion while saving Sam's life. Just think what fandom would have said if Dean had accepted Sam's fatalistic attitude and done the mature thing by honoring his wishes and allowing him to die. I doubt fandom would have been any more understanding. Fandom may say they want the boys to mature, but they don't want that maturity to really manifest as a sign of the brothers not needing/wanting to be around each other.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-11 15:28
Quote:
Let's be fair.... Fandom may say they want the boys to mature, but they don't want that maturity to really manifest as a sign of the brothers not needing/wanting to be around each other.
Truth.
Darya
# Darya 2012-11-04 22:33
Love this idea of a Let's Discuss page! I'm one of those "happy fans" who's always "Wait and Watch," and I love this site, but I've been really anxious about reading the comments. After every episode airs, I come and peep at the reviews and then mostly stay quiet.
Here's my thoughts:
- Many out there still can't believe that Sam wouldn't look for Dean and quit hunting. Since that seems to be the creative choice, do you think Sam has a good reason? Could there ever be an acceptable explanation for his actions?

As a writer, I sometimes have to choose hard directions for my characters to go. It pisses off some people and it's a huge pain to write, but there's always a reason. To me it completely stands against logic that Sam would have no reason to do what he's done.

I can understand why he would want to quit hunting. He's reeling from the Hell thing (probably, it was so understated I hardly know what to think of that), hunting has taken every single friend of his (how many times this season has he said "all my/your/our friends are dead"?) and his brother, he has no idea Dean could end up in Purgatory (really, would we have guessed if we weren't told?) and even if he did, he wouldn't have a way of pulling him out without taking half the world down with him. (a choice he really shouldn't be happy about, considering he's managed to do that once already).

So I can understand about Dean.

I'd also like to point out that researching the weapon they used is going to be really hard. They got that off a tablet that was underground for God knows how many centuries. Maybe it has never surfaced once in all of mankind's existence.

But Kevin Tran is another question, altogether. Why would Sam abandon Kevin? Especially when Kevin is the only person who would be able to help Sam even if he could somehow find information regarding God weapons, which will in turn lead him to discover what happened to Dean?

I'll need an acceptable answer for that, because that will in turn address my worry about him not looking for Dean.

My current theory is that the writers are writing him this way on purpose, not due to neglect, because the issue that he didn't look for Dean KEEPS popping up, it isn't completely blindsided like last year's hallucinations. If it were neglect, I think they'd have left it alone after the premiere. That it keeps popping up is a continual reminder for the fans, too, that this is a serious wedge between the brothers that will need to be addressed soon.

- What do you think of Amelia? How do you think his relationship with her soured?

I disliked Amelia in ep 1, wondered about her in ep 3, and started to really like her in ep 5. She was initially guarded against him, and that's actually quite smart in my opinion, considering he could seem really edgy to an outsider. Her annoyance at him in ep 1 might have been a little over the top, but then, he was a giant guy who hit a poor dog and was yelling at her nurse.
That Amelia parallels Sam's situation in that they both don't know where to go, that both are uprooted, is a good base to build their relationship upon. People flock to people who have gone through similar experiences.
I loved the post- "Don't bother the angry lady" conversation in Blood Brother. Amelia has a dry, sarcastic sense of humor (yes, humor, not insult- IMHO) and doesn't seem too much of a cardboard cut-out love interest. She has her own nuances and subtlety. I definitely like her better than Lisa.

Considering the fact that Sam was checking out her credit card statements (and driver's licence, and medical school transcripts) it's possible to think that he was probably a little OCD about her. He would be, after Dean, Bobby and Cas all disappeared in a span of 24 hours and left him alone. It makes sense that he wouldn't want to lose her, and maybe that was a problem for her? He did panic in the birthday cake scene, too. In that case, she could have told him to leave. Or, Sam is afraid of doing emotional ties after what happened to Dean (which could also explain his current detachment-then -panic mode) and could have left her once he realized he didn't want to risk losing her and hence what's left of his sanity.

Jared said this issue "begs questions" so I'm hopeful. And for some reason, really digging his flashbacks.

- Sam wants a life that's not by his brother's side. What do you think will have to happen for him to change his mind?

Healthily (for me and for Sam), and operating on the logic that Sam just doesn't want to lose Dean again and is hence being emotionally distant, I would love for him to realize that Dean is alive and here and not going anywhere. I don't believe the "you'll be happier without me" line at all, because it contradicts the panicky Sam we saw in Blood Brother. What will he do, live a normal life and then go crazy every time Dean doesn't pick up his phone?

Unhealthily, someone will have to die. Probably Amelia. And then we'll be down the revenge path again, which I do not want to take. Or, something (like Benny) will have to make him think that Dean's judgments is seriously questionable and decide to tag along to be his voice of conscious.

- Is Dean's relationship with Benny pushing out Sam? Will Sam force Dean to choose?

I don't think Dean's relationship with Benny is pushing out Sam. Right now, it could appear that way because both boys are keeping too many secrets, but once it's all out on the table, (if it's ever all out on the table), then Benny will be Benny and Sam will be Sam. Dean's relationship with Benny was born out of necessity. Right now, Dean must be warm towards Benny considering he's annoyed at how Sam deserted him, but that could change.

As for Sam, I don't also think he'll oppose Benny. He'll question Dean for keeping him secret and evaluate his judgments and will probably come to the conclusion that he'll remain wary of Benny without bitching about it. That's how Sam is around sympathetic monsters. He's not going to be friends with the vampire, but I think he'll tolerate.

- Is Sam depressed, or still unstable mentally? Did his year away from Dean do more harm than good?

I do believe he's unstable. The panic attacks, the strange stalking, the disinterest in hunting is all pointing to it. Credit card trails could give information on what Amelia is doing and where she's going, but why license? Why medical school transcripts? Seems a little strange. He has a once-burned, twice-shy vibe this season.

- Are you happy or unhappy with Sam's character development so far? Or is there no character development?

I think there definitely is a level of character development. We just don't have the whole truths yet. He seems a little more clear-headed, but also a bit emotionally rocky. As for happy or unhappy, I think I'll have a better answer a few more episodes into the season.
E
# E 2012-11-05 08:55
Quote: "My current theory is that the writers are writing him this way on purpose, not due to neglect, because the issue that he didn't look for Dean KEEPS popping up, it isn't completely blindsided like last year's hallucinations. If it were neglect, I think they'd have left it alone after the premiere. That it keeps popping up is a continual reminder for the fans, too, that this is a serious wedge between the brothers that will need to be addressed soon."

Hi Darya,
Really great post, and I like particularly the quote I have posted above. If the fact that Sam didn't look for Dean was supposed to be some kind of character re-set and not ultimately an important plot point, then the writers shouldn't keep bringing it up. But they do, and I think it's deliberate. For three episodes in row now, Dean has mentioned Sam not looking for him, and for three episodes Sam has not challenged Dean on his comments. Since when has Sam ever backed down from anyone? But each time, you see him shutting down and deliberately not engaging on that topic. I find that very interesting. If he weren't hiding something that he doesn't want Dean to know about his "not looking" then he would at the very least try and explain his point of view better or defend himself more as he has always done in the past. But he doesn't, he has let it go each time. In this last exchange in Blood Brothers, we see that Sam really wants to argue even more with Dean about him taking off for a day, until Dean says "You took a whole, year, I just want a day" and Sam clamps right down and stops arguing. There is something more to Sam's year than simply not looking... and it will be revealed eventually.
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-11-05 09:06
This isn't strictly true, however. Only in 8.1 did Dean challenge Sam specifically on not looking for him. Since then what he has addressed is Sam not hunting for a year, leaving people to die, etc. Now, I think it is a very plausible read that Dean is deflecting from the point that really hurts him (the idea that Sam made no effort to find him) to a point he finds easier to discuss, and it does seem that the real problem will reemerge in 8.6. But the explicit focus has been on the Sam not hunting thing, not the Sam not investigating Dean's disappearance thing.
E
# E 2012-11-06 07:19
To me the 'not hunting' idea, the 'you're rusty' comments are synonymous with 'not looking.' They are variations on a theme and a way for Dean to address the subject that bothers him most without actually addressing the subject that bothers him the most. Dean can be passive, aggressive, and that's how I take all of these digs he's taking at Sam. It's going to blow up in episode 6, but I don't think it will be in any way resolved. I am still convinced that Sam is hiding something and it will come to light sooner or later.

And can I just say, on a completely different note, that I really appreciate the risk Jared is willing to take with his character? Comments he's made in interviews and at his ChiCon meet and great indicated that he was nervous about fan reaction, but he is still willing to let the writers mess with his character in these risky ways. I just hope that this time it will pay off for him.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-06 09:13
Jared has always seemed willing to take chances with Sam. I'm sure Jensen would as well if he had been given more opportunity. I do think it was a shame that Jensen never got to play Michael. That was a missed opportunity.
E
# E 2012-11-06 22:21
You're right. Jensen has had very little opportunity to get out of Dean's skin. He had that time he was Skin Walker Dean, and Dream Demon Dean and LeviaDean, but these were all very short lived blips of things outside of the Dean we know barely lasting a few minutes, not even an entire episode. Sam has morphed so many times that we can actually mark the changes in his character by seasons; Naive College Sam, Psychic Kids Sam, Save Dean Sam, Demon Blood Sam, Repentant Sam, Soulless Sam, Hell Wall Sam... even though some of these story lines had less than satisfactory endings Jared has had so many wonderful opportunities to stretch his abilities, it would be nice to see Jensen get to play a little more outside his character from time to time too.
st50
# st50 2012-11-04 23:10
Commenting here mainly so I get the alerts and can follow the discussion.
I've said many times (Sorry for the repetition) that I don't really like the idea of Sam not trying to do anything to look for Dean and Kevin, and I will believe that he only when it is verbally acknowledged by Sam himself. He's hinted that's the case, but not actually admited it. Yet.
Yes, I think Sam is having some real issues. Mental, emotional, something. He's jumpy, panicky, overly reserved at times.... Not really sure where this is leading, though, and I'm really hoping it leads somewhere satisfying this season. (and not dropped!!)
Amelia doesn't bug me, but I don't see her as the love of Sams life, yet. More as someone who is there for him. I think it was sweetondean who discussed his fear of being alone, and at the moment, I think this is more the basis of their relationship than anything else.
I don't think Benny's going to take Sam's place, either - in the Impala, on hunts, or as Deans brother.... I really don't know how far his story will go. I think the writers envision him as another fan-favourite recurring character similar to Cas, but I think that will depend on how the fandom reacts as the season unfolds.
Just my 2 cents (and more than I had meant to say).
Laf
# Laf 2012-11-04 23:42
They desperately need to work up Amelia's character to make me believe the Sam I know could love this boring angry woman.

It looks like the old Dean-heavy first season, with a Sam-heavy second is going to hold this year too, and that sucks, because Sam's characterizatio n is suffering so much, it may not recover in time. Sam's the human representative this time, the Everyman. But there is nothing lovable in his story at all so far, that makes the human world worth saving - least of all Amelia.

This in particular bugs me: the ugly contradiction of Sam telling Dean in "Heartache" that he wants out, and that Dean's at his best hunting alone. Then in "Blood Brother," Sam's outraged that Dean is hunting the vamps alone. Well, Sam, isn't that exactly what will happen when you leave Dean for Amelia? You are leaving Dean to hunt alone...

I am loving Dean's story so much. It's the first time in almost 2.5 years that they are really giving Jensen some meat to play. It's what keeps me coming back, frankly. It'll be enough to keep me as a fan, but I hoped for Sam&Dean.

Endgame is always Sam&Dean- and that hasn't happened in 3 years. I expected so much more of Carver, but at episode 5 I'm starting to doubt.
Melanie
# Melanie 2012-11-04 23:48
Quote:
They desperately need to work up Amelia's character to make me believe the Sam I know could love this boring angry woman.

.....

This in particular bugs me: the ugly contradiction of Sam telling Dean in "Heartache" that he wants out, and that Dean's at his best hunting alone. Then in "Blood Brother," Sam's outraged that Dean is hunting the vamps alone. Well, Sam, isn't that exactly what will happen when you leave Dean for Amelia? You are leaving Dean to hunt alone...
Yes. This. SO MUCH!
E
# E 2012-11-06 07:24
I still think that this is another example of Sam saying one thing but thinking another, and then revealing the truth of Sam's actual thinking through his actions rather than his words. I think that 'you'd be better off hunting alone' crap was just that 'crap.' Sam's true feelings came out when he freaked at the idea that Dean was in a vamps nest without him. I like this dichotomy; its certainly more real, in that people often say one thing and then do another leaving those around them to figure out what they really want. This is the kind of complexity that was really missing in season 7.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2012-11-04 23:51
I'm really upset with Sam's story. I hope there's a twist coming, but I fear it's simple neglect. Mr. Carver wanted to reset the characters, and Sam somehow went from "where's Dean" in ep. 7.23 to "Dean's dead" in 8.01 and gave him a normal life even if Sam said he wasn't normal at the beginning of season 7.

I don't understand any of it. Sam is so different this season! I want to know more, especially about the past year, yet we've seen very little. If there's a twist, the longer we wait, the less we will care. If it's all there is, why give Sam a human story and start from an unsympathetic beginning, especially something as OOC as not investigating what happened to Dean? Why not make Amelia likeable from the outset if the writers want us to care about her? I don't really have an opinion about her yet because we've seen so little of her, but most people don't like her and that's squarely on the writers, IMO.

I usually like conflict between the brothers, but the mystery surrounding Sam's actions and his lack of dialogue to express himself makes it an uneven fight. We're seeing everything from Dean's POV so far and both sides of the conflict aren't equally represented. And it all feels like manufactured angst to me, to be honest. If there's a twist, the bros are arguing over nothing and why wouldn't Sam tell Dean? And if Sam really didn't look for Dean, I don't believe that Sam would ever do that, so it's just OOC and I can't get into it.
novichevich
# novichevich 2012-11-06 00:18
i think you people don't take into account sam's past story. sam is a typical wounded hero who sacrificed himself to save the earth from apocalypse, and suffered horribly. when cas came and tries to heal him he said smth like "it's impossible. sam's soul is so torn and in pieces it is incurable." then, somehow, cas managed to glue those pieces together, but i think sam is still far from full recovery. like precious china that was broken and mended it may be still beautiful to look at, but it's better not to touch it, leave it alone. however, sam is the only one who could help/save dean, who's able to keep him human, especially now when dean in his current ruthless warrior mode needs smb to restrain him.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-11-05 00:02
1. Many out there still can't believe that Sam wouldn't look for Dean and quit hunting. Since that seems to be the creative choice, do you think Sam has a good reason? Could there ever be an acceptable explanation for his actions?

I think I could buy a full-on mental breakdown or a hopeless suicidal attempt that requires recovery. Sam has spent a lifetime losing all the most important people in his life ( and pretty much everyone else), but with the 2 notable exceptions, he always had Dean. Dean IMO is hands down, bar none, the most important person in his life by far. For all of Dean's talk about sticking together, he's done pretty well when they're apart. But both times Sam was forced to deal with functioning without Dean, he well--- he didn't do so well. In MS, he was one freakin' scary, hyper-OCD mess.

And when Dean went to hell, IMO he felt powerless watching him being ripped apart and probably the year prior to that. I think he decided that he was never going to be that powerless again and hooked up with Ruby who told him she could make sure he never did. So he went down a dark path, justifying it to himself by saying that he was doing it for the greater good.

Then he spent the year before Dean disappeared, fighting Hell images and Lucifer from 180 years in the cage. And had barely had any recovery time before his touchstone was ripped away. Plus as much as he said he didn't feel guilty about what he'd done before, I don't think that he ever really regained his self-worth. And he definitely didn't trust himself. As evidenced by him doing a 180 in The Mentalist and saying Dean was right (man it they could make that catastrof@#k having meaning I will bow down to them).

So once again he fails to protect Dean and he disappears, Sam's frantic and very quickly reverts to full-on panic. He has no one to call who he actually feels could help. His panic and history of poor decisions are combining to make him feel useless and worthless. He's afraid to make any decision for fear of making the wrong one. So it doesn't take long before he completely loses it. He has a complete mental breakdown and/or tries to kill himself. Stealing from the post yesterday, tries to runoff a bridge and ends up hitting a dog. Races to save it and runs into a vet clinic screaming for them to help the dog because he did this. Yeah, I could easily buy this.

Now this is where I have trouble. After taking the dog, he tells himself he'll stay in town long enough for the dog to recover. Find it a home and move on. BUT.... I guess he has a talk with Amelia, she reminds him of Dean in someways and things get better. She tells him her sob story and says she's learned that you have to let go of the pain and move on. (Not realizing that she talking to someone who might be able to save his loved one). I guess I can kind of see Sam listening to her week after week saying that someone who loved him would want him to move on and be happy. And Sam thinking more calmly now, wants to avoid the possibility of any collateral damage that could come if he tried to save him.

But I just don't know. It still seems un-Sam-like to not to start looking then. To at least try to figure out where he could possibly be leaving Dean. I'm having a hard time getting past that. If he said he'd looked but everything he found seemed to indicate Dean was dead (presumably in heaven) - I would be okay. The problem is why wouldn't he say that right away.

So they need to show me a lot and in DETAIL for me to fully buy an explanation like this.

But I'm still holding onto to hope that maybe there is a twist we don't know. That better explains his behavior. I don't have to buy everything they are selling to enjoying the show. Like with the Campbells, I just shrug it off. But this is fundamental to Sam's character and the show, so I NEED them to get this right.

2) What do you think of Amelia? How do you think his relationship with her soured?

I'm still on the fence about Amelia, I like the suggestion (sorry I can't remember whose) that she reminds Sam of Dean. But as for her actual personality, I'm just sort of there. I don't like her yet, but I don't hate her either. I'm still thinking there is something up with his memories of her. That picnic definitely looked dream-like. I don't know what caused them to separate. At this point, I have to admit I still don't care.

3) Sam wants a life that's not by his brother's side. What do you think will have to happen for him to change his mind?

I not sure Sam has figured out how this is going to work. He seemed awfully panicked by Dean hunting alone. So I don't know how he thinks leaving him is going to play out. I'm not sure Sam's thinking a whole hell of a lot right now. Other than he wants to escape before he loses Dean again. I think he will realize that he is more likely to lose Dean if he's not there to protect him. Despite his past (as he sees them) failures.

4) Is Dean's relationship with Benny pushing out Sam? Will Sam force Dean to choose?

I think the writers are setting up Benny as a faux-Sam just to mess with us. Even if they are so wrong headed as to believe that Sam wouldn't look for Dean (which I still don't really buy) there is no way they actual think they can replace Sam. I'm thinking that Sam might accept him for a while thinking he could do a better job than him at having Dean's back, since he was made unnecessary cleaning out the vamp nest. Until something eventually makes him realize otherwise.

5) Is Sam depressed, or still unstable mentally? Did his year away from Dean do more harm than good?

My first instinct his to say yes, yes and definitely more harm and despite the calm demeanor he's had at times I going to stick with my instinct. I think/hope an emotional outburst is in the works.

6) Are you happy or unhappy with Sam's character development so far? Or is there no character development?

That is an almost impossible question to answer at this point. Because for all the different analysis's, theories and ponderances, there is very little evidence to go on. We don't know which way they are taking the character. So I don't have clue on how to respond. Going strictly by what's on the screen so far, I'd probably say unhappy. BUT I really do think there is a BUNCH more they are not telling us.


Sorry for the book. It is the administrators fault for giving us free reign in this area.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-05 09:47
Quote:
And when Dean went to hell, IMO he felt powerless watching him being ripped apart and probably the year prior to that. I think he decided that he was never going to be that powerless again and hooked up with Ruby who told him she could make sure he never did. So he went down a dark path, justifying it to himself by saying that he was doing it for the greater good.
I think this is a good explanation of Sam's behavior in season 4. However, the writers never deigned to tell us this. They talked about pride and wanting to take Dean's rightful place in stopping Lilith. They had Chuck, who they later implied was God, telling Sam he was unsympathetic. GOD told Sam that being cursed by his mother, manipulated by demons and angels alike did not make Sam sympathetic. Dean, OTOH, got the totally sympathetic God loves YOU edit, mostly delivered by the angels, but still Dean got to say that God disapproved of Sam's choices. Once God has said you are wrong, wrong, wrong there is very little chance that the audience will see things differently without a lot of fan wanking, and I was fan wanking for most of season 4.

And that is why I am so upset by the way they are handling Sam this year. They have him doing something that would be healthy IRL, not obsessively search for Dean but that within the context of the show is a complete betrayal. The show has been about the brotherly bond and frankly Sam has often been portrayed as being deficient in that regard. Sam went to college, a really healthy decision to take care of himself, but even in season five Dean was shown as being hurt by that in DSOTM. Dean's hurt feelings are the main point, not that Sam wanted to be happy. Dean told Sam outright that Sam had no right to mourn John because he didn't love him enough while he was alive. Sam failed to save Dean, then allowed himself to recover with Ruby, the only person to seek him out while he was suicidal and allying with Ruby became a betrayal of Dean. Sam's apologies to Dean were deemed insufficient in season five i season six Sam was soulless. For the purposes of the show's premise, that the brothers love for each other is paramount, Sam always comes out as less involved and it has hurt the character immensely. This season is starting out with the largest "Sam doesn't love Dean" impression yet and I have little reason to believe the writers care enough about Sam to even give his reasons a cursory look.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-11-05 11:24
It didn't bother me so much in S4, because I could fully understand where he was coming from. Though I would have liked if he been given a chance to explain himself S5, I could see with how the story was progressing why they didn't. I really loved DSotM, but it did bother me that Sam was put in a bad light for going to college. I don't think that was the writers intention though.

I think that yes from Dean's POV it was supposed to be a negative because he was HAPPY to be leaving him and the viewers were so conditioned at that point to see things from his POV that it came off that way. At that point Dean had lost hope and was holding everything Sam ever did against him. And in Sam's guilt he didn't defend himself much and came to see a lot of his past innocent behavior as wrong.

And again I understand storywise why Sam's argument wasn't more fleshed out in S5. If Sam had come to terms with what he'd done, he might not have thought of jumping into the cage. With Sam's guilt and need to make amends than there is no way Dean would have let him (in fact Dean's letting is still pretty iffy- but still love SS)

I don't want the same lack of POV this year though. I think I've said before, not looking for your brother in this universe is not a minor offense-it's murder one. So I do sometimes worry you might be right. That they are taking a lot of risks with his character-YET AGAIN. But I do feel like it is purposeful and not neglectful. That they have a plan. Now it has yet to be seen whether the plan will satisfy and reactions to it will obviously vary regardless. I was good with 4 and mostly satisfied with 5 and you obviously weren't.

And what dissatisfaction I had season 5, stemmed mostly from them spending 2 seasons pulling them apart and they 1 scene putting them back together. I didn't feel they had time enough to rebuild their bond before Sam jumped. And the two following season it would have felt out of context to start talking about stuff that happened S5.

So if what they are doing this season manages to rip the scab off and allows them to deal more fully with longterm issues I'm all for it. In fact it was one of the things on my wish list. Another was getting inside Sam's head. But with this storyline that quickly went from a wish to a necessity.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-05 11:43
Quote:
But I do feel like it is purposeful and not neglectful. That they have a plan. Now it has yet to be seen whether the plan will satisfy and reactions to it will obviously vary regardless. I was good with 4 and mostly satisfied with 5 and you obviously weren't.
Right now, I'm concerned that the purpose is that a show runner who just came from a show where the view of the monster was paramount may be trying to promote that view on Supernatural. I'm concerned that we are being asked to support Benny over Sam. I'm afraid that Dean will have to chose between saving Benny or saving Sam at some point and that we will be expected to cheer him saving Benny and allow Sam to 1) die 2) be sent to Purgatory 3) other horrible damage because Sam didn't look for him and Benny is a more loyal, better brother than Sam. And don't get me started on brother number 3 Castiel. I see Sam being discounted as Dean's brother and I think we are supposed to think that that is a good thing. I hope I'm wrong, but so far, I'm not seeing anything except Benny the Good, Sam the bad.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-11-05 12:11
I feel like all those scenarios are fairly unlikely. Dean wants Sam with him now, right after he found out. He was shown to be devastated with Sam's death in tSRtS and in DSotM and that was when he was the most pissed with Sam.

I'm not saying Benny might not be a regular character or there might not be an episode where Dean feels torn between the two of them. But there is no way they could be idiotic enough to think the fandom would except replacing Sam with Benny. Hell they get up in arms with the suggestion of Cas doing that and he is a much more popular character. (Yes I know there are a few who advocate it, but please....Okay I can't think of a way to finish that without be completely offensive. So let's just say I think they are confused).

Any suggestions to the contrary IMO is just them screwing with us. Because Hell, even most Dean girls love Sam even if they love Dean more. I don't think they are going to destroy the foundation of the show. And I do think BOTH Jensen and Jared would fly to LA to have it out with them if they tried. Because both have said that the brothers' relationship is the third character on the show.

I'm not saying I don't have my own concerns, but I don't think any of those are likely.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-11-07 05:18
Percy, I just wanted to know when "Dean told Sam outright that Sam had no right to mourn John because he didn't love him enough while he was alive"? I honestly can't remember where that happened.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-07 08:16
In Everybody Loves a Clown. They are coming back for the hunt and having one of their talks on the hood of the Impala (ah the good days). Sam can see how broken up Dean is by John's death. He tries to talk to him saying he understands because John was his father too. Dean says that he knows the only reason Sam is hunting is to try and make things up to John, but everything Sam is feeling and doing is too little too late. And that was the last time we ever were shown anything about how John's death affected Sam.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-11-07 08:45
Oh, yes, I thought ELAC might be the one. I may have to go and rewatch, because I thought it was Sam himself saying all that. I do recall he specifically said at the end (right before Dean took a crowbar to Baby!) that what he was doing (wanting to focus on hunting) was too little, too late and he was doing it because he felt "guilty as hell" and "for all I know Dad died thinking that I hate him". I don't quite remember Dean saying anything to that effect though. I do remember that it was the last we heard of how Sam felt about John's death. I actually think Kripke admitted they made a mistake with that in one of the companion guides.
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-11-05 00:07
I'm one who is willing to wait and see what will be revealed for Sam--I am enjoying the season so far--but I need to know a lot more about why Sam made the decision he did, because it is not resonating for me.

The brothers have discussed not disturbing the natural order of things any more by making demon deals or busting open Hell--but that does not cover not looking for each other if one disappears. We know that because in Time After Time last season, Dean disappeared in very similar circumstances and Sam did not get in the car and drive away.

Instead, the bond between the brothers meant Dean could assume Sam was still working the case and the two could communicate and work together across time. Sam dug hard to find his brother and successfully brought him back to the present. Saving Dean was not against the natural order because Dean in 1940 was not where he should have been. Neither brother acted like Sam should have left Dean be.

So I have trouble with the idea Sam a few months later reacts to Dean disappearing by deciding he doesn't need to know what happened to him in case he has to do something against the natural order of things. He has no idea what happened, so how can he grieve? How can he move on? I love Supernatural because of how emotionally realistic it is despite the supernatural trappings. Sam not needing to know what happened to his brother does not feel realistic.

Especially because Sam by nature tends to be obsessive. We found out in season one he was like his dad that way. We've seen him struggle with this trait in previous seasons. We're seeing it on screen now as he cyber stalks Amelia. I don't believe he would be all analytical about Dean disappearing. I think he would need to know more--and then struggle if he truly had to make the decision not to help his brother because he couldn't in all conscience try to open the door to Purgatory.

I also have difficulty with the story appearing to tell me Sam's desire to run away from his family in his early years was healthy and a reflection of who he truly is. I've always read Sam's wish to be anyone but Sam Winchester as unhealthy. Sam wasn't running from his family and hunting so much as he was running from what he feared in himself. He knew he was angry and had a darkness inside that scared him. We were told he'd always felt that and didn't know why.

So to me, reconnecting with Dean and having to face what is inside him is a journey to accepting himself and redefining what that makes him. I don't see running away as helpful to that process, so I'm not really seeing this latest example as what I hope for Sam, or that Amelia's loss and Sam's loss are parallel and therefore she can understand him. Maybe I will later on, but so far, I haven't liked the way Amelia interacts with Sam.

If I do end up being convinced Sam really does want to leave hunting and that his life with Amelia is what he wants, and Dean is actually emblematic of everything he does not want in his life, that to me is a really dangerous story line. Because I only want Sam riding shotgun in the Impala if I feel the bond between the brothers, the unbreakable bond that stopped the Apocalypse and allowed Sam to defeat Lucifer. The bond that helped him take on hell damage even Death thought he could never survive. If Sam can in fact leave his brother out there alone, then I don't need him to be in the Impala. I need Dean to process that family truly does mean something different to Sam than to him, as Sam has told him in the past.

And that's a problem because I believe the brothers' bond powers the show. Deconstructing the bond is a huge risk, because putting it back together may not be as easy as taking it apart.

With all that said (I know, I know! tm, dr), these are just the concerns I have in the back of my mind when I watch. In fact, I am enjoying the story so far very much. I just know I need more of why Sam made his decision before this arc ends. So I continue to ask the questions of each episode. In season six, everything about Sam was eventually explained and to me, explained well. I hope the same is true this season.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-05 01:24
My problem is simple.I have always liked what they have given Sam, only problem was how they went about it.(this is because of fan reaction). In season 4 Dean had gone to hell (s03)and Sam was mysterious.In season 6 Sam had gone to hell (s05)and again Sam is mysterious but they don't waste anytime in showing what Dean was doing.Then now in season 8 Dean in purgatory(s07) again Sam is mysterious.Why do i have to always ask myself for almost the first half of the mentioned seasons what is the matter with Sam?Its getting tiresome.( In season 5 and 7 they were together). Sam might have been the boy with the Demon blood ,whom the evil forces coveted but Dean was never out of the picture .I always knew what Dean thought about Sam,about Bobby,about Cas ,about everything in general.Heck,th ere were episode with 90% Dean and 10% Sam.They kept Dean front and center with Sam. But now it seems like alienating Sam (please stress on "seems' as i may be wrong when the season further unfolds).If the payoff is not great then what they are doing with Sam is going to hurt him more.
They can keep Sam not looking for Dean,whatever they want,marry him with amelia, lola or whoever.The only thing i ask is the show show why Sam did so, not because Dean,Cas or some other character wants to know.The show has to show because they want to show.What i mean is at the beginning of season 6 they had the beautiful montage of Dean life with a nice background song and sad, stoic faces of Dean (even the last moments of season 5 ,they could not wait till the next season to show Dean's grief).That is how i want them to show.Not like in season 4 when they showed how Sam was after season 3 only after Dean forced Sam to tell.They have to tell me Sam's views matters to them as much as Dean. (I hated how they treated Sam's views during the Amy debacle)
PS: Thanks for a platform for me to vent my frustrations without hindering other people enjoying their discussions.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-11-05 02:03
Sam certainly is a hot topic. I am at the moment trying to understand why they went the way they did with Sam? is anything he has gone through playing into his mindset not just Dean disappearing ? . Or is maturity going to be the new word to explain everything?.

They go out and create brother type relationships for Dean and Sam has Amelia who either snipes at him or bites his head off everytime she sees him so at the moment I am not quite grasping that relationship .
I feel nothing is being explained I know people are saying we are only 5 episodes in however in those 5 Dean , Benny and others have had explanational storytelling.


There wasnt a need this season for me at least to have mystery's or controversy around Sam it should be straight forward storytelling and looking at it it doesnt seem to be the case .He has gone from one thing to something else at a snap of fingers .
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-05 02:09
Quote:
Sam has Amelia who either snipes at him or bites his head off everytime she sees him
lol
tigerlily2
# tigerlily2 2012-11-05 07:56
- Many out there still can't believe that Sam wouldn't look for Dean and quit hunting. Since that seems to be the creative choice, do you think Sam has a good reason? Could there ever be an acceptable explanation for his actions?

There could be an acceptable explanation for Sam's actions, but they are choosing not to give it to us. We get Dean's reaction, his hurt and betrayal and we see clearly how changed he is by Purgatory and his resentment at how Sam spent their year apart. But all we get from Sam is that he didn't feel like he was responsible for saving everyone anymore. Dean clearly hears that as Sam didn't feel responsible for looking for him. From the farmer's market scene, we get that Dean has thrown this in Sam's face over and over, and he does it again when Sam objects to Dean leaving the hunt to go on "personal" business.

In the past, one or two lines of dialogue have established that the brothers literally moved heaven and earth to look for each other when separated, but not this time, and that has to be a conscious writing choice. If there is a good explanation, they are not letting Sam make it. Instead, they are showing us how angry and hurt Dean is, and how guilty Sam is. It is damaging to Sam's character, but I don't know if the writers realize that or care.

- What do you think of Amelia? How do you think his relationship with her soured?

I liked her better in this episode. I do think there is a definite Dean-like quality to her that Sam is drawn to. There's a mystery there, but I doubt anyone is going to care by the time they get around to showing it.

It is another conscious writing choice NOT to tell us why Sam left Amelia in the middle of the night, why she let him go, and what happened to them in between the happy times of the birthday party and the midnight leaving. I want to know, but I don't see the writers spending a lot of time on it.

- Sam wants a life that's not by his brother's side. What do you think will have to happen for him to change his mind?

He has changed his mind. He is with Dean, as much as Dean will allow him to be. Apparently all it took was finding out Dean was alive, and that Kevin needed help. He claims that as soon as they close the hell gate, he's out, but we'll see.

- Is Dean's relationship with Benny pushing out Sam? Will Sam force Dean to choose?

Not out of Dean's life, just out of the 40 or so minutes of television we get each week, and out of the realm of care of some viewers. This episode spent a lot of time on the backstory of Benny and on how Dean came to trust him in Purgatory. Which is good, it established again how loyal Dean is to friends, even Cas who did terrible things, and Benny who is a monster. It showed Dean in a good light - he was completely justified in taking off to help Benny (and he got to say that explicitly to Sam when Sam objected). Even when Dean lies and hides things from Sam, it's not that bad because his justification is made clear.

It sort of boggles my mind how Dean, who was lying and hiding things, still came out "good" and Sam, who confessed and owned up to his year off right away (except for the dog in the car), comes off "bad". I read a comment on another board where someone said she wanted to "punch and punch and punch" Sam. I find it hard to believe that the writers are not aware they are creating that kind of response to the character.

- Is Sam depressed, or still unstable mentally? Did his year away from Dean do more harm than good?

I think Sam is damaged, but he still does okay, all things considered. He still makes connections with people, still has compassion, still functions, albeit in his strange drifter life. If anything, he suffers from constant guilt at not being good enough, and from making wrong choices that blow up on him over and over. He's a strange contradiction. He's a likable person, a kind person. He's smart, he has basic social skills, and he's nice to look at. Yet, he seems to attract dislike and derision, from strangers, from supernatural creatures, and even from his brother.

- Are you happy or unhappy with Sam's character development so far? Or is there no character development?

I think it's pretty awful, but it's so awful that it has to be intentional, and I'm curious to find out why the writers are taking this course with Sam. Will there be a payoff, or is it just that Dean is more interesting to them? Or do they think Dean is fandom's favorite, and they are servicing that? I guess we'll find out.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-06 07:01
I agree with your whole post and am shocked about the punch and punch and punch comment
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2012-11-05 08:59
For me, Sam has little or no character development for 3 seasons and it looks like the same thing will happen in season 8.
It appears that the showrunner and writers aren't interested in Sam or writing anything for him. However, I lay the blame at EK's door as he started this in season 4.
I don't understand why JC went this route as he had free rein to do whatever he wanted. Apparenty he doesn't care about Sam either if this is the best he could do for a story for him.
At this point, I am extemely angry at the powers that be and loath to a think they will do anything more than they have so far.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-05 13:19
What I also find troubling, Jo, is Carver and Co. knew Sam's character was going to take a major hit for not searching for Dean, and he decides this is the BEST story to tell for Sam anyway.

Now, let's say there's a twist to the story and Sam did search for Dean, then Carver thought it would be A-OK for the majority of fans to view Sam as a selfish, horrible brother for the majority of the season until the "twist." I'm not sure there is a good enough twist for that.

Plus, from what I'm reading, Carver thought Sam was too bogged down in "mythology," so I doubt Sam made a deal or had a breakdown or anything. Actually, I think Carver thinks it has been explained, which tells me he knows nothing about the fans or Sam.

I just want some solid writing/storyte lling for Sam. That's all. He hasn't gotten it yet though so I'm not holding my breath. As you said, he's been neglected and forgotten since S4. It's ridiculous at this point.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-11-05 13:39
Sam's mythology is part of him and some physically like the demon blood. They have tried to separate Sam from that mythology and give him normal.

I dont think there is a twist personally I believe they didnt think Sam not looking and other aspects would be a problem because they are relying on Sam didnt know where to look and the 'promise' . The thing is the brothers relationship is hard to believe in when they not only do this with Sam but in the space of 4 yrs create two brother type relationship's for Dean . I just would of thought Sam,s story was straight forward this year and no need for mystery's.
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-11-05 13:47
"Sam's mythology is part of him."

Yes, I agree with this. I think treating Sam as separable from his experiences is a mistake. I can understand how it came about, because I think Sam's story has tended to be told partly as allegory and that the writers genuinely wanted to bring out something different by switching modes, but I don't thin they are succeeding in making Sam's characterizatio n believable on the purely human level for a person who has had his experiences.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-06 07:05
They could have switched modes but they have to give Sam POV if they are going to give Dean mythology(super natural),so that Sam is not sidelined like in the latest episode
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2012-11-06 21:19
Quote:
They could have switched modes but they have to give Sam POV if they are going to give Dean mythology(supernatural),so that Sam is not sidelined like in the latest episode
Yes! I want Sam POV more than anything. I don't care if Dean has the mytharc as long as Sam has POV.
This, IMO, is where the writers and JC have failed mierably.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-05 14:21
I agree w/you and Etheldred! Sam's "mythology" is a part of him and makes up who he is as a person. Everything he's expereienced should have an effect on him and influence his future decisions, but I'm not sure Carver see it this way.

This story for Sam really makes no sense. It's illogical. The idea that Sam didn't know where to look so he didn't is just silly!

I wish I understood what they wanted to do w/Sam this year. Whatever they are trying to do w/him is not working. The story simply isn't strong enough! There's no writing to support his current character arc. The writing is there for Dean, Benny, presumably Castiel, but is absent for Sam. That's a problem for me.

I feel like I'm in a fog as to trying to understand Sam this year. It shouldn't be this difficult.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-06 07:06
Quote:
Everything he's expereienced should have an effect on him and influence his future decisions,
Exactly but they took care of it by using Cas's memory wipe or whatever that was i am still unclear
st50
# st50 2012-11-05 16:12
Quote:
Sam's mythology is part of him and some physically like the demon blood. They have tried to separate Sam from that mythology and give him normal.
....
I believe they didnt think Sam not looking and other aspects would be a problem because they are relying on Sam didnt know where to look and the 'promise' .
Sharon,
YES, Sams mythology is a part of him, and CAN NOT be ignored in the quest to 'give him normal', imo.
I can't believe they didn't KNOW it would be a problem. I believe JP has even acknowledge having discussed this. I just think they didn't realize the extent. And maybe they still don't, and just expect everyone to accept their premise and move on.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-05 16:54
I find it hard to believe that they are that shocked that people aren't happy w/the writing for Sam.

This is the same show where a father made a CRD for his son . . . where an older brother made a CRD for his little brother . . . where a little brother fought off Satan to help his older brother . . . where an older brother made a deal with DEATH to save his little brother . . . where a little brother accepted YEARS of horrific memories so he could wake up to help his older brother . . .

How could they be shocked that the audience doesn't accept that one of these brothers wouldn't look for the other, wouldn't even begin a cursory investigation into what happened!?!?!?!

Of course they have a lot of unhappy fans! They're spitting on the bond btw the brothers and on Sam, himself, IMO. "Who cares if this isn't how Sam would act, let's do it anyway!" Ugh!

They're not even properly telling this story from Sam's POV as his POV is not clear and vague!
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-05 17:53
As someone noted on this thread, when polls pit Sam vs Dean, Dean is voted most popular almost 100% of the time. Add that to the fact that Sam never got a clear stated POV in season 4 or to some extent in season 5 and season 6 had Soulless!Sam and then season 7 never addressed Sam's insanity and I think that the writers were under the impression that if Sam acts OOC that no one will care as long as Dean gets attention. If that is what happened they finally pushed things too far. I hope they finally explore Sam in the second half of this season. But I'm not holding my breath.
st50
# st50 2012-11-05 18:04
Quote:
If that is what happened they finally pushed things too far. I hope they finally explore Sam in the second half of this season. But I'm not holding my breath.
If they don't give some indication of addressing his mindset before mid season break, it'll be too late for me. (if they want to leave the full reveal to the second half, that's fine, but I need to have some indication that it IS coming - unlike the past few seasons.) I am getting very close to giving up.
The saving grace is that this weeks episode looked to be getting closer to the big blowup, and that HAS to show some of Sams reasonings/acti ons, doesn't it?? That's what has me excited and hoping and holding on.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-05 18:31
Quote:
If they don't give some indication of addressing his mindset before mid season break, it'll be too late for me. (if they want to leave the full reveal to the second half, that's fine, but I need to have some indication that it IS coming - unlike the past few seasons.) I am getting very close to giving up.
I hear ya. I'm also very impatient when it comes to Sam's story, and I feel I have a right to be impatient. We're always being told to wait for Sam's story/POV, and then it NEVER comes.

Quote:
The saving grace is that this weeks episode looked to be getting closer to the big blowup, and that HAS to show some of Sams reasonings/actions, doesn't it??

You'd think, but who knows w/this show? We may get something, we may not. I'm not going to expect anything though so if we get it, I can be pleasantly surprised!
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-05 19:53
The reason I said after mid-season is with the storylines I have seen for the next 4 episodes, if things don't come to a head this week, I don't see room for a Sam focused episode. The episodes are already shot, and things can't be sped up before we break for Hellatus. I could be wrong or they could be hiding the fact that Sam is going to get some focus before mid-season break, but I don't see where it would fit, for now.

We shall see.
st50
# st50 2012-11-05 20:24
Quote:
The reason I said after mid-season is with the storylines I have seen for the next 4 episodes, if things don't come to a head this week, I don't see room for a Sam focused episode. The episodes are already shot, and things can't be sped up before we break for Hellatus. I could be wrong or they could be hiding the fact that Sam is going to get some focus before mid-season break, but I don't see where it would fit, for now.

We shall see.
That's why I said I could wait for the full reveal, but I've got to have at least one flashback that makes sense and indicates - in no uncertain terms - that there IS something more to wait for!
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-05 21:28
I hope we get an indication there is something to wait for, but really I'm not holding my breath. I just don't think they care about Sam anymore. Making him consistent or even not wrong is not what they want to do.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-05 21:55
I'm not holding my breath either! So, what do you want to see happen w/Sam and Benny? I, personally, hope Sam stays as far away from the Benny/Dean relationship as possible. I don't want him offering his opinion about Benny or doing anything w/r/t Benny. Let Dean handle Benny. What are you guys hoping to see?
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-05 22:41
I'm torn. I actually liked it when Sam called Dean out on his hypocrisy about Dean getting Free Will but Kevin doesn't. I would like Sam to point out to Dean that Sam had every indication that Ruby was acting in good faith and still turned out to be dangerous and evil. Benny may not be evil, but it takes hard work for a vampire to not drink people. Lenore did it with her family as a support system. Benny stopped because he had a woman who made him want to change. Will he be able to fight his basic nature with no external support or a reason to fight it?

I do think Sam should remind Dean of the dangers of trusting a monster. I do think that Sam trying to keep track of Benny's actions to make certain that Benny is continuing to keep on the straight and narrow is not a problem, especially if he knows where Benny is or runs into Benny. I'm not talking hiring a supernatural PI, but if he happens to find out where Benny is, keep track to see if Benny is killing people. This would be like them keeping an eye out to see if Kate is sticking to animal hearts.

I'm willing to let Dean handle Benny if he has all the facts about what Benny is doing. I expect Sam to warn Dean and then Dean will give Sam all kinds of grief because how dare Sam question Dean's judgement after Sam has been such a bad bad brother.
emmau
# emmau 2012-11-05 23:19
I think the problem with Sam's hypocrisy charge was timing. If it had happened after his talk with Kevin where Kevin expressed regret over losing his life, it would have made sense. But at the time, Kevin appeared proud of himself for his escape and excited about the idea of shutting the demons into hell forever. There was no sign at that time that this wasn't Kevin's choice. So that definitely seemed more like Sam projecting his resentment on Kevin at that moment rather than actually being about Kevin's issues. If the scene had happened later in the episode, Sam's call-out would have carried more weight.

On the other hand, TFW never had the free will to just walk away from the situation in S5, did they? All they could do is decide what to do in the circumstances they were in--which is exactly the situation Kevin was in. Now, at this point Dean and Sam actually have more choice than Kevin, because they could conceivably walk away and leave Kevin to handle it alone. Sam already did. But Kevin was going to be hunted by Crowley no matter what, so his free will is limited to his circumstances. So I'm not sure how complete free will figures into Kevin's situation at that point.

I would agree that Sam could remind Dean about Ruby's seemingly good intentions (other than when she celebrated the idea of his brother going to hell in 3.16 and strung him along all of S3 about being able to save Dean). I would also agree that it's dangerous to trust a monster, but that might seem a bit hypocritical coming from Sam, who has always been much more willing to give monsters a chance. Isn't that just like the Winchesters, though, flip-flopping on each other just as their brother is coming around to their point of view (both Sam and Dean are doing that at the moment)? If Dean is providing Benny a friendship/supp ort like Lenore had, there's no reason for Sam to think he couldn't do the same. So if he's willing to give Lenore and Amy a chance, why not Benny?

Now, does Sam have the right to be suspicious? Absolutely. Can he keep track of Benny and let his suspicions be known? Certainly--Dean made no secret of his feelings for Ruby. So I'd have no problem with that. I think it's quite prudent to keep an eye out for a monster on the loose to make sure they stay on the straight and narrow, so to speak.

Of course Dean is going to give Sam grief if Sam's giving him grief, though. It's the nature of their brotherhood--th ey both tend to throw bombs when they're feeling really cornered. And let's be honest, all Dean knows at the moment is that Benny got him out of purgatory while Sam won't deny that he didn't even try to find him. So if Ruby being there for Sam earned her a pass with Sam (and Dean momentarily), I don't know why it would be surprising to see Dean's loyalty for Benny play out the same way. Now whether the end result of the entire storyline is the same is a different question.
emmau
# emmau 2012-11-05 23:36
But then, I've always thought both Sam and Dean were magnificent hypocrites, so more evidence reinforcing that neither surprises nor perturbs me.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-06 07:17
Quote:
Dean made no secret of his feelings for Ruby.
But then Dean came to trust Ruby too which played a big part in Dean breaking in hell so early.Quote:
So if he's willing to give Lenore and Amy a chance, why not Benny?
Because if Amy was killed for killing human's for saving her Son then Benny should be for killing so many people and drowning the evidence in Sea.I don't say i know how exactly Sam's brain works in this matter, as all of my impressions are just that impressions.My thinking is simply how you treat me is how i treat you.
emmau
# emmau 2012-11-06 07:23
Really? I don't see that at all. When did Dean show trust in Ruby in S3?

I think the difference is that Benny, going by what we know now, mind, stopped killing people more than 50 years ago. Amy had killed people within that week, and apparently saw nothing wrong with doing so. Plus, I hope that if Sam does come to kill Benny, it's because Benny is a danger, not out of some "You treated my friend this way, so I'll do this." How petty would that make Sam look?
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-07 01:18
Oh yes ,I was surprised that Dean broke so early and i always thought that it was because of Dean trusting Ruby.Quote:
"You treated my friend this way, so I'll do this."
Exactly what i meant this will be when benny becomes a Danger and Amy would stop after her son healed.I will personally be very disappointed if it does not turn so.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-06 07:18
Quote:
Now whether the end result of the entire storyline is the same is a different question.
I don't mind saying this"I hope the end results are exactly same"
emmau
# emmau 2012-11-06 07:24
To each their own, then. I'd hate more repetitive storylines--Lor d knows show's had more than enough of those. But I understand why some hope for that result.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-07 01:15
It would not be repetitive considering that it will happen to Dean
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-05 10:58
Many out there still can't believe that Sam wouldn't look for Dean and quit hunting. Since that seems to be the creative choice, do you think Sam has a good reason? Could there ever be an acceptable explanation for his actions?

One of my big problems is that I don't know what not looking for Dean consists of. Did Sam call hospitals to check if Dean had simply been blown to another state? Did he check newspapers or police reports for reports of an unconscious man or a man with amnesia being found? If he didn't ascertain that Dean was dead, why did he not keep one phone so that Dean could reach him if he was on earth? Even if Dean was dead, why didn't Sam keep one phone in case Dean came back from the dead? Lord knows it's not like either of them stay dead for any length of time. Could there be a reasonable explanation for Sam's actions. Well yes. Sam was having a full blown psychotic breakdown last season and it had been made clear that part of why he kept functioning was so he didn't leave Dean alone out there. With Dean no longer there, the impetus to keep going would be gone and Sam may well have had the breakdown that he was on the edge of last season. I can also see Sam getting stuck in his own head I have to find Dean, but if he comes back and the Impala is broken he will have a fit so I have to fix the Impala. I have to fix the Impala without distraction so I'll turn off my phones. I fixed the Impala, but I waited to long to look for Dean, I can't call Crowley because the last time I tried to work with a demon I released Lucifer, I could call Jody, but she's lost so much, I can't expose her to more risk. I could call Garth but he's sweet but not all that accomplished if this gets dangerous I could get him killed. We already looked into Purgatory to try and stop the Leviathans, there is no more literature. Kevin, I should do something about Kevin, but the demons have him and demons mean demon blood and I'm not strong enough not be around demon blood without wanting to drink. I could see Sam's mind going around and around until he just gets STUCK and couldn't move. Hitting the dog and having a concrete thing he can fix would help to heal a Sam who has felt like a failure for years. So I can see several reasons why Sam might not look for Dean. But I don't want to have to come up with scenarios on my own. I want them to SHOW me why Sam didn't look

-What do you think of Amelia? How do you think his relationship with her soured?

I think Amelia has a lot in common with Dean. I've said this before, so if it sounds familiar it probably is. In season one and in this season, Dean has been on Sam's case for dropping his responsibility to the world by not hunting. When Sam first met Amelia she got on his case for not taking responsibility for the dog. Dean consistently calls Sam a freak. Amelia starts by calling Sam creepy. Dean dismisses Sam's ambitions for a normal life. Amelia dismisses Sam for not having a normal life. Dean dings Sam for the way he eats. Amelia dings Sam for the clothes he wears. John made Sam feel that he was inadequate because he didn't live up to what John wanted him to be. Amelia is acting like Sam is inadequate because he is not what she expects from a normal person. Dean is damaged because he has lost so many people he loved. Amelia is damaged because she has lost an unnamed person. All of the less than positive things I said about Dean are mitigated by the fact that Dean does love Sam and they have years of bonding. That doesn't change the fact that Sam seems to have become involved with a woman who acts a lot like Dean in many respects. Many people repeat the same familial patterns over and over. Amelia is a bit like Dean without the redeeming qualities of love so far, but I can understand that Sam may feel comfortable with a bossy person who doesn't think he quite measures up.

Now why they broke up, I have no idea, since they haven't even shown them getting together yet. It could be simple incompatibility . It could be Sam's obsessive nature became truly creepy and stalkery as per his comments in Blood Brothers. Amelia's possible alcoholism could have been a break point. Since they have shown so little about Amelia and Sam, I can't even begin to guess why they got together, let alone why they broke apart.

-Sam wants a life that's not by his brother's side. What do you think will have to happen for him to change his mind?

I don't get the feeling that Sam doesn't want to be by Dean's side so much as he doesn't want to hunt and he knows that Dean wants to hunt and feels it is his calling. If Dean came back from Purgatory and said he wanted to be a fireman, or work construction or do anything but hunt, I don't see Sam throwing him out. Heck I could see them renting an apartment, or just living in a motel forever while Sam does handyman stuff and Dean does whatever and Sam would be happy. Dean has always conflated hunting with being brothers and has acted as if Sam wanting to settle down and not hunt is rejecting Dean instead of just rejecting hunting. Sam has seemed distant this year, but what I remember is Sam telling Dean that hunting together wasn't going to be forever. He's never said don't come near me or even hinted that if Dean wanted to settle down that they couldn't do that together.


Is Dean's relationship with Benny pushing out Sam? Will Sam force Dean to choose?

I think Dean's relationship with Benny has the potential to push out Sam. Benny is more attuned to Dean's need to hunt and fight and find a purity in hunting. Sam does not feel that way. I think Dean may have to pick between Sam and Benny, but I'm not sure Sam will be the one to force the choice. As long as Benny keeps his nose clean, I don't see Sam making Dean choose. Sam did after all encourage Dean to have a friendship with Castiel even though Castiel was telling Dean that Sam was evil and had to be stopped and later continued to call Sam an abomination. Heck Sam wanted Dean to try and reach Castiel after Cas had broken Sam's wall and killed thousands of people. So Sam does not have a history of making Dean choose.

Now if Sam has irrefutable proof that Benny is killing people then yes, Sam may try to take Benny down and Dean may protect Benny from Sam. But I'm not sure that this would be the same as Sam forcing Dean to choose between Sam and Benny. It would be Sam having to choose between saving civilians or killing Dean's friend. Frankly, with Dean's current resentment towards Sam, I think there is a chance that Dean would choose Benny over Sam, even if Benny was killing people.

Is Sam depressed, or still unstable mentally? Did his year away from Dean do more harm than good?

Heaven knows that Sam should be depressed and unstable mentally. It's not like he ever got any help for his PTSD. But, thus far he is not being written that way. He is being written as remote, distant and emotionally unengaged. All of these are signs of mental illness and PTSD, but they are not flashy signs, so TV as a whole tends to ignore them as mental illness.

The year away from Dean might have done Sam some good if it hadn't been precipitated by Dean being removed from the scene so traumatically. I do think that Sam having some down time was good for him. Dean got his year, so allowing Sam to find his footing and remove himself from the constant trauma of hunting had to help in some way. However, he still had to deal with the guilt and grief of losing Dean and that should have weighed on him heavily.

Are you happy or unhappy with Sam's character development so far? Or is there no character development?

I'm in the what character development category. Sam suddenly, without explanation or insight didn't look for Dean, acts as if Dean is a bother and never tried to alert anyone (say Garth) to the fact that a prophet of the Lord was in danger. We have seen him in a panic after he hit a dog. We have seen him have a seemingly idyllic birthday picnic with Amelia. We have seen him become a handyman with a dog and getting to know Amelia without demonstrating any grief over his missing and possibly dead brother. Currently we have met the New Sam, different from the Old Sam and not a hint of how the change happened. I could say I am unhappy about it, but the truth is I am devastated and furious over the neglect of Sam's journey after Dean. But that has been par for the course for Supernatural, so I shouldn't be surprised.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-11-05 12:28
I thought it was you who suggested the similarities between Amelia and Dean. I almost said it, but was afraid I was wrong.

I might have misunderstood what you said above, I supposed I can see Dean possibly choosing Benny over Sam in a particular situation (not anything that results in injury or death to Sam though). I doubt this would be shown to be in the right though.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-06 07:36
Percysowner,I really don't understand Sam's breakdown as i am really unclear of what Cas did.Sam's breakdomn possibility went with wind with Cas oh! convenient for Cas sacrifice
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-06 08:01
I don't know many people who understand Sam's breakdown, mostly because they didn't show it. I really think they wrote themselves into a corner. They stated that Sam had suffered the worst most horrible thing imaginable something that no human being could ever cope with. They had death put up a wall so Sam could cope. Then they brought down the wall and Sam coped just fine. They oversold the fallout from the Cage and then didn't know how to show a damaged Sam who still hunted so the came up with cure by Cas and swept the entire story away.
st50
# st50 2012-11-05 11:10
I am so DAMN sick and tired of Mysterious Sam.
If Carver had actually wanted a new beginning, I'd rather have seen him start with Sams POV and let Dean be the mystery slow reveal for a change. Seems even when depressed and alcoholic, we always know more about Deans mindset than Sams. Season 8 is no different. Just more of the same, and more excuses for Sam hate. I was hoping for something new this year.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-05 11:55
I am also sick of Mysterious Sam. I am sick of a show that is told almost exclusively from Dean's POV. And no, a few flashbacks to how Sam feels about someone who isn't Dean and that have NO relationship to Dean or how Sam feels about Dean. Especially when Dean is talking a blue streak about what he wants from Sam and how irresponsible Sam is for not doing what Dean wants and Sam doesn't even get to respond.

I wish we had started with Sam's POV, but the show seems to want us to root for one brother over the other and the one we are supposed to root for is NEVER Sam.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-05 13:00
I think I would be shocked if we actually started a season from SAM's POV!

Here are my problems w/Sam's current story:

(1) Did Sam and Amelia break up? We heard that Sam went to the cabin often so was he just slipping out that night or was he leaving for good?

(2) How long did Sam and Amelia date? The entire year? A few weeks? Months?

(3) When did Sam meet Amelia? A few days after Dean vanished? Weeks? Months?

(4) What in the world is attracting Sam to Amelia? It sure isn't her winning personality!

(5) Why should I care about Amelia? I know we're only 5 episodes in, but we've gotten so much character development and exploration for Benny but next to nothing about Amelia. Oh, she lost someone . . . who cares?

(6) Am I supposed to care about Sam's feelings for Amelia? Other than my liking Sam as a character, I'm not sure why, or if, I'm supposed to care about his relationship w/Amelia. They can remain separated forever for all I care.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-06 07:33
Quote:
I think I would be shocked if we actually started a season from SAM's POV!
me too and all points to rise about amelia are what i am wondering too.We already have a very sympathetic story (what the showrun ners might have thought but frankly i don't care if benny turns out to be a Bunny vampire in disguise) for benny and we still don't know who Amelia lost.May be like Dean's story gets shown Benny's will too and Amelia's will be like Sam's.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-06 07:28
Quote:
I am also sick of Mysterious Sam
please see my first comment for this article.Whoever goes to hell or purgatory it is Sam who is mysterious.
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-02 08:39
Please don't shoot me down for saying this, but it occurs to me as I am reading this that perhaps it is down to acting talent. If that is the case I shall be furious bcz J has turned in some wonderful performances, when given half a chance. Not sure whether it is just easier to write for someone who knows their character inside out. I doubt that poor J even knows how to portray Sam anymore. eeeek I hope I haven't opened up a hornets nest
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-05 12:53
Yeah . . . Mysterious Sam sucks!

He's been mysterious for four years now, and many of us are sick of it! I want to know as much about Sam as I do Dean. I'm sick of making assumptions about him and theorizing why he's done whatever he's done.

Just tell us the freakin' story. I want a beginning, middle, and end! Is that too much to ask?
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-06 07:25
Quote:
I am so DAMN sick and tired of Mysterious Sam.
If Carver had actually wanted a new beginning, I'd rather have seen him start with Sams POV and let Dean be the mystery slow reveal for a change. Seems even when depressed and alcoholic, we always know more about Deans mindset than Sams. Season 8 is no different. Just more of the same, and more excuses for Sam hate. I was hoping for something new this year.
me too
Maybe Baby
# Maybe Baby 2012-11-05 11:56
- Many out there still can't believe that Sam wouldn't look for Dean and quit hunting. Since that seems to be the creative choice, do you think Sam has a good reason? Could there ever be an acceptable explanation for his actions?

Yes. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Sam had some kind of breakdown in his year out. Or couldn't handle the trauma and stress that came from the loss of his brother. Even if this wasn't the explicit case I'm still seeing a steady narrative for Sam. It's not pretty seeing a character behave in a more humane realistic manner though it is understandable.


- What do you think of Amelia? How do you think his relationship with her soured?

I don't know how or why the relationship soured and am content to wait for the answer. As for the character herself I like what we saw in last week's episode and hope to see her developed further in her next appearances.

- Sam wants a life that's not by his brother's side. What do you think will have to happen for him to change his mind?

He doesn't need to be physically with Dean 24/7 to still be close to his brother and have a happy, successful relationship. So he doesn't need to change his mind one way or the other.

If Sam became the next generations Bobby complete with family and his brother the on the road hunter working the area and coming in every week or so then that'd be a near perfect compromise.

- Is Dean's relationship with Benny pushing out Sam? Will Sam force Dean to choose?

No. A massive world of no. I've said it before and I'll say it again; it is laughably myopic to treat the friends that the brothers have as objects that might actually threaten their relationship.

It is completely possible for both brothers to have relationships and friendships that are uniquely their own without it negatively impacting or eroding their sibling relationship. The issues that that particular relationship have are exclusive to what occurs elsewhere.

- Is Sam depressed, or still unstable mentally? Did his year away from Dean do more harm than good?

I strongly suspect he is. He has many of the signs of PTSD that is born of the flight response. Massive avoidance issues are the probably the best possible outcome when one genuinely considers the kind of psychological hardship he's endured over the past few years.

It looks like he may have built some kind of coping mechanims in his time off. Though we'll have to wait and see.

He's definitely been grieving and responding the trauma and shock of losing Dean as he did. That's been abundantly obvious in the immediate aftermath of S7.

- Are you happy or unhappy with Sam's character development so far? Or is there no character development?

Growth is always good. Evolution is necessary to fully create a brilliant character and I'm so glad there's been some movement under Carver's watch.
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-11-05 12:23
Quote:
-
- Sam wants a life that's not by his brother's side. What do you think will have to happen for him to change his mind?

He doesn't need to be physically with Dean 24/7 to still be close to his brother and have a happy, successful relationship. So he doesn't need to change his mind one way or the other.

If Sam became the next generations Bobby complete with family and his brother the on the road hunter working the area and coming in every week or so then that'd be a near perfect compromise.
As this change in role for Sam would fundamentally change the show, I'm not sure how this would be a near perfect compromise for the show. I think Carver is in very dangerous territory to raise this sort of possibility for Sam, as it may be difficult to establish why Sam is the best choice to be riding shotgun in the Impala, which I'm sure is the endgame for the arc. I'm not at all saying he won't be able to make us follow Sam's reasoning and emotional journey, but I sure hope the writers know they need to let us in.
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-11-05 12:38
I've said this before, but, while I wish that they'd never gone down this road, the most satisfying outcome for me now is if there is some change in lifestyle out of it for BOTH Sam and Dean, together. I'd much rather see a compromise than either the scenario where they each go their own way and let the other go or the scenario where Sam changes his mind and fully embraces the old unchanged model of hunting (of course, I would also object to a situation in which Sam's way prevailed and Dean conformed to it, but given the set-up of the show I think that possibility is vanishingly unlikely).

Mind, that's not what I would have chosen in the abstract. But with the situation now in play, next year I'd like to see them on the road most of the time, but also building up a base, like Singer Salvage or the Roadhouse. I'd like to see them both having made adjustments to fit the other's wants, and having found some new thing that would work for both of them.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-05 13:11
Ehteldred, I just don't know if that would work. Or rather, I'm not sure I would want to see a show like that. To me, the only real solution is for Sam to find a renewed purpose in hunting as Dean did b/c the show really only works if they are hunting and traveling together.

I see your idea as more of a "real world" solution if that makes any sense.

My honest, honest opinion is that this show is done. I think they need to start wrapping it up b/c the writers have run out of ideas. I am happy to be proven wrong, but for now, I maintain the opinion that the show is living on borrowed time. The writers either need to read some good fanfic to come up w/new ideas or seeks advice from Kripke. They keep recycling the same ideas/plots and move further and further away from character development and growth.
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-11-05 13:36
I think it could work, but then, I'm a big fan of the fifth season of Angel, which dislocated the premise of the show far more than what I am imagining, which would still be the same set-up for the majority of episodes. I agree that it isn't ideal, but I'm with Tim below, I really hate the thought that Sam should have to be converted to Dean's values and sense of mission, or that we are simply repeating Sam's move away from and back to hunting from earlier in his life. There has to be a different outcome for this arc to feel worthwhile. The different outcome COULD be Sam and Dean going separate ways but staying close, it's just that it's hard to imagine that stretching out through season 10, and we know they are planning for that many seasons.

I think you are entirely right about what WILL happen, though. I think the format of the show will be unchanged, and the only question is whether it will be because Sam has voluntarily changed his mind about what he wants or because some tragedy, probably the death of Amelia, is once again the catalyst to drive him back into hunting. I'm just not going to be very satisfied with either of those routes, so I am hoping against hope that they will surprise me and go with a third alternative.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-05 14:00
But when do you feel Sam began questioning hunting again?

I know this goes back to this whacky, OOC arc Sam's currently in but I thought Sam had decided some time ago that he was a hunter and would continue to be a hunter. I mean even SS hunted when he could have done anything else. When did Sam change his mind? What happened after the S7 finale that caused Sam to desire "normal" again? He went into that bldg a hunter, but left a guy wanting a normal life!?!?!?! Huh!??!!

And are we supposed to believe that Dean's "resurrection" is cramping Sam's life? What kind of story is that to tell?
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-11-05 14:21
Well, like I said, I wouldn't have gone this route myself, and I think they could perfectly well have given us a continuation of s7 Sam who was positively committed to the hunt, but I don't find Sam questioning the hunt to be part of his storyline that is out of left field to me. In s6, in the conversation with Colt, we see a Sam who has simply accepted that no one gets out of hunting. Sam is a pragmatist in some ways; once he believed that, he wouldn't invest his energy in pining for something else. When he did desire normal, as a kid, it was anything but pining for what he couldn't have, it was reaching for something he could make happen. And in season 7, Sam was undergoing a long journey towards absolute exhaustion. Yes, he still came out of it to help the girl in Born Again Identity, but that was doing what lay to hand to help a specific person, not necessarily any different from Sam helping out the kid with the sick father at the motel in Blood Brother by mending the AC.

Sam didn't walk out of the warehouse wanting normal. He walked out of the warehouse completely adrift. He didn't go in search of something, he had something dumped in his lap. And Amelia, unlike Jess or Lisa, isn't someone who was introduced as settled in a normal life. She's also a drifter loner washed up in a motel. As I see it so far, at least, it looks like Sam wanting normal is the outcome, rather than the cause, of Sam building a relationship with Amelia.

I guess I am among those fans who think that unless there is some clever reveal, Sam not investigating Dean's disappearance is a major failure in both plot continuity and characterizatio n, but I don't feel that way about Sam wanting out of hunting. I don't feel that Sam wanting out was the only or obvious or necessarily a great way to go, but I don't find it unbelievable and I actually feel that the backstory IS explaining how that part came about.
st50
# st50 2012-11-05 14:28
Quote:

Sam didn't walk out of the warehouse wanting normal. He walked out of the warehouse completely adrift. He didn't go in search of something, he had something dumped in his lap. And Amelia, unlike Jess or Lisa, isn't someone who was introduced as settled in a normal life. She's also a drifter loner washed up in a motel. As I see it so far, at least, it looks like Sam wanting normal is the outcome, rather than the cause, of Sam building a relationship with Amelia.

I guess I am among those fans who think that unless there is some clever reveal, Sam not investigating Dean's disappearance is a major failure in both plot continuity and characterization, but I don't feel that way about Sam wanting out of hunting. I don't feel that Sam wanting out was the only or obvious or necessarily a great way to go, but I don't find it unbelievable and I actually feel that the backstory IS explaining how that part came about.
First, I'm not sure how Sam walked out of that warehouse. They haven't addressed that at all. You may be correct, but you are theorizing. We just shouldn't have to do that! That's where the writers, at this point in time at least, are failing us.

Second, I agree with your last paragraph. It's the idea of not investigating about Dean part that I have a problem with. Sam can want normal and not want to hunt. That's fine, although he obviously (imho) isn't going to get there if the show continues.....
I am still holding - albeit by the skin of my teeth now - on to their being some satisfactory reveal about the Dean investigation. Although I can't imagine what it might be.
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-11-05 14:35
Well, I'm going by what Sam said in 8.1, that he had no roadmap, he fixed the Impala, then he got in the car and just drove, followed by hitting the dog as a pivotal moment. Believe me, no one will be happier than myself if that wasn't directly after the warehouse, and if there was some intervening encounter or event that caused him to decide against or give up on a search for Dean. My point was simply that we don't have a situation like Sam going to Stanford, with Sam positively wanting normal and going in quest of it; instead, we have a Sam without direction who found what he found by accident. That much, I think, is established by canon, barring a reveal that Sam was not only not telling Dean everything in 8.1, but actually lying. Granted, I'm speculating about where the Amelia thing will go from the point we saw in 8.5, but her initial encounters with Sam are now part of canon, and they don't fit the model of a woman who represents a stable, normal life from the outset.
st50
# st50 2012-11-05 14:39
Oh, ok, got ya. And agreed.
E
# E 2012-11-06 07:57
I think it could work too. There have been many times throughout the years on this show where it's clear that Sam and Dean had been staying with Bobby for long stretches of time and working jobs within about a days drive from his house and then returning when they were done. It's clear that this is what Bobby did as well. He went on hunts in his area and then returned home. So did Rufus for that matter and Pastor Jim. Even the short lived Steve Wandell appeared to be living in a very nice home and hunting from a set base of operations. I am not sure why it's fine for all these other hunters to have a home base, but not Sam and Dean. They could rebuild the salvage yard and work from there. It would also give Dean a great place to keep Baby in tip top condition.
Maybe Baby
# Maybe Baby 2012-11-05 19:47
Quote:
As this change in role for Sam would fundamentally change the show, I'm not sure how this would be a near perfect compromise for the show.
@Gerry

In the event this ends up at the bottom of the thread. I see it as an end point to the show and a way for the brothers to interact in a healthy, grown up manner. It compromises on the pull of the road versus the stability of a homebase. It's been demonstrated that having a homebase doesn't stop a person from going out to hunt from a semi regular to regular basis.

Anyway they've got to get there first. To that specific point where contrary opinions can be expressed without either character or fan automatically associating it with the destruction of their relationship or affection for the other. None of these theoretical outcomes should be considered mutally exclusive because they really, really aren't.
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-11-05 20:20
As a theoretical end point, I have no problem with Sam or Dean ending up doing something a little different, though I doubt Sam or Dean will ever end up living what they see as a normal apple pie life. I think they both idealized what that is and they do not suit the reality--not least because real life is not apple pie, it's messy.

But while the show is on, I think both brothers have to need the other, that they both have to be on a personal journey that is supported and ties into their shared journey. I think that powers the show, so what's up with Sam right now is really important to me.
Maybe Baby
# Maybe Baby 2012-11-06 04:51
Quote:
As a theoretical end point, I have no problem with Sam or Dean ending up doing something a little different, though I doubt Sam or Dean will ever end up living what they see as a normal apple pie life. I think they both idealized what that is and they do not suit the reality--not least because real life is not apple pie, it's messy.

But while the show is on, I think both brothers have to need the other, that they both have to be on a personal journey that is supported and ties into their shared journey. I think that powers the show, so what's up with Sam right now is really important to me.
Emphasis mine.

The bold part should be a choice that they reach not a sentence they have to carry out because of tragic external factors. I want them to choose to spend time together, to prioritize each other opinions while being able to stand by or own their individual stances. That's got to be earned and rushing through this awkward part isn't going to make the pay off sweet.

It sucks that Carver has inherited a merry go round that's been turned on and over at least twice before. The difference is that this time I believe he is going to fix it.
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-11-06 11:17
To me, the boys have already shown they choose to spend time together--Swan Song was predicated on how they feel about the other and that Dean chooses not to leave Sam and Season six finale was predicated on Sam feeling the same way about Dean. Defending Your Life showed Sam telling Dean he had no resentment about Dean showing up at his door because he would have been a hunter one way or another--Dean did not force him somewhere he wouldn't have been otherwise.

So I'm not really feeling a need for Sam or Dean to need to prove they would choose the other--they already have. What I do want to see is how they each help the other with crucial identity issues, how they work as a team because they balance each other in so many ways. The pressures of their lives mean they could go too far one way or another and because of who they are, either one being unbalanced means very bad things.

And, despite knowing how to push each other's buttons and being different people, I want to know they enjoy each other. That's been missing for a while in the show--the way they make each other laugh, the way they both see the funny in what could be horrible situations. I'm hoping we going to see the two guys who created Christmas in a grotty hotel room and enjoyed what they made. The singing birds dancing bunnies picnic flashback left me cold--though I am hoping it was intended to look completely unrealistic and that is the perception part of the story line. I think it very well could be.

I'd also love it if the boys could have it all and Dean could have a family with a son to raise and Sam could be a legal crusader with a gorgeous girlfriend, but I don't think this show does Disney endings. I see their personal arcs as coming to terms with themselves and their lives as hunters. The end game can have some kind of home base, but Kripke said he destroyed the Roadhouse because it did not work dramatically for the series. I think he was right.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-06 13:31
Like you, I'm also sorely missing the brotherly bond! The boys don't joke around anymore. They don't laugh together. They don't have fun together. Their relationship is very strained, and it's been that way for way too long. The second half of S6 put them on the right track, but it didn't last.

Aside from MTNB, HCW, and TGND, the only other episode, IMO, where the boys felt like the boys was the clown episode. I haven't purchased S7 b/c there are only three episodes I'd ever watch again: MTNB, HCW, and Plucky's.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-11-05 13:07
I’m not sure where this belongs but I’ll land it here if people don’t mind.

One of the things that struck me most about watching season 8 so far is how much, at the end of it all, whether that be at the end of season 8, season 10 or season 18, I want the brothers to be apart, to choose to be apart; and to be the better for it.

Before the hissing starts; this isn’t one of those ‘SPN would be better without Sam’ or ‘Dean is so horrible to Sam’ ideas. It’s a genuine desire to see, and a firm belief that they will be better off, if they are not together. I like the idea that they can both get their happy endings, that they can both get what they need, but not necessarily what they want, and I like the idea that, at the end, they have both have come full circle to find the truth; their own truth.

Secondly, in order for Sam and Dean to be physically together then one of them needs to sacrifice who they are; Sam to hunting or Dean to normal. If sacrifice and obligation is what defines brotherhood then there can never be a bond and I find the idea that people have to be the same, think the same, feel the same and act the same in order to be close to be silly.

Being honest, I’m finding it hard to get into season 8 and there are a few reasons for that. One of them is that I’m having difficulty seeing how, overall, Sam’s storyline fits into the show because, to me, it seems out of place and redundant because we know how it’s going to end. It’s almost like watching a match that I know the score of; it’s hard to truly get caught up in it. The first thing we were told about Sam and Amelia is that they had split up so we can’t get caught up in the excitement of the relationship.

Unless this is the last season, or they’re planning for a SPN without JP, then we know that he’ll remain hunting so the quest to get out of hunting seems pointless. It’s difficult to really feel the emotions of the character when we know more about the story of the character than the character whose story it is. I’m watching Sam be all hopeful and instead of feeling his hope I’m thinking ‘You poor bastard, it’s not going to last’. I don’t want to feel sorry for Sam, I want to have excitement and hope for Sam and so far this storyline isn’t giving me that.

However, I do like Supernatural as a whole and I believe (actually, I hope) that Carver isn’t just throwing this in for the sake of giving JP something to do so in an attempt to rekindle my enjoyment of the show I’m trying to find what purpose this storyline might serve in a show about brotherhood and hunting.

If this Sam, this ‘I don’t want to hunt’ Sam is the Sam that Carver is intent on then I would very much like for him to see it through to the end. I’d rather not see Sam flip-flapping to and fro, feeling compelled to do what he doesn’t want or being guilt tripped into hunting permanently. I don’t want him to experience some loss that he will feel compelled to avenge and so drag him right back in (though if he didn’t do it for Dean then I doubt he’d do it for Amelia) and I most definitely don’t want him to come around to the ‘right’ way of thinking because, thus far, the 'right way of thinking' has been Dean's way of thinking and having Sam become a clone of Dean would be a huge disservice to Sam. I want Sam’s way of thinking to be the right way of thinking; the right way of thinking for him.

So, I want him out; whether that be at the end of season 8, 10 or 18, when it ends I want Sam with that picket fence. I want him to have his dream because he’s spent a more than one lifetime sacrificing for it. He’ll have grown in that he sees the value of hunting and that there’s nothing wrong with not being ‘normal’ but he’ll have come full circle to find out that there’s value in who is in, and not just what he does.

The same applies to Dean. Sam might be as good as Dean but to me, Sam is a man who hunts, Dean is a hunter. He was when the show started, so again, at the end of the circle of SPN I’d like him to be when the show ends. Hunting is as natural to him as breathing, and he likes it. He spent a year in Purgatory and to me he revelled in it. From what we’ve seen of Purgatory so far, for the most part Dean was the aggressor and he assumed the role that he did in the pre-season; hunting things down and playing mediator between his ‘family’. The shot of Dean separating Benny and Castiel was almost identical to him standing between John and Sam in an earlier season. Even his frustrated affection was similar.

So let Dean hunt. Let him hunt with Benny or Castiel or both or neither. He’ll have grown in that he’ll have seen that he can finally accept Sam, that he can trust outside of family but he’ll still have come full circle and found that he’s a hunter, not someone just good for slitting throats.

This present storyline works, for me, if there’s an endgame in mind. During the past year Sam will have realised more than just that he wants out of hunting. He’ll have realised that, in contrast to Dean’s death the last time, normal was now attainable. As far as we know, evil didn’t touch him, maybe because he didn’t touch it (is Dean now Sam’s link to the supernatural world whereas in the past Sam was Deans?) but also because he is of no use to the demons and whatnot anymore. He’ll have realised with Amelia that, as she survived, it wasn’t he that was the cause of the deaths of past loves; it was the life, it was hunting. Had Sam met Amelia and then continued to hunt then she’d have been in as much danger as Ben and Lisa in seasons past. The college applications (and it’s telling that they came quite late in Sam’s year) were a rekindling of Sam’s old passions but were also an indication that Sam was now hopeful enough to plan longer term, unlike when he was hunting and every day was the day he could meet his death.

Now, Sam could look to helping people in other ways because killing monsters is the not the only way to do that. Should Sam go back to college and eventually become a lawyer, or a doctor or an accountant or a handyman, whatever he wants, then he can better people’s lives in that way. It might not be as flashy as decapitating a vampire but it’s no less noble and it’s certainly no less heroic. This is one of the things about the shows focus on huge self sacrifices, we rarely get to see the value of quiet heroes and small acts. It’s like the starfish story, andrew-ong.com/2008/02/06/the-starfish-story-you-can-make-a-difference/, there is a nobility in small deeds. Sam’s heroic does not need to be Dean’s heroic and because it’s not it should not have less value placed on it.

I know that much of the talk will be about the brotherly bond and whatnot but I’ve a few issues with that. For me, the ‘bond’, as it is at the moment, is based on too many conditions for it to be real. It’s dependent on them both being on the same page, which they rarely are, but bonds are based on trust, genuine trust, and there is little of that between Sam and Dean. In truth, I don’t think there can be genuine trust between them while they are both hunting because there was, and there always will be, reasons (however unwarranted) to not trust each other; the fear that Sam would turn, Dean’s experience in hell, Sam and the blood, Sam with the hallucinations etc; the list is endless. For me, this mistrust stems from the fact that they are so different. Dean finds it easier to trust those who think like him; John, Benny, Bobby, even Gordon. Being together 24/7 also plays a part in it. Frustration builds up, you see each other’s worst sides, you remember each other’s mistakes more etc. Police who work together, husbands and wives etc; they all get a break from each other; Sam and Dean don’t.

Another reason for the mistrust is the hierarchical position in the relationship. Those in positions of tutelage often don’t fully trust their charges when they’re on their own; I know I don’t. Every exam that comes around I look at the paper and I’ll think ‘Oh lads, they’ll make a mess of that question for sure’ etc but they rarely do. It’s the same with a parent child relationship. There’s often the fear, however small, that when your child goes out on their own they’re too young, too inexperienced etc so there’s almost an expectation that they will mess up. This is a pattern Sam and Dean are in. Dean, by virtue of the fact that he is older and he taught and trained Sam, will assume that he knows what is best for Sam and he has a tendency to push it. He also does it for others he feels he is a mentor to ie; Jo and Kristy. It’s not a criticism of the guy, I do the same thing. One of my subjects is an optional one so, at the end of the trial period kids might come to me and ask me if I think they should continue with it. Ultimately, the choice will be theirs but I’ll certainly push what I think they should do as being the right thing to do.

So, for me, in order for there to be a bond, for them to trust each other; they need to be apart. Dean needs to see that Sam can survive on his own, that he can make the right decision, and trust will grow from there.
Amy
# Amy 2012-11-05 13:43
This, Tim, is perfection. And exactly what I'd love to see. :)
Alice
# Alice 2012-11-05 14:00
Tim, you're back! So happy to see you again. :-)
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-11-05 15:15
I must be in an emotional mood because for some reason your post makes me really really sad. I don't know why. I ideally want happy endings for both of them too.

But perfectly content to hardly ever see each other-I don't know that really makes me sad. And thinking that the only way they can accept one another is to go there separate ways, instead of working it out. Like some divorcing couple, in one of those very mature, very depressing movies where the couple agree they are better apart.

And Dean has always wanted a family too. He's just accepted he can never have it, because it's too dangerous. So Sam gets to settle down but Dean doesn't.

What makes this so much sadder than a lot the other extremes I've read, is that I can see someone thinking this is good idea. Because the idea is incredibly logical and fits pretty well with Sam so far this season. And if they do this it will drain a lot of the joy from the earlier seasons for me.

Maybe I'll read this tomorrow and love it or at least it hopefully won't make me feel like pulling out the Kleenex's. It's extremely cold and rainy here, so maybe that effecting me. But as much as I enjoy seeing you back Tim, I really hoping your wrong today.
Mel
# Mel 2012-11-05 17:02
Oh my goodness, Tim. I can't even begin to tell you how much I hate the idea of them apart as the endgame for the show.
That feels so wrong to me to even contemplate it. I can't even comment anymore - I hate it so much.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-06 07:42
Hi Tim,I read in etheldred's comment you are back.I like to read your comments as much as some reviews in this site.Welcome back.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-06 07:52
Quote:
The first thing we were told about Sam and Amelia is that they had split up so we can’t get caught up in the excitement of the relationship.
I agreeQuote:
If this Sam, this ‘I don’t want to hunt’ Sam is the Sam that Carver is intent on then I would very much like for him to see it through to the end. I’d rather not see Sam flip-flapping to and fro, feeling compelled to do what he doesn’t want or being guilt tripped into hunting permanently. I don’t want him to experience some loss that he will feel compelled to avenge and so drag him right back in (though if he didn’t do it for Dean then I doubt he’d do it for Amelia) and I most definitely don’t want him to come around to the ‘right’ way of thinking because, thus far, the 'right way of thinking' has been Dean's way of thinking and having Sam become a clone of Dean would be a huge disservice to Sam. I want Sam’s way of thinking to be the right way of thinking; the right way of thinking for him.
again i agree
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-11-05 13:08
Okay, should Sam get out of hunting would they worry about each other? Of course, but they’ll do that anyway. The same would apply if one of them was a guard, a fireman, in the army etc. Sam surely worried every day that he was in Stanford that he would answer a phone call one day and he’d get the bad news and Dean would have been the same. However, I think that Sam has made peace with the fact that Dean is going to die, but he doesn’t want to watch him die and this could be one of the reasons he wants away from Dean. Dean has no hesitation throwing himself into danger, and is prone to recklessness, especially when he is on his own. Maybe the reason that Sam got back into the hunt this season is because he knew that if he didn’t, Dean would go alone because let's face it, there will always be a big 'last' hunt. (I wonder if Sam would have gone back hunting if he knew that Dean had Benny and/or Castiel to watch his back?)


I find the idea that Sam and Dean must be together to have a bond to be a bit overly sentimental. Families separate all the time. Countries, oceans and continents might divide them but the bonds remain so let the bond that Sam and Dean have be evident in other ways. Have Sam name his first born child after Dean, have Dean pop in for dinner, have them meet up for a beer or go to the concert on a whim, have Dean ring Sam with a funny hunting story; not because he feels he has to but because he thinks Sam might get a kick out of it. Have Sam do the same. Bonds are formed and maintained with the soul and with the spirit; not by physical proximity.

To be honest, I don't think is a possibility, and the reasons why would be a day’s work in making out but this theory gives me a bit of hope that there is a reason for this Sam this season. To be honest, I’d be happier with the idea if this was the last season but Carver has been talking about season 10 since the day he came to office. The vast majority of fans want Sam and Dean together when it all ends, and that’s not a surprise. The brothers being together is the premise the show is sold on. However, for me, I’d rather them emotionally together than physically together, but most of all I want them happy and I want them whole.
st50
# st50 2012-11-05 13:20
Thanks, Tim!
I enjoyed reading your comments. I agree that in a 'normal' family, (including my own) oceans and continents can separate without dividing the members. I just can't see this working for a continuing show called Supernatural. In Supernatural, each brother sacrifices time and time again for the other. If they can't find that trust and that bond (dysfunctional though it may be) then this show should end.
I can see this separation as endgame. And that would be great. But if the writers envision more seasons possible, then it's a bit early to begin this. imho.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-11-05 13:41
Very true but I was looking at it as an endgame, a hope. We waited five years to get his first redemption!

What the stories will be between now and then I don’t know. Given the amount of (sorry, but) rehashing of storylines past in season 8 I quite like the idea that there could be a reversal of season 4. Dean delves into his dark side (and yes, Dean has one. Anyone who likes torturing and finds a purity in killing has a dark side and it could consume him as quickly and as completely as Sam’s dark side did him. Jeez, two Winchesters and both of them ‘monsters’; one by birth and one by nature. John would be so disappointed!) and Sam pulls him back from the brink?

Honestly, I really don’t know. I realise that the story is all but unworkable. It’s rather complex, is very much told in subtext, will actually require a Sam POV and is most definitely a slow burner. I’m aware it doesn’t address a fraction of the concerns that some people have this season, nor should it, but it works to appease me in some slight way. I don’t particularly like to think that the writers and showrunners are so unimaginative that they’ll just rehash the same storyline with the exact same result.
st50
# st50 2012-11-05 14:37
Agreed! But what a redemption! He not only saved the world, but he totally and knowingly sacrificed himself to eternal torture. What a guy. What a redemption. :D

For season 8, we need something new (please no rehashed S4 for Dean, although I'd like to see him "less correct" than he always seems to be). If "New" is what they're going for here with Sam, though, it's not quite working for me. :P
Damn us fans for expecting they actually follow their own canon or explain what has changed and how! ;-)
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-11-05 15:03
Tim, for me, the situation you describe between Sam and Dean needing to keep each other human *is* the story of SamNDean. I've always thought they need each other to help balance the capacity for darkness they both have. I also agree Sam's mythology is part of him and a huge part of his search for identity. He's never going to be Everyman because Everyman does not have demon blood and hasn't been specially bred to be Lucifer's vessel.

That's why I've always seen Sam's desire to run away to another life and another identity as understandable but not healthy. His journey has to be self-acceptance of everything he is. And I believe he needs Dean to help anchor him in this--he needs to see unconditional love in the eyes of someone who knows everything he is and everything he has done, just as Dean needs to Sam to force him to live in the grey areas when he'd rather see things in black and white. Without Sam, Dean could become Gordon, who was a monster before he was actually turned into a monster.

Both men are struggling with competing aspects of their personalities that need to be reconciled, not suppressed. At least, that's the way I've viewed their personal arcs to date. I don't see Sam being happy lying to be perceived as normal or Dean being happy allowing his warrior side to take over. And I don't see anyone but each other being able to read what the other needs, because they have lived a very unique life. They are specially bred vessels who have changed fate itself.

I don't see Sam really being happy fixing radiators and or filing depositions. He has demon blood that has changed him permanently, according to Ruby. He has innate power she didn't really even need to bring out in him--she was Dumbo's feather. His mythology is important to his character. I'm not comfortable with it dropping out of the story completely and viewing Sam as just this guy who got dragged into something he didn't want and now should return to his normal life. There was no normal life--he was running from something, not to something.
st50
# st50 2012-11-05 15:10
Gerry,
I agree that Sam needs Dean as the only remaining person on earth who truly understands what/who he is, and all he has been through - the only one he doesn't HAVE to lie to about everything - and who accepts and loves him anyway. The only other one who knows everything is Cas, and unless they really work on that bond, Cas is never going to fill that need for Sam.
On the other hand, I think both Cas and Benny are in the position to fill the need for Dean - keeping him from his dark side and totally "going Gordon".
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-05 15:40
Wow do I hate this scenario. Dean gets lots and lots of emotional support, Benny, Cas, heck even Ellen comes back from the dead to buck Dean up, while Sam gets only Dean. And the one thing that Dean DOESN'T do is love Sam unconditionally . Dean loves Sam when Sam is behaving the way Dean wants. When Sam wants to go back to school after taking care of the thing that killed Mary and Jess, Dean gets all pilly about the fact that Sam doesn't want to live Dean's life. When Sam wants to save Dean and makes it clear that he values Dean's more than his own, Dean shoots him down. Now when Sam comes back to his original position that he really, really wants out of hunting Dean tells him that 1) Sam doesn't really know what he wants and 2) that Sam is a selfish jerk to not want to hunt until he is killed in the line of duty. Dean's love is conditional. Sam has to live the life Dean wants or Dean can't picture Sam in his life at all. So Sam has no one to really talk to or to understand him, because Dean can't accept Sam's basic needs at this time.
st50
# st50 2012-11-05 15:57
I hate it too, Percysowner, but am I wrong? Is there anyone else for Sam???
I do think, though, that Dean DOES love Sam unconditionally . He just shows it in his own way. He's angry yes, but never actually wants to lose Sam. Wanting what YOU think is best for someone is actually loving them, in a warped way.....
This is just one reason, while I love Dean, that I could never be a Deangirl, as such - because he is so pissy and controlling to the ones he loves! (lisa, Ben, Sam, Cas, Bobby -probably Benny.... and freakin' obedient and unquestioning to the others - John). I love (and in fact am married to) a man who knows how to empathize with others and acknowledge his emotions. NOT a snarky, "no chick flick moments"Dean.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-05 16:11
You are right Sam has absolutely no one except Dean. He has been systematically isolated from everyone over the years. Bobby liked Dean better, Cas is Dean's friend, Benny is Dean's friend, Garth worked with Dean by himself and then later with Sam and Dean but the bond was with Dean. The only creature who has interacted with Sam other than Dean was Ruby and that was a disaster.

Sam is the loneliest person I have seen on TV, possibly ever.

I do agree that Dean is very controlling of people he loves and I have problems with that part of his personality.
st50
# st50 2012-11-05 16:15
Quote:


Sam is the loneliest person I have seen on TV, possibly ever.
Yes. How can you not feel for the guy. No wonder he grabs at Amelia.... I think just about anyone would do at that point..... and no wonder he becomes rather obsessive/stalk erish. Poor Sammy.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-06 08:11
Quote:
Sam is the loneliest person I have seen on TV, possibly ever.
again i agree
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-11-05 16:38
The story is interesting and layered enough to lead to different interpretations , for sure. I didn't see Dean ever not loving Sam for Sam's early decisions to leave. He does want Sam in his life and he doubts Sam living a life of lies is actually going anywhere good, but he doesn't stop loving him.

The biggest strain on whether Dean can love Sam unconditionally comes in season four when Sam rejects him for Ruby. Dean does react as John did (who I believe did love conditionally both boys), but when Bobby (who I believe in this story stands for unconditional love) smacks him upside the head and tells him you don't walk away from your family, Dean listens and reaches out to Sam. And when he heads out to Stalls's Cemetary in Swan Song, he is armed with nothing but love, and he tells Sam he believes in him and if there is nothing else he can do but stay with him until he dies, then he'll do that. It's that unconditional love that reaches past Lucifer and empowers Sam to fight in a way hatred of Lucifer could not. That's the way I interpreted the story.

I believe Sam returns this love, which is why I'm befuddled at his response to losing Dean. I believe he would need to know what happened.

Right now in the story, I don't think it is a sign that Dean only loves Sam conditionally to feel Sam should have picked up the phone in case he could help Kevin. Sam and Dean's decision to crack open the tablet pulled Kevin into danger. They do owe this 17 year old high school kid something. I don't understand Sam thinking otherwise and that he can have a laissez faire "whatever happens, happens, nothing to do with me" about Kevin. But I don't see any lack of love coming from Dean because he thinks Sam made a weird decision. Criticizing each other's decisions is not the same thing as conditional love.
st50
# st50 2012-11-05 16:48
Good comments, Gerry. I have also seen the unconditional love for Sam from Dean, and have never questioned the reverse.
I love the idea that Dean went to the cemetary just to stay with Sam as he dies. That is exactly what Dean said he was doing, and it had some beautiful, if unintended, consequences. ie the end of the Apocalypse.
I also agree, and have stated ad nausea (sorry!) that Sam would need to know what happened to Dean. Not just walk out and fix the impala.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-06 08:09
Quote:
Dean's love is conditional.
I agree .
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2012-12-12 16:15
Quote:
Quote:
Dean's love is conditional.
I agree .
Yes, I do, too. I don't think Dean sees or understands who Sam is. I base this on the fact that he thought Sam was drinking demon blood for kicks, power, etc. He never understood that Sam was doing it because he thought it would stop the apocalypse and save the world.

What I want to see this season is for Dean to be played by Benny. I can't think of another way for Dean to understand how Sam has been feeling. He needs to get to the point where he has some understanding of Sam if they are going to be able to connect. I want the brothers to be equal partners not what we've had so far.
emmau
# emmau 2012-12-12 18:25
I think if we're honest with ourselves, neither Sam nor Dean know each other nearly as well as they think they do. Dean doesn't understand how Sam could not even try to look for him, and Sam honestly thought telling Dean that he wouldn't have anyone to answer to was a selling point on getting Dean to believe he'd love hunting alone. It's easy to point to instances where Dean hasn't understood Sam, and that's fair. I think there are also instances where Sam has proven he doesn't always see behind the big brother facade or that he just doesn't see Dean clearly. For example, he seemed to chalk up all of Dean's objections in S4 as Dean being bossy, instead of recognizing that Dean had a real reason to object to his actions. Sam had a valid right to do what he thought was right, but Dean had a valid right to voice concern over his methods. So neither was completely right or wrong here.

As for love, I've never thought either brother's love was conditional. When Sam has walked out on Dean or dismissed him as weak, I never doubted that he still loved his brother. When Dean speaks harshly to Sam or hides behind his walls, I still know he loves Sam. They love each other, but they don't always treat each other well. That's just Winchester--or brothers everywhere.

I reject the idea that Dean can only understand what Sam was going through with Ruby by retreading his storyline. I think he does understand--it just doesn't make it right. Sam surely understands what Dean is going through right now, given his past experience, but he's not displaying any more understanding or compassion about it. Sam and Dean both have to listen and bend in order for them to reconnect. Right now they can't be equal partners, because neither one is really willing to open up (Dean about purgatory and Benny, Sam about his year off and how he felt about about Dean being gone) and neither is listening. This is, to me, definitely a two-way street.
TotallyLeah
# TotallyLeah 2012-12-12 18:43
Completely agree with this, particularly the conditional love part. I have never seen any evidence in the entire series that they have stopped loving each other, not once. As mad and disappointed as they have been this season or past seasons I've never doubt that.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-12 18:47
DAMN. I am alway typing crap in front of my name. This one is kinda cool though, I might keep it :-)
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-11-05 16:24
For me, Cas is a strong relationship for Dean, but as an angel, he can't quite understand Dean in the way Sam does. I don't mean to downplay Cas, because he is important to Dean, but Sam is still the centre of Dean's focus because he helped raise Sam and the two of them understand their family life and how it shaped them. Benny is interesting and to me it is a little dangerous putting someone like him in the story at the same time as they put a what they seem to positing is a natural and real gulf between Sam and Dean. We'll see how that plays out--it needs to be handled carefully.
st50
# st50 2012-11-05 16:49
YES! But I'm having trouble trusting that they CAN handle it carefully!
Amy
# Amy 2012-11-05 22:32
I agree with you and Tim. The Winchesters need to be able to trust each other. If there is no trust between them then she should pack it in and not be anywhere arond each other.

I love the boys and I love Sam and Dean together. But the lies need to stop. Especially if they want to trust and be trusted by his brother. otherwise I feel like I'm wasting my time. the lies and the reason for the lies are juvinile. If they are afraid their brother will think less of them for something then honestly? They dont know their brother AT ALL. let conflict and tension come from outside sources.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-05 16:34
I don't see why Sam can't also embrace hunting and find meaning in it as Dean has. I'm not sure why Sam's ultimate goal has to be a wife, dog, and 2.5 kids.

I truly believe Sam had embraced hunting. That's why this story is confusing to me.

When Sam "returned" from Hell, he immediately fell back into hunting. At that time, he didn't know he had been soulless for a year and a half, or that they were hunting anything in particular. There was no "mission" when Sam returned. What did he do? He got a sandwich, drank a beer, and asked to be let back in on the hunt. He didn't complete college applications or get a dog. If there was ever a time for Sam to break away from hunting, I feel it was then. He could have said, "Well, Dean, now that the Apocalypse has been averted, I'd really like to go back to college and get my degree. I don't want to hunt anymore, man," but he didn't. He didn't say anything like that. He didn't hint at wanting to do anything other than hunting.

I feel Sam made his decision some years ago to be a hunter. I feel he decided he was a hunter. If he changed his mind at some point, I want to know when and why. I'm not saying it is out of the realm of possibility that Sam would want out of hunting; I just think he hasn't been in that mindset for such a long time that it requires some good storytelling to support the story. Unfortunately, there is no writing to back up this story, IMO.

I'm also not sure why the boys can't both enjoy and like hunting or find meaning in it. A large reason this story feels repetitive to me is b/c we witnessed Dean's displeasure and disilluisonment w/hunting since S2. During that time, we heard nothing from Sam on how Sam felt about hunting so I assumed he was fine w/hunting. Now that Dean is finally back on board, Sam is the one who hates hunting. I'm like, "Really, Show? Couldn't you think of something else to do w/Sam than recycle this tired, played out plot? We haven't just been treated to this story for the past SIX years or so?!?!?!"

Anyway, I'm not sure why it would be bad for Sam to like hunting. If Sam was settling or resigning himself to hunting, it would have been nice to see some dialogue/scenes to support that POV but we got nothing. So, no, it's not out of the ordinary for Sam to want a different life, but I can't help but wonder why and how we got to that point now.

When did Sam decide hunting wasn't the life for him? An hour after Dean vanished? Sometime during the past year when he was having the hallucinations?

This is the problem w/not giving Sam an emotional POV. It leaves the viewer w/far too many questions.
st50
# st50 2012-11-05 16:51
I agree, lala2, Sams decision not to hunt at all is confusing based on where I thought he was. And I don't like it.
To me, though, I'd live with that one, if they could explain how he just gave up on Dean. Not let me assume/logic my way through it. We need SAMS POV!
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-05 17:47
I can buy Sam not hunting once he looked for and failed to find Dean. He took on Hell Sam only because he didn't want to leave Dean alone, so once he decided that Dean didn't need him, I can see him folding under the pressure of the years and getting out before he really did have a complete breakdown that he couldn't recover from.

I have trouble with him not notifying someone about Kevin and his plight and not leaving a contact for Dean since neither one of them actually stays dead or in another world, but I can fan wank the idea that Sam knew that the only way to stay sane was to get out and the only way to stay out was to have no way to be dragged back in for one more job.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-05 18:14
Percy, that's how I feel too. If Sam had searched for Dean but failed to find any leads, I would be okay w/that b/c it's better than not searching at all.

But if I'm honest w/myself, I can't imagine Sam ever STOPPING his search for Dean. I could see him becoming less obsessed w/the search, but I don't believe he'd ever give up completely.
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-11-05 16:45
I haven't liked Sam since S4, and I'm talking FF-through-his- alone scenes dislike. This is the first time since S4 that I have been interested in Sam's story and am watching it closely.

I find it completely in character for Sam to have not looked for Dean. He thought he was dead. He was in shock and alone. He ran into Amelia by shear circumstances, recognized something in her that he could connect with. Not to mention, after having lost Dean, I think Sam would have most definitely looked to 'hide' in a safe world once again. I have no problem with any that at all, not to mention, that's where TPTB decided to start his season, and I certainly don't look at Sam's decision not to hunt for his brother as Sam being a selfish jerk (which is a view I most definitely gave Sam since S4).

I have thought since 8.01 that Sam has his own version of PTSD, and where that leads Sam and how he reconnects with Dean to the point of choosing hunting or realizing he is a hunter is intriguing. Can't say I ever had that feeling with Dean's Lisa story!

Mind you, I don't think I'll ever warm up to Amelia's character. I'm not thrilled with the actress in that she was first presented as a bitchy lady and the actress chose not to or is unable to project a warmth beneath that bitchiness that I, as a viewer, can connect to. I also think she has zero chemistry with Jared. But I can look past that into Sam's story and journey, and that is what has caught my interest.

For the record, I am 100% opposed to love interests on SPN, and especially after the sappy emotional journeys both brothers have been on for the past three years. I want hunters! I want hunters that are seeking a higher goal that living a 'normal' everyday life.

I also don't think Amelia (or Benny for that matter) are all that important in the overall scheme of things. They are there to drive Sam and Dean's story forward. If, at the end of the season that doesn't happen, I'll be bitching loudly and once again, as I did often last season and, particularly, S6 when Dean had no purpose in the story at all that I could see.

For the most part, I am loving S8. Purgatory is the coolest story the show has had and, seriously, I didn't think I would ever care about Sam again. My only concern with S8 at this point is that I hope that Carver doesn't over-develop the support cast again (Hello, Bitten. What was that all about anyway, and why was that episode important to anything that we know at this point?).

I still trust Carver to have a plan for the season, and I think he is following that plan. I am paying attention to repetitive themes being brought out, and the big one is that Dean thinks Sam dumped him. He's made several snarky remarks about Sam's 'year off,' and Sam has been remarkably tolerant of that so far. It will blow up, and when it does, I hope the brothers separate for a while. It's going to take something big for them both to realize the other brothers' perspective, and I don't think they can do that while they are together. Outside parties are going to have to get each brother to stop and think. I hope those two parties are Amelia and Benny (because then I will consider the show having made good use of the characters).
st50
# st50 2012-11-05 17:00
Hey, Ginger. Talk about the other side of the coin. I thank you for your point of view. I have never seen Sam as unsympathetic or selfish, and if I was to ff through something, it would've been Dean. Although I never have.

Perhaps, not trying to be cruel or argumentative here, but that's why you find Sam's actions this season as not ooc? You certainly have not viewed him in the same way as me, and I see them as VERY ooc. Not saying either is right or wrong, here, just different.
Purgatory is interesting, but it's all very violent, and that's not what I watch for, so I don't find that the 'coolest story' ... Different strokes. And that's fine. We all find something, and that's what makes Supernatural great. :)
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-11-05 17:26
Ha! I wouldn't have blamed you one bit for FF'd through Dean the past two seasons. His story was boring with a capital "B".

Actually, I've surprised myself being interested in Sam's story...I mean seriously? A love story! Me? No way. That in and of itself may have caused Sandy to hit the East coast.

But what has me really interested is that the two brothers are so far apart right now with so many left-over issues that have never been properly addressed, that the puzzle of how they are going to come together really has caught my attention.

No, FF'g Sam has nothing to do with my view of Sam, I think. I started that when I couldn't stand to be in the same room with Ruby2. I've watched every single episode since the Pilot and I think I'm very familiar with both brothers. I simply think that it is most definitely within Sam's nature to do what he did. When Sam is afraid, scared, hurt, or mad, he walks away. He needs the space. I think it's PTSD Sam version and having lost Dean, thinking that Dean was dead, threw him into a tail spin. Sam needs Dean just as much as Dean wants Sam. Rock No.1 and all of that.

Yeah, I like action and, after the last two seasons, was quite ready for massacres and big fight scenes, so Purgatory slaughtering works well for me. I also like to see what I picture as realistic hunters. IMO, hunters live in a supernatural world and they need to be just as mean and tough as the monsters they fight. I don't want to see a hero who is seeking to be less than a hero.

I also know that I will very much be in a minority when I say that I'd like to see the brothers separate after their big fight. I just don't see how any of the issues they need to deal with can be dealt with if they are together. I think it's going to take an outsider to push each of them into thinking about the tough issues they need to face within themselves and in relation to their brother. Sam would listen to Amelia. Dean is another case. He would have listened to Bobby, but Bobby's gone. I don't know if Benny can do that or not. Benny strikes me as being one to help if asked, but not one to step in. Here again, I miss Rufus. Dean would have listened to Rufus.
st50
# st50 2012-11-05 17:34
Gosh, I hope you aren't really to blame for Sandy! :D
Yea, the love story part isn't doing much for me either.
And I see what you mean about Sam running from issues - but we've also seen him very OCD about saving Dean/finding Dean, helping Dean. Yes, without his Rock no. 1, Sam would be lost and adrift, but I don't see him as leaving Dean, unless he was physically/emot ionally incapable.
(I also think hunters need to be badass, I just like a story/situation that is more than that, and other than the Benny/Cas/Dean triangle, purgatory isn't )
i love it when the boys fight things out. That seems so real (at least in my family) - get physical, leave for awhile, and when you cool down, it's over. Done.
I'd like to see that played out. So much has gone on in the past that they've pushed under the rug and not fought through. Partly I think (like so far in Season 8), Sam will pretty much always cave to Dean instead of fight him.... until it blows up. And then it's just nasty!
I'm hoping the blow up happens in this weeks episode.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-05 17:38
Quote:
I also know that I will very much be in a minority when I say that I'd like to see the brothers separate after their big fight.
I wouldn't mind them separating after the big fight PROVIDING I don't ever have to deal with Dean saying that Dean thinks Sam has been mad long enough and Sam should stop being a bitch even though Dean isn't totally pure AND as long as Sam doesn't have to admit that Dean was really the one who was right while Sam was just too confuzzeled to make any decisions and he will always defer to Dean's judgement. Yes, I HATED that in The Mentalists Sam wasn't even permitted to be angry at Dean as long as he wanted because Dean had lied to him after promising to help him tell reality from the lies Sam's mind was feeding him.

But I could live with a separation that could lead to a reconciliation where for once Dean isn't the completely injured party and Sam is wrong, wrong, wrong.
st50
# st50 2012-11-05 17:40
Quote:

But I could live with a separation that could lead to a reconciliation where for once Dean isn't the completely injured party and Sam is wrong, wrong, wrong.
Me too
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-05 18:00
I hated that too, Percy! I remember people cheering on Dean for telling off Sam, and all I could think was, "Sam has a right to be angry as long as he chooses."

Dean was angry w/Sam for an entire season and Sam never called him a bitch, and the audience didn't get angry w/Dean for daring to be upset w/Sam. It was what it was. Why did Sam have to get over it b/c Dean was tired of Sam being angry at him? That never made any sense to me.
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-11-05 20:34
I will confess to being one of those that cheered when Dean told Sam to quit being a little bitch. It kind of cleared my craw from the Fallen Idols mess.

But I am not concerned with these small potatoe issues after the last two years of zero characterizatio n for either brother. I want a bigger payoff this season for things that have been on the table for getting close to a decade now.

I want this season to at least start to build characterizatio n for Dean that will lead to him choosing to hunt, instead of hunting because he's only good at killing or because he is trapped in the hunting life and that being a hero is something quite different than being a martyr. Being clear-eyed after Purgatory and killing everything he can find is a good place to start identifying that he has a dark side (a monster side) and he needs to deal with that, because we all know that is not Dean Winchester. I hope the writers know that, too.

I want this season to start building characterizatio n for Sam to where he learns that sacrifice is part of maturity, which means that Sam needs to start to understand himself, in terms of himself and not Dean or John or destiny, blah, blah, blah. Simply atoning for his bad judgments and spending time in the cage does not and did not bring him to any understanding of who he is, what he wants, and how he is going to find a balance in his life. He's all over the place as a character (for the writers anyway), because none of this has ever been addressed within the show. That's why we get things like Sam stomping off and Dean calling him a little bitch and Dean moping around handwringing for seasons on end, and I'm way past that kind of storytelling now. I want the writers to earn their pay.

I don't expect giant steps for mankind in this one season, but I would like to see some focus put on plots that have gone on and on and on, and I want it done in a grown up way that suits two getting-close-t o-middle age men who have lived a rough and ready life their whole life.

(I will whisper this one little secret desire. I want a confrontation with Roy and Walt, small potatoes or mashed. Dean made a specific promise and that should be addressed :) )
st50
# st50 2012-11-05 20:38
Ginger,
I'll forgive the cheering (LOL) because I like your wish list.... Including the whispered one. :)
Trucklady
# Trucklady 2012-11-06 00:47
(I will whisper this one little secret desire. I want a confrontation with Roy and Walt, small potatoes or mashed. Dean made a specific promise and that should be addressed :) )

WOW I was wondering if I was the only one that wanted to see some payback like Dean promised. "I'm gonna be pissed" were his words I believe and then they never showed the payback. I would think Dean would have taken some time to go find them and make good on that promise.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-05 17:52
That's an interesting point. I also find Sam's actions highly OOC, and a lot of Samgirls do too. I've never FF'ed through any part of the show.

Maybe those who have FF'ed Sam would perceive his actions as being "in character" b/c they haven't really been paying attn to his character. I honestly don't think anything about Sam NOT looking for Dean is in character. It's highly out of character. If it were something that made sense to most of us, we wouldn't be complaining or criticizing the story.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-06 08:31
Quote:
Maybe those who have FF'ed Sam would perceive his actions as being "in character" b/c they haven't really been paying attn to his character
I agreeQuote:
If it were something that made sense to most of us, we wouldn't be complaining or criticizing the story.
I am with st 50 on this unless the show shows me sam's mindset i am not even going to touch this issue with with hazmat suit
hartbroknagn
# hartbroknagn 2012-11-05 18:23
Honestly, I found RoboSam more interesting that this season's Sam. He almost seems like he has been hitting the Prozac counter too often. I just find it so unbelievable that he would go from the Sam in the last few seasons that was sure that they could never have normal lives to this Sam that wants to settle down and build a house in the suburbs. Granted they are older and more jaded but to have such a 180 degree turn around seems suspect to me.
st50
# st50 2012-11-05 18:36
I LOVED RoboSam, of course that was AFTER they'd stopped with the WTF is up with Sam business, and we knew he was missing a soul.
i agree that this Sam is rather unbelievable... and I'm REALLY hoping they're doing something similar this season. - Not Soullessness, of course, but something serious.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-05 19:22
Quote:
Honestly, I found RoboSam more interesting that this season's Sam. He almost seems like he has been hitting the Prozac counter too often.
LOL! I know, right? This S8 Sam seems heavily medicated or something. It was only last week where it looked like he skipped his dose and flew to the other extreme! Haha!

I ADORED Soulless Sam! I was intrigued by him from 6.01 to 6.10 or whenever he "left." Honestly, I could have watched SS all season long. That's how much I enjoyed him. SS was definitely more interesting and intriguing than S8 Sam so far. I hope there is more to S8 Sam than wanting a normal life b/c that's not very interesting, IMO. I can only hope there is more to his story.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-05 19:57
I admit that I loved SS once I knew what was going on with him.

One of my theories is that Sam IS under medication to deal with the PTSD and mental illness that was threatening to overwhelm him last season. It would fit with last season's story, explain his disconnection (some psych meds can level out emotions to where the patients say they feel like they are moving through cotton), it would explain his not looking for Dean if he was unable and it would be a good reason for him to want out of hunting, because he can't be sure he won't crack again if he goes back. I hope they actually go this way, but who knows.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-05 21:17
I like that theory, Percy, and it would work for me. The only problem is I don't believe Carver wants to acknowledge what Sam went through last year. I think you saw the same interview as I did, but I got the idea that Carver wanted to ignore Sam's truama b/c it was too confusing for him or something. If that weren't the case, then I would think your theory is very likely and would definitely explain Sam "not searching" for Dean.
hartbroknagn
# hartbroknagn 2012-11-05 20:00
Both JA and JP have such amazing ranges of acting, I am hoping that this version of Sam won't last all season. Dean is always kind of like a dog just about ready to bite but Sam has had so many different "personalities" over the course of the show that one begins to wonder what is happening.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-06 08:33
Quote:
one begins to wonder what is happening.
(I am just joking) and am still left wondering.....
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-11-06 03:20
With Souless Sam they didnt actually need to write for Sam on a emotional level that elephant could be avoided. And that is why he got good storytelling . Its only when Sam has a soul back he becomes a tortoise and retreats into his shell because they can't deal with Sam on a emotional level.


This season they were aspects of Sam and his recent past that they could of made relevant in Sam's actions instead they came up with the shaky foundations.
st50
# st50 2012-11-05 20:59
My bottom line....
"You know me. You know why. I'm not leaving my brother alone out there."
Where did we lose this Sam? Yes, he's been through a lot since this quote (finale S6), and Dean was in a different situation, but I haven't seen anything to change his devotion to Dean. It's all supposition. I need exposition.
Reetu
# Reetu 2012-11-05 23:26
Hi All,

Its a grrreat read- all the theories all the different perspective. I dont have any problem where all this Sam wants different thing will lead. The only problem i have digesting is the Sam cares about Sam a lot and him not looking for his brother and just brush teh whole idea by one simple dialogue that he has nowhr to go to serach for Dean or even think abt wht happened is beyound comprehension to me. All it want is some more explanation of what happened to Sam exactly after dean disappeared and not juts Sams happy/not so happy FB with Amelia..I mean i get more and more confused thing abt that..

I would also want to see this whole thing play out provided i get some hard answers and not just one line
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-06 08:35
Quote:
what happened to Sam exactly after dean disappeared
exactly what i am waiting for .They can show Sam/amelia story in whatever speed they want this part of Sam's story which you mentioned is really necessary
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-06 13:09
I highly suspect there is no answer that will satisfy those of us who are dissatisfied b/c I don't think the writers see a problem. I'm pretty sure the writers think saying Sam had no leads and resources sufficiently explains why Sam didn't search! We probably won't get much more explanation than that!
RMF
# RMF 2012-11-06 02:02
- Many out there still can't believe that Sam wouldn't look for Dean and quit hunting.  Since that seems to be the creative choice, do you think Sam has a good reason?  Could there ever be an acceptable explanation for his actions?

I still can't believe Sam wouldn't look for Dean, and I get really tired of thinking about ways that this turkey of a premise could work. Short of a complete physical or mental collapse, there's just no way he wouldn't LOOK. That and $3.50 will get me a really nice cup of coffee, though. Once the writers appeal to promises that were never made and don't make sense to have been made, the ship has sailed on character logic. They wanted to tell a story about the conflict between hunting and a normal life, and they spent their efforts on how to play out that conflict, not how to set it up. The current division in the ranks shows just how distracting it can get when you start out with a setup this bad.

- What do you think of Amelia?  How do you think his relationship with her soured?  

It's all a bit too romcom for me. They meet, they hate each other at first, then they start to fall for each other and can't admit it, etc. The writers seem to be hoping her abrasiveness is amusing, but so far it isn't, and I don't see why Sam doesn't just pack up the dog and hit the road. The chemistry isn't there. We learned almost nothing about Jess over the past several seasons, but nevertheless Sam's love for her feels more real than this. As for how their relationship ended, I suppose you could look no further than that she's an alky. I imagine, though, that it's going to involve Sam's anxiety and secretiveness about his past. I hope they don't turn Sam stalkerish, because his character doesn't need another blow, and that would be a particularly repellent one.

- Sam wants a life that's not by his brother's side.  What do you think will have to happen for him to change his mind?  

Sam needs an emotional respite more than he wants a life apart from Dean. Once upon a time he wanted a normal life, but there was plenty of material showing that he came to embrace hunting, often was the one to keep Dean's head in the game, and even spoke lyrically during the Zachariah-induc ed amnesia about the blessing of being able to save others by doing what they do. I believe that in the handyman scenes in the last episode, the writers intended to show us that even removed from the context of hunting, Sam's sincerest impulse is to help others and fix their problems. I think Sam's own recognition of that is what will lead him back to hunting, not being ordered to do it or being guilted into it. In order for him to turn the corner, though, he has to find a way to accept life's frailty, and God knows how you do that when death has cut such a swath through your life as it has through Sam's.

- Is Dean's relationship with Benny pushing out Sam?  Will Sam force Dean to choose?  

It will probably seem headed in the direction of Dean pairing off with Benny instead of Sam, because right now gung-ho Dean is channeling the Purgatory mode of thinking and doesn't care for organic apples. Ultimately, however, Dean will choose Sam because Sam is a pain in his ass and is the one who challenges him and keeps him thinking about what he's doing. Sam's opinion of Benny could go either way, because he has always been the one to argue in favor of giving the monster a chance, but the writers could forget all that and choose to focus on Sam's bad experience with Ruby.

- Is Sam depressed, or still unstable mentally?  Did his year away from Dean do more harm than good?

Sam is anxious but not unstable. There's no sign of a loss of control. He seems fatalistic about Dean's choices until there is immediate danger. I think he is harboring a lot of pain over what he's been through, but I don't see shingles falling off the roof. Yet, anyway.

- Are you happy or unhappy with Sam's character development so far?  Or is there no character development?

Very unhappy. The I-want-a-normal -life issue was done and dusted several seasons ago. I hate the premise that Sam didn't even look for Dean. In an epic adventure story like this, the normal-life vignettes just don't hold a candle to the Purgatory hack n' slash.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-06 13:05
You are the second person who has mentioned Amelia's alcoholism! I guess my mind is really drifting during the show lately b/c I missed the signs.

Great post! I wholeheartedly agree w/you about the "romcom" feel to Sam/Amelia. They hate each other, but then fall for each other. Why couldn't she be nice? Why did she have to be mean and nasty? That is so cliche!
E
# E 2012-11-06 08:42
This is a little outside the box here, but one of my current fanwanks is that both Sam and Amelia tried to kill themselves and that their entire 'normal' relationship took place in a coma state, like Dean and the reaper in the Season 2 opener, and that Sam chose to wake up and rejoin life, and Amelia didn't. I know that this probably isn't the case, but when I was re-watching Blood Brothers the other day, I noticed in Sam and Amelia's last scene together that her clock over in the upper right corner of the screen was blinking, like it had lost it's power or had never been properly set and was no longer keeping time, just blinking on the same time over and over. Then I wondered if that could be some kind of clue to what is going on with them or an indication that their entire relationship existed outside of real time. I am SURE that I am over analyzing here, but could it mean that everything that Sam was experiencing with Amelia was somehow outside of time, or in a fugue state? The clock thing was probably just a staging error that the crew made, but on the other hand, this is a Ben Edlund script and he can put in the subtle clues with the best of them and is not prone to being sloppy or unintentionally random. I'd love to ask the PTB about this.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-06 09:07
That's actually an interesting idea. Does that mean the dog died too? Because it stayed with Amelia.

The only contradiction is that Dean smelled dog in the Impala, but it could have been another dog.
E
# E 2012-11-06 22:53
Yeah, I was trying to figure out how all the little points of Sam's story could be worked into this theory, and I can't quite make everything fit. It's just a theory, but I LIKE mysterious Sam (sorry guys, I know many of you really, really don't!) and I am really watching his scenes carefully for hidden clues. The blinking clock struck me as odd. Either that or it's a mistake. :D
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-06 09:11
One thing about Amelia. The only real indication we have that she and Sam had a romantic relationship are the words of JC who said Sam had a love interest and the fact that when Sam said he found something he never had before Dean immediately asked if it was a girl. Sam said there was and then there wasn't. We haven't gotten true romantic vibes from Sam and Amelia yet. That could be because they are doing a slow burn, but it could be because it was only a friendship or something else. After all, Ruby was described pre season 3 as being an accomplished hunter.

Actually when Sam said he'd found something he never had before I thought he meant he discovered a real belief in God and had become a priest, which I really like better than romance with anyone. But obviously they aren't going that way.
suzee51
# suzee51 2012-11-06 17:12
For those of you who still can't believe that Sam wouldn't have searched for Dean:

I am a fan who really enjoys reading fan fiction stories and I read one today that I truly enjoyed because it takes all of the bits and pieces we have been given throughout the series and winds them together in to one concise and well thought out whole.

I hope that you enjoy this as much as I did!

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8398456/1/Collateral-Damage
st50
# st50 2012-11-09 16:25
Quote:
For those of you who still can't believe that Sam wouldn't have searched for Dean:

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8398456/1/Collateral-Damage
Thanks for the read Suzee51. Fanfiction is not usually my thing, but I enjoyed that one. If only because I want the issue addressed!
Scullspeare
# Scullspeare 2012-11-07 09:41
Quote:
Many out there still can't believe that Sam wouldn't look for Dean and quit hunting. Since that seems to be the creative choice, do you think Sam has a good reason? Could there ever be an acceptable explanation for his actions?
Sam’s decision not to look for Dean absolutely has to be a creative choice because there are so many more believable ways to get to the exact point this season kicked off. For me, it’s very tough to swallow the idea that Sam, standing in that lab after watching his brother disappear and Crowley take Kevin would think, “Crowley’s right. I’m all alone. And, logically speaking, every time I’ve tried to rescue my brother before it hasn’t ended well, so I just won’t look. I’m going to toss my phones and try to live a normal life.”

Huh?

Even if Sam had no leads on where Dean went, his Ivy League-educated brain was back to functioning at full capacity.
1) He had an angel summoning spell (Appointment in Samarra). Does it not seem logical he would summon a ‘Clarence’ and ask “Is my brother in Heaven?” If the answer was, “Yes,” then this is the one scenario in which I buy the argument that Sam has "learned his lesson when it comes to messing with fate.” In this circumstance, I believe Sam would have accepted Dean’s death, driven to the nearest bar, ordered a beer and toasted his brother. “I hope you found Mom and Dad and you’re all sitting around a sticky table at the Roadhouse in Ash’s Blue Heaven.” But if the answer was, “No,” that means Dean was most likely in Hell or Purgatory.
2) Dean’s been to Hell and Sam saw what it did to him; Sam’s been to Hell and knows first hand how bad it is. With this information, does it seem realistic that Sam would just decide to leave Dean there, without at least trying to get him out? For me, the answer is a resounding no.
3) I also don’t buy that it would not even occur to Sam that Dean was in Purgatory (as implied in We Need to Talk About Kevin). At the prompting of the Alpha Vamp in Family Matters, it was Sam who figured out that monsters go to Purgatory when they die. In Survival of the Fittest, they’d just killed Dick Roman, the king of the monsters, and Dean disappeared in the same cosmic blast. According to canon, Sam’s pretty good at putting 2+2 together so why in this instance are we suddenly expected to believe he came up with 5?

Then there’s Kevin, a high school kid made a prophet by destiny not choice who ends up in the clutches of the King of Hell. Even if Sam had no leads on Dean, he knew Crowley had Kevin. He also knows how to summon Crowley (Meet the New Boss). Instead, he throws up his hands and decides to not even try looking? Does that sound like the Winchester way? No. In the Winchesters’ “long, storied career of dumb and stupid” (Folsom Prison Blues), heart has always trumped logic, especially when an innocent was involved.

Story wise, I don’t have an issue with Sam failing in the above attempts, giving up in dejection/frust ration and walking away from the hunting life to mourn – leading us to where we picked up Season 8. But even in this scenario, it’s tough to swallow he’d toss all his phones – just in case.

The fact Jeremy Carver chose not to take this route (and here I’m wearing my rose-coloured glasses) tells me we don’t have all the pieces of the puzzle. At least I hope we don’t; if Sam’s actions are as presented, I need a more believable explanation for them.

I mean, Sam, IMHO, did not seem that surprised to see Dean in the opening moments of We Need to Talk About Kevin. Either it was clumsy filmmaking (and with Bob Singer behind the camera, I find that very hard to believe) or there’s something more at play. Plus we don’t yet know why he left Amelia in the middle of the night and drove from Texas to Rufus’s cabin in Montana. Seems a strange destination for someone who walked away from every aspect of hunting life. I hope against hope that once these moments are placed in context, Sam’s actions will make more sense.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-07 21:24
Re: Tonight's Episode - Sam's life w/Amelia couldn't possibly get more boring, could it? Hahaha!
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-07 21:55
Can someone PLEASE explain Sam's attraction to this woman? I don't understand it.
RMF
# RMF 2012-11-08 02:20
Given Sam's own pain and his status as a central character, I don't understand why he's playing the supplicant role. In most of the scenes, he's reactive and has practically no lines. It should be the guest character gradually eliciting something from a traumatized Sam instead.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-08 06:50
You're right, but instead we have Sam trying to find out why Amelia's such a bitch. I don't care. I'd rather get some info on Sam. Amelia is not important to me.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-07 22:02
Why are these boys together again? Dean doesn't seem to like Sam all that much, and Sam would rather be daydreaming about the horrible Amelia Richardson.

I'm at a loss at this point.
st50
# st50 2012-11-07 22:05
Popping back in to say.... BORING episode! Only the last few minutes had any HOPE of being interesting to me, and they squandered it. Poor Jared, is all I can say. What a waste.
(and yes, sorry for the negativity) SO disappointed in this season.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-07 22:16
Don't apologize, st50. I hear ya. This was actually the second episode I was halfway enjoying so far, but the brother stuff just brought it way down for me.

I honestly have no idea why these two continue to travel together. Dean has a LOT of pent up resentment and anger toward Sam. He's never forgiven Sam for any of Sam's bad choices or else he wouldn't have mentioned the demon blood drinking. Dean's even holdign the soulless stuff against Sam. Wow is all I can say to that. He considers Benny his "true" brother so why travel w/Sam? Why doesn't he just drop Sam off at the nearest community college and keep it moving? I know some will say "Dean loves Sam." That's true but that doesn't mean they have to hang around each other. He can love Sam from afar.

Sam. Sam is a wreck this year. He admits to running away from the Dean issue, which I'm taking as evidence that Sam indeed did absolutely NOTHING to search for Dean. Oh great. Thanks, Carver! He randomly daydreams about the most unlikeable romantic interest I've ever seen on this show. At least Sam (and Dean) had chemistry w/Bela and Katie Cassidy's Ruby, IMO. JP and LB have no chemistry, and their romance is mind numbingly boring! Plus, Sam is always threatening to leave so why doesn't he just go on his merry way and leave Dean be?

There is no fun or joy to the brothers this year. This is more painful, IMO, than last year! I'm not even getting the sense that these two like each other let alone want to hunt together so I can't help but wonder why they continue to travel together. Never thought I'd say it, but they need to cut ties!
st50
# st50 2012-11-07 22:27
WTF is up with the start - after THAT LOOK at the end of last episode, we're supposed to believe that these 2 stayed in silence for an entire car ride to wherever-ville, and then picked up another case to work TOGETHER - where there was ZERO indication of anything Supernatural, - a decapitation by an angry wife - But GARTH was already there? HUH? Yup. Not a even a believable beginning.
The flashbacks were boring and moved us nowhere, except we know Amelia's hubby died.
Sam admits to running - ok. Now it's canon. He did NOTHING.
I really think they crossed my line in the sand with this one. Glad people enjoyed it. I did not. Not sure I'll watch next week - I'll take the week to think about it. This is getting painful.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-07 22:42
It really is painful, isn't it? I was just remarking on another board that S/D's relationship is in the gutter and is simply not entertaining, to me, to watch.

Again, I wonder if they even like each other! Dean is hating on Sam for stuff Soulless did?!?!?! Really?!?!? That is some deep resentment. Sam can't even apologize for that crap b/c HE DIDN'T DO IT.

I know I'm biased against Amelia, but I honestly find all her scenes incredibly boring. I don't care that her husband died. I don't understand what Sam sees in her. I don't care about their relationship in the slightest. She is completely unlikeable to me. They have ZERO chemistry. None at all. Sam's daydreams don't even make sense to me. And by that, I mean I don't understand why he chooses to daydream of her when he does.

And you couldn't be more right about the beginning! I didn't think of that, but that is a great point. There's no way Sam just got in the passenger seat and shut up since he clearly cares about Dean being friends w/Benny.

I don't even know what to think about this show anymore. Thank goodness for "Arrow" and "The Walking Dead."
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-07 22:42
Well that was just chock full of information, wasn't it? I mean sweet little Garth used to be a Dentist, can you believe that? And he's so chill that if he was attacked by Dr. Ellicott, the Siren AND a Specter all at once they wouldn't even touch him. And he's doing his best to make the hunting world a better place by taking on Bobby's role and doing such a great job that Dean approves.

Dean is still pissed that Sam didn't look for him and that he drank demon blood, and that he hooked up with Ruby and that he DARED to come back soulless and that while soulless he didn't care enough to tell Dean he was alive. Boy am I glad that Carver decided that Sam's history really isn't too convoluted to deal with. And of course we get to be told how Sam has always, always been the evil one in the family.

Oh and after all these weeks we finally get the answer we have been waiting for with baited breath, Amelia's husband died in Afghanistan. And she was sad and didn't want anyone to pity her, so she began to drink and move to a totally different town. How have I been able to stand the suspense.

And then there's Sam. He slept with Amelia, oh yeah we already knew that. He is kind to people and tried to give Amelia a chance to talk, well we kind of knew that already. He felt bad when Dean disappeared and ran away like the big old coward and unworthy brother that he has always been, oh we knew that already.

And next week we get Castiel's story and Dean bitches at Sam again for not looking for him. I'm guessing Sam doesn't say much because who cares about him?

Guys, do you think we can get an extra special episode where Garth meets Amelia and they discuss how hard it is to get a medical degree that doesn't get the respect that physicians get. Lord knows, that's what I'm watching Supernatural for.

Okay, I did think Sam was great telling Dean to just get over things, but otherwise, not happy.
st50
# st50 2012-11-07 22:48
glad you and lala2 are with me on this one, percy. I was beginning to think I was the only one - lots of positive comments on twitter tonight, and that's the only other place I've been.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-07 23:01
I've generally found that most viewers love every episode. I used to be like that until S5.
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-07 23:17
But watching TV is what I do for fun, if it stops being fun why would I do it? The last season of 24 (of all things) I stopped watching when they made the one last reliable person the bad guy without any intention of undoing it. And I had seen every episode until then.
I know there is not much point in saying this since you are all convinced that this is just ... whatever .... bad writing? ... but as what Dean said was at least 50 % unreasonable (and more than that depending on if you want to take sides) it seems to me that they are working up to Sam also finally getting his say and clearing the air of much of the baggage.
However since I don't have any idea really and I have been wrong in my assumptions so far, please forgive my optimism.
st50
# st50 2012-11-07 23:24
Yes, eilf. I've quit watching most shows at some point when I disagree with the direction they take.
I think I've reached that point with Supernatural. This isn't fun, and I see no indication that you are right ie that Sam will ever get his say and clear the air. He seems to indicate that he feels he's said it. No secrets on his side, which is why he picked on Dean having Benny. It's not Sam holding back, apparently.
I can watch online or DVD if this season ever finds any redeeming episodes. I am extremely disappointed in Carver and his writing team. There were finally so many possibilities after Blood Brothers, and they didn't build on a single one.
Change disappointed to devastated. I'll take the week to think....
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-07 23:29
Don't apologize for your optimism :)

I am just truly at a loss w/Sam and Dean at this point. Why in the world does Dean resent and blame Sam for stuff RoboSam did? He was the one arguing to Bobby that SS was nothing like the real Sam, so it was disappointing to learn that he actually does fault Sam for SS's actions. It also seems he resents Sam for not saving him from Hell. A lot of that was very surprising to me.

Realistically, I don't see how these two got in the same vehicle and traveled somewhere together. They don't even like each other all that much. I don't know.
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-07 23:38
Well now, in fairness, I think that last guy before Dean was going to shoot someone over a long ago baseball game....if so Dean being pissed about Sam being soulless (plus he said he didn't remember what he said - though i bet that isn't true) isn't really that hard to believe.

Of course I could hardly hear it, the sound is still godawful on my TV, I don't know much (anything) about baseball, and it could have been a euphamism for something else, but it seemed to be about a baseball game.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-07 23:49
You heard correctly. He was definitely upset about a baseball game.

I'm just bothered that Dean subconsciously resents or blames Sam for Soulless Sam as Sam was truly helpless during that situation.
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-08 00:00
See, but that's the whole thing! He needs to get it all out. He has abandonment issues (wow, big revelation from me, do I get a prize? In further news: water is wet). He has to get over it all. He really does. And he can't if he doesn't admit it.

The entire SPN universe (I mean the in-world universe, not the fans) needs to give Sam a break at this stage though.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-11-08 03:00
Yes Dean needs to get it all out what are we if we are not attuned to Dean's issues over the course of the series and their importance I am surprised he didnt throw in I wish you had never been born in there as well.

But he was under the influence never was a excuse for Sam but will be for him. What a interesting situation Jeremy and co have set up and so painfully obvious as well .I mean we will ignore what Sam has been through recently but we can sure have Dean hold Souless Sam against him.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-08 06:57
Elif, I hear what you're saying, but I have to agree w/Sharon. At the end of the episode, all Sam got to say was Dean kept Benny a secret. Big whoop! He didn't get to let anything else out.

Why couldn't Sam tell Dean he resents Dean making him feel like a traitor for not enjoying hunting or for not being a carbon copy of Dean? If they both have longstanding issues w/each other, then Sam's should get some exploration as well.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-07 22:57
Percy, I just love your sarcasm! Your post is just spot on! Hahaha!

I knew Dean had some deep resentments, but I was shocked to learn he blames Sam for the Soulless Sam period . . . okay.

I actually have no problem w/Garth, and I was actually semi-enjoying the episode unti the "big fight." Some of the stuff Dean mentioned threw me for a loop, and then Sam's big speech at the end just annoyed me.

Honestly, Sam, IMO, needs better dialogue. What's his problem w/Benny? It wasn't clear to me. He kept saying, "You had Benny" as if that was supposed to mean something. So what, Sam. I wish Dean would have responded, "Yeah, I did. You sure weren't trying to help so what the heck do you care?"

Is it possible to get some dialogue to explain Sam's beef w/Benny? Yes, Benny is a vamp, but Sam has befriended monsters before so he needs to calm down. If Sam said somethign like, " Dean, I know you trust Benny b/c he was there for you but just be careful. I trusted Ruby, and that backfired on me. I don't want you to go down the same road," or something like that. Repeatedly saying, "You had Benny" doesn't mean anything!!! At least it doesn't to me.

I know it's hard for the writers to sit down and think of dialogue for Sam, but they could try you know?
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-07 23:22
Disclaimer here, I hate Adam Glass as a writer. He's had a few okay episodes, but not many. I don't like Dabb and Laughlin either. So, I'm not in the least bit surprised that AG couldn't pull off decent dialog for Sam, especially because I think the writers have been instructed to keep Sam's story "in the background" again, because it worked SO well in season four. I'm thinking that Sam is angry not about Benny, but about the fact that Dean kept him secret. After Dean going on and on and on about how horrible Sam was to keep his relationship with Ruby secret, and still pounding on Sam about that, Sam is mad not that Dean has a vampire friend, although he doesn't like it, but because he was keeping it a big dark secret. I also think that Dean offing Amy who saved Sam's life then giving Benny a total pass AND making it clear that even if Benny does not keep his nose clean, DEAN will NOT be the one to take him out has Sam rightly pissed. There is no dialog to explain this, so I'm having to fill in the blanks AGAIN.

I think the only way I'm going to get through this season is with enormous amounts of sarcasm and a nice bottle of wine to drink during episodes. I'm also rethinking my pledge to make it through the season. They really need to fix Sam's story as of yesterday, but after the litany of Sam's mistakes (or as Dean calls them betrayals) I am more convinced than ever that Dean is going to have to chose between saving Benny from returning to Purgatory and letting Sam take his place and Sam is going to lose that decision AND Sam is going to lose and end up in Purgatory. And we are supposed to cheer because Sam is a terrible, no good brother.

Oh, Supernatural, I'm about to say goodbye, so long and thanks for all the fish.
st50
# st50 2012-11-07 23:27
... The answer is 42.
Makes about as much sense here as it did in Hitchhikers. :cry:
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-07 23:42
What do you get if you multiply six by nine?

"I always thought something was fundamentally wrong with the universe"
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-07 23:43
I like your ideas. They make sense and need to become canon ASAP. This backwards way of handling Sam's story is not working for me.

I honestly have no understanding of Sam this year. He's a main character but feels very "new" and "unexplored." Having him repeat, "You had Benny" really annoyed me. That line is NOT character exploration or character development. I'm very frustrated by their refusal to tell a simple story for Sam - one w/a beginning, middle, and end.

I guess I even have a problem w/Sam having a problem w/Dean not telling him about Benny. I don't know. They don't have to tell each other everything.
RMF
# RMF 2012-11-08 02:09
Sam has most consistenly been the one to argue for giving the monster a chance. He's also been led on and betrayed by a monster. He's even been the monster himself. But all that potential and complexity boils down to "You had Benny." Adam Glass was in way over his head with this and was the wrong choice for the followup to the Benny revelation. It also indicates that the writers don't plan to use any of the complexity that Sam's history has to offer, but instead will employ him to deliver hollow counterpoint to Dean's character evolution toward recognizing the shades of gray in monsters.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-08 07:05
Quote:
Sam has most consistenly been the one to argue for giving the monster a chance. He's also been led on and betrayed by a monster. He's even been the monster himself. But all that potential and complexity boils down to "You had Benny." Adam Glass was in way over his head with this and was the wrong choice for the followup to the Benny revelation. It also indicates that the writers don't plan to use any of the complexity that Sam's history has to offer, but instead will employ him to deliver hollow counterpoint to Dean's character evolution toward recognizing the shades of gray in monsters.
You said it all! Sam has a very interesting character history, but it's being ignored. I felt the same way when Ms. Tran was curious as to how she would feel w/o a soul, and Dean gave the lengthy answer. Why not have Sam speak up since he was actually Soulless and remembers it?

Limiting Sam's anger or whatever to Dean keeping Benny a secret actually doesn't make a lot of sense given Sam's OWN history.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-08 08:37
I think we may have to accept that the writers are completely disinterested in Sam as anything other than a plot point, a sounding board so we can hear all of Dean's thoughts and a way for Dean to have someone to blame forever.
Amy
# Amy 2012-11-08 10:13
I think the Sam Winchester we loved died in 2:21. What Dean brought back in his deal wasn't Sam. It was a plot device.

I am sort of taking your advice you gave me once, Percy. I decided to wait to and marathon S8..... I haven't watched one episode since the premiere. BUT i have read every summary, every review. (can'stay away, i geuss)

Right now I wish I could have a few words with Carver to tell him what he could do with his 'perception.' At this point i wouldn't mind if Jared got out of his contract. I'd love to see JAred on The Walking Dead.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-08 11:11
I think you may be right.
st50
# st50 2012-11-07 23:50
The beef, as I saw it......Benny was Deans deep dark secret. Sam apparently has none.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-07 23:54
If it later turns out that Sam does have a deep, dark secret, he's going to seem like a hypocrite for getting all on Dean about Benny.

If Sam has no secrets, then he should get some. Haha! I just don't see a problem w/Dean NOT telling Sam about Benny, and I'm not sure why Sam is so upset.
Karen
# Karen 2012-11-07 22:43
Hi Alice, I like this discussion setup. I thought I would put in my 2 cents worth in. It only took me 3 days. :D

Many out there still can’t believe that Sam wouldn’t look for Dean and quit hunting. Since that seems to be the creative choice do you think Sam has a good reason? Could there ever be an acceptable explanation for his actions?
I have to admit I was surprised that they (the writers) had Sam not look for Dean. It seemed like a very risky step, as I also felt this could make Sam look very bad. However I do believe we will get Sam’s story (patience is a virtue, patience is a virtue…) about this and what lead him to his decisions. I do have to say that I understand why Sam believed that Dean and possibly Castiel was dead as I too initially thought the same from the way Dick was pulsating before he exploded. I figured they either were blown to pieces or incinerated. Also Crowley had said that Dick was dead (not in purgatory), which left me thinking that Dean and Cas must be too. Of course that suspicion ended with them showing Dean being in purgatory. I do have to wonder if they had ended the season without showing us what happened to Dean and Cas, how many of us would have speculated that they were dead. It’s not like they couldn’t come back, as we have seen time after time.

What do you think of Amelia? How do you think his relationship with her soured?
I definitely didn’t like her in the first episode (what a bitch!) however I am warming up to her a bit.
No idea as to why their relationship soured. I guess if Sam was taking off periodically, needing to be alone then maybe she couldn’t deal with that. Or maybe it was her that wanted out. I guess we will have to wait and see (patience is a virtue, patience is a virtue…).

Sam wants a life that’s not by his brother’s side. What do you think will have to happen for him to change his mind?
I’m not sure what will happen but I do hope it’s not because he has been guilt into it or for vengeance. I really hope its because he really wants it, something like in Scarecrow, when Sam says “We’re all that’s left. So if we’re gonna see this through we’re gonna do it together.”

Is Dean’s relationship with Benny pushing out Sam? Will Sam force Dean to choose?
I don’t feel Benny is a threat between Sam and Dean. I think his friendship could cause fights if Sam never fully trust him. Plus there is the possibility that Benny could end up turning bad.

Is Sam depressed or still unstable mentally? Did his year away from Dean do more harm than good?
I feel Sam is definitely not right, he seem somewhat distant, a ‘Once bitten, twice shy’ kind of thing. Maybe he is fearful of loosing Dean again. Maybe between Dean dying so much and possibly Amelia ending the relationship, he just can’t allow himself to get too close.
RMF
# RMF 2012-11-08 01:47
Those of you who said "painful" had it right. So judging by Sam's closing words in this episode, we can take at face value that he really didn't look for Dean and that the half-assed explanations are supposed to be the truth. When Dean disappeared, Sam's world crashed down around him, and he "just ran."

In what goddam universe is that Sam Winchester?

Sam has his faults, but he's fierce, defiant, headstrong, and obsessive, not someone who "just runs." They have drawn a big, fat line through everything we've learned about him over the years and replaced him with a cardboard cutout that suits their plot. This is no longer a matter of just not having a good storyline, he's been dismantled.

I feel like a fool for thinking that Carver was going to be a boon for the show. He's wrecked Sam as a character and turned the relationship between the brothers into a dispiriting association of convenience. I'm writhing for poor Jared having to try to make sense out of this slop. I can't understand how the writers thought this was going to work.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-08 06:32
Right now, I'm going with the universe where Dean picks Benny over Sam and we are supposed to cheer because Sam is SO INCREDIBLY AWFUL. Because Sam can choose Ruby without any insight into why and become a pariah in fandom, but Dean must always always be right, good and true and maybe accept that lowlife brother of his as one of his burdens.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-08 07:10
I also feel bad for Jared. In interviews, you can tell he's struggling to make sense of his character's OOC actions. He can't do it.

This "Sam" is not the Sam I know or understand. I don't understand this guy at all. Maybe that's why this new Sam gravitates toward the awful Amelia. Old Sam sure wouldn't.

I think the writers are banking on no one really caring about Sam anyway so it doesn't matter how much they twist and ruin character!
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-08 08:39
Sadly I agree. The writers do not seem to care about Sam at all. They have chosen to have him behave in OOC ways and give him literally NO explanation other than he did it. There is really nothing to say.
RMF
# RMF 2012-11-08 10:24
It's as if Benny's portal didn't lead out of Purgatory at all, but into another level of Hell.
st50
# st50 2012-11-08 09:06
For me, in importance of characters, Cas is #4. Behind, Sam, Dean and the brother-bond.
They haven't done well with at least two of the first 3 - and I would personally say probably all 3 are just not right this year. So... the next 2 episodes are all about character #4. Great. Cas is back. Why? Because Garth happened to try to remind Dean that Sam is all he has left. Ergo, make sure SAM ISN'T all he has left. Kind says it right there, doesn't it?
Move along folks, nothing to see here. :-*
MelT
# MelT 2012-11-08 11:03
Wow. I thought this would be fun but it's not. Are you guys even fans anymore? You seem to hate it. :lol:

I don't believe Sam has always or ever been evil. I don't believe Dean has always or ever been a super heroic guy. I see them both as seriously flawed. More so now then ever. I'm OK with Sam not looking. Where? Angels can't look into purgatory, either can demons. I don't think it was any more cowardly then Dean trying to kill the Profits mother and lying about Benny and then killing his girlfriend! Oye. Not nice.

I thought Amelia was better in this episode. She reminds me of Dean. Heavy drinker that doesn't want to face anything.

I do think there almost to point where they need to seperate though. Dean can go off with Benny, although I fear where that will lead for him.

(YAY next week.)
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-08 11:10
I have compared Amelia to Dean before and I am liking her better. I am however hating the fact that we are being given nothing on Sam. We have seen what happened to Dean, but not really to Sam. We have heard Dean's complaints about Sam. But why Sam decided he wants out or what his mental state was when he didn't look for Dean. We are getting the sympathetic view for Dean and nothing for Sam and I'm at the end of my rope.
MelT
# MelT 2012-11-08 11:24
Quote:
. We are getting the sympathetic view for Dean and nothing for Sam and I'm at the end of my rope.
I just don't find Dean at all sympathetic. I see him as off the rails violent. The interrogation, Kevin's Mother, Benny's grilfriend. I think that's the difference for me. I think Dean is totally messed up and not in a good way by Purgatory.

I do like the idea that Sam's on meds. He should be. I would be. Would that be enough for Dean to forgive? He's not as forgiving as he was a year ago. They've both changed - neither really towards healthy.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-11-08 11:19
With a certain person returning next week and Benny still being around I am not expecting alot. The Purgatory trio will get their focus.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-08 13:44
I hope Sam is not all trusting with that certain person and they show how Cas's actions have affected Sam....and how he acts with Cas because of it
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-08 15:29
Sam pretty mch forgave Castiel last year so I doubt he'll have any problems with him.

Actually, this might be an opportunity to actually allow Sam and Cas to bond now that Dean has Benny. I've never seen Sam and Cas as "brothers" or "family," but maybe they can have a relationship this year that's based on them, not Dean!
st50
# st50 2012-11-08 20:38
WOW is the Sam hate coming out on some of the other sites. Do you think Carver really understands what he's doing to this character? Poor JP.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-08 20:58
I'm not surprised at the Sam hate on other sites. I fully expected it. I don't know if Carver knows or even if he cares. He certainly had to be aware that there a many Sam haters out there and that this approach to how Sam behaved could only make things worse. I'm extremely discouraged.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-08 22:00
Sadly, that's not surprising. Sam, for the time being, has been effectively thrown under the bus. He's coming off selfish, cowardly, and petty. I'm calling him NewSam b/c I don't understand him or know this guy as Sam.

If you already disliked and/or hated Sam, all Carver did was give you more ammunition to hate him. I'm still waiting for some explanation as to how his world "imploded." It would have been nice to get some POV about five episodes ago, but whatever.

I think Percy and some other posters may be right in thinking the writers want us to dislike Sam b/c after this episode, I honestly don't think I'd care if he left to go be w/Amelia. I mean, I would no longer watch the show, but it wouldn't devastate me or anything if an episode involved Sam's death or Sam leaving. Sam leads a fairly miserable life w/no happiness or joy. If he died, I could at least think his soul was at peace in Heaven hopefully. As far as the show is concerned, IMO, the brother bond is dead and may be resusciated too late for me to care. I don't know why the boys continue to hang out together at this point.

Carver is ruining the show for me. I didn't feel like the brothers were "close" last year, but I never felt like they disliked each other like I do this year. I know some found their argument mature, but it was the furtherest thing from mature that I could imagine. Dean being secretive and passive aggressive. Sam being whiny and petty. That's not mature to me.
digyd
# digyd 2012-11-08 21:08
I am so glad this is here. I was unwilling to analyze anything based strictly on spoilers or 1 or 2 episodes. But now that we've had 6, I have started thinking harder and I am up for some of this, yet reluctant because overall I am a happy camper and I don't want anything to ruin that. I can't possibly read all these comments in one sitting, so I am going to just dive in with my thoughts then read.

I could easily respond to the plethora of questions Alice asked, but - aside from saying no matter what they do, I do NOT like Amelia - probably the only thing I am focused on is Sam not explaining why he didn't search for Dean.

Most folk were mad about that from the get go. Understandable, but I didn't think it fair to say it was OOC off the bat. Thought about it a lot and I am curious to read the other comments here to see if anyone else thinks like I do right now. I am thinking, after watching Southern Comfort, that for sure there is more to this story than Sam is willing to let on right now. Sam and Dean know themselves. They know their own history. We know a lot of things because we saw it and we know a lot of things because we inferred them from what we saw. Surely they know their own situations better than we, the fans looking in, do. And when Dean disappeared we knew he wasn't dead. Maybe we didn't know where he was. Maybe we were stunned. But I KNEW the man wasn't dead. And if I knew that, there is no way Sam didn't know that too. So while it seemed OOC for Sam not to look for Dean because he has always gone out of his way to help his brother, I think all this shows is that Sam is conflicted and Sam has ALWAYS been conflicted. The bigger thing here is Sam ran away and that is probably quintessential Sam. I mean when the going gets tough, Sam gets going every single time. Yeah, yeah he left because he needs to think. Or calm down. Or live his life. But he's a runner and when Dean disappeared, Sam ran - again.

I for one am looking forward to the next episode. I am looking forward to seeing them say a lot more about what they are really thinking. I think Sam told Amelia a lot more than he is telling Dean right now. I am hoping the truth of the situation comes out there.
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-11-08 21:19
I think that's actually not the impression that canon gives of Sam as a runner. Yes, Sam takes off, but he doesn't run AWAY when the going gets tough. When he takes off, it's goal-focused most of the time -- he runs to accomplish something. Forging an identity for himself at Stanford; following up John and the demon in Scarecrow (do you really think he took off then because the hunt was too tough for him?), pursuing what was going on with the psychic kids in Hunted (at that point, Dean wanted to take some time off and maybe go to the Grand Canyon -- that's hardly the going getting tough). He took time to grapple with his addiction after 5.2, but again, that was to deal with something, at a time when he recognized that it was dangerous for him to hunt. In s7 he took off to deal with Amy -- again, not running away from something, but running to something he felt he needed to deal with -- and he took off to process his anger after Slash Fiction. Running away to avoid a situation rather than to pursue a goal is very atypical of Sam: we almost never see Sam without a sense of purpose, for good and ill. He's come to the end of the road and given up a couple of times (in the flashbacks of 4.9, in 7.17), but I don't think we've ever seen Sam simply aimless, as he seems to have been in the driving around stage.

Not to say that that's not a possible form reaching his breaking point could take, but it's a new departure in his reactions. Sam is usually goal-oriented, sometimes in frightening ways; it's interesting that through this sudden collapse into complete goallessness he seems to have emerged with a new, more settled sense of choice and possibility.
digyd
# digyd 2012-11-09 10:15
Quote:
following up John and the demon in Scarecrow (do you really think he took off then because the hunt was too tough for him?),
No. I don't. There was a discussion about that and he and Dean chose to go opposite ways. The running I am talking about is the leave-your-brot her-in-the-midd le-of-the-night -for-a-week-or- so type running so that Dean has to call Ellen to ask if she knows where he is. That is the type of running I mean and he takes off without the knowledge of those around him just as much as with. Good cause? Maybe. Fair to those left in the dark? I don't see it that way. Does it therefore make him conflicted? In my eyes, yes. It's a conflict when you can't say what you really want to due to whatever issues you have going on in your family or wherever. And does it make him misunderstood byt those same folk? Most likely. Part - not all - of the blame goes to the one who doesn't want to explain.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-08 21:53
I agree with etheldred. Exactly, I can not think of a time when Sam has run away when Dean needed help. He faced his cage memories to make sure Dean wasn't alone. He faced down Lucifer and jumped into the cage to make reparations. He tried to face his actions while soulless and only gave up because the wall really did start to crack, bu the was willing to take that chance to make amends for his soulless behavior.

Sam retreats to get his head in order, something I understand because that is how I function. Now I don't physically leave because I have a 2 bedroom apartment and I can get away from whoever I am angry with or just to think without leaving the house. But Sam and Dean live together 24/7 365 days a year in a car and motel rooms. They are tripping over each other. So Sam needs to get away to think. We introverts are like that. But he does NOT run when the going gets tough.

Also, Sam hasn't been conflicted in YEARS. He totally accepted that he was a hunter for life. The only time he even tried to leave before was when he was recovering from his DB addiction and was DANGEROUS on a hunt.

This group of writers has decided to reset Sam to a state he hasn't been in years. I am deeply troubled by this decision and I don't understand it.
digyd
# digyd 2012-11-09 10:22
Quote:
I agree with etheldred. Exactly, I can not think of a time when Sam has run away when Dean needed help.
I am not saying he runs away when Dean needs help. At least he doesn't do that intentionally. But he does often run when things get tough. As I said, it maybe to clear his head but...yadda yadda yadda. I won't bore you by repeating that part again. I know you got that already. But I don't believe he's been conflict free all this time. The conflict can come from having to figure out how to deal with your family, namely a brother who won't or can't let go. I may be choosing to be simplistic about this, but a person doesn't literally go through hell and back and crack up mentally and not have some lingering effects that most likely will never go away. He handles it well, that's for sure. But I don't see him as conflict free.
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-11-09 10:41
digyd, can you give us a single canon instance where Sam runs when things get tough? Because there are a pretty limited number of times in canon that Sam walks away from Dean, and NONE of them to me fit the model of running when things get tough. So some of us actually don't get that, because it's just not what we've seen in canon.

Evasion is actually more a Dean thing than a Sam thing. Not in the physical sense, but Dean is usually the one who wants to avoid an issue rather than thrash it out, or who responds to overwhelming stress with paralysis, as in 7.1. In fact, in Hunted, it was Dean who had been wanting to evade the issue of Sam's destiny, just take off for the Grand Canyon. Sam left then not to evade the issue, but to tackle and issue Dean didn't want to tackle.
digyd
# digyd 2012-11-09 11:18
Quote:
digyd, can you give us a single canon instance where Sam runs when things get tough?
I think the part of the difference in understanding is the "things get tough" part. When I say that, it doesn't mean he's scared or won't fight or whatever. But I do think he's not dealing with whatever is in front of him, due to anger or whatever. Just last season he did that on the pier after finding out Dean killed Amy. Of course that's not an example of leaving and Dean not knowing where he is, like he did when he was a kid and ran off to where? Phoenix? Tuscon? Wherever in DSOTM. But to me, that is still running.

I think I'm generally chill on this whole thing, but if I am accused of making up my own facts, then so be it. I've seen plenty of people here refusing to budge on things that looked so clear to me (even if I didn't say so) and this is one of those times I choose to do that because not dealing with your issues is running to me.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-09 16:06
I don't think anyone is accusing you of making up facts; I just think some of us have a different idea of "running away" than you. I guess I don't personally view needing time to process something as "running away."

The main thing most of us are saying is it is NOT in character for Sam to leave Dean in the lurch like this. Every single time Dean has needed help, Sam has been there. It makes no sense that he would suddenly just drive around aimlessly for months when he could have spent some time researching what happened to Dean. This storyline is impossible for me to swallow.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-08 22:22
I agree w/Etheldred. I don't see Sam as "running away" from his problems. It has been termed that on the show, but I've never viewed him as "running away."

I honestly think he wanted to go to college. He didn't want to hunt for the rest of his life. He wasn't denying his destiny. He was choosing his own path. If John hadn't told him to never return, I'm sure Sam would have returned. He didn't want to abandon his family. He just wanted to go to school.

I can't recall a single time Sam "ran away" from a problem. Sam may go off to think or to do something he wants, but he doesn't really run away from problems, IMO. He usually sticks around and resolves problems.

That's why I don't, or can't, understand his actions after Dean disappeared. It is completely OOC, IMO, for Sam to drive around aimlessly for months until he hit a dog and met Amelia. They need to explain how Sam got to that point. Mental breakdown? Curse? Spell? Something . . . . I need something.
digyd
# digyd 2012-11-09 10:30
Quote:
That's why I don't, or can't, understand his actions after Dean disappeared. It is completely OOC, IMO, for Sam to drive around aimlessly for months until he hit a dog and met Amelia. They need to explain how Sam got to that point. Mental breakdown? Curse? Spell? Something . . . . I need something.
I won't repeat my running away explanation because I'm sure you already read that all over the place and I won't torture you by repeating it. :-) However the OOC part is what I don't buy. I think this is a new situation in the sense of dang it, "Your whole world has just imploded and there isn't a SOUL left you feel you can call on! What are ya gonna do?!" He didn't go to Disney World, but he sure as heck didn't jump into the fray and say, "Let's figure out where Dean is!" Naw. He ran. Pure and simple, and I don't blame him because he probably needed to in order to keep what was left of his sanity. It all became too much for him at last. Even Sam can't keep bearing the weight of all this on those big, beautiful, broad shoulders of his. My focus, though, wasn't on this allegedly OOC act of his, but more on the thought that he HAD to have thought, "Dean being dead? Not that simple." I don't buy that he thought he was dead and that's it. That may be the story they are selling and fine I will keep saying no way while they keep trying to make me eat that. But if I as the outside viewer thought that, Sam had to have at least wondered what ELSE could have happened besides death. He may have thought there was no way to figure it out. No one to ask. I don't know. But I think the key is that angry chick Amelia (I just don't like her). I am awaiting that flashback of them talking about Dean and Don. That is where I think his true motivations were revealed because we know he's not one to spill it with Dean. Not easily. His explanation is a cop-out to me and since they keep bringing it up, I don't think I'm off base.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-09 16:11
So, you don't believe he would just walk away from this situation? I'm confused. You say he just ran, but then say he had to think something other than death occurred w/Dean. At least consider the possibility that something else happened w/him.

Because if you don't think Sam wouldn't have at least considered the possibility that Dean didn't die, then wouldn't you agree he is behaving OOC?

Not trying to start a fight BTW. I'm just genuinely trying to understand your position :-)
digyd
# digyd 2012-11-08 23:38
I want to rewatch the last two episodes right now, so I will have to come back to this tomorrow. But I will say that in my original post I wrote that Sam may be running to do something. I get that. But for the person left behind - often Dean, also their father - there is no knowing that in the moment. Fight with dad, leave home - a few times. Fight with Dean, walk away. No clue what the deal is with Amelia, but last I checked he left her in the middle of the night. Yeah, I know it was for college or to find himself or to go to the cabin where he may or may not have known Dean was waiting (I say not). But the thing is usually he doesn't say where he is going. I already said I know there is more to it, but I still think the man is a conflicted runner, or rather he runs because of it to go figure things out or whatever. Running is running. Can't expect the person left behind to know the point if you don't share it.
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-11-09 10:30
When Sam went to Stanford, it was absolutely clear where he was going and why. John wasn't left behind unaware by a runaway Sam: he kicked Sam out, made it a choice between college and his family. And, as we've already pointed out, many of the instances of Sam leaving Dean didn't follow the pattern of fight with Dean and go deal with his anger. When it did, in Slash Fiction, Dean knew that was exactly what Sam was doing, and why. Again in 5.2, Dean knew that Sam was leaving and knew his reasons and even agreed with him. In Scarecrow, they disagreed openly about what course to follow, and Sam walked away openly to follow that course. No mystery about it. The only two instances that meet your model of Sam leaving in the night are Hunted and Girl Next Door, and neither of those were a case of Sam walking away from the emotional situation of a fight. They were extremely explicit task pursuits: deal with a hunt he felt was on him in Amy's case, deal with a mystery that concerned him in Hunted. Neither of those fit a pattern of escape from something emotional that could in any way apply to what happened after 7.23, so offering them as precedent for Sam running from the implosion of his life doesn't really work.

As for Sam leaving Amelia, there's no point discussing the situation until we know what happens.

SPOILERS

Jared has said that we do find out, that there's a good reason why Sam and Amelia parted ways. It sounded from what he said that it was a parting by mutual consent, so I'm not sure sneaking out was really what was going on in that scene. We have been definitely told that he did NOT know Dean was at the cabin, so that's as close to canon as anything can be that's not explicitly been stated on screen.

/SPOILERS

If you look closely at what actually happened in canon, in other words, "running is running" turns out to be simply not true.
digyd
# digyd 2012-11-09 10:50
Thank you for setting apart the spoilers. Had to cover them while reading this.

I hear you and I just don't agree. Every time I see it, I say to myself, "There he goes again." In some cases I think, "Stay and deal with it already!" Actually, I say that to both of them. But as they say, I agree to disagree. :-)
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-11-09 11:00
But, I'm sorry, some of this is a matter of what we absolutely know from canon. Sam did not sneak off in the night to Stanford leaving John unaware. We know this. There was a major, open fight, and it was John who told Sam to never come back if he walked out that door.

Likewise with Slash Fiction and Scarecrow and 5.2. You simply can't claim that Sam ran off in secret leaving Dean unaware of his reasons. That's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of aired footage.

With Hunted and Girl Next Door, OK. To me both of those were about Sam's need to do something, rather than evasion of something going on in the situation he was leaving, but he did evade open conflict by sneaking out. I don't think that's the same as running for escape, motivated by the need to get away from a situation, but on that we can agree to differ. But even in your interpretation, that's a very different situation from Sam running after 7.23.

We can all have our own interpretations , but we can't all have our own facts.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-09 16:24
Again, it is unclear to me what you mean. Are you saying Sam avoids conflict by running away?

I think there have been times where Sam has left in order to avoid conflict (Amy drama, Hunted), but I guess I just wouldn't term that "running away." When people say Sam runs away, I feel like they're saying he runs away from his problems. I just can't agree that that's how he's been presented. . . . at least that's not how I've seen him.

I understood why Sam left in Hunted. He wanted to investigate their father's orders and Dean didn't. He left to do it on his own. Dean pretty much knew where Sam had gone and why. In TGND, Sam left to avoid conflict. Plain and simple. I think he knew Dean wouldn't want him going so he left w/o telling Dean to avoid the argument.

We can agree to disagree b/c I wouldn't characterize Sam as a "runner." That's why I can't buy this storyline for him. He would have stuck around and investigated Dean's disappearance. Nothing I've seen over the years says he wouldn't.
digyd
# digyd 2012-11-09 10:08
One last thing (now that I am on a regular computer and not fighting my phone, and now that I am fully awake.)

"I felt like my world imploded. I ran."

His words - albeit mine too. :-)
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-11-09 11:00
I suppose it depends on what you define has running in Hunted he needed to confront something that was very personal to him just after Dean revealed the secret so if people see Sam leaving Dean who wanted to run to the Grand Canyon and lay low as running then they will define it that way.

I thought he was right and gutsy to seek out what his destiny was the same in Scarecrow. Sam is someone who wants to deal with things head on not lay low or hide away.


I think this is why people think his actions have been OCC I dont actually have a problem with 'I ran' because his world imploded what the issue is we havent seen very much of that and the whole thing is becoming abit messy esp after the words in this episode.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-11-09 12:00
I actually loved this episode despite the Sam/Amelia scenes which are like something out of a Danielle Steele novel. I've never liked Danielle Steele.

I like that they ripped the scab off all these old festering wounds and if I read that last scene by the car right they are not done- so YAY! (They better not be done-you can't resolve years long problems that quickly, especially when one doesn't really remember the fight)

They did have Sam stand up for himself but in absolutely the worse way. Benny is really the ONLY resentment or problem he has with Dean and is stupid enough to egg a possessed Dean on with it? And he told Garth to get out of the way. Thus absolutely insuring his own death, since Dean was stronger and had a gun.

I am beginning to believe they really do want us angry with Sam, because he has several things he could have brought to the table in argument but none were. Such as:

1.Dean is bossy. When Dean says to do something they automatically do it. When Dean thinks something is right he overrides Sam’s decision (ie Amy).

2.Dean holds everything Sam ever did against him, despite the fact that Sam was punished for 180 years in the cage for whatever sins he committed.

3.Dean is holding the actions of Sam when he was soulless against him, despite the fact that it really wasn’t him. He was in the cage still being tortured. On top the fact the Sam has never been shown to hold Dean’s torturing in hell and breaking the first seal against him.

4.Dean holds things against him that weren’t even mistakes. Such as leaving for college and now wanting to quit hunting. Even though Sam insisted Dean go and find a life outside hunting, before he went into the cage.

5.Dean threw away the amulet Sam gave him because he was hurt by Sam’s heaven, even though he had no control over that. And that was only weeks before Sam went into the cage to be tortured.

6. The fact that Dean has called him a monster and meant it. And told him he didn't believe in him and now that Benny was a better brother than Sam has ever been. Despite the fact, that Benny only had Dean's back for a year. Sam has had it countless times over a lifetime. Many in war like and battle situations.

I'm not bringing these up to beat up on Dean who I adored. I'm bringing them up to point out Sam has things he could say to defend themselves or just to balance the weight of the mistakes. But he hasn't used any of them and neither has the show.

We've been told he ran, that he didn't look for Dean and the he settled down and got a woman and a dog. I guess we learned last night why he'd been drawn to THAT woman, who is by far the least appealing of love interests they've ever had on the show. And we heard him say his world imploded. But we been shown absolutely no evidence of this.

Every flashback, with the exception of when he hit the dog, he's been fine. Maybe a little sad, but fine. Certainly not someone whose world imploded. Even after sex, he looked like he barely had broken a sweat and his shirt was even still on (which is just sad- at least when he was soulless we got that shirtless workout to counter the dickishness). And we know Sam has a tendency to be an animal in bed.

Kind of the same with present Sam (except no sex). He's mostly just fine. He didn't seemed overwhelmed by Dean return and relief at finding him alive. He seemed fine. When Dean confronted him with Kevin's messages he seemed fine. And so on.

With the noticeable exceptions, of Dean in the nest with the vampires, a few arguments and now this out and out fight, Sam has been fine. Which is not an endearing characteristic.

So for some reason I think they are setting him up to look unsympathetic. I don't believe that they are writing him off the show, lessening his role or that Jared has just suddenly forgotten how to play Sam when he managed to make him sympathetic while drinking demon blood. So I HAVE to believe there is still a purpose to this. The hell if I can figure out what though.

So if anyone has any suggestions that don't include one of the above three and would really like to hear them.
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-11-09 12:23
I liked st50's read on where Sam was coming from pressing the Benny point at the end, in their comment on Sofia's review:


Quote:
As far as Sams actions in leaving Dean- I see no explanation. I'll leave it at that, because it's been done.
As far as the quotes about Benny at the end... I took it in an entirely different way, and I really think Sam was right in asking, and the fact that Dean didn't answer is incredibly sad!
I think what Sam was saying was that,
1) Sam's with Dean as a hunter right now - as Dean wanted
2) Dean feels Benny is a better brother
3) If hunter Sam has to kill Benny, then the first brother ends up killing the 'better brother'
Sam really wants to know What happens between us, Dean, if I kill your favourite brother?

Dean's answer? We'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

OUCH!
But I also think there may be a simpler reason why that was what Sam focused on: that was an argument they were already having, outside of the possession. That was something Dean remembered. It's harder for Sam to bring up the stuff about Benny being a better brother, Dean holding everything he's done against him, etc., because Dean doesn't remember that he said those things. Likewise with Sam bringing up the way Dean's been riding him since Dean got back: it's a legitimate issue, but it's also one that's part of their interactions that Dean is as aware of as Sam.

Mind, I think it would be much fairer and better for Sam to simply tell Dean what Dean said, but I can see how he might be too hurt and angry to quite be able to, at least right away. In a way he's evading the issue by focusing on the things that don't strike at his foundations that much.

But I absolutely agree that they need to give Sam more onscreen chance to show and explore the fact that he's hurting. Both that he's hurt by what Dean said, and that he was damaged by Dean's disappearance, and, depending on what's up with him and Amelia splitting up, maybe also hurting now because of whatever went down in that relationship. I find it eternally baffling that Sam's emotional reactions are treated so curtly, while Dean's are dealt with more expansively. It's not necessarily a difference in which is right or sympathetic, but it does make Sam harder to access. I think it's partly that Sam just is, as a character in the later seasons, more shut down and guarded and less emotionally open than Dean, that part of his coping is by underreacting to things, but I do think that part of it is plain narrative neglect.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-11-09 12:39
I totally buy that as the reason that Sam didn't bring them up after. I can see him being too hurt to deal with it. It is pretty harsh when you think about it. From Sam's POV, he believes he paid the price for his mistakes by sacrificing himself to being tortured for 180 years, but to find out the brother whose opinion he bases his own self worth on, still holds it against him deep down is heartbreaking. It would have to seem like if that isn't enough then what is. And that he also holds SS against him as well.

But that wasn't exactly what I meant. Why is the show making a decision not to have him defend himself and setting him up to look bad? To me plotwise there has to be a reason.

And why did Sam bring up Benny in the middle of the fight. He seemed to be egging Dean on, like he wanted Dean to kill him.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-09 16:35
Dean said some pretty harsh things to Sam, but I have no idea if Sam was hurt by them. I would think he was hurt just as Dean was hurt by Sam's words in S&V but who knows? The show didn't spend any time w/Sam. The focus really wasn't on him. IIRC, the camera didn't even cut to his face when Dean made those harsh comments, so we didn't see if Sam was hurt by them or not. Sam has been pretty emotionless all season. I don't know what's going on w/him.

Instead of that horrible FB w/the awful Amelia, why not show Garth talking to Sam or Sam and Dean having a real talk. I know many liked Sam's last scene but I didn't. I didn't understand the reference to Benny. It made Sam seem petty and jealous, IMO.

The brothers (and their bond) are really being ruined this year for me.
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-11-09 16:51
Canon is strangely reluctant to explore Sam being hurt by Dean. Angry, yes, sometimes very justifiably angry, but they seldom dwell on any hurt Sam feels. With Amy, for instance, Sam was angry with Dean for lying and going behind his back and killing his friend, but if he was hurt by Dean saying he trusted him and then acting the opposite he never showed it.

My fanwank is that Sam learned young, in his dealings with John, to transmute hurt into anger and purpose. Plus Sam in canon time underwent a degree of general emotional shut down, quite precisely located at Dean's death in 3.16, though we'd already seen him respond that way in Mystery Spot. We haven't seen Sam weep since the end of s3, or even laugh out loud -- in eps like Plucky's, Dean laughs, Sam smiles. I was hoping that one of the things that the Amelia arc would do would be to help Sam get back to a more human accessing and expression of emotions than this tamped down, occasionally explosive Sam. But it doesn't seem to be happening.
st50
# st50 2012-11-09 16:56
Quote:

We haven't seen Sam weep since the end of s3, or even laugh out loud -- in eps like Plucky's, Dean laughs, Sam smiles.
Wow. Has it been so long? He gets teary-eyed so often, I guess I hadn't noticed. :P
I'd really like to see them have a good, deep belly-laugh, the both of them!
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-11-09 17:32
I swear to God I was just trying to figure that out last night. I even went through the episode list to see if I could figure out the last time. And I'm almost positive it WAS when Dean died.

You're right he gets glassy eyed, especially in S5 but he never really cries. We haven't seen the OPT since SS either though, have we? I haven't double checked that.

We have seen Dean laugh though, but not often.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-09 18:10
I wonder why that is though. Sam's pain - if he has any - is just as interesting to me as Dean's pain.

I also agree about Sam suddenly becoming mum and shutting down emotionally on the show. I think the reason so many fanfics have Sam emoting all over the place or being the more talkative one is b/c that's how Sam started on the show. He was the one always willing to talk things out. I guess he still likes to "talk it out," but he's not every expressive of his own feelings. We get snippets here and there, but it is never drawn out or carried out over several episodes.
st50
# st50 2012-11-09 18:29
Quote:
I wonder why that is though. Sam's pain - if he has any - is just as interesting to me as Dean's pain.

I also agree about Sam suddenly becoming mum and shutting down emotionally on the show. I think the reason so many fanfics have Sam emoting all over the place or being the more talkative one is b/c that's how Sam started on the show. He was the one always willing to talk things out. I guess he still likes to "talk it out," but he's not every expressive of his own feelings. We get snippets here and there, but it is never drawn out or carried out over several episodes.
Guaranteed he has pain. He USED to be able to show it!

Maybe he is on antidepressants , antipsychotics, or something like that. JP does emotion so well, usually, you'd think they'd write it for him, wouldn't you?
st50
# st50 2012-11-09 16:48
Quote:

It's harder for Sam to bring up the stuff about Benny being a better brother, Dean holding everything he's done against him, etc., because Dean doesn't remember that he said those things.
I'd really like to know for sure what Dean does remember. Jeffrey remembered a fair bit of what he did when possessed (and he fell in love with his demon. blech!)
Sam only vaguely remembered the stuff he was 'allowed to' after he was possessed by Meg, so I guess it's entirely possible that Dean doesn't remember. But I doubt he's entirely blank, either. Somehow, I think he knows a lot of what he said (now why would I believe he'd lie to Sam, eh? :-? ) and is somewhat ashamed, maybe? Otherwise, what was the point. He can't move forward, it simply serves to hurt Sam.

Quote:

I find it eternally baffling that Sam's emotional reactions are treated so curtly, while Dean's are dealt with more expansively.
yes. Seems like, unless they can give JP a chance to use the bitch-face, the puppy-eyes, or tear up, they don't know how to deal with Sam's emotions! He's a complicated guy, even Bobby said something to that effect directly to him, so why not explain some of that to the audience?!?!?
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-09 17:02
Quote:
vI'd really like to know for sure what Dean does remember.
When questioning the widow she stated that she remembered smells and a few sounds and feeling angry but not really why and when they showed the name Alcott to her, she had to search her memory for a moment to come up with who it was. When Dean was talking to Sam at the car, he said I don't really remember what I said in there. Since I don't think Dean would out and out lie, I think he really doesn't remember any of what he said. But Sam knows he believes it, even if Dean doesn't remember. Frankly if I had a brother who was becoming increasingly violent from PTSD and who had just expressed the fact that he still hasn't forgiven my for not jumping back into hunting as soon as he showed up or forgiven anything he felt slighted on, I would be packing up and running hard, because those feelings are there and Dean is being less and less restrained in his actions. At some point Sam has a right to live a life without being constantly belittled.
st50
# st50 2012-11-09 17:05
Quote:

When questioning the widow she stated that she remembered smells and a few sounds and feeling angry but not really why and when they showed the name Alcott to her, she had to search her memory for a moment to come up with who it was.
Yes, but we also saw her clench her fist and pull on the cuffs almost immediately. So was she searching her memory, or stealing herself.... Yes, I know. Clutching at straws here.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-09 13:25
Quote:
They did have Sam stand up for himself but in absolutely the worse way. Benny is really the ONLY resentment or problem he has with Dean and is stupid enough to egg a possessed Dean on with it? And he told Garth to get out of the way. Thus absolutely insuring his own death, since Dean was stronger and had a gun.
I actually thought that Sam had reached a point where if he couldn't convince Dean that he hadn't betrayed him then he wanted Dean to kill him. I don't think Sam would "abandon" Dean by outright committing suicide, but Sam heard the altered VM that said that Dean wanted him dead, that Dean now has a better brother. I think finding out that all his sacrifice to try and make up for his mistake in trusting Ruby (who just like Benny worked for a year being trustworthy and supportive) will never be forgiven by Dean has broken Sam in ways that we will never see because the writers could not care less about showing us Sam's pain.

A poster at LiveJournal, who is very into costuming as indicative of mindset and directorial intention, pointed out that once the cause of the spectre was pinpointed as being brothers on different sides of the Civil War, Sam was dressed in gray for the rest of the episode and Dean in blue. Add to that the fact that Dean was wearing a blue jacket and Sam was wearing a gray jacket when Dean torched the bones and said "We won" and I think that the show has no intention of redeeming Sam.
st50
# st50 2012-11-09 13:33
Quote:

...I think finding out that all his sacrifice to try and make up for his mistake in trusting Ruby (who just like Benny worked for a year being trustworthy and supportive) will never be forgiven by Dean has broken Sam in ways that we will never see ....

A poster at LiveJournal, who is very into costuming as indicative of mindset and directorial intention, pointed out that once the cause of the spectre was pinpointed as being brothers on different sides of the Civil War, Sam was dressed in gray for the rest of the episode and Dean in blue. Add to that the fact that Dean was wearing a blue jacket and Sam was wearing a gray jacket when Dean torched the bones and said "We won" and I think that the show has no intention of redeeming Sam.
I agree that this fight HAS to have broken Sam, and I wouldn't have doubted for an instant that he hoped Dean would shoot.

OMG. I hadn't noticed that (the costuming) That is SO sad. And subliminal messages work, so it seems they are indeed working on sending the 'bad Sam' message to the viewers - and therefore their own fandom. :cry:


HOW could they ever redeem Sam from this? Even if they intended to?
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-11-09 13:35
I agree with both your observations (that's pretty cool about the clothes, I didn't notice that), but not with your conclusion. If the show wanted to make him Bad Sam with no redemption, I think they would do it more blatantly. Right now they are just walking this unsympathetic line. Plus, just turning him into a thoroughly unlikely unsympathetic character permanently has no value for the show, unless they are writing him off. Which I just don't believe. I think they would end up losing BOTH their leads, plus the largest portion of their viewers. So I can't buy that as an end game.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-09 13:47
Just go back to Kripke's original idea. Sam becomes the Big Bad. Dean realizes he has to kill him. Only now we can root for it because Sam has been trashed beyond repair AND lucky Dean now has a better brother to hunt with. Carver can get 2 more season out of that and go out with a Sam was evil forever and ever and ever since the day he was born edit.

I have no more faith.
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-11-09 13:57
Honestly, I'm just as annoyed if they are giving us Bad Sam with redemption. Sam's original darkside arc was elaborately set up, both in the mythology and in Sam's psychology. This current situation comes completely out of nowhere: there's nothing whatsoever in s7 to set it up. Plus, by having Dean put every bad thing Sam has ever done back in play, they're making it seem like none of Sam's growth and change and atonement since s4 counts.

Honestly, in s6 and s7 Dean seemed to be on the darker arc. It would have made a lot more sense for purgatory to have enhanced that tendency, and if this season were about Dean almost losing and then recovering his humanity. Having Sam be the bad guy here just feels like they've decided he should be because he's Sam. I can't connect the bad thing he's done with any of his established flaws and weaknesses, or make it character driven at all. It feels like it was just put there to make Sam in the wrong.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-09 14:10
I'm probably repeating myself here, but I really do believe they intend for Dean to do something that would be unforgivable so they are making Sam the bad brother so that everyone can say he deserves it because he didn't look for Dean and moved on with his life. The show has been very ready to play with Bad Sam needs redemption. Dean is a more popular character across fandom and needs a built in escape hatch for any bad behavior (he's depressed, he has abandonment issues, etc.) while Sam has not been give a similar escape hatch.
st50
# st50 2012-11-09 14:48
At the beginning of the episode, Sam's wearing a blue shirt and Dean's got a grey tie.
Maybe they're just playing with us - who's good/who's bad?
st50
# st50 2012-11-09 15:36
OK The costume thing is totally not working for me.... (rewatching the episode)
First FBIs - Sam blue suit, Dean grey suit.
Checking out the coffin - Sam - blue shirt, grey jacket. Dean - grey shirt, blue jacket...
etc.... They go back and forth....
Seems like that's a dead end to me. The costume people are just playing with the grey/blue theme and the fact that both guys have played good and bad roles over the years. Nothing is black and white (sorry to add another couple of colours in here. :P )
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-09 15:45
Factoid directly from JP. He said at a con that the costumers dress them deliberately in different colours so if one is wearing blue the other would be wearing a different colour (like grey). That is all it is. It was in response to someone asking about why Sam wears that white and red patterned shirt that you see occasionally (she didn't like it).

I wish he would wear flannel shirts less often though. They don't really suit him (I was going to say 'wear less flannel' but I can see how that might be misinterpreted...)

I haven't watched all the convention stuff that is on Youtube, noooo.....
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-11-09 14:08
Can I ask which LJ poster, if it's public and not f-locked?

I do find that depressing about the costuming. I don't think Sam has been aligned with Evil and Dean with Good through the show -- the show did an enormous amount to subvert the "heaven = good" idea (angels, in Spn, are not the good guys, and Michael certainly wasn't), and it ended with Lucifer's vessel playing the redemptive savior role. But I do wish that they wouldn't symbolically align Sam with the wrong side now that his cosmic role and the subversion of it are over.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-09 14:22
http://caffienekitty.livejournal.com/

Her fannish stuff in unlocked. She is violently spoilerphobic, avoiding all promos and even blocking out guest star names when the credits roll.
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-11-09 14:27
Thank you!
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-11-09 13:55
But why walk that line at all? it wasnt Sam's fault Dean ended up in Purgatory what exactly was the original intention? .They wanted to create a bond with a character in Purgatory ok there is nothing wrong in that but does Dean's relationship with Benny really need Sam to be written this way? .

Sam is now in a position where somebody he barely knows is being thrown in his face .He wasnt there he couldnt fight by Dean's side and Dean wasnt topside he knows no more about Sam except he found a girl and quit hunting but because the writers didnt have him look for Dean everything gets thrown at him bar the kitchen sink in one horrendous scene because Dean is legitmately hurt by Sam not looking.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-11-09 14:14
Quote:
does Dean's relationship with Benny really need Sam to be written this way? .
That's my point it doesn't, so where are they going with this? It keeps seeming really deliberate, Sam is taking a bit of a hit every episode almost (although I have to admit Dean looked just as bad, if not worse in that fight). I believe that it is with purpose, I'm just trying to figure out the end game here.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-09 16:49
My other problem w/this story is there is not enough from Sam re: how his world imploded or how he felt after Dean disappeared to support the story. If this IS the story, then it's not even being told well. It surely isn't sympathetic to a main character so what's going on?

Sam says his "world imploded" but from the FBs, he seems perfectly fine. His reunion w/Dean was lackluster and unemotional. And if Sam did search for Dean, why allow Dean to think the worst of him? Why allow Dean to think he doesn't care enough to search for Dean? Why not argue how you felt after Dean disappeared? Why just stand there in silence?

This story is simply not working for me, and it's taking too long! We're almost at the mid-season point, and I know nothing about Sam's life. His time w/Amelia is nothing to talk about, IMO.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-11-09 14:05
It's been a while since I read any of Kripke possible outcomes, but I got the impression, even then that Sam was going to be walking a darker path than we got, not be totally nonredeemable.

But regardless that is a completely different situation than the plot we have going here. Sam of S4, was doing really bad things, but they were super cool. So even if they had taken he down a much darker path, he could have remained a lead because he would have been working the opposite side. But would still been thoroughly watchable.

This Sam has not done anything bad to the greater world at large. If he were on any other show his actions would be completely understandable and acceptable. He "sins" are only sins on this show, because of their relationship and past history of the character. To try to make a big bad out of someone who wants to settle down and raise a dog, doesn't make any sense.
st50
# st50 2012-11-09 14:17
Quote:
To try to make a big bad out of someone who wants to settle down and raise a dog, doesn't make any sense.
I agree. And am totally and completely confused. :o

But hey - it's got people turning in to the show, so I guess it's all good for the CW. Right?
Hopefully they have a plan in mind and can set this right. I just don't really seen WHY Carver would've chosen to go this route. It's baffling.
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-11-09 14:24
I'm half inclined to believe that their purpose in writing Sam unlikable is simply that, to write Sam as unlikable. There are a lot of fans who are VERY vocal on spoiler articles, interviews, etc. who are virulently anti-Sam and consistently represent him as selfish, immature, and always betraying Dean. Those are venues TPTB are likely to monitor. I think they may just have decided that this characterizatio n of Sam is the most popular, and that setting up Sam against Dean and taking Dean's side is the way to go for the show. And it seems to be working just fine.

OK, I'm bitter today. But I'm not entirely convinced I'm not right.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-11-09 14:29
Yeah, doesn't seem likely to me. If for no other reason than both Jared and Jensen have said that the bond is the third character and both are protective of their characters. I don't see either of them letting that happen.
RMF
# RMF 2012-11-09 15:13
I'm going to take a stab at this. I think they went this route in order to make Sam look bad in Dean's eyes, but not really the audience's. I bet we were supposed to take that retconned promise seriously, and we were supposed to be (mostly) okay with Sam's choice, the way we might be if Sam well and truly thought Dean was dead. We are meant to find Dean a little unreasonable, therefore, in his resentment. This is their way of injecting some kind of suspense into the dynamic between Dean, Sam, and Benny, because if Dean doesn't think that Sam is a bad brother, then the outcome is a foregone conclusion. Only, it's gone ever so badly wrong.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-11-09 17:15
This I do see as a possibility sadly and if this is the case it has been extremely poorly done.

But I just don't think so(maybe I am being a Pollyanna here), because there are several ways they could have shown us Sam's side while still leaving Dean in the dark.

First, actually SHOWN us what happened after. If Sam's world imploded than that would have been compelling to watch. But instead we get snippets of Sam being ok, while Dean fighting tooth and nail in Purgatory. It seems deliberate. So I'm still searching for a reason that makes this fit.

The weird thing about this season (and this is going completely off subject here-but bare with me) is that at the end of last season there was a post of you wish list for S8.

I wanted Dean to get over his depression and finding away to enjoy hunting again. Check.

I wanted them to move back closer to the middle on the "kill all monster" stance and deal with the repercussions of that stance. Check and starting to check.

I wanted Dean's apathy last year to have meaning and not just be a distraction. I'm seeing hints of check.

I wanted quality over quantity of brothers scene. We had lots of funny, cute moments last year, but they did feel more like coworkers at times. I'm going to give this one a check so far. Because they are actually talking more but with where they stand now I need more too.

I ideally wanted them to deal with some of their past problems in a fairly organic way and hallelujah I got a start of a check. Again need more, but it was a fantastic start. I really didn't expect this one, but I am impressed with the introduction of the storyline last night.

Where I'm going with this is, I lost some trust in the writers last year, more for storyarcs than individual episodes. Several of the storylines seemed to be leading somewhere and then were abruptly dropped. It was frustrating.

But they've already started to correct a lot of the problems I had and look like they are dealing with a few from a few season back. That's amazing!

So I'm giving them a little trust on the Sam storyline. Not that I'm not still a little worried that it is like you say. But they really have woven a kickass storyline for Dean, that feels both real and super cool. So I can't believe they would really think it would be fine to show Sam in a Lifetime movie while showing Dean fighting constantly for his life.

I will admitted the biggest item on my wish list was I wanted that brother connection back. But I said even at the time I wouldn't mind (might even love) a storyline where they were separated by there issues, if ultimately they could come back closer than the were before. I'm hoping that's what is happening.
LEAH D
# LEAH D 2012-11-09 19:03
Great post Kelly, I was thinking similar thoughts, all summer long we all talked about what we wanted to see happen and many of those things did! It does seem to have gone a bit off the rails with the brothers bond right now, but I am still optimistic they will pull this back from the brink. I also had hopes for last season and they never materialized at the end. This season so far just feels more promising.
st50
# st50 2012-11-09 19:05
I'm really trying to hope you are right!
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-11-09 19:07
Thanks! Of course, also on my list was getting more inside Sam head. And I definitely feel more at sea than ever. But like I said I'm giving them some trust.
LEAH D
# LEAH D 2012-11-09 18:52
I both fear you are right and hope you are wrong.
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-11-09 18:57
Thing is, Sam DID think Dean was dead. It doesn't make all that much sense, but he did tell Dean "As far as I knew, hunting is what got every single member of my family killed." But he hasn't brought that up specifically in defense of not searching, as he very well might have. "There was a big explosion, I assumed you died, you know we've agreed that bringing each other back is a bad idea." As to why he hasn't just said that . . . I strongly suspect because it is a perfectly reasonable stance and Dean would understand it and the writers' angsty brotherly conflict would go poof. The writers are sort of trying to eat their cake and have it too on this, and so they've created an incoherent mess of half-assed, conflicting explanations.
RMF
# RMF 2012-11-10 00:00
Quote:
Thing is, Sam DID think Dean was dead. It doesn't make all that much sense, but he did tell Dean "As far as I knew, hunting is what got every single member of my family killed." But he hasn't brought that up specifically in defense of not searching, as he very well might have. "There was a big explosion, I assumed you died, you know we've agreed that bringing each other back is a bad idea." As to why he hasn't just said that . . . I strongly suspect because it is a perfectly reasonable stance and Dean would understand it and the writers' angsty brotherly conflict would go poof. The writers are sort of trying to eat their cake and have it too on this, and so they've created an incoherent mess of half-assed, conflicting explanations.
It is a muddle. At the end of last season, he asked Crowley where Dean and Kevin were. That means he thought they could still have been alive. Then in the first episode this season, he tells Dean that hunting got everyone in his family killed. So he must have thought Dean was dead. Then he says he didn't look for Dean because he had no resources and didn't know where to look. So he must have thought Dean was alive. How can anyone tell from this what Sam really thought?

I believe the writers meant the actual controversy to be about whether Sam was right to choose the natural order of the universe over his brother ("what if someone kept that promise?").  We weren't supposed to hate Sam; we were supposed to see a decision a reasonable person might make, and one that was distinct from what Dean would have done. That fits with Carver's intent to have the brothers interact differently now that they have been apart for a year, and differently than they did in the past when they were damn the torpedoes. Unfortunately, it came across as Sam unable to be bothered to look for Dean. I think it was only supposed to come across that way to Dean, in his amped-up, hypervigilant, black-or-white state.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-10 01:45
Carver didn't even try to make this story make sense. He wanted Sam in a lame, boring relationship and just didn't care how that happened.

If there is some story I'm supposed to be getting from Sam re: his year off, I hope they get to it soon. I'm not even talking about a twist that shows Sam really did search for Dean. It looks like that OOC mess of a story is here to stay.

Aside from that - what else is going on w/Sam? What is Sam's story arc this year? What am I supposed to be learning from his time w/Amelia? They need to start telling a freakin' story b/c as it stands, there is NO story for Sam/Jared. He chilled w/Amelia and then ran into Dean. That is NOT a story.
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-11-10 07:05
Yes, this is what I mean when I say that apart from all questions of characterizatio n and whether Sam's backstory is gripping enough (I am in the minority that is really enjoying Amelia and her and Sam's relationship, so I'm happy on that front) and so on, this story doesn't work for me. It's not consistent, either internally (they keep throwing reasons at us, and the reasons all ask us to assume different things) or with canon (between the promise not to look and the difficulty of reading 7.23 as consistent with Sam assuming Dean's death). One can always engage in wild theories about AUs and how maybe the parts of the story that don't work are meant to not work and mean something, but even if that's where they are going (and I would bet large sums of money that it isn't), it's not playing out tightly as a mystery plot.

Writers make mistakes, long-running shows have continuity errors, canon gets stretched to fit in new plotlines, showrunners are human. The problem is that this particular muddle is in an absolutely central place for the structure of the show, at least for now. Sam's storyline and Sam and Dean's relationship both hinge on it. Fanwank is great for painting over cracks in the plaster, but I'm not sure it's a strong enough substance to repair a crack in a support beam.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-10 07:46
Quote:
. . . (I am in the minority that is really enjoying Amelia and her and Sam's relationship, so I'm happy on that front). . .
You are, huh? I hate to say but JP and LB have NO chemistry to me at all. They don't even have that "we're fighting but will soon be loving" chemistry. I just get nothing from them. Admittedly, I'm not open to the Sam/Amelia relationship but I'd like to say if their chemistry was overwhelming, I'd appreciate that.

I'm very happy you're enjoying them b/c that means there is at least some part of the show you're liking. I, on the other hand, am watching more out of habit than the love I used to have for the show. At one time, this was my all-time favorite show, but I'd have to say it's been replaced by The Walking Dead - a show I just discovered last year. That is a show I cannot miss. If I miss this show. It's not all that tragic.

I do wish Sam had a stake or purpose in the overall arc. He just seems to be floundering around doing nothing. At least when Dean was in Sam's position, the show gave him a lot of emotional arcs and SLs. We always got his POV and were always in his headspace. This year, I feel just as clueless about Sam as I always do. LOL! Other than thinking Dean "died" (silly), what else was happening w/him? It would be nice to know.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-10 08:03
I liked how they portrayed sam -amelia relationship in the latest.I did not like it earlier episodes is because they were not chronological
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-10 08:18
I dislike the Sam/Amelia relationship on all levels. In this past episode, I found the FBs to be even more awkwardly placed than they ones in previous episodes. I'm not sure what, if any, message I was supposed to be getting from them.

But like I told etheldred, I'm happy you're enjoying Sam/Amelia. I, myself, am enjoying nothing about the show these days. The bond is in the toilet, and I realized that I don't care. Sad, but true. I'll always miss what this show used to be.
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-11-10 08:26
Lala2, chemistry is very subjective, I think -- whether a given dynamic clicks or not is always going to be a personal response. But for what it's worth, I think the lack of "chemistry" in one definition of the term is actually a selling point to me for Sam and Amelia. I see their relationship as very wary and closed off in a lot of ways, for reasons on both sides, so I don't think that either an immediate, overwhelming attraction or a sparky enmity would work for me as a starting point. From some of what Jared has said in interviews, I get the impression that a sense that they are both holding back somewhat, even as they commit to a relationship, is feature rather than bug, something that is intended. Certainly


SPOILERS

Jared has said that the depiction of the relationship gets darker as time goes on; we're not supposed to see the picnic in the park thing as the key to their dynamic.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-10 09:55
Interesting . . . . well, I wish I could say I cared about Sam's relationship w/her but I really don't. I didn't care about Dean's relationship w/Lisa and Ben either.

I guess I'm not learning anything about Sam as a result of this relationship so it just doesn't mean much to me. The fact that Sam found a girl and had a relationship w/her is just very blah, ho hum to me. I think it's too "normal" for this show. Am I making any sense? LOL!
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-09 19:48
I have to agree this has gone so very, very wrong. I really hope this gets corrected.
st50
# st50 2012-11-10 13:04
Quote:

It is a muddle. At the end of last season, he asked Crowley where Dean and Kevin were. That means he thought they could still have been alive. Then in the first episode this season, he tells Dean that hunting got everyone in his family killed.
This is a little ways up the page, but it bears repeating. For me, this is the whole problem with the season to date.

There HAS to be a scene between these two that shows how Sam got from a to b..... Especially if Carver expects us to EVER take it on face value and move on. I'm afraid when/if we are ever shown it, it'll be too little too late.
st50
# st50 2012-11-10 14:22
Chock this one up to a missed opportunity (but I'm glad they missed it, 'cause it was already overdone!)

Dean: "Since when is decapitation not my thing"
Sam (should've said, followed by bitchface): "Since Benny"
:-*
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2012-11-11 04:29
I follow all your comments (still) although am getting really DETACHED from the brothers relationship since the premiere of S8 (and in every new episode I am getting more and more distanced) and start to think of 2 JERKS on the road instead of 2 BROTHERS on the road I almost want them to part their ways. Its not gripping like it was in S4 where I still could feel their bond. I could go with Sam's arc and I could understand. I could understand Dean's. But Sam's downfall broke my heart! And also his redemption! Okay, now I want actually say something different.

I think JC thought that the brothers arc's are deliberately told differently.

Dean's arc is told in chronology and in the open. We get his story from the start, how he met Benny, that he wanted to find the angel, and how he got friend to Benny. And it seems that there will be a dark little secret about Castiel in purgatory.And we clearly understand Dean why he is friends with Benny.

Sam's arc is told contrary. Well, we start with him when he hit the dog and then he got to the motel and worked. We don't know what he did before he hit the dog. But exactly this time is crucial for us viewers to know so we can understand him better.


The conclusion and showing what exactly happened might come in one episode where the 2 arcs hit together. I hope we will see what Dean did finally and I so.much. hope we finally see Sam's collapse after Dean disappeared. I just can't see Sam turning around and move on without a huge fallout, I can't and I still don't understand why JC decided to not show us his reaction..

Its unfortunately a pattern to show Dean open and Sam mysterious. But I thought JC is coming from a show where everyone has a POV and equal exploring. I only don't know if JK approximate knows our mysterious character Sam. I think EK knew him. But when a character gets now his flesh out and its a totally new character its hard to go with it.
What me upset the most is that it seems Sam's time since he was introduced into the series and his redemption, his unimaginable torture for 180 years is not to be seen on him. I hope this changes sooner than to late!
Right now I can't connect to Sam, I can't connect to Dean a little longer already, but I went with Sam's connection. Now I don*t feel connection, love, brotherhood. Dean and Benny seems more like cool brothers, I think Dean should just hunt with Benny and Sam could make a research center with all the books, not Garth. Sam is for me the ultimate hunter organizer with a stoked up library where he works and in the same time he works in the university and secretly he supports the hunting world. When he needs time out he could leave and heal (I still think there should be clearly a fallout from his time in the cage)

Right now I am not enjoying the brothers as they are, I want them part their ways.


I would call it BS if Sam would now try to hunt Benny down, because Sam could always connect to creatures who tried to stay good!

And one word I have to say, Sam is redeemed 1000 times for me, I will never question his redemption. It is shown that Sam righted the wrong he did. It was a huge sacrifice and he payed more than he should have. To take this away would be the silliest thing a showrunner could do to one of the main characters on this show. It would be also contrary to EK's story. I can't think JC would take this away. And I also think EK knew Sam Winchester the best.

What JC took over is the kind of story telling from Dean's POV. He took over and rehashed a S4 feeling mixed with S6. This time it may be Dean with the dark secret and is the ultimate hunter, but he is still forefront and seems to be in the right, Sam this time did obvious nothing and seems to be in the wrong, I am not patient with this kind of story telling, not anymore.

One poster said that maybe his soul is to damaged that he can't really connect to others anymore. MAybe there is something to this, but in the FB's he connected with the boy in the motel, so I don't know!
st50
# st50 2012-11-11 11:32
I hear ya, shadowhund!

Someone on another thread (I think, it's getting hard to remember where) commented that JC is doing a good job of setting it up so that everyone is confused over which brother is in the right and which is in the wrong.

Maybe that's the point... because it's difficult to see where they both are/how they got there. And they both sure are being Jerks! towards the other at the mo.... (some definitely deserved, but....)
LEAH D
# LEAH D 2012-11-11 11:50
What I am having a problem with is that they both are right about some things and very wrong about other things!!! ARGGG. As E pointed out they are probably all sitting in an office having a good laugh about all this.
st50
# st50 2012-11-11 12:02
Quote:
What I am having a problem with is that they both are right about some things and very wrong about other things!!! ARGGG. .
Exactly. I think that's the point. They always have been, though. The writers are just making sure we get it. Bashing us over the head with it!

The problem here, is HOW DO WE GET BACK TO THEM BEING ON THE SAME PAGE? That's what I don't see. How do they recover from all the things they've both said/done?
LEAH D
# LEAH D 2012-11-11 12:23
Are we puppets for the show? :-) Even though they've often been on different pages they always find a way back to each other and I am sure they will again. OK- sometimes I worry they can't fix whats broke. But I have to believe this would not play out as them splitting up forever in anger.I can't see the PTB sitting around a table "yeah thats a great direction to take". I do think the writers are taking all of us on a bumpy ride on purpose and we and the brothers will come out the other side ok. Any other way would simply be the end of the show for most.
Supernarttu
# Supernarttu 2012-11-11 16:31
Sam Winchester used to be so clear to me.
What happened to him?

Honestly, I ain't got a clue. And that statement comes from a person who's always, always gotten him. From season to season, I've always seen Sams reasoning, his choices, his state of mind. I didn't even need dialogue to get him, sometimes just glances were speaking volumes about his stance.

This season? Not so much. I don't know this character. I can't see his reasoning. I can't see his decisions. I can't see his affection to that Amelia woman. Hell, I can't see his affection to Dean! And I can not believe that Sam would not look for Dean. It just doesn't compute with me. Makes no sense. How could he just walk away after Dean dissappeared with Cas, and Crowley took Kevin? That does not sound like Sam Winchester to me. Sam would look, he would try. I'm not saying that he should go all Mystery Spot -obsessive, but how can he live with the fact that he doesn't know where Dean is? Or Kevin?

Sam not looking for Dean (and deserting Kevin) sounds so impossible that it colors my view on the whole season so far. It colors everything, because the Sam that I see this season, does not seem like Sam at all. I can't enjoy the show when one of the main characters is just so odd, distant and unemotional when he'd never been like this before. It's really distracting the hell out of me.

And as it now seems that this is the way JC has decided to go with Sam, as mind boggling as it is, what I want to know now is, how he came to that conclusion.
The sad part is, I haven't seen anything on that front. And I'm getting sick and tired of waiting.

On a positive note, Deans Purgatory story seems interesting. He's become more dark, which is a flavor I like. I like that he's got some of his fire back, his fighting spirit. It's always been such a fundamental part of Dean, and it's been missing for some years now. I'm glad that he's stronger and more confident. Unfortunately, his relationship with Sam, the reason I began watching this show in the first place, is still on the fritz. It saddens me to watch these two guys, who used to be so close, just sit around and do nothing when they are both hurting. This constant conflict is so numbing.

I'm not that hard to please. Just give me the brotherhood of Sam and Dean. Why? Just 'cause.


"You hurt my brother, I will kill you, I swear."
"I'm not leaving my brother alone out there."
Leah
# Leah 2012-11-11 17:44
I completely empathize with you. It is very disconcerting to watch Sam this year. I don't know if anyone brought this up so forgive me if I am repeating the ideas of others. But I am hoping that Sam is under duress due to someone threatening Amelia,and or Dean. Crowley has had a pretty low profile and Sam was being watched by SOMEONE. Maybe it is just wishful thinking on my part. I know he has come up against Crowley earlier this year but that doesn't mean that he's not holding something over Sam's head. Sam happening to be at the cabin just as Dean arrived. Coincidence? His seeming lack of shock that Dean was there. Like I said, maybe I'm just trying to find answers where there are none. This last episode was altogether another can of worms!
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-11 18:45
Quote:
Sam Winchester used to be so clear to me.
What happened to him? . . .

I don't know this character. I can't see his reasoning. I can't see his decisions. I can't see his affection to that Amelia woman. Hell, I can't see his affection to Dean! And I can not believe that Sam would not look for Dean. It just doesn't compute with me. Makes no sense. How could he just walk away after Dean dissappeared with Cas, and Crowley took Kevin? That does not sound like Sam Winchester to me. Sam would look, he would try. I'm not saying that he should go all Mystery Spot -obsessive, but how can he live with the fact that he doesn't know where Dean is? Or Kevin?

Sam not looking for Dean (and deserting Kevin) sounds so impossible that it colors my view on the whole season so far. It colors everything, because the Sam that I see this season, does not seem like Sam at all. I can't enjoy the show when one of the main characters is just so odd, distant and unemotional when he'd never been like this before. It's really distracting the hell out of me.

And as it now seems that this is the way JC has decided to go with Sam, as mind boggling as it is, what I want to know now is, how he came to that conclusion.
The sad part is, I haven't seen anything on that front. And I'm getting sick and tired of waiting.
I think you and I are in the same place. This OOC story for Sam has soured me on the show and the season thus far. For instance, the Benny background stuff was not bad, but I couldn't fully appreciate it because I simply can't wrap my mind around the arc for Sam.

This podSam is no one I can say I'm interested in or that I like. I don't know him. I don't understand him. Nothing podSam does makes any sense to me.

Plus, the bond is dead. The brothers . . . . I have no idea why they are even associating w/each other let alone driving around together. IMO, their relationship has taken one too many hits over the years. It's no longer believable - to me - that they're in the Impala together. They don't even seem to like each other anymore.
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2012-11-12 05:43
lala, it is much worse than in S4 for me, seeing the brothers now sitting together in this tiny car the WHOLE time makes me feel like exploding because the air in this car is not enough for both of them. I can't enjoy them together anymore, it started already in S6 for me, S7 was worse, but now where I thought we get them back with JC its even worse because it feels like the contrary happened.

If JC wants us to show Sam in a relationship then I would be all in for it now. But how they present it is like this actually didn't happen, like a dream. And I don't feel Sam anymore! I don't feel his emotions......a nd I think it is like Dean is not back in the real world with the "real boy". Its like Dean is in another realm with another splinter of Sam, I just don't feel Sam anymore, and when I look at Dean I see Mr. Self-Righteous I don't like either.

So fail for me....big fail when I can't connect anymore with the 2 main-characters .

The purgatory scenes do nothing for me than showing how great the relationship between Dean and Benny is.... "profound bond"-alike.... . remember anyone?

With this one sentence "did you look for me Sam?" and with Sam's reaction the whole foundation of this show crumbled into nothing. I thought I knew Sam and that he wouldn't just turn and go on without trying or reacting devastated. If the show gives us finally a scene like this it will already be to late, it is already to late for me now. If the show says now look viewers, Sam reacted that way you see right on the screen and there is nothing more to it, when the show screwed up my favorite character ...in an unimaginable way!

I think nobody knows Sam Winchester, only EK! EK is gone and the writers and showrunners go with Dean because he is the character to write easier for. That leaves me back at a point where I have to endure seeing Sam shafted to the background regarding sympathy and connecting scenes, regarding emotions and regarding choices one of TWO main characters made because his only left family and only person he did have a relationship with vanished in front of him!

I still repeat the words of RS in my mind where he said "Sam had the emotional brunt of storyline in S7" I thought "what?" -"huh?" -"where?"-did I miss it with the blink of my eyes?"
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-12 08:40
Sam had the emotional brunt of season 7 the same way he always does, in the background. Like in season 2 where he presumably mourned for John in the background. Or season four where his addiction and what he was feeling and thinking was playing out in the background. Or season five where his feelings about having been prepped to host what was thought to be the ultimate evil were in the background. Or season seven where his insanity was shown in the background. Sadly, this is the standard pattern for writing Sam. It bugs the heck out of me, but it's what the writers want.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-12 10:29
Yeah, this is much worse than S4 and S7. I actually think Sera put the boys in a good place after Sam's soul was returned. I felt the love btw them in the second half. There was no unnecessary drama btw them. It felt like S1 again. Now, Sam was once again pushed to the background, but the bond was solid.

Here, podSam is an entirely new person, and the boys seem to actively dislike each other. My sister is a casual viewer, and she asked him if the writers only like to write for Dean. She can't stand Amelia and feels the writing for Sam is OOC.

It's not just us, but I'm sure Carver doesn't care. He's on his way, IMO, to ruining the show. I'm off work today and am watching TNT. They just played the Madison episode. This show needs to get back to basics. Maybe Carver should watch a few episodes from S1 - S3. He's just not getting it right, IMO.
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2012-11-12 10:43
What does podSam mean? Does it mean something like "shell"Sam? Like...there is seemingly Sam Winchester in front of us, but with a changed inner, a different soul, core, a new stuffed Sam? It almost seems like the Leviathan Sam and Dean, but they had more in sync than the "real" ones now...

I don't watch the old episodes anymore, not anymore! The new episodes I barely watch one time. I used to watch them a dozen times, because my heart and attention was in it but also to understand all of it because of my different language, now I don't.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-11-12 11:05
The brothers relationship lost its uniqueness it actually meant 'the brothers' once. Now they go and create brother relationship's for Dean and then have him tell Sam 'Benny is a better brother than you have ever been' not Dean being upset at Sam not looking oh no, no we have 'ever been' right between the eyes.

Sam not looking was just against everything we know about him and done as some sort of lets explore Sam not looking except they arent really exploring it .
So I can understand the thought the brothers are doing themselves more harm than good being together .
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-12 14:42
Quote:
Sam not looking was just against everything we know about him and done as some sort of lets explore Sam not looking except they arent really exploring it.
That's my 2nd primary problem w/this story. They're not even exploring this angle of it. Why did Sam think Dean was dead? How did his world implode? What did he do immediately after he left that building?

Riding around and getting a dog and GF is not a story.
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2012-11-12 15:01
lala, I remember reading that Jared said it would be interesting to see Sam's immediate reaction right after Dean disappeared. Now I don't know if Jared meant the words "my world imploded and it rained down on me" or if he meant there would actually be a scene about Sam's reaction.

But Jared also said about last season that he tried to show continuity with the hand rubbing and that we have an idea about Sam's hallucinations here and there, but this was CUTTED OUT by the editor!
So I don't know if I should still give a little time and patience, but its just that I was so patiently waiting and waiting for any of Sam's emotional fallout and repercussions that I just don't have this patience anymore ...
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-12 15:50
I heard that they cut a lot of Jared's scenes last year! I wonder why. Those scenes or moments would have added to the story.

I would think we would get a scene of Sam's immediate reaction, but we keep moving further and further away from that moment, you know? I thought waiting until IKWYDLS to tell Sam's story was a bad idea, and if that's the plan this year, I still don't think it makes much sense. We should have gotten a FB by now of Sam and how he felt after Dean disappeared. I'm not sure why they're waiting unless there is nothing tell from their POV.
st50
# st50 2012-11-12 17:18
Quote:
I heard that they cut a lot of Jared's scenes last year! I wonder why. Those scenes or moments would have added to the story.
That's a shame. I'm sure they cut a lot from both guys to get a well-told story to fit the time allotted, but I would've liked to see more of that tale.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-12 18:37
I guess "well-told" is subjective. Haha! I haven't found Sam's stories to be well-told lately.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-12 14:35
Yes, Shadow, that's exactly it! There was a movie called "Invasion of Body Snatchers" where people were replaced by exact replicas but those people didn't behave like themselves. They were called "pod people."

So Sam Winchester is on my screen but not the Sam I know. It is podSam. This person looks like Sam and sounds like Sam, but behaves NOTHING like Sam.
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2012-11-12 09:52
Quote:
Sam Winchester used to be so clear to me.
What happened to him?

Honestly, I ain't got a clue. And that statement comes from a person who's always, always gotten him.

"--------
---------
---------"

"You hurt my brother, I will kill you, I swear."
"I'm not leaving my brother alone out there."
EXACTLY!
Those quotes of yours says it all....about Sam's and Dean's foundation.

Now it seems the writers pulled this foundation away in not letting Sam searching for Dean and in not showing his grieve, how he coped -and in "hinting" Dean would choose someone else over his own brother.
It confirms Sam that Dean is not accepting Sam (still this voice mail message comes to mind from "Lucifer Rising" and Dean thinks Sam is abandoning him.

Who are those two guys from S8 who calls themselfes Sam and Dean Winchester?
Alice
# Alice 2012-11-15 12:22
I am moving comments from the "A Little Slice of Kevin" preview discussion right here. What you see in this branch is from that discussion. There was some excess frustrations expressed over Sam's character from last night's episode that really reflect a complaint with his character in general this season.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-15 01:28
@ percysowner and lala2 So Sam is still the wall paper.Quote:
he did w/sensitivity and compassion.
Good to know this but simply not enough.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-15 07:00
Yep!
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-15 05:32
Quote:
Sam's story will come!!
This is the problem because i wait every season for Sam's story to come.( and sometimes what we get is stale)
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-15 06:59
Quote:
Sam's story will come!!
And yet it never does.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-11-15 09:29
Quote:
Quote:
Sam's story will come!!
And yet it never does.
I am not sure why we are waiting for it. It seems Jeremy Carver is following the same pattern has previous seasons. Mytharc no mytharc Sam still seems to get written the same way.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-15 06:56
We are hard on the fact that Sam gets virtually NO POV almost every season. We are hard on the fact that we have been shown Sam doing things that put him in a less than good or even bad life with the either implicit or explicit promise that Sam's side will be told in the back half and then it never gets shown in the back half.

I am unhappy because we were told that this season would play with perceptions and that we would start out thinking some behavior was bad but wait until you see how it plays out. We were then shown Sam acting in ways that seemed deeply OOC and have been hoping that the change in perspective is that Sam not looking for his brother was due to something hidden. Instead we now know that the perception that was wrong was that Dean did ANYTHING wrong in hell in regard to Castiel, when in fact he was still the perfect friend and hunter and even benefited by suddenly being a hunter who could see shades of grey in hunting. Sam is still and forever the jerk who didn't look for Dean, who is now third on the totem pole of good brother and his one minor contribution to the hunt, not hating all monsters is not only no longer needed, because Dean now understands, but he is beginning to revert to Dean's kill them all philosophy with Benny the good.

I am annoyed that now that we have Cas back in the mix, it looks like Sam's story will be minimized even more. Heck, I'm expecting the truly evil because he drank all that demon blood to save the world to emerge.

I'm tired of getting a story that has Dean ream Sam out for his faults and betrayals with Sam getting no defense. I'm tired of seeing a character I care about get thrown under the bus. I care about far more than Sam's image. I care that the character be allowed a POV and examination of his rationale for his actions and an examination of his emotional state during the most stressful times in his life.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2012-12-13 09:30
Quote:
We are hard on the fact that Sam gets virtually NO POV almost every season. We are hard on the fact that we have been shown Sam doing things that put him in a less than good or even bad life with the either implicit or explicit promise that Sam's side will be told in the back half and then it never gets shown in the back half.

I am unhappy because we were told that this season would play with perceptions and that we would start out thinking some behavior was bad but wait until you see how it plays out. We were then shown Sam acting in ways that seemed deeply OOC and have been hoping that the change in perspective is that Sam not looking for his brother was due to something hidden. Instead we now know that the perception that was wrong was that Dean did ANYTHING wrong in hell in regard to Castiel, when in fact he was still the perfect friend and hunter and even benefited by suddenly being a hunter who could see shades of grey in hunting. Sam is still and forever the jerk who didn't look for Dean, who is now third on the totem pole of good brother and his one minor contribution to the hunt, not hating all monsters is not only no longer needed, because Dean now understands, but he is beginning to revert to Dean's kill them all philosophy with Benny the good.

I am annoyed that now that we have Cas back in the mix, it looks like Sam's story will be minimized even more. Heck, I'm expecting the truly evil because he drank all that demon blood to save the world to emerge.

I'm tired of getting a story that has Dean ream Sam out for his faults and betrayals with Sam getting no defense. I'm tired of seeing a character I care about get thrown under the bus. I care about far more than Sam's image. I care that the character be allowed a POV and examination of his rationale for his actions and an examination of his emotional state during the most stressful times in his life.


You've summarized my feelings exactly. I've been waiting for 4 seasons for Sam's POV and have run out of patience. Right now, I really wish JP had done the Die Hard movie and quit SPN. Never thought I would say this but I'm tired of never getting anything for the character I identify with.
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-15 09:29
For me these two quotes are the way the show has dealt with the responsibility and blame the show deals out to the boys:

Dean "Is it true? That I broke the first seal? Did I start all this?"
Castiel: ...we fought our way to get to you, before you -"
Dean: Jump-started the Apocalypse?
Cas: And we were too late.
Dean: Why didn't you just leave me there then?
Cas:It's not blame that falls on you, Dean. It's fate. The righteous man that begins it, is the only one that can finish it. You - have to stop it.

versus

Sam: "If we lay it all out for him, the Apocalypse, everything, he might make the right choice."
Castiel: "You didn't.

I would love to hear quotes showing the opposite to be true because at this stage I am so disheartened by the way Sam is being portrayed yet again.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-21 02:53
Quote:
Castiel: "You didn't.
This sentence actually made me hate Cas as if he had laid everything about apocalypse in front of Sam.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-15 09:49
Don't hold your breath. Sam is the bad unworthy terrible character. Castiel stayed in Purgatory because he is SO WONDERFUL that he took his punishment. Sam had his penance taken away and never suffered at all according to canon, so he's still the same terrible person he always was, but that's okay because Dean now has 2 new, better brothers and Sam is yesterday's trash.
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-15 11:52
Yes, have turned blue. I just think that this is the wrong season to do this to him. The writers haven't earned this.

I put my positive vibes on ardeospina's review, maybe they might cheer you up :-)
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-15 14:01
Yeah . . . I hope we get a Sam POV episode soon - preferably one w/o Amelia.

Unless there's some big twist w/her, I don't need to see much more of their (boring IMO) relationship. Hahaha!
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-15 16:16
From the sweetondean spoiler lite thread
Leah:
Quote:
It is interesting that I've always felt the same about Sam's "bad" decisions. I can't think of any time that I didn't at least see Sams's viewpoint or motivation. Demon blood drinking included. I can forgive him for not looking for Dean, if he truly thought he was dead. I think that is an unpopular decision, not necessarily bad. I hope it doesn't come down to that! I like to think I'm fairly unbias also. It just goes to show you we are all looking at things through different lenses (is that the plural of lens?).
I always understood his motivations, but last week the show was crystal clear, that there is no excuse for anything Sam does. Dean is our POV character. We haven't seen Sam mourn or feel joy or what he feels about anything for so many seasons. And last episode Dean told us, point blank that Sam should never ever be forgiven for anything he has done. Dean is the character who gets to judge, has been since season one. Dean is the character who gets to decide which monsters can be trusted and which can't and Dean has stated that Sam must never be forgiven for Ruby and Sam is not a good brother. THE SHOW has set the parameters and not even allowed Sam to say one word in his own defense. I can spin Sam's motives in my head, but the show has no stated categorically that SAM IS WRONG AND A BAD BROTHER, FULL STOP.

Quote:
I always could see Sam's POV before, but I did consider that he made very bad choices S4. Dean has made mistakes as well and perhaps they intended for those to have the same weight but I don't think they ever did. They always have given him more of a voice in supporting his POV IMO. Most of the I could see the reason for story telling purposes. But I do think they've continued to neglect Sam's POV past the time when it mattered to story and, last season especially, it was to the determent of the story.

I hate to harp on Amy but the Mentalists highlighted. It honestly doesn't matter which side of killing her or not killing her you're on, the point remains that SAM considered his view to be the right one. HE thought she deserved a second chance. And instead of arguing the point, Dean has his say and Sam just says he's right at the end. I honestly thought at the time that they were going somewhere with that. They were going to show Sam didn't trust himself and he'd have to learn to trust his instinct again. Because otherwise why the abrupt about face- but no Dean was just right. That really pissed me off and STILL pisses me off every time I watch that episode. But I will say they are correcting that a little this year. But I still need more.
The Mentalists was a huge miss for me. I could have accepted Sam agreeing that he couldn't view Amy objectively, but the show totally ignored the real issue, that Dean told Sam he trusted him when he didn't. Dean told Sam that he was stone one and then proceeded to smash stone one to bits.

Dean always gets the understandable easy explanation. We see Dean falling apart for all of season 2 so we understand why he broke and sold his soul. We lived though Abu Gahrab and we learned that everybody breaks under torture so Dean's breaking the first seal is totally understandable. Sam grieves off screen (except for 5 minutes in IKWYDLS) and comes off as betraying Dean for Ruby for no good reason other than wanting power.

The treatment of Sam has bothered me for YEARS and this one is taking me to my breaking point.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-11-15 16:53
Quote:
From the sweetondean spoiler lite thread
And last episode Dean told us, point blank that Sam should never ever be forgiven for anything he has done. Dean is the character who gets to judge, has been since season one. Dean is the character who gets to decide which monsters can be trusted and which can't and Dean has stated that Sam must never be forgiven for Ruby and Sam is not a good brother. THE SHOW has set the parameters and not even allowed Sam to say one word in his own defense. I can spin Sam's motives in my head, but the show has no stated categorically that SAM IS WRONG AND A BAD BROTHER, FULL STOP.
That wasn't my take on the last episode. I think they were just getting the stuff out there, so it can be dealt with in a later episode, but I can see where that requires a lot of faith at this point, which I still have. I think that was just the start of the conversation not the end.

If we get to the end of the season and Sam still hasn't been able to deal with his stuff and address the things that Dean threw at him - I will be pissed. Because that WAS completely unfair in every way. And I also need for Sam's POV to have balance this season, he's taken a pretty hard hit, worse than S4 in some ways. So they NEED to counter balance that.
Leah
# Leah 2012-11-15 17:08
I just wanted to say how sorry I would be if you threw in the towel and disappeared from this site. I don't always see eye to eye with you but it would be disappointing as I do care about the people here with all their diverse opinions and passion for their characters.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-15 17:30
Thank you. I am going to watch until mid season break and I am going to try to watch 10 and 11 because the rumors are that Sam actually gets some story development in those. I really want them to give some in depth Sam POV and maybe they will.

My main concerns are that JC didn't see this storm coming over Sam not looking for Dean and that he doesn't have time to give some insight there or that he knew and simply doesn't care. The first assumption means he doesn't know the characters he inherited and the second means what I want from the show will never happen. Another possibility that worries me is that JC didn't see the storm coming, but sees that the ratings are higher than they have been in years and he will decide that yes indeed, Sam the uncaring is unimportant and what people want is the Dean, Benny and Cas show with Sam being sent for coffee at the beginning of each episode and coming back with it at the end.

I hope JC has a plan to cover my concerns, however many people are enjoying this season and many people don't think Sam is being ill served and others are advocating for Sam to be shown even less, so he is pleasing the audience. But this is becoming very painful.
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2012-11-15 17:43
No Percy, lots of Sam fans watching because they are waiting for something, if the ratings drop it will probably be after the hiatus, , I think the ratings increased because of wednesday and "Arrow" viewers! Many fans are waiting and hope for some great story for Sam, be it human or not, but back up emotional!!!!
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-11-15 17:51
If somehow your worse fears about what they are doing to Sam's character are true. They would lose a lot of viewers, including me. And I can fairly safely say my sister, her kids at college,my aunt and most of the other people I know who watch the show. Even my "Dean girls' would not like it if they destroyed the core of the show. And MOST viewers are not part of the fandom or just lurk (I wasn't until end of last year). So just because some idiots (sorry any who thinks they need less Sam or Dean is an idiot) think that way doesn't mean the won't lose the core on the viewers if they do that.
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2012-11-15 18:06
the thing also for me is how Dean reacts to Sam, Dean is the POV character and I feel his resentment and his anger, his judgement towards Sam, in contrast to him interacting with Castiel and Benny it is heart breaking for me to see, I almost dislike it and its cringeworthy to see how Dean is reacting to Sam, it hurts! And I can't feel their love anymore, foremost from Dean to Sam. But Dean is the POV and the main POV. I don't feel like Dean is "nice" to Sam but to all the other "brothers"in the SPN world!
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-16 09:26
Exactly Dean is the POV character and with Sam being given nothing to explain him in the flashbacks, all we get is how poor Dean is yet again being let down by Sam the unloving. I don't know how any character can survive being in the wrong season after season while being given no insight into his mindset.
Leah
# Leah 2012-11-15 18:45
My son and daughter-in-law recently marathon watched all 7 seasons and they adore it. It always does my heart good when I go over or they come over and the first thing they say is" want to watch some Super?" that is their name for the show. Cute. My point is that they LOVE Sam and Dean and could not imagine the show without either one. All the online chatter aside the show would not survive without Sam as an integral part of the show. As much as I am enjoying the show I would not hesitate to rethink my position if Sam was "sent out for coffee". I DO agree coffee is important but it better be Cas or Dean or Benny getting it as often as Sam!!! :)
Leah
# Leah 2012-11-15 16:41
Percy- I am not going to go all full metal defensive on you here. I just disagree. Not about it all. The idea that the show (and Dean) has stated their true position in a rat-crazy ghosts rants thru Dean is not something I can get behind. Of course there were some true resentments there but now it is getting used unfairly to represent Dean's true feelings and how the show sees Sam. I can't change your opinion. I'm sorry you are so angry and disappointed. Truly.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-15 19:05
But, Leah, those were Dean's true feelings. I'm not sure why we're supposed to think those weren't his feelings. They were his feelings.
Leah
# Leah 2012-11-15 19:53
Gosh lala, I am so sorry I am going to go over this again. I think some thoughts and resentments were amplified and twisted as they were in all the victims. I further think that when infected, Dean was(and still is) hurt that Sam apparently made no effort to look for him and he lashed out with everything he had to hurt Sam in retaliation. I think he used some simmering feelings he really has. I think the" better brother" was related to his hurt and feeling bonded with Benny. Do I think that Dean felt that before returning from purgotory or really in his heart believes it? Absolutely not. YES I know how others feel about that, but that is my opinion for what its worth. I guess my problem is that some are saying that Dean has felt this way for awhile and cast doubt on Dean's love for Sam.
Leah
# Leah 2012-11-15 20:58
Just once I wish could spell purgatory right in a comment.
Leah
# Leah 2012-11-15 22:45
Lala, hey I just wanted to add in case my first sentence wasn't clear, I was apologizing for repeating myself. Kind of a broken record on this. Not anything aimed at you! I enjoy trading thoughts with you even when we differ.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-11-15 16:59
Quote:
So many things about last year left a bad taste. I never disagree that Sam's POV isn't neglected. I just don't see him portrayed as the awful, bad, stupid, lesser brother. Sam's character needs some love from the show, no doubt way overdue. I also don't think the RANT should be continued to be brought up as to how Sam is perceived by Dean. Better brother yada yada. A lot has been corrected this year, I think, and agree much more is needed. Let's see if they fulfill that promise.
That's pretty much where I'm at as well. I had serious problem with the arcs last year, but I have already noticed a course correction for most of those this year. And I have hope based partial on those corrections.
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2012-11-15 17:01
That is it! JC, RS and BE are following the pattern!

And it was not neccessary! Absolutely not! They destroyed a lot of hope for some people, I assume not only me!

The pattern in this show is to not show us Sam's POV and to not supprt his side or his decisions. The pattern of this show is to put Dean in the middle, but it should be the brothers equal. The pattern of this show is to not give Sam the neccessary back up, he needs. Instead the start of the season is already favouring Dean's charatcer and demolishing Sam's character with this choice to not show us why Sam didn't look for Dean and why he stopped and how he could manage to live happily after. Its a trial to even defend Sam its almost impossible.

Hope brings it out that people here having good ideas and still trying to find a reason why Sam didn't look.
For me the premise ...the foundation of this show is destroyed and JC and RS and BE are like Dean throwing the hammer against the core (the impala) in "Everybody Loves The Clowns"

I wish Jared wouldn't be as loyal as he is, and would have quit SPN after S7. Dean has enough brothers they care about him and they are the better ones to him! I would like to see more of Sam, but show doesn't so I would like to see Jared in something different now! Maybe he can get out of the contract, but somehow I think he is content with his less filming time (due to his adorable little Thomas), but I think he should be way more concerned about the direction his character is taking and about the shades of grey Sam's story is told. He should worry about Sam!

I say it is catastrophic the writing for Sam, more than that. And I can't understand why.

Its like caine and abel. I have my mind about Dean is paralleling Caine and Sam is paralleling Abel, but the writers make Abel the worst character of all and caine is there to feel sorrow for him and his endless guilt trip, in the end we will all understand why Caine killed Abel!


I also think its good that there are two weeks break, it will be easier to not tune in anyore, except there is something more to Sam and it will be satisfying in the second half! I can't think that Jared likes this for his charatcer but he is to loyal for gods sake!
dinkwerks
# dinkwerks 2012-11-15 18:07
Where's the reviews for A little slice of Kevin. Looked for them, as they are usually up after the show. I have questions....wh at's with the angels? Naomi is a new character and why are they still interested in Sam and Dean? is this going somewhere....Th oughts anyone?
Ardeospina
# Ardeospina 2012-11-15 20:49
Hello! The first review for any episode is always the "Let's Speculate," which was posted a few hours after the episode aired EST. So you can head over there for any questions and theories!

Ardeospina
dinkwerks
# dinkwerks 2012-11-15 21:08
Sorry guys, wrong spot for this, though I had it in the correct section.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-20 13:08
Bringing this over from sweetondean thread

Quote:
I don't disagree that it seems "off". I haven't yet bought the plot they've shown us for Sam. I'm still hoping there's more to it than what they've shown.... And I will hold that hope all the way to episode 23 if necessary.

(Struggling with patience, holding on to booze and shallow Tshirt shots to keep me going... Thanks, sweetondean. ;-) )

If, at the end of Season 8, it still seems that Carver has forgotten all of what Sam has been through, and it isn't woven in somehow to inform the way he's behaving now, explaining this version of Sam... Then I will absolutely agree that Carver blew it.

Then I will have to decide if I can accept what I feel is a mistake in Sam's characterization well enough to continue to season 9.

Really hoping that when we FINALLY get a glimpse of Sam's life, it'll make sense, and it won't seem like Carver is re-writing history, and ignoring what Sam's been through, and who he's always been.
My big problem with the they are holding the story for Sam until later idea is that the damage to Sam's character is being done NOW and it is rapidly reaching the place where no explanation, no rationale and no actions will make Sam a redeemable character judged by the basis of Supernatural. He is being portrayed as a bad brother on a series where brotherhood is all. The show has already presented us with not one, but two replacement brothers who are being portrayed as superior to Sam in every way. Benny has never betrayed Dean, Cas is betraying Dean without his knowledge and against his objections. Sam is just being portrayed as a jerk to Dean.

IRL, I would tell Sam to leave. That Dean has not forgiven any mistake that Sam has made, including ones he did not make, like coming back soulless. Dean's inability to let go of Sam's "betrayals" is soul destroying if Sam stay with him. How long can anyone go being constantly reminded that they are a failure on every basic level. Dean has low self esteem, but Sam for the most part does whatever he can to boost that self esteem. Dean keeps harping on the same actions that can not be changed and that Sam worked very hard to make amends for. IRL, this would be toxic to both.

But this is Supernatural where family reigns supreme and Dean is the Dali Lama of brotherly loyalty. Sam's actions and nonactions are judged by this standard and he has been declared unworthy. Once an opinion about a character has been set it is very hard to change that opinion and the first third of this season has worked to make Sam look more unworthy than he has already been perceived. I don't see much way out of this, other than going full tilt, giving Dean his new family, making Sam the final big evil and having us all cheer that Dean kills Sam while feeling bad for Dean because he had to do it and because he once loved a completely unredeemable, evil from birth brother, while we feel nothing but contempt for Sam who was never good enough to have a great brother like Dean.

I am frankly feeling ill about the handling of this whole season. Sam is sidelined for the story of I was a teen aged werewolf, the Harliquin escapades of a huggable vampire, the self-flagellati on and brainwashing of a plucky and brave angel and the antics of Garth the Dentist/Tooth Fairy slayer. I am reaching the point where I can not envision the show being an enjoyable experience.
Amywould
# Amywould 2012-11-20 13:33
Percy I think I am your twin or clone. I agree with everything you said.

At this point all I want for Sam is his own friend whose like a brother for him. Someone who WONT hold all his mistakes against him years and years later. I mean Dean has 'issues' that everyone else is working to help him see is simply bad perception - his brother(s) his best friend.

And yet who does Sam have? Sam had to reach whatever peace he has with his own issues alone...well possibly with a stranger but is ANYONE even sure she is real? I can't even say Amielia is real in any way.

You know I think i would have preferred Sam to become the Big Bad way back in Season 4. At least he would have gotten a POV. We would have learned far more about Sam, his motivations and his thoughts and feelings. Totally would have been worth it when Dean kills him.

And JAred would have killed it.
st50
# st50 2012-11-20 13:37
I don't disagree, percysowner. I hate that Sam is being sidelined in favour of Benny and Cas. I really wanted to see/hear more of/from him, especially in this last episode...

... but it's ALWAYS been Dean's POV. That seems to be the basic premise of the show, and while I hate it and acknowledge that it NEVER actually shows Sam in a positive light, I've come to expect it. And to expect Sam's story will be briefly touched on later in the season.

Bottom line for me: I can't worry about what other fans think of Sam. I KNOW he is not selfish, nor "the bad brother", nor unworthy, a jerk, or any other negative description those "fans" can come up with. For me, it's all about how I perceive Sam... And while I am eternally left wanting to know more of things from his side, they haven't destroyed him for me, yet.

Sam's the one I relate to. Perhaps because he's the one everyone takes for granted, under-estimates , ignores..... And yet he is always the one who holds on, supports all he meets, and sees the good in everyone.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-20 15:48
I understand that you don't care about what other fans think of Sam. I do have my own opinions about Sam and what others feel don't affect them, BUT what other fans feel and express affects the writing for Sam and the show IMHO and this is why I am concerned.

Dean's POV moved to the forefront in season 2 so that when he made the Deal, we would understand the pressures that pushed him there. Season 3 intended, I believe, to do the same for Sam in the back half of the season and the writers strike ended that plan. So the writers decided that in season 4 Sam would be a mystery with his story being told in the background. This led to a real backlash against Sam and much support for Dean being a poor betrayed brother and Sam being unsympathetic and unworthy. Much of fandom maintained this theme and it gave the writers support for the idea that writing for Sam wasn't necessary to keep fans engaged and IMHO dropping Sam as a character became a small snowball. Season 5 made the snowball bigger. Sam finds out he is the vessel for the ultimate evil and NEVER discusses how that makes him feel. Dean gets to emote over being Michael's vessel and the we don't need Sam snowball grew bigger. This also led to much of the fandom actually complaining in Fallen Idols when Sam tried to express why he behaved the way he did in season 4. He was accused of blaming Dean and not taking responsibility. And the snowball of Sam's feelings are not only unimportant, but are resented got bigger. Season 6 had Sam soulless for half the season giving us a Sam with no emotions and in the second half, Sam couldn't access his memories because it would bring down his wall. Dean got to react to Sam being soulless, worry about Sam losing his wall, feel betrayed by Soulless!Sam and feel betrayed by Castiel. Sam got one episode, TMWKTM to even HAVE emotions, and the Sam's emotions aren't important and how dare he upset Dean by trying to find out what he did as SS snowball got even bigger. Sam's emotions were again validated by fandom as being unnecessary and selfish. That led to season 7 where Sam went through 17 episode in a psychotic state with absolutely NO indication that he had any after effects of the Cage and no discussion of what Sam was feeling emotionally after Cas stabilized him. Again, the response from fandom was annoyed that a story that had been set up from episode one was passed over, but there was not a lot of anger that Sam didn't get a POV because as the bad brother he didn't really deserve it, after all it would be more blaming poor depressed alcoholic Dean and Sam hadn't earned that right. By this season the snowball is just HUGE. It is so big that Carver and the writers feel perfectly safe in ignoring Sam's POV. They can show us Benny and Cas and Kate and Garth and Sam is not important. The people who cared have moved away from the show in many cases and as long as we get Dean the good who would never leave Cas behind in Purgatory the fans won't care about what happened to Sam because they view him so negatively that Sam is of little to no interest to the people who watch.

I care what people say on other boards, not because if changes my feelings, although I get mad for the character of Sam for not getting any understanding, but because the more people go on about hating Sam, the less chance we have of EVER seeing Sam's internal life or of having that life mean anything other than how it affects Dean.

The promos for the midseason break episode indicate that

SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!






Dean will have to choose between Benny and Sam when it looks as if Benny has returned to killing. In years past this should not have been a hard choice. But now, I'm convinced that if Sam doesn't believe in Benny he will be totally wrong and Dean will ditch him and be cheered and Sam will become even less viable as a character. Or if Dean chooses Sam, Sam will be wrong in doubting Benny and Dean's new BFF will die because of Sam and Dean will never forgive him or if by some miracle Sam is right and Dean doesn't believe him and Benny kills someone important, say Amelia, the entire focus will be on how horrible Dean feels about being wrong and the effect of Dean refusing to believe Sam will be brushed under the rug because Sam has shown himself to be a bad brother so his reactions are unimportant.

When a vocal and frankly large part of fandom repeats over and over that Sam is not liked, is the bad brother and has never had a good reason for doing anything, this give the writers the cover to not redeem or even give Sam understandable reasons for his actions. This is why I care what other fans think about Sam.
st50
# st50 2012-11-20 15:59
I hear you, Percy, and I agree. It DOES MATTER, and it DOES HURT....

I'm just tired of hurting over something I can't change. I've reached my limit there. I can't change how the show is written, I can't change how others feel, or how/if they are impacting the PTB.

I have two options.....I can either quit watching, or I can go with it and find enjoyment where I can.
But I can't keep tying myself in knots about things I have no control over.

That doesn't mean I don't agree with you 100%.

And I've got my opinions on how Dean is going to react with his "hard decision" - and it's not very favourable to Sam, so I am stealing myself for it and hoping it'll all be resolved in a way I can live with before the end.

This season is definitely going to make or break the show for me.... My goal is just to make it to the end before I decide..
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-20 17:03
I understand and I'm trying to hold out as well. With every episode that goes by where we don't get Sam, I get more discouraged. I'll try to keep the faith.
st50
# st50 2012-11-20 17:23
Quote:
I'll try to keep the faith.
Those of us in the "Give us Sams POV - THIS SEASON"group, or "Sam Camp" for lack of a better name, can try to help each other keep the faith.
:-)
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-21 02:19
Quote:
Dean's POV moved to the forefront in season 2 so that when he made the Deal, we would understand the pressures that pushed him there. Season 3 intended, I believe, to do the same for Sam in the back half of the season and the writers strike ended that plan. So the writers decided that in season 4 Sam would be a mystery with his story being told in the background. This led to a real backlash against Sam and much support for Dean being a poor betrayed brother and Sam being unsympathetic and unworthy. Much of fandom maintained this theme and it gave the writers support for the idea that writing for Sam wasn't necessary to keep fans engaged and IMHO dropping Sam as a character became a small snowball. Season 5 made the snowball bigger. Sam finds out he is the vessel for the ultimate evil and NEVER discusses how that makes him feel. Dean gets to emote over being Michael's vessel and the we don't need Sam snowball grew bigger. This also led to much of the fandom actually complaining in Fallen Idols when Sam tried to express why he behaved the way he did in season 4. He was accused of blaming Dean and not taking responsibility. And the snowball of Sam's feelings are not only unimportant, but are resented got bigger. Season 6 had Sam soulless for half the season giving us a Sam with no emotions and in the second half, Sam couldn't access his memories because it would bring down his wall. Dean got to react to Sam being soulless, worry about Sam losing his wall, feel betrayed by Soulless!Sam and feel betrayed by Castiel. Sam got one episode, TMWKTM to even HAVE emotions, and the Sam's emotions aren't important and how dare he upset Dean by trying to find out what he did as SS snowball got even bigger. Sam's emotions were again validated by fandom as being unnecessary and selfish. That led to season 7 where Sam went through 17 episode in a psychotic state with absolutely NO indication that he had any after effects of the Cage and no discussion of what Sam was feeling emotionally after Cas stabilized him. Again, the response from fandom was annoyed that a story that had been set up from episode one was passed over, but there was not a lot of anger that Sam didn't get a POV because as the bad brother he didn't really deserve it, after all it would be more blaming poor depressed alcoholic Dean and Sam hadn't earned that right. By this season the snowball is just HUGE. It is so big that Carver and the writers feel perfectly safe in ignoring Sam's POV. They can show us Benny and Cas and Kate and Garth and Sam is not important. The people who cared have moved away from the show in many cases and as long as we get Dean the good who would never leave Cas behind in Purgatory the fans won't care about what happened to Sam because they view him so negatively that Sam is of little to no interest to the people who watch. I care what people say on other boards, not because if changes my feelings, although I get mad for the character of Sam for not getting any understanding, but because the more people go on about hating Sam, the less chance we have of EVER seeing Sam's internal life or of having that life mean anything other than how it affects Dean.
I agree.Quote:
Dean will have to choose between Benny and Sam when it looks as if Benny has returned to killing. In years past this should not have been a hard choice. But now, I'm convinced that if Sam doesn't believe in Benny he will be totally wrong and Dean will ditch him and be cheered and Sam will become even less viable as a character. Or if Dean chooses Sam, Sam will be wrong in doubting Benny and Dean's new BFF will die because of Sam and Dean will never forgive him or if by some miracle Sam is right and Dean doesn't believe him and Benny kills someone important, say Amelia, the entire focus will be on how horrible Dean feels about being wrong and the effect of Dean refusing to believe Sam will be brushed under the rug because Sam has shown himself to be a bad brother so his reactions are unimportant.
I am 100% sure that Benny is going to be a vampire who drinks only animal blood.Sam is going to wrong for not trusting Benny.The creatures were bad or turned bad when Sam was trusting them and when Sam distrusts them they turn out to be good.Sam is wrong again .
vivian
# vivian 2012-11-23 09:46
There is a possibility that both Sam and Dean might be right about Benny. Say, for example, Sam is right because Benny is hidding something from Dean concerning who told him how to get out of Purgatory, but Dean is also right because Benny is not necessarily bad (he is not drinking people), he is just witholding information. Which might look as a betrayal to Dean.

Benny doesn't need to be all good, or all bad. Dean doesn't need to be all right and Sam all wrong, and vice versa.
RMF
# RMF 2012-11-23 13:07
 Quote:
There is a possibility that both Sam and Dean might be right about Benny. Say, for example, Sam is right because Benny is hidding something from Dean concerning who told him how to get out of Purgatory, but Dean is also right because Benny is not necessarily bad (he is not drinking people), he is just witholding information. Which might look as a betrayal to Dean.
That is a possibility, since one has to wonder where he got the information about the portal, not to mention the spell for hitchhiking his way out of Purgatory. Sucking a vampire soul into your arm isn't the most everyday action, even for this universe. It could be that Dean's great friendship had its basis in a deal between Benny and a party that could get him out. There may also be some awkwardness around the question of how far Benny can go in defending himself against a hunter.

Quote:
Benny doesn't need to be all good, or all bad. Dean doesn't need to be all right and Sam all wrong, and vice versa.
One would think. However, I can't love how Sam and Dean's respective shortcomings have been dealt with so far this season. Besides, Sam has made the what-if-a-monst er-is-good point about half a dozen times already in the series. He was often wrong as a way of conveying the bleakness of what he and Dean were up against and to heighten the remarkability of what happened in the Season 5 finale. Is it suddenly Dean's issue now that the viewpoint is to be validated?
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-23 13:58
Quote:
One would think. However, I can't love how Sam and Dean's respective shortcomings have been dealt with so far this season. Besides, Sam has made the what-if-a-monster-is-good point about half a dozen times already in the series. He was often wrong as a way of conveying the bleakness of what he and Dean were up against and to heighten the remarkability of what happened in the Season 5 finale. Is it suddenly Dean's issue now that the viewpoint is to be validated?
This is my big problem with Benny turning out to be the one and only vegetarian vamp that holds true to morality and has absolutely NO chance of being influenced by Eve into breaking his vegetarianism. In this scenario Dean is AGAIN the sole and only arbiter of who is a good monster and who is a bad monster and only Dean gets to make the call and it is only when Dean has issues that it becomes a subject worth addressing.

I suppose I could almost deal with Benny not drinking people if part of his deal to get out involved replacing his soul that escaped Purgatory and he intends to throw Sam in as his replacement. That might be evil enough to make Dean's judgement suspect, but even then it would annoy the heck out of me. I want Dean to be wrong if or no other reason than it will put Dean in the position of finally understanding how Sam could trust Ruby even though he knew he shouldn't.

I have heard the argument that Dean trusting Benny when he shouldn't is a repeat of Sam and Ruby and therefore it should not be don. Frankly, I still expect that Dean will be right again and Sam will be the big old jerk who must never rely on his own judgement. However, IMHO that is as much of a repeat story as Dean trusting a monster and being betrayed.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-23 13:26
Quote:
Say, for example, Sam is right because Benny is hidding something from Dean concerning who told him how to get out of Purgatory, but Dean is also right because Benny is not necessarily bad (he is not drinking people), he is just witholding information. Which might look as a betrayal to Dean.
I would not be satisfied as in this scenario benny is still good and what a coincidence it is that the vampire Dean trusts is on bunny diet...
vivian
# vivian 2012-11-23 14:14
I think that, on Dean's Bible, a betrayal is far worse than Benny drinking people.
RMF
# RMF 2012-11-23 14:48
I'm not willing to go that far, because it would speak really poorly of Dean if he put his own hurt feelings above others' safety. I admit, though, he's been acting pretty oddly in this regard this season.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-23 22:13
I don't decide if Benny is bad depending on what Dean feels...It simply depends on what benny does and Benny turning bad is simply more important than Benny not telling Dean who told him how to get out in terms of direness
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-21 02:06
Quote:
Sam's the one I relate to. Perhaps because he's the one everyone takes for granted, under-estimates, ignores..... And yet he is always the one who holds on, supports all he meets, and sees the good in everyone.
I agree
RMF
# RMF 2012-11-20 19:24
I think that the show being told from Dean's POV was inherent in the premise. We were told early on that Sam is the dilemma -- that he has a mysterious destiny from which he must be saved or he must be killed, and it is through Dean's eyes that the audience sees the mystery unraveled. I don't think it was ever meant to distance the audience from Sam or make him incomprehensibl e. It was simply a device through which to relate the story and make it more heartrending by witnessing a brother's pain. Exhibit A is the high value Kripke placed on Sam's storyline by having it be the "bad" brother who sacrificed himself to save the world in the end, not the "good" brother.

But percysowner may have a point that the unanswered shrill outcry against Sam could have led the current crop of writers to devalue Sam as a character. The first several episodes show very little thought put into making Sam's motivations or story line clear. In fact, instead of being built back up, he's taken another huge hit. By changing his point of view and ignoring much of his character history, they've made him more a prop for a favored story line or a device to illustrate Dean's own evolution. No one seems to be asking themselves what Sam would do next; they're asking themselves how he can be made to fit other agendas. I've really never had a problem with the Dean POV before this season; I've never been one to total up relative amounts of screen time or worry whose story line was most important as long as the overall tale was good. But this season, Sam simply makes no sense. I understand that some people believe that there will be a reveal somewhere down the line that will make it all better, but that's asking me to appreciate the season based on something that may happen, not anything that has.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-21 02:22
Quote:
But percysowner may have a point that the unanswered shrill outcry against Sam could have led the current crop of writers to devalue Sam as a character. The first several episodes show very little thought put into making Sam's motivations or story line clear. In fact, instead of being built back up, he's taken another huge hit. By changing his point of view and ignoring much of his character history, they've made him more a prop for a favored story line or a device to illustrate Dean's own evolution. No one seems to be asking themselves what Sam would do next; they're asking themselves how he can be made to fit other agendas. I've really never had a problem with the Dean POV before this season; I've never been one to total up relative amounts of screen time or worry whose story line was most important as long as the overall tale was good. But this season, Sam simply makes no sense. I understand that some people believe that there will be a reveal somewhere down the line that will make it all better, but that's asking me to appreciate the season based on something that may happen, not anything that has.
I agree
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-11-20 13:51
I do agree about the Dean pov it is something I have always been vehemently against because it is too detrimental for Sam .I think this season could of re-enforced the brothers relationship instead we have others thrown into the mix with both Benny and Cas being declared 'brothers'.

I think it was vital in deciding not to have Sam look for Dean that they hit the ground running with Sam,s story but it looks like we will get the continum of his story to put it in golfing terms down the back 9 after the hiatus. My experience with that is it generally is a little to late regardless of what Jeremy Carver's idea is with Sam .

I have liked some parts of this season but again it seems Sam,s story is the downer.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-20 19:04
My interest in Supernatural has sunk to an all-time low. I just don't care anymore. Even my interest in chatting about the show has declined tremendously since the last episode. What can I say? A good story just isn't going to be told for Sam. I accept that. He has been thrown under the bus where he'll stay until someone sees fit to give him a story. I doubt I'll care at that point b/c I don't care now. Haha!

As I told someone else, it's all about the journey for me. Even if the angels are messing w/Sam's mind or his memories and he did intend to search for Dean or want to search for him, the story to get to that point has NOT (so far) been entertaining to me. It's been tortuous and simply unenjoyable. A show should be fun to watch. Supernatural has not been fun to watch (for me) this year. I'm getting much more enjoyment and pleasure out of The Walking Dead and Dexter than Supernatural, which used to be my favorite show.

Anyway, I think I'm all "talked" out re: the show.

Happy Thanksgiving to all my fellow Americans!!!
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2012-11-21 04:48
hi st50!
Quote:
It DOES MATTER, and it DOES HURT....

I'm just tired of hurting over something I can't change. I've reached my limit there. I can't change how the show is written, I can't change how others feel, or how/if they are impacting the PTB.

I have two options.....I can either quit watching, or I can go with it and find enjoyment where I can.
But I can't keep tying myself in knots about things I have no control over.
This is exactly my dilemma, what you here desrcibed, and man, it hurts so bad..still. I am struggling with it, but I am not enjoying the episodes, although still wait for something good to come regarding Sam.

And I finally really bow down to Erik Kripke for those 5 years!! Thank you EK!

Back then when I joined internet to read about SPN I read hateful comments about Sam and that Dean should just ditch him I exploded about that, I saw the relationship as the heart, but I was angry and resentful at EK that Sam didn't get much POV. In the end EK redeemed Sam in a big and hearbreaking, amazing way (where I still get teary eyes thinking of it) .

But for me this was the end of that relationship (now in retrospective)!

Since Sam came back from the cage, nobody dares to write for Sam. there is unfortunately no EK anymore. I think he did know Sam the best. I think that tptb failed in the characterizatio n of Sam, I think they rely to much on the obvious character of Dean!

Nobody is daring to develope Sam's character for real. His flasbacks are still some blurred memories we don't know if they are real or not, he now is presented as if he wouldn't be part of the core of this series, but I also have to say as much as Dean is in the center of the series and his character traits, I am absolutely not fond of him right now, and Sam's side is ducked in deep waters, where its cold and not warm.. i just feel the brothers relationship not as a win-win situation anymore, but as something what needs to be cut now! (Says someone who ALWAYS wanted them together against the rest of the world.)

It is not there anymore, they both are behaving and bitching, they don't enjoy themselfes they are resenting, angry, putting others over the own blood,....and I don't feel this was needed. SamnDean are not here anymore, they are only shells from themselfes, they have lost their family bond! Dean throwing away the amulet was the end of that relationship . And the reasons why they are HOW they are (for me) are not reasonable, and they are not connecting me to the brothers as "the heart".

My main problem is how they write Sam or not write him. I would maybe now enjoying watching Sam apart from Dean, getting really great insight into his character, and be able to feel and see Sam's side of the coin.

I now remember JC said he didn't want to part the brothers because people wanted to see them together. Now this is what happened with this knowledge I would have preferred to show the brothers different experiences f´rom the place the S7 finale ended.

I now think SG did a way better job in intertwining the brothers relationship into the series and the mytharc ...and she still centered the series around Sam and Dean!


>>>>this is maybe spoiler
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2012-11-21 04:50
my comment didn't fit, this is the last part


>>>>this is maybe spoiler
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2012-11-21 04:52
POSSIBLE SPOILER

...and when it comes to Benny, I already see the scenario playing out in my mind that Sam is suspicious of Benny and wants to prove Dean that he is right, but but Sam no you are wrong Sam because you are Sam (remember that). I already see a judging, condemning self-righteous look from Dean to Sam, because Sam didn't do the right and didn't trust Dean with Benny! And that the real killing creature was another vampire (where Benny tried to stop) and Dean with his bestest blood brother Benny are now doing justice! Sam will come out like dirt from this episode. Of course I don't waht really will happen, but it is just that, I have no faith anymore what they do to Sam that it will give his decisions absolut no back up or meaty substance
dinkwerks
# dinkwerks 2012-11-21 10:38
Wow, there are so many POV's here, it's hard to read them all. I would like to post a "WHAT IF" here (I didn't see it when I skimmed down all the comments, but there are so many I may have missed it). What if, Amelia was an angel sent to keep Sam occupied while Dean was in Purgatory? They have been known to alter reality, and maybe they did that to Sam to keep him from looking for Dean. After A Slice Of Kevin, I'm thinking that the angel are messing around with the Winchester's again.
And yes, they need to give Sam some more air time and in depth characterizatio n. At least he is standing up to Dean in this season, not being so much of a door mat.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-11-23 05:57
While talking with a co-worker today and after watching 8.01 yesterday, something occured to me.
In the FB, where we see Sam bringing the dog into the clinic, I think, we get one of the most telling bits of information about what is/was actually going on with him.

Sam is FREAKED. He is completely freaked out, almost in tears, panicking and agressive.
Because of an injured dog.

Excuse me?
Sam Winchester, who calmly took on the devil, for whom Ghost, Demons, Angels and killing people are daily business?

Sam who is brilliant and absolutely capable at solving problems, is panicking, freaked out and almost in tears, because he hit a dog?

HOW exactly, is that normal, healthy or even sane bevahiour for him?

It reminds me of someone breaking into tears, because of spilled milk. Someone literally at the end of their strength. Someone curting a mental breakdown.

When was the last time, we actually saw Sam that scared?

No, Sam did not just drive around, hit a dog, hook up with a girl.
Sam was completely and totally broken.
ANd what he really did, was go back to the basics, the basest things in life:
A rood above your head, food, a simple and very easy job and a dog.

And i think, if there´s something, that really and truly saved Sam, it was Riot. Therapy dog anyone? Someone, who forces you to get up n the morning, who wont let you stay in bed for days on end, who draws you out of depression and axiety and pain?

I even think, Amelia might have noticed, I mean, it was hard not to, how freaked and broken he was, and that´s why she made him take the dog.
And saved him with it.


THoughts anyone?
dinkwerks
# dinkwerks 2012-11-23 08:49
Actually, when you think about it (and I haven't gone back and looked at last show of season 7), Sam looked freaked out when everyone disappeared and he was left standing there in the lab.
st50
# st50 2012-11-24 11:36
Hey Fluffy2107.
The idea of Sam being at his limit, and/or having had some sort of breakdown has been one we've been floating around for awhile.
Great minds, and all that. :-)

I really want to know which Sam is going to appear in the next few episodes...
We've had panicked/freake d out Sam at least twice (dog, Dean with vampires), we've seen detached, oddly calm Sam quite a bit (insert PTSD speculation here), we've seen manic/angry Sam a couple of times (Blood Brother/ Southern comfort), and we've seem concerned and caring Sam a few times (Amelia, Dean seeing Cas)....

Which aspect of Sam is the dominant aspect this season?
kerinda h
# kerinda h 2012-11-24 13:02
WOW this is just WOW there is not much to say right is that my heart is breaking right now over this I was reading all you guys comments and it makes me not to want to see this show ever again or like it anymore it hurts a sam fan to hear all this. 1st off its the writers that really piss me off the most they do not know how to write for sam anymore and that sucks 2nd it JC he needs to do something but will he? hell no thats why I miss EK he knew what to do with sam and how to write for him and 3rd is I think jared should get off this show he is better then this and but he is staying true to the show and thats great for me that he cares about his fans to stay with so long. I am just sick of it how OOC sam is right now and this and that it is really getting sad and I love the show I really do but if the writers keep this up no season 9 for me I am done.
st50
# st50 2012-11-27 15:37
Off topic call for help:

For those of you who are Jared/Sam fans:

His charity is within 400 votes of winning a large sum of cash, with only a little over a day left to vote. You can only vote once a day, so if you want to do something nice for a cause he supports, please come on out and help win it for him. (This is the one Misha and Jensen have both already won for their charities).
http://celebcharitychallenge.org/
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-27 16:29
He has moved into the lead!
dinkwerks
# dinkwerks 2012-11-27 17:36
I voted
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-27 17:45
That girl's fans are mobilizing on Twitter...
st50
# st50 2012-11-27 17:57
So glad that so many are voting! He's currently ahead by 800 or so votes! But they won't let it go without a battle, so he'll need all the votes we can muster. Keep voting as you can, everyone!
Let's do this for JP and his charity A Dog's Life Rescue, just like we've done for Misha and Jensen and theirs.

Yay for Supernatural Fans!
aelaine
# aelaine 2012-11-27 17:50
I have been voting,now I am voting with all email addresses ha, was so glad to see today that he is finally at #1. keep voting! :-)
st50
# st50 2012-11-27 17:59
Quote:
I have been voting,now I am voting with all email addresses ha, was so glad to see today that he is finally at #1. keep voting! :-)
:-)
dinkwerks
# dinkwerks 2012-11-29 09:42
He WON the contest for his charity.
st50
# st50 2012-11-29 09:49
Quote:
He WON the contest for his charity.
YEAH!!!! Way to go Supernatural Family!!!!
That's all 3 of them! Misha, Jensen, and now Jared!!!
I (heart) this group
dinkwerks
# dinkwerks 2012-11-29 09:53
I was going back this am to vote for him again and the contest was over....and JaRED had won it.
dinkwerks
# dinkwerks 2012-12-03 12:59
Ok, we all helped Jared P. win his charity @ BiLLe Celeb Challenge. Now let help Danneel with her charily....The Hero Project. Let get the vote out for her.
st50
# st50 2012-12-03 17:54
According to twitter, Jensen has declined his win, which means (as they also confirmed on twitter) his charity will NOT be receiving the money. Not cool. Not gonna vote any more for any of them.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-03 18:48
Why did he do that? What is his charity anyway?
st50
# st50 2012-12-03 18:53
According to the BillE Celeb Challenge twitter, he's too busy with work. They don't know more. (so neither do we).... It was for Down Syndrome Dallas.
st50
# st50 2012-12-03 19:15
I know this doesn't belong on this article, but here's what we "know":

Copied from @celebcharityc :
" a winner has 30 days to accept/decline. If declined, it can't be undone. If accepted, then the meet can happen within 1 year."

They state that Jensen's team were aware of this, and yet he declined. Makes ZERO sense to me.
Hoping Jensen's team will respond.

(And hoping Jared doesn't decline his win.)
dinkwerks
# dinkwerks 2012-12-03 22:14
Rats and here I thought I was doing something good
st50
# st50 2012-12-03 22:21
I think it's still a good thing. Don't understand what went wrong. Hoping someone will clarify.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-03 22:21
What does winning involve? I'm not sure how winning money for a charity could involve a lot of work on Jensen's part.

It kind of sucks that he entered the contest knowing it involved "something" on is part, he wins, and now no longer wants to do whatever that is. Why enter the contest in the first place?
st50
# st50 2012-12-03 22:29
To be clear, Jensen didn't enter it. My understanding is that a fan nominates a celebrity and a charity they think he or she would endorse. Since JA has already done stuff for this charity, I doubt that is the problem. But JA didn't agree to do anything.

No clue what happened. My understanding is that he only has to 'officially receive' the award... like when they presented Misha's at the con.
Maybe it has to do with tax liability? Heaven only knows. I'm grasping at straws here. I'm sure there'll be some sort of announcement from JA's side, eventually.

Edited to add: This really doesn't belong on this thread, and we don't really know anything at this point. Not blaming JA here. Sorry!
aelaine
# aelaine 2012-12-03 22:37
Thanks, our reply's must have been at the same time as I didn't see this, agree it doesn't belong here, maybe Alice will remove it.
aelaine
# aelaine 2012-12-03 22:34
I am having mixed feelings about this. I mean, did he know he was entered and if so, why wouldn't he let the fans know to not vote? Does his Charity know about this, how do they feel about it . It feels rude and I don't know, wish we had more info. I thought I was helping but now I wonder....
If anyone finds anything out let us know, would like to feel better about it!
aelaine
# aelaine 2012-12-05 01:44
Never-mind, my question was already answered , he did not know he was entered, fan nominated, he can't be expected to have any prior knowledge of us even voting! I am sure there is a good explanation, as he wouldn't just just say, yeah, no thanks. But i won't be voting in Bille anymore as it appears they don't give any of the money to the chosen charity unless a public presentation is given and I am sure other strings we are unaware of. Ok just wanted that out there lol
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-06 04:35
Dusting off this old thread.. because... we got some good new clues on what´s happening with Sam in Citizen Fang.

On the surface, he looks ok. He took a year off, had a girl (or not... or.. WHATEVER)
He was doing ok, calm, collected, taking alot of crap from Dean, but not bitching back at him.
Hey, he looks, like found his Zen.

That thing with Amelia? And Don? Yeah,w as tragic, but he´s doing ok.
There was a girl... and then there wasn´t.
That´s life folks.

But he´s doing ok. doing his job, closing the doors of hell ´n stuff.
He IS doing ok. And he can convince everybody else of it too!


That is until Dean is out of eyesight, or Amelia is not right there. Until Sam has time to think.

Then he panics.

Dean is out, he doesn´t know where, with someone, Sam doesn´t know, fighting.
Sam spins out of control.

One text from Amelia, that she needs help?
He´s completely and utterly out of it.
And that thing with checking on her online?
Concerned, not stalking, guys, merely concerned.

Sam is hanging by on a thread here.

When Dean was out of the picture, and he thought he was dead and Amelia was right there.... he was ok.
He was doing alright.

But now Dean´s back and he has his own set of issues.
And Amelia is far away.
And Dean has this new buddy, Sam knows nothing about and who is a Vampire.
And Dean is going off on his own.

And Sam is losing it.
He doesn´t know, where to turn first.
He doesn´t know how to protect either Dean or Amelia.

He´s living in a constant state of fear of losing any of the two.
And I don´t think, he can keep it together much longer.

Oh, but he´s acting all calm and poised so well, isn´t he?

He´s taking the crap, Dean throws his way.
He´s playing all cool and detached and untouchable.
Showing no weakness.
Supporting Dean to find his footing again.

But inside he´s breaking.
And at some point he will lose it.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-10 14:58
Fluffy, I agree with your interpretation, but more to the point I want to say that I love the way you post in beat poetry :D
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-10 13:13
From Ramblings on Citizen Fang Thread
Quote:
Interesting take, percysowner.
I assumed it fit, because they seemed to be showing all kinds of things that were not Sam's fault as being betrayals/choices... and Sam DID choose to take on Lucifer, and therefore he 'chose' the crazies. LOL

So Dean can forgive Sam's psychotic breaks because that situation reinforced his need for Dean.
Soullessness emphasized his independence, and therefore lack of need.
Then the idea of betrayal all boils down to times when Sam didn't need or want Dean's protection and leadership. I can see that, I guess.
But that suggests Dean's true weakness is not Sam himself -(as they keep saying, their weakness is each other) - but the need to be needed, with Sam being the designated inferior in the relationship, doesn't it? Ouch. I don't actually think it goes that far. That's an incredible oversimplification of their relationship, isn't it? I hope?
It is a simplification, but I think it fits Dean's behavior. The things he rants about in Southern Comfort are Sam turning to Ruby, Sam not looking for him and Sam being Soulless. Although he doesn't mention it in his rant, we also saw him resent Sam going to college not only in season one, but also when he came back and found that Sam was applying to colleges again.

Dean is a good guy, but his abandonment issues are enormous. The one way to keep someone from leaving you is to have them need you. Sam trusting Ruby over Dean was a betrayal, but it was also a time when Sam made decisions Dean didn't approve of and wasn't asking for Dean's approval. Sam was stronger at that time than he had ever been. Granted it was due to his addiction, but Dean didn't know that until late in the game. Dean didn't know how Sam was getting stronger, but what he did know was that Sam was able to save the hosts and exorcise the demons, that Sam was able to save an entire town from being killed by either the angels or Sam Hain by getting rid of Sam Hain. Dean didn't trust Sam's powers, but the only real reasons were they made Dean feel icky and the Angels said that God said so. Currently IRL there are groups of people who feel that way about birth control or homosexuality for pretty much the same reasons, it is unnatural and God doesn't like it.

Resenting Sam for being Soulless makes no sense, he had nothing to do with that, it was done to him. But the result was Soulless!Sam didn't need or want Dean.

Dean's dismissal of Amelia (calling her a girl with no feeling for her as a person) speaks of a resentment that Sam had a life where he was functioning without Dean.

Not looking for Dean is the one truly justifiable resentment Dean has. It is terribly OOC to me and I can 100% agree with Dean resenting and blaming Sam for that.

Dean is a good guy but he wants to be right all the time. John putting so much responsibility on Dean fostered this. Taking care of a young child while your only parent is hunting means that if you make the wrong decision then the child is in real danger. Dean had to be right in his choices or he would be a failure and Sam could die. At that point Dean could doubt his choices and drive himself crazy believing every decision was as wrong as leaving Sam in Something Wicked or he could decide that he learned his lesson, honed his instincts to where they were infallible and then act as if he were infallible. It is a defense mechanism for the unbearable pressure John put on him. Unfortunately, it breaks down when Sam has a mind of his own. Then Dean either has to admit that he is wrong, and that is scary because if he is wrong even once then Sam will die or he has to dismiss Sam's disagreements, which feels a whole lot better. Sam totally screwing up with Ruby supports Dean's idea that he really does know better than Sam.

When Sam strikes out on his own Dean gets scared. He can't doubt himself because that is just too frightening. Sam can get Dean to see his side of things, but he has to work Dean around to it. Show him examples, lay out the logic, have his blood dripped into Lenore's mouth and have Dean see her not react. Sam just can't say this is what I think is right and have Dean follow. The saddest line in Levee for me was when Sam said, I've followed you and trusted you all my life, just this once trust me. Dean couldn't and he was right about Ruby, but if he had trusted Sam, he would have been there to talk Sam down from the drinking the nurse ledge.

I'm not saying Dean's evil or bad, just that John and their lives made him massively screwed up and it is simply easier for Dean to keep thinking of Sam as the little brother who can't make proper decisions and who betrays him by thinking on his own. Anything else risks Dean being abandoned or Sam being dead.
st50
# st50 2012-12-10 13:58
Thanks, Percy, for a well thought out response.

I'm kind of waiting for someone who sees Dean's side better to weigh in here, because I'd really like clarification from the other side.

A lot of what you say here, I agree with, Percy. But my problem is that while I love both brothers, I have always thought I understood Sam better (even without his POV).

I have to believe their relationship is deeper than the idea of it being based so strongly on Dean's abandonment issues. But that seems to be all the writers are giving us this season.

On the other hand, Sam's relationship with Dean is so often shown to be based almost solely on big-brother worship....

Somebody else want to add to this?
Please?
st50
# st50 2012-12-10 14:45
I'm just going to add this, so you understand what I'm searching for....
Before this season, I've never questioned the brother bond. It's always been so obvious to me that they were over-the-top obsessive about each other, and had been all their lives. They were, in fact, each others weakness. More than siblings. Soul-mates. Not sexually, you understand, but bound through eternity. One couldn't live without the other. Michael and Lucifer. Love and hate. Black and white. Opposite sides of one coin.

This season, with the idea of Sam not looking for Dean, we've lost that obsession. Presumably, Sam didn't NEED to look for Dean, like he has in the past. He moved on.. hit a dog, got a girl. He wasn't ok, but he was dealing.

Now that Dean's back, the two are on opposite pages in everything, but without the obsession that held them together. The only bond seems to be the task at hand. (other than that they are the top two best hunters alive).

So, I've been thinking about their relationship and what keeps them tied to each other - not separating and living their own lives, like normal siblings? And this leads to the question... what is/was their relationship truly based on? Blood ties alone? Fate/Destiny?
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-12-10 16:18
st50, I'll take a stab clarifying Dean's POV, but I couldn't find the original discussion (I've been busy and will need to catch up).

The way I see Dean's resentment is this season is based completely on hurt. He wants Sam by his side. When he got back from Purgatory, he released Benny and went to find Sam. He told Sam that he thinks his place in this life is by his side. Which has pretty much been is attitude since the beginning of the show (with the exception, for obvious reason in S5).

So when he got back and Sam hadn't even looked for him, it crushed him. I think he has always had thoughts that Sam didn't care as much about him as he did about about Sam. Now he had proof. So being Dean ( and probably most men -or most people even), he deals with his hurt by lashing out and constantly making snide comments.

And all that hurt and anger bring up all those old resentments that he had never fully dealt with. I don't think he really "held on" to them so much as pushed them did and never dealt with them after Sam's death, because he was barely hanging on as it was. Then Sam comes back and is all wrong and he can't trust him and the resentments start working their way to the surface again only to be pushed back down with he finds out it's not really Sam.

And rationally he knows it wasn't Sam, but emotionally he would have had weeks of resentment building when he didn't know but he pushed that down with as the rest.

He had half a season to try to rebuild their relationship before Cas' betrayal. That would have hit a lot of those same buttons. And he spent most of S7 dealing with those issues and not being able to fully trust Sam because he was losing his mind.

So all those resentments being makes perfect sense to me. Not because Sam deserves them but because Dean has taken one hit after another and has never dealt with any of it. He just tells himself he's over it until the next thing hits and it dredges it ALL back up. Which is what I think Sam not looking for him did.

If Sam had said he looked but failed, I honestly think Dean probably would have been happy that he found some sort of a normal life. But without really explaining to Dean what he went through, Dean is left with the only explanation of Sam doesn't care as much about him.

But Dean can't harp on that, it would look sort of pathetic. So he harps on Sam not hunting. I seriously hear you gave up on me every time he mentions not hunting.

I see them as platonic soulmates too. Yes co-dependent obviously. But I don't see this as a bad thing with the lives they live. If you're constantly going into dangerous situations, it's helpful to know the other person NEEDS you to keep living. Yes it has been destructive sometimes. IE Dean selling his soul and Sam drinking demon blood (I don't think he would have done that without being so lost without Dean), but it also helps to keep them fighting and to keep both of them alive to fight another day. Or to make the ultimate sacrifice and save the world at the same time.

Which is why Sam's behavior has been so strange to me this season, because I've always seen his need to be with Dean as just as great (perhaps even more so) as Dean need to have him around. That hasn't been evident so far this season. But I'm still of the belief that SOMETHING happened during that time period that we just haven't seen yet. I think it has to do with the angels.

But worse case scenario everything is exactly how it has been presented with no twists, than I would need much more complete explanation as to why. Like what happened in those months up to meeting Amelia.

I don't know if this is exactly what you were looking for though.
st50
# st50 2012-12-10 16:31
Thanks, Kelly.
That's closer to what I'm needing.... It's Sam's not looking that has started me off down this road in the first place. I totally understood (or thought I did) the obsessive co-dependent relationship from both sides.

With Sam not looking, we don't have that any more.... and I'm grasping to try to understand what this relationship really is now - from both sides. And whether I had it wrong all along.
We got looking at the things Dean brought out in SC as betrayals over on Nicole's review of Citzen Fang and why he wasn't feeling betrayed by Halluci!Sam.... . (Which is why we moved the discussion)... Percy suggested it was because Hallucinating Sam still needed Dean, while Soulless Sam didn't.

Thanks for your explanation, though. That agrees with how I've seen Dean (and he's making more sense to me than Sam is :P ).
st50
# st50 2012-12-10 17:30
So what we're left with, for the brother relationship, is mutual love and admiration - tinged with control issues on both sides.

But it no longer seems to be the obsessive "can't live without you, save you at any cost, must sacrifice myself so you'll live" kind of love that they used to have (because, let's face it, they've both managed without the other now).

Is that how you guys see it? (yes, it's still bugging me. :o :D )
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-12-10 20:18
st50, I see the relationships a bit differently, and that leads to some of my dissatisfaction with this year's Sam story.

I think Eric Kripke laid out continuing personal arcs for Sam and Dean and when those arcs come to an end, the show is also at an end, because Sam and Dean are the core, not the quest nor the mysteries.

I think Dean's arc was set in motion by his dad, who because he himself could not be both hunter and caregive, gave Dean both those responsibilites at a ridiculously young age. And Dean had to be perfect at both. In "Something Wicked," John see his last minute rescue as saving both his boys. He saw it as Dean failing his responsibility to Sam and to hunting, meaning he was responsible for every person that Shriga killed afterward.

When Sam ran away, not only did Dean have nightmares about Sam being dead, John blamed him for messing up. Dean has spent his life being pulled in two by conflicting drives: the need to be a caregiver/prote ctor and the need to be a hunter. They don't play well together and Dean suppresses one side or the other--except for the need to protect Sam.

I think Dean's arc is to integrate both of his drives, so he isn't pulled apart by them. Some of that comes from letting go of the crippling guilt he was feeling, but Sam is another and most important part.

Loving Sam has forced Dean to confront his own tendency to black and white thinking, which taken to extremes will make him a monster like Gordon. Benny is currently the person making Dean really think about his definition of morality, but Sam has usually been the catalyst to force Dean to live in the grey areas and refuse easy definitions.

Which is why I find it very jarring to see Sam using the black and white definitions of monster.

Sam's personal arc I think is to face the parts of himself that scare him, rather than run from them. Sam's leaving for Stanford had many reasons, but we did find out that one level, he was running from himself. He was trying to be safe from his own internal demons, the rage he didn't understand.

So it's no surprise he told Dean in Skin that he didn't fit into Stanford any better than his family. No matter where you run, there you are. I don't think Sam has ever been a normal guy just wanting to go to school and be a lawyer. He's always known there was something different about himself and it scared him.

And the "normal" life he had at Stanford was based on lies. Dean points out to him none of his friends really know him, and Skin makes the point again. Sam's friend asks him if Jess knew what he did, and Sam has to answer, "No." She was seriously involved, probably going to be married to, a guy who hid very important parts of himself from her.

I have issues looking at Sam's desire to return to school and have a relationship in this arc as some kind of return to his real desires, because I don't think those earlier desires were some kind of "pure" Sam.

I think his journey is to realize he cannot run from the parts of himself that scare him. I don't believe for a minute Sam needs to be part of a normal life to be safe from monsters or demons. I don't think he was scared to go after Crowley when he left Kevin. I think he wants to be safe from being Lucifer's vessel, from having demon blood, from being a pawn of fate.

Which is why I have issues looking at the relationship with Amelia as some kind of maturity arc showing what Sam really wants. I think Sam needs what he has always needed: someone who knows the best of him and the worst of him and loves him no matter what. I really doubt Amelia could ever understand Sam kidnapping a nurse and drinking her blood. Sam and Dean have lived a singluar life. I will be really ticked if the first five seasons of the show are completely gone from Sam's arc and drinking buckets of demon blood did not change him.

I think both boys will never have the option of settling down and living a normal life. I think Kripke crafted them to have differing strengths and flaw,s so as a team they add up to more than the sum of their parts, and what they need to integrate the parts of themselves that hurt them, they get from each other.

Dean's love for Sam does have abandonment issues mixed in and big brotherness that needs to take a step back. But ultimately, Sam's needs to know Dean loves him because Dean knows everything he is capable of. Dean anchors him to his humanity, which played out in season six.

Dean needs Sam to keep him questioning what he's doing, to care about the morality even when it's difficult--whic h keeps him human.

So it bothers me this season to see Sam presented as if he doesn't need anything from Dean, though he loves him. I don't believe the relationship with Amelia, based on both running from emotional work they need to do and coming with communication and alcohol issues on Amelia's part, is healthy for him or that Amelia could ever understand the parts of Sam he hides.

But if the story is going to go with Sam really wanting to leave hunting because he truly wants the life he has with Amelia, it seems to me Sam's arc is then over, because he's integrated what he needs to and just needs Dean to let go of him.

I'm not sure where that leaves him in this story.
st50
# st50 2012-12-10 20:52
Hi Gerry,
That's a really good analysis, too.
A lot of your points mirror my own feelings quite well.
I guess I've got a lot of thinking to do.
I'm no less confused, but have lots to think about! :-)
Thanks to you and Percy and Kelly and Leah for responding!
That should get me through hellatus! ;-)
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-12-10 21:11
Thanks st, and hopefully you got that "John see his last minute rescue" is supposed to be "John didn't see his last minute rescue . . " Gotta love those typos!
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-12-10 23:17
Gerry, I agree with everything you said I think -it was an excellent analysis, especially of Dean. It bothers me to see Sam not needing anything from Dean as well. But I do think that is a deliberate false perception they have created. Because I don't see how they show could function without the bond between the brothers, at least in the long term.

I want them to change and grown, as they already have over the seasons, but I don't think maturity necessarily means them growing apart, as I've read several places.

I think they were on course for a fairly healthy relationship in the first three seasons, despite codependent issues. Sure Dean was bossy and Sam reacted poorly to that sometimes. Sam hid things about himself that he feared and Dean responded poorly to that sometimes. But they both love, respected, trusted and listened one other.That is the type of maturity I would love to see them get back to.

The only thing they couldn't handle was the others death, but quite frankly that is part of what makes the show so compelling to watch. That connection is perhaps a little unhealthy but it is the heart of the show. So why I don't want to see a repeat necessarily of past mistakes (ie selling soul/drinking DB) I think having one move on so quickly from the others "death", if that is actually what they are doing, is a mistake. (Sorry, most of this is not so much in response to yours but a reaction to several things I've in various reviews, about how Sam's fans should just accept this response and move on-I just got on a roll respond to you.)
E
# E 2012-12-12 09:05
I'm going to jump in with a late response. I love your analysis Gerry and I think in many ways you are right on track. I do think Kelly is right too though. If Sam's current story arc is just to be happy with what he has with Amelia and that Dean just needs to let him go, then you are correct in that his storyline is finished and he has no place in the show. But I also think that Kelly is correct in that, this is what Sam may believe at the moment, but there is more going on. I think that Sam's panic responses are a part of this and an indicator that there is more going on with him under the surface.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-10 19:38
Kelly, that is one of the best comments I've read this season in regards to Dean's perspective. I've been saying that hurt is driving Dean to lash out. Not waning love for Sam. He was all pumped up and looking forward to hopping in the car and do what he loves with the person he loves most. Well, not so fast.....! Ah Dean. Poor Sam
emmau
# emmau 2012-12-10 20:13
I applaud your entire comment, Kelly. I think that was a wonderful bit of analysis on where Dean's head is at this point in the season.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-12-10 23:27
Thanks st50, Leah and emmau, I had trouble figuring Dean last year, but the reason I haven't spent endless hours obsessing about him this year (like I have Sam) is because he DOES seem more easily understandable this season. I may not totally agree with all his reactions but can completely sympathize him. Now that could be all wrong maybe they have something else totally in mind, but that definitely my read on him.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-10 15:25
Very nice comment, percysowner!! I think Dean needs to feel in control ,even more than"wants" to feel in control His whole life has been defined by taking charge and taking care of his brother. He recognizes this and makes stabs at letting Sam grow up and make his own decision, not very successfully usually. Good analysis of why he is the (frustrating) way he is sometimes. And at his core he IS a good guy!
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-11 08:11
I came across this article on www.givememyremote.com., where Carver is discussing his gamble over Sam's new relationship. There is a response by Albinia on 1 Oct, 2012 in which she gives her reasons as to why Sam should not have any further relationships on SPN. It makes for interesting reading (cannot verify some of her reasons so am quoting the entire response)

Quote:
While I’m at it, maybe I’ll just enumerate a bit:
“I think being away, when I came back, I looked at it with those [fresh] eyes and went, “Why wouldn’t he [have a relationship]?â € And then someone reminded me, “Because…th ere are about 15 million people who don’t want him to.” [Laughs] ”
Amusing though your little dig at fangirls is, Mr. Carver, here are a few reasons you might consider.
1. Sam has seen three women with whom he was romantically/se xually involved die in front of his eyes.
2. Of those three, one died because she knew him, in the exact same (somewhat disturbingly sexualized) way his mother had died (Jess). One Sam shot and killed himself (Madison). One he helped Dean kill (Ruby).
3. Canon has all but stated that Lucifer raped Sam in the Cage.
4. Sam’s last long-term relationship was with a demon who was wearing a dead woman’s body. He was addicted to her blood. She manipulated him and lied to him. He, in turn, made terrible, destructive choices and did terrible things in the context of that relationship.
5. We have never seen Sam!Sam involved with a woman since Ruby’s death. However, a part of Sam’s self, split off from his central identity, had multiple sexual encounters in Sam’s body, and Sam has those memories.
6. Nor was that Sam’s only experience of being split from his self/body. OK, it’s just my opinion that all those experiences would be likely to impact his sexuality, but maybe for the sake of argument we should mention only those that has some sexual component: Meg sexually menacing Jo while possessing Sam’s body, Gary using Sam’s body to have sex with a dominatrix.
7. The last time a woman showed an interest in Sam she drugged him, kidnapped him, and married him while his consent was compromised. For all that this was a comic episode, it took place at a time when Sam was struggling with reality issues and processing the memory of 180 years of torture.
8. On a minor note, Sam now knows that his prom date was also a demon.
Now, I realize that all this may be confusing. And I honestly don’t think that any writer on earth could fully tackle the baggage Sam would bring to a relationship. But I sincerely hope, given the weight that Carver is resting on the Amelia storyline for his Sam characterizatio n, that he didn’t just say “Why not?” and take none of this into account. If that is what he did, I am at least impressed by his brazenness in admitting it.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-11 10:54
I totally agree that all of these are reasons why Sam would not have a relationship. The fact that Carver is apparently ignoring this completely is very distressing. It is as if he has no interest in Sam's past, his character development or how any normal human being would act.

It's like not looking for Dean, I could understand Carver saying why wouldn't Sam finally try a normal life, but not that he never spent one second looking for Dean. I can buy Sam settling as a repair man in a motel, owning a dog, thinking about going back to college and going for a relatively normal life. But getting involved with a woman after all the trauma associated with relationships in his life doesn't compute. At the very least, I hope they make sure Sam has had a vasectomy, because I can not comprehend that he would ever risk extending the Lucifer vessel genetic line. This probably means that Carver is going to have Amelia be pregnant, just to show us how irresponsible Sam really is.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-11 13:52
Bringing this over from sweetondean's review

Quote:
Theres been a lot of fnas over the past few years complaining that Sam never really apologised to Dean for everything that he did and continues to do, and that Dean has always given Sam a feww pass because Dean's not allowed to mad at anyone and always has to do the apologising. I wont if Jeremy Carver is bascially bring all Sam's wrongs to the forefront in order for that apology to happen? There are plenty of fans who thing Sam is a crapypy brother to Dean and will be delighted Dean is finally telling Sam so, I think JC is basically reiterating that point, trying to give the fans wha they want in the hopes that he may then be able to rebuild the relationship which has been seen as broken by many for too long. Perhaps he's trying to deconstruct Sam in having him realise shat a shit brother he is and a crappy human being so he can rebuild him into the brother Dean wants and the fans think he deserves?

Will Sam be sorry, gung ho for hunting, listen to Dean and follow Dean's instincts on everything by the end of the season? I can see the writers heading that way, obviously they need to get Sam to be over Amelai and realise he doesnt want normal first.
I really hope this is not what Carver is planning. For me it would be repulsive and deeply disturbing. The premise is that for the brother's relationship to heal, Sam must be finally and forever identified as having no agency of his own. He must admit that Dean and only Dean has the right to opinions and judgements. If Sam has to apologize for every act that has hurt Dean, while Dean never owns up to his own bad behaviors, then Sam is irreparably damaged as a character. Making Sam totally wrong, and deciding that he could not know what he really wants, that only Dean can make those decisions undercuts Sam to the core. Instead of a partner, he becomes a morally compromised, mentally retarded child who must check with Dean before he does anything, because he has finally bought into the idea that Sam is never right and Dean is never wrong. I'm sure the show would continue, but this would destroy it for ME.

The worst part is that it wouldn't satisfy those who think Sam hasn't done enough. Sam will be contributing nothing to the partnership. He will only be an echo of Dean. If Sam can't be trusted to make his own judgements. If he has to do what Dean wants no matter what, he is of no use as a partner. He may as well be a well trained dog who follows orders no matter what. In that case, why wold Dean need Sam? Cas can kill monsters more easily and heal any wound Dean sustains. Benny is faster and stronger because he is a vampire. The scenario you describe makes Sam worthless and fans would rightfully want Dean to have a better more useful partner.

The show has moved past the point of appeasing those who think Sam hasn't apologized enough, respected Dean enough. Making us relive all of Sam's failures and having Sam do the walk of shame will only make Sam less a part of this show. It will also be a complete slap in the face to those of us who actually like Sam.

Relationships can't be rebuilt if one person is intuitive, fair, always makes the right decision, and must be deferred to at every junction and if the other person is the scum of the earth. The only way for the relationship to be rebuilt is to return to the season one view that the brothers are individual perspectives, with individual needs, neither of whom is completely right nor completely wrong and who balance each other to make the partnership strong. Trashing Sam can not redeem him, it can only serve to diminish him.

Hades, I don't think you are personally rooting for what you have suggested. If I read your comment properly, you merely think this is the way Carver is headed. If so then I believe he has really lost perspective on the show and on the brotherly relationship.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-12-11 20:08
percysowner, I don't think it has to be that bad. I'll admit Sam saying he was wrong to Dean in the Mentalist pissed me off for the very reason you're talking about, but I think it could be really good if done right.

If he apologized for hurting Dean and going behind his back with Ruby, risking both their relationship and the world and maybe get a bit of a chance to explain WHY he did the things. But JUST as importantly confronted Dean on still holding on to all his mistakes and disregarding everything he did to make up for those mistakes.

AND Dean needs to apologizes for ALL the deliberately hurtful things he has said and done as well. The things with Dean's mistake is that while they are not as bad as Sam's (ie drinking DB and setting Lucifer free), they are more DELIBERATELY hurtful to Sam. When Sam hurts Dean it is usually (not always but usually) a byproduct of a mistake or decision. When Dean hurts Sam most of the time their is intent. He WANTS hurt Sam because he's in pain from Sam's action. And they don't really have Sam bring up those, maybe because they think they would seem petty compared to Dean's accusations. But I don't think they are.

So if they BOTH got a chance to say they are sorry and clear the air- I would love it.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-11 20:51
Yes Kelly- Personally, even though I defend Dean at times, I really don't always understand why he feels he has to lash out at Sam when HE is hurt. I know it is a defense mechanism, but it seems more appropriate for a twelve year old than a thirtysomething year old. I hope this is going to be part of the maturing that JC talks of. Your last sentence- YES PLEASE. Sorry for butting in.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-12-12 07:18
I don't think it's a good way of dealing with things, but I the 12-year-old comparison is a little harsh to me. He usually had good reasons for being upset but I would like to see the deal with their problems instead of ignoring until the next time they're bitten in the ass by them.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-13 11:25
I might have been a little harsh. I am usually very sympathetic to Dean, it is just it makes him look childish to lash out so much. Thats not to say I don't understand, I do. They do need to deal with things in a more mature way.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-11 21:22
I would like them both to apologize for what they have done, but realistically the reaction is always the same when Dean apologizes, that it is letting mean old Sam off the hook. That Dean is caving to Sam and that Sam hasn't apologized enough. I have seen these types of comments even on this board. I would love Carver to have a mutual apology, but the Dean heavy POV for so many seasons has left a large impression that Dean has nothing to apologize for and Sam can never apologize enough. For me that is sad, but it is the way things have gone up to now. I don't know how the writers can have Dean apologize in a way that will make it obvious that Dean does have things to apologize for.
Hades
# Hades 2012-12-12 08:14
You're right I dont want that but I can see it being something Carver would try to achieve on some level.

I've been saying for a few years now while reading the worst of the anti Sam contingents and more Pro Dean never ending complaining that what they want is not for Sam to be a better brother but to basically be Dean's bitch. I've seen it on this site two by a couple of posters whose underlying opinion of Sam is that he should basically play roll over, fetch and play dead when Dean says so.

Sam for me has been relegated to a plot device for the writers for several seasons now, they're telling the story of Dean Winchester and everyone around him including Sam is only important in how what they say and do affects him.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-12 11:39
I've seen that attitude as well. I think that if this is what Carver is moving to, that the show will be irreparably harmed. Just MHO.
RGNYC Rebecca
# RGNYC Rebecca 2012-12-11 14:24
Fluffy, I love your comment.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-11 15:22
So I had a thought, and believed this was the most appropriate thread for it. I apologize if this has already been discussed somewhere - there are way too many comments to read through them. Anyway, on to my thought:

It's not like Sam went looking for this normal life. It's not like he had planned it, or like he'd just been waiting for Dean to die or disappear so he could go off on his own and have a normal life. I'd posit that he didn't even know he wanted it until he had it. But he quite literally stumbled, or wrecked, his way into Amelia's life when he hit that dog.

Before he hit the dog, we know he "just drove" - probably trying to work up a plan, some course of action, something, anything. I think the dog-hitting happened sooner after Dean's disappearance than we think, though I could be wrong - I'm thinking within hours or days. Why? The overwhelming panic and despair when he brought Riot into that vet clinic.

And it was when he hit that dog, that he actually stopped to take breather. Did he intend, even in that moment, to start living a normal life? I highly doubt it. But he had to take the dog - and it needed to recover - can't do that on the road. In those days/weeks at the motel Sam probably did a lot of thinking - maybe too much. My view of it is he needed something to focus on, to do, because he certainly had no leads on Dean's whereabouts - so he started being the fix-it man. Note: When Sam says " I had no one, I had no leads" I take that at face value. If Sam says as much, it must have been true. It's canon until it's not canon (until canon refutes it). So, for the first time in the history of their deaths and disappearances, he had no idea what to do, where to turn, or where his brother had gone, if he was dead or alive.

And I also think of this: searching for his brother meant Sam hunting. Inevitably. And when Sam says, "as far as I'm concerned, hunting is what got every single member of my family killed" - I think that sums up his mindset pretty well. Couple that with where we left off in S7 - Bobby had died, Sam had just been "healed" after months of what had to be an exhausting battle with his psyche that almost killed him, Bobby's ghost had been eradicated, but not after he told them, "when it's your time: go." Then Dean - his "stone number one," disappears with no rhyme or reason. If he was dead, why bring him back? If he was in Purgatory, there was no way to open the door without causing great risk - we learned that from Cas and the Leviathans. But I digress.

It was at the motel that Sam ran into Amelia. Again. That relationship grew naturally from there - two people who'd experienced great loss and needed someone to cling to. It was a relationship of necessity and convenience perhaps, but they did care for each other. And Sam still obviously cares for her.

All that to say - Sam didn't just willfully abandon his brother for a normal life. He wasn't actively looking for it - like many good things in life, he just found it - or rather, it found him. And he chose to embrace it, because there was nothing else he could do after his world "imploded." And it saved him. I'm sure Sam meant that quite literally when he told Amelia that she "saved" him. Saved him from whatever desperate, self-destructiv e path he would have eventually taken out of grief and despair, or to find/get Dean back, assuming he could have found anything that wouldn't have had horrific, unintended consequences (which we know from history that's impossible).

If you watch those flashbacks - they have a bittersweet quality to them. It's not an overly happy time. You can tell whatever chemistry and love Sam and Amelia have is tempered by their grief, even resignation.

My only wish is that Dean could see it; could understand (and maybe he will by the season's end). Because IMO, Sam has nothing to be blamed for or ashamed about but being human, and that is all either of them are, anyway.

So yeah - that's my take on it.
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-12-11 15:57
"When Sam says " I had no one, I had no leads" I take that at face value. If Sam says as much, it must have been true. It's canon until it's not canon (until canon refutes it)"

This is the weak part of the story so far, though, so that's what I'm not tempted to take at face value without more from the writers to set the scene. Sam could do the same thing he did in Time After Time and research. He could do the same thing he and Dean have done on other occasions and try to summon Crowley. He could contact other hunters to see if anyone has some kind of clue he doesn't know about.

If he'd done any of these things, he would have been able to answer "yes," when Dean asked if he embraced a normal life after looking for him. For me to understand why Sam would not NEED to know what happened to Dean, not be torn between hope and grief and unable to move on because of that, which seems a more realistic take to me on how he would handle Dean disappearing and having no body and no answers, I need the writers to show me his frame of mind. Why we've had so many flasbacks of Amelia that do not advance the story in the present and none of the aftermath of losing Dean, I can't imagine.

I don't think Sam should be blamed, no matter what, but it does make a difference to what we should hope for him to know why he didn't look. Does he need Dean to let go of him so he can do what he truly wants to and be grounded by someone other than his brother? Does he need to tell Dean he had a breakdown and couldn't function and his relationship with Amelia was not only a dream, but not really even functional and he does need Dean in his life? Did he have a breakdown, but Amelia healed him and he now doesn't need hunting or Dean, so Dean needs to let him go? I'd like the foundational piece, so I can follow his emotional journey. I don't want to fanwank it.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-11 16:03
But at that moment in the story Team Free Will had the most up-to-date information of anyone in the world.

No one else would have had any more information about
Purgatory than them - they would have asked everybody already.

Bobby had the human skin book and even that was missing some information.

And if all hunters eat the way Dean does all the hunters would have been out of their minds on Sucracor food so they wouldn't have been any use anyway.

Having said that I don't think they are going to leave the 'I didn't look for you or Kevin' storyline lie - there is more to it.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-11 16:46
Quote:
And if all hunters eat the way Dean does all the hunters would have been out of their minds on Sucracor food so they wouldn't have been any use anyway.
HA! Omg - I never even thought of that - good point!
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-11 16:34
Quote:
Sam could do the same thing he did in Time After Time and research. He could do the same thing he and Dean have done on other occasions and try to summon Crowley. He could contact other hunters to see if anyone has some kind of clue he doesn't know about.
I guess this is where I differ - to do what Sam did in Time After Time, you have to have a point of origin for your research. In that episode, they were on a specific hunt, after a specific creature. And Dean disappeared the same way prior victims had disappeared. There were numerous connections to make.

To summon Crowley and make him do anything he'd have to have had leverage. He had none. Crowley had everything set up exactly like he wanted it - that was out of the question.

He could have contacted other hunters - but Sam historically has not made friends with many other hunters, much less trust them. Who could he have contacted that would possibly know MORE about the situation than he and Dean and Bobby did? No one.

And anything that they could have come up with would have been an "ass-pull". You know, kind of like what they did in "Born Again Identity" that we all (I'm generalizing) hated - coming up with some magical, too-easy fix to heal Sam / get Dean out of Purgatory. Oh - all of a sudden there's a hunter we've never heard of before who knows something about Dean's disappearance! Or - all of a sudden there's a spell, or some research that gives Sam a magic clue! No - this was actually the more realistic road, IMO. For once there were no leads. There were no answers.

Quote:
Why we've had so many flasbacks of Amelia that do not advance the story in the present and none of the aftermath of losing Dean, I can't imagine.
I don't see the purpose of the flashbacks as being to advance the present plot. I see them as insights into Sam's psyche, to help us understand his present actions. Granted, I can totally see why some would want "more" or "different" flashbacks, or why some would see them as inefficient. I can't argue with that because it's personal preference.

The whole Sam-Amelia-dog storyline IS the aftermath of losing Dean. Are we wanting flashbacks of Sam sobbing over a beer, or drunkenly screaming into the night? We already saw bits of that kind of reaction in S4, but that was because Sam was SURE Dean was suffering in Hell, and blamed himself for it. The Sam-on-a-self-destructive-binge-because-he-lost-his-brother is an old and tired storyline that has been repeated on this show often. This reaction? This is new and fresh. It's a different kind of grief because Sam is different kind of man than he was in S3-4.

And even in S6, we didn't see Dean sobbing or failing to live when his brother was in Hell. He looked of course - because he knew exactly where his brother was. And he drank because he couldn't find a way to get Sam out and was tormented by it. But he lived his life and had moments of happiness. Because that's what mature people do when someone they love dies, or leaves their life - they move on. Hard as it is, they keep living; they muddle through. Kudos to Sam, I say, for learning that lesson, hard as it was.

We are getting to see a side of Sam we haven't seen since the very beginning of S1 Pilot. That's interesting and original enough to keep me engaged and anticipating. We finally have a storyline where Sam's emotions are getting delved into a bit, as opposed to him being the central game-piece in the plot. We also get a bit of a role reversal with Sam and Dean in the present, which again, is new and interesting.

Quote:
Does he need Dean to let go of him so he can do what he truly wants to and be grounded by someone other than his brother? Does he need to tell Dean he had a breakdown and couldn't function and his relationship with Amelia was not only a dream, but not really even functional and he does need Dean in his life? Did he have a breakdown, but Amelia healed him and he now doesn't need hunting or Dean, so Dean needs to let him go? I'd like the foundational piece, so I can follow his emotional journey. I don't want to fanwank it.
I think all those questions are what are being asked and answered this season. We ARE ON the emotional journey, but the only way to get answers is to continue on to our destination.

I will say this - I think Sam's been telling Dean in not so subtle terms that he doesn't need him for a long time. And Dean knows it, but doesn't want to acknowledge it. I think he did have a breakdown, as evidenced by his reaction to hitting the dog and saying he ran because "the walls came down around him" and his world "imploded" - those aren't just empty words. And yes, Amelia healed him - she "saved" him. He said he doesn't want to hunt when this is all over, that's he just wants to close the gates of Hell and be done. It's no mystery. The foundation is there.

As for the whole - does Sam/Dean need Sam/Dean - they're brothers. Just because they've discovered they can function without each other doesn't mean that they don't love each other or can't hunt with each other or aren't still bonded by blood and brotherhood. I think they'll see this eventually, once they work through all this tension and pent-up resentment. :)

PS - I'm not sure what fanwank is. I'm assuming that's when fans make up stuff about the characters? :) I feel that everything I've stated or inferred has been supported by canon, most often by the characters' own words. I'm a big believer in sticking to canon. And believe me, I detest poor storytelling, so if I felt I had to fanwank stuff to enjoy and make sense of the show I wouldn't be watching. The only time I ever truly had to guess and fanwank to the point of frustration was S7, because the writing and direction felt purposeless, nihilistic, and incoherent. Not this season, though.
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-12-11 18:26
Hi Bamboo, I see the possibilities differently, because Sam didn't actually no anything about who Dean disappeared with or where, just that whoever it was seemed to be able to move through time and killed people. He could have thrown his hands up in the air then too and decided Dean must be dead, but he didn't. He researched. I don't need Sam to have found something this time, but I do expect him to have looked.

If Sam traps Crowley, the trapping is the leverage--and he has the demon knife. Could he have trapped him? I don't know--but again, it isn't necessary for Sam to have successfully done it. He just needed to have tried.

He could have contacted other hunters for the same reason Dean did when he needed to find a healer for Sam--you don't know what people know until you ask them. No one has Sam and Dean's experience, but until you ask, you don't know if someone has a piece of the puzzle they don't even know is a piece.

I don't need an "ass-pull"--and I know what you mean by that. (-: I just need either for Sam to have needed to look, so his answer to Dean about whether he did before he gave up would have been yes, or more on his state of mind when he didn't need to look. And that's so I understand Sam and he feels like the same guy I've known for the last seven years.

"I don't see the purpose of the flashbacks as being to advance the present plot. I see them as insights into Sam's psyche, to help us understand his present actions."

To me, if flashbacks don't do something to advance the present, they are a clumsy device that slow down the main action and that is what the Sam flashbacks have done. The Purgatory flashbacks were done really well because everyone answered a question viewers had about present action and that in turn pushed story.

We found out why Dean trusted Benny, we found out the moment he became a friend, we found out Dean did not revert to Lord of the Flies in Purgatory and instead showed Cas he has forgiven him, we found out he hadn't forgiven himself for failing Cas. That in turn led to Dean helping Benny in the present and defending him against Sam. It led to Cas and Dean communicating in a way they never have before and both men understanding themselves better and moving forward in their personal arcs.

All that forward action mitigates the way flashbacks have a backward drag and helps them connect to the story in multiple ways as the story moves forward.

Sam's flashbacks have not answered questions I have as a viewer and I think it's reasonable to want to know Sam's state of mind that led to him not looking for Dean. The flashbacks have not led Sam to examine his relationship in the present, even when the ostensible reason for having them is phrases like: "living a lie" and "avoiding reality through a dream."

I would have thought Sam would have done some re-evaluating of his relationship after "Hunteri Heroici," but no, instead we got Don coming back from the dead. I would have thought Don coming back from the dead would have triggered Sam to examine his own assumption Dean was dead. But no, instead we get a love triangle. Why would I be invested in a love triangle for a relationship which the triggers for Sam's flashbacks and his speech to Fred suggest is living a lie? I want forward movement, not going over old ground I already know is not going to last and shouldn't last.

"The Sam-on-a-self-d estructive-bing e-because-he-lo st-his-brother is an old and tired storyline that has been repeated on this show often."

I would say seeing Sam needing to know what happened to his brother would be seeing character continuity with the guy who shares an obsessive trait with his dad and has always needed to know. Inborn traits don't disappear.

" But he lived his life and had moments of happiness. Because that's what mature people do when someone they love dies, or leaves their life - they move on."

I would say that people who lose loved ones in mysterious circumstances where they have no body and no answers find it very very difficult to move on. When you have room for hope and no facts to make you face the reality of death, you can hold on to hope for a long time. I think it is an important story point to show the moment Sam's hope died because for him, that's the moment Dean died, not when he disappeared. And I haven't seen anything yet that feels that that to me.


"I will say this - I think Sam's been telling Dean in not so subtle terms that he doesn't need him for a long time. And Dean knows it, but doesn't want to acknowledge it. I think he did have a breakdown, as evidenced by his reaction to hitting the dog and saying he ran because "the walls came down around him" and his world "imploded" - those aren't just empty words. And yes, Amelia healed him - she "saved" him. He said he doesn't want to hunt when this is all over, that's he just wants to close the gates of Hell and be done. It's no mystery. The foundation is there. "

To me, what Sam found out in season four and five is that Dean's belief in him and love helped anchor him to his humanity. And in season six, Dean's love made him make the decision to force Sam's soul back in his body because he knew his brother would rather be dead than soulless. I don't we saw Sam show Dean was wrong in that. I think when you have the life Sam has led and the power he was given, having someone know everything you have done and are capable of, good and bad, is a necessary anchor.

I think Sam needs Dean and Dean needs Sam to keep each other human and that is their ongoing arc. If that's no longer true for Sam and he really doesn't need anything from Dean and he truly wants out of hunting and Amelia really is the person who grounds him, then I don't really see what purpose Sam has in the story any more. What drives his personal arc? What drives the brothers' shared arc? There have to be goals and needs. Right now it is a lot easier to see Dean and Castiel's arc and Dean and Benny's arc, and I don't see that as good for the series, because I think Sam and Dean's arc has to be central.

I also think that if the internal story logic continues to build Sam's needs as being not to hunt and have Dean let go of him, there could be a point where that needs to happen, co-star of the series or not, or the story falls apart or gets unconvincing. So I'm really looking for Sam to start processing what he really had with Amelia and why he is romanticizing it so much, just as Dean had to face why he perceived Cas letting go as his own failure. And soon--you can only suspend this stuff so long.

"I'm not sure what fanwank is. I'm assuming that's when fans make up stuff about the characters? :) "

Fanwank is when fans start with a canon incident and add their own facts to fill in gaps so the story makes sense. There's been tons of fanwank about Sam's motivation: comas, Sam being controlled by angels, Sam secretly saving Dean but not being able to say . . . I think when there is this much fanwank, it shows the story as shown is not satisfying. People need to add to it to have it make sense to them.

I could fanwank reasons Sam didn't look for Dean, but I want the show to give that to me, because it's an important story point. I didn't have to fanwank why Sam went with Ruby or Dean went to Zachariah and the story was the stronger for letting us walk it along with the boys.

And I should say I know these are my thoughts and feelings and you are looking at these things differently. I'm just enjoying discussing this with you!
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-11 19:06
Quote:
And I should say I know these are my thoughts and feelings and you are looking at these things differently. I'm just enjoying discussing this with you!
Of course. :)
I am very much enjoying the discussion as well.

We will have to agree to disagree on the "things Sam could've done after Dean disappeared" bit - I'm not swayed. :)

I should say this though - this is the first season since...oh...forever (lol) that I've been really truly interested in and supportive of Sam's character. Not that I've ever disliked Sam. But I didn't feel a connection like I have with Dean's character. I always thought it was because Dean was the oldest, and I could identify with that. But this season is totally different. I feel like I'm in Sam's corner, looking at Dean's character and saying, "what's become of you?" :P And it's not the love story. I could care less about that. This Sam, I feel like I have grasp on. This Sam, I feel like I understand. And I find that extraordinarily interesting considering others like yourself feel the exact opposite - I genuinely wonder what the source of that is, and why different fans are having different reactions? (Of course, they always have different reactions....) Thoughts?

You raise many good points, especially:

Quote:
I would say seeing Sam needing to know what happened to his brother would be seeing character continuity with the guy who shares an obsessive trait with his dad and has always needed to know. Inborn traits don't disappear.
and:

Quote:
I would say that people who lose loved ones in mysterious circumstances where they have no body and no answers find it very very difficult to move on. When you have room for hope and no facts to make you face the reality of death, you can hold on to hope for a long time. I think it is an important story point to show the moment Sam's hope died because for him, that's the moment Dean died, not when he disappeared. And I haven't seen anything yet that feels that that to me.
Regarding some other points:

Quote:
I think Sam needs Dean and Dean needs Sam to keep each other human and that is their ongoing arc. If that's no longer true for Sam and he really doesn't need anything from Dean and he truly wants out of hunting and Amelia really is the person who grounds him, then I don't really see what purpose Sam has in the story any more. What drives his personal arc? What drives the brothers' shared arc? There have to be goals and needs.
Do they really need each other too keep each other human anymore? I'm just speculating here, but that was the case back in S4-S5 - have things changed? What if Sam and Dean could both learn to ground themselves - not in others - but in themselves? To be self-sufficient? And what if they then find that the reasons why they hunt and stay together - rather than being based on unhealthy co-dependence and need - are based more on mutual respect and partnership? Just some points to ponder. Because Carver has mentioned he's aiming to bring them to a point of maturity, and there's lots of speculation about just what that could mean.

Quote:
I also think that if the internal story logic continues to build Sam's needs as being not to hunt and have Dean let go of him, there could be a point where that needs to happen, co-star of the series or not, or the story falls apart or gets unconvincing. So I'm really looking for Sam to start processing what he really had with Amelia and why he is romanticizing it so much, just as Dean had to face why he perceived Cas letting go as his own failure. And soon--you can only suspend this stuff so long.
Sam's in the hunt indefinitely at least until they close the gates of hell, and because he feels a duty toward Kevin (and to his brother?). For me, that's enough. I don't think it's possible for any hunter to truly enjoy the Job unless they are seriously screwed up. I think Sam views it for what it is, a bloody, messy occupation that's going to end in a bloody, messy death, for him and Dean both. He may truly want out, just as he did in S1, but he recognizes the need to stay in and get the job done. I foresee no falling apart of the storyline if this "Closing the Gates of Hell" arc takes 1-2 more seasons to pan out, because Sam is in it until then. Know what I mean? I guess I'm not understanding why that is an issue.

Quote:
Sam's flashbacks have not answered questions I have as a viewer and I think it's reasonable to want to know Sam's state of mind that led to him not looking for Dean. The flashbacks have not led Sam to examine his relationship in the present, even when the ostensible reason for having them is phrases like: "living a lie" and "avoiding reality through a dream."
I agree that Sam's flashbacks have not answered all the questions we have, and that it's reasonable to want to know the nitty-gritty details - especially when so much is at stake. But I also truly believe that there some reason for that, whether it's tied to the major story arc or not. It's just a hunch, I have no basis for that belief. But you're right, the Purgatory flashbacks have answered just about all of our questions regarding that storyline - and that leaves me with the conclusion that for Sam's to have questions unanswered means there's a reason for it. I guess I have more faith in the current showrunner and writers, but that faith is based on what I see as a creatively rejuvenated show, tight, purposeful writing, and a very entertaining season. I'm okay with having lingering questions - it's what makes watching fun.
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-12-11 20:06
Hi Bamboo, it is interesting that this is the season you connect to Sam and it's the season I feel I've lost that connection without more info.

It may reside in this comment and question from you:

"Do they really need each other too keep each other human anymore? I'm just speculating here, but that was the case back in S4-S5 - have things changed? What if Sam and Dean could both learn to ground themselves - not in others - but in themselves? To be self-sufficient ? And what if they then find that the reasons why they hunt and stay together - rather than being based on unhealthy co-dependence and need - are based more on mutual respect and partnership?"

I would say, yes, the keeping each other human is the distillation of what they do for each other. If Sam truly wants out and is just going along out of guilt at having left Kevin in the wind, then that changes Sam and Dean's relationship in a fundamental way that in my opinion will not be engaging to watch. Carver may be able to string that along for another half season, but not three more years. Especially if there are other characters who can ride shotgun and who have interesting relationships with Dean based on what they need from each other.

The boys have to have needs and goals that drive their personal arcs and they have to seem like a team that fits together because of the way they balance each other's flaws and strengths and are the stronger for it. They have to need each other or their relationship is no longer the engine that drives the show. Self-sufficient maturity is not dramatic. The mysteries are fine, the quests are fine, but if Sam and Dean are not interesting, the show is not fine.

And I will be really upset if the first five years of the show disappear in relation to Sam and he no longer has to deal with the effect of demon blood, even though Ruby told him drinking the nurse's blood would change him permanently and he then drank buckets more in Swan Song. Ruby also told him he always had the power to kill Lilith in him and she was just Dumbo's feather to help him believe he had the power. I've never seen Sam as just a normal guy who got dragged into something against his will. He never had a normal life, even at Stanford and I'd like a little continuity with the story before season 8.

"I foresee no falling apart of the storyline if this "Closing the Gates of Hell" arc takes 1-2 more seasons to pan out, because Sam is in it until then. Know what I mean? I guess I'm not understanding why that is an issue."

Because for me the story line will fall apart quite soon if I do not think Sam is riding in the Impala because he wants to be and if he has nothing he needs from Dean. The plot is not the emotional story; it's just the vehicle that tells the emotional story. I have to be invested in the brothers' relationship. If Sam's story is really about self-sufficency and hating hunting, I'd rather Castiel or Benny ride shotgun, because that's more interesting and enjoyable to watch. However, I don't really think either of those relationships can really drive the show, so the show will suffer.

I think we differ on just trusting the writing that we'll get the answers I at least need from Sam's arc because I don't yet get the impression I'm supposed to be questioning Sam's decision not to look or want more there. The writing is concentrating on the Amelia relationship and what Sam is getting there. In season six, I never doubted I was supposed to be questioning why Sam seemed so different--I knew it was a story point. This season, I don't know that my dissatisfaction with Sam's arc is supposed to be there and will be addressed in a story point.

If it is, though, I'll be delighted, because I've loved much of this season. Loved Purgatory, love Benny, love rejuvenated Dean, love Castiel with a real purpose in the story, love Crowley as a big bad, love the season having a quest. So much to love!
st50
# st50 2012-12-11 20:34
I really have nothing to add, but just letting you know I am following this discussion between you, Gerry and Bamboo24, with GREAT interest.
Articulate honest debate over the issue that I was trying to figure out how to address yesterday.
Because I agree with Gerry, that I am having trouble with Sam this season as never before, and IF Sam and Dean no longer NEED each other, the story has changed dramatically, and I'm unsure of what that will mean.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-11 21:10
Hi st50 - I'm wondering how you define "need".

What kind of need do you think has been demonstrated in the past?

What have they traditionally needed each other for?

And what would the consequences be, as you see it, if they no longer need each other in that way?

I would argue that a lot of the resentment and tension we're seeing now is a result of unhealthy patterns that have grown out of a kind of need that was driven and influenced primarily by fear, distrust, and guilt.

Sam and Dean can need each other in a healthy way - as in needing to have each other's back as brothers and partners. That's good.

But "I need you because you keep me from going off the deep end and making bad decisions," "I need you because you keep me human," "I need you because I need to feel needed," "I need you to fulfill something deficient within myself" - those are unhealthy forms of need.

And one can easily see, I think, how those forms of need result in unrealistic expectations that breed resentment when unfulfilled. I think that's where the brothers are right now.

And at root, needing is very different from wanting.

Need is very different from love.

So when I say that it would be good for the brothers to be self-sufficient , and that I see great potential if the brothers can get past this, "I need you" stuff - that's what I mean.

I'd rather have them say - "You're my brother. I love and respect you for who you are, even though you are different from me. And I though I don't need you and you don't need me, we make a great team, and I want and I choose to be a part of that team and stand beside you."

I'd want to seem them as a united front, without any of that crap that has so often been used against them in the past. They'd be stronger this way, and I think, more interesting to watch.

At root - I'm all about character development. I see the potential for that in the stuff that's been stirred up so far this season, and that's a big reason why I'm so on board.

Thoughts?
st50
# st50 2012-12-11 21:29
Hi Bamboo24,
I'd like to take part in this discussion, but I just don't have the words to describe my thoughts and feelings on this. Which is why I've been leaving it to you two.

I simply know that, if the boys were confronted with a similar scenario now, given where Dean and especially Sam seem to be at this point of season 8, then Lucifer would not be in the cage.... These two guys - without the profound need for each other, without the extremes they would go to to save each other -could not do now what they did then.

That might be maturity, it might be healthier, but they're not the heroes they used to be. imo.

Does that make sense?
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-11 21:44
Quote:
I simply know that, if the boys were confronted with a similar scenario now, given where Dean and especially Sam seem to be at this point of season 8, then Lucifer would not be in the cage.... These two guys - without the profound need for each other, without the extremes they would go to to save each other -could not do now what they did then.

That might be maturity, it might be healthier, but they're not the heroes they used to be. imo.

Does that make sense?
My understanding of your view is that - if the brothers become more mature and less co-dependent, something will be fundamentally altered in their relationship, and therefore the show. However that is honestly the extent of my understanding. :)

It's interesting that you bring the up Sam jumping in the cage as your example. If you recall, there was a big discussion beforehand about whether Dean would "let" him do it. And they had that discussion about growing up and letting Sam make his own decisions. And Dean ultimately let his brother go - an act that went against every fiber of his being - an act that actually went against that co-dependence, that "need" Dean had for Sam to be near him and safe at all times. It was love and respect - not co-dependent need - that led Sam to make that jump, and Dean to step back and let him. I'd tentatively argue that was the end of an era.

However, when Sam came back from the cage, there was all the stuff with soullessness and the wall and Lucifer, and they became utterly reliant on one another - because that was what was needed at the time.

Now is a different time. There is no apocalypse looming over their heads. No leviathans threatening all of mankind. They're on the offensive this season - and hunting for very different motivations. Could it be that they no longer need that co-dependency, that it could actually be a detriment to the offensive fight they are pursuing this season?

Just some thoughts.
st50
# st50 2012-12-11 21:52
yea....no. I didn't express myself clearly, I guess.
Never mind... Carry on your debate.
I'm going to stick to the shallow pool, where I belong.
I don't do thinky thoughts well.
:-)
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-11 22:00
Disagree st50, you do thinky thoughts with the best of em!
st50
# st50 2012-12-12 00:12
Thanks, Leah. ;-)
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-12 00:15
Quote:
you do thinky thoughts with the best of em!
Missed this - I feel like my email is lagging in keeping up with comments - I agree with Leah - keep the "thinky thoughts" coming st50. :)
Amy
# Amy 2012-12-11 21:48
Quote:
Hi Bamboo24,
I'd like to take part in this discussion, but I just don't have the words to describe my thoughts and feelings on this. Which is why I've been leaving it to you two.

I simply know that, if the boys were confronted with a similar scenario now, given where Dean and especially Sam seem to be at this point of season 8, then Lucifer would not be in the cage.... These two guys - without the profound need for each other, without the extremes they would go to to save each other -could not do now what they did then.

That might be maturity, it might be healthier, but they're not the heroes they used to be. imo.

Does that make sense?
I too am loving the conversation going on. I think i can answer this:

If Sam and Dean dont have the profound need for each other then Dean would never have sold his soul, the seass wouldn't have been broken, Sam wouldn't have released Lucifer and sam would never have needed to throw himself into Hell.

Honestly? Sam adn Dean HAD to be the extreme heroes they are simply because they had to clean up their own mess. Which was caused by their profound need for each other.
E
# E 2012-12-12 21:06
I think you have a point here St50, and I think that Citizen Fang was showing us this. These two guys need each other, and when they don't understand just how much, they don't work well together. My thought is that they boys are working themselves back to one another and their hunting won't be fluid again until they work out some of these issues and see each other in an improved light. Maybe the need for each other has changed it dynamic, but they DO still need one another IMO, they just at the moment don't understand how. Garth and even Benny seem to see how much the brother's need each other even if Sam and Dean can't at the moment.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-11 20:47
Quote:
I would say, yes, the keeping each other human is the distillation of what they do for each other. If Sam truly wants out and is just going along out of guilt at having left Kevin in the wind, then that changes Sam and Dean's relationship in a fundamental way that in my opinion will not be engaging to watch. Carver may be able to string that along for another half season, but not three more years. Especially if there are other characters who can ride shotgun and who have interesting relationships with Dean based on what they need from each other.

The boys have to have needs and goals that drive their personal arcs and they have to seem like a team that fits together because of the way they balance each other's flaws and strengths and are the stronger for it. They have to need each other or their relationship is no longer the engine that drives the show. Self-sufficient maturity is not dramatic. The mysteries are fine, the quests are fine, but if Sam and Dean are not interesting, the show is not fine.
That's very interesting, Gerry. See, I'm thinking that the story will be much more engaging if the brothers were indeed self-sufficient. I think it opens things up for a broader, more creative world - and yes, that involves more secondary characters. Not to have them take over the show by any stretch, but we saw in S7 what it is like to have just Sam and Dean in a car with very few meaningful interactions with other characters, and many of those being killed off too soon. For me, it because depressing and a chore to watch. But when you bring people like Benny and Cas and Charlie and Sheriff Mills and Garth and even Amelia into the mix it makes things interesting - stirs the pot. Because the brothers related in different degrees to each person and those relationships help inform, expand, and complicate the brothers' relationship.

If they can get past these resentments and this co-dependent tension and get to a point of mutual trust, respect, and self-sufficiency - IMO they'll make an even stronger team. There would still be drama about plenty of things - but I think the brothers would certainly treat each other better and be overall happier. Note: when I say "self-sufficient" I don't mean they each go off and do their own thing. I'd much rather have them acknowledging that they make a good team and hunt together for that reason than feeling like they NEED to out hunt together out of fear or guilt or co-dependency.

Perhaps they can find a middle ground in this that will satisfy both of us. :)

Quote:
And I will be really upset if the first five years of the show disappear in relation to Sam and he no longer has to deal with the effect of demon blood, even though Ruby told him drinking the nurse's blood would change him permanently and he then drank buckets more in Swan Song. Ruby also told him he always had the power to kill Lilith in him and she was just Dumbo's feather to help him believe he had the power. I've never seen Sam as just a normal guy who got dragged into something against his will. He never had a normal life, even at Stanford and I'd like a little continuity with the story before season 8.
This is another interesting point - I never interpreted Ruby's "dumbo" comment to mean more than that Sam had the demon blood in him since he was 6 mo.s old - the power was always there, Ruby just influenced his partake of it. I also thought it was a volley of blame back on him - he'd said something like, "you poisoned me!" And she, being the demon she was, replied basically by saying she was just a facilitator i.e. "I put the options in front of you and you chose this way each time."

He did drink buckets more in Swan Song, and then his body/soul was ravaged in the cage. But I would think (beware of fanwank) that just like how in "Sympathy for the Devil" (I believe it was) whoever put Sam and Dean on that plane "cleaned Sam up" - Cas also, when he pulled Sam from the cage, cleaned him up. No more thirst for demon blood. Sure it's still there - but I personally feel that the whole storyline has been played out to its ultimate end. And even if it hasn't - it was dropped long before S8. Can't blame Carver for that one. It'd be odd if he picked up now (though I'm sure they could find a way).

Quote:
The plot is not the emotional story; it's just the vehicle that tells the emotional story. I have to be invested in the brothers' relationship. If Sam's story is really about self-sufficency and hating hunting, I'd rather Castiel or Benny ride shotgun, because that's more interesting and enjoyable to watch.
But what would you say if I said that Sam has always hated hunting. From the beginning. And that it has never changed save for when he was not himself (i.e. demon blood, soullessness). I'd argue that, given the choice, and assuming no one would die, neither brother would want or choose to hunt. They do it because it's a job that needs done because it saves lives, and if not them than who? That's not enjoyment though. That's resignation.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point too. :)
I don't want to beat a dead horse.

Quote:
I've loved much of this season. Loved Purgatory, love Benny, love rejuvenated Dean, love Castiel with a real purpose in the story, love Crowley as a big bad, love the season having a quest. So much to love!
I'm glad you've found things to love despite your criticisms. :) I too love everything you mentioned!
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-12-11 21:11
"If they can get past these resentments and this co-dependent tension and get to a point of mutual trust, respect, and self-sufficienc y - IMO they'll make an even stronger team. "

I guess I think letting the co-dependent tension out of the relationship is letting the tension out of the relationship. (-: A certain amount of tension is necessary--and I don't mean the kind of fighting we have now. I mean each needing something the other can offer and without which they are adrift in some key way. They right each other when they get off centre.

"I'd much rather have them acknowledging that they make a good team and hunt together for that reason than feeling like they NEED to out hunt together out of fear or guilt or co-dependency. "

But if Sam really wants to be out of the life and is hunting out of feeling responsible for leaving Kevin with Crowley, isn't that hunting out of guilt? That's what I don't want, that kind of motivation for the boys being together.

"Sure it's still there - but I personally feel that the whole storyline has been played out to its ultimate end. And even if it hasn't - it was dropped long before S8. Can't blame Carver for that one. It'd be odd if he picked up now (though I'm sure they could find a way). "

I was able to live with the way the story line hasn't been explored because Sam has not been well since he came back from the Pit. He was soulless and then he was mentally ill and then he was dying. He really has not had time to put himself back together and figure out who and what he is now that he has taken his fate back into his own hands.

Now he's doing that work--and I expect his past to still be important. He isn't currently drinking demon blood, but he'll always be Lucifer's specially bred vessel who was moulded to be powerful and he's been changed in some permanent way by the blood. I don't expect to see season four redux, but I expect Sam to be shaped by what's happened to him and I expect him to know he was never a normal guy.

I'm glad to know we both share a lot of enjoyment for the show as well! I'm certainly tuning in when the show comes back. I just have my worries. (-:
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-11 21:20
Quote:
"I'd much rather have them acknowledging that they make a good team and hunt together for that reason than feeling like they NEED to out hunt together out of fear or guilt or co-dependency. "

But if Sam really wants to be out of the life and is hunting out of feeling responsible for leaving Kevin with Crowley, isn't that hunting out of guilt? That's what I don't want, that kind of motivation for the boys being together.
Yes, I think right now, based on what we know, he's hunting out of guilt. I'd like them to get beyond that. However, I kind of caught myself in a mis-communicati on there. What I was referring to - hunting out of guilt - was hunting WITH Dean solely out of guilt that if something happened to Dean, and Sam wasn't with him, it'd be Sam's fault. Sam can hate hunting - and I'd argue he has - but that is wholly separate than how he feels about hunting with Dean - wholly separate about how he feels ABOUT his brother.

It makes perfect sense in my head but when I type it out it looks convoluted.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-11 22:50
Quote:
I think we differ on just trusting the writing that we'll get the answers I at least need from Sam's arc because I don't yet get the impression I'm supposed to be questioning Sam's decision not to look or want more there. The writing is concentrating on the Amelia relationship and what Sam is getting there. In season six, I never doubted I was supposed to be questioning why Sam seemed so different--I knew it was a story point. This season, I don't know that my dissatisfaction with Sam's arc is supposed to be there and will be addressed in a story point.
I've raised this question as well, Gerry. Like you, it is not at all clear to me that I'm supposed to think there is something off w/Sam or more going on w/his story. In fact, IMO, the story is being presented in a very straightforward way - for some unknown, unstated reason Sam assumed Dean died so he drove around, hit a dog, and met a quite unlikeable girl. That's it.

Sadly, I think Carver believes Sam's actions have been adequately explained. I can only hope he now realizes that he may need to explain this a bit more if this is the fully and complete story.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-11 21:57
Quote:
Sam's in the hunt indefinitely at least until they close the gates of hell, and because he feels a duty toward Kevin (and to his brother?). For me, that's enough. I don't think it's possible for any hunter to truly enjoy the Job unless they are seriously screwed up. I think Sam views it for what it is, a bloody, messy occupation that's going to end in a bloody, messy death, for him and Dean both. He may truly want out, just as he did in S1, but he recognizes the need to stay in and get the job done. I foresee no falling apart of the storyline if this "Closing the Gates of Hell" arc takes 1-2 more seasons to pan out, because Sam is in it until then. Know what I mean? I guess I'm not understanding why that is an issue.
The issue for me is that if staying in the game to get the job done is Sam motive it makes no sense for him to ride around in the Impala unless the job involves closing the Gates of Hell. Dean is deeply unhappy with Sam. If Sam is deeply unhappy with the life the route to take is for Sam to go back to the motel, tell them his brother has contacted him that due to some deeply personal circumstance Sam may need to take off at a moment's notice to help Dean, and can they accommodate him. Most of the cases this year have not involved closing the Gates of Hell. In 8 episodes only three have involved the tablets and the Gates of Hell. Dean is riding with a partner he doesn't trust and he takes every opportunity to tell Sam that. Sam is distant and unhappy. He is putting his life on hold for one reason only, Kevin and closing the Gates of Hell. So he should start living that life he wants.

Having Sam give up what he wants to be with a resentful Dean doesn't help either of them. Sure they can have Sam leave at the end of the arc, but that means 2-3 years of Sam putting his life on hold until he really is trapped. That doesn't work for me emotionally for either brother.
Amy
# Amy 2012-12-11 22:10
Thinking about this, Percy. The most logical thing for Sam to do is NOT ride around with Dean taking every side job that comes their way...but for Sam to become Kevin and Mrs. Trans protector. That way he can guard the Trans, help Kevin with research and quiet possibly lead a semi normal life.

This solves Sam and Dean and the trust/resentmen t issues. they arn't together and talk only when nessessary.

But for a Sam fan I'd find it unfulfilling emotionally. I WANT Sam on the grand adventure. But more then that I WANT SAM to WANT to be there adventuring as well.

Didn't Carver sell S8 as the Indiana Jones era?
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-12 12:20
I agree with this so much. I want Sam on the adventure, but the relationship is becoming so toxic.

Quote:
Didn't Carver sell S8 as the Indiana Jones era?
And last season was supposed to be Butch and Sundance and that didn't work out so well. Maybe the writers need to stop going to movies for inspiration and look to how the characters have already evolved and go from there.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-11 22:21
Quote:
The issue for me is that if staying in the game to get the job done is Sam motive it makes no sense for him to ride around in the Impala unless the job involves closing the Gates of Hell.
Why?? The Impala is as familiar as home to Sam. Hunting to get the job done doesn't mean Sam has to ride in a different car. In fact, it makes sense for purely practical reasons to use one car. I'm not seeing the logic in that.

Quote:
Most of the cases this year have not involved closing the Gates of Hell. In 8 episodes only three have involved the tablets and the Gates of Hell.
I think how it works is the Gates of Hell is the ultimate objective, but while they're always following trails for The Big Hunt, they're take on smaller hunts along the way.

In any case, it makes no sense for Sam to wait at some motel and then have him drive from whatever part of the country that is in to wherever Dean is.

Quote:
Dean is riding with a partner he doesn't trust and he takes every opportunity to tell Sam that. Sam is distant and unhappy. He is putting his life on hold for one reason only, Kevin and closing the Gates of Hell.
I know the relationship between them is strained to its breaking point - but I anticipate that it will get better.
The answer is not for Sam to give up on Dean or vice versa, the answer is for them to work it out like adults.

Quote:
Having Sam give up what he wants to be with a resentful Dean doesn't help either of them.
Having a responsibility and fulfilling it regardless of how it makes you feel i.e. giving up what you want because it is the right thing to do - is what grown ups do.

Sam feels a responsibility to Kevin and has a personal interest in closing the Gates of Hell, and he is fulfilling those despite his current "wants."

Gosh, if Sam or Dean truly ever went for what they wanted they would not be hunting at all. Dean would have stayed in the Djinn reality. Sam would have never left Stanford. But there are other motivations at play, and always have been.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-12 12:17
While Sam was raised in the Impala it has always been Dean's. Sam's addition of an Ipod was removed. Dean has decreed that Sam may not have a dog in the car. Dean has the first and last say about the Impala.

My problem is that the set up this year has the brothers on such different pages that the relationship isn't strained, it's becoming toxic to both. Dean's mistrust, Sam's apparent indifference are destructive to both boys psyches. I have lived with conflict, some seasons I enjoyed 1-3, some I disliked 4-5, but this season has me actually wanting them away from each other for the first time ever.

Sam can fill his responsibility without constantly reminding Dean by his presence that Sam didn't care enough to look for him. Sam can fill his responsibility without having to deal with a brother who reminds him constantly that he as always been a failure. The relationship as it stands is not only painful, it is down right dangerous. Neither one has the others back completely. Sam is willing to restrain Dean while he hunts for Benny, Dean is willing to inflict mental pain on Sam to get him out of the hunt. This is NOT a working relationship. Get Sam out of the car. Let Dean hunt with Benny, or Cas. Anything other than this painful constant destruction of the boys and any love they may have left for each other.

Frankly Amy had the best solution. Instead of bundling Kevin and Mrs. Tran off to Garth, have Sam protect them. He will be around for any breakthrough. He can protect them as well as Garth and he gets to settle down.

As for Dean staying in the Djinn reality, well Dean would be dead so maybe what he wanted, but a really bad idea. And Sam would have been yanked out of Stanford even if he has stayed. He would have been in the middle of law school and then suddenly in Cold Oak. Those were cases where the boys couldn't follow what they wanted, even if they had tried.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-12 12:32
Quote:
My problem is that the set up this year has the brothers on such different pages that the relationship isn't strained, it's becoming toxic to both. Dean's mistrust, Sam's apparent indifference are destructive to both boys psyches.
I agree. I just am very confident that it will get better - I'd bet money on it, and I don't have much money. :)

Quote:
Sam can fill his responsibility without constantly reminding Dean by his presence that Sam didn't care enough to look for him. Sam can fill his responsibility without having to deal with a brother who reminds him constantly that he as always been a failure. The relationship as it stands is not only painful, it is down right dangerous. Neither one has the others back completely. Sam is willing to restrain Dean while he hunts for Benny, Dean is willing to inflict mental pain on Sam to get him out of the hunt. This is NOT a working relationship.
Again, I totally agree. It's certainly distressing. I'm just wondering why there are such strong suggestions that the boys separate, instead of suggestions that they work it out, or the belief that there isn't a reason behind this tension and that it won't be addressed and resolved in future episodes. (We have a long way to go before the finale). But technically the boys are already separated as of the end of the last episode. They were in different states and had a big fight, so there will probably be some time passed between when they meet up again.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-12 13:10
Quote:
I'm just wondering why there are such strong suggestions that the boys separate, instead of suggestions that they work it out, or the belief that there isn't a reason behind this tension and that it won't be addressed and resolved in future episodes. (We have a long way to go before the finale).
For me, I think Carver has broken this beyond repair. Yes, there is a lot of the season to go yet. We have either 22 or 23 episodes, I don't remember which. Carver has spent over 1/3 of the season not only breaking the relationship, but putting most of the blame on Sam. I honestly believe that Sam can not be redeemed as a loving brother who deserves to be an equal partner. We saw Dean's mindset being shaped by Purgatory. We have seen nothing of how Sam felt about Dean being dead except for 2-3 very off hand, very unemotional remarks.

Dean has been portrayed as the betrayed brother, who was abandoned by Sam to a horrific time in Purgatory. We have not been granted any insight as to why Sam decided he was dead or what Sam's world "imploding" meant. Mostly imploding seems to mean acting as if nothing happened. At this point any explanation of Sam's behavior will be pronounced to be "making Sam a saint and Dean's expense" and merely an excuse that doesn't hold water. I've seen this attitude on this board from posters already.

Carver has gutted the brotherly bond and he has done a good enough job that I'm not certain I want it repaired. I just want to stop watching Sam and Dean tear each other to shreds.

It's funny, I can suspend disbelief about vampires and werewolves and demons and closing the Gates of Hell, but I find watching a toxic, dysfunctional relationship to bee way too painful. The part of me that loved Supernatural wants them to find a way back. The realistic part thinks that is not possible and if it is the only way is by making Sam completely and utterly submit to Dean and be portrayed for the rest of the series as someone who has no worth whatsoever.

And yes, I know I'm not reasonable at this time and I hope that I will feel differently later. But for now, too much lays in ruins.
RMF
# RMF 2012-12-12 01:19
Quote:
Do they really need each other too keep each other human anymore? I'm just speculating here, but that was the case back in S4-S5 - have things changed? What if Sam and Dean could both learn to ground themselves - not in others - but in themselves? To be self-sufficient? And what if they then find that the reasons why they hunt and stay together - rather than being based on unhealthy co-dependence and need - are based more on mutual respect and partnership? Just some points to ponder. Because Carver has mentioned he's aiming to bring them to a point of maturity, and there's lots of speculation about just what that could mean. 
I too would say yes, they still need each other to keep each other human. There is a degrading aspect to the constant violence and impermance of the hunter's life that no individual can overcome by himself. And with the sheer magnitude of what they're up against, no ordinary bond could survive either (and we're wondering whether even this one has). If it were reasonable, and healthy, and kept the proper perspective, I don't think they would have the strength to face down the odds that they do. Where is the roadmap for having gone to Hell and back? Where is the roadmap for having your soul torn out of your body and shoved back in?

By all means they should learn to avoid the extreme errors of selling their souls and drinking demon blood, but I think they're kind of there already. If by maturity, Carver means cleaning up some of the dumber stuff they fight about, then fine, but I'm not on board with lessening the intensity of their bond. Another thing that bothers me about the notion of maturing the brothers this season is that Dean has already forgiven Sam, and Sam has already embraced hunting. Carver has revived and reengineered both conflicts in order to "solve" them. Some cynical part of me says, sure, until the show decides to rake the whole thing up again.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-12 12:01
Quote:
Another thing that bothers me about the notion of maturing the brothers this season is that Dean has already forgiven Sam, and Sam has already embraced hunting. Carver has revived and reengineered both conflicts in order to "solve" them. Some cynical part of me says, sure, until the show decides to rake the whole thing up again.
This is one of the bigger flaws with the storyline. Dean said he had forgiven Sam. If he finds a way to "forgive" him again, why should we believe him. If close to 200 years of atonement in the Cage, coming back to face insanity in order to not leave Dean out there alone and trusting that Dean is stone one, even after Dean lied to him isn't enough to earn forgiveness what is?

Sam admitted that he was committed to hunting. In Zachariah's pretend world with Sam the techy and Dean the executive, SAM was the first one to decide he had to get back into hunting. When Sam was soulless, he had absolutely NO drive to save people, only to do what felt good. SS could have taken his education, forged a few documents and lived a good life with lots of sex, drinking, and money. Heck with everything SS knew about fraud, he could have lived high on the hog being a criminal, he had no morals to stop him. Yet he turned to hunting indicating that it is a deep a part of him as it is in Dean. If Sam is "convinced" he is a hunter again, why should we think it will stick this time?
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-12 15:15
Quote:
Another thing that bothers me about the notion of maturing the brothers this season is that Dean has already forgiven Sam, and Sam has already embraced hunting. Carver has revived and reengineered both conflicts in order to "solve" them. Some cynical part of me says, sure, until the show decides to rake the whole thing up again.
Great point! It's one I've raised as well. Much of this feels like a retread.

At some point, Sam decided he was a hunter. I believe he committed himself to the life. Granted, I don't have much to go on b/c we rarely get Sam's POV, but I guess I was shocked to learn we were going back to the "I don't want to hunt" angle. Sam wanted normal in Season 1. He recommitted himself to hunting in S2, and in S4, he told Dean he wouldn't wish for a wife, a house, and 2.5 kids. Even Soulless Sam hunted. He could have done anything, but he chose to hunt.

I'm actually very easy to please though. I just want a good story w/stated motivations and reasons for the character's actions. I don't want to make it up. I won't lie. I did wonder a few seasons ago if Sam had actually committed to hunting or if he had just resigned himself to the lifestyle. I don't know. There could be evidence for both positions. It would be so much better if the writers would just give Sam dialogue, stating his POV. Then, we wouldn't have to guess or assume things about him.

I honestly believed Dean had forgiven Sam for Sam's past sins so I was quite shocked to learn he has forgiven nothing. I'm actually okay w/that. I can see some resolution to that. I see no resolution to this stuff w/Sam.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-12-12 20:01
Quote:

By all means they should learn to avoid the extreme errors of selling their souls and drinking demon blood, but I think they're kind of there already. If by maturity, Carver means cleaning up some of the dumber stuff they fight about, then fine, but I'm not on board with lessening the intensity of their bond. .
I agree with this completely. It was what I was trying to say before but you said it so much better.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-11 22:40
Quote:
. . . Sam's flashbacks have not answered questions I have as a viewer and I think it's reasonable to want to know Sam's state of mind that led to him not looking for Dean. The flashbacks have not led Sam to examine his relationship in the present, even when the ostensible reason for having them is phrases like: "living a lie" and "avoiding reality through a dream."

. . . . I want forward movement, not going over old ground I already know is not going to last and shouldn't last.

. . . . . I would say seeing Sam needing to know what happened to his brother would be seeing character continuity with the guy who shares an obsessive trait with his dad and has always needed to know. Inborn traits don't disappear.
I couldn't agree more w/everything you've stated here.

Quote:
I would say that people who lose loved ones in mysterious circumstances where they have no body and no answers find it very very difficult to move on. When you have room for hope and no facts to make you face the reality of death, you can hold on to hope for a long time. I think it is an important story point to show the moment Sam's hope died because for him, that's the moment Dean died, not when he disappeared. And I haven't seen anything yet that feels that that to me.
This is so perfectly stated. Succint and to the point. You've touched on the heart of the problem w/Sam's story for me. It's why I cannot support anything Carver has done w/the character this year.

Everything in your post is spot on, Gerry! From the increasing unimportance of Sam to the show to the crazy amount of fanwanking this year.

I think Sam's story is not working for most people on some level. Others may be more patient or optimistic than me, but I haven't seen anyone who is completely satisifed w/everything Carver's written for Sam.

Excellent analysis and posts!
RMF
# RMF 2012-12-12 00:43
Quote:
Everything in your post is spot on, Gerry! From the increasing unimportance of Sam to the show to the crazy amount of fanwanking this year. 

I think Sam's story is not working for most people on some level. Others may be more patient or optimistic than me, but I haven't seen anyone who is completely satisifed w/everything Carver's written for Sam. 
 Agreed. Some people are simply becoming inured to Sam's unsatisfactory storyline. Others are fanwanking like crazy to fill in the gaps. The remainder of us are still pissed off about it. I can understand Dean's storyline emotionally, in terms of character continuity, and plotwise. I can even start to see where they're going with the Sam vs. Benny arc, what Sam brings to the partnership that Benny can't. But I still can't for the life of me place the Sam we're offered this year in the context of the Sam we've known for seven years. And yes, with all the emphasis on the Sam-Amelia relationship, it raises the prospect that the writers don't appreciate the seriousness of the omission when they have Sam claim that he has been "upfront" with the reasons he didn't look for Dean, when it really hasn't been explained at all. Hopefully, this impression is wrong, and we will see the moment at which Sam concludes Dean is dead (if that is what he concluded), and there will be a revealed logic to his actions.
E
# E 2012-12-12 09:46
This is great Gerry! Well said. I agree with this for the most part. I think that like Dean, Sam's own perspective about his past year is off and he will have to come to terms with it as Dean did and realize the truth of things. I just don't agree about the fanwank being a bad thing necessarily or that it is always an indication of bad writing or bad pacing, or at least it doesn't have to. Fanwanking is fun, first of all. I enjoy it, it's one of the elements I have enjoyed most so far this season. In the case of Sam's current story I believe that we have only seen part of the full arc and that the true story will be revealed in time so we fanwank until it becomes canon. I think its human nature to want to fill in the blanks in a storyline, to make vague issues more concrete. But just because there are holes and vagueness currently does not mean that these will not be filled in or made clear at a later date; we are only on the 9th episode of 23, that's plenty of time to round things out in a meaningful way. And remember, JC is setting into motion a 3 year plan, some of what is happening now may take years to pay off. Lots of time for some very satisfying fanwanking!
E
# E 2012-12-12 09:52
Yikes, this was in response to Gerry's comment miles away upthread about the concept of Fanwanking. Great discussion going on here though, pouring through this avidly and nodding my head "um-hum, yup, yup, oh good point". This is the kind of back and forth discussion that makes this sites comment section so worth it and special IMHO.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-12 12:39
Quote:
I just don't agree about the fanwank being a bad thing necessarily or that it is always an indication of bad writing or bad pacing, or at least it doesn't have to. Fanwanking is fun, first of all. I enjoy it
Quote:
I think its human nature to want to fill in the blanks in a storyline, to make vague issues more concrete.
Great point, E! I think fanwank is a subjective term anyway. A good TV show is like good music - it has depth of multiple layers and inferences - as long as those are layers/inferenc es are coherent and can be explained by looking at supporting canon, then its all good.
RGNYC Rebecca
# RGNYC Rebecca 2012-12-11 16:20
Good points Bamboo24--I agree with them. I think Dean is not seeing that about Sam--but Sam made that comment when angry on the phone with Dean about Ameila being okay--"But you already knew that" to which Dean said "no I didn't." It's almost like Sam assumes Dean knows more about Amelia then Dean actually does. I think Dean may have an inkling now that Sam was in love with Amelia. We can only hope that Dean might be thinking about Sam's broken heart at some point.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-11 16:41
Quote:
It's almost like Sam assumes Dean knows more about Amelia then Dean actually does. I think Dean may have an inkling now that Sam was in love with Amelia. We can only hope that Dean might be thinking about Sam's broken heart at some point.
I agree. I'm not sure if his comment "but you already knew that" was an actual belief Sam had, or if he was saying that out of hurt. But the fact that he thought Dean would hurt him like that on purpose says loads about where they are right now. And I think Dean regretted what he did as soon as he spoke to Sam on the phone. But having regret doesn't make it better. :/
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-11 21:43
I personally saw no regret in Dean. To some extent that actually makes sense to me. Dean doesn't know Sam found Amelia in the arms of her husband. Dean was trying to accomplish a goal, he used Sam's feeling deliberately and it worked. I think right now Dean is not going to cry over spilt milk. He couldn't afford to do that in Purgatory and he's not going to start now, especially for a brother that he thinks isn't good enough.

Dean showed no regret that Martin died because Dean pulled Sam out of the hunt. Yes, Sam was the one to leave Martin, but Dean expected that. He certainly had no reason to think Sam would lug Martin with him to Texas. He might not have seen Sam taking off and leaving Martin in the woods, but Martin didn't die in the woods, he died trying to take down what he honestly believed was a dangerous monster. He had been a friend and a good hunter once and Dean was unable to muster any compassion for him. Right now regret, compassion are not emotions Dean is allowing himself to feel, IMHO.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-11 22:02
Quote:
I personally saw no regret in Dean.
percysowner - I thought the regret was written all over Dean's face and in the expression of his eyes when he hung up that phone. But...as I said...something more than a facial expression of regret will be needed to get that across and especially to convey that to Sam (which I hope he does).

Quote:
Dean showed no regret that Martin died because Dean pulled Sam out of the hunt.
Well, I think Dean thought Martin was an idiot from the get-go. And I'm inclined to agree. I don't blame either of them for Martin's death. Martin was warned multiple times how dangerous Benny was, and he chose to go after the vampire alone, using an innocent for bait. He's got no sympathy for me.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-11 22:06
I agree he looked regretful there and back when Benny said he had his brother and Dean said 'Yeah...'

Problem is what was he regretful for exactly? Hurting Sam, lying to Sam or feeling he HAD to lie to Sam. Those are really all different issues.
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-12-11 21:37
"It makes perfect sense in my head but when I type it out it looks convoluted."

Not to worry, that happens to me all the time! And if I successfully wrassle some coherency out of my ideas, typos sneak in, snickering as they jumble me up again.


"What I was referring to - hunting out of guilt - was hunting WITH Dean solely out of guilt that if something happened to Dean, and Sam wasn't with him, it'd be Sam's fault. Sam can hate hunting - and I'd argue he has - but that is wholly separate than how he feels about hunting with Dean - wholly separate about how he feels ABOUT his brother. "

I agree with you that I don't want to see Sam hunting just because he thinks Dean shouldn't hunt alone. I would argue, though, that the current arc is about how Sam feels hunting with Dean. He loves Dean, but does not think being with his brother offers him something he needs in his life. He has already gently suggested Dean should hunt alone.

When I say the boys need each other, I mean that Dean needs Sam to make him consider issues in shades of grey, because his tendency is to see them in black and white. And Sam needs Dean to remind him he can be connected to his humanity no matter what. If that's not in play any more, and Sam does not need Dean for anything, that's where I see the relationship lacking a necessary dramatic tension.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-11 21:52
Quote:
When I say the boys need each other, I mean that Dean needs Sam to make him consider issues in shades of grey, because his tendency is to see them in black and white. And Sam needs Dean to remind him he can be connected to his humanity no matter what. If that's not in play any more, and Sam does not need Dean for anything, that's where I see the relationship lacking a necessary dramatic tension.
But Dean isn't the same guy he was. He now sees things just fine in grey - evidenced by his friendship with Benny.
And Sam has re-connected with his humanity through that year with Amelia.

Your "fears" are already being realized, friend. :)

But what is left after this? Where to go? I would point back to what I said before, that Sam and Dean realize they need each other simply to have a good hunting partner, someone they can trust to have their backs. Sam and Dean vs. The World. They aren't there now, but if they work through this, I think they can get there.

I don't see how getting to that point would mean there would be no more dramatic tension - surely there are and can be other sources of dramatic tension?
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-12-12 09:05
"But Dean isn't the same guy he was. He now sees things just fine in grey - evidenced by his friendship with Benny.
And Sam has re-connected with his humanity through that year with Amelia. "

Dean at the moment is, because Benny is pulling him that way, and because Sam in the past has pushed him that way. But his tendency to see things in black and white is an inborn trait then moulded further by John--it's not going to disappear. It's his first reaction he then has to temper. I don't think it's a great move for the show to have Sam lose his definition of monster being evil actions, and Dean to have Benny to keep him operating in the grey. It's a fundamental shift in the relationship that isn't well supported for Sam and leaves Dean looking to someone else for something he needs in a partnership. I know Carver will end up putting Sam back in the Impala, but that's not the same thing as the story logic or good writing putting him there.

I would also argue that Sam has connected with a woman who has alcohol issues, communication issues and unsurprisingly, relationship issues and who has been using Sam to avoid processing her husband's death. Sam in turn has been using her to avoid doing his own emotional work and has been following her more than he ever did Dean into the bottle. I really hope the writers didn't put in all the references to Amelia drinking only to drop them. I have great difficulty reading the Sam/Amelia arc as Amelia saving Sam because Sam has not appeared to need saving, while Amelia has been a mess. But if the story is that she has saved him, then I do have to wonder why I should be hoping Sam stays with Dean, hunting, rather than hoping Amelia dumps Don and chooses Sam. Guilt over Kevin as a motivator doesn't power a brother bond.

No doubt some of this will be addressed in the second half of the season. And I hope it will be enough to feel real to me. It's just disturbing to me Carver has not addressed the fundamental issue with Sam in the flashbacks nor had the flashbacks give Sam any epiphanies and it's now mid-season hiatus. I read some criticism by Alan Sepinwall on this season's Homeland, a critical darling show that lost a lot of its way this season due to silly actions by the main characters. He said even if the show sticks the landing in the finale, it doesn't take away all the silliness that happened previously. That's my fear on the Sam arc.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-12 09:15
Quote:
"But Dean isn't the same guy he was. He now sees things just fine in grey - evidenced by his friendship with Benny.
And Sam has re-connected with his humanity through that year with Amelia. "

Dean at the moment is, because Benny is pulling him that way, and because Sam in the past has pushed him that way. But his tendency to see things in black and white is an inborn trait then moulded further by John--it's not going to disappear. It's his first reaction he then has to temper. I don't think it's a great move for the show to have Sam lose his definition of monster being evil actions, and Dean to have Benny to keep him operating in the grey. It's a fundamental shift in the relationship that isn't well supported for Sam and leaves Dean looking to someone else for something he needs in a partnership. I know Carver will end up putting Sam back in the Impala, but that's not the same thing as the story logic or good writing putting him there.
I still firmly believe, that Sam´s stance on monsters hasn´t changed.

His problem with Benny isn´t, that he´s a vampire, the problem is, that he is close to Dean and Sam doesn´t know him, doesn´t trust him and has no idea, if this guy is trustwortyh or a potential threat to Dean.
The fact that Benny is a vamp, only worsens this, but it´s not the heart of the problem.
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-12-12 09:51
I don't know, every argument Sam has advanced about Benny has been that he is a vampire and Dean or Sam should kill him. He hasn't been interested at all in the role Benny played in getting Dean out of Purgatory. In fact, he's really hurt Dean has such a close relationship with a vampire. Sam's decision to trail Benny when Benny is setting up a life far away from Dean doesn't seem linked to worrying about Dean's welfare so much as it does about proving Dean wrong about trusting Benny over him. He is using pretty "speciest" language to make his point. And that is a change for Sam.
RMF
# RMF 2012-12-12 12:11
Well, it doesn't help that some of the dialog in "Southern Comfort" was downright puerile, but even in that script, Sam was warning Dean that if things go wrong with Benny, some hunter is going to have to take him out, and it could wind up being Sam himself. He was not saying that it was automatic, just awfully likely, and there is continuity in this because of his experience with Ruby. Sam can still appreciate the shades of gray while realizing that "good" monsters are few and far between. Having Benny trailed actually does show concern for Dean, because if Dean is so adamant about Benny that he won't even consider he could backslide, then Benny could kill 35 people before Dean comes around to the fact. We can't completely discount the hurtful nature of being put down in comparison to Benny, but in Loflin's more nuanced script, Sam is not dogmatic and is still willing to consider Dean's point of view and give him the leeway to investigate first. That tells me he is not just being jealous and irrational and there is not a huge unexplained change in his outlook.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-12 12:23
Quote:
I don't know, every argument Sam has advanced about Benny has been that he is a vampire and Dean or Sam should kill him. He hasn't been interested at all in the role Benny played in getting Dean out of Purgatory. In fact, he's really hurt Dean has such a close relationship with a vampire. Sam's decision to trail Benny when Benny is setting up a life far away from Dean doesn't seem linked to worrying about Dean's welfare so much as it does about proving Dean wrong about trusting Benny over him. He is using pretty "speciest" language to make his point. And that is a change for Sam.
I agree, but the issue I think is that Sam is remembering how Dean treated him when he was with Ruby, not to mention the reality of that whole situation, and also how Dean acted with the whole Amy incident, which was a pretty big deal in S7. I think he - quite simply - views Dean as a hypocrite. "Oh, so free will only works for you," he said sarcastically in the Premiere. Dean's actions are out of character, and Sam resents that because of their history. Just as Sam's actions seem out of character to Dean given their history, and Dean resents that. But both changes in these characters, IMO, are a sign of maturity and growth. That's why they both need to talk this out and apologize for the things they've said/done to hurt each other so far this season.
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-12-12 14:36
I don't see the growth or maturity in Sam if he's allowing his feelings of resentment at Dean to influence whether he kills Benny, rather than a definition of evil. I also don't think he's thinking straight if he's using Ruby and Amy as examples rather than Kate.

With Ruby, Sam knew as well as Dean it was dangerous to deal with her--he said several times he wasn't trusting her, he was using her because he felt he had no choice. That eventually shifted, but Sam did not start from a place of trust. With Amy, she was actually found in the act of killing and it wasn't her first, so the point of whether she would kill was moot. She had killed. So neither example is a good parallel to Benny. Kate is a good parallel to Benny and both Sam and Dean were on the same page there. Sam is the one shifting stances on monsters. Dean's code since season two is he kills monsters who hunt people, not monsters in general. He killed Amy. He did not kill her son. He didn't kill Kate. He isn't going to kill Benny unless Benny hunts people.

I also think the resentment we see driving Sam's attitude to Benny is that of Dean's fondness for Benny and feeling he has never betrayed him. I understand the hurt, but I don't see Sam's feeling being mature or a sign of growth. He isn't regarding Benny as a "person" the way he did Lenore and Kate.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-12 14:49
Quote:
With Amy, she was actually found in the act of killing and it wasn't her first, so the point of whether she would kill was moot. She had killed. So neither example is a good parallel to Benny.
I would disagree with this. Amy, IMO, is a good parallel to Benny because by the time Dean confronted them, both had killed in the past, and both had promised to Dean's face never to kill again. Benny actually probably killed a lot more people for a lot less than Amy had. Amy actually killed for a "good reason" which, while not excusing her actions makes it all the more tragic.

As for Ruby, I totally see how Sam would see it as similar. A brother trusting a supernatural being over a brother and seemingly keeping secrets, unwilling to see the situation for what it likely is.

But I agree that his thinking is all screwed up right now, because he's holding things against Dean that he would normally advocate for - judging a monster based on its individual actions rather than on its 'species.'

The maturity/growth I think Sam has found with Amelia is separate from how he is acting regarding the Dean/Benny issue. I think his reactions regarding the Dean/Benny issue stem from immaturity and old resentment. Again, if that makes sense. I know I'm splitting hairs.
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-12-12 15:17
"I would disagree with this. Amy, IMO, is a good parallel to Benny because by the time Dean confronted them, both had killed in the past, and both had promised to Dean's face never to kill again. Benny actually probably killed a lot more people for a lot less than Amy had. Amy actually killed for a "good reason" which, while not excusing her actions makes it all the more tragic."

The reason this parallel does not work for me is that Amy had decided not to kill much earlier and yet was in the process of a killing spree when Sam found her, so she wasn't able to keep that promise to herself. Her son's needs trumped her desire not to eat people. When push came to shove, she was a kitsune.

With Benny, he made the same kind of promise not to kill to eat much earlier with Andrea and he's been able to keep that promise to date. But if he breaks that promise, Dean will kill him just as he advised Sam to kill Amy. He's told Benny so every time they meet in so many words and Benny has let him know, again in so many words, that he understands.

Sam's anger in Southern Comfort was that Dean had not pre-emptively killed Benny as soon as they were out of Purgatory. That kind of reasoning is what they discussed about Kate and decided not to follow.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-12 15:31
Quote:
I don't see the growth or maturity in Sam if he's allowing his feelings of resentment at Dean to influence whether he kills Benny, rather than a definition of evil. I also don't think he's thinking straight if he's using Ruby and Amy as examples rather than Kate.
Sam, IMO, is not at all being mature about Benny. That's the problem w/the story.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-12 15:27
But I think Sam's desire to prove Dean is wrong about Benny shows that Sam's issue w/Benny is more about Dean than Benny.

From what I'm seeing, Sam is clearly jealous of Benny. He doesn't like that Dean trusts Benny more than him or that Dean thinks Benny's a better brother than him so he wants to prove Dean wrong. Sam's desire to kill Benny and his obsession w/Benny has nothing to do, IMO, with Benny being a vampire.

Honestly, Benny is not, and has not been bothering Dean or Sam so there's really no legitimate reason for Sam to be this concerned about one (out of hundreds?) vamp out there roaming the world.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-12-12 15:49
Quote:
But I think Sam's desire to prove Dean is wrong about Benny shows that Sam's issue w/Benny is more about Dean than Benny.
Maybe it’s less about Sam not trusting Benny and more about Sam not wanting Dean hanging around with those who could (a) potentially kill him and (b) put him into situations where he could be killed. He’s seen Dean die how many times now? I don't think he'd particularly fancy seeing it again. And odds are (a) either Dean's guard is going to be down around Benny or (b) Benny's presence will lead him into a false sense of security around other scaries.

Quote:
From what I'm seeing, Sam is clearly jealous of Benny. He doesn't like that Dean trusts Benny more than him or that Dean thinks Benny's a better brother than him so he wants to prove Dean wrong. Sam's desire to kill Benny and his obsession w/Benny has nothing to do, IMO, with Benny being a vampire.
I don't see jealousy from Sam. I see fear. Sam has never been jealous of Dean's friends and we have, oft times seen him push Dean towards them when they've fallen out. We saw him push him toward Castiel and also into contacting Lisa.

Quote:
Honestly, Benny is not, and has not been bothering Dean or Sam so there's really no legitimate reason for Sam to be this concerned about one (out of hundreds?) vamp out there roaming the world.
Benny has bothered Dean twice, and twice Dean has come running; once into the middle of a fecking vampire nest (boat?). Sam has plenty of reason to be concerned about this one vampire.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-12 15:56
Quote:
Quote:
But I think Sam's desire to prove Dean is wrong about Benny shows that Sam's issue w/Benny is more about Dean than Benny.
Maybe it’s less about Sam not trusting Benny and more about Sam not wanting Dean hanging around with those who could (a) potentially kill him and (b) put him into situations where he could be killed. He’s seen Dean die how many times now? I don't think he'd particularly fancy seeing it again. And odds are (a) either Dean's guard is going to be down around Benny or (b) Benny's presence will lead him into a false sense of security around other scaries.

Quote:
From what I'm seeing, Sam is clearly jealous of Benny. He doesn't like that Dean trusts Benny more than him or that Dean thinks Benny's a better brother than him so he wants to prove Dean wrong. Sam's desire to kill Benny and his obsession w/Benny has nothing to do, IMO, with Benny being a vampire.
I don't see jealousy from Sam. I see fear. Sam has never been jealous of Dean's friends and we have, oft times seen him push Dean towards them when they've fallen out. We saw him push him toward Castiel and also into contacting Lisa.

Quote:
Honestly, Benny is not, and has not been bothering Dean or Sam so there's really no legitimate reason for Sam to be this concerned about one (out of hundreds?) vamp out there roaming the world.
Benny has bothered Dean twice, and twice Dean has come running; once into the middle of a fecking vampire nest (boat?). Sam has plenty of reason to be concerned about this one vampire.
Succinctly put, Tim. I agree 100%. It ain't jealousy.
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-12-12 16:28
Dean's going to be going into lots of vampire nests during his time as a hunter; it doesn't take Benny to expose Dean to danger, which Sam knows. Sam's shown he can live with the risks Dean takes when he told Dean he should consider hunting alone because Sam wants to live a different life.

And Dean comes running when any person he has a relationship with calls for help. That's Dean. Sam's issue seems to be more centered on Dean backing up a vampire than Dean backing up a friend. Or that a vampire can be a friend. And there's a whole lot of resentment portrayed, IMO, when Sam's tipping point on whether to kill Benny comes after Dean says Benny has never betrayed him.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-12 16:39
Quote:
And there's a whole lot of resentment portrayed, IMO, when Sam's tipping point on whether to kill Benny comes after Dean says Benny has never betrayed him.
I'd say that is because Dean saying Benny is the only one who has never let him down was not only a jab at Sam (I don't know how else I'm supposed to take it), but was extremely hurtful, ridiculous, and untrue. The time he's known Benny and the experiences he's shared with him aren't comparable in the least to all the crap Sam and Dean have seen each other through. Dean seems to have forgotten this, and that justifiably pisses Sam off. What else is Sam to think but that this vampire - from Purgatory of all places, who mysteriously got Dean out of Purgatory for reasons Sam doesn't know or understand - has some kind of unnatural hold on his brother? Bottom line: to say that Benny is the only one who's never let Dean down was proof to Sam in that moment that Dean wasn't thinking straight. Hence, "you're too close to this."
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-12-12 19:51
I think Dean is indeed expressing resentment when he says Benny has never let him down and Sam is indeed taking that very hard. He is pissed off. However, nothing in canon has suggested Sam thinks Dean has been mesmerized, nor has anything in canon suggested vampires can glamour people. Sam is mad and hurt, not suspecting supernatural influence over Dean. This is a very human conflict.

Sam thinks Dean is too close to Benny to know if he can trust a vampire--which brings us back again to Sam stripping Benny of personhood and judging him on his species. Which has not been Sam's position for the last seven years.

I also think Dean's time in Purgatory was the equivalent of being in a world war I foxhole, which means it strips away everything but the essentials. Dean and Benny spent almost every minute of that time together with every day being a potential last day, and that kind of experience makes people very close very fast. Dean does have a basis to judge Benny's character.

That said, Dean is talking out of his own hurt when he says the betrayal stuff to Sam and it makes sense Sam would be hurt. But not that he reverses a position on monsters he's always held to the point he'll kill Benny rather than consider he may be the friend Dean says he is. If the tipping point on going after Benny had been a new piece of evidence Dean wouldn't consider, there'd be no issue about Sam going after Benny. But the tipping point was his anger and hurt at Dean. The anger I understand; the position Sam's taken on killing Benny since the beginning of Southern Comfort, I don't. It's such a reversal of his usual way of thinking about evil.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-12 16:44
Quote:
Dean's going to be going into lots of vampire nests during his time as a hunter; it doesn't take Benny to expose Dean to danger, which Sam knows. Sam's shown he can live with the risks Dean takes when he told Dean he should consider hunting alone because Sam wants to live a different life.
Regarding the fear issue - the episode in question showed Sam nearly having a panic attack when he found out Dean was going into a vamp nest - panic which only increased when Dean smashed his phone. No one can convince me that there isn't fear involved in Sam's mistrust of Benny - not fear OF Benny, but fear FOR Dean and what he could get himself into. After all, Sam knows more than anyone the depth and reach of Dean's loyalty, once given.
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-12-12 20:01
And yet his goal is to convince Dean to hunt alone as soon as they close the gates.

If Sam had shown any sign he thinks Benny being key to getting Dean out of Purgatory meant he should be open minded about him, there'd be more real estate to build a story about Sam's mistrust being concern for Dean. But so far, Sam had his mistrust right out of the gate, asking Dean why he didn't cut Benny's head off as soon as they got out of Purgatory. The mistrust increases every time Sam and Dean have a fight and Dean says something hurtful. That's not based on Benny himself, it's based on what's happening between Sam and Dean.
E
# E 2012-12-12 22:34
It takes Benny to draw Dean into a nest of vampires without Sam at his back......
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-12-13 08:56
Dean went in with Benny at his back, not alone, and Benny is a formidable fighter. Sam knows this now. Sam is the one who wants Dean to hunt without him--he's already told Dean he thinks Dean would be better off hunting alone as soon as Sam discharges his debt to Kevin. He's already contemplated Dean being in dangerous situations without him.

His issue seems to be that Benny is a vampire and therefore inherently untrustworthy, which is a change from his consistent stance previously that our actions make us evil, not our species. Sam went out of his way to tail Benny when he didn't need to tail Lenore or Amy or Kate. He's a player in this triangle and his emotions are involved as much as Dean's are. His anger and hurt are understandable to me, but not the way he's stripped Benny of personhood because he's a vampire.
MelT
# MelT 2012-12-13 09:18
I'm not sure I see a "consistent stance" for Sam previous to Benny. He did let Lenore go after 1. the killings were animals, 2 she kidnapped Sam and let him go, and 3. wouldn't eat him even when Gordon was feeding her blood. Amy saved his life and did also have an alternate life plan, she was a mother and mortician that only offed pimps/drug dealers. Benny has done none of these hard things. He didn't eat in Purgatory as he had no hunger and has now drank blood bags for a couple of months and possibly drank Martin. I don't see that he's beat the struggle so to speak.

(Sorry I fell asleep during the episode with the video cams and didn't DVR, so I could be missing something with the Kate thing)
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-12-13 12:42
To me, Sam has been consistent up until Benny. Lenore, Amy and Benny all killed people prior to finding a way to push back their need to feed on people, which they did for their own reasons not tied to a Winchester. Benny started drinking blood bags when he was with Andrea and had been "dry" before he went to Purgatory--he told Dean in Purgatory his strategy about blood bags.

When it comes to the weight saving a Winchester's life has in trusting a monster, Benny saved Dean's life in Purgatory often and was a key reason Dean got out before something finally killed him. Sam does know this. In the opening argument in Southern Comfort, the boys have the following exchange:

DEAN
You want to talk about Benny? Fine. Let's talk.


SAM
Okay. How about he's a vampire?


DEAN
He's also the reason I'm topside and not roasting on a spit in Purgatory. Anything else?

Sam also questions Dean's belief in Benny about not drinking live blood, but he doesn't give any reason why Dean should not believe him other than he is a vampire. Yet he believed Amy would not kill again despite catching her in the act of killing, Lenore and her nest could resist hunting people and Kate would not kill despite her not having shown she could resist her werewolf nature, the way her boyfriend could not. Sam has consistently believed monsters are not defined by the worst of their nature and they should be judged on their actions--until Benny. He's advocated for killing Benny from the moment he found out about him.

I suspect this arc is going to end with Dean doing what he has said he would do--kill Benny when he finds out Benny is drinking live blood. But it will be Benny choosing suicide by Dean because he's a creature between worlds, belonging nowhere and he knows he belongs in Purgatory. I think the end will be very nuanced and sad and we won't be overjoyed at Benny's death. I'm really hoping Sam will not still be portrayed as black and white on the issue.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-12 16:39
Benny has bothered Dean ONCE. Benny did not call Dean to come and help him w/this current situation. Wasn't Benny ignoring Dean's calls in this episode? He wasn't reaching out to Dean. He was trying to handle the situation on his own. Dean showed up. That's how Dean got involved in this most recent situation.

I don't sense any fear on Sam's part re: Dean's interactions w/Benny. Sam is not afraid that Dean is friendly w/a vampire. He's not worried that Benny is going to get Dean killed. They've (Benny and Dean) interacted ONCE since Purgatory. I believe months have passed since they got out. Benny isn't calling or bothering Dean. He's not pulling Dean to the dark side. He's not involved in Dean's life. The guy has been minding his own business. That's all I've seen so far. Maybe that will change, but I'm not seeing any evidence that Benny is presently a problem and certainly not one that Sam needs to be all upset about. But miles vary as they say.

I have no idea what Sam's problem with Benny is. In my opinion, Carver has not made that clear so I'm forced to fanwank and simply make up a reason.

For me, it's not as simple as Benny's a vampire. Sam's been friendly with and/or given plenty of monsters the benefit of the doubt in the past, so why is he so obsessed w/Benny? Heck, Sam usually self-identifies as a "monster" or "freak," so what's his deal w/Benny? It can only - in my mind - lead back to Dean and his comments re: Benny.

I've come to the conclusion - until I'm shown otherwise - that Sam is more upset w/Dean than Benny, and that he's resentful/jealo us of the place Benny currently has in Dean's heart. Sam's feelings - whatever they may be - re: Benny have nothing to do w/Lisa or anyone else. For some reason, Benny upsets Sam. Maybe one of the writers might decide to give us Sam's POV re: Benny so it's a little more clear.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-12-12 17:24
Quote:
Benny has bothered Dean ONCE. Benny did not call Dean to come and help him w/this current situation. Wasn't Benny ignoring Dean's calls in this episode? He wasn't reaching out to Dean. He was trying to handle the situation on his own. Dean showed up. That's how Dean got involved in this most recent situation.
I do apologise, bothered him once. However, the fact still is that, as a result of Benny, (whether intentionally or not) Dean has found himself in danger twice. And both times, he was without his brother. (I can’t remember if he was ignoring Dean’s calls. I haven’t seen it in a while. However, if he was, would the fact that Benny is ignoring calls not also ring alarm bells with Dean?)

Quote:
I don't sense any fear on Sam's part re: Dean's interactions w/Benny. Sam is not afraid that Dean is friendly w/a vampire. He's not worried that Benny is going to get Dean killed. They've (Benny and Dean) interacted ONCE since Purgatory.
Hence the problem, they’ve only interacted once. Why on earth would Sam trust Benny when he’s never even spoken to him? Add to that, Dean does not seem keen to have him meet Benny so that would up Sam's fear as well in relation to why does Dean not want them to meet etc.

Quote:
I believe months have passed since they got out. Benny isn't calling or bothering Dean. He's not pulling Dean to the dark side. He's not involved in Dean's life. The guy has been minding his own business.
Ruby also went long periods of time without contacting Sam, only contacting him when needed. And it was all part of the plan. Maybe it’s a case of once bitten, twice shy?

Quote:
I have no idea what Sam's problem with Benny is. In my opinion, Carver has not made that clear so I'm forced to fanwank and simply make up a reason.
As do I (as do we all). However, jealousy is not the one I’m going with because, as I said, Sam has never been jealous of Dean’s friends.

Quote:
For me, it's not as simple as Benny's a vampire. Sam's been friendly with and/or given plenty of monsters the benefit of the doubt in the past, so why is he so obsessed w/Benny?
He doesn’t know him? And he’s only going on his brothers word (a brother who himself declared that he’s not the same person after Purgatory)? It’d actually be much more OCC for Sam to go ‘A vampire who rode inside you to get out of Purgatory is your new BFF? Not a bother, boy. Do you want a coffee or will I put on the cartoons?’ and didn’t worry about Benny at all.

Quote:
Heck, Sam usually self-identifies as a "monster" or "freak," so what's his deal w/Benny? It can only - in my mind - lead back to Dean and his comments re: Benny.
And Sam has had years, decades, of being told, and experiencing, that monsters were bad, evil, wrong, traitorous etc. Maybe the message finally sank in?

In relation to the 'trust' comment maybe that does not instigate jealousy but serves as a reminder of how easily and thoroughly he (and to an extent Dean) were duped by Ruby so he wants to stay on his guard around Benny?
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-12 20:25
I'm sorry but I just don't see any reason for Sam to be all that concerned with Benny. Benny, IMO, hasn't done anything - other than being a vampire- to elicit this much interest in Sam. Again, if Benny was inserting himself in Dean's life, then I'd understand Sam's concern.

The story is just not working for me. I don't even know why Sam had Benny followed. It doesn't come from a place of concern as a hunter that a vampire is out there. It's more like Sam wants Benny dead because Dean likes him. Why? Who knows? Maybe it's b/c Sam was extremely hurt by Dean's comments?

As I said before, I'm actually very easy to please. One speech from Sam talking about how he's learned to never trust monsters or him questioning Benny's motives would put a lot of stuff in perspective. From what I've seen, it's unclear to me why Sam is concerned with Benny.

Let's just agree that our mileage varies.
bigenough
# bigenough 2012-12-13 16:45
I believe Jared actually said in an interview that Sam's problem with Benny is directly linked to the whole Ruby thing and that it will come up in an episode (my guess is 10).
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-12-12 21:57
I do think there might be a little jealousy involved, but I agree his largest fears are FOR Dean.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-12 18:16
Maybe I am misunderstandin g but are you saying that if Benny happened to have been a regular human who fought beside Dean that Sam would still "desire" to kill Benny? If all the other circumstances were the same.

Personally I don't think Sam is jealous of Benny and wants to kill him because of it. Sam is quite right to question Benny's sobriety and would be justifed if it came to it, to eliminate him. I think as much as Sam resents Dean's harsh words, he is more concerned about his brothers decision to befriend a vamp.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-12 18:18
Intended for lala.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-12 20:41
No, of course not.

I think Sam was extremely saddened and hurt by Dean's comments in the Garth episode. I think Sam was already upset with Dean for not telling him about Benny as well as Dean's hypocrisy in letting Benny live but eliminating Amy.

In sum, I think Sam is really upset with his brother. I think a lot of his issues with Benny - whatever those may be - are actually issues he has with Dean and Dean's lack of trust/faith in him. Their relationship is in tatters, and that's not Benny's fault. Benny didn't tell Dean to keep him a secret; Dean chose to do that. Benny asked for Dean's help once. Dean chose to lie to Sam. Benny has left Dean alone. What threat does Benny pose? What has Benny done to Sam or even Dean? Nothing so far.

Sam, in my eyes, has an inexplicable level of anger for Benny that makes little sense. I think Sam wanted Benny to be guilty of those murders so he could prove something to Dean. What that is I don't know. Maybe that Benny can let down Dean too since Dean has elevated Benny above Sam and everyone else in his life. For now, I'm calling it jealousy or resentment. But there's a lot of hurt at play too.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-12 21:16
I can understand a lot of what you say lala, but I saw your comment WAY back up there about Sam's desire to kill and obsession with Benny had nothing to do with his being a vampire. I think it has everything to do with it. I see the direction you are coming from however. I really think Sam is concerned Dean that has made a bad judgement call. I don't think Sam is out for revenge against Benny but the hurt and resentment wasn't condusive to Sam just backing off either. Sam has usually been able to seperate his anger from what he feels is the right thing to do under the circumstances IMO. Thanks for the reply lala.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-12 21:25
So Dean saw Ruby save their lives for a year, heard how Ruby kept Sam alive, saw Ruby protect Anna and saw how Ruby taught Sam to use his powers to save people. Still he mistrusted her and that was because Dean is the Dali Lama of monster identification and he is good and pure of heart and knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that you can never really trust a monster

Sam has never seen Benny until he suddenly pulled Dean into a vampires nest and that situation ended up being so dangerous that Dean had to call Sam to the rescue. For some reason Dean hid Benny from Sam as if he were a dirty secret. Dean only has Benny's word that he is not drinking people. Benny is in a town where people are being killed by a vampire. But Sam is only suspicious because he is a petty, jealous, resentful, dick whose only interest is hurting Dean. Because Heaven forbid that after being a hunter for 20+ years Sam isn't PERMITTED to have an objective opinion that differs from Dean. If he disagrees with Dean it is only because Sam is a bad person? That is incredibly biased, IMHO.

BTW, I'm not talking about who is right about Benny. We have been led to believe it is Dean, but Lord knows when Dean was calling Sam a monster for being with Ruby going on and on about how awful it was that Sam was sneaking out to see her, I didn't hear any accusations of Dean's just jealous, or Dean resents Sam for having a friend. For me what's sauce for the goose is in fact sauce for the gander. Sam get the same credit Dean did, that he has HIS hunter's instincts tingling about Benny and he should not be condemned because he doesn't fall in line with Dean immediately.

And before we get into the much discussed Lenore and Kate differences, neither time was there a hunter available that Sam and Dean could trust to just watch either one of them. Gordon typified the hunter view of vampires and John had kept Sam and Dean away from much of the hunting world, so they had few other contacts who might even consider trusting an entire vampire nest, because it wasn't just Lenore it was a group. When Kate ran, Martin was still in the institution or at least hadn't contacted Sam or Dean to tell them he was out and wanted to ease back into hunting. Martin was unique in that Sam trusted him to watch Benny and not just run in and kill him. And you know what, that is exactly what Martin did. He watched and waited and didn't make a move even after he found a body attacked by a vampire. So Sam's initial decision that Martin would not attack without reason was right.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-12 22:21
Percy, I can only say Dean's issues w/Ruby made more sense to me than Sam's issues w/Benny. I love Sam but I fully supported Dean in Season 4.

I don't think there were accusations of jealousy or resentment in S4 b/c it didn't play out that way. I never saw Dean as jealous of Ruby; he didn't resent Sam for having a friend. Dean was genuinely concerned w/what Ruby was doing to Sam. He was worried about her influence on Sam. That worry only grew to epic heights when Dean learned that Sam was drinking Ruby's blood. It also didn't help that Heaven's angels were against Sam associating w/Ruby. None of it looked good. But prior to any of that, Dean knew Ruby. He knew that Ruby had strung Sam along for an entire year w/this idea that she could help Sam save Dean. She had proven herself to be very manipulative. Dean never trusted her in S3 so it was no surprise he didn't trust her in S4. Plus, she's a demon. In my mind, a "good vampire" is more believable than a "good demon. "

The problem I'm having w/Sam's immediate and instant distrust of Benny is there is no basis for it that I can see when considering Sam's own history. When Sam learned that Lenore was not drinking humans, he was fine w/her and advocated letting her and her peeps go. I guess Dean has disclosed that Benny does not drink humans either (?), so if that's true, what is Sam's problem w/Benny? If Sam doesn't believe that's true, I wish the writers would have him say that. If Sam thinks Dean's being played, then I wish Sam would say that. I'm so sick of the writers not giving Sam dialogue and a POV. That leaves the audience to - yet again - make up stuff about Sam like how he feels, want he wants, what he thinks. It's annoying! I feel I know everything about Dean and how he feels about everything, but w/Sam, I'm always left guessing or assuming.

Percy, I do understand your frustration with Dean seemingly always being right about monsters/creatu res while Sam is always wrong.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-12 22:39
comment deleted I apologize for upsetting lala
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-12 23:01
Uh . . . I never said anything close to Sam is "acting from an evil intent." Those are your words, Percy, not mine. I'm not even sure how you got that from my post. I usually enjoy discussing things w/you but do not put words in my mouth.

Maybe you see jealousy and/or resentment as something "evil," but I don't. Those are natural feelings that people have.

I've stated numerous times that I don't get this aspect of Sam's story. I would LOVE to know why Sam cares about Benny, but since the writers refuse to write for Sam, I have to come up w/my own reason. I've given my reason. It's mine and no one else's. No one has to agree. I was hoping I could make you guys understand, but no one does. I've stated numerous times that I don't feel the writers are giving Sam the POV he needs. I don't know what else to say. That's just how I feel about the Benny part of Sam's "story."

And I wasn't trying to convince you (or anyone else) of anything. I thought we were having a pleasant discussion but I guess we're not so I'm just going to back out now.
bigenough
# bigenough 2012-12-13 16:47
absolutely agree, well put
E
# E 2012-12-12 22:26
Actually, Sam IS interested in how Benny helped Dean get out of purgatory and has asked as much. There was even that telling bit in SoCo that showed Garth asking the very same question and Sam in the background giving Dean a VERY clear "yeah, how DID you get out of purgatory?" look in response to Garth's logical question. In both instances Dean clammed up like a .... well, like a clam and refused to discuss it. So, it's not that Sam isn't interested or really even that Benny is a vamp, it's that Dean isn't talking and this only fuels Sam's (IMO quite reasonable) suspicions.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-12 22:33
But see that only supports my idea that Sam's issue is w/Dean not Benny. Sam's arc would make so much more sense if the writers would just have him state his concerns re: Benny.

But that's just my take on the show.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-12-12 21:35
Quote:


His problem with Benny isn´t, that he´s a vampire, the problem is, that he is close to Dean and Sam doesn´t know him, doesn´t trust him and has no idea, if this guy is trustworty or a potential threat to Dean.
The fact that Benny is a vamp, only worsens this, but it´s not the heart of the problem.
I agree. I think there are a lot of factors at play in Sam's reactions, including jealousy and anger with Dean's double standard regarding Amy. But IMO the Benny's potential threat, especially to Dean since Dean trusts him, is a large part of Sam's issues with him.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-12 12:18
Quote:
Dean at the moment is, because Benny is pulling him that way, and because Sam in the past has pushed him that way. But his tendency to see things in black and white is an inborn trait then moulded further by John--it's not going to disappear. It's his first reaction he then has to temper. I don't think it's a great move for the show to have Sam lose his definition of monster being evil actions, and Dean to have Benny to keep him operating in the grey. It's a fundamental shift in the relationship that isn't well supported for Sam and leaves Dean looking to someone else for something he needs in a partnership. I know Carver will end up putting Sam back in the Impala, but that's not the same thing as the story logic or good writing putting him there.
Firstly, I suppose I don't see character changes and development in terms of what we've been talking about as possibly detrimental. Granted, I tend love and look for role reversals and character development - it's part of what I love to analyse about TV shows, including this one. :) Secondly, I suppose I don't see the traits you described as "in-born." Dean believed the way he did because of how John raised him, and because Dean needed to believe in John. I see Dean reaching a point where he's considering that all monsters aren't bad completely on his own, and Sam resenting that due to their history. I also see Sam reaching a point where he holds his own in a the sanity and humanity department after years feeling unable to do so - and Dean can't accept that. And I think that it's a good thing. I don't think it would lead to either of them looking for someone else as a partner, but rather seeing each other through new eyes.

Quote:
I would also argue that Sam has connected with a woman who has alcohol issues, communication issues and unsurprisingly, relationship issues and who has been using Sam to avoid processing her husband's death. Sam in turn has been using her to avoid doing his own emotional work and has been following her more than he ever did Dean into the bottle.
Agreed.

Quote:
I have great difficulty reading the Sam/Amelia arc as Amelia saving Sam because Sam has not appeared to need saving, while Amelia has been a mess. But if the story is that she has saved him, then I do have to wonder why I should be hoping Sam stays with Dean, hunting, rather than hoping Amelia dumps Don and chooses Sam. Guilt over Kevin as a motivator doesn't power a brother bond.
Well, I would say that Amelia's issues doesn't automatically disqualify her from being able to help Sam, just like Dean's issues have never disqualified him from helping Sam, and vice versa. I would point back to the infamous "Born Again Identity" for evidence that Sam , even when suffering greatly himself, is unable to overlook the sufferings of another. He was dying in that psyche ward and still managed to help the girl who was being haunted and tormented by her brother's spirit. That showed great compassion, courage, and strength. I would argue this demonstrated that by helping another, Sam helps himself. I'd imagine that if Amelia was a saint who had no issues, she would have written Sam off immediately, and they'd have no ability to connect. (Also, see my first post for my thoughts on the 'saving' bit).

You should hoping Sam stays with Dean to hunt because that's what we all want. :) It's the reasons that are the issue. This makes me think of that clip from a "Madea" play a friend once showed me, where she describes people in your life as roots, branches, and leaves. Some are there for a short time, some are there for a long time, some are there for a lifetime. Some give you more support than others. I see Amelia as a branch. She was there for a time in Sam's life when he needed that kind of support. Now that Dean is back, that support is technically no longer needed, but for the brother's issues. (But they will work themselves out). That's why I'm not hoping Sam goes back to Amelia. He's going to end up sticking with Dean - a root - but they need to get their crap together.

Guilt over Kevin as motivator for hunting is separate from the brotherly bond, in my view. Just as the reasons why they individually hunt are separate from how they feel about each other.

That being said, I do understand most of your concerns and hope they will be alleviated as the season progresses.
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-12-12 15:00
" Secondly, I suppose I don't see the traits you described as "in-born." Dean believed the way he did because of how John raised him, and because Dean needed to believe in John. I see Dean reaching a point where he's considering that all monsters aren't bad completely on his own, and Sam resenting that due to their history. I also see Sam reaching a point where he holds his own in a the sanity and humanity department after years feeling unable to do so - and Dean can't accept that. And I think that it's a good thing. I don't think it would lead to either of them looking for someone else as a partner, but rather seeing each other through new eyes."

To me, Dean's inborn trait is the ability to make quick decisions--he's a leader, even though his father tried to make him a follower. What his father was successful in doing in moulding his attitude to monsters, and the two things together form Dean's tendency to black and white thinking over monsters and his growth is to realize that. That doesn't take the tendency away. I think Sam has always been an influence on Sam in making Dean take a step back and look at things a different way and Dean will always need someone to do that for him. Which makes it an odd choice to make Sam the one who allows his resentment of Benny to strip away the personhood Sam would ordinarily give him and take away what Sam offers Dean as a partner. That's not growth and maturity.

"Well, I would say that Amelia's issues doesn't automatically disqualify her from being able to help Sam, just like Dean's issues have never disqualified him from helping Sam, and vice versa."

What's not satisfying for me about this story line is Amelia is "saving" Sam by offering him the normal life he says he's always wanted rather than the terrible hunting life he's had. But the relationship is actually toxic, based on escaping reality, which doesn't really show me how Sam is saved. I see it more that he has to wake up and see things clearly. I'd have more patience with the relationship if I actually saw Sam being pulled back from some brink because of it, but all I've seen is Sam look fine and have to save Amelia, who is the one drinking her sorrows away after running off from any relationships she has, which don't look to be many. Living a lie is a really difficult way to portray healing.

"You should hoping Sam stays with Dean to hunt because that's what we all want. :) It's the reasons that are the issue."

The reasons are everything, because if Sam doesn't want to hunt with Dean because he really wants the toxic life he has with Amelia, then I don't want him to hunt with Dean, either. The longer the story builds Sam's needs as being leaving hunting and having Dean let go, the harder it will be to undo that believably.

For example, in Homeland right now, one of the lead characters has made decisions all season that make it harder and harder to believe he can continue to act in the role he has on the show. Story logic says he has to leave or die. He's one of the leads and a fantastic actor. But the writers still have to deal with the outcome of the decisions they gave to him. Same with Sam. Which is why I think it is past time Sam was learning something from his flashbacks instead of piling more story into them.

I understand where you are coming, too and it's possible I will be cheering and agreeing with you by the end of the season. I hope so!
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-12-12 15:02
Whoops--that should be "I think Sam has always been an influence on Dean in making Dean take a step back . . . "

Typing too fast!
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-12 16:08
Quote:
Whoops--that should be "I think Sam has always been an influence on Dean in making Dean take a step back . . . "
I caught your meaning. :)

Re: your "Homeland" comparison (never watched the show), that reminds me of the character of Clay Morrow on "Sons of Anarchy" (great show, btw, just saying). I have no problem with Sam learning more from his flashbacks, but I certainly don't think he's at a "leave or die" point. He's at a "let's sit down and talk this out with a therapist before one of us gets killed point" :P (Yes, I'm being a bit facetious). :)

Quote:
What's not satisfying for me about this story line is Amelia is "saving" Sam by offering him the normal life he says he's always wanted rather than the terrible hunting life he's had. But the relationship is actually toxic, based on escaping reality, which doesn't really show me how Sam is saved. I see it more that he has to wake up and see things clearly.
That's a good point, and I think canon indeed supports that Sam is now looking back on that time as being an escape from reality that he had to be woken up from. Which is interesting. But I don't think it diminishes what he felt at the time when he told Amelia she'd saved him. (Again, I understand your desire to see more of all that, and I hope we'll get it).
RMF
# RMF 2012-12-12 17:36
Quote:
" I think Sam has always been an influence on Sam in making Dean take a step back and look at things a different way and Dean will always need someone to do that for him. Which makes it an odd choice to make Sam the one who allows his resentment of Benny to strip away the personhood Sam would ordinarily give him and take away what Sam offers Dean as a partner. That's not growth and maturity. 
Sam challenges Dean to reexamine the morality of his actions and attitudes in a broad sense, particularly in the early seasons of the show, which is the time Carver seems to be drawing his inspiration from. Right now, Dean is narrowly focused on the fact that Benny had his back in Purgatory, not his potential for wrongdoing now that he's topside and subject to all its temptations. If Dean could acknowledge the possibility that Benny could fall off the wagon -- acknowledge it for real, not when he simply has an ace up his sleeve -- he'd come off a lot more rational and realistic about his assessment of Benny, and Sam would be considerably less worried. But every time his beliefs about Benny are challenged, he responds by berating Sam for his past mistakes, raising doubts about whether it's Benny's true character or Dean's resentment that's calling the shots. Sam is saying, come on, he's a vampire, you have to know the risks. This is an expression of his typical role challenging Dean's black-and-white view of an issue, not really an about-face on his view of monsters.

Quote:
" What's not satisfying for me about this story line is Amelia is "saving" Sam by offering him the normal life he says he's always wanted rather than the terrible hunting life he's had. But the relationship is actually toxic, based on escaping reality, which doesn't really show me how Sam is saved. I see it more that he has to wake up and see things clearly. I'd have more patience with the relationship if I actually saw Sam being pulled back from some brink because of it, but all I've seen is Sam look fine and have to save Amelia, who is the one drinking her sorrows away after running off from any relationships she has, which don't look to be many. Living a lie is a really difficult way to portray healing. 
This part of Sam's storyline is as muddled as his motivations for not looking for Dean. Does he mean that Amelia saved him by offering him a normal life? Did she distract him from driving over a cliff and ending it all? Did she offer him a small respite from suffering so he could regain his bearings? The largest part of those flashbacks is Sam listening to other people talk about their feelings, not Sam articulating his own, so we're ending up with very little grasp on what he got out of the relationship. Then, of course, they've had him denounce those experiences as living in a dream world, meaning what, that it's not okay to take a timeout when you're on the verge of collapse? That he really is an enormous shirker? We get the moment of self-realizatio n without even getting to witness the process, so we don't even understand what he's drawing the conclusion about.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-12 19:02
You raise some great points here, RMF.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-12 11:38
Dean has become more grey about monsters, while becoming more rigid about humans. Either his everyone is forgiven speech was a lie, if only to himself or Purgatory hardened him and made him decide to judge and treat people more harshly. Dean is uncompromising on Sam's betrayals. He discounted Martin for having been in a mental institution even before Martin did ANYTHING wrong. He was willing to kill Kevin's mother, not even trying to save a person he knew. Purgatory was a kill or be killed place and Dean brought that mindset back. Currently Benny is his BFF and Dean sees the grey in monsters. If Benny continues that way, Dean may keep the mindset. But the return to blaming Sam for sins he committed years ago is troubling.

I find fandom reaction interesting. The same fandom that is still condemning Sam for killing a nurse who WAS STILL possessed because he thought it was necessary to save the world, is also saying Dean needed to kill Crowley and if he had to kill a woman he knew in front of her son , well you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. Dean's willingness to kill Mrs Tran without hesitation is a big step away from human and I don't think Benny is a figure who can get Dean back to that level of humanity.
RMF
# RMF 2012-12-12 12:51
Quote:
Dean's willingness to kill Mrs Tran without hesitation is a big step away from human and I don't think Benny is a figure who can get Dean back to that level of humanity.
That's exactly where I think they're going with the Sam vs. Benny arc. Sam challenges Dean's tendency towards absolutism in a number of ways and keeps him thinking about what he does (the monsters in shades of gray being just a subset of this). Benny on the other hand reinforces the Purgatory mindset despite being ostensibly a good guy -- brutal overkill on Martin and Dean's validation of it being one indication. Unfortunately I arrive at this conclusion not because of any stellar work done with Sam's character, but because of what they've done with Dean. It appears that they've had Sam reconnect with humanity this season so he can bring this back to Dean, not because the desire for a normal life arises naturally out of Sam's series-long character arc. It could explain why Sam's storyline feels awkward and undeveloped -- there's no well-thought-ou t evolution for Sam, but there is for Dean.
bigenough
# bigenough 2012-12-13 16:54
which sounds like Sam is basically a plot device for the story of Dean.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-11 23:40
The thing that was unique about this show was the length these brothers would go to for each other. They would literally go to Hell for each other.

AHBL II is a powerful episode because Sam DIED in Dean's arms, and Dean was so distraught and devastated over his brother's death that he damned himself. IMTOD was a great episode b/c you see a Sam desperate to find a way to help his brother, and you see John make the ultimate sacrifice for a son he abused and neglected. In Season 3, we see a Sam wiling to entertain a demon and possibly damn himself just to save his brother. We have the beauty of MS, giving us a glimpse of what a Sam w/o Dean is like. Now, if Sam were to ever give up, that would have been the time seeing as how Dean was DEAD.

IKWYDLS shows us a Sam trying to trade places w/Dean, and in the premiere he tells Dean that no demons would deal w/him. So, we know he made multiple attempts to pull Dean from Hell. In S6, we see a Sam willing to take on Hell memories so Dean is not left alone. In S5, we see a Dean willing to be beaten to death just so his brother doesn't also die alone! And HCW - the only decent S7 episode IMO - highlighted everything that was good and beautiful about the brothers' relationship.

That was the hook. The hook for the show was the brotherly bond, IMO. When people talked about the show, they didn't speak about the mythology; it was always about the relationships. For me, the relationship was always at the forefront w/the mythology in the background.

Now, all of that - IMO - has been dismantled this year by Sam not looking for Dean. I literally do not understand why Sam didn't look for Dean. I do not understand why I'm being shown FBs of Sam in a really boring, normal relationship when I should be seeing him having a breakdown or something b/c Dean just up and disappeared. I do not understand why obsessive, curious Sam does not make a brief appearance and research into what happened to Dean. I'm not understanding why I'm supposed to accept that Sam thought Dean was dead (huh? based on what evidence?) so he moved on w/his life.

We're not even getting an overly distraught, depressed or stressed out Sam in the FBs. He may be a bit muted, but he seems perfectly fine w/Amelia. And aside from Amelia being bitchy, she doesn't seem all that messed up either in these FBs.

This new S8 Carver-inspired Sam is NOTHING like the Sam Winchester I've watched for the past seven years. I do not understand this Sam. You cannot fundamentally alter a character for no reason and call it "maturity" or "growth," esp. when you haven't bothered to tell a story or give the character some perspective. I see absolutely nothing positive or mature about Sam running away (like a coward) from a situation. What's mature about that? How is that positive character growth on a show where the Winchesters are known for sacrificing themselves for each other?

iPlus, If Sam and Dean are completely independent individuals who would no longer DIE for each other, then the show has fundamentally changed and I'm not sure if it is one I'm interested in seeing. Right now, Sam seems to be miserable. He hates hunting. Dean doesn't trust him or have any faith in him. Why is Sam still there?

There's only so many hits a relationship can take before it gets to be too much. Maybe Carver should have re-watched the seasons or caught up w/them b/c the boys have been at odds in some shape or form since S4. If anything is played out, it's the tension and conflict btw the brothers. This year, I find it highly unrealistic that they are still traveling together. Nothing about that rings true to me. From what they feel and what's been said, they should have gone their separate ways by now. It doesn't help that the basis of the tension is this highly unbelievable storyline of Sam not looking for Dean. It couldn't be more contrived.

I liked the way the brothers were in the earlier seasons. I'm fine w/the brothers being erotically codependent or whatever Zachariah said. That shouldn't change, IMO. This is a tv show so I don't need to see healty interactions; I like their unhealthy attachment to each other. It drives the show. But removing that - as Carver as done this year through his Sam character assassination - has hurt the show, IMO. It's more generic now. It has lost what made it unique. I watch out of habit. I've been watching since the premiere, so I'm interested in how the story ends. Over the summer, I balked at the idea of them splitting the season or separating the boys. Now, I just shrug my shoulders and think, "Whatever."

This show is definitely losing something, IMO. I would say its heart. I can't support or understand a Sam that sees Dean disappear and does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. That's not Sam Winchester. That's not how he would react, and Carver hasn't given me a story that would make Sam's inaction make sense. Sam didn't wash his hands when Dean was thrown back in time last year. Dean didn't wash his hands when Sam disappeared from that diner in S2. So, why would Sam do so now? It doesn't make sense.

It is simply, IMO, bad writing.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-12 00:10
lala2,

Quote:
If Sam and Dean are completely independent individuals who would no longer DIE for each other, then the show has fundamentally changed and I'm not sure if it is one I'm interested in seeing.
I guess I don't see how anything I suggested or inferred would result in Sam or Dean no longer being willing to die for each other, or would in any way hurt the brotherly bond. If anything, a little maturity would result in a stronger bond born of respect and love, because it is that exactly that history of unhealthy co-dependence that has born the resentments which are tearing them apart right now - (see my prior posts).

I feel I already have expressed my view regarding everything else, times over.

I sincerely hope things get better for you lala2, one way or another. :)
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-12 02:06
I agree Lala2

For me I don’t have a problem with Sam not hunting but I cannot see how Sam not attempting to look for Dean can possibly serve the story of these two brothers, who have time and again demonstrated ungodly loyalty, love, faith and hope in each other since the pilot. For me it isn’t the language that has caused the damage, it is the actions of the brothers (They have said far worse things to each other (Dean: “I don’t trust you any more, I don’t have faith in you”; and Sam: “you don’t know me, you never have and you never will” So Dean saying to Sam that Benny’s a better brother, while hurtful, isn’t the low point. All of their actions since their reunion stems from Sam not attempting to look for Dean. To me this is the core of the problem. Not demonstrating Sam’s implosion as some point in the FB’s says to me that Carver seems to want to bludgeon the brother bond irreparably, and it is a step too far.

It is pointless because at that moment of Dean’s disappearance, their relationship wasn’t damaged (Sam was, sure, but their bond was strong). Their issues really began once Dean found out that Sam never looked for him. I doubt whether Dean would have had trust/insecurit y issues regarding Benny’s presence or the fact that Sam had found a girl if Dean had heard that Sam had tried to look for him. To me it makes sense that if Sam had imploded; surely and logically (to the story) he would have tried to find his ‘stone one’ again. Not attempting to find Dean has smashed the core and heart of their relationship. How can Dean not question this? This is fundamentally where Dean is at now (I can’t even begin to say where Sam is right now because I would have to … fanwank is it? ? ). It seems he finally has proof that Sam now no longer cares for him (not true but this is how Dean interprets it) So I don’t think it is all the bickering that has severed the bond, it happened the moment Carver compromised the heart and soul of the show by having Sam not attempt to look for Dean.

It was totally unnecessary to break the bond to this extent, and this is what riles me the most. I watch the show because there is this ultimate hopefulness that love does conquer all, and that their brotherly bond is forever and will survive against all the odds, no matter what is thrown at them. For me I need to see that Dean and Sam have some fundamental connection that transcends all other relationships they have with others (and I don’t mean in an erotic sense you understand ?) As an audience we bleed and cry with them; we have watched them fail time and again, we have watched them fail each other, we have watched them give until nothing remains, we have watched them lose loved ones until there is no one left. As Dean says “where is [our] grand prize?” I ask Carver was it really necessary to strike at the ONE pure beautiful unbreakable bond they shared with each other. The ONLY thing they really had which could anchor them. I feel Carver was wrong to even attempt to bruise it let along bludgeon it to death.
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-12 03:47
It occurs to me that Carver has managed to do what heaven and hell couldn't, finally separate the brothers. Hopefully Carver can resurrect the bond by Easter :cry:
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-12-12 04:59
Hi there, kaz. I don't know if you've managed to watch any of S8 since we last spoke, but I have, and while I don't want to disparage or undermine anyone's view of the brothers or the season, I just want to say that I myself feel that Sam and Dean are just not properly communicating or understanding each other at the moment, and as a result are letting many lingering issues between them fester. While I can't presume to know what's going to happen, I, just personally, don't believe for one minute that the bond has been severed, or damaged beyond repair. They just need to work on it, as you do with any relationship.
Just by the way, have you read sweetondean's wrap of the latest episode? I feel she explains it all very nicely.
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-12 06:08
Hi PaintedWolf
Thanks so much for your suggesting I read the Sweetondean wrap. I have calmed down somewhat. No I haven't seen any ep. and am relying on youtube :cry: (so I guess that explains the frustration and lack of information). I came across an interview where Carver discusses the risk taken regarding Sam/Amelia relationship. He seems to reply flippantly which suggests he hasn't truly understood Sam's history. It just seems that the writing for Sam seems to be off. However, after reading Sweetondean, I shall muster my courage and believe once more that Carver and his merry men know where they are taking this relationship and are not breaking the brother bond purely to crank up the tension.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-12-12 06:33
No problem. For me, the fact that Carver knows the reaction they were going to get is a good sign. It means there was thought and planning involved. I do hope too that what is happening is not purely for drama's sake. I have read though that once the show gets back after hellatus, that apparently some of what's been happening will make more sense, and there's another episode that he promises will be "emotinally honest".
I had the same experience you are having now, back in season 4. I relied on nothing but what I was reading on the net, and there were people with less than favourable views on that season, too. That's not to say they were wrong, but I was absolutely terrified of watching because I got the impression that the show was being ruined. Thank goodness I did watch though, because I find S4 to be this show's best season! Guess I'm just saying is, it's probably easier to wait (which I know is kind of hard), and make your own judgements.
If I may make one more suggestion, if you're feeling a little upset, head over to the Let's discuss..the pretty thread. I've been there quite a bit and it's filled with shallow ogling, drooling and lots of pics (if that's your kind of thing, of course) and is quite entertaining.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-13 09:26
Kate got turned into a werewolf, but it was a "special" werewolf that was in control of itself when it turned. Kate hadn't killed anyone and promised to be good. Sam sadly suggested they should hunt her down, Dean said give her a chance, Sam looked happy about that and she went skipping off into the sunset.

This was supposed to be an answer to MeIT, something went really wonky.
bigenough
# bigenough 2012-12-13 17:05
which tells me that Sam is following Dean's retoric on monsters, he would have killed the warewolf girl because he thought based on Dean's past actions and complaints with Sam that that was the right thing to do. He was surprised that Dean didnt want that and pleased because Sam clearly didnt thing she deserved to die and would have given her a chance. He thinks Dean has started to see his way of thinking, to trust Sam even?

Te Benny thing I think is more about Ruby, about Dean's hipocracy in that its ok for him to trust a monster but not for Sam and also about Sam's lack of faith in himself, he made a comment earlier this season about not being a hero and having never been one or something like that? I think Jared said something about Sam conceding that maybe he's just not cut out to be a hunter and maybe Dean's instincts are just better in an upcoming episode. I think this all to do with Sam's own issues with himself as well as with Dean.
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-14 01:35
I am trying to stay positive, I really am. However, my thoughty thoughts always take me back to this one point. Given that JC wants our boys to grow up and morph into emotionally intelligent adults, then realistically we are left with two very different men who have no reason to be together at all. The Djinn ep demonstrated that although Dean’s dream was to be together as a family, without the upbringing that the boys had, the reality was they were too different to relate. It is the angstiness, bossyness, neediness, co-dependency etc that overrides their differences and makes their relationship so riveting to watch.

Sam doesn’t want to hunt, never did (not really, there was always a reason, revenge, responsibility etc) and it seems never will. The way it stands now (or should I say written), if we want what is best for Sam, then my Samophiles (Samophiliacs), he cannot be in the Impala. However, I don’t want him as a Bobby, I want him next to Dean period. Changing the dynamics to this extent, as everybody states, fundamentally changes SPN.

So even if JC has a whole pack of cards up both his sleeves, he is going to have to address this issue. He is left with two choices. Keep Sam in or take him out of the impala. Leaving him in the Impala means we have unhappy Sam who never realises his dreams. Taking Sam out means he is no longer at the heart of the show. OUCH.

No Benny, Cass, Deamon or MOTW will compare to their relationship, which is what I am invested in.

PS I hope I am not repeating anything, I am trying to catch up as quickly as possible to the discussions, so please bear with me for now.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-14 02:32
"I am trying to stay positive, I really am. However, my thoughty thoughts always take me back to this one point. Given that JC wants our boys to grow up and morph into emotionally intelligent adults, then realistically we are left with two very different men who have no reason to be together at all. The Djinn ep demonstrated that although Dean’s dream was to be together as a family, without the upbringing that the boys had, the reality was they were too different to relate. It is the angstiness, bossyness, neediness, co-dependency etc that overrides their differences and makes their relationship so riveting to watch."


Yes, but the Djinn was all Dean´s dream. THat was, what he imagined himself. What he wished for, but aso, what he feared would happen.
The way he depicted himself in there? That´s solely how he sees himself, as lazy, unworthy, and never adding anything meaningful to the lives of those around him.

If Sam had had any influence in that dream, it might have been very different.

So, it was just a sad list of Dean´s "failures"
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-12-14 03:20
"Yes, but the Djinn was all Dean´s dream. THat was, what he imagined himself. What he wished for, but aso, what he feared would happen. "
Fluffy, if I may, my interpretation of what happened in WIAWSNB is a little different, mainly because I've always thought Dean didn't have that much control over the world presented to him. He had a wish-that his Mom never died- and that's all. Then I figured the djinn used his thoughts, memories etc, to create a world for him. One that was in tune with his wish, but I suspect, not completely perfect, so as not to arouse suspicion too quickly (of course Dean kinda already got it). So ,yes, Dean got his wish. His Mom lived, but John still died and he and Sam didn't get along. He still had quite a bit going for him though. Do you mean it was a list of his failures because he'd achieved none of what he saw in real life?
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-14 03:26
What I´m talking about, is the way, people see him there.

He never mowed the lawn.
He forgets his mothers birthday... AGAIN.
You can´t go anywhere with him, because he always misbehaves.

And so on.

If you look at it, the people around him are good and successful and happy, but he is kind of the black sheep and the failure.

And what he wishes for, is his mother being alive and a woman that accepts him, as he is.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-12-14 03:35
I agree, but maybe more about being the black sheep, not necessarily a failure, for my part.
He seemed to be kind of successful himself. Maybe not so much where his family was concerned, but it was implied he had a job. I don't remember if anyone mentioned specifically if the apartment he shared with Carmen was his or her's, but still he had a place of his own, and seemed to be in a pretty stable relationship with what was then, the girl of his dreams. But there are different meanings of failure, I guess. And Dean, in the dream wasn't what you'd call the perfect brother or son, but hey we can't be perfect. Maybe I'm just more lenient on him than he is!
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-14 04:11
we all are... but Dean isn´t

Alright, he´s obnoxious, his sense of humor just isn´t funny sometimes, I can very well imagine him forgotten important birthdays and his skills at empathy can be... yeah... he sometimes has them..

But all of those faults, of being unreliable, of not being a good brother or son... basically, all the failures, he attributes to himself... aren´t what makes him Dean.

His loyalty, his love, the way he puts others before himself, how he cares for others and you just know, when you need help, he will be there.

THAT is Dean... to everybody, but himself.


What I actually wanted to say: The Djinn dream is Dean reflecting on Dean... not a real depiction, of their lives and how they would have been played out.

What I find interesting though, is that DEAN is the one, who put Sam at Stanford and Jessi by his side.
So he must have dreamed, that this was an ideal outcome.
He even said so, in scarecrow. THat he´s proud of Sam, for going his own way.

He´s just so scared to be alone, and not having Sam :/

It´s kinda depressing.

I want them both to have, what they want.
But that isn´t possible.

Though, isn´t their something like uhm.. online degrees in the US too?

I know in Germany, you can take online courses, hand in papers and only show up for the exams, even part time.
And Sam so totally could pull this off!

That would be awesome, if Dean would get him into one of those.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-12-14 03:02
They are two very different people, but that doesn't mean that by acknowledging that means they have no reason to be together. They love each other, and yes, barring their differences, they can and do enjoy being together, we've seen that. People would say my younger sister and I are two very different people too, and we are. We still very much enjoy each other's company. Thing is, you say that crazy co-dependancy has overriden those differences, but I think that's part of the problem, they're not fully acknowledging that, yes, they are different men who want different things. If they get it all out in the open and deal with their remaining issues, I don't see how their relationship necessarily has to suffer for it.
To use my relationship with my sister again, we are very aware of our differences. I tease her about her taste in music, she rolls her eyes when I act too much like the crazy SPN fan I am. We argue, we fight, we certainly don't always see eye to eye, but we still love each other, and nothing will ever change that.
And I don't believe they're planning on making Sam the new Bobby at all. Sam said he would stay for this last hunt, so I don't see why that means he can never have his dreams. Maybe there always will be something to pull him back in, but Sam's not being dictated to by destiny any more, there are no demons or angels (that we know of) keeping an eye on him and making sure he's doing what they need him to. Sam can very easily quit, right now. Sure, as the way things stand, Dean might not be too happy with that, but my point is, he may not enjoy it necessarily, but I do feel Sam, for the moment, has chosen to be there.
They're not the men from Dean's dream-world. They might not relate (right now) to want they want from life, but they do have something to relate to because of everything they've been through the past few years.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2012-12-19 08:40
Quote:
I am trying to stay positive, I really am. However, my thoughty thoughts always take me back to this one point. Given that JC wants our boys to grow up and morph into emotionally intelligent adults, then realistically we are left with two very different men who have no reason to be together at all. The Djinn ep demonstrated that although Dean’s dream was to be together as a family, without the upbringing that the boys had, the reality was they were too different to relate. It is the angstiness, bossyness, neediness, co-dependency etc that overrides their differences and makes their relationship so riveting to watch.

Sam doesn’t want to hunt, never did (not really, there was always a reason, revenge, responsibility etc) and it seems never will. The way it stands now (or should I say written), if we want what is best for Sam, then my Samophiles (Samophiliacs), he cannot be in the Impala. However, I don’t want him as a Bobby, I want him next to Dean period. Changing the dynamics to this extent, as everybody states, fundamentally changes SPN.

So even if JC has a whole pack of cards up both his sleeves, he is going to have to address this issue. He is left with two choices. Keep Sam in or take him out of the impala. Leaving him in the Impala means we have unhappy Sam who never realises his dreams. Taking Sam out means he is no longer at the heart of the show. OUCH.

No Benny, Cass, Deamon or MOTW will compare to their relationship, which is what I am invested in.

PS I hope I am not repeating anything, I am trying to catch up as quickly as possible to the discussions, so please bear with me for now.
IMO The show has already changed fundamentaly. It changed when the angels came on board. It became a show about the angels and demons instead of about the brothers and the family business. Besides how Sam has been written this season, my other big problem with season 8 is that we are going back to that angel/demon thing. Once again that will take away from the brothers relationship which has been rocky so far. The show will no longer be about them and I hate that.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-19 17:26
I completely agree that bringing in the angels created an imbalance in the show that is almost impossible to overcome. The demons were always part of the show and had weaknesses that could be overcome. The angels are so strong that they are not able to be stopped by the Winchesters. Their plans can be momentarily thwarted, but in the end, they are still riding high and manipulating the world. They can only be killed by angel swords. They are far more powerful than demons. They are far removed from humanity and they are still, by their own nature, on the side of God AND Dean is their champion while Sam is still the boy with demon blood and an abomination.

The angels upset the balance of Supernatural and I believe that balance has never been restored.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2012-12-19 21:06
No, it never has been. I'm so not looking forward to the mytharc. This will effectively kill off any chance for a real Sam POV. Sad.
st50
# st50 2012-12-27 09:55
Forgive me if this has been discussed to death, but I've been wondering about something lately...

What do you think is the state of Sam's soul?

When it was restored to him in season 6, Cas said something like it felt like it had been skinned alive... He berated Dean for restoring it, and suggested it was not something he could heal.

After the wall came down, and ultimately Cas took on the effects of that..... what happened to the soul?
Was it still damaged, or did Cas's quick fix take care of that, too?

What would be the effect on a person of living with such a scarred soul?
(Even if Carver seems to have presently forgotten this part of Sam, I haven't :P )
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-27 10:31
I'm sure Sam's soul is fine because as you mentioned in your last sentence, JC seems determined to ignore and disregard the more interesting things that have happened to Sam over the years though I, personally, would love some exploration of the state of Sam's soul.

I'd also like some exploration of Cas's "temporary" cure for Sam's hallucination problem. Unfortunately, JC isn't interested in any of that!
Amy
# Amy 2012-12-27 12:00
Jeremy Carver (and Edlund) isn't interested in Sam period.

This is what Season 8 has told me in very large, very BOLD letters.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-27 13:09
It's really sad because Sam has such a rich and interesting history. Jeremy should be chomping at the bit to play with that history and put his own stamp on it instead of running away from it and ignoring it!

So much could even be done with Sam but all we're getting is a lame romance and an even worse love triangle!
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-01-02 14:35
Quote:
It's really sad because Sam has such a rich and interesting history. Jeremy should be chomping at the bit to play with that history and put his own stamp on it instead of running away from it and ignoring it!

So much could even be done with Sam but all we're getting is a lame romance and an even worse love triangle!
Hi Lala Hopefully there is going to be more to the triangle than we can see at the moment. I was thinking how interesting the meeting will be btwn Dean and Amelia. That is going to be where the story gets interesting to me. To 'fanwank' can you imagine if Dean actually LIKES the girl and gives Sam his blessing. Somehow I don't think Sam will be happy with Dean riding off into the sunset and leaving him to eat his organic apple with Amelia. They won't be damaged ppl anymore, so what WILL they have in common. Just a thought
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-02 15:11
I can't speak to Amelia, because we know so little about her, but Sam isn't damaged because Dean doesn't like his girlfriend. Sam is damaged because he has seen everyone he loves die, with Dean multiple times, and very often they died because Sam simply existed not because he killed them or wanted them dead. Sam is damaged by John, whose obsession turned into neglect and abuse of both his kids. Sam is damaged because his family couldn't accept that he wanted a different life. Sam is damaged because he spent 180 years being tortured, because he has to remember what he did while he had no soul, because he spent close to a year hallucinating Lucifer, while continuing to fight the good fight. To imply that if Dean says hey go have a good life, that ALL of Sam's real damage will go away is pretty insulting to what Sam has gone through.

What will Sam have in common with Amelia if Dean approves of her? I don't know. They had a life where they were each dealing with the emotional damage from their past. Amelia didn't run away from her home, her friends, her family just because her husband died. Normal people don't do that. So she probably still has he own damage that she is still dealing with.

I know that the Amelia story has not been told in a way that most people can relate to. I know Amelia hasn't been explored. I know that the connection between Sam and Amelia hasn't been given much depth, but to denigrate the relationship and to assume that Sam didn't connect with her at all, does not make sense to me. I don't think Amelia is the love of Sam's life, but I do believe he cared for her, made a life with her and found some peace with her. That should be respected.
RGNYC Rebecca
# RGNYC Rebecca 2013-01-02 18:36
I like what you said, percysowner, and agree. Happy New Year!
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-01-03 10:29
To imply that if Dean says hey go have a good life, that ALL of Sam's real damage will go away is pretty insulting to what Sam has gone through.

Hey Percy, sorry about that; rereading my comment I realise that it sounded more flippant than I intended. I was referring to Amelia and Sams' prior relationship issues; seeing as both their family members are back, their initial connect as two ppl mourning their loved ones has shifted and this will undoubtedly affect their relationship. I don't think Sam has had time to think about this. I am suggesting that the love triangle btwn Don, Amelia and Sam might also be influenced by the Dean affect. If Dean does accept the relationship (that is if Don does a dive), it is going to be a curved ball for Sam anyway i.e. he is going to have to let Dean hunt alone (something he has been terrified of doing in the past). However, if he decides to leave Amelia then he will never realise his Harvard/(organi c) apple-pie dreams (not even taking into account that he must leave her unprotected). He is skewered either way.

The way I see it (for now at least) Carver is building up a story arc that will (somehow) resolve both these mens' emotional issues that will take up to season 10 to resolve. What do you think?
Happy new year :lol:
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-01-03 10:36
I need to stress too, that I do understand the decision is Sam's whether to return (or not) to Amelia or hunting and not Dean's acceptance of the relationship (or not).
st50
# st50 2012-12-27 13:00
Sorry I mentioned it. I thought it was an interesting point to ponder. Didn't mean to rehash the bitterness surrounding this season. I haven't given up on it yet, and enjoy thinking about the unanswerable.
Apologies.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-01-04 06:49
Can anyone please tell me; in the beginning of 8X01 when Sam walks into the cabin, does he have any knowledge that Dean is going to be inside or not? I haven't seen the whole ep yet so am not sure if Sam had received the message left by Dean. Judging from a posting on another sight, it was suggested that Sam already knew Dean was going to be there, which explains the lack of shock at Dean's presence.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2013-01-07 05:11
Hi Kaz, I've seen the ep, and to me, Sam was very much surprised that Dean was there. There has been speculation though that he might have known Dean was there, but I don't think it's a for sure thing. My question was, when Dean was doing all the monster tests, how Sam "knew" it was really him?
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-01-10 05:59
Hi PaintedWolf, I agree there seemed to be some knowledge that Sam new Dean was there. Also why go back to cabin if he didn't want to hunt, why not get into the Impala and drive somewhere else after Amelia?. There are many questions like how did Benny know about the portal? There was no evidence that Dean was dead after Dick was sent to purgatory, so why assume that he was? There has been so many times that Dean has disappeared in front of Sam, so for Sam to assume that THIS time is different and he must be dead (without any evidence for it) doesn't make sense. How did Martin get hold of Sam if his phone was off? All these questions and so many more, there must be something (angelic?) going on that hasn't been revealed yet.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2013-01-10 07:50
Yes, there certainly are many questions, which is why, right now, I do believe there is more to this story. One theory I've been going back and forward on is what if the angels (or someone else), did mess with Sam's memory, just so that he believed Dean really was dead? It could explain a lot, I think. That way, once he believed Dean was 'dead', that was when his world imploded, he hit the dog and everything sort of fell into place. I don't remember Sam ever specifically saying 'I didn't look for you', though it's pretty strongly implied, so I'm wondering if he was looking, and someone made him forget? Now I just have to figure out exactly why...
I always assumed he went back to the cabin because it was kind of their home for most of season 7, so it seems reasonable he'd return there at some point.
As for Martin, if I recall correctly (I need a rewatch, stat!) Sam only switched his phones off, and didn't throw them away, so Martin could have had an old number and tried it, or he could have asked for the number from Garth or another contact, tried it and got hold of Sam.
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2013-01-04 16:39
kaz1, this is just the crux with how Sam's side is written! Confusing and parts are drifting around and we have to fill holes!

I think Sam puts his phones into the box in the cabin! But I am not sure..because now Martin could reach Sam via phone number after he was released from the clinic! How can Martin call him and not Dean? I don't know, but its also because I am from Germany and I often don't understand all of the talks!
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2013-01-04 17:30
What happened to Sam Winchester? He had to give up his role of "little brother" for Castiel and Benny! And to validate Dean's anger against Sam, Sam's character was not allowed to show US VIEWERS why he didn't look and that it comes across like he didn't even was interested in looking!

I am asking the Dean fans: What is so bad in letting Dean be a big ("the" big) brother for Sam again and caring for him again? I saw it light years away that Dean cared about Sam and its for me not growth when Dean is not asking Sam anything about his year without Dean. I can't even remember when Dean talked with Sam about Sam and not about Dean!
Dean is asking everybody else how he is feeling and if he is okay and what is not okay, all.....but Sam!
He seems to have easily forgiven Castiel, but not Sam! Dean is all John Winchester on Sam in the years of doom!

I am asking the Dean fans because I think the Dean fans have an influence in how the story of the brothers pan out, how the brothers are written or (better o worse)... not written.

Sam isn't allowed to say anything against Dean, because it will always stab the character in the back. And if he doesn't say something, its also not right (because Sam is a "big boy" now and should speak for himself), and if Sam has a love triangle story, its not right, because its "booooring" and if he is on the right side (ha..as this would ever happen) its fan-wanking!

If the writers don't want to continue the bond-relationsh ip, the dependence-rela tionship between Sam and Dean ...then give Sam atleast a good story on his own, give Sam the real deal Amelia and give him a job at the university where he can read and teach people and connect to normal people (he would be great in it I think). And sometimes he can visit Dean and his new bestest buddies-brother s in the woods! And maybe...maybe sometimes we have a hunch of 200 years tortureed Sam in the deepest level of hell..the cage of Lucifer! Because Sam was there and we should see that in the kind of how Sam reacts and acts ( in the daily little things) and how he is able to stand up every day because of that!

Sam has a real journey of doom in his life ......and redemption! He is a real tragical hero...and I want to see the aftermath of that! JC (and before SG) threw away a big opportunity to tell an amazing story of the character of Sam, its actually very rich and interesting to be able to see this onscreen. But there is so little evidence in the real episodes about this issue!
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-01-12 09:22
As much as there are issues with the Sam didn’t look for Dean idea, at this stage I hope that is simply what it is because I can (try to) make sense of that decision. I think a supernatural solution to what is a very human problem would be a huge anti-climax with all that’s been said and done. From day one, it’s been said that it was a human thing so I’d now hate for the writers to say ‘Boss, that idea we had for Sam’s storyline ain’t working’. ‘Ah well, just give him a mind wipe instead’. That’d almost be an insult. And the thing is, it’s so easy for us to sit here and say that Sam should have done this, that or the other but in reality, it’s not so simple.

People are drawing comparisons with Time After Time when, once again, Dean vanished in front of Sam’s eyes and Sam didn’t give up looking for him. However, that was a completely different situation. With Time After Time, Sam had a starting point. He had a name and he knew where (when?) Dean was. He also knew that it was possible to travel back from the past because Chronos had done it often. So he had a hell of a lot more to go on then than he had here.

In reference to Jody Mills, why would he go to her? Sure, she helped him out in TAT but Sam knew what to do then so he could direct her. She’s still a civilian. It’s highly unlikely that Jody can read Latin or any ancient language so she wouldn’t be much good for research. She has no idea how to deal with the magnitude of possible monsters they might meet while looking for Dean. She would have to learn and process a huge amount of information before she could even understand what was going on, let alone help, so unless Sam wanted to put out an APB on Dean, Jody wasn’t going to be much help.

I do get the protestations that Sam should have looked, I genuinely do. I get why, in a show that is about men doing heroic deeds, people are both pissed and bewildered as to why, on the surface, one of the supposed heroes is seen to be doing something so damn unheroic. Jeez, if you lost your dog you’d knock on a few doors or stick up a few posters around the place at the very least. However, I can also understand being so overwhelmed you can’t think straight, let alone rationally conduct a search. Now admittedly I get overwhelmed by a big load of ironing let alone an event of that magnitude but genuine question, what should Sam have done? Okay, he should have looked, but where? We’re not talking about trying to find your phone in the house somewhere; we’re talking about trying to find a person in a realm somewhere.

So where should Sam start? How far should the scope of his search be? For how long should he look and more importantly, how far should Sam be allowed to go in order to get Dean back?

In a situation like this, how do you decide where to start? I mean, is it an eeney meeney, miney, moe job? Should he try looking in hell first (because Crowley was there)? Except Dean didn’t sell his soul so there’s no reason he’d be in hell. Maybe he’s in heaven because he was with Castiel, but would he be let into heaven after saying 'No' to Michael? Maybe Purgatory because that’s where Dick Roman went but Purgatory was for monsters and Dean wasn’t a monster. He could have been on earth but Crowley did say that Sam was now truly on his own. Could he have been in the fairy realm, the past, outer space or at the bottom of the deep blue sea? So if Sam does a locator spell and no joy, what comes next; try a better, possibly more dangerous, locator spell. So how do you decide where to start, and what if you start in the wrong place?

In relation to research, there isn’t a ‘Find my Dean’ app out there (though they might want to think about making one). People say that Sam should have done research, however brief, so just how brief should this research have been? Should he have googled ‘Where’s Dean Winchester?’ and if nothing came up then that’s the search over? I mean, technically, he did do research...... So what should have been the scope of his research; books, internet, black magic, quizzing (or torturing) angels/demons/w itches/psychics / professors etc for information?

Okay, if Sam looked and wasn’t coming any closer to finding Dean then how long should he have spent looking before he should stop and have it be considered the right thing to do? What’s the appropriate length of time to spend searching for a loved one; a week, a month, a year, ten years, eternity? Should Sam have found a way to go back in time and stopped Dean from ever disappearing in the first place? Jeez, wouldn’t it have been a nightmarish situation if Sam looked for a year and didn’t find him but would have found him if he’d looked for a year and a day?

If Sam couldn’t find Dean via conventional means what's the cut off point in terms of how he should go? At what stage would Sam cross the line from being a hero for his methods, to being a villain for his methods? Should he have made a deal or sold his soul? What if the deal was for someone else’s soul? Should he have tried digging deep and seeing if his powers were actually dormant? Should he have promised to lead the demon army in their next foray onto earth or agreed to release Lucifer and be his vessel again if they brought Dean back? If this was an option to Sam, should Sam take it? I mean, he beat Lucifer once before. Would it be worth taking the risk that he could do it again if it ensured that he got Dean back?

Should Sam have found a way to invade heaven or to summon and torture angels? What if he found an angel and said angel told him that Dean was dead, should Sam just believe them? I mean, angels lie and manipulate the whole time and Sam knows this. Should he just believe them this time and hope he wasn't being screwed over (again)? Or should he assume that the angel was lying and move onto another one until he gets the answer he ‘wants’. Same applies to hell and demons. Should he have summoned Death or found God and threatened them? Should he have sacrificed an innocent? Sam would have the means to do most, if not all, of the above. Hell, he has done some of them, so should he do them again if that’s what it takes? Would doing anything less be considered unheroic? (These are all hypothetical questions by the way so don’t think they have to be answered. It’s just my style of writing when thinking through things like this. Also, the tenses are all messed up, I know but it’s confusing!)

Course, the problem then is that Sam is right back to where he was in Mystery Spot and when Dean went to hell. Dang.

In an ironic way, Sam (and Dean) is cursed by the amount of knowledge and experience he has and as a result of it he has, to a certain extent, been set up to fail. If Sam looked and found Dean eventually, would the argument have been that had he done something else he could have found him sooner. If Sam didn’t shed any innocent blood would the argument be that he should have done? If he didn’t sell his soul for him would the argument be that Dean sold his soul for Sam so Sam should do likewise?

Add to that, (in a theory that’s bound to make me as unpopular as leprosy on your wedding night) I feel there are a lot of similarities between Dean (when Sam was in Cage) and Sam (when Dean was in Purgatory) here. I mean, there’s always something more you can do. I often wonder, back when Sam was in the Cage, if Dean truly believed that he would find a way to get Sam out or if he was only doing research because he felt he had to do something, anything to make him feel like he hadn’t given up on his brother.

One of the things said most often is that Dean looked for Sam and I know that in 6.01 Dean said that he tried everything, he read hundreds of books etc and at the time I was just ‘Okey dokey’ about it then but now I’m thinking ‘Well, did he?’ I mean, he didn’t try Bobby. A prolific researcher who had access to untold research and resources and the one guy who probably knew as much, if not more, about demons, Lucifer the Cage etc as Dean did and he wasn’t Dean’s first port of call when he was trying to find a way to get Sam out? Did he try to talk to Castiel, or use the rings?

Dean said he read hundreds of books but the size of those books! How on earth did he manage to read hundreds of them while holding down a job, a family, a life? And did he hope to find something in these books about the Cage that they had missed previously, that maybe demons, with their generations of research of how to release Lucifer, missed?

Add to that, and I know it’s a horrible situation, but if Dean did manage to get the knowledge of how to open the Cage, then he’s faced with the decision of ‘Is it worth the risk so should I?’ So, is it sometimes better to not have the information so that you won’t have to make a decision, than know how to do something and then decide whether or not you will? Could the same apply to Sam here? If he found out Dean was alive and in hell/Purgatory/ fairy land etc then he would have to make a conscious decision as to whether or not he should risk getting him out. I can't imagine weighing up trying to get your brother back vs the catastrophic damage done the last few times they did do something like that, and trying to make a decision on what to do.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-01-12 12:22
Quote:
I do get the protestations that Sam should have looked, I genuinely do. I get why, in a show that is about men doing heroic deeds, people are both pissed and bewildered as to why, on the surface, one of the supposed heroes is seen to be doing something so damn unheroic.
Hi Tim, you make a good argument for why Sam might have had difficulty locating Dean at all. Notwithstanding the paucity of any leads, one forgets about the bats in the belfry state he was in.

I don't have an issue with the fact that he decided Dean was dead in and of itself. It is just that it has been told so unsympathetical ly. When Dean was with orange Lisa one felt his depression and sadness, he wasn't coping AND we were told he tried to look. Also the audience new that he was honouring his brothers last wish, which gave him kudos.

With Sam there really is no valid explanation, "I guess something happened to me too; You were gone (not dead...did you pick up on that?); I didn't exactly have a road map; I just fixed up the Impala and drove " That's it. The audience is denied the visual experience of Sam's implosion that we got with Dean. Instead we get FB (from what looks like a different show) of Sam meeting, it has been stated 'the love of his life' who is portrayed as a really unlikeable character initially (apart from the fact that the PTB couldn't find an actress with a shred of chemistry with Jared). Why not make her a powerful woman? Why not show someone that resembles a personality that Sam could fall in love with? I have read fans comments that defend her characterisatio n, with is honourable and I can see where they are coming from, but for me, the Sam/Amelia storyline is not well thought out. They have spend so much time on Sam/Amelia FB, that for it NOT to have some long term influence on the season, well I just don't get it. I think that is where the dissatisfaction lies. What do you think?
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-12 14:15
I actually agree with this Tim. It's logical. It makes sense. The problem is how it was written. First the writers never had Sam say he didn't look. Just like in the Pilot when Dean asked if Sam would have answered the phone if Dean had called and Sam didn't get a chance to answer then. In both cases the implication is Dean is right and Sam was a jerk.

All the writers had to do was to give Sam a few measly lines saying "I didn't know where to look. I thought about calling Crowley or an angel. I even thought about trying to restart my powers. Once I realized I was actually thinking about drinking demon blood and getting re-addicted, I knew I had to stop. I was moving toward destroying the world and what was left of my sanity, so I forced myself to stop and I tried to move on with my life"

Even better, have an Exile on Main Street opening. Sam in a hotel room, TV in background saying Sucrocorp destroyed Dick Roman missing. Sam writing down ideas. Hell contact Crowley, make a deal Dead Heaven Cas is there, Dean is happy, Purgatory? open portal, let out Leviathans again Use powers to find Dean, then show Sam trapping a demon, cutting their arm and looking at the blood, fascinated and horrified. Next scene is Sam burning the list, throwing away the phones, getting into the car and starting to drive.

The dialog would have been a couple minute scene. The non-dialog one maybe five minutes. Then everything is done and dusted. Sam has given a rational, human understandable reason for not looking. Some people would have found it not enough, but it would be better than Sam giving reasons that sound weak about not looking.

The season, we have been told is all about perspective but once again it is all about Dean's perspective. Sam's is as hidden as it has been since season four. Couldn't we ONCE actually shake things up and start with Sam's perspective?

I know, you're not writing this so it's not your fault, but it is damned frustrating that we start the season with a perspective that rests on Dean's endless self-esteem issues and belief that Sam doesn't love him enough and not look at anything from Sam's perspective to actively dispute that. If Sam has a different perspective, they have waited an awfully long time to present it. Long enough that Sam's POV may no longer be seen as credible, only as making excuses.
Amy
# Amy 2013-01-12 15:21
I agree with Percy. Why couldn't the writers have an "Exile" scene for Sam? Heck they could have a camera slowly pan across a filthy, destoryed motel room. Similar to Mystery Spot but with a franticness to it. there could be maps, pictures, news articles pinned to a wall...maybe some scraps of papers with symbols and spells on them; decaying food. Then the camera pans to a devils trap on the ceiling, pans down to show the trapped Demon...either dead or alive, but trapped with slash marks, blood everywhere. We hear a crash and Sam falls into view; on his hands and knees, disheveled, throwing up the blood. He's heaving, sobbing, "Not again. Not again." Then he's up, the camera stays on the destoryed room as we we hear a car door slamming, an engine roaring to life and squeeling away.

Next scene is tagged One Year later and Dean pops out of his porthole.

I dont see ANY reason we the viewer can't be allowed to feel Sam's loss but not Dean. For the viewer to know how far Sam went to trying to find Dean and loosing himself. Then Sam's "I ran." would have deeper layers of meaning.

The only reason I can see for the writers to not allow us this is because they didn't want viewers to sympathise/empa thise with Sam. They wanted viewers to be as angry at Sam as Dean was.

PLus...if they showed Sam falling apart then Benny wouldn't get the sympathy they wanted for him. And just imagine the viewer knowing what they do about Sam and then having Dean tell Sam that Benny was a better brother then Sam ever was.

So no, the writers couldn't allow Sam to have an ounce of viewer understanding or sympathy.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-01-12 15:35
Yes I have to agree with you Amy . I think starting at the point shortly after Dean disappeared would of given us the viewer a better understanding of what Sam's mindset was than the walking through the door at the cabin and then ta da there is Dean .

Robert Singer talked about the 'profound' effect on somebody when they are left with nobody truly alone but we haven't really seen that with Sam in the writing at least I dont feel I did.And I do feel they wanted to give some weight to Dean and Benny and Dean's words towards Sam.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-13 22:14
Dean gets all things profound. The bond with Castiel. The scene talking to Sam's body. Breaking out of his own coffin. Hanging in Hell and of course the montage of his year without Sam. Sam gets...not much.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-01-13 14:15
Quote:
the writers never had Sam say he didn't look.
In "Southern Comfort", the last scene where Sam stands up to Dean - he says, "I told you why I didn't look for you."

So yes, they did have Sam say he didn't look.
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2013-01-13 14:58
And why didn't he look? Did he say that too? When did he tell Dean that?
eilf
# eilf 2013-01-13 18:25
There may yet be a surprise reveal with Sam. Clearly there is a hole in the storytelling and I believe that it is there deliberately, the hole being the events immediately after the explosion.
As an aside I like the Amelia storyline and I like Amelia though this ultimatum she is about to unleash about staying or leaving and not coming back makes her seem pretty unreasonable. Girl YOU chased him into the pub, he wasn’t bothering you! If the storyline is not a deliberate red herring I wish they had put more effort into developing it. Someone posted that Sam said she was the ‘love of his life’, I don’t remember him saying that (but my memory isn’t that good) and I don’t think she is, any more than Lisa was Dean’s. Though they were people that the guys loved and good for them, they deserve to be happy.
But I have a suggestion about why Sam is being coy about not looking for Dean, why he doesn’t open up about it (apart from getting shut down when he makes any attempt), why he doesn’t seem entirely guilty about not looking for Dean and why for the most part he puts up with the accusations being thrown at him. It also couldn’t have happened much sooner than now because of the mental turmoil he went through since his mind was fixed.
What if part of the memory recombination has let him not only remember hell but also remember what happened when he died in Season 2? What if he went to heaven and now remembers that? If that was the case Sam would assume Dean had gone there too and would know that pulling people back from there has terrible results. So he left it alone.
Sam doesn’t (normally) throw guilt stuff at Dean and he would be reluctant to say to him ‘you pulled me out of heaven’ with the unspoken ‘and look at the endless torment I have been through since’. They both know the torment Dean went through as well (none of which would have happened if it wasn’t for that one fateful decision) so there’s that too.
It may be that Sam decided to leave well enough alone to prevent any more damage to fated events, and not explain his decision to Dean so as not to add to his burden of guilt, but now he pretty much will have to because Dean won’t leave it alone.
All of that is theory, but one thing we already know is that at the moment that Dick, Dean and Castiel vanished the person left with the most up-to-date and comprehensive knowledge in the world of ANYTHING to do with Purgatory was SAM. If he had no idea what to do then no one else in the world could be expected to. It doesn’t even appear that there are still any Leviathans left.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-13 22:24
Quote:
There may yet be a surprise reveal with Sam.
I'd feel better about this if our previous "surprise reveals" hadn't been demon blood addict, soulless and totally sane after remembering years of torture by Lucifer with only an itchy hand to show for it.

I know I should hold onto the idea of a surprise reveal, but this time I'm tired of being made to wait and frankly it's taking too darned long to get to. I love Sam and I'm reaching the I don't care any more state. Every year we are shown Dean's emotions front and center and Sam is always, always either a disappointment or something for Dean to worry about. Sam never comes out the door with any emotional POV.

Quote:
But I have a suggestion about why Sam is being coy about not looking for Dean, why he doesn’t open up about it (apart from getting shut down when he makes any attempt)
That's a pretty big apart from. Since Sam has no one to talk to, when Dean shuts him down, we don't get to hear him say anything. Garth talked to Dean, Bobby used to talk to Dean, Ellen used to talk to Dean, Benny talks to Dean, Cas talks to Dean. Sam doesn't get talked to or get to talk to anyone, except maybe Jodie, who is conveniently not in the picture.
eilf
# eilf 2013-01-13 23:08
Well while I don't like the demon blood storyline personally that doesn't mean it was a bad storyline, it just made me sorry for Sam and angry with him for letting himself be manipulated so thoroughly so it worked the way it was supposed to (for me).

I loved the Soulless Sam storyline, I thought it was clever and unexpected and sometimes really funny and Jared played it brilliantly - overall I thought they did a really good job of that whole storyline.

I didn't have much problem with the fixing of Sam's head either but maybe I am just too easy to please, I don't know :-)

Anyway I don't feel that those storylines in any way ignored Sam's development as a character, yes we don't get the same insight to him as we do to Dean but it doesn't make him any less interesting a character.

I agree with you that at the moment it would be good to know why he is dong what he is doing. What is happening this year I don't understand at all but personally I am happy to wait and see.

With regard to people to talk to, well Garth offered and was not taken up on it (thankfully), Bobby's dead, Ellen's dead, Cas and Sam have discussions occasionally, Benny is not an option - but Dean isn't talking to Benny about his issues with Sam either.

The rest of my comment was because it seems to me that what is missing is reasons for not explaining why he didn't look as much as reasons for not looking since everyone in the know (actors, writers, showrunners) seems to be insisting that what Sam has said is the truth.

Jodie comes under the heading of 'what on earth happened after everyone disappeared?' along with 'where's Meg?' and 'really, you didn't feel any need to try to find or help Kevin?' That last one really seems to need to be explained I think, and it is why I still think there is a reveal to happen.
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-14 00:16
I agree with this eilf. I liked the demon blood storyline though, it came out of left field and was so shocking that I couldn't help being impressed. I did have a moment of "what the hell?" I never thought less of Sam. I always thought, misguided though he was, that he was doing what he thought was the only way to win.

Loved SS and Jareds stellar performance.

I can't deny that there needs to be more explanation about Sam lost months. I have a hard time believing that no one (JC,BS, writers, etc) cares about telling Sam's story in more depth so I am trying to keep an open mind and hope there is more to reveal. WHO did he contact, if anyone? WHAT was going on in his mind? WHERE did he go, or did he really just drive around? WHEN did he decide to just move on? WHY didn't he make a cursory effort to look for Dean or Kevin? You know, the basics. I don't hold any judgement about Sam's position, in fact I sympathize, but it would be nice to see some of the blanks get filled in.
eilf
# eilf 2013-01-14 17:13
Well roll on Wednesday - we might get some answers :D
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-14 00:36
The demon blood story didn't get revealed until episode 16. If I have to go through 10, 11,12,13,14,15 and most of 16 until I get Sam's story, that will be way too long. Plus, I had to listen to Pamela telling Sam not that he was going about what he was trying to do the wrong way but that his INTENTIONS were evil. Sam got absolutely CREAMED in the demon blood storyline. His increasing powers were deemed to be selfish and arrogant, by Dean, Pamela and Chuck (who may have been God). The Angels said he was evil and Sam was given absolutely NO CREDIT for trying to keep Lucifer caged. He was just pounded by everyone and not one "good" person ever expressed the idea that he did have good intentions.

I admit to liking Soulless!Sam. He said what he thought. I wouldn't have minded him staying until the end of the season and having Dean trying to teach him to act ethically even though he didn't feel it. Yes, he tried to kill Bobby, but he didn't do that until Dean was going for his soul and Balthazar, Castiel and Crowley had all told him that he would be dead or worse if he got it back. Dean didn't go to get Sam's soul because he was a rampaging serial killer. He just wanted Sam back. I understand that. I really understand that stopping Sam's soul from being tortured was necessary, but he could have ASKED Castiel to take Sam's soul to heaven to spare it more pain and kept SS around. My big problem is that half the season was then spent with the sacred wall so we couldn't even see the life SS lived. It simply made certain we didn't know much about Sam again. Unforgiven was supposed to shock us with what SS had done. The real shock would have been that even though soulless, Sam still hunted things and saved people. Instead, we found out that Soulless!Sam acted just as if he didn't have a soul.

The complete failure in season seven to even try to address Sam's trauma is something I can't even begin to get started on.
eilf
# eilf 2013-01-14 17:05
I have to say that morally (as opposed to being able to continue your show with both of its lead characters) I have to agree with you about Sam's soul. It seems to me that since Soulless Sam was an autonomous, sentient being that Dean had no right at all to 'kill' him, which is essentially what getting RealSam back did.
I agree that Sam's soul could have been rescued from hell and not returned to Sam's body.
(and, yes Fluffy, they should get Adam back too :D)
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-16 10:19
Quote:
but this time I'm tired of being made to wait and frankly it's taking too darned long to get to.
I agree
RMF
# RMF 2013-01-12 23:36
Quote:
As much as there are issues with the Sam didn’t look for Dean idea, at this stage I hope that is simply what it is because I can (try to) make sense of that decision. I think a supernatural solution to what is a very human problem would be a huge anti-climax with all that’s been said and done. From day one, it’s been said that it was a human thing so I’d now hate for the writers to say ‘Boss, that idea we had for Sam’s storyline ain’t working’. ‘Ah well, just give him a mind wipe instead’.
Although there's possibly everything right with fixing a storyline that isn't working, I agree that an angelic mindfxck isn't a good direction. After all the sturm und drang, it would make all Sam's decisions pointless. I do think he should have made his decisions for deliberate and human reasons. I just need to be able to believe them when (if ever) they are revealed.

Quote:
I do get the protestations that Sam should have looked, I genuinely do. I get why, in a show that is about men doing heroic deeds, people are both pissed and bewildered as to why, on the surface, one of the supposed heroes is seen to be doing something so damn unheroic.
We've seen unheroic from him before, but the misguided sort, not the ineffectual. The problem is not an audience being unable to wrap its head around the idea of a protagonist doing something base. It's actually the stark departure from not only his known virtues but his known faults. And while we're on the uncharacteristi c, this show is indeed about two men doing heroic deeds, deeds that they have been doing for years and are quite adept and resourceful at. Few things are more effective in a crisis than training, and they have it  in spades. So whereas it would be perfectly understandable for one of us to run around like a ninny if we were dropped into the SPN universe, it takes some understanding why a Winchester would drop the ball.

So where should Sam start? How far should the scope of his search be? For how long should he look and more importantly, how far should Sam be allowed to go in order to get Dean back?
This, right here? Is Sam's story. Or should be. All those intractable dilemmas and thorny decisions are exactly what we need to see Sam work through. If you want to confront your character with a deep ethical crisis, then confront him with it already. It doesn't work to have a character that's known to be obsessive and driven give up at merely contemplating what could go wrong, before he even lifts a finger to find out just what it is he's up against.

To me this ought to be the meat of the story, because we know what Dean would do. He would cross the line. But Sam, being a different person and having been burned more than once by messing with the natural order, might take the longer view and decide he couldn't place his brother's well being above that of  6 billion other people. There's plenty of conflict there, if that's what the writers want, but it's a hell of a lot more interesting than the dreary raking over of the normal vs hunting issue. So I don't know why we are mired in this pedestrian romantic storyline.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2013-01-12 12:26
Let me love you, Tim!

WHenever I´m grappling for words and trying hard to put something together, that makes sense... and whenever I fail, because my non-native English brain is withholding the words.. along comes Tim.
Thank you for that poignant and comprehensive summary.

Actually, what Sam did or didn´t (which, as far as we know right now, may or may not have been all he did)...
Where was I.. Oh yes: What Sam did, was actually the most heroic option possible, in my opinion.

Because, let me elaborate:

a) he has the knowledge to grab angels, demon, creatures and squeeze information out of them
b) he has the knowledge to do all kinds of big bad mojo
c) he has, or at least has had in the past, the psychic power to go through with just about anything
d) He has one weak spot: Dean
e) he has the experience of what happens, when you go full out crazy for that one thing. See Lillith & Lucifer

I am sure, he could have come up with something.
Maybe not in the beginning, with the after effects of his stint in crazy land still lingering and so soon after a row of devastating losses, only the latest of which where Bobby, Dean and Castiel.

In the beginning, he did the therapeutic thing: save baby, fix baby.

And then... he didn´t go full out major assault on anything that might or might not have an inkling where Dean was.
He acted completely contrary to any other instance BEFORE HE DID TIME IN HELL and suffered from it for the next two years.

Sam only overcame the lingering stuff from the last time, he lost Dean like 3 months, before Dean vanished again.

A lesson well learned, I might say.
Play it safe, not for you, but for the rest of the world.
Dean wasn´t alone. If anything, he was with Cas.
And propably in heaven (and I don´t think, heaven has ANY leverage, to deny Dean entrance. I basically don´t think, God would let them! They might try with Sam though...)
SO, who actually, if Dean was in Heaven or wherever, and Cas was with him, the one truly suffering here?
The one left behind alone? The last man barely standing?
The one, that had never really been a part of Cas and Dean´s "more profound bond" anyways?
The one, that already once almost destroyed the world, while trying to get his brother back.

No thank you.
It´s the first thing that comes to your mind.
It may be the one thing you truly and absolutely want to do.
But no, thank you.

Going after Dean, by any means nessessary, would actually have been the weak thing to do here.

And I still don´t think, Sam is truly telling, what he was doing and which state he was in.
He´s just being Sam: keeping it close to his heart and trying not to burden anyone else with his shit.
dinkwerks
# dinkwerks 2013-01-12 14:55
I don't know if this is considered off topic or not, but sometimes I think the writers of episodes should go back and review what has happened to Sam and Dean up to that point when writing the next episode(s). One that comes to mind is in Season 6 (I think) when Dean and Sam have the shapeshifting baby and they are both freaking out over the baby....well, I kinda thought Dean really shouldn't be freaked over a baby, as he raised Sam from 6 months old....Sam I could see, but not Dean. Then Dean makes mention of Lisa's sister having a baby....and I'm thinking well Dean, you raised Sam, so this should be old hat to you.
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2013-01-13 13:33
Do you really think a 5 year old Dean changed Sam's diapers? I don't think so, Dean was traumatized from his mothers death (and it was mentioned that he didn't speak for some time), I think that John changed diapers and maybe he got a sitter for them for some time when he tried to find out about Marys death! And give baby Sam 2 years and he didn't need diapers anymore.

Diaper issues were strange to Dean I believe that!
Amy
# Amy 2013-01-13 13:51
Not to mention John would be in shock for a bit. He'd be going through the motions of normal as he attempted to process what it was he saw. It would be a gradual process of relinquishing things to Dean as John got more and more involved in what he investigated... learning more.


I wish people would stop making Dean into some super toddler
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-01-13 14:01
Quote:

I wish people would stop making Dean into some super toddler
Me too I like Dean but sometimes it gets all out of porportion .
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-01-13 14:11
Quote:
I wish people would stop making Dean into some super toddler
Quote:
Do you really think a 5 year old Dean changed Sam's diapers?
While I get the gist of what you guys are saying, and to an extent agree, I just wanted to chime in with this: kids who grow up in difficult situations - abuse, neglect, poverty - often become extremely resourceful. I say this from experience - there ARE children as young as 5 out there, taking care of their younger siblings and doing the work of a mom as best they're able, and that includes changing diapers. And they do it in spite of trauma to themselves. So while I'm not sure if Dean changed Sam's diapers at the age of 5 or 6, it is at least plausible. It all depends on how involved one thinks John W. was and/or how bad one thinks the boys' childhood really was. I'm just saying not to deny reality - it's certainly a possibility.
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-13 14:53
I would like to point out that 5 yr olds are not toddlers. Now Dean might not have changed diapers at five but he most assuredly had to take care of and watch over his little brother more than most siblings and it informed his entire life, as well as witnessing his mother frying on the ceiling.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-16 09:39
Quote:
as well as witnessing his mother frying on the ceiling.
I don't think he witnessed his mother frying on the ceiling.Quote:
watch over his little brother more than most
Yes,but the problem is when people assume Dean was some super toddler otherwise what you said was spot on.My thoughts are Dean became so protective of Sam after the striga incident.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-16 09:47
Quote:
I don't think he witnessed his mother frying on the ceiling
Dean did tell Lucas in Dead in the Water that he saw what happened to Mary. It was quick, but he did say it.

I do agree that Dean wasn't a super toddler who took care of Sam from the time of the fire. For one thing we were also told in that episode that Dean didn't speak for quite a while after Mary died. My impression was a year, but I don't remember if they said how long. In case, Dean was a traumatized four year old who couldn't even really take care of himself, let alone a baby. John didn't go off the rails immediately and start hunting, he stayed in town, presumably got a babysitter, and then later took off hunting. So Dean didn't jump into caring for Sam mode for quite a while. I do think the Striga incident made Dean more focused on the idea that taking care of Sam was "his job".
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-16 10:18
Quote:
Dean did tell Lucas in Dead in the Water that he saw what happened to Mary.
I don't remember this but then again I don't remember all the dialogues:). But the way they showed it in the pilot it did not look like Dean witnessed it.Again a matter of what they showed and what Dean told
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-16 18:53
Hi anonymous and percysowner, not disagreeing with anything here, I just have a feeling John might have been pushing the idea as soon as he could that watching out for little brother was what he was supposed to do. It didn't really hit home until he saw the look on dads face during Striga incident. No, I don't think that he was a super child at that young age but the seeds were planted and planted deep soon enough. Every time I see one of those scenes with the boys left alone I feel so sad for them. This was not the first time Dean was charged with watching Sam. It seemed to be a routine by then.
dinkwerks
# dinkwerks 2013-01-13 13:54
Basically, guys, what I was saying is that sometimes I think the writers should go back look at episodes from previous seasons to have a good contiuum storyline....no t wandering all over the place like they are doing with Sam....the only thing I could come up with was the baby shapeshifter plotline and I still think it odd (but that's my opinion and we all know how opinions are)....anthing is possible....loo k how many times the guys have died and been brought back to life....
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2013-01-13 14:52
bamboo and dinkwerks

yeah of course I know that kids are able to do this, but for me ..it was like an affirmation that the early years were not like Dean did all those things for Sam! There was also a sitter for the kids in an episode while EK was still the showrunner, and here Sam was older (already in school) and made his reading plans (I am not sure about which episode it was) I think this is a blurred view of Dean..I think this
dinkwerks
# dinkwerks 2013-01-13 15:34
Guess I'm going to have to back over all the seasons again and watch them....which will be difficult since my hubby is not a supernatural fan and it makes it kinda difficult. Basically, the point I am trying to get across here is that the writers need to folllow the threads of Sam and Dean's lives....someti mes the arcs are off.
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2013-01-12 15:50
Amy
Quote:
The only reason I can see for the writers to not allow us this is because they didn't want viewers to sympathise/empathise with Sam. They wanted viewers to be as angry at Sam as Dean was.

PLus...if they showed Sam falling apart then Benny wouldn't get the sympathy they wanted for him. And just imagine the viewer knowing what they do about Sam and then having Dean tell Sam that Benny was a better brother then Sam ever was.

So no, the writers couldn't allow Sam to have an ounce of viewer understanding or sympathy.
I agree so much with your comment especially with those words! Its just the logical writers POV setting things up in a certain way! I just can't see it different! It is so so sad for me what they have done!
E
# E 2013-01-12 17:04
Quote:
The only reason I can see for the writers to not allow us this is because they didn't want viewers to sympathise/empathise with Sam. They wanted viewers to be as angry at Sam as Dean was.

PLus...if they showed Sam falling apart then Benny wouldn't get the sympathy they wanted for him. And just imagine the viewer knowing what they do about Sam and then having Dean tell Sam that Benny was a better brother then Sam ever was.

So no, the writers couldn't allow Sam to have an ounce of viewer understanding or sympathy.
Hi Amy, I think you may have really hit the nail on the head with this comment. I'll bet that this is exactly what the writers have done and are doing with the current storyline. However, the irony for me is that if the writers had actually done it the way that YOU describe here, "And just imagine the viewer knowing what they do about Sam and then having Dean tell Sam that Benny was a better brother than Sam ever was.", and had allowed us to see what Sam was truly going through and then piled this awful conflict on top if it, it would be IMHO all kinds of awesome!!! The drama and angst would have been excruciating. Too bad the writers don't seem to have the guts to go that far outside the established box.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2013-01-13 04:47
To me, they have done it.
At first I started out with: OMG Sam, what did you do?!!!!
And as the season developed it more and more changed to:
Dean, you stupid §$%&!

And thenj I went back to 8.01 and watched... really watched the first episode and suddenly realized, it was all there. We were just trapped into trodding along with Dean´s overblown accusations, while HE was the one who went behind Sam´s back with Benny.

ugh.

In the writing, it´s all there, but not in the episode.
I´m not sure if it´s the acting, that didn´t get the point across, or the directing, or if it was deliberate. No idea.

And I´m not sure either, if they´ll go back, at some point and go and have it bite Dean in the ass.
I´d love that one!
Amy
# Amy 2013-01-13 12:27
Fluffy, you've lost me. I'm not sure what you are trying to say...whats all there?

How did Dean go behind Sams back with Sammy? DO you mean Dean was manipulating Sam by using a nickname Dean hasn't had a right to utter in the last few years? The nickname he's used to put Sam down, remind Sam he's less of a brother, hunter...less family in the last few years?
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2013-01-13 12:48
Benny.. I meant Benny.
To much talk about Sam, Sammy, Samandriel Sammy.

Sorry ^^
Amy
# Amy 2013-01-13 12:57
Ahh got you. Should have figured it out.

I think you would be right if the writers hadn't written benny as the bestest thing eva to happen to Dean. And make Benny the woobiest vampire ever to live...all with the shiny glowy POV.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2013-01-13 13:32
But Benny has HUGE issues and Dean never should have left him alone. He´s not the slightest bit over his blood lust, as he himself told Dean.

The fact, that Dean did, btw, shows very clearly, that Benny is NOT a better brother to him.
Dean never would have left him alone and dealing with stuff, if he was
Amy
# Amy 2013-01-13 13:46
Wouldn't Dean thinking Benny such an awesome brother, takes him along out of Purtgatory and then just sends him out into the world with a blood lust Benny hasn't had to deal with in decades...

Wouldn't that make DEAN a sucky brother to Benny? lol
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2013-01-13 13:49
But if Dean truly viewed Benny as a brother... as he does with Sam, he wouldn´t have left him alone.

Btw, Benny still hasn´t come clean, who "they" are ;)

He may seem cute and cuddly.. but he isn´t, and not in an unconcious way, as Madison for example was.
I love this guy to pieces, but there is something very very fishy about him
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2013-01-13 14:07
Fluffy...I am curious... why do you love Benny to pieces?
Amy
# Amy 2013-01-16 09:31
Thing is Dean has never asked. Or demanded answers.

What exactly is it about Benny that you love, Fluffy. I'm curious.
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-16 19:13
Hi guys, sorry to butt in, and I am sure Fluffy can speak for herself but what she says kind of mirror my feelings. I think Benny, as portrayed by Ty, comes across as likable and sincere but there is a feeling that I shouldn't buy into that 100 percent. There are too many unanswered questions from SC and who the "they" were in purgatory. The performance is very winning and if he turns out to be duplicitious than good on Ty for pulling it off.
eilf
# eilf 2013-01-16 19:44
I agree with you and fluffy Leah. Benny is oh-so-honourabl e (apparently) and he talks a good game. But it is hard to know what he could ever do to prove himself entirely trustworthy now that the Purgatory food truce is over. One little cut and a human (like Dean for instance) could be lunch.
And, yes, he has too many unanswered questions. Though it is interesting that Dean didn't demand to know who 'they' were...
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-16 21:31
Yes, and also the whole vamp- soul- into- Dean's- arm, spell thingy. Where did THAT come from? Did "they" teach Benny that? It is very curious that neither Dean or Cas pressed him on the "they".I sometimes think back to Dean telling Benny that he didn't regret anthing they did there and wonder what he meant by that. Oh well, probably reading too much into everything. Again.
eilf
# eilf 2013-01-16 19:50
Sorry this posted in the wrong place - my bad
eilf
# eilf 2013-01-16 19:51
LOL I give in. That wasn't my fault!
Amy
# Amy 2013-01-13 12:32
The drama and conflict would have been organic, as we see both boys sides....watch them NOT talk to each other. It would be drama worth watching and fans would root for thge boys to talk, to iron things out.

It gives BOTH boys a right to feel what they are feeling.

But Carver states his position in the beginning of the season. I should have known he was going to do what ever he could to destory SAm as a charector and thus any support from fandom.

THIS is my perception.
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2013-01-13 10:17
Quote:
So where should Sam start? How far should the scope of his search be? For how long should he look and more importantly, how far should Sam be allowed to go in order to get Dean back?
This, right here? Is Sam's story. Or should be. All those intractable dilemmas and thorny decisions are exactly what we need to see Sam work through. If you want to confront your character with a deep ethical crisis, then confront him with it already. It doesn't work to have a character that's known to be obsessive and driven give up at merely contemplating what could go wrong, before he even lifts a finger to find out just what it is he's up against.
Yes this is exactly what I missed in Sam's story line. Not so the myth arc involvement but knowing the history of Sam and now this reaction without any further going into exploring. We get here a "I lost my brother Dean" and "I ran" andI imploded" and a frantic Sam trying to rescue a dog, we got Sam who was accused and was looked down by all the others he met, included Amelia, her dad, when they first met them, included Don when he first met Sam, he didn't want to hear Sam even!

For me it is season 4 all over again, but this time it may be that Dean did the thing what he thought Sam did back then, but we get the sympathic look at Dean and his brethren and a cold and unsympathetic look at Sam and his worthlessness (even the son of the motel owner said to Sam that he is at fault for the dogs surgery) Why telling Sam's story like this????? Why??? And why weren't we allowed to see Sam's decisions, Sam coping after Dean vanished, Sam mourning after his brother was blown up??? Why??? Its not like I wouldn't want to see this part of Sam's story, this is the most important and the most powerful part of Sam's story since this series is not only a (once great) horror series but foremost a series about two brothers, the core! I am ... as a viewer denied to see that core through Sam's eyes even in times where it would have been so much important to see it and it would have so much strenghtened Sam's side of the brotherhood (which isn't a brotherhood anymore to me)

Jeremy Carver denied me Sam's POV!
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2013-01-13 10:20
Sorry I am not a native english speaker and my last comment was directed at RMF!!! I put the name in "quote" but it didn't appear!
lala2