At the press roundtables, we got roughly six or seven minutes with each of the panelists and hear their take on the upcoming season 8.  Out of everyone, Jensen seemed to be spilling the most information.  We had talked to him third, right after hearing Mark Sheppard and Misha Collins just offer cute teases with no information (don't get me wrong, they were still fun to chat with).  

I'll issues a spoiler warning now!  First is the video, and below is a summary for those that don't have Youtube friendly access at work (cough me cough).  

http://youtu.be/cUcnqODKc4k

His first words:  “I feel like I didn’t answer a thing, probably because we don’t know anything.” 

The episode he’s directing, which will be episode three or four, is a standalone.  It’s going to be a flashback episode on what Sam was doing while Dean was away.  

There are going to be some new characters introduced.  “There’s going to be a character that gets Dean out.  Because “I need you and you need me.  Separated we can’t get out but together we can get out.”  Obviously that character, he doesn’t go away right away and Dean is indebted to him and of course he’s not a good guy.  That is a character that gets introduced in the first episode.”  It is a guy, but he won’t give the name.  

“Because maybe there’s things that Dean hidden (he) doesn’t want to tell Sam that happened Purgatory, much like his experience in Hell when the floodgates that opened up that one time and he explained what it was like in Hell.” 

Why did Dean have such a hard time forgiving Cas when he forgave Sam for such a similar betrayal.  Jensen had an easier answer for that.  “I think the easy answer is Blood.  I think the easy answer is family.”  “I think the short answer is it is his brother.  There might be grudges held between them but at the end of the day, that’s the closest that he has to a companion and he has had for many years.”  

He also thinks that Castiel being an angel makes it harder for Dean to relate, just like it’s hard for Dean to relate to a monster. “His brother is flesh and blood, it’s tangible.”

He gave some good information on the mythology coming up.  “We’re dealing with some Mayan Gods.  A deal was made back in the Mayan days and it’s proving to affect a few different people in modern day.  They are removing people’s organs to use for themselves and use for some sacrifices.  Of course Dean doesn’t like that, so he rallies Sam.  Sam is more focused on getting Kevin back.  Dean is like, look fine, great, but we haven’t found him, we can’t ignore this because this is what we do.  So they go off and try to save some people. 

Comments  

Katie
# Katie 2012-07-15 21:54
Thank you for this! He's so gorgeous here and, my God, those hands!

Also, while Jensen was talking about Castiel I just happened to notice Misha walking behind him and sitting a table, also behind him.:D
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-07-15 22:48
I know I'm ranting and being completely irrational, but the episode that deals with what Sam did while Dean was in Purgatory is A STANDALONE? It is something that is completely not important to the rest of the season? You can miss it an not miss anything you need to know?

The spoilers I have read have me seeing red and this just adds to the fire.

Sam isn't important, again. Any episode focusing on him is a standalone that needn't be counted.
Michelle Kinseth
# Michelle Kinseth 2012-07-15 23:07
Unless I've completely misread all the articles from today's SPN panel, I'm fairly sure the flashbacks of Sam and Dean will be all season long, and not contained to this one episode. Also, if you can watch the video Jensen says there will be A flashback. Not that the entire episode is the flashback, so don't think we won't see more. I think they'll be giving more attention to what happened with both guys when they were apart this year (via flashbacks, maybe each episode), unlike what they didn't show us in season 4.
misty
# misty 2012-07-16 12:57
And I think Sam has been shown to the the important one, I think DEAN is the one they always try to say isn't important.
Sage
# Sage 2012-07-15 23:08
My disappointment at the spoilers that have been thrown today knows no limits. Not gonna lie, I hope they're misleading, or they're hiding something very important.

Sam's characterizatio n makes no sense if what we've heard today is true. It's like throwing several seasons of character development to the wc.

Sorry, I'm slightly mad at this.

I kind of like the idea of Dean making a deal with a 'bad guy', though. So, on Dean's part I'm okay, but Sam's bits make me sad.
lala2
# lala2 2012-07-15 23:40
Sage, I am LIVID!!!!

I am so shocked and upset by what I read today that I don't even know what to say. If it's true (and it probably is) then Sam's character is about to be completely assassinated and obliterated. Why? I have no clue.

I guess these writers just don't care how Sam looks or what happens to him. It's really horrible! And very disheartening. Honestly, I may not even watch if those spoilers come to fruition.
Sage
# Sage 2012-07-15 23:55
I know. I'm thinking of not watching the season.
I'm sorry, but I don't want my Sammy treated like this :( will hurt too much.

Anyway, what the hell are they thinking? Why would they? And I wonder if they've kept what Sam has done all these past seasons in mind, because looks like they didn't.

Agh.

No, really. I think I'll stick to seasons 1-5, and forget the rest even exist.
lala2
# lala2 2012-07-16 00:03
I hear ya. I may not watch next year either. The Sam bashing has already started and will only continue.

After reading those spoilers, I honestly thought, "Why do the writers hate Sam? Why?" I'm bi-bro, but Dean has NEVER been thrown under the bus like this. This will be the SECOND time Sam just screws over Dean. Thanks, Writers . . . . that's just what I wanted to see again!
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-07-16 00:22
Well, if they don't want Sam fans watching, I'm willing to accommodate them. I can avoid the show. I will definitely be pulling back from the fandom.

Sam doesn't save Dean. Sam is happy that Dean is dead. The heart of the show is dying.
lala2
# lala2 2012-07-16 00:28
I know, right? And supposedly the writers knew it was important to bring the boys together quickly but think it's okay to show Sam not caring that Dean just up and disappeared?!?! ?!?! That doesn't make a lick of sense.

Why in the world would they write it that way? Why are there tire marks on Sam's freakin' back?

I'm honestly at a loss as to why Sam is hated by the writers and why he can't be shown caring about Dean like Dean is shown caring about him. The show is supposed to be about brothers who would die for each other . . . . I guess that's no longer the case!
paintgirl770
# paintgirl770 2012-07-16 16:11
Wow. Over-react, much? Did the writers"hate" Dean when he went on with his life (WITH a love interest) when Sam was in the cage? How was that different? (It actually may have been worse, since Dean knew exactly where his brother was). Just go ahead and quit watching. I for one, am excited for the new season with a new show runner, and willing to withhold judgement until we see how things shape up.
misty
# misty 2012-07-16 16:55
Dean only went to Lisa and Ben because he promised Sam he would; I never really saw her as a true love interest, just an obligation. He did care about her sure, but his heart was always heavy because he thought his little brother was dead and in hell. It wasn't like he was happily living his life. And the moment he found he found out Sam was alive he was almost ready to leave with him right away.
That being said though, I STILL do not understand why so many Sam fans, again of which I am one, still believe Sam's been shafted. Yes, his Lucifer hallucination breakdown certainly was not given the weight and attention it deserved, but then neither did Dean's laughable excuse for a story arc.
Last season sucked for both boys. BUT; in the seasons before that, the writers have ALWAYS given Jared the juiciest story arcs and much more opportunities to showcase his acting skills, which he did wonderfully. He hasn't been shown to be the 'bad brother' to me, he's always been shown to be the smarter, better, more capable and more important one. So I still can't understand what you guys are so angry about. I think Dean fans have alot more to be frustrated about. He almost NEVER anything juicy, and whenever he actually is supposed to be the hero, in the end they turn around and give it to Sam. I would just like to have the interesting story arcs and acting opportunities to be meted out equally.
Alice
# Alice 2012-07-19 00:40
I wouldn't say "many" Sam fans. Just the vocal ones.
Hades
# Hades 2012-07-18 11:42
I am so with you right now. I'm going around the net reading a lot of rubish about Sam right now for baically doing the exact same thing Dean did 2 season ago. Not to mention the stuff people seem to be making up about Sam not caring about Dean because he persues normal instead of spending every moment trying to find Dean. News flash people Dean wasnt searching for Sam while he was baseball games, having bbq's, making halloween costumes and making dinner for Ben and Lisa. He had a family and a day job too and went for drinks with his fiendly neighbour. He said he looked but ultimately he he had normal.

There is no evidence that Sam didnt look at all and there is no eveidence that he wasnt sad about loosing his brother again. Jared said Sam grieved and he had a hard time without Dean, he isnt with Amelia when the season starts so it wasnt all sunshine and roses and picnics with his replacment family. If Sam turns around and says 'I looked, I didnt even know where to start' I think that will be fair.

To tell you the truth I'm glad Sam has gone after something for himself, I'm glad he hasnt fallen into the same old Winchester pattern and I think he deserves to have the chance at normal. This was the idea oppertunity given that he literally had nobody left to fight for, he was completly alone. I'm suprised he had the will to get up every morning and live let alone fight and endless fight or a seemingly lost cause.

Well done Sam.
karen nuttall
# karen nuttall 2012-11-16 04:32
The writers portrayed Dean has looking sad (with Lisa), you could see he was trying to do what Sam wanted but he was sad and wasn't coping. Hopefully they will show Sam being sad that Dean isn't around. The fans need to SEE that Sam is affected emotionally. Sam saying that his world imploded when his brother died, without showing how it affected him is where (I feel) the writers have strayed. I wanna see tears man. Also why didn't they have Sam make a grave or memorial for Dean. That would have shown some kind of care. What do you think?
Alice
# Alice 2012-07-19 00:38
Oh no, this is Sam vs. Dean. That's a big rule for us. I'm letting it slide because it happened several days ago and I'm only getting it to it now, but trust me when I say I can cite several examples where Dean's character hasn't been given much justice either. Plus this is the Dean thread. "Why do the writers hate Sam?" is not a relevant question here.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-07-16 00:07
I admit that Supernatural is on probationary status for me. I don't want to quit, but I lived with the Sam bashing in season four and I won't do it again. I'm feeling sick about these spoilers and I can only think of a very few ways to make them come out acceptably. I just want to cry right now.
Sage
# Sage 2012-07-16 00:37
I don't want to quit, but I don't know, I prefer to keep the good memories. We'll see what happens.

I guess this is how every Sam fan feels now,and, as much as saying this hurts, I hope the ratings reflect how annoyed we are.
misty
# misty 2012-07-16 16:57
Edited by Alice. Violation of our rule #4, "Don't put words in other people's mouths."

http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/news/64-rules/14338-we-are-a-happy-site-but-there-are-rules.html
Sage
# Sage 2012-07-17 09:59
Well, if Sam is literally destroyed beyond reparation as a character, no, I won't. I like both Sam and Dean, not only one brother. I like them being brothers and loving each other and caring and being awesome.

It's not that sam has to be the hero all the time. It's that I want the writers to follow up the characterizatio n they built up, and, if possible, not to throw shit at one of the main characters to make him look like the worst brother.

And above all, it's bad writing, because Sam has been shown to be good, caring, and selfless. He said he was the less important, that his pain and his hallucinations were nothing compared to what everyone else had.
I can't see that Sam, from last season, in this Sam that sees his brother as a burden.
Luciano
# Luciano 2012-07-16 02:47
Your not giving it a chance they will explain everything. They always do.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-07-16 09:23
And, with the exception of him being soulless which he couldn't help, every time the explanation is "Sam is an arrogant jerk". Actually showing Sam soulless just gave more credence to "deep down inside, Sam is really a jerk, pretending to be a good person".
lala2
# lala2 2012-07-16 10:56
What explanation could there be other than Sam is a selfish, uncaring bastard? There is NO reason for Sam to NOT look for Dean. None at all.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-07-16 16:46
Pardon my 2 cents - but I've followed the news from comic con very closely (cuz I love spoilers) and no one EVER said that Sam didn't look for Dean.

What they DID insinuate was that Sam was unaware that Dean was in Purgatory (Crowley never told him where he was, just that Dick was dead and God weapons have a big recoil), had no leads on Dean's whereabouts, was left totally alone, and likely believed Dean was dead.

There is no character assassination going on here, rather, Carver is aiming for character development. I was actually heartened by how he described the emotional journey he wants to take brothers on, allowing BOTH to grow and have new experiences.

Also - I think people are jumping to conclusions. Consider how many times the actors said they don't know anything because they've only worked with one script. The rest of the info came from vague descriptions of general story arc ideas that may or may not play out like they say. I agree with Luciano - you should give it a chance.

I'm more of a Dean fan myself, and aside from S4, I think Sam has been shown to be courageous many times, caring, thoughtful, loyal, and incredibly strong of heart. Even in S4, Sam did what he did with good intentions. He and Dean have both made mistakes. They're flawed heros. Knights in tarnished armor. But that's what makes them watchable.

However it's frankly illogical to think that the ones who've created these characters and put so much time and energy into the show don't care how they look or what happens to them. It's one thing to criticize something you've seen already, but I just don't understand the incredibly narrow-minded, pessimistic reactions to these spoilers so early in the game.

I for one, am excited about the possibilities and where Carver takes the show!
lala2
# lala2 2012-07-16 17:03
I think many of us are basing our opinions on this comment from Ben Edlund:

“Dean will feel slightly resentful that Sam didn’t try to find him, according to Edlund. Dean will essentially ask “‘why didn’t you look [for me]? We had a tacit agreement that we always look [even if we said we wouldn’t]’. ” Padalecki also said that Dean will question how Sam just cut himself out of a life of hunting. Wasn’t he paying attention to the strange things happening around the country? For his part, Sam will explain that he knew there were other hunters out there to take care of things and he chose to do this with his life instead.”

Okay. Maybe my view is overly negative, but that comment, to me, strongly implies that Sam doesn't even try to look for Dean. I hope I'm wrong, but Jared's comments (didn't watch the videos but just read the recaps) seem to confirm this idea that Sam just washed his hands of the situation and went on w/this life.

Ben could have used the words "gave up," but he didn't. He said Dean resents Sam for not trying to find him. Jared, as far as I know, has not disputed that; his comment only reinforce this idea that Sam did nothing but twiddle his thumbs while Dean was somewhere suffering.

I have a major problem w/the writers portraying Sam in this manner as I don't think it is true to the character. I wouldn't like to hear this about Dean either. They have to come up w/a real good reason why Sam doesn't even try to find Dean, and I don't believe they can.

There's no reason he wouldn't look.

I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't know w/this show. I don't have much faith after Season 7.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-07-16 17:53
Maybe there IS a good reason why he didn't look. Maybe Edlund was just expressing Dean's POV - it's entirely possible that Dean for awhile believes his brother didn't look, when really Sam did. Maybe there are going to be some really compelling, emotionally honest moments between the brothers this season (Carver insinuated such) and we should be looking forward to that.

My point is - give the writers a chance. We have a new showrunner, and I have faith that S8 will be different from S7. Better, even. Carver seems tapped in to the emotional undercurrents of the brothers' relationships with themselves and the world, and I think that's great.
Have a little faith! :)
lala2
# lala2 2012-07-16 20:49
Quote:
My point is - give the writers a chance. . . Have a little faith! :)
It's hard, Bamboo! Haha! These spoilers really threw me for a loop, and Season 7 left a really bad taste in my mouth. For now, I like to assume the absolute worst possible scenario so I'm not greatly disappointed when it pans out or I can be pleasantly surprised if it's better than I thought!

I wish I had faith in JC but I don't . . . . not yet anyways!

I am happy for those who are feeling positive about the show! I wish I could too!
Hades
# Hades 2012-07-18 12:19
thats a very good point, we are getting Dean's POV on this if you look at it, he comes back and thinks Sam didnt bother looking. For all we know Sam did look but he struggled to even know where to begin. Sam's POV may be just that, he tried. Its Dean's POV saying that he didnt try. In Dean's opinion he tried to get Sam back when he went to the cage, maybe if Sam had come back a year later with a soul he could have questioned Dean's definition of trying? Mayve he wouldnt have seen it as Dean trying at all.
Sage
# Sage 2012-07-18 13:53
I'm really hoping that's what happens. We usually get Dean's POV of the story, and if Sam's keeping a secret about what he did or what he tried, Dean wouldn't know and we wouldn't either. at least till shit hits the fan and the lies are discovered.

That's the only rational thing I can think of.
Alice
# Alice 2012-07-19 01:05
Quote:
However it's frankly illogical to think that the ones who've created these characters and put so much time and energy into the show don't care how they look or what happens to them. It's one thing to criticize something you've seen already, but I just don't understand the incredibly narrow-minded, pessimistic reactions to these spoilers so early in the game.
I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you.
Melanie
# Melanie 2012-07-16 00:38
I'm thinking that what Jared is saying about Sam and why Sam is doing what's he's doing is just as vague for S8 as it was before S6 when fans were shocked at how Sam could possibly have not told Dean he was out of the Cage.
Turned out there was a plot driven reason both for Sam's actions and for Jared not giving the real reason for Sam's seeming indifference.
So I think we need to wait and see what other shoe drops before getting upset.
Of all of it -- the retread of a Lisa-type scenario with Sam & Amelia is the part I find the most worrisome -- mostly because its boring as all hell if Sam is 'happy' in the non-hunting life.
Michelle Kinseth
# Michelle Kinseth 2012-07-16 00:45
Totally agree.

Except for the Sam/Amelia part. I'm very curious and intrigued and want to see how Sam lives a normal life...
Sage
# Sage 2012-07-16 02:11
That's the only hope I keep, that there's something important they're not telling us, that forced Sam to act like this.

And yeah, another Lisa-style scenario doesn't make me very happy. It's a bit repetitive.
kaj
# kaj 2012-07-20 02:06
Quote:
I'm thinking that what Jared is saying about Sam and why Sam is doing what's he's doing is just as vague for S8 as it was before S6 when fans were shocked at how Sam could possibly have not told Dean he was out of the Cage.
Turned out there was a plot driven reason both for Sam's actions and for Jared not giving the real reason for Sam's seeming indifference.
So I think we need to wait and see what other shoe drops before getting upset.
Of all of it -- the retread of a Lisa-type scenario with Sam & Amelia is the part I find the most worrisome -- mostly because its boring as all hell if Sam is 'happy' in the non-hunting life.
Jared said that Sam always wanted to get out of the hunting life ever since a very long time. (The pilot) And I remember the season finale of S6 that the reason Sam was willing to suffer through his Hell memories because 'He couldn't let his Brother out there alone' Essentially, Sam hated hunting and wanted to have a normal life but because Dean's there he gave up his dream to accompany Dean? I don't think Sam's that shallow.

I really really hope above all hope that there is a plot driven reason for Sam to be just "happy" in the non-hunting life. Does he actually glad that Dean died/gone/disap pear so that finally he could live his dream and normal life? What a cruel character to write!

Perhaps Sam was having a major break down after the season finale, perhaps the Lucifer memories return and he was half crazy or just batshit crazy. I mean no stone number 1 (They couldn't disregard that, right?) How can Sam has a will to live after that ? How powerful is this Dr. Amelia compared to Dean? Compared to the stone no. 1?

I hope Jared is just teasing and misleading there. If it happens according to what Jared said in the Interview I'd gladly take S4 arc than this and I very dislike S4 Sam.

Another thing I fear is that this is the backflip of S4. Different flavor, but actually similar in Plot and theme.
Luciano
# Luciano 2012-07-16 02:45
I am positive they will explain. They wont just fuck up his character. I wrote a reason in the video wer dey r interviewing Sam
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-07-16 09:24
As we were told in the original panel, Castiel did not abandon Dean, Sam did. See, simple.
Alice
# Alice 2012-07-19 01:07
??? Which panel?
Michelle Kinseth
# Michelle Kinseth 2012-07-15 23:09
Jensen looks beautiful, and surprisingly well-rested (for working all week I mean!), and he sounds excited!! More excited then he has for awhile, IMO! His excitement makes me excited. :)

I am loving every single tidbit of info we are getting out of CC, and thank you for posting this video. Though now October seems even more impossibly far away!
Melanie
# Melanie 2012-07-16 00:27
Very nice interview!
rmoats8621
# rmoats8621 2012-07-16 00:58
I thought that this was a great interview.

However, I'm very disturbed by some of the comments made by fellow posters. Chill and calm down. I think that some are getting way too upset before we even see the end product. They've only just begun to shoot and it hasn't even gone down to post production for editing, etc. Who knows what it will look like until they have the finish product... Plus we all want to see what Sam is doing while Dean is in Purgatory, right? I know that I do...I think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions too early. How about waiting for the season premier before drawing them??? Anyway, I'm sure they're going to do a standalone episode on Dean showing his activities, too and I know that I want to see that too.

Also, another point...a standalone episode would be easier for Jensen to direct. That way he can focus on his directorial task and not on his acting part. He seems to shine on these type of episodes. Plus I like his spin on Jared's character. I think he adds something that he and Jared both know about Sam from their point of view.
Michelle Kinseth
# Michelle Kinseth 2012-07-16 01:17
I was struck by how excited Jensen was, talking about the show and the new season! I haven't seen him that excited about the show for a few years, which leads me to believe that Jeremy Carver et. al. are doing something right!

I simply cannot wait, and am very hopeful and excited to see what these teeny, tiny, miniscule tidbits of information turn out to be. :)

Also, I think people are misunderstandin g, thinking that this episode is all we'll see of Sam's time apart from Dean. I think it'll be a lot more than just one episode. I also read that Dean's presence in this ep (the one he's directing) is larger than the last two he did, and he's been doing scenes as Dean every day of shooting. I'm just psyched. :) I feel like season 8 will be truly wonderful!
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-07-16 09:27
It's not that I think this will be the only episode where we see Sam's time away from Dean, although if history holds, it will be close to the only time. It is that it has been stated that Sam is HAPPY with Dean missing and perhaps dead and that he has done NOTHING for a year to help Dean, to help Kevin, to help the hunting world. Heck, even Soulless Sam killed big bad monsters, while having sex. He may have had innocent casualties, but he didn't say screw the world, I'm going to have fun.
rmoats8621
# rmoats8621 2012-07-16 18:03
Mybelle, I agree. I think a lot of people are reading into things and making a "mountain out of a mole hill". I really like the idea of a standalone episode for both guys plus sprinkling other tidbits throughout the season. It helps cement that what went on before has a direct effect on current events. Sam and Dean will both have their time to shine both apart and together.

Also, I agree about Jensen. I haven't seen such a smile on his face or excitement in his voice for quite a while. Past interviews seemed to be so serious and heavy. He really seems to be enjoying himself. His excitement is rubbing off on me!!!! :D
Alice
# Alice 2012-07-19 01:08
Oh Ruth, you should have been there. I haven't seen Jensen that happy about an upcoming season in a few years. He was downright grumpy last year. We were all smiling with him.
rmoats8621
# rmoats8621 2012-07-19 23:14
I wish that I had been there Alice. Although with my luck, I would have been stuck at the door like last year....Oh well. I met lots of nice people last year.

You're so right about Jensen. He did look so unhappy last year. I don't think that either one of them liked the direction of the show, but being the professionals that they are, they backed the writers and were probably hoping for the best. However this year, I've seen a lot more smiling and joking around...almost giddy!!! I know that I'm excited about the new Season. I mean they've got Carver/Edlund/T hompson as part of the writing crew. That's a fantastic, talented bunch of men. :D

Also, I didn't realize that Singer's wife was one of the writers on the show. I hope that her (& her partners) episodes get more in line. I do like that they seem to be the only ones writing about relationships. I just want more "meat" to the scripts! (If you know what I mean) :D

CYA in Vegas!!!
Blue Steel
# Blue Steel 2012-07-16 01:38
I need to know this isn't just a reboot of season 4 and season 6, done strictly for Dean's benefit against Sam. I'm not interested in anything related to Purgatory now. If Sam is not connected to the main story with the main POV, then I'll watch but my ability to give a crap is fading. The execution had better be spot on and as Sam friendly as possible. I don't know how Jared tolerates Sam being shat on every damn season like this with so much loyalty. The writers should all be ashamed of themselves for the last 4 seasons.
misty
# misty 2012-07-16 13:13
Where does Sam get crapped on? He's always been the one who's been shown to be the only one that matters! All they ever say Dean is good for is looking after
him! And Jared has ALWAYS gotten the meatier acting assignments!
I love Sam and I certainly don't want to start fan wars and one vs the other, but it sounds to me like a lot of you guys think that if EVERYTHING doesn't revolve around Sam being the hero, that you think he's getting a raw deal! Come on, HE'S the one getting a real romance! Please tell me how Dean has been treated so darned much better than Sam?
Usually they tell him how weak he is, not as good a hunter as Sam, not as smart, parents loved Sam the most, etc. And even though DEAN was the one who was supposed to stop Lucifer, they turned it around and and gave THAT to Sam also! He's ALWAYS the hero in the end! And that's ok with me, because again I LOVE SAM, I just don't get where some of you guys think that it HIM that get crapped on! In my opinion, you guys don't have that much to complain about!
Sorry to the moderators, I really tried not to do this, but these comments just got to me. I will try to refrain from this in the future.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-07-16 13:36
In the fan sites ( not by all) but ones who crap sure do it much
lala2
# lala2 2012-07-16 13:52
Uh....He's getting crapped on if they portray him as an unfeeling, uncaring bastard who doesn't even try to look for the brother who sold his soul for him and saved him numerous times who just disappeared right before his eyes!

That is NOT someone I can root for, and I love Sam. He's getting "bussed" as we say in the soap opera viewing world or shafted! It's character assassination - plain and simple. Sam wouldn't just shrug his shoulders after Dean disappeared right before his eyes, and it's insulting for them to write him in that manner.
Bevie
# Bevie 2012-07-16 16:00
Hi misty - Do what I do now, to reduce the blood pressure, and ignore the posts by the posters' names. You can tell what they are going to say before you read them.

I come on here for the pleasure of discussing my favourite show and have learned to sift through the wanking ones.

Sorry to Alice also, and I hope I haven't broken any rules. It's just the way I cope with the perennial nay-sayers. I don't get into the wars as I'm too old for that nonsense and need to keep the blood pressure in check.

Love Dean and Sam and the others and enjoy the show immensely and love to read all the interviews pre-season. If I didn't, I wouldn't be commenting here.

And thank you so much Alice for getting all this lovely stuff from the Comicon and other cons.
paintgirl770
# paintgirl770 2012-07-16 16:17
Excellent idea, re ignoring certain (negative, predictable) posters. Gonna do that from now on.

From the shallow end of the pool, didn't both the guys look lovely? Yum
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-07-16 17:22
(Edited by Alice. Sorry Tim, but I have to edit this one. Calling out other posters is unacceptable and you know it. Bevie was fine with her comments. I just think tempers are running high.)
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-07-19 06:32
Bevie, I apologise for any offense I caused you; that certainly wasn’t my intent. The content of your comment upset me hugely and I reacted based on that.

Alice, I’m sorry that you had to edit a comment of mine. I genuinely never thought the day would come when that would have to happen and I’m devastated and ashamed that it did. Rest assured it will not happen again.
LEAH D
# LEAH D 2012-07-19 15:36
Hi Tim,
Just wanted to say that you should not feel so bad, everyone lets their emotions get the better of them sometimes. Your posts are some of the most articulate, funny, insightful on this site. I hope you will not be discouraged from commenting. This site would not be the same. Nor would it be the same without many others including:
Emmau,Kelly,Misty,Percysowner,lala2,Pentadactyl,Bevie,anonymousN,Mel and so many more. You all are why I visit this site.
Alice
# Alice 2012-07-19 01:17
No Bevie, you're fine. I just haven't been able to keep up on the comments lately. Tempers do flare this time of year, that's for sure.
Alice
# Alice 2012-07-19 01:16
misty, the comments are a little antagonistic I'll give you that, but please don't say things about "Jared has ALWAYS gotten the meatier acting assignments." That can't be further from the truth! "Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things," "Heaven and Hell," "What Is and What Should Never Be," "Let It Bleed," "Dream A Little Dream of Me," "In The Beginning," "The End," shall I stop there?

This violates many rules. "Be nice," "Show respect," "No Sam vs. Dean or Jensen vs. Jared," "Don't put words into people's mouths," and "Have respect for what we value on this site."

Simmer down please. Don't take everything so personally.
kaj
# kaj 2012-07-20 05:03
I get it if what Blue Steel means by Sam getting crapped on is the characterizatio n of him.
In Season 6 Sam was written to be downright cruel but then we're shown that was because he was soulless.
Season 4, well, he was written almost like a monster, sucking blood and all, doing questionable things. Although, he was having a dilemma about it.

I'm beginning to suspect that that was what the writers' view of Sam. That Sam was created like that and what we've seen for all this time (at least since S4) was the real Sam.

One of the commenter here said that perhaps deep down inside Sam was a real jerk and he was just pretending to be nice. Because Sam without a soul was a jerk.

What Dean said in Repo Man about a psyco was spot on. They were just crazy people who pretend to be sane.

Does this apply to Sam too? That he was basically a jerk but trying to be a good person but deep down he was, well ... I couldn't even find a word.

Dean was having a dilemma in WIAWSNB. Why was it his job to save those people, why him. And in Sam Interrupted he finally admitted "Because there's no one else' Even 3 seasons later he was still having that kind of dilemma. In his heart, very deep down Dean was a hero material. Because He was written like that.

Sam was written differently. ALways wanting to get out of hunting, having anger management issue. Sam was written as a brother who trusted a demon over his own brother. He was written to be the one who is not family oriented kinda guy. He was kinda arrogant.

It seemed the one that sucked Sam into hunting was Dean. He was fine in the pilot. Living happily away from his family with more than 2 years incommunicado. Then, Dean came and he was sucked back right in driven by vengeance to kill YED. Season Three driven by Dean's deal. S4 driven by (again) vengeance to kill Lilith (even though Dean was right beside him. Still baffled about that). S5 he was driven by guilt, making up to his brother, cleaning up his mess. S6 he was soulless and soulless Sam enjoyed hunting (weird) and in the end he was driven (again) by Dean. Because Dean was out there and he couldn't let his brother alone.

S7... I don't even know what drove Sam to hunt S7. Hell memories? naah ... Leviathan? ... naah ... Leviathan was still at large at the end of last season and they should be at large too next season but from the interview, Sam was stated choosing out of hunting life and living normal life. He let other hunters take care of them.

Conclusion, even in S7 Sam hunts because of Dean, because Cas made a mess and they were the one who had to clean it. Dean was tired of hunting in the beginning of the season. Now that Dean is not there. Nothing drives Sam to hunt. If there's no Dean in S7, I believe Sam would not want to hunt. He would let the Leviathan roamed free. His word "because i couldn't let my brother alone out there"

So, another conclusion, because Dean was gone finally Sam could be free to live his life just like he wanted for a very long time. Dick Roman exploded taking Dean with him. No vengeance drives Sam because the bad guy too was dead. Crowley took Kevin but Kevin was not his brother. Sam always driven by vengeance just like John. Now, there's no one to kill. He could summon Crowley but Crowley was not the one who killed Dean. Sam just assumed that Dean went poof along with Dick due to the God's weapon.

Sam was written like that, it's his character. I wish he was written differently but I'm beginning to suspect that Sam was created like that. That what makes the fan upset.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-07-20 05:36
Quote:
Because Sam without a soul was a jerk.
I thought anyone without their soul would be a jerk...
also i had always thought the one who sucked Sam back into hunting was Azazel or more specifically Jess's death.
Problem is not that they have showed always Sam leaving but that it has been portrayed that Sam leaving is always bad...
kaj
# kaj 2012-07-20 20:41
Quote:

Problem is not that they have showed always Sam leaving but that it has been portrayed that Sam leaving is always bad...
So, you see the problem here, right? If they always portray that Sam leaving was bad then why portray him leaving at all?

Can the writers please write a Sam that not leaving? (because they always portray him bad anyway?) Why can't they write Sam who is devoted to finding Dean? I mean, I know everyone he knows are dead but not everyone. Missouri is still out there, I assume she's still out there. Sam hold John's journal. He had vast connections through that journal. It was in Dean's belonging but Sam can rummage thru Dean's bag. From those contacts he can spread out his web. But no. He Chooses to give in, give up, got a girl, had a dog. I hope Jared really doesn't know anything much yet about his character because what he let out is not sympathetic to Sam's character.
I wish we/I was shown Sam's effort despite how moot it be at least he tried.

I was a bit upset when S6 aired and we were not shown Dean's effort in finding Sam but at least he gave us dialogue. Dean said he had tried to look, bought many books, he had nightmares, he drank a lot, he's basically miserable. Although, we were shown from clips that he lives a happy domestic lives with Lisa and Ben. At least we got confirmation from his dialogue that he DID look.

I really hope that Sam DID look and we are being shown the scene, clips, flashback, whatev... because the spoilers only implied he does nothing.


also i had always thought the one who sucked Sam back into hunting was Azazel or more specifically Jess's death.


Yes, you're right. What I mean from my comment above is that Sam always need a reason to hunt. S1 and 2 was Azazel, vengeance. When Azazel died at AHBL2, there was Dean's deal that drove him to hunt while finding answer, S4 again vengeance, S5 fixing his mess (his and Dean's mess by starting the Apocalypse) S6 Soulless Sam loved hunting and the later half season because Dean insist on resouling him.

S7 because of Dean and he couldn't leave his brother out there alone. This arises a question that would Sam not want to hunt without Dean? Sam never hunt alone (soulless Sam's an exception). Sam never hunt just for a reason helping others. He always need a reason, a drive to make him hunt. Half of it vengeance and half of it Dean.
Sam always wanted out. Always. Jared said he always wanted out for a very long time.

So, it seems now that Dean's gone he took a deep relieve breath ... oh, finally I can live my life. From the interview and spoilers that said Sam let other hunters do the hunting Job imply that Sam never like hunting. He does not want to help people, save people. He would happily let other hunters do that. Please tell me that that is not a disheartened character. I love Sam but why was he being written like that?
LEAH D
# LEAH D 2012-07-20 22:19
Sorry, but I never understand why some people think that Sam is always written as "bad". I know you love the character and see him as often being portrayed unsympathetical ly but I don't see it personally. I have loved both characters from the get go and have never wavered. Even during the demon blood/Ruby fiasco,. I always felt Sam was trying to do the right thing. I might have said "what the hell are you thinking" on occasion but with all their flaws, and they both have em, I've never ceased to be sympathetic to these guys. I don't think Sam would just walk away from Dean's disappearance without a second thought or good reason. Disheartened, absolutely. How many times can he lose his brother and not be completely shell-shocked?? Until I see him being portrayed that way on my screen I will not believe that is the writers intention.
Has the writing for Sam been great? No. Did they do an awful job with his cage/hallucinat ion story(amoung others)? Yes. But I never thought less of the character. My heart has and continues to go out to Sam. And Dean.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-07-21 03:25
For me the problem is that we get Sam's pov late (like i know what you did last summer) or not at all like what he thought of his mother's deal.The former destroyed Sam's image in several fan's and latter was responsible for me not getting a rounded character development for Sam.Some of the times when Sam left Dean or hunting he had a good reason but by the time we got Sam's pov it was too late and many of them had formed views that Sam is a thankless person and that was irreversible (i am not one of them). So,kaj, my view point is that the showrunners can make a character look sympathetic or not depending on how they show the events unfold...In season 6 dean was in suburbia leading a life separate from hunting ..they could have or could not have showed it (the montage at the beginning) they showed it and let me tell you it is one of my favorites as it showed beautifully how his mindset was..how he has changed and not changed..I am not angry for the spoilers revealed but am a little apprehensive but mostly happy
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-07-20 05:39
Quote:
"One of the commenter here said that perhaps deep down inside Sam was a real jerk and he was just pretending to be nice. Because Sam without a soul was a jerk."
ANYONE who didn't have a soul would be a jerk. Good gawd, can you picture how Dean would be without a soul? He'd be even worse than Sam was, IMO. Soulless Sam was just an empty shell with memories and intellect. What made Sam SAM wasn't there. Soulless Sam wasn't really Sam. That was the whole point.

Quote:
"Sam was written differently. ALways wanting to get out of hunting, having anger management issue. Sam was written as a brother who trusted a demon over his own brother. He was written to be the one who is not family oriented kinda guy. He was kinda arrogant."
I think it's a matter of perception, really.
I don't think Sam's desire to quit hunting was portrayed as "bad" - it was just something that, for a long time, Dean didn't understand or agree with. But then it flipped circa S4-S5, and Dean became the weary one. It was a role-reversal, that's all. Sam chose a demon over Dean and Dean, in many more subtle ways, chose an angel over Sam. Likewise, the Sam-drinks-demo n-blood story arc ran simultaneously with the Dean-tortured-s ouls-in-hell story arc. Sam might have set Lucifer free, but Dean broke the first seal. Both were manipulated into doing those things and put through the ringer. Their intentions were good, though. Dean went to hell for Sam. Sam drank the demon blood (initially) for Dean's sake. Both sacrificed a bit of their humanity for those decisions.

Sam has been through a lot, and he has personality flaws. Perhaps he's prone to anger, pride, lust for power, and stubbornness. As the younger brother, it also makes sense that he's easily led. But he's also has a long history of being very intelligent, gentle, compassionate, tolerant, and understanding. His character is well-rounded. He has temptations and weaknesses just like a real person - because that's what makes a good character.

Similarly, Dean has personality flaws out the wazzoo. He's definitely prone to violence - likes it, in fact, alcoholism, lying, judgmental-ism, womanizing, nearsightedness , faithlessness, etc. But his strengths happen to be loyalty, long-suffering, care-taking, and leadership. Again, strengths and weaknesses.

Now between the two of them, looking at it objectively, I'd say it's pretty balanced. Their experiences have not been the same, nor have their desires. But in terms of characterizatio n, they're equally flawed. One's weaknesses are the other's strengths. That's what makes them such successful hunters...well, that and a lot of good luck! :)
kaj
# kaj 2012-07-20 22:00
Quote:


I think it's a matter of perception, really.
I don't think Sam's desire to quit hunting was portrayed as "bad" - it was just something that, for a long time, Dean didn't understand or agree with. But then it flipped circa S4-S5, and Dean became the weary one. It was a role-reversal, that's all. Sam chose a demon over Dean and Dean, in many more subtle ways, chose an angel over Sam. Likewise, the Sam-drinks-demon-blood story arc ran simultaneously with the Dean-tortured-souls-in-hell story arc. Sam might have set Lucifer free, but Dean broke the first seal. Both were manipulated into doing those things and put through the ringer. Their intentions were good, though. Dean went to hell for Sam. Sam drank the demon blood (initially) for Dean's sake. Both sacrificed a bit of their humanity for those decisions.

Sam has been through a lot, and he has personality flaws. Perhaps he's prone to anger, pride, lust for power, and stubbornness. As the younger brother, it also makes sense that he's easily led. But he's also has a long history of being very intelligent, gentle, compassionate, tolerant, and understanding. His character is well-rounded. He has temptations and weaknesses just like a real person - because that's what makes a good character.

Similarly, Dean has personality flaws out the wazzoo. He's definitely prone to violence - likes it, in fact, alcoholism, lying, judgmental-ism, womanizing, nearsightedness, faithlessness, etc. But his strengths happen to be loyalty, long-suffering, care-taking, and leadership. Again, strengths and weaknesses.

Now between the two of them, looking at it objectively, I'd say it's pretty balanced. Their experiences have not been the same, nor have their desires. But in terms of characterization, they're equally flawed. One's weaknesses are the other's strengths. That's what makes them such successful hunters...well, that and a lot of good luck! :)
Thank you Bamboo24. I think I've risen a good question above about the brother's different characterizatio n. And I seem to get a good answer out of you. Like you said Sam leaving always portrayed BAD because we see it from Dean's POV. If Sam was given a POV just to explain himself then things would be different. Fans are outrage (in my part I'm more like baffled) that Sam is written again leaving hunting business that he is letting all those innocents died eaten by monster and he just let other hunters deal with it. Is it wrong of me to think that Sam is an inconsiderate person?

I'm wondering will Sam even think inside his mind that "I know what's out there, what goes bump in the night and I know that many people are dead and I should do something about it because I know. But I CHOOSE to let them go, to let others to deal with it. Because I never want to hunt and I regret of knowing what's out there."

Or "I know what's out there but I turn a blind eye to them. Why me? I just want to live a live and live my dream of normal live for once. Other hunters can deal with it. It does not have to be me."

Those are just my wondering of what happens inside Sam's head. Perhaps he had good reason but we're likely not shown that. I always want to see inside Sam's head because I want to understand him and then love him. It's hard to sympathize with a person who let his brother gone and not looking for him. That's why I get that lots of fans are outraged.

Would the intelligent, gentle, compassionate, tolerant and understanding Sam let his brother gone be gone and not even lift a finger to look for him? He could use his intelligent = doing research. He could use his gentle and compassionate to others by helping people saving people hunting things.

I remember Spiderman, at first when he got his power he uses it for his own gain to get money but then his uncle's death open his eyes that Power comes with a responsibility. He was bestowed with power it's like a sin not to help people with it. He was burdened by the responsibility but even the burdened Hero keeps going because that's what's right. It's hard and not given enough recognition but it's what's right. Am I wrong?

Now, that happened at the beginning of Spiderman career and other superheroes careers. Because they are still looking for identity. Now, Sam is a seasoned hunter. I could understand him in pilot because he's still young, just like the young Spiderman. It's understandable that he would want to have something that he wanted. "Why would it have to be me to save them. Others could do it." But it 8 seasons later. Sam had seen a lot, had learned a lot. He knew how bad the monster was, he knew that when he saw in a newspaper that a man died because his heart was stolen probably because of a werewolf. Would he just shrugged it? IF and I'm talking IF because the shows hasn't aired, yet. IF Sam just shrugged it off I would scream, "Where's your heart, Sam! You knew what's happen out there. Why?"

Now, how about this ...
"I know what happens out there and it burdens me. I don't want to have this life I never did. But I did know. I want to let go and let other hunters deal with them just like those werewolf victims but my heart screamed to me that I can't. I really hated hunting life because it took my brother away from me and all of my family but damn my heart can't let others suffer the same fate as me." This is the Sam that I love. This is the Sam that you said to be gentle, compassionate, tolerant and understanding.

Then Sam contacted other hunters to let them know about the werewolf and helping with information and ammo and shelter. Offering them help even if he felt not want to hunt it by himself. But he does hunt occasionally when the need arise. Just like Bobby.

This is the Sam that i will love and respect. And this is the Sam that I want to be shown in the show. I really want Sam to be given the chance to voice his mind. To understand a character we have to be shown scenes, clips, dialogues, to back up their characterizatio n. We can't just guess.... It'll be great to have Sam POV.

If Sam was shown just getting a girlfriend and getting a dog and living normal life WITHOUT any connection to hunting whatsoever, Even not lifting a finger to try, at least TRY to find Dean, then.... I think it's save for me to say that Sam is not a Hero material.
If we're not shown Sam's effort then it's hard to sympathize with him because we're not shown the prove. The Prove. The PROVE. THE PROVE.

Lot's of fans with vocal voice here are not bashing and moaning without reason. I can understand their fear because the spoiler didn't give much. They are worried that Sam is going to be written OOC; Not compassionate, not care of others, not being a good brother, not even try to look with a weak reasoning. We love this show because despite their flawed characters the brothers are loyal to each others. Willing to die for each other. It's their love that drew us in.

That's why i wish that Jared really doesn't know much. That the writers always tell him that Sam live normal life just like what he wanted because the writers also did not tell him about Sam's effort to look for Dean. i hope it's there but they just don't want to reveal it, yet. I hope it's being written right now. :D

You've written a good description of both brothers but the show very rarely address Sam's inner feeling.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-07-20 05:42
According to you is Sam a hero or not?
kaj
# kaj 2012-07-20 23:08
At this point (right now after reading the spoiler) I'm confuse, honestly.

Sam was a Hero. I want Sam to be a Hero. He should be a Hero. He had potential to be a Hero. Season 1 and 2 and 3 he was written as a Hero. Nagging at Dean to drive him to Lawrence because he saw a family got burned inside their old house. Nagging at Dean to save Max and trying to save the special children.

In pilot we were not shown whether Sam kept hunting or not BUT I always love to pretend to think that Sam did hunt, just near his campus because i want Sam to be hero. I always think that Sam has this notion in his head that he can hunt and have a life at the same time. Maybe like Bobby. Spiderman was not a hero before he got power but he did have good heart and hero material inside him. When he was bestowed with power he struggled just like Sam.

When Sam was sucked into hunting he became a Hero. He's compassionate to victims and heroic all around. I like Sam when he was hunting because he was into it and maybe could even more relate to the victims than Dean.

But Dean got a chance to say 'Saving people, hunting things, family business' He got a chance to have a dilemma of "Why me? why it's me the one who have to save them.' But in the end he did it anyway.
When will Sam get a chance to say that?

I never see Sam was given a chance like that. Initially in S1 and S2 it was vengeance to kill YED. When they went to kill Wendigo Sam questioned 'What are we doing here, man? We should find, dad.' But Dean reminded him that that was what they do. Yes they looked Dad but along the way saving people as much as they can.' Sam was a hero in training, just like the beginning arc of Spiderman. I should note here that Sam implied that he was willing to leave those people being eaten by Wendigo to look for Dad. Then, the scarecrow episode where Sam left Dean to look for Dad but then he came back because it doesn't feel right in his heart. See, he was a hero in training. I very much enjoyed Sam's journey.

There's always something in the plot that make Sam went hunting. I always disregard that as a way for the writers to drive the plot. I always assumed since S2 that Sam finally realized that hunting was what they do. It's their burden as the one with the knowledge as the one who was bestowed with power to help others. When Sam met Adam he insisted that he thought Adam how to fight because he wanted to prepare him. Because he finally realize knowing about the supernatural things means he couldn't ignore it. Because if he ignore it many people would die.

That's the one plot that i like from S4, the others (aka the blood addiction and Ruby) not so much. But I'm not gonna talk about it more :D Sam finally realized it's his responsibility and because of that he couldn't ignore it any longer.

Then came season 7. I love it that Sam made Dean the driving force behind his reason to embrace hell memories. And at the beginning of the season he was the one who nagged Dean to call Cas. I am happy to disregard that when Sam was asked why he was willing to suffer thru hell memories, he said because he couldn't let his brother out there alone. I'm just too busy to squee at that moment. The brotherly bond!

But then spoilers came out and burst my bubbles, so to speak. :(

The interview said that Sam said, "I didn't do anything because I know there are other hunters out there." (I'm sorry if I don't quote correctly but it's just what I get from the interview. pls correct me if i am wrong)

What!!! That's not what a hero would say. Spiderman would not sit around because there's Superman in town, right?

Now if the writers insist to write that kind of Sam and insist that this is the real Sam that they've been writing all this time and not OOC, I couldn't help to think that perhaps after all this time I see Sam differently than what the writers actually want to portray Sam. That's why I said this :

I'm beginning to suspect that that was what the writers' view of Sam. That Sam was created like that and what we've seen for all this time (at least since S4) was the real Sam.
I just wait for the writers to dissuade my worries.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-07-20 23:54
kaj,

I understand what you're saying.

I guess I view the show differently. I don't view Sam and Dean as heroes - I view them as humans first - humans who happen to do heroic things. I think that results in a difference in expectations about the show and these characters.

To me, SPN isn't about two superheroes (like Spiderman or Batman) fighting evil. Rather, it's about two regular, human guys who do heroic things. Now I realize Sam and Dean aren't necessarily 'regular human guys' anymore, but they started out as such and didn't ask for lives they were given. Unlike most superheroes, they didn't just find out they had superpowers one day and decide to go out and fight crime with them. They've always hunted for personal reasons, be it vengeance, or saving each other, or saving the world. While Spiderman and Batman are superhumans fighting crime - Sam and Dean are regular humans fighting supernatural things - evil, real evil. And I've always admired how SPN has depicted the many ways that takes a toll on a person.

There's no way I could watch Supernatural if Sam and Dean were like Spiderman, Superman, or Batman. What makes it watchable for me is how relatable they are - they're not these untouchable superheroes - they're very realistic, human characters.

All that to say - yeah, maybe Sam realizes that he couldn't keep hunting without his brother (it would be dangerous to hunt without backup anyway). And he says to himself, "I've done what I could. I gave everything I ever had and saved the world multiple times. I've been doing this since I was a teenager, and I've lost everyone I ever loved. I'm NOT Superman. I'm tired. I'm broken. I can't do it anymore. I'm done." And its a comfort to him to know that there are other hunters out there who can take up the slack. So he retires. Now, knowing all this HUMAN character has been through and lost, how you blame him?

It's not like he's weak. It's not like Dean hasn't had his own existential crises and doubts. Remember S5's "Point of No Return"? Dean flat out gave up and quit! And Dean walked away from the hunting life in S6. I'm not seeing the difference here. Keep in mind - Sam may give up on hunting for a while, but he DOES get back in the game in S8, and the brothers become united in mission once again.

I just don't see what's so un-heroic about these guys having weaknesses, making mistakes, and occasionally giving up. If they were perfect bad-***es all the time, there'd be no emotional connection with audience.

I do have faith that the writers will dissuade your worries, and hope we will all find things to enjoy about S8. We've still got 2.5 months to wait!
kaj
# kaj 2012-07-21 04:34
I really hope so. Oddly I can relate to Dean because I was shown Dean's POV. I can understand that he's tired and he said that in dialogue that he's tired.

I'd like to see Sam's POV. I'd like to hear Sam saying what you said above. I will not consider what you said as canon, no offense pls Bamboo24, because you're not Sam. :D *wince* sorry, i don't mean to be rude but you're not Sam are you? Just checking.

Even Spiderman and Superman has human's struggle. Like in the latest movies but the audiences were shown their struggle. When spiderman lost his power, we get to see his POV, we struggled with them. He got the dialogue that back him up.

Jared said of his interpretation of Sam before the show was aired. But that's what Jared said. Whether or not this Sam is going to be explored we'll just see. Last year, they sold us a really good stuff and promising good things but puff... a season with lack of brotherly bond. Can you blame me if I'm wary?

It's not like he's weak. It's not like Dean hasn't had his own existential crises and doubts. Remember S5's "Point of No Return"? Dean flat out gave up and quit! And Dean walked away from the hunting life in S6. I'm not seeing the difference here. Keep in mind - Sam may give up on hunting for a while, but he DOES get back in the game in S8, and the brothers become united in mission once again.

We got dialogue that said Dean wanted to quit and I can understand. Why? because we were brought along with him. We were shown his POV of things. So, if this also happened to Sam I'd like to suffer with him please. I'd like to be brought along with his struggle, his dilemma, his wariness. His POV so to speak. The Hero or not Hero is not exactly my problem here. I just use it as imagery to convey my meaning. What I'd like to see is the struggle that Sam should have in next season.

All that to say - yeah, maybe Sam realizes that he couldn't keep hunting without his brother (it would be dangerous to hunt without backup anyway). And he says to himself, "I've done what I could. I gave everything I ever had and saved the world multiple times. I've been doing this since I was a teenager, and I've lost everyone I ever loved. I'm NOT Superman. I'm tired. I'm broken. I can't do it anymore. I'm done." And its a comfort to him to know that there are other hunters out there who can take up the slack. So he retires. Now, knowing all this HUMAN character has been through and lost, how you blame him?

The problem is I somehow equate Sam leaving the hunting business = Leaving Dean and giving up of finding him. And that's something that I couldn't believe Sam would do. It has correlation, see. Oh Sam is finally wary and tired but why choose now to be wary and tired? Wary and tired of finding Dean? Giving up on his brother? Dean was gone due to a supernatural incident, so I believe the supernatural world is the key point to find Dean. If Sam leave the hunting world how could we expect him to be able to find Dean? Not in a vet office, I'm sure.

I will not blame him if Sam will say in S8 that He looked, he conducted research, he tried hard, even trying to summon Crowley, The Alpha Vamp, hell even Death despite the death threat. He says all that and being able to give his own reasoning. Then I can relate to him, I can understand him. You know, I can understand Samuel Colt's reasoning of being tired. If Sam really feels that way I'd like they give him a chance to bring his case up panel (the scenes, dialogue, etc) He's the half of the lead characters, he should be given the chance to say all that with valid reasons. Considering previous seasons, what we do the most was just paraphrasing what's implied from the scenes. Even what you said, and I like what you said about Sam is still not happening, yet.

Will it be enough to be conveyed in flash back? I dunno. Would it be strong enough to define Sam's reasoning? let's see how they write it.

We'll just see the execution in 2,5 months. :D
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-07-21 05:01
Quote:
but you're not Sam are you? Just checking.
:lol: :lol:
I have not read your whole comment and i found this funny
kaj
# kaj 2012-07-21 05:34
Sorry, considering what Bamboo24 said, I just wanna say that I was half worried there that maybe there is a spn writers among us and just blending in, finding out what the fan thought about the spoilers. Well, my imaginations could run rampant. :D

I hope Bamboo24 does not get offended. I halfway thought that she/he is actually one of the writers. hahaha....
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-07-21 13:16
Quote:
I will not consider what you said as canon, no offense pls Bamboo24, because you're not Sam. *wince* sorry, i don't mean to be rude but you're not Sam are you? Just checking.
Well, the things I mentioned ARE canon - Sam's been saving people since he was a teenager; Sam's given everything he's had, his very life, to save the world; Sam's lost everyone he's every loved; Sam's not Superman. So, though Sam's never come right out and said it, it's not like I was making it up. I was merely saying - in light of the facts of canon, is it not unreasonable to assume that he would break or give up in the face of losing his brother (again)?

Btw, I'm not offended - I considered writing back, saying, "actually...I AM Sam." :P The interesting thing is...you'll never know. I could be an SPN writer...or I could be grad student with too much time on her hands. Oh, the mystery!

Quote:
We got dialogue that said Dean wanted to quit and I can understand. Why? because we were brought along with him. We were shown his POV of things. So, if this also happened to Sam I'd like to suffer with him please. I'd like to be brought along with his struggle, his dilemma, his wariness. His POV so to speak. The Hero or not Hero is not exactly my problem here. I just use it as imagery to convey my meaning. What I'd like to see is the struggle that Sam should have in next season.
You're right. Sam hasn't been given the dialogue to express that he's just as weary as Dean has been. Though I would argue that it's implied and assumed - there's more to understanding a character's motivations, feelings, and desires than just dialogue.
The good thing is, we WILL get those flashbacks all season, and we WILL be taken on that journey with Sam.

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The problem is I somehow equate Sam leaving the hunting business = Leaving Dean and giving up of finding him. And that's something that I couldn't believe Sam would do. It has correlation, see. ...I will not blame him if Sam will say in S8 that He looked, he conducted research, he tried hard, even trying to summon Crowley, The Alpha Vamp, hell even Death despite the death threat. He says all that and being able to give his own reasoning. Then I can relate to him, I can understand him.
Oh, I definitely see the correlation, I just don't read the spoilers the way you seem too, and have a lot more faith in the writers, mainly because we have a new showrunner (I was dissatisfied with S7, too. Believe me). :) We don't know yet what Sam did, but there was never a suggestion in the spoilers that he didn't look, only that he stopped looking at some point and moved on.

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Will it be enough to be conveyed in flash back? I dunno. Would it be strong enough to define Sam's reasoning? let's see how they write it.
I agree - let's see how they write it and hope for the best! :)
LEAH D
# LEAH D 2012-07-21 13:01
Great comment! Humans who do heroic things are my definition of heroes, however. You don't have to be a superhero to be a hero. Just check out the current news!

These guys have spent years risking their lives for others, whatever the motivation. That they have doubts and flaws, and still soldier on, makes me love them more. Sam is disheartened and shell-shocked. Losing his brother AGAIN. I know some fans will always find reasons to dislike a character but these men have proven themselves heroes time and again.
Leesa
# Leesa 2012-07-21 00:06
Confused? I recommend maybe you check out shows like Buffy Angel, Star Trek, Star Wars, pretty much every genre oror movie show ever made. The hero has a crisis of faith, removes themselves from the life they were destined for. Then something pivotal reminds them of who they are and they return to the heroes journey. It's quite common in story telling and SPN has gone there in almost every season. Our heroes are at their breaking points-then recover.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-07-21 00:10
Leesa,

Funny you should mention Star Wars - I read that Sam and Dean were originally fashioned after the characters of Luke Skywalker and Han Solo. :)
Sage
# Sage 2012-07-20 09:19
Well, that's a harsh interpretation of Sam,but I guess some people could read him like that.

I think Dean was a hero since season 1, but fromseason 1 to 5, the story is Sam's hero journey, we see him growing to be one.

We learn to know why Sam left. I don't think we can think anymore it was as simple as 'I don't want to be with my family', right? And there was more to Ruby than 'trusting a demon'.
Season 6 Sam was soulless so I don't take it as real Sam, but you have a good point: he enjoyed hunting.

If he didn't care about people, the only reason for him to hunt is that he liked it. Then Sam saying he doesn't like hunting can't be 100% true and I wonder if they'll remember that when writing season8 Sam. It bothers me that they want to go back to that Sam that, imo, we've seen is not true, the Sam that hates hunting.

I'm fine with Sam not hunting, btw. I understand if he has no strenght or motivation left.

We know Sam is back hunting, and that Dean is very enthusiastic about it. I don't know, looks to much like S-1, but with some extra info we know now that makes it a bit weird.
Hades
# Hades 2012-07-20 12:12
see I dont think thats what they're trying to do at all. From what I've read its seems like they're trying to give Sam a real reason to hunt again, something to fight for, some hope. Its all very well him hunting because its what he does and because he doesnt want to leave his brother alone in that life but thee has to be more in it for him otherwise he's just going through the motions. Sam will return to hunting with maybe a renewed sense of purpose ans hope, he's been through too much he needs something/a reason to actually LIVE life not just exsist.

The hunting shine wore off for Dean as the season went on, he was more obvious about his feelings, Sam was more introvert. How would we know how he feels about hunting? Personally I think he sometimes enjoys it, when its not dragging him down, killing of everyone he loves, when he can see that there is hope and reason.

Sam may have hunted with revenge at the front of his mind in season 1 but that doesnt change the fact that he saved people selflessly, he he cared, he fought. He was a hero from the moment we met him and from cannon we know from a lot earlier in life.
kaj
# kaj 2012-07-20 23:38
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see I dont think thats what they're trying to do at all. From what I've read its seems like they're trying to give Sam a real reason to hunt again, something to fight for, some hope. Its all very well him hunting because its what he does and because he doesnt want to leave his brother alone in that life but thee has to be more in it for him otherwise he's just going through the motions. Sam will return to hunting with maybe a renewed sense of purpose ans hope, he's been through too much he needs something/a reason to actually LIVE life not just exsist.

The hunting shine wore off for Dean as the season went on, he was more obvious about his feelings, Sam was more introvert. How would we know how he feels about hunting? Personally I think he sometimes enjoys it, when its not dragging him down, killing of everyone he loves, when he can see that there is hope and reason.

Sam may have hunted with revenge at the front of his mind in season 1 but that doesnt change the fact that he saved people selflessly, he he cared, he fought. He was a hero from the moment we met him and from cannon we know from a lot earlier in life.
OOOhhhh Hades I really really wish that what you said is true because the spoilers seemed to imply the other way. I would support you if you want to apply as one of the Spn writers.

Yes, I love Sam when he was hunting because it's clear that he was soo into it. But it's also fact that Sam almost never hunt alone. Now, it's the time. The time for Sam to shine to hunt despite being alone. To hunt to help people, saving people hunting things because he knows monsters are out there. That this is what Dean would do but more importantly this is what he wanted to do. From the goodness of his heart, from the calling of his heart that he keeps hunting despite no one else beside him.

He finally was shown having no other reason to hunt other than that he wants to. No Dean's deal, no vengeance, no angles and demons manipulations. 'I hunt because i want to and with the hope that along the way i would find a way/clue to Dean's whereabouts.' Because IMHO Sam wouldn't find a clue to Dean's where about if he's not involved in supernatural world. Writing a Sam who washes his hands from the supernatural world altogether would show a Sam that does not care about Dean.

I really hope you're right and I won't see that Sam on TV.

PS: Although half of my heart (Ok the better part of my heart) wish that To Find Dean is the reason for Sam to hunt again. :D a fangirl can hope :D
caelius
# caelius 2012-07-20 10:17
I think the view of what is involved in being a hero on Spn and how it relates to hunting is a lot more complicated than that, as is the variation in Sam and Dean's viewpoints about hunting at different times in canon. It's not a simple matter of hunting = helping people = hero = good thing.

All the Spn characters have negotiated dark sides to being a hero in various ways: the possibility that doing something for the sake of a loved one will do damage (Mary makes a deal to save John and it harms her family, Dean makes a deal to save Sam and it damages Sam, Dean, and the world, Sam is ready to take the risk that the Trickster is really Bobby in MS to save Dean, Dean tortures again and violates Lisa and Ben by altering their memories in an effort to protect them, etc., the things Samuel was willing to do to get Mary back). The possibility that a goal like stopping the apocalypse will lead people to use terrible means to their ends (Sam draining the nurse in s4, Cas breaking Sam's wall in s6). The possibility that the kind of vigilante justice hunters practice is dehumanizing (Dean's feeling that robo!Sam is his mirror, that he is a killer not a hunter, the way Bobby can go from the one who intervened to remind Sam and Dean that Meg was occupying the body of an innocent girl to shooting Ruby 1 in the chest just to test the Colt; the general disregard that Sam, Dean, and Bobby have all shown for the fact that the demons they deal with are also possessed people). The dangers of a black and white viewpoint that monsters are evil and must die, period (something that was in play for Dean especially in s2 and s7). The fact that both Sam and Dean have felt that hunting isn't something they choose but simply something they are trapped in (Dean's speech to Jo about how he got into this so young he can do nothing else, Sam's words to Colt that no one gets out, Dean's hope that Krissy and her father could find a way out of the darkness and destructive family patterns that go with hunting, even if he couldn't).

Sam has stood for several of the dark aspects of hunting: the revenge drive that motivates so many hunters in s1 and s4, the ruthlessness that will sacrifice to an end in s4, or the ruthlessness that reduces everything to efficiency that was robo!Sam, the hunter part of Sam stripped of empathy or ethical goals. He's also at times been a voice for the value of hunting (preventing the YED from doing to Rosie's family what he'd done to his and Dean's, trying to shore up Dean's belief that it's worth it after WIaWNSB and in Mannequin, urging that they needed to take time from the pursuit of Dick to help Krissy). And he's been the site for some of the confusions in value that surround hunting (one of his reasons for developing his powers in s4 was that it let him save the hosts when destroying demons, yet that road led him to kill the nurse; his identifications with monsters have helped him to question the black and white hunting code, to see hope in reaching out to God!Cas when Dean assumed that there was nothing left to reach, yet his desire to believe that a demon could conceivably be on the right side contributed to his trusting Ruby). And Dean has his own light and dark sides in relationship to "heroism."

Spn at it's core has been said to be about Sam and Dean's humanity. The problem of how to keep hunting a service to humanity rather than something that saps humanity (by hardening the people who hunt, by denying the potential humanity of some monsters, or by cutting hunters off from the human community that they are in theory protecting) is a major component of that theme. Bobby's "you're a hunter, not a person" to Dean isn't a satisfactory solution to the dilemma that Dean faced after the crisis of his attempt at a life with Lisa and the traumas of s6. It sounds from some of Edlund's remarks that Sam's attempts to hold onto other aspects of life, maybe ultimately find a way to incorporate them into hunting rather than having to reject one for the other, is another exploration of the problem of how to be a hero and human.

"We keep each other human," is still the line that sums up the show and Sam and Dean best for me.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-07-20 13:34
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"Spn at it's core has been said to be about Sam and Dean's humanity. The problem of how to keep hunting a service to humanity rather than something that saps humanity (by hardening the people who hunt, by denying the potential humanity of some monsters, or by cutting hunters off from the human community that they are in theory protecting) is a major component of that theme. Bobby's "you're a hunter, not a person" to Dean isn't a satisfactory solution to the dilemma that Dean faced after the crisis of his attempt at a life with Lisa and the traumas of s6. It sounds from some of Edlund's remarks that Sam's attempts to hold onto other aspects of life, maybe ultimately find a way to incorporate them into hunting rather than having to reject one for the other, is another exploration of the problem of how to be a hero and human.

"We keep each other human," is still the line that sums up the show and Sam and Dean best for me."
YES.
emmau
# emmau 2012-07-20 11:00
I don’t think that the writers are demonstrating that they think the “real” Sam is equivalent to robo!Sam, or that any of his bad behaviors from seasons past somehow represent him as a whole. I think they do take in those parts of Sam as part of who he is, and they are, just as the darker aspects of Dean’s personality are part of who he is.

Sam’s reasons for hunting are varied throughout the seasons, and I think that has the potential to be a very interesting bit of character exploration for Sam this season. He’s hunted out of revenge, desperation, loss, remorse, in need of redemption, as a distraction, etc. He’s also hunted because he thought it was the right thing to do at times, too. He’s hunted because he didn’t want to leave Dean alone, or at least he’s come back for those reasons.

Despite Dean’s misgivings about hunting and occasional impulses to quit, he never has been able to walk away, excluding the gap between S5 and S6 when he did at Sam’s request. His belief that hunting is his calling and/or duty has rarely wavered. Sam has never seemed as attracted to hunting in and of itself, and has shown himself much more likely than Dean to take independent steps to get out of hunting. So I don’t think Sam leaving hunting is in and of itself character assassination. It’s consistent with the reluctant hero characterizatio n he’s always been given, in my opinion. Since I don’t for a minute believe that Sam just assumed Dean was gone and never looked (Jared’s “finally” is an important adverb in that statement to me), I think that’s another issue all together.

I think if you only look at either character’s bad side, then you’re going to get a negative character assessment. I think that Sam has character traits as well as some amazing ones—just like Dean. It all depends on what you’re looking for.
emmau
# emmau 2012-07-20 11:17
Or, what bamboo24, sage, and caelius said.

Also, I think Sam has some bad character traits as well as some amazing ones. Sigh.
caelius
# caelius 2012-07-20 11:30
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I don’t think that the writers are demonstrating that they think the “real” Sam is equivalent to robo!Sam.
Yes, especially since one of the things I find most interesting about robo!Sam was that he lacked some of Sam's weaknesses as well as his good qualities. I can't imagine robo!Sam getting hooked on power/demon blood as Sam did in s4, or attacking Dean the way Sam did in 4.21. He didn't have Sam's anger or insecurities or family issues or trigger responses or messed up guilt and grief any more than he had Sam's empathy or capacity for altruism and sacrifice or ability to see shades of grey or love for his brother. When robo!Sam harmed people it was either about efficiency (letting Dean get turned, shooting the hostage) or out of self-preservati on (attacking Bobby).
emmau
# emmau 2012-07-20 11:40
Soullessness was never that well-defined in S6, in my view--was I supposed to think that the hard-edge Sam was Sam without constraints, or was it more indicative of anyone without a soul? I always thought it was the latter, and so robo!Sam never felt like real Sam to me. I could very easily see robo!Sam drinking demon blood if he thought it would give him an advantage in hunting, but he wouldn't have done it to save possessed hosts, nor would he have felt bad about it. He would have attacked Dean if he'd seen him as a threat, but I don't think we would have seen the fight unfold the way we did in 4.21.

You make a great point in saying that robo!Sam didn't have Sam's weaknesses as well as being devoid of his strengths. I never thought about that before. He wouldn't have been triggered by his fears of being a monster in 4.21. He didn't have Sam's guilt or insecurities or family issues (though I think the anger and frustration still remained sometimes). Robo!Sam's actions were guided pretty much by animal instinct--does it feel good? Will this get me what I want the quickest? Will this save my life? I think that's another reason why robo!Sam never felt like real Sam to me--he lacked so many of the three-dimension ality that Sam possesses.
caelius
# caelius 2012-07-20 12:04
Oh, yes, I can imagine robo!Sam drinking demon blood if he thought it would be useful, but he wouldn't need the feeling of power and control for the reasons that Sam did, he wouldn't be compensating for a sense of powerlessness or lack of agency. And I think he'd be very careful about any addictive substance, and especially about one that would involve him being dependent on another being; the whole Ruby aspect of Sam's demon blood experience wouldn't have been in play for robo!Sam.

I don't think they were all that consistent with the soullessness and I end up picking and choosing among some inconsistent possibilities when I think about robo!Sam, but I do think he was specifically connected to Sam, maybe just because he thought he was Sam, he had Sam's memories, Sam's context. So even if there is a genericness to soullessness, when robo!Sam was figuring out who he was and what to do, he did it in the matrix of Sam's life. That would explain why he kept hunting, even though hunting is dangerous and he had a strong instinct for self-preservati on, and why he still had a fixation on Dean even when he didn't care about him. And his sense of identity changed somewhat, from being genuinely a bit puzzled about why his responses were different from what people seemed to expect and what he remembered of Sam before he knew about soullessness, to a stronger sense of himself as a separate being after he learned what had happened and started thinking in terms of competition with that other Sam in the Cage.

Which makes it fascinating to wonder what robo!Dean would be like. I can imagine that if Dean came back soulless but with the context of his life and his memories he might still have some aspects of protective Dean, only without love or caring. I think that animalistic aspect might have more of a pack aspect in soulless!Dean, where soulless!Sam was more of a loner animal, a cat or something.
emmau
# emmau 2012-07-20 14:41
Right, you've said what I meant to say, but better. Robo!Sam would certainly go for demon blood because it was a power source without any of the emotional entanglement that led Sam to do the same. I do think control is a big part of Sam--he's felt powerless more often than not in his life, and he's always wanted to have power over himself and over his surroundings. You can't blame him for that, given his early life with John, the demonic machinations in his life, etc. Robo!Sam would be free of all that. i can see where he would think he wouldn't get addicted, because I could very well see him as one of those "I can handle it-addiction is for those too weak to fight it" people, but I'm not sure he couldn't have ended up addicted as well. I think he could have as easily ended up under Ruby's guidance as he did Samuel's. I think it's just emotions at play that would have been different if Robo!Sam had been in S4--I think the results probably would have been the same.

See, I thought that S6 was very inconsistent in terms of soulessness, especially regarding the emotionlessness of robo!Sam. He very clearly felt anger, frustration, satisfaction, even fear by 6.11 when he thought he'd be resouled. In 6.1, Sam said things felt right when Dean was there, but by 6.7 he told us he didn't care about Dean at all. By 6.9 he was the comic relief of the episode, but in 6.5 he was clearly supposed to be villainized by his actions against Dean. I think the traces of Sam left, so to speak, only really answered for so much, at least for me. They changed soulless Sam to fit the episode, so to me it felt inconsistent. Then again, I am extremely unfond of the roboSam era, so I accept that colors my perceptions.

Souless Dean is an interesting question. Would the protective instincts remain, or is that connected to soul? I could see a more pack aspect to Dean, but even then it might flip on a dime and disappear, like robo!Sam's family "connections" seemed to. I didn't see robo!Sam as much of a loner, honestly--he was either hooked up with Samuel or hooked up with Dean. When he had the chance to act alone, he usually wandered back to Dean or Samuel, leaving them to take point more often than not. I see real Sam as much more independent and loner-cat than robo!Sam. I could see robo!Dean much the same as robo!Sam in that aspect.

But funny, I've always thought of Sam more as a cat and Dean as a dog in terms of their animal characteristics . So we definitely agree there!
Sage
# Sage 2012-07-20 23:59
No, you're eight, they couldn't keep RoboSam consistent at all. I still ejoyed it more than the rest of the season, and found it an interesting concept to explore if they had spent some time thinking what it meant to be soulless before writing episode.
Sage
# Sage 2012-07-20 23:53
You know, while Season 6 had some big issues (imo), Robo!Sam was a very interesting thing to explore, I wouldn't had mind to see more of him. While the Lisa arc, and Eve didn't appeal to me, Soulless!Sam was a part I enjoyed a lot ( well, I was mad as hell before we learnt he was soulless...)

And sometimes he was just hilarious.
Leesa
# Leesa 2012-07-16 01:44
If you're thinking reboot of any season it should be S-1. The bros are estranged & reunite over a common quest.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-07-16 09:28
With Sam being the guy who doesn't care about saving people or finding Dean. Not the reboot I can stand.
Leesa
# Leesa 2012-07-16 09:41
I don't really think it's a season 1 reboot but there are parallels it seems. I was just countering that it's definitely not a 4 reboot.

Sam was out of the hunting life in the pilot...he was fully engaged in the hunting life by the end of the pilot. It does seem that 8 is going to start in a similar place. Personally I loved the pilot. I like the idea that we're going to get slow reveals about what happened when they were separated.
kaj
# kaj 2012-07-21 00:00
I agree with you percysowner. Sam and Dean had been thru a lot. After all they done and seen.

Pilot was ok because Sam was young. I considered him still green in the hunting live because mostly he just did research while Dan and Dean hunting but after 7 seasons, Sam's heart would be and should be heavy by the loss of Dean and he wouldn't have the heart to leave all of those people to fend for themselves when he could do something to help.

If there's a nail on the road and you know it and you know that that nail will jeopardize any drivers that pass by would you just shrug and walked away? No, right? The Sam that we know ans love would want to get rid of that nail. Because if he walked away and a motor driver died because of the nail when Sam knew he could prevent it, his heart would feel guilty.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-07-21 03:48
I am excited as to how they will go about showing why Sam quit hunting and what makes him come back..I hope the show does not repeat a season 4 style of unfolding of events..That is my only concern ..Amelia is a welcome character for me and i am maybe the only one who is sad to know that Sam and Amelia have broke up already when the show starts airing..Again excited to see what are the reason's for their breakup..
Nita
# Nita 2012-07-16 02:07
If Sam is not going to be instrumental in saving Dean there must be a reason. Possibly the writers could not think of a rational way to make Sam save Dean. If they did think up of some reason or the other, perhaps it would have spoilt the story, made it all a little weird or unbelievable. I don't know, just giving the writers the benefit of the doubt.
Also the writers and creators of the show are looking at it long-term. They probably feel that the character who saves Dean is an important part of the season 8 plot.
One thing is for sure. Even if Sam does not save Dean, I will not blame Sam for it. If he wants to give normal life a shot, he is only human, and does not mean that he does not care about Dean. He is moving on, and I am okay with that. No way am I going to stop seeing SPN.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-07-16 09:01
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One thing is for sure. Even if Sam does not save Dean, I will not blame Sam for it. If he wants to give normal life a shot, he is only human, and does not mean that he does not care about Dean. He is moving on, and I am okay with that. No way am I going to stop seeing SPN.
Exactly my thoughts
Bevie
# Bevie 2012-07-16 16:03
I thoroughly second your thoughts.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-07-16 03:24
So ‘something’ (well, that’s it confirmed that it’s not Sam) gets Dean out of Purgatory while Sam just goes and lives his life, and he’s ‘happy’ that he gets to do so? Jeez, we’ve seen Dean move heaven and hell when Sam is in danger yet when Dean is in danger Sam..... moves on? Why on earth does the show constantly persist in setting it up that Sam’s devotion to Dean be in doubt?

I’m guessing this ‘something’ that gets Dean out will be what was referred to in an earlier interview about them revisiting an issue of the past and ‘doing it right’. Wow, look at that, another opportunity to show how Dean will get it right when Sam got it so wrong. Well, colour me surprised.

I thought for one brief moment that the video had been manipulated or maybe Alice had been hypnotized when typing up the notes because I am stunned at this but alas, no. Other reports (if they are true) confirm it (other tiny details in other reports actually make me feel a hell of a lot worse than I do now). It’s amazing how quickly ten words or so can deflate all the excitement I had for season 8. Perhaps it’s just the shock at what I feared for season 8 being confirmed in writing but I don’t think I’ve ever been so disappointed about reveals before. I’m now thankful that the show is on Wednesday evenings (Thursday mornings for me) because I now have a genuine excuse to not watch it until a few days later.
Nita
# Nita 2012-07-16 03:31
Tim, I too wanted Sam to get Dean out, but looking at it from the positive side, why assume that it means that Sam does not care enough? After all Dean also did not try to get Sam out of the cage and I never thought that Dean did not love Sam enough. I think it's just the circumstances. Sam knows he can't do a thing, so he takes his life back. In fact if there was anything anyone could have done, it was Dean when Sam was in the cage. At least Dean knew Sam was in the cage, but Sam has no idea what has happened. And there is no one to back him! He has no one, and he cannot trust other hunters. I think Sam is as heroic as Dean and loves him as much as Dean loves him.
Michelle Kinseth
# Michelle Kinseth 2012-07-16 03:44
Well said, Nita! I agree completely :)
Sage
# Sage 2012-07-16 04:03
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After all Dean also did not try to get Sam out of the cage and I never thought that Dean did not love Sam enough.

The problem is that he did try, Dean said so himself. He couldn't but he did try.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-07-16 04:28
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Tim, I too wanted Sam to get Dean out, but looking at it from the positive side, why assume that it means that Sam does not care enough?
I’ve no problem assuming that Sam cares a hell of a lot about Dean but this is the problem, it’s all assumption. It’s getting harder and harder to see proof on screen that Sam does care enough. It’s getting harder and harder to definitively argue it because many, many times when Dean is shown to be in true danger, Sam is portrayed to be indifferent. Dean was in hell, it’s implied that Sam didn’t care because he had hooked up with Ruby. Dean is in the faery realm, it’s shown Sam didn’t care because he hooked up with the hippy chick (I know he was soulless but what was shown on screen is a pattern of indifference on Sam’s part) Now, Dean is God knows where, maybe alive, maybe dead, maybe being tortured in hell and Sam is shown to just move on. Contrast that with Dean. When Sam was dead, Dean sold his goddamn soul for him. He was willing to be tortured for an eternity for his brother. There is absolutely no doubt about his intentions and his regard for his brother because we saw definitive, and visceral, proof of it onscreen. We don’t get that with Sam. I know Sam cares, I know Sam cares a hell of a lot. I just wish we could actually see this on screen every once in a while, instead of always having to rely on assumptions or having to read between the lines.

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After all Dean also did not try to get Sam out of the cage and I never thought that Dean did not love Sam enough.
Dean did try to get Sam out of the Cage. Like he said in 6.01 ‘I looked everywhere, I collected hundreds of books trying to find anything to bust you out. Of course I didn’t leave it alone.’ We saw him hit the bottle big time in grief over Sam. We saw him stay in a situation where he felt alien out of respect for Sam. Going by the spoilers given, Sam will react to Dean being gone by finding a girlfriend and moving on. It’s very easy to interpret that as Sam not loving Dean enough.

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I think it's just the circumstances. Sam knows he can't do a thing, so he takes his life back. In fact if there was anything anyone could have done, it was Dean when Sam was in the cage. At least Dean knew Sam was in the cage, but Sam has no idea what has happened.
This is my biggest fear, that when Sam ‘knows’ he can’t do a thing he just takes his life back, the life he lost so long ago when Dean came to find him at Stanford. He can escape and leave hunting with no Dean around to ‘anchor’ him. (What happens when Dean comes back? Will Sam only go back to hunting because Dean wants him to?) If this supposition does pan out to be true, it could change everything we thought we 'knew' about Sam since season one; every motivation, every action is in doubt. Did he go with Ruby because he was so devastated over Dean or did he go with Ruby because, when Dean was around, he'd never have been able to do it. It's like Professor Snape. We believe something about a character for so long yet when one tiny new snippet of information comes to light it changes everything we have previously thought about the character.

Add to that, Sam and Dean have faced worse than the impossible before. They’ve had umpteen situations where they’ve had zero leads, zero intel, zero to work with but they’ve always worked to find something. They have never given up. Sam has never given up. He took down Lucifer, he’s killed Lilith, he’s helped save the world on more than one occasion. He’s faced umpteen situations where he has ‘known’ he can’t do a thing yet each and every time he’s managed to do something. I never saw Sam Winchester who would just give up because it was hard, and most definitely not when it came to his brother. Guess I read him wrong all these years.

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And there is no one to back him!
Sam doesn’t need anyone to back him. He doesn’t need someone to hold his hand and spoonfeed him information and tell him what way to turn. (At least the Sam of the past didn’t. Perhaps this new incarnation of Sam does.) He’s a highly capable hunting veteran who has managed to down Lucifer and saved the world on more than one occasion. He’s been in the hunting life for almost his entire life, he has seen more and done more than pretty much every hunter on the planet; he shouldn’t need someone to back him.

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I think Sam is as heroic as Dean.
The very definition of a hero is someone who doesn't give up. Sam never, ever, ever gave up. Even in season 7, when Lucifer was haunting his every move, he never gave up. The salt and burn he did while in hospital in The Born Again Identity shows that. That's why he was considered a hero. If these reveals turn out to be true and Sam just gives up when things get tough, can it still be argued that he's a hero then? And this isn't a game of sudoku Sam is giving up on, it's his brother. How can Sam still be considered heroic if he just leaves his brother hanging when things get tough?
Nita
# Nita 2012-07-16 04:34
Tim, it is difficult to argue with you! :-) So I guess it's just that I see things differently.
And anyway Dean read up stuff and decided he couldn't save Sam, okay. But Sam doesn't even know where Dean is. So what can he do? That is how I see it.
Also, I think a hero knows when to back off, when to stop. Sam is not a fool, he doesn't want to waste his life on something he believes cannot happen. Never giving up is not always wise.
So I guess we can agree to disagree.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-07-16 07:00
And I’m genuinely glad that you do (see things different). The last thing I want is for anyone to be as miserable as I am right now. I want people to like the show and get enjoyment out of it. I've spent the past 2 years trying to look at things in a way that are positive to enable my enjoyment of it and my appreciation for the character but I have to be honest, if even a fraction of what I’m fearing here pans out to be true then it’s a step too far for me.

The show has been dismantled bit by bit to such an extent that it’s almost a parody of what it was. There are precious few things left on it that are sacrosanct any more but I truly believed that the brothers loyalty to each other, that their willingness to do whatever it took for each other, was one of them and now seemingly, even that is being taken.

I’ve no problem with Sam being written as shady or his actions going unexplained in order to further an overall storyline (i.e. season 4) but is it necessary for it to be Sam every damn season? This action, if it is shown to be true, will serve to do nothing but cast doubt on any and all of Sam’s future actions and motivations. If we see Sam being angry at Dean is it because Dean has done something wrong or because Sam is resentful that Dean’s return took him away from what he wanted? How can Sam be trusted to have Dean’s back if he turned his back on him and ran first chance he got? How can we believe that he is happier with Dean when it shows that Sam, quickly and easily, moves on with his life in Dean’s absence? Will Sam just hunt because he feels obligated to do so and if so, how soon before the old resentments start building up again? And I fear that once again, this action will make Sam nothing more than a plot device to serve Deans angst and frustration and it will undoubtedly be thrown in his face as often as Stanford and Ruby was.

Ironically, in seasons past, this type of writing has made me appreciate the character of Sam much more because it is a challenge to understand why he does what he does. It’s not a ‘What you see is what you get’ sort a thing with him because he is so much more than the mere actions that he is shown to take. However, the show has methodically, at one time or another, stripped Sam of everything that made him who he is; his smarts, his sense of humour, his self-belief, his earnestness, his determination, his loyalty, his motivation, his honour etc so if they take this one final thing from him, what will be the point of Sam anymore? He will, as Macbeth said, signify nothing. He won’t be a Winchester because he’s never sacrificed himself to save family, he won’t be a hunter because he doesn’t see the value in hunting and he won’t be a good brother because he gave up on Dean so easily. What exactly will there be left of the character of Sam after this? It will be harder and harder to justify Sam’s actions when we see less and less of the aspects of the character that we thought we knew.

Honestly, I never thought I’d be as depressed as I was last night (my nephew lost a hurling final and if the sight of eighteen inconsolable 12 year old boys doesn’t depress you I don’t know what does) but I thought wrong. I’m absolutely gutted about this because while I’m sure the storyline will be served, I can’t face it once again being at Sam’s expense. He’s been the scapegoat for years of mistrust and all that is wrong between Sam and Dean for far too long; let the show put that burden on someone else’s shoulders for once.

I do realise that JP, JA and BE might be playing us for fools because they are well versed enough in doing press to know how to give completely ambiguous statements for the purpose of causing debate. I know it’s possible that none of what I fear will come to pass but I’m not going to hope that this is the case anymore. Hope of change got me through the last few seasons but experience is a bitch of a teacher. Nothing about any part of the interviews gives me any hope for season 8 (Is the only reason Dean forgave Sam because he’s family, not because he understood what he was doing and why? JA says it’s hard for Dean to relate to a ‘monster’, Castiel, yet he trusted that monster, and his word, how many times over his ‘companion’ Sam?) and I swear to God, every time I reread it (in the vain hopes that the words have changed), it get worse.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-07-16 09:10
Quote:
but is it necessary for it to be Sam every damn season?
This is something which i too have wondered
kaj
# kaj 2012-07-21 04:56
Oh, Tim. I know that we had disagreement at some point in the past but I hope it's all in the past and we can move on. :D But finally I read your comment and am glad that we voice the same issue here.

Quote:
I’ve no problem assuming that Sam cares a hell of a lot about Dean but this is the problem, it’s all assumption. It’s getting harder and harder to see proof on screen that Sam does care enough. It’s getting harder and harder to definitively argue it because many, many times when Dean is shown to be in true danger, Sam is portrayed to be indifferent. Dean was in hell, it’s implied that Sam didn’t care because he had hooked up with Ruby. Dean is in the faery realm, it’s shown Sam didn’t care because he hooked up with the hippy chick (I know he was soulless but what was shown on screen is a pattern of indifference on Sam’s part) Now, Dean is God knows where, maybe alive, maybe dead, maybe being tortured in hell and Sam is shown to just move on. Contrast that with Dean. When Sam was dead, Dean sold his goddamn soul for him. He was willing to be tortured for an eternity for his brother. There is absolutely no doubt about his intentions and his regard for his brother because we saw definitive, and visceral, proof of it onscreen. We don’t get that with Sam. I know Sam cares, I know Sam cares a hell of a lot. I just wish we could actually see this on screen every once in a while, instead of always having to rely on assumptions or having to read between the lines.
I agree, it's hard to back up Sam if we only have to read between the lines. No hard prove like in dialogue, scenes, etc.

Quote:
Quote:
I think Sam is as heroic as Dean.
The very definition of a hero is someone who doesn't give up. Sam never, ever, ever gave up. Even in season 7, when Lucifer was haunting his every move, he never gave up. The salt and burn he did while in hospital in The Born Again Identity shows that. That's why he was considered a hero. If these reveals turn out to be true and Sam just gives up when things get tough, can it still be argued that he's a hero then? And this isn't a game of sudoku Sam is giving up on, it's his brother. How can Sam still be considered heroic if he just leaves his brother hanging when things get tough?
I laughed at your sudoku comment. But don't get me wrong. I agree with you in this matter.
lala2
# lala2 2012-07-16 11:12
Dean did try to get Sam out of the Cage. He says so in EOMS, and there's no reason to not take him at his word.

They have Sam just giving up on Dean, and that's not cool. It makes Sam look like an unfeeling bastard. I have no idea why the writers would do this to him!

As Tim said, I know Sam cares so why they wouldn't portray that is beyond me. Tim's post hit on all the key points. Sam doesn't need anything but his brain and a laptop! But apparently he just doesn't care enough to try!

I love Sam but I don't know what else I'm supposed to think when he doesn't even bother searching for Dean. It's bad writing. I guess Sam is just destined to always be the "wrong, bad" brother!
KS
# KS 2012-07-16 03:56
Quote:
“I think the easy answer is Blood. I think the easy answer is family.” “I think the short answer is it is his brother. There might be grudges held between them but at the end of the day, that’s the closest that he has to a companion and he has had for many years.”
He also thinks that Castiel being an angel makes it harder for Dean to relate, just like it’s hard for Dean to relate to a monster. “His brother is flesh and blood, it’s tangible.”
I guess, this is the best thing I heard from Jensen after a disappointing interview from Jared. Still they gotta give a better explanation why Sam left Dean all alone to rot wherever he is.
deangirl1
# deangirl1 2012-07-16 04:08
I can't begin to say how excited I am for this season! Great stuff coming - and Jeremy Carver writes BOTH brothers so well. I AM shocked by the comments here. Of course they needed another way to get Dean out of Purgatory - did any of these people watch season 6? Where it took a whole lot of mojo and the entire season to open purgatory and it was a disaster???? Makes perfect sense for them to have Dean have to get out from the inside - Like Professor V did via Lovecraft... I'd also like to remind people that Dean's storyline has been crap for the last 2 seasons - we've had bits teased and never come to fruition - unlike Sam's broken wall which was the focus of almost all last season and had several episodes devoted to it. AND did you listen to this interview - Jensen clearly says this it the FIRST look at Sam's time - that there would be more "like peeling an onion" - he only said it wasn't going to advance the main arc - NOT that it wasn't an integral part of the backstory to that arc. I think a lot of people just want to hate the season. ALSO anyone remember that Jared just had a baby? Maybe he requested a slightly less busy season? Wait and see people - give Carver a chance - where oh where is our "wonderful" "supportive" fanbase????
Sage
# Sage 2012-07-16 04:39
Quote:
where oh where is our "wonderful" "supportive" fanbase????
After S7, my faith runs thing.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...
cd28
# cd28 2012-07-16 07:12
Quote:
I AM shocked by the comments here. Of course they needed another way to get Dean out of Purgatory - did any of these people watch season 6? Where it took a whole lot of mojo and the entire season to open purgatory and it was a disaster???? Makes perfect sense for them to have Dean have to get out from the inside - Like Professor V did via Lovecraft...
Professor V didn't find her own way out, she happened to escape when the portal was opened from the other side. It's not realistic that things can escape from within Purgatory or else the Leviathans and every other monster would be letting themselves loose all of the time.


Quote:
I'd also like to remind people that Dean's storyline has been crap for the last 2 seasons - we've had bits teased and never come to fruition - unlike Sam's broken wall which was the focus of almost all last season and had several episodes devoted to it.
I'm not disputing that Dean's story has been disappointing (more season 7 than season 6 - I thought he had a good year in season 6), but Sam's story has been "crap" too. He came back in season 6 a sociopath. There was a lot of mystery around what what was wrong with Sam and what he wanted with Dean (why he was suddenly back in his life when he didn't seem to care about him). We went a half a season without seeing the real Sam, instead we got a monster than Dean and Bobby considered killing. The mystery of what was wrong with Sam was revealed, but what was never addressed was WHY he was soulless. This was unheard of (that a body could be walking around without a soul) - so much so that it shocked Veritas and intrigued the Alpha Vamp. There were hints that Sam did horrendous things. And then Dean rescued Sam - got his soul back - and Sam's story was promptly dropped and left unfinished. We never learned why Sam returned soulless. We never learned what horrible things Sam did while soulless (using people as bait isn't bad enough for what was implied). We never learned why Sam changed his mind about wanting to hunt with Dean (are we supposed to believe that he ever really wanted his soul back?). Other than one episode in Unforgiven and a brief moment in the finale, we never saw Sam emotionally deal with or reflect on his soulless period. And Sam was basically nothing more than wallpaper for the second half of the season.

The mental breakdown was a lot of hype with little pay off. In the end, Sam suffered from nothing worse than sleep deprivation, and was promptly healed with no follow up. So yeah, "having bits teased and never come to fruition" perfectly fits Sam's storyline as well.
lala2
# lala2 2012-07-16 14:01
Quote:
I'm not disputing that Dean's story has been disappointing (more season 7 than season 6 - I thought he had a good year in season 6), but Sam's story has been "crap" too. He came back in season 6 a sociopath. There was a lot of mystery around what what was wrong with Sam and what he wanted with Dean (why he was suddenly back in his life when he didn't seem to care about him). We went a half a season without seeing the real Sam, instead we got a monster than Dean and Bobby considered killing. The mystery of what was wrong with Sam was revealed, but what was never addressed was WHY he was soulless. This was unheard of (that a body could be walking around without a soul) - so much so that it shocked Veritas and intrigued the Alpha Vamp. There were hints that Sam did horrendous things. And then Dean rescued Sam - got his soul back - and Sam's story was promptly dropped and left unfinished. We never learned why Sam returned soulless. We never learned what horrible things Sam did while soulless (using people as bait isn't bad enough for what was implied). We never learned why Sam changed his mind about wanting to hunt with Dean (are we supposed to believe that he ever really wanted his soul back?). Other than one episode in Unforgiven and a brief moment in the finale, we never saw Sam emotionally deal with or reflect on his soulless period. And Sam was basically nothing more than wallpaper for the second half of the season.

The mental breakdown was a lot of hype with little pay off. In the end, Sam suffered from nothing worse than sleep deprivation, and was promptly healed with no follow up. So yeah, "having bits teased and never come to fruition" perfectly fits Sam's storyline as well.
Yeah. That says it all!

Great post!
kaj
# kaj 2012-07-21 00:10
Quote:
Quote:
I AM shocked by the comments here. Of course they needed another way to get Dean out of Purgatory - did any of these people watch season 6? Where it took a whole lot of mojo and the entire season to open purgatory and it was a disaster???? Makes perfect sense for them to have Dean have to get out from the inside - Like Professor V did via Lovecraft...
Professor V didn't find her own way out, she happened to escape when the portal was opened from the other side. It's not realistic that things can escape from within Purgatory or else the Leviathans and every other monster would be letting themselves loose all of the time.


Quote:
I'd also like to remind people that Dean's storyline has been crap for the last 2 seasons - we've had bits teased and never come to fruition - unlike Sam's broken wall which was the focus of almost all last season and had several episodes devoted to it.
I'm not disputing that Dean's story has been disappointing (more season 7 than season 6 - I thought he had a good year in season 6), but Sam's story has been "crap" too. He came back in season 6 a sociopath. There was a lot of mystery around what what was wrong with Sam and what he wanted with Dean (why he was suddenly back in his life when he didn't seem to care about him). We went a half a season without seeing the real Sam, instead we got a monster than Dean and Bobby considered killing. The mystery of what was wrong with Sam was revealed, but what was never addressed was WHY he was soulless. This was unheard of (that a body could be walking around without a soul) - so much so that it shocked Veritas and intrigued the Alpha Vamp. There were hints that Sam did horrendous things. And then Dean rescued Sam - got his soul back - and Sam's story was promptly dropped and left unfinished. We never learned why Sam returned soulless. We never learned what horrible things Sam did while soulless (using people as bait isn't bad enough for what was implied). We never learned why Sam changed his mind about wanting to hunt with Dean (are we supposed to believe that he ever really wanted his soul back?). Other than one episode in Unforgiven and a brief moment in the finale, we never saw Sam emotionally deal with or reflect on his soulless period. And Sam was basically nothing more than wallpaper for the second half of the season.

The mental breakdown was a lot of hype with little pay off. In the end, Sam suffered from nothing worse than sleep deprivation, and was promptly healed with no follow up. So yeah, "having bits teased and never come to fruition" perfectly fits Sam's storyline as well.
You're right. Thank you!
Bevie
# Bevie 2012-07-16 16:12
Hey deangirl1 - I'm one of the wonderful supportive fanbase and here I am. Really excited for this season!

Poor Jeremy, getting stomped on before the season even starts! Anyway, every single fan can't have happen what they want as nothing will please everybody at one time. Always going to be complaining and mean remarks.

I just skip over them now, and it makes life much nicer. I'll let Jeremy and the cast and crew and creators keep making the magic that keeps me obsessed with the brothers, and Chuck bless them for that!
slak
# slak 2012-07-16 05:36
wow, i think some fans only read what they want to read into things, and overthink it all! I'm not gonna lie, I watch the show for Dean's character, always have, but I think I have enough of an open mind to see that his story-line has been totally crap for ages. Sam got to have cool powers and Dean got to be a big girls blouse and went from being on his way to bad-ass hunter to housewife in suburbia in season 6. I had to watch through my eyelashes through season 6's first half. Now I am totally excited hoping like hell he gets to finally be all truly bad-ass. Sam needed a break, I'm glad he got it. They'll shoot his chiselled chest from 15 angles in the love scenes with that chick and hopefully when he gets back to hunting with Dean again it'll be awesome :)
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-07-16 09:00
I 100 % agree.

Dean finally gets a storyline, finally a genre-related mystery and, if I'm understanding it right, he will get the old hunter spark back and be allowed to be a badass.

So I'm sorry that is such an inconvience for everyone who hoped the character would get nothing but repetitive pointless emo again for another year, be bashed and mocked and boohoo-ed for it all over the place and be shown as the general negative figure to everything Sam can do wonderfully better than him.

I think it's high time to show the character in a positive and/or strong light for a change. And I'd be very happy if that finally happens.

And yes even I am a bit flabbergasted at the Sam end of the story but the writers, going by Edlund's comments, already go out of their way to paint it as sympathetic, healthy and positive as possible. If it were Dean, I don't see that happening in a million years.

Personally, I don't find Sam hateful for it. Granted, what is being described isn't his most glorious hour but it is not something that I find unforgiveable in a character.
cd28
# cd28 2012-07-16 09:13
I haven't read one comment begrudging Dean's storyline. Wanting something different for Sam is not the same as wanting Dean to have nothing.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-07-16 09:41
I guess it's the vibe that it's simply no biggie if Dean gets written badly and/or have no story whatsoever. The show can apparently still be great then, depending on what Sam gets.

But the skies fall if it's the other way around. If Dean gets something interesting for once, it still means crap.

Like I said, I get it, the Sam-spoiler side of things is rather baffling but not only do I believe that had they done that with Dean, they wouldn't have tried to play it in a sympathetic light in any way whatsoever. But also that they apparently have every intention to cushion the blow for Sam's character.

I fear Dean will even end up apologizing for his "slight resentment", realizing how wrong he was to feel that way.

Personally, I want this initial tension over and done with soon. I'm all for a more healthy, mature relationship. Last thing I need is more cheap drama.

So let Sam explain his reasons, let Dean, I don't know, move on from it, WITHOUT apologizing for his own feelings. And let them simply hunt together.
Slak
# Slak 2012-07-16 09:54
Quote:
I guess it's the vibe that it's simply no biggie if Dean

Personally, I want this initial tension over and done with soon. I'm all for a more healthy, mature relationship. Last thing I need is more cheap drama.

So let Sam explain his reasons, let Dean, I don't know, move on from it, WITHOUT apologizing for his own feelings. And let them simply hunt together.
Definitely! No more sulking and brooding and agonising from dean. If Sam was happy lets hope dean gives him that and moves on. I miss the cocky, assured dean of old that had no permanent scowl. I want him badass but with a smirk! I can hope I guess!
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-07-16 10:05
I want Dean to have that spark back. But I don't want his feelings invalidated either. He doesn't have to roll out the red carpet in celebration of Sam walking away and he shouldn't have to.

I can totally understand him not being all "well, my year was crap but thank god Sam, the important one, had a good time".

The show just shouldn't make it into big drama. We all know they'll keep hunting together so basically ignore it is the best option I can say.
Shelby
# Shelby 2012-07-17 12:12
Quote:
I want Dean to have that spark back. But I don't want his feelings invalidated either.
Yes. This.
Leesa
# Leesa 2012-07-16 09:27
Quote:
I 100 % agree.

Dean finally gets a storyline, finally a genre-related mystery and, if I'm understanding it right, he will get the old hunter spark back and be allowed to be a badass.

So I'm sorry that is such an inconvience for everyone who hoped the character would get nothing but repetitive pointless emo again for another year, be bashed and mocked and boohoo-ed for it all over the place and be shown as the general negative figure to everything Sam can do wonderfully better than him.

I think it's high time to show the character in a positive and/or strong light for a change. And I'd be very happy if that finally happens.

And yes even I am a bit flabbergasted at the Sam end of the story but the writers, going by Edlund's comments, already go out of their way to paint it as sympathetic, healthy and positive as possible. If it were Dean, I don't see that happening in a million years.

Personally, I don't find Sam hateful for it. Granted, what is being described isn't his most glorious hour but it is not something that I find unforgiveable in a character.

Huh?
lala2
# lala2 2012-07-16 09:55
Who in the world is complaining about Dean's part of the story? My complaints have to do with Sam's part of the storyline. He's getting shafted as usual!
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-07-16 10:14
Well, this, being the Jensen interview, should be the article to talk about Dean's part of the spoilers. But even though the character appears to have something interesting to do for the first time since early Season 5, that apparently means nothing if the Sam angle doesn't fit.

When Dean got that same civilian life set-up with boring non-spoilers and a non-story in Season 6, it was more or less brushed aside with "oh well, he'll probably get something later and even if not, who cares".

As for getting shafted, we'll have to agree to disagree because I believe the Dean-character has been getting shafted for years now and this might be the first time where he isn't since maybe Season 2.

The Sam-part of the spoilers? Stuff like Fallen Idols and especially the handling of 5.22 made me angry and livid with the character. This is, like I mentioned, nothing I truly find him damn-worthy for. Not his shiniest hour but what I heard so far is genuinely not something that turns me off a character forever in itself.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-07-16 10:25
Quote:
Well, this, being the Jensen interview, should be the article to talk about Dean's part of the spoilers.
Why..he is directing an episode so ..again why?
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-07-16 10:31
He doesn't only talk about directing, he also talks about Dean spoilers, this being the first time in years he has some to talk about.

Just as I'd imagine talk about Sam spoilers to go on more in the Jared interview as well as general spoilers in writer interviews etc.

So I guess people shouldn't talk about Dean spoilers anywhere then? Is his character not important enough to discuss HIS end of the spoilers or what?
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-07-16 11:07
Yes.Again your point being?You don't have to talk only about Dean here.Quote:
So I guess people shouldn't talk about Dean spoilers anywhere then?
They can talk about Dean spoilers anywhere until the discussion is specifically about Sam .Even then there will be shared spoilers ..so Dean spoilers can be dicussed in Jared's article because Jared and Sam are not same..
Quote:
Is his character not important enough to discuss HIS end of the spoilers or what?
Yes his character is important..no one denied that
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-07-16 11:24
My point being that it is only natural that an article of Jensen being interviewed about his character in Season 8 along with directing would span more of a discussion of Dean just as an article about Jared re: Sam's direction in Season 8 would span more of a discussion on Sam. I don't see how any of that would be surprising.

So yeah, if I expected a discussion more slanted towards Dean, it would be this interview vs. Jared's interview.

And yeah, I for one am ECSTATIC about having juicy Dean spoilers. Last year the Comic Con articles that came out read "Sam's wall, Castiel's god complex and other stuff".
Not exactly inspiring for a Dean-fan.

Just as I think Jensen looks way more animated and engaged in this years' interviews.

Not that I even know all of that will translate to something good onscreen but it's better than the last few years.
lala2
# lala2 2012-07-16 14:07
Fallen Idols was crap. You won't get an argument from me.

We all have our own breaking points. For you, it was FI and SS. For me, it's this. I watch for the brothers. Their bond is why I love this show, and they are effectively trashing the bond and the brotherhood. Some won't care, but I do. I don't like it. I'm a bi-bro fan. This is horrible for Sam.

The bond is all one-sided if these spoilers are accurate. It's all coming from Dean. That's not cool. I mean, what's the problem w/showing Sam caring as much about Dean as Dean does about Sam? Why is that a problem?
misty
# misty 2012-07-16 13:31
I just don't see where it's Sam that has usually gotten the shaft lala2, except for last season, where both of them were relegated to supporting characters and yes, they did indeed drop the ball on Sam's hallucinations, as well as Dean's depression and alcohol problems.

(Edited by Alice. Unfounded Sam vs. Dean)

So yes, it does seem to me that, to some fans not all, that if Sam's not the total front and center , those fans will complain that he's getting shafted. And to be completely fair, I know there are also some fans who feel the same way about Dean. How about the writer finally giving BOTH characters equally good story arcs? Novel idea huh?
And yes, we are all in agreement I think on at least one aspect; It should have been SAM that rescued Dean! And also alas, it looks like we won't be getting our epic reunion hug!
lala2
# lala2 2012-07-16 14:38
Misty - let me try to explain.

For me, the show ends and begins w/the brotherhood. That is heart of the show. For the writers to have Sam not even trying to find a way to help Dean is very troubling. I feel like they are spitting on the brotherhood, the heart of the show.

I honestly don't know how or why I'm supposed to care about what Sam went through in his year when it had nothing to do w/Dean. He wasn't looking for Dean or searching for answers. He wasn't even slightly obsessed w/finding his brother. Sam was off w/his GF living his life. For a show based on two brothers going to the ends of the earth for each other, that makes no sense. They've stomped on the heart of the show.

I feel like this would be the second time Sam is cast in a very negative, unflattering light. And I'm not saying Sam should always make the right decisions or never do anything shady, but I hate that he is yet again being shown to be the selfish, uncaring brother. He was mean to Dean in Season 4. He was soulless in Season 6 (and I loved Soulless Sam and Season 6), and now we have him writing off Dean for NO reason. Sam wasn't left w/a dead body. There's no reason for Sam to NOT look for Dean. Why the writers have him washing his hands of Dean is beyond me? I couldn't care less that he gives up hunting. My problem is w/him giving up on Dean. I just don't believe the character would do that so I worry about how JC sees him.

Sam is always the bad, wrong brother! It would have been nice to see something different this year.

Oh, and I enjoy the emotional parts of the show more than the mytharc so, until last season, I've been fine w/Dean's role on the show. He gets more exploration and is a fully developed character in my mind. Sam is more like a walking plot point that changes w/the plot.
paintgirl770
# paintgirl770 2012-07-16 16:26
"I honestly don't know how or why I'm supposed to care about what Sam went through in his year when it had nothing to do w/Dean. He wasn't looking for Dean or searching for answers. He wasn't even slightly obsessed w/finding his brother. Sam was off w/his GF living his life."

Wow, lucky you, you've already seen the new season! The rest of us have to do with brief and probably misleading spoilers. At least you don't have to tune in come October.
lala2
# lala2 2012-07-16 16:48
There's no need to be rude. We're in a spoiler thread giving our opinions on the spoilers!

Unless Sam spending his time living his life w/his GF has something to do w/Dean, then I'm not interested just like I wasn't interested in Dean's life w/Lisa and Ben.

I don't watch Supernatural for romance. Maybe you do. I don't.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-07-16 16:58
She doesn't need to have seen the new season in order to discuss what the spoilers reveal. JP said, and Jeremy Carver confirmed, that Sam did not look for Dean. That's what was being discussed so unless you think JP and JC lied then that's what we have to go on at the moment, however 'brief' and 'probably misleading' you think it is.
lala2
# lala2 2012-07-16 17:14
Exactly! I'm not making this crap up (esp. since I hate it) out of thin air. Both JP and BE are saying Sam does not look for Dean, and that Sam lives a "normal" life and is happy.

Until I read something else, it sounds like Sam writes off Dean, which will never make any sense to me.

Thanks, Tim :-)
kaj
# kaj 2012-07-21 00:17
Quote:
Misty - let me try to explain.

For me, the show ends and begins w/the brotherhood. That is heart of the show. For the writers to have Sam not even trying to find a way to help Dean is very troubling. I feel like they are spitting on the brotherhood, the heart of the show.

I honestly don't know how or why I'm supposed to care about what Sam went through in his year when it had nothing to do w/Dean. He wasn't looking for Dean or searching for answers. He wasn't even slightly obsessed w/finding his brother. Sam was off w/his GF living his life. For a show based on two brothers going to the ends of the earth for each other, that makes no sense. They've stomped on the heart of the show.

I feel like this would be the second time Sam is cast in a very negative, unflattering light. And I'm not saying Sam should always make the right decisions or never do anything shady, but I hate that he is yet again being shown to be the selfish, uncaring brother. He was mean to Dean in Season 4. He was soulless in Season 6 (and I loved Soulless Sam and Season 6), and now we have him writing off Dean for NO reason. Sam wasn't left w/a dead body. There's no reason for Sam to NOT look for Dean. Why the writers have him washing his hands of Dean is beyond me? I couldn't care less that he gives up hunting. My problem is w/him giving up on Dean. I just don't believe the character would do that so I worry about how JC sees him.

Sam is always the bad, wrong brother! It would have been nice to see something different this year.

Oh, and I enjoy the emotional parts of the show more than the mytharc so, until last season, I've been fine w/Dean's role on the show. He gets more exploration and is a fully developed character in my mind. Sam is more like a walking plot point that changes w/the plot.
Yes!!! I am very much disappointed with the spoilers. Why did I watch the spoilers at all? :( I want the brothers to have good and solid bond.
Sage
# Sage 2012-07-16 12:06
I think it's safe to believe writers could write both characters well, it's not like they have to choose between them, or that they have to write 56 chatracters. SPN is 2 characters basically.

Screwing half the show is screwing a lot.
Boydo
# Boydo 2012-07-16 06:18
I'm going to keep watching because ILove the show but I'm going to stop reading fan comments as they are so negative. I love critique especially Alice and sweeton dean but trashing what are after all just ideas because they don't match someone's preferred story that's just upsetting to me.
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2012-07-16 07:07
To say that Sam does not care enough for his brother to get Dean back out of Purgatory, is a terrible way for the writers to go!

Perhaps veiwers and writers have forgotten the way Sam was in Mystery Spot when Dean was dead for six whole months. He even used to set a place at table for him when he was eating. He did nothing else but hunt the Trickster down.
He begged the Tickster to give him back his brother and even when he went with Ruby it was out of sheer desperation at being alone without Dean.
Did he not go to the Crossroads demon and offer himself instantly in exchange for Dean.

Sam loves and cares for his brother, and if now they want to make out that Sam, who MUST suspect that his brother is in Purgatory, just walks away from Dean; well it's not on!

They can say and make Sam do whatever they want but Sam has said on more than one occasion that there is NOTHING he wouldn't do for Dean and I prefer to believe that rather than he is willing to go off and forget completely about his brother and live a new life, not even trying to find Dean. No way!
If this is the new Carver is bringing then I'll hang on to the old!
Slak
# Slak 2012-07-16 09:41
Quote:
If now they want to make out that Sam, who MUST suspect that his brother is in Purgatory, just walks away from Dean; well it's not on!
Why must he suspect this? We only know cos we were shown, or did I miss something?
Also, Dean told their grandfather straight that they had to stop bringing people back. Sam would have buckleys chance finding dean and if he thought he was dead he would be doing what dean would want this time in letting him go. He could either waste the rest of his life searching with absolutely no idea and no-one to ask, or he could actually go for something better than an eternity alone. That woman/love interest probably decides him on this too. I don't see Sam as weak for going down this path. Why would he be?
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2012-07-16 10:46
The Leviathans came from Purgatory. It's been about that all season, so it would at least be the first thing that I would think of, and I'm not as bright as Sam is supposed to be.
The whole series is about the two inseparable Winchester brothers who have sacrificed everything for each other including stints in Hell and deals of various natures.

I believe we saw Sam upset at the end of Season Seven for the disappearance of his brother, so either the character has been brainwashed in the time between end season seven and season eight, otherwise he would be on the track of his brother.

Sam is of course free to forget all about Dean and the hunting world and concentrate on normal, but it wouldn't be the Sam I've come to know and love for his ethics, morals and love and care for his brother Dean.
Slak
# Slak 2012-07-16 11:15
I guess i was thinking crowley could have sent him pretty much anywhere. Maybe they will justify it... And do it properly. Lets hope that he DID put some effort in and didn't just drop the cause cos he found another hot chick. I don't like the whole 'dean needs you/his family more than u need him' vein of thought, so I DO want Sam to give a damn about his brother.
Bevie
# Bevie 2012-07-16 16:27
Hi Slak - finally, a voice of reason.

Nowhere did it say that Sam wouldn't be trying to find Dean. Why presume the opposite? Carver wrote Mystery Spot. He knows what Sam would do to try and find his brother.

Have a little optimism guys!
kaj
# kaj 2012-07-21 00:20
Quote:
Hi Slak - finally, a voice of reason.

Nowhere did it say that Sam wouldn't be trying to find Dean. Why presume the opposite? Carver wrote Mystery Spot. He knows what Sam would do to try and find his brother.

Have a little optimism guys!
I'd like to borrow your optimism Bevie. Because mine is diminishing by the hour.
Sage
# Sage 2012-07-17 10:05
Sam was supossed to be intelligent. Very.
The Leviathans come from Purgatory. Crowley had business in Purgatory. Purgatory has been big for 2 seasons.

First thingI would try would be Purgatory. It's not rocket science, and I'd like to give Sam a bit of credit.

Quote:
He could either waste the rest of his life searching with absolutely no idea and no-one to ask, or he could actually go for something better than an eternity alone. That woman/love interest probably decides him on this too. I don't see Sam as weak for going down this path. Why would he be?
It's terribly selfish, because he has no idea where his brother is. Dean could be being eaten alive (more or less what actually happens) for an eternity and Sam is walking the dog. Pssh. Awesome.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-07-16 09:20
Quote:
Why did Dean have such a hard time forgiving Cas when he forgived Sam for such a similar betrayal.
As if he forgave Sam easily.
Nia
# Nia 2012-07-16 09:34
He forgave him in a matter of episodes. It's Dean's trust that Sam had trouble earning back.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-07-16 09:42
And how many episode of Dean and Cas did we get a lot less than a matter of episodes...Also i did not see Dean forgiving Sam in a matter of episodes ...
Nia
# Nia 2012-07-16 10:22
Uhh, Sam and Dean had reconciled by the fourth episode of season 5, "The End". That is pretty quick. Besides, while Cas and and Dean have started on the road to reconsiliation, I definately don't think Dean has completely forgiven Cas as of yet. Except for "Survival of the Fittest", Dean was shown to still be pretty pissed at Cas, treating him waaaayyyyy harsher than he ever treated Sam.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-07-16 10:54
Reconciliation started in the End..You have to trust someone (atleast for me it is so) to forgive someone..Well i see fallen idols as Dean still holding on to what happened between them at the end of season four...Oh and Sam was actively trying to do some damage control (for their relation) along with Damage control for the breaking world ..Cas took on Sam's hell but as far as other problem goes he refused to fight again to help them set right what he was partly responsible unleashing well yes Dean has the right and was in the right in being waaaaaaaaaaaaaa yyyyyyyyy more pissed than he was at Sam...Along with that Sam and Dean are brothers so one more a and y should be added to waaaaaaaaaaaaaa yyyyyyyyy
Nia
# Nia 2012-07-16 11:18
Right.

Quote:
Reconciliation started in the End..You have to trust someone (atleast for me it is so) to forgive someone.
See, I think that that's where we disagree. For you, you have to trust in order to forgive. For me, trust and forgiveness are two completetly different things that aren't co-dependant.
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2012-07-16 11:55
Quote:
Reconciliation started in the End..You have to trust someone (atleast for me it is so) to forgive someone..Well i see fallen idols as Dean still holding on to what happened between them at the end of season four
And then Dean apologized to Sam for doing it in that very episode! Dean did forgive Sam very shortly into the fifth season just as Nia said.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-07-16 13:14
Yes he apologized to Sam because he was wrong at that moment and how he has been treating Sam ..That does not mean he was forgiving Sam..I don't understand what your italics mean ...
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2012-07-17 13:55
Dean DID forgive Sam and the apology encompassed Dean's feelings, including forgiveness.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-07-17 14:43
Which episode did he forgive Sam?
No his apology did not encompass his forgiveness for me as he apologized for the way he has treated Sam..so they are not connected for me.
Nia
# Nia 2012-07-17 15:13
Okay then, anoymousN. Let me ask you this: At what point, according to you, did Dean forgive Sam? Which episode?
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-07-18 04:16
I thought he started understanding Sam by the end of Fallen idols and by the end of Point of no return i became sure he understands Sam.Dark side of Moon showed me he still has not forgiven Sam as the memories in Heaven are too trivial to toss the amulet and again it cast doubt that he understands Sam...By point of no return i could say he has forgiven Sam by him valuing Sam's trust in him and by Swan Song and because of Swan song i was sure he has forgiven Sam again by trusting Sam..
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2012-07-18 15:27
Quote:
No his apology did not encompass his forgiveness for me
Dean's apology in Fallen Idols did also encompass forgiveness for Sam's actions of the previous season, for ME.
Aggie
# Aggie 2012-07-16 12:22
Quote:
Uhh, Sam and Dean had reconciled by the fourth episode of season 5, "The End". That is pretty quick. Besides, while Cas and and Dean have started on the road to reconciliation, I definately don't think Dean has completely forgiven Cas as of yet. Except for "Survival of the Fittest", Dean was shown to still be pretty pissed at Cas, treating him waaaayyyyy harsher than he ever treated Sam.
He did, didn't he? I think he hoped for so much from Cas. Cas did that 'I see your soul directly' thing and trusted him at a time when Dean was in horror of his own actions in hell. It must have felt like a life-line.

Native stubbornness probably would have carried Dean on despite self-horror, together with help from Bobby and Sam. But Cas seemed to open up a vein of hope or of fresh opportunity in him. So the recoil into disappointment and anger was profound. In my view, Dean felt personally diminished because it was possible for Castiel to betray him. Like a bit of good self had to die. Such is the nature of hope in someone. If Cas stood however shadowily between Dean and self-blame before, it's no wonder the anger against him is lacerating.

The very words Dean throws at Cas: 'no one cares that you're broken; clean up your mess' are like Dean's internalised John Winchester voice at the father's graveside in the djinn/alternati ve life/mow-the-la wn episode (whatever that one is called -- sorry I can never remember their names).

It's a strange relationship, in some ways very equal, like a true friendship, but what Jensen said about the difficulty for Dean to relate to something supernatural is revealing. Interesting too that Misha says something like Cas will revert to a more Law abiding, obedient disposition in this season, and more like someone belonging to the angel species.
Nia
# Nia 2012-07-16 13:11
The episode name you're looking for is "What Is and What Should Never Be". And might I add that you have a beautiful way with words. I share you sentiments 100%.
Bevie
# Bevie 2012-07-16 16:33
Aggie - I feel you should be writing articles for the site. Your post is so insightful regarding Dean and Cas.

Wonderful little read! :-)
Shelby
# Shelby 2012-07-16 21:11
This really is beautiful and very insightful, IMO too.
Aggie
# Aggie 2012-07-17 13:47
Ah, you made me shy but also very happy! It's likewise, guys. I've enjoyed reading all your comments on the interview threads, and there are some lovely positive voices out there.

The relationship between Cas and Dean is so interesting to me -- though it's easier to imagine from a Dean point of view than through Castiel's eyes, especially at the very beginning when Cas turns up as our first sight of Angel. He's so different. Before Cas entered the scene, understanding the supernatural was mostly a matter of 'how do I kill that?' And there it is, all that stuff on the walls of the cowshed as he walks in -- something's got to work!! -- and piled up on tables within Bobby and Dean's reach. But instead they meet this gentleness and restraint of great power. And it's so personal the way Cas talks to Dean. I love how suddenly understanding the supernatural means imagining in real and familiar terms the possibility of good. It's an amazing moment. Probably one of the iconic moments of the show.

I wish that angels hadn't turned out to be like other monsters, killable and corruptible. If the reset we're getting in Season 8 in some way took us back to the essentials of what angels are, it would be terrific.

I hope I get this posting right, cos want to say thanks and hi to Nia, Bevie and Shelby. :-)
Nia
# Nia 2012-07-17 15:03
You're welcome. You deserve all the praise you get....and hi!!!! :lol:
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-07-16 09:49
It very much feels that with the move to Wednesdays the show’s aim is to pick up new viewers, therefore, in order to draw viewers into an initial character conflict; there is a need for a traditional protagonist v antagonist role for the main characters. It reads as if, once again, Dean is being slotted into the hero, protagonist role while Sam is given the antagonist villain role. Sam is the one who is being shown to not care, the unappreciative wretch who turns his back on his brother every chance he gets while Dean is the sympathetic hero brother who bravely fights monsters on his own and who sacrificed himself for his errant brother on more than one occasion. This is a rehash of season one, 2012 style.

I saw a viewer ask on another board ‘How could anyone like Sam?’ and it’s now a fair question. Based on these spoilers, I’m struggling to come up with an answer. It feels as if the show is intent on making Sam unlikeable and unrelatable and so completely out of character that he’s unrecognisable. The show constantly changes who he is in order to serve whatever story they want to tell. Sam has stated more than once that he didn’t fit into ‘normal’ and that he didn’t want that life anymore and now it seems as if that’s all he’s ever wanted. He’s fought tooth and nail for his brother in the past and how he has just given up on him because he doesn’t know where he is. (You know, Sam, you have done tracking spells before.) He has a font of knowledge inside that head of his but he’s not going to use it. He has an idea as to what’s coming with knowledge of the knowledge he has of Crowley, Kevin, the Word of God, Purgatory, the Leviathans etc and he does nothing. He has his own personal brain Wikipedia in terms of the supernatural and he’s just going to say ‘Nah, I’m done’! That’s akin to a scientist looking for a cure for cancer for decades and when he retires he decides to not share what he has learnt. Absolutely unfathomable for a character I thought I knew.

I’ve spent a lot of time this past week or so travelling so thoughts often turned to season 8 and I have to say that I did not see this one coming. Of all the scenarios I came up with (and there were quite a few), I’ve been completely blindsided by this one, and not in a good way because Sam giving up on his brother is the one scenario I never could have envisaged. More fool me, I guess.
Leesa
# Leesa 2012-07-16 10:10
Sam a villain??? I don't understand where you're coming from. Have you viewed him this way since season 1?
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-07-16 11:23
No Leesa, that is not how I see, or have ever seen, Sam. However, going by these spoilers Sam seems to be once again set on the road to being the antagonist (does that word work better??), the one who is there to cause conflict for the hero, who is there to serve as a foil for the protagonist and when the antagonist and his actions are judged through the eyes of the protagonist, he generally comes off looking villainous. You can’t call Macduff a villain either, but if you look at him with Macbeth’s eyes, then he is. Sam wasn’t a villain throughout season 4 (and 5 and 6 and 7) but when you look at how much conflict he created for and within the antagonist then it’s easy to consider him such.

We will look at both Sam and Dean and when we judge them in terms of the qualities that SPN has shown to be heroic; loyalty, determination, bravery and tenacity then Sam, and his actions, will be seen as villainous because via these spoilers, Sam eschews all these qualities in order to do what he wants to do to better his own life; to be free of hunting and evidently his brother.

Dean has spent his entire life doing what he needs to do, not necessarily what he wants to do, in order to better others lives. He has sacrificed his life and his happiness time and again for his family so there is no doubt in our minds that Dean is a hero. Yet in a show about hunting, would the hero decide to not hunt? In a show about family, would the hero turn his back on family?
Slak
# Slak 2012-07-16 11:37
Totally valid points. Although, dean decided not to hunt, and he remained a hero. A hero can only take so much, Sam would be forgiven I think for getting to the end of his rope after all he has gone through. It would make him human. And he will return to hunting, and with a renewed perspective now that he's lived in a normal world for a while and can see what is at stake.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-07-16 12:03
Yet, even while he was at Lisa's, Dean still did a buttload of research in terms of how to get Sam out of the Cage. In 6.01 we saw that he was still following up on his 'hunches', he was still walking around with a weapon handy and I think (think) we caught a glimpse under his bed where there were protective wards shown. Dean might not have hunted but he was far from out of hunting.

The thing is Slak, I've no problem with Sam getting out of hunting. God knows, at this stage I want him out of hunting. I like that Sam might be coming to a stage where he feels the worth in himself to be able to be around other people but the circumstances surrounding this are absolutely abysmal. Dean is missing, maybe dead, maybe being tortured, and Sam thinks that is the opportune time to start afresh! Genuinely, if your child just disappeared one day would you just throw your hands up and say 'Well, he/she is gone. Nothing I can do about it now so it’s time to move on’? This is, from my reading, what the spoilers are saying Sam will be doing. There’s nothing wrong with Sam trying and failing but having him not try at all??
Slak
# Slak 2012-07-16 12:22
Ok so dean was still researching and the weapons and wards would be ingrained in him, he still knows what's out there even if he doesn't seek them out. We don't know yet that Sam won't take the same precautions. And we don't know yet if he puts any effort at all into finding dean. The fact that dean is going to be pissed at him makes it look bad I admit, but i don't think we know the details yet. I don't think he just drove the impala over to the nearest spa and chilled out with a big sigh of relief and a hot stone massage.. There has to be more to the path he takes they just maybe didnt devulge or didnt know. Jensen wouldnt have all the details if hes read three scripts and they are shooting it memento style. Maybe we wont see sams catalyst to the light side until much later. They just threw this out there like a bone and look what we do :)
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-07-16 13:11
This is the thing, there has to be more. There always is more when it comes to Sam but how much of it will we actually get to see? The show doesn’t exactly have a good tradition when it comes to showing Sam’s motivations on screen and given that they have been loathe to give his point of view in the past, I’ve no reason to believe that that will change any time soon.

Like I said, from what we know at the moment, Sam’s behaviour is so out of character for him that nothing short of a full frontal lobotomy would explain it and while that might be said in jest, given the lack of interest the show has shown towards the character of Sam, I wouldn’t be one bit surprised if this is the direction they did decide to go in.
lipglosskaz
# lipglosskaz 2012-07-18 04:28
I did read in one recent (written) Jared interview that he said "He FINALLY stopped looking for Dean" Apparently the flashbacks of Sam & Dean apart are to continue for a lot of the season..so the writers may show that Sam did look but eventually gave up without leads or help.
I honestly don't think Jared would be happy with a storyline (without a damn good reason) that would have Sam give up on Dean straight away..
lala2
# lala2 2012-07-16 14:44
Exactly! I couldn't care less that Sam stopped hunting. I'm more concerned w/his LACK OF CONCERN about his brother's whereabouts! That's what's troubling to me!
kaj
# kaj 2012-07-21 06:09
but Lala2 if Sam stopped hunting, how could he find Dean? Through what way? It's all correlated, see?

I'm with you here. I want Sam to try hard to find Dean and I want us to be shown scenes and dialogues of those miserable months of his. Despite his rendezvous with the Vet doctor he should never stop finding Dean because Dean never stop trying to get Sam out of Hell. Dean was miserable.

But IMHO trying to find Dean = involved in the hunting world, either as a consultant or home base like Bobby or else.

Stopped hunting = leaving the supernatural world = leaving a shred of hope in finding Dean. Because Dean was gone due to supernatural cause.

I think the writers should make it clear what they mean by Sam leaving the hunting life. In what capacity he left the hunting life? Could he left the hunting life but still able to conduct research to find Dean?

IMO to find Dean then he must continue "hunting", hunting for clues, hunting for Crowley, Purgatory residents, even Leviathan to somehow bled information from them. Perhaps trying to find Kevin because Kevin read God's tablet and it was said that Dean was gone due to the recoil of God's weapon. Sam should never stopped hunting while Dean's still MIA because hunting is IMO the only way to find clue to Dean's whereabout.
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2012-07-16 12:18
Sam has never been, nor is a villain. He has had a terribly hard life as has Dean.
Everything that has happened to him has been thrust upon him. He didn't ask for the demon blood. It's a bit difficult for a six month old baby to express any wishes, good or bad.

If we want to go looking for blame we could easily put it on Castiel's shoulders, as if it wasn't for him taking Dean back in time to witness everything that happened, Azazel would never have caught young Mary's and Dean's scent in the first place, causing the whole demon blood thing to be set into motion.

I'm not going to bore anyone by going through the whole series again but Sam has stated more than once that there is nothing he wouldn't do for Dean.
Now if the writers have conveniently forgotten that and want to portray the brother who has always been considered the empathic, caring ,emotional one as a cold-hearted man who doesn't care what's happened to his big brother, they are free to do, so but they can't expect everyone to agree with them.
I for one don't!
lala2
# lala2 2012-07-16 14:47
Quote:
I'm not going to bore anyone by going through the whole series again but Sam has stated more than once that there is nothing he wouldn't do for Dean.

Now if the writers have conveniently forgotten that and want to portray the brother who has always been considered the empathic, caring ,emotional one as a cold-hearted man who doesn't care what's happened to his big brother, they are free to do, so but they can't expect everyone to agree with them.
I for one don't!
I agree w/you! I refused to believe that Sam would just say, "Well, I guess Dean died. Oh well. I hated hunting anyway. Hey . . . that doctor is cute. Maybe she can be my girlfriend."

That is some BS! It completely goes against EVERYTHING we know about Sam. Unless Sam's under a spell or something, none of this will track for me!
misty
# misty 2012-07-16 17:13
You guys are jumping to conclusions. For one thing, it seems a little strange that Jensen would throw that many spoilers out there so soon, so for all we know, he was being deliberately cagey, misleading us just to throw us off. Second, just because they show Sam having a love interest or some kind of non-hunting life, it was made clear that this was after some time had passed. They are going to bring us up to speed about what happened during the time Dean was gone via flashbacks. How do we know that Sam didn't try as hard as he could to find/rescue Dean in the months leading up to that? Maybe he finally had to resign himself to the fact, as far as he knew, that Dean was lost and there was nothing more he could do. In any case, it's clear to me that htye intend to explore Sam's character apart from Dean, and this should make all Sam fans happy.
lala2
# lala2 2012-07-16 17:21
There was an interview w/Ben Edlund where he says Dean resents Sam for not trying to look for him.

Can't blame Dean for that as that would be a real d*ck move by Sam!

Misty, I want it to play out the way you said. Before these spoilers dropped, that's what I thought we'd get - a desperate Sam searching for a way to help his brother but finally resigning himself to the loss.

Apparently, according to BE, JP, and JC, we're getting a Sam who washed his hands of the situation immediately. A Sam who assumes Dean's dead, and since Bobby and Cas aren't present to hold his hand, he couldn't possibly research into this and figure things out. A Sam who simply doesn't care that Dean is probably being tortured somewhere since a lead isn't blinking in his face!

I know I'm being bitchy but these spoilers really upset me as a bi-bro fan who loves the show for the brotherhood! I see the brotherhood being trashed under this scenario.

I can only hope it plays out like you and I both want (i.e., Sam searching for Dean and looking for ways to get him back).
Nita
# Nita 2012-07-16 13:02
Thank you Leesa for saying that. I am getting a little upset at the Sam bashing going on here, even before the season has started!
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-07-16 13:25
No-one on here is bashing Sam, Nita. They’re certainly doing it elsewhere but not here. Many of the posters here are upset at the spoilers because they indicate that Sam will once again turn his back on Dean the first chance he gets, which portrays him in a phenomenally negative light. If these spoilers are true then it is the show, via how it chooses to portray Sam that is continually thrashing him, not the posters on here.
Sage
# Sage 2012-07-16 13:40
Actually, what I'd like is for the show to give us NO more reasons for people bashing Sam.

I hate Sam bashing, but that doesn't mean I can't be hard on the show and how it is shaping this character.

For anyone who thinks I bash Sam: I don't. I love Sam, love him. I'm mad at how he's being treated by the writers, that's all.
lala2
# lala2 2012-07-16 14:51
No one is bashing Sam, but the writers are definitely trashing and effectively ruining his character if they go this route!

Most of us are upset w/the writers chosen action for Sam. Most of us don't believe Sam wouldn't look for Dean. Most of us aren't buying what the writers are selling. And most of us are sad that Sam is once again being portrayed as the cold, callous, unfeeling, uncaring, selfish brother.

It's not right.
misty
# misty 2012-07-16 17:18
Well, Nita, I guess we must see things a bit differently, cause I see no Sam bashing, but I sure do see Dean bashing galore.
All I see on here is lots of Sam love
kaj
# kaj 2012-07-21 00:33
It's not Sam bashing, please. I love Sam and Dean equally.
I am just worried of the way they write Sam this season. We protest because we love Sam as a character.

Before the spoiler I have high hopes for the brotherhood to return after the devastating S7. I like the bond that they share is explored. I can't think of any other way to strengthen the bond other than writing Sam trying to climb mountain and swim the ocean to find Dean. If in the end he failed I want him to try as hard as he can. Just like Dean to be miserable without his brother.
lala2
# lala2 2012-07-16 10:31
Great post, Tim! I couldn't agree more with you.

I'm not happy about the character assassination of Sam. It sucks. He was sacrificed in Season 4, and now he's being sacrificed again. Is it too much to show Sam caring about his brother? I never thought so but these spoilers make it seem that way!

It honestly does seem like the writers have something against Sam. Why must he be shown in this callous, uncaring way? Of all the things I imagined, Sam simply not giving a crap that Dean disappeared and not likely in a good place was NOT one of them!
Aggie
# Aggie 2012-07-16 11:37
I can't understand why people are so angry!

To me this story makes Sam relatable in a way he hasn't been in many years. Demon blood, Ruby, vampire manoeuvres etc were arguably a kind of character assassination. This on the other hand is believable and healthy, going back to life when you have no alternative, no way help those you've lost. Of all the things Sam has done, running off to college was good life instinct, and this is too. It's characteristic and praiseworthy.

It is a possible recovery position. Hats off to Carver for coming up with a natural way to progress the character. I also like what Edlund (was it?) said about Sam maybe losing touch with what was worth saving in ordinary life over the years. This story reinvests him in the things that everyone counts as important. Gives him something worth fighting to protect. I can't see it as villainy.

I like the reset to Season 1 too. It's bold from Carver to go all the way back to the beginning after all these years. It's going to be a fresh new slant on that old Winchester way of life.

For the first time in many years, Dean has a story; Sam isn't being written as a monster, and we'll get a great collision of two utterly different experiences. I like the texture and resonance of flashback in this context. The search for the power source is an interesting long arc. And the impala is back... Plus we know Cas will be a part of the story, and many of the other favourites too. Would be amazing if John Winchester could be part of it, however briefly. Above all, I'm so pleased Dean has a story... Did I say?

For me on just about every level these are great spoilers. They make me trust the show runner and his team. No wonder everyone looked so cheerful at ComicCon.
Nita
# Nita 2012-07-16 13:04
Aggie, that is a wonderful comment and you are absolutely right!
Michelle Kinseth
# Michelle Kinseth 2012-07-16 15:54
Thank you , Aggie, for this tempered comment. I completely agree with you regarding the Sam aspect. And now I'm going to stop reading this thread because all this negativity for these teeny, tiny spoilers is putting a damper my excitement for the new season.

Cheers!
Nita
# Nita 2012-07-16 22:53
mybelle, I feel the same. These comments are ruining it for me. Some are rude, and some extremely negative even before the season has started! I am unsubscribing from this thread and the other one.
alysha
# alysha 2012-07-16 12:25
I started liking Sam long ago in the golden years. As evil ior misguided as he was in season four, he was interesting. Once Sam got his soul back he became intensely boring. He really serves no purpose. His intelligence is all gone.So I sure hope something happens to make him worth watching again. I didn't mind him being bad or having demon blood, it was interesting.

As for Dean, I think h usually has a compelling storyline, but, he did get somewhat dull in season seven.vakhm I still have high hopes Carver will work out something fresh.
Nita
# Nita 2012-07-16 13:01
Quote:
How could anyone like Sam?
I find it amazing that anyone can ask that. I know some vague person on some other website said that, but this board is proof that we all love Sam! And we cannot assume that we will stop loving him in Season 8. Please let us not assume that. The season has not yet started.
There is so much that is lovable about Sam and Dean.
Dean because he is so incredibly brave, and heroic, and so loyal, committed, fiercely protective, and a great hunter! Sam because he is brave and heroic but also because he is so vulnerable inside, such an underdog, sweet and kind, and very gentle.
I really doubt that this will change in Season 8. If there are those who will hate Sam in Season 8, well, I think they never liked him.
misty
# misty 2012-07-16 13:36
Again Tim, where are you getting this crap? Sam is always shown to be the hero, saving the day, except for last season! They rarely let Dean save the day!
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-07-16 13:39
misty, I'll address your comment when you rephrase it in a more polite manner.
misty
# misty 2012-07-16 17:35
I was not being impolite, Tim. I don't what you talking about.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-07-16 17:39
Quote:
Again Tim, where are you getting this crap?
misty, you might not consider calling someone's opinion and comment 'crap' as being impolite, but I do.
Nita
# Nita 2012-07-16 13:44
misty I can't help but agree with you. Sam has saved the day, the whole world, and ofcourse with Dean's help. And Dean has saved Sam more often, like a typical protective elder brother!
However, I never see either one of the brothers as saving the world or innocent people on their own, although one may play a larger part in some particular incident. Mostly they do it together. Yes, Sam has always been shown as the hero, and so has Dean. It will be the same this season.
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2012-07-16 10:44
The Leviathans came from Purgatory. It's been about that all season, so it would at least be the first thing that I would think of, and I'm not as bright as Sam is supposed to be.
The whole series is about the two inseparable Winchester brothers who have sacrificed everything for each other including stints in Hell and deals of various natures.

I believe we saw Sam upset at the end of Season Seven for the disappearance of his brother, so either the character has been brainwashed in the time between end season seven and season eight, otherwise he would be on the track of his brother.

Sam is of course free to forget all about Dean and the hunting world and concentrate on normal, but it wouldn't be the Sam I've come to know and love for his ethics, morals and love and care for his brother Dean.
Nita
# Nita 2012-07-16 13:08
I don't think Sam can assume that Dean is in Purgatory. Only monsters go to Purgatory. Why should Dean go there? Dean of all people!! It's quite a shock that Dean and Cas land up there. Sam has no idea that this can even happen. He would assume that Dean is dead and in heaven perhaps. Cas has disappeared too, so how can he get Dean out of heavan?
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2012-07-17 14:06
I don't agree that Sam has "no idea" what happened to Dean, not after he witnessed - not Dean dying - but simply Dean, along with Cas, disappearing after killing Dick.

Crowley even told Sam: "That bone... has a bit of a kick. God weapons often do." So why wouldn't Sam assume that Dean's disappearance is a result of him using the weapon?

Sam was locked in a cage with Lucifer in hell and Dean still tried to get him out. Anyway, I still think that Sam must try to find Dean but he just doesn't succeed so then he eventually gives up.
isleofskye
# isleofskye 2012-07-16 10:48
sorry double post above. :( was replying to Slak
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2012-07-16 11:18
How can anyone sit that close to Jensen and actually survive?!! He's so flipping gorgeous!

Ahem. Anyway, I am thrilled beyond belief that Dean's storyline will be so integral to the mytharc! It seems that we will get some flashbacks of Dean in Purgatory and that his experiences there will be an essential part of the overall storyline this season. I've been waiting a long time for this type of storyline for Dean so I'm very happy about these spoilers.

RE: Sam not looking for Dean... I'm not sure what to think about that. I can't believe that Sam didn't understand what Crowley meant when he told Sam in the S7 finale that the weapon they used to kill Dick had "quite a kick." I just assumed that he realized that Dean & Cas were swept into Purgatory with Dick. Maybe he does realize that but thinks it's too risky to try to get Dean out? IDK.

Anyway, I'm very happy with the spoilers so far. And did I mention how gorgeous Jensen is here? :-)
Slak
# Slak 2012-07-16 11:31
Quote:
How can anyone sit that close to Jensen and actually survive?!! He's so flipping gorgeous!
:lol: Would be like looking into the sun? :)
Nita
# Nita 2012-07-16 13:10
The weapon had a kick, but there is no way that anyone would think that a good person like Dean would go to Purgatory. Maybe Cas had become a monster, but never Dean. People are supposed to go to places they deserve...good people to heavan, bad ones to hell, and monsters to purgatory. That is the logic.
Bevie
# Bevie 2012-07-16 16:48
Yes, I believe that Sam wouldn't have a clue to where Dean was taken. He wouldn't know if Dean and Cas were completely destroyed, or transferred elsewhere. He would be devastated that again, he may not be able to save or rescue them.

He would grieve if he thought Dean was really dead, but he probably would think he was in heaven, as he had been there many times before. (according to Ash) If so, he wouldn't try to retrieve him from there, would he?

He might believe it was Crowley who killed Dean. Why would Sam believe Dean would go to purgatory, where the monsters go? It might cross his mind but it wouldn't be feasible. We know Sam thinks Dean is heading for heaven when he goes. He said so in "Dark Side of the Moon".

Eventually he would have to live his life, or kill himself.
Nia
# Nia 2012-07-16 13:29
Jensen DOES look particularly striking here.

I don't know if I'm the only one, but I am profoundly curious/excited /worried about Dean's actions in Purgatory. The actions that he can't tell Sam about. Most likely, he's ashamed...but what's there to ashamed of when monsters are all there is in Purgatory. I mean, it's all about survival of the fittest (XD) right? Could what he did, be so terrible, that he'd place it above his own survival?

I always thought that Dean had an unexplored "darker" side, ever since the whole 'I tortured human souls and liked it' thing.

So excited for season 8!!!!!!!
Nita
# Nita 2012-07-16 13:39
Yes, that occurred to me too. Dean did something shady in there, but no Dean fan is complaining! Yes, Dean probably did make friends with a bad guy, but he did it to survive! He didn't prefer to die rather than make friends with someone worse than a demon. But I am not blaming Dean.
And Sam is doing all he can do to survive in the outside world. He is moving on, and I think it's pretty brave because I know he is very sad without Dean. I don't need JC to show me that but I am sure he will in some way.
I think we have to understand that both brothers are not black and white, but shades of gray. That is why we love them.
Slak
# Slak 2012-07-16 13:57
Maybe he sells cas out, or uses him in some way to get out? I can't think who else would matter in purgatory. They elude to a character from the early seasons mattering again though, making it personal, who would that be, could they have been in purgatory?
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-07-16 14:42
While I'm very excited for the storyline - and not to speak for all Dean-fans but most of them that I know aren't complaining right now because the character hasn't gotten anything interesting to do since mid-Season 5 - I don't want it to be a total retreat of hell. Wth giving Dean more of a guilt complex and a beatdown on his supposedly evil, shameful deeds.

I take it he had to be rather ruthless to survive down there and, to get out, he partnered up with a purgatory creature which will leave him somewhat indebted to that creature.

But I think it's high time and look forward to seeing the character portrayed as a hero again. Something which IMO has not been done for years now.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-07-16 14:47
I always thought that Dean had an unexplored "darker" side, ever since the whole 'I tortured human souls and liked it' thing.

I wouldn't mind exploring the character being harder, colder, more ruthless but I never thought the torturing in hell thing was any sign of some hidden dark side.

At the point he started torturing, the very absence of pain would have already felt lke the biggest joy imaginable. So the character can hardly judge correctly what he felt down in hell.

And lets be realistic, 99 % of people would have jumped up immediately to torture others. Probably "enjoying" it, too. I wouldn't think it pointed to a dark side in any of them.

Stuff they did with all their faculties intact on Earth? Yup. But anything under THAT extreme duress? Nope.
Bevie
# Bevie 2012-07-16 16:52
Right! Although I think it would be more like 99.999%!

I know I wouldn't last 5 seconds, let alone 30 years! :P
saumya
# saumya 2012-07-16 15:19
Why are people jumping to conclusions so early.. Carver only said that the whole season 8 arc is not about Sam saving Dean from purgatory.. that doesn't mean that Sam didn't do anythng to save Dean.. the story is about Sam and Dean, a younger and an older brother together..!! its not an individual story.. before judging atleast let the episodes telecast first.. and Jared and Jensen fans need to calm down.. if they never had any such issues about meatier part why are we discussing it so much.. I think when season 8 will be on air we will have our Winchester love back..
Supernarttu
# Supernarttu 2012-07-16 15:27
I really like that Dean seems to have a storyline this year!

It sounds great actually, I've always liked his dark streaks too (seasons 2 and 4 come to mind). And I would be thrilled to explore more of that. I'd love for him to have some fire in him again, some badassery and hunterwits!!

BUT what I don't want is him to come back as a "Woe is me"-Dean. I want him to come back harder, yes, but not as a depressed morose man who has lost his will and spark to live (like the last "few" seasons).

As much as I'm sad and sickened about Sams "story", I feel thankful that atleast Dean has something interesting for him. I do hope that they can make both of them look good in the end.
deangirl1
# deangirl1 2012-07-16 15:58
I will never stop watching Supernatural, writing articles on it, and supporting the show, cast, and crew. BUT this thread has highlighted why I NEVER follow forums anymore. It's amazing to me that there is anyone left watching given the amount of complaining and hate in so many of these comments.
LEAH D
# LEAH D 2012-07-16 17:00
Can you say hornets nest? I think there must be more spoilers out there than I've read so far for so many people to jump to so many conclusions. Can we just give the new season a chance? JC said not all is what it seems so it might be intriguing to see what happens as they unpeel the layers. I can't believe they would ever portray Sam as not caring or making no effort to help, find his brother. Even when they were at odds in other seasons, I have never felt he didn't care about Dean, quite the contrary. I, for one, will look forward to the new season with an open mind and form my opinions as it unfolds.
misty
# misty 2012-07-16 18:09
To all those who accused me of being confrontational and rude, I was NOT. And I never said you couldn't have your own opinions. I am just puzzled by them. I have watched the same show as you and to me, it has always been Sam held up and glorified as the one that matters, given the meatiest story arcs, while the best they can do for Dean/Jensen is alcoholism and depression, without ever even addressing those issues. So I guess I'm just scratching my head here. I don't get why you all think Sam gets the raw deal.
Shelby
# Shelby 2012-07-16 23:30
Jensen looks absolutely gorgeous and so vibrant in this video. His hair and his eyes are absolutely swoon-worthy. I love that we're going to actually get to see what happened to Dean and Cas in Purgatory. And I especially love that Dean and Jensen are finally getting a more supernaturally- themed storyline again. I can't wait for the season to start and it feels so good to be able to say that and feel the excitement and anticipation of a new season again. The last time was 3 seasons ago. Thanks for all the videos.
kmarie
# kmarie 2012-07-16 23:57
OK, wow. Wank wank wank wankity wank-wank WANKWANKWANKWAN K. That's basically all I'm reading.
Um, so why don't we all wait to get pissed about season 8 until after we've seen it? I mean, honestly, give it a chance to impress you before you just assume it's going to suck. I understand being worried about it based on spoilers, but please remember that they are spoilers only. No one has given us a detailed episode (or seasonal) synopsis. If they told us every last detail and explained all the character's motivations, there would theoretically be no point in watching the show at all. They are being deliberately vague and I'm sure there's a lot more going on besides "Sam abandoned Dean and is living with Lisa 2.0, Dean is pissed, blah blah blah."
So.... obviously everyone has a right to their own opinion and expressing that opinion and all that good stuff, but could we keep it civil? No name calling? And try to cut back on the prophecies of doom? I love this fandom, but honestly I've never encountered so many people who are so willing to conclude that the show will suck based on a few minutes of interviews. Let it play out. And if you think it sucks then, by all means, feel free to say "I told you so".
Linda D
# Linda D 2012-07-17 07:11
I have always enjoyed this and was so glad when I discovered it, as I am a new but now fanatical Supernatural fan. However the angst on this page and the negative exchanges occurring between it's members makes me rethink my continued perusal of this site. I thought you enjoyed this show and am now confused!
Sage
# Sage 2012-07-17 10:24
I used to enjoy it.
But why can't a fan express disappointment? Should I be happy no matter what? I'm not a sheep, sorry.
And after watching 7 seasons, I'd like to be able to keep my hopes, I'd like to think they're treating the characters well, but it seems it's asking to much and I'm a bad fan.

I'm sorry if I spoil the fun for other fans, but you'll get your fun with the season, let me vent a bit at least since that's all I'll get.
Lipglosskaz
# Lipglosskaz 2012-07-17 22:37
Quote:
I have always enjoyed this and was so glad when I discovered it, as I am a new but now fanatical Supernatural fan. However the angst on this page and the negative exchanges occurring between it's members makes me rethink my continued perusal of this site. I thought you enjoyed this show and am now confused!
Me too Linda, i don't blame others for having differing opinions but there is so much bashing of the show (which hasn't even aired yet) that i am wondering why those "fans" keep coming back here? It makes it unpleasant for the newish fans like me who were hoping to discuss our excitement over the show.
I don't mind reading one or two similar negative posts but when there is post after post (by the same people) on each site entry) it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Where is the love?
lala2
# lala2 2012-07-17 22:58
Not everyone is going to love everything about the show. That's just not going to happen. I don't know of any show that has only positive fans.
Sage
# Sage 2012-07-17 23:02
Why do you say fans using quotes? We're fans, just because we dislike something doesn't mean we're not fans. In fact, we're angry because we are fans. If i only liked the show a bit as I like other CW shows, I wouldn't argue and comment and wouldn't be this upset.
Fan comes from fanatical, don't forget that bit :D
Alice
# Alice 2012-07-18 01:06
Linda, or anyone else with concerns, please don't let one thread turn you away. Sadly, and this has happened the last four years every time I've posted Comic Con articles, the negative side of the fandom finds it way here. I can't avoid it, especially when I'm traveling and limited to moderating. Read the comments on the other Comic Con interviews from prior years. They're equally as bad.

We have plenty of great, level headed discussions, especially during the season when new episodes air. Just please excuse this thread and don't judge the entire site based on it. We are happy fans, I promise! As a matter of fact, I might post a happiness thread this week. I usually do to counter all the negativity. I can say that at Comic-Con everyone was very upbeat and positive about the new season. More than other seasons I think.
Alice
# Alice 2012-07-17 16:30
Hey everyone! Greetings from your friendly neighborhood moderator.

I'm finally back in my time zone from Comic-Con, and as you all may have noticed, I haven't been moderating comments. I haven't had the access or the time, and Ardeospina is away on vacation too.

I'm going to start going through all these comments later, but I have already gotten a few "reported comment" messages. Those will be dealt with eventually, I promise. In the meantime, keep the tempers and the "offense" over comments down to a minimum. The number one most important rule here is respecting others. Everyone has an opinion, and all are welcome, even unpopular ones. Obnoxious behavior on the other hand, not allowed.
Lynx
# Lynx 2012-07-19 03:30
Dean's arc sounds very interesting this year, I really hope they follow through on it properly this season.

Alice's comment on one of these threads (sorry, found it once and now I've forgotten where, oops!) about there seeming to be a much more positive vibe and definite direction for the story give me more hope that this season will be an improvement over s7
Ismira
# Ismira 2012-07-19 07:33
I think we're all jumping to conclusions too soon. Like someone pointed out already, I'm willing to believe that what Ben Edlund had said about Sam not "trying" to find Dean is Dean's P.O.V. It isn't the first time that either of the brothers have misunderstood the other's intentions. Again, Sam walking out of the corporation and into a normal life is simply implausible, it's almost silly to consider that this is what happened. Surely there must be more, and considering that Carver had written "Mystery Spot", I'm convinced there will be more. I tend to gravitate more towards Sam, so I get why everyone's so aggravated, but let's just cross our fingers and give JC a chance!
Amy
# Amy 2012-07-21 13:18
The thing i'm curious about is when did Dean become an advocat for Destiny when for the last few years he was Team Free Will's founder, Leader and main cheerleader?

Why is it suddenly his and sam's destiny to Hunt? Shouldn't Sam (Dean has already freely chosen to hunt) be free to choose to Hunt for himself?
emmau
# emmau 2012-07-21 20:22
I'm not sure Dean thinks it's his (or Sam's) destiny to hunt as much as it is their duty. They are part of a very select few who are able to recognize the supernatural and save people from it. Therefore, I think in Dean's mind that makes it their job to help people, because there are so few with their knowledge and skill set. So if you are the only one who can save someone from a burning car, are you obligated to do so if it puts you in danger? It's an interesting question.

Sam, to me, has a very strong sense of self that Dean doesn't possess. Sam tends to be able to view himself as an individual, with needs and wants of his own, while Dean tends to solely identify himself through his role as hunter/brother. So it makes sense to me that Sam can compartmentaliz e the hunter and lock him away, while Dean finds it much harder to separate himself from what he sees as his purpose.

At the end of the day, Dean has the right to ask Sam to join him, and I can understand why he would question why Sam isn't out there hunting. I think Sam also has the right to make the decision for himself, which I assume he will as he is a strong, independent character who has consistently chosen his own path.
Sage
# Sage 2012-07-21 23:00
Well, in one of those CC's interviews, Jensen said Dean comes back from Purgatory with a renewed liking for hunting, and that he understands now again that his destiny is being with Sam on the road and that he's happy to do it Something like that.

It seems Sam joins, but we don't know under what conditios, of course. But I really think, at the very end, if he joins his brother is because he actually wants to, not because he feels coerced or that he has no other choice.
I really hope so.
emmau
# emmau 2012-07-21 23:45
Sam is supposed to take away a new sense of what he's fighting for after his year off, according to interviews, so I'm hoping that he chooses to join his brother because he also has renewed dedication. It certainly would be much more enjoyable than seeing Sam unhappy and resentful. But since Sam knows he has other choices and has proven willing to forge his own path before over Dean's objections, I pretty much take Sam's choices as being his own.

I find destiny an odd choice of words for Dean's renewed sense of purpose, but I doubt that Jensen, on the fly in an interview, meant destiny in the same context as it was given in S5. I personally am excited by the idea of show letting Dean climb out of the rut he's been shoved in for years now and actually gain some measure of satisfaction and enjoyment from hunting again.
caelius
# caelius 2012-07-21 18:09
I'm not sure he's using destiny in quite that fated a sense, but I suspect that the season may intend to modify Dean's single-minded zeal, just as it will modify Sam's reluctance to be involved in hunting. At a guess, the end point is meant to be some kind of compromise, where Sam is hunting, but Dean is also making some room for normal and for the two not needing to want exactly the same thing in order to work together.

Yes, sometimes I am capable of optimism about spoilers. Amazing.
Amy
# Amy 2012-07-22 00:05
I'm totally excited about Deans renewed love for hunting. But I'm confused about context. In S1 Dean loved hunting because he was saving people and hopefully saving their family from being destroyed like his was.

I'm thinking Purgatory doesn't have a human population that needed a protector. So why? So what purpose did he discover that hunting was for im? I mean I'd think Purgatory: It was kill or be killed....survi val of the Fittest. How does that translate into Hunting is our duty. Does it include the 'saving people' as well? Does Dean see peop...HUMANITY worth saving? Does he now believe humanity DOESNT want to die?

I geuss I want to know that Dean wants to hunt not so he can kill monsters because then he's fulfilling his own assesment of being nothing then a killer. I HOPE Dean sees the value in teh reason behind Hunting...savin g people.
emmau
# emmau 2012-07-22 00:37
Dean's renewed sense of purpose in hunting after purgatory could easily be given a humanitarian spin, in my opinion. Now that he's survived among monsters and seen the worst they have to offer, he could come out of Hell thinking people like Sam and he are part of a very small group that are able to identify and save innocent people from all the creatures he had to fight against there. So it's his duty to save as many people as he can. They can work in a bit of newly-hardened Dean by saying the best way to save those people is to kill as many monsters as they can, if that's the way they want to go, but I think it'd be easy to return to the "saving people, hunting things" mantra if that's the way show wants to go.

The operative phrase, of course, is if that's the way show wants to go. I hope that it is, since that's seemed to be a core piece of his characterizatio n since the first season, until Sam and Dean's motivations for hunting became completely muddled in the latter seasons. So a return to form would be great.