This involves a recent controversy that some people are interrupting other threads for, so I’m giving this issue its own space. If you want nothing to do with controversy and vicious fan fighting, please look away now. This will be very nasty. 

Okay, here’s my statement. A few days ago, one of my writers sent me some links to Comic Con articles sharing spoilers. An article on the Innsmouth Free Press was one of them. I read through the article and I was instantly offended. The author of that article took many of the comments coming from Comic Con and twisted them into a scathing complaint about Supernatural and its direction. The tone overall was negative and bitter.   Considering I had just gotten back from Comic Con where everyone was very, very excited about the new season and the new direction, cast, producers, fans, media, everyone,  I took offense to the article twisting those words in that manner. Honestly, it royally pissed me off.   She wasn’t there. How would she know the context of the session? How dare she turn something really positive into something horribly backbiting like that?
Now, I’ve been blogging for a few years. There’s a reality about blogging. Anything you post is fair game. Anything with an opinion puts the author’s head on a chopping block. People are going to object. People will also praise you to high heaven for your words. Others will jump on you and make personal insults. The latter sadly over the last few years is becoming more of the norm than the exception. I attended a panel of webmasters at Comic Con that all said pretty much the same thing. It’s a hostile environment out there. It requires thick skin. 
Yes, I delivered a post that was harsh. I’m not ashamed of it. I posted my name on it so my objection went on public record. I still stand by that post today. The article was unfair and offensive to those that love this show and want to be excited by what’s coming up.  I made one quick statement and walked away. I haven’t been back to that site again, nor will I ever. I’m allowed to state my opinion too. I’m allowed to be offended too. It’s part of the forum.  I'm not telling anyone how to act or how to do anything.  I'm not so delusional to think that I actually have that power!  I think there are too many sensitive people out there that have fun twisting words. 
Lord knows I’ve posted enough things where people have instantly jumped on me for giving an opinion that didn’t agree with theirs. A lot of those opinions have been disrespectful. I’ve never got warnings or “heads up” that someone objected. It’s the nature of the medium. Writers must be thick skinned. Writers must be prepared for backlash. If a writer can’t take that, then blogging isn’t for them. 
Now, for those hurling insults my way since then, claiming I’m trying to “censor” the Internet (which is a ludicrous suggestion) let me explain how we do things at The Winchester Family Business. This site was created as a safe haven for posters that were getting fed up with all the negativity and fighting at TWOP and Livejournal. These are fans that want to intelligently and rationally discuss their show without fear of attack.
When I posted my article on Eric Kripke’s statements about “Swan Song” at Comic Con, I edited some harsh comments after repeated warnings that were not relevant to that discussion. After all, the regular readers of this site don’t want to read personal attacks and complaints about something that didn’t happen on this site. So, to be fair, I’m moving all those statements over to the comments in this article below. I’m also reposting the edited comments in full tact. Yes, I keep a record of everything I receive.  
So again, I must warn our regular readers, those that wish to avoid acid attitudes should stay away. 
Those that think I’m being unfair or whatever go ahead, just let loose here.  Have at it.  I won’t edit unless actual threats are made.  

Comments  

Zara
# Zara 2010-08-07 01:39
Your vehement defense of all things Kripke makes me wonder if you're some kind of PR plant or something.

There's an awful lot of spinning going on here, not to mention your attempts to stifle criticism on another blog site.

Why are you so freaked that a few disgruntled fans are making some noise?

You've said it yourself. They tell the story they want to tell so why should it bother you if people express dislike of that story or the comments made by the show's creator?

As for moving on, I think plenty of people will be doing just that next year when they move right on from the show so it's all good right?
Karen M
# Karen M 2010-08-07 01:40
Like the poster above, I’ve also seen your attempt to effectively censor what was being said on the other critic’s blog – that was her opinion, based on her interpretation and she is just as entitled to it as you are. She also is entitled to express it, on her blog – like you do. Just calling out to what you said on the other person’s blog – an extremely large portion (and quite possibly a majority) of fandom hated the finale. Perhaps you should just accept that and move on?
Karen M
# Karen M 2010-08-07 01:41
a warning that unless she was there, she should be careful of such assumptions"

I find this ludicrous and actually quite disturbing. So you're handing out *warnings* now about how fans should interpret things? You stated quite bluntly, on the other critic's site, that her conclusions were wrong - you didn't qualify it by saying that was simply your opinion at all, you stated it as fact: "your “conclusionsâ € about what was said at Comic Con couldn’t be more wrong".

"it's not my place to tell fans what to think"

Quite. So perhaps doing exactly this on another critic's blog isn't the best course of action?

No doubt this will get deleted...
lulzy!
# lulzy! 2010-08-07 01:42
Alice emailing you privately wouldn't expose your hypocrisy.

You invited people to express their opinions on this site, whether negative or positive. Then you call people trolls for doing just that or complain about people spamming the site with negative opinions and you call their attitudes poisonous and tell them to stop watching the show.

You claim to not want to censor but you delete posts you find objectionable. Meanwhile you allow posts that attack the posters who do express negative opinions.

You make posts here and on other sites that are just as "belligerent" and act like the wounded party when people point that out to you.

No doubt you will delete this post too, but it only exposes the hypocrisy of your attitude.
Callie
# Callie 2010-08-07 01:44
Callie - "Further to that, I have to say that if you have such a problem with the way a site is run, with the nature of the articles, etc. then don't visit - that's why I don't go to the other sites - they don't further my enjoyment of the show or the fandom community."

Can I just point out that I came here because Alice's adventures on another critic's blog were criticized at length on a couple of LJ communities yesterday. If she hadn't gone and posted her instructions on how fans should think at the other critic's blog, this post would probably be more in line with what you're used to reading.

I have posted my grievances with season 5 and the finale, which are to do with characterizatio n, pacing, lack of continuity and abysmal acting. I haven't posted any hateful comments about other fans. However, reading through this thread more thoroughly, I see that many posters who are on here saying how much they enjoyed the finale (including Alice Jester, I might add) are calling those of us who have posted here to say we don’t gremlins and trolls, and accusing us of being poisonous, ranting, narcissistic, spiteful, and vitriolic, and of using twisted arguments. I haven't done that and I don't see anyone else doing it either. I see posts have been deleted but I read those posts yesterday and they were along the same lines as mine and were (quite rightly IMO) calling Alice out for having gone to the other critic's blog.

"Further to that, I have to say that if you have such a problem with the way a site is run, with the nature of the articles, etc. then don't visit"

Again, I only came here because Alice Jester chose to post on another critic's blog in order to chastise her and the commenters there for being "wrong." I would respectfully suggest you pass your message onto Alice.

"Respect is the number one rule on this site and I won't bend on that."

In that case, Alice, and given this site is apparently unbiased, shouldn't those posts be deleted? As I expect this one will be?
Mel K
# Mel K 2010-08-07 01:45
And yeah, I also saw the posts on the anon meme and I think it's pretty poor form to post on another blog while posting here about respect etc, and also to encourage people to post here and then delete their posts while a whole lot of other insults flying back the other way get left here. There isn't much point in saying you're fair and unbiased Alice because all of fandom is well aware of your bias. You're entitled to it – I have my own favorite brother after all. But have the guts to own up to yours or just stop claiming you're bi-bro. We all know you aren't and neither are most of the people who post here in suport of you.
Donna
# Donna 2010-08-07 01:45
"Respect is the number one rule on this site and I won't bend on that."

"She pissed me off that much. It was a statement of opinion and a warning that unless she was there, she should be careful of such assumptions."

Both quotes from you Alice. Seems to me you owe that other blogger an apology since you broke your own rule.
BTW, I also e-mailed you and copied everything in case of an inadvertant deletion.
elle
# elle 2010-08-07 02:16
"...neither are most of the people who post here in support of you."

As one of the aforementioned people who post "in support" I take some exception to this comment. It's a very sweeping statement. Certainly there are those who openingly admit to favouring a certain Winchester over another. But there are also some who are legitimately bi-brother fans. What is most key is that, at least on this site, nobody is targeted for expressing that preference if it's done in a constructive way. A wide variety of post and articles of varying opinions on the major characters and plots have been included on this site since it's inception. Further more considering that I am included in "all of fandom" and *don't* agree that Alice is bias or unfair - it seems this statement is inaccurate.

It's one thing to express a different opinion respectfully but it's another thing to out and out attack someone.

Regarding the ratings - you should read some of the articles that have been written here and at a multitude of other sites about the out-dated way that ratings are gathered and about the fact that a number of the fans watch online where ratings aren't gathered/includ ed from (don't even get me started on the fact that the Canadian faction isn't considered part of the ratings - we watch TV too you know). Also, just because a number of vocal individuals express an opinion (whatever that may be) about the show, it doesn't necessarily indicate that "droves" of fans will switch off.
As a long-time and loyal fan of the show, I really loathe being included in sweeping statements such as the above.

As one of the regular vistors of this site I appreciate the effort that has gone into keeping it a clean, friendly environment - even if that means editing and/or removing outright nasty posts. Quite frankly, the remarks and digs toward Alice and the way this site is run are upsetting to those of us who come here and participate, at the very least, civilly with one another - because you obviously aren't regularly involved in what is happening here or you'd have a more well rounded and informed idea of what the Winchester Family Business is all about. It is frustrating that some people come to this site seemingly just to create chaos. If you have concerns that your post is going to be edited - well, it probably isn't a decent post and you know that even before you click "POST" in the comment section.

The regular individuals who participate year-round at the WFB and even those who mostly lurk but comment from time to time form a generally pleasant Supernatural community full of a wide variety of perspectives that are informed by a vast array of life experiences and senses of humour. You wouldn't like interloppers vandalizing your neighbourhood with hateful slurs in spraypaint - please respect that we don't care for that in the our online community anymore than in a real life community.

Thank you for this post, Alice. I'm sorry that you had to create it and address this issue (again) however I am happy to address these comments in the proper arena.
Amelia
# Amelia 2010-08-07 02:17
Alice, you erase posts and then respond to them on top of where the post used to be, so that no one can see what you're responding to. And then you wonder why no one emails you? Email correspondence requires trust. You can say, "I got an email from so and so that said this", and no one can say otherwise. But in a comments section, my words will at least stand for a moment, so others can judge how just your response was.

I was not abusive to you. I did not attack you. I said, calmly and rationally, that you do not have the power to tell anyone to get out of fandom. If that's the kind of post you delete, that says a lot more about you than it does about me. You're willing to let those who agree with you hurl abuse those who don't without deletion (such as the use of "poisonous creatures" to refer to those who disliked the finale), and you're willing to tell people to get out of fandom, but you erase comments that reasonably point out that you don't possess that authority. Disappointing.
Laurel F.
# Laurel F. 2010-08-07 03:28
I always find amusement in people with the argument of "Just because I didn't like ___ doesn't mean I'm a troll!" They seem to not realize that the majority of people telling them they're being totally out of line aren't calling them a troll...they're telling them they're *acting* like a troll.

Opinion makes the world go round, it's a great and necessary driving force, within fandom especially. I form my own (occasionally strongly-worded ) opinions, and while I don't expect everyone to agree with them, I do expect--as I'm gathering Alice is--people to respect them.

In that vein, I respect the opinions of those who hate the finale or numerous other complaints. It's their decision, I can't sway them otherwise if they don't wish to be. But that is far from meaning I can't object to them, or find them insulting and just plain nasty. That doesn't mean I'm calling that PERSON a horrible human being who deserves to die, merely that I think their way of expressing their opinion is juvenile.

I see nothing wrong with the way Alice runs things here. In fact, TWFB is one of the only sites I've been to wherein I don't have to thicken my skin just to participate. Is she censoring comments? Perhaps. Is she keeping the peace? Damn straight.

So, haters (yeah, I just called you that, what of it?), I ask you this: In an internet full of sites in which verbal warfare is waged, why can't you post your overtly negative opinions there and leave gems of sites such as this to those wanting a more welcoming environment? One that has differing opinions, but on which people take rational, mature standpoints instead of resorting to personal attacks?

The way I see it, Alice isn't trying in the least to tell people what to do or how to think. She's simply trying to maintain a place with thoughtful analyses and corresponding discussions free (or virtually free) of petty hatred. If you want to spew negativity, there are a billion sites to which you can go. And really, you should. Those of us not wanting to participate in playground snits would very much like you to.
mysticpeach
# mysticpeach 2010-08-07 05:33
Oi. See, this is why I left fandom. There's always a storm brewing somewhere.

As someone who has a long and varied history with Supernatural and the fandom, I have to say that none of these seething comments are anything I haven't read before. Same crap, different site. And really? I'm over it all. That's why I came here to begin with. I'm flat out tired of all the wank. It almost seems like it exists just to exist.

Does Alice delete comments that aren't respectfully written? Usually, yes she does. But her obligation is to the resident posters/readers here and not to the people who swing by to stir up drama. If you want your opinion heard and respected, then write it respectfully.

I personally hated season five. I came out of it with only about five episodes that I actually enjoyed (and Swan Song wasn't one of them). I do not care about the brothers relationship on an emotional level (read: I'll analyze it but I'm not enamored by it anymore); I'm more angry that Castiel was shortchanged last year than Dean; I do not particularly care for Sam; I don't "ship" or "slash" anything; and I think Gabriel was the lamest character ever. As the queen of unpopular opinions, and with a long history of clearly and honestly stating my opinions, I have never to this day written anything nearly as nasty as the comments I've read here.

It's not about tact. It's not about personal biases. It's not about censorship. It's about keeping 'one' place out of 10,000,000 other places free of wank so that people like me who have done away with most of fandom or anyone else who is tired of all the hatred can finally have a place to relax, share our opinions, and know that we won't have to grab our armor once more and defend ourselves against people like you all who obviously know nothing about respect.

PS: I know nothing of this other blog or what was said, and I honestly do not care. Like I said, same crap different site.

And Alice? Keep your chin up, love. You know once the season starts and people stop being bored this will die down significantly.
joelsteinlover
# joelsteinlover 2010-08-07 08:43
I appreciate immensely that Alice keeps the site clean for us. I don't want to love my favorite show on a battlefield. She's not telling us what to do or say, she's keeping the hate away from us for us, and I thank her for that. :-) That's the reason I love the WFB
Deborah
# Deborah 2010-08-07 09:55
Man, Alice, with all the vitriol being thrown at you at the Kripke/Swan Song post, I thought you must have posted something really awful at this other, unnamed blog, which I of course found hard to believe. So when you named the blog above, I went to look to see what I assumed to be your diatribe there. I found instead the following:

"I accept that you’re bitter and disgruntled, it happens in fandoms, but your “conclusionsâ € about what was said at Comic Con couldn’t be more wrong. Let someone who was actually there read between the lines. It was pure love, from the press, from the fans, everywhere. Most are still very happy about their show. They are moving on, you need to as well."

Man, I have to say I'm struggling to see the problem with this post. You told someone who was not at Comic Con that her "conclusions" about things said at Comic Con were wrong and then, as someone who was at Comic Con and thus had first-hand knowledge about not just what was said but also the atmosphere and the excitement "vibes" you picked up from Kripke, et al. by being there in the room with them, that there are lots of people -- fans, press and the SPN folks at CC included -- that still love the show and are excited about Season 6. The comments to your post were the problem, IMHO. They seemed to build off each other, charging you with everything from telling people what to think to stifling conversation to censorship to wrist slapping. Amazing.

Keep your chin up, Alice. You have a wonderful site here and I and many others appreciate the hard work that goes into maintaining it (especially this week!). And after reading the comments at that other site, I am more convinced than ever that there are a lot of people watching a different Supernatural than I am.
Donna
# Donna 2010-08-07 10:13
The way I see it, Alice isn't trying in the least to tell people what to do or how to think. She's simply trying to maintain a place with thoughtful analyses and corresponding discussions free (or virtually free) of petty hatred. If you want to spew negativity, there are a billion sites to which you can go. And really, you should. Those of us not wanting to participate in playground snits would very much like you to.


If Alice truly believed that she should have not gone into Paula Stiles' blog and done the very same thing you are accusing others of. She had to know this was going to get nasty.
Callie
# Callie 2010-08-07 10:19
“Please. I'm not telling anyone what to think.”

But Alice, I saw what you posted. You instructed the other critic (and by default anyone who comments to her to move on. And to me that definitely read like you are telling them how to think and what interpretation they should put on what they have seen and heard from ComicCon. And you are on here telling people they shouldn’t be posting that many fans disliked season 5 and the finale when even Eric Kripke has now admitted in public that he knows this is the case.

“As a long-time and loyal fan of the show, I really loathe being included in sweeping statements such as the above.

As one of the regular visitors of this site I appreciate the effort that has gone into keeping it a clean, friendly environment - even if that means editing and/or removing outright nasty posts.”

Elle, as a long-time and loyal fan of the show I resent being called a troll, gremlin, a hater, and all of the other insults I read in the “sweeping statements” (including yours) on the other thread. Alice Jester claims that she tolerates no disrespect of other fans – yet clearly she does, since these insults have been allowed to stand.

“the majority of people telling them they're being totally out of line aren't calling them a troll...they're telling them they're *acting* like a troll.”

That doesn’t even make sense, LaurelF – though of course that’s just my opinion.

“But that is far from meaning I can't object to them, or find them insulting and just plain nasty. I see nothing wrong with the way Alice runs things here. In fact, TWFB is one of the only sites I've been to wherein I don't have to thicken my skin just to participate. Is she censoring comments? Perhaps. Is she keeping the peace?”

I find being described as a troll, gremlin, hater insulting and just plain nasty, Laurel. I didn’t use words like that when I laid out my perfectly valid and legitimate issues with Swan Song. Is there one rule for your faction and one rule for mine? Because as it stands it sure looks that way. And I don’t see how Alice leaving those comments in those posts is keeping the peace. Why has she not censored those posts? It seems utterly clear to me why.

“Man, I have to say I'm struggling to see the problem with this post.”

Well Deborah, perhaps you need to read through what Alice said about this on her Kripke thread in the last few days (assuming those posts haven’t been deleted), about how she was issuing a “warning” to the other critic to be more “careful” and about how she didn’t tolerate “disrespect† and yet still felt it was okay to go and post that comment on the other website. Her standing (such as it was, and I have to say I had never even heard of her before reading one of the many discussions slamming her actions as unprofessional on LJ yesterday) has plummeted. I’m sorry, but what gives her the right to issue warnings instructing other critics/fans on how they should interpret spoilers? How people interpret things is entirely up to them. I’m not on here telling Alice and her commenters that their rose-tinted view of the spoilers we’ve heard is wrong am I?
Karen M
# Karen M 2010-08-07 11:13
“Everyone makes up their own minds about things.”

And yet the other critic is apparently not permitted to do this, according to what you posted at her site. Your double standards are laughable.
Suzie
# Suzie 2010-08-07 11:28
I just want to say that I love this site, and even though I rarely post, I've always enjoyed the thoughtful commentary here. Having said that, I can't help but think that Alice has brought all this negativity on herself. People flock to places that share their opinion, whether it be here, TWOP, etc. And they have the right to do that and I think all of us would be well-served to respect that and stop making derogatory remarks about fans on other sites. They are not bad fans just because they don't share our opinions. And Alice, it's demeaning and a little immature to tell another fan/critic that they are "bitter," "disgruntled," and to tell them to "move on" because you didn't like the way they talked about some spoilers. When you spread negativity, you will get it back. That fan didn't come here and tell you that you're awful for liking "Swan Song" and the direction the show appears to be headed. Fans who hated the last season have the right to have their own safe spaces where they can vent their frustration. I remember this place being a refuge for those of us who weren't thrilled with season 4. We all need to stop playing the "who's the better fan" game. It gets us nowhere. I think all of us could use this as a learning experience about how we treat each other.
Shelby
# Shelby 2010-08-07 11:52
"This site was created as a safe haven for posters that were getting fed up with all the negativity and fighting at TWOP and Livejournal."

Well, did you ever stop to think that maybe her site was created for people who were fed up with sites like this that only cater to the "love" and only when they're feeling it. That author and that site have been a godsend for me this past season; and you yourself said you went over there and "warned" her about what to write on HER blog and flat-out told her she was wrong when you know that everything about Comic Con is open to personal interpretation- whether you were there or not-terribly unprofessional, Alice. I, too, think you owe her an apology, but I doubt you will give her one.
And as for needing to be thick-skinned to blog-that is most certainly true-but when you tell people that your site was created for those who are "tired" of the "negative" comments, one has to wonder if you're thick-skinned enough-especial ly when you "banish" what you consider the worst offenders to "no man's land" on your site. Most of these offenders originally came because they simply disagreed with your opinion that the finale was well-received by most of the fandom. When you state opinions like this in your blogs, how is that supposed to make someone feel who disagrees with you completely and desires extensive change from the writers because of it? I think if you choose to continue to put opinions like this out there, you should expect intense disagreement to come with them-even though they may end up banished/delete d anyway.
lulzy!
# lulzy! 2010-08-07 11:57
"So, how many times can you type hypocrisy over and over again without screwing up. You seem to love that word. "

I do when it's applicable. :-)

But in point of fact, I used it twice in one post. However, I would be happy to use it again and include a definition since you seem to have trouble grasping its meaning.

From merriam-webster.com:

Main Entry: hyp·o·crite
Pronunciation: ?hi-p?-?krit
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ypocrite, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin hypocrita, from Greek hypokrit?s actor, hypocrite, from hypokrinesthai
Date: 13th century
1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings
— hypocrite adjective
Deborah
# Deborah 2010-08-07 13:15
Callie, I have read the entire Kripke thread (and how you can use the term "abysmal acting" in referring to Supernatural is beyond me, but that's another matter), and what I saw were a lot of people coming from the other website to tell Alice that she shouldn't have gone to that site to tell the other critic what to think and say on her own site. So what you say here about what Alice said here on her site seems at least a little hypocritical. I think even Alice was hard on herself in the Kripke thread with regard to what she said at the other site. What she said at that other site, word for word, is:

"You know, analysis is fine, assumptions are fine, and everyone in entitled to their opinions. However, I was actually in that press room and talked with everyone. They are all very excited about what’s coming up. Kripke was not apologetic or had any regrets. He was very pleased with the story he told. Jared and Jensen are both VERY excited about the new direction of the show and where their characters are. Jensen especially likes the idea of Dean being in this family situation. Sera Gamble is not fretting about fan reaction at all.

I accept that you’re bitter and disgruntled, it happens in fandoms, but your “conclusionsâ € about what was said at Comic Con couldn’t be more wrong. Let someone who was actually there read between the lines. It was pure love, from the press, from the fans, everywhere. Most are still very happy about their show. They are moving on, you need to as well."

This is all she said at the other site, and as I stated above, I don't see a problem with this post. She simply said that she thought the conclusions drawn by the other critic (who did not attend Comic Con) were wrong and then stated her own conclusions based on her personal experience at Comic Con. She didn't try to censor anyone or stifle discussion or tell anyone they couldn't make or post those conclusions, just that she thought they were wrong. I really don't get it. I've seen this type of post on dozens of sites dozens of times in the past without this sort of reaction. And now to hear you say these other things about Alice, her "standing" having plummeted and people on LJ "slamming her actions as unprofessional" ? What is that all that about? I really, really don't get it. And frankly, I don't want to. Anyone who wants to go to that extreme based on what I consider to be an inoffensive comment given at another site and given not to deride anyone but to describe her personal experience at Comic Con and the feelings she got from the participants she personally spoke with so that others would know how excited they are about Season 6, given in response to a post by the other critic giving a fairly dismal prediction about where Season 6 is headed based on her interpretation of the spoilers from Comic Con -- again, I don't get it.

And this just supports what I find so distasteful about some segments of fandom - how they can take a comment such as this and turn it into a major wank, and then basically crucify the person who made it. Tell me what is gained by that. It's simply hateful. And the fact that it is now being turned on a person as nice as Alice is simply not right. Explain to me why is this okay?

And lastly you say - "I’m not on here telling Alice and her commenters that their rose-tinted view of the spoilers we’ve heard is wrong am I?" Gee, when you put it like that, it certainly sounds like you are. But you are entitled to your opinion, and are entitled to post it. But so are we, and so is Alice.
Callie
# Callie 2010-08-07 13:48
"She didn't try to censor anyone or stifle discussion or tell anyone they couldn't make or post those conclusions, just that she thought they were wrong."

I disagree. Alice Jester told the critic that she “needed to move on.” That (to me if not to you) translates into telling that critic and everyone else who disliked the finale that they shouldn’t be airing those views – that they should "move on," in fact. Unless you translate an instruction to "move on" differently? Please do elaborate.

Alice Jester has no business telling that critic or those of us who agree with that critic to move on *on that critic’s own blog*. She is free to do whatever she likes here on her own blog, but when she hands out what she herself described as a "warning" to someone else, she is crossing a line. My opinion of course. And as long as Alice Jester continues telling other critics how they should think on their own blogs, then I fear she is going to have people who disagree with her coming here and telling her and her supporters how they should think. Like the person above, I think she brought it on herself.
elle
# elle 2010-08-07 13:55
First - Alice apologized for the term "troll" being used. She's the only one who has issued an apology so if we're going to beat that horse to death and back a few more times - that should be mentioned.

Second - I hadn't read the other blog or Alice's comment on it. Now, having read it, I'm really baffled as to the severe reaction to it. But besides that, the idea that the author of that blog is a "safe haven" for you and other fans is fine. That is why Alice made ONE COMMENT and then left. Certain individuals have come here and continued to post well beyond one strongly opinionated reply that ran two paragraphs - so no, I don't think that Alice "brought this on herself" - all the people that come here every year after comic con simply to rag on the show, the characters, etc. are well beyond the apparant transgression that Alice has been acccused of here. What's more is that you're upset that persons are upset their safe haven had been disturbed so they've come here and poisoned ours - how's that for hypocritical? And yes, I used the word poison because while there are many well articulated posts (including ones in this thread, even ones that aren't in suppport of Alice) there are more that are plain and simply, antagonistic. The people who are angry at the statement made on the other bloggers site have more than made their points clear - so if you really are only "doing to Alice what she did to your blogger" then it's time to leave the rest of us in peace.

And for the record, I never make sweeping statements about "all the fandom" because I cannot possibly know the preferences of every member of the whole fandom - though the comment that I was replying to used this collective terminology and that is the type of statement I referenced by the term "sweeping statement"

Finally - assuming that those who post in support of Alice have "rose-tinted view" of spoilers isn't very informed. There are a number of people NOT thrilled about the information on season six who are in fact regular contributors and visitors to this site.

Callie - in all honesty, I take the term "move on" to mean that, if you want to continue to enjoy the show, that can really only be done if you let go of what you considered disappointing/b ad about the past season and approach season six with fresh eyes. I don't see it as an order, but rather advice. I've certainly had to "move on" from things like Bela (disaster!) and the third Winchester brother (cliche!) - if I didn't get past these issues then I would have simply come to dislike the show and not continued to watch. To my way of thinking, it doesn't make sense to watch a show that you don't like. And no, I'm not telling people they should leave the fandom or the show, that's just an straight-forwar d thought on that particular issue.

Deborah - very well articulated points - I too was baffled by the slag against the acting on Supernatural.

Alice - you know that I love this site and will continue to frequent and contribute in a constructive manner, as I've no doubt the regulars of this site will also. Don't let a few nasty words bring you down! ;-)
Deborah
# Deborah 2010-08-07 14:21
Callie, I do interpret that comment differently, and apparently so does everyone else at the other site, because they certainly aren't listening to Alice there, or here. And as I said before, I even think Alice was wrong categorizing what she said there as a "warning" - a warning has to have a consequence. So you heed Alice's "warning" and move on, or what? She's going to do what? Again, I don't understand what I perceive to be a major over-reaction to this post. She said the cast and crew of Supernatural were moving on, and the rest of us needed to also. Well, even if she hadn't said that, isn't that what we are all going to have to do? What's the alternative?

I for one am looking forward to Season 6. I wish everyone was, but I realize that's not the case. I'll live with it, because whether you are looking forward to it or not, it's going to happen, so I'm fine.

You seem to have overlooked my request that you explain what is happening with regard to Alice on LJ, etc. I hope that means you can't defend it, because it is indefensible. IMHO, of course.
Callie
# Callie 2010-08-07 14:28
You continue to totally miss the point, Elle, but: whatever. Clearly you can’t be seen to be admitting that what this Alice Jester person did crossed a line.

"What's more is that you're upset that persons are upset their safe haven had been disturbed so they've come here and poisoned ours - how's that for hypocritical?"

Alice Jester *disturbed the other safe haven first*. And then expresses surprise and distaste that people are now here disturbing hers, as you are saying (and expressing yourself) here. Had she not gone there first, and issued her "warning" no one would be here discussing this. Come on, do you *seriously* support her right to issue "warnings"? Your continued support of her on this implies you do, and IMO it says something about you and about anyone here who thinks she has the right to *warn* people about how they should interpret spoilers. It's not nasty of people to call her out on the fact she thinks she has the authority to issue warnings – she doesn’t, and she deserves to be called out on it.
CAllie
# CAllie 2010-08-07 14:35
"explain what is happening with regard to Alice on LJ, etc. I hope that means you can't defend it, because it is indefensible. IMHO, of course."

I stumbled on this on a well known LJ SPN community. It's not up to me to defend that community or explain it. However the POV widely posted there, which was that Alice Jester was wrong to tell another critic how to think on her own site, and then to describe it as a "warning to be more careful" here on her own site, is eminently defensible (IMHO of course) and I am here defending it (and my right to strongly dislike the finale, like a whole lot of other fans do) - as are plenty of other people.
elle2
# elle2 2010-08-07 15:05
Alice,

I support you.

Someone on another thread commented about the fact that I only come to this site to participate with the fandom and that in essence that's why I was 'out of touch' with how negative many people were to Swan Song. (That's paraphrased by me)

Well, I really don't care what anyone's thoughts are on Swan Song or anything else to do with Supernatural. Reading the positive is relaxing, reading the negative is depressing and, since I have no influence on the show, what does it benefit me to read what people didn't like; it doesn't.

Why anyone cares that I don't go other places and 'learn' how negative many are to an episode or a season or the spoilers or anything to do with Supernatural baffles me. Either someone else is giving me way too much credit for what I can do for them or else they're giving themselves way too much credit for their thoughts; their thoughts are their own just as mine are well, mind.

I've read Alice's comments on the other blog and I'm not surprised at the controversy. Someone once took a simple comment I made and blew it all out proportion and assigned me thoughts and actions that were never anywhere in my comment. That's what the written word will do, people who read it color it with their own perceptions and emotions and it lives and breathes from there.

Anyone remember the telephone game? It's the same premise. By the time the words come back to the originator they're completely unlike what they were at the beginning.

So what if Alice 'warned' someone. So what if Alice told someone not to take things out of context and distort. What does anyone care? Further, I find it so amusing that the vocal, negative minority is so busy and pleased with themselves shouting down everyone and everything that when they get a little taste of their own medicine they can't take it. Too bad.

Like Alice, I left another fandom because I was the one with the poisonous posts. I spewed negativity and insults against another show, its writers and one of its actors ad nauseum; frankly I'm ashamed. It did nothing to change the direction of the show, nor did it make me feel any better and it certainly was no joy to those who read it.

I finally realized what I was doing when someone had the courage to post in response to my comments and basically say that they always skipped over my posts because they were so noxious and they couldn't understand why I even bothered watching a show I obviously could no longer stand. They were right. I stopped watching. I moved on. The show had moved on from its original intent and direction and went in a way I couldn't stand, rather than stay and be miserable and spread the misery, I left. I'm happier for it.

I'm amazed to read that some 'fans' don't even watch the show anymore, they simply read the comments about the episode and then decide whether or not to watch it on their TiVO...really? And I'm categorized as a 'mindless worshipper' because I praise the show? Really. I actually watch it and make up my own mind whether I liked it or not.

On those episodes I have reviewed or in articles that I talk about episodes I always mix what worked for me and what didn't. Like Sam, I have a mind and I use it. Apparently some.... (you can fill in the blank, you will anyway.)

Whenever someone creates something that is positive and fun and uplifting and always looking on the bright side there will be that vocal minority that loves misery, loves to spread misery and is never satisfied unless they can spread it as far and as fast as possible and especially until they can tear down anything and anyone that is positive. Alice, keep up the good work on TWFB, it's a gem in a sea of mud and mudslingers.

BTW, if you're offended that I called you a mudslinger, that's because you attribute yourself to be a mudslinger because I called no one a mudslinger I simply referred to there being mudslingers out there in the fandom...no one can prove me wrong either.

So revile away, you will anyway.
Laurel F.
# Laurel F. 2010-08-07 15:14
I have been on the Innsmouth Free Press site on which Alice commented a couple times, and I have to say I am not at all a fan of whomever writes for it, and as such haven't visited there in a long time. I dislike her opinions and her way of speaking. That said, I haven't bashed her (perhaps in my own head, but that's neither here nor there), because, much as I may not like what she says, she does have the right to say it. Which is the reason I didn't see Alice's comment until it was quoted above.

And I, too, cannot fathom why it's gotten such backlash. Is it because Alice is a professional blogger? Or because more and more it seems that those who like Swan Song, etc. are becoming the people against the grain? Hell if I know. I saw absolutely nothing in Alice's comment that warrants this vitriol. It's irrefutably eons nicer than a lot of crap this fandom says, actually. It was short, to the point, and expressed her opinion without resorting to petty abuse.

As for her saying the writer at that site needs to move on, I hardly took that as a "warning." Rather, as Elle said, that she was just saying Supernatural is going ahead whether or not you liked last season or its finale, and presumably everyone's already given their opinions or rants, so we should just put it behind us. But clearly her attempt at getting people to calm down and make sites a little less in the trenches is a ridiculously awful idea.

Personally, I see zero difference between Alice commenting on another blog and some random fan commenting on some random LJ user's journal. Tell me the difference, please, because I'm not seeing it.

"Alice Jester *disturbed the other safe haven first*."

Um. Okay...could you be any more childish? So she posted an opposing viewpoint on your precious safe haven. Boo hoo. People have done that for AGES. Many on Alice's own site. Have Alice and the other blogger exchanged said opposing viewpoints before? Evidently not. But that doesn't mean they're not allowed. Alice didn't tell her what to think, she suggested that it'd make everything much more pleasant if people just accepted what went down and looked instead to the future. But apparently she overstepped her bounds and should've let the haters among haters (side note: you don't wish to be called that, yet when all you say is bad words about the show and/or this last season, you epitomize the word) spread.

Here's a novel thought: If you don't like what you're reading, just leave. Do what Alice did if you really want: Say your piece, then go away.
feeling a little testy
# feeling a little testy 2010-08-07 15:42
I have to shake my head a little at the idea that people are comparing this site and Alice with the "critic" from Innsmouth Free Press.

Callie, I'm not sure quoting stuff from an anonymous hate meme is the way to support your argument. Just saying.

I'm not sure how much Alice knows about Innsmouth Free Press (and how the blogger sees the show), but my guess is not much. If she did I highly doubt she would have even clicked on the link.
elle
# elle 2010-08-07 15:50
Callie – it seems it is you who missed my point entirely. I at no point said that anyone had the right to issue warnings to anyone else – that is your interpretation of my comments. I’m not going to get into arguing about issuing warnings, etc. I can fully appreciate that you feel Alice disturbed the other safe haven first – whether or not I agree with that isn’t the point. What I was trying to illustrate was that Alice said her piece and then *left that website*. If the argument is being made that individuals who came here from that site have come here to do to Alice what they believe she did to them, mission accomplished. She said her piece on their site, people from that site have said their piece on this site – that should be the end of it. But it isn’t. It is being drawn out and devolved from simply expressing opinion to attacking the integrity of a person.

If you truly were upset by Alice’s comments – that’s fine, it’s been expressed – go back to your “safe haven” and leave us with ours. Alice posted once and hasn’t continued to poke at that site whereas others who call/imply all sorts of things about Alice (and about the rest of her regular contributors for that matter) because of one comment are being completely hypocritical by posting multiple times ongoing about that one comment. I have to echo the sound words of Laurel F.: “Say your piece, then go away.” I haven’t gone over to that blog and slammed the author, the members, etc. But you’ve come here and done that to us.
As Elle2 pointed out, some posters who migrated from that other blog have even begun to drag the regular people here into the mud by putting words in people’s mouths and insinuating that because we support Alice it must mean such-and-such about our characters, etc.

Furthermore, I didn’t say people who are “calling her out on the fact that she thinks she has the authority to issue warnings” are being nasty. Don’t put words in my mouth. There are comments (and for the record, I didn’t previously consider your comments among them – your points, for the most part, have been well vocalized) that have been out and out mean and unneeded.

Finally, supporting someone doesn’t necessarily mean you have to agree with them in all aspects (nor am I saying I disagree either – I am not going to further the argument by taking sides over terminology because my honest opinion is that the term “warning” was probably not the correct term and it is being interpreted in a wildly different way than Alice intended IMO. I took that to be cautioning against inferring something from second or third hand information when you weren’t actually present – interpreting spoilers anyway you want is up to the individual and if you look at the comments and threads on our site with the interviews and info that Alice brought back from comic con, you’ll see that is what has happened, but it happened civilly and without mudslinging, for the most part).

There are several contributing authors on this site and often we have different interpretations of episodes, characters etc. but I do support them as fellow fans and writers and appreciate their points and am capable of reflecting on their points without changing my opinion.

My goal in commenting is not to insight further arguing, I simply believe we should all return to our respective corners and get on with life. If you hate the WFB that much, don’t come. Just don’t. I won’t pee in your sandbox, please extend the same courtesy.
magichappening
# magichappening 2010-08-07 16:22
Holy crap. I completely missed this whole controversy as have been reading sparingly recently to limit spoilers.

I just wanted to say that I love this show and I love this site. Alice, hang in there mate!

To those who have a problem with this site and Alice, I agree with those who have spoken up in support of both above. It's time to leave the rest of us in peace. Really. You have said your piece, now please go away. Those of us who love the site would be immensely grateful if you would return from whence you came.
feeling testy too
# feeling testy too 2010-08-07 16:26
Just quoting someone upthread:

I'm not sure how much Alice knows about Innsmouth Free Press (and how the blogger sees the show), but my guess is not much. If she did I highly doubt she would have even clicked on the link.

Alice must have known plenty about her to go there in the first place surely? And the fact Alice left a link to her own website says a lot. I didn't hate the finale though I didn't think it was that good either, but I agree with everyone who says what Alice did was totally out of order. If she didn't want people here saying so she shouldn't have linked her comment to her website. I think she did because she knew she'd get some traffic here out of it but maybe she should stay in her 'respective corner' from now on, huh? Like Elle (above) is suggesting. Especially since that is what all her supporters seem to be telling her detractors to do (see Elle, above). Same rule should apply to her: seems logical and fair to me.
Amelia
# Amelia 2010-08-07 16:41
"I can't believe you would think I'm actually telling people what to do. Honest, is that possible?"

Yes, it's possible, because you did it. It just didn't get you anywhere, because you don't have the power of enforcement.
Laurel F.
# Laurel F. 2010-08-07 16:55
"I think she did because she knew she'd get some traffic here out of it but maybe she should stay in her 'respective corner' from now on, huh? Like Elle (above) is suggesting. Especially since that is what all her supporters seem to be telling her detractors to do (see Elle, above). Same rule should apply to her: seems logical and fair to me."

Not sure if you've been reading this whole controversy, testy. Or, if you have, you're grossly misinterpreting it (as has been the norm, apparently).

Alice did not stay there and bitch about things repeatedly, nor did she personally attack the other blogger. She said her opinion, then left. One post, that's it. Unlike most of you here, who keep posting and saying the same things over and over. You're effectively telling Alice she can't have her own opinion, can't discuss it on other people's sites, which is absurd.

To head you off, there are many people on this site who disliked the finale and season five, and yet they're willing to discuss in a calm manner their thoughts with people who, contrarily, loved the finale and season five.

So Alice said her opinion on another site. Big deal. Y'all are welcome to, too. But say your opinion and then leave, if all you're going to do is attack and make the situation worse. It does no good to anyone. Alice strayed from her "corner" to make one post advising the blogger that perhaps after months and months she should just accept the finale and what happened, then returned. You, on the other hand, are doing exactly what you're accusing her of.

I was going to refrain, but I think now is an excellent time to say: Hypocrite.
Jasminka
# Jasminka 2010-08-07 17:04
I can hardly believe what's happening here. I didn't really heed the fair warning you mentioned, Alice, since, as a regular writer to this site, it is my view that I share the responsibility.

Of course I stand by Alice Jester.

She's our editor-in-chief here and as an author who exposes herself to the public with every article that is posted here I feel to be in good hands and I have learned to trust my editor without condition.

If you look to the 'real' world of newspapers etc - a good editor protects his paper (site) and his writers. That's what Alice does for us here.

In the realm of press, letters to a paper are edited, too, or not even published. From what I've read above and elsewhere, I doubt that some of the comments would have ever seen the print shop.

We, who write about the show, feel safe here, not only because we have a forum to express our thoughts, but also because - normally - it is a forum that allows respectful discussions. We sometimes argue over this or that, but usually there are no personal attacks. I have appreciated that from day one.

For us writers and for many visitors to the site, Alice Jester has provided a place to feel good at, a place I love coming to. We love diverse opinions - they are the food my brain feeds on. How boring would the world be if we all thought or liked the same? But there are limits. Attacking one another on a level that's really embarrassing, tactless and/or insolent is not the language of this site in general nor of its writers.

There are other sites where rants are commonplace and I don't venture there anymore. That's my personal choice, of course. Chacun à son gout. I don't feel comfortable there.

I hope that we will find the respectful dealings I cherish again. Thank you, Alice, for being the kind of editor and site-administra tor I have learned to respect, trust, feel protected by. Apart from having earned a lot of affection for you as a person, I will always support what you do here for all of us who like coming to The Winchester Family Business.

Thank you, Jas
elle
# elle 2010-08-07 17:05
Feeling Testy too: I agree the same rules should apply to all. Which was my whole point. Everyone has said their piece and we should all be able to move on. Again, I feel my point is being misconstrued so I'll try again:

Alice said her piece in ONE COMMENT and then left.

People upset by Alice's ONE COMMENT have now expressed their upset in SEVERAL COMMENTS.

In summary - Alice did leave that corner, others have not left this corner. Fair would be everyone sayings their piece (which they have).

I need to be very clear - I am not suggesting that people shouldn't go to other sites and shouldn't be able to comment (respectfully, civilly) on articles, etc. Nor am I going to cede that Alice was out of line for reading and responding to another article. The simple point I have been trying to get across is that she didn't like that site so after saying her piece she left and truly, this is what I believe we should all be doing - it's the mature thing to do. If I don't like a movie - I'm not going to go to the theatre and continue to see it over and over just so I can trash it. It's a waste of energy.

Regardless of who is right or wrong in going to that other site and commenting, the fact remains that I didn't go and post anything on that other article, nor did many of the regular visitors here and yet were are also suffering for your upset and that is certainly not fair, is it? What you didn't like you've now turned around and done to us.

If my point isn't clear after this, then I'm out of words to explain it rationally. But please don't spin my words into some sarcastic and negative comment - honestly, I would just like the peace to be restored here.

Jas - great post! Glad to have a few more level heads commenting.

Laurel F. - thank you for reading my point as it was intended!

The fact that Alice strives to maintain a clean and friendly environment and to protect the regular visitors/writer s here says everything I need to know. I support Alice and this site so I have to say this: back off. Get over it. Move on.
MelK
# MelK 2010-08-07 17:31
Pleased to see Alice has allowed the debate to continue and reinstated the deleted comments though I do think the insults in the comments coming from the other side (on the other thread) should be snipped if she does want to appear unbiased.

Slight eye-roll at the title used: For those pushing controversy. Really? Alice herself started this controversy. And termed it a warning.
Laurel F.
# Laurel F. 2010-08-07 17:38
"Slight eye-roll at the title used: For those pushing controversy. Really? Alice herself started this controversy."

Actually, she didn't. She posted one comment, one opinion, on another blogger's site and left it be. Other people with some ridiculous grudge or penchant for blowing things way out of proportion made it a controversy. If you're going to assign blame, at least assign it correctly. Alice is not that person to blame here.
lulzy!
# lulzy! 2010-08-07 19:17
"Actually, she didn't. She posted one comment, one opinion, on another blogger's site and left it be. "

No she posted that one comment then came over to her own site and crowed about how she had issued a warning to the other blogger. She says she knew that she was opening a can of worms so she shouldn't be surprised when the worms clog up her bandwidth for a bit. It just gives her website more hits anyway so it's a win for her overall.

"And I, too, cannot fathom why it's gotten such backlash. Is it because Alice is a professional blogger?"

"Personally, I see zero difference between Alice commenting on another blog and some random fan commenting on some random LJ user's journal. "

These two comments are completely contradictory. She is either a "professional" or she's just a "random fan." If she is going to use her status as a "professional" to give her opinion more weight then when she throws that weight around, the backlash will be equivalently heavier. If you claim to be a professional, you are held to higher standards and if you don't act like one, you're going to get called on it. It's really not that complicated.
MelK
# MelK 2010-08-07 19:31
"Alice is not that person to blame here."

ROFLMAO. I for one wouldn't have posted here had she not gone there first. So she's to blame for me being here. Whitewash it as much as you like, but she started it. Like a few other people here have asked what gives her the right to "warn" other critics?
elle
# elle 2010-08-07 19:31
Sorry, lulzy!, but Alice hardly "crowed" about the comment here - she addressed it only when others from that site brought it up. If you are refering to this particular address and forum, again it was only created in response to the comments from others. It isn't as though Alice commented on that blog and then ran over here and said "hey guys, check out how I went and "warned" this blogger, aren't I awesome?"


As for those two comments being contradictory: the first point was wondering if it is because Alice puts her name out there and is a professional blogger that she has become a target for such backlash. The second point is saying that perhaps if she was a random fan without a professional website, people wouldn't have targetted her in this manner.

Finally, there is a difference between disagreeing with an opinion and attacking the person themselves. Further the "can of worms" Alice referenced is that by posting Kripke's comments she knew people would have polarizng comments. The "can of worms" was not her comment on that blog. Let's try and keep our facts straight - I too can play comment mix and match to make people look bad, but it isn't really in good taste.

And no, Alice isn't to blame here - it the people who refuse to let the issue go. Once again, she made ONE comment and others have made MULTIPLE comments to further fan the flames of controversy.
Laurel F.
# Laurel F. 2010-08-07 19:43
"ROFLMAO. I for one wouldn't have posted here had she not gone there first. So she's to blame for me being here."

Clearly she is more powerful than I thought, because she *made* you come here! Wow. So you have no control over your own actions? You saw her comment (a SINGLE comment, mind you) and were immediately drawn to her site? Give me a break.

YOU came here. YOU came to prattle on about how Alice is such a horrible person and doesn't deserve to be on the internet, and *obviously* you're the one taking the higher ground. If you really were wanting to make yourself out to be the better person, you wouldn't have commented at all. Or you would've done as Alice did, make one single comment and then go back to your safe haven.

Have your opinion, but don't try to make it sound like Alice held you at gunpoint and brought you to her site and forced you to spew hate.
Deborah
# Deborah 2010-08-07 20:08
I think I want to make one thing clear, about the difference I see between this other site's "safe haven" and Alice's "safe haven." As best I can tell, based on the comments I read there and the ones I read here from the regular posters at the other site, apparently that site is considered a safe haven for people who are not happy with the direction the show has taken, and no opposite opinion appears to be welcome. The "safe haven" of Alice's site is not that way. Here, all and differing opinions are welcome (and have certainly been expressed) -- this site is a "haven" where conflicting opinions can be expressed without fear of being attacked or treated with disrespect because that opinion was expressed. If anyone shut down discussion at that other site, it certainly wasn't Alice.

So please, if anyone who has found Alice's site for the first time because of this situation wants to visit again and express your opinion on any article here, or the show in general as we move into the new season, you are welcome and your right to express that opinion will be respected without others jumping all over you for giving it. If you would rather play in the other safe haven where apparently a dissenting word is not welcome, I for one will defend your right to do so and promise to never visit there again.
MelK
# MelK 2010-08-07 20:58
"YOU came to prattle on about how Alice is such a horrible person and doesn't deserve to be on the internet"

Please point out exactly where I said that. In fact I haven't. I’ve said it was poor form to hand out orders to move on to someone else, on their website (it was). How would Alice Jester like it if that critic came here and told her to accept that the finale was crap and move on? She wouldn't. I've also said that all of fandom is aware of her bias (they are) so she might as well stop claiming to be bi-bro. And pointed out that despite her claims to be unbiased she hasn't deleted any of the insults being hurled by your side in this discussion (she hasn't). All simple facts.

I haven't even harshed your collective squee over the finale (check the other thread for proof) and am more than happy to respect your desire that I (and the rest of fans who disliked it) do that elsewhere. But if people like Alice Jester butt in to harsh my unsquee on those other forums, then I reserve the right to butt in here and harsh her squee.
trina
# trina 2010-08-07 21:17
You know, most of the time fandom is fun. And then this crap goes on. The Winchester Family Business is a respected fan site. Alice Jester gets exclusives with the creators and is sent pre-screeners by the CW. The site as a whole is bi-bro and bashing of either side is discouraged (and don't even think about bringing the actors into it). Heck, she actually was in the press room at comic con.

Can we say the same for Innsmouth Free Press?
elle2
# elle2 2010-08-07 21:36
I'm impressed MelK..."all of fandom is aware of her bias (they are)" Really? I mean, you've actually gone and talked to "all of fandom" and gotten a consensus? Wow.

Alice may have a bias towards Sam...so what. I have a bias towards Dean...so what.

This site never has said that one brother is better than the other, none of the writers here (of which I am one) has ever talked up one brother while running down the other.

And now that you have butted in and harshed your squee on this site...many, many, many times...can you please leave.

I've never been to "your" site and harshed my squee and while Alice apparently disturbed you one time, you've disturbed here for long enough. Please go away and harsh your squee -- or unsquee or whatever and don't return.
Callie
# Callie 2010-08-07 21:40
Trina: none of that gives Alice a free pass. She acted unprofessionall y in my opinion – and apparently in the opinion of a lot of other people too. And what bearing does being in the press room at ComicCon have on anything at all? IMO it actually makes her less likely to be balanced in her views since the event was set up to put a positive spin on it all and no one there is remotely likely to express misgivings. In fact someone trawling through the panels online may well be more likely to come up with a less "manufactured" take on things.

The heart of the matter is this: we all have the right to interpret spoilers how we like and to express our opinions. Alice doesn't have the right to tell the other blogger or anyone else that they are wrong, and moreover to do it on their blog - she just doesn't, and it's as simple as that. She can shout it to the high heavens here on her blog and no one who isn't already predisposed to agree with her will notice, since it's pretty obvious the people who have taken most issue with this are on the other side of fandom (and some of them have said they've never even heard of her before now). It was a mistake to take it elsewhere, and an even bigger mistake to use the term "warning" – I can't believe she did use it. actually. She has brought this shit-storm on herself - but having read through all of this, I also am wondering why she posted a link back here if it wasn't to get click throughs.
elle
# elle 2010-08-07 21:54
I wasn't polled and neither was my neighbour who also loves Supernatural, so I guess it was a random sampling?
Well said, elle2. :-)
Laurel F.
# Laurel F. 2010-08-07 22:01
"Please point out exactly where I said that. In fact I haven't. I’ve said it was poor form to hand out orders to move on to someone else, on their website (it was)."

I suppose in regards to the saying Alice is a horrible person I was referring to "you" in the sense of all of the negative posters on this entry, not necessarily you in specific. But my words still stand: You came here of your own accord. Alice didn't *make* you.

"How would Alice Jester like it if that critic came here and told her to accept that the finale was crap and move on? She wouldn't. I've also said that all of fandom is aware of her bias (they are) so she might as well stop claiming to be bi-bro. And pointed out that despite her claims to be unbiased she hasn't deleted any of the insults being hurled by your side in this discussion (she hasn't). All simple facts."

Except...she doesn't hate the finale. So that part of your argument is invalid. And so what if she has a favorite brother? I like Sam a little more than Dean, too, but that doesn't mean I don't adore him as well. I'm not bashing him, so what does it matter?

I stand by everything I've said. There's no point to delete the comments. And if she did, well, that's her prerogative. I wouldn't take offense. It is her site after all, and like I said earlier, she's keeping the peace to the best of her ability.

"But if people like Alice Jester butt in to harsh my unsquee on those other forums, then I reserve the right to butt in here and harsh her squee."

Certainly you are. Except for the fact that you've already done it countless times. Alice managed to convey everything she wanted to to the other blogger in one post. Why can't you do the same? Leave us to our peaceful site and you to your thriving-in-neg ativity one? Win-win for everyone.
MelK
# MelK 2010-08-08 10:03
""How would Alice Jester like it ***if that critic came here and told her to accept that the finale was crap and move on? She wouldn't."***

Laurel, you seem to have ignored my point (quoted and emphasized above) above. Any thoughts? IMO Alice Jester wouldn't like it one bit if the other critic had done that, and you'd all be on here (and at the other person's blog) frothing at the mouth over it if she had.

And naturally you wouldn't take offense at the fact she has left comments insulting my side of this discussion. In doing so she is hardly trying her best to keep the peace.
KatieB
# KatieB 2010-08-08 11:07
I think it’s nice that some of fandom are being positive about the spoilers and the direction the show is taking. I'm pretty positive about some of it myself (though I reserve the right to hate Swan Song). But the real irony in all of this is that when it actually starts airing and Sam is coming over as an unfeeling monster (which he will according to those spoilers) it’s Alice and her contingent who will be shrieking the loudest about the direction the show is taking and how meen they are all being to little Sammy, as opposed to circle jerking about it. And that will be really amusing. :-)
Bevie
# Bevie 2010-08-08 12:25
There are plenty of critics coming here telling Alice and the rest of us who loved it, that the finale was crap. Just read the posts.

So many bare-faced lies. If Alice is biased it is because she loves Supernatural as do our regular posters. That is some kind of crime now? We should be pilloried because we love a TV show? We are ALL Sam/girls? What absolute crap! If you are all Dean/girls Dean himself would be ashamed of you.

It's nice to be hated because I refuse to join in on the hate fest that seems to be the be all and end all of these vitriolic posts. For each of the well thought out criticisms there are ten that are merely just plain nasty attacks.

Actually, right about now they are becoming amusing to me as I can imagine them relishing their unhappiness and fuelling each other to greater nastiness.

The finale is over. To you it was crap. To most of us here it was not. I loved it. Live with that!

You have no proof of "most fans hated it". A small vocal majority of internet fans hated it and won't let it go.
If you hated it, good for you! I loved it, so leave me free to have my own opinion as you keep going on about free speech and censoring and stuff. The only way I can censor you is by refusing to read any more of the mean postings.

You do hate to be insulted, but you seem to have no objections to doing the insulting yourself. Perhaps you are too blind to see that that is what you are doing.

Much love to all of you, bye bye!
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2010-08-08 12:48
Sam, an unfeeling monster...’ Really? Emotionally cold? Yes. Distant? Yes. An unwillingness to reform close bonds to others? Yep. A monster? I don’t think so.

I also think most people, Alice included, would be ok with ‘cold’ Sam as it is a direct emotional response to his time in hell. It acknowledges that things were pretty bad for him down there and switching off his emotions is the only way he can cope with being back topside. It’s if Sam came back from hell full of happiness and the joys of spring that I feel most viewers would be ticked; not only would it be totally unrealistic but it would completely brush aside everything Sam had to endure in hell. ‘Oh look, he’s fine, not traumatised at all. Hell must have been a cakewalk for him’ If Sam walked out of hell unscathed? Now THAT, I would be shrieking loudly about.

I'm good with cold Sam because I think cold Sam will also be damn interesting Sam as it's such a contrast to the way the guy usually is. I hope I'm not alone in that sentiment...

C'mon guys, lets stop the fussin' and the fuedin'. It's doing no-one any good. You lucky sods are less than SEVEN tiny weeks away from Season 6. Be happy about that!! Live and let die! Onwards and upwards!
trina
# trina 2010-08-08 14:22
KatieB

Bring on the cold, unfeeling Sam!! I don't think that is quite what we will see, but that is my favorite kind of Sam.
Laurel F.
# Laurel F. 2010-08-08 14:36
MelK - I did reply to your point:

"Except...she doesn't hate the finale. So that part of your argument is invalid."

The other critic wouldn't come on here and tell her she's crap for hating the finale, because she didn't hate it. She loved it. And besides, even if the other critic wanted to come over here and tell Alice she's crap for enjoying the finale, it wouldn't be anything different. Y'all have filled and overstepped the hate quota for her.
Jasminka
# Jasminka 2010-08-08 14:49
Tim The Enchanter - I am thoroughly enchanted by your comment, thank you! It is my thought exactly that a 'fine, not traumatized' Sam would just be highly illogical from a psychological point of view.

And you are not alone in regarding that kind of development of Sam to be damn interesting. Plus- it's going to give Jared Padalecki some fine acting options. I think it could be a challenge acting-wise for both actors, and who wouldn't like to see that?

Please don't stop coming back to this site with your level-headed and wonderfully wry comments!
Cheers, Jas
MelK
# MelK 2010-08-08 18:12
"The other critic wouldn't come on here and tell her she's crap for hating the finale, because she didn't hate it. She loved it."

You seem to be having *extreme difficulty grasping my point Laurel, which is that Alice Jester wouldn’t like if the other critic came on here and posted a *differing* view from Alice's (as Alice did on the other critic's blog): ie, that Alice was "wrong" and that the finale was crap and that Alice should accept that and move on. And then went back to her own website and grandly announced that she had just "warned" Alice to be more "careful" in how she interpreted things from now on.

That is what Alice did to the other critic. Would Alice like that if the other critic did it to her? I think not. And you wouldn't like it either.

But please do feel free to (deliberately?) misinterpret me as you see fit.
marie-a
# marie-a 2010-08-08 18:33
I came here and was surprise by the comments. I have posted here only two or three times, I don't know (mainly because I make too much mistakes in english) but I want to say something. I come here because Alice make a good site, with clever topic and clever people. On top of that, I appreciate the respect about thoughts of the people and the serenity I feel. I know the dark side of the fandom (and yes, I assume that). I am an obsessed fan of supernatural, and I can tell that I read lot of things. I know this "hate with passion". I don't speak most of the time but I've already seen that.
People, don't forget one thing, respect is the fine line between a debate and a fight, somewhere about constructive ideas and destructive ones. Besides, I am surprised of this hate for the finale. I took it as it was, the vision of an artist about his creative world, and I am not the creator of the show, so I accept this point of view. Even if I have some issues about Supernatural, it's still an amazing experience to see it, and I keep on thanking Eric Kripke for the work he's done. I cried during this finale, like a child, I think I understand what was the message. It was a moving farewell for a man who love all the fan, and respect us, it was the story he always told us : two brothers against their destinies, redemption and freedom. A tv show like no other else. Thank Kripke to share it with us.
I can't write more, It's exhausting to write in another language (I would have to prepare that !) but Alice, if you read that, I also want to thank you for you work, I read gripping texts and I want to do it again. I hope the next article will be coming soon and I will be please to comment it. big hug from France.
Laurel F.
# Laurel F. 2010-08-08 18:47
MelK - I get your argument, I do. I still think it's invalid. No one has said or pretended that the other blogger liked having another point of view suggested (which, in my opinion, is ridiculously stupid; there's no harm in someone simply presenting a differing point of view in ONE COMMENT). No one likes being told they're wrong.

The issue here is that people seem to think Alice told the other blogger what to think. She didn't. She merely said that since the finale aired months and months ago, it might be advisable to move on. That was nothing more than a suggestion, and she left after that one comment. However, you and others have chosen to attack Alice in multiple comments. Now, tell me which has the higher decorum.

But you know what? It's useless trying to communicate with you, since you've obviously not grasped what the real controversy is. So I'm done. I think you and others of your viewpoint are way out of line, but there's nothing I can do about it. Go on hating if you want, but I'm done. I suggest you do the same.

Oh, oops. I forgot. Suggestions to you are contraband.
elle2
# elle2 2010-08-08 18:48
Hi, Marie-A,

First off, you did a great job with your English. As someone who cannot write in another language (I used to be able to in Spanish in a limited way) I really appreciate your effort.

Fear not, more articles are coming. I've got at least five more to get out before the new season starts and I'm in process on all of them.

I truly appreciate your words about the finale:

"I took it as it was, the vision of an artist about his creative world." Amen. That sums up how I approach the show and while I acknowledge that some do not or cannot approach the show in that manner -- as I've often stated, I'm a passenger on this adventure called Supernatural and I can hop off whenever I want to -- I want to give a big hello and hug from a fellow fan who approaches the show as you do.

Enjoy the site, there's plenty of love and fun for Supernatural. And thank you very much for the compliment to the site and the clever people on the site, I didn't create it but Alice lets me contribute here as often as I like.
elle
# elle 2010-08-08 20:51
Laurel F. - I agree with you 100%. The debate issue isn't whether the other blogger didn't like Alice posting a different opinion, the issue (for me anyways) is that the comment Alice made and the extreme infestation of hate-filled comments that have flooded WFB are two entirely different things. But, Laurel, the people making those nasty comments choose to ignore that hypocritcal element in their own logic.

KatieB - let me just say that Alice and her "contingent" aren't the group who freaks out about the direction of a character. Express opinions of dislike? Certainly but always with clear explanations and without trashing for the sake of trashing. Furthermore as a member of the "contingent" we don't "shriek" - in fact, one of the reasons Alice created this site was because she wanted a place free of those extremes and nastiness in the online fandom - Alice tries valiantly to keep this site clean from the Sam/Dean-haters who put some characters down to bring their prefered character up on a pedestal. Ironically, it is this attempt on Alice's part that has been accused of being "censorship" - I suggest reading through the site and the articles - a number of us here have Dean-leanings and yes, some of us have Sam-leanings - all of which are welcome here. I have yet to read an article on this site about "how mean they are being to poor Sammy" or, visa versa with Dean. Certainly, there have been articles that invite discussion on the direction a character has been taken during the season, but not the way you're making it sound.

Marie-A, welcome and thank you for your level-headed comments. As elle2 stated, we're usually way less negative what you're witnessing here. I hope you'll stick around and see what we're all about through out season 6!
Bethany!
# Bethany! 2010-08-09 09:40
I hate discussions like this. We all watch the same show, we like some things we hate others and we all get something different out of the show ... that is a GOOD thing!

mysticpeach - I couldn't agree more. I also have retreated mostly out of fandom because of the vitriol, hate and spite that some fans were directing at each other which was ruining my enjoyment of the show. But I do participate on other sites and I am aware of what is going on in fandom in general and just because this site promotes careful considered discussion and is seen by some as a "safe haven" doesn't mean that it is either out of touch or close minded. I often come here because the articles and comments are thoughtful and rational and that people with different opinions of the show could discuss without the nastiness that prevails at other sites.

In regards to the "move on comment" my personal take (yeah you're all dying to hear it) is that Alice was expressing an opinion I have often expressed myself that if you don't like the show that it is making you so miserable or so angry why are you still watching? Surely the logical thing, if the show upsets you so much, is to stop watching. Few things are worth this much anger and hate... a TV show isn't one of them.

Personally I love this site and I think Alice does a wonderful job of keeping that fine line between letting people express themselves and keeping things inoffensive. You don't like how things are run here fair enough, go somewhere where you do. As Jasminka said all websites monitor posts and comments all sites tend to remove the most abusive and/or offensive ones. This is a common practice I don't see what there is to get up in arms about.

Final comment, I’m not sure who said it but "the majority of fans hated the show and the finale" really? I have seen nothing to back this up. The majority of fans I’ve spoken to have enjoyed this season but i'm aware that I haven't spoken to "all of fandom" my flist isn't that big. Can't we just say yes we had our pet hates and our niggles but that's par for the course. Some people didn't like it, fair enough but please stop with the generalisations . I don't speak for you and you don't speak for me.

I'm not a s*** minion or a sheep but Alice I love the site and I like how it's run, you always give us a chance to express our opinions even if you personally don't agree; which is, I'm guessing what this post is about, allowing us to discuss what’s happened. I love that you do this and I'm only sorry that this has created personal attacks on you. Hopefully this will die down quickly, another flash in the pan over reaction, and we can go back to doing what we do best here; talking about the show we love, sharing what we love about it and talking about what we don't.
Alice, Jasminka, Elle, Elle2, Laurel F and all the other regulars (sorry if I forgot anyone I’m at work and typing quickly so I won't be caught) can't wait to discuss and share the new season with you all.

P.S. Alice, you going to publish the article I wrote about how I think John Winchester was a good father and watch the comment board explode!?!
;-)
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2010-08-09 12:32
I must say this is the only website I’ve been on where ‘censorship†™ means giving those who disagree with you their own forum. May I be pedantic and make a few points?

Firstly, in order to label someone a hypocrite, hypocrisy needs to be a characteristic, something inherent that is evident to people because it is exposed on a regular basis in a variety of different contexts. Based on the evidence available, that does not appear to be the case here. The point would have worked better if it had read ‘Alice made a statement that could be deemed hypocritical.†™ However, to say Alice IS a hypocrite is clearly a misnomer.

Secondly, Alice used the word ‘need’ in her statement ‘You need to move on’. That is not a demand, it is not telling someone what to do. The above statement would generally be perceived as giving advice, something the recipient MAY take on board if they wish because it could be beneficial to them. Nothing at all wrong with that.

Finally, to suggest that the only reason people support Alice is because she is a Sam fan and we (We?? I don’t remember filling in that survey) are Sam fans is completely immature. From what I've read on this site, the posters here are intelligent, educated and well capable of making up their own minds. The reason the argument did not get support is because it is a weak argument based on little evidence.

It does however strike me that at some stage this whole thing became less about Alices alleged wrongdoings and became more of a witch-hunt. A comment by lulzy! on 7th August epitomises this. ‘Alice emailing you privately wouldn’t expose your hypocrisy'. Why do you feel it's more important for the public to think you're right than the person you are accusing. If you truly believed your argument had merit, why would you feel the need to ‘expose’ her in public? Trying to get the masses to row in behind you does not strengthen an argument, it only makes it popular (and that won’t get you anything in a court of law).

I don’t know the first thing about Alice and I don’t really want to know either (no offense Alice). She is a Sam fan? Really? Ok well, good for her but big freaking deal. She is not so blinkered about the guy that it reflects in her articles. It doesn't bother me if Alice goes to bed every night singing ‘An Ode to Sam Winchester’ while snuggling into her Sam shaped pillow and calling her first born child Samifer. What I care about is that she posts, and will continute to post, articles that are insightful, well articulated, well informed, well-balanced, often humorous and with good spelling and grammar.

More importantly, she gives us the opportunity to post OUR thoughts (regardless of whether or not we agree with her) in HER domain without fear of vilification or condescension. Respect to you, Alice!

Sorry Bethany!, did you just say you've an article on John? (Tim picks self off floor) Ok, quick question... Does your article have pictures? (big ones, lots of them) Pictures are worth a thousand words after all.....
elle
# elle 2010-08-09 13:21
Tim the Enchanter - you're awesome. I love your post - you yourself are pretty well articulated and FUNNY!
Thanks for bringing some sense and levity :mrgreen:
marie - a
# marie - a 2010-08-09 13:52
*smiley who fails from happiness*


Tim ? Would you marry me ?


:mrgreen:
Bevie
# Bevie 2010-08-09 14:17
Tim the Enchanter - you are a breath of fresh air in this morass of hate-filled attacks.

Thanks to all who are defending Alice, as she did nothing wrong by posting ONE post and pointing out she was at the Con, so had first hand knowledge.

All these accusers are a depressing lot and I sincerely hope they all go back to their unsquee site and have fun pulling everything apart to their heart's content. They can wallow in their negativity and leave us "uninformed and ignorant" regulars to enjoy our show unimpeded.

Thanks to all the wonderful creators and crew that have given us such an awesome show to enjoy!
Jasminka
# Jasminka 2010-08-09 14:48
Enchanting Tim - I love your brain!

Thank you, Jas
elle2
# elle2 2010-08-09 16:00
Tim the Enchanter...you 've enchanted yet again. Another excellent post from you that has me cheering your logic and oh my, is that clear thinking? Yes, I do believe that it is.

I agree with what you said about what does it matter if Alice is a Sam-girl...real ly, what does it matter. For the person somewhere above who posted about how she can't wait for the new season to start and Sam to be shown as cold and unfeeling and how she'll enjoy the show Alice (and apparently everyone on this site since "the whole of the fandom knows Alice and this site is biased") and this site will put on about how terrible the writers are treating Sam...uh, guess you missed how Alice and everyone here handled the whole blood drinking, demon trusting Sam of Season 4 episodes...come to think of it...I think I missed the big 'show' back then. And I was here!

As for Bethany giving us an article on John Winchester...I love it, love it love it! I'm working on one as well giving my view on the 'bashing of John Winchester' as it has been termed a time or two by BuddyTV and elsewhere. The comments a few months ago (several months actually) sparked a thought in my mind and I'll be taking a look at whether or not the character has been bashed of late.

I'm looking forward to your article and hope you enjoy mine. Don't think we're treading on each other's literary thoughts either...just great minds thinking alike!
Sablegreen
# Sablegreen 2010-08-09 17:44
WOW! I missed a lot this weekend. I didn't realize Alice had started this article until now and just finished reading the posts. I am going to break my own rule about answering this kind of venom. This is way out of control.

Alice felt the article offender her and she has a right to post a response. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. I have also noticed that NONE of Alice’s followers have gone to that site and continued the thread there. The nasty posters have visited this site, and it’s not the first time, but you were just as nasty the first time you were here. I have NEVER seen any of the regular WFB posters being nasty on the other site, or any site for that matter. Alice posted, the critic replied, and that was it for them. They set a good example. I think that should be it for you too.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2010-08-10 03:06
Marie – a, of course I'll marry you. You don't even have to ask! Now, the fact that I don’t technically have a (*whispers*) willy... will that be a factor in our nuptial relationship?

Sigh, a marriage proposal from a complete stranger on an internet forum; it's what every girl dreams of....

Elle2 and Bethany, I’m really looking forward to your articles on John. There are so few of them out there and the way the guy was treated towards the end was criminal. From besotted boyfriend to loving husband, to vengeful hunter, to uncompromising father to the suggestion that he only acted this passionately in the first place because he was under Cupids influence. Damn, that was a low blow. (Sorry Kripke, I know you are the man but seriously dude, you and I are gonna have words about that one).
Jasminka
# Jasminka 2010-08-10 03:18
I just noticed something - in a thread that started out with attacks, insults and anger in various form we managed to turn the tone around!

Simply by putting in our words of support, of expressing again what we love about this site and about the show in a civil manner, we dismantled the harsh language used above by some voices.

Call me cheesy or sentimental, but I have always believed that positivity and affection in whatever form is more powerful than spite.

Thank you all who posted a level-headed and optimistic comment and proved that we can argue like adults. Don't get this wrong, please, but I am so proud to be a part of this site and among such intelligent people.

Kudos to you all, Jas
Bethany!
# Bethany! 2010-08-10 05:18
Tim I couldn't agree with you more. Also I can add pictures if you want and yes I share that sentiment ;-)

Elle great minds indeed! it will be interested in seeing what you've written as John is an interesting subject that I personally don't think is talked about enough except to slap the "deadbeat dad" tag on the move on to another topic.

Jasminka - your comment was cheesy and sentimental but we love it!
marie-a
# marie-a 2010-08-10 09:26
Tim - your willy is not a problem since I'm already married. This relation could be virtual ! ;-)

now go to speak about Supernatural ...
Alice
# Alice 2010-08-10 14:42
I think it’s safe to post now! I have to confess, I didn’t read any of these comments until today. Life has been busy and I’ve had other Comic Con stuff to report. Jenniffer has been running the site for the last four days (and doing great!).

I’m actually speechless, but in a good way. I’m so honored by all those coming to defend me. It makes it all worthwhile and shouts down that little “why do I do this” voice that talks to me daily. I do this because I love this show and many of its wonderful fans.

You know, I get a lot of emails from people. They hate posting on the Internet. They’ve noticed as have I that over the last ten years what was once a medium of positive discussion and good humor has turned vile and just plain vicious in most places. Many are afraid of posting for fear of backlash or having their words twisted unnecessarily. I keep a regular dialogue with these people offline and they’re so happy to be able to talk about their show with someone who will objectively listen. They have their likes and dislikes so their love is not blind, but Supernatural still makes them think, it challenges them and they like it.

I’m very much aware I invited trouble and I’ve already spoken my mind about it. I’m over it. I just am trying to isolate that negativity from the rest of the readers who don’t want any part of that crap. Go ahead, form whatever opinion you want. You’re entitled to them.

I’ll give a great example of a civil and constructive discussion. Go to the “Eric Kripke Defends Swan Song” article and read the back and forth between Mousitsa and Melaniedesi. These are very loyal fans that know how to object yet do so in a civil manner. They do this on other sites too, not just this one. They’ve also raised some excellent points to boot. This is the type of discussion this site thrives on. It’s what we promote. Ditto with the insights from Tim The Enchanter or any of the writers here. We don’t always agree but we understand.

Tim The Enchanter, you have an open invitation to become a writer on this site! Your analysis of Sam on the Eric Kripke article was the best damn one I’ve read. You have a way with words that’s perfect for what we do here. If interested, I can be reached through Contact Us. Bethany, of course I’d love a John article! You know where to send it for submission.

Okay, enough with the ugliness. Onto to season six!
anene
# anene 2010-08-11 03:35
Oh good grief. People, trolls, "fans", juveniles, whatever and whoever you are, if you hate the show so much that it makes you spit venom and see red and run online to write vicious hateful stuff aimed at the creators and writers mind you, who are real people just like you and I and are imperfect but who happen to create a work of fiction for a living; then it IS about time you stopped watching. Yes, i am suggesting it because i think someone has to say it. Coming on here and posting hateful comments directed at the creators and brains of the show is childish and insane. It is just a T.V SHOW! FICTITIOUS! Might not be a bad idea to remember that. It is okay to dislike an episode, even hate it. But when it becomes everything about the show, down to thinking the writers are out to get you and your favourite brother and get mad they didn't go the way YOU want them to? That is insanity and not okay.

I hate sweeping generalizations as much as the next guy. Just because you failed to see that there was just as many people who loved Swan Song as there were who hated it doesn't make it right to make stupid false generalization. If it makes you feel better to assume that there were as many fans who hated it to validate your feelings, knock yourself out. And news flash, their are many more people who watch the show that come online to either praise it, or bash it. So it is wholly incorrect to assume the people online represent the whole audience. I love the show, even with the disaster that was season 5. I thought it was the worst season of the show. The season had horrible pacing, useless episodes and odd character or lack of thereof development. But i still care about the show. When i hate an episode, i don't go online to spread my hate where people seem to like it simply because i want attention. It is unfair to accuse people of calling you trolls and then turn around and say everyone on here is a biased fan who suck up to the writers and are all Sam pro when you read between the lines which is going back to that old silly song & dance of Sam fans vs. Dean fans.
And i am an actual bi-bro fan and will admit, i can't for the life of me understand how any one can fully enjoy the show and all that it has to offer by having a favourite brother that you're biased towards. But i accept that there are fans who do. So i hate it when because people assume every fan has a favourite and are just pretending to not. If you think Alice is biased and it annoys you, then why bother coming on here only to vent at her? It is her damn website after all. I like that she deletes hateful comments and vicious attacks especially aimed at the writers and everyone involved in the show because the show didn't go your way.

Alice, good job. I say delete the hateful comments. I love to come on here to squee along with others. I don't want this to turn into just another site dedicated to Sam vs. Dean wars, Kripke hate, and insanity. There are already too many of those trashy place. Save this one.
Randal
# Randal 2010-08-11 10:18
Sam vs. Dean vs. Ditka, who wins?

Ditka, 752 to -9.
Freebird
# Freebird 2010-08-12 23:03
Thanks Deborah for the short overview of the guilty comment. I first thought to check it out myself, but then was too lazy to go through all that.

And all this for that???!!!

I don't find anything insulting in Alice's comment. And I didn't read any further Deborah's comment here. So lazy today. I'm just grateful Alice does what she does here. Thanks, Alice.
Suze
# Suze 2010-08-16 18:33
Bloody Hell, really ... I get back here after weeks and weeks and this shit is still going on, don't you whinging gits have lives?

This is a lovely site full of lovely people who let you grumble as much as you like as long as you do it in a reletively gentile fashion. What's not to like? Alice - You go, girl!
Jessy
# Jessy 2010-08-16 20:12
Bloody Hell, really ... I get back here after weeks and weeks and this shit is still going on, don't you whinging gits have lives?

Couldn't agree more...I took a long break from fandom during hiatus and when I came back, people had gone from yelling and screaming about the finale to yelling and screaming about the spoilers. Some people just need to complain. And from what I've seen about Alice's comment, it wasn't anything horrible and disagreeing with someone's article isn't horrible.

To Alice: I know you've gotten frustrated in the past over this part of fandom too, please stay encouraged and keep writing! I'll be "controversial" here and "warn" you to ignore the freakshows who blow things out of proportion. You'll never please everyone, so just focus on pleasing yourself on your own site, and let the flamers flame out.

PS: But I do have a helluva time posting comments here- every time I try, it tells me I've done the verification word wrong. Like EVERY time. Perhaps something to look into?
winchesterbrosfan
# winchesterbrosfan 2010-09-10 16:28
I have never posted here before, and I haven't read the post that caused this argument, only the bits of it, and Alice's response, quoted in this thread. However I lurk alot on another board where the Innsmouth Press writer is a regular, and I feel I should point a few things about the poster Alice has had this spat with.
She has an agenda that she peddles constantly. She is pro Dean to the point of seeing absoutely everything from his perspective. As a result she is very anti-Sam. She hated SS because she felt it shortchanged Dean's arc. She hated season 5. These are all just opinions and therefore she is entitled to them. This isn't the problem. What makes this poster so difficult to deal with is her mission to state as fact that the world believes what she does ie she constantly peddles the view that 'everyone hated the finale', 'fans are leaving in droves' etc. She peppers every post (and she is an extremely prolific poster) with casual statements of apparent 'facts' along these lines. Now I am not saying no-one agrees with her, but I am darned sure not everyone does. There is no such thing as a consensus view among SPN fans.
That her mission in life to rewrite history to match how she wishes things were is well known on that board and she is regularly called for it. She tends to respond nastily, and at length - often accusing those who disagree with her that they are bullying or trying to tell others what to think. I have seen many posters be on the receiving end of her overreactions. It is not pleasant.
If she deliberately spun some comments from the Con to support her views, particularly her negative view of Swan Song, then that is very much her MO.
To that end I feel that Alice is probably just one more person who has called her on her tendency to bend the facts to match her world view, and has reaped the whirlwind that always follows. Keep your chin up Alice. You are not the first to cross swords with her and you won't be the last.