Warning!!!!!!  If you haven't seen "Out With The Old" or the preview for next week's episode, do not read any further!  There will be spoilers!
 
I have to say, I definitely thought cursed objects was going to be the entire episode, and wow, was I wrong.  That wrapped up in 20 minutes!  Good pacing.  But the cursed objects were just red herrings (like Communism!) because the real meat of the episode was Leviathan flavored.  It was nice to have some development on that front.  And development there was!

Also, after the episode and while writing this, I had some great conversations on Twitter with some friends, fellow WFB authors, and awesome "Supernatural" fans.  Some of the things I'm going to talk about in this article came from conversations with them, so I'm going to issue a blanket thanks to all of you for your ideas and for your excellent speculating!  Please consider this your blanket sourcing because it's getting late, and I don't feel like looking back through all our Tweets to find who said what first, so please don't be mad at me!  And my thanks for helping me speculate!

What Is Going On In Leviathan Land?

First and foremost, I'm kind of sad that Joyce is dead because she was fantastic.  What a right witch, but boy was she ever fun.  I was really hoping she'd be around more.  George was fun, too, but Joyce was so over-the-top fun.  Not sure what they did with him, though.  Did they let him go?  Sure, he helped them, but it seems to me he could have been a valuable asset.

And speaking of red herrings, this whole thing about Leviathans only being here for good, curing cancer and all that, has to be some sort of ploy, right?  I mean, there's no way they're out to just help people.  I don't buy it.  So why are they curing cancer?  Is cancer is a plague to the Leviathans, so they want to cure it before it wipes them out?  I think that's possible.  Make your food source more healthy and you become healthier, too.

And really, we've seen that the Leviathans kill people and are generally not nice, but what if that is only because they get impatient when people don't do what they're told?  Joyce only killed people who didn't sell their stores and pissed her off.  She was trying to buy them off first.  To the outside world, the Leviathans aren't even recognizable right now.  So what if they are trying to win over the hearts and minds of the people by doing good deeds so that Sam and Dean look like the bad guys for going against them?

I like the idea of the Leviathans trying to make themselves look like the good guys and discredit Sam and Dean that way.  Clearly, they aren't getting anywhere by just trying to kill them, so it's time for some serious plan B action.  I kind of wish, though, that if they were going that route, they had pulled a "Childhood's End" and come in guns blazing.  For those of you not familiar with the book "Childhood's End," I'll give a little summary about the part I'm interested in.  It's a classic Sci-Fi novel written by Arthur C. Clarke, and in it these aliens stage a peaceful takeover of Earth, and they do all these good deeds and make lots of things better, but they hide at first and don't let anyone see them until they've been on Earth for a long time.  Then lots of other stuff happens, and I don't want to spoil it so I'll just stick with this analogy for now, but if you like Sci-Fi novels, check it out.  It's interesting.  Anyway, I think it would have been excellent if the Leviathans had turned up and just started doing all these great things while also trying to take over the world, so it made Sam and Dean really look like fringe crazies.  That could have been a very effective way of isolating them, as well.

The Sam Situation

Poor Sam.  Poor, poor Sam.  He's really not doing well, is he?  So here's some depressing food for thought: what if Sam cracks so badly that he starts thinking he's Lucifer?  Or what if by talking to Lucifer and letting him in during "Repo Man," he actually somehow opened the cage and let Lucifer out?  And now Lucifer is just worming his way back, slowly taking over Sam until Sam becomes Lucifer?  He already said yes once, so maybe he doesn't need to give explicit permission again.  Maybe all Lucifer needs is an opening, and now he's got one.  Sam only needed to give his consent to Lucifer once, and after that the bar is lower for Lucifer's involvement.  If Sam had known that this time a yes wasn't needed, that this time all he needed was to acknowledge Lucifer's presence, I wonder if he would have still let him in?  Dean is Sam's weakness, but Lucifer is the greater evil.  But if Sam's becoming Lucifer again, that would mean...

The Endverse Is Coming True

I saw the germ of this idea on Tumblr, so I can't take credit for it, but let's run with this and expand on it, shall we?  Also, bear with me because this might get kind of crazy, but that's half the fun!  So, let's compare the world in "The End" to what's going on and what would happen if Sam starts becoming Lucifer.  Croatoan=Cancer, Sam=Lucifer, Bobby=Dead, Cass=Human/Changed, End Of The World Scenario=Leviathans Causing End Of The World Scenario.  The only wild card here is Dean because he hasn't turned into a heartless killer yet, but if Sam keeps on heading down the path he's on, maybe he will, too.  And if Sam's turning into Lucifer again, this brings us back to his two major points in "The End"; "we will always end up here," and "I win, so I win."  Maybe Lucifer's right and they will always end up in an apocalyptic scenario where Lucifer, i.e. Sam, and Michael, i.e. Dean, have to face off.  Maybe they'll keep running into apocalyptic scenarios until that showdown finally happens.  I mean, so far they've had The Apocalypse, then part 2 with Raphael trying to start it again, then part 3 with Eve and Purgatory and that mess, and now they've got Leviathans on their hands.  Sam and Dean were bred to be The Vessels, so until they actually have their showdown, the world or fate or destiny or whatever is going to keep throwing them into these situations.  Everything seems to keep pointing back to Dean having to kill Sam, just like their father warned Dean about way back at the beginning of season 2.  And here's a theory about that, too: what if John said that because he was having a sense memory from when he was Michael all those years ago?  He didn't tell Dean he might have to kill Sam because he was afraid Sam would become a monster.  He told Dean he might have to kill Sam because he knew Sam would become Lucifer one day.  He felt what Michael felt about his brother, that he would have to kill him if he couldn't save him.  It's an idea that's been extremely central to the show, so is that where we're heading?  Is Dean going to have to kill Sam at the end of the series?

Phew, that was heavy.  And it doesn't look like things will be lightening up anytime soon because next week Sam's in mortal peril, Meg's back (!!!!), and oh, yeah, CAAAAAAAAAAAAAASS!!!!!!!  Not that I'm excited for his return or anything.

Okay, time for you to weigh in!  What do you think?  What are the Leviathans up to?  Is Sam going to become Lucifer again?  Is "The End" coming true?  Who wants to go watch "The End" now since I've been mentioning it so much?

Comments  

buffsgirl
# buffsgirl 2012-03-17 01:43
OK..... first, my comments on the episode. I actually felt like I got to watch two SPN episodes instead of one tonight. I laughed and laughed for the first 20 minutes. The music?? Brilliant. Sam yelling at the kid about being too tired to teach him a lesson? Hysterical! Dean and his ballet pun? :lol:

Then the episode gets much heavier and I was really worried about Sam at the end. Either they did a great job with Jared's make-up or that man really WAS sleep deprived because he looked wrecked. I don't think there is any way the Levi's are here to help. They are up to no good, just not clear what exactly that means.

The Endverse scenario......W OW. This is the first I have heard of this theory and..... WOW. I am speechless. In some ways I actually hope this is where they are going and in some ways I SO don't want them to go there. I need to think on this. Something to mull over this weekend. Thanks for hurting my brain! ;-)
Ardeospina
# Ardeospina 2012-03-18 16:28
Yeah, I'm with you about simultaneously wanting and not wanting Endverse. But it really feels, to me, that we're heading for something pretty depressing.
Jen
# Jen 2012-03-17 03:22
The Endverse is pretty much what I have been thinking about for a long time now. I think I wrote about it back when we discussed if Sam and Luci are psychically connected and since I'm too lazy to retype my thoughts I just copied it here. :)

And here goes my theory.
I wanted to say was that I also think there could very well be a connection between Sam and Lucifer, maybe right now it might be more "influencing" rather than completely "controlling" Sam. I've got the feeling a few times over the season actually. Sometimes I felt like some Lucifer humour shone through in Sam and I found it fucking creepy even though I knew Sam had to deal with Lucifer every single day.

So, let's say there is this "bond" between Sam and Lucifer, there is something else I had to think about. Maybe it doesn't fit completely in this discussion, but I didn't know where else to put it. Maybe I'm mixing things up and therefore my thoughts are bound to be bullshit, but still... I know this theme has been touched before and it's about "time". So, maybe I didn't realize it but has there actually ever been said what year it is? Because I can't remember right now. So bear with me if none of my thoughts make any sense because I got years mixed up. I'm gonna write them down though now anyway.

So, I apologize in advance if all the years are wrong, but to me it seems like Season 5 ended in the year 2009/2010. Means when Season 6 continues it must be late 2011/2012, which makes Season 7 play loosly around 2013 maybe already 2014. Yeah, what do I want with that. Good question. I couldn't help but think of the episode "The End" in season 5, where Dean gets to live in the year 2014 for a few days.

What if this possible future didn't really get prevented? I know my theory has some holes (the Croatoan/Apocal ype, etc), but maybe just maybe there might a tiny little something in there. What if we're heading toward this time now? We always assumed that when we got to see Satan-Sam in this episode, that there never was a "Cage"-incident ever, so to say Sam said yes and he's being posessed ever since. But what if this future actually showed a Sam that has been "controlled" by Lucifer from the cage (I know it's all abit over the top but somehow I would find it to be interesting, especially because of what it says about "destiny", "choice" and "fate" which always had been major topics throughout SPN) and Sam just couldn't fight him anymore? I mean - except for Chuck - things maybe could add up... As far as I remember in "The End" we see no Bobby (Is he alive or dead? Was that said back then?). Bobby is dead now for all we know. There is Castiel, but different from what we know. He lost his powers, got human. Now, we know Castiel is coming back but he won't be the Castiel we knew... And Dean. Yeah, Dean. Maybe Dean will get like that when he really sees there is no way of saving Sam.

I doubt that this is really what the writers have in mind, but I thought it was interesting to think about. Which leaves me wondering how the hell, if this could be what we're heading for, how the boys could fix this? I have no idea. There are other interesting things to think about though, I'm just unable to write them down in a way anyone else could understand. I doubt anyone was able to understand those thoughts I tried to express here, so... But what about Dean and Michael? Could there be a "bond" as well, even though he said no and Adam is in the cage with him? What if Dean can hear Michael in his head as well? I know there are no signs for it, but... yeah.

So yeah, rambling.
But I absolutely thought about it the way you did. Maybe that fight betwen Luci/Michael/Sa m/Dean has to happen, that there is no way around it - like Luci-Sam said in "The End". Maybe this is how the whole series will end, with this scenario.
Ardeospina
# Ardeospina 2012-03-18 16:30
I must have missed your comment the first time around, but nice work putting that together so early!
Jen
# Jen 2012-03-17 03:22
The Endverse is pretty much what I have been thinking about for a long time now. I think I wrote about it back when we discussed if Sam and Luci are psychically connected and since I'm too lazy to retype my thoughts I just copied it here. :)

And here goes my theory.
I wanted to say was that I also think there could very well be a connection between Sam and Lucifer, maybe right now it might be more "influencing" rather than completely "controlling" Sam. I've got the feeling a few times over the season actually. Sometimes I felt like some Lucifer humour shone through in Sam and I found it fucking creepy even though I knew Sam had to deal with Lucifer every single day.

So, let's say there is this "bond" between Sam and Lucifer, there is something else I had to think about. Maybe it doesn't fit completely in this discussion, but I didn't know where else to put it. Maybe I'm mixing things up and therefore my thoughts are bound to be bullshit, but still... I know this theme has been touched before and it's about "time". So, maybe I didn't realize it but has there actually ever been said what year it is? Because I can't remember right now. So bear with me if none of my thoughts make any sense because I got years mixed up. I'm gonna write them down though now anyway.

So, I apologize in advance if all the years are wrong, but to me it seems like Season 5 ended in the year 2009/2010. Means when Season 6 continues it must be late 2011/2012, which makes Season 7 play loosly around 2013 maybe already 2014. Yeah, what do I want with that. Good question. I couldn't help but think of the episode "The End" in season 5, where Dean gets to live in the year 2014 for a few days.

What if this possible future didn't really get prevented? I know my theory has some holes (the Croatoan/Apocal ype, etc), but maybe just maybe there might a tiny little something in there. What if we're heading toward this time now? We always assumed that when we got to see Satan-Sam in this episode, that there never was a "Cage"-incident ever, so to say Sam said yes and he's being posessed ever since. But what if this future actually showed a Sam that has been "controlled" by Lucifer from the cage (I know it's all abit over the top but somehow I would find it to be interesting, especially because of what it says about "destiny", "choice" and "fate" which always had been major topics throughout SPN) and Sam just couldn't fight him anymore? I mean - except for Chuck - things maybe could add up... As far as I remember in "The End" we see no Bobby (Is he alive or dead? Was that said back then?). Bobby is dead now for all we know. There is Castiel, but different from what we know. He lost his powers, got human. Now, we know Castiel is coming back but he won't be the Castiel we knew... And Dean. Yeah, Dean. Maybe Dean will get like that when he really sees there is no way of saving Sam.

I doubt that this is really what the writers have in mind, but I thought it was interesting to think about. Which leaves me wondering how the hell, if this could be what we're heading for, how the boys could fix this? I have no idea. There are other interesting things to think about though, I'm just unable to write them down in a way anyone else could understand. I doubt anyone was able to understand those thoughts I tried to express here, so... But what about Dean and Michael? Could there be a "bond" as well, even though he said no and Adam is in the cage with him? What if Dean can hear Michael in his head as well? I know there are no signs for it, but... yeah.

So yeah, rambling.
But I absolutely thought about it the way you did. Maybe that fight betwen Luci/Michael/Sa m/Dean has to happen, that there is no way around it - like Luci-Sam said in "The End". Maybe this is how the whole series will end, with this scenario.
Jen
# Jen 2012-03-17 03:24
Sorry, I didn't mean to post this twice! Sorry!
Karen
# Karen 2012-03-17 09:34
Wow! I really liked this episode.
I was not expecting the Leviathan’s at all.
For me I was glad to see Joyce get it in the end, she deserved it.
As for George I got the feeling they kept him alive that’s why they didn’t show him being killed. Or maybe they did chop his head off but will give it back to him when they need to get more information from him.
As for the Leviathan’s wanting to cure Cancer, they have to be doing it for their own sake not for humans. Maybe eating humans with Cancer is like humans eating beef that is infected with ‘Mad Cow’. It can make them very sick or kill them.
I do believe that Dick and the Leviathan’s are slowly trying to take over the world. Trying to be discreet as possible from having their existence being known, this way they can avoid world panic, war, any kind of hostile retaliation.
With humans being on top of the Food Chain, I believe that their end game is to eventually have human being farmed.

Poor Sam is right. I’m not sure if I believe that Sam is some kind of door for Lucifer. I think they are just hallucinations. However it could lead to some interesting episodes if he has been freed through Sam.

The Endverse is an interesting concept. To have “The End” come to full circle, would lead to quite the series end.

As for Frank I’m thinking he’s still alive, that he got away. Well I’m hoping. I do like the character.
purplehairedwonder
# purplehairedwonder 2012-03-17 11:13
Having slept on our epic round of speculation last night, I'm still loving the Endverse theory. I still get the feeling that the writers are moving toward Sam just being crazy, but the thought of the garden scene from "The End" playing out anyway, despite all of Sam's sacrifices, is gut-wrenching. If Lucifer is more than a hallucination and trying to take control by breaking down Sam's sanity... Yikes. And yet kind of awesome at the same time. I'm with Linda: Season 7 ends with "I win, so I win." Fade to black.

That would be killer.
Ardeospina
# Ardeospina 2012-03-18 16:31
So, so killer.
MisterGlass
# MisterGlass 2012-03-17 12:37
I completely buy the idea that the Leviathans are making themselves look better before going public-ish, or they are trying to make the food better.

I have wondered all season if Lucifer was reaching out of the cage toward Sam, and have seen nothing to convince me otherwise so far. I pity Sam. That Endverse concept make some sense.

I just hope that whatever happened and whatever he's lost, Cas is still Cas.
Amy
# Amy 2012-03-17 12:54
Uhhh I really hope SN doesn't end with The End with Lucifer winning over Sam. The poor guy. I couldn't stand to see this happen...to see Sam basically cease to exist despite all his basic goodness, his fighting to do good and do the right thing.

But it does, I'm burning all my DVD's, fanzines, magazines and other memorabilia in a super huge bonfire.

I need my hero to well..not win but not loose...his life, his soul, his very being. I dont want him to loose everything he is.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-03-17 13:01
Quote:
Uhhh I really hope SN doesn't end with The End with Lucifer winning over Sam. The poor guy. I couldn't stand to see this happen...to see Sam basically cease to exist despite all his basic goodness, his fighting to do good and do the right thing.

But it does, I'm burning all my DVD's, fanzines, magazines and other memorabilia in a super huge bonfire.

I need my hero to well..not win but not loose...his life, his soul, his very being. I dont want him to loose everything he is.
I would hate that too but I am not really sure what the show believes where Sam is concerned?. But after his sacrifices and fighting it would be a cruel thing to do.
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2012-03-17 14:58
Quote:
Uhhh I really hope SN doesn't end with The End with Lucifer winning over Sam. The poor guy. I couldn't stand to see this happen...to see Sam basically cease to exist despite all his basic goodness, his fighting to do good and do the right thing.

But it does, I'm burning all my DVD's, fanzines, magazines and other memorabilia in a super huge bonfire.

I need my hero to well..not win but not loose...his life, his soul, his very being. I dont want him to loose everything he is.
I agree I would be very very unhappy too if show uses Sam Winchesters neverending struggles and hard hard fighting against evil inside and outside, hard hard trying to stay human and his inner goodness, his core, his inherent strong and good human soul would cease to exist, because Sam has no other choice, and his fight would have been for nothing! I would put my DVDs right in your huge bonfire Amy and I would try to erase in my mind that I ever loved the show.

It would tell us that there is no -absolute no- reason for hope even when someone like Sam is holding onto hope and "good", it would tell us that the Winchesters were only puppets on strings struggling for nothing and in the end the puppet players all succeed, puppet players like angels, demons and maybe even God and Death!

180 years of being in a hole/cage with Lucifer does this to a man, even if this man is stronger than every other human being would be!

Only thing that speaks for this gruesome scenario about "The End" is for me that the show fails to show Sam's struggles and the show fails to connect Sam with the viewers. Viewers who would be attached to the character if they would show Sam's struggles, his feelings, his persona, his fears, connections to other humans, someone who cares for Sam, someone we would like and cares for Sam nonetheless. Sam doesn't need only Lucifer talking to him, Sam needs to talk to us viewers, and even when he is quiete, other should tell us Sam's story. That is what is missing, deeply in this show, connecting Sam with us viewers, so we can relate to him and feel for him! When nobody is attached to Sam, not the viewers, who cares for him? We should care for Sam, that is where the show failed IMO! So why are they not writing scenes for Sam where we can be attached and feel for him? Nobody knows...
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-03-17 19:43
I don't know, I feel very attached to Sam. I don't feel a disconnect with him and feel for his struggles. I think Sam and Dean are very different people and Sam will never connect with a variety of people the way Dean does. Dean is the one who has the need to protect. But he feels this way about Sam most of all, so Sam has Dean to help us feel for him. This season has had Dean trying to let Sam grow up, but he'll always be Sam's big brother/dad/par tner.

I'm very worried for Sam as he breaks down. (Not on the Endverse train, though. I think the apocalypse story line is over and they won't be revisiting it to completely change season five).
Ardeospina
# Ardeospina 2012-03-18 16:39
I agree that they're not going to go with The Apocalypse from season 5, but if you substitute "world-threaten ing scenario" for apocalypse, then it could still play out.
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-03-19 09:24
I think the idea is intriguing, but I don't see the set up for it in what we have happening. I think Sam is revisiting his Lucifer days because he needs to integrate his damage so he can heal and access the strength he's always had but been afraid of. My guess is he is going to have a crisis in order to move forward with his damage, not give in to it.

I don't see the Leviathans being any friendlier to Lucifer than they were to Crowley, so the end of days in this scenario wouldn't suit the devil any more than Sam and Dean. He's not driving this apocalypse. To me, he works better as metaphorical internal damage than external bad guy.

I guess we'll see soon enough as we head into the final turn of the season.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-03-17 13:04
Just in relation to the 'curing cancer' comment, is there any possibility that George was being a bit facetious here in that maybe humans are the 'cancer' he refers to?

I dunno, I'm not sure how keen I am on the idea that the Leviathans aren't actually the 'bad guys' per se. They killed Bobby, ffs. And if you take away Deans revenge driven sense of purpose in the aftermath of Bobby, where will that leave him? Is he going to be floundering at sea once more?

The Endverse theory is pretty good (and it will certainly keep us going over the next freaking hiatus...) but its depressing beyond belief because it could lead to a case where Sam and Dean just think 'What on earth are we fighting for?' Free will is again gone, decisions gone, Sam and Dean puppets once more, all the sacrifices were for nothing, all the pain and loss irrelevant. You couldn't blame them for just saying 'Look, it's going to happen anyway so lets just get it done. Yes.....'

It may also lead to a case where the viewers themselves might think 'What are we watching for? There isn't going to be any happy ending for the boys.' I'm still holding out hope for a happy ending for those two. God knows they deserve it but how can they have a happy ending if everything they've fought for, died for is lost to them?

Really good episode, btw.
Bevie
# Bevie 2012-03-17 15:09
Don't care at all for the Endverse theory. How absolutely depressing that would be after all these years of watching our heroes fighting for the good.

I'm with Tim hoping for a happy ending and getting what they deserve after all their sacrifices and misery. They MUST get a reward or the whole thing was for naught! :eek:

And yes, I enjoyed the episode, but would have liked to see Dean ballet dancing and am hoping Frank is not dead! :cry:
Y vonne
# Y vonne 2012-03-17 14:44
No deep thoughts on the episode. But nearly laughed my bupkis off at the name of the dude with the cursed gentleman's mag. Peter Yangit? Really? I mean really! Oh show, how I love you. :D :D :D
BagginsDVM
# BagginsDVM 2012-03-17 15:26
I don't for a moment believe that the Leviathans are here to help humans, other than helping humans become a better food source for them.

The Endverse theory is compelling, but I would be horrified if the series ends that way. After all that the guys ( and us as fans!) have endured, that is just too depressing. Sam & Dean have sacrificed way too much for Sam to end up as Lucifer & for Dean to have to kill Sam in the end. There has to be some hope, some reward for them. I'd be heartbroken, but I would be okay with a Frodo Baggins style sacrifice. They save the world, but not for themselves. However, there had better be a beautiful black impala waiting at the Grey Havens of the Supernaturalver se for them!
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-03-17 15:50
I hate the Endverse idea because of the total hopelessness implied in it. Plus it reinforces the idea that somehow Sam is evil and wrong at his core and that he caused the devastation by "letting Lucifer in". At the same time, Castiel get blanket immunity for letting Lucifer out of the cage, considering that he remains Dean's friend while Dean plots to kill Sam. That would just infuriate me completely.

There has to be a better ending than this.
buffsgirl
# buffsgirl 2012-03-17 18:29
Just in relation to the 'curing cancer' comment, is there any possibility that George was being a bit facetious here in that maybe humans are the 'cancer' he refers to?

I really like this explanation. I think you may be onto something here.

I slept on the whole Endverse idea last night too and, after thinking about it, I have a lot of problems with it. The prevailing theme of the entire series has been free will vs. destiny. This philosophical question is better left ambiguous and for the show creators to give an answer to this argument with the Endverse scenario seems like a horrible way to go. Plus, I am unsure how they could get there if this truly is their endgame.

However, strictly for the sake of speculation, let’s assume this is where they are going. Here are some questions I have. If anyone has the time / energy / desire to answer some of these questions I would love to hear your ideas.
1. So, let’s assume that Luci is able to get out of the cage and inhabit Sam’s vessel again because Sam let him back in. What about Michael? Could Michael also get out of the cage if Dean were to agree to be his vessel?
2. What effect has being in hell had on Michael? Is he still one of heavens “most terrifying weapons”? I can’t imagine he is the same Michael that went into the cage.
3. If Michael is able to get out of the cage with a yes from Dean, what happens to Adam?
4. If Dean were to kill Sam before Luci totally took him back over, then what? That would mean the big “prize fight” would never happen. So…… if they are destined to fight each other (and by they I mean Michael and Lucifer), would the angels just bring them (Sam and Dean) back again? Or, is one brother killing the other no matter who controls the body considered adequate for the apocalypse scenario?
5. If Dean does kill Sam, then what? He goes and gets in Baby and blows his head off? I mean I cannot imagine Dean being able to go on after doing something like that.

I really do not expect a happy ending for our boys. I think they are going to die bloody somehow, someway and that is how the show is going to end. However, I would much prefer to see them “go down swinging” as “team free will” then to have all their struggles and angst all for naught because they are destined to play out their roles.
cestaffer
# cestaffer 2012-03-22 02:03
I debated whether to post my independent thoughts first or not, but I don't want to do that until I read all the posts. But I've only made it his far; and if I understand the reply threading here, no one has tackled your questions yet. So I'll give it a go.

1. So, let’s assume that Luci is able to get out of the cage and inhabit Sam’s vessel again because Sam let him back in. What about Michael? Could Michael also get out of the cage if Dean were to agree to be his vessel?

Well, given you're initial assumption, it almost seems unreasonable to think Michael cannot accomplish what Lucifer can accomplish.



2. What effect has being in hell had on Michael? Is he still one of heavens “most terrifying weapons”? I can’t imagine he is the same Michael that went into the cage.

Eh...Michael's an archangel. I can imagine that The Cage would not be as big a hardship for him as it would be for Sam. Also, Michael's at least a couple thousand years old and perhaps much, much older. He's probably taken cat naps that were longer than the time he's been in The Cage (LOL).


3. If Michael is able to get out of the cage with a yes from Dean, what happens to Adam?

Hard to say. How much do Michael and Dean really have in common? Michael and Cas? Michael and Uriel or Zachariah? If Michael's a dick of an angel, he won't give a darn about Adam. If he's Dean-like, one problem with setting up the next hermano-a-herma no showdown could, theoretically, be Michael feeling compelled to stay put to protect Adam until he finds a way to get them both outta there. And I wouldn't be surprised if there's something like that going on with some members of the Fab 4 too. But that's me going "spec-maniac" again (LOL). Anyway, another thing to consider is that we were given the impression, earlier, that perhaps the biggest concern Sam would face is that he'd get ganged up on by 2 pissed off archangels. And you can say... but Sam seems to have experienced Hell fire.Yeah, but was that the location or was it Lucifer's doing? Cuz if it's the latter and 2 pissed off archangels was the worst part of the Cage: a) the archangels were probably never as pissed at Adam and b) if they escape with tickets for Showdown: The Sequel, they won't be there to vent their frustrations on Adam, huh?



4. If Dean were to kill Sam before Luci totally took him back over, then what? That would mean the big “prize fight” would never happen.

Well, unless Dean has Anna's ability to scatter bits o'Sam all over creation, or Dean gets someone (Cas?) to do it, aren't we supposed to believe Luci will just put Sam back together again?


Also 4. Or, is one brother killing the other no matter who controls the body considered adequate for the apocalypse scenario?

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. If you're talking about Apocalypse I think it kinda needs to involve the forces of God/Jesus and the angels vs Lucifer/Antichr ist and the demons/fallen angels. If you're talking about The End being semi-prophetic, well then a showdown need not involve either Michael or Lucifer. And if you're talking "apocalypse" with a lower case a... Well, I'll lose all self-control over my inner spec-maniac if I go there (LOL).


5. If Dean does kill Sam, then what? He goes and gets in Baby and blows his head off? I mean I cannot imagine Dean being able to go on after doing something like that.

How do you like your spec? Feet planted on Mother Earth... circling the Earth... or ...out there? (LOL). I can dish it up any which way. Based on your example I'm guessing feet on the ground. And yeah, that does make it challenging to come up with something palatable, mythic, and yet not cliched. Too tall of an order for me. Is your real concern: how does Dean "go on" after killing Sam? Well, we just got a character named George. Meg called Cas "Clarence" once upon a time. We had the episode title that riffed on It's a Wonderful Life. So I'd guess that Dean does put a plan in the works to commit suicide but he gets side-tracked in the process by the compulsion to save someone else's life. Maybe Dean discovers RoboSam fathered one or more kids. Ever since Unforgiven I've been waiting for that shoe to drop. Cuz, unlike with Clarence in Wonderful Life, it would ideally be someone Dean couldn't just save and then walk away from.

Next thing you know, Dean and Sam junior are camping. It's sunset. Camera circles around them to show what's on the opposite side (from the tent & Impala). They're at the Grand Canyon. Dean's sitting by a campfire and ...pulling a cheeseburger out of a paper sack. We hear JP's voice though no one is sitting next to Dean, "Tell me I'm not seeing this." There's a clang as Sammy drives the last tent stake into the ground. He stands up and asks, "Sooo... Whadaya think?" but it sure sounds like JP's voice. No, it's still young Sammy... but we can see Dean's old protection amulet around his neck. Dean glances over his shoulder and says, "Needs more salt." Camera pulls back to show a ring of salt around the tent. As Sammy adds salt to sparse areas we zoom back in on Dean who gives a little satisfied nod (to himself, not Sammy). Dean starts fiddling with an old portable AM/FM radio as Sammy returns but he's getting mostly static. "You're not gonna get anything," says Sammy. Dean looks around but not with concern and he nods. "Too far out behind God's back." "No," Sammy corrects him. "You never get anything. Ever. I don't get why you still hang onto it; it's broken." Dean smiles and manages to pull in a recognizable classic rock tune of OK but imperfect clarity... still a touch staticy. "Trust me kid, it works just fine. Oh yeah, we're definitely workin." Amp up the music and roll credits...

Um yeah... well... that's why I went into science and not creative writing (LOL)

And besides, I don't think the Team will be going with a feet-on-the-gro und ending.
racestaffer
# racestaffer 2012-03-22 02:05
OH good... Somehow I managed to typo my own name. That's awesome {eyes rolling}.
Junkerin
# Junkerin 2012-03-17 18:50
Hi, I realy liked the episode.
But I wont buy you End vers idea. Sorry I don´t go there. For me Luci is still in the cage and Sam is "only" hunted by his memories. Luci showing up is his only in his head and next week Sam will be cured by Cass (or what ever he calls himself then).
I just don´t see how Meg fits in, but we all will see next week.
Kelios
# Kelios 2012-03-17 19:25
No.
digyd
# digyd 2012-03-17 19:28
Whew. That was a lot and i see a lot of opinions to read here. But before I do, all I want to say is there is no way I will believe Dean will kill Sam, not after all this time and all they have already been through. They have willpower to rival any Angel or demon. They have said the same thing throughout the series -- go down fighting. If anything they will kill themselves together before one kills the other just to end all this.

I have faith in that. :-) On a lighter note, I was elated they didn't make Dean dance and yay! My favorite version of Meg is back! Always liked her.
digyd
# digyd 2012-03-17 19:38
Oh and one more thing. I didn't see all of season 7 in order so there are still about 2, maybe 3 episodes I still need to see. So I am just wondering if cutting off Joyce's head was the solution the guys have been looking for all this time or is it just another temporary death. Her little helper sure seemed to have the answer.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-03-17 23:40
Bobby discovered the head chop thing, but it doesn't kill them, you have to keep the head and the body separate otherwise they glue themselves back together. Hence Dean popping Joyce's head in a bag.
digyd
# digyd 2012-03-17 20:50
And I am back for yet one more comment. Dean isn't the only wildcard. In order for the pieces to be in place for this Endverse theory, you need Chuck and I got the feeling, like Enoch in the Bible, Chuck was spirited to heaven, no? Naw. I just don't think it's going that way. Now I really am done.
LynnE
# LynnE 2012-03-17 23:35
At first I was disappointed in this episode. I wanted to see a continuation of Sam's breakdown. I wanted to see Sam tell Dean about his situation. But once I accepted that it happens next week I could re-watch and enjoy the episode.

I think the "cure cancer" is about making sure they have a continued food source. In Win Friends we see the Leviathan making humans complacent, it makes sense that they would also what people health and not dying until they are ready to be eaten.

As for the endverse theory I love the speculation. So well thought out and presented in this article. However, I am in the camp of wanting Sam to get some sort of redemption, and Dean not having to face his worst nightmare. Also, in Mommy Dearest Cas was impotent and Eve said it was because she was older than angles. So in essence the big fight between 2 angles couldn't take place because the Leviathan are stronger.

I can't wait for next week. I just hope it's not a quick wave of the hand and Sam is perfect again. That would be a let down for me.

I love reading these write ups. All of the authors really make me see episode in a different, and better, light
racestaffer
# racestaffer 2012-03-22 21:03
Quote:
Also, in Mommy Dearest Cas was impotent and Eve said it was because she was older than angles
Actually, I think Eve said, "I'm older than you, Castiel." We don't know that all angels are the same age in SPN. Also, Eve never claimed to be a Leviathan. And, how do we know older means having the upper hand in a fight? Cuz the spin doctors pitch ancient/primord ial as powerful? What about the notion of new and improved? How much older than the angels are the Levis and what does that mean for such beings? Cuz in Curious Case... in a fight between Dean and AARP-Dean, my money's on (younger) Dean (LOL).
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-03-17 23:37
Ahhhhhh you're Endverse thing has totally freaked me out! I don't think it's heading that way...but I'm still going to go sit in the corner and rock myself back and forth while mumbling "not true, not true" for a little bit! :o
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-03-17 23:46
Oh and one more thing on the Endverse concept, that totally negates the concept of free will over destiny and this show, the entire thing, is about instilling your own free will over the destiny laid out before you....I don't think that we will ever get to a place where the brother's destiny is not in their own hands. It kind of defeats the purpose of EVERYTHING. Everyone pushes and pulls them, but they always make their own choice in the end and I think, when this journey finally comes to a conclusion, that's what they'll do again, they'll go out on their own terms...
Though my preferred end would be slamming the trunk of the Impala and one of them saying "We've got work to do"... ending just how it started.... but I'm a bit of a romantic that way! :P
buffsgirl
# buffsgirl 2012-03-18 00:12
Though my preferred end would be slamming the trunk of the Impala and one of them saying "We've got work to do"... ending just how it started.... but I'm a bit of a romantic that way! :P

Sweetondean - I TOTALLY agree with you here. My preferred ending is them getting beat to hell, dragging their battered and broken bodies to the Impala, Dean making some sarcastic comment, Sam giving Dean his best bitch face, them throwing their weapons into the trunk, them saying,in unison "We've got work to do", slam the trunk.... end scene.

Would be a poetic ending but.... I fear it is not going to go down like that.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-03-18 09:31
I would LOVE for the show to end with them saying "We've got work to do". Both guys on the same path with renewed purpose. But I have a feeling it will end with "the blaze of glory" ending that Jared and Jensen have advocated. Which I'm fine with as long as it doesn't end with one or both in Hell-that would really upset me.

Ok the mushy fangirl in me would love to see a happy ending for the boys after such hard lives. With wives and kids (if for no other then men like that NEED to propagate). Still hunting, but also training others to hunt (because hunters seriously need something other than the trial and error method they got going and they need a database for news of the weird) and taking over the Bobby-networkin g position as they get older. I know there is no way that is going to happen and it doesn't probably even fit with the show. But I'm good with the blaze of glory and really love the"We've got work to do." and either probably fit the show better.



The endverse theory is interesting but I agree with everyone who says it doesn't fit with the show's themes of freewill. And it would totally invalidate all the suffering both the boys have done of the years, but especially Sam's. He's struggled and suffered all through the show and in hell to sacrifice himself for Dean and mankind and have that be for nothing, would be too cruel. To have him go dark despite all he's done to remain good, would be depressing on a whole other level. I don't think the show will go there, because again it doesn't fit with the theme of freewill.
Gwen
# Gwen 2012-03-18 12:54
Quote:
Though my preferred end would be slamming the trunk of the Impala and one of them saying "We've got work to do"... ending just how it started.... but I'm a bit of a romantic that way! :P
This is exactly how I want the show to end too, ever since S1 this has been my preferred ending. I was gutted when they used this at the end of S2 as it made me think that we won't get such an ending again. :sad:

Quote:
When they eventually die (of natural causes, at the same time, many, many years from now)
Yes. It has to be at the same time. I know this is just a telly show but the thought of one of them dying at the very end of the series and the other one living the rest of his life without his brother just depresses me so much. I feel a bit silly admitting this...seeing as they're not real, it's just a telly show etc... *Blushes*

As for the Endverse theory - it's a fascinating idea but no, just please, no. I really, really, really hope it doesn't end this way.
buffsgirl
# buffsgirl 2012-03-18 00:13
Sorry sweetondean. Was trying to quote you but, I guess I did it wrong. :oops:
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-03-18 01:01
Oh but I sooo want it to end like that. How can we make this happen? ;-)
TeresaPezzino
# TeresaPezzino 2012-03-19 12:30
Here is how this happens: A rift between universes created by the bad guys (Leviathans or whomever) opens and is about to destroy their world. With assistance from Sheriff Jodi Mills, Sam and Dean turn the Impala into a powerful bomb. Arm the bomb, "we've got work to do", close the trunk, get in the car, eye the firestorm gauntlet they are about to drive and shoot their way through, look at each other, "By the way, here's the Samulet" "Thanks Sam", "Bitch", "Jerk", "See ya on the other side". Fight their way through, drive into the rift, giant explosion (blaze of glory), rift is sealed, world is saved. Cut to several years later, Sheriff Mills with new husband and child, "Mama, tell me another story about Sam and Dean. They were heroes, right?" "Yes, they were heroes".
Fade to black.....until ....Supernatura l Movie - ESCAPE FROM PURGATORY.
Nitewoman7
# Nitewoman7 2012-03-18 03:11
Really interesting Endverse eting comments here love the episode. I thought Endverse was a terrific idea I had no trouble following your thought process BUT like a lot here I don't like that ending. I'll still holding out for Dean and Sam to get to live a normal life as old men :) Dean finding Lisa and Sam finding what's her name from Providence Perfect way to end my fav show!
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-03-18 04:20
The Endverse is going to be one with puppies and ponies. And two rescue donkeys. Sam and Dean will live by a river so Dean can go fishing when he wants and also so that the boys can go swimming whenever the desire takes them. This means that they can go swimming in something other than jeans and jackets. (It will be a strange experience for them but I think they’ll like it.)

Sam and Dean’s house will have a porch and a large garden in the back so that Sam can grow his own fruit and vegetables. They will save a fortune on those ‘Salad Shakes’ that taste like mouldy shite. They will also keep two chickens. The idea behind this is that in the future, said chickens will be lunch. However, Sam and Dean purchased the only two chickens in the world with puppy dog eyes and so they won't be able to bring themselves to eating them. Milly (Sam’s chicken) and Jackass (Dean’s chicken) will live long and happy lives providing daily protein for the brothers.

Sam and Dean’s house will be located next to a pie shop. The pie shop owner will think Dean is 'lovely' (she’s about 94 so Dean is safe from groping) so she bakes pies where she puts M&M’s into the crust. The M&M’s do not melt in the oven (because M&M’s only melt in the mouth) so that the pie always retains a crunchy, chocolate flavour.

Bobby’s ghost will leave daily presents of bottles of beer for the boys. However, when Dean decides to go on a health kick ghostBobby substitutes the beer for a glass of cool boiled water with lemon every morning. This shows that Bobby takes care of the boys, even in death.

Hunting will be a thing of the past. They will still keep guns and knives because the boys look hot cleaning them. Also, many chick flick moments will be had over the cleaning of the weapons. However, Sam and Dean will have developed such a reputation that ghosts now burn their own bones and demons learn off exorcisms rather than face the boys.

When they eventually die (of natural causes, at the same time, many, many years from now) Sam and Dean will be reunited in heaven (and they’ll be going straight there, no pit stops along the way) with John and Mary and Jessica and Bobby and Adam and Jo and Ellen and Rufus and Ash and Bones and maybe even Lisa and they will all live happily ever after.
Karen
# Karen 2012-03-18 10:44
Now that's an ending I could live with. :D
I wouldn't mind being the 94 year old Pie Shop owner...but I guess I should learn to make them first. :-*
Thanks for the giggles Tim!
digyd
# digyd 2012-03-18 20:17
Hmm, so a future where they live to be old and have each other but no real love lives? That's as depressing as succumbing to Luci's version of the world after all they have gone through. :-) Generally lovely idea, Tim, but if they can't have peace and their own families on Earth, then I vote for Butch and Sundance go directly to heaven and get to be with their loved ones in eternity. My hope, though, is that these writers find a road no one thought of and manage to come up with an ending we all can live with.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-03-19 05:27
It will not just be themselves digyd, they would also get a goat....

digyd, apart from the fact that the post was slightly tongue in cheek (M&M’s do unfortunately melt in the oven), the core sentiment behind the post remains the same. I’m not overly keen on a Butch and Sundance ending. I know it would be dramatic and romantic and whatnot but it means that Sam and Dean would have died without ever actually having lived. What Sam and Dean have at the moment, it’s not life. It’s the shell of a life, it’s survival, nothing more. Hanging on, waiting (hoping?) for it to end bloody is not living, not to me.

I’d love for the boys to have an opportunity to just sit, relax, look out on the beauty of the world and think ‘You know, we did this’. I'd like for them to feel safe in the knowledge that they can talk to a stranger without having to worry about 'Christo' or tricking them into drinking holy water. I'd like for them to be able to talk to a stranger for no other reason than the simple pleasure of talking to a stranger, someone who isn't a witness or a monster, just a person. I'd like for them to be able to live without having to worry about unfinished business or the next end of the world or getting their throats ripped out.

I’m also one of the few who believe that family for Sam and Dean is solely Sam and Dean and it is, and will remain that way, by choice (in a non-wincesty way, shudder...) I firmly believe that Sam and Dean will not marry, and they will not have children. Now this is not because they are not the marrying type or because they wouldn't make great fathers but how on earth could they raise a family given that the scars of that type of life run so deep for both of them?

How would they raise a family? Would they ready them for what is still out there as John did, or would they simply live the apple pie life and hope that evil will stay away from them, like Dean did? Sam has demon blood in him. We don't know that it is gone so I’m sure that will always prey on his mind when the question of children comes up. The Winchesters have been magnets for evil their entire lives. I’m sure they will bear that in mind when thinking about long-term relationships.

Add to that, angels and demons have not gone away. Lucifer has not gone away. The Apocalypse has not gone away. Should Sam and Dean further the Winchester family line then there is always the possibility that their progeny will be future Michael & Lucifer vessels and I can’t see the boys allowing that to happen. They would not allow anyone else to go through what they went through. The cycle will stop with them. The line of vessels will stop with them. The Winchester family line will end with them.

Like I said, it's not dramatic or romantic but for me, it is living and it is peace and it is contentment, and given what the brothers have lived through so far, I kinda think they’re entitled to a little bit of it.
digyd
# digyd 2012-03-19 11:42
I know it's tongue in cheek, Tim. No worries. ;-)

Hoooooowever, you want them to sit back and relax and know "we did this." That sounds like the danger is gone in your scenario. Is it?
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-03-19 16:10
Quote:
That sounds like the danger is gone in your scenario. Is it?
I don't think anyone is naive enough to believe that the danger will ever be gone. Even after Sam and Dean are gone, there will always be other hunts but..... there will also always be other hunters.

Now I know watching a TV show about other hunters would suck but I don't think it can always fall to Sam and Dean. How many times do they need to save the world before they think they’re entitled to stop, rest and process all they have accomplished, take a bit of pride in all they have done and just be happy in and of themselves?

I just want them at peace and growing turnips, for feck sake!

(Now that being said, if they were guaranteed a place in heaven together, I'd throw the two of them off a cliff right now but until such time as that is certain, I'd like them healthy and happy please.)
digyd
# digyd 2012-03-19 16:26
lol! Then I think we have reached an accord, because in my scenario, they are guaranteed to be at peace together in heaven (angels are barred from trying to use them as puppets ever again) and they are either with or easily able to reach the friends and family who went before them. They can start out in your scenario and end up in mine, happy, blissful the entire time. ;-)
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-03-19 20:35
Ok, your goat comment cracked me up!! But what exactly is the the goat's role with no women I'm having visions that are as bad as wincest.

I DO think they are guaranteed a place in heaven, because if Sam got there right after setting Luci free I'm sure he'll get there after sacrificing himself for the world.

That said I want them to have some peace, before they go as well. They've definitely earned it. And especially if heaven is just a Memorex of your life I want them to have a lot more good memories to fill it up.

Again the sappy fangirl would love to see them that families, but I don't think that is likely either but for different reason. I just doubt they'd risk other people getting hurt by bringing them into their world.
But I think their wrong I think A LOT of women would risk to A LOT more to be with either of them. Even with Dean's drinking and Sam's crack melon, Let's face it, they're both still a catch. And I am with Sarah from Provence that life is risk, you're going to die no matter how cautiously you live.

As for the vessels, that could have already happened anyway. Because as Slice Girls showed Dean, accidents happen and he has never been a monk and neither was Robo-Sam. That dude got AROUND. We have no idea how cautious he was being. So there could already be a little Sam and Dean out there.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-03-20 03:57
Quote:
But what exactly is the the goat's role...
For milk and cheese, KELLY. Milk and cheese. What if they want to make scrambled eggs, you can’t do that with just eggs. You need milk. Just add in some of the red onion and peppers that Sam will have grown in his garden into the eggs Milly and Jackass have provided and you’ve a meal fit for a king. Add a hamburger into it and you’ve got a meal fit for Dean. (I think I need to stop because I fear I've given this way too much thought.)

I wish I had your faith about Sam (and I guess now Dean) and heaven. I still believe that the ‘heaven’ as we saw it in Dark Side of the Moon was conceived by the angels to get Dean to break. The memories in it seem so contrived and I find it hard to believe that Dean’s best memories didn’t include Sam coming back from the dead. Ditto with Sam. No room in the happy memories box for the memory of Dean getting out of hell or any with Jessica, the woman he was going to marry?

Add to that, in the interim, Sam has housed Lucifer and we know the angels are a very judgmental bunch of fecking fecks. We saw the derision that Sam was treated with by Uriel in It’s the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester (and he hadn’t even done anything at that stage!). Even Castiel treated him with a huge degree of scepticism, and he was the nice angel!

I don’t think Dean has fared much better. He swore to serve the angels and then y’know, didn’t. He rejected Michael and I’m not entirely au fait on the criteria that will keep you out of heaven but I’m fairly sure that killing an angel is one of them....

I dunno, maybe Sam and Dean should start thinking about finding a back door into the place.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-03-20 09:55
I agree with much of this and I'll raise you one. I have always believed the "heaven" in DSOTM was manipulated to break Dean because of all your arguments. The reality that this is how it works, is supported in The Man Who Would Be King, when Castiel says the heaven he likes to visit is a certain Tuesday of an autistic man. However, Sam and Dean KNOW that heaven is simply Memorex, an eternity of essentially watching the same movies over and over again. It's not even a fulfilling as the Holodeck on the Enterprise. NOTHING changes from the memories. I can't see Sam or Dean being satisfied by this type of eternity, forever trapped in a dream they don't really control. They could join Ash and watch heaven, but still they would be perpetually be outsiders, knowing the happy times are manufactured pablum. Once the reality of heaven was revealed to them, I can't see it being a happy good place for them. Heck, if I believed that was what heaven truly was, I would consider finding a way to obliterate my soul. I've had some good times in my life, but really how many times can I relive them?

I also don't know if Sam at least will be welcome in Heaven after housing Lucifer. To misquote Damon on Vampire Diaries "Angels are judgy little things." You mention Uriel, but even more judgmental was Joshua who made it quite clear that in his opinion God was being very gracious (and a little wacky) to let Sam in "after what you did". Furthermore, during Zachariah's manipulation, it was made abundantly clear that some of Sam's happy memories ticked Dean off. I know that Sam has happy memories of Dean, but certainly the ones from his childhood are mixed with his unhappiness with the life they were leading. Certainly some of Sam's best memories involve becoming independent. In any case, in DSOTM Dean was seriously hurt and pissed when Sam's good memories didn't include him. With Ash making the point that the boys were soulmates and would share heaven, Sam would be put in the position either avoiding parts of his life that made him happy or savoring them and hurting Dean. In contrast, the memories that Dean held dear of his childhood didn't hurt Sam, even though they were a part of his history that he never got to participate in. Sam is kind of screwed even if he makes heaven. Even though I think Dean could now accept Sam's memories, they have been colored by Dean's reaction in heaven and then by showing Sam how badly he was hurt by throwing away the amulet and rejecting Sam for the part that didn't include Dean.

Dean might get a pass, but your point that he defied the plan probably will weigh against him. Plus, Dean and possibly Sam must have become the Snake of Genesis to the Angels. They sweet talked Castiel into betraying Heaven's plan and he eventually killed at least half of his brothers all because he metaphorically ate the apple of truth that Dean presented to him.

So in the end, I'm not only uncertain if Sam and Dean will make it into heaven, I'm not certain they want to. Maybe the show will go with the American Gods idea, where Sam and Dean eventually become such legends that instead of dying they become the Gods of Hunting. Showing up when evil appears and Hunters need them. Dean finding joy in wine, women and song. Sam finding joy in research, good coffee a few significant relationships. The only sacrifice they need is for a human to take up hunting and continue the good fight. I see them riding the world in a magical Impala with the wind in their hair, and playing prank wars, and "having work to do". They will exist as long as there is evil to fight and humans willing to fight it.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-03-20 12:58
Whew. I was worried about that goat.

I think you and percysowner are right about heaven being manipulated by the angels to push Dean in the direction they wanted him to go.(Those probably were good memories for Sam but I'm sure it wasn't accident that the only ones Dean saw would hurt him) But Cas seem to confirm that heaven was past memories both in that episode and in The Man Who Be King. And I think Joshua was telling the truth, as he knew it, about God granting them entrance. And I think he will again. He's obviously a fan of team free will. He brought Cas back -twice. And put the boys on soul plane. I think he approved of their actions even if the angels don't. He seems to have the ultimate stay on who gets in.

I'm with you on not being a fan of SPN's idea of heaven though. I mean what if you had an extremely horrible life with basically no pleasant memories, just less horrible ones. That would suck. (Although still better than the alternative)

But here's how I see the boys in heaven. First, track down Ash. Have him teach them his mojo on both how to get around and how to interact with memories that aren't yours(because Ash acted as if he did). Then Hunt down Bobby, Mom, Dad, Jess, Ellen, Jo, Rufus etc. and have a family reunion.

Next, go explore heaven with whoever wants to go. It would be like exploring history. Dean could do the Kama Sutra guy's heaven while Sam goes and visits Ghandi and then meet up again to go back to the old west. (Since this is heaven it could now live up to Dean's expectation-hop efully).
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-03-19 05:01
So, so much laughter!!! :D
buffsgirl
# buffsgirl 2012-03-18 14:09
OK..... I say we start a grassroots campaign and tell the show creators that we, the fans, get to decide how the show ends. Whaddaya say??
Ardeospina
# Ardeospina 2012-03-18 16:51
Glad I stirred up some hornets with this Endverse theory. After watching the preview for next week's episode, I'm really curious to see if it's going to push us in that direction or totally Kripke my theory.
Irene
# Irene 2012-03-19 04:16
I do not like the End-verse option to Supernatural. Mainly because of the frustration that there is no free will and Sam and Dean and all the other hunters have only been fooling themselves. To me, that is not worthy of the heroism and courage that Sam and Dean and their friends/hunters face every time they fight evil. Sam and Dean are flawed heroes. They are on their life journeys, doing what they are best at and have been trained to do-fight evil and keep on fighting. That involves free will. What is the point of having 7 seasons of that belief blown with an End-verse scenario. I hate the idea that they "have to die bloody". Bobby for a long time helped other hunters with information and knowledge. Sam would be great doing that job now that Bobby is gone. And Dean would be great as a trainer for new hunters. If the fight against the Leviathans goes global, training camps and recruits would be necessary. I wonder what happens to the rest of the Leviathans when Dick Roman gets killed-do they all die or do they fight among themselves for a new leader. If the later, then the fight will be ongoing. Unless some general thing can be used to kill them all - disease, cleaning fluid, whatever.
Anyway, I will sign the petition to get the writers to end the series as the fans want. And I hope there is a season eight. I just have not had enough of the story of Sam and Dean.
racestaffer
# racestaffer 2012-03-22 22:36
Ah. All the posts have been read {grin}.

I spin SPN spec a lot. Like... a lot alot (LOL). Mostly it's a bit like blowing bubbles or perhaps finding shapes in the clouds on a lazy summer afternoon. I don't concern myself with matters of accuracy; the spec is more about the journey than the destination. So when I post about spec (at my usual haunt), I'll signify the specs I feel more strongly about by expressing my virtual willingness to bet money on them. I'm not much of a gambler or generic risk taker by nature.

Over the years there have been a handful of specs I've been willing to bet on, of which a very, very small set have been ones you don't just believe in your mind, you feel them all over as if every muscle was tightening. Of the two I'd say I've felt the most strong about, one has already happened. I don't remember how long it took me, after Mystery Spot aired, but I'm pretty sure that well before Season 4 started I was betting on the return of Trickster. All that season, folks thought I was nuts but my belief never waivered. Season 5 started and I still knew it would happen one day and I just appeared all the more crazy. And then it happened... Changing Channels {grin}.

Perhaps you're guessing where I'm going with this. And this time I remember much better how long it took me to form my spec. Before the credits rolled on The End I was saying, we're gonna to come back to this some day. This is going to be "semi-prophetic "... like Mystery Spot. I doubt I even waited for the blog review of the episode to be posted before I hit the keyboard, either in an email to my friend or maybe one to myself (my version of ePost-It Notes).

Of course, as I said... I expected it to be *semi* prophetic. Minimally, I held out some hope that WhiteSam wouldn't actually be "Sam" the next time around. Notice I'm not going with the more standard Samifer. I don't think what we saw going on there was what it appeared to be. In fact, I think that's true on a couple of levels of spec... circling the Earth" spec and "out there" spec (LOL). Let me confine myself to the spec that is closest to ground level... but know that the two "flavors" of spec can happily coexist on the screen.

Going back to the roots of the show, I had a sense that Sam and Dean were somewhat "of cross purposes" with respect to the natural and supernatural worlds. Sam was a lost and angry soul when it came to his relationship with the biological God the Father and the Divine Word that was John's journal. But when it came to the spiritual... the supernatural parallel, Sam was a young man of faith. He believed in faith healers, in angels doing the work of the spiritual God the Father. Without question, Dean's relationship with John the Father was nearly the opposite of Sam's. And although the Team never had Dean exhibit the same level of resentment of God that Sam showed towards John, especially in the early years, loosely at least, the brother showed antiparallel relationships. My sense was that Sam needed to find reconciliation with John and Dean likely needed to make peace with God... the Father who works in such mysterious ways.

In the discussions here about The End, someone mentioned "the garden." Is that what it was? As I watched that scene unfold I saw a broken man in a cemetery, raging against God... or Death... or both. WhiteSam... White the color of Easter lillies, ghostly death... and also (re)birth.

"I know what you are!"
"What am I?"

Yes, what *was* WhiteSam?

The one interpretation I took from The End that I'm not liking much, sexist that I apparently am, is my sense that WhiteSam was channeling a female God and/or Death... Mary perhaps and/or Hel of Norse mythology? But it would fit with a number of other pieces of the puzzle including bits of "out there" spec I have. Of course, when I say that, I'm talking about different "out there" spec than what I alluded to earlier in the post (LOL).

Anyway, to tally up the parallels between where we are at right now and The End... Sam said yes to Lucifer in Detroit. Check. Baby hasn't seen action in a while. Check. Bobby appears to have been shot dead. Someone asked about this earlier. Bobby never appeared in The End and we saw his wheelchair with a bullet hole in it suggesting Bobby was probably dead from a gunshot wound. So... check. Dean is developing an obssessive frame of mind. Check. And the garden (the one from ManKing?) or cemetery (DeadThings? WIaWNSB? ThenNone?) was outside an asylum, wasn't it? Hmmmmm...

All of this, in turn, poses an interesting question. I actually spec'ed about this general idea at the time even though I had no idea a race of shape-shifters would become the next great scourge. Remember... in The End we didn't have just one Dean, we had two. So as a teaser for some "out there" spec if your imagination is inclined to go there... keep that in mind if anything jaw-dropping goes down with Dean like him killing someone he loves or killing himself {grin}.
racestaffer
# racestaffer 2012-03-22 22:52
Oh yeah... Lisa and Ben are not in the picture. Also check. Season 7's Garth may take the role of The End's Chuck or HumanCas. Sam may take the other of those two roles. Cas's role in Season 7 will be different from Season 5. Cas is going to wind up playing the WhiteSam role. And perhaps Jodi Mills will be the dark haired gal of FutureDean's diversionary/sa crifical lamb squad.
racestaffer
# racestaffer 2012-03-22 22:54
And notice I keep talking about roles.
Again... I point that out just in case you want to let your imagination loose and conjure up some "out there" spec - hee.