TV Guide Robert Singer Interview - MAJOR Supernatural Season 8 Spoilers
Saturday, 07 July 2012 19:27 | Last Updated on Sunday, 08 July 2012 23:31 | Written by Alice Jester | 
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I was able today to get hold of an advanced copy to the Comic-Con Special Edition of TV Guide. My copy has the gorgeous Winchester Brothers on both the front and back cover, Dean in front in the front cover and Sam in front on the back. The magazine features some big sections for "The Big Bang Theory," "Fringe," "The Vampire Diaries," "Person of Interest," "Nikita," "Children's Hospital," and of course "Supernatural," as well as previews for new shows "666 Park Avenue," "Arrow," "Revolution," "Cult," "The Following," and plenty of DC animation.
The "Supernatural" section is 8 pages long. It features the following:
- "Blood Brothers" - an interview with Jared and Jensen by Ileane Rudolph (no spoilers)
- "The Many Faces of Evil" - a look at the "Supernatural villains by Ileane Rudolph
- "Blood/Alcohol Content" - a breakdown of shooting the swordfight scene with the Shojo in "Party on Garth" by John Hogan
- "The Devil Is In The Details" - a "Supernatural" trivia quiz by Alice Jester (gee, I wonder who that could be???)
- "Burning Questions" - a season 8 preview interview with executive producer Robert Singer by Ileane Rudolph
All of these are a blast to read, but this is the Spoiler page. Only one coughs up what you're looking for. Spoilers! I'll share the interview in full on Wednesday when Comic Con starts, but here's the highlights of the Robert Singer interview in which he shares some very spoilery details. Total, full credit for these spoilers and exclusive rights goes to Ileane Rudolph and TV Guide. Anything is quotes is from Robert Singer.
- Will season 8 hinge on Sam trying to save Dean from Purgartory? "No," Singer answers. An amount of time passes before Dean finds his way back from Purgatory (not specified how long). They're planning on doing various flashbacks through the season showing what happened and what Sam did in that time while Dean was away.
- Why use flashbacks? Because fans usually hate it when the brothers are separated, so that's why they're being reunited quickly.
- What about Castiel? They're still framing that out, but Cas will be back a number of times.
- Will Kevin the Prophet be back? "Kevin is an integral part of the year."
- What does Crowley want with Kevin? The King of Hell needs someone to read the word of God. "Every year we start with a theme -- this is our "Raiders of The Lost Ark" year. This season-long story will be a quest. It's about Kevin and the tablets and the Word of God."
- They would like guest characters like Sheriff Mills, Charlie and Garth back, but nothing is concrete yet. "And there's one new character that we're talking about. It's a monster that Dean meets in Purgatory."
- Who will be the big bad this season? It's another angels and demons year. "It's not apocalyptic but about who can gain control and keep demons in Hell or angels in Heaven."
- I know a lot of you have been waiting for this answer. I'll share the whole thing:
Former producer Jeremy Carver, who exec produced the U.S verison of Being Human, is returning to Supernatural as your new co-showrunner. Will fans notice anything different?
"No. Jeremy gave us a couple of years on the show, so I do think this season will be a little less earnest and a little more the kind of stuff we did in Seasons 2 and 3, before the weight of all the mythology got us."
Okay, start speculating! I'm 100% certain more details will be surfacing in the next week, especially next Sunday (July 15th) when "Supernatural" has it panel at Comic-Con, but here's your start.
For all the latest Supernatural info and article links, follow The Winchester Family Business on Twitter at @WinFamBusiness
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Comments
I hope it's better than I'm thinking from this.
I was hoping against hope that at least this time the writers had enough sense to let Sam save Dean, but it doesn't look like it - again - and I see a lot of Sam-hate coming right at the beginning of Season 8 already.
Also we're somewhat back to the angels. They can't seem to find anything else that does not involve heaven or hell. I guess that's because they don't know how else to involve Cas (one more reason why I wish they let go of this character).
They want the bring back all the other side-characters from S7 but nothing is concrete yet. Shows again that they want to force involve certain characters because of their poluparity and not because they have a certain story for them which makes me fear that they will build the story around a side-character just to fit him/her in. It didn't work too well in S7. The result of this was that we had more story going on around a side-character as actually for Sam/Dean.
I know I asked for the spoilers, but now I wish I'd lived in ignorant bliss for a a little longer, cuz unfortunately none of the spoiler's above made me excited about S8
To me this Quote:
Especially Quote:
Coupled with
Quote:
Reeks of brave Dean battles his way out of Purgatory while Sam (from previous spoilers) cavorts with a wary, strong, sarcastic, brave female Doctor and twiddles his thumbs. I've already lived through Sam doesn't love Dean and didn't do anything to rescue him once, in season four. I won't sit through that again. I decided my line in the sand is Sam has to rescue or play the major part in rescuing Dean. Dean deserves to help save himself, but Sam has to be the primary mover. Castiel need not apply. These spoilers say season four all over again with a traumatized Dean and a mysterious Sam who may be going dark for the 4,362 time. Cas will be who knows what, but what with Purgatory flashbacks and Sam getting a girlfriend, I now expect Dean to rise from Purgatory declaring that Castiel became his BFF in Purgatory, saving him time and again and Sam is no longer his brother.
I hope I'm wrong, but really, I'm half way out the door already. I'm going to watch. I'm going to see what comes out of Comic Con then I will try to go cold turkey on spoilers, because right now, it is looking like Sam fails to come to the rescue once again. If I'm wrong, great. If not, I will either revise how I watch this show or bail. I didn't blame the Cas fans who bailed when his role was reduced. You watch what makes you happy. Sam as a failure/going dark/putting sex before Dean AGAIN will not make me happy.
Also, Dean would never disown Sam, for crying out loud, and especially not (as you seem to imply) because Cas is his new bff. (Cas is his *old* bff, in the first place, like Bobby said. Who knows what they are now, since they're struggling to rebuild the trust they shared until Cas worked with Crowley and went nova.)
It's totally up to you whether you want to stop watching, but I would encourage you to trust the writers and Jeremy C. They're doing their best to make Supernatural a good story. Let's see what they give us, ey?
Seven season of Sam being wrong no matter what he does is plenty. He doesn't kill John and is wrong. He doesn't give into Azazel's desires and is wrong. He doesn't save Dean from the Deal or from Hell. He releases Lucifer. He dives into the Cage and then he come back soulless and does horrible things. He gets his soul back and is not allowed to make amends for fear of breaking his wall. He faces the torment of the Cage to save Dean and fails because Cas is too strong. He then sails through life without a care in the world while constantly hallucinating Lucifer, and then his insanity gets transferred to Castiel so that a real story about insanity can be told with an important character. Finally he loses Dean to Purgatory and takes up with the brave, wary, sarcastic strong Mary Sue, I mean Dr. Amelia, quite possibly while Dean is still in Purgatory. Where is there ANY goodness in Sam? Where does he ever make the right choice, or save anyone or anything? Stopping the Apocalypse was nice, but his actions while soulless were so bad that Lucifer looked good. I am done with the Sam failures and the Sam bashing. And all the spoilers indicate is more Sam is a failure storyline.
Very well said, you're right about Sam he only ever wanted to do good and right things. But as the saying goes the road to hell is paved with good intentions, Sam made mistakes just like Dean has, they aren't perfect and DON"T always know what they are doing despite what some people on here think
I will disagree however, that Sam has been bashed alot. To me, Sam has always been both implied and shown , to be the one who's important, the one who's stronger, better in every way. That fact that he's made mistakes doesn't take away from that. They've both made big mistakes. I feel it's Dean who has been said to be weaker, rusty, not a important as Sam, not as loved by his family, although John's season 2 E1 sacrifice nullified that. I love both Sam and Dean.
At least you can be happy that Sam get's a recurring love interest this season 8, which I'm happy for. Dean usually only gets one night stands, save for Lisa.
And when Percy mentioned bashing, she's referring to the fans. I think it will be a big mistake and will do further damage to Sam if he's shown to be hooking up w/some woman while Dean suffers in Purgatory. It will look as if Sam doesn't care about Dean. EDGs already accuse Sam of not loving Dean as much as Dean loves Sam. I'd think Sam would be entirely focused on saving Dean like he was in Mystery Spot rather than hooking up w/someone. Sam will be blasted on the boards if this happens! I will have to stay away when this airs.
Admittedly, I was very disappointed w/Sam's actions in Season 4, but I never started hating him. As you said, some in the fandom have hated him ever since. I don't see that changing no matter what Sam does.
You know what, my favorite is Time and Time again when we are shown Sam working his ass off, with the help of Sheriff Mills, to find the monster that took Dean. Then we are being shown the teamwork that these two hunters do. Dean sending message and Sam chasing the witness and putting down the spell. They manage it in low scale and it works, the fans love it. Why not Purgatory? I just want Sam, at least succeed in doing something, in his effort to save Dean. Just write that pleaseeeee!!!!
I agree... This is the thing in the plot that disturbs me the most. I love both Winchesters but I wish they write Sam succeeds in saving Dean. Or at least putting a ground light or a beacon or something that SIGNIFICANT and Very Important as a mean for Dean to fight to get topside. What I want is the teamwork like in "Time and Time and Time again".
I don't understand what's so wrong with "brave Dean" battling his way out of Purgatory? In fact, I think Dean needs to battle his way out... he needs to gain some confidence in himself again. Dean needs to prove to himself that he can battle his way out. After being beaten down emotionally with his despair and guilt and depression for the past couple of seasons, I think Dean deserves a storyline where he can control his own destiny and one that focuses on Dean's strengths and confidence in his own abilities.
So I totally disagree that if the show allows Dean to battle his way out on his own, that this is a bad thing. I also don't think that it will reflect poorly on Sam. Just as I never thought the fact that Dean did not save Sam from the Cage should reflect poorly on Dean.
Oh and by the way, Dean was never shown in any flashbacks trying to save Sam from the Cage, although from spoilers on the episode Jensen is directing, it seems that we will see flashbacks to the time Dean was still in Purgatory, and I would imagine the flashbacks will include Sam trying to save Dean.
As for Castiel, I get the impression that he isn't with Dean in Purgatory. I think he may have been pulled out, maybe by Crowley? Anyway, Sam will always be the most important person in Dean's life, regardless of whether he is able to save him from Purgatory or not.
I hope it works out better than it sounds, but I wished I had lived in ignorance, too.
Right there with you. I really want to give Season 8 a fair chance and go in with no biases. And the more I hear, the harder that's becoming. Of course, the more I brace myself now, the softer the fall will be. So, I don't know. Like percy, I might see how Comic-Con goes and quit spoilers after that.
As soon as the season finale finished I became so beyond excited for the 8th season because I had this theory in my head that we would see Dean and Cas hunting things and saving each other and working things out while Sam is back on earth going insane without Dean at his side, trying to bring him back. But now? All that excitement is gone. :( This is why I need to stay away from spoilers...
Supernatural has never truly disappointed me and I'm afraid for the very first time it will. I hope I eat my words when the 8th season airs.
when the show ends, it'll still be the story of sam and dean. that's how supernatural started, that's how it'll end.
The biggest change that I wanted to see is that Sam and Dean are the leads in the show. I could care less about Kevin Tran, and I don't want to see the Kevin Tran Show where HE is an integral part of the mytharc. I had quite enough of the support characters taking over the show, and the brothers dragging the stereotypical Asian teenager around while on their quest doesn't do a thing for me.
I could care less about Jodie Mills, a sheriff in South Dakota, running all over the country to help the brothers just as an excuse to have her on the show again.
I definitely never wanted to see Garth, the village idiot, be called on to help the supposedly super hunters, Sam and Dean.
I hope there was a terrible accident with that bus Charlie Day was on and she quirky danced her way to oblivion. The only part of that episode that was good was Dean teaching the 30-year old gay girl to flirt with a guy, because we all know that gay women don't know how to flirt.
While all of the actors for these characters were good and I definitely know the value of support characters in a show, I didn't find these characters very compelling. (Except for Jodie Mills who, I believe, served a purpose when initially brought in, but S7's episode was just an excuse to use her again.)
I was initially super excited that Jeremy was brought in and assumed that it was because TPTB recognized that change was most definitely needed, so I'm hoping that Singer is just being his usual low-key little self and we do see a lot of change. Continuing with old home week episodes, especially when they are looking for stories to shoehorn these support character in, does not instill any confidence in the writers, who I thought did a lot of phoning in last season and gave every indication that they had lost interest in the Winchesters and their story.
Quoting Ginger:
That's just it though. He said it will change little but be more like seasons 2-3. For it to be like those seasons it would HAVE to change dramatically.
I'm sad that it doesn't look like it's Sam who will save Dean this time either, though. And a bit worried about this monster that Dean will meet. I don't want another Alastair.
I definitely wouldn't hate it, and nor would many other fans. I'm more than happy to see Dean and Sam spend some time apart.
Doesn't look like cas is down there with Dean. It doesn't say that he is, only that he appears in a few episodes. He did disappear at the end of the finale, didn't Robert say Crowley had something to do with his disappeance? So, I think it's Dean stuck there by him self facing the monsters alone
wanderingthroughpurgatory.tumblr.com/
catboatventure.tumblr.com/
There are more, but these two are the ones I visit most regularly. :)
But many fans, many, want to see Sam and Dean. It's what SPN is all about after all, it defines the show.
I prefer the opposite. Separated by time and space but still together in heart and soul and working in sync with only relating on instinct and a sense of togetherness that they've been developed since the pilot.
Personally, I would hate it if the main story this season would have Dean and Cas in Purgatory and Sam separated from Dean. This would not be Supernatural for me. For me Supernatural is watching the boys fighting together. I don't know how paraphrased this part "Why use flashbacks? Because fans usually hate it when the brothers are separated, so that's why they're being reunited quickly." is, but it makes feel good, because the writers seem to have understood that fans hate it when the brothers are apart. I really suffered from the lack of the brotherly bond the last two seasons and I hope that Jeremy Carver will bring it back.
But when they are ALWAYS together there is no character development. They have developed as far as they can together. Being separated for 2-3 episodes is not going to completely destroy their relationship.
I never saw a lack of brotherly bond in the show, because I can't. Dean and Sam are never apart. I can't think of a season where Dean and Sam have not been unhealthily obsessed with one another.
And does no one remember the phrase, "Absence makes the heart grow fonder." In the first episode if Dean and Sam have the huge brotastic hug, WHO CARES? They were apart for viewers for what, 15 minutes? Wouldn't a separation make their reuniting actually interesting and emotional?
Sam and Dean needs to have a chance to do this. To learn new things and go on an albeit short adventure. What could two grown men who have been together nearly 24-7 for years have to say/learn about each other that is new? Let them go on separate vacations! At least then Sam and Dean can talk about their trips to Jamaica and the Grand Canyon with each other.
And the writers are creative, and if you think Sam and Dean's relationship is becoming stale, I don't see it but it's ok it's your opinion, I have hope that Jermery will bring that spark back in to their relationship that has been kind of missing the last two seasons.
Most people who watch Supernatural realize that we'll be seeing the brothers together in basically every episode. That's the entire premise of the show. That cannot, and should not, change. And like ME said below, while that might be unhealthy in "real" life, it's fine to me in "reel" life.
I'm not saying I want them together 24/7, but I don't want them separated, doing different things (like when Sam quit hunting, or when Dean had to leave Sam hunt on his own to run to Lisa etc)
If the writers want to, they can make the characters develop without separating them. I find nothing unhealthy in their relationship and that's the reason I love the show, because I love their relationship!
P.S. From personal experience, I think that this phase "Absence makes the heart grow fonder" is one of the most stupid things a person has ever said... I really hate it...
Many feel there was no bond btw Sam and Dean for the first half of S6 b/c Sam was soulless and completely not himself. I loved SS but he wasn't "Sam." I felt the bond more in the second half of the season, but Sam, in my opinion, was pushed to the background in the 2nd half. Plus, there was the Wall in his head that couldn't be disturbed.
For me, the brothers were fine in Season 6. I felt the bond then and not b/c they were physically together.
This season - aside from TWO episodes (HCW and Plucky's), the boys have never, IMO, felt further apart from each other. This past season was ridiculously light on bonding moments/scenes. The boys felt more like strangers or co-workers than guys who would (and have) DIED for each other. They were together all this year, but weren't close or bonded. They weren't close, IMO, in Season 5 either. Season 4 started the separation.
I am more than ready to see the boys together and close like they were in some parts of Season 4 and the latter half of Season 6. This is the season where they should have been leaning on each other, etc., but the writers isolated them to their own plots. It was weird. Sam asked about Dean once, and Dean gave no concern to Sam or Sam's issues after HCW. Very odd.
Perhaps I remember wrong that Misha said (or is it someone?) that Castiel would be the bridge of communication between the two. I could go with that. Although, I don't really have too much respect for Castiel. He has his use. What I have in mind is few scenes of Dean fighting in Purgatory to find his way out WITH a beacon/something from Sam. And several scene of Sam making deals, hunting purgatory monster for a semblance of clue to send something for Dean.
Yes I agree that Dean has to fight his own way out and be the strong and badass Dean that we know and love come topside. But the most important I want them working together. I'm talking about teamwork. In Time and Time again although they are separated but we can feel their bond. We can feel Sam's desperation to get Dean and Dean sending message to Sam. That's beautiful in a low scale. I just want that shown in a bigger scale.
But nope, no Purgatory. :( More angels and demons instead, which... okay, I love them, so I shouldn't complain. But flashbacks, ugh.
It would be great to allow Dean and Sam to grow as individuals for a while before reuniting. It'd be great to get to see Dean have his own storyline that doesn't center around keeping Sam safe.
And it'd also be great to see Sam actually contact with people outside of Dean. Dean was always closer to side characters like Cas, Bobby, Ellen and Jo, so for this season to allow Sam to make friends would be a great change of pace.
Plus the pay off would be amazing, remember how wonderful it felt when the Impala came back? It'd be great to create suspense for when the boys finally meet again. Naturally this is all a pipe dream because of the whiners of fandom. :/
What do you mean? That is exactly what a large portion of what the fandom wants. I don't care that the show supposedly centres around the brother's bond, they need to develop and change, that doesn't mean they're no longer brothers. Dean alone in purgatory is sad as fuck, and I thought Castiel would work well with the character development that could workout while in purgatory.
If the boys are reunited at the start of the season, and they quest around trying to findout how, all while having flashbacks, it'll be boring and lame.
I am confused by this comment. You note that you wish they would stop letting fans "dictate" what they do on the show. And yet you go on to detail your opinion of what the show runners should be doing to make the show better. Is that not a fan "dictating" what should be done on the show?
The issue is you don't like the direction the show is taking and hey, I respect that opinion. But it doesn't make me a "whiner" if I say I don't like it when the boys spend episodes apart (i.e. when Dean sent Sam away/Sam quit hunting in season 5). We all watch the show for different reasons. We all have different opinions on what should happen and different ways we'd like to see the show go. Calling those with a different opinion a "whiner" just seems rude and breaks apart the fandom.
Maybe we'll get lucky and they will do an excellent job in the flashbacks showing Dean in purgatory and how both boys worked together (while separated) to get him out. I'm hoping for equal time to shine for both boys. I'm really just looking forward to the show being back. Even 8 seasons in, its still my favorite show on tv.
I, personally, had no desire to see Sam and Dean apart for half or an entire season. That's not Supernatural, IMO. The show is about two brothers, traveling the back roads and battling evil. It's not Dean/Cas's Adventures in Purgatory, and it isn't Sam's love affair show.
I have no problem w/the boys being apart for an episode or two, but I did fear they would be separated for half or the entire season. That's too much, IMO, and would be moving too far from the premise of the show.
Heeee... Agree Agreee Agreee 100 times agree!!! Separated for an episode or two is fine but please put a good writer to write those episode. The one who understand the brotherly bonds of Sam and Dean. Who can write them beautifully despite the separation. So, when they finally reunited we could all shed tears.
Well you're certainly whining! Whiners unite, I say.
These Castiel fans, though? They aren't. Look at what they''re planing:
http://destielcanoninmymind.tumblr.com/tagged/fandom-wank
And some are calling having the brother back together soon as a 'fan service'? After all they did until Castiel was brought back because of them? C'mon now. That is, in the last, hypocritical.
Y'know the same people who claim that s6&7 were all about Dean and his 'emotional storyline' while they believe Sam just sat around or something. Like the whole Soulless!Sam half of season 6 was just imagined, or Soulless!Sam running with the Campbells didn't happen, or had to deal with a wall that kept hell out of his brain.
You know what Dean did the last two seasons? Cry over a unrealistic relationship, react to everything happening to Sam, and drinking. Those aren't driven interesting stories. Dean finally has a chance to have a REAL, honest to God, storyline but they're just going to throw it away because separating him from Sam is some mortal sin or something. Dean's not allowed to have stories because making sure Sam!stans are happy is more important.
What Sam!Stans fail to realize is that this has a lot of opportunities for Sam to grow as well, but we'll never know because the Winchester's aren't allowed to be separate human beings.
I love the Winchester Duo as much as the next fan but season 7 showed how redundant having the two of them just roaming around in a car hunting has become. Having Sam branch out and do some networking with other hunters/people and Dean fighting in purgatory is far more interesting to me than the new writers (not Jeremy Carver but the writers who attempted writing s6&7) attempt at writing Sam&Dean's relationship.
These are the same people who cry foul when focus gets on Dean for a while. None of the story lines Dean is given are ever followed through by Dean himself. When Dean fans speak out about this nothing happens, when Sam fans speak out the writer's do something about it. People who were really fans of both brothers would want them both to get storylines that progress their characters.
I have faith in Jeremy to fix the mess that Sera created the last two years, but I find it a wasted opportunity to not explore the two characters separated from each other and then given an epic reunion of badassery.
I think you will be suprised though. Extreme Sam fans actually want a storyline specifically about Sam that does not revolve around Dean. Where Dean isn't part of it. Many extreme Sam fans just want to find out more about Sam. i think generally the fans who want the show to be about Dean and Sam like it was in the first two seasons, because their relationship was cute back then, if we can't have that, then I vouch for a reconnect with the brothers in a mature way.
In the end its the writers decision. For instance, I just was in other sites where fans are upset because they think fan service played a part in the brothers being reunited. I don't see it as fan service, but thats just me. I am sure those same fans probably don't think there was fan serivce at hand in keeping Cas around, but to me he is still around for fan service, but that's just me. The show hinges on the brothers relationship and bond, they need that for the show, and possibly their relationship would have been stronger if they were separated for a bit, but I won't be shy in saying I am happy they are quickly reunited. I don't know, as fans we are passionate, but I am going to wait and see how the episodes are at first before I really complain
I'm bi-bro. I love both brothers equally, and I was never excited about Purgatory. And that's not because I don't want Dean to have a storyline (Dean's always had a storyline in my opinion but that's another conversation). I am sick of the brothers being separated. This past season, they were emotionally separated and distant even though they were physically together and had no problems with each other. I fell in love with Supernatural because of the brothers and their relationship. I fell in love with the family dynamic. The show has never been about the mythology to me. It has been about family. That's why I watch.
Sam and Dean's relationship IS the heart of the show. I don't think their relationship is too close or claustrophobic. I'm fine with them having friends and allies. I also want to see them together hunting. That's the draw for me.
Maybe you only watch to see Dean and are sick of him being with his brother but I honestly think (and I have no stats to back me up) you are in the minority. I think the majority of fans want to see Sam and Dean together. And that doesn't mean they don't have friends/allies, but they are together "saving people, hunting things."
These spoilers sound awful to me. I couldn't care less about Kevin Tran, and I'm not sure if I like this tablet stuff. Like others, I also thought it would be nice to see Sam save Dean like he couldn't do in Season 3 but that's not gonna happen. And I'm not excited or interested in Sam's GF in any way, shape, or form. I was hoping they would have broadened the hunting world during the separation and given Sam some new hunters to roll with on occasion. Sam needs some friends. It would have been nice to see others seem him out as an established, well-respected hunter. Oh well. We can't always get what we want!
I'd like to see Dean as the one with the role of predominantly driving the myth-arc this time around. It sounds to me, from these spoilers, as if Kevin Tran is going to be gifted with that role, and I'll be deeply disappointed in Carver if it turns out that way.
I'm so not interested in seeing and watching Dean in a strictly and only supportive role yet again after watching him be stuck with that extremely limiting role for 6 of the 7 seasons of this show already-so that last bit in these spoilers is very discouraging to this fan, too. I DO think that what Singer said there can be taken a number of ways, though-so I'm not going to give up on Carver possibly still delivering on this Deanfan wish-a wish that has been long-held by many in the fandom(and not just Deanfans or EDGs), and that the PTBs must most certainly know about, at this point.
I'm sorry to say it but, from most of what I've read and seen, these spoilers seem to have really put the kibosh on all the rejuvenated fandom hopes for the new season that the s7 finale inspired. Too bad. Maybe some better stuff will come out of Comic Con. I sure do hope so.
Sounds simple but it would have been interesting to see if he met any other humans stuck in Purgatory or any of the creatures he "ganked." I was curious as to how Purgatory would be shown. Would it be like Earth in the sense that Dean could find food, shelter, water? Is it otherworldly in the sense that Dean wouldn't carve sleep, food, etc. while there? Those were some of the questions I had after the final scene aired. I wasn't excited like, "Cool! Dean's in Purgatory." I was more like, "Well, how is he supposed to survive there? This season sucked." LOL!
I couldn't agree more w/you about Kevin Tran. Since Dean's been to Purgatory, why couldn't the arc center around him in some way. I didn't care about Kevin Tran when he was first introduced, and I don't care about him now. The actor is fine, but I can take or leave the character.
Sadly, I had zero hopes for Season 8, and these spoilers have not changed that. None of what I'm reading sounds good, but I'll watch. Maybe, I'll be pleasantly surprised!
Sam and Dean are the heart of the show and I want them together as well.
Also am a bit disheartened by the spoilers, as I was hoping we were Finally, after 4 years, through with the heaven and hell, angels vs demons and where is God scenarios. Tired of it as it overshadows the boys too much. It's just too far out of their hands in so far as having an effect on things and instead of them being the instigators in the saving and hunting, they end up being pushed and pulled around by these non human beings! Enough of that already!
On the other hand, I will wait and see how it all turns out while hoping for season 9 to follow after.
If it is more like seasons 1 to 3 then great! They are my favourite seasons anyway.
Please Jeremy Carver. Give us those too close brothers back, and while you are at it, bring back Bobby!
I agree w/you too. My only problem w/the angels is the boys become too disconnected from the story.
In the episode where Cas first appeared in Season 6, at some point, Sam and Dean just disappeared from the episode. Cas was battling w/Balthazar, and it really had nothing to do w/Sam and Dean. That's a problem, IMO. The action should always involve or include the leads in some way. Maybe that's why I don't care about Kevin Tran and Crowley. Why should I care if Crowley is looking for Kevin Tran? Honestly, why should Sam?
I also think w/the angels the stakes become much larger . . . . too large for Sam/Dean. It's always about the end of the world, and there's never much Sam and Dean can do to prevent that. Like you said, they end up being pushed and manipulated rather than doing the pushing or manipulating.
I believe this season proved that the boys need to be a large part of the overarching arc, and not just as bystanders or protectors. It needs to be personal for the Winchesters.
JMO.
I was really looking forward to something different this year and as far as I can tell it's business as usual.
Just like some Dean (or Dean/Cas) fans who claim that they want the brothers apart, so they can both have character growth when what they actually want is Sam out of the main storyline (hoping that Purgatory would be the main storyline) so they can at last enjoy the Dean & Cas show. It goes both ways
oh and I'm glad the angels and demons are back! season 4 and 5 were the best! and crossing my fingers that Misha will come back as a series regular!!
Weirdly, I would be cool if the brothers were separated for a short period of time, but I get why they won't be doing that. It is true we do prefer them together and it is true that the story is more engaging when they are side by side, that's what it's all about after all. The chemistry between the brothers is compelling and it would be difficult to capture that with them being apart for any length of time. I'm predicting we won't see them apart at all. Which saddens me, because I had my heart set on a bearded Dean....no razors in Purgatory!
For me, there has to be Angels in there on some level because we know they exist now, we know they are asses and to ignore them at this stage of the game would be like ignoring demons. They are there, they will pop their nasty heads up from time to time.
I quite enjoy the old flashback. I think in the past, Supernatural has done them very well, so I look forward to seeing how this is handled. In the brothers telling their stories through flashback it allows the other brother to experience that memory too, which I think adds to the drama and adds resonance and understanding to their relationship.
I think it's great that Carver has another show and new characters under his belt now. This will only help to expand his repertoire and make him a better writer and seeing as he was already pretty damn awesome, it's going to fab to have him back on board. But I agree that we probably won't notice much of a difference, unless it's in a slightly lighter tone. This show is 8 seasons in, it's established, I'm sure it works like a well oiled machine.
I'm super excited about this new monster from Purgatory. I love new monsters!
I can't wait to see what they have planned and how it all plays out.
As usual, I'm champing at the bit for the new season to get underway!
I'm surprised the Purgatory storyline sounds like it won't be a major theme. I was really expecting this season to be tied to a monster mytharc of some sort. It'd be sad if Purgatory turns out to be some sort of throwaway storyline that just gets dumped a few episodes in.
Alice, I'm just curious- do the rest of the spoilers have more about the brothers? Or do you get the sense we're in for a repeat of last season, where the storyline revolves around other characters like Kevin, Crowley, and assorted guest stars?
This is just the tip of the iceberg. More is coming and I'll be sure to share it as soon as I hear it.
I hope you get the chance to ask about the brotherly bond. It'll always be my favorite aspect of the show.
Thank you, Alice!
sorry alice, i'm referring to the brotherly bond!
angels and demons and the quest sound cool, but I'm not so much behind everything else. Looks like they'll be wasting potential again and ugh seriously, I love my Winchester boys like nobody's business but I love them on their own to and wish they could get some time to shine away from each other and get time to develop too before being reunited. idk maybe there'll be big changes that the flashbacks fill in? idk apprehensive right now.
The angel population has significantly dropped between Apocalypse, Heaven Civil War, Leviathan!Cas, and the Leviathans killing Castiel's garrison.
7x23 Cas said he could not hear his garrison so they were probably all dead or in hiding.
From SPN, I have been lead to believe there is more than one garrison and each garrison gets one superior (in Castiel's and his garrison's case, this was Anna, and then later Zachariah after Anna fell).
I think Cas only hears members of his garrison as before the Apocalypse there were thousands of angels and that would be a lot of angels to hear mentally.
It wouldn't be necessary for the angels to all be able to communicate to each other, as they would all of superiors to do that until the war.
I can't wait to see what's in store for S8. Flashback episodes are great..SPN does an awesome job with them..and if they follow a format of S2 or S3 as it says then I'm all for it. S2 was my favorite season...and S5, but S2 was the best!!
Can't wait..and honestly I'm glad we want notice anything different. Jeremy Carver knows this show and knows what works, so I look forward to whatever he plans this season.
I'm so excited that FINALLY stuff is coming out about S8..this hiatus has been hard!!
Oh hell no! I am so sick of the angel story.
I like Crowley a lot, but I feel the angel arc is well over.
I'm glad the're not dropping the angels storyline, heaven is still in chaos, that needs to be adressed.
On the fence about the flashback, I really hoped for a few ep. about Dean in purgatory, but flashback could give a good dynamic and suspense, we'll see.
Still framing Cas role out? Seriously? He should be front and center with the bros, especially if the arc involve the word of God.
Please SPN gods, I mean writers, don't let us wait half the season in hope we get a glimpse of Cas. He's part of the show, he's family, he needs to mend his relation with Dean and develp one with Sam.
This!
The show really doesn't need more Deus ex Castiel.
Plus, Castiel's redemption story isn't done, and with Bobby gone I think it would be good for Sam and Dean to have someone around. Cas needs to earn their friendship back, but he does care about them (he regrets very much over what he did), and Dean and Sam care about him too. He did wrong, but I think they're willing to give him a second chance. Especially Sam. From 7x21, Sam seems to see the similarity of his situation in season 4 and 5 and Castiel's.
(http://fangasmthebook.wordpress.com/2012/02/06/jensen-ackles-talks-dean-directing-and-more-in-nashvegas/)
Fan: How do you make certain decisions for Dean, like the scene where Cas dies and you took the trenchcoat out of the lake and folded it, that wasn’t scripted?
Jensen: It was not. A lot of those are just character instinctual things I’ve been playing Dean so long I feel like I have a pretty good handle on how he would react to a situation – his relationship with Cas was very deep, there was a deep friendship there, and I discussed it with Guy Bee, and said if he ever comes back, he’s gonna need the trench coat. And there was just something like, almost a closure, I was just folding it up, like a flag. So I pulled the coat out, and Guy was like “Do that again.” I wanted to take care of it, it belonged to somebody who meant a lot to Dean. So it was a happy accident. A lot is written, it’s a very well written show, but it’s nice when they happen.
-
Plus the fact that Dean explicitly tells Castiel he's "like a brother" in 6.20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDnt_gquyCk which is probably the highest praise Dean could give someone, and absolutely not something he would say lightly.
He suggested keeping the trenchcoat? Well that solves the whole "that was fan service" thing.
Makes me smile knowing Jensen agrees it was a deep friendship. He's acted as Dean for 7 years, who could argue with him?
I mean, Bobby's quote "Family don't end with blood" always resonated really hard with me, and then you've got Dean saying that Cas is like a brother to him...
They really need the time to mend their relationship. (Again, quoting Bobby "They're supposed to make you miserable! That's why they're FAMILY!") I can't wait to see them reconnect! It really looked like we were heading for a redemption arc for Cas in 7.23, or at least a 'Dean-will-forgive-Cas' arc, since Sam already has. (Honestly, Sam forgave Cas before the end of Season 6, looking at their interactions since then...)
I can't wait to see all three of the boys in Season 8!
Ahahahahahaha, who knew that being someone's half brother that you've never met, was worth something greater than being brothers in a metaphorical sense with someone for years, who you've been through much with.
Sorry. I'm not an Adam fan. I have half-siblings.. There is no inherent, inbuilt love without actually knowing the person. Dean tried with Adam, anyways and didn't just forget, even if I had no care for it. STFU
Canon is also the fact he lied and betrayed both brothers. Canon is also fact that he uses Castiel for his powers. Canon is also the fact that there is no deep connection between Castiel and Dean other than the writers trying to put crap into Deans mouth.
Canon is also Jensen being embarrassed by the trenchcoat scene and knows it was totally OOC.
Of course he uses Castiel's power. Just like he uses Sam's skill in research. Just like he uses Bobby's fake telephone line and house. Dean often doesn't ask Castiel to use his powers to help them, and Castiel does it anyway, because he is their friend. Castiel will always offer as much assistance as is in his power to offer. Dean was content to keep Cas with them when his powers were fading and he was becoming mortal, fifth season. Dean still wants Cas with them now, even though Castiel considers himself cursed. Dean's still willing to take that risk, because it is Castiel.
I'm pretty happy with the direction that their relationship has taken, since it shows signs of mending. :) I look forward to seeing that next season.
I dont really need him and Sam to become buddy /buddies. I want Sam to develop something away from that Dean/Castiel dynamics it has never done Sam any favours and I dont believe it ever will so that is why I have been so big on Sam having that relationship seperate from the other two.
I know others want different .
And Cas did pull Sam out of Hell. He didn't do a perfect job, but he tried. (I figure anything is better than Sam being eternally left to rot in the Cage, since I don't think Dean could have gotten him from there and I don't think anyone with the ability to spring Sam would have tried besides Cas.)
But I agree that the brothers should have separate relationships with other characters. They don't need to bond to all of the same characters or bond in the same way to the others. Sam doesn't need to share the same bond with Cas that Dean does, and I hope Sam forms friendships with other characters while Dean is in Purgatory; Dean won't need to share those relationships either. ^_^
I would love to see Sam make some new, non-evil, non-crazy hunter friends. The hunting world needs to be broadened. Sam has no friends. His last friends were in college. Give him some friends.
That said, of course I'd love to see Sam make more friends, new friends! He's a beautiful soul, and he seems to make friends wherever he goes. (Like with the girl at the asylum.)
They do put their lives on the line for strangers, that's part of what makes them heroes. But Sam said specifically that he would die for Cas out of friendship, in season 6. "He's our friend, too, Dean, and I'd die for him, I would." Dean tells Castiel specifically that Cas and Bobby are the closest things he has to a family outside of Sam. He even compares the potential loss of Castiel with the loss of Lisa and Ben. These were very pointed and sincere statements. Dean is the one who defends Cas to Sam and Bobby, when they suspect him (rightly) of working with Crowley. Dean is the one Castiel can't look at in the eyes and lie to. Castiel offers to go die with Dean in the season 7 finale. Ben Edlund, series writer, has called Castiel a 'third brother'. They mean business. They are sincere. Otherwise, Castiel's betrayal and death this season wouldn't even have any meaning, and all the brothers' actions subsequent would make no sense.
There's a great deal of logic to be found in admitting that Dean and Cas are close, are friends. :)
Well, Jared disagrees w/you. He said Sam and Castiel were NOT friends. I've never seen anything to indicate that they are friends, so I agree w/Jared.
I don't recall the line from 6x20, but I think that's a little OTT. But that's just me.
Look, you may think I'm some Castiel hater, but I'm really not. I actually have no problem w/Castiel or Misha. I have a problem w/the writers not bothering to show the development of a relationship, etc. My problem is with the frequent TELLING rather than SHOWING the writers do.
I believe Dean and Castiel are friends. Do I believe Dean views Castiel as a brother based on what I've watched - no, I don't. I think that's overstating matters.
Do I think Sam and Castiel are friends? No, I don't. They barely, and rarely, interact or speak to each other. I was shocked when Castiel told Anna Sam was his friend back in TSRTS. I was like, "When did that happen?" It was the subject of discussion online.
I don't think the writers have bothered to create a Sam/Castiel relationship the way they have w/Dean and Castiel. Too often, the show assigns Dean's feelings to Sam instead of showing us Sam bonding w/these people like Dean.
So, in my mind, the show has not established a Sam/Castiel friendship. They could, but they haven't done so as of yet.
But personally, I think it's mutual. (I mean, when someone repeatedly dies on your family's behalf, you feel a little bit affectionate towards them, usually.) It took a long time coming, and they'll probably never be best friends. But when you take into account little moments like Sam being the first to notice Castiel's return at the end of 5x13, and rushing to help him, with at least equal relief and concern -- or when Sam and Castiel talk about their shared vision of Lucifer (as a remnant of Sam's psychosis) -- or when Sam sees Castiel alive and talking in the asylum, his relieved "Hey, Castiel" -- or the fact that he objected to leaving Cas instead of bringing him with them -- or the fact that he objected to Meg's threats to take Cas in 7x17 -- it adds up to an impression of solidarity, if not deep friendship. I interpret their relationship as friends, but not close. After all, Sam still lets Dean do pretty much all the talking when it comes to Cas.
They haven't had many moments together, partially because Castiel's primary bond is with Dean, and partially because Misha and Jared are too busy goofing around when together to get much work done.
Dean would never ever leave Sam in an asylum for anything...there that says it all. Castiel is just someone they use.
Real emotion came with the loss of Dean and Sam and John and even Bobby. They are all part of each others lives and do things for the better of each other. Castiel did things for the betterment of himself.
Dean will use him like he's used him before and Sam and Dean will be reunited. And hopefully Dean and Sam will be able to move on and win this fight like they have done before, together.
I like that it is canonized that Castiel was the best friend Dean ever had (quote from Bobby). I'm sorry you disagree.
I'm not being sarcastic, but did I miss some dialogue where this was stated? I found the season to be terrible so I didn't pay too much attn to the episodes, but did Dean say that? And if Dean was so saddened by Castiel's absence, I wonder why he didn't seem to care too much about Castiel during the year he was w/Lisa and Ben. He wasn't calling on Castiel or thinking about his BFF at all.
Again, I think the writers have gone OTT in the dialogue w/r/t Dean and Castiel. I do think Dean considered Castiel a friend, but his BFF . . . not that I saw.
In "Shut Up, Dr. Phil", we see Dean dreaming about 1) Castiel walking into the lake, 2) Sam shooting a gun at a hallucination, and 3) Dean killing Amy. We're shown these three things, because they are connected, and Dean's subconscious knows it.
In "How to Win Friends and Influence Monsters", Dean eats a Turducken, and gets high. Bobby says "There's something wrong with you!" And Dean replies, "Are you kidding? I actually feel great! Best I've felt in a couple months. Cas, black goo -- I don't even care anymore. And you know what's even better? I don't care, that I don't care."
Later on in 7x09, Sam and Bobby discuss how Dean's doing while he sleeps off the Turducken. Sam: "So you think he's okay?" Bobby (sighs heavily): "He's alright." Sam: "So you don't worry about him?" Bobby: "What do you mean? Like, before the Turducken?" Sam: "Yeah, I kinda mean like, ever since my head broke, and we lost Cas. I mean, you ever feel like he's going through the motions but he's not the same Dean?" Bobby: "How could he be?"
Dean and Bobby have a conversation a few scenes later in that episode, discussing Dean's passive suicidal state. Dean's "had it." It's a really sad scene, that gives some sight into Dean's situation this season. But he's speaking to Bobby, a man who had to kill his father, and his own wife. Bobby knows what it's like to lose your motivation to live, and still keep on living anyway.
Near the end of the season, when talking to Emmanuel, Dean says, about his friend who betrayed him and hurt Sam, "Honestly, I-I don't know if he is dead. I just know that this whole thing, couldn't be messier. You know I used to be able to just shake this stuff off, you know whatever it was, it might take some time, but I always could. What Cas did, I just can't, and I don't know why."
When Emmanuel tries to reassure Dean that "It doesn't matter why," Dean interrupts him to say, "Of course it matters!"
I'd encourage you to watch the scene, it's lovely.
Near the end of the episode, Dean pulls out Cas' trenchcoat and hands it to him. Again, from this gesture, we know that Dean carried the coat with him from town to town and stolen car to stolen car, until he could give it back to Cas. From the episode preview, we have the cut line "Part of me always believed you would come back."
All of the above examples indicate that Castiel, his betrayal, and his death, weighed heavily on Dean's mind. It contributed to his drinking, depression, and reticence this season. I tried to provide specific examples, so I apologize for the length of this reply. :)
As to the period before Season 6, it does not surprise me that Dean did not call on Cas. He also didn't call on Bobby. Dean said goodbye to his hunter's life, which included all his friends/family from that life. He didn't want to think about anything that could be connected with Sam (even though everything he ever did or would do, would connect his thoughts to Sam). He'd promised Sam he'd get out, and be normal. That didn't include angels, or old town drunks. Also, Castiel said he was returning to Heaven. I'm pretty sure they both thought that was goodbye. Castiel probably wouldn't have gotten involved in their lives again, had Raphael not been determined to restart the apocalypse and destroy the earth.
But just because two soldiers go home from war and never see or speak to each other again, does not mean their bond is any less, or that they don't remember the long nights in the trenches, fighting for their lives.
Agree. Its so simple its insane that people that watch the show don't see this.
If all Castiel had ever done was ruin Sam and betray Dean, I'd probably hate him too. But that is nowhere near the truth of the matter.
1) Castiel has died for them, several times (lol only in Supernatural could you get this kind of repeat self-sacrifice). Many people consider this the greatest sign of loyalty and love. When a soldier gives his life so that a comrade might live and continue to fight in his place, their awarded high honor. The Biblical standpoint is that "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
2) Castiel has risked his life to bring the brothers back together, or save them from some dire circumstance, on many occasions. (Changing Channels, Two Minutes to Midnight, The Rapture, Sympathy for the Devil, Abandon All Hope -- Need I go on?) Castiel pointed out, during his decline in season 6, that one of the only times he felt like himself was when he was protecting the Winchester brothers. He still "considered himself the Winchesters' guardian."
3) Castiel cares about the brothers. Deeply. Inappropriately (for an angel). It's one of the reasons his superiors demoted him early on. He's never recovered from caring too much for them.
You're bothered by Castiel's betrayal of Dean. Well, so am I. But to have that betrayal, there had to be something to betray, there had to be trust there in the first place. Dean had to trust Cas (which he did, refer please to The Man Who Would Be King). Which in turn means that not all Castiel ever did was betray and hurt them. Dean wouldn't have trusted him in that instance.
4) Dean trusts Castiel, still, to a huge degree. He trusts him to do the right thing, to heal Sam, and to walk into Dick Roman's headquarters with them and not disappear. They are rebuilding their trust, together. Dean wouldn't do that if Cas wasn't his friend (like a brother to him, quote-unquote) and if all Cas had done was cause him pain.
Kripke was still writing and running the show when they brought back Cas in season five. Kripke was showrunner when they had Cas embark on his own specific quest for God, while still involved in the brothers' storyline (treating him like another main character, with importance and respect, even if the focus was on the brothers the whole time). Castiel and Dean had some of their most poignant bonding moments under Kripke's leadership.
I honestly don't think you can assume what he would do, in this situation, without being him.
A person can dislike Castiel, but painting him as a one-dimensional villain just makes them seem like they are not paying attention to the show.
I for one am excited by these spoilers. The quest aspect has potential, and I agree with sweetondean that the angels shouldn't be ignored. (I think I read somewhere that one way to improve the show would be to decide whether the angels stay or go; sounds to me that the writers are deciding they stay.) Plus I'm curious about this monster from Purgatory that Dean meets. Bring on Season 8!!
uhm sorry, but to me that is not exactly "the writers have a different vision and their own take on the show"
Castiel is my number one angel forever and always. :)
One of my favorite quotes about his acting is when Jensen said Misha's interpretation of the Leviathan made him "pee a little."
Anyway, he's a very versatile actor, and I'm glad to have him on the show.
After Butch & Sundance failure, it's hard to get excited about Raiders of the Lost Ark. But, I guess we can't expect much from a show this old. Damn, why did S4-S5 have to be so damn good? It makes it hard to watch this show die with a wimper.
I loved Castiel too. But I'm tired of seeing him mangled for nothing.
Please don't put words into my mouth or make assumptions about me, thank you.
1. to reiterate, Dean and Sam developing on their own. Learning to be stronger and more independent, that way when they return to being together they'll be there not because they literally cannot survive without one another but more because they're really ready to fix their relationship and want to be by one another's sides.
2. Conversely, less positive development is still development, and time spent apart from one another could spur that on in one or both of the brothers.
(One break Sam and Dean took from one another comes to mind, in early season 5, when Sam met that girl at the bar he was working at for a while and had his realization when she told him that people could be forgiven for anything. That was important for his character.)
3. Purgatory. Going by lore, Purgatory is a place of cleansing. Perhaps this is where Dean can purge all his old guilt and hurt and so on. I'd love to get time to see Dean recover from all the trauma he's endured, and it'd be really cool if while fighting monsters we could see Dean do this. That's one possible plot that may be thrown to the wayside. (I'm very much in support of a Dean-centirc storyline this season, that can deal with Dean's admittedly more "human" emotional issues and perhaps address his drinking problem!)
4. First off Castiel's presence and Dean and Sam's reuniting don't conflict, in my eyes. However, I see Purgatory (if indeed Castiel wasn't yanked out of there by Crowley or some other force) an opportunity for Dean and Castiel's friendship to mend while they're forced to work together to get out of Purgatory and back to Sam. That's another opportunity that may or may not be thrown aside.
5. Back to the boys being separated, another thing I thought it gave great opportunity to was Sam gathering a force/support structure that would work together to get Dean (and Cas) back. Jody, Garth, Charlie, Missouri, perhaps, and maybe even Inias (presuming he was one of the angels who when into hiding). I know it's been said that they want to bring back some old faces, so I'm excited to see that happen.
So yeah, those are a few examples. Granted Castiel is in there, but he's certainly not the crux of it.
Also Sam and Dean don't have to be alone to learn "to be stronger and more independent."
The only one of your points I agree with is #3.
Sam battling to save them is not a passive role.
According to Ben Edlund, Castiel is a third brother. I think he's more than a side character. Misha earned his place as a co-star just like Castiel earned his place with the brothers. It's not the Dean and Cas show, it's Supernatural, which thankfully includes Dean and Castiel and Sam and everyone else that makes up their quirky family.
Sam and Dean don't necessarily need to be separated, but it might do them good. They've never been completely alone, until recently. They had John, and Bobby, and Missouri, and then Ellen and Jo and Ash, and all the beautiful characters they leaned on throughout the series. They have always needed (and wanted!) a support system, and family to come alongside them. They yearn for love, and have had their own respective romantic relationships, with Cassie, with Jess, with Lisa. That's part of the reason they were so miserable this season. They lost everyone. They are not happy alone, they can't grow well without friends and helpers. They just get tired. It's okay for siblings to look outside of each other for love, because it doesn't make them love each other any less. That's just not how love works.
And goodness, Dean and Sam are fictional characters who we've been with for years and years - I don't think anyone is claiming to be inside their heads, but I'd think that enough of us have studied literature and television and such long enough and have watched this show long enough that we could understand these characters and muse on what may be good plot/development for them!
As a Casfan, it's fine by me.
As a fan for the brothers, I wouldn't want Cas there permeantly either. I like that he is there for a few episodes, but I can only take him in doses.
Was that a dig at me? OUCH! I never claim anything, I only ever speak for myself and what I think. No need to put down fans, just simply disagree like Beth did. I don't agree with Beth, but it is what it is. No need to mock or insult fans.
p.s. I'm a Team Free Will fan all the way, man. All the way.
http://blog.zap2it.com/frominsidethebox/2012/07/10-spoilers-nikita-heads-to-hong-kong-for-season-3-premiere-parenthood-adds-a-love-interest-and-more.html
That spoiler leads me to believe that some parts of Purgatory will be explored.
I am actually glad it won't happen. Love the brothers together, but just because they are reuinted doesn't mean they are stuck to the hip. I am sure something will happen where one is off on their own for an entire episode. That will keep things fresh, the point of the matter for me, is that I am glad they are reunited and not separated for long episodes like many fans wished for.
Here's the problem with that. Two, potentially three brother scenes were cut from the finale. An SPN finale has always been defined by the brothers and their relationship and yet there were no significant brother moments in that finale this year. Someone made that choice to cut those. Someone made the choice to not allow the brothers' arc or either of their character arcs to come to a resolution. Every finale has some kind of resolution for the year for their leads. SPN cut that out of the final product.
So that *is* a problem.
Me too.
Did you know they filmed a burial scene of Dean w/Sam and Bobby back in Season 4 during IKWYDLS? And it was cut for a Ruby scene! What a joke!
This finale sucked. Heck, the entire season sucked! I only enjoyed THREE episodes, and can't really watch the one I really enjoyed (HCW) knowing the arc went nowhere and horribly failed to live up to expectations! There needs to be a redo of Season 7. LOL! Just start anew!
From a narrative standpoint, it's not the job of a television finale to resolve the plot as much as it is to create a jumping board for the new season. You're supposed to end on a cliff-hanger, with the audience jumping in their seats to know what happens, how the characters will face down an even worse problem. That's just good writing.
I think, from a fan perspective, that they were trying to fit a two-hour finale into a one-hour time slot. :) I would have loved to see more moments between the brothers, but I still like what I got. It made me very excited to watch the next season, so it served its purpose.
Didn't know that. Well, that's not encouraging! No wonder the finale's only two bright moments - for me - were w/the Alpha Vamp and w/Dean yelling at Castiel for not cleaning up the mess he (Cas) made! I was just happy someone told off doofus Cas who was neither amusing or fun.
The brother moments make the show. I hope those scenes are at least included on the DVD.
I thought there were several bright moments in the finale, including seeing Baby careen down the road, and seeing Sam admit to coming to terms with himself, at least a little bit. :) I also enjoyed seeing Castiel engage in the fighting, rather than hiding out of fear that he would mess up again. Some of the bravest actions we can ever take, as people, is to keep going after we fail.
I look forward to a really poignant reunion for the brothers, next season. Hopefully they'll also include some of the cut scenes on the dvd. :)
Having them has always been a part of SPN. Dean and Sam don't need to be alone to get the old SPN feel.
Rest soud okay to me so far.
It will not be the last season, the cw prez said so.
Dean had to vent about Hell, he went to HELL. If he had never talked about it (at Sam's insistence) it would have eaten away at and killed him. But I doubt he'll have the same motivation to hide his experiences from Sam, this time around. In season 4, Dean was still desperately trying to protect Sam, who would have been hurt to know the extent of the effect Hell had on Dean. They do need to have Sam address his time in Hell, and I'm hoping they do more of that in the next season, because he needs some healing. The woman he meets might actually help him find a way to free Dean. They might not become romantically involved at all until Dean is out (especially considering the time jump). I'm glad this won't be the last season (according to CW) because I'm excited to see where it leads. :)
I really want the producers and writers respect the characters and actors. I am sick of that the producers treat the characters expendable.
And Cas, well, they don't know what to do with him, it seems. You can't expect the writers to find a role for every secondary character in every season, I guess.
It has nothing to do with respect to the actors.
Oh, you hurt me. ;( Joke. But you really hurt me.
If the writers concentrate on the consistency, every secondary character in every season has their own role. It's beyond what I expect or not. Now season 8, and before long ago, the writers should 'follow' the plots and characters. Ask Stephen King. (I mean his book 'On Writing')
But their(writers) obsessions for 'surprising story' twisted the characters and consistency. Why Anna was suddenly changed as a badass who forgot Sam and Dean saved her life? Why Castiel saved Lisa for Dean but broke Sam's wall? What is for Daphne?? Is their any consistency? Did these make sense? Roles for secondary characters. It's about writers can keep the consistency. Not about writers generous attitude. :(
A good character is made of writers' skills but also is developed by actors ones. Writers can kill the characters, and it's on their hand, I know. But. "Just because you can do what you want doesn't mean that you get to do whatever you want." Ben Edlund said that.
Bobby can still come back. If the others came back multiple times why not him? The boys need Bobby to stay sane.
It can be written well.
And bring back Gabe if you're at it!
Getting too warm here from the weather plus the flamers!
And remember the show has never shown its other 'verses in detail. For example, both brothers' visits to hell have never been explored, only implied. I would expect the same for Purgatory. To do something different would go against the show's structure.
Perhaps it's the Indiana Jones fan in me, but bring it on, show. And put Dean back in a fedora....and now a whip. ;)
Melting.
I also want it to be Sam that rescues Dean, but I don't think there is anything here to indicate whether he does or doesn't.
I absolutely do not want to see Dean 'bonding' with Cas while Sam is elsewhere, so I'm hoping the implied absence of Cas in first few eps means we aren't getting that.
Like the idea of the Raiders theme, Crowley's involvement, the lighter tone etc.
Overall mixed views, but I'm still hugely looking forward to s8.
I don't think Cas is in Purgatory at all. It seems there's no big plans for him yet, but I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more of Cas + Meg team.
I'd love to see more Cas and Meg! They make an ADORABLE couple!
Oh like when he broke the wall in Sam's head? I'm sure that was for Sam's own good though, right?
Quote:
Only to benefit himself in the end because he knew Sam would play nice with Grandpappy in getting all the alphas and to find purgatory. Give it up, he 'broke' Sam out of hell, minus a soul, for his own selfish reasons.
Ding: Wrong! It's canon he didn't leave Sam's soul there on purpose. And that he went down there at some risk to himself to save Sam.
When he broke Sam's wall, he was acting in his own interests, both power-hungry and desperate. It was something he has still not forgiven himself for. It IS something that Sam has forgiven him for, and something that Dean is working on forgiving him for.
Cas was never perfect: he also let Sam loose from lockdown to start the Apocalypse, before he decided to turn against Heaven. But that doesn't negate the sacrifices he's made specifically for the brothers or for Dean. Such as setting fire to Michael so that Dean could try to reach Sam. Or walking into what he thought was certain death so that Dean and Sam could try to rescue Adam. Or facing down an archangel so Dean could try to stop Sam from killing Lilith. Or even absorbing Sam's psychic injury into himself, to contain it safely (and indefinitely) within his own grace, because he was so repentant and eager to put right his wrongs.
He even made them food especially so that they wouldn't be affected by the Leviathans' poison. You can't tell me that's not love!
And in future verse "The End" Cas became human and always stuck by Dean's side, even when Dean became cold after Sam said yes to Lucifer.
That verse doesn't exist now, but the fact that Cas did that in another verse just shows his loyalty.
He's done some really bad things, but what matters now is he started to mend it and he heavily regrets what he did. He knows what he did was wrong.
Well, Dean said he tried. You make it sound as if he wasn't trying at all.
I would love a season of nothing but that, but oh well
LOL, I remember Misha saying they stopped writing scenes between Sam and Cas because jared kept making him laugh during takes!
But yeah, Dea and Cas are the reason I watch too, along with a whole lot of other people. So I'm definitely good with Dean and CAs bonding in Purgatory and Cas riding in the Impala!
All evidence makes me think he's not there.
If he was down there wouldn't it be mentioned by now? I know many fans like yourself are wanting that, wouldn't they take advantage of the exitment and tease you guys a bit? Besides that, an article came out a month ago with Robert saying that Crowley had a hand in taking Cas out. That same article mentioned a time jump.
I was a little weirded out by all the fanfiction and fans arts done by fans already fantasizing of Dean and Cas in Purtgury. I was only weirded out because what I saw on my screen is Cas being taken out by other forces, meaning he isn't down there to begin with.
That is just my opinion, however. We'll see what happens.
Oh we'll agree to differ! I think he's there, they just don't want to spoil it.
It's all subjective, but what keeps me watching is the chemistry between Sam and Dean and Jensen and Jared. Misha and Jensen don't hold my interest. Again , subjective we all see things differently
Other characters are fine, and I sure love some of them (Bobby) but the bros are just the very core of the show.
They certainly hold mine!
Personally never been much of a fan of the brother bond. But I do have a close relationship with my siblings, so maybe that's why? I've heard a lot of people online saying they wished they were close to their siblings anyway, so I'm wondering if maybe that's why it's so important to some fans that Sam and Dean are always super close physically and emotionally with no strife.
But yeah, brother bond is definitely not one of my reasons for watching. I can take or leave that. But Castiel certainly is. ^_^ He's become required watching haha.
I love the brother bond, but it's always great to have Team Free Will to reunite and kick demon butt.
I don't really agree. I think that the writers want this show to be the best it can be, and I'm pretty sure that they are thrilled to be working on Supernatural. They have a very demanding set of fans to work with, though. From what I've seen, Supernatural fans will nit-pick everything. It comes with being intelligent viewers.
People need to just go with the flow.
Misha may be a popular actor, but what if they can't find a good role for him in the story? should Cas be pushed there no matter what, just because he's popular?
Please.
Man, do we agree or not?
Twitter followers, or populairy has nothing to do with the role of the character on the show. Cas is a favorite among many fans, and that is why the network promotes him, but to make the show about him? It's not going to be like that, he is still on the show because he is a favorite, that a good thing. But I am sure the network understands that even though he is a favorite online by some fans, it doesn't mean that he will hold the interest of more fans who watch the show but don't involve themselves online. That is the difference. It's about what catches a viewers eye, and Misha isn't it. Popularity has nothing to do with it.
It's fine if Misha has fans, he's popular and people love how he interacts with fans.
But he's not a main character, and if they can't find a good reason to have Cas in the show (that they can't and sadly it's been like that for a while) no matter how many fans he has, the writers should not feel pressed becaus of things like number of Twitter followers.
So I think we agree?
I think we do agree! It's like that on many other shows I watched. There is always an underdog character that fans hold on to and love, who isn't a main character. That character becomes popular, and because they are popular the network will use the actor to promote the show, but they know that said actor won't be somebody who will keep the show on the air in the long run, because while they do have a cult following they don't have a core, a large amount of actual following, so they will use the actor to promote the show, but they won't give the character a chance to actually have a main plot. In the end this show was drivin with the brothers story, many fans, the fans that count in ratings, watch for that.
Yes, that happens quite often, and I understand loving a secondary character. I've been there.
But you can't seriously expect te writers to transform the whole show just because a character/actor is popular, and I'm afraid that's what some fans want.
Maybe they should give Castiel a spin-off series, everybody would be happier.
Seriously? So because someone is a Cas fan they don't count in ratings? think again. There are more than enough fans that watch the show for other things. With only the brotherly bond fans there wouldn't even be enough ratings to keep the show going. There are plenty of other fans. There are fans of monsters and demons (like my brother and, every single one of his friends) and they don't give a shit about the brotherly bond. There are Cas fans, there are just Dean fans and just Sam fans. There are fans that watch it for all the characters and love everyone. If only the fans that watched it for the brotherly bond counted in the ratiings the show would of been dropped a long time ago.
LOL, he catches my eye. Maybe you should stop posting opinion as fact? Of course the show should cash in on his popularity. They'd be crazy not to.
It's my opinion though, can't help if it comes of as fact, maybe because it is fact? No, but honestly, they do use Misha to promote the show, but they don't use him excessively on the show where he has an actual storyline. He has a cult following, but not that much of a strong following where he is able to keep the show afloat. Ratings says otherwise.
LOL, since what catches one's eye is purely subjective then no, actually it can't be fact that Misha doesn't catch the eye. Because he does catch the eye of many, many fans. So that means it is your purely subjective opinion and not fact at all.
Quoting Love:
LOL, ratings can be twisted to say anything!
But ratings is what counts for a show, especially a show on the CW. We will have to agree to disagree, I have seen this kind of stuff with other shows where fans want their favorite to always be front and center even though the show doesn't revolve around said character. The network never budges though because they know if they turn the tables to a whole other direction, that will destroy a show. Cult following, or the core following? which one is more important to the SPN show?
LOL, if ratings mattered the show wouldn't have been renewed! Anyway it's been doing well, relatively speaking to other CW shows.
Quoting Love:
LOL, like you do, you mean...
Quoting Love:
Then why are you so worried about Misha being back?
you seem confused with my posts. I never said I was worried about Misha being back. Did I say that? I don't think I did. I am saying he is a favorite, he has a cult following, but those cult following don't matter because they are not the ones that count. I mean they took Cas out of season 7 for the majority and the ratings did fine. That's why it is being renewed because the ratings have been at a point where CW likes the numbers.
you seem confused with my posts.
LOL, nope it isn't me who is confused!
LOL, nope it isn't me who is confused!
Lol, I can't help but find your posts cute. But I am so not confused, probably a little perturbed by your smiley faces haha, but not confused. I know exactly what I am saying. You can disagree all you want though.
I loved Castiel's introduction and his use in Season 4. I thought he was great.
I feel he was overused in Season 5. It felt like they included him in episodes simply because they had a certain number of episodes to fulfill. He didn't seem to have much purpose in many Season 5 episodes. I'm not a huge fan of Season 5. I also felt they pushed things with his character a bit (ie, Dean calling him a brother, Cas saying Sam was his friend). None of that stuff tracked with me because it wasn't supported by the writing. When did Cas begin to think of Sam as a friend? Why did Dean consider him a brother? Huh? And I write that as a Cas can.
I thought he was appropriately used in Season 6. He wasn't there often but when he dud show up, he seemed to have a purpose. For me, Cas was without direction in Season 5. In Season 6, he had direction and purpose.
In Season 7, he was okay. I thought he was going to be the big bad, but then he "died." I liked the scene of him getting his memories back. I hated transferring the crazy only because the writers had thus far neglected Sam's story so badly that I was sad it never had much impact on Sam. I absolutely hated doofus Castiel. I don't like that guy at all. He was not funny or amusing. He was plain annoying so if Cas returns, hopefully, it's not in that mindset.
I can take or leave Cas. He's not essential to my enjoyment of the show. For me, the brotherly bond is essential. They don't need to be in every single scene together but I watch for their relationship. This show has been low on brotherly moments since Season 4 when Kripke decided to annihilate the relationship. To me, J2 still have great chemistry as demonstrated in that clown episode and HCW. That is the draw for most of the viewers. I do think the online audience is different from the regular viewing audience. That's why I believe the majority of viewers love the brothers and the show, in general.
Why yes I can!
Whether or not the Misha/Cas fans have helped is hard to tell at this point.
Either way, I'm happy he's around and believe there is still story there.
Or they could just, you know, work out his freaking storyline a bit better like through s4 and s5 was absolutely fantastic and towards the end of s6 too.
They problem right now is that they're not using the potential they have with Castiel and that's too bad. I hope they do that for s8!
So if their idea of the show includes Misha, then you'll have no problem with it, yes? And you'll support that? Only from your comments on here you have quite a few issues with what seems to be their idea of the show, including the angels coming back and Cas being in it... but LOL, at the same time you think they should write according to their idea of the show!
No, I won't watch it, because my intrest is Sam and Dean. If the writers chose to go the route of making season 8 about Cas, then I won't support that, I won't be on here or elsewhere bitching about it, because whats done is done, they want the story to be about Cas, let it be about Cas, why should I waste my breath and time arguing against it? I just will change the channel. But since the network's vision is about the connection between the brothers, I will watch still. It's you that is pressed with the spoilers or feeling threatened. I mean, the writers have already written for the few episodes of season 8, whats done is done, as fans we aren't going to be the ones to let them do re writes, they already have the story mapped out.
TV shows need character growth and development and progress and JESUS CHRIST don't you have side characters in your life? Like your friends? Lol.
(Edited by Alice - Please, this is clearly attacking other posters. We don't do that here. People are allowed to give their opinions, positive or negative. We prefer a constructive tone, but hey, sometimes opinions get heated. They always do when spoilers start breaking like this. This is a warning. Next post like this gets edited.)
I am a fan just like you posting on a website where comments and opeinons are accepted. Trying to shut down my opinion so yours is the only one heard? You can say the same for Katie, who is also possibly an extremitie, who feels the need to comment on every body not agreeing with her side.
You can post and express what you want, and I will do the same, not trying to shut down any fans, and you shouldn't be trying to do the same either. Not cool. Besides my post was respectful and giving my view on the matter, while you are resorting to insults.
Eh, what are you even on about? I'm over the moon with the spoilers! Angels and more Cas in S8, yay! It's you that's complaining, LOL!
But I don't think they're crazy enough to do something like that.
I think the angels storyline is overdone. And I think Castiel has been in the show a bit longer than expected for the sole reason of Misha's fans.
That I don't like that they're recycling the angels vs Demons trope doesn't mean I think they should start listening to every "suggestion" fans make, or that they should base the plot of the show on the popularity of an actor.
I don't see the contradiction. I was perfectly fine with Cas back in season 4 and 5. Those seasons are gone and the show should move on.
I'm not fighting over this anymore, it's pointless. YOu want to see Misha/Cas no matter what. I don't see the need. Period.
So? Jensen is there for Jensen's fans and Jared is there for Jared's fans. If you get your fanservice, why shouldn't Misha's fans?
Quoting Sage:
Bur lemme guess… you'd be A-OK with it doing a rinse-repeat of S1-3?
Seems like it's moving on with Cas.
Cas was in what? 5 episodes last season? And the spoilers for season 8 sounds like that's what's happening again.
So I don't know what you're talking about.
LOL, we'll see! Amazing how you all keep ranting on about how he took over when he was only in five episodes!
This entire thread will be unpublished.
Please.
I bet Ben Edlund could think up a lot of different stories for Cas. I'm thinking the real problem area is Sam and Dean. They haven't had much of any story the past few seasons and have been overshadowed by the other characters. They're the ones that feel like they've been pushed in there no matter what with no good roles in the story. (my opinion, obviously)
Sam and Dean are not being pushed in there, they are the show! No Sam+Dean = no SPN!
And when one or both brothers spend half their time standing around, or without much of any story arc, it does feel like they're there for no good reason, or like it's only the behind the scenes actor contracts keeping them both. Also I always thought the show was about more than just two guys, ie finding dad in season one. So, hey, you have your interpretation, and I have mine.
As to your point about them having a harder time thinking up something for Sam and Dean to do than Castiel, I agree that it probably is harder. I think it's because they've been more intricately defined. You can't write a plot for Sam and Dean where they decide heaven is more important to save than earth. You can't write a plot for them where they decide all this world saving stuff was irrelevant and they should really be focusing on child hunger and teen suicide. We know them too well, we know what makes them tick. Castiel is more of a wildcard. You can have him do anything. But you'd also have even more options if you decided to scrap all the characters and make the show about a talking dog. Quantity is not quality. Just because there are more storytelling options, does not mean there are better ones.
Characterization doesn't actually limit storytelling ability, all that much. That's where outside stimulation comes into play. The old "a man walks in with a gun" writing prompt illustrates that. When there is no force pushing characters out of their habits, there is no plot. But the Supernatural writers are (obviously) not done telling the story, by a long shot! It sounds to me like there is a lot of story-telling potential in the next season. :) Here's hoping it's awesome!
I completely disagree that Sam and Dean are the ones who feel pushed into the story. As Sage said, they ARE the story.
For me, the 2nd half of Season 6 and all of Season 7 had NO direction. That's the problem. The MOA was a bad, mostly uninteresting tale. Soulless Sam worked (for me) b/c it was about the brothers. The MOA was never interesting. However, Season 6 did setup a potentially wonderful story/arc for Sam that Sera squandered away due to a lack of imagination or creativity or something. There was no setup for Dean, but they could have actually done something w/his 15-episode emotional arc. Again, a lack of imagination and/or creativity stifled that story.
If I can find good, compelling fanfic re: Sam and Dean, then Sam and Dean aren't the problems. And they most certainly aren't being shoehorned into their own show!
why does he have to be in the way? Why can't Sam, Dean and Cas all just hunt together? i really don't get it. i see Sam and Dean fans and Cas fans why can't we like them all they are ALL important to the show. Just because Dean spends time with someone other than Sam once in awhile, or vice versa, doesn't mean that their brotherly bond is fucked up! It seems to me like a lot of Sam and Dean fans think that they arent' allowed to have anyone else and that is ridiculous. I love Sam, Dean, AND Cas all to death. It wouldn't be the same show without their brotherly bond but it also wouldn't be the same without Castiel.
You can love and want Sam and Dean and Cas to be together always, but for me, i don't think that will ever be shown because that isn't what SPN is really about. It's Sam and Dean, hunting and riding int he imapala, Cas will be there for them sure, but for a bare minimal.
Cas for me isn't an issue, and he never was an issue because he never got in the way of telling the story of Sam and Dean. He wasn't a trouble in season 4 or 5 or part of 6, he was barley there for 7 and when he was there the story wasn't really about him, we saw Dean react to him and Cas's trouble, but it was still pretty much about Sam and Dean. I don't think some fans who enjoy the brotherly bond are fighting with the issue of Sam and Dean having somebody there, it's about wanting the brothers to be together because many of us watch strictly for them, but also enjoy the side characters, even though I don't care for Cas, I am not troubled with him being there, but I never view him or viewed him as a main character because the show never hinted that he was.
Cas does not live and breath for the brothers, but they play a huge part in his character motivation and development. They have since the day he turned his back on Heaven. But yes, he is his own person. I am interested to see how they develop his story, and whether or not they continue to intertwine it with the brothers'. :)
I mean, that's just my opinion, though. They could prove me wrong.
b) That doesn't mean the opportunity doesn't justifiably exist. There have been some wonderful metas written about how Dean could be construed as bisexual (or even just rating somewhere on the Kinsey scale, if you prefer to avoid the labels, like I do) from canon sources, examples, and interviews. They are actually really interesting, and some of them are featured on the Supernatural Wiki:
chasingtides.livejournal.com/308708.html
waterofthemoon.livejournal.com/430230.html
They're not definitive, and of course nothing is canon until it is written, acted, filmed, and on the screen for all to see. But it might help illustrate how it's not necessarily out of the range of possibility for Dean, in particular. :)
But I don't want them to bow to fan pressures and insert a romance that would be out of character or grating.
I want them to write the best story they can. If that eventually somehow includes Dean or Castiel or Sam in a romantic relationship with someone of the same physical gender, then I'll be thrilled. But I don't anticipate it.
(You never do know though. House and Wilson rode off into the sunset, against all odds. Lol. That was a surprise!)
:)
Charlie should come back. Absolutely. So much love for Charlie.
For me the other issue with a Castiel relationship of any sort is the lack of resolution as to Jimmy's state. Many fans assume Jimmy is truly dead and the form Castiel inhabits is just a shell, but that has never been confirmed. Until it is dealt with the same consent issues that were solved by having Ruby inhabit a dead body are there for Castiel.
Although I don't really believe it, I could actually argue that Sam would be more likely than Dean to be gay, simply because Sam has not, in general, been shown as being as overtly sexual as Dean is. Sam has had female lovers, but he has had fewer on screen and has not talked about off screen encounters the way Dean has. Sam could be molded into a bi-sexual or closeted man, but he hasn't had that kind of chemistry with a man and I don't see any point in changing the portrayed sexuality of Sam.
Perhaps Charlie could come back accompanied by a girlfriend. Or Kevin Tran could be gay, we know nothing about his sexuality.
I have no burning desire to see either brother in a relationship w/anyone.
1) Just because someone sleeps with a lot of women and enjoys it, does not discount that they might also sleep with men and enjoy it. Some studies have concluded that bisexuals may actually have a higher over-all sex drive than people who identify as heterosexual or homosexual, exclusively. (Article by Richard A. Lippa, "The relation between sex drive and sexual attraction to men and women: a cross-national study of heterosexual, bisexual, and homosexual men and women") In men, he even describes how bisexual men tend to prefer one gender over the other, even though they still may display interest both ways. Kinda cool reading.
People need to accept that there are more choices around than 'straight' and 'gay'. :)
2) Just because someone does not sleep around, it does not indicate their sexual preferences. Celibacy is a choice, not a sexual orientation. :)
3) We didn't actually see Dean having sex with twin girls. We saw him having sex with one girl, and he later said there were twins. That situation is up to interpretation. :) I wouldn't mind if he did, that really wouldn't change my stance. Just pointing that out.
4) Sexual escapades and romance are different. They inform each other a lot, but aren't necessarily dependent on each other. Like, a person can have romantic but platonic friendships. And how many people have complained that their sexual partner has no sense of romance?
On a different note, I'd love to have Charlie back. With girlfriend would be fine. Her appearance and portrayal on Supernatural was one of the highlights of the season, for me. But, sadly, she's not a main character, so my original woe still stands.
Thank you guys for taking the time to politely discuss this with me. :)
Frank made Sam and Dean new badges. What should we take about their relationship from that? Is Frank family too now?
Even Robo!Sam made badges for Grandpa Sam. Does that mean he actually had feelings and was emotionally attached to Grandpa?
Please consider your statement about Soulless!Sam. He didn't have emotions, so my answer to that would be, obviously no. But Dean had emotions. Dean sometimes hated his family, and resented them. Sometimes (as in Adam's case) he barely knew them. But if you were Dean's family, he'd do his best for you. Doesn't mean he'd love you to the point of tears, but he'd do his best as your relative. John drilled the point home in Dean from a young age that family was paramount. Bobby reinforced to Dean that family didn't end with blood. With the exception of Sam and John, Dean's closest "family" are people he wasn't related to, at all. (Ben, Lisa, Bobby, Jo, Ellen, and Cas, primarily.) The people Dean had the closest familial ties with (again, outside Sam and John) were the people he specifically adopted into his family circle. The intentionality of it made them family.
Trying to argue that you have to be blood-related to matter to someone as family is discounting whole family groups that exist today, with adopted children, step-parents, spouses, the odd "uncle" or godparent, grandpa's third and best wife, etc. It's just not a logical argument, especially not for Dean.
I have never viewed Bobby or Castiel as "main" characters. They are side characters, IMO.
It's true the writers can't win, can't please everybody. But I also think they're pretty aware of that, and put the story first. I hope that's the case, anyway. Because if they are putting the story first, it's going to be good, whether or not we 'like' the end result. Heck, I didn't 'like' Ana Karenina, but it's still good literature!
The flaw in the argument is always making broad statements about what 'fans' want. It must be very difficult for Show to figure it out. Every group claims they speak for the 'majority' yet there is no real data to prove where 'the majority' actually lies.
Can't wait for more of my angel Cas, though!
You should've let Sam rescue Dean.
People are sick to death of the angel storyline.
Your show will tank if you don't wise up.
LOL, nope. Even on here a whole bunch of posts are cheering it and cheering for more Cas.
We had 2 (and a half) seasons full of angels, and yeah, it's kind of overused now.
LOL, in your opinion…
I always speak MY opinion.
But once again, plenty of people share that opinion.
I'm a Dean fan. I'd love more Cas.
It's not all Cas fans.
Again, I like Castiel, but I think it's a little much to imply that the show needs angels for the sake of continuity. We could just learn that Cas and his angel buddies are in Heaven doing what they do. It's not difficult.
I have no problem w/Castiel, but I can take him or leave him. His presence is not necessary for me to enjoy the show. Good writing is, of which Season 7 had few instances.
what people? speak for yourself and not for the entire fandom, thanks.
This! \o/
end of day, we're all entitled to our opinions and are allowed to express them respectfully...
That is what bugs me too. I respond and give insight in to WHAT I THINK. I never try to shut down other people's opinion, and some fans here are trying to do just that. It doesn't matter though does it? you can't stop fans from saying they just want Sam and Dean by thinking we are going to be listened too. Whatever is going to happen at the start of season 8 has already been written, we are either going to love it or hate it, but don't try and shut people from speaking out because you don't want sam and Dean fans heard. There is plenty of posts here I would love to disagree with and agrue with, but I can't do that because everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Thank you for sharing your opinions and from what I've read, they've been valid. I'm giving latitude for others as well though given the circumstances. If anyone is out of line, I'll give a warning or edit the post.
Thanks Alice. I just see this kind of behavior everywhere I go. Some extreme fans always trying to shut down discussion in some way. This is the first in months were I allowed my self to read comments and once I read I had to share my thoughts. It's one thing to disagree with another person, I have done it myself, but it's another thing to try and shut down another person from speaking their minds.
Dont be so patronizing.
Quoting love:
Yes, it is – and for some reason you seem to take great umbrage at the fact a large portion of this fandom loves Castiel just as much as it does the brothers.
And not all of spn fandom wants them gone. Budda-bing. That's why the show seems to be aiming to get some balance and give all the different fan groups what they want. Seems like a sensible policy to me.
A lot of us don't want the angels back. Let's see, Castiel's return had really low ratings. What does that tell you? Cas has no impact on Supernatural's ratings. I, along with many other fans of this show, do not want the angels storyline again.
I think the ratings had more to do with an over-all lack-luster season and some bad timing than anything. Several people, myself included, who had missed the couple of episodes prior due to exams gearing up at university, tuned in specifically for Cas' return (and loved it). Unfortunately, ratings are not the best measure of quality, or interest. Shows like Firefly and Star Trek have infiltrated and changed our culture, but both were cancelled because they didn't make enough financial return to excuse their low ratings. :/ But look at all the popular interest they kicked up! Game-changers. A lot like Supernatural, the Little Show That Could. Castiel remains a very popular character, with a lot of potential. I trust that Carver and Co. will put him to good use. :)
I for one am not part of anything, I just speak my opinion on things, but every fan has an orginazation. Like Extreme Cas fans have the Vocal majority and the Operation Trench-coat, both things that deal with demanding the writers to listen to them. From what I have seen Silent Majority is just the same as the organization set up by Extreme Cas fans.
There is no such thing – the poster is making it up, just like the Silent Majority are apparently making up the fact they are a majority of fandom.
I think there's a difference, especially when it parses down to positivity vs. negativity. I can't speak for every organization (much less every fan), but for me, if a group of fans band together to either 1) congratulate and celebrate the show on doing something great or 2) request a positive change, such as friendlier LGBT representation or the return of a beloved character, it's alright. When it becomes a group of fans banding together to try to get an actor fired, or to ridicule and revile the choices of the show's creators, I think it's not okay, at all, and I choose not to participate. I see it as a difference between asking the show, as a group, to consider our desires, and demanding that the show do what we want. I try to use discernment, but I also realize not all group movements are a bad thing. After all, fan support has gotten many shows a reprieve from cancellation. The Firefly cast is having a special reunion (I think at ComicCon?) this year, because fans have begged for so long and so hard that something special be done to commemorate the 10th anniversary of the show. :) Positive things can come out of fan movements.
An organization called Vocal Majority does not exist in the SPN fandom, as far as I can discern from casual searching. I think they were just tweeting that as a counter-statement to the negative and discouraging messages from the Silent Majority. I could be wrong. I try to mostly maintain an atmosphere of positivity, and let these things roll by without me. (Although, I did participate in the WeLoveMisha day, that came as a reaction to a very small and vicious group of people tweeting the cast to fire Misha. I thought that was crossing a big line, so I took a stand, there.)
The producers and writers of Supernatural have assured us that they pay attention to our feedback. I try to make mine positive, because I love the show and believe they're doing their best to make it awesome for us. :)
I won't get into the other stuff, I certainly only continue to comment here to be heard with the fans, not that I am writing in a way where I know somebody from the show will come and here what I have to say. I mean if the brothers stayed seprated in the show for a long while, I would just stop watching because I watch for them, but I wouldn't be hear demanding for the writers to keep them together, I don't want the writers to do what I want, I want to writers to do what they want, I want a shock value, I want to be entertained and see what the writers come up with, listening to the fans is not a shock or a suprise in taking what the fans want int to consideration, because I hear bitchiness left and right in fans wanting this and wanting that. We all want something, but maybe that something isn't something that will work on a show like SPN, so for me, I want to hear the stories, original stories of what the writers come up with all on their own.
And the writers reuniting the brothers is less fan service and more self aware that since the show hinges on the brothers relationship together, they knew that it's best to reunite them and not keep them separated.
Again, I state,
I believe fans were probably using the term "vocal majority" to spite the organization Silent Majority.
There was not (to my limited and retroactive knowledge from looking into it only in the past two days) an organization named the Vocal Majority in the Supernatural fandom. It hasn't left any online tracers that I've picked up, from casual searching. I was not involved in Twitter at the time, and so do not know for 100% surety whether or not the above is true. It is my conjecture. I hope I have spoken plainly enough for you to understand.
Bitchiness is never pleasant, nor are misunderstandings, miscommunication, or bashing. That should not happen. I love to network with the fans. I also love the idea that the creators of the show I love pay attention to us, and consider us important. It's part of what makes being a fan of a small show so fun.
The term fan-service is over-used and inherently contradictory. I personally move it be stricken from debates, from hence forth. So far as I've seen, it has only been used, on all sides, to shame the legitimate story-telling choices that the creator's make. Since television is, in fact, only fan-service in that it exists to entertain fans using any and all tools available, the argument about whether or not one plot point is more of a fan-service than another, is irrelevant, and purile.
Please provide a link for "Vocal Majority" if it does indeed exist.
I have no idea what Operation Trenchcoat was but I can well imagine it met with derision from the very people who are now bombarding TPTB with tweets and complaints.
And I will quite happily report you for being so patronizing.
www.wetpaint.com/network/articles/will-season-8-be-the-end-for-supernatural-cw-president-mark-pedowitz-weighs-in
Of course, nothing's concrete until the actual pickups are made, but it's super nice knowing that the CW is finally behind Supernatural
Also reviews is always one person's view on the show, scenes, and characters, it depends if you agree with what the person is saying, but it doesn't mean anything except on person, fan, enjoyed that specific scene and or character. like for me, one fan, didn't enjoy the trenchcoat scene because the delivery was so OTT, my reason for not liking it is the same reasons Jensen gave.
The show would definitely survive without Cas. But there are many fans who don't want it to. And many fans who wouldn't enjoy it enough to watch it anymore (my younger brother being one of them. I tried to get him to watch this season after Cas died, but he refused.) Ratings are definitely important (especially to the survival of a show) they're just not necessary 100% accurate. :)
I love Jensen's acting, too. I think he could easily earn an Oscar, on a film. He deserves a lot more recognition than he receives. And, since he's the one who picked up the trenchcoat out of the lake, it makes sensen he'd have to deal with it later, lol. :) I love this show, man. I love this show.
Yes, on the same night as the Hunger Games premiered. The fourth-biggest premier in movie history, and a night when ratings were down across the board.
Quoting JessicaG:
Then he isn't going to hurt them any more than they already have been hurt, is he?
LOL NOPE. I am a person, I am not sick of the angel storyline. If they continue with it, and some fans stop watching, other fans will take their place who love the angel story. :) Just that simple.
Someone please explain me what happened here.
Where I'd been disappointed with season 7 for so long (despite a few really good episodes) the finale raised my hopes super high because of the awesome place it left everyone, and what I hoped it all meant for season 8. Sigh. I suppose we shall see what we shall see.
Well said. Justice for John Winchester!
He wasn't that bad! He did his best considering what he lost and taking into consideration he was scared to lose his kids and also felt he needed to stop evil (as a vet of the Vietnam War it wouldn't be in soldier character to not go after the enemy before it came back to get him or the rest of his family).
What bugged me the most is John being a terrible father only came up after he was dead. I mean, the guy's dead, and before that they showed John in a more sympathetic light. Why make it all negative after he's dead? Kind of cruel.
However, the show will always be primarily about Sam and Dean. So much so, that I don't personally understand why it's an issue of contention. I haven't seen one person suggest a permanent separation, because almost everyone loves Sam and Dean and their story. :)
I have one big rule here. All opinions are welcome, but please be civil and respectful of other posters. Sam fans, Dean fans, Cas fans, it doesn't matter. We're all Supernatural fans and are allowed to love the show in different ways.
I'm STOKED we get more Cas, though. Here's hoping he's in a lot of episodes! (I missed him like crazy last season - I love the brothers, but Cas is my favorite. ^_^)
I concur with all of THIS. 'Nuff said.
Many fans are assuming he is there, but he did zap away, indicating somebody forced him out of there. There was an article by Robert Singer that said Crowley might have had a hand in taking Cas from Purgatory.
The idea of Crowley somehow removing Cas is very interesting to me but I don't think he'd have time to do it. But then again we have no clue how much time passed between Dick exploding and Cas waking Dean up in Purgatory.
My interpretation was that Cas fluttered of somewhere to find shelter but I'd be equally interested in Crowley forcing him out.
In the quote it was implied Crowley might have had a hand in sending Cas to Purgatory with Dean. It wasn't at all hinted that he might have pulled Cas out of Purgatory.
OH, that! Thanks, I was getting really confused. I believe Mark Shepard said something about that at one point but I didn't know Singer had said something too.
Everything I've heard about and seen of Kevin has utterly failed to impress, so I'm not particularly happy he's going to be a central part of the season.
Also not at all happy about the 'Dean finds his way out' spoiler, but cinging on to the faint and fleeting hope that that's just a deceptive turn of phrase.
I am also not a fan of Indiana Jones and am dearly hoping that S8 is as 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' as S7 was 'Butch Cassidy and Sundance Kid'. God, I miss the days when seasons had stories, not themes!
But from these spoilers, the ideas themselves aren't appealing to me much this year. Last year, I was hoping they delivered on the picture the interviews were painting. Right now, I'm hoping they have something better planned that they're not articulating well enough or else are deliberately hiding.
Even allowing for the best possible execution, I'm not too thrilled. Politics, even supernatural politics, is not the Winchesters' forte. And unlike Butch and Sundance and even 'noir', there aren't many elements of Indiana Jones that make me think of Supernatural.
But it's early yet. Hopefully other Comic-Con spoilers appeal to me more.
I couldn't agree more w/you. There is nothing apealing about these spoilers to me. I haven't seen Raiders or Butch and Sundance.
All I hope for is a good story, and I don't have much hope for even that!
It must be Dean or Sam to get Dean out of Purgatory, NOT Cas or some new monster or something.
It must be Dean and Sam who save the world, hell and heaven for humans, angels and demons, period. NOT Cas, Crowley, Kevin or some new character. PERIOD.
The rest can take a flying leap.
Exactly all of this. I'm extremely pessimistic about season 8 to be honest. I want Sam and Dean to be the central characters on their own show. I'm so sick of the angel storyline garbage.
It's always ultimately been the brothers who save the world. The other characters just help them do it. The brothers couldn't actually do it (or have done it) without help from the other characters.
I had originally said I didn't want flashbacks but it sounds like it will be telling both brothers stories that way so I think that will work out. JC's FTBMAY was very even handed (I thought) in dealing with both brothers when they were apart so hopefully this will too.
I'm glad we're going back to angels and demons - and whatever monster Purgatory coughs up next. I liked Kevin Tran so I'll be pleased to have him in the cast for season 8.
I hope they remember Raiders of the Lost Ark was a fun movie too. They did their best to forget that with Butch & Sundance.
I notice how I have zero trust in any of them anymore. And a lot of you seem to agree with my crabby foreshadowing. I'll still watch as always of course. lol
OMG it would have been so epic, in the literal meaning of the word. I'd have loved this through to the mid-hiatus, then continue with the save the Kevin/get Crowley plot. Imagine all the old characters they could have met. sigh*
Am I alone in thinking the fans are better at imagining stories than the writers lately? What is the problem there? It seems to write itself, and it seems it would take so little to fix it and make everyone happy.
Dean's in Hell. Sam's in Hell. Dean's in Purgatory. I think it would have been much more interesting to see both Sam and Dean in Purgatory. That would have given them a whole new canvas in which to play. I like that idea more than just seeing Dean (or Sam) in Purgatory.
Quoting Laurie:
Great post! I couldn't agree more w/you, Laurie. That would have been epic, and like you said by mid-season, they could have returned and went w/their Kevin/Crowley plot!
And, no, you are definitely not alone in thinking the fans have better imaginations than the writers. I could list several interesting ways Sam's hallucinations/Hell pain could have played out this year, and none involve him rubbing a healed scar on his hand! LOL!
First, I am thrilled to have Castiel back (as a series regular, I pray). For me, he adds an indefinable value to the show. Misha's acting, Castiel's versatility, and both of their contributions to the on-screen SPN "Family" were sorely missed last year. It's because of Castiel that I love the boys, and Bobby, and the show. I would have hated to never see him again.
Second, I am delighted that we'll be spending some time in Purgatory, whether in flash-back form or in real-time. It is probably my favorite plot development since the angel-arc was introduced in season 4. The promise of new monsters and desperate adventures has me on the edge of my seat with impatience.
Third, I look forward to seeing the brothers mend their broken relationships, with each other and with Cas. It has been a long time coming. It's been hard on everyone. The isolation was a good idea in theory, but I feel like the writers, by stranding the brothers, without even each other to lean on, left a lot of the audience emotionally stranded as well. This new season looks like it will be a time of healing and growth, and I can't wait.
Fourth, and finally, I am so glad to have Mr. Jeremy Carver back on the show! Many of my favorite episodes are a result of his handiwork and participation. I think he has a strong sense of what this show is about, and how to best put it into action.
Thank you for the spoilers!
A time jump and flashbacks could be good, if they're done right but after the last two seasons I don't exactly have my hopes up.
I know Carver will be back and perhaps his style of showrunning will result in a more cohesive season, but who knows.
I also wanted to add that I am among those who believe Cas is still in Purgatory. I thought his poof routine was a cheap shot at a cliffhanger because wouldn't it be difficult to get out of Purgatory? *shrug* I do like the idea of Crowley pulling him out. I am so ready for Crowley to finally be the big bad.
So don't watch it. :) Those of us who will still love the show, and the angels, will watch it instead, and happily.
Next, I'm PSYCHED to have angels and demons back in the mix. They make the supernatural world feel so much larger and grander, rather than claustrophobic. The cosmic turf wars have always intrigued me. I can't wait!
Last, I'm worried about Cas's role in the season. He has so much potential and I get sick of seeing him ignored in favor of weak one-shot episodes. The statement about Cas is so vague it's hard to tell, but I hope he regains the presence he had in season 5, showing up to help the brothers and expand his own story in the process.
Another thing that annoys me is that neither of the brothers seems to be allowed ot have anyone in their lives but eachother. Anyone the brothers love or get close to dies. (John, Bobby, Ellen, Jo, Ash, Cas, and that's not even close to half of them) They need other people in their lives they can depend on. It seems like 'Dean is showing interest in/paying attention to someone other than Sam? Kill them' and vice versa. 'That really great story line we came up with might mean that Sam and Dean are actually their own person and have their own lives? drop it.' and just UGH it's annoying. I love the show to death and I'm not hating. Just point out that the brothers should be allowed to have other people in their lives.
No, Dean revolving around Sam is stale and old.
I really hate they will reunite the brothers so quickly, sorry... I LOVE their relationship but I really would have loved to explore this kind of separation which is out of their control, not because they're pissed/disappointed at each other, like it happened in the past. I personally think it would have been a great opportunity to explore the characters on their own while being all about getting back to each other, until we got a major epic reunion. I mean some time will happen and all so for the characters it may feel that way, but as a viewer I won't really get to explore the separation much.
Another thing I don't like... That absolute "No" about Sam saving Dean from purgatory... I mean I'm realistic and I understand that it wouldn't be logical that Sam managed to save Dean on his own when Cas and Crowley had so much trouble openning purgatory, but I was hoping to see him desperately TRYING to find a way even if in the end it wasn't him who did the saving. I guess we can still see that in flashbacks, but I dunno... the answer kinda disappointed me, though I like the idea of Dean finding his way out of there somehow... That sounds like totally badass Dean lol I like that heh.
I'm curious as to where Cas is though, it really seems like he was pulled out of Purgatory, which is the impression that I got in the finale, until I read the comments and people seemed conviced he was still there. Wherever he is, I'm just hoping beyond hope that they're done messing up with his character... Crazy!Cas was funny but I want the Cas who cares and fights for good cause back, so he can truly redeem himself... I don't want him to still be afraid of intervene in fear of messing up even more. :/
The thing that worries me the most about the interview though is about Jeremy Carver not really changing things up. I'm sorry Singer, but S7 sucked impressively in both character development and storyline... so I'm certainly hoping for some changes. Less MOTW and more actual plot, character development, brother moments and supporting characters who are used as more than simple tools for more unnecesary against. Thank you very much. Still hoping for the best on S8! :)
It is VERY possible to keep the story moving and entertaining, all the while the characters don't actually speak with or meet with one another. The boys can be separated, the story can continue both in purgatory and out of it. It isn't that hard - c'mon SPN writers, don't get rid of the purgatory plot just because they brother's aren't together!
I want him to save Dean but dont think he will .I want him to not be just fine after his trauma but think he will be. After 7.17 I wasnt going to go into season 8 with huge expectations and still dont.
Sam deserves being the one saving Dean, though, and we fans have been waiting to see it since season 3!
No one, from any faction, can claim to speak for the whole fandom. And even if it was possible to get an idea of what the majority views were in the online fandom, they would in no way reflect the views of the 2m + (more worldwide) wider audience of the show.
My sense from being active in the online fandom for a long time, and from the people I know who watch the show in real life, is that most are not extremists. Most are into Sam and Dean and their relationship. I think as that has been the main focus for all of the life of the show most who really don't like that wouldn't still be here. But for most they don't think that is an exclusive thing. It is a base from which views on what ELSE they enjoy vary. Alot probably ALSO like Cas, and/or like Cas and Dean's friendship, and like Bobby. Some of these (let's call them) 'mainstream' fans love the angel storyline, some don't, some prefer Sam (but still love Dean) and some vice versa. Some really put a high priority on the bros relationship, for others it is just part of the mix but they'd be happy to see other things explored. Some love early seasons, some later. Some prefer motw, some prefer arc eps. Some love TFW, some prefer more focus on Dean and Sam with Cas used sparingly. I could go on. What I am describing (I hope) is the broad central ground in which I believe the views of most SPN fans fall. The foundations of it, and the thing most of that group shares, is a love of the basic premis (2 brothers who love each other, and their personal / professional fight against evil) as the framework on which everything else is built.
Then you have the extremists eg;
- Sam fans who want Sam to be the centre of everything, who say we never see his POV, and whose love for Sam makes them angry with Dean and / or hate Cas
- Dean fans who are always angry that Dean always has his story pinched by someone else, who think he can do no wrong, who think Sam doesn't deserve him.
- Dean / Cas fans who don't care about the bros relationship, who want D/C to get loads more screen time, who believe Cas is better for Dean than Sam, who believe Dean cares more for Cas than Sam, who think the 'profound bond' they see should be the centre of the show.
- Wincest and Destiel fans who want their ships to be canon or think they are canon.
Etc etc.
These extreme fans tend to shout louder than the mainstream, but that doesn't make them greater in number. And because they are so vocal and passionate, and because the views held by these different groups of extreme fans are diametrically opposed, their debates make the fandom look more divided and angry than I believe it really is.
Personally I am in this mainstream group. I watch for Dean and Sam, but I like Cas and Bobby fine. I liked TFW. I want the writers to include other characters, particularly Cas, in a non divisive way that brings with them as much of the fandom as possible. For me that means no extreme solutions that would thrill some and enrage others (eg ep after ep of Dean and Cas bonding while Sam is elsewhere, or killing off / writing out Cas).
Yes! And since Cas only divides these very small extreme minorities, the wider division you hinted at further up in your post is an illusion.
If you mean my statement that Cas is divisive, then yes the majority of this is driven by the extremists I agree (although there are disagreements about balance and priorities linked to Cas within the mainstream fans too). But I still think that the writers need to deal with the Cas issue in a way that brings the majority of fans with them. Fans can be driven out of the mainstream into extreme groups when stories are badly, or extremely handled. Eg some who are now extreme Dean fans became so, and became very anti Sam, due to the s4 storyline.
This, from your first post: "In a debate on another board a few days ago I made the point that Cas was a character that divided the fandom".
The more extreme fans will always be the ones who are most vocal because they are not seeing what they want, which tends to be the show weighted very far toward one character or one situation which the writers will never do. (I know, I know - in my opinion -- obviously folks think they already have done it - hence the outcries.)
That being said, the groups have made valid points, I believe, about issues to do with their favorite characters , which the writers could address - although even if they do, it probably won't be 'enough' to please.
Certainly the anti-Cas fans started screaming very loudly once the finale appeared to strand Cas in Purgatory with Dean instead of Sam. And all of a sudden they started finding fault with the entire season, when they had previously been telling those of us who were complaining about how awful it was that the show and the brotherly bond were so much better now the show was back to basics (ie: no Cas).
Yes, there is no denying fans did that, but they are allowed to express their disappointment, just like I didn't care when extreme Cas fans were screaming foul and putting organizations together to bring Cas back and bring him to every episode. I mean you can't accept one part of fandom because you like what they are preashing, but diss the other side of fandom because they are screaming about something you don't want. It's hypocritical.
Yet you seem to be very hypocritical in that you were the first one to diss the Cas fans for their complaining? Oh… is it only hypocrisy when Casfans do it? I see.
But sadly, like I said above it is very hard to talk to someone, discuss opinions, unpopular or negative ones without someone crying 'wank and or drama' starter. All I really wanted to do is talk to fans about the show, whether we agree of not. I don't see how that constitutes as wank.
The way you put it here makes it sound extreme, but I deliberately didn't include this because I believe an attachment to the brothers - albeit with varying levels of attachment - forms the common ground at the heart of the fandom. Like it or not, Dean and Sam ARE together pretty much all the time. That is how the show is structured. People who hate a family living together in close quarters, sharing everything etc would never have become fans of The Waltons. Same with SPN. It's always been Dean and Sam, living, working, driving together, even sharing a room. That's the premis of the show. So by my definition people who enjoy that are not extremists.
Quote:
I totally agree with this. Too often people confuse 'not what I wanted' with 'poor quality'. The writers have an unenviable task.
But you bias your argument by either not recognizing that there ARE extreme brother fans, who are also divisive in the fandom, or by folding them in with the more moderate fans and validating THEIR extremism while condeming others'.
I don't mind the flashbacks since I have zero interest in the Wacky Adventures of Dean and Cas in Purgatory. The sooner the boys are reunited the better and it's a good thing that in spite of all the noise, the producers remember that a significant chunk of fandom has always enjoyed/still enjoys/and will always enjoy the Winchesters together, fighting side by side.
I'm delighted that Kevin will be back to play an integral part this season. Those who keep clamoring for more side characters should be celebrating too. Time to give a new side character the spotlight and a chance to bond with the Winchesters. Right?
I'm also looking forward to that S2 and 3 feel. I've been waiting for it to come back since the dreaded S4.
I'm very happy about Kevin being around for S8 too.
Warning by Alice - Yeah, I don't get this. Sounds like you are trying to stir up trouble. Perhaps something a little more introspective?
Hopefully "a number of times" means a lot of Castiel, and not some evil, twisted version either. And now killing him off anymore, please. I missed him terrible.
I´d be happier if they gave us a little more concrete answer about Cas, but it can´t be worse then season 7 (I hope)
For instance, the better fanfiction out there is generally regarded as the ones that stay true to the characters. The worse ones are the self inserts, where the author writes him/her-self or a generic character into a romantic relationship with their favorite characters. But I think, in real life, most people would probably classify a romance they're actually involved in as healthier than a purely voyeristic one.
Does reading slash mean that the reader wants to spy on same sex couples in real life? For all the women out there who read slash, does that mean that they secretly want to have sex changes? Do men who watch girl on girl porn secretly want to be women? No. It's the fantasies, the fiction, that appeals to them. Likewise, just because some one reads incest fiction, doesn't mean that's something they secretly want to engage in.
Second, Destiel isn't a perfectly normal, socially acceptable relationship either. Right off the bat you've got inter-species, massive age difference, and a character whose in a body that doesn't belong to him. None of that makes reading it wrong. People who say that's indicative of some larger 'sick' impulse aren't right and shouldn't be listened to. But you've hardly got much of a moral high ground to stand on.
Third, what Beth said.
1) Sam tried his best to save Dean from hell, he tried to make deals with demons and the only reason he started honing on his "skills" is so that he can kill Lilith and bring Dean back. Dean was eventually saved by the angels but that is a different story altogether.
2) It is mentioned NOWHERE that Sam wouldn't be the one saving Dean.
3) This is just a part of the interview, we don't yet know what the rest says. I trust Jeremy Carver, he understands the show's concept very well and I am pretty sure he won't "sidetrack" Sam and Dean. Don't forget, he has given us some of the best episodes on Supernatural.
4) There is a HUGE part of fandom which hates it when Sam and Dean are apart for too long so I think it's a wise choice to cater to their wishes rather than catering to the wishes of a minority.
5)When was Sam ever "unscathed by trauma"? Sometimes I think some people see what they want to.
7) I don't think Dean needs any more show of love for Sam at the moment because they have been on the road for 8 yrs now and he knows how much Sam has given up for him or how much he loves him. Sam jumped into Lucifer's Cage basically for Dean.
Bottom line, this interview isn't even that clear. We REALLY can't tell what's gonna happen. Why bitch about something without competely understanding it. And how can some people start hating on something they love so quickly?
I don't understand why FBs prevent anyone from seeing Purgatory. It looks like they plan to show it.
Like I said, my fanfiction expectations were probably set way too high. The stories have Sammy riding in like a knight on a white horse, and have Purgatory throwing out some mind-twisting, angel-mutating stuff that was way too much for them to live up to. I figure if I just assume its going to be horrible then at least I won't be disappointed, and I still might get pleasantly surprised.
Even if Dean had remained in Purgatory, I guess I never would have really feared for him. He's a lead. He'll be fine. On LOST, I had more fear for main characters b/c there were like 900 of them. Hahaha! Any of the leads could have been killed - though there were three main main ones that were never gonna die - and the show would continue. Supernatural is not like that. Sam and Dean have to be present. Those two characters are the show.
Because I don't believe DEAN SHOULD BE REDUCED TO BEING A CARETAKER 24/7, who needs to be in constant physical proximity to Sam.
Because I want Dean to deal with his issues, solve his problems with Castiel and realize that he isn’t useless, isn’t worthless, isn’t just there to hold his brother’s hand.
Because using flashbacks is the same as re-telling a story, not actually telling one.
Because time apart for the brothers is healthy, especially after they were forced to be on their own without anyone else (who is close to them) to communicate with in season 7.
Because we might actually get a Sam POV and Dean plot if they are apart, with one being in Purgatory.
Because Dean never really got a meaningful story that centered around him in the first place. He was just there to react to things, never the driving force of the myth arc.
If Dean solves his problems (John’s influence over Dean), his interactions with other characters will improve and it will strengthen the bond between all of them. It will make Team Free Will stonger.
Dean cannot solve his problems, if he’s constantly attached to Sam. Why? Because he worries about him and this always takes precedence in the narrative. Being alone won’t make Dean stop worrying about Sam, but it will make him understand what it means to be an individual. And that is what I want to see. Dean being a strong individual.
Attaching the brothers 24/7 results in cheap storytelling ala Amy. It is an injustice to Sam's independence and Dean's individuality. It's mindless, pointless and shows no character growth whatsoever. Not to mention extremely repetitive.
And Singer got it all wrong.