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I have questions Please

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  1. Jen
    Jen
  2. Dean Winchester
  3. Tuesday, 24 November 2015
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I hate these Hellatus Breaks even if this is only a short one, they get you to thinking, HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL MY SPN FAMILY xxxxxxxxxxxxoooooooooo

Anyway I'm going to do this in point form because I'm not good at explaining myself. This season has been exciting and in general all eps have been Good to Brilliant, so here goes with my qustions.

1) What we learnt about the Moc back in "Blade Runners" was that Lucifer passed it to Cain after Lucifer tricked Cain into killing his brother to save him from going to hell
2) Cain became a Knight of Hell creating other Knights.
3) In comes Abadon a Knight of Hell who can be only killed by the first blade.
4) In comes the Blade. The blade can only work by someone wearing the Mark
5) In comes Dean the Mark gets transfered Cain to Dean == "With the Mark comes a Great responsibilty"
6) The blade is found given to Dean who is then gradually over time starts to show No control and wont;s to kill everything.
7) He uses it to kill Abadon & Metaron
8) Dean is killed by Metatron
9) Dean with the help of the blade comes back as Demon Dean a Knight of Hell
10) In comes Sam who saves his Brother but Dean still carries the mark and is influenced by its power
11) Dean eventually kills Cain Castiel then takes the Blade and hides it.
12) Dean is still struggling with the power of the mark and goes on various killing sprees and has anger management problems / then in the climax of S10 kills Death
13) Sam eventually with the help of Crowely. Cas. Rowenna removes the mark
14) By removing the mark which actually was a Lock & Key they release the Darkness / Amara who is God's sister and locked away mega eons ago because God wanted to create Man. Now I know Death said that the Mark was originally given to Lucifer God's most trusted angel who was then corrupted by the mark and did a whole lot of bad things so God sent him to hell
15) But Lucifer & Michael along with other Arch - Angels help God defeat the Darkness and lock her away -- hence the lock & key

If I'm not to far off with my understanding of the story of the Mark == that makes me very confused which story is correct ?? === or is this part of S11 deception story line
How can the Mark have two story lines. Please help a very confused with nothing better to do Fan who has probably had one to many amber drinks HHHHMMMMMMM
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Tealka
Tealka
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Great question, Jen! The whole business of the MOC is confusing to me, too, mainly because of what Death told Dean: "Before there was light, before there was the archangels and God, there wasn't nothing. There was the Darkness, a horribly destructive, amoral force that was beaten back by God and his archangels in a terrible war. God locked the Darkness away where it could do no harm, and he created a mark that would serve as both lock and key, which he entrusted to his most trusted lieutenant, Lucifer. But the mark began to assert its own will, revealed itself as a curse, and began to corrupt. Lucifer became jealous of man, God banished Lucifer to hell. Lucifer passed the mark to Cain who passed the mark to you, the proverbial finger in the dike."

So, according to this, somehow the mark created by God is the origin of evil in the universe, which means that, ultimately, God is responsible for evil. Either that, or the mark was influenced to surrender its will to the origin of evil, whoever or whatever that is. Once removed from Dean this evil mark flew away and attached itself to the Darkness--freeing the "horribly destructive" force which is, presumably, not evil but "amoral."

None of this sense to me at all.
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njspnfan
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You're right; I think they've intentionally kept things vague or open for interpretation because they either weren't or aren't sure where they're going with the story.

2) Cain became a Knight of Hell creating other Knights.
Lucifer created/hand picked the Knights of Hell; Cain was the first and trained the others

The question also still remains whether Dean was also a Knight of Hell when he became a demon at the end of S9. Dean did refer to himself as a Knight of Hell in 10.05 Fan Fiction when he was filling Marie in on what happened to the Winchesters after Chuck stopped writing the books.

5) In comes Dean the Mark gets transfered Cain to Dean == "With the Mark comes a Great responsibilty"
Cain shared the Mark with Dean; he did not completely transfer it as he still carried the Mark at the same time Dean carried it. Which is very confusing because Lucifer could not have still been carrying the Mark; otherwise the lock/key would still have been in place when Rowena's spell removed the Mark from Dean and the Darkness would not have been released. Unless the spell removed the Mark from Lucifer as well which is one possible explanation for the noises coming from the cage.

7) He uses it to kill Abadon & Metaron
He only killed Abaddon; Metatron was powered by the angel tablet (the word of God), which was more powerful than the Mark of Cain, and killed Dean but, because the Mark would not let go, Dean became a demon.

14) By removing the mark which actually was a Lock & Key they release the Darkness / Amara who is God's sister and locked away mega eons ago because God wanted to create Man. Now I know Death said that the Mark was originally given to Lucifer God's most trusted angel who was then corrupted by the mark and did a whole lot of bad things so God sent him to hell.
15) But Lucifer & Michael along with other Arch - Angels help God defeat the Darkness and lock her away -- hence the lock & key

Yes, but Lucifer had not been corrupted yet when God and the archangels defeated the Darkness and locked it away; God entrusted Lucifer with the lock and key and that is what made Lucifer go darkside and enter the Garden of Eden to corrupt mankind. Eventually God had Michael cast Lucifer in to hell to lock him away.
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Tealka
Tealka
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njspnfan, you and Jen are discussing a truly problematical point I'd never thought of. From what Death said, God created the mark which "began to assert its own will, revealed itself as a curse, and began to corrupt." Evidently, this means that the mark corrupted Lucifer. But, as you point out, Jen, we never saw Lucifer wearing the mark. Could he have been corrupted merely by having the mark in his possession?

More baffling still to me is the idea that the mark "revealed itself as a curse." A couple of possibilities:

1) A curse can be defined as "a solemn utterance intended to invoke a supernatural power to inflict harm or punishment on someone or something" or as "an appeal or prayer for evil or misfortune to befall someone or something." Both of those definitions suggest that a higher supernatural power--other than God--was responsible for the mark going evil.

2) A curse can also be defined as "a source or cause of evil." If it's the source of evil, the mark itself would be a supernatural power outside of God's control. As the source/cause/origin of evil in the universe, in effect, the mark would be the real Devil, while Lucifer is merely one of those tempted by the mark.

I'm inclined to believe that Carver has #1 in mind. The mark asserted its own will in opposition to the will of God, then ultimately attached itself to Amara, freeing the Darkness. This suggests that the mark itself was tempted/influenced by the Darkness, even though the Darkness was imprisoned. Thus, the Darkness, not Lucifer, is the real source of evil in the universe.

Actually, that makes sense to me. As I remember, the theological question has sometimes been raised about how Lucifer could have be the source of evil in the universe. After all, he was merely an angel--not a supernatural entity powerful enough to rival God and threaten His creation. From what we've been told, the Darkness has such power. And even though Death said it's "amoral," it can also be considered evil. "Evil" is often defined as the absence of good--or God.

Also intriguing to me is that phrase about the mark beginning "to assert its own will." Doesn't that imply the mark is an intelligent, even perhaps a living entity? If the mark were personified, it could be a very scary being.
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Jen
Jen
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Thank you Tealka - I will re-read your reply I understand where your coming from I think But this whole "Mark/Darkness" does give one a headache, Maybe we should just go with the show on this one and see what happens. Thanks everyone I'm glad I gave you some food for thought
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