Supernatural Review of 10:23    “My Brother’s Keeper”

Directed by Phil Sgriccia 
       
Written by Jeremy Carver

Original airdate 5/20/2015


“The Greater Love"

THEME

It’s all about the love one is willing to sacrifice in order to keep that one true love. Besides their brotherly love, there has always been one love that the Winchester brothers were willing to die for. There is one love both brothers would sacrifice each other for. There is one love motivating all that the brothers do. This is their love for the good and the innocent of the world and this love requires their wholehearted commitment and protection.

PLOT/CHARACTERS

“The Keeper”:  Sam methodically concocts “hollow tips filled with Witch Killing Brew” and sends futile messages to Dean. Castiel enters to discuss their commitment to using the spell to rid Dean of the Mark of Cain. Sam has taken on the responsibility helping his brother. Is he his brother’s keeper? Well, he is trying to be.

s10e23 45


“Face Down”: His face planted on the rug of a No Name Motel floor, Dean looks rough. Beer bottles litter the room where he’s literally fighting his demon. He drinks the stale bitter remnants of the night before. “I’m good.” He lies to himself.

s10e23 64

“Gang of Fang”:Agent Dean appears at a crime scene to assist Rudy with clearing out a nest of Vampires; but, Demon Dean is only there for the kill. Dean doesn’t conceal his contempt for the dead Rose, slut shaming her for “looking like a whore”. (TWEET: Briana Buckmaster:   “Sorry? A short skirt makes a gal a whore?”) The Officer chastises Dean for being callous, speculating that previous dark work has left a ‘mark’ on Dean. Dean rudely tells Rudy to leave.

s10e23 90
 
“Rowena Calls the Shots”: Sam and Castiel enter with a loaded gun to encourage Rowena. Rowena is having none of that. She has a wee cup of tea to drink. They renegotiate and an agreement is reached: her freedom, and the Codex, in exchange for the spell.

s10e23 118

“No Sugar Coating”: Dean interrogates Rose’s parents about her whorish behaviour. He assesses the situation and lays it out for them, “I came here and I smelled the deceit and the beatings and the shame that pervade this home and you know what, I don’t blame Rose anymore. No wonder she put on that skank outfit and went out there looking for validation right into the arms of the monster that killed her. Joe, who did this?” This isn’t Dean; it’s Demon Dean, and he’s craving a kill. Rose’s brother, guilt ridden, tells Dean where the Gang of Fang is.

s10e23 175

“Ingredients”: The forbidden fruit, the golden calf, and the death of someone Rowena loves is not impossible because “Everyone loves something.” Rowena loves Oskar, a Polish boy. Rudy calls to tell Sam that Dean’s “not playing well with others” on the Fang Banger case. Sam gives Castiel Dean’s hair to work a crossroads conjuring.

s10e23 201

“Fang Bangers Domicile”: A vampire washes his guilty, bloody hands and sniffs Dean too late. Demon Dean decapitates the vampire and kicks in the door. Crystal screeches on the bed while a vampire puts Rudy in a chokehold. Demon Dean could care less. “Do it!” He goads the vampire into stabbing Rudy and then decapitates the Vampire. Crystal: You coulda just talked. You just…   Dean: You're Welcome.  Demon Dean callously steps over Rudy on his way out.

s10e23 215

“Washing Hands”: As Dean washes the guilt from his hands images appear before him in the mirror of a bloody Castiel and Rudy. For a brief heart breaking moment, we see the real Dean as horror and fear flash across his face. Then Demon Dean takes over elbowing the real Dean in the mirror. Demon Dean and the real Dean thrash it out in the motel room.  

s10e23 245

“Love For Love”: Sam takes in Dean’s damage trail, while Castiel summons Crowley to the crossroads. Classic Castiel and Crowley lines reminds us that we’ve been missing them this season. Given an option of “Blast or Beg” Castiel, weakened, but desperate to save the brother he loves does his best to plead for Crowley’s help. Crowley, reflecting on his love for revenge, agrees, “I’m in.”  Sam sees the destroyed motel room. (TWEET: Alaina Huffman: Dean’s going to lose the deposit on that room.) Sam finds the keys to the Impala and a note on a Curtis Motor Court writing pad; “She’s all yours.” Dean loves his Baby but he gives her up to the brother he loves. Sam, however, is not ready to let go of the brother he loves.

s10e23 297

“Date with Death”: Dean miraculously found time to decorate a deserted roadhouse and cook a “Bad fat” Mexican feast for Death, who loves a good snack. He summons Death to a “Party at Juanita’s”. “Kill me” now. Death, perfectly personified by Julian Richings, is unable to kill Dean. He retells the story of Genesis, yes for real, and reveals that the Mark is both lock and key preventing the darkness from entering the world.

script

Death tells Dean he has the option of giving the Mark to someone else; but, Dean cannot do that to anyone. Death then offers to relocate him somewhere far away, off the planet. The catch is that Sam has to die to ensure Dean and the Mark remain far away. Dean calls Sam to the party telling him, “Brother, I’m done.”

s10e23 344

Phil/ Seth/Oskar/Nathan Dales’ Diner: If you were wondering about the expense of this set’s decor in the last episode, now you know. Crowley enters with a smack down and outs Oskar.

s10e23 379

“Outer Space”: Dean and Death fill Sam in on the plan. “What? He’s gonna send you into outer space? This is madness, Dean.” (I have to agree with Sam here.) Sam is unconvinced that he should die for the greater good.

“The Cost”: Crowley has the ingredients.The quince cost me a major IOU from a Palestinian warlock, the gold from the calf -- well let's just say I'll be hanged under certain sexual deviancy laws if I show my face in Jordan again.” Crowley came to the realization that his mother is capable of love, a moment the audience was not privy to, and that she simply does not love him. Rowena claims to have never loved anything, ever. Crowley snaps and in walks Oskar. (Would you give up an Oskar for Magic?)

s10e23 502

Death tells Sam he must die to prevent further interference and “Then there was that time you stood me up.” Dean tries to convince Sam that the world would better without them because they are evil. He reminds Sam about the man he convinced to sell his soul, and how he bullied Charlie. Sam disagrees saying they were trying to do good and that Dean has done everything he could to remain good. Inexplicably, Sam punches Dean and they physically fight. Demon Dean kicks Sam’s butt to the floor. Sam gives up but refuses to say that Dean is anything but good. (Rather pointless violence.) Sam horks a blood gob on the floor and agrees that Demon Dean must be stopped. “Do it.” Sam echoes Dean’s earlier words. Death offers Dean the scythe. “Close your eyes.” The real Dean peeks through. Dean is unable to look at those puppy dog eyes and kill him. Sam cries. “Sammy, close your eyes.” (Ok that got me.)

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“Wait.” Sam takes out Dean’s treasured photos telling Dean to keep them to guide him and help him remember goodness and what it was to love.  (TWEET: Ryan Curtis “I imagine Dean being on a tiny planet. All alone. Looking at those photos.”) Aww, just like the Little Prince. “Do it” Death says “or I will.” Sam nods. Dean says, “Forgive me.” Then, in a surprising twist for everyone, including Dean, Demon Dean paradoxically kills Death. Death crumbles to dust. The Winchesters were willing to sacrifice themselves and each other for the good of the world. The Mark was not.

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“Love Sacrifices”: Rowena must kill the one person she loved to gain the magic and freedom she loves more. With a hug and vicious stab to the throat with a fountain pen, Rowena makes her choice. Castiel looks away from the brutal blood spilling, willing to sacrifice his principles for the love of Dean. The incantation produces a knock down explosion and a streak of light that descends on the Mark and removes it upwards through the ceiling of Juanita’s roadhouse. Rowena, released from her chains, binds Castiel and Crowley.  “Attack like a beast!” she commands Castiel while scoffing at Crowley’s disbelief, and ours, that she could be this powerful. She is delighted that Crowley will see what a true witch can do as he dies under her order, “Erase this evil.” Off she goes, headed into another well-earned season.

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“Famous Last Words” “This is good. You get the mark off your arm. You get your baby back” Meteorites from Smallville descend into the earth. Streaks of black smoke rebirth, congregate, and begin to roll towards them. (TWEET: William Shatner: It’s like that Once Upon A Time Curse.) Dean and Sam rush to the Impala. Reversing, Dean hits a plothole sinking Baby up to her axles. (I’m sorry did I say ‘plotholes’, I meant ‘potholes’.)  The Evil Darkness rolls over them. Back into the Black Abyss.

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The Script

Confronted with wrapping the season up, tying loose plot points together that seriously tugged in many directions, plus formulating a cliff-hanger was no easy task for Carver. It was disappointing. There was excessive back-story catch-up and not just for this season but the whole Supernatural universe. Although the Book of the Damned plot flowed smoothly and predictably, the bargain with Death was overloaded. “Genesis was a lie? Shocker!” Although Death made a dead on delivery, there was too much information and Biblical knowledge jammed into the plot too late.  

Sam: What evil?                  Dean: The Darknness

Sam: What the hell is that?

There were rather inexplicable events, too, such as the fistfight between brothers. Perhaps it was a late attempt to reproduce the Cain and Abel scenario. And, although there were some brilliant and memorable lines, there were many disturbing ones. We are accustomed to hearing misogynistic slurs while watching TV and movies but to have so many complied with in such a short time frame is repulsive. Was this intentional on Carver’s part? Does he know who makes up the majority of this fan base?

Dean: They let her leave the house looking like a whore.

Joe: By suggesting my daughter was a slut.

Dean: …skank outfit.

Dean: What the hell are you doing here Rudy?

Rudy: Oh, you know. Just this thing I got for dead girls.

Crowley: There once lived an evil bitch, sorry, witch.

Crowley: That lying manipulative whore mother of mine.

Crowley: Mother showed you her “mustn’t touch it’, again.

Death: Proverbial finger in the dyke.

Add some Oedipal complex, incest, Crowley’s sexual deviancy, and something “crawling up [Dean’s] ass” and it became excessive, rather like a teenager showing of their newfound knowledge of perversion. There was also some lost opportunities with signage: the No Name motel in Superior, Nebraska. Why? The signage of Kingdom Beer at the Crossroads, why, and Juanita’s. Why?

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NICE TOUCHES


Acting/Characterizations: The real vulnerable Dean peeking through the Demon Dean:  Jensen Ackles 

                                            Fiery Rowena: Ruth Connell

                                            Angelic Castiel turning into a beast:  Misha Collins

                                            The old Crowley we love:  Mark Sheppard

                                             Delicious Death: Julian Richings

                                             The heart breaking, weeping, brave Sam: Jared Padalecki. 

Best Performance: (Super tough choice this episode) Jared Padalecki

Horror Element: The sniffing Vampire EWWW.

Special FX:  The incantation’s after effect . The Darkness rolling in.

Great Lines:    Gang of Fang, Fang Bangers,

                        Castiel: You're not in my contacts list

                        Crowley: Beg.

                        Rowena: Poor Dean. (sarcasm dripping)

                                       Goodness, Fergus, save it for the stage.

                                        Not my literal heart, Feathers.

Allusions:       Biblical - Pontius Pilot hand washing

                        Cain and Abel:“Am I my brother's keeper?"

                        Genesis

                        Whore of Babylon

                        Chess - Death: Dean Winchester has tipped over his king
                        Day of the Dead (Día de Muertos) 

Director/Cinematography:

The red light on Crowley, Dean and Death:   

The light that shines on Castiel:    14




Staring down the gun barrel: s10e23 145

Bloody knuckles and dead Rose high angle shot: s10e23 57

The POV shot on the bed with Crystal:   s10e23 198

Foreshadowing the pothole:   s10e23 367               

 

High angle shot at the end with the Impala and darkness:  s10e23 598

                                                                                          

Music/Sound FX: “Carry on My Wayward Son” and the howling sound of Darkness. 

Relatable Moment: That swig of the morning after, leftover beer.

                                        s10e23 51

Set: Juanita’s Day of the Dead décor and wall mural

 Juanitas


                                             

Thanks To:

Springsfield Screencaps

Supernatural Wiki

All stills property of CW’s Supernatural TV Series 

Comments  

Russ
# Russ 2015-05-22 01:47
Was it just me, or does the place where the bar for the final scene is, look exactly like the plot of land where the Harvelle's Roadhouse was located?

The placement of the sign outside was even in the exact spot where the fuel pump was at the Roadhouse.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-22 01:51
Yes it was the same location, also inside was the bar where Dean meets Sam with the MoC.
samandean10
# samandean10 2015-05-22 06:54
I thought instantly of the Roadhouse also. I guess they felt it was OK to reuse it since it's been so many years since the Roadhouse was last seen.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-05-23 22:08
What was up with all that Kingdom signage?
E
# E 2015-05-22 08:23
I have to agree with you Wednesday... there wasn't a lot to like here. The scene between the brothers was good (Jared in particular was fantastic and very in character) but everything else just fell completely flat for me. Once again, I found Dean nearly unwatchable; his harshness and mean words were so off putting that I wanted to see him get pounded. I know that they were trying to make a point about the MoC, but I cannot feel sympathy for Dean in this state, mark or no mark, not even after the fact when he was feeling bad. And since he was completely rational in the scene with Death, where he decided that Sam had to die, I am still unsure of exactly what the mark is doing to him. When is he out of control and when is he Dean and how are we supposed to tell? Does this mean that the Dean who wished his brother burning on the pyre instead of Charlie was rational, in control Dean like in this episode (where he also showed a desire for Sam's death) or was he out of control MoC Dean who gets hunters killed? It seems as though out of control Dean causes another hunter to get killed, and upsets the parents of a dead girl, but rational Dean can calmly and cooly decide that he can't subject the mark to another human being (that would be cruel after all) but also still decide that Sam needs to die so that Dean can be free of it? How does that work? What switch is being flipped in his brain that allows such contradicting thoughts and ideas? It's too confusing and basically I am just happy that this tiresome, contradictory, slow moving slugfest is over. In that respect this episode was AWESOME, but in all others it was pretty bad.

Rowena and Oskar? What was that? Was this Oskar character even mentioned at any other point since she's become a character? Did they just create him out of thin air so they'd have a way to work the spell? Why did she love this kid so much and not love her own son? It wasn't explained at all that I could see, basically making the whole situation and poorly conceive and executed contrivance. It was so lame, and the emotion being poured out by Rowena and Oskar felt totally unearned to me. I went back to hating Rowena in this episode. I mean really? Were we actually supposed to feel something for or from her? Bleh.

Cas is becoming as useless as Sam. And that's pretty much all I got to say about him.

Crowley was fine.. back to his old snarky self, but he still got duped by his mummy, so even though he got his snark back, it seems his smarts are still missing. I am producing that he will wiggle his way out of his predicament. Maybe THE DARKNESS will show up at the most opportune moment and distract Cas long enough for Crowley to get away.

Death's appearance was awful. Don't get me wrong... I have LOVED this character, his air of menace and power, but they destroyed him here, and I don't mean just by killing him, which in and of itself was beyond stupid, but by making him the deliverer of a huge boatload of information that we've never heard before and that hardly seems to be connected to Supernatural as a show, but has now been crammed down our throats in clunky boring dialog. JR had the unenviable task of being 'exposition boy' (Hey! That's Sam's job!). It's an ungrateful job too and here had the added disappointment of revealing to us that all of the story lines they've spent all this time building up were in fact about to come to nothing because of the introduction of an out of the blue and completely unknown force called THE DARKNESS (how original!). It seems that the writers aren't satisfied with cannibalizing itself for story ideas any more, they've turned to lifting from Buffy and Lost as well. I have a hard time believing that the Winchesters, who've lived in the world of the Supernatural since birth, have fought with demons and angels, Lucifer and Michael, who began and then averted the Apocalypse have never even HEARD of "the darkness." It's poorly set up and it's improbable even in this made up world of fantastical things. Clearly the writers are spitting into the wind here. None of what they've done polities has made much sense this year. The characters are all over the map, no one, it seems, is paying attention to canon, story consistency or characterizatio n. Everyone keeps saying what a GREAT episode writer Jeremy Carver is....well, I don't see it. He does OK when writing the brothers together in scene, but his plotting and pacing is the same as his show running, poor. As far as I am concerned he wrote one good finale (Sacrifice) and all other episodes penned by him have been mediocre at best. He did great in season 4 when Kripke was telling him what to write; either that or Mystery Spot was a fluke.
Russ
# Russ 2015-05-22 10:22
Quote:
Everyone keeps saying what a GREAT episode writer Jeremy Carver is....well, I don't see it.
I'm right there with you. His Sam & Cas, and Sam & Dean scenes at the end of Sacrifice was great (and so was Crowley's speech at the end of #9), but he hasn't written anything solid since Kripke left (he didn't write anything in 6 & 7). That goes to show how important a switched-on show-runner is. It's more than just OK'ing shit. Even after they've aired and you jump into binge-mode, nothing in the Carver-era coalesces like it should. It's all far too inconsistent.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2015-05-22 09:51
Thank you E. You've expressed my feelings on the episode and the whole of seasons 8, 9 and 10. I agree with everything you've written with one exception, I hated Sacrifice. Carver is killing my desire to watch SPN so I don't know if season 11 will be happening for me.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-22 10:14
I disagree, it was Dean coming back not the mark that killed Death.
Sam punched Dean to snap him out of it but the Pictures did that.
Thanks for translating the Latin for us.
Nogadamo Bhitia
# Nogadamo Bhitia 2015-05-22 11:36
"Finger in the dyke" has nothing to do with sex. It is "finger in the DIKE." It refers to the story of the little Dutch boy who kept his thumb in a leak in a dam until it could be repaired. His sister ran off to get help.

Demon Dean was a sexist, judgemental douche. Remember how callously he treated that waitress in the early episodes?

Demon Dean is completely disassociated from human emotion, as shown when he went after the vampires. This hunt was quite a contrast to the last time we saw him destroy a nest. That Dean was full of life, enjoying himself. Finale Dean sure wasn't having a good time.

We'll spend all summer arguing over which Dean killed Death. The Mark Dean, to protext himself? Or the real Dean, to protext Sam? Does it even matter now that the mark is gone?

Crowley still has a witch in a hamster cage. The boys can start hunting for other Men of Letters bunkers. Roweena's spells have a tendency to go all wonkers. There's so much fun we can have with all the loose ends that I'm looking forward to this summer's discussions almost as much as next season.

Taquitos, anyone?
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-22 12:03
I am to old to argue. Just MY comment.
Fi
# Fi 2015-05-22 12:01
Wow, this left me so torn up at the end. I actually really liked Season 10, right up until the last 2/3 episodes. There were some lovely, lovely moments out there. But...as others have mentioned before, it went sadly wrong, from the point when we saw Sam talking to Rowena. And it kills me to say it as I've loved this show since I first discovered it a couple of years ago and I still do. There's a lot still to love - the incredible acting and the heartbreaking scenes go without saying (and yes, I had a tear-up at “Sammy, close your eyes). Plus a revitalized Crowley is always a good thing. Rowena got much, much better and even a badly under-used and strangely inept Cas had his moments (Fish! Contacts list!) But it still wrecks me that at the last the writers completely wiped out all the good that was done with Sam's character, and that's not to detract from the actor's performance or the fact he was finally allowed to express properly what being with his brother and his life as a hunter meant to him. Sam would have understood that as friends, hunters and men of letters they were absolutely right to keep pursuing a cure since it wasn’t just about saving his brother. A MOC/Knight of Hell Dean would not be a good thing to have running loose in the world and they did show that perfectly in Dean’s last hunt – he was brutal! Dean mightn’t have liked what they were doing but Sam has always been strong enough to stand up to his family when he believed he was right and in this case he definitely was. Instead it almost felt like Sam actually deserved to die because of his now out-of-characte r mistakes. I think Dean convincing himself (and Sam) that Sam had to die would have had much more of an impact if had Sam remained the moral compass and brother that Dean trusted to save him. Sam deserved this, but now I have the sickening feeling we’ll be going into season 11 with a noble-even-thou gh-I-had-the-MO C-Dean blaming and attacking Sam – again! And no, this isn’t a Dean-bashing thing – I love BOTH my snarky, funny badass brothers and I miss them very, very much. It’s just I can’t see a way for them to get back to that relationship if Dean’s going to hold Sam responsible for releasing the Darkness and I really hope we don’t get a rerun of season 5 with Sam to blame for everything and Dean being only a little bit responsible.
Did I miss something somewhere or did absolutely no-one, not once, call Dean out on taking the Mark in the first place? I mean, it was a very Dean thing to do but to have no-one pointing out that it sort of was his fault in the first place…?
Wow…I really need to vent. Thanks ?
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-22 12:09
Read the old reviews. That's all they did was point that out.
Fi
# Fi 2015-05-22 12:29
Sorry, I meant in the show, not here on the site.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-05-22 12:34
I think Fi's point, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that it has never really been mentioned on the show.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-22 13:18
I understood, pumpkin. :)
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-05-22 18:09
sorry about that; had type my reply before Fi and it showed up later.
E
# E 2015-05-23 07:32
Quote:
Did I miss something somewhere or did absolutely no-one, not once, call Dean out on taking the Mark in the first place? I mean, it was a very Dean thing to do but to have no-one pointing out that it sort of was his fault in the first place…?
No, absolutely no one has. The fact that taking on the MoC was a really stupid and reckless thing to do has not been mentioned by any other character in any way. Sam and Cas have told Dean repeatedly that they are tying to save him but not that he should have read the fine print to begin with. Cain in his execution scene didn't remind Dean that he brought it on himself. Even Death, who has chastised Dean in the past didn't comment on Dean's actions at all, just offered him solutions. This is a major sticking point with me; Sam has been beaten up for THREE seasons now; first for "not looking" in season 8, then his harsh words in season 9 and now for pretty much anything he attempted to do in season 10. Every other character and Dean in particular has been repeatedly showing Sam how wrong he's been since season 8 in pretty much everything he does or doesn't do. This season was rife with anvils of the "Sam is making a mistake!" variety from everyone, and they just had to have Dean rehash his season 9 sentiments ("oh, so you've changed your mind on that, have you") in BoftheD. The double standard in how the show reflects on the actions of each of the brothers is glaring.

My biggest concern for season 11, especially with the writing staff and show runner they have now, is that Sam will be blamed by everyone for releasing the darkness and he alone will take the brunt of that blame. No one will remember that Dean's actions (taking the mark) and words (you said you wouldn't save me) triggered all ensuing events in the first place and that the killing of Death, a completely separate act, will have no repercussions at all. I guess we'll have to wait and see but I am not holding out much hope given what's gone before.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-05-22 12:13
OK, I watched again; less impressed this time. While the brother scene was well acted, paricularly by Jared, the setup was weak and didn't make a hell of a lot of sense to me. Yes, Death was concerned enough by the thought of "The Darkness" to do a long exposition scene with Dean, giving him the NSFW version of Genesis. If it was that big a concern, why not just have Death whisk Dean away to somewhere that he could do not harm, then come back and deal with Sam later? And wouldn't he have known what Sam was up to with the Book of the Damned, Rowena, etc.? With having never definitively seen God, isn't Death the most omnipotent being on the show (with the exception of Castiel's brief run as God II)? As much as I enjoy Death and the actor portraying him, he seemed way OOC in this episode. Big, big logic failures. I said it last year and I'll say it again, you can't fix season long problems with canon, story logic, and story flow with a well written episode and, in this case, the episode wasn't even that well written. Season 10 has surpassed Season 7 as my least favorite season.

Sorry about being so down on the episode; I know a lot of people enjoyed it and live for the broments but it just didn't work for me. The brothers, "maturely" working as a team, have broken the f'ing world again but hey, at least they're alive and talking. MoC Dean actually did say some things to Sam that made a lot of sense; if you're going to make a decision to try to close the gates of hell (IMO a bad idea), you better commit fully to it and see it thru.

While I didn't care that much for the Season 9 finale, at least Carver did a better job of cleaning up the mess he was left to deal with. And, quite honestly, that mess was of his own doing; he is the show runner, he is supposed to RUN THE SHOW !!!!!!!!!! They are clearly making this shit up as they go along; Kripke had a longer term vision; yes he tweaked and adjusted things along the way but did it in a way that kept moving towards his end goal.

I think it was Russ that made a great comment on the speculation discussion page for this episode

"One thing I loved about Kripke-era Supernatural, as unreal as it was, it felt so grounded and genuine. I believed, if this shit could happen, this is how it would happen."

Couldn't agree more with this; I have no idea how something as conceptual, ethereal as "The Darkness" is going to be able to be portrayed on a show like Supernatural; not terribly optimistic that they can pull it off.

And don't even get me started on Rowena..... ARGGGHHHHH!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!
samandean10
# samandean10 2015-05-22 14:13
Hi njspnfan. While I'm still troubled by how easily Death was killed (if in fact he was), I don't think he's ever been portrayed as omnipotent. Both Lucifer and the brothers were able to bind him with a spell. And apparently before Lucifer raised him, he was buried deep (who knows where) so he was not this omnipresent being either. So I think even under Kripke and Gamble the extent of his powers was a little vague. As far as him knowing what was going on with the BOTD, he didn't even seem to have known that Dean had the MOC. So I guess he's not omniscient either! He did once say that he would turn his attention to a better "planet." So maybe his responsibilitie s elsewhere keep him too busy to always know what is going on here on earth. I guess my roundabout point is that it's never been totally clear what the limits are of Death's powers, and why he sometimes chooses to get involved with the Winchesters. It made sense when he was trying to get out from under Lucifer's control, and maybe even when he helped with the Leviathan, but his other steps to help the brothers seemed a little beneath him. You make a good point about why he didn't just whisk Dean away and then kill Sam, but again, that doesn't seem like the way he operated in the past. He's always been very deliberate, taking time to chow down, and even engaging with the brothers before taking any action. Now that they've apparently dispensed with him, however, I sincerely hope they address it next year and explain how it was possible to kill him, and what the ramifications are. I will not, however, hold my breath.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-05-22 18:08
Hi samanddean10; kind of see your point in that he could be summoned and bound, but then again archangels could be trapped by a ring of fire made of holy oil, and all demons could be trapped in a devils trap. So he had his weaknesses but, since he said he'd end up reaping God (well, not anymore :) ), I always viewed him as the supernatural creature you really didn't want to tangle with.

I really didn't do a good job of explaining my issues with the entire scene with Death. It just felt off to me; I don't know if it was intentional by the writer but something just didn't feel right to me. I didn't have a problem with him being killed; Crowley had mentioned it was rumored that Death could be killed with his own scythe in S5.
debbab
# debbab 2015-05-22 12:26
Dean is not to be likeable in this episode so that we feel what Sam and Cas have been saying about him changing. His mysogeny is disturbing but it is playing off some of the criticism of the show.He has killed all of the Horsemen now but again that was the mark causing the kill. The scene between Sam and Dean is a reminder of the scene in "Swan Song" where Sam/Lucifer wales on Dean and Dean is only saved by the toy soldier and memories of family. Here, Dean wales on Sam. It is only the pictures of family that keep Dean from being totally overtaken by the mark. The fight scene was necessary for the symmetery to season 5 finale. Dean going to a far away place- Sam going to the cage-neither would give up on the other...not really. The only cure for Darkness is the light and who is the light giver in our supernatural world? Death's lock and key gave homage to a previous episode as well. The diner is called Phil's and the hotel is Curtis'- not random choices. It was a nice wrap around to have the beast spell put on Cas- it brought Rowena full circle and Crowley is back to his King status and bargaining with Cas-remember season 6? Remember the scene when Bobby and Dean are in the car and the demons arrive?Carver does well in bringing forth many threads from the past years as a tribute to 10- seasons. There was just so much jammed into an hour. Carver had a tough assignment made tougher by a season that was up and down. The acting was superb by all the players. Jensen had so many faces of Dean/Demon- it was a brilliant interpretation of Carver's words. Padalecki's demonstration of Sam's panic, sincerity, force, love, guilt and understanding - top notch. (Oscar/Oskar sacrified because not taking other roles? Am I pushing it 2 far?) More good than bad- not perfect- An episode that is a lot like the Winchesters.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-05-22 12:32
Dean killed all of the horsemen? Seem to remember demon-blood fueled Sam killing Famine, and War and Pestilence escaping minus their ring fingers. Or am I misremembering something?
E
# E 2015-05-23 07:33
It's the same as Dean alone saving the world.
samandean10
# samandean10 2015-05-22 13:34
Upon a re-watch I actually liked the episode even more. The worst part was the Rowena/Oskar story. It was silly and out of left field. And I'm still not thrilled that Dean could kill Death. Hopefully there will be more explanation about that next year. But I understand why he did it. As soon as Death realized Dean had changed his mind about killing Sam, Death would have done so himself. I now also feel better about the implication that the brothers will let the whole world burn rather than lose each other. After being blindsided with the news about the Darkness and informed that Dean had traded away Sam's life, Sam did fairly quickly express his understanding of the plan. He told Dean that he accepted that before Dean could kill anyone else, he must be stopped AT ANY COST, even Sam's life and Dean's exile. So Sam clearly did believe that he and Dean were not more important than countless innocent lives. And at that point Sam was probably not even thinking about the BOTD. When he last saw Cas he asked him to get what Rowena needed to do the spell. But the required ingredients were so ridiculously hard to obtain, and as far as Rowena's "heart" maybe non-existent, that Sam had no way of knowing that completion of the spell was imminent. So in Sam's mind, it was the case that he and Dean were now about to sacrifice themselves for the greater good. Dean was not even aware that the others were working on the spell, so when he changed his mind about killing Sam, he probably just thought it was a return to the status quo. Maybe he now felt OK about continuing to try to overcome or resist the MOC because Sam had been able to reach him and bring him back from the edge. So the way the story unfolded, neither brother indicated that he believed their lives were worth more than the rest of humanity. In fact, they seemed to feel quite the opposite. I think everything about that scene was brilliant- the writing and the acting. I think it's one of the best brother scenes in the series. I originally thought that Dean should kill Sam, but if a Dean who was still even partly human had done that, it would have trashed everything we've ever seen or learned about Dean. So I've done a 180 on that. And while I've been a huge critic about how the MOC and its effects have been portrayed and explained inconsistently or not at all, in this episode it worked for me. Dean was at the brink of a complete surrender to the MOC, but still had moments in which his humanity reasserted itself. If Sam had continued to fight him, I think in his MOC fueled anger he would have beaten Sam to death. But Sam's surrender and his undying faith in and love for Dean started working on Dean, and then the pictures brought Dean completely back. I've watched that scene 5 times now and I love it more each time. In a fair world, Jared would receive an Emmy nomination for it. Jensen had a less showy role in the scene, but he too was outstanding. And I think the dialogue Carver wrote was stunning. There are only a few scenes in SPN that make me emotional no matter how often I view them and this is destined to be one of them. If only Carver would ensure that all of the writers portrayed Sam so beautifully in character! Wow, so this is what it feels like to gush about an episode during the Carver era! I probably shouldn't get used to it.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-05-22 22:52
Well stated. I agree. Sam and Dean did not simply sell out the world to save themselves. I thought this finale was excellent. I never wanted Dean to kill Sam because it would have destroyed the entire premise of the show and Dean's character. I did like the creative way that Dean was presented with the idea that he had to kill Sam and Sam's acceptance. Jared's performance was first class and I felt the boys pain... all ot it accumulated for 10 seasons. It was one of the best brother scenes in the whole series. I am extremely grateful for the resolution of the MOC. I missed Dean and am very happy, okay ecstatic, to have him back. I think Sam has firmly established himself as an incredibly deeply giving and dedicated caring person and brother. Maybe the premise was that Sam was the bigger monster but Sam emerged as the Saint. I am happy to have the brothers back .... please Carver do not cause contrived opposition. I enjoyed the exposition on the MOC by Death (was not bored) and found the concept fascinating... the darkness before God created Light. I do not think Death is permanently destroyed... this may have just been a lesson. I initially did not find the Rowena/Oskar story credible but on re-watch I found it did flow with the season storyline; Crowley wanting his mother's love, not getting it, her toying with him by being the mother he wanted, and his intense revenge on her by delivering the boy who had the love he had wanted AND the hamster witch did reveal the secret to him... her weakness. Great end to a somewhat bumpy (hated Claire and meandering limp Cas). So looking forward to Sam and Dean in season 11. I think this will be the one more than 10, the push to the edge..... the This is Spinal Tap 11. Congrats to all for the season finale and best wishes for a healthy successful, intriguing, back to Sam and Dean Season 11.
Tealka
# Tealka 2015-05-22 20:22
Thanks so much for the excellent commentary, samandean10. As you seem to, I thought it was an outstanding finale--Carver' s best, in fact. I've read a lot of negative reactions to the episode, but I think people will like it better over time, especially if the writer provides some necessary explanations in 11.1. For instance, if Death were so convinced Sam needed killing, why didn't he do it himself? Why insist on a replay of the First Murder--somethi ng that surely would have strengthened the MOC and pushed Dean into becoming another Cain with no way back? Possibly Death wasn't Death at all. We were told the Mark had a will of its own, so maybe like the Werther lock, it was capable of creating illusions to keep itself intact.
E
# E 2015-05-23 07:48
Quote:
Possibly Death wasn't Death at all. We were told the Mark had a will of its own, so maybe like the Werther lock, it was capable of creating illusions to keep itself intact.
I had thought of this; Death's death (haha) was weird... he just stood there, stone faced, let Dean kill him then just sort of crumbled. I can't imagine that real Death would have been so passive or unsuspicious especially after having to confront Dean and his actions so often. If it turns out that Death was again teaching Sam and Dean a lesson, of it was the mark asserting it's self defense mechanism (which didn't work as it was cured moments later) I hope that it is cleared up in a solid logical manner. IT's hard to tell what exactly happened in that scene; none of it was clear and a bit of explanation is in order IMO.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-05-23 18:45
Seriously. Death didnt know the reach of his own weapon? I mean, come on! This is Death we are talking about, standing directly in back of Dean who is using Deaths scythe. Death, who would be lovingly familiar with the swing radius of this deadly weapon. "Ooops! If only I'd been a few inches to the right...blerg!" I saw Dean as more shocked and surprised that he was actually able to kill Death as well as a few scared out of his pants moments that it may not have worked. I didnt see it as dazed or stunned, as in not realizing that he did it, or that it was the MOC taking over to protect itself in any way. But who knows.

As I said in another thread here somewhere, as long as they follow thru and make the Darkness a force to be reckoned with Season 11, I will be a happy camper. What I dont want to see is Leviathans Part Deux, "The Angels, they're falling" aka "The Angels, they're boring", the Grand Coven which turned out to be neither Grand or Covenly, the sooper-sekrit all powerful Southern-Hospit ality - Unless-They- Are- Cutting-Your-He art-Out -Stynes- of- the- Southern- Sensibilities Clan, who really werent all that and a bag of chips after all, and the Monster Mafia with the Chicago connection. The other thing I dont want to see is The Darkness personified as in a "An attractive man in his 50s in an expensive suit with a red power tie. In addition to donning a cape (every good villian needs a cape), he carries with him an very old oddly engraved walking stick, all while wearing some wicked kicks , 'cause no boring footwear for this guy, who pontificates about world domination, the lesser value of mankind and local politics all while smirking his best villainous smirk." Sound cheesy enough? But thats really kinda what Im expecting. Others? Ive read how its going to be Purgatory- like or Croatoan revisited... yeah, not so much. That big black cloud will probably pass right over the boys and well be back to business as usual. Like when the "Damned gates to Hell" were opened and all the darkness and evil that followed... Right? No? Whatd we get the next episode - The Seven Deadly Sins? Anything else? I dont remember. Personally, I think Carver has either bitten off more than he can chew or The Darkness isnt going to be the ever present threat that its being promoted as. Plus look at all the storylines hanging? Metatron with demon tablet running free, Crowley super sized, Rowena with both the BOTD AND the CODEX? Also Dean still doesnt know the extent of what went on behind his back and now - human sacrifice? I see the brothers together but it seems rather tentative to me. I also wouldnt be surprised if they had Dean take the MOC back voluntarily once more at some point. I dont think the MOC was destroyed, so much as removed from Dean arm. In closing - I want to know how the heck Dean looks so hot not only tearing up a room but also laying there all sweaty with his mouth hanging open, hung over with his face pressed into a dirty motel carpet? Mmmm sweaty, hungover, room wreckin' Dean. And for you Sam girls, how hot was Sam when he was sitting at the desk all determined, making his witch killing rounds all the while arguing with Cas? Mmmm... determined, round making, argumentative Sam. How frickin sexy is it when they make ammo? And breakdown and clean their weapons... Cmon Show! Were easy! We dont need all those fancy sets... Sorry, I digressed. See what happens when I think too much? ;)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-23 19:25
Death didn't seem very surprised by being killed by Dean. I mean come on really? Who knows the Winchesters better than Death? Did he really think they would make any other choice? This had to have been a set up. And Oskar was killed after Death died. A continuity error? Hard to say at this point because we don't know how all of this is going to play out. Oscar's death is really on Cas now. Sam may have set the wheels in motion but Castiel knew what was going to happen when Crowley brought Oskar into the room. Cas never made a move to stop it. And now what a fine mess he is in. Since Dean got all of his friends and his brother into this mess in the first place I don't think he is going to be beating Sam up about the consequences of the "cure". I would be very disappointed if he did. Please no more brother's at odds. It's old and it doesn't work. As far as the Darkness goes this is going to be a very ambitious storyline. As long as they don't turn into corporate executives I'll be a happy fan. It would be great if they were truly some sort of purely evil monster. There are still a lot of threads left hanging (thank god that the MOC doesn't seem to be one of them) and I am really looking forward to see what they come up with.
E
# E 2015-05-23 20:17
Hey Cheryl,
I was wondering why you think that Oskar dying after Death is a continuity error? I saw the two deaths as being unrelated except in that they were both part of a plan to save/stop Dean, but although they were happening roughly at the same time, I didn't see them being connected to one another. Just curious.

I agree about THE DARKNESS!!!!! Unless Carver has a well planned out way of dealing with it, it has FAIL written all over it. Someone on another site said "what are Sam and Dean going to do? Battle THE DARKNESS!!!! and then don Fed suits and go to a crime scene?" And we all know how well this regime plans things out!

And I also agree about Death... he just stood there? He handed over a weapon that he knows can kill him to someone else? Seems pretty dumb for an all powerful being. Now, if this had been Kripke then I would have assumed that something else was going on. But with Carver, there hasn't really been any depth in years, so pretty much everything has been at face value. We spend all this time speculating on what must have REALLY been going on only to find out that what we saw is what we got. Ah! The old days.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-23 20:27
It's just that Oskar died after Dean killed Death. He shouldn't have died. That is why I have my suspicions on that really being Death or that Death is dead. Or it is a continuity error and maybe at SDCC Carver will do some fancy dancing.
E
# E 2015-05-23 21:41
I am still missing something; granted I missed the first 20 minutes of the episode, so maybe something happened during that time. Why should Oskar not have died? Rowena stabbed him with a pen, that would kill anyone. They were putting the spell together to remove the mark and his blood was an ingredient..... Dean killed Death, and then the spell was cast and it worked. I still don't understand? Sorry I am slow or I missed something crucial in the episode.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-23 21:53
I am just assuming that if Death is dead than no one should be able to die. Oskar shouldn't have been able to die.
E
# E 2015-05-23 22:00
OOOOH! I get it now. Actually we saw in Death Takes a Holiday that people could still die, but with Death bound to Lucifer and unable to do his job that the reapers couldn't reap. Cole's soul stayed trapped on earth unable to move on. Well, since the souls are still supposedly trapped in the veil anyway, my guess is that not much has changed on that front. Oskar can go hang out with Kevin.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-24 14:16
Cheryl, this is good and ties into Russ saying it is not the same scythe.
Death, probably is not dead...PROBABLY .
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-05-23 22:02
Thats what I said. Death would be intimately acquainted with the reach of his own weapon. Come to think of it Dean couldve taken both Sam and Death out at the same time if he wanted to or if he were still mostly MOC controlled... I never really realized that Deaths scythe would have two handles like that.

Unfortunately I think Oskars death is on Sam as well. He told Cas "whatever it takes" and if Im not mistaken he was aware of the fact that this is where the cure list was going. I think when Dean finds out "whatever it takes" involved human sacrifice that he is going to have a hard time accepting it. Sam as well probably in retrospect. Like I said, I think they are more on each others side now but not what you would say 100%... I think there will still be issues between them, I also question whether the MOC is completely out of the picture.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-23 22:17
I kind of have a problem with Sam having that much power over the other characters in the show. It kind of implies that the whole show revolves around Sam and his choices and the other characters are there simply to play off Sam. Free will is real, it's what they fought for in the apocalypse. Cas went into this scheme with both eyes open. He knew as much as Sam did about the consequences of going ahead with the spell. As did Charlie. Cas made no move to save an innocent man from being sacrificed. The mission was to save Dean and Cas was willing to pay the price. Dean also has to bear some responsibility for putting everyone into this position in the first place. He took on the MOC without understanding the consequences and ultimately put everyone at risk not just his own soul. So if Dean is pissed at Sam I will be very disappointed. We need to get past the blame game. Bigger fish to fry.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-05-24 01:28
Supernatural without brotherly angst? Never gonna happen. ;) Seriously tho these issues will come up and need to be acknowledged. Cas is going to find out about Deans "solution" and the after effects... Deans going to eventually ask/have to know about Metatron and the Demon tablet or Rowena with the BOTD AND the Codex... Sam and Cas arent going to just be able to gloss over a human being used as a sacrifice for the cure spell or at least for their characters sake, I hope they dont. . Deans going to find out the BOTD was used for the cure and thats why no more arm tat. Im sure he was trying to puzzle that one out in his mind before The Darkness reared its ugly self and then it was all Hell bent for leather to get to the Impala... So a lot on everyones plates in addition to figuring out how to fight The Darkness. I still think we havent seen the last of the MOC either... but like I said, who knows...
samandean10
# samandean10 2015-05-24 09:48
Quote:
I kind of have a problem with Sam having that much power over the other characters in the show. It kind of implies that the whole show revolves around Sam and his choices and the other characters are there simply to play off Sam.


Interesting point Cheryl. What struck me when I read it is that it describes DEAN for much of the show, at least the last 5 seasons. He's always been the one to call the shots for TFW, and even Cas and Bobby almost always went along with it. It kind of bothered me sometimes that Sam usually let Dean make the decisions because in the first few seasons Sam was not that passive. He always spoke up, and when the brothers butted heads about an issue, Sam would even prevail sometimes. So I've actually really been enjoying this forceful, decisive Sam we've been getting the last bunch of episodes. Granted, most of his decisions are probably going to be blasted and Sam vilified for them. So maybe that's why he's been written that way- I guess that was your ultimate point!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-24 10:26
Actually my point is that Sam can't be blamed (or Dean) for the decisions of the other characters. Sam and/or Dean may be the leaders of what ever cause at the moment but the others Cas, Bobby, Charlie or whoever goes into these situations usually with eyes wide open. So the blame game tends to elevate either Sam or Dean into godlike status where the others have no autonomy. In this particular case Sam is being blamed for Oskar's death. My point is that Cas was standing right there when Crowley brought him in the room and he knew what was going to happen. Cas made no move to save an innocent man because the mission was to save Dean no matter what. Same with Charlie. It doesn't matter how much Sam may have begged and pleaded Charlie knew exactly what she was getting into. The mission was to save Dean and she went with it. It just isn't as cut and dried as many would like it to be. And none of the characters would even be in this situation if Dean had asked a few questions before receiving the Mark. But again the blame game can go all the way back to Mary.
samandean10
# samandean10 2015-05-24 11:43
Sorry, I guess my post was unclear. I completely agree with you. But my other thought was that while Dean is never held solely responsible for what is done by others at his direction or suggestion, the opposite is true with regards to Sam. For example, not only did Dean blame Sam for Charlie's death, he even at one point blamed him for dragging Cas into it, as though Cas is one of Sam's minions. I think TPTB treat Sam and Dean very differently in this regard.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-24 12:46
According to Jensen that was the Mark talking. I think that is what we were supposed to see. The Mark had already gone off the rails. I think Sam knew that too that is why the desperation. I don't do the blame game because like I said we can go all the way back to Mary and now I guess God should have seen that the Mark was a bad thing.
E
# E 2015-05-24 22:20
But was that Dean or the Mark talking when Dean was trying to convince Sam to be killed? I mean, it sounded like Dean then, he called Sam 'Sammy' so which Dean actually wants Sam dead... MoC Dean or just regular Dean? It's too hard to follow when it's Dean and when its the Mark. At any rate, I figure Dean will get a total pass for anything he says during this season anyway, just as he always does mark or no mark.
samandean10
# samandean10 2015-05-22 21:25
Quote:
I think people will like it better over time, especially if the writer provides some necessary explanations in 11.1.


That's a good point Tealka. If TPTB do a great job with the Darkness plot next year, the viewers that don't like this out of the blue introduction of that story line might look back more fondly on this episode. I'm also hoping for more honest, calm conversation between the brothers about the dynamic between them. I couldn't believe Dean actually brought up the events in Sacrifice! It really struck me on my second viewing that this is the first REAL conversation between Sam and Dean in a long time. Most of their conversations this year were limited to Dean's changing feelings about whether or not to keep trying to find a cure, and Sam's exhortations to Dean to not give up. That's one reason I really disliked much of this season. So I LOVED their argument about whether or not the Winchesters are evil, and Sam's desperate attempt to convince Dean of his goodness. I'm really hoping next season will see a continuation of this openness between the brothers, rather than the usual blame game. Crossing my fingers!
Gwen
# Gwen 2015-05-23 06:42
Count me in with those who loved the finale. I thought it was fantastic. It had one of the best brotherly moments ever, it's up with the Sacrifice church scene as my absolute favourites of the entire series. I do love me some Sammy tears. Dean's "Sammy, close your eyes" and Sammy's tears, Sam on his knees looking up to his brother waiting to die, willing to sacrifice himself...well, that just about did me in. I cannot stop replaying that scene. "Sammy, close your eyes" and that zig zag tear will probably haunt me for a good long while. I hope Jared feels very proud of his work, he should be, he was amazing. Jensen was wonderful too. The acting was incredible in this episode. Jared and Jensen are class acts.

I was so happy that Sam saved Dean. I loved all the brotherly love. Loved Sam's unwavering faith in Dean's goodness, his unwavering determination to save Dean. I am so happy that the MOC is gone. I can't wait to see old Dean back again, I have missed him so much.

Loved seeing Death again and I was very pleased to have it confirmed that he was actually there ready to reap Sam in 9.01.

I enjoyed the scenes between Crowley and Castiel and I am so happy that Rowena is still alive. For a long while I didn't like her at all but she's become one of the highlights of S10 for me. I am intrigued by the Darkness and looking forward to seeing how this storyline is handled next season. I kind of loved that the last word of the episode was Sam yelling 'Dean!' as the darkness engulfed them.

I enjoyed this finale so much more than last year's finale which I thoroughly disliked and never re-watched. This one I've already re-watched several times. I've been up and down wiith S10 (hated Claire sl, meandering MOC sl) but this finale has me looking forward to S11 and seeing what is going to unfold for Sam and Dean. I'm so glad to have the brothers back, I hope next year we continue to get the brothers together and that there's no more conflict and anger between them.
Tealka
# Tealka 2015-05-23 11:37
Like others, I have a real problem with "Death." Dean summoned Death so Death would kill him. When Death explained why he couldn't and told the story of the Darkness, what he said made sense. But things changed--radica lly--when Death insisted as a condition for helping Dean that he kill his brother. Why? The explanation was ridiculous. Apparently, Sam is so relentless, so all-knowing that were his brother to disappear, Sam would know he wasn't dead and find him--even if Dean had been transported to another planet. And having found him, Sam would somehow manage to get the MOC off Dean--even though Death himself couldn't do it!

Dean must have known that if it was so important to Death that Sam die, Death would have killed the mortal himself--with a single touch. Instead, Death wanted Dean to feed the Mark as Cain had done when he murdered his younger brother. Presumably, the Mark would have been so empowered by a brother's blood, Dean instantly would have become the deadliest demon to ever walk the earth. Would the new Cain have consented then to spend immortality hungering to murder with no one to kill? Unlikely. Death didn't act like a well wisher who wanted to help Dean avoid becoming a killer of innocent people. Death acted like the blood hungry MOC.

Anyway, whoever or whatever he was, Death was a tempter--not unlike Lucifer himself. I suspect that Dean realized that and knew that this being was out to kill Sam. So, after being victimized by the MOC for so long, Dean finally took control. He played along with Death, brought Sam to the bar, and waited for the right moment to swing the scythe at his actual target. Does that seem possible?
E
# E 2015-05-23 13:23
Quote:
Anyway, whoever or whatever he was, Death was a tempter--not unlike Lucifer himself. I suspect that Dean realized that and knew that this being was out to kill Sam. So, after being victimized by the MOC for so long, Dean finally took control. He played along with Death, brought Sam to the bar, and waited for the right moment to swing the scythe at his actual target. Does that seem possible?
I think that's completely possible, I just wish it was more obvious. Dean looked totally surprised when he killed Death rather than Sam... he seemed totally stunned. If they wanted us to understand that Dean had found something within himself to take on Death then they needed to show us that, the same way they did in season 5, when Dean looked like he was going to let Michael take him as a vessel but killed Zachariah instead. He gave Sam (and us) that little wink right before shoving the angel blade through Zachariah's skull to let us know that it had been a trick all along, that Dean had no intention of letting Michael take him. It was brilliant. This time, I have no idea what actually happened. Did Dean feel something for Sam? Did the pictures or Sam's tears mean anything to him? He called Sam 'Sammy' which made me think it was rational, brotherly Dean, and yet he still seemed totally committed to killing Sam in that moment. Was it the Mark asserting it's dominance over him? He wasn't acting Marklike in that moment, the mark didn't glow, Dean didn't do an arm grab, so what made him kill Death instead? He seemed as stunned by that action as either death or Sam. It's unclear which is annoying. It's also concerning that since the Mark was cured literally 30 seconds later that if it was the Mark turing to protect itself no one will ever know. Hopefully what actually ended up happening will be further explained in season 11x1. A confusing end to a completely confusing and unsatisfying arc.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-23 19:36
I took the reason that Sam had to die was that the Winchesters have a track record of figuring out ways to take on, defeat and overcome all enemies and all odds. They are the most resourceful men on the planet or maybe the galaxy. Death probably knew that Sam at some point (since he had already figured out how to remove the Mark) would come up with the solution to saving Dean. They always do (specially when they know the other brother is alive and suffering). Sam had to die or the Darkness would be released at some point if not right then. Although if Sam had died it wouldn't have stopped Rowena from casting the spell. Would it still have worked? If Dean had been on planet Kripton would he still have had the Mark removed? Brain twisters for sure.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-05-23 21:49
Crowley doesnt call them the "Denim wrapped nightmares" for nothing. Maybe Death and Crowley should get together and strategize. Ooops! Too late for Death. ;)
E
# E 2015-05-25 07:02
The whole "Sam has to die" thing is literally the stupidest circular argument the show has ever come up with. So, Sam has to die because "he'll never stop" and will find a way to cure the mark thus releasing THE DARKNESS!!!!. But then Sam AGREES that he must die so that they can NOT release THE DARKNESS!!!!, therefore he would have agreed to NOT releasing THE DARKNESS!!!! and letting Dean go to outer space to save the world. So if Sam was willing to agree with Dean and Deaths plan than what did he need to die for? Its beyond stupid and very contrived.
samandean10
# samandean10 2015-05-23 21:50
Quote:
Sam would somehow manage to get the MOC off Dean--even though Death himself couldn't do it!


Tealka, I think Death said he COULD remove the MOC but he WOULDN'T because he didn't want to release the Darkness. I'm not convinced Death is dead, and I too wonder if there was a reason why he wanted Dean to kill Sam, other than the fact that it made for a bitchin and unbelievably emotional scene. I also think Dean had truly decided that Sam must die, and that he only began to change his mind when Death told him to commit the act himself. In fact, maybe that's WHY Death told Dean to do it. Maybe it really was a test of some sort for Dean? Hmmm, food for thought.
E
# E 2015-05-23 21:56
You know, it occurs to me with Dean's "All we do is create evil in the world speech" that Sam was right all along. In season 8, when he didn't look for Dean he was right. In season 9 when he said they do more harm than good when they stop at nothing to save one another he was right. The only reason he became so obsessive in season 10 is that Dean believed he wouldn't. So basically Sam's been right all along. I wonder if anyone will realize that? I'll bet not.
eilf
# eilf 2015-05-23 22:27
In 9.01 Death said 'It is quite the honor to be collecting the likes of Sam Winchester' which interestingly gives an alternate interpretation of the line (to Dean, when asking him to reap Sam) "Do me the honor'.

That line looks mocking in the context of the episode, sort of an 'I win' but if you consider that Death had just mentioned that he failed to reap Sam before (thus bringing up the memory of that scene in 9.01), he could be said to be LITERALLY giving Dean 'the honor' that Death feels (one assumes it would be the same honor if he was reaping Dean, but Death has never tried that up to this point)

I know this is a sort of convoluted point, but it could be seen to imply that Death actually still has respect for the Winchesters. I am with everyone who thinks that absolutely no-one died/will die/will stay dead from the last part of the finale. I think Death did not underestimate the DCNM (TM) and his destruction was a trick.
samandean10
# samandean10 2015-05-23 22:43
I LOVE that interpretation, so as far as I'm concerned it just became canon--Death has a profound respect for Sam. BOOM!

On a more trivial note, what does this mean: DCNM (TM)?
eilf
# eilf 2015-05-23 22:48
I am so glad you asked (and I am glad you like my theory) ....

:) I am removing the rest of my comment for the reasons Alycat outlined below, I don't want to steal her jokes ;)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-05-24 01:42
Ok you Trademark DCNM and I will Trademark DWNM™ (DENIM WRAPPED NIGHTMARES) as I stated in my earlier post. Of course since yours is entirely made up and mine is a direct rip off from the show, I doubt you will be fighting any of the legal battles I am sure to be facing... like I will... shortly... Im sure. I think I see them coming up the walk. Ooh, they look so official like, what with the briefcases and all... Send money for bail, yall!!!
samandean10
# samandean10 2015-05-24 09:58
AlyCat, as a former lawyer (although I haven't practiced law in many years and I don't know jack about copyright or trademark law) I will defend you pro bono from the men in suits, aka the Levis. On a more pressing note, how did you get that itty bitty TM next to the DWNM? I think I've barely scratched the surface of my laptop's possibilities and it's getting embarrassing. I tried to copy paste a gif before and it was an epic fail.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-24 10:04
Good, I need a computer tutorial :D:D:D:D
samandean10
# samandean10 2015-05-26 20:41
I don't know if you saw it NOLA, but I included my first gifs in one of my comments. My daughter very patiently showed me how (actually she did all the work, but I'm taking the credit!) Now if only I can remember what she taught me.
eilf
# eilf 2015-05-24 10:59
Oh no! I apologise Alycat! I was just knackered tired last night while I was typing. I am not aware now of having seen your post but it would make sense that I did and it stuck with me as being funny! Then when I was asked it seemed like I had come up with it. No rip-off intended!
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-05-24 23:08
Oh my gosh I was just kidding guys! Not about the bail tho cause, well, you know. Still like Dean says 3 hots and a cot! Funny you should inquire about my extensive Knowledge 'O Laptop as I am currently giving a tutorial to my bunk mate. Whether I want to or not... *gulp* Its a very complicated procedure (or at least she seems to find it so) in that it involves switching from my standard keyboard using the far bottom left symbol key (?123) which then displays the numeric/standar d symbols. Then I have to carefully and painstakingly press the Shift key which then brings up the more complex presentation of upside down exclamation marks, copyright an registration symbols as well as some strange lettering, brackets and greater/lesser division signs. Its taken me quite some time to master the intricacies.... Actually its just my Kindle and it is easy although sometimes getting it to show the correct display Im after does seem like years. ;) Thank you for offering to represent me pro bono tho I think if you could just somehow manage to get me some Borax on the sly I will be good to go. That is if I don't t run into The Darkness after I have made my escape! ;)
E
# E 2015-05-25 07:04
YAAAS eilf! No one else on this show is ever going to compliment Sam on anything he does, so I guess WE have to !!
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-05-23 22:17
Did you guys notice the cross formed by the windows in the hotel room door? over Deans right shoulder when he was washing his hands repeatedly? Little foreshadowing maybe? Hmmm...
Songbird21
# Songbird21 2015-05-24 03:11
Okay, yes, the darkness being released sucks major ass but both boys are alive and aren't afflicted by something (Demon blood, being a demon, MoC, etc). All this gives me hope that if, God willing, Dean doesn't spend a huge chunk of the season blaming Sam for everything like a jackass (Sam didn't "bully" Charlie into a damned thing. She was an adult woman and she made up her own mind. I will miss her dearly though) we might be able to get back to the "Sam and Dean against the world" dynamic that made the show so kickass to begin with.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-24 08:02
Where have you been all my life :)
Songbird21
# Songbird21 2015-05-24 16:20
Lol. Thank you :)
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-26 10:00
Wednesday, waiting for your bio on the writers page. :)
Tealka
# Tealka 2015-05-26 10:41
In my opinion, the MOC was a brilliant concept that was horribly mishandled--lar gely because Carver doesn't know how to build a suspenseful plot. Instead, he depends almost entirely on the brothers' relationship to maintain audience interest. As a result, the plot falls flat, and the characterizatio n is as false as it is contrived. For instance, for Dean to object to the search for a cure was ridiculous. This is supposed to be a smart, self-sacrificin g hunter who's struggled most of his life to protect the innocent. Yet, making little effort to find a way of destroying the MOC, he fed it by merrily going off on hunts, all the while walking among the innocent like a man with a ticking time bomb strapped to his chest. And Sam? Carver had him lying and sneaking around like a twelve year hiding his smoking habit from his dad. Why all the secrecy? Because it's a heck of a lot easier to create tension between the leading characters than it is to build suspense through a complex plot. The brothers should have spent most of the season searching for a cure together. Instead, the legendary Sam and Dean Winchester--the only men in the history of the world who'd been to hell and purgatory and back, destroyed the Leviathan, stopped the Apocalypse, defeated evil angels, and imprisoned Lucifer himself--ignore d the monster in the room, whiling away the time hunting minor monsters like a couple of rank amateurs.

In short, Carver isn't a good writer--not anymore. He's a very bad one and an even worse show runner.
Songbird21
# Songbird21 2015-05-26 15:00
I have to agree. I swear sometimes I wish they would just suck it up and find one of the best fanfic writers (Who stays true to cannon) and have THEM write the show. The producers would give them direction of course, but it's been shown time and time again that half the time the fans know the show better than the people who write it.
E
# E 2015-05-26 18:38
I agree entirely. You've hit on the two things that made me scratch my head all season long, (well two of the main things, there were many other things that left me totally confused). Why Dean was opposed to looking for a cure; it basically made zero sense and rang totally false. It also made him look like a quitter and a dictator. And Sam's lying and sneaking around; it was beyond annoying. Just say "I'm looking. You don't like it? Tough!" He's an adult and he doesn't need Dean's permission to do what he thinks is right. He went ahead and did it anyway, so he might as well have been up front about it. This is so different than how they handled the same scenario in season 3. At least then Dean had a REAL reason to not want Sam to look and he argued with Sam over it pretty much all season long. And Sam, he just decided to look. No real sneaking around, and he openly argued with Dean's stance again and again. It was very tense and very satisfying. This time? Not so much, as in not at all. Not for me anyway.
samandean10
# samandean10 2015-05-26 19:43
What's particularly frustrating about the two things you mentioned is that it completely undermines the so-called "maturity" arc Carver promised us 2 years ago, in which the brothers are supposed to relate to each other like adults in their 30s. I would love to ask Carver if that's another plot line they dropped, or does he think they actually portrayed it on screen? If so, when?
lala2
# lala2 2015-05-26 20:39
It's funny how Carver talked about maturity, but Sam showed more maturity in S3 when he was seven years younger than in S10 when he is older. At this point, with everything the boys have been through, Sam should be tired of lies and secrecy. In this case, there was never a need for Sam to lie about his research. Who cares if Dean didn't want him to research? Do it anyway. Dean is not a dictator. He cannot tell Sam what to do. Sam acted as if he was afraid to tell Dean what he was doing, which was a great departure from the Sam of old. It was annoying, esp. b/c the deception and secrecy made no sense.

But as with every single season since Carver arrived, the boys had to be in some type of conflict. I'm not sure why Carver believes this is necessary every single year, but he continues to do it. It's beyond annoying.
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-05-27 02:24
The maturity idea was as wayward as the song . There was no real reason for Sam to hide anything from Dean last season who was in no real position to ask Sam to do anything it was just silly really.
lala2
# lala2 2015-05-26 20:02
If I could "like" this a million times, I would! You have spoken nothing but the truth, IMO.
E
# E 2015-05-27 05:39
Here's another question: Supposedly Rowena saved dying young Oskar by granting him immortality for his kindness to her 300 years ago when she was run out of her homeland. He looked about 12 in the picture. So why did he continue to grow into an adult and THEN become immortal? Why wasn't he the same kid we saw in the picture?

Wow, it was really just super, duper convenient that there just happened to be a 300 year old immortal guy out there that Rowena actually happened to love who was the PERFECT ingredient for this spell that they were cooking up, wasn't it? And LOOKIE, he lives so close by too! It's just.... wow! Boy howdy, they sure got lucky there didn't they?
samandean10
# samandean10 2015-05-27 08:08
Crowley actually did say in his exposition about this that Rowena cast one spell to cure Oskar and another spell that would prevent him from ever aging once he reached manhood. But that is some specific spell! I agree that the whole Oskar thing was ridiculously convenient, which is why it was by far the weakest part of the episode for me. If Rowena loved him so much, why not look him up at least once in the preceding three centuries? Wouldn't that be part of her motivation for granting him immortality? If Crowley could find him so easily, Rowena certainly should have been able to. Nothing about the Oskar story worked for me.
eilf
# eilf 2015-05-27 11:33
So if we assume that Oskar is now dead does this mean that in the SPN universe 'immortal' means 'alive until you die'? You know.... like everyone is ....

Congrats everyone! SPN says you are immortal.

Or Oskar ISN'T dead and the spell will get derailed ...
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-27 12:02
I guess you are immortal until the witch that made that way kills you to cast a spell?
samandean10
# samandean10 2015-05-27 13:04
Well in defense of Carver (holy shit, did I just say that?!!!) often the word "immortal" is used loosely to refer to those who will never die of natural causes, like the elves in Lord Of The Rings, or even the angels in SPN. However they can be killed in battle. According to Death, nobody is immortal in the strict sense of the word since even God will be reaped someday. So ima gonna cut Carver some slack just on this one teensy point. Ain't that magnanimous of me?
eilf
# eilf 2015-05-27 13:21
Ok, I grant that both of those are good reasons. :D Pity, it could be an even faster resolution to the cliffhanger than my other theory ....
E
# E 2015-05-27 14:55
So one spell cures him and the other.... oh for the love of pete. It's just too absurd. And he got from Poland to Kansas HOW? WHEN? WHY? And he's immortal and working in a BAR? Why isn't he more successful if he's had 300 years to get ahead in the world? Worst. Plotting. Ever.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-27 15:02
Since Rowena cast the spell to make him immortal why can't she break it to cast another spell? Hey Duncan McLeod got from Scotland to New York (?) in however many hundreds of years and he lived on a boat. I guess low profile. Who knows maybe Oskar made and lost fortunes in his lifetime. I guess since he wasn't all that important in the story we didn't get a whole lot of backstory on him.
E
# E 2015-05-27 16:17
From Scotland to NY I could see... but Kansas? Have you been to Kansas? I have. You know what's there? Corn. Not much of a draw for an immortal Polish boy who could have done anything and everything that he wanted over the course of maybe 5 lifetimes. And Duncan McLeod used his many many years on this earth to make a successful business for himself; antiques which is pretty apropos considering he'd been around for centuries.

Actually I'm quibbling. The whole Oskar issue is just a symptom of the larger problem which is spontaneous plot points with little to no planning or logic suddenly being dumped on us without warning. I have similar problems with TD!! As I've said before; When is a 'plot twist' not a plot twist? When it's just plain bad writing. The Oskar thing and TD!! came out of the blue with no set up and now they are trying to retcon them in with boat loads of painful exposition. It doesn't help that you can drive truck through the plot holes.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-27 17:27
Yes I have been to Kansas it is really beautiful and the people that live there are really nice. I isn't Lawrence in Kansas? The home of the Winchesters? Maybe it's a magical state. At any rate Oskar was an ingredient to a spell. I don't think he was supposed to be thought of as much more than that. And the fact that Cas just stood there and let an innocent man be sacrificed. Other than that he was pretty much as important as Lester. As far as the Darkness I don't know if that was a plot twist as much as a foretelling come true. Sam was warned that if he pursued his course of action something horrible was going to happen. The Darkness was the price he paid for removing the Mark. I don't know how that is bad writing. We knew that something awful was going to happen. I'm just glad that one brother didn't kill the other and that right now anyway they are on the same page and a level playing field.
samandean10
# samandean10 2015-05-27 15:44
Quote:
Why isn't he more successful if he's had 300 years to get ahead in the world?


I don't know why E but it cracks me up that you're troubled by Oskar's lack of success. But it is kind of funny that all he has to show for 300 years is a job as a short order cook. It makes me wonder what other jobs/profession s Carver considered for Oskar that he would pick something like that. Rodeo clown? Nuclear physicist? Dolphin trainer at Sea World? Hedge fund manager? I kind of wish I could ask Carver why he went with cook.
E
# E 2015-05-27 16:08
Hell after 300 years on earth he could have been President. I'd have liked to see Crowley/Cas get him to Kansas then. So long spell!!
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-28 01:59
He could be rich and Chooses to be a cook to meet and see the world.
In fact he said as much.
E
# E 2015-05-27 16:05
Quote:
Crowley actually did say in his exposition......
You know, there sure was an awful lot of exposition going on the try and explain things that were not naturally arising from the narrative itself. Between Death blathering on and Crowley I lost track of what was going on. Oops.