The theme is simple enough, “captives.”  There are plenty of those in “Supernatural.”   The angels are captives on earth.  Kevin is a captive in the veil.  Mrs. Tran is a captive of Crowley.  Castiel is a captive of Bartholomew and his treachery.  Sam and Dean are captives of a fractured relationship, as well as their own personal issues. 

Captives are fighters and survivors.  Their captivity, despite the individual ordeal, often happens for a greater purpose.  Those that die aren’t supposed to die in vain.  Those that live are to carry on by example.  They overcome, they persevere.   That theme, woven throughout the stories in this episode,  set up some amazing possibilities of hope and redemption for all our characters this week.  It’s pretty damned refreshing given the darkness that’s been surrounding them. 

First off, welcome back Kevin Tran!  I’m glad Sam and Dean easily figured out that if the bunker was haunted, it could only be one person - the one person to die in the bunker recently.  Bobby was able to come back as a ghost, why not Kevin?  I’m glad they didn’t string that mystery along.  Also it makes sense. 

Kevin, like all the other souls, are trapped.  The ghosts in the veil though have the good fortune of having an advanced placement student in their midst as well as a prophet.  He’s using his position to save his Mom.  Nothing else matters.  Even in the veil though Kevin has his snarkiness; ranting about having to endure Dean’s “self pity” speeches while trying to break through.  “I didn’t hear enough of those when I was alive.”  Hee, poor Dean.  That was a tear jerking speech too! 

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Before I go any further into character analysis, I’d like to first fathom the metaphysical ramifications of what we discovered in “Captives.”  I’m still trying to wrap my head around this idea that because Heaven is closed for business, all business.  Angels have fallen to earth, newly departed souls can’t get into Heaven, so it’s just Metatron and all the other souls up there?  Wow, that is a major imbalance of the natural order. 

Think about it.  Imagine Sam in the season premiere going with Death (or whoever it was) to the great beyond.  He would have been stuffed into the veil!  Death (or whoever) wouldn’t really be able to deliver on that promise of never coming back, would he?  Of course if it was Death, he’s pretty powerful, so maybe he would have been able to get Sam into Heaven.   But suddenly, the idea of saving Sam from death no matter what the cost doesn’t seem so bad. 

Worse, imagine what happens when all those souls become angry spirits.  That can’t bode well on the living, let alone the souls in limbo.  What sort of chaos could that possibly cause long term?  Also imagine what would have happened if Sam had closed the gates of Hell last season.  Then basically all souls would be trapped on earth.  No Hell below us, above us only sky.  Now I see what Metatron was saying back in “The Great Escapist” with “pulling one of the great levers.”   Sure, I’d imagine that a lot of souls don’t deserve to go to Hell, but should Sam and Dean be making those decisions?  Playing God so to speak?  This is just another chapter in the question driving this entire series, “What if God left the building?”  The universe is screwed, that’s what.  

But the unlikeliest heroes emerge in these situations too, and we got to see some of that in “Captives”.  I’ve always been fascinated with the way “Supernatural” toys with metaphysics, and “Captives” blew my mind by just adding another big leap in that dimension.  It’s pretty rad. 

“You may have lost the war, but you tried a new way.  I respect that.”  

Castiel again manages to find trouble in his quest, and the results are quite unexpected.   This time, it’s a good unexpected.  Bartholomew captures Castiel, but it turns out he’s an old subordinate of Castiel.  He’s a bit of a fan too.  If it wasn’t for Castiel’s treachery, he wouldn’t have decided to rise up and become a leader; one that will take the angels back to Heaven - And elsewhere.  Uh oh, another wayward power hungry angel.  Once again, we learn Heaven is without a mastermind.  Bartholomew is just another angel that emerges with lofty goals after being oppressed for so long.  An angel with ambition doesn’t seem to get very far in this show.    

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Bartholomew was right about one thing.  All these angels, all these factions, they all have one goal - To open up the gates of Heaven.  It’s the core methodology that’s different.  The penitents accept that they have strayed from their original mission and have to live among humans peacefully (pacifists).  Bartholomew believes that there should be collateral damage and bloodshed in order to achieve the goal (The staunch conservative).  Malachi ‘s group just wants to go home and will do whatever they can to get there (moderates). 

The angels have needed in their entire existence someone to pull them together- to give them orders, to guide them, to remind them of their purpose.  For years that was Michael, but his mission strayed toward his own perceived destiny.    Naomi was a pencil pusher who found balance in her bureaucratic ways.  Metatron is an evil tyrant who had his plan for revenge.  Bartholomew  thinks “a drop of blood to save a gallon,” but he doesn’t mind that it’s human blood.  His disregard for the human vessels proves that. 

What did all of these angels that have risen to power have in common?  They all have a total disregard for humanity.  They’ve forgotten God’s mission for them.  They’ve lost their faith and their way.  Only one angel vying for leadership has had humanity and the original purpose of protecting humans in mind.  Our trench coated one. 

Castiel’s struggle, and the one that’s always plagued him, is that doing the right thing just isn’t enough.  He keeps coming back from the dead, something he called once a “resurrection curse.”  It’s always been my belief that Castiel was chosen for something bigger and keeps being brought back because his mission isn’t finished.  However, he’s had a very, very hard time figuring out that mission.  His path is riddled with mistakes, but one thing he’s always managed to keep more or less is his faith.  Faith in his father,  faith in humanity.   That’s what sets him apart from the other angels.  

It goes back to the discussion of Bartholomew killing the captives.  Bartholomew killed them after superiors pulled Castiel from the battlefield, following their orders instead.  They knew Castiel wouldn’t be able to do it.  Even Naomi called Castiel a spanner in the works, someone who always went against the norm.  As long as Castiel keeps acting like the lone “rebel”, he’s going to continue to have a lot misery happen around him.  Leading others, getting all angels to see the error of their ways and remember their purpose is what he has to do.  Rebecca tried, but she was just one angel.  Castiel is a legend.  He expelled Raphael, fought Naomi, and now he’s killed Bartholomew (despite the fact he didn’t want to).   Yeah, he was tricked by Metatron too, but what better motivation to rally the troops?  There is no one else that can save the angels from themselves. 

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I really smiled when those three angels in the graveyard pledged their allegiance to Castiel.  It’s not full redemption for all he’s done, but it’s a start.  Our angel is growing up, and with his human cohorts, and who knows, maybe a little help from the King of Hell, they all together will restore order in their worlds.  No, it’s not going to happen overnight.  It’s going to take a lot of harder battles, but having a small following is a start. 

“It was my fault, and there’s nothing I can do to make that right.” 

If Castiel is forging a path, then Sam and Dean need to find theirs.  In their case, it’s a simple “together we stand, united we fall.”  They aren’t united and they’re falling.  Kevin, in ghost form, acted in this episode like the wise prophet.  He’s spent time in the veil, he can see the bigger picture.  He isn’t angry over what happened to him.  He’s forgiven Sam and Dean because there are higher priorities.  Save his Mom.  That’s how they make things right.  Even if death, he watches over her and she watches over him.  It’s a nice parallel to Sam and Dean, who have spent a lifetime watching over one another.  They need to get there again.  That’s the message Kevin tried to deliver at the end, the crap isn’t worth it.  That’s the message unfortunately that still has to sink in.

This situation with Sam is starting to have a very hard effect on Dean.  He’s drowning in guilt and self loathing, and there’s no one to help pull him out of this rut.  Sam was always there before.  Remember “Point of No Return?”  Dean’s speech to Kevin reflected how bad he is.  He was so devastated in grief that he didn’t notice Kevin trying to break through the veil.  He’s bearing a huge burden on his own and this new arrangement with Sam is killing him. 

Sam is so in “business mode” he wouldn’t stick around to chat when it was Dean’s turn on “coffee pot” watch (I thought that was funny by the way).   Dean’s frustrations were perfectly clear in the Impala when Sam challenged Dean’s belief that what they were told by Candy didn’t fit Crowley’s behavior.  “I’m just talking it out, working the case, business like,” Dean says exasperated.   But what worried me the most was the very end.  The look on his face when he went back to his room, putting on his headphones after Sam walked away was troubling.  He wasn’t upset or dismayed.  He was pissed off.  He’s nearing a breaking point.  Given his self loathing and the fact he’s carrying the Mark of Cain, what could this all mean for Dean?  Will he end up spiraling downward even more?  What is all this driving him toward?  It has me very, very worried. 

We know Sam is in a world of hurt too.  He’s chosen silence this week, because any other words will likely make the situation worse and lead to harder feelings.  He wants to say something, but he’s holding back.  His concern for Dean is obvious.   The beginning scene proves that, when Sam jumped out of his room after Dean called his name.  He was definitely worried when he couldn’t find Dean and saw the signs of a ghost.  He saved his brother from the demon too.  So why did Sam promise Kevin that he would “get over it” and then walked away from Dean? 

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I don’t think Sam lied.  He just can’t get over it right now.  It’s not the time.  He’s afraid that whatever he tells Dean, the wrong thing will come out.  That what he says will be misunderstood.  He still can’t trust Dean either, and that’s adding to his apprehension.  He did hesitate before going into his room.  He did want to talk and say something.  Eventually he will.  But what he doesn’t realize is that pushing away his brother is actually doing Dean more harm than good.  It’s understandable, Sam is lost in his own issues right now and he can’t see five inches in front of his own face.  But he’s softening.  Time is healing the wounds.  The question is when he’s ready, will Dean be?   It seems that Dean was more than willing to talk and Sam’s brush off could change all that.  Dean might not be so open next time. 

So yes, it ends with brotherly drama.  All is not well in the SPN universe.  It is only episode 14 though and that conflict needs to drag out longer.  I think both Sam and Dean emotionally are correct given the gravity of their situations.  But it’s torture for the fan that wants them to ride together in the Impala, talking and acting like brothers, smiling a bit more, having more fun and appreciating life.  Well, Sam and Dean both want that too and I’m hoping neither have given up on that idea of getting back to that point someday.  But after what happened, recovery is not easy and it shouldn’t be. 

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Random Notes

I’m hoping very much that won’t be the last we’ll see of Kevin and Mrs. Tran and who knows, maybe some sort of heavenly loophole can help our prophet find his way back to earth and among the living.  He was wronged and earth needs a prophet.   Castiel seems like the perfect kind of angel to right that wrong, don’t you think?  Mrs. Tran kicked ass and was inspirational in her devotion to Kevin, even when Sam tenderly let her know in his own way that Kevin was dead (it does make sense that Sam chose to be honest in that situation given his latest issues with deception).   I’m very glad the show chose to address her plight sooner than years later.  It gives us as fans a little closure should they not go back to the Tran story, but they better!  I think having a prophet ghost communicating with those in the veil will come in handy.  Plus I want to see Kevin insult Sam and Dean more. 

Director Jerry Wanek did an incredible job this week.  The sweeping camera movements in the beginning, showing the layout of the bunker in full detail and at different angles was just awesome.  It makes sense, since he designed the set!  Mr. Wanek, my son is trying to build a lego model of the bunker, and this episode will definitely be used for plenty of reference.  Thank you.   It wasn’t just the bunker though.  There was also little gems like the shot of the angel keeping guard between Castiel and Bartholomew in the office.  The reflection of him on the glossy table was a stunning visual.   It seemed to add a nice touch to the bland, square room.  The action sequences were pretty wicked too, especially the fight in the storage locker between Sam and the demon clerk. 

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I noticed the score was a lot more moving this week too.  I’m always a sucker when Chris Lennertz or Jay Gruska bring out the violins though, and it all came during the right times to add perfect touches to an already emotional scene.  Usually funeral scenes of strangers do nothing for me in TV shows, but the score reminded us that we were supposed to care about this person and her plight, even if we didn’t know her.  Castiel did, and it made his sadness more believable.  

On the fashion side of things, anyone notice that short coats are in this year?  Castiel’s trench coat has gotten shorter, and now both Sam and Dean were wearing short wool jackets.  It’s kind of a weird look, but I guess for fighting bad guys, it’s probably better for them. 

I haven’t assigned a grade to an episode in a long time, but I’m giving “Captives” an A-.  I’m really enjoying writer Robert Berens as an addition to the team.  He wrote a fluid, well paced, intricate script and I’m thrilled to be given some material like this to analyze.  Now, bring on the Ghostfacers!  I love those guys. 

 
 

Comments

percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-26 21:52
Quote:
Think about it. Imagine Sam in the season premiere going with Death (or whoever it was) to the great beyond. He would have been stuffed into the veil! Death (or whoever) wouldn’t really be able to deliver on that promise of never coming back, would he? Of course if it was Death, he’s pretty powerful, so maybe he would have been able to get Sam into Heaven. But suddenly, the idea of saving Sam from death no matter what the cost doesn’t seem so bad.
I suspect I'll be saying this in many reviews. When Charlie died in Slumber Party, she described going to Heaven, not waiting in the veil. She was in one of her happiest memories, a Christmas with her Mom and Dad. Dorothy told her that was heaven and that you weren't a hunter until you died at least once. So I think the closing of the boarders of heaven did not start when Metatron threw the angels out. Metatron told Cas that when Cas died he would return to heaven with many new stories to tell Metatron. Basically, I think that if Sam had died in 9.01 he would have gotten into heaven, since all indications were that it was still open. I don't know what changed and when it changed, but sometime after Slumber Party.

I suspect I'll be repeating this in many reviews, BUT in Slumber Party Charlie died. She described being in one of her happiest memories, a Christmas with her Mom and Dad.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-26 21:52
Quote:
Think about it. Imagine Sam in the season premiere going with Death (or whoever it was) to the great beyond. He would have been stuffed into the veil! Death (or whoever) wouldn’t really be able to deliver on that promise of never coming back, would he? Of course if it was Death, he’s pretty powerful, so maybe he would have been able to get Sam into Heaven. But suddenly, the idea of saving Sam from death no matter what the cost doesn’t seem so bad.
I suspect I'll be saying this in many reviews. When Charlie died in Slumber Party, she described going to Heaven, not waiting in the veil. She was in one of her happiest memories, a Christmas with her Mom and Dad. Dorothy told her that was heaven and that you weren't a hunter until you died at least once. So I think the closing of the boarders of heaven did not start when Metatron threw the angels out. Metatron told Cas that when Cas died he would return to heaven with many new stories to tell Metatron. Basically, I think that if Sam had died in 9.01 he would have gotten into heaven, since all indications were that it was still open. I don't know what changed and when it changed, but sometime after Slumber Party.

I suspect I'll be repeating this in many reviews, BUT in Slumber Party Charlie died. She described being in one of her happiest memories, a Christmas with her Mom and Dad.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-26 22:41
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JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-26 22:41
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love2boys
# love2boys 2014-02-26 22:43
I loved this review! I'm with you, Alice, on the whole going-to-heaven thing, too.

I know Charlie died, but at the time I thought she got to heaven awfully fast. Bobby kind of spiraled. In DSotM, Dean kind of "came to" in heaven. More slowly. Maybe Charlie had some extra synapse-firings and just had a memory flash, and Dorothy was mistaken about what Charlie described.

My thoughts aren't very well thought out. And I understand exactly what Percysowner meant. I just like to think of it this way better...
love2boys
# love2boys 2014-02-26 22:43
I loved this review! I'm with you, Alice, on the whole going-to-heaven thing, too.

I know Charlie died, but at the time I thought she got to heaven awfully fast. Bobby kind of spiraled. In DSotM, Dean kind of "came to" in heaven. More slowly. Maybe Charlie had some extra synapse-firings and just had a memory flash, and Dorothy was mistaken about what Charlie described.

My thoughts aren't very well thought out. And I understand exactly what Percysowner meant. I just like to think of it this way better...
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-26 22:44
Thanks Alice, always enjoy a review by you. I agree this was a good episode. I think the brother tension was nicely underplayed with those small details that add more to a scene, such as Sam hesitating for a second before going into his room. Just a second but it said volumes. Dean is floundering badly. I am not one of those that get any enjoyment in his pain or view what he did as vile. But that doesn't mean Sam shouldn't hold his course. Dean will get there I am sure. I think they will come to an understanding that both brothers can live with eventually. One that doesn't involve Sam apologizing or Dean having to completely change his protective nature. I know for a fact that these two will ALWAYS be there for each other. Will always save each other. Would die for each other. But the consequences of preventing a death by ANY means necessary will need to be re-evaluated. They must trust each other as equals in this as they have always trusted each other as hunters.

I am glad Cas finally made the right choice in not aligning himself with Bartholomew. I was kinda nervous he would fall for his pitch.

Still confused over the 3 (3?) people in the storage units. Why were they being held again? What was their value to Crowley? And what happened to who was behind door #3?

Someone said on another thread they would watch the spinoff of Mrs. Tran and her ghost son. That made me smile!
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-26 22:44
Thanks Alice, always enjoy a review by you. I agree this was a good episode. I think the brother tension was nicely underplayed with those small details that add more to a scene, such as Sam hesitating for a second before going into his room. Just a second but it said volumes. Dean is floundering badly. I am not one of those that get any enjoyment in his pain or view what he did as vile. But that doesn't mean Sam shouldn't hold his course. Dean will get there I am sure. I think they will come to an understanding that both brothers can live with eventually. One that doesn't involve Sam apologizing or Dean having to completely change his protective nature. I know for a fact that these two will ALWAYS be there for each other. Will always save each other. Would die for each other. But the consequences of preventing a death by ANY means necessary will need to be re-evaluated. They must trust each other as equals in this as they have always trusted each other as hunters.

I am glad Cas finally made the right choice in not aligning himself with Bartholomew. I was kinda nervous he would fall for his pitch.

Still confused over the 3 (3?) people in the storage units. Why were they being held again? What was their value to Crowley? And what happened to who was behind door #3?

Someone said on another thread they would watch the spinoff of Mrs. Tran and her ghost son. That made me smile!
BookLady
# BookLady 2014-02-26 22:51
In reply to percysowner - Perhaps Heaven truly closed when Metatron flipped the switch to keep from activating another Prophet - after he contacted Gadreel and gave him his assignment? Sounds like a major messing with the natural order. And, he becomes the sole door keeper into Heaven. We all know what a control freak Metatron is. Evil bastard!

To add to random thoughts - Misha was fantastic as Cas. He showed lots of sadness, regret and yet also was badass Cas which we haven't seen in a little while. Even the show writer commented on it. Maybe because he wasn't on set with the Js? All his scenes were separate from theirs. Must have been a nice break for him. And for Osric. Did you notice when he had his major scene with Mama Tran that the Js left? What a relief! You just know that however glad Jared and Jensen were to have Osric back that they still messed with him. Wanek is no fool. Get the Js off set and those emotional scenes are easier to get.

I, too, enjoyed this episode. I have faith the brothers will work through their issues. Jared keeps saying something big will start that ball rolling. Loved having warm farewells for the Trans and Cas being pushed to be the leader that he is meant to be. A spanner in the works is usually great leader because they think differently from everyone else. I'm wondering if Crowley and Cas's brushes with humanity is priming them to become the leaders they were meant to be in their respective spheres. They are both different thinkers as a result of their experiences. Heaven and Hell have their purposes and closing them is proving to be a less than an ideal solution. Hmmm. Can't wait to see where the season is leading!

Thanks, Alice!
BookLady
# BookLady 2014-02-26 22:51
In reply to percysowner - Perhaps Heaven truly closed when Metatron flipped the switch to keep from activating another Prophet - after he contacted Gadreel and gave him his assignment? Sounds like a major messing with the natural order. And, he becomes the sole door keeper into Heaven. We all know what a control freak Metatron is. Evil bastard!

To add to random thoughts - Misha was fantastic as Cas. He showed lots of sadness, regret and yet also was badass Cas which we haven't seen in a little while. Even the show writer commented on it. Maybe because he wasn't on set with the Js? All his scenes were separate from theirs. Must have been a nice break for him. And for Osric. Did you notice when he had his major scene with Mama Tran that the Js left? What a relief! You just know that however glad Jared and Jensen were to have Osric back that they still messed with him. Wanek is no fool. Get the Js off set and those emotional scenes are easier to get.

I, too, enjoyed this episode. I have faith the brothers will work through their issues. Jared keeps saying something big will start that ball rolling. Loved having warm farewells for the Trans and Cas being pushed to be the leader that he is meant to be. A spanner in the works is usually great leader because they think differently from everyone else. I'm wondering if Crowley and Cas's brushes with humanity is priming them to become the leaders they were meant to be in their respective spheres. They are both different thinkers as a result of their experiences. Heaven and Hell have their purposes and closing them is proving to be a less than an ideal solution. Hmmm. Can't wait to see where the season is leading!

Thanks, Alice!
Grace232
# Grace232 2014-02-26 22:52
Hey Percysowner. I am open to that possibility that a Charlie went to Heaven. I am also open to the possibility that when Charlie was dying, endorphins were released making her feel good and dream about a happy memory. She then died but before realizing she was in the veil, Gadreel brought her back. After I had surgery, I had that experience - re-living a nice memory. No heaven for me - the anesthesia wore off and I woke up.

Nice review, Alice. I liked the episode too. Liked having badass Cas back. Like everyone else, ready for the brothers to follow Kevin's advice.
Grace232
# Grace232 2014-02-26 22:52
Hey Percysowner. I am open to that possibility that a Charlie went to Heaven. I am also open to the possibility that when Charlie was dying, endorphins were released making her feel good and dream about a happy memory. She then died but before realizing she was in the veil, Gadreel brought her back. After I had surgery, I had that experience - re-living a nice memory. No heaven for me - the anesthesia wore off and I woke up.

Nice review, Alice. I liked the episode too. Liked having badass Cas back. Like everyone else, ready for the brothers to follow Kevin's advice.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-26 23:16
Well, I'm not an happy camper.

I don't know how Sam can "get over it" and forgive Dean when Dean is not even seeking forgiveness. I really don't.

I understand where Dean is coming from and why he did what he did. I know he's hurting. I'm trying really hard to sympathise with him, but there's SO MUCH angst without self-reflection , and it's borthering on self-pity at this point. He's also unrepentant, digging his heels in and acting like he was the one wronged. That last shot with his headphones on reminded me of when my teenager was pouting in his room because he didn't get his way.

I've had it with Dean's behaviour. Maybe it's because there's too much focus on the character and I feel manipulated into pulling for him even when he's wrong, but I want HIM to get over it and take steps to get earn Sam's trust back. I want him to apologize! Why is it so hard when Sam is obviously so angry at what he did? I don't understand what they're doing with him. I thought it would be a redemption arc, or maybe a darker arc, but for now he's completely stagnant and unwilling to change. No wonder Sam is frustrated!

I don't know why Kevin and Ms. Tran weren't more angry at Dean and I'm starting to fear that the frostiness between the brothers will continue until Sam forgives Dean without Dean haven't learned a damn thing.

Finally, the lack of Sam POV is getting ridiculous, and it's hurting the show, because there's a huge story between the brothers right now, but we're only getting one emotional perspective and it's too lopsided to be truly compelling. After what Dean did, I would much rather the writing be more sympathetic to the victim, maybe something as simple as following Sam into his room and giving him the last shot of the episode for a change?

Sorry, I sort of ramble when I'm upset.

And Percy, I agree with you. If Charlie was in Heaven, Sam would have been too.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-26 23:16
Well, I'm not an happy camper.

I don't know how Sam can "get over it" and forgive Dean when Dean is not even seeking forgiveness. I really don't.

I understand where Dean is coming from and why he did what he did. I know he's hurting. I'm trying really hard to sympathise with him, but there's SO MUCH angst without self-reflection , and it's borthering on self-pity at this point. He's also unrepentant, digging his heels in and acting like he was the one wronged. That last shot with his headphones on reminded me of when my teenager was pouting in his room because he didn't get his way.

I've had it with Dean's behaviour. Maybe it's because there's too much focus on the character and I feel manipulated into pulling for him even when he's wrong, but I want HIM to get over it and take steps to get earn Sam's trust back. I want him to apologize! Why is it so hard when Sam is obviously so angry at what he did? I don't understand what they're doing with him. I thought it would be a redemption arc, or maybe a darker arc, but for now he's completely stagnant and unwilling to change. No wonder Sam is frustrated!

I don't know why Kevin and Ms. Tran weren't more angry at Dean and I'm starting to fear that the frostiness between the brothers will continue until Sam forgives Dean without Dean haven't learned a damn thing.

Finally, the lack of Sam POV is getting ridiculous, and it's hurting the show, because there's a huge story between the brothers right now, but we're only getting one emotional perspective and it's too lopsided to be truly compelling. After what Dean did, I would much rather the writing be more sympathetic to the victim, maybe something as simple as following Sam into his room and giving him the last shot of the episode for a change?

Sorry, I sort of ramble when I'm upset.

And Percy, I agree with you. If Charlie was in Heaven, Sam would have been too.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-26 23:18
hey alice. nice review but i think perhaps it's possible that you could be jumping to conclusion that sam brushed dean off. cheryl42 made a very valid point on the other thread. she noted that sam walked away from dean before he even turned around. so i just finished watching the eppy again. she was right.
so i was thinking about sam during this episode. first, sam is confronted by kevin, who sam feels responsible for killing. then sam is locked in a room with mrs tran, the mother of the boy he killed. he has to listen to her talk about her son, hoping that they had left him somewhere safe. then sam couldn't hold it in any longer and had to let her know her son was dead. i can't imagine it went any further than that. what was he to say, that he had killed her son? then they return to the bunker and sam watches a mother reunite with a son he took from her. with all that kevin turns around and releases the boys of their guilt. he releases sam of his guilt by blaming what really killed him. then he talks of them letting go. letting go of their guilt. letting go of their anger. sam promises kevin that he will, and then as kevin leaves sam leaves the room.
everyone is assuming that sam left the room to avoid dean. but cheryl was right, sam didn't even hear dean say anything as he was already out the door. i don't think sam left the room to avoid dean.
it's my belief, given everything that sam was feeling since the moment kevin showed up in the bunker til the moment he left with his mother, that sam was completely overwhelmed. to feel such guilt for so long and then to have the person you feel guilty about set you free from that. the emotion that must've been feeling. i think he left the room to deal with his feelings as to what just happened. in all honesty, though i know he's struggling with the conflct with dean, i really didn't think sam was brushing dean off. i don't think sam walking out of the room was about dean at all. i believe, upon second watch, that sam was just so emotionally overwhelmed over kevin, that he needed to run off so he can break down in private.
that's the way i see it anyhow.

loved the eppy. percy, you are right, charlie was told that she had been to heaven. so either the writer's forgot or perhaps killing kevin prevents all souls from entering heaven somehow, where it hadn't before. the people that are in the veil could be those who died since kevin had.
just a thought.....
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-26 23:18
hey alice. nice review but i think perhaps it's possible that you could be jumping to conclusion that sam brushed dean off. cheryl42 made a very valid point on the other thread. she noted that sam walked away from dean before he even turned around. so i just finished watching the eppy again. she was right.
so i was thinking about sam during this episode. first, sam is confronted by kevin, who sam feels responsible for killing. then sam is locked in a room with mrs tran, the mother of the boy he killed. he has to listen to her talk about her son, hoping that they had left him somewhere safe. then sam couldn't hold it in any longer and had to let her know her son was dead. i can't imagine it went any further than that. what was he to say, that he had killed her son? then they return to the bunker and sam watches a mother reunite with a son he took from her. with all that kevin turns around and releases the boys of their guilt. he releases sam of his guilt by blaming what really killed him. then he talks of them letting go. letting go of their guilt. letting go of their anger. sam promises kevin that he will, and then as kevin leaves sam leaves the room.
everyone is assuming that sam left the room to avoid dean. but cheryl was right, sam didn't even hear dean say anything as he was already out the door. i don't think sam left the room to avoid dean.
it's my belief, given everything that sam was feeling since the moment kevin showed up in the bunker til the moment he left with his mother, that sam was completely overwhelmed. to feel such guilt for so long and then to have the person you feel guilty about set you free from that. the emotion that must've been feeling. i think he left the room to deal with his feelings as to what just happened. in all honesty, though i know he's struggling with the conflct with dean, i really didn't think sam was brushing dean off. i don't think sam walking out of the room was about dean at all. i believe, upon second watch, that sam was just so emotionally overwhelmed over kevin, that he needed to run off so he can break down in private.
that's the way i see it anyhow.

loved the eppy. percy, you are right, charlie was told that she had been to heaven. so either the writer's forgot or perhaps killing kevin prevents all souls from entering heaven somehow, where it hadn't before. the people that are in the veil could be those who died since kevin had.
just a thought.....
dashnjo
# dashnjo 2014-02-26 23:24
Great reading of the episode as usual ... Miss you writing all the time (and Sweetondean)! I just worry for Cas when he fulfills his mission. As far as we've been shown angels just go, well, nowhere when they die (trenchcoated angel aside whom God keeps bringing back ... Ok, and Gadreel but that was about creating trust with Dean) and it would be horrible for him to just cease to exist completely because he's completed the mission. I mean, yeah, it's the ultimate sacrifice, but it just seems somehow unfair. I mean, yeah, he's made mistakes (so have Sam and Dean) but he's trying to make amends and that's what's important. He didn't go down the wrong path and then continue that way without ever looking back and that's not worthy of just going nowhere. I'm just scared for our angel!

What you said about the boys is right on! Luckily I don't worry about just one or two episodes but wait until the end to see what happens because it's a journey and there's 23 episodes to tell that story in one season and another next season to maybe finish it so I'm patient. I would rather have them on the same page but it's not the right time and I don't want it until it's real. They've been putting bandaids over their issues for years and I want it to be completely healed and that takes time!
dashnjo
# dashnjo 2014-02-26 23:24
Great reading of the episode as usual ... Miss you writing all the time (and Sweetondean)! I just worry for Cas when he fulfills his mission. As far as we've been shown angels just go, well, nowhere when they die (trenchcoated angel aside whom God keeps bringing back ... Ok, and Gadreel but that was about creating trust with Dean) and it would be horrible for him to just cease to exist completely because he's completed the mission. I mean, yeah, it's the ultimate sacrifice, but it just seems somehow unfair. I mean, yeah, he's made mistakes (so have Sam and Dean) but he's trying to make amends and that's what's important. He didn't go down the wrong path and then continue that way without ever looking back and that's not worthy of just going nowhere. I'm just scared for our angel!

What you said about the boys is right on! Luckily I don't worry about just one or two episodes but wait until the end to see what happens because it's a journey and there's 23 episodes to tell that story in one season and another next season to maybe finish it so I'm patient. I would rather have them on the same page but it's not the right time and I don't want it until it's real. They've been putting bandaids over their issues for years and I want it to be completely healed and that takes time!
alice
# alice 2014-02-26 23:29
Thanks everyone! I'm doing a review this week because I'm filling in for Sophia. I usually find that by the time I get around to writing a review, I have nothing to add because all the other reviewers have it well covered. We have a lot of good reviewers here.
Alice
# Alice 2014-02-26 23:29
Thanks everyone! I'm doing a review this week because I'm filling in for Sophia. I usually find that by the time I get around to writing a review, I have nothing to add because all the other reviewers have it well covered. We have a lot of good reviewers here.
Puck
# Puck 2014-02-27 00:26
Quote:
From Alice: What is all this driving him toward? It has me very, very worried.
Me, too! I think there's been so much on the back and forth between everything going on with Sam that people have forgotton Dean is a major danger to himself right now. The guy needs a hug...at this point even Crowley would do.

For whatever reason he did it I'm still annoyed that Sam walked away, but Nappi you're right. There was a long pause before going into the bedroom...and Jared's expression...I just noticed it on the rewatch. You just gave me some hope.

I just saw 9.16 is titled "Blade Runners," so three guesses what that will be about! I've got my rum at the ready, because I'm sure it'll be a doozy.

Glad to hear you liked the episode Alice. I know the show has been hard for you lately.
Puck
# Puck 2014-02-27 00:26
Quote:
From Alice: What is all this driving him toward? It has me very, very worried.
Me, too! I think there's been so much on the back and forth between everything going on with Sam that people have forgotton Dean is a major danger to himself right now. The guy needs a hug...at this point even Crowley would do.

For whatever reason he did it I'm still annoyed that Sam walked away, but Nappi you're right. There was a long pause before going into the bedroom...and Jared's expression...I just noticed it on the rewatch. You just gave me some hope.

I just saw 9.16 is titled "Blade Runners," so three guesses what that will be about! I've got my rum at the ready, because I'm sure it'll be a doozy.

Glad to hear you liked the episode Alice. I know the show has been hard for you lately.
DeanColt45
# DeanColt45 2014-02-27 00:44
Metatron said in a recent episode that when he killed Kevin, he pulled a few switches in heaven to keep anymore prophets from popping up. Perhaps, in an effort to keep Kevin out of heaven, he flipped that switch as well and now no one gets in. Just a thought.
DeanColt45
# DeanColt45 2014-02-27 00:44
Metatron said in a recent episode that when he killed Kevin, he pulled a few switches in heaven to keep anymore prophets from popping up. Perhaps, in an effort to keep Kevin out of heaven, he flipped that switch as well and now no one gets in. Just a thought.
Trucklady
# Trucklady 2014-02-27 00:45
Quote of nappii815 "everyone is assuming that sam left the room to avoid dean. but cheryl was right, sam didn't even hear dean say anything as he was already out the door. i don't think sam left the room to avoid dean.
it's my belief, given everything that sam was feeling since the moment kevin showed up in the bunker til the moment he left with his mother, that sam was completely overwhelmed. to feel such guilt for so long and then to have the person you feel guilty about set you free from that. the emotion that must've been feeling. i think he left the room to deal with his feelings as to what just happened. in all honesty, though i know he's struggling with the conflct with dean, i really didn't think sam was brushing dean off. i don't think sam walking out of the room was about dean at all. i believe, upon second watch, that sam was just so emotionally overwhelmed over kevin, that he needed to run off so he can break down in private. that's the way i see it anyhow. "unquote

Boy I have to disagree with this statement. Dean's voice carries and the bunker echos and Sam was only a few steps away from Dean when Dean said those three little words so I have no doubts that Sam heard him. The pause at his room door also told me that he was having second thoughts that maybe he should go back and talk but is still pouting and punishing Dean so pride took over. They both need to "get over it" and sit down and talk like grown men and brothers that love each other and work this out.

I agree with you Alice that Dean was pissed off in the end scene. It's like, alright enough is enough. I screwed up but you are alive, something you wanted all along (remember light at the end of the tunnel), minus the conversation with death (and I think that was only because he thought there was no hope). Sam is acting like a 10 year old little boy who's favorite toy was taken away from him but I know the Sam that has all the humanity and reasoning, and love for his brother within him somewhere there will come out. (I have the urge to put him over my knee and give him an old fashion spanking but I just opened up a whole other conversation there. :-) ) I'm just hoping it doesn't take Dean going really dark before that happens. Either way, I'm enjoying the heck out of this season, I still love both the boys and have all the faith that by the end of the season they will start sharing their toys again and make nice with each other. With that being said, great review Alice. Thank you for your insight and leaving us with more questions to ponder. :sigh:
Trucklady
# Trucklady 2014-02-27 00:45
Quote of nappii815 "everyone is assuming that sam left the room to avoid dean. but cheryl was right, sam didn't even hear dean say anything as he was already out the door. i don't think sam left the room to avoid dean.
it's my belief, given everything that sam was feeling since the moment kevin showed up in the bunker til the moment he left with his mother, that sam was completely overwhelmed. to feel such guilt for so long and then to have the person you feel guilty about set you free from that. the emotion that must've been feeling. i think he left the room to deal with his feelings as to what just happened. in all honesty, though i know he's struggling with the conflct with dean, i really didn't think sam was brushing dean off. i don't think sam walking out of the room was about dean at all. i believe, upon second watch, that sam was just so emotionally overwhelmed over kevin, that he needed to run off so he can break down in private. that's the way i see it anyhow. "unquote

Boy I have to disagree with this statement. Dean's voice carries and the bunker echos and Sam was only a few steps away from Dean when Dean said those three little words so I have no doubts that Sam heard him. The pause at his room door also told me that he was having second thoughts that maybe he should go back and talk but is still pouting and punishing Dean so pride took over. They both need to "get over it" and sit down and talk like grown men and brothers that love each other and work this out.

I agree with you Alice that Dean was pissed off in the end scene. It's like, alright enough is enough. I screwed up but you are alive, something you wanted all along (remember light at the end of the tunnel), minus the conversation with death (and I think that was only because he thought there was no hope). Sam is acting like a 10 year old little boy who's favorite toy was taken away from him but I know the Sam that has all the humanity and reasoning, and love for his brother within him somewhere there will come out. (I have the urge to put him over my knee and give him an old fashion spanking but I just opened up a whole other conversation there. :-) ) I'm just hoping it doesn't take Dean going really dark before that happens. Either way, I'm enjoying the heck out of this season, I still love both the boys and have all the faith that by the end of the season they will start sharing their toys again and make nice with each other. With that being said, great review Alice. Thank you for your insight and leaving us with more questions to ponder. :sigh:
CastielsCat
# CastielsCat 2014-02-27 01:51
Quoting percysowner:
Quote:
Think about it. Imagine Sam in the season premiere going with Death (or whoever it was) to the great beyond. He would have been stuffed into the veil! Death (or whoever) wouldn’t really be able to deliver on that promise of never coming back, would he? Of course if it was Death, he’s pretty powerful, so maybe he would have been able to get Sam into Heaven. But suddenly, the idea of saving Sam
from death no matter what the cost doesn’t seem so
bad.


I caught this too. Perhaps it started when Metatron fixed things so that no new prophets would be called. Maybe as long as Kevin cannot get to heaven another prophet is not activated.
Or it's a big boo boo.

I suspect I'll be saying this in many reviews. When Charlie died in Slumber Party, she described going to Heaven, not waiting in the veil. She was in one of her happiest memories, a Christmas with her Mom and Dad. Dorothy told her that was heaven and that you weren't a hunter until you died at least once. So I think the closing of the boarders of heaven did not start when Metatron threw the angels out. Metatron told Cas that when Cas died he would return to heaven with many new stories to tell Metatron. Basically, I think that if Sam had died in 9.01 he would have gotten into heaven, since all indications were that it was still open. I don't know what changed and when it changed, but sometime after Slumber Party.

I suspect I'll be repeating this in many reviews, BUT in Slumber Party Charlie died. She described being in one of her happiest memories, a Christmas with her Mom and Dad.
CastielsCat
# CastielsCat 2014-02-27 01:51
Quote:
Quote:
Think about it. Imagine Sam in the season premiere going with Death (or whoever it was) to the great beyond. He would have been stuffed into the veil! Death (or whoever) wouldn’t really be able to deliver on that promise of never coming back, would he? Of course if it was Death, he’s pretty powerful, so maybe he would have been able to get Sam into Heaven. But suddenly, the idea of saving Sam
from death no matter what the cost doesn’t seem so
bad.
I caught this too. Perhaps it started when Metatron fixed things so that no new prophets would be called. Maybe as long as Kevin cannot get to heaven another prophet is not activated.
Or it's a big boo boo.

I suspect I'll be saying this in many reviews. When Charlie died in Slumber Party, she described going to Heaven, not waiting in the veil. She was in one of her happiest memories, a Christmas with her Mom and Dad. Dorothy told her that was heaven and that you weren't a hunter until you died at least once. So I think the closing of the boarders of heaven did not start when Metatron threw the angels out. Metatron told Cas that when Cas died he would return to heaven with many new stories to tell Metatron. Basically, I think that if Sam had died in 9.01 he would have gotten into heaven, since all indications were that it was still open. I don't know what changed and when it changed, but sometime after Slumber Party.

I suspect I'll be repeating this in many reviews, BUT in Slumber Party Charlie died. She described being in one of her happiest memories, a Christmas with her Mom and Dad.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-27 02:51
I am trying to understand people,s pov's over the brothers right now but I am struggling to understand how Sam is emerging as the one in the wrong. As if Kevin telling him to 'get over it' was going to be a cure for all of Sam's feelings in one go.

So Dean decided he wanted to talk from a place where he does not think he did anything wrong and would do it again, why would Sam want to start from that place ?and why should he be expected to and yet because he did not his childish or being unfair . I only wish that what Dean had done was as trivial as 'stealing a toy' but it was not was it on any level.

I dont know maybe the fandom as been living in Dean's pov for too long .
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-27 02:51
I am trying to understand people,s pov's over the brothers right now but I am struggling to understand how Sam is emerging as the one in the wrong. As if Kevin telling him to 'get over it' was going to be a cure for all of Sam's feelings in one go.

So Dean decided he wanted to talk from a place where he does not think he did anything wrong and would do it again, why would Sam want to start from that place ?and why should he be expected to and yet because he did not his childish or being unfair . I only wish that what Dean had done was as trivial as 'stealing a toy' but it was not was it on any level.

I dont know maybe the fandom as been living in Dean's pov for too long .
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-27 04:06
I'm with you Sharon, but I've already said all I have to say on many other threads, so I'll leave it there :)
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-27 04:06
I'm with you Sharon, but I've already said all I have to say on many other threads, so I'll leave it there :)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-27 05:10
#13 Trucklady I really can't see how Sam being angry at Dean for what he did is throwing a tantrum. I think Sam has said all he can say right now. Dean only said one or two words to Sam's retreating back before he also went to his room. And yes every time there has been an emotional brother scene the camera stays on Dean's sad tortured face. All we get to see of Sam is his back. How is Sam supposed to feel? Why does he need to get over it just because Kevin, who has no clue about Sam's history with possession told him to. I just don't get how Sam is the bad brother because he can't talk to Dean right now. Dean has had months to process what was going on with Sam. Sam has had a couple of weeks, I think he is still reeling.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-27 05:10
#13 Trucklady I really can't see how Sam being angry at Dean for what he did is throwing a tantrum. I think Sam has said all he can say right now. Dean only said one or two words to Sam's retreating back before he also went to his room. And yes every time there has been an emotional brother scene the camera stays on Dean's sad tortured face. All we get to see of Sam is his back. How is Sam supposed to feel? Why does he need to get over it just because Kevin, who has no clue about Sam's history with possession told him to. I just don't get how Sam is the bad brother because he can't talk to Dean right now. Dean has had months to process what was going on with Sam. Sam has had a couple of weeks, I think he is still reeling.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-27 07:03
i did watch the scene again and sam was not just a few steps from dean when dean turned around. he was at the door entrance, back turned towards dean and sam seemed pretty focused to me. dean didn't raise his voice when he started talking because he thought sam was still standing where he was. it's still very plausible that sam was overwhelmed over everything and needed to be alone to sort out his feelings and emotionally let go of some of the pain. doesn't mean he was dissing dean, as his pained expression and hesitation going in his room exemplifies hurt and conflict. and i agree with sharon. kevin basically gave dean a get out of jail free card so any talk he would've had with sam would've come from a place where he doesn't see where he is wrong. and i fear for dean even more because kevin wasn't angry. dean already admitted he would do it all again. kevin just gave dean the green light. this only hurts dean even more in the end. the only person who is showing any real concern for dean right now is sam.
i agree that sam needs time. he only just found out what has happened to him. he's not a vulcan who is only driven by logic. he's a human being.
dean has had months to process. i will even go as far to say that dean had months to tell sam the truth...but he didn't. maybe if he had dean wouldn't be all pissy in his room listening to billy squier.
dean knew this was going to happen. he knew how sam felt. did dean really think that sam would not be upset about it all? that sam could just forget? maybe he did because sam has always forgiven dean for every wrong he's committed to sam. but then again, this is the first time sam killed a member of their "family" by his own hand. maybe this time sam drew the line. perhaps sam is as sick of the endless cycle of going to extremes that always ends up in pain and bloodshed on the winchester's behalf as i am.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-27 07:03
i did watch the scene again and sam was not just a few steps from dean when dean turned around. he was at the door entrance, back turned towards dean and sam seemed pretty focused to me. dean didn't raise his voice when he started talking because he thought sam was still standing where he was. it's still very plausible that sam was overwhelmed over everything and needed to be alone to sort out his feelings and emotionally let go of some of the pain. doesn't mean he was dissing dean, as his pained expression and hesitation going in his room exemplifies hurt and conflict. and i agree with sharon. kevin basically gave dean a get out of jail free card so any talk he would've had with sam would've come from a place where he doesn't see where he is wrong. and i fear for dean even more because kevin wasn't angry. dean already admitted he would do it all again. kevin just gave dean the green light. this only hurts dean even more in the end. the only person who is showing any real concern for dean right now is sam.
i agree that sam needs time. he only just found out what has happened to him. he's not a vulcan who is only driven by logic. he's a human being.
dean has had months to process. i will even go as far to say that dean had months to tell sam the truth...but he didn't. maybe if he had dean wouldn't be all pissy in his room listening to billy squier.
dean knew this was going to happen. he knew how sam felt. did dean really think that sam would not be upset about it all? that sam could just forget? maybe he did because sam has always forgiven dean for every wrong he's committed to sam. but then again, this is the first time sam killed a member of their "family" by his own hand. maybe this time sam drew the line. perhaps sam is as sick of the endless cycle of going to extremes that always ends up in pain and bloodshed on the winchester's behalf as i am.
mary9930
# mary9930 2014-02-27 07:48
Maybe Sam will be sent into the future to see what happens if he doesn't stop pushing Dean away. Mark of Cain????

I think the point of this season is that Sam has something he needs to get over. Since Sam is usually the level headed & forgiving brother, it would have to be a severe betrayal for him to push Dean away. I'm not saying Sam isn't justified in his feelings. I'm just a firm believer in doing the right thing over being in the right. Sam would have every right to sit and wait for Dean to change but is that doing the right thing? Maybe Dean is a Sam junkie similar to how Sam was a demon blood junkie. Dean needs some kind of intervention..
mary9930
# mary9930 2014-02-27 07:48
Maybe Sam will be sent into the future to see what happens if he doesn't stop pushing Dean away. Mark of Cain????

I think the point of this season is that Sam has something he needs to get over. Since Sam is usually the level headed & forgiving brother, it would have to be a severe betrayal for him to push Dean away. I'm not saying Sam isn't justified in his feelings. I'm just a firm believer in doing the right thing over being in the right. Sam would have every right to sit and wait for Dean to change but is that doing the right thing? Maybe Dean is a Sam junkie similar to how Sam was a demon blood junkie. Dean needs some kind of intervention..
amyh
# amyh 2014-02-27 08:23
Quoting nappi815:
hey alice. nice review but i think perhaps it's possible that you could be jumping to conclusion that sam brushed dean off. cheryl42 made a very valid point on the other thread. she noted that sam walked away from dean before he even turned around. so i just finished watching the eppy again. she was right.
so i was thinking about sam during this episode. first, sam is confronted by kevin, who sam feels responsible for killing. then sam is locked in a room with mrs tran, the mother of the boy he killed. he has to listen to her talk about her son, hoping that they had left him somewhere safe. then sam couldn't hold it in any longer and had to let her know her son was dead. i can't imagine it went any further than that. what was he to say, that he had killed her son? then they return to the bunker and sam watches a mother reunite with a son he took from her. with all that kevin turns around and releases the boys of their guilt. he releases sam of his guilt by blaming what really killed him. then he talks of them letting go. letting go of their guilt. letting go of their anger. sam promises kevin that he will, and then as kevin leaves sam leaves the room.
everyone is assuming that sam left the room to avoid dean. but cheryl was right, sam didn't even hear dean say anything as he was already out the door. i don't think sam left the room to avoid dean.
it's my belief, given everything that sam was feeling since the moment kevin showed up in the bunker til the moment he left with his mother, that sam was completely overwhelmed. to feel such guilt for so long and then to have the person you feel guilty about set you free from that. the emotion that must've been feeling. i think he left the room to deal with his feelings as to what just happened. in all honesty, though i know he's struggling with the conflct with dean, i really didn't think sam was brushing dean off. i don't think sam walking out of the room was about dean at all. i believe, upon second watch, that sam was just so emotionally overwhelmed over kevin, that he needed to run off so he can break down in private.
that's the way i see it anyhow.

loved the eppy. percy, you are right, charlie was told that she had been to heaven. so either the writer's forgot or perhaps killing kevin prevents all souls from entering heaven somehow, where it hadn't before. the people that are in the veil could be those who died since kevin had.
just a thought.....


Wow! I would have loved to have seens Sam in the privacy of his room ...true or not. Thjat would have been truely compelling. A look an an honest and raw moment of Sam alone. Why are the writers afraid of going there? Why?

I gthink this is in response to Percy about Charlie and heaven vs Dean finding himself in heaven. Dean and Bobby are hunters; have done questionable things. It might be that they had to get 'sorted'. Meanwhile Charlie is a pure soul. She would have gotten to 'jump the line'. Immediate entry into heaven.

Besides that....Charlie would never question the memory. Dean of course would. He;s seen too much, lived through a hell of a lot.

I'm conflicted on the brothers story due tot he lack of Sam pov. Its so one sided I pretty much expect Sam is supposed to simply fall into whatever line Dean dictates for and to him. Just follow Dean around waiting for him to tell Sam what to feel or think at any given moment.
amyh
# amyh 2014-02-27 08:23
Quote:
hey alice. nice review but i think perhaps it's possible that you could be jumping to conclusion that sam brushed dean off. cheryl42 made a very valid point on the other thread. she noted that sam walked away from dean before he even turned around. so i just finished watching the eppy again. she was right.
so i was thinking about sam during this episode. first, sam is confronted by kevin, who sam feels responsible for killing. then sam is locked in a room with mrs tran, the mother of the boy he killed. he has to listen to her talk about her son, hoping that they had left him somewhere safe. then sam couldn't hold it in any longer and had to let her know her son was dead. i can't imagine it went any further than that. what was he to say, that he had killed her son? then they return to the bunker and sam watches a mother reunite with a son he took from her. with all that kevin turns around and releases the boys of their guilt. he releases sam of his guilt by blaming what really killed him. then he talks of them letting go. letting go of their guilt. letting go of their anger. sam promises kevin that he will, and then as kevin leaves sam leaves the room.
everyone is assuming that sam left the room to avoid dean. but cheryl was right, sam didn't even hear dean say anything as he was already out the door. i don't think sam left the room to avoid dean.
it's my belief, given everything that sam was feeling since the moment kevin showed up in the bunker til the moment he left with his mother, that sam was completely overwhelmed. to feel such guilt for so long and then to have the person you feel guilty about set you free from that. the emotion that must've been feeling. i think he left the room to deal with his feelings as to what just happened. in all honesty, though i know he's struggling with the conflct with dean, i really didn't think sam was brushing dean off. i don't think sam walking out of the room was about dean at all. i believe, upon second watch, that sam was just so emotionally overwhelmed over kevin, that he needed to run off so he can break down in private.
that's the way i see it anyhow.

loved the eppy. percy, you are right, charlie was told that she had been to heaven. so either the writer's forgot or perhaps killing kevin prevents all souls from entering heaven somehow, where it hadn't before. the people that are in the veil could be those who died since kevin had.
just a thought.....
Wow! I would have loved to have seens Sam in the privacy of his room ...true or not. Thjat would have been truely compelling. A look an an honest and raw moment of Sam alone. Why are the writers afraid of going there? Why?

I gthink this is in response to Percy about Charlie and heaven vs Dean finding himself in heaven. Dean and Bobby are hunters; have done questionable things. It might be that they had to get 'sorted'. Meanwhile Charlie is a pure soul. She would have gotten to 'jump the line'. Immediate entry into heaven.

Besides that....Charlie would never question the memory. Dean of course would. He;s seen too much, lived through a hell of a lot.

I'm conflicted on the brothers story due tot he lack of Sam pov. Its so one sided I pretty much expect Sam is supposed to simply fall into whatever line Dean dictates for and to him. Just follow Dean around waiting for him to tell Sam what to feel or think at any given moment.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-27 09:16
Quoting amyh:
Quoting nappi815:
hey alice. nice review but i think perhaps it's possible that you could be jumping to conclusion that sam brushed dean off. cheryl42 made a very valid point on the other thread. she noted that sam walked away from dean before he even turned around. so i just finished watching the eppy again. she was right.
so i was thinking about sam during this episode. first, sam is confronted by kevin, who sam feels responsible for killing. then sam is locked in a room with mrs tran, the mother of the boy he killed. he has to listen to her talk about her son, hoping that they had left him somewhere safe. then sam couldn't hold it in any longer and had to let her know her son was dead. i can't imagine it went any further than that. what was he to say, that he had killed her son? then they return to the bunker and sam watches a mother reunite with a son he took from her. with all that kevin turns around and releases the boys of their guilt. he releases sam of his guilt by blaming what really killed him. then he talks of them letting go. letting go of their guilt. letting go of their anger. sam promises kevin that he will, and then as kevin leaves sam leaves the room.
everyone is assuming that sam left the room to avoid dean. but cheryl was right, sam didn't even hear dean say anything as he was already out the door. i don't think sam left the room to avoid dean.
it's my belief, given everything that sam was feeling since the moment kevin showed up in the bunker til the moment he left with his mother, that sam was completely overwhelmed. to feel such guilt for so long and then to have the person you feel guilty about set you free from that. the emotion that must've been feeling. i think he left the room to deal with his feelings as to what just happened. in all honesty, though i know he's struggling with the conflct with dean, i really didn't think sam was brushing dean off. i don't think sam walking out of the room was about dean at all. i believe, upon second watch, that sam was just so emotionally overwhelmed over kevin, that he needed to run off so he can break down in private.
that's the way i see it anyhow.

loved the eppy. percy, you are right, charlie was told that she had been to heaven. so either the writer's forgot or perhaps killing kevin prevents all souls from entering heaven somehow, where it hadn't before. the people that are in the veil could be those who died since kevin had.
just a thought.....


Wow! I would have loved to have seens Sam in the privacy of his room ...true or not. Thjat would have been truely compelling. A look an an honest and raw moment of Sam alone. Why are the writers afraid of going there? Why?
.


Because they think 10 mins of Sam and Castiel with Castiel doing most of the talking was sufficent to tell us Sam's feelings.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-27 09:16
Quote:
Quote:
hey alice. nice review but i think perhaps it's possible that you could be jumping to conclusion that sam brushed dean off. cheryl42 made a very valid point on the other thread. she noted that sam walked away from dean before he even turned around. so i just finished watching the eppy again. she was right.
so i was thinking about sam during this episode. first, sam is confronted by kevin, who sam feels responsible for killing. then sam is locked in a room with mrs tran, the mother of the boy he killed. he has to listen to her talk about her son, hoping that they had left him somewhere safe. then sam couldn't hold it in any longer and had to let her know her son was dead. i can't imagine it went any further than that. what was he to say, that he had killed her son? then they return to the bunker and sam watches a mother reunite with a son he took from her. with all that kevin turns around and releases the boys of their guilt. he releases sam of his guilt by blaming what really killed him. then he talks of them letting go. letting go of their guilt. letting go of their anger. sam promises kevin that he will, and then as kevin leaves sam leaves the room.
everyone is assuming that sam left the room to avoid dean. but cheryl was right, sam didn't even hear dean say anything as he was already out the door. i don't think sam left the room to avoid dean.
it's my belief, given everything that sam was feeling since the moment kevin showed up in the bunker til the moment he left with his mother, that sam was completely overwhelmed. to feel such guilt for so long and then to have the person you feel guilty about set you free from that. the emotion that must've been feeling. i think he left the room to deal with his feelings as to what just happened. in all honesty, though i know he's struggling with the conflct with dean, i really didn't think sam was brushing dean off. i don't think sam walking out of the room was about dean at all. i believe, upon second watch, that sam was just so emotionally overwhelmed over kevin, that he needed to run off so he can break down in private.
that's the way i see it anyhow.

loved the eppy. percy, you are right, charlie was told that she had been to heaven. so either the writer's forgot or perhaps killing kevin prevents all souls from entering heaven somehow, where it hadn't before. the people that are in the veil could be those who died since kevin had.
just a thought.....
Wow! I would have loved to have seens Sam in the privacy of his room ...true or not. Thjat would have been truely compelling. A look an an honest and raw moment of Sam alone. Why are the writers afraid of going there? Why?
.
Because they think 10 mins of Sam and Castiel with Castiel doing most of the talking was sufficent to tell us Sam's feelings.
Lilah Kane
# Lilah Kane 2014-02-27 09:50
My first rant ever here. I actually only started to watch the episodes this year (I know, I know. Blasphemy) but it has sucked me in pretty hard and made me to check this site of course. I liked your review Alice and now I am giving my two cents here. I love everything in the show. I guess you can call me a “Dean worshipper” as I do like him more than Sam. But that doesn’t mean I don’t like Sam. Some of the opinions/FB comments has made my hair go up and not in a good way. Some opinions has been pretty horrid even though they seem to like Supernatural. But now we come to the question that has risen in this season: “Whose fault is this situation with the brothers?”
In a fight both sides are to blame, some more than others. Some say the writers want to make Dean the victim. Maybe it shows to some that way, but I see it in a way that he is guilty and he knows it and he is in trouble with capital T. Sam is surviving in a way because he has in a way strength in him and he doesn’t seem “suicidal”. Yes, I said it, but Dean. He is in NO WAY surviving at the moment. Someone pointed out that he looks like he isn’t sleeping. I think that might be true. He is just sinking lower and lower as Sam is hurt also so he can’t be there for him. Both love one another and Sam has shown it. In purge he was a storm to the person who dared to drug Dean. In captives he run like the wind when Dean yelled his name. And the demon that hurt Dean, well, he got what was coming for him. Sam’s face when he said “even worse will come for him” showed no mercy.
They are focusing on Dean because I think the Mark of Cain has all to do with this. I am sure it is not anything good. He will fall and hard. Will Dean be a knight of hell? Will he be ordered to obey? Will he turn to a demon or lose all his feelings? I am really waiting for the Blade Runners episode to see what is coming.
I have a big brother of my own and the fights we had I still remember. In fights usually both sides sink to be the 10 years old. Even grownups so how both of them act now is no surprise to me. One time I actually asked my brother a weird question as I was watching tv and something happened there. I asked him. “If somebody would hurt me or attack me outside what he would do? He answered:” The police would better get the person responsible before he does.” and on this moment I was not seeing eye to eye with my brother. I was surprised but that is what fighting do. I know this is just words and I don’t regard my brother a violent person. But he would protect me and show nobody should hurt me.
In Supernatural the brothers are different. They think differently. Dean doesn’t want to talk and Sam does. I am mostly like Dean. It is hard for me to talk about difficult things. I rather keep stuff in and if someone tries to get something out of me I run screaming to the next continent. I know I make people around me nuts and specially my loved ones. But in the end I will talk usually and all is OK.
So, in this rant. I am on the brothers side and I hope they would STOP FIGHTING. I really hate fights and how they have written the boys really feel like real fighting. It has risen emotions in all that watch and some has been really strong.
To all, just remember why you watch this show and peace ya’ll. Don’t get frustrated. I hope I made some sense…
Lilah Kane
# Lilah Kane 2014-02-27 09:50
My first rant ever here. I actually only started to watch the episodes this year (I know, I know. Blasphemy) but it has sucked me in pretty hard and made me to check this site of course. I liked your review Alice and now I am giving my two cents here. I love everything in the show. I guess you can call me a “Dean worshipper” as I do like him more than Sam. But that doesn’t mean I don’t like Sam. Some of the opinions/FB comments has made my hair go up and not in a good way. Some opinions has been pretty horrid even though they seem to like Supernatural. But now we come to the question that has risen in this season: “Whose fault is this situation with the brothers?”
In a fight both sides are to blame, some more than others. Some say the writers want to make Dean the victim. Maybe it shows to some that way, but I see it in a way that he is guilty and he knows it and he is in trouble with capital T. Sam is surviving in a way because he has in a way strength in him and he doesn’t seem “suicidal”. Yes, I said it, but Dean. He is in NO WAY surviving at the moment. Someone pointed out that he looks like he isn’t sleeping. I think that might be true. He is just sinking lower and lower as Sam is hurt also so he can’t be there for him. Both love one another and Sam has shown it. In purge he was a storm to the person who dared to drug Dean. In captives he run like the wind when Dean yelled his name. And the demon that hurt Dean, well, he got what was coming for him. Sam’s face when he said “even worse will come for him” showed no mercy.
They are focusing on Dean because I think the Mark of Cain has all to do with this. I am sure it is not anything good. He will fall and hard. Will Dean be a knight of hell? Will he be ordered to obey? Will he turn to a demon or lose all his feelings? I am really waiting for the Blade Runners episode to see what is coming.
I have a big brother of my own and the fights we had I still remember. In fights usually both sides sink to be the 10 years old. Even grownups so how both of them act now is no surprise to me. One time I actually asked my brother a weird question as I was watching tv and something happened there. I asked him. “If somebody would hurt me or attack me outside what he would do? He answered:” The police would better get the person responsible before he does.” and on this moment I was not seeing eye to eye with my brother. I was surprised but that is what fighting do. I know this is just words and I don’t regard my brother a violent person. But he would protect me and show nobody should hurt me.
In Supernatural the brothers are different. They think differently. Dean doesn’t want to talk and Sam does. I am mostly like Dean. It is hard for me to talk about difficult things. I rather keep stuff in and if someone tries to get something out of me I run screaming to the next continent. I know I make people around me nuts and specially my loved ones. But in the end I will talk usually and all is OK.
So, in this rant. I am on the brothers side and I hope they would STOP FIGHTING. I really hate fights and how they have written the boys really feel like real fighting. It has risen emotions in all that watch and some has been really strong.
To all, just remember why you watch this show and peace ya’ll. Don’t get frustrated. I hope I made some sense…
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-27 10:16
Lilah Kane welcome to the craziness that is the Supernatural fandom. I don't think you will find a more passionate group of fans for any show on the planet. I agree with you that the writers are going out of their way to show how much Sam does care about Dean. And who did Dean call out for when he was in trouble? These guys still love each other, they know it, we know it, but we agonize over their conflicts like they are real people that we really know. It is the craziest phenomenon I have ever seen. My sister has become a recent fan and my advice to her was avoid fansites they will make you crazy. They are not for the fainthearted.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-27 10:16
Lilah Kane welcome to the craziness that is the Supernatural fandom. I don't think you will find a more passionate group of fans for any show on the planet. I agree with you that the writers are going out of their way to show how much Sam does care about Dean. And who did Dean call out for when he was in trouble? These guys still love each other, they know it, we know it, but we agonize over their conflicts like they are real people that we really know. It is the craziest phenomenon I have ever seen. My sister has become a recent fan and my advice to her was avoid fansites they will make you crazy. They are not for the fainthearted.
lianne
# lianne 2014-02-27 10:21
Quoting percysowner:
Quote:
Think about it. Imagine Sam in the season premiere going with Death (or whoever it was) to the great beyond. He would have been stuffed into the veil! Death (or whoever) wouldn’t really be able to deliver on that promise of never coming back, would he? Of course if it was Death, he’s pretty powerful, so maybe he would have been able to get Sam into Heaven. But suddenly, the idea of saving Sam from death no matter what the cost doesn’t seem so bad.


I suspect I'll be saying this in many reviews. When Charlie died in Slumber Party, she described going to Heaven, not waiting in the veil. She was in one of her happiest memories, a Christmas with her Mom and Dad. Dorothy told her that was heaven and that you weren't a hunter until you died at least once. So I think the closing of the boarders of heaven did not start when Metatron threw the angels out. Metatron told Cas that when Cas died he would return to heaven with many new stories to tell Metatron. Basically, I think that if Sam had died in 9.01 he would have gotten into heaven, since all indications were that it was still open. I don't know what changed and when it changed, but sometime after Slumber Party.

I suspect I'll be repeating this in many reviews, BUT in Slumber Party Charlie died. She described being in one of her happiest memories, a Christmas with her Mom and Dad.
Charlie did NOT say she went to Heaven. She described her memory, as you say, and Dorothy assumed that Charlie was in Heaven. But that was only an assumption on her part. Charlie could have been in the veil, yet because she was brought back, she only remembered her Christmas memory. But it was not stated that she DID as a fact go to Heaven.

So, I think Alice is correct. We go by canon revealed in this episode by Kevin that:

"Everyone who's died since the angels fell are just stuck inside the veil, waiting. And it's bad in here."

EVERYONE who has died since the angels fell are stuck in the veil.
lianne
# lianne 2014-02-27 10:21
Quote:
Quote:
Think about it. Imagine Sam in the season premiere going with Death (or whoever it was) to the great beyond. He would have been stuffed into the veil! Death (or whoever) wouldn’t really be able to deliver on that promise of never coming back, would he? Of course if it was Death, he’s pretty powerful, so maybe he would have been able to get Sam into Heaven. But suddenly, the idea of saving Sam from death no matter what the cost doesn’t seem so bad.
I suspect I'll be saying this in many reviews. When Charlie died in Slumber Party, she described going to Heaven, not waiting in the veil. She was in one of her happiest memories, a Christmas with her Mom and Dad. Dorothy told her that was heaven and that you weren't a hunter until you died at least once. So I think the closing of the boarders of heaven did not start when Metatron threw the angels out. Metatron told Cas that when Cas died he would return to heaven with many new stories to tell Metatron. Basically, I think that if Sam had died in 9.01 he would have gotten into heaven, since all indications were that it was still open. I don't know what changed and when it changed, but sometime after Slumber Party.

I suspect I'll be repeating this in many reviews, BUT in Slumber Party Charlie died. She described being in one of her happiest memories, a Christmas with her Mom and Dad.
Charlie did NOT say she went to Heaven. She described her memory, as you say, and Dorothy assumed that Charlie was in Heaven. But that was only an assumption on her part. Charlie could have been in the veil, yet because she was brought back, she only remembered her Christmas memory. But it was not stated that she DID as a fact go to Heaven.

So, I think Alice is correct. We go by canon revealed in this episode by Kevin that:

"Everyone who's died since the angels fell are just stuck inside the veil, waiting. And it's bad in here."

EVERYONE who has died since the angels fell are stuck in the veil.
lianne
# lianne 2014-02-27 10:25
"The theme is simple enough, “captives.” There are plenty of those in “Supernatural.” The angels are captives on earth. Kevin is a captive in the veil. Mrs. Tran is a captive of Crowley. Castiel is a captive of Bartholomew and his treachery. Sam and Dean are captives of a fractured relationship, as well as their own personal issues. "

Great review, Alice. I especially like this summation of the episode because upon first viewing I had a difficult time seeing the various plots as a cohesive storyline, but you have summed it up nicely in this review. Thanks.
lianne
# lianne 2014-02-27 10:25
"The theme is simple enough, “captives.” There are plenty of those in “Supernatural.” The angels are captives on earth. Kevin is a captive in the veil. Mrs. Tran is a captive of Crowley. Castiel is a captive of Bartholomew and his treachery. Sam and Dean are captives of a fractured relationship, as well as their own personal issues. "

Great review, Alice. I especially like this summation of the episode because upon first viewing I had a difficult time seeing the various plots as a cohesive storyline, but you have summed it up nicely in this review. Thanks.
SueB
# SueB 2014-02-27 10:47
Nice review Alice and I think you hit all the important beats spot on. I want to quibble with one minor points:
- I think Malachi was considered an extremist in heaven. I don't think represents a moderate faction on earth.

Other comments/opinions:
- I'm glad you brought up the big lever discussion. I still think Closing the Gates of Hell was a BIG CALL and the boys didn't think it through. I suspect we are going to find out that it was good that they stopped.
- Heaven's closure: Kevin specifically said that Heaven has been closed since the Angel's fell. So I don't think it's prophet fiddling. We got an inconsistency with Metatron's comment and Charlie's death to deal with. I'm going to give four options:
1) There's an in-story explanation -- like Metatron didn't fully realize the full impact of his spell. Like he didn't know EVERYONE is shut out. And Charlie had a "reliving greatest hits" moment but not really in heaven.
2) Kevin got it wrong, the gates are only recently shut.
3) Continuity error. They didn't plan out the impact of the spell impacts until AFTER the Charlie episode so they are just ignoring it.
4) Deliberate mislead. They knew they would take this path but figured they could offer up some version of #1. They wanted to wait to amp up the importance of re-opening the Gates of Heaven in the backhalf of the season and waited for the reveal until now.

I'm inclined to either #3 or #4 and frankly, neither bother me all that much.

Speaking of potential continuity confusion. Let's talk about Dean's injuries. Del the Demon cut a shallow slit in his throat and whacked him on the temple hard enough to make him bleed. Again we have options:
1) Clearly they showered between Wichita and Lebanon (both in Kansas), possibly to give Mama Tran a chance to clean up before seeing Kevin. Maybe the injuries were so minor they just didn't show up after the blood was washed away.
2) The CW cream is working overtime and they didn't want to have Dean with a neck slice and temple wound. This is inconsistent BTW with Sam still having a cut lip in Sharp Teeth.
3) Continuity error - They filmed the Kevin scenes before the storage locker scenes and they didn't fix it in post production with CGI. (I noticed they DID put a whisper of cold breath coming out of Dean in post production so I'm thinking they could have fixed the blood a bit).
4) Dean healed fast. Sam didn't notice because he's in avoidance mode and Mrs Tran was rather focused on her own trauma. Has Mark of Cain overtones.
I'm going with #2 for now but keeping my eye out.

Finally, on the brother vs brother front:
- I think Sam IS avoiding Dean because he doesn't know what to say yet. I don't think he's being cold so much as sticking to his guns that something has to be fixed but he doesn't have a solution.
- I think Dean IS pissed because he believes Sam being alive is the RIGHT thing. He knows it in his bones and Mama Tran just demonstrated that he (Dean) is not out of his mind when it comes to devotion to family members.

In terms of the real "crime', here's where I come down::
- Dean's heat-of-the-mom ent decision was the right call for the right reasons --- he thought Sam WANTED to live, he truly didn't think it was Sam's time, and he didn't have time to try and convinced Sam. Dean KNEW what he was doing was against Sam's wishes but he also didn't get a chance to try and talk him around.
- Dean lying to Sam for 6 months was the WRONG decision..Somet ime after they had returned to the bunker (post the run-in with Abaddon), Dean should have told Sam what happened. Or attempted to. Gadreel may have fled and Sam may have died OR Gadreel may have stopped him and Dean would have realized he had a hostage situation. But after the dust settled Sam deserved to know what he did.
- Sam is the victim in terms of having his agency taken away and being lied to. But this is not what he's articulating clearly. It's hard.
- Dean is more sympathetic for many because he, like Mama Tran, will do anything for his brother. The spur-of-the-mom ent life and death choice is hard to debate as unambiguously as Sam is making it. Maybe Sam CAN have that moral certainty but for Dean, when it comes to Sam, that's just not in him. So Dean needed a chance to convince Sam.

I completely agree with the complaint that we are being shown ONLY Dean's POV. I don't think it's favoritism for one brother versus the other. I think we are still in a set-up mode for some big reveal or issue down the line.

So kudos to Jared P for playing along. This is a tough assignment. His character 100% the major victim and yet being portrayed less sympathetically .

I'm keeping my faith in the writers (even WITH continuity errors) that these major stroke are on purpose and will work out.
SueB
# SueB 2014-02-27 10:47
Nice review Alice and I think you hit all the important beats spot on. I want to quibble with one minor points:
- I think Malachi was considered an extremist in heaven. I don't think represents a moderate faction on earth.

Other comments/opinions:
- I'm glad you brought up the big lever discussion. I still think Closing the Gates of Hell was a BIG CALL and the boys didn't think it through. I suspect we are going to find out that it was good that they stopped.
- Heaven's closure: Kevin specifically said that Heaven has been closed since the Angel's fell. So I don't think it's prophet fiddling. We got an inconsistency with Metatron's comment and Charlie's death to deal with. I'm going to give four options:
1) There's an in-story explanation -- like Metatron didn't fully realize the full impact of his spell. Like he didn't know EVERYONE is shut out. And Charlie had a "reliving greatest hits" moment but not really in heaven.
2) Kevin got it wrong, the gates are only recently shut.
3) Continuity error. They didn't plan out the impact of the spell impacts until AFTER the Charlie episode so they are just ignoring it.
4) Deliberate mislead. They knew they would take this path but figured they could offer up some version of #1. They wanted to wait to amp up the importance of re-opening the Gates of Heaven in the backhalf of the season and waited for the reveal until now.

I'm inclined to either #3 or #4 and frankly, neither bother me all that much.

Speaking of potential continuity confusion. Let's talk about Dean's injuries. Del the Demon cut a shallow slit in his throat and whacked him on the temple hard enough to make him bleed. Again we have options:
1) Clearly they showered between Wichita and Lebanon (both in Kansas), possibly to give Mama Tran a chance to clean up before seeing Kevin. Maybe the injuries were so minor they just didn't show up after the blood was washed away.
2) The CW cream is working overtime and they didn't want to have Dean with a neck slice and temple wound. This is inconsistent BTW with Sam still having a cut lip in Sharp Teeth.
3) Continuity error - They filmed the Kevin scenes before the storage locker scenes and they didn't fix it in post production with CGI. (I noticed they DID put a whisper of cold breath coming out of Dean in post production so I'm thinking they could have fixed the blood a bit).
4) Dean healed fast. Sam didn't notice because he's in avoidance mode and Mrs Tran was rather focused on her own trauma. Has Mark of Cain overtones.
I'm going with #2 for now but keeping my eye out.

Finally, on the brother vs brother front:
- I think Sam IS avoiding Dean because he doesn't know what to say yet. I don't think he's being cold so much as sticking to his guns that something has to be fixed but he doesn't have a solution.
- I think Dean IS pissed because he believes Sam being alive is the RIGHT thing. He knows it in his bones and Mama Tran just demonstrated that he (Dean) is not out of his mind when it comes to devotion to family members.

In terms of the real "crime', here's where I come down::
- Dean's heat-of-the-mom ent decision was the right call for the right reasons --- he thought Sam WANTED to live, he truly didn't think it was Sam's time, and he didn't have time to try and convinced Sam. Dean KNEW what he was doing was against Sam's wishes but he also didn't get a chance to try and talk him around.
- Dean lying to Sam for 6 months was the WRONG decision..Somet ime after they had returned to the bunker (post the run-in with Abaddon), Dean should have told Sam what happened. Or attempted to. Gadreel may have fled and Sam may have died OR Gadreel may have stopped him and Dean would have realized he had a hostage situation. But after the dust settled Sam deserved to know what he did.
- Sam is the victim in terms of having his agency taken away and being lied to. But this is not what he's articulating clearly. It's hard.
- Dean is more sympathetic for many because he, like Mama Tran, will do anything for his brother. The spur-of-the-mom ent life and death choice is hard to debate as unambiguously as Sam is making it. Maybe Sam CAN have that moral certainty but for Dean, when it comes to Sam, that's just not in him. So Dean needed a chance to convince Sam.

I completely agree with the complaint that we are being shown ONLY Dean's POV. I don't think it's favoritism for one brother versus the other. I think we are still in a set-up mode for some big reveal or issue down the line.

So kudos to Jared P for playing along. This is a tough assignment. His character 100% the major victim and yet being portrayed less sympathetically .

I'm keeping my faith in the writers (even WITH continuity errors) that these major stroke are on purpose and will work out.
SueB
# SueB 2014-02-27 10:49
Correction to last post:
- Sam's cut lip was in The Purge
SueB
# SueB 2014-02-27 10:49
Correction to last post:
- Sam's cut lip was in The Purge
Lilah Kane
# Lilah Kane 2014-02-27 11:22
Quoting cheryl42:
Lilah Kane welcome to the craziness that is the Supernatural fandom. I don't think you will find a more passionate group of fans for any show on the planet. I agree with you that the writers are going out of their way to show how much Sam does care about Dean. And who did Dean call out for when he was in trouble? These guys still love each other, they know it, we know it, but we agonize over their conflicts like they are real people that we really know. It is the craziest phenomenon I have ever seen. My sister has become a recent fan and my advice to her was avoid fansites they will make you crazy. They are not for the fainthearted.


I hear you loud and clear. Some while I circled around Supernatural as it had been suggested for me that I would like it. When I did, it was like WHAM! and I watched all episodes I could to the last one that aired. I can honestly say I have liked all episodes. I know some are not my liking but those come always. I am watching even all seasons again with my family.
I love horror and the characters and specially the brothers got me hooked on the series. And of course Castiel too.
Some is not letting go Dean. He still comes running. He might not do what we like but if you really have focused on the emotions and the brothers. It has been seen. Maybe not in screen time but little things they do. (I am afraid Dean's mental state turns to self hurt soon) and the both actors have really bring out the hurt in their acting.
PS. I really want to slap them both high heaven and make up! buuuuut, I am also eager to see the writers intake how it will evolve.
PPS. Fot the love of all that is holy. Stay out of the Supernatural FB page. I am not kidding.
Lilah Kane
# Lilah Kane 2014-02-27 11:22
Quote:
Lilah Kane welcome to the craziness that is the Supernatural fandom. I don't think you will find a more passionate group of fans for any show on the planet. I agree with you that the writers are going out of their way to show how much Sam does care about Dean. And who did Dean call out for when he was in trouble? These guys still love each other, they know it, we know it, but we agonize over their conflicts like they are real people that we really know. It is the craziest phenomenon I have ever seen. My sister has become a recent fan and my advice to her was avoid fansites they will make you crazy. They are not for the fainthearted.
I hear you loud and clear. Some while I circled around Supernatural as it had been suggested for me that I would like it. When I did, it was like WHAM! and I watched all episodes I could to the last one that aired. I can honestly say I have liked all episodes. I know some are not my liking but those come always. I am watching even all seasons again with my family.
I love horror and the characters and specially the brothers got me hooked on the series. And of course Castiel too.
Some is not letting go Dean. He still comes running. He might not do what we like but if you really have focused on the emotions and the brothers. It has been seen. Maybe not in screen time but little things they do. (I am afraid Dean's mental state turns to self hurt soon) and the both actors have really bring out the hurt in their acting.
PS. I really want to slap them both high heaven and make up! buuuuut, I am also eager to see the writers intake how it will evolve.
PPS. Fot the love of all that is holy. Stay out of the Supernatural FB page. I am not kidding.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-27 12:35
I try not to venture out of this website. Sometimes I go to IMDB but only because they have the most current news for the show. I avoid comments. This is the only safe place (and a recently retired writers blog) that I feel comfortable enough to make a comment.
By the way thank you Alice for your review. Your opinion is the reason why I came to this website to begin with. I miss it.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-27 12:35
I try not to venture out of this website. Sometimes I go to IMDB but only because they have the most current news for the show. I avoid comments. This is the only safe place (and a recently retired writers blog) that I feel comfortable enough to make a comment.
By the way thank you Alice for your review. Your opinion is the reason why I came to this website to begin with. I miss it.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-02-27 14:27
I was under the impression that this is not what the way Heaven was supposed to be closed becauuse Metatron did not, in fact, move one of the great levers.

The spell he used was a personal spell, not the one from the tablets, so all kinds of side effects could be the result. Plus, since he made that statement about stopping the prophets, I took that to mean that Metatron is sstill tweaking and finessing the spell he used to close Heaven which is a non-traditional spell.

Last night we were told by Bart that Metatron has been seen on Earth multiple times, so he is trying to accomplish something. Probably something to do with the spell he used. He doesn't seem to know about or be concerned about Castiel. What is he up to?
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-02-27 14:27
I was under the impression that this is not what the way Heaven was supposed to be closed becauuse Metatron did not, in fact, move one of the great levers.

The spell he used was a personal spell, not the one from the tablets, so all kinds of side effects could be the result. Plus, since he made that statement about stopping the prophets, I took that to mean that Metatron is sstill tweaking and finessing the spell he used to close Heaven which is a non-traditional spell.

Last night we were told by Bart that Metatron has been seen on Earth multiple times, so he is trying to accomplish something. Probably something to do with the spell he used. He doesn't seem to know about or be concerned about Castiel. What is he up to?
Grace232
# Grace232 2014-02-27 14:49
#15 - I cannot speak for everyone (shoot, half the time I have trouble speaking for me), but I do not think it is that Sam is wrong. The point is a person can be right, and still remain family. I have a brother - he is my only family - he screws up - so do I for that matter - but when he is wrong and I am right, I do not stop being his sister, and treating him like my brother. (Often, when he is wrong, he is in trouble in other areas too, and that is the last time I, as his only family, can turn my back on him). I think some people on the boards are saying they would like to see Sam treat his brother like his brother - he does not have to stop being mad or take back his assertion that Dean was wrong - but they want him to be his brother's, well, his brother.

I remember how frustrated I was with Dean back in season 5 when he was so bitchy to Sam after Sam messed up. I understood the character being mad, but they are their only family, and I wanted Dean to treat his brother as, well, his brother. Fallen Idols is an episode I love because of the ending. I believe we will see a similar episode this season when Sam makes the move Dean made there.

Hey gang - I try to think of it like when reading a book and one or more characters not doing what I want - but how great I feel when they get past the conflict at the end.

Just my thoughts. I really do love this show, angst and all.
Grace232
# Grace232 2014-02-27 14:49
#15 - I cannot speak for everyone (shoot, half the time I have trouble speaking for me), but I do not think it is that Sam is wrong. The point is a person can be right, and still remain family. I have a brother - he is my only family - he screws up - so do I for that matter - but when he is wrong and I am right, I do not stop being his sister, and treating him like my brother. (Often, when he is wrong, he is in trouble in other areas too, and that is the last time I, as his only family, can turn my back on him). I think some people on the boards are saying they would like to see Sam treat his brother like his brother - he does not have to stop being mad or take back his assertion that Dean was wrong - but they want him to be his brother's, well, his brother.

I remember how frustrated I was with Dean back in season 5 when he was so bitchy to Sam after Sam messed up. I understood the character being mad, but they are their only family, and I wanted Dean to treat his brother as, well, his brother. Fallen Idols is an episode I love because of the ending. I believe we will see a similar episode this season when Sam makes the move Dean made there.

Hey gang - I try to think of it like when reading a book and one or more characters not doing what I want - but how great I feel when they get past the conflict at the end.

Just my thoughts. I really do love this show, angst and all.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-02-27 16:59
Quoting mary9930:
Maybe Sam will be sent into the future to see what happens if he doesn't stop pushing Dean away. Mark of Cain????

I think the point of this season is that Sam has something he needs to get over. Since Sam is usually the level headed & forgiving brother, it would have to be a severe betrayal for him to push Dean away. I'm not saying Sam isn't justified in his feelings. I'm just a firm believer in doing the right thing over being in the right. Sam would have every right to sit and wait for Dean to change but is that doing the right thing? Maybe Dean is a Sam junkie similar to how Sam was a demon blood junkie. Dean needs some kind of intervention..

What does Sam have to get over? He's the victim and Dean is the one who victimized him. Dean is the on who has to apologize for what he did to Sam.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-02-27 16:59
Quote:
Maybe Sam will be sent into the future to see what happens if he doesn't stop pushing Dean away. Mark of Cain????

I think the point of this season is that Sam has something he needs to get over. Since Sam is usually the level headed & forgiving brother, it would have to be a severe betrayal for him to push Dean away. I'm not saying Sam isn't justified in his feelings. I'm just a firm believer in doing the right thing over being in the right. Sam would have every right to sit and wait for Dean to change but is that doing the right thing? Maybe Dean is a Sam junkie similar to how Sam was a demon blood junkie. Dean needs some kind of intervention..
What does Sam have to get over? He's the victim and Dean is the one who victimized him. Dean is the on who has to apologize for what he did to Sam.
mary9930
# mary9930 2014-02-27 18:08
@ #22 Jo1027 I don't mean Sam needs to get over this as a flippant remark. Sam needs to come to terms with the situation and decide his own course action. Right now Sam seems to be moving away from Dean and in the past, that wasn't the best solution. Although they still work together and Sam wouldn't hesitate to come to Dean's rescue, he may not recognize subtle signs if the Mark of Cain starts affecting Dean.
mary9930
# mary9930 2014-02-27 18:08
@ #22 Jo1027 I don't mean Sam needs to get over this as a flippant remark. Sam needs to come to terms with the situation and decide his own course action. Right now Sam seems to be moving away from Dean and in the past, that wasn't the best solution. Although they still work together and Sam wouldn't hesitate to come to Dean's rescue, he may not recognize subtle signs if the Mark of Cain starts affecting Dean.
TeresaPezzino
# TeresaPezzino 2014-02-27 21:16
Regarding Dean's blank wall behind his head in his room-has he packed his things?
TeresaPezzino
# TeresaPezzino 2014-02-27 21:16
Regarding Dean's blank wall behind his head in his room-has he packed his things?
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-27 21:39
i don't know why sam has to decide anything right now or even if he's capable. the focus is so much on dean and how upset he is because sam is angry with him that i don't think that some see the true ramifications of what dean has done to his brother.
i'm going to word this as carefully as possible because i don't want anyone to think i'm calling or comparing dean to a rapist, because that is not the case. i am merely trying to point out the similar circumstances suffered by a victim of rape and the circumstances in which sam experienced.
i think most can agree that a victim of rape experiences a loss of control. they are overcome by their attacker and no longer have control of the situation. they no longer have control over what is happening to them. i think it's also safe to say that a victim of rape experiences an invasion of their body. there is no consent given by the victim for the attacker to invade their body and thus also invading their minds as well. and i also think it's safe to say that a victim of rape can not so easity forget what's happened them. it's not so easy to forgive and forget what their attacker has done to them. they are definitely given as much time as they need to process and deal with what has happened.
so if we look at what's happened to sam. sam lost control of his situation. he made a decision that was overridden. every time gad took over, sam lost control of his entire being. he had his memory swiped so he lost control of his own thought process. sam's body was invaded without his actual consent. he was tricked/manipul ated into saying yes when all he knew was that he thought he was saying yes to his brother. so sam's mind and body were violated. sam has experienced almost identical traumas that a rape victim experiences,( major difference being rape is an act of violence) yet sam is not given the same consideration.
sam is expected to move on. he's expected to be nice to dean because dean did it out of love. he was saving his brother. of course, therein lies sam's conflict. he knows this. he knows dean saved him, he knows deep down beneath all his distrust that it was an act of love. but he also knows that in order to do that dean allowed sam's person to be violated. his every thought. his every feeling an open book to a stranger. kids get pissed if their diaries are read. not only that. this invader of sam's body took control of him whenever he saw fit and swiped sam's mind over and over. he used sam to kill. not to mention dean voluntarily calling on gad, pushing sam back down deep within his own body. all of these memories are now sam's.
now sam is left to find a way to reconcile what happened to him with the fact that it was his brother who allowed it all in the first place.
he's supposed to forget all the trauma and show mercy to dean because dean saved him. yes he saved him, but he also allowed him to be violated in such a way that sam would've rather died.
sam loves dean but i don't see how it's mentally/emotio nally possible right now for sam to get over what's happened to him. i don't see why he should be expected to take it easy on dean right now simply because dean can't handle the fact that sam is incapable right now of making this about him.
how does dean manage to take a wrong that was done to sam and make it about him?
i have no doubt that sam will come around. like i said he loves his brother and it's a struggle for him to be grateful(which i do think he is) and so very upset. the inner turmoil exudes from sam's pores.
i don't understand why sam needs to decide a course of action. how can he decide anything right now? he hasn't even had the chance to process everything yet and he's only just been exonerated of his guilt over kevin.
i'm sorry that dean is feeling rejected right now. i'm sorry that dean can't seem to comprehend sam's anger. i'm sorry that dean can't see that an apology is a start to making things right again. not an i'd do it all again....but i'm sorry for the pain that you suffered when i saved you. something like that. what i'm really sorry about is the fact that dean is taking a wrong that he did to his brother, turning the situation around and making it all about how sam is doing wrong by him. the pity party needs to end.
i don't agree that sam's personal distance from his brother at the moment would blind him from seeing changes in dean's behavior. sam would know if something was wrong with dean angry or not...and he would help his brother, angry or not. i have no doubt that sam will end up saving his brother. i have no doubt that everything will be ok.

jmo of course.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-27 21:39
i don't know why sam has to decide anything right now or even if he's capable. the focus is so much on dean and how upset he is because sam is angry with him that i don't think that some see the true ramifications of what dean has done to his brother.
i'm going to word this as carefully as possible because i don't want anyone to think i'm calling or comparing dean to a rapist, because that is not the case. i am merely trying to point out the similar circumstances suffered by a victim of rape and the circumstances in which sam experienced.
i think most can agree that a victim of rape experiences a loss of control. they are overcome by their attacker and no longer have control of the situation. they no longer have control over what is happening to them. i think it's also safe to say that a victim of rape experiences an invasion of their body. there is no consent given by the victim for the attacker to invade their body and thus also invading their minds as well. and i also think it's safe to say that a victim of rape can not so easity forget what's happened them. it's not so easy to forgive and forget what their attacker has done to them. they are definitely given as much time as they need to process and deal with what has happened.
so if we look at what's happened to sam. sam lost control of his situation. he made a decision that was overridden. every time gad took over, sam lost control of his entire being. he had his memory swiped so he lost control of his own thought process. sam's body was invaded without his actual consent. he was tricked/manipul ated into saying yes when all he knew was that he thought he was saying yes to his brother. so sam's mind and body were violated. sam has experienced almost identical traumas that a rape victim experiences,( major difference being rape is an act of violence) yet sam is not given the same consideration.
sam is expected to move on. he's expected to be nice to dean because dean did it out of love. he was saving his brother. of course, therein lies sam's conflict. he knows this. he knows dean saved him, he knows deep down beneath all his distrust that it was an act of love. but he also knows that in order to do that dean allowed sam's person to be violated. his every thought. his every feeling an open book to a stranger. kids get pissed if their diaries are read. not only that. this invader of sam's body took control of him whenever he saw fit and swiped sam's mind over and over. he used sam to kill. not to mention dean voluntarily calling on gad, pushing sam back down deep within his own body. all of these memories are now sam's.
now sam is left to find a way to reconcile what happened to him with the fact that it was his brother who allowed it all in the first place.
he's supposed to forget all the trauma and show mercy to dean because dean saved him. yes he saved him, but he also allowed him to be violated in such a way that sam would've rather died.
sam loves dean but i don't see how it's mentally/emotio nally possible right now for sam to get over what's happened to him. i don't see why he should be expected to take it easy on dean right now simply because dean can't handle the fact that sam is incapable right now of making this about him.
how does dean manage to take a wrong that was done to sam and make it about him?
i have no doubt that sam will come around. like i said he loves his brother and it's a struggle for him to be grateful(which i do think he is) and so very upset. the inner turmoil exudes from sam's pores.
i don't understand why sam needs to decide a course of action. how can he decide anything right now? he hasn't even had the chance to process everything yet and he's only just been exonerated of his guilt over kevin.
i'm sorry that dean is feeling rejected right now. i'm sorry that dean can't seem to comprehend sam's anger. i'm sorry that dean can't see that an apology is a start to making things right again. not an i'd do it all again....but i'm sorry for the pain that you suffered when i saved you. something like that. what i'm really sorry about is the fact that dean is taking a wrong that he did to his brother, turning the situation around and making it all about how sam is doing wrong by him. the pity party needs to end.
i don't agree that sam's personal distance from his brother at the moment would blind him from seeing changes in dean's behavior. sam would know if something was wrong with dean angry or not...and he would help his brother, angry or not. i have no doubt that sam will end up saving his brother. i have no doubt that everything will be ok.

jmo of course.
Evelyn
# Evelyn 2014-02-27 23:57
Thank you for your review, Alice. I could really care less about the angels storyline. I find that to be "filler" for the real story, which is Dean and Sam. And at this moment, any story other than Dean and Sam is just boring to me.

However, I did appreciate your comment about the Dean and Sam rift stating that while it looks like Sam is getting more ready to talk, he still isn't ready because he is afraid of what he might say. I have had a very hard time with the things that Sam has said to Dean, and I am trying very hard to find reasoning behind his comments, and feel any kind of sympathy or empathy towards Sam. It is slow going, but I continue to work on it. I guess I would rather him walk away being afraid of what he might say than have him say something more hurtful to Dean at this point. But, the fact that walking away from Dean at the end of this episode, after promising to Kevin that he would try to let it go, was just another slap in the face. I do fear as you do, that when Sam is finally healed enough emotionally and ready to talk that Dean will just be at that place where he doesn't care anymore and just doesn't want to hear it and will totally shut Sam out. At the end of the episode it did look like Dean was willing to talk, but his cold hard face in those last shots were very scary and I am very concerned for our boy. He is so full of self-hate, loathing, recrimination and guilt that if this continues to go on for much longer I am not sure that even Sam can save him from the edge.

I do disagree with the assessment about the conflict needing to last longer. I am feeling such discontentment with the show at the moment because of the brothers rift, that I am nearing my breaking point with the whole show. I'm not quite sure if it was you, or someone else on your site that felt a lot of discontentment during Season 6, but I heard from a number of fans that they disliked that season so much because of disharmony between the brothers. I enjoyed S6. Yes, there were flaws, and Soulless!Sam did create some problems, but they were still working as a team, were still in harmony (well mostly) with one another, so the season worked for me. But now, the reason I love this show, and the reason I come back week after week is non-existent at the moment and I am having a very hard time sticking with this show that I love so much. I have little faith in Carver & Company in bringing the brothers back together in a good way, but I am clinging onto my hope with all that I have because I have spent too much time, energy, angst (and money) to give up on this show. Irregardless, slowly this show is becoming the one thing this has never been for me - Just another TV show. I hate that, and it makes me sad. So, I really want and need the brothers to resolve their differences sooner rather than later. Or else all my hope and love for this show will be gone.
Evelyn
# Evelyn 2014-02-27 23:57
Thank you for your review, Alice. I could really care less about the angels storyline. I find that to be "filler" for the real story, which is Dean and Sam. And at this moment, any story other than Dean and Sam is just boring to me.

However, I did appreciate your comment about the Dean and Sam rift stating that while it looks like Sam is getting more ready to talk, he still isn't ready because he is afraid of what he might say. I have had a very hard time with the things that Sam has said to Dean, and I am trying very hard to find reasoning behind his comments, and feel any kind of sympathy or empathy towards Sam. It is slow going, but I continue to work on it. I guess I would rather him walk away being afraid of what he might say than have him say something more hurtful to Dean at this point. But, the fact that walking away from Dean at the end of this episode, after promising to Kevin that he would try to let it go, was just another slap in the face. I do fear as you do, that when Sam is finally healed enough emotionally and ready to talk that Dean will just be at that place where he doesn't care anymore and just doesn't want to hear it and will totally shut Sam out. At the end of the episode it did look like Dean was willing to talk, but his cold hard face in those last shots were very scary and I am very concerned for our boy. He is so full of self-hate, loathing, recrimination and guilt that if this continues to go on for much longer I am not sure that even Sam can save him from the edge.

I do disagree with the assessment about the conflict needing to last longer. I am feeling such discontentment with the show at the moment because of the brothers rift, that I am nearing my breaking point with the whole show. I'm not quite sure if it was you, or someone else on your site that felt a lot of discontentment during Season 6, but I heard from a number of fans that they disliked that season so much because of disharmony between the brothers. I enjoyed S6. Yes, there were flaws, and Soulless!Sam did create some problems, but they were still working as a team, were still in harmony (well mostly) with one another, so the season worked for me. But now, the reason I love this show, and the reason I come back week after week is non-existent at the moment and I am having a very hard time sticking with this show that I love so much. I have little faith in Carver & Company in bringing the brothers back together in a good way, but I am clinging onto my hope with all that I have because I have spent too much time, energy, angst (and money) to give up on this show. Irregardless, slowly this show is becoming the one thing this has never been for me - Just another TV show. I hate that, and it makes me sad. So, I really want and need the brothers to resolve their differences sooner rather than later. Or else all my hope and love for this show will be gone.
dashnjo
# dashnjo 2014-02-28 00:51
Quoting Grace232:
#15 - I cannot speak for everyone (shoot, half the time I have trouble speaking for me), but I do not think it is that Sam is wrong. The point is a person can be right, and still remain family. I have a brother - he is my only family - he screws up - so do I for that matter - but when he is wrong and I am right, I do not stop being his sister, and treating him like my brother. (Often, when he is wrong, he is in trouble in other areas too, and that is the last time I, as his only family, can turn my back on him). I think some people on the boards are saying they would like to see Sam treat his brother like his brother - he does not have to stop being mad or take back his assertion that Dean was wrong - but they want him to be his brother's, well, his brother.

I remember how frustrated I was with Dean back in season 5 when he was so bitchy to Sam after Sam messed up. I understood the character being mad, but they are their only family, and I wanted Dean to treat his brother as, well, his brother. Fallen Idols is an episode I love because of the ending. I believe we will see a similar episode this season when Sam makes the move Dean made there.

Hey gang - I try to think of it like when reading a book and one or more characters not doing what I want - but how great I feel when they get past the conflict at the end.

Just my thoughts. I really do love this show, angst and all.


I totally agree with you! Maybe because I also have a brother and even though we haven't fought in a long time I remember many times where he was such a brat I "hated" him but was always quick to protect him if the need came up. Sometimes it took a while and we weren't dealing with life or death situations like Sam and Dean do.

I was also upset with how Dean treated Sam, mostly in season 4, and he was pushing Sam away and it killed me. I love them both and all this drives me nuts a bit but the story's not done being told and I'm enjoying it angst and all. I just hope they get it figured out before Dean goes all dark side ... that's scares me!
dashnjo
# dashnjo 2014-02-28 00:51
Quote:
#15 - I cannot speak for everyone (shoot, half the time I have trouble speaking for me), but I do not think it is that Sam is wrong. The point is a person can be right, and still remain family. I have a brother - he is my only family - he screws up - so do I for that matter - but when he is wrong and I am right, I do not stop being his sister, and treating him like my brother. (Often, when he is wrong, he is in trouble in other areas too, and that is the last time I, as his only family, can turn my back on him). I think some people on the boards are saying they would like to see Sam treat his brother like his brother - he does not have to stop being mad or take back his assertion that Dean was wrong - but they want him to be his brother's, well, his brother.

I remember how frustrated I was with Dean back in season 5 when he was so bitchy to Sam after Sam messed up. I understood the character being mad, but they are their only family, and I wanted Dean to treat his brother as, well, his brother. Fallen Idols is an episode I love because of the ending. I believe we will see a similar episode this season when Sam makes the move Dean made there.

Hey gang - I try to think of it like when reading a book and one or more characters not doing what I want - but how great I feel when they get past the conflict at the end.

Just my thoughts. I really do love this show, angst and all.
I totally agree with you! Maybe because I also have a brother and even though we haven't fought in a long time I remember many times where he was such a brat I "hated" him but was always quick to protect him if the need came up. Sometimes it took a while and we weren't dealing with life or death situations like Sam and Dean do.

I was also upset with how Dean treated Sam, mostly in season 4, and he was pushing Sam away and it killed me. I love them both and all this drives me nuts a bit but the story's not done being told and I'm enjoying it angst and all. I just hope they get it figured out before Dean goes all dark side ... that's scares me!
Bluepony
# Bluepony 2014-02-28 10:31
Alice, thank-you for the review. I enjoyed reading and it gave me food for thought.

I like reading your view of the brother relationship eventhough it is not mine. It helps me to see a different approach to what is on screen and for me that adds to the episode. As I stated in Gerry's review I did not like the episode that much until I read yours and Gerry's review and it helped me to see things I missed. Thanks

I do disagree about Sam not lying to Kevin. He point blank lied to his face. Maybe it was easier to let Kevin think he was going to work on the relationship than make Kevin worry. But this statement really struck me " It’s understandable, Sam is lost in his own issues right now and he can’t see five inches in front of his own face. But he’s softening. Time is healing the wounds. The question is when he’s ready, will Dean be? It seems that Dean was more than willing to talk and Sam’s brush off could change all that. Dean might not be so open next time." I did not see this until I read your review and believe you nailed the brother relationship for the rest of the season. Good or bad it definitely makes for an emotional ride.

Just thank you for adding to my enjoyment of this show.
Bluepony
# Bluepony 2014-02-28 10:31
Alice, thank-you for the review. I enjoyed reading and it gave me food for thought.

I like reading your view of the brother relationship eventhough it is not mine. It helps me to see a different approach to what is on screen and for me that adds to the episode. As I stated in Gerry's review I did not like the episode that much until I read yours and Gerry's review and it helped me to see things I missed. Thanks

I do disagree about Sam not lying to Kevin. He point blank lied to his face. Maybe it was easier to let Kevin think he was going to work on the relationship than make Kevin worry. But this statement really struck me " It’s understandable, Sam is lost in his own issues right now and he can’t see five inches in front of his own face. But he’s softening. Time is healing the wounds. The question is when he’s ready, will Dean be? It seems that Dean was more than willing to talk and Sam’s brush off could change all that. Dean might not be so open next time." I did not see this until I read your review and believe you nailed the brother relationship for the rest of the season. Good or bad it definitely makes for an emotional ride.

Just thank you for adding to my enjoyment of this show.
Evelyn
# Evelyn 2014-02-28 10:37
Hey Alice. I saw your tweets about no comments here about the angel storyline, except for the one about how one hates the angel storyline. I do think that might have been me. So, seeing that tweet, I decided I needed to come back and comment on something else. I get so caught up in the Dean/Sam angst that that is really all I see right now because it hurts so so so much.

Anyway. I loved your assessment about the title "Captives." I hadn't really thought about the title in relation to how all the characters in the story lines expressed are all captives of something one way or another. I found that enlightening for me as I try to sort through it all.

But what I found particularly compelling were the comments about the fact that Heaven is closed, and the spirits that die are unable to get up into heaven. Again, so focused on the Dean/Sam story that I miss a lot of things. But the questions posed are interesting. So, if Sam would have gone with Death, would Death have been powerful enough to open the gates of Heaven and escort Sam inside? And if he would have been powerful enough, would that have opened the gates for everyone else, or just Sam. So, then you gotta ask, why just open the gates for Sam and not everyone else. Is Sam that special to warrant entry when nobody else is. I would think, given how Sam is feeling right now, he would not have been happy gaining entry when all the other souls would have been stuck in the veil. And then you get, so the angels fell, the gates of Heaven are closed, what happened to all the people that are already in Heaven. Are they still there? Did they fall as well? What is the status in Heaven. Is there chaos or is everyone all still in there own little Heaven. So many questions, so few answers. Oh, and what about the Reapers. Given that new spirits can't get up to Heaven, they are currently out of a job, so what has been the affect on them. Death has got to be very upset with this whole thing, again the disruption of the natural order that they talked about in S6. And Dean and Sam are not responsible this time.

So, then you get the other side of the spectrum. If Sam had closed the gates of Hell, no demons would ever be able to get out again. But what about the demons already walking the earth? I would assume they would be stuck here forever, or until killed. But, what about the people that die now and were destined for Hell, what would happen to them. Would they be stuck on earth to forever wander around and cause havoc. They have no entry to Heaven, or Purgatory, Hell is closed so where do they go. I guess it is a good thing that Dean and Sam did not close the gates of Hell. Again we are met with the natural order. Closing the gates of Hell, although a good thing, would have destroyed the natural order of things, and we all know from experience that that is not a good thing.

Your comments about the angels total disregard for humanity, and that they have forgotten their purpose and God's mission for them is so very true. I think a lot of them forgot about what their purpose and mission are way back in Season 5. Naomi caught on at the end of S8. Too bad she was killed. She might have been able to restore some order. The angels do have a total disregard, and I just hope that Castiel can set some things right as far as restoring their mission and purpose. Somebody has to, why not Castiel.

I saw your tweets about thinking on closing your site. I gotta ask, please don't. I know as the admin you have to read all the comments posted, and I am sure that is hard to do given the diversity of feelings in fandom. I don't read comments for that very reason. But I do read the reviews, and only comment occasionally. I do love your reviews and the reviews of your other people because they help me to see things from another perspective. And right now my perspective is so narrow and focused, you all really do help me to see the larger picture, which helps me immensely as I try to process everything that goes on with the Show and with Dean and Sam. So, thank you for your reviews, for your patience and just for this site. I really do appreciate everything you all do to give us some better insight in the world of Supernatural.
Evelyn
# Evelyn 2014-02-28 10:37
Hey Alice. I saw your tweets about no comments here about the angel storyline, except for the one about how one hates the angel storyline. I do think that might have been me. So, seeing that tweet, I decided I needed to come back and comment on something else. I get so caught up in the Dean/Sam angst that that is really all I see right now because it hurts so so so much.

Anyway. I loved your assessment about the title "Captives." I hadn't really thought about the title in relation to how all the characters in the story lines expressed are all captives of something one way or another. I found that enlightening for me as I try to sort through it all.

But what I found particularly compelling were the comments about the fact that Heaven is closed, and the spirits that die are unable to get up into heaven. Again, so focused on the Dean/Sam story that I miss a lot of things. But the questions posed are interesting. So, if Sam would have gone with Death, would Death have been powerful enough to open the gates of Heaven and escort Sam inside? And if he would have been powerful enough, would that have opened the gates for everyone else, or just Sam. So, then you gotta ask, why just open the gates for Sam and not everyone else. Is Sam that special to warrant entry when nobody else is. I would think, given how Sam is feeling right now, he would not have been happy gaining entry when all the other souls would have been stuck in the veil. And then you get, so the angels fell, the gates of Heaven are closed, what happened to all the people that are already in Heaven. Are they still there? Did they fall as well? What is the status in Heaven. Is there chaos or is everyone all still in there own little Heaven. So many questions, so few answers. Oh, and what about the Reapers. Given that new spirits can't get up to Heaven, they are currently out of a job, so what has been the affect on them. Death has got to be very upset with this whole thing, again the disruption of the natural order that they talked about in S6. And Dean and Sam are not responsible this time.

So, then you get the other side of the spectrum. If Sam had closed the gates of Hell, no demons would ever be able to get out again. But what about the demons already walking the earth? I would assume they would be stuck here forever, or until killed. But, what about the people that die now and were destined for Hell, what would happen to them. Would they be stuck on earth to forever wander around and cause havoc. They have no entry to Heaven, or Purgatory, Hell is closed so where do they go. I guess it is a good thing that Dean and Sam did not close the gates of Hell. Again we are met with the natural order. Closing the gates of Hell, although a good thing, would have destroyed the natural order of things, and we all know from experience that that is not a good thing.

Your comments about the angels total disregard for humanity, and that they have forgotten their purpose and God's mission for them is so very true. I think a lot of them forgot about what their purpose and mission are way back in Season 5. Naomi caught on at the end of S8. Too bad she was killed. She might have been able to restore some order. The angels do have a total disregard, and I just hope that Castiel can set some things right as far as restoring their mission and purpose. Somebody has to, why not Castiel.

I saw your tweets about thinking on closing your site. I gotta ask, please don't. I know as the admin you have to read all the comments posted, and I am sure that is hard to do given the diversity of feelings in fandom. I don't read comments for that very reason. But I do read the reviews, and only comment occasionally. I do love your reviews and the reviews of your other people because they help me to see things from another perspective. And right now my perspective is so narrow and focused, you all really do help me to see the larger picture, which helps me immensely as I try to process everything that goes on with the Show and with Dean and Sam. So, thank you for your reviews, for your patience and just for this site. I really do appreciate everything you all do to give us some better insight in the world of Supernatural.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-02-28 10:52
Nice review, Alice. Seeing a lot of the usual Sam vs Dean crap - maybe everyone can call a truce on this and we can go back to discussing the episode and where things are going the rest of S9? Everyone is firmly entrenched in their opinions so any further discussion on who's right and who's wrong seems fruitless to me.

Glad to see some closure on the Kevin and Mrs. Tran story, though Kevin was awfully good at the ghost thing for a newbie. Maybe a benefit of being a prophet :-) I suspect he'll play a role in getting heaven open for business again. I did have one bone to pick, though - I found his comment to Sam and Dean to "get over it", given that he doesn't have all the facts, to be a little flippant. I did like his sarcastic comments to emo-Dean when he was talking to the coffee pot, though.

I do like the twist on Heaven being closed for business. To be honest, the angel storyline wasn't terribly interesting before but this twist makes it a lot more compelling and makes the stakes that much higher. I was wondering; spirits that choose to stay behind become angry and vengeful; will that be the case with everyone in the veil - they didn't choose to stay behind, they're stuck.

I like where they're going with Castiel's story as the reluctant leader; there's a quiet resolve in his demeanor - looks like his time as human has finally given him the proper perspective. Maybe all of those punishment resurrections have finally paid off :-)

I'm just not sure how they reconcile the conflict between Sam and Dean at this point. Dean has doubled down, saying he'd do the same thing all over again and, for Sam, that's a showstopper. Yes, Sam is angry, and Sam is an introvert, but he needs to step up and decide what he wants because clearly this isn't working for either of them. I'm also wondering whether there are external influences on this conflict between the brother i.e. the Mark of Cain and it's influence on Dean or Sam, or both of them? In any event, it looks like it will take something big to get them back on the same page again.

Also I love the way they're using and shooting the MOL bunker this season. They're not overdoing it with the bunker, as I had feared they might last year, but they are using it to maximum effect. Would love to see a picture of your son's Lego MOL bunker when he's done.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-02-28 10:52
Nice review, Alice. Seeing a lot of the usual Sam vs Dean crap - maybe everyone can call a truce on this and we can go back to discussing the episode and where things are going the rest of S9? Everyone is firmly entrenched in their opinions so any further discussion on who's right and who's wrong seems fruitless to me.

Glad to see some closure on the Kevin and Mrs. Tran story, though Kevin was awfully good at the ghost thing for a newbie. Maybe a benefit of being a prophet :-) I suspect he'll play a role in getting heaven open for business again. I did have one bone to pick, though - I found his comment to Sam and Dean to "get over it", given that he doesn't have all the facts, to be a little flippant. I did like his sarcastic comments to emo-Dean when he was talking to the coffee pot, though.

I do like the twist on Heaven being closed for business. To be honest, the angel storyline wasn't terribly interesting before but this twist makes it a lot more compelling and makes the stakes that much higher. I was wondering; spirits that choose to stay behind become angry and vengeful; will that be the case with everyone in the veil - they didn't choose to stay behind, they're stuck.

I like where they're going with Castiel's story as the reluctant leader; there's a quiet resolve in his demeanor - looks like his time as human has finally given him the proper perspective. Maybe all of those punishment resurrections have finally paid off :-)

I'm just not sure how they reconcile the conflict between Sam and Dean at this point. Dean has doubled down, saying he'd do the same thing all over again and, for Sam, that's a showstopper. Yes, Sam is angry, and Sam is an introvert, but he needs to step up and decide what he wants because clearly this isn't working for either of them. I'm also wondering whether there are external influences on this conflict between the brother i.e. the Mark of Cain and it's influence on Dean or Sam, or both of them? In any event, it looks like it will take something big to get them back on the same page again.

Also I love the way they're using and shooting the MOL bunker this season. They're not overdoing it with the bunker, as I had feared they might last year, but they are using it to maximum effect. Would love to see a picture of your son's Lego MOL bunker when he's done.
alice
# alice 2014-02-28 11:35
Thanks Bluepony, Evelyn, and njspnfan for commenting on the review! The discussion does seem to have veered a bit, and I appreciate going back on topic.

Evelyn, don't worry, I would never close this site. I'm just questioning my involvement in this site. I'm thinking of scaling back to be just the administrator for the most part, devoting all my writing time to TVFTROU. This will always be a place to fans to discuss things, even if the threads seem to go off tangent and take a dizzing life of their own.

Hopefully I'll have more time later to answer you all better! I thank you again for commenting.
Alice
# Alice 2014-02-28 11:35
Thanks Bluepony, Evelyn, and njspnfan for commenting on the review! The discussion does seem to have veered a bit, and I appreciate going back on topic.

Evelyn, don't worry, I would never close this site. I'm just questioning my involvement in this site. I'm thinking of scaling back to be just the administrator for the most part, devoting all my writing time to TVFTROU. This will always be a place to fans to discuss things, even if the threads seem to go off tangent and take a dizzing life of their own.

Hopefully I'll have more time later to answer you all better! I thank you again for commenting.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-28 11:46
I know it might seem like Sam vs Dean but I think I am guilty of defending Sam's POV (or lack of) that it might seem like I am piling in Dean. I hope it doesn't come across that way because I really love Dean. I have watched from the first episode this season Dean wrestling with what the right thing to do was. I don't blame him for his decision. It was for him a no win situation and now he is paying the price. I did like Kevin's comment about the pity party. We know you feel bad Dean get over it, confront your brother, make him explain himself and lets get on with your next big problem (MOC) anyone.
I saw the tweet about the angels as well. I don't know what to make of that story. It isn't that I am not interested I just thought that Bart (wasn't it funny that Cas and Bart started calling each other Cas and Bart) was going to be a major character so I was kind of thrown when he died. What is Cas going to be a leader of? We haven't seen too many good angels. How is gathering a strong contingent of angels going to get heaven open again? Cas has to find Metatron and Gad. Will he need the Winchesters help for that? It looks to me like Dean has his hands full right now (who doesn't see a big double cross from Crowely coming). Maybe Sam will help Cas. I would like that but I guess for poetic continuity it would have to be Dean. Is Misha coming back next season? If not this might be his SS. Cas might have to make the ultimate sacrifice for his "people" and for humanity. I think this story is just getting started. I thought finally we are getting on with this and now next week we have Ghost Facers. So all stories on hold for now?
Anyway I loved your analysis of the angel story I just had more questions than comments.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-28 11:46
I know it might seem like Sam vs Dean but I think I am guilty of defending Sam's POV (or lack of) that it might seem like I am piling in Dean. I hope it doesn't come across that way because I really love Dean. I have watched from the first episode this season Dean wrestling with what the right thing to do was. I don't blame him for his decision. It was for him a no win situation and now he is paying the price. I did like Kevin's comment about the pity party. We know you feel bad Dean get over it, confront your brother, make him explain himself and lets get on with your next big problem (MOC) anyone.
I saw the tweet about the angels as well. I don't know what to make of that story. It isn't that I am not interested I just thought that Bart (wasn't it funny that Cas and Bart started calling each other Cas and Bart) was going to be a major character so I was kind of thrown when he died. What is Cas going to be a leader of? We haven't seen too many good angels. How is gathering a strong contingent of angels going to get heaven open again? Cas has to find Metatron and Gad. Will he need the Winchesters help for that? It looks to me like Dean has his hands full right now (who doesn't see a big double cross from Crowely coming). Maybe Sam will help Cas. I would like that but I guess for poetic continuity it would have to be Dean. Is Misha coming back next season? If not this might be his SS. Cas might have to make the ultimate sacrifice for his "people" and for humanity. I think this story is just getting started. I thought finally we are getting on with this and now next week we have Ghost Facers. So all stories on hold for now?
Anyway I loved your analysis of the angel story I just had more questions than comments.
Bluepony
# Bluepony 2014-02-28 11:57
Hey Alice,

I'm not on twitter but regarding the angels perhaps God is letting the angels see what being on earth is like. How humanity interacts, how they make decisions, the bombardment of daily life. Eventhough they don't "feel", they do have some feelings. Fear, anger, quest for power. Most would never experience this part of creation because they never leave or rarely leave heaven.

Not saying Metatron is doing God's will. God is just letting his oldest children experience what his youngest children experience. A walk in the others shoes. Cas is the perfect leader because he has walked in both angel and human shoes. Oh and as Godstiel, the way not to lead.

No one is coming out of this season unchanged.
Bluepony
# Bluepony 2014-02-28 11:57
Hey Alice,

I'm not on twitter but regarding the angels perhaps God is letting the angels see what being on earth is like. How humanity interacts, how they make decisions, the bombardment of daily life. Eventhough they don't "feel", they do have some feelings. Fear, anger, quest for power. Most would never experience this part of creation because they never leave or rarely leave heaven.

Not saying Metatron is doing God's will. God is just letting his oldest children experience what his youngest children experience. A walk in the others shoes. Cas is the perfect leader because he has walked in both angel and human shoes. Oh and as Godstiel, the way not to lead.

No one is coming out of this season unchanged.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-28 15:27
Alice maybe we need a refresher on the parameters of what is acceptable to discuss. I think sometimes those of us that way too much time on our hands get a little carried away with our thoughts. We probably shouldn't write down everything that pops into our heads. I know I am guilty of letting myself wander off topic and then I get responded to so I respond back and before you know I'm in a discussion I never wanted to be a part of. So I try to stop but then someone totally misinterprets what I meant and then there I go again. Unfortunately you set up a safe place for fans to talk and talk we do.
I thought as long as everyone was being respectful we were ok. I for one don't want to lose your voice on your own website so I will be much more careful in what I say and try to make brief comments on the review only.
Sorry to post this here but I am not on twitter. If this is an inappropriate comment please delete it. I mean this very respectfully It was never my intention to offend you or the wonderful writers on your staff.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-28 15:27
Alice maybe we need a refresher on the parameters of what is acceptable to discuss. I think sometimes those of us that way too much time on our hands get a little carried away with our thoughts. We probably shouldn't write down everything that pops into our heads. I know I am guilty of letting myself wander off topic and then I get responded to so I respond back and before you know I'm in a discussion I never wanted to be a part of. So I try to stop but then someone totally misinterprets what I meant and then there I go again. Unfortunately you set up a safe place for fans to talk and talk we do.
I thought as long as everyone was being respectful we were ok. I for one don't want to lose your voice on your own website so I will be much more careful in what I say and try to make brief comments on the review only.
Sorry to post this here but I am not on twitter. If this is an inappropriate comment please delete it. I mean this very respectfully It was never my intention to offend you or the wonderful writers on your staff.
Lilah Kane
# Lilah Kane 2014-02-28 19:08
Hi Alice,
your review was great and I hope I have mostly kept the talk neutral. I am mostly new to this and I actually like what other people notice and talk about the episodes. Like your review. I mostly can't wait to see what happens next with all what season 9 has given.

Keep faith. :)
Lilah Kane
# Lilah Kane 2014-02-28 19:08
Hi Alice,
your review was great and I hope I have mostly kept the talk neutral. I am mostly new to this and I actually like what other people notice and talk about the episodes. Like your review. I mostly can't wait to see what happens next with all what season 9 has given.

Keep faith. :)
alice
# alice 2014-03-01 01:24
Cheryl42 - Don't worry, if you were doing anything wrong, you would have been edited by now. Nothing to worry about.

I suppose my issue was I raised a lot of questions in this review, and yet everyone continued with the harping on Sam and Dean's rift that has been going on with every recent article on this site. That made up a very small section of my review. I had hoped for a broader discussion. It's not really a violation of the rules more than just general disappointment that this is the way things have gone.

However, I haven't had a lot of time to drive direction for discussion either and I'm not sure if what else I could have done. I raised the issue on twitter and a few people responded by saying they don't care about the angels or any of the other stuff. So there you go. I do, so I'll just keep writing about it and not expecting anything else to come of it. If you see my reviews pop up on TV For The Rest of Us from now on though, it's because my reviews aren't suited for this site anymore.
Alice
# Alice 2014-03-01 01:24
Cheryl42 - Don't worry, if you were doing anything wrong, you would have been edited by now. Nothing to worry about.

I suppose my issue was I raised a lot of questions in this review, and yet everyone continued with the harping on Sam and Dean's rift that has been going on with every recent article on this site. That made up a very small section of my review. I had hoped for a broader discussion. It's not really a violation of the rules more than just general disappointment that this is the way things have gone.

However, I haven't had a lot of time to drive direction for discussion either and I'm not sure if what else I could have done. I raised the issue on twitter and a few people responded by saying they don't care about the angels or any of the other stuff. So there you go. I do, so I'll just keep writing about it and not expecting anything else to come of it. If you see my reviews pop up on TV For The Rest of Us from now on though, it's because my reviews aren't suited for this site anymore.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-01 03:10
Thank you Alice. I will definitely watch for your reviews on TVFTROU. I've said this before you are the reason I came to this site in the first place.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-01 03:10
Thank you Alice. I will definitely watch for your reviews on TVFTROU. I've said this before you are the reason I came to this site in the first place.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-01 10:29
I will admit I didn't comment on the angel portion at least partly because I was done with the angels after season five, although I think they got worked in organically in season six. I also realize that as long as Cas is a recurring character AND since the writers seem to have decided that stripping him of his powers and making him permanently human is not on the agenda, that the only way for Cas to continue to be part of the show is to keep the angels as part of the story.

I have several issues with the angels this season, and frankly since season six. By deciding there are angel factions (actually realistic) the show then neglects to show their leaders as fleshed out characters. Bart was an arrogant can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs kind of guy, but other than that he had no personality. Malachi is big showy, would fit in as a gang leader in West Side Story or as the head of a Mafia family, but again no real character development. The non-aligned angels and the pacifist angels get killed off in one episode and their main characteristics seem to be being unaligned or pacifists. I don't have anyone to root for among the angels, except Cas who was killing an angel for his grace one week and then deciding that he doesn't want to kill angels again and then killing Bartholomew because he "had no choice". I'm not sure where they are going with all of this and the writers haven't given me a reason to care about any of it.

I was interested in Gadreel, because he tied to the brothers and he was around long enough to be an actual character as opposed to representing a type. I see the point of Metatron, although I don't like him, but you're not supposed to like the villain, so that's not too bad. I think the whole angels who fell to earth and trying to adapt could have real potential. Instead I'm kind of stuck with "oh for goodness sake, now we just have more people who are only viewed as vessels and will be killed with absolutely NO acknowledgement that people are dying here, along with the angel". I'm just not an angel person and a storyline that uses them without giving me any reason to care about them as individuals or as a political movement just kind of goes past me.

I am hoping that when/if Metatron and Gadreel return to the show I will find something to be interested in. Perhaps heaven being closed for business can make that storyline work for me.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-01 10:29
I will admit I didn't comment on the angel portion at least partly because I was done with the angels after season five, although I think they got worked in organically in season six. I also realize that as long as Cas is a recurring character AND since the writers seem to have decided that stripping him of his powers and making him permanently human is not on the agenda, that the only way for Cas to continue to be part of the show is to keep the angels as part of the story.

I have several issues with the angels this season, and frankly since season six. By deciding there are angel factions (actually realistic) the show then neglects to show their leaders as fleshed out characters. Bart was an arrogant can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs kind of guy, but other than that he had no personality. Malachi is big showy, would fit in as a gang leader in West Side Story or as the head of a Mafia family, but again no real character development. The non-aligned angels and the pacifist angels get killed off in one episode and their main characteristics seem to be being unaligned or pacifists. I don't have anyone to root for among the angels, except Cas who was killing an angel for his grace one week and then deciding that he doesn't want to kill angels again and then killing Bartholomew because he "had no choice". I'm not sure where they are going with all of this and the writers haven't given me a reason to care about any of it.

I was interested in Gadreel, because he tied to the brothers and he was around long enough to be an actual character as opposed to representing a type. I see the point of Metatron, although I don't like him, but you're not supposed to like the villain, so that's not too bad. I think the whole angels who fell to earth and trying to adapt could have real potential. Instead I'm kind of stuck with "oh for goodness sake, now we just have more people who are only viewed as vessels and will be killed with absolutely NO acknowledgement that people are dying here, along with the angel". I'm just not an angel person and a storyline that uses them without giving me any reason to care about them as individuals or as a political movement just kind of goes past me.

I am hoping that when/if Metatron and Gadreel return to the show I will find something to be interested in. Perhaps heaven being closed for business can make that storyline work for me.
Bluepony
# Bluepony 2014-03-01 11:23
Quoting alice:
Cheryl42 - Don't worry, if you were doing anything wrong, you would have been edited by now. Nothing to worry about.

I suppose my issue was I raised a lot of questions in this review, and yet everyone continued with the harping on Sam and Dean's rift that has been going on with every recent article on this site. That made up a very small section of my review. I had hoped for a broader discussion. It's not really a violation of the rules more than just general disappointment that this is the way things have gone.

However, I haven't had a lot of time to drive direction for discussion either and I'm not sure if what else I could have done. I raised the issue on twitter and a few people responded by saying they don't care about the angels or any of the other stuff. So there you go. I do, so I'll just keep writing about it and not expecting anything else to come of it. If you see my reviews pop up on TV For The Rest of Us from now on though, it's because my reviews aren't suited for this site anymore.


Alice, I will definitely watch for your reviews on TVFTROU. Probably most read and don't respond. I have recently become reengaged in posting. What I'm poorly saying is that I would definitely want to discuss all aspects of the show because for me this is the whole story. As you mentioned, heaven closed for business has definitely caused me to think of the ramifications for Sam if he had died. I do believe that there will be consequences to the spirits stuck in the veil. I really do love what this show makes you ponder.
Bluepony
# Bluepony 2014-03-01 11:23
Quote:
Cheryl42 - Don't worry, if you were doing anything wrong, you would have been edited by now. Nothing to worry about.

I suppose my issue was I raised a lot of questions in this review, and yet everyone continued with the harping on Sam and Dean's rift that has been going on with every recent article on this site. That made up a very small section of my review. I had hoped for a broader discussion. It's not really a violation of the rules more than just general disappointment that this is the way things have gone.

However, I haven't had a lot of time to drive direction for discussion either and I'm not sure if what else I could have done. I raised the issue on twitter and a few people responded by saying they don't care about the angels or any of the other stuff. So there you go. I do, so I'll just keep writing about it and not expecting anything else to come of it. If you see my reviews pop up on TV For The Rest of Us from now on though, it's because my reviews aren't suited for this site anymore.
Alice, I will definitely watch for your reviews on TVFTROU. Probably most read and don't respond. I have recently become reengaged in posting. What I'm poorly saying is that I would definitely want to discuss all aspects of the show because for me this is the whole story. As you mentioned, heaven closed for business has definitely caused me to think of the ramifications for Sam if he had died. I do believe that there will be consequences to the spirits stuck in the veil. I really do love what this show makes you ponder.
mary9930
# mary9930 2014-03-01 13:05
Quoting alice:
However, I haven't had a lot of time to drive direction for discussion either and I'm not sure if what else I could have done. I raised the issue on twitter and a few people responded by saying they don't care about the angels or any of the other stuff.


I care about angels. Someone please talk angels with me :sad: The brothers' issues are so polarizing sometimes I'm afraid to chime in.
mary9930
# mary9930 2014-03-01 13:05
Quote:
However, I haven't had a lot of time to drive direction for discussion either and I'm not sure if what else I could have done. I raised the issue on twitter and a few people responded by saying they don't care about the angels or any of the other stuff.
I care about angels. Someone please talk angels with me :sad: The brothers' issues are so polarizing sometimes I'm afraid to chime in.
Jaytee
# Jaytee 2014-03-01 15:18
Hi Alice, I rarely post, well, anywhere, but I'm also finding myself fascinated with the story right now and looking for people to discuss with!

I think we're seeing a fixation on the brother issues in the fandom because (aside from what we all know, that the brothers are the emotional hook for the whole show) the mytharcs have moved fairly slowly and somewhat offscreen lately. Dean has the MoC that no one is talking about, no one knows where Crowley or Abaddon are or what they're doing, no one knows where Gadreel is or what he's doing, the new Angel thing may be interesting but may end up a rehash of previous angel stories, and no one knows what to make of it yet. There are several plotlines that are still pretty nebulous at the moment. In the last four episodes, I think only one of them (when Dean gets the MoC) really got into the other mytharcs. Aside from that, we had "Road Trip" which had to be brother-heavy of necessity, two non-mytharc episodes, and a nuke dropped on the brother relationship. Then nothing, for two weeks, which put fandom into a total tizzy and with little to talk about other than the relationship-nuke.

I think the PTB knew what they were doing, dropping that nuke just before the shorter hiatus so that it was all we talked about and we waited with baited breath for something to happen between Sam and Dean. "Captives," likewise, is mostly character driven, with Cas and the angel storyline as a B plot. So all we're thinking about is Sam and Dean's fight, because that's taking up substantially more plot and screentime than any of the Big Bads or external conflicts, even with them not talking most of the time!

I hope the upcoming episodes do get back into the monster plots- the MoC, the Angel War, Crowley and Abaddon. I think when we get moving on those lines again, we'll see more balanced discussion.
Jaytee
# Jaytee 2014-03-01 15:18
Hi Alice, I rarely post, well, anywhere, but I'm also finding myself fascinated with the story right now and looking for people to discuss with!

I think we're seeing a fixation on the brother issues in the fandom because (aside from what we all know, that the brothers are the emotional hook for the whole show) the mytharcs have moved fairly slowly and somewhat offscreen lately. Dean has the MoC that no one is talking about, no one knows where Crowley or Abaddon are or what they're doing, no one knows where Gadreel is or what he's doing, the new Angel thing may be interesting but may end up a rehash of previous angel stories, and no one knows what to make of it yet. There are several plotlines that are still pretty nebulous at the moment. In the last four episodes, I think only one of them (when Dean gets the MoC) really got into the other mytharcs. Aside from that, we had "Road Trip" which had to be brother-heavy of necessity, two non-mytharc episodes, and a nuke dropped on the brother relationship. Then nothing, for two weeks, which put fandom into a total tizzy and with little to talk about other than the relationship-nuke.

I think the PTB knew what they were doing, dropping that nuke just before the shorter hiatus so that it was all we talked about and we waited with baited breath for something to happen between Sam and Dean. "Captives," likewise, is mostly character driven, with Cas and the angel storyline as a B plot. So all we're thinking about is Sam and Dean's fight, because that's taking up substantially more plot and screentime than any of the Big Bads or external conflicts, even with them not talking most of the time!

I hope the upcoming episodes do get back into the monster plots- the MoC, the Angel War, Crowley and Abaddon. I think when we get moving on those lines again, we'll see more balanced discussion.
dashnjo
# dashnjo 2014-03-01 19:52
Quoting mary9930:
Quoting alice:
However, I haven't had a lot of time to drive direction for discussion either and I'm not sure if what else I could have done. I raised the issue on twitter and a few people responded by saying they don't care about the angels or any of the other stuff.


I care about angels. Someone please talk angels with me :sad: The brothers' issues are so polarizing sometimes I'm afraid to chime in.


I'll talk about the Cas and the angels with you! The brothers issues are so well argued, hashed out and blame placed with one or the other (not always) and i care about what's going on with the angels as well. There's more than enough Sam and Dean discussion and I've found it hard to discuss Cas and the angels!
dashnjo
# dashnjo 2014-03-01 19:52
Quote:
Quote:
However, I haven't had a lot of time to drive direction for discussion either and I'm not sure if what else I could have done. I raised the issue on twitter and a few people responded by saying they don't care about the angels or any of the other stuff.
I care about angels. Someone please talk angels with me :sad: The brothers' issues are so polarizing sometimes I'm afraid to chime in.
I'll talk about the Cas and the angels with you! The brothers issues are so well argued, hashed out and blame placed with one or the other (not always) and i care about what's going on with the angels as well. There's more than enough Sam and Dean discussion and I've found it hard to discuss Cas and the angels!
strawhair
# strawhair 2014-03-01 23:25
This was a very nice, thoughtful essay. (I'd say "essay" more than "recap", although it's probably a little of both.)

One thing that's struck me since Sam was restored to control of his body and started freezing out Dean is that this has been the most severe struggle they've been through since Bobby died. Bobby would have told both of them to grow the hell up and they, most likely, would have snapped to. Kevin tries to fulfill the same role here, and they know he's right, but he just doesn't have the same gravity.
strawhair
# strawhair 2014-03-01 23:25
This was a very nice, thoughtful essay. (I'd say "essay" more than "recap", although it's probably a little of both.)

One thing that's struck me since Sam was restored to control of his body and started freezing out Dean is that this has been the most severe struggle they've been through since Bobby died. Bobby would have told both of them to grow the hell up and they, most likely, would have snapped to. Kevin tries to fulfill the same role here, and they know he's right, but he just doesn't have the same gravity.
mary9930
# mary9930 2014-03-02 07:17
Quoting dashnjo:
I'll talk about the Cas and the angels with you! The brothers issues are so well argued, hashed out and blame placed with one or the other (not always) and i care about what's going on with the angels as well. There's more than enough Sam and Dean discussion and I've found it hard to discuss Cas and the angels!


Thank you! I rewatched the last episode and I'm feeling a little better about the angel who approached Cas at the end. Originally I was worried he was lost without Bartholomew and just wanted a strong leader. Now I think there's hope for a new faction of "Cas like" angels. Could Team Free be growing?????
mary9930
# mary9930 2014-03-02 07:17
Quote:
I'll talk about the Cas and the angels with you! The brothers issues are so well argued, hashed out and blame placed with one or the other (not always) and i care about what's going on with the angels as well. There's more than enough Sam and Dean discussion and I've found it hard to discuss Cas and the angels!
Thank you! I rewatched the last episode and I'm feeling a little better about the angel who approached Cas at the end. Originally I was worried he was lost without Bartholomew and just wanted a strong leader. Now I think there's hope for a new faction of "Cas like" angels. Could Team Free be growing?????
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-02 07:41
Quoting strawhair:
This was a very nice, thoughtful essay. (I'd say "essay" more than "recap", although it's probably a little of both.)

One thing that's struck me since Sam was restored to control of his body and started freezing out Dean is that this has been the most severe struggle they've been through since Bobby died. Bobby would have told both of them to grow the hell up and they, most likely, would have snapped to. Kevin tries to fulfill the same role here, and they know he's right, but he just doesn't have the same gravity.


that's a presumption i don't fully agree with. i can go even further with my own presumption to be honest. if bobby were alive this may never have even happened. how did sam get to this moment?
well he thought dean died in s8. everyone he loved had been killed by the family business. he was utterly all alone. he imploded and ran from his life as a hunter because he couldnt do it anymore. this led to the events that followed including his guilt when he found out dean was not dead but in purgatory. dean's anger at sam just fueled sam's belief that he once again failed his brother. he was a disappointment yet again. he once again commited his greatest sin, letting dean down. so to atone for that sam took over the trials. he's going to give his brother what he needs. the gates of hell closed. revenge for their mother. peace. i can say that had bobby been alive then sam might never have believed dean dead. bobby would've been able to reach sam, get him out of his emotional funk and reach him through a logical approach. sam, we don't know for sure dean is dead. crowley could be messing with you. or if bobby thought too that dean were dead, sam would've had his support. dean's arrival and his anger at his brother might have been cut off by bobby at the get go because he too would've been in the same emotional broken boat as sam.

bobby has also been known in the past to support sam. when dean was letting pride and stubborness get in his way, bobby called him out on it. bobby also was the one who believed in sam in s5. he was the one who convinced dean that if anyone could send lucifer in the pit it was sam.

given bobby knows the boys' personal history, as well as being the victim of possession as well as the possessor himself, i'm not quick to agree with your assessment that bobby would be all just get over it already. bobby knows both boys and he was pissed when dean made the demon deal back in s2. i don't think bobby would be team dean on this one. i think bobby would rip dean a good one. if anything, bobby would be the one to get dean to see where he went wrong and if i make any presumption at all, it would be that if bobby were alive, dean would've apologized to his brother by now.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-02 07:41
Quote:
This was a very nice, thoughtful essay. (I'd say "essay" more than "recap", although it's probably a little of both.)

One thing that's struck me since Sam was restored to control of his body and started freezing out Dean is that this has been the most severe struggle they've been through since Bobby died. Bobby would have told both of them to grow the hell up and they, most likely, would have snapped to. Kevin tries to fulfill the same role here, and they know he's right, but he just doesn't have the same gravity.
that's a presumption i don't fully agree with. i can go even further with my own presumption to be honest. if bobby were alive this may never have even happened. how did sam get to this moment?
well he thought dean died in s8. everyone he loved had been killed by the family business. he was utterly all alone. he imploded and ran from his life as a hunter because he couldnt do it anymore. this led to the events that followed including his guilt when he found out dean was not dead but in purgatory. dean's anger at sam just fueled sam's belief that he once again failed his brother. he was a disappointment yet again. he once again commited his greatest sin, letting dean down. so to atone for that sam took over the trials. he's going to give his brother what he needs. the gates of hell closed. revenge for their mother. peace. i can say that had bobby been alive then sam might never have believed dean dead. bobby would've been able to reach sam, get him out of his emotional funk and reach him through a logical approach. sam, we don't know for sure dean is dead. crowley could be messing with you. or if bobby thought too that dean were dead, sam would've had his support. dean's arrival and his anger at his brother might have been cut off by bobby at the get go because he too would've been in the same emotional broken boat as sam.

bobby has also been known in the past to support sam. when dean was letting pride and stubborness get in his way, bobby called him out on it. bobby also was the one who believed in sam in s5. he was the one who convinced dean that if anyone could send lucifer in the pit it was sam.

given bobby knows the boys' personal history, as well as being the victim of possession as well as the possessor himself, i'm not quick to agree with your assessment that bobby would be all just get over it already. bobby knows both boys and he was pissed when dean made the demon deal back in s2. i don't think bobby would be team dean on this one. i think bobby would rip dean a good one. if anything, bobby would be the one to get dean to see where he went wrong and if i make any presumption at all, it would be that if bobby were alive, dean would've apologized to his brother by now.
dashnjo
# dashnjo 2014-03-02 10:57
"Thank you! I rewatched the last episode and I'm feeling a little better about the angel who approached Cas at the end. Originally I was worried he was lost without Bartholomew and just wanted a strong leader. Now I think there's hope for a new faction of "Cas like" angels. Could Team Free be growing?????"

He was in the room when Bart tried to get Cas to kill the penitent so I think he'll be okay. All the angels can't be, as Dean says, dicks so some have to be more like Cas. I would imagine that after the fall many were list and a strong leader like Bart would be something they would gravitate towards but Cas made a choice and stood up against Bart's methods and that had to make an impression.

I will only worry later when his following starts to grow that maybe Malachi or Metatron will get a mole in ... maybe I've seen too many spy movies! If Malachi is even a real threat anymore ...
dashnjo
# dashnjo 2014-03-02 10:57
"Thank you! I rewatched the last episode and I'm feeling a little better about the angel who approached Cas at the end. Originally I was worried he was lost without Bartholomew and just wanted a strong leader. Now I think there's hope for a new faction of "Cas like" angels. Could Team Free be growing?????"

He was in the room when Bart tried to get Cas to kill the penitent so I think he'll be okay. All the angels can't be, as Dean says, dicks so some have to be more like Cas. I would imagine that after the fall many were list and a strong leader like Bart would be something they would gravitate towards but Cas made a choice and stood up against Bart's methods and that had to make an impression.

I will only worry later when his following starts to grow that maybe Malachi or Metatron will get a mole in ... maybe I've seen too many spy movies! If Malachi is even a real threat anymore ...
CastielsCat
# CastielsCat 2014-03-02 23:01
Here's a novel thought. The show loves its mirroring.
Dean accepted the mark of Cain without asking questions. All he cared about was being able to kill Abaddon. When the downside reveals itself Dean won't be blaming anyone else but himself.
Sam accepted Gadreel's help whilst he wore Dean's face. He chose to live. He didn't ask any questions. He blames Dean for everything but Sam said yes to the angel because he wanted to live if there was a chance.

He can be mad that Dean lied to him to protect him after the fact just like Dean was mad about all of the
many times Sam lied to cover up for himself. Sam said yes and didn't ask any questions just like Dean and the mark of Cain.

Bobby would do exactly like Kevin I think. He chewed Sam out for abandoning Dean in Purgatory in Taxi Driver and asked for them to find a way to resurrect him so he could continue to fight the good fight. In the Veterans episode he admits that Dean is his favorite. He will be mad about the mark but not that Dean figured out how to save Sam.
CastielsCat
# CastielsCat 2014-03-02 23:01
Here's a novel thought. The show loves its mirroring.
Dean accepted the mark of Cain without asking questions. All he cared about was being able to kill Abaddon. When the downside reveals itself Dean won't be blaming anyone else but himself.
Sam accepted Gadreel's help whilst he wore Dean's face. He chose to live. He didn't ask any questions. He blames Dean for everything but Sam said yes to the angel because he wanted to live if there was a chance.

He can be mad that Dean lied to him to protect him after the fact just like Dean was mad about all of the
many times Sam lied to cover up for himself. Sam said yes and didn't ask any questions just like Dean and the mark of Cain.

Bobby would do exactly like Kevin I think. He chewed Sam out for abandoning Dean in Purgatory in Taxi Driver and asked for them to find a way to resurrect him so he could continue to fight the good fight. In the Veterans episode he admits that Dean is his favorite. He will be mad about the mark but not that Dean figured out how to save Sam.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-02 23:37
Quoting CastielsCat:
Here's a novel thought. The show loves its mirroring.
Dean accepted the mark of Cain without asking questions. All he cared about was being able to kill Abaddon. When the downside reveals itself Dean won't be blaming anyone else but himself.
Sam accepted Gadreel's help whilst he wore Dean's face. He chose to live. He didn't ask any questions. He blames Dean for everything but Sam said yes to the angel because he wanted to live if there was a chance.

He can be mad that Dean lied to him to protect him after the fact just like Dean was mad about all of the
many times Sam lied to cover up for himself. Sam said yes and didn't ask any questions just like Dean and the mark of Cain.

Bobby would do exactly like Kevin I think. He chewed Sam out for abandoning Dean in Purgatory in Taxi Driver and asked for them to find a way to resurrect him so he could continue to fight the good fight. In the Veterans episode he admits that Dean is his favorite. He will be mad about the mark but not that Dean figured out how to save Sam.


Here's another thought. Dean accepted the MOC without question, just like Sam accepted the demon blood without question. The MOC is known to belong to someone who committed fratricide. Dean is aware that it come from a demon, in fact from the First Knight of Hell. Yet he takes it looking for power and revenge.

Bobby might support Dean, although I do like to think that Bobby wouldn't be thrilled that Dean tricked Sam into being possessed by yet another angel and actively made sure he was possessed by a demon. I mean Bobby was possessed by a demon and I didn't get the feeling he liked it that much. He may like Dean more, but having been possessed he might just realize that Dean was totally and completely wrong to override Sam's bodily autonomy. Perhaps he might even tell Dean to start with an apology.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-02 23:37
Quote:
Here's a novel thought. The show loves its mirroring.
Dean accepted the mark of Cain without asking questions. All he cared about was being able to kill Abaddon. When the downside reveals itself Dean won't be blaming anyone else but himself.
Sam accepted Gadreel's help whilst he wore Dean's face. He chose to live. He didn't ask any questions. He blames Dean for everything but Sam said yes to the angel because he wanted to live if there was a chance.

He can be mad that Dean lied to him to protect him after the fact just like Dean was mad about all of the
many times Sam lied to cover up for himself. Sam said yes and didn't ask any questions just like Dean and the mark of Cain.

Bobby would do exactly like Kevin I think. He chewed Sam out for abandoning Dean in Purgatory in Taxi Driver and asked for them to find a way to resurrect him so he could continue to fight the good fight. In the Veterans episode he admits that Dean is his favorite. He will be mad about the mark but not that Dean figured out how to save Sam.
Here's another thought. Dean accepted the MOC without question, just like Sam accepted the demon blood without question. The MOC is known to belong to someone who committed fratricide. Dean is aware that it come from a demon, in fact from the First Knight of Hell. Yet he takes it looking for power and revenge.

Bobby might support Dean, although I do like to think that Bobby wouldn't be thrilled that Dean tricked Sam into being possessed by yet another angel and actively made sure he was possessed by a demon. I mean Bobby was possessed by a demon and I didn't get the feeling he liked it that much. He may like Dean more, but having been possessed he might just realize that Dean was totally and completely wrong to override Sam's bodily autonomy. Perhaps he might even tell Dean to start with an apology.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-03-03 02:27
Quoting CastielsCat:
Here's a novel thought. The show loves its mirroring.
Dean accepted the mark of Cain without asking questions. All he cared about was being able to kill Abaddon. When the downside reveals itself Dean won't be blaming anyone else but himself.
Sam accepted Gadreel's help whilst he wore Dean's face. He chose to live. He didn't ask any questions. He blames Dean for everything but Sam said yes to the angel because he wanted to live if there was a chance.

He can be mad that Dean lied to him to protect him after the fact just like Dean was mad about all of the
many times Sam lied to cover up for himself. Sam said yes and didn't ask any questions just like Dean and the mark of Cain.

Bobby would do exactly like Kevin I think. He chewed Sam out for abandoning Dean in Purgatory in Taxi Driver and asked for them to find a way to resurrect him so he could continue to fight the good fight. In the Veterans episode he admits that Dean is his favorite. He will be mad about the mark but not that Dean figured out how to save Sam.

People need to stop confusing that 'yes' with a open invitation to possession.

If Sam had said yes fully aware of what it meant then I could understand the attempts to put the possession on Sam but he did not neither do I get this 'he did not ask about the plan' angle that is put forward Sam was not giving anybody permission to possess him .Gadreel knew the possession was not genuine and so did Dean.

As for Bobby I think he would not believe that Dean has carte blanche to save Sam how ever he liked , no matter how much he was his favourite .
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-03-03 02:27
Quote:
Here's a novel thought. The show loves its mirroring.
Dean accepted the mark of Cain without asking questions. All he cared about was being able to kill Abaddon. When the downside reveals itself Dean won't be blaming anyone else but himself.
Sam accepted Gadreel's help whilst he wore Dean's face. He chose to live. He didn't ask any questions. He blames Dean for everything but Sam said yes to the angel because he wanted to live if there was a chance.

He can be mad that Dean lied to him to protect him after the fact just like Dean was mad about all of the
many times Sam lied to cover up for himself. Sam said yes and didn't ask any questions just like Dean and the mark of Cain.

Bobby would do exactly like Kevin I think. He chewed Sam out for abandoning Dean in Purgatory in Taxi Driver and asked for them to find a way to resurrect him so he could continue to fight the good fight. In the Veterans episode he admits that Dean is his favorite. He will be mad about the mark but not that Dean figured out how to save Sam.
People need to stop confusing that 'yes' with a open invitation to possession.

If Sam had said yes fully aware of what it meant then I could understand the attempts to put the possession on Sam but he did not neither do I get this 'he did not ask about the plan' angle that is put forward Sam was not giving anybody permission to possess him .Gadreel knew the possession was not genuine and so did Dean.

As for Bobby I think he would not believe that Dean has carte blanche to save Sam how ever he liked , no matter how much he was his favourite .
CastielsCat
# CastielsCat 2014-03-03 02:36
An angel needs permission from the vessel to inhabit it.Therefore Sam had to have said yes to Gadreel. If hSam hadn't agreed then Gadreel would have been unable to possess him. This is canon.

Dean withheld the truth of the situation from Sam because Gadreel warned him that Sam would die if he retracted his permission and cast Gadreel out. One can think Dean was wrong to withhold information. However Dean didn't rape Sam or trick him into possession. GADREEL asked and SAM said yes.

Please note that when Gadreel remembered Tahmoh Tahmoh said Yes. This was to reiterate the process, the CANON, so that folks would understand that Sam had to have said yes.
CastielsCat
# CastielsCat 2014-03-03 02:36
An angel needs permission from the vessel to inhabit it.Therefore Sam had to have said yes to Gadreel. If hSam hadn't agreed then Gadreel would have been unable to possess him. This is canon.

Dean withheld the truth of the situation from Sam because Gadreel warned him that Sam would die if he retracted his permission and cast Gadreel out. One can think Dean was wrong to withhold information. However Dean didn't rape Sam or trick him into possession. GADREEL asked and SAM said yes.

Please note that when Gadreel remembered Tahmoh Tahmoh said Yes. This was to reiterate the process, the CANON, so that folks would understand that Sam had to have said yes.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-03-03 02:44
@58

I don't want an apology from Dean. Unless apologies are followed up by action they're just words, so they're worthless. As Dean said, he lies for a living. Dean needs to change his behaviour, and how he thinks of his brother, not throw out another meaningless apology.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-03-03 02:44
@58

I don't want an apology from Dean. Unless apologies are followed up by action they're just words, so they're worthless. As Dean said, he lies for a living. Dean needs to change his behaviour, and how he thinks of his brother, not throw out another meaningless apology.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-03-03 02:47
Quoting CastielsCat:
An angel needs permission from the vessel to inhabit it.Therefore Sam had to have said yes to Gadreel. If hSam hadn't agreed then Gadreel would have been unable to possess him. This is canon.

Dean withheld the truth of the situation from Sam because Gadreel warned him that Sam would die if he retracted his permission and cast Gadreel out. One can think Dean was wrong to withhold information. However Dean didn't rape Sam or trick him into possession. GADREEL asked and SAM said yes.

Please note that when Gadreel remembered Tahmoh Tahmoh said Yes. This was to reiterate the process, the CANON, so that folks would understand that Sam had to have said yes.

Sam was tricked Castiels Cat that in no way shape or form was a honest possession . Nobody is disbuting Sam said yes but it was the way the yes was achieved that makes it dishonest .It had to be a trick because Dean knew full well Sam would not say 'yes' any other way .
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-03-03 02:47
Quote:
An angel needs permission from the vessel to inhabit it.Therefore Sam had to have said yes to Gadreel. If hSam hadn't agreed then Gadreel would have been unable to possess him. This is canon.

Dean withheld the truth of the situation from Sam because Gadreel warned him that Sam would die if he retracted his permission and cast Gadreel out. One can think Dean was wrong to withhold information. However Dean didn't rape Sam or trick him into possession. GADREEL asked and SAM said yes.

Please note that when Gadreel remembered Tahmoh Tahmoh said Yes. This was to reiterate the process, the CANON, so that folks would understand that Sam had to have said yes.
Sam was tricked Castiels Cat that in no way shape or form was a honest possession . Nobody is disbuting Sam said yes but it was the way the yes was achieved that makes it dishonest .It had to be a trick because Dean knew full well Sam would not say 'yes' any other way .
CastielsCat
# CastielsCat 2014-03-03 02:48
Pardon me for thinking that The W inchesters and any hunters worth their salt lie for a living. Sam's entire rant in the Purge was full of lies.
CastielsCat
# CastielsCat 2014-03-03 02:48
Pardon me for thinking that The W inchesters and any hunters worth their salt lie for a living. Sam's entire rant in the Purge was full of lies.
CastielsCat
# CastielsCat 2014-03-03 02:54
Sharon. Gadreel tricked Sam by pretending to be Dean and saying that he had a plan. SAM said yes to Gadreel. It was more honest than Lucifer's possession of Nick or the crap Zachariah put Dean through.

I believe you all have twisted things so that you can hate on Dean. He prayed to an angel to save his brother's life. He okayed the Angel's plan to save Sam. Gadreel secured permission from Sam. Dean withheld information to keep Sam safe.

Should Dean have withheld information and if so, for how long? That is the only point up for debate in my book.
CastielsCat
# CastielsCat 2014-03-03 02:54
Sharon. Gadreel tricked Sam by pretending to be Dean and saying that he had a plan. SAM said yes to Gadreel. It was more honest than Lucifer's possession of Nick or the crap Zachariah put Dean through.

I believe you all have twisted things so that you can hate on Dean. He prayed to an angel to save his brother's life. He okayed the Angel's plan to save Sam. Gadreel secured permission from Sam. Dean withheld information to keep Sam safe.

Should Dean have withheld information and if so, for how long? That is the only point up for debate in my book.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-03-03 03:11
Quoting CastielsCat:
Sharon. Gadreel tricked Sam by pretending to be Dean and saying that he had a plan. SAM said yes to Gadreel. It was more honest than Lucifer's possession of Nick or the crap Zachariah put Dean through.

I believe you all have twisted things so that you can hate on Dean. He prayed to an angel to save his brother's life. He okayed the Angel's plan to save Sam. Gadreel secured permission from Sam. Dean withheld information to keep Sam safe.

Should Dean have withheld information and if so, for how long? That is the only point up for debate in my book.

I have twisted things to hate on Dean ? really .

And here is me thinking I was stating a opinion. We obviously see that 'yes' in two completely different lights. And as I do not see a reason to whitewash Dean in this particular instance then with respect there is little point in hashing out a point we are clearly at two different ends of.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-03-03 03:11
Quote:
Sharon. Gadreel tricked Sam by pretending to be Dean and saying that he had a plan. SAM said yes to Gadreel. It was more honest than Lucifer's possession of Nick or the crap Zachariah put Dean through.

I believe you all have twisted things so that you can hate on Dean. He prayed to an angel to save his brother's life. He okayed the Angel's plan to save Sam. Gadreel secured permission from Sam. Dean withheld information to keep Sam safe.

Should Dean have withheld information and if so, for how long? That is the only point up for debate in my book.
I have twisted things to hate on Dean ? really .

And here is me thinking I was stating a opinion. We obviously see that 'yes' in two completely different lights. And as I do not see a reason to whitewash Dean in this particular instance then with respect there is little point in hashing out a point we are clearly at two different ends of.
CastielsCat
# CastielsCat 2014-03-03 03:17
I am referring to this idea that Dean stole Sam's agency. He didn't. GADREEL asked permission and Sam said Yes. That is the canon regarding the possession.

Dean knew what had happened and didn't tell Sam immediately. That is also canon.

Anything else ... I see as twisting to hate on Dean because It's not canon.

I am sorry if this insulted you.
CastielsCat
# CastielsCat 2014-03-03 03:17
I am referring to this idea that Dean stole Sam's agency. He didn't. GADREEL asked permission and Sam said Yes. That is the canon regarding the possession.

Dean knew what had happened and didn't tell Sam immediately. That is also canon.

Anything else ... I see as twisting to hate on Dean because It's not canon.

I am sorry if this insulted you.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-03 08:33
Quoting Tim the Enchanter:
@58

I don't want an apology from Dean. Unless apologies are followed up by action they're just words, so they're worthless. As Dean said, he lies for a living. Dean needs to change his behaviour, and how he thinks of his brother, not throw out another meaningless apology.


Oh, I totally agree that Dean has to show that he has changed by his actions. I meant that even before that he has to acknowledge that he did something wrong and let Sam know that he knows he did something wrong. Then he has to start treating Sam like a human being who has the right to control his own body.

@#60 Quote:
Please note that when Gadreel remembered Tahmoh Tahmoh said Yes. This was to reiterate the process, the CANON, so that folks would understand that Sam had to have said yes.
And please note that when Dean told Cas to get possess Sam, Cas had to remind Dean that No, DEAN does not have the right to consent for SAM. I think that scene was a way of pointing out that Dean, in his own mind, has blurred the lines of what he can do with and to Sam, because Dean thinks he has as much, if not more right to control Sam's body than Sam does. It's subtle, but it's there, IMHO.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-03 08:33
Quote:
@58

I don't want an apology from Dean. Unless apologies are followed up by action they're just words, so they're worthless. As Dean said, he lies for a living. Dean needs to change his behaviour, and how he thinks of his brother, not throw out another meaningless apology.
Oh, I totally agree that Dean has to show that he has changed by his actions. I meant that even before that he has to acknowledge that he did something wrong and let Sam know that he knows he did something wrong. Then he has to start treating Sam like a human being who has the right to control his own body.

@#60 Quote:
Please note that when Gadreel remembered Tahmoh Tahmoh said Yes. This was to reiterate the process, the CANON, so that folks would understand that Sam had to have said yes.
And please note that when Dean told Cas to get possess Sam, Cas had to remind Dean that No, DEAN does not have the right to consent for SAM. I think that scene was a way of pointing out that Dean, in his own mind, has blurred the lines of what he can do with and to Sam, because Dean thinks he has as much, if not more right to control Sam's body than Sam does. It's subtle, but it's there, IMHO.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-03-03 11:43
Quoting CastielsCat:
I am referring to this idea that Dean stole Sam's agency. He didn't. GADREEL asked permission and Sam said Yes. That is the canon regarding the possession.

Dean knew what had happened and didn't tell Sam immediately. That is also canon.

Anything else ... I see as twisting to hate on Dean because It's not canon.

I am sorry if this insulted you.


I have to disagree with this. He didn't say yes to Gadreel, he said yes to his brother. Since Dean gave Gadreel permission to use his body to talk to Sam, it was not an informed consent.
I'm sorry, but Dean was wrong to take away Sam's informed consent on this issue.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-03-03 11:43
Quote:
I am referring to this idea that Dean stole Sam's agency. He didn't. GADREEL asked permission and Sam said Yes. That is the canon regarding the possession.

Dean knew what had happened and didn't tell Sam immediately. That is also canon.

Anything else ... I see as twisting to hate on Dean because It's not canon.

I am sorry if this insulted you.
I have to disagree with this. He didn't say yes to Gadreel, he said yes to his brother. Since Dean gave Gadreel permission to use his body to talk to Sam, it was not an informed consent.
I'm sorry, but Dean was wrong to take away Sam's informed consent on this issue.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-03 12:10
We all know why Dean did what he did. He knew that Sam would never say yes to an angel that is why Gadreel said he would say yes to Dean. They both knew they would have to trick Sam in order to save him. I think that Dean had every intention of telling Sam straight away but Gadreel was already manipulating Dean by holding Sam hostage. I really think that Dean wanted to tell Sam every step of the way and he knew he was getting in deeper and deeper. He was getting more and more frustrated with Gadreel as the episodes went on. I think he wanted so badly for it all to turn out ok that he went along with the plan until it all blew up in his face. His confession to Sam/Gad probably played out in his head a million times. He figured he would get punched but then because no harm no foul Sam would realize that the angel had done a good thing. Sam would be alive and all would be forgiven. Of course in true Winchester fashion nothing ever turns out for the good when a deal is made. So now everyone is paying the price including Dean. The resolution to all of this I think is going to be the big cliffhanger for the season. What will these guys do to save each other. How far will they go now that the trust is gone. Sam's trust in Dean and Dean's trust in himself.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-03 12:10
We all know why Dean did what he did. He knew that Sam would never say yes to an angel that is why Gadreel said he would say yes to Dean. They both knew they would have to trick Sam in order to save him. I think that Dean had every intention of telling Sam straight away but Gadreel was already manipulating Dean by holding Sam hostage. I really think that Dean wanted to tell Sam every step of the way and he knew he was getting in deeper and deeper. He was getting more and more frustrated with Gadreel as the episodes went on. I think he wanted so badly for it all to turn out ok that he went along with the plan until it all blew up in his face. His confession to Sam/Gad probably played out in his head a million times. He figured he would get punched but then because no harm no foul Sam would realize that the angel had done a good thing. Sam would be alive and all would be forgiven. Of course in true Winchester fashion nothing ever turns out for the good when a deal is made. So now everyone is paying the price including Dean. The resolution to all of this I think is going to be the big cliffhanger for the season. What will these guys do to save each other. How far will they go now that the trust is gone. Sam's trust in Dean and Dean's trust in himself.
Jaytee
# Jaytee 2014-03-03 21:40
@CastielsCat

(My apologies if this comes out weird, the quote function seems wonky on my end).

Sam did not know he was talking to Gadreel (hell, Dean didn't know he was talking to Gadreel), and he did not know about the possession. Sam said "Yes" to "Dean's Plan." Since "Dean's Plan" was in fact for Gadreel to possess Sam, it was close enough for rock and roll, but not informed consent on Sam's part. Gadreel could make a good lawyer.

As to why Sam didn't ask for details? There's the rub, isn't it? Sam didn't ask because he trusted Dean and never imagined that he'd trick him into doing something so against either of their ethics (I doubt Dean would sincerely have wanted Sam do "do the same" for him, and I imagine something similar is going to come up at some point....) As hunters, I have to think "Go along with this, I'll explain later" is a common occurrence between them, and there has to be a certain level of trust that "this" isn't something the unknowing brother would be patently against doing.

A poster on another site also pointed out that the "There ain't no me if there ain't no you" line must have been an incredible emotional button for Sam (look at his face when he hears "Dean" saying that). Was that actually Dean, or Gadreel as Dean? If the latter, it is an incredible bit of emotional manipulation on Gadreel's part.

I do not and have never hated Dean, but I am open to discussing his and other characters' flaws and mishaps (I would like to say that I'm just as open to examining Sam's flaws, but I'm still seeing Sam completely slammed in some corners of fandom for daring to be upset about this, so I tend to be defensive of the poor guy). I'm not sure if it was your intention or not, but the tone of your post can be interpreted as "If you don't agree with me it means you hate Dean." That's going to put people on the defensive, and make it harder to have a good conversation about what it, after all, a common interest among all of us!
Jaytee
# Jaytee 2014-03-03 21:40
@CastielsCat

(My apologies if this comes out weird, the quote function seems wonky on my end).

Sam did not know he was talking to Gadreel (hell, Dean didn't know he was talking to Gadreel), and he did not know about the possession. Sam said "Yes" to "Dean's Plan." Since "Dean's Plan" was in fact for Gadreel to possess Sam, it was close enough for rock and roll, but not informed consent on Sam's part. Gadreel could make a good lawyer.

As to why Sam didn't ask for details? There's the rub, isn't it? Sam didn't ask because he trusted Dean and never imagined that he'd trick him into doing something so against either of their ethics (I doubt Dean would sincerely have wanted Sam do "do the same" for him, and I imagine something similar is going to come up at some point....) As hunters, I have to think "Go along with this, I'll explain later" is a common occurrence between them, and there has to be a certain level of trust that "this" isn't something the unknowing brother would be patently against doing.

A poster on another site also pointed out that the "There ain't no me if there ain't no you" line must have been an incredible emotional button for Sam (look at his face when he hears "Dean" saying that). Was that actually Dean, or Gadreel as Dean? If the latter, it is an incredible bit of emotional manipulation on Gadreel's part.

I do not and have never hated Dean, but I am open to discussing his and other characters' flaws and mishaps (I would like to say that I'm just as open to examining Sam's flaws, but I'm still seeing Sam completely slammed in some corners of fandom for daring to be upset about this, so I tend to be defensive of the poor guy). I'm not sure if it was your intention or not, but the tone of your post can be interpreted as "If you don't agree with me it means you hate Dean." That's going to put people on the defensive, and make it harder to have a good conversation about what it, after all, a common interest among all of us!
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-03 23:03
Quoting CastielsCat:
Sharon. Gadreel tricked Sam by pretending to be Dean and saying that he had a plan. SAM said yes to Gadreel. It was more honest than Lucifer's possession of Nick or the crap Zachariah put Dean through.

I believe you all have twisted things so that you can hate on Dean. He prayed to an angel to save his brother's life. He okayed the Angel's plan to save Sam. Gadreel secured permission from Sam. Dean withheld information to keep Sam safe.

Should Dean have withheld information and if so, for how long? That is the only point up for debate in my book.

No, Castiel's cat,Dean tricked Sam.This is a fact which Dean himself admitted to.So while you say we are trying to "Hate" Dean ..You want Dean to shirk from whatever responsibility he had no matter what.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-03 23:03
Quote:
Sharon. Gadreel tricked Sam by pretending to be Dean and saying that he had a plan. SAM said yes to Gadreel. It was more honest than Lucifer's possession of Nick or the crap Zachariah put Dean through.

I believe you all have twisted things so that you can hate on Dean. He prayed to an angel to save his brother's life. He okayed the Angel's plan to save Sam. Gadreel secured permission from Sam. Dean withheld information to keep Sam safe.

Should Dean have withheld information and if so, for how long? That is the only point up for debate in my book.
No, Castiel's cat,Dean tricked Sam.This is a fact which Dean himself admitted to.So while you say we are trying to "Hate" Dean ..You want Dean to shirk from whatever responsibility he had no matter what.
CastielsCat
# CastielsCat 2014-03-03 23:21
We all know Dean takes blame for more than he is responsible for. The actor's have indicated that Dean was not talking to Sam, Gadreel was. I thought that this is pretty clear from the way it was shot. Sam had to give permission to Gadreel not Dean. Dean cannot give permission for a possession as indicated by the later scene with Cas. The agreement was between Sam and Gadreel for possession. This is the canon. Perhaps . The fact that Sam is twisting things to hurt Dean is why the character is not portrayed as sympathetic . At any rate I predict the end of this arc will be Sam's equivalent of showing up at Stull because he luvs Dean no matter what.

Percysowner, the MoC is not a mirror to Sam's demon blood drinking. The mirror for that is Crowley's addiction to human blood because of the way it makes him feeling. The mirror for Sam last season was Benny, another blood drinker. Gosh what will Sam do if Dean ends up besties with Crowley! LOL. But seriously Dean is not jonsing, suckling demons or sexing them up. He wasn't tricked into this. He asked for it eyes wide open.

The thing is, although the hero through and through, dean has always Bern dirty and dark. Last season saw Dean split between caretaker and stone cold killer. I think the mark plus Sam's attitude will shift him decidedly towards killer. Having seen Purgatory Dean, dean with the mark will be a force to be reckoned with. Dean with no mercy and metaphorically no humanity. I don't see Dean becoming a demon. He has darkness within and I expect this arc to explore that. Will he kill Sam or want to? Probably. The show has been hinting to that since John died and hitting it heavy this year.
dean's mirror this year is Cain. He got the mark because he was worthy already. The cost burden will be on dean... immortality?
Last season Dean's mirror was Metatron. Dean planned revenge on demons but backed out at the last minute because he valued Sam's life more than his revenge. METATRON obviously sacrificed Cas.

There's a funny symmetry to Dean being desperate to save Sam in the premier and desperate to kill him by the finale.
CastielsCat
# CastielsCat 2014-03-03 23:21
We all know Dean takes blame for more than he is responsible for. The actor's have indicated that Dean was not talking to Sam, Gadreel was. I thought that this is pretty clear from the way it was shot. Sam had to give permission to Gadreel not Dean. Dean cannot give permission for a possession as indicated by the later scene with Cas. The agreement was between Sam and Gadreel for possession. This is the canon. Perhaps . The fact that Sam is twisting things to hurt Dean is why the character is not portrayed as sympathetic . At any rate I predict the end of this arc will be Sam's equivalent of showing up at Stull because he luvs Dean no matter what.

Percysowner, the MoC is not a mirror to Sam's demon blood drinking. The mirror for that is Crowley's addiction to human blood because of the way it makes him feeling. The mirror for Sam last season was Benny, another blood drinker. Gosh what will Sam do if Dean ends up besties with Crowley! LOL. But seriously Dean is not jonsing, suckling demons or sexing them up. He wasn't tricked into this. He asked for it eyes wide open.

The thing is, although the hero through and through, dean has always Bern dirty and dark. Last season saw Dean split between caretaker and stone cold killer. I think the mark plus Sam's attitude will shift him decidedly towards killer. Having seen Purgatory Dean, dean with the mark will be a force to be reckoned with. Dean with no mercy and metaphorically no humanity. I don't see Dean becoming a demon. He has darkness within and I expect this arc to explore that. Will he kill Sam or want to? Probably. The show has been hinting to that since John died and hitting it heavy this year.
dean's mirror this year is Cain. He got the mark because he was worthy already. The cost burden will be on dean... immortality?
Last season Dean's mirror was Metatron. Dean planned revenge on demons but backed out at the last minute because he valued Sam's life more than his revenge. METATRON obviously sacrificed Cas.

There's a funny symmetry to Dean being desperate to save Sam in the premier and desperate to kill him by the finale.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-04 01:55
Quote:
We all know Dean takes blame for more than he is responsible for. The actor's have indicated that Dean was not talking to Sam, Gadreel was.
Dean gets more credit than is his so it balances out.As for this time ,i.e in s09 Dean would not be responsible for it if he was not complicit in the deception and canon says he was.Stop saying we are twisting things or Sam when it is clear it is you who is twisting things.Quote:
Sam had to give permission to Gadreel not Dean.
Which would not have been possible with out the concerted efforts of unholy alliance of Gadreel and Dean.Quote:
The fact that Sam is twisting things to hurt Dean is why the character is not portrayed as sympathetic .
Or maybe because we have lots of insight into Dean and not a episode focusing on issues is the case.I find Sam sympathetic and Dean without an apology irredeemable.He is angry so was Dean in season 4 and 5 but in both cases we were privy to Dean's opinions,motivations and his manpain from the beginning.Quote:
the MoC is not a mirror to Sam's demon blood drinking.
No it is not. Dean did not need a Ruby for that.Quote:
Gosh what will Sam do if Dean ends up besties with Crowley! LOL.
I think he said he already is besties.Quote:
I think the mark plus Sam's attitude will shift him decidedly towards killer.
Please atop shifting Blame on other people and things.Quote:
There's a funny symmetry to Dean being desperate to save Sam in the premier and desperate to kill him by the finale.
I hope he will be desperate and understands how damaging his decisions are to Sam.Maybe the show will tell us being Dean's brother (the Abel to Dean's Cain) is damaging to Sam and validate Sam's opinions.But I have high hopes on Sam this season..He is not giving Dean an easy out like he has given in earlier seasons.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-04 01:55
Quote:
We all know Dean takes blame for more than he is responsible for. The actor's have indicated that Dean was not talking to Sam, Gadreel was.
Dean gets more credit than is his so it balances out.As for this time ,i.e in s09 Dean would not be responsible for it if he was not complicit in the deception and canon says he was.Stop saying we are twisting things or Sam when it is clear it is you who is twisting things.Quote:
Sam had to give permission to Gadreel not Dean.
Which would not have been possible with out the concerted efforts of unholy alliance of Gadreel and Dean.Quote:
The fact that Sam is twisting things to hurt Dean is why the character is not portrayed as sympathetic .
Or maybe because we have lots of insight into Dean and not a episode focusing on issues is the case.I find Sam sympathetic and Dean without an apology irredeemable.He is angry so was Dean in season 4 and 5 but in both cases we were privy to Dean's opinions,motivations and his manpain from the beginning.Quote:
the MoC is not a mirror to Sam's demon blood drinking.
No it is not. Dean did not need a Ruby for that.Quote:
Gosh what will Sam do if Dean ends up besties with Crowley! LOL.
I think he said he already is besties.Quote:
I think the mark plus Sam's attitude will shift him decidedly towards killer.
Please atop shifting Blame on other people and things.Quote:
There's a funny symmetry to Dean being desperate to save Sam in the premier and desperate to kill him by the finale.
I hope he will be desperate and understands how damaging his decisions are to Sam.Maybe the show will tell us being Dean's brother (the Abel to Dean's Cain) is damaging to Sam and validate Sam's opinions.But I have high hopes on Sam this season..He is not giving Dean an easy out like he has given in earlier seasons.
CastielsCat
# CastielsCat 2014-03-04 02:22
In Defending your life we see that Dean blames himself for Jo's death. He didn't release Lucifer nor did he force her to come on the mission. Yet he feels extraordinary guilt.

I am not twisting things. I am citing things exactly as they were presented on the show. Tahmoh said yes to Gadreell as did Sam. Sam had to have said yes to
Gadreell. Was Gadreel pretending to be Dean. Yes. Do
angels do what they need to to secure possession? Yes. End of story. This Is the established angel canon. Dean didn't hold a gun to his head or tell Sam he would leave him forever unless he said yes, or tell him that they would no longer be brothers unless he said yes.
Sam said yes because he wanted to live. And he quit
the trials because he wanted to live (but only if Dean promised sam was the most important thing ever).

Should Dean have told Sam what he knew earlier? Hard
to say. Sam might have died. GADREEL threatened to
leave with Sam if Dean said anything. I guess Dean was between a rock and a hard place which happens a lot to people who care about things other than themselves.

I really don't think Sam's POV is the problem. He shows us his POV all of the time. For most people he's no longer a very sympathetic character. He appears to blame Dean for everything and does not accept responsibility for his own life choices. He didn't react to Daisy Duke hunter reminding him that people died because of his choices. What would Jodie Mills do if she knew? People died because he freed Lucifer and people died when he took a year off. Kevin could have died any time during that year and he chooses now to be sorry because he thinks that he can ultimately point the finger at Dean. That's why he's not sympathetic to me. It's not Dean's fault. METATRON wanted kevin dead and dean didn't abandon him; he just wasn't able to stop it. Blaming Dean for Kevin's death is like blaming Sam for Mary's death.
CastielsCat
# CastielsCat 2014-03-04 02:22
In Defending your life we see that Dean blames himself for Jo's death. He didn't release Lucifer nor did he force her to come on the mission. Yet he feels extraordinary guilt.

I am not twisting things. I am citing things exactly as they were presented on the show. Tahmoh said yes to Gadreell as did Sam. Sam had to have said yes to
Gadreell. Was Gadreel pretending to be Dean. Yes. Do
angels do what they need to to secure possession? Yes. End of story. This Is the established angel canon. Dean didn't hold a gun to his head or tell Sam he would leave him forever unless he said yes, or tell him that they would no longer be brothers unless he said yes.
Sam said yes because he wanted to live. And he quit
the trials because he wanted to live (but only if Dean promised sam was the most important thing ever).

Should Dean have told Sam what he knew earlier? Hard
to say. Sam might have died. GADREEL threatened to
leave with Sam if Dean said anything. I guess Dean was between a rock and a hard place which happens a lot to people who care about things other than themselves.

I really don't think Sam's POV is the problem. He shows us his POV all of the time. For most people he's no longer a very sympathetic character. He appears to blame Dean for everything and does not accept responsibility for his own life choices. He didn't react to Daisy Duke hunter reminding him that people died because of his choices. What would Jodie Mills do if she knew? People died because he freed Lucifer and people died when he took a year off. Kevin could have died any time during that year and he chooses now to be sorry because he thinks that he can ultimately point the finger at Dean. That's why he's not sympathetic to me. It's not Dean's fault. METATRON wanted kevin dead and dean didn't abandon him; he just wasn't able to stop it. Blaming Dean for Kevin's death is like blaming Sam for Mary's death.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-04 02:28
Quoting CastielsCat:
Pardon me for thinking that The W inchesters and any hunters worth their salt lie for a living. Sam's entire rant in the Purge was full of lies.

Dean is Sam's brother not just a hunter.Sam's opinion which he expressed can be wrong because that what opinions can be.But Dean what he said earlier in the season to get Sam possessed was not an opinion but a lie i.e distortion facts.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-04 02:28
Quote:
Pardon me for thinking that The W inchesters and any hunters worth their salt lie for a living. Sam's entire rant in the Purge was full of lies.
Dean is Sam's brother not just a hunter.Sam's opinion which he expressed can be wrong because that what opinions can be.But Dean what he said earlier in the season to get Sam possessed was not an opinion but a lie i.e distortion facts.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-04 02:43
Quote:
He didn't release Lucifer
First Seal.Quote:
I am not twisting things. I am citing things exactly as they were presented on the show.
Yes you are twisting facts.no you are not for the second..Quote:
Tahmoh said yes to Gadreell as did Sam.
Did his brother help gadreel to get him possessed?Quote:
Do angels do what they need to to secure possession? Yes. End of story.
Does Dean do whatever to help an angel possess Sam?Quote:
Dean didn't hold a gun to his head or tell Sam he would leave him forever unless he said yes, or tell him that they would no longer be brothers unless he said yes.
No.But he did decieve Sam so that he will tell yes.As far as Dean leaving Sam forever(too much melodrama in that part).You forget that Sam was leaving Dean .Quote:
Sam said yes because he wanted to live.
Not possessed.Quote:
Should Dean have told Sam what he knew earlier?
Yes.Quote:
I guess Dean was between a rock and a hard place
His own doing.Quote:
I really don't think Sam's POV is the problem.
Sam's POV is not the problem but not showing his POV at the right time or not showing it at all is the problem.Quote:
He didn't react to Daisy Duke hunter reminding him that people died because of his choices.
But he did react .Stop twisting things.Did you forget Dean and Sam's conversation.Did the Daisy Duke hunter talk about Dean's choices?Different standards for Dean and Sam?hardly surprising.Quote:
people died when he took a year off.
People died even they were hunting.And as far as it was shown Sam was in no condition to hunt.His world imploded..but why care about it?Right.Quote:
It's not Dean's fault. METATRON wanted kevin dead and dean didn't abandon him; he just wasn't able to stop it.
Its Dean fault that Gadreel possessed Sam and Gadreel killed Kevin.Quote:
Blaming Dean for Kevin's death is like blaming Sam for Mary's death.
Because Sam made the deal which got Mary killed ?
All the people who do not know about Sam's choices do not also know about Dean's choices.First Seal and Last Seal and Dean's Deal everything.Acti ng like Dean's choices did not matter I expect nothing more.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-04 02:43
Quote:
He didn't release Lucifer
First Seal.Quote:
I am not twisting things. I am citing things exactly as they were presented on the show.
Yes you are twisting facts.no you are not for the second..Quote:
Tahmoh said yes to Gadreell as did Sam.
Did his brother help gadreel to get him possessed?Quote:
Do angels do what they need to to secure possession? Yes. End of story.
Does Dean do whatever to help an angel possess Sam?Quote:
Dean didn't hold a gun to his head or tell Sam he would leave him forever unless he said yes, or tell him that they would no longer be brothers unless he said yes.
No.But he did decieve Sam so that he will tell yes.As far as Dean leaving Sam forever(too much melodrama in that part).You forget that Sam was leaving Dean .Quote:
Sam said yes because he wanted to live.
Not possessed.Quote:
Should Dean have told Sam what he knew earlier?
Yes.Quote:
I guess Dean was between a rock and a hard place
His own doing.Quote:
I really don't think Sam's POV is the problem.
Sam's POV is not the problem but not showing his POV at the right time or not showing it at all is the problem.Quote:
He didn't react to Daisy Duke hunter reminding him that people died because of his choices.
But he did react .Stop twisting things.Did you forget Dean and Sam's conversation.Did the Daisy Duke hunter talk about Dean's choices?Different standards for Dean and Sam?hardly surprising.Quote:
people died when he took a year off.
People died even they were hunting.And as far as it was shown Sam was in no condition to hunt.His world imploded..but why care about it?Right.Quote:
It's not Dean's fault. METATRON wanted kevin dead and dean didn't abandon him; he just wasn't able to stop it.
Its Dean fault that Gadreel possessed Sam and Gadreel killed Kevin.Quote:
Blaming Dean for Kevin's death is like blaming Sam for Mary's death.
Because Sam made the deal which got Mary killed ?
All the people who do not know about Sam's choices do not also know about Dean's choices.First Seal and Last Seal and Dean's Deal everything.Acti ng like Dean's choices did not matter I expect nothing more.
alice
# alice 2014-03-04 10:00
Fantastic. Thanks for taking a constructive discussion and turning it into yet again a Sam vs. Dean tit for tat. There are no flipping winners in this, so I'm done reading it. I'm evoking my privilege as author of this article and I'm permanently closing anymore comments on this thread. This conversation has strayed way too far from the spirit of the review.

I want to thank all of you that actually stayed within the discussion scope and offered some great opinions. I'm sorry it came to this. Since I'm also the admin, I'll also be unpublishing any comments that hint Sam vs. Dean.
Alice
# Alice 2014-03-04 10:00
Fantastic. Thanks for taking a constructive discussion and turning it into yet again a Sam vs. Dean tit for tat. There are no flipping winners in this, so I'm done reading it. I'm evoking my privilege as author of this article and I'm permanently closing anymore comments on this thread. This conversation has strayed way too far from the spirit of the review.

I want to thank all of you that actually stayed within the discussion scope and offered some great opinions. I'm sorry it came to this. Since I'm also the admin, I'll also be unpublishing any comments that hint Sam vs. Dean.