“The Purge” is aptly named. This episode is all about purging---both physically and emotionally. In some ways, both are tied together. In other ways, both are metaphors for one another. Purging is a process we all go through at some point in our lives---be it physically purging our bodies or living spaces or be it emotionally as we shed bad habits or trim fat from relationships. It can be a healthy thing that gives us a chance at rebirth---a leaner and meaner version of us that can now face the world from a stronger place. Supernatural explores that thoroughly here---although for Sam and Dean this is clearly only the beginning of the painful process.

So, what does it mean to “purge?”

We're all familiar with the word. It's said often enough in our everyday lexicon. We purge our closets. Retail stores purge their backrooms. We purge our email in-boxes. In the news, tragically, it is often connected to genocide or ethnic cleanses. Sadly, the most famous use of the word is connected to those that suffer from the eating disorder, bulimia. But what does it really mean? The dictionary defines “purge” as “to rid of whatever is impure or undesirable; cleanse; purify.” Essentially, it means to purify ourselves---mind and body.

If purging means to cleanse, that can take the form of cleaning one's home or office. It can mean cleansing ourselves of stress inducers. It can mean to purge our bodies of toxins or to trim our waistlines.

In the case of “The Purge,” it can mean trimming the fat from our relationships---as Sam and Dean begin to do.


The most obvious example of physical purging in “The Purge” is that of the monster of the week. Let's examine that case. The creature, a pishtaco, sucks the fat out of its victims in order to feed. This doesn't have to be fatal, and therefore it can be a purifying experience for those that visit the spa, Canyon Valley. They are purging people of the unwanted weight and cellulite that plagues them.

This type of purging is prevalent in our obesity epidemic conscious culture. It's on the news, it's featured in ads, it's in magazines, it's in books---and it's what TV shows are made about, such as The Biggest Loser. It's all about purging ourselves out of being fat---of cleansing ourselves from the junk food that got us to that and more. Purging has become a competition as everyone strives to reach smaller and smaller sizes and weight totals.

The current winner of The Biggest Loser (ironically from Stillwater, Minnesota) has faced criticism for perhaps going to far, showing that while purging has its good qualities it can perhaps turn dark---as it does in “The Purge.” The pishtaco that is feeding on these people are taking their “purgings” too far. It's killing its victims by sucking far too much fat out.


After the hot dog eating contest, we see our first example of this---although we don't know it. The 300-lb plus winner gets into his car and is reduced to 90-lbs before our very eyes. A woman that is trying to lose weight in preparation for her wedding is reduced from 180-lbs to 74-lbs. This is the downside of purging told in metaphor.

This first purging is also what brings Sam and Dean to the scene. They want to find out what could possibly shrink such a large man down to such a small size so rapidly. At first they think witch---and we're introduced to the runner up's wife---a practicing Gypsy who has a putsi bag that the brothers think may have put a hex on the victim.


That's not the case, and as they dig deeper they discover Canyon Valley. The advertisement on their website is enticing. It exemplifies everything about why we choose to purge in our lives. After all, we'll be better for it in the end---and it will be quick and easy. In our instant gratification age, this is appealing. They tell their clients that they won't have to adhere to strict diets or extreme workout regimes. Instead, they are inviting their clients to come and purge themselves of unwanted fat and weight all the while being pampered in luxury.

The brothers arrive, trying to nudge their way into the spa. As neither of them fit the clientele profile, they instead try to get hired as personal trainers. Only problem is that only one can be hired---leaving the other one with kitchen duty.


Sam's the lucky personal trainer---and as he conducts a yoga class he realizes that every victim has the same mark found on both dead victims. Their backs are riddled with strange suction marks that simply shouldn't be there. Considering that Sam believes this to be how the monster is killing its victims, it seems they may have indeed found ground zero.

None of the clients seem to be dying at Canyon Valley, however.


The sheriff the brothers met in Stillwater has decided to come to the spa for her own treatment. As we watch, what Sam suspects is confirmed. The marks on those client's backs are indeed suction marks---mixed in with actual cupping marks to hide it. Donna is lying defenseless on the massage table, and we see the pishtaco in all its glory for the first time. This time, though, it isn't to kill. Maritza, it seems, is merely feeding enough to get by while purging Donna of her unwanted weight.

As she later tells Dean, “We could help people lose weight, and I could feed. It was a win-win.”

Purging here is good. She's not hurting her clients nor is she killing. She's merely making it so she can survive and they can get what they want---a healthier and thinner body.

The problem, however, is that like most fad diets, quick weight loss plans or pills, and the medical equivalent of the pishtaco, liposuction, is that none of these methods come with the hard work necessary to make the weight loss or purging a sustainable result. “The Purge” shows us that our instant gratification addiction doesn't give us what we really want or need. We may lose this weight quickly---ten pounds in a day as Donna does---but it won't last and we'll be back for more.

Rather, the message is that if one is to purge, one will have to put in the work---the real work. If one wants to truly purge---to cleanse or purify---one will have to endure the growing pains and the difficulties that come with it. They will have to endure the heartache, and the ups and downs. They will have to struggle and fight for every inch---or none of their purging will have any meaning. It means not taking the easy road---no matter how tempting.


Unfortunately, Alonso doesn't see things the same way his sister, Maritza, does. He, too, is a pishtaco. Unlike his sister, he doesn't see feeding only to get by as good enough. As Sam points out, he's no friend of “portion control.” After he nearly killed a client, he's been demoted to kitchen duty---and this causes Alonso to rebel. Wisely---although not far enough away---he's chosen to kill outside of Canyon Valley.

Alonso doesn't see their life at Canyon Valley as “a better way, a more civilized way. One where we weren't monsters.” Instead, he sees it as starvation. It's too hard to hold back or to feed in moderation. Much like the clients that Canyon Valley serves, Alonso would rather be able to feed to his heart's content and not have the consequences that come with it---in their case it's extra weight and in his it ends with a victim dead. He would much rather take the easy road---while his sister is trying to teach him the virtue of the difficult road that can give long lasting and satisfying results.

Once Maritza tells the brothers everything they need to know about her brother and where he could be---especially after Alonso's killed her husband, we see them pursue him in the darkness in the basement. Silver can hurt him. Just as Alonso's about to kill Sam, Dean kills him.


It is a devastating result for Maritza as she tells Sam, “I lost my whole family today.”

If Alonso had just listened to his sister---and tried to adhere to her methods for purging clients in order to make a better life---perhaps this wouldn't have been the result. If he had followed her example, he may have been able to feed and be satisfied---but he found purging and reining in his monstrous side to be too difficult and it cost him his life and his sister everything she had.

So, what about Sam and Dean and their relationship? Throughout “The Purge” we see them struggling with their own issues and with their difficulties after being reunited in “Sharp Teeth.” How, then, do they go about purging---or as the pishtaco does to its victims, trim the fat?

Let's first look at Dean.


Dean returned with his brother at the end of “Sharp Teeth,” knowing Sam's terms meant they would be hunting partners---but not to expect more. In some ways, this is more than he could have hoped for, and so he'll take what he can get. He tells Sam in the beginning, “Oh, about that we're not supposed to be brothers?” It's part of his defensive mechanism---hiding his hurt under a flippant line that closes down discussion quickly.

This is certainly something he must purge from his relationship with Sam if they are to grow past and learn from their mistakes.


While Sam says, “I was just being honest,” we can't help but wonder if perhaps Dean is misinterpreting or taking what Sam said a bit further than it was intended. Perhaps this is another thing Dean must purge in his relationship with Sam. What Sam says and what Dean hears might not be the same thing---and this can lead to the misunderstandings that cause friction between the brothers. Those misunderstandings have certainly lead to great heartache for both Sam and Dean over the years.

Dean must also learn how to understand his brother, too. When he is indignant and tells Sam that if situations were reversed that Sam would have done the same and Sam replies, “No, Dean, I wouldn't---same circumstances, I wouldn't,” he can't simply stop at hearing, “I wouldn't.” That's not what Sam is saying at all. Instead, Sam is telling him that he would respect Dean's wishes---even if he didn't agree with or like them. Dean must see through the words that cut deep and see the true meaning---Sam loves his brother enough to let him go if that was what Dean wanted.


Sam may have told his brother that he wouldn't have done the same thing---but that doesn't mean he doesn't want to save his brother ever. In “The Purge,” when Sam receives the distress call from Dean, we see him become nearly frantic as he rushes towards the storerooms and once he finds his drugged brother he's not simply concerned or angry---he's downright furious. Sam actually pins the cook against the wall in his fury, demanding that he tell him what has happened and what was in the pudding. He needs to know now, and he won't take no for an answer.

Much like learning how to respect Sam, Dean needs to know that Sam would respect him in kind. It's about building trust and respect on a level playing field, that it's about the brothers finding their proper footing that will allow them to avoid future misunderstandings as they so often have.

But that's only one part of the equation. Dean may have punished himself for what happened with Gadreel and Sam---even going as far as to banish himself for what had happened---but what does he really think about what happened?


For Dean, we've seen him---since the age of four---driven to protect Sam at all costs. It's his job. It's what he does. It's who he fundamentally is and always has been. That drive was only intensified after he was told by his father that he will have to save or kill Sam. In Dean's mind he's only ever seen one option: save Sam. It's become his prime directive.

In some cases this prime directive has been an asset. It's allowed Dean to save Sam countless times. It's allowed him purpose and given him drive to see things through---especially when he sees what Sam could become if he says “Yes” to Lucifer as he does in “The End.” He will not walk away from Sam and let him become the monster he's feared becoming. It's that drive that allowed him to go to Stull and be with Sam---even if it means he'll have to let Sam go there.

But sometimes, Dean takes this drive and does things with it that have consequences that he doesn't see coming---ones that ultimately and usually effect Sam. One of these is getting Sam's soul back. Soulless Sam knew that it wasn't to save him. It was to save Sammy---and Dean was warned that it would be battered and broken. It could even kill Sam, but he put it back in anyways. It led to the Wall---and when it crumbled it led to Sam enduring frightening hallucinations.

With the current situation, we see Dean take what Sam said at the beginning of the Trials---namely that he saw a “light at the end of the tunnel” and that he wanted to “kill a hellhound and not die”---before he had even undertaken a single one and had it change him---and ignore what Sam said about finishing them in the church or what Sam said to Death. For Dean, it's taking his father's command and stripping away the “or kill him” clause all over again. It's just not in Dean's make up to kill or let Sam die. He may have done so at Stull, but he told Sam that he had looked into finding a way to bring him back anyways.


For Dean, saving Sam is the right thing to do. It's been drilled into him for so long that it's become a fixture of his character. He doesn't know how to quite let that go or how to purge this aspect. It's not exactly bad that Dean feels this way, but his drive to save Sam truly isn't the problem anyways. Dean's problem is that he sees it as right no matter the circumstances. It matters not how it's achieved---or if he's confirmed that's what Sam wants, too. The ends justify the means---as it did here with allowing Gadreel to possess his brother.

Essentially, Dean must purge some of this drive. No, not all of it. It's an essential part of who he is---what he is. To take all of this away would be to make him unrecognizable. Instead, what Dean needs to learn is the difference between saving Sam or respecting Sam's wishes. Anything that ends in Sam's potential death is seen as part of the “kill Sam” clause and therefore inherently bad. Dean must learn, instead, that if Sam desires to be let go or to die that he must respect that---just as Sam would if situations were to be reversed. Basically, Dean must trust Sam---even if he doesn't agree.

Trust. He must trust in himself and he must trust in Sam. It's the only way he can trust in them as brothers. This is what Dean must learn most.

This is key for Dean to learn here because it's how he will purify his portion of the relationship he shares with Sam. It's also why Sam has banished him to “hunting partner” status. If he can earn his way to being a trustworthy hunting partner, they can use that as a foundation in order to build their way to being the brothers they can be and should be---equal.

Dean isn't the only brother, however, that is in need of purging.


Sam may have purged his feelings about their current situation in this episode, telling Dean in no uncertain terms what he sees the problem being---and yet, Sam can't quite see his own problem. He asks his brother, “Please tell me, what is the upside of me being alive?” In this context, it is clearly a rhetorical question---but under the surface we can tell that Sam wants Dean to answer. He needs to know what good can come from him being alive.

We can sympathize with Sam here because we understand his reasons. Kevin is dead, Crowley isn't cured, and Hell is still open. People are still being possessed and killed in a war between the King of Hell and new Queen of Hell. And they're no nearer to finding a solution to putting the angels back where they belong---including Gadreel. Some of these terrible things were done while Sam was possessed---so even if Sam didn't commit the act, his body did---and thus Sam feels responsible for it. For the younger Winchester, there's a lot of darkness surrounding his being alive.


And yet, Sam is taking too much of the burden upon himself. Much the way Dean tries to carry Sam and save him at all costs, Sam will take the world's problems upon his shoulders and try to fix them all. This goes back to his letting out Lucifer---but Sam should realize that not everything that has happened is his fault as he is willing to believe.

Sam had nothing to do with Metatron causing Heaven's implosion. He wasn't the one working with the Scribe to make it happen---even unwittingly. That problem isn't his fault by any means. Castiel did---and has owned up to that.

Closing Hell may have been a boon for humanity---but then again in light of the expulsion of the angels from Heaven one has to wonder if he had followed through if the results would have been for the greater good. Crowley may have been cured and demonkind may have been banished, but would that have been the only result? Or, could closing the Gates could have left some demons not in Hell trapped on earth? As the Trials were never completed, we don't know the results. And yet Sam is willing to take the blame for any demonic mischief.

As for Kevin's death, we know that what Gadreel did while inside Sam's body has left the younger Winchester scarred, but we can't help but wonder if Kevin's death was inevitable. Certainly it wouldn't have happened the way it had without Gadreel's possession, and yet it's likely that Metatron would have had Kevin killed at some point no matter what. He wanted the Prophet out of the way; he wanted the Tablets in his possession. If Kevin had gone to Branson or another place to get away from the Bunker for a few days it's not impossible to think that perhaps Metatron would have found a way to rid himself of Kevin another way.

Sam, however, is too close to the situation to see that. He only sees what happened---and it's no wonder that he is riddled with guilt over it.


Sam must start to see what good he's bringing. He might think he should have died in the Trials---or in the period after they were stopped---but he still brings good to the world. He did so in “The Purge” by letting Maritza go. She was innocent in all of this, and he knew that she shouldn't be punished for what has happened. In some ways, he even acknowledged the fact that what Gadreel had done while possessing him hadn't actually been his fault---evidenced by the fact that he tells Dean, “What if I had crossed paths with a hunter back when I was possessed by Gadreel? I could've ended up dead, too. Would I have deserved that? Would I have deserved to die?”

And as Sam has decided to continue hunting we know he's still out there saving people, hunting things. He's giving back that way---and as he searches for ways to undo what Metatron did, we know that he'll continue to bring even more good to the world.

Much like Dean, though, Sam must also look at himself. What Dean did by convincing Sam to allow Gadreel to possess him has clearly hurt him---and clearly didn't respect Sam's wishes---but the truth is he still decided to go along with his brother. He chose to stop the Trials and he chose to say yes to Dean's plan even if he didn't know what it was. Sam chose Dean and chose to live in both cases. He must acknowledge this as much as Dean must acknowledge what he did wrong in the situation.

And just like his older brother, Sam must find a way to relearn his brother's language again. He, too, misinterprets both Dean's words and actions at times. He is hurt and angry by what Dean has done, but he must reexamine these words and deeds to see why Dean did them. Sam isn't wrong when he tells Dean, “You didn't save me for me. You did it for you,” but much how Dean only heard, “I wouldn't save you,” he's simplifying some of Dean's motivations.

Dean saved Sam because he values Sam's worth and life. Certainly, he does so because of the drive already discussed, but it's also because he knows that Sam is a capable and worthy hunter that can save others. He knows that if Sam wasn't around many more would die---many more would suffer. This is what Sam must hear and read between the lines when he looks at these recent events. Sam must purge some of the negative connotations that they bring. No, he must not simply forgive and forget, but he should take a step back and see them from a new light.


Dean's response to his question about being alive, “You and me -- fighting the good fight together,” is a simple statement---and yet it conveys a profound message: the world is better for Sam being in it. Now it's up to Sam to receive that message---and believe it.


In another layer of “The Purge,” however, we can see that while the brotherly relationship is rocky right now, it's not completely ruined. There's great hope if one watches carefully. The brothers both said things they needed to get off of their chests---but watch them closely and see how they mirror one another. They sit the same way in the motel facing the gypsy, Mala. They stand close to one another at the spa as they get the story from Maritza. Sam teases Dean, “Wait, you told that waitress the other day you were 29.” They may be strictly partners at this point in time, but we can tell that things can be repaired just by how they interact on a body language level. They're often in-sync in how they move. It's clear that they're not completely in other worlds from one another.

Purging is a long and painful process, however. It's not always easy, it's not always fun, and it's not always quick---nor should it be. Sam and Dean both need to trim fat from themselves and from their relationship in order to make their brotherhood everything that it can be. Otherwise they'll end up right where they were at the end of “Road Trip”---or worse.

In the end, if they stick to it, they'll be even stronger for it---they'll be real brothers again.


Brianna Buckmaster's performance as Sheriff Donna Hanscum brilliantly shouted out to Fargo, and she did so with fun flair. The accent, the look, and all the mannerisms made her an amusing addition---all without going over the top. It gave her character a bit of charm. Buckmaster's scene in the police station with the donuts was delightful and funny---especially when paired with Ackles. When we see Donna again at the spa, we see Buckmaster flush her out as we learn her story. Under the Fargo-tribute, we see a real woman and it's all in how she delivers her lines here. The accent and the slang are still there, but it's almost understated in this scene. There's such heartbreak as she tells them, “Whoever said you eat your pain? Not me. I guzzled it ” Buckmaster may have played a small role in this episode, but she enriched it by giving us Sheriff Donna Hanscum.

Annabelle Acosta played Maritza, the pishtaco. There's a charisma we see in Acosta's character when we're introduced to her in the spa video. She's convincing and exotic in a way that makes us want to go to the spa. The video does exactly what any good advertisement is designed to do, and it's partly due to Acosta's performance as Maritza. When we see her at the actual spa, she's just as charming and captivating---but as we see her start to do a treatment on the Sheriff, we start to feel a bit uneasy. She's almost too calming as she tells Donna about the treatment---and as we see her finish putting on the cups to feed, we're instantly suspicious of her. Yet, when it's revealed that she's not actually the one responsible for the murders that brought Sam and Dean to the spa, Acosta makes us feel sympathetic for Maritza. She's simply trying to make a better life here and trying to feed without hurting people. We believe her when she tells them that she wanted to be more civilized---and that she wanted to teach her brother how to do the same. Acosta also breaks our hearts when we see her alone after both Maritza's brother and husband are dead. The way she delivers the line, “I lost my whole family today,” seals that emotion.


Jensen Ackles continues to show both sides of Dean expertly. On one hand, he conveys all of the elder Winchester's exhaustion, frustration, and devastation. It's in his body language, in his voice, and written all over his face. When Dean feels heartbroken, we feel heartbroken. When he feels as if he's been punched in the gut, we, too, feel punched in the gut. It's all how Ackles shows these reactions in Dean---as shoulders sag and his expression darken in sadness. Ackles knows just how to make us connect with the elder Winchester with just his subtle performance. Yet, Ackles also excels at comedy in this episode, showing us just how multi-faceted Dean can be. There's delightful humor when Dean eats the donut, getting it all over his face---his boyish enjoyment of it makes us laugh. He also amps this up when we see him oversell their qualifications as physical trainers. Ackles wisely makes this funny---all the while connecting the comedy to the drama. We can tell that part of his oversell here is because he's hurting. Again, when Dean's drugged, we see comedy and drama collide, giving us reason to laugh and reason to feel alarm along with Sam. It's a brilliantly presented scene. In the end, however, Ackles really makes us feel deeply for Dean, all in that final expression. We can't help but connect on a fundamental level with his character here---all on how Ackles conveys that final pain with just a single dejected expression.

Jared Padalecki presents a guarded Sam well. Throughout the episode, we see him perform a delicate balance of keeping Sam and Dean at arm's length---all in how he carries himself and delivers his lines. There's a tiredness that comes through in some of these scenes, too. Padalecki shows us that Sam wants to keep things strictly business and that he means it. That being said, he also shows Sam's concern about his brother extremely well when he receives Dean's phone call. Worry etches its way across his face, telling us everything we need to know. As he searches for Dean in the kitchen, we can tell that he's frantic and fighting his anxiety---and as soon as he learns what has happened and why, we see Padalecki show Sam's fury well. The treat in this episode, of course, is seeing Sam in his yoga trainer outfit. It's a shallow moment, no doubt, but here it works well. Padalecki takes the shallow moment and makes it funny in how over-enthusiastic Sam is about his “students.” He also shows us that Sam's enjoying his turn in the outfit---all in how Padalecki delivers the line, “You're not the only one who's dated someone bendy.” Padalecki connects well with Acosta as he shows Sam's empathy in their final scene. It makes us feel deeply for both characters and we feel his sympathy deeply when he says, “I'm sorry.” That final conversation between Sam and Dean tugs at our heartstrings---in large part because Padalecki makes us feel deeply with Sam. We understand and sympathize with him here as he delivers his lines with a subtle sorrow. It's a gut wrenching performance here that lingers long after viewing.

Best Lines of the Week:

Dean: Yet another reason to stay away from salads.

Sam: You’re not the only one who has dated someone bendy.

Sam: Wait, you told that waitress the other day you were 29.

Looks like when the show comes back Sam will finally learn what a Snooki is.


Comments  

SueB
# SueB 2014-02-14 03:11
Good review. I'm really glad you picked up on the parallels of the purging Maritza did and getting the toxins out of the brother's relationship. I think this is the only review which, correctly IMO, points out that what Maritza does for her client is not actually a good thing. Easy weight loss like that is not healthy nor long lasting.

I think there's a little more toxicity in the exchange between the brothers that showed and I think those toxins also need to be purged.

It's not just responding with denial's and quips that Dean needs to get out of his system. It's also some of the anger he holds onto for Sam letting go so easily. Sam didn't look for him in purgatory. Sam left the family time and time again. Dean's angry about that and he holds himself somewhat superior to Sam because of it. It's not just hurt that Dean feels regarding Sam's behavior. Dean feels Sam is fundamentally wrong about how he's treated Dean/family over the years. The audience feels like Sam is wrong too (hence the anger over the decision to not look for Dean in Purgatory is still a toxic subject).

Sam, OTOH, needs to get his resentment over his big brother controlling attitude. While it's true that he was only being honest in "Sharp Teeth", it's a dig at Dean. I also think the "bendy" reference was a way to bring up Dean's controlling behavior with Lisa/Ben. Dean told Sam he's break his nose if he ever brought Lisa/Ben up again. And this is the time that Sam choose to make a reference? It's no coincidence. But Dean has no choice but to swallow any outrage at this moment. Finally, he needlessly brings up Dean's earlier obvious lie about being upset about their conversation when Dean opens up to talk at the end. All of these little interactions from Sam's side show the snarky little brother getting digs in because he feels both superior and inferior at the same time.

So while the underlying issues you identified (Dean needing to respect Sam's free-will, Sam needing to recognize his own value is beyond curing Dean's loneliness) are toxic, there's also a level of toxicity in their communication that speaks to even more ancient issues that go back to childhood and their relationship.

At the end of the day, Dean will always be the older brother and take some level of leadership/patr iarch role in their relationship. Sam is going to need to stop resenting this and see that it comes from love, not desperation. Dean, OTOH, is going to have to see Sam's running away as not leaving the family so much as trying to find his own identity. Dean needs to lose the grudge he has over these moments and see the world through Sam's eyes. And both brothers have got to stop hurting each other with digs. Some of that is okay when things are right between them. But right now, these digs are old wounds that they are re-opening versus healing.

I truly believe the show runners are trying to purge this negativity out of the relationship. Not perfectly, but to work the underlying issues and not take the fast route. "Purge" was hard to watch because of the level of toxins that are floating around. The audience feels it and we don't like it. But those toxins need to get out and get "purged" so we can get to the underlying issues effectively, without the miscommunicatio n getting in the way. It's a necessary episode, even though it's hard to watch.
SueB
# SueB 2014-02-14 03:11
Good review. I'm really glad you picked up on the parallels of the purging Maritza did and getting the toxins out of the brother's relationship. I think this is the only review which, correctly IMO, points out that what Maritza does for her client is not actually a good thing. Easy weight loss like that is not healthy nor long lasting.

I think there's a little more toxicity in the exchange between the brothers that showed and I think those toxins also need to be purged.

It's not just responding with denial's and quips that Dean needs to get out of his system. It's also some of the anger he holds onto for Sam letting go so easily. Sam didn't look for him in purgatory. Sam left the family time and time again. Dean's angry about that and he holds himself somewhat superior to Sam because of it. It's not just hurt that Dean feels regarding Sam's behavior. Dean feels Sam is fundamentally wrong about how he's treated Dean/family over the years. The audience feels like Sam is wrong too (hence the anger over the decision to not look for Dean in Purgatory is still a toxic subject).

Sam, OTOH, needs to get his resentment over his big brother controlling attitude. While it's true that he was only being honest in "Sharp Teeth", it's a dig at Dean. I also think the "bendy" reference was a way to bring up Dean's controlling behavior with Lisa/Ben. Dean told Sam he's break his nose if he ever brought Lisa/Ben up again. And this is the time that Sam choose to make a reference? It's no coincidence. But Dean has no choice but to swallow any outrage at this moment. Finally, he needlessly brings up Dean's earlier obvious lie about being upset about their conversation when Dean opens up to talk at the end. All of these little interactions from Sam's side show the snarky little brother getting digs in because he feels both superior and inferior at the same time.

So while the underlying issues you identified (Dean needing to respect Sam's free-will, Sam needing to recognize his own value is beyond curing Dean's loneliness) are toxic, there's also a level of toxicity in their communication that speaks to even more ancient issues that go back to childhood and their relationship.

At the end of the day, Dean will always be the older brother and take some level of leadership/patr iarch role in their relationship. Sam is going to need to stop resenting this and see that it comes from love, not desperation. Dean, OTOH, is going to have to see Sam's running away as not leaving the family so much as trying to find his own identity. Dean needs to lose the grudge he has over these moments and see the world through Sam's eyes. And both brothers have got to stop hurting each other with digs. Some of that is okay when things are right between them. But right now, these digs are old wounds that they are re-opening versus healing.

I truly believe the show runners are trying to purge this negativity out of the relationship. Not perfectly, but to work the underlying issues and not take the fast route. "Purge" was hard to watch because of the level of toxins that are floating around. The audience feels it and we don't like it. But those toxins need to get out and get "purged" so we can get to the underlying issues effectively, without the miscommunicatio n getting in the way. It's a necessary episode, even though it's hard to watch.
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2014-02-14 03:24
I really enjoy reading your reviews Far Away Eyes and this was no exception. The episode was very aptly named, summing up both the monster and the troubles of 'our boys'. I agree that both Sam and Dean have things to work on before their relationship can be healed and they can work together as equals.

Quote:
What Sam says and what Dean hears might not be the same thing---and this can lead to the misunderstandings that cause friction between the brothers. Those misunderstandings have certainly lead to great heartache for both Sam and Dean over the years.
I also agree with this... and it goes for a lot of the fandom too, particularly after this episode ;-)

Finally, your comment about Jared's performance in the final scene made me smile because for a while there I seriously thought I was the only one to see that Sam was not angry in that final moment. His expression changed to sadness and, I think, resignation that he might never be able to make Dean understand where he was coming from.

Quote:
That final conversation between Sam and Dean tugs at our heartstrings---in large part because Padalecki makes us feel deeply with Sam. We understand and sympathize with him here as he delivers his lines with a subtle sorrow. It's a gut wrenching performance here that lingers long after viewing.
Thank you :-)
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2014-02-14 03:24
I really enjoy reading your reviews Far Away Eyes and this was no exception. The episode was very aptly named, summing up both the monster and the troubles of 'our boys'. I agree that both Sam and Dean have things to work on before their relationship can be healed and they can work together as equals.

Quote:
What Sam says and what Dean hears might not be the same thing---and this can lead to the misunderstandings that cause friction between the brothers. Those misunderstandings have certainly lead to great heartache for both Sam and Dean over the years.
I also agree with this... and it goes for a lot of the fandom too, particularly after this episode ;-)

Finally, your comment about Jared's performance in the final scene made me smile because for a while there I seriously thought I was the only one to see that Sam was not angry in that final moment. His expression changed to sadness and, I think, resignation that he might never be able to make Dean understand where he was coming from.

Quote:
That final conversation between Sam and Dean tugs at our heartstrings---in large part because Padalecki makes us feel deeply with Sam. We understand and sympathize with him here as he delivers his lines with a subtle sorrow. It's a gut wrenching performance here that lingers long after viewing.
Thank you :-)
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-14 05:02
Lovely review. I'm looking forward to the boys sorting out their issues.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-14 05:02
Lovely review. I'm looking forward to the boys sorting out their issues.
E
# E 2014-02-14 05:19
"While Sam says, “I was just being honest,” we can't help but wonder if perhaps Dean is misinterpreting or taking what Sam said a bit further than it was intended. Perhaps this is another thing Dean must purge in his relationship with Sam. What Sam says and what Dean hears might not be the same thing---and this can lead to the misunderstandin gs that cause friction between the brothers. Those misunderstandin gs have certainly lead to great heartache for both Sam and Dean over the years."

I couldn't agree with this statement more Far Away Eyes! Not only does Dean do this continually where Sam is concerned, it seems that a huge number of fans do it as well. I have seen so many comments, articles and even reviewers (who should have better insight IMO) claiming that Sam has now stated unequivocally that he will never save his brother ever again for any reason, that he'll just let Dean die and not lift a finger to help him. This is clearly not what Sam said or meant, but his words have been confabulated in a way that is not only incorrect, but unfair to Sam as a character. For some reason, Dean's statements are often taken at face value even if that is clearly not the intention of the writers, and this is one of those times. Just because Dean hears "I won't save you" does not mean that is what Sam said. Sam said "in the same circumstances, I wouldn't," meaning Sam would not let an angel possess Dean (especially without his knowledge or against his will) to save him from death. Thats it, angel possession only; against his will only. Sam would have rather died than be possessed and tricked, and so would have Dean IMO, especially given his reaction to creepy Dr. Benton in season 3's Time is on My Side where he made it clear that life at any cost was not good enough for him. He demanded at that time that Sam abide by his decision which Sam did. Sam understands and respects this, and Dean does not, at least not when it comes to Sam. Dean misinterprets things Sam says often, and so do the critics and the fans nearly as often. Thank you so much for providing what I feel is a much more balanced and accurate view of what is going on with our beloved brothers. The blame does not lie exclusively at one door, this is a problem that has been a lifetime in the making and both brothers need to work on their issues if they are ever going to move forward as human beings and become brothers once again.
E
# E 2014-02-14 05:19
"While Sam says, “I was just being honest,” we can't help but wonder if perhaps Dean is misinterpreting or taking what Sam said a bit further than it was intended. Perhaps this is another thing Dean must purge in his relationship with Sam. What Sam says and what Dean hears might not be the same thing---and this can lead to the misunderstandin gs that cause friction between the brothers. Those misunderstandin gs have certainly lead to great heartache for both Sam and Dean over the years."

I couldn't agree with this statement more Far Away Eyes! Not only does Dean do this continually where Sam is concerned, it seems that a huge number of fans do it as well. I have seen so many comments, articles and even reviewers (who should have better insight IMO) claiming that Sam has now stated unequivocally that he will never save his brother ever again for any reason, that he'll just let Dean die and not lift a finger to help him. This is clearly not what Sam said or meant, but his words have been confabulated in a way that is not only incorrect, but unfair to Sam as a character. For some reason, Dean's statements are often taken at face value even if that is clearly not the intention of the writers, and this is one of those times. Just because Dean hears "I won't save you" does not mean that is what Sam said. Sam said "in the same circumstances, I wouldn't," meaning Sam would not let an angel possess Dean (especially without his knowledge or against his will) to save him from death. Thats it, angel possession only; against his will only. Sam would have rather died than be possessed and tricked, and so would have Dean IMO, especially given his reaction to creepy Dr. Benton in season 3's Time is on My Side where he made it clear that life at any cost was not good enough for him. He demanded at that time that Sam abide by his decision which Sam did. Sam understands and respects this, and Dean does not, at least not when it comes to Sam. Dean misinterprets things Sam says often, and so do the critics and the fans nearly as often. Thank you so much for providing what I feel is a much more balanced and accurate view of what is going on with our beloved brothers. The blame does not lie exclusively at one door, this is a problem that has been a lifetime in the making and both brothers need to work on their issues if they are ever going to move forward as human beings and become brothers once again.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-14 09:22
I don't think the Dr. Benton parallel is a good one since the body parts would be coming from unwilling victims and would not have saved Dean from going to hell or completely healed him.

The problem is that it's fine for Sam to set limits on how far he wants Dean to go to save him but he has now decided he can also set limits on how far he is willing to go to save Dean and has. So in essence Sam now is making decisions for Dean as well as himself. Sam made the decision not to look for Dean and now says he wouldn't save Dean if possession is involved. Dean believed that Sam would look for him and would have him possessed by an angel to save him. Sam is not just expecting his wishes about himself to be respected but is putting them into action where Dean is concerned whether Dean agrees or not. That is a profound gap IMO.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-14 09:22
I don't think the Dr. Benton parallel is a good one since the body parts would be coming from unwilling victims and would not have saved Dean from going to hell or completely healed him.

The problem is that it's fine for Sam to set limits on how far he wants Dean to go to save him but he has now decided he can also set limits on how far he is willing to go to save Dean and has. So in essence Sam now is making decisions for Dean as well as himself. Sam made the decision not to look for Dean and now says he wouldn't save Dean if possession is involved. Dean believed that Sam would look for him and would have him possessed by an angel to save him. Sam is not just expecting his wishes about himself to be respected but is putting them into action where Dean is concerned whether Dean agrees or not. That is a profound gap IMO.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-14 09:43
Sam making decisions about how he will behave if Dean is ill or dying is exactly that making decisions about how SAM will behave in that circumstance. Sam is many things, but he has his own morals and ethics and he gets to live by them. Most people get to do that. It is in no way making decisions for Dean. Plus since Dean knows this he can give Cas his health care Power of Attorney. Then he doesn't have to worry about Sam's decisions.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-14 09:43
Sam making decisions about how he will behave if Dean is ill or dying is exactly that making decisions about how SAM will behave in that circumstance. Sam is many things, but he has his own morals and ethics and he gets to live by them. Most people get to do that. It is in no way making decisions for Dean. Plus since Dean knows this he can give Cas his health care Power of Attorney. Then he doesn't have to worry about Sam's decisions.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-14 10:23
Quoting Prix68:
Sam... now says he wouldn't save Dean if possession is involved.


Actually, it hasn't been clarified yet that Sam wouldn't allowed Dean to be possessed to save him. I took his 'same circumstances' remark to mean that Sam would not disrespect Dean's wishes (as Dean disrespected Sam's wishes in 9.01). In other words, I think Sam meant that he wouldn't have Dean possessed to save Dean's life IF Dean would think that a fate worse than death.

I think we need to wait for further clarification on this before assuming what Sam would or would not do to save Dean. Let's hope the writers allow the characters to explain themselves properly soon.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-14 10:23
Quote:
Sam... now says he wouldn't save Dean if possession is involved.
Actually, it hasn't been clarified yet that Sam wouldn't allowed Dean to be possessed to save him. I took his 'same circumstances' remark to mean that Sam would not disrespect Dean's wishes (as Dean disrespected Sam's wishes in 9.01). In other words, I think Sam meant that he wouldn't have Dean possessed to save Dean's life IF Dean would think that a fate worse than death.

I think we need to wait for further clarification on this before assuming what Sam would or would not do to save Dean. Let's hope the writers allow the characters to explain themselves properly soon.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-14 10:26
I think Sam might allow Dean to be possessed by Castiel in extreme circumstances. He is a trusted ally after all (most of the time). While watching 9.01 it really worried me that 'Ezekiel' might be Lucifer trying to lie his way back into Sam's meatsuit. That was a practical concern rather than a moral one, but it was still relevant.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-14 10:26
I think Sam might allow Dean to be possessed by Castiel in extreme circumstances. He is a trusted ally after all (most of the time). While watching 9.01 it really worried me that 'Ezekiel' might be Lucifer trying to lie his way back into Sam's meatsuit. That was a practical concern rather than a moral one, but it was still relevant.
Sandra K
# Sandra K 2014-02-14 10:41
How is it that coming away from reading your review I feel like I just saw the episode for the first time and saw so much more to it!

Right when I thought I had diced it up as much as it could go, when I had dig as deep as I thought possible to see the why and how behind both of their actions and words, you have revealed to me that when you look at these Winchester brothers with "far away eyes" you get the bigger and more balanced picture.
I appreciate how you are able to dig up and flesh out each side without making sides - Since I haven't ever been able to take sides, it is such a pleasure and a huge relief to see what you have done here. And you weave the theme of the episode with the major thread of the conflict between these boys so aptly that I'm left to marvel at the workings of your mind.

You've also made me feel better about those bickering lines, which seemed a bit teenager-ish and I didn't like them, but now that you have shed your light on it, it actually makes me feel better.

This perspective has made the next two weeks tolerable. I hate it when those two are hurting and having been left with those pained faces and words for weeks has been hard.
How is it that you are able to infuse optimism in to your reviews?


In short, awesome review.
:)
Sandra K
# Sandra K 2014-02-14 10:41
How is it that coming away from reading your review I feel like I just saw the episode for the first time and saw so much more to it!

Right when I thought I had diced it up as much as it could go, when I had dig as deep as I thought possible to see the why and how behind both of their actions and words, you have revealed to me that when you look at these Winchester brothers with "far away eyes" you get the bigger and more balanced picture.
I appreciate how you are able to dig up and flesh out each side without making sides - Since I haven't ever been able to take sides, it is such a pleasure and a huge relief to see what you have done here. And you weave the theme of the episode with the major thread of the conflict between these boys so aptly that I'm left to marvel at the workings of your mind.

You've also made me feel better about those bickering lines, which seemed a bit teenager-ish and I didn't like them, but now that you have shed your light on it, it actually makes me feel better.

This perspective has made the next two weeks tolerable. I hate it when those two are hurting and having been left with those pained faces and words for weeks has been hard.
How is it that you are able to infuse optimism in to your reviews?


In short, awesome review.
:)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-14 10:47
#5 I think if you watch the ep again you will remember that Sam was just looking for a temporary " cure" until they could find and defeat Lilith. Sam was going to take the cure as well. But Dean correctly shot that plan down because he didn't want to be saved that way. Sam was forced to respect Dean's wishes because Dean was there insisting that he would never go that route.
Really the most troubling statement in the whole conversation between Sam and Dean was Dean's statement that he would do it again. Knowing the outcome, knowing Kevin would die Dean would do it again. That is what brought out the harsh words from Sam I thought. It wasn't worth it to Sam. That is why Sam said same circumstances he wouldn't save Dean that way. Dean knew that Sam would never agree to possession, he knew Sam would rather die. Sam is just saying how he felt and how he feels now he would never do that to Dean. But of course what would Sam really do? I think we and Sam are going to find out.
Thank you again Faraway eyes for your positive pro brother review.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-14 10:47
#5 I think if you watch the ep again you will remember that Sam was just looking for a temporary " cure" until they could find and defeat Lilith. Sam was going to take the cure as well. But Dean correctly shot that plan down because he didn't want to be saved that way. Sam was forced to respect Dean's wishes because Dean was there insisting that he would never go that route.
Really the most troubling statement in the whole conversation between Sam and Dean was Dean's statement that he would do it again. Knowing the outcome, knowing Kevin would die Dean would do it again. That is what brought out the harsh words from Sam I thought. It wasn't worth it to Sam. That is why Sam said same circumstances he wouldn't save Dean that way. Dean knew that Sam would never agree to possession, he knew Sam would rather die. Sam is just saying how he felt and how he feels now he would never do that to Dean. But of course what would Sam really do? I think we and Sam are going to find out.
Thank you again Faraway eyes for your positive pro brother review.
amyh
# amyh 2014-02-14 11:45
Lovely. I hope the boys relationship can/will become healthier.
amyh
# amyh 2014-02-14 11:45
Lovely. I hope the boys relationship can/will become healthier.
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-14 12:10
Thank you so much Far Away Eyes. I loved this review. You illustrate so well how I have always seen the brothers. Misunderstandin gs and miscommunicatio ns have been a part of their relationships all along. It is never completely black or white, one completely right or 100% wrong. That is why I love these characters. To see either of the brothers bashed just kills me. And I agree with the hopeful view of their relationship. As hard as it is to watch, maybe this will lead to better understanding while still letting each brother retain what makes them special. I have noticed also that even when Sam and Dean are at the lowest ebbs in their relationsip they still work together effortlessly as a team. They set their own crap aside. You can see how in sync they are and how they always have each others back no matter what.
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-14 12:10
Thank you so much Far Away Eyes. I loved this review. You illustrate so well how I have always seen the brothers. Misunderstandin gs and miscommunicatio ns have been a part of their relationships all along. It is never completely black or white, one completely right or 100% wrong. That is why I love these characters. To see either of the brothers bashed just kills me. And I agree with the hopeful view of their relationship. As hard as it is to watch, maybe this will lead to better understanding while still letting each brother retain what makes them special. I have noticed also that even when Sam and Dean are at the lowest ebbs in their relationsip they still work together effortlessly as a team. They set their own crap aside. You can see how in sync they are and how they always have each others back no matter what.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-14 12:47
Quote:
he chose to say yes to Dean's plan even if he didn't know what it was.
The dialogue is unclear on what Sam said yes to.Quote:
He chose to stop the Trials
The Sam not trusting Dean is because of his possession and how dean slyly had him possessed and now Sam is having doubts about Dean's motivations about what Dean told and that is why he is adamant about his position IMO.He thinks Dean manipulated him to stop the trial i.e Dean's statements which got Sam to stop may be a lie.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-14 12:47
Quote:
he chose to say yes to Dean's plan even if he didn't know what it was.
The dialogue is unclear on what Sam said yes to.Quote:
He chose to stop the Trials
The Sam not trusting Dean is because of his possession and how dean slyly had him possessed and now Sam is having doubts about Dean's motivations about what Dean told and that is why he is adamant about his position IMO.He thinks Dean manipulated him to stop the trial i.e Dean's statements which got Sam to stop may be a lie.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-02-14 14:53
@4 E: Thank You! Thank You! Thank You! for saying this. I have read so many misinterpretati ons of what was said at the end of the episode ,it makes me want to scream. You're absolutely right! Sam said none of the things people are claiming and I was beginning to think I was the only one who thought that Sam was making it pretty clear that "under the same circumstances ,he wouldn't do what was done to him.". I thought I was the only one who saw how that statement was making him feel. He didn't want to say it. It hurt him to say it. But it needed to be said, nevertheless.

But peple are so caught up in what Dean is feeling (a testament to Jensen's acting, btw) that they are taking it the same way Dean is taking that statement and Dean is misinterpreting what Sam said.

Oh, and this is a great review. Thank you, Far Away for being level-headed and rational abou tthis. I've seen far too many temper tantrums and screaming about how awful Sam is, since this episode aired and I appreciate that you wrote a balanced ,well thought-out review. For some reason I didn't see the Purging theme the way you did. This clarifies a lot of the episode for me.

@10 Cheryl142: I agree. It'll be interesting out find out just how far Sam will go to save Dean. I believe that's where we're heading this season, maybe. At least, it's what I'd like to see.

@12 Leah: I agree. I hate to see either of the brothers being bashed. I very much to try to see everything from more than just one side of their arguments.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-02-14 14:53
@4 E: Thank You! Thank You! Thank You! for saying this. I have read so many misinterpretati ons of what was said at the end of the episode ,it makes me want to scream. You're absolutely right! Sam said none of the things people are claiming and I was beginning to think I was the only one who thought that Sam was making it pretty clear that "under the same circumstances ,he wouldn't do what was done to him.". I thought I was the only one who saw how that statement was making him feel. He didn't want to say it. It hurt him to say it. But it needed to be said, nevertheless.

But peple are so caught up in what Dean is feeling (a testament to Jensen's acting, btw) that they are taking it the same way Dean is taking that statement and Dean is misinterpreting what Sam said.

Oh, and this is a great review. Thank you, Far Away for being level-headed and rational abou tthis. I've seen far too many temper tantrums and screaming about how awful Sam is, since this episode aired and I appreciate that you wrote a balanced ,well thought-out review. For some reason I didn't see the Purging theme the way you did. This clarifies a lot of the episode for me.

@10 Cheryl142: I agree. It'll be interesting out find out just how far Sam will go to save Dean. I believe that's where we're heading this season, maybe. At least, it's what I'd like to see.

@12 Leah: I agree. I hate to see either of the brothers being bashed. I very much to try to see everything from more than just one side of their arguments.
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2014-02-14 15:11
Thank you Far Away Eyes, I really enjoyed this review. In fact I'm not going to call what you do reviews anymore, they are much more like essays. So, loved your essay. ;-)

If anybody needs to purge something from their conscience it's both Sam & Dean. I for one am glad to see things come out in the open. I'm in the process of rewatching season 7, and yesterday was "The Mentalists" in which Sam was pretty PO'd at Dean after the whole Amy debacle, but by the end he could see that what Dean did was for the best. In "The Purge", Sam is not PO'd at Dean, in fact, I still found that they acted very much like themselves, i.e. the brotherly interaction was there. Yes, Sam is very standoffish, but the worry he felt for Dean when he got the phone call was genuine concern. I know a lot of the fandom, and quite a few reviewers, do not care for the road the brotherly bond is going down, but I think it shows maturity and growth. Dean needs to understand where Sam is coming from, and Sam needs to understand Dean's motivations.

And KG_SPN, I agree with you on this:
-Quote:
Finally, your comment about Jared's performance in the final scene made me smile because for a while there I seriously thought I was the only one to see that Sam was not angry in that final moment. His expression changed to sadness and, I think, resignation that he might never be able to make Dean understand where he was coming from.
That's how I perceived it also, there was such sadness in his face, there was no anger. He really wants Dean to understand him in his decision.

Phew, that was a long one. :D
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2014-02-14 15:11
Thank you Far Away Eyes, I really enjoyed this review. In fact I'm not going to call what you do reviews anymore, they are much more like essays. So, loved your essay. ;-)

If anybody needs to purge something from their conscience it's both Sam & Dean. I for one am glad to see things come out in the open. I'm in the process of rewatching season 7, and yesterday was "The Mentalists" in which Sam was pretty PO'd at Dean after the whole Amy debacle, but by the end he could see that what Dean did was for the best. In "The Purge", Sam is not PO'd at Dean, in fact, I still found that they acted very much like themselves, i.e. the brotherly interaction was there. Yes, Sam is very standoffish, but the worry he felt for Dean when he got the phone call was genuine concern. I know a lot of the fandom, and quite a few reviewers, do not care for the road the brotherly bond is going down, but I think it shows maturity and growth. Dean needs to understand where Sam is coming from, and Sam needs to understand Dean's motivations.

And KG_SPN, I agree with you on this:
-Quote:
Finally, your comment about Jared's performance in the final scene made me smile because for a while there I seriously thought I was the only one to see that Sam was not angry in that final moment. His expression changed to sadness and, I think, resignation that he might never be able to make Dean understand where he was coming from.
That's how I perceived it also, there was such sadness in his face, there was no anger. He really wants Dean to understand him in his decision.

Phew, that was a long one. :D
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-14 15:12
Holy cow faraway eyes I almost gave up on you. What took ya so long :lol: you are the only reviewer that gives fair, unbiased reviews with such insight as to what is truly going on within the episodes. I agree with every word and I am grateful that you watch this show with open eyes. You go out of your way to illustrate both boys pov's and you point out what both need to do to reach the point of starting to strengthen their bond. You never fail to make this particular fan girl look at an episode with a new understanding I might not have had. At the very least we see things much the same way. I always appreciate that you go about explaining what most of the time I try to say so much more eloquently.
What's happening now between the boys is long overdue. It won't be easy, but it's necessary and the result will be worth it and appreciated more.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-14 15:12
Holy cow faraway eyes I almost gave up on you. What took ya so long :lol: you are the only reviewer that gives fair, unbiased reviews with such insight as to what is truly going on within the episodes. I agree with every word and I am grateful that you watch this show with open eyes. You go out of your way to illustrate both boys pov's and you point out what both need to do to reach the point of starting to strengthen their bond. You never fail to make this particular fan girl look at an episode with a new understanding I might not have had. At the very least we see things much the same way. I always appreciate that you go about explaining what most of the time I try to say so much more eloquently.
What's happening now between the boys is long overdue. It won't be easy, but it's necessary and the result will be worth it and appreciated more.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-14 15:24
Quoting leah d:
Thank you so much Far Away Eyes. I loved this review. You illustrate so well how I have always seen the brothers. Misunderstandings and miscommunications have been a part of their relationships all along. It is never completely black or white, one completely right or 100% wrong. That is why I love these characters. To see either of the brothers bashed just kills me. And I agree with the
hopeful view of their relationship. As hard as it is to watch, maybe this will lead to better understanding while still letting each brother retain what makes them special. I have noticed also that even when Sam and Dean are at the lowest ebbs in their relationsip they still work together effortlessly as a team. They set their own crap aside. You can see how in sync they are and how they always have each others back no matter what.


I'm with you ;-)
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-14 15:24
Quote:
Thank you so much Far Away Eyes. I loved this review. You illustrate so well how I have always seen the brothers. Misunderstandings and miscommunications have been a part of their relationships all along. It is never completely black or white, one completely right or 100% wrong. That is why I love these characters. To see either of the brothers bashed just kills me. And I agree with the
hopeful view of their relationship. As hard as it is to watch, maybe this will lead to better understanding while still letting each brother retain what makes them special. I have noticed also that even when Sam and Dean are at the lowest ebbs in their relationsip they still work together effortlessly as a team. They set their own crap aside. You can see how in sync they are and how they always have each others back no matter what.
I'm with you ;-)
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-14 15:34
#6 so Dean making decisions about how he will behave if Sam is ill or dying is Dean making decisions about how Dean will behave in that circumstance and is not making decisions for Sam? Because it's a two way street right? Or are you saying only Sam has the morales and ethics to make a proper decision?
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-14 15:34
#6 so Dean making decisions about how he will behave if Sam is ill or dying is Dean making decisions about how Dean will behave in that circumstance and is not making decisions for Sam? Because it's a two way street right? Or are you saying only Sam has the morales and ethics to make a proper decision?
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-14 16:43
Quoting Prix68:
#6 so Dean making decisions about how he will behave if Sam is ill or dying is Dean making decisions about how Dean will behave in that circumstance and is not making decisions for Sam?


This is a tricky situation for sure :D

When making decisions on behalf of someone else you should take into account your own ethics but also the morals & feelings of the person for whom you are making the decision. That is what Power of Attorney and Living Wills are for. You choose someone you trust to carry out your wishes in case of crises.

Now, the boys are in such complicated circumstances I think they need a VERY detailed list of things they can and cannot do to save each other.

For example, I think Dean would outlaw Sam drinking demon blood in order to save Dean. Fair enough. I think Sam should make it very clear that he never, ever wants to be possessed under any circumstances. That way, hopefully neither of them can get angry at the other for saving/not saving each other.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-14 16:43
Quote:
#6 so Dean making decisions about how he will behave if Sam is ill or dying is Dean making decisions about how Dean will behave in that circumstance and is not making decisions for Sam?
This is a tricky situation for sure :D

When making decisions on behalf of someone else you should take into account your own ethics but also the morals & feelings of the person for whom you are making the decision. That is what Power of Attorney and Living Wills are for. You choose someone you trust to carry out your wishes in case of crises.

Now, the boys are in such complicated circumstances I think they need a VERY detailed list of things they can and cannot do to save each other.

For example, I think Dean would outlaw Sam drinking demon blood in order to save Dean. Fair enough. I think Sam should make it very clear that he never, ever wants to be possessed under any circumstances. That way, hopefully neither of them can get angry at the other for saving/not saving each other.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-14 16:51
Well, they probably WOULD get angry at each other anyway, cos they're like that. But at least the other one would be able to say 'BUT look at the agreement!' or 'well, we hadn't covered that, so I took my best guess'
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-14 16:51
Well, they probably WOULD get angry at each other anyway, cos they're like that. But at least the other one would be able to say 'BUT look at the agreement!' or 'well, we hadn't covered that, so I took my best guess'
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-14 16:54
Well, they probably WOULD get angry at each other anyway, cos they're like that. But at least the other one would be able to say 'BUT look at the agreement!' or 'well, we hadn't covered that, so I took my best guess'.

Someone wrote a lovely article saying that both the boys were acting towards the other in the way they wanted to be treated themselves. Unfortunately, they wanted the opposite things. If only they would TALK...
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-14 16:54
Well, they probably WOULD get angry at each other anyway, cos they're like that. But at least the other one would be able to say 'BUT look at the agreement!' or 'well, we hadn't covered that, so I took my best guess'.

Someone wrote a lovely article saying that both the boys were acting towards the other in the way they wanted to be treated themselves. Unfortunately, they wanted the opposite things. If only they would TALK...
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-14 17:06
I like percyowner's solution. Let Cas have power of attorney over them both. Problem solved.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-14 17:06
I like percyowner's solution. Let Cas have power of attorney over them both. Problem solved.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-14 17:06
Quoting Prix68:
#6 so Dean making decisions about how he will behave if Sam is ill or dying is Dean making decisions about how Dean will behave in that circumstance and is not making decisions for Sam? Because it's a two way street right? Or are you saying only Sam has the morales and ethics to make a proper decision?


Dean made the decision to turn Sam's body over to the first wandering angel who showed up. His credential check was laughable, but even then he made Sam's body into a puppet for the angel formerly known as Zeke. Sam had no notice that Dean would violate him in that way. Maybe he should have assumed Dean was willing to enslave him to the angel formerly known as Zeke, but hey he trusted Dean more than that. And then Dean gave him no notice that he had, in fact, given Sam's body over to the angel formerly known as Zeke. Sam also told Dean that dying didn't bother him.

Sam has stated that he won't do to Dean what was done to him. That if Dean is dying he will not give Dean's body over to something that will then wander around killing people Dean has never met and people he considers a friend.

I don't have any close Christian Scientist friends, but if I did I would not order them to take medical treatments that they consider immoral. I would also not give them the power over my medical decisions if they said they would not authorize medical treatment for me.

I don't understand equating taking away Sam's control of his body with refusing to go past a certain line in keeping Dean alive. It implies that Sam has no right to control his own body if Dean has a different opinion. I disagree.

As to the issue of morals, although I personally agree with Sam's morals. However that doesn't mean Dean doesn't have morals, they simply differ from mine. Dean should live by those morals, however, the line for that is when his morals keep another human being from having autonomy their own bodies. Basically Dean's morals stop at Sam's nose, and Sam's nose doesn't want an angel breathing out of it. Sam has forewarned Dean of what his limits are. Dean can now decide he wants a hunting partner who is willing to do anything to keep him alive. As I suggested, Cas may be an alternative.

Dean did not let Sam know the lines he would cross and then refused to let Sam uncross those lines EVEN THOUGH IT WAS SAM'S BODY BEING USED.

You don't like the Doc Benton analogy, because you don't. Since you've decided to push the issue I will point out that Doc Benton decided to use living donors. Amy proved that if one is creative (and both Sam and Dean are creative) one can find organs that are no longer being used by their original owners and that do not require them to die to supply them because you know organ donors exist in this world.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-14 17:06
Quote:
#6 so Dean making decisions about how he will behave if Sam is ill or dying is Dean making decisions about how Dean will behave in that circumstance and is not making decisions for Sam? Because it's a two way street right? Or are you saying only Sam has the morales and ethics to make a proper decision?
Dean made the decision to turn Sam's body over to the first wandering angel who showed up. His credential check was laughable, but even then he made Sam's body into a puppet for the angel formerly known as Zeke. Sam had no notice that Dean would violate him in that way. Maybe he should have assumed Dean was willing to enslave him to the angel formerly known as Zeke, but hey he trusted Dean more than that. And then Dean gave him no notice that he had, in fact, given Sam's body over to the angel formerly known as Zeke. Sam also told Dean that dying didn't bother him.

Sam has stated that he won't do to Dean what was done to him. That if Dean is dying he will not give Dean's body over to something that will then wander around killing people Dean has never met and people he considers a friend.

I don't have any close Christian Scientist friends, but if I did I would not order them to take medical treatments that they consider immoral. I would also not give them the power over my medical decisions if they said they would not authorize medical treatment for me.

I don't understand equating taking away Sam's control of his body with refusing to go past a certain line in keeping Dean alive. It implies that Sam has no right to control his own body if Dean has a different opinion. I disagree.

As to the issue of morals, although I personally agree with Sam's morals. However that doesn't mean Dean doesn't have morals, they simply differ from mine. Dean should live by those morals, however, the line for that is when his morals keep another human being from having autonomy their own bodies. Basically Dean's morals stop at Sam's nose, and Sam's nose doesn't want an angel breathing out of it. Sam has forewarned Dean of what his limits are. Dean can now decide he wants a hunting partner who is willing to do anything to keep him alive. As I suggested, Cas may be an alternative.

Dean did not let Sam know the lines he would cross and then refused to let Sam uncross those lines EVEN THOUGH IT WAS SAM'S BODY BEING USED.

You don't like the Doc Benton analogy, because you don't. Since you've decided to push the issue I will point out that Doc Benton decided to use living donors. Amy proved that if one is creative (and both Sam and Dean are creative) one can find organs that are no longer being used by their original owners and that do not require them to die to supply them because you know organ donors exist in this world.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-02-14 17:30
@17 Nappi 815: You forgot Bardicvoice. She always gives great, balanced reviews with a minimum if hysterics.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-02-14 17:30
@17 Nappi 815: You forgot Bardicvoice. She always gives great, balanced reviews with a minimum if hysterics.
eilf
# eilf 2014-02-14 17:39
Here's the thing. Sam said 'same circumstances' he wouldn't do the same thing.

But the 'same circumstances' is he wouldn't go against what he knew Dean wouldn't want him to do to save Dean (we all know exactly how Dean would have reacted to discovering he had been possessed by an angel for months and Sam had lied to him for months, and in that time his body had been used to kill Kevin).

OK to recap:
Dean knew before he did it that Sam wouldn't want to be possessed and if he had known ahead of time he would have known that Sam wouldn't have wanted to survive at the expense of Kevin. He knew Sam was going to be angry about it and he knew why and that it would be justified anger. These are the sorts of lines Sam didn't want to have crossed for his benefit. These are the lines Dean did cross and that is what Sam is trying to get through to him.

So in the same circumstances (I think these words need to be repeated as often as possible) Sam said he would not do that to Dean. ie: would not go to any and all lengths to save him in a way that Dean couldn't live with.

But at this stage Dean has made it clear that as far as he is concerned there is no uncrossable line if Sam wants to prove he is faithful to Dean. If Sam doesn't put saving him before anything else then Sam doesn't love him enough.

Therefore Sam can 100% stick to what he said and STILL do literally whatever it takes to stop Dean from being dead. Because for him the circumstances will never be the same - Sam has uncrossable lines for his own life, Dean doesn't (but only when it comes to Sam, Dean would die to save people, no problem, but Sam can't ever let that sacrifice stand because, 'love', 'more of a brother' (the actual phrase), 'lied from the moment you got in my car' etc.)

With that understanding I assume Dean will be willing to be responsible for / live with (literally) whatever the consequences are:
Sam being dead,
the apocalypse restarting,
the world ending,
the sun going out ...

If it is the first one then Dean now has the opportunity to do for Sam what Sam did for him and obey his wishes (In Sam's case: not to be brought back under any and all circumstances, but to be left to rest in peace).

Simple.

Or maybe Dean could stop being so guilty and stop being so unfair in his judgement of how he feels Sam feels about him and could see him clearly for the first time, possibly ever. Perhaps then he could take comfort in the fact that the person he loves most in the world actually loves him as much but just shows it in a different way.

(Chick flick moment! it's Valentines Day, don't judge me ;-) )
eilf
# eilf 2014-02-14 17:39
Here's the thing. Sam said 'same circumstances' he wouldn't do the same thing.

But the 'same circumstances' is he wouldn't go against what he knew Dean wouldn't want him to do to save Dean (we all know exactly how Dean would have reacted to discovering he had been possessed by an angel for months and Sam had lied to him for months, and in that time his body had been used to kill Kevin).

OK to recap:
Dean knew before he did it that Sam wouldn't want to be possessed and if he had known ahead of time he would have known that Sam wouldn't have wanted to survive at the expense of Kevin. He knew Sam was going to be angry about it and he knew why and that it would be justified anger. These are the sorts of lines Sam didn't want to have crossed for his benefit. These are the lines Dean did cross and that is what Sam is trying to get through to him.

So in the same circumstances (I think these words need to be repeated as often as possible) Sam said he would not do that to Dean. ie: would not go to any and all lengths to save him in a way that Dean couldn't live with.

But at this stage Dean has made it clear that as far as he is concerned there is no uncrossable line if Sam wants to prove he is faithful to Dean. If Sam doesn't put saving him before anything else then Sam doesn't love him enough.

Therefore Sam can 100% stick to what he said and STILL do literally whatever it takes to stop Dean from being dead. Because for him the circumstances will never be the same - Sam has uncrossable lines for his own life, Dean doesn't (but only when it comes to Sam, Dean would die to save people, no problem, but Sam can't ever let that sacrifice stand because, 'love', 'more of a brother' (the actual phrase), 'lied from the moment you got in my car' etc.)

With that understanding I assume Dean will be willing to be responsible for / live with (literally) whatever the consequences are:
Sam being dead,
the apocalypse restarting,
the world ending,
the sun going out ...

If it is the first one then Dean now has the opportunity to do for Sam what Sam did for him and obey his wishes (In Sam's case: not to be brought back under any and all circumstances, but to be left to rest in peace).

Simple.

Or maybe Dean could stop being so guilty and stop being so unfair in his judgement of how he feels Sam feels about him and could see him clearly for the first time, possibly ever. Perhaps then he could take comfort in the fact that the person he loves most in the world actually loves him as much but just shows it in a different way.

(Chick flick moment! it's Valentines Day, don't judge me ;-) )
E
# E 2014-02-14 18:05
Quoting Prix68:
I don't think the Dr. Benton parallel is a good one since the body parts would be coming from unwilling victims and would not have saved Dean from going to hell or completely healed him.


Sorry Prix68 I am going to have to disagree with you, with respect though!. You are discussing situation particulars and I am talking overall moral similarities and in that way the two situations are very similar IMO, and clearly show Dean's double standard when it comes to how he dictates his own moral code and his moral code for Sam. In Time is on My Side, Sam was trying to save Dean at all costs, including considering killing people to use their body parts to keep Dean alive. Dean felt that that was no quality of life, he flatly refused, likening staying alive in that way to becoming a monster. He said he'd rather go to hell then do something like that; not even just die, but go to hell. Dean insisted and Sam capitulated even though he didn't want to. He respected Dean's wishes even though he was sure that this was possibly the only way to get Dean out of his deal; and it might have been as Dean died and went to hell shortly afterwards. SInce season 2, it has been well established that Sam would rather die than be possessed again after Meg and giving himself over to Lucifer. He'd rather die than be used by another entity to kill innocents and begged Death to make sure he could never be used in this way again. Sam's state of mind on this subject was clear to Dean, as Dean stated in episode 9x1, but Dean did not respect Sam's wishes and resorted to trickery to get Sam to do what HE thought was best, not what he knew Sam wanted. The 'unwilling victims' Dean was worried about in TIOMS are no different then the innocent victims Sam is worried about every time he's used as a tool for a supernatural entity as glaringly evidenced by poor Kevin. In each instance it was about keeping the other brother alive at all costs. In that way these situations are in fact identical, just with radically different outcomes.

Quoting Prix68:
The problem is that it's fine for Sam to set limits on how far he wants Dean to go to save him but he has now decided he can also set limits on how far he is willing to go to save Dean and has. So in essence Sam now is making decisions for Dean as well as himself.


I am not sure what you mean here… of course Sam can set limits on how far he's willing to go to save Dean as that is Sam making decision about his own actions. Why should Dean get to dictate those actions? Then we would be right back to where we are now which is Dean gets to decide what Sam does, what he should do and how he acts… I am sorry that Sam's decisions are not to Dean's liking, but its Sam's right to make these decisions for himself, to follow his own moral code. Dean has his own moral code and expects others to follow it, but then feels he's allowed to dictate to Sam how he's going to act in any given situation? Nope, double standard again IMO.

Quoting Prix68:
Sam made the decision not to look for Dean and now says he wouldn't save Dean if possession is involved. Dean believed that Sam would look for him and would have him possessed by an angel to save him. Sam is not just expecting his wishes about himself to be respected but is putting them into action where Dean is concerned whether Dean agrees or not. That is a profound gap IMO.


This is exactly the core of the problem I think.; Dean does not trust Sam to make the decisions that Dean wants him to make, so he continually steps in to make decisions FOR Sam so that Dean can get what he wants regardless of weather it is what Sam wants. I am not saying that all of Sam's decisions are good ones; clearly there have been some doozies in the bad decision department, but it is Sam's right to decide and then it's Dean's obligation to abide by those decisions even if he thinks that they are wrong. That's trust and equality, something currently very lacking in the brother relationship.
Dean is constantly making decisions that Sam does not agree with and often they argue, but in general Sam does not dictate to Dean how he should act and he has never circumvented Dean's decisions to affect the outcome he'd rather have through trickery. Sam by and large respects Dean's RIGHT to decide for himself, even if he doesn't always like or agree with the decision. I am sorry that Dean was not happy to learn that Sam didn't look for him in Purgatory, and quite frankly neither was I, but it was in fact Sam's right to decide weather to look or not to look. If Dean is dying and the only way to save him is to have him possessed by Crowley or Metatron and Dean says he'd rather die, then Sam will let him die as is also Sam's prerogative as he is willing to honor Dean's moral code. I don't see this as a gap at all, its perfectly logical, it just isn't what Dean wants.
E
# E 2014-02-14 18:05
Quote:
I don't think the Dr. Benton parallel is a good one since the body parts would be coming from unwilling victims and would not have saved Dean from going to hell or completely healed him.

Sorry Prix68 I am going to have to disagree with you, with respect though!. You are discussing situation particulars and I am talking overall moral similarities and in that way the two situations are very similar IMO, and clearly show Dean's double standard when it comes to how he dictates his own moral code and his moral code for Sam. In Time is on My Side, Sam was trying to save Dean at all costs, including considering killing people to use their body parts to keep Dean alive. Dean felt that that was no quality of life, he flatly refused, likening staying alive in that way to becoming a monster. He said he'd rather go to hell then do something like that; not even just die, but go to hell. Dean insisted and Sam capitulated even though he didn't want to. He respected Dean's wishes even though he was sure that this was possibly the only way to get Dean out of his deal; and it might have been as Dean died and went to hell shortly afterwards. SInce season 2, it has been well established that Sam would rather die than be possessed again after Meg and giving himself over to Lucifer. He'd rather die than be used by another entity to kill innocents and begged Death to make sure he could never be used in this way again. Sam's state of mind on this subject was clear to Dean, as Dean stated in episode 9x1, but Dean did not respect Sam's wishes and resorted to trickery to get Sam to do what HE thought was best, not what he knew Sam wanted. The 'unwilling victims' Dean was worried about in TIOMS are no different then the innocent victims Sam is worried about every time he's used as a tool for a supernatural entity as glaringly evidenced by poor Kevin. In each instance it was about keeping the other brother alive at all costs. In that way these situations are in fact identical, just with radically different outcomes.

Quote:
The problem is that it's fine for Sam to set limits on how far he wants Dean to go to save him but he has now decided he can also set limits on how far he is willing to go to save Dean and has. So in essence Sam now is making decisions for Dean as well as himself.
I am not sure what you mean here… of course Sam can set limits on how far he's willing to go to save Dean as that is Sam making decision about his own actions. Why should Dean get to dictate those actions? Then we would be right back to where we are now which is Dean gets to decide what Sam does, what he should do and how he acts… I am sorry that Sam's decisions are not to Dean's liking, but its Sam's right to make these decisions for himself, to follow his own moral code. Dean has his own moral code and expects others to follow it, but then feels he's allowed to dictate to Sam how he's going to act in any given situation? Nope, double standard again IMO.

Quote:
Sam made the decision not to look for Dean and now says he wouldn't save Dean if possession is involved. Dean believed that Sam would look for him and would have him possessed by an angel to save him. Sam is not just expecting his wishes about himself to be respected but is putting them into action where Dean is concerned whether Dean agrees or not. That is a profound gap IMO.
This is exactly the core of the problem I think.; Dean does not trust Sam to make the decisions that Dean wants him to make, so he continually steps in to make decisions FOR Sam so that Dean can get what he wants regardless of weather it is what Sam wants. I am not saying that all of Sam's decisions are good ones; clearly there have been some doozies in the bad decision department, but it is Sam's right to decide and then it's Dean's obligation to abide by those decisions even if he thinks that they are wrong. That's trust and equality, something currently very lacking in the brother relationship.
Dean is constantly making decisions that Sam does not agree with and often they argue, but in general Sam does not dictate to Dean how he should act and he has never circumvented Dean's decisions to affect the outcome he'd rather have through trickery. Sam by and large respects Dean's RIGHT to decide for himself, even if he doesn't always like or agree with the decision. I am sorry that Dean was not happy to learn that Sam didn't look for him in Purgatory, and quite frankly neither was I, but it was in fact Sam's right to decide weather to look or not to look. If Dean is dying and the only way to save him is to have him possessed by Crowley or Metatron and Dean says he'd rather die, then Sam will let him die as is also Sam's prerogative as he is willing to honor Dean's moral code. I don't see this as a gap at all, its perfectly logical, it just isn't what Dean wants.
Gwen
# Gwen 2014-02-14 18:18
Thank you once again for another unbiased, balanced, fair, beautifully detailed review. I have been very much looking forward to your review and, as usual, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.
It's good to see Sam getting some sympathy and understanding as well as Dean. It's very much appreciated.

Quote:
When he is indignant and tells Sam that if situations were reversed that Sam would have done the same and Sam replies, “No, Dean, I wouldn't---same circumstances, I wouldn't,” he can't simply stop at hearing, “I wouldn't.” That's not what Sam is saying at all. Instead, Sam is telling him that he would respect Dean's wishes---even if he didn't agree with or like them.
Yes. Exactly. Thank you.

The misunderstandin gs really have caused a hell of a load of trouble and heartache for the boys over the years. Hopefully now the boys will be moving towards a better understanding of each other.
Gwen
# Gwen 2014-02-14 18:18
Thank you once again for another unbiased, balanced, fair, beautifully detailed review. I have been very much looking forward to your review and, as usual, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.
It's good to see Sam getting some sympathy and understanding as well as Dean. It's very much appreciated.

Quote:
When he is indignant and tells Sam that if situations were reversed that Sam would have done the same and Sam replies, “No, Dean, I wouldn't---same circumstances, I wouldn't,” he can't simply stop at hearing, “I wouldn't.” That's not what Sam is saying at all. Instead, Sam is telling him that he would respect Dean's wishes---even if he didn't agree with or like them.
Yes. Exactly. Thank you.

The misunderstandin gs really have caused a hell of a load of trouble and heartache for the boys over the years. Hopefully now the boys will be moving towards a better understanding of each other.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-14 18:38
delete
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-14 18:38
delete
E
# E 2014-02-14 18:48
Quoting Prix68:
#6 so Dean making decisions about how he will behave if Sam is ill or dying is Dean making decisions about how Dean will behave in that circumstance and is not making decisions for Sam? Because it's a two way street right? Or are you saying only Sam has the morales and ethics to make a proper decision?


I can see your point here… when is Dean acting on his own beliefs and perhaps going against what he knows of Sam's desires? I do think Dean was doing what he thought was the best thing to do at the time. I think the problem this time is that this is the first time that we've seen one of the brother's decided something, not for themselves, but for the other one, expressly going against the wishes of the one being decided for. What I mean is this: whenever one of the brothers has made a tough decision in the past they have done so on their own behalf, accepting the consequences that will be heaped on them. In season 2, Dean sold his soul to hell to save Sam. Dean was the one who decided and he was the one who paid the ultimate price. Sam did not agree, but it was Dean's decision to give up HIS OWN LIFE for Sam. In season 4, Sam began drinking demon blood and honing his powers to save/get revenge for Dean. Dean did not agree, but Sam made the decision to weather the storm of his decision and accepted the consequences. The difference this time, (and it's the first time, I think) is that Dean made a decision FOR SAM and now Sam is paying the price, a price he would not have even considered paying had the decision been up to him. Now if Dean had made a decision to allow HIMSELF to be possessed and that somehow saved Sam in 9x1, I still think Sam would have been angry, but not feel so betrayed. We've never been in this situation before to my knowledge, and it's added a layer of complexity to the situation of sacrifice and consequences. In this instance Dean did not sacrifice himself, he sacrificed Sam going against Sam's expressed wishes, and now Sam is the one who is paying for actions that are not his own.
E
# E 2014-02-14 18:48
Quote:
#6 so Dean making decisions about how he will behave if Sam is ill or dying is Dean making decisions about how Dean will behave in that circumstance and is not making decisions for Sam? Because it's a two way street right? Or are you saying only Sam has the morales and ethics to make a proper decision?
I can see your point here… when is Dean acting on his own beliefs and perhaps going against what he knows of Sam's desires? I do think Dean was doing what he thought was the best thing to do at the time. I think the problem this time is that this is the first time that we've seen one of the brother's decided something, not for themselves, but for the other one, expressly going against the wishes of the one being decided for. What I mean is this: whenever one of the brothers has made a tough decision in the past they have done so on their own behalf, accepting the consequences that will be heaped on them. In season 2, Dean sold his soul to hell to save Sam. Dean was the one who decided and he was the one who paid the ultimate price. Sam did not agree, but it was Dean's decision to give up HIS OWN LIFE for Sam. In season 4, Sam began drinking demon blood and honing his powers to save/get revenge for Dean. Dean did not agree, but Sam made the decision to weather the storm of his decision and accepted the consequences. The difference this time, (and it's the first time, I think) is that Dean made a decision FOR SAM and now Sam is paying the price, a price he would not have even considered paying had the decision been up to him. Now if Dean had made a decision to allow HIMSELF to be possessed and that somehow saved Sam in 9x1, I still think Sam would have been angry, but not feel so betrayed. We've never been in this situation before to my knowledge, and it's added a layer of complexity to the situation of sacrifice and consequences. In this instance Dean did not sacrifice himself, he sacrificed Sam going against Sam's expressed wishes, and now Sam is the one who is paying for actions that are not his own.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-14 20:00
Lovely review. Thank you.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-14 20:00
Lovely review. Thank you.
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-14 20:26
Quoting SueB:
Good review. I'm really glad you picked up on the parallels of the purging Maritza did and getting the toxins out of the brother's relationship. I think this is the only review which, correctly IMO, points out that what Maritza does for her client is not actually a good thing. Easy weight loss like that is not healthy nor long lasting.

I think there's a little more toxicity in the exchange between the brothers that showed and I think those toxins also need to be purged.

It's not just responding with denial's and quips that Dean needs to get out of his system. It's also some of the anger he holds onto for Sam letting go so easily. Sam didn't look for him in purgatory. Sam left the family time and time again. Dean's angry about that and he holds himself somewhat superior to Sam because of it. It's not just hurt that Dean feels regarding Sam's behavior. Dean feels Sam is fundamentally wrong about how he's treated Dean/family over the years. The audience feels like Sam is wrong too (hence the anger over the decision to not look for Dean in Purgatory is still a toxic subject).

Sam, OTOH, needs to get his resentment over his big brother controlling attitude. While it's true that he was only being honest in "Sharp Teeth", it's a dig at Dean. I also think the "bendy" reference was a way to bring up Dean's controlling behavior with Lisa/Ben. Dean told Sam he's break his nose if he ever brought Lisa/Ben up again. And this is the time that Sam choose to make a reference? It's no coincidence. But Dean has no choice but to swallow any outrage at this moment. Finally, he needlessly brings up Dean's earlier obvious lie about being upset about their conversation when Dean opens up to talk at the end. All of these little interactions from Sam's side show the snarky little brother getting digs in because he feels both superior and inferior at the same time.

So while the underlying issues you identified (Dean needing to respect Sam's free-will, Sam needing to recognize his own value is beyond curing Dean's loneliness) are toxic, there's also a level of toxicity in their communication that speaks to even more ancient issues that go back to childhood and their relationship.

At the end of the day, Dean will always be the older brother and take some level of leadership/patriarch role in their relationship. Sam is going to need to stop resenting this and see that it comes from love, not desperation. Dean, OTOH, is going to have to see Sam's running away as not leaving the family so much as trying to find his own identity. Dean needs to lose the grudge he has over these moments and see the world through Sam's eyes. And both brothers have got to stop hurting each other with digs. Some of that is okay when things are right between them. But right now, these digs are old wounds that they are re-opening versus healing.

I truly believe the show runners are trying to purge this negativity out of the relationship. Not perfectly, but to work the underlying issues and not take the fast route. "Purge" was hard to watch because of the level of toxins that are floating around. The audience feels it and we don't like it. But those toxins need to get out and get "purged" so we can get to the underlying issues effectively, without the miscommunication getting in the way. It's a necessary episode, even though it's hard to watch.


Thanks for the comment.

I think, on the surface, it looked like a win-win, but it seems to me that no matter what happens, quick-fix weight loss never works out in the end. The weight comes back---sometime s double what you started with. It just seemed clear to me that purging correctly means enduring the long road, doing each step and being committed to doing it right rather than doing it quickly. That seemed to apply to the brotherly relationship just as much for me.

Really, what made me look at it this way was all the attention the new Biggest Loser winner garnered. I don't watch that show, but I'm from Minnesota, so I saw them talk about her on my local news. She was receiving a lot of criticism for going too far---and then as I thought about the episode it just made sense. Sure, it looks great and it seems to fix problems people have with weight, but they'll have to go back at some point because they'll still eat the same foods.

I agree. The brothers most certainly need to address some of the toxins that are in their relationship. I think that's something everyone needs to do in their own relationships at various points---and here we're seeing them at the very beginning of that process. It's hard. It's slow. It's painful. But I think it's absolutely necessary.

I agree. Both brothers will say things they know will hurt the other. As often was we see demons or angels taunt or throw barbs at the brothers to get a rise out of them, some of the most hurtful ones come from the brothers themselves. It's a shared defensive mechanism they have. They need to look at why they say some of those things---each brother---and figure out what triggers them so they can perhaps bring those issues up to one another when they're not heated or hurt as much.

I'm hopeful that we'll see this process bring the brothers closer together by the end.

Thanks again!
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-14 20:26
Quote:
Good review. I'm really glad you picked up on the parallels of the purging Maritza did and getting the toxins out of the brother's relationship. I think this is the only review which, correctly IMO, points out that what Maritza does for her client is not actually a good thing. Easy weight loss like that is not healthy nor long lasting.

I think there's a little more toxicity in the exchange between the brothers that showed and I think those toxins also need to be purged.

It's not just responding with denial's and quips that Dean needs to get out of his system. It's also some of the anger he holds onto for Sam letting go so easily. Sam didn't look for him in purgatory. Sam left the family time and time again. Dean's angry about that and he holds himself somewhat superior to Sam because of it. It's not just hurt that Dean feels regarding Sam's behavior. Dean feels Sam is fundamentally wrong about how he's treated Dean/family over the years. The audience feels like Sam is wrong too (hence the anger over the decision to not look for Dean in Purgatory is still a toxic subject).

Sam, OTOH, needs to get his resentment over his big brother controlling attitude. While it's true that he was only being honest in "Sharp Teeth", it's a dig at Dean. I also think the "bendy" reference was a way to bring up Dean's controlling behavior with Lisa/Ben. Dean told Sam he's break his nose if he ever brought Lisa/Ben up again. And this is the time that Sam choose to make a reference? It's no coincidence. But Dean has no choice but to swallow any outrage at this moment. Finally, he needlessly brings up Dean's earlier obvious lie about being upset about their conversation when Dean opens up to talk at the end. All of these little interactions from Sam's side show the snarky little brother getting digs in because he feels both superior and inferior at the same time.

So while the underlying issues you identified (Dean needing to respect Sam's free-will, Sam needing to recognize his own value is beyond curing Dean's loneliness) are toxic, there's also a level of toxicity in their communication that speaks to even more ancient issues that go back to childhood and their relationship.

At the end of the day, Dean will always be the older brother and take some level of leadership/patriarch role in their relationship. Sam is going to need to stop resenting this and see that it comes from love, not desperation. Dean, OTOH, is going to have to see Sam's running away as not leaving the family so much as trying to find his own identity. Dean needs to lose the grudge he has over these moments and see the world through Sam's eyes. And both brothers have got to stop hurting each other with digs. Some of that is okay when things are right between them. But right now, these digs are old wounds that they are re-opening versus healing.

I truly believe the show runners are trying to purge this negativity out of the relationship. Not perfectly, but to work the underlying issues and not take the fast route. "Purge" was hard to watch because of the level of toxins that are floating around. The audience feels it and we don't like it. But those toxins need to get out and get "purged" so we can get to the underlying issues effectively, without the miscommunication getting in the way. It's a necessary episode, even though it's hard to watch.
Thanks for the comment.

I think, on the surface, it looked like a win-win, but it seems to me that no matter what happens, quick-fix weight loss never works out in the end. The weight comes back---sometime s double what you started with. It just seemed clear to me that purging correctly means enduring the long road, doing each step and being committed to doing it right rather than doing it quickly. That seemed to apply to the brotherly relationship just as much for me.

Really, what made me look at it this way was all the attention the new Biggest Loser winner garnered. I don't watch that show, but I'm from Minnesota, so I saw them talk about her on my local news. She was receiving a lot of criticism for going too far---and then as I thought about the episode it just made sense. Sure, it looks great and it seems to fix problems people have with weight, but they'll have to go back at some point because they'll still eat the same foods.

I agree. The brothers most certainly need to address some of the toxins that are in their relationship. I think that's something everyone needs to do in their own relationships at various points---and here we're seeing them at the very beginning of that process. It's hard. It's slow. It's painful. But I think it's absolutely necessary.

I agree. Both brothers will say things they know will hurt the other. As often was we see demons or angels taunt or throw barbs at the brothers to get a rise out of them, some of the most hurtful ones come from the brothers themselves. It's a shared defensive mechanism they have. They need to look at why they say some of those things---each brother---and figure out what triggers them so they can perhaps bring those issues up to one another when they're not heated or hurt as much.

I'm hopeful that we'll see this process bring the brothers closer together by the end.

Thanks again!
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-14 20:44
Quoting KG_SPN:
I really enjoy reading your reviews Far Away Eyes and this was no exception. The episode was very aptly named, summing up both the monster and the troubles of 'our boys'. I agree that both Sam and Dean have things to work on before their relationship can be healed and they can work together as equals.

Quote:
What Sam says and what Dean hears might not be the same thing---and this can lead to the misunderstandings that cause friction between the brothers. Those misunderstandings have certainly lead to great heartache for both Sam and Dean over the years.


I also agree with this... and it goes for a lot of the fandom too, particularly after this episode ;-)

Finally, your comment about Jared's performance in the final scene made me smile because for a while there I seriously thought I was the only one to see that Sam was not angry in that final moment. His expression changed to sadness and, I think, resignation that he might never be able to make Dean understand where he was coming from.

Quote:
That final conversation between Sam and Dean tugs at our heartstrings---in large part because Padalecki makes us feel deeply with Sam. We understand and sympathize with him here as he delivers his lines with a subtle sorrow. It's a gut wrenching performance here that lingers long after viewing.
Thank you :-)
Thanks for the comment.

I'm glad you liked my take on the MOTW and the brotherly relationship. I think both brothers need to really work on some things both as individuals and as a brotherly unit---and I felt that "The Purge" started to do just that. In some ways it was a big start and in others it was a small start---but I feel that it was a start.

As for what Sam says and what Dean hears---and vice versa---one of the first thoughts I had after the episode was that these two aren't necessarily hearing what's being said. It's something they need to address.

I did the actors section last---which is unusual for me because that's usually the first thing I write. I was really struck by Sam's expressions in that final scene, and when I watched my second or third time, I really noticed just how much sorrow was in his voice and on his face there. I found that both Ackles and Padalecki showed that Sam and Dean are both full of sorrow here---yet another mirroring of their characters---an d it made me instantly feel for each brother in that moment. I'm glad you thought I captured that.

Thanks again!
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-14 20:44
Quote:
I really enjoy reading your reviews Far Away Eyes and this was no exception. The episode was very aptly named, summing up both the monster and the troubles of 'our boys'. I agree that both Sam and Dean have things to work on before their relationship can be healed and they can work together as equals.

Quote:
What Sam says and what Dean hears might not be the same thing---and this can lead to the misunderstandings that cause friction between the brothers. Those misunderstandings have certainly lead to great heartache for both Sam and Dean over the years.
I also agree with this... and it goes for a lot of the fandom too, particularly after this episode ;-)

Finally, your comment about Jared's performance in the final scene made me smile because for a while there I seriously thought I was the only one to see that Sam was not angry in that final moment. His expression changed to sadness and, I think, resignation that he might never be able to make Dean understand where he was coming from.

Quote:
That final conversation between Sam and Dean tugs at our heartstrings---in large part because Padalecki makes us feel deeply with Sam. We understand and sympathize with him here as he delivers his lines with a subtle sorrow. It's a gut wrenching performance here that lingers long after viewing.
Thank you :-)
Thanks for the comment.

I'm glad you liked my take on the MOTW and the brotherly relationship. I think both brothers need to really work on some things both as individuals and as a brotherly unit---and I felt that "The Purge" started to do just that. In some ways it was a big start and in others it was a small start---but I feel that it was a start.

As for what Sam says and what Dean hears---and vice versa---one of the first thoughts I had after the episode was that these two aren't necessarily hearing what's being said. It's something they need to address.

I did the actors section last---which is unusual for me because that's usually the first thing I write. I was really struck by Sam's expressions in that final scene, and when I watched my second or third time, I really noticed just how much sorrow was in his voice and on his face there. I found that both Ackles and Padalecki showed that Sam and Dean are both full of sorrow here---yet another mirroring of their characters---an d it made me instantly feel for each brother in that moment. I'm glad you thought I captured that.

Thanks again!
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-14 20:45
Quoting Manzanita Crow:
Lovely review. I'm looking forward to the boys sorting out their issues.


Thanks for the comment!

I am, too. I'm hopeful that we'll see them do that.

Thanks again.
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-14 20:45
Quote:
Lovely review. I'm looking forward to the boys sorting out their issues.
Thanks for the comment!

I am, too. I'm hopeful that we'll see them do that.

Thanks again.
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-14 21:02
Quoting E:
"While Sam says, “I was just being honest,” we can't help but wonder if perhaps Dean is misinterpreting or taking what Sam said a bit further than it was intended. Perhaps this is another thing Dean must purge in his relationship with Sam. What Sam says and what Dean hears might not be the same thing---and this can lead to the misunderstandings that cause friction between the brothers. Those misunderstandings have certainly lead to great heartache for both Sam and Dean over the years."

I couldn't agree with this statement more Far Away Eyes! Not only does Dean do this continually where Sam is concerned, it seems that a huge number of fans do it as well. I have seen so many comments, articles and even reviewers (who should have better insight IMO) claiming that Sam has now stated unequivocally that he will never save his brother ever again for any reason, that he'll just let Dean die and not lift a finger to help him. This is clearly not what Sam said or meant, but his words have been confabulated in a way that is not only incorrect, but unfair to Sam as a character. For some reason, Dean's statements are often taken at face value even if that is clearly not the intention of the writers, and this is one of those times. Just because Dean hears "I won't save you" does not mean that is what Sam said. Sam said "in the same circumstances, I wouldn't," meaning Sam would not let an angel possess Dean (especially without his knowledge or against his will) to save him from death. Thats it, angel possession only; against his will only. Sam would have rather died than be possessed and tricked, and so would have Dean IMO, especially given his reaction to creepy Dr. Benton in season 3's Time is on My Side where he made it clear that life at any cost was not good enough for him. He demanded at that time that Sam abide by his decision which Sam did. Sam understands and respects this, and Dean does not, at least not when it comes to Sam. Dean misinterprets things Sam says often, and so do the critics and the fans nearly as often. Thank you so much for providing what I feel is a much more balanced and accurate view of what is going on with our beloved brothers. The blame does not lie exclusively at one door, this is a problem that has been a lifetime in the making and both brothers need to work on their issues if they are ever going to move forward as human beings and become brothers once again.


Thanks for the comment.

I'm glad you feel my review was balanced. I see both brothers as being fundamental, and so I want to understand each of them. I think both brothers need to rethink what the other one says sometimes---let it settle and take time to understand it before reacting. I saw that again, here.

I don't know that the Dr. Benton example is exactly parallel, but I agree. Dean said "No," and Sam respected that. I think that's the crux of things for Sam right now. He'd save Dean, yes, but if Dean said "No," again he'd respect that. That's all Sam's saying here. That being said, I think that's only the start of this conversation for the brothers. This is one statement, an ice breaker if you will. They'll have more conversations, I hope, that expand on this so that Sam can perhaps at least get Dean to see what he's saying. I"m also hoping that Sam will listen to Dean about some things, too. They both need to do that.

Thanks again!
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-14 21:02
Quote:
"While Sam says, “I was just being honest,” we can't help but wonder if perhaps Dean is misinterpreting or taking what Sam said a bit further than it was intended. Perhaps this is another thing Dean must purge in his relationship with Sam. What Sam says and what Dean hears might not be the same thing---and this can lead to the misunderstandings that cause friction between the brothers. Those misunderstandings have certainly lead to great heartache for both Sam and Dean over the years."

I couldn't agree with this statement more Far Away Eyes! Not only does Dean do this continually where Sam is concerned, it seems that a huge number of fans do it as well. I have seen so many comments, articles and even reviewers (who should have better insight IMO) claiming that Sam has now stated unequivocally that he will never save his brother ever again for any reason, that he'll just let Dean die and not lift a finger to help him. This is clearly not what Sam said or meant, but his words have been confabulated in a way that is not only incorrect, but unfair to Sam as a character. For some reason, Dean's statements are often taken at face value even if that is clearly not the intention of the writers, and this is one of those times. Just because Dean hears "I won't save you" does not mean that is what Sam said. Sam said "in the same circumstances, I wouldn't," meaning Sam would not let an angel possess Dean (especially without his knowledge or against his will) to save him from death. Thats it, angel possession only; against his will only. Sam would have rather died than be possessed and tricked, and so would have Dean IMO, especially given his reaction to creepy Dr. Benton in season 3's Time is on My Side where he made it clear that life at any cost was not good enough for him. He demanded at that time that Sam abide by his decision which Sam did. Sam understands and respects this, and Dean does not, at least not when it comes to Sam. Dean misinterprets things Sam says often, and so do the critics and the fans nearly as often. Thank you so much for providing what I feel is a much more balanced and accurate view of what is going on with our beloved brothers. The blame does not lie exclusively at one door, this is a problem that has been a lifetime in the making and both brothers need to work on their issues if they are ever going to move forward as human beings and become brothers once again.
Thanks for the comment.

I'm glad you feel my review was balanced. I see both brothers as being fundamental, and so I want to understand each of them. I think both brothers need to rethink what the other one says sometimes---let it settle and take time to understand it before reacting. I saw that again, here.

I don't know that the Dr. Benton example is exactly parallel, but I agree. Dean said "No," and Sam respected that. I think that's the crux of things for Sam right now. He'd save Dean, yes, but if Dean said "No," again he'd respect that. That's all Sam's saying here. That being said, I think that's only the start of this conversation for the brothers. This is one statement, an ice breaker if you will. They'll have more conversations, I hope, that expand on this so that Sam can perhaps at least get Dean to see what he's saying. I"m also hoping that Sam will listen to Dean about some things, too. They both need to do that.

Thanks again!
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-14 21:15
damn ike, you called me out on this one, bardic voice is also very fair in her reviews. they are so sporadic, i totally forgot about her. thanks for the reminder.

cheryl i agree with what you said although i don't see it here anymore. i agree that sam believed dean to be dead in s8. now whether sam believed it right away or whether he convinced himself that was the case his actions were based on his belief that his brother was dead. ( personally i always believed sam convinced himself dean was dead. here's a bit of psych 101. see i thought it was an unconcious way of sam protecting himself. if dean is missing then sam really has no way on this earth to know where he went and how to get him back. he had no road map. he has no where to start and no one to help him. there's nothing he could do and thus sam would yet again fail his brother in his mind . but believing dean was dead is something that is more acceptable for sam. sam accepting dean's death and abiding their promise is a path that doesn't end in sam failing his brother. on the contrary, sam is respecting his brother's wishes. don't get me wrong, sam believed dean was dead. the mind is a powerful thing and it will do what it takes to protect itself. i think it was all done unconsciously. i don't believe sam has any idea that he convinced himself dean was dead as opposed to that instantaneous belief that he was dead if you get my meaning) as a matter of fact, i think the first eppy of season 8 ties in very well with this eppy.

sam made it quite clear that he thought dean was dead. he told dean, i thought you were dead. it's hard to stay in the family business when it killed your whole family. can't get much clearer than that.
we've also learned that a promise had been made by the boys that if either of them died they would let it be. given dean's past attitude regarding what his father did to save him, his speeches to sam how what's dead should stay dead, how it was unnatural, he should've stayed dead and look what's become of it. given bobby's speech about when it's your time to go ...go. given sam's experiences of what happens when you go to extremes, sam honored this promise. he believed his brother dead and he accepted it. he didn't do anything to change it. he respected his brother's wishes, even though he grieved for dean and was totally broken by his death. even when he ran away from hunting and the responsibility that went with the job, even staying with someone he didn't love, simply to hold onto the lifeline she provided. ironically, respecting dean's wishes bit him in the proverbial ass.
sam explained to dean that he thought he was dead. that he broke and drove for months til he hit the dog. ...dean's response to all of that was...was there a girl. sam said there was and then there wasn't. with that, dean proclaimed that sam left him in purgatory for a girl. this brings up the point farawayeyes brought up regarding dean's ability to hear what he wants to hear and not really listening to all of what sam says.
sam's decision in s8 was based on his respect for his brother and what he wanted despite how much it hurt sam. sam's revelation to dean that in the same circumstances, he wouldn't do what dean did, simply goes back to his deep respect for his brother's wishes despite the hurt that losing his brother would cause sam. the way i see it, that's putting dean before sam. the only word i could think to use to describe this is.......LOVE.

jmo of course.

happy valentines day everyone.... :D
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-14 21:15
damn ike, you called me out on this one, bardic voice is also very fair in her reviews. they are so sporadic, i totally forgot about her. thanks for the reminder.

cheryl i agree with what you said although i don't see it here anymore. i agree that sam believed dean to be dead in s8. now whether sam believed it right away or whether he convinced himself that was the case his actions were based on his belief that his brother was dead. ( personally i always believed sam convinced himself dean was dead. here's a bit of psych 101. see i thought it was an unconcious way of sam protecting himself. if dean is missing then sam really has no way on this earth to know where he went and how to get him back. he had no road map. he has no where to start and no one to help him. there's nothing he could do and thus sam would yet again fail his brother in his mind . but believing dean was dead is something that is more acceptable for sam. sam accepting dean's death and abiding their promise is a path that doesn't end in sam failing his brother. on the contrary, sam is respecting his brother's wishes. don't get me wrong, sam believed dean was dead. the mind is a powerful thing and it will do what it takes to protect itself. i think it was all done unconsciously. i don't believe sam has any idea that he convinced himself dean was dead as opposed to that instantaneous belief that he was dead if you get my meaning) as a matter of fact, i think the first eppy of season 8 ties in very well with this eppy.

sam made it quite clear that he thought dean was dead. he told dean, i thought you were dead. it's hard to stay in the family business when it killed your whole family. can't get much clearer than that.
we've also learned that a promise had been made by the boys that if either of them died they would let it be. given dean's past attitude regarding what his father did to save him, his speeches to sam how what's dead should stay dead, how it was unnatural, he should've stayed dead and look what's become of it. given bobby's speech about when it's your time to go ...go. given sam's experiences of what happens when you go to extremes, sam honored this promise. he believed his brother dead and he accepted it. he didn't do anything to change it. he respected his brother's wishes, even though he grieved for dean and was totally broken by his death. even when he ran away from hunting and the responsibility that went with the job, even staying with someone he didn't love, simply to hold onto the lifeline she provided. ironically, respecting dean's wishes bit him in the proverbial ass.
sam explained to dean that he thought he was dead. that he broke and drove for months til he hit the dog. ...dean's response to all of that was...was there a girl. sam said there was and then there wasn't. with that, dean proclaimed that sam left him in purgatory for a girl. this brings up the point farawayeyes brought up regarding dean's ability to hear what he wants to hear and not really listening to all of what sam says.
sam's decision in s8 was based on his respect for his brother and what he wanted despite how much it hurt sam. sam's revelation to dean that in the same circumstances, he wouldn't do what dean did, simply goes back to his deep respect for his brother's wishes despite the hurt that losing his brother would cause sam. the way i see it, that's putting dean before sam. the only word i could think to use to describe this is.......LOVE.

jmo of course.

happy valentines day everyone.... :D
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-14 22:02
Quoting Sandra K:
How is it that coming away from reading your review I feel like I just saw the episode for the first time and saw so much more to it!

Right when I thought I had diced it up as much as it could go, when I had dig as deep as I thought possible to see the why and how behind both of their actions and words, you have revealed to me that when you look at these Winchester brothers with "far away eyes" you get the bigger and more balanced picture.
I appreciate how you are able to dig up and flesh out each side without making sides - Since I haven't ever been able to take sides, it is such a pleasure and a huge relief to see what you have done here. And you weave the theme of the episode with the major thread of the conflict between these boys so aptly that I'm left to marvel at the workings of your mind.

You've also made me feel better about those bickering lines, which seemed a bit teenager-ish and I didn't like them, but now that you have shed your light on it, it actually makes me feel better.

This perspective has made the next two weeks tolerable. I hate it when those two are hurting and having been left with those pained faces and words for weeks has been hard.
How is it that you are able to infuse optimism in to your reviews?


In short, awesome review.
:)



Thanks for the comment.

I'm glad you enjoyed my take on this episode. I may be a Sam Girl more or less, but I want to understand both of them. I see their stories both as parallel and intertwined all at once. That's what fascinates me and as I thought about this episode I wanted to see each thread and how they wove together to get the whole story.

I think a lot of their conversations in this episode had a lot of honesty. They were trying to share things---and I think both brothers chose to hear what they wanted at times, which is something they need to fix. The fact that they're trying to share, however, is key. I think it's a start. Rather than just blowing it off and moving onto the next hunt, they're working on issues, albeit slowly.

I like to look at how they got here and understand where they might be going. I'm hopeful we'll see them move through this and emerge stronger for it.

I love that this show is about monsters and supernatural creatures---but I love that it's really about two complex, beautiful men that make me think and feel.

Thanks again!
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-14 22:02
Quote:
How is it that coming away from reading your review I feel like I just saw the episode for the first time and saw so much more to it!

Right when I thought I had diced it up as much as it could go, when I had dig as deep as I thought possible to see the why and how behind both of their actions and words, you have revealed to me that when you look at these Winchester brothers with "far away eyes" you get the bigger and more balanced picture.
I appreciate how you are able to dig up and flesh out each side without making sides - Since I haven't ever been able to take sides, it is such a pleasure and a huge relief to see what you have done here. And you weave the theme of the episode with the major thread of the conflict between these boys so aptly that I'm left to marvel at the workings of your mind.

You've also made me feel better about those bickering lines, which seemed a bit teenager-ish and I didn't like them, but now that you have shed your light on it, it actually makes me feel better.

This perspective has made the next two weeks tolerable. I hate it when those two are hurting and having been left with those pained faces and words for weeks has been hard.
How is it that you are able to infuse optimism in to your reviews?


In short, awesome review.
:)
Thanks for the comment.

I'm glad you enjoyed my take on this episode. I may be a Sam Girl more or less, but I want to understand both of them. I see their stories both as parallel and intertwined all at once. That's what fascinates me and as I thought about this episode I wanted to see each thread and how they wove together to get the whole story.

I think a lot of their conversations in this episode had a lot of honesty. They were trying to share things---and I think both brothers chose to hear what they wanted at times, which is something they need to fix. The fact that they're trying to share, however, is key. I think it's a start. Rather than just blowing it off and moving onto the next hunt, they're working on issues, albeit slowly.

I like to look at how they got here and understand where they might be going. I'm hopeful we'll see them move through this and emerge stronger for it.

I love that this show is about monsters and supernatural creatures---but I love that it's really about two complex, beautiful men that make me think and feel.

Thanks again!
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-14 22:04
Quoting amyh:
Lovely. I hope the boys relationship can/will become healthier.



Thanks for the comment.

I'm very hopeful that it will. I can't wait to see how they get there.

Thanks again.
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-14 22:04
Quote:
Lovely. I hope the boys relationship can/will become healthier.
Thanks for the comment.

I'm very hopeful that it will. I can't wait to see how they get there.

Thanks again.
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-14 22:10
Quoting leah d:
Thank you so much Far Away Eyes. I loved this review. You illustrate so well how I have always seen the brothers. Misunderstandings and miscommunications have been a part of their relationships all along. It is never completely black or white, one completely right or 100% wrong. That is why I love these characters. To see either of the brothers bashed just kills me. And I agree with the hopeful view of their relationship. As hard as it is to watch, maybe this will lead to better understanding while still letting each brother retain what makes them special. I have noticed also that even when Sam and Dean are at the lowest ebbs in their relationsip they still work together effortlessly as a team. They set their own crap aside. You can see how in sync they are and how they always have each others back no matter what.


Thanks for the comment.

I think that's something the brothers need to really see. They misunderstand one another and that's when they really see the most friction. It takes two to tango and to lay all the blame on one brother or the other at any given time is ignoring the fact that they both play parts in their disagreements.

What makes me really drawn to them is how human this story is. Their story is all about struggling to do the right thing and sometimes they don't see the right thing the same way. That's okay. it opens up doors for discussion, and I think that's what we are seeing here.

On my second watch, I really focused in on how Sam and Dean were communicating with body language. I was stunned that they mirrored each other so much. They would sit the same way in those chairs at the spa or on the beds when talking to Mala. They would cross their arms or stand the same way as they do when they talk to Maritza. Their words were saying one thing and their body language was saying something else entirely. I think that's what really gave me a lot of hope for them to work through this.

Thanks again.
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-14 22:10
Quote:
Thank you so much Far Away Eyes. I loved this review. You illustrate so well how I have always seen the brothers. Misunderstandings and miscommunications have been a part of their relationships all along. It is never completely black or white, one completely right or 100% wrong. That is why I love these characters. To see either of the brothers bashed just kills me. And I agree with the hopeful view of their relationship. As hard as it is to watch, maybe this will lead to better understanding while still letting each brother retain what makes them special. I have noticed also that even when Sam and Dean are at the lowest ebbs in their relationsip they still work together effortlessly as a team. They set their own crap aside. You can see how in sync they are and how they always have each others back no matter what.
Thanks for the comment.

I think that's something the brothers need to really see. They misunderstand one another and that's when they really see the most friction. It takes two to tango and to lay all the blame on one brother or the other at any given time is ignoring the fact that they both play parts in their disagreements.

What makes me really drawn to them is how human this story is. Their story is all about struggling to do the right thing and sometimes they don't see the right thing the same way. That's okay. it opens up doors for discussion, and I think that's what we are seeing here.

On my second watch, I really focused in on how Sam and Dean were communicating with body language. I was stunned that they mirrored each other so much. They would sit the same way in those chairs at the spa or on the beds when talking to Mala. They would cross their arms or stand the same way as they do when they talk to Maritza. Their words were saying one thing and their body language was saying something else entirely. I think that's what really gave me a lot of hope for them to work through this.

Thanks again.
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-14 22:17
Quoting anonymousN:
Quote:
he chose to say yes to Dean's plan even if he didn't know what it was.
The dialogue is unclear on what Sam said yes to.Quote:
He chose to stop the Trials
The Sam not trusting Dean is because of his possession and how dean slyly had him possessed and now Sam is having doubts about Dean's motivations about what Dean told and that is why he is adamant about his position IMO.He thinks Dean manipulated him to stop the trial i.e Dean's statements which got Sam to stop may be a lie.
I agree that it's not crystal clear to what Sam said yes, to, but both times when Dean tells him first to stop the Trials and then again when he is in the cabin he turns to Dean for direction. He asks "How do I stop?" and "What do I do?" Each time, that means going along with Dean's plan.

I do think Sam questions what Dean said in the Church---and in that cabin. I think that's another one of those moments where the words are being misinterpreted. Here, Sam's not trusting them. I think Dean meant them---but his actions have opened up that doubt for Sam.

Thanks again.
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-14 22:17
Quote:
Quote:
he chose to say yes to Dean's plan even if he didn't know what it was.
The dialogue is unclear on what Sam said yes to.Quote:
He chose to stop the Trials
The Sam not trusting Dean is because of his possession and how dean slyly had him possessed and now Sam is having doubts about Dean's motivations about what Dean told and that is why he is adamant about his position IMO.He thinks Dean manipulated him to stop the trial i.e Dean's statements which got Sam to stop may be a lie.
I agree that it's not crystal clear to what Sam said yes, to, but both times when Dean tells him first to stop the Trials and then again when he is in the cabin he turns to Dean for direction. He asks "How do I stop?" and "What do I do?" Each time, that means going along with Dean's plan.

I do think Sam questions what Dean said in the Church---and in that cabin. I think that's another one of those moments where the words are being misinterpreted. Here, Sam's not trusting them. I think Dean meant them---but his actions have opened up that doubt for Sam.

Thanks again.
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-14 22:37
Quoting Sylvie:
Thank you Far Away Eyes, I really enjoyed this review. In fact I'm not going to call what you do reviews anymore, they are much more like essays. So, loved your essay. ;-)

If anybody needs to purge something from their conscience it's both Sam & Dean. I for one am glad to see things come out in the open. I'm in the process of rewatching season 7, and yesterday was "The Mentalists" in which Sam was pretty PO'd at Dean after the whole Amy debacle, but by the end he could see that what Dean did was for the best. In "The Purge", Sam is not PO'd at Dean, in fact, I still found that they acted very much like themselves, i.e. the brotherly interaction was there. Yes, Sam is very standoffish, but the worry he felt for Dean when he got the phone call was genuine concern. I know a lot of the fandom, and quite a few reviewers, do not care for the road the brotherly bond is going down, but I think it shows maturity and growth. Dean needs to understand where Sam is coming from, and Sam needs to understand Dean's motivations.

And KG_SPN, I agree with you on this:
-Quote:
Finally, your comment about Jared's performance in the final scene made me smile because for a while there I seriously thought I was the only one to see that Sam was not angry in that final moment. His expression changed to sadness and, I think, resignation that he might never be able to make Dean understand where he was coming from.
That's how I perceived it also, there was such sadness in his face, there was no anger. He really wants Dean to understand him in his decision.

Phew, that was a long one. :D
Thanks for the comment.

I've never quite seen my reviews as typical, actually. I don't really do a "thumbs up or thumbs down" style. I blame college workshops. We couldn't simply say "I liked it or didn't like it." We always had to analyze. It was part of the "craft and theory" part of the mix. I think you're right. They're more essay than review. I'll take that as a compliment.

When Sam got that phone call from Dean, he was at first grateful because it gave him that chance to duck Donna before she could totally blow his cover and then it morphed to a frantic near panic as he started to search for Dean. Once he realized what had happened it turned to fury and he was really angry with that cook. It really stuck out to me in light of that final conversation in this episode and it made me rethink that whole moment.

I think Sam and Dean really have a lot of pressure put upon them by what they do and what they've faced so it's no wonder they have issues and difficulties with one another. In many ways, that makes this a realistic relationship for me.

I'm glad you liked my take on Jared's performance, too.

Thanks again.
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-14 22:37
Quote:
Thank you Far Away Eyes, I really enjoyed this review. In fact I'm not going to call what you do reviews anymore, they are much more like essays. So, loved your essay. ;-)

If anybody needs to purge something from their conscience it's both Sam & Dean. I for one am glad to see things come out in the open. I'm in the process of rewatching season 7, and yesterday was "The Mentalists" in which Sam was pretty PO'd at Dean after the whole Amy debacle, but by the end he could see that what Dean did was for the best. In "The Purge", Sam is not PO'd at Dean, in fact, I still found that they acted very much like themselves, i.e. the brotherly interaction was there. Yes, Sam is very standoffish, but the worry he felt for Dean when he got the phone call was genuine concern. I know a lot of the fandom, and quite a few reviewers, do not care for the road the brotherly bond is going down, but I think it shows maturity and growth. Dean needs to understand where Sam is coming from, and Sam needs to understand Dean's motivations.

And KG_SPN, I agree with you on this:
-Quote:
Finally, your comment about Jared's performance in the final scene made me smile because for a while there I seriously thought I was the only one to see that Sam was not angry in that final moment. His expression changed to sadness and, I think, resignation that he might never be able to make Dean understand where he was coming from.
That's how I perceived it also, there was such sadness in his face, there was no anger. He really wants Dean to understand him in his decision.

Phew, that was a long one. :D
Thanks for the comment.

I've never quite seen my reviews as typical, actually. I don't really do a "thumbs up or thumbs down" style. I blame college workshops. We couldn't simply say "I liked it or didn't like it." We always had to analyze. It was part of the "craft and theory" part of the mix. I think you're right. They're more essay than review. I'll take that as a compliment.

When Sam got that phone call from Dean, he was at first grateful because it gave him that chance to duck Donna before she could totally blow his cover and then it morphed to a frantic near panic as he started to search for Dean. Once he realized what had happened it turned to fury and he was really angry with that cook. It really stuck out to me in light of that final conversation in this episode and it made me rethink that whole moment.

I think Sam and Dean really have a lot of pressure put upon them by what they do and what they've faced so it's no wonder they have issues and difficulties with one another. In many ways, that makes this a realistic relationship for me.

I'm glad you liked my take on Jared's performance, too.

Thanks again.
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-14 22:56
Quoting nappi815:
Holy cow faraway eyes I almost gave up on you. What took ya so long :lol: you are the only reviewer that gives fair, unbiased reviews with such insight as to what is truly going on within the episodes. I agree with every word and I am grateful that you watch this show with open eyes. You go out of your way to illustrate both boys pov's and you point out what both need to do to reach the point of starting to strengthen their bond. You never fail to make this particular fan girl look at an episode with a new understanding I might not have had. At the very least we see things much the same way. I always appreciate that you go about explaining what most of the time I try to say so much more eloquently.
What's happening now between the boys is long overdue. It won't be easy, but it's necessary and the result will be worth it and appreciated more.


Thanks for the comment.

I had my rough draft written mostly on time, but by Saturday I didn't feel well. It wasn't until Tuesday that I felt normal again, so I apologize for the long wait.

I'm glad you like how I approach the episodes. I usually write these completely isolated. I don't look at other reviews or Twitter. I just do a lot of thinking and then try to get it on the page. I'm glad you enjoy that result.

I agree. The end result for these boys will be worth it in the end. This is a starting point. I look forward to seeing how they finish their "purge."

Thanks again.
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-14 22:56
Quote:
Holy cow faraway eyes I almost gave up on you. What took ya so long :lol: you are the only reviewer that gives fair, unbiased reviews with such insight as to what is truly going on within the episodes. I agree with every word and I am grateful that you watch this show with open eyes. You go out of your way to illustrate both boys pov's and you point out what both need to do to reach the point of starting to strengthen their bond. You never fail to make this particular fan girl look at an episode with a new understanding I might not have had. At the very least we see things much the same way. I always appreciate that you go about explaining what most of the time I try to say so much more eloquently.
What's happening now between the boys is long overdue. It won't be easy, but it's necessary and the result will be worth it and appreciated more.
Thanks for the comment.

I had my rough draft written mostly on time, but by Saturday I didn't feel well. It wasn't until Tuesday that I felt normal again, so I apologize for the long wait.

I'm glad you like how I approach the episodes. I usually write these completely isolated. I don't look at other reviews or Twitter. I just do a lot of thinking and then try to get it on the page. I'm glad you enjoy that result.

I agree. The end result for these boys will be worth it in the end. This is a starting point. I look forward to seeing how they finish their "purge."

Thanks again.
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-14 22:59
Quoting Gwen:
Thank you once again for another unbiased, balanced, fair, beautifully detailed review. I have been very much looking forward to your review and, as usual, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.
It's good to see Sam getting some sympathy and understanding as well as Dean. It's very much appreciated.

Quote:
When he is indignant and tells Sam that if situations were reversed that Sam would have done the same and Sam replies, “No, Dean, I wouldn't---same circumstances, I wouldn't,” he can't simply stop at hearing, “I wouldn't.” That's not what Sam is saying at all. Instead, Sam is telling him that he would respect Dean's wishes---even if he didn't agree with or like them.


Yes. Exactly. Thank you.

The misunderstandings really have caused a hell of a load of trouble and heartache for the boys over the years. Hopefully now the boys will be moving towards a better understanding of each other.
Thanks for the comment.

I'm glad you found my review balanced. I feel they both have their roles in what's happened in their relationship. It's not just the recent issues that have gotten us here, after all.

I truly feel deeply for both Sam and Dean in this situation---and I can see why both would be hurt and emotionally vulnerable in it. I'm glad you think I captured that well.

And yes, the misunderstandin gs. It's really one of the biggest issues they must overcome. They do that, they'll be even stronger for it.

Thanks again.
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-14 22:59
Quote:
Thank you once again for another unbiased, balanced, fair, beautifully detailed review. I have been very much looking forward to your review and, as usual, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.
It's good to see Sam getting some sympathy and understanding as well as Dean. It's very much appreciated.

Quote:
When he is indignant and tells Sam that if situations were reversed that Sam would have done the same and Sam replies, “No, Dean, I wouldn't---same circumstances, I wouldn't,” he can't simply stop at hearing, “I wouldn't.” That's not what Sam is saying at all. Instead, Sam is telling him that he would respect Dean's wishes---even if he didn't agree with or like them.
Yes. Exactly. Thank you.

The misunderstandings really have caused a hell of a load of trouble and heartache for the boys over the years. Hopefully now the boys will be moving towards a better understanding of each other.
Thanks for the comment.

I'm glad you found my review balanced. I feel they both have their roles in what's happened in their relationship. It's not just the recent issues that have gotten us here, after all.

I truly feel deeply for both Sam and Dean in this situation---and I can see why both would be hurt and emotionally vulnerable in it. I'm glad you think I captured that well.

And yes, the misunderstandin gs. It's really one of the biggest issues they must overcome. They do that, they'll be even stronger for it.

Thanks again.
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-14 23:00
Quoting JuliaG:
Lovely review. Thank you.


Thanks for the comment. I'm glad you enjoyed it!
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-14 23:00
Quote:
Lovely review. Thank you.
Thanks for the comment. I'm glad you enjoyed it!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-15 01:10
#35 nappi... Sam to Dean "dude your freaking alive!" I really think that says it all.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-15 01:10
#35 nappi... Sam to Dean "dude your freaking alive!" I really think that says it all.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-15 01:29
Quoting cheryl42:
#35 nappi... Sam to Dean "dude your freaking alive!" I really think that says it all.


it certainly did to me. ;-)
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-15 01:29
Quote:
#35 nappi... Sam to Dean "dude your freaking alive!" I really think that says it all.
it certainly did to me. ;-)
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-02-15 03:50
I'm so glad that other people were paying attention to that scene. That Sam thought Dean was dead was one of the first things out of his mouth when he saw him in the cabin. He went on to state unequivocally ,that his whole family was dead. Dean heard what he wanted to hear and Deans assessment of what Sam says is unreliable which is why I don't look to Dean for clarification of anything anyone else on the show thinks. Dean seems to hear what others say in the worst light to himself and when he's decided he's hurt a lot of fans follow suit.
At the same time he said that SAMs body language was screaming"oh man! I've screwed up again. " I don't think I was the only one to see that and that he spends most of the rest of that episode defending himself from Deans wrath but it seems no one, not even the fans, was listening to him. Just taking Deans assertion of what happened instead of what Sam is actually saying and it's the same thing happening in The Purge.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-02-15 03:50
I'm so glad that other people were paying attention to that scene. That Sam thought Dean was dead was one of the first things out of his mouth when he saw him in the cabin. He went on to state unequivocally ,that his whole family was dead. Dean heard what he wanted to hear and Deans assessment of what Sam says is unreliable which is why I don't look to Dean for clarification of anything anyone else on the show thinks. Dean seems to hear what others say in the worst light to himself and when he's decided he's hurt a lot of fans follow suit.
At the same time he said that SAMs body language was screaming"oh man! I've screwed up again. " I don't think I was the only one to see that and that he spends most of the rest of that episode defending himself from Deans wrath but it seems no one, not even the fans, was listening to him. Just taking Deans assertion of what happened instead of what Sam is actually saying and it's the same thing happening in The Purge.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-15 04:55
Quoting lkeke35:
I'm so glad that other people were paying attention to that scene. That Sam thought Dean was dead was one of the first things out of his mouth when he saw him in the cabin. He went on to state unequivocally ,that his whole family was dead. Dean heard what he wanted to hear and Deans assessment of what Sam says is unreliable which is why I don't look to Dean for clarification of anything anyone else on the show thinks. Dean seems to hear what others say in the worst light to himself and when he's decided he's hurt a lot of fans follow suit.
At the same time he said that SAMs body language was screaming"oh man! I've screwed up again. " I don't think I was the only one to see that and that he spends most of the rest of that episode defending himself from Deans wrath but it seems no one, not even the fans, was listening to him. Just taking Deans assertion of what happened instead of what Sam is actually saying and it's the same thing happening in The Purge.

Exactly and the Purge is a emotive episode because of what Sam said. I do think that we needed more focus on Sam's reaction to what was done to him rather than how bad it has been for Dean because of the way Dean is not a reliable narrator , however I also believe there was a knee jerk reaction to his speech . And it was interesting how many ignored the two keys words 'same circumstances' .
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-15 04:55
Quote:
I'm so glad that other people were paying attention to that scene. That Sam thought Dean was dead was one of the first things out of his mouth when he saw him in the cabin. He went on to state unequivocally ,that his whole family was dead. Dean heard what he wanted to hear and Deans assessment of what Sam says is unreliable which is why I don't look to Dean for clarification of anything anyone else on the show thinks. Dean seems to hear what others say in the worst light to himself and when he's decided he's hurt a lot of fans follow suit.
At the same time he said that SAMs body language was screaming"oh man! I've screwed up again. " I don't think I was the only one to see that and that he spends most of the rest of that episode defending himself from Deans wrath but it seems no one, not even the fans, was listening to him. Just taking Deans assertion of what happened instead of what Sam is actually saying and it's the same thing happening in The Purge.
Exactly and the Purge is a emotive episode because of what Sam said. I do think that we needed more focus on Sam's reaction to what was done to him rather than how bad it has been for Dean because of the way Dean is not a reliable narrator , however I also believe there was a knee jerk reaction to his speech . And it was interesting how many ignored the two keys words 'same circumstances' .
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-15 08:07
In the last episode of S3 Sam does try to subvert Dean's wishes by summoning up Ruby to help but since Dean wasn't in a coma he was basically able to stop it. Which really was a mistake on Dean's part since Sam could have killed Lilith and Dean wouldn't have gone to hell and broken the first seal. Which might have meant killing Lilith had no consequences except to stop Lucifer rising.

Maybe the point of this season is being willing to sacrifice yourself is not the way to go. Staying alive is.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-15 08:07
In the last episode of S3 Sam does try to subvert Dean's wishes by summoning up Ruby to help but since Dean wasn't in a coma he was basically able to stop it. Which really was a mistake on Dean's part since Sam could have killed Lilith and Dean wouldn't have gone to hell and broken the first seal. Which might have meant killing Lilith had no consequences except to stop Lucifer rising.

Maybe the point of this season is being willing to sacrifice yourself is not the way to go. Staying alive is.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-15 08:16
To make my feelings clearer. Both Sam and Dean have shown they are more then willing to die for the world and for each other but maybe the true sacrifice is to be willing to choose to stay alive for each other.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-15 08:16
To make my feelings clearer. Both Sam and Dean have shown they are more then willing to die for the world and for each other but maybe the true sacrifice is to be willing to choose to stay alive for each other.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-15 08:31
Quoting Far Away Eyes:
Quoting anonymousN:
Quote:
he chose to say yes to Dean's plan even if he didn't know what it was.
The dialogue is unclear on what Sam said yes to.Quote:
He chose to stop the Trials
The Sam not trusting Dean is because of his possession and how dean slyly had him possessed and now Sam is having doubts about Dean's motivations about what Dean told and that is why he is adamant about his position IMO.He thinks Dean manipulated him to stop the trial i.e Dean's statements which got Sam to stop may be a lie.
I agree that it's not crystal clear to what Sam said yes, to, but both times when Dean tells him first to stop the Trials and then again when he is in the cabin he turns to Dean for direction. He asks "How do I stop?" and "What do I do?" Each time, that means going along with Dean's plan.

I do think Sam questions what Dean said in the Church---and in that cabin. I think that's another one of those moments where the words are being misinterpreted. Here, Sam's not trusting them. I think Dean meant them---but his actions have opened up that doubt for Sam.

Thanks again.
IMO it means he wants to know what he has to do according to Dean to get the results Dean wants..It does not mean he will agree to it.Listening to ideas Dean has and then deciding whether he will go along with it or not.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-15 08:31
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
he chose to say yes to Dean's plan even if he didn't know what it was.
The dialogue is unclear on what Sam said yes to.Quote:
He chose to stop the Trials
The Sam not trusting Dean is because of his possession and how dean slyly had him possessed and now Sam is having doubts about Dean's motivations about what Dean told and that is why he is adamant about his position IMO.He thinks Dean manipulated him to stop the trial i.e Dean's statements which got Sam to stop may be a lie.
I agree that it's not crystal clear to what Sam said yes, to, but both times when Dean tells him first to stop the Trials and then again when he is in the cabin he turns to Dean for direction. He asks "How do I stop?" and "What do I do?" Each time, that means going along with Dean's plan.

I do think Sam questions what Dean said in the Church---and in that cabin. I think that's another one of those moments where the words are being misinterpreted. Here, Sam's not trusting them. I think Dean meant them---but his actions have opened up that doubt for Sam.

Thanks again.
IMO it means he wants to know what he has to do according to Dean to get the results Dean wants..It does not mean he will agree to it.Listening to ideas Dean has and then deciding whether he will go along with it or not.
mary9930
# mary9930 2014-02-15 08:38
I agree with you 99.99% Far Away Eyes. I want Dean to treat Sam as a complete equal EXCEPT I want both brothers to move Heaven & Hell for each other no matter the expense. That ridiculously profound bond is what saw them through the Apocalypse, what motivates them to go further & fight harder than any other hunter. I understand that people have been watching their favorite characters for 9 seasons and are very attached to them if not protective of them. But, think about whether you would feel so strongly if they had a healthier relationship. I surely wouldn't. This portion of comment #1 from SueB sums up what I want for their relationship:
"At the end of the day, Dean will always be the older brother and take some level of leadership/patr iarch role in their relationship. Sam is going to need to stop resenting this and see that it comes from love, not desperation. Dean, OTOH, is going to have to see Sam's running away as not leaving the family so much as trying to find his own identity. Dean needs to lose the grudge he has over these moments and see the world through Sam's eyes."
mary9930
# mary9930 2014-02-15 08:38
I agree with you 99.99% Far Away Eyes. I want Dean to treat Sam as a complete equal EXCEPT I want both brothers to move Heaven & Hell for each other no matter the expense. That ridiculously profound bond is what saw them through the Apocalypse, what motivates them to go further & fight harder than any other hunter. I understand that people have been watching their favorite characters for 9 seasons and are very attached to them if not protective of them. But, think about whether you would feel so strongly if they had a healthier relationship. I surely wouldn't. This portion of comment #1 from SueB sums up what I want for their relationship:
"At the end of the day, Dean will always be the older brother and take some level of leadership/patr iarch role in their relationship. Sam is going to need to stop resenting this and see that it comes from love, not desperation. Dean, OTOH, is going to have to see Sam's running away as not leaving the family so much as trying to find his own identity. Dean needs to lose the grudge he has over these moments and see the world through Sam's eyes."
htbrown07
# htbrown07 2014-02-15 08:42
Excellent review! I have been very bothered reading comments that I believe completely misinterpret Sam's words and actions in this episode. I think you got it right.
htbrown07
# htbrown07 2014-02-15 08:42
Excellent review! I have been very bothered reading comments that I believe completely misinterpret Sam's words and actions in this episode. I think you got it right.
Bloodina
# Bloodina 2014-02-15 09:01
Tyvm on another amazing review...you rock!
Ivana
# Ivana 2014-02-15 09:01
Tyvm on another amazing review...you rock!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-15 09:55
Prix68 I think the original story line for S3 was for Sam to go dark side and save Dean. But that was the writers strike year so there were only 16(?) episodes. So Dean went to hell and Sam went dark in S4. But the end result was always going to be the consequences of the decisions made in AHBL. Dean might have been saved from hell but he would still have to deal with what his choices did to Sam. That is why many fans say that this show is told from Dean's POV. It always seems to boil down to his choices and how the supernatural universe is affected by it. Even Death has tried to teach Dean the lesson, just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should.
I for one do agree with you that maybe the lesson for the brothers this season is to choose life.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-15 09:55
Prix68 I think the original story line for S3 was for Sam to go dark side and save Dean. But that was the writers strike year so there were only 16(?) episodes. So Dean went to hell and Sam went dark in S4. But the end result was always going to be the consequences of the decisions made in AHBL. Dean might have been saved from hell but he would still have to deal with what his choices did to Sam. That is why many fans say that this show is told from Dean's POV. It always seems to boil down to his choices and how the supernatural universe is affected by it. Even Death has tried to teach Dean the lesson, just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should.
I for one do agree with you that maybe the lesson for the brothers this season is to choose life.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-15 09:56
i seem to recall that dean expected sam to summon ruby as sam did tell dean there's nothing he wouldn't do for him. all this of course also occurred before sam's experiences in s4, 5, 6 and 7. of course they will do anything it takes to save ea. other. but as i also recall, at the end, when the hellhounds were waiting outside the door, sam told ruby ok what do i do. she said it was too late. they needed time. he demands to know how to stop lilith, dean yells at sam to stop and sam replied i'm not going to let you go to hell dean....dean's response...yes you are. he then followed up with an aplogy taking responsibility for his deal...sam asked what do i do? dean told him to keep hunting. take care of his wheels and not to make the same mistakes he had. sam respected dean's last wish and did stop. he took care of the car. he stayed in hunting, though not for the reasons dean had hoped and not due to lack of trying he didn't make the same mistake dean did. instead though he made a different mistake.
the way i see things, in the grand scheme of things they say everything happens for a reason. seems to me starting as far back as lesson 2, that lesson was that one shouldn't mess with the natural order because it leads to serious consequences. i think loving someone enough to let them go is another lesson mixed up in there.
where we are now, in hindsight almost feels as though it was planned all along. that lessons were meant for not just sam and dean but for cas as well. sam experiencing all that he's suffered throughout the seasons since dean went to hell, the way he views things now, knowing what he knows. he's the first winchester in a long line of winchesters to have broken the vicious cycle of sacrifice through extreme measures which messes with the natural order. he's the first winchester to have learned from past mistakes. and now he's attempting to try to get dean to learn that same lesson he did. to get dean to break that vicious cycle that leads to pain and deadly consequences. we're on the verge of finally getting these boys to open up and for the first time ever understand where the other is coming from. to see ea other clearly and accept the other's views and with some luck changing some of it as well. maybe the winchesters having a relationship like that, to finally be rid of long held resentments, to respect and trust in ea other equally, to not have a parent/child relationship, but a real loving brother relationship, perhaps that not only saves them as a family but maybe that's what it's going to take to beat metatron, crowley and abbadon.
maybe that's why sam and dean winchester were truly fated to be born. not because of what the angels/demons believe to be their own version of some warped prophecy. i think God is really the one who chose the winchesters because despite the mistakes they've made, the hurting they do to ea. other in the process, the winchester boys never quit. they never quit fighting. they never quit forgiving. they never quit learning and they never quit loving ea. other. if you want anyone fighting to save the world, it'll be the winchester boys.

you know i can't help but still hold out hope that we'll see the samulet again. carver was the one who introduced it in avsc. and as i think back on when it was sam gave it to him, it was after dean revealed the truth to sam finally about what his father did. when sam handed dean the amulet, dean said no sam that's for dad. but it was sam's reply that got me. sam told dean: dad lied to me. i want you to have it.....right there, since sam was 8 yrs old, it seems to me that the most important thing to sam was trust. and dean was the only one who gave it to him. the samulet has always signified trust. sam's trust in dean, at at that time, sam's belief that dean trusted in him.
by the time we get to dark side of the moon, dean has revealed lost trust in sam. he actually threw away the necklace. i always found that to be the cruelest thing dean had ever done to sam, and i believe that this was the one single act that sealed sam's belief that dean doesn't trust in him and sees him as a failure.
i personally believe that sam took it out of the trash. and i have always found it interesting that we haven't had an episode in which sam reveals he still has it. but given where we are now, it seems to me that sam is back to that belief that dean doesn't trust him.
i can't help but wonder if it'll be carver that has sam hand dean over the amulet, once they get to the point where i believe we are heading. that dean will be able to trust in sam fully. that they will finally reach that point where the misperceptions are finally laid to rest and they learn and accept ea other's point of views. that they truly become the brother's they should've always been. i have this hope that when they reach this point, sam will give dean the samulet back.

it's my dream that i'm holding on to.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-15 09:56
i seem to recall that dean expected sam to summon ruby as sam did tell dean there's nothing he wouldn't do for him. all this of course also occurred before sam's experiences in s4, 5, 6 and 7. of course they will do anything it takes to save ea. other. but as i also recall, at the end, when the hellhounds were waiting outside the door, sam told ruby ok what do i do. she said it was too late. they needed time. he demands to know how to stop lilith, dean yells at sam to stop and sam replied i'm not going to let you go to hell dean....dean's response...yes you are. he then followed up with an aplogy taking responsibility for his deal...sam asked what do i do? dean told him to keep hunting. take care of his wheels and not to make the same mistakes he had. sam respected dean's last wish and did stop. he took care of the car. he stayed in hunting, though not for the reasons dean had hoped and not due to lack of trying he didn't make the same mistake dean did. instead though he made a different mistake.
the way i see things, in the grand scheme of things they say everything happens for a reason. seems to me starting as far back as lesson 2, that lesson was that one shouldn't mess with the natural order because it leads to serious consequences. i think loving someone enough to let them go is another lesson mixed up in there.
where we are now, in hindsight almost feels as though it was planned all along. that lessons were meant for not just sam and dean but for cas as well. sam experiencing all that he's suffered throughout the seasons since dean went to hell, the way he views things now, knowing what he knows. he's the first winchester in a long line of winchesters to have broken the vicious cycle of sacrifice through extreme measures which messes with the natural order. he's the first winchester to have learned from past mistakes. and now he's attempting to try to get dean to learn that same lesson he did. to get dean to break that vicious cycle that leads to pain and deadly consequences. we're on the verge of finally getting these boys to open up and for the first time ever understand where the other is coming from. to see ea other clearly and accept the other's views and with some luck changing some of it as well. maybe the winchesters having a relationship like that, to finally be rid of long held resentments, to respect and trust in ea other equally, to not have a parent/child relationship, but a real loving brother relationship, perhaps that not only saves them as a family but maybe that's what it's going to take to beat metatron, crowley and abbadon.
maybe that's why sam and dean winchester were truly fated to be born. not because of what the angels/demons believe to be their own version of some warped prophecy. i think God is really the one who chose the winchesters because despite the mistakes they've made, the hurting they do to ea. other in the process, the winchester boys never quit. they never quit fighting. they never quit forgiving. they never quit learning and they never quit loving ea. other. if you want anyone fighting to save the world, it'll be the winchester boys.

you know i can't help but still hold out hope that we'll see the samulet again. carver was the one who introduced it in avsc. and as i think back on when it was sam gave it to him, it was after dean revealed the truth to sam finally about what his father did. when sam handed dean the amulet, dean said no sam that's for dad. but it was sam's reply that got me. sam told dean: dad lied to me. i want you to have it.....right there, since sam was 8 yrs old, it seems to me that the most important thing to sam was trust. and dean was the only one who gave it to him. the samulet has always signified trust. sam's trust in dean, at at that time, sam's belief that dean trusted in him.
by the time we get to dark side of the moon, dean has revealed lost trust in sam. he actually threw away the necklace. i always found that to be the cruelest thing dean had ever done to sam, and i believe that this was the one single act that sealed sam's belief that dean doesn't trust in him and sees him as a failure.
i personally believe that sam took it out of the trash. and i have always found it interesting that we haven't had an episode in which sam reveals he still has it. but given where we are now, it seems to me that sam is back to that belief that dean doesn't trust him.
i can't help but wonder if it'll be carver that has sam hand dean over the amulet, once they get to the point where i believe we are heading. that dean will be able to trust in sam fully. that they will finally reach that point where the misperceptions are finally laid to rest and they learn and accept ea other's point of views. that they truly become the brother's they should've always been. i have this hope that when they reach this point, sam will give dean the samulet back.

it's my dream that i'm holding on to.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-15 11:10
Nappi815 That's funny that you mention the samulet. My first though at the end of The Purge was this was Sam's amulet moment. He has lost faith in his brother. What will it take to restore Sam's faith in his brother do you think?
I also believe Sam has it by the way.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-15 11:10
Nappi815 That's funny that you mention the samulet. My first though at the end of The Purge was this was Sam's amulet moment. He has lost faith in his brother. What will it take to restore Sam's faith in his brother do you think?
I also believe Sam has it by the way.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-15 11:47
hey cheryl42. the way i look at it the answer to your question in what it will take for dean to restore sam's faith...trust. dean's trust in sam.
i think trust encompasses more than just sam wanting dean to respect his decisions. i think for sam, trust ties in with faith which ties into sam's longheld misperception that dean sees sam as a failure who will inevitably always disappoint him. it also ties in with sam needing dean see him as his brother and not the snot nosed child dean was in essence forced to raise.
i think the way to do that is not necessarily through actions. i think it'll happen through words. i feel like what we are leading up to is the one thing that these boys haven't ever really done....that is talk. confront what's bothering them and not letting the issue go, but in fact dealing with it this time. no more concessions. time to verbally face ea. other's pov head on. if dean can come face to face with himself as to why he truly goes to extremes when it comes to sam then maybe he can find a way to change. if sam can understand dean's true motivations instead of misunderstandin g them, then i think that will bring them to a place of mutual understanding where both brothers are concerned and they will reach that point where they can both work on fixing what's wrong.

to be honest, i never really thought dean's issues were about his lack of trust in sam as sam sees it.
i think it's about dean's lack of trust in himself. he has no faith in himself that he would be able to survive on his own if ever that be the case. a little self loathing, mixed in with issues of abandonment which lead back to self loathing and that lack of trust in himself leads to a world of dire measures dean is willing to take when it comes to sam. if dean can learn to trust in himself and see worth in himself, which is where i believe sam will help dean in that area...then i think he'll be able to change. he'll be able to accept sam's decisions and trust in him they are the right ones. he will come to hopefully accept that his role of a parent has been completed and now it's time to let go of that role and take on the role of sam's brother. a brother who he sees and respects and trusts in. he can't get there until he sees the worth in himself and he aint getting there until he sees that his actions have consequences one of which has sam losing trust in his brother...the one thing that dean never lost from sam.

talking. talking and dealing. it's the only way to fix it and sam wants to fix it. you can tell in every nuance of his body language that he wants to fix it otherwise he never would've gotten into that impala.
sam ain't letting this one go. no giving in this time, no sweeping it under the rug or burying down so deep that it only rears it's ugly head at a later date. this time he's fighting and yes that means fighting his brother. it's the only way to get through and succeed. i'm proud of sam for not giving up this time. he needs to fight for both of them until he gets dean to fight him back on his own.
when sam and dean finally reach that point where they finally understand ea. other and accept it. when dean says the words to dean that he's always needed to hear, that dean has always trusted in sam...more than in anyone else, perhaps more than himself. when dean understands that sam loves dean more than sam loves himself. i think that's when or at least i hope that's when sam gives dean the amulet ...and i have no doubt that amulet or not, the rest will happen this season. :lol:

jmo of course.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-15 11:47
hey cheryl42. the way i look at it the answer to your question in what it will take for dean to restore sam's faith...trust. dean's trust in sam.
i think trust encompasses more than just sam wanting dean to respect his decisions. i think for sam, trust ties in with faith which ties into sam's longheld misperception that dean sees sam as a failure who will inevitably always disappoint him. it also ties in with sam needing dean see him as his brother and not the snot nosed child dean was in essence forced to raise.
i think the way to do that is not necessarily through actions. i think it'll happen through words. i feel like what we are leading up to is the one thing that these boys haven't ever really done....that is talk. confront what's bothering them and not letting the issue go, but in fact dealing with it this time. no more concessions. time to verbally face ea. other's pov head on. if dean can come face to face with himself as to why he truly goes to extremes when it comes to sam then maybe he can find a way to change. if sam can understand dean's true motivations instead of misunderstandin g them, then i think that will bring them to a place of mutual understanding where both brothers are concerned and they will reach that point where they can both work on fixing what's wrong.

to be honest, i never really thought dean's issues were about his lack of trust in sam as sam sees it.
i think it's about dean's lack of trust in himself. he has no faith in himself that he would be able to survive on his own if ever that be the case. a little self loathing, mixed in with issues of abandonment which lead back to self loathing and that lack of trust in himself leads to a world of dire measures dean is willing to take when it comes to sam. if dean can learn to trust in himself and see worth in himself, which is where i believe sam will help dean in that area...then i think he'll be able to change. he'll be able to accept sam's decisions and trust in him they are the right ones. he will come to hopefully accept that his role of a parent has been completed and now it's time to let go of that role and take on the role of sam's brother. a brother who he sees and respects and trusts in. he can't get there until he sees the worth in himself and he aint getting there until he sees that his actions have consequences one of which has sam losing trust in his brother...the one thing that dean never lost from sam.

talking. talking and dealing. it's the only way to fix it and sam wants to fix it. you can tell in every nuance of his body language that he wants to fix it otherwise he never would've gotten into that impala.
sam ain't letting this one go. no giving in this time, no sweeping it under the rug or burying down so deep that it only rears it's ugly head at a later date. this time he's fighting and yes that means fighting his brother. it's the only way to get through and succeed. i'm proud of sam for not giving up this time. he needs to fight for both of them until he gets dean to fight him back on his own.
when sam and dean finally reach that point where they finally understand ea. other and accept it. when dean says the words to dean that he's always needed to hear, that dean has always trusted in sam...more than in anyone else, perhaps more than himself. when dean understands that sam loves dean more than sam loves himself. i think that's when or at least i hope that's when sam gives dean the amulet ...and i have no doubt that amulet or not, the rest will happen this season. :lol:

jmo of course.
suenash19
# suenash19 2014-02-15 12:29
Dear FarAwayEyes Thank you xxx


@ 14 lkeke35 - I agree, this review by Far Away Eyes is balanced, and I believe she and I were in fact watching the same episode, whereas I sometimes wonder what it was that others saw! Just in case you're interested - I put down some thoughts on some of the background that led up to The Purge here :

http://thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/archive-articles/129-season-nine/18352-a-winchester-historical-perspective

@47 Sharon - you might like this too?

@27 Gwen - partly what I was alluding to with Madison example. Sam desperately wanted to save her, and she didn't want to die...but she couldn't bear the thought and consequences of remaining a monster an killing more innocent people. So Sam fulfilled her dying wish and, through his tears, killed the first woman he had started falling in love with since Jess

@29 E - good point. Well made. - line crossed. Personally I think the trust situation could have been considerably retrieved/repai red if, after making said dodgy call, Dean had told Sam what he had done straight away - and allowed Sam to decide whether or not to let the angel stay a while.

@31 Far Away Eyes / @1 SueB. - It did not occur to me that Sam's comment about Dean not being the only one to date someone bendy was a barbed one? If anything it seemed like a light moment. Sam had landed the yoga instructor role and ( hey there, dimples ) - he was familiar with what was required too.
-note to self: would Dean also have interpreted it in the way some fans have?

@35 Nappi815 - not just your opinion :-) x


@45 nappi815 / Cheryl 42. Agreed!

@55 nappi815 I did read all that and it made a lot of sense. And I love what you said about the Samulet.... Yes, I would like that symbolism, one day Sam feeling he really could trust Dean, and giving it back to him. ( slight tangent - I realise Jensen objected to the jewellery, but what about Sam or Dean making the pendant into part of a belt buckle - "belt of Truth"!)

@57 nappi815 " i'm proud of sam for not giving up this time. " Yes.
suenash19
# suenash19 2014-02-15 12:29
Dear FarAwayEyes Thank you xxx


@ 14 lkeke35 - I agree, this review by Far Away Eyes is balanced, and I believe she and I were in fact watching the same episode, whereas I sometimes wonder what it was that others saw! Just in case you're interested - I put down some thoughts on some of the background that led up to The Purge here :

http://thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/archive-articles/129-season-nine/18352-a-winchester-historical-perspective

@47 Sharon - you might like this too?

@27 Gwen - partly what I was alluding to with Madison example. Sam desperately wanted to save her, and she didn't want to die...but she couldn't bear the thought and consequences of remaining a monster an killing more innocent people. So Sam fulfilled her dying wish and, through his tears, killed the first woman he had started falling in love with since Jess

@29 E - good point. Well made. - line crossed. Personally I think the trust situation could have been considerably retrieved/repai red if, after making said dodgy call, Dean had told Sam what he had done straight away - and allowed Sam to decide whether or not to let the angel stay a while.

@31 Far Away Eyes / @1 SueB. - It did not occur to me that Sam's comment about Dean not being the only one to date someone bendy was a barbed one? If anything it seemed like a light moment. Sam had landed the yoga instructor role and ( hey there, dimples ) - he was familiar with what was required too.
-note to self: would Dean also have interpreted it in the way some fans have?

@35 Nappi815 - not just your opinion :-) x


@45 nappi815 / Cheryl 42. Agreed!

@55 nappi815 I did read all that and it made a lot of sense. And I love what you said about the Samulet.... Yes, I would like that symbolism, one day Sam feeling he really could trust Dean, and giving it back to him. ( slight tangent - I realise Jensen objected to the jewellery, but what about Sam or Dean making the pendant into part of a belt buckle - "belt of Truth"!)

@57 nappi815 " i'm proud of sam for not giving up this time. " Yes.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-15 12:44
Nappi815 That is what I thought about Sacrifice. Dean said essentially I love you above all others. Sam heard I trust you above all others. Trust is what Sam wanted to hear. That is why he brought it up again. If Dean doesn't trust him what is the upside to Sam being alive. Dean is hearing I don't love you enough to stay alive for you and not only that you don't love me enough to save me. Of course Sam is saying I do love you enough to save you even if that means letting you go. Boy do these guys need to talk. :roll:
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-15 12:44
Nappi815 That is what I thought about Sacrifice. Dean said essentially I love you above all others. Sam heard I trust you above all others. Trust is what Sam wanted to hear. That is why he brought it up again. If Dean doesn't trust him what is the upside to Sam being alive. Dean is hearing I don't love you enough to stay alive for you and not only that you don't love me enough to save me. Of course Sam is saying I do love you enough to save you even if that means letting you go. Boy do these guys need to talk. :roll:
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-15 12:58
Quoting suenash19:

"@29 E - good point. Well made. - line crossed. Personally I think the trust situation could have been considerably retrieved/repai red if, after making said dodgy call, Dean had told Sam what he had done straight away - and allowed Sam to decide whether or not to let the angel stay a while."

I think Dean was rightly terrified that Sam would immediately eject the angel thus insuring Sam's death. Whether that was true or not, that is the manipulation Gadreel used to insure his continued possession. I am not saying this was right on Dean's part! Nor was the actual decision to let it happen in the first place. But he was still in "save Sam" mode. A mode that needs to be adjusted to take Sam's wishes into consideration. I always understand Dean's motivations even though I might not always agree with them. Sam's as well. :-)
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-15 12:58
Quoting suenash19:

"@29 E - good point. Well made. - line crossed. Personally I think the trust situation could have been considerably retrieved/repai red if, after making said dodgy call, Dean had told Sam what he had done straight away - and allowed Sam to decide whether or not to let the angel stay a while."

I think Dean was rightly terrified that Sam would immediately eject the angel thus insuring Sam's death. Whether that was true or not, that is the manipulation Gadreel used to insure his continued possession. I am not saying this was right on Dean's part! Nor was the actual decision to let it happen in the first place. But he was still in "save Sam" mode. A mode that needs to be adjusted to take Sam's wishes into consideration. I always understand Dean's motivations even though I might not always agree with them. Sam's as well. :-)
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-15 13:19
i never saw sam's remark to dean about him not the only one who's dated someone bendy as a barb. still don't. as a matter of fact, i kind of think that it was soulless sam that might have had that encounter and it's a memory that 's sam's now...much the way sam had sex with the hunter that died in of grave importance. he, dean and bobby all met up in a foxhole with her, but sam specifically noted that it happened when he was soulless. i have no doubt soulless sam broke a few hearts during his tenure. :lol:
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-15 13:19
i never saw sam's remark to dean about him not the only one who's dated someone bendy as a barb. still don't. as a matter of fact, i kind of think that it was soulless sam that might have had that encounter and it's a memory that 's sam's now...much the way sam had sex with the hunter that died in of grave importance. he, dean and bobby all met up in a foxhole with her, but sam specifically noted that it happened when he was soulless. i have no doubt soulless sam broke a few hearts during his tenure. :lol:
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-15 19:17
Sam's comment about also dating someone bendy might also have been in retaliation for Dean's comment about Sam being awkward around women, in a "hey, I get around too" sort of way.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-15 19:17
Sam's comment about also dating someone bendy might also have been in retaliation for Dean's comment about Sam being awkward around women, in a "hey, I get around too" sort of way.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-15 19:20
Quoting JuliaG:
Sam's comment about also dating someone bendy might also have been in retaliation for Dean's comment about Sam being awkward around women, in a "hey, I get around too" sort of way.

that's possible too. i guess i just took it as just plain funny .....and looking at sam, not out of the realm of possibility. :lol:
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-15 19:20
Quote:
Sam's comment about also dating someone bendy might also have been in retaliation for Dean's comment about Sam being awkward around women, in a "hey, I get around too" sort of way.
that's possible too. i guess i just took it as just plain funny .....and looking at sam, not out of the realm of possibility. :lol:
DeanColt45
# DeanColt45 2014-02-15 19:21
This is the best review of The Purge I've read so far. Both sides of Sam and Dean and where they meet in the middle. I'm excited and scared (of course, it's Supernatural!) to see what the next steps will be to Sam and Dean getting back to being brothers, but I also think it's going to happen slower than I want.
DeanColt45
# DeanColt45 2014-02-15 19:21
This is the best review of The Purge I've read so far. Both sides of Sam and Dean and where they meet in the middle. I'm excited and scared (of course, it's Supernatural!) to see what the next steps will be to Sam and Dean getting back to being brothers, but I also think it's going to happen slower than I want.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-15 20:30
I've been thinking about Dean's issue with trust and why it is hard for him to trust Sam. Sure there was the "running away" i.e. going to college, but more than that Dean has been lied to by John (not telling him what was going on with Sam), lied to by Sam (from visions to demon blood to hell visions and so on), lied to by Cas (his closest friend outside of Sam). Dean has hardly had a chance to trust Sam between visions, soulless, hellucinations, trial sickness, possessions and on and on, Dean has been waiting for Sam to go off, die, turn into something monstrous and or die again. It's no wonder he has trust issues with Sam. Now Dean knows that none of this is Sam's fault but Dean has been waiting for the other shoe to drop and have to come in and "be the hero" that I don't think he knows how to have a healthy relationship with Sam. For the first time in the entire series Sam is just Sam. He is not infected by demon blood, his soul is intact, he is not possessed by anything, he is just Sam. I wonder if even Sam knows what that means and how it changes his relationship with Dean. These two are going to have to re-evaluate everything now. It will be a hard road. Patience and time is never going to be an option to Sam and Dean while they are in the business they are in. Good luck to them and us as they try to work it out.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-15 20:30
I've been thinking about Dean's issue with trust and why it is hard for him to trust Sam. Sure there was the "running away" i.e. going to college, but more than that Dean has been lied to by John (not telling him what was going on with Sam), lied to by Sam (from visions to demon blood to hell visions and so on), lied to by Cas (his closest friend outside of Sam). Dean has hardly had a chance to trust Sam between visions, soulless, hellucinations, trial sickness, possessions and on and on, Dean has been waiting for Sam to go off, die, turn into something monstrous and or die again. It's no wonder he has trust issues with Sam. Now Dean knows that none of this is Sam's fault but Dean has been waiting for the other shoe to drop and have to come in and "be the hero" that I don't think he knows how to have a healthy relationship with Sam. For the first time in the entire series Sam is just Sam. He is not infected by demon blood, his soul is intact, he is not possessed by anything, he is just Sam. I wonder if even Sam knows what that means and how it changes his relationship with Dean. These two are going to have to re-evaluate everything now. It will be a hard road. Patience and time is never going to be an option to Sam and Dean while they are in the business they are in. Good luck to them and us as they try to work it out.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-15 23:51
Sam was lied to by both john and dean. Dean lied to Sam about what his dad told him. He lied to Sam about not remembering hell. He lied to Sam about killing Amy. He lied about Benny. Sam has gotten his fair share of lies from his brother and those lies were I hate to say dean's fault. Yet with all the lies dean told Sam, Sam didn't lose trust in his brother.
I noticed that there have been times when dean has cried betrayal or abandonment from Sam whenever Sam did something that dean didn't like, even though it was not the case.
Both boys have lied to ea. other and been lied to. Cas lied to Sam along with dean, as did their father. The difference is when Sam is lied to he holds onto the pain. It adds to his lack of worth. Dean sees it as a personal attack and thus has trust issues.
I understand where u r coming from Cheryl and I agree with you when you say that dean doesn't know how to relate to a normal Sam....but I can't give dean a pass on his inability to trust his brother . Sam has been through a lot of crap but he always manages to pull through. Yes a lot of those times if not most were due to dean. Sometimes by dean's saves and sometimes because of sam's love for his brother...Sam does survive. He is strong. Dean knows it...he has said it, and yet dean still can't trust in it? I just don't know if I can buy that.....

I really do hope they delve into this because I'd like to hear from dean himself why it is he can't trust Sam...or is it that he doesn't trust himself....
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-15 23:51
Sam was lied to by both john and dean. Dean lied to Sam about what his dad told him. He lied to Sam about not remembering hell. He lied to Sam about killing Amy. He lied about Benny. Sam has gotten his fair share of lies from his brother and those lies were I hate to say dean's fault. Yet with all the lies dean told Sam, Sam didn't lose trust in his brother.
I noticed that there have been times when dean has cried betrayal or abandonment from Sam whenever Sam did something that dean didn't like, even though it was not the case.
Both boys have lied to ea. other and been lied to. Cas lied to Sam along with dean, as did their father. The difference is when Sam is lied to he holds onto the pain. It adds to his lack of worth. Dean sees it as a personal attack and thus has trust issues.
I understand where u r coming from Cheryl and I agree with you when you say that dean doesn't know how to relate to a normal Sam....but I can't give dean a pass on his inability to trust his brother . Sam has been through a lot of crap but he always manages to pull through. Yes a lot of those times if not most were due to dean. Sometimes by dean's saves and sometimes because of sam's love for his brother...Sam does survive. He is strong. Dean knows it...he has said it, and yet dean still can't trust in it? I just don't know if I can buy that.....

I really do hope they delve into this because I'd like to hear from dean himself why it is he can't trust Sam...or is it that he doesn't trust himself....
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-16 00:28
I know I was just trying to try to look at Dean and why he does what he does. Sam is always quick to forgive and move on, or at least try to. Dean does look at each betrayal as an affirmation that he really isn't loved. And to prove he is going to push away those he loves. Although Dean does seem to forgive Cas much easier than he does Sam.
I really get Sam way more than I do Dean. So I do hope as well that we get more insight into what makes Dean tick.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-16 00:28
I know I was just trying to try to look at Dean and why he does what he does. Sam is always quick to forgive and move on, or at least try to. Dean does look at each betrayal as an affirmation that he really isn't loved. And to prove he is going to push away those he loves. Although Dean does seem to forgive Cas much easier than he does Sam.
I really get Sam way more than I do Dean. So I do hope as well that we get more insight into what makes Dean tick.
E
# E 2014-02-16 12:11
I get Sam way more than I get Dean as well, which is funny given how much more information we get about Dean then we get about Sam. I'm not sure we need more information about how Dean ticks as much as we need to see Dean do some personal reflection about why trust is so difficult for him and why trusting Sam especially is such a problem. And Dean's lack of trust in Sam really doesn't have much to do with season 4 or even season 8 events; Dean's issues of trust go all the way back to the pilot. I think nappi815 is on to something; Dean doesn't trust Sam because of Dean, and once he realizes this, maybe that will go a long way to him actually beginning to trust Sam, maybe for the first time ever.
E
# E 2014-02-16 12:11
I get Sam way more than I get Dean as well, which is funny given how much more information we get about Dean then we get about Sam. I'm not sure we need more information about how Dean ticks as much as we need to see Dean do some personal reflection about why trust is so difficult for him and why trusting Sam especially is such a problem. And Dean's lack of trust in Sam really doesn't have much to do with season 4 or even season 8 events; Dean's issues of trust go all the way back to the pilot. I think nappi815 is on to something; Dean doesn't trust Sam because of Dean, and once he realizes this, maybe that will go a long way to him actually beginning to trust Sam, maybe for the first time ever.
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-16 12:38
Quoting mary9930:
I agree with you 99.99% Far Away Eyes. I want Dean to treat Sam as a complete equal EXCEPT I want both brothers to move Heaven & Hell for each other no matter the expense. That ridiculously profound bond is what saw them through the Apocalypse, what motivates them to go further & fight harder than any other hunter. I understand that people have been watching their favorite characters for 9 seasons and are very attached to them if not protective of them. But, think about whether you would feel so strongly if they had a healthier relationship. I surely wouldn't. This portion of comment #1 from SueB sums up what I want for their relationship:
"At the end of the day, Dean will always be the older brother and take some level of leadership/patriarch role in their relationship. Sam is going to need to stop resenting this and see that it comes from love, not desperation. Dean, OTOH, is going to have to see Sam's running away as not leaving the family so much as trying to find his own identity. Dean needs to lose the grudge he has over these moments and see the world through Sam's eyes."


Thanks for the comment.

I think the brothers will always have an element to them that would be considered unhealthy in reality. You're right, they face a lot of stuff that is difficult and frightening and therefore it makes them do things that no one else would do. It's who and what they are---and it's why we connect.

I think, really, what I want to see from them is a mutual understanding of one another. When I say that, I don't mean they have to agree or have all their problems fixed, but some understanding of why the other feels or acts the way he does would go a long way for both to prevent the misunderstandin gs they trip over.

I was really moved by how driven Sam was to find Dean---and how angry he was at that cook. It showed to me that the elements that makes these brothers move the world for one another are still there. It told me that when push comes to shove that they'll fight for one another.

Thanks again.
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-16 12:38
Quote:
I agree with you 99.99% Far Away Eyes. I want Dean to treat Sam as a complete equal EXCEPT I want both brothers to move Heaven & Hell for each other no matter the expense. That ridiculously profound bond is what saw them through the Apocalypse, what motivates them to go further & fight harder than any other hunter. I understand that people have been watching their favorite characters for 9 seasons and are very attached to them if not protective of them. But, think about whether you would feel so strongly if they had a healthier relationship. I surely wouldn't. This portion of comment #1 from SueB sums up what I want for their relationship:
"At the end of the day, Dean will always be the older brother and take some level of leadership/patriarch role in their relationship. Sam is going to need to stop resenting this and see that it comes from love, not desperation. Dean, OTOH, is going to have to see Sam's running away as not leaving the family so much as trying to find his own identity. Dean needs to lose the grudge he has over these moments and see the world through Sam's eyes."
Thanks for the comment.

I think the brothers will always have an element to them that would be considered unhealthy in reality. You're right, they face a lot of stuff that is difficult and frightening and therefore it makes them do things that no one else would do. It's who and what they are---and it's why we connect.

I think, really, what I want to see from them is a mutual understanding of one another. When I say that, I don't mean they have to agree or have all their problems fixed, but some understanding of why the other feels or acts the way he does would go a long way for both to prevent the misunderstandin gs they trip over.

I was really moved by how driven Sam was to find Dean---and how angry he was at that cook. It showed to me that the elements that makes these brothers move the world for one another are still there. It told me that when push comes to shove that they'll fight for one another.

Thanks again.
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-16 12:39
Quoting htbrown07:
Excellent review! I have been very bothered reading comments that I believe completely misinterpret Sam's words and actions in this episode. I think you got it right.


Thanks for the comment.

I'm glad you liked my interpretation of this episode.

Thanks again.
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-16 12:39
Quote:
Excellent review! I have been very bothered reading comments that I believe completely misinterpret Sam's words and actions in this episode. I think you got it right.
Thanks for the comment.

I'm glad you liked my interpretation of this episode.

Thanks again.
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-16 12:39
Quoting Bloodina:
Tyvm on another amazing review...you rock!


Thanks for the comment!

I'm glad you think so---on both counts.
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-16 12:39
Quote:
Tyvm on another amazing review...you rock!
Thanks for the comment!

I'm glad you think so---on both counts.
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-16 12:42
Quoting DeanColt45:
This is the best review of The Purge I've read so far. Both sides of Sam and Dean and where they meet in the middle. I'm excited and scared (of course, it's Supernatural!) to see what the next steps will be to Sam and Dean getting back to being brothers, but I also think it's going to happen slower than I want.


Thanks for the comment.

I'm so glad you find my review to be one of the best you've read on this episode. That means a lot to me. This comment humbled me.

Thanks so much!
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2014-02-16 12:42
Quote:
This is the best review of The Purge I've read so far. Both sides of Sam and Dean and where they meet in the middle. I'm excited and scared (of course, it's Supernatural!) to see what the next steps will be to Sam and Dean getting back to being brothers, but I also think it's going to happen slower than I want.
Thanks for the comment.

I'm so glad you find my review to be one of the best you've read on this episode. That means a lot to me. This comment humbled me.

Thanks so much!
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-16 13:42
I don't know. The trust thing has levels. I think they both completely trust each other when it comes to the basics of the job!. I don't think that has ever been a huge issue. But they have BOTH lied and kept thing from each other for various reasons otherwise. Sometimes it was justified to themselves because they thought it was to protect the other. Sometimes it was because they think the other wouldn't approve of something they were doing. I think some of it was forgiven, but none of it was forgotten. And when you factor in that they just don't communicate well anyway, it has eroded their relationship. I can see the love and trust between them in the show in so many ways. Too bad they can't! I am hoping this is building to something good and not another emotional scene that does not get built on or lead to better understanding!!
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-16 13:42
I don't know. The trust thing has levels. I think they both completely trust each other when it comes to the basics of the job!. I don't think that has ever been a huge issue. But they have BOTH lied and kept thing from each other for various reasons otherwise. Sometimes it was justified to themselves because they thought it was to protect the other. Sometimes it was because they think the other wouldn't approve of something they were doing. I think some of it was forgiven, but none of it was forgotten. And when you factor in that they just don't communicate well anyway, it has eroded their relationship. I can see the love and trust between them in the show in so many ways. Too bad they can't! I am hoping this is building to something good and not another emotional scene that does not get built on or lead to better understanding!!
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-16 16:31
hey cheryl, i feel like maybe you thought i was being too harsh in regards to your comment which i was totally not trying to be at all. if it came out that way, i'm very sorry. :sad:
i do agree with leah.
i can't recall a time when dean didn't trust sam as a capable hunter. even as sick as he was with the trials, dean had no doubts that sam would see it through. ironically, i still don't believe that dean really ever truly thought sam would kill benny, as reflected by his total trust in sam in taxi driver that benny would ride out with him. the only time dean really had to watch sam on the job was when he was soulless.
sam had to gain dean's trust back in s4, but in all honesty i was never really sure with what dean's true trust issue was there.i'm leaning towards the db. sam didn't choose ruby over dean. sam didn't do what dean wanted, which was to kill ruby. sam felt he needed her to do the job. i personally am leaning towards the fact that dean was angry with sam because sam felt dean wasn't enough backup to kill lilith. i think it hurt his feelings and he was angry and he cried betrayal. the way i believe sam saw the situation was; he has this demonic ability and so does ruby. sam is the the only one immune to lilith, ruby also could do any deed that sam morally couldn't or wouldn't do and i still think sam was traumatized from when lilith killed dean the first time. i think sam felt lilith killed him once, she could do it again. so ruby was that extra ammo. keeping her around was logical to him. so, sam keeps ruby alive and still needs her with them, dean is all angry and hurt because he thinks sam is choosing ruby and ....dean holds onto the anger and hurt. he eventually trusts sam enough to not worry about sam drinking db and to be fair sam did have to earn that trust back.
in ponr dean told sam that if he can trust in him than the least he could do is trust in sam. just when sam thinks he has dean's trust, dean goes behind sam's back and kills amy. now if dean had just told him what he'd done, sam still would've been upset but i don't think sam would've regressed back into his thinking that his brother doesn't trust him. but dean kept it from sam for some time and sam's back to believing dean doesn't trust him. he pretty much held onto that belief all the way up until sacrifice. and now, just when he thought he had dean's trust, he finds out dean lied to him and here we are.
it seems to me for the most part that dean cries foul when he doesn't like/agree with sam's decisions.
back to psych 101: i think and i could very well be wrong, but i still think a big part of dean's issues with trust go back to him not believing in himself mixed in with his forced parental role. i still think he thinks so little of himself because john basically trained him into being an obedient soldier who's job was to look after sam. i wonder if john ever took the time to tell dean to look out for himself. i'd like to think he did, but dean just doesn't recall or maybe didn't realize that was what john was doing?
follow me on this: a parent lives for the child. parents know that going in, once they have a kid, their life is not their own for the next 18 years. but dean was a kid, not a parent. he was not psychologically or age ready to become a parent. so i don't know if dean understands that a parent does make sacrifices for their children and most of the time they'd be lucky to get a thank you. sam has thanked sam and has noticed all he's done for him by the way. a kid expects the parent to do for them, provide for them, take care of them, love them. at a certain age, the child becomes the adult and the parent, as hard as it is, sets the child free into the world with the hopes that they raised them right. now those parents will still help their children when they need it. they will love them til their dying day but they will also let their children live and make their own decisions even if they make mistakes. if they make mistakes, their parents will hopefully support them and see them through...but in the end, the child gets to live their life.
dean who was never ready for the parent role carried out all the duties of a parent, but one....the one where they let the child go. let them live and learn. let them succeed or fail. allow their children their freedom to choose. dean cannot seem to let go of the parental role he's taken on.
question is....does dean feel that he was forced to take on the role of parent so it's his right, for doing all he's done for sam, it's his right to override any decision sam makes that he doesn't agree with? does he think sam and the world owe him? it's his reward? or is it that dean has been a parent for so long that if he's not taking care of sam, he'll feel like he's not a person. is sam really dean's only purpose?
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-16 16:31
hey cheryl, i feel like maybe you thought i was being too harsh in regards to your comment which i was totally not trying to be at all. if it came out that way, i'm very sorry. :sad:
i do agree with leah.
i can't recall a time when dean didn't trust sam as a capable hunter. even as sick as he was with the trials, dean had no doubts that sam would see it through. ironically, i still don't believe that dean really ever truly thought sam would kill benny, as reflected by his total trust in sam in taxi driver that benny would ride out with him. the only time dean really had to watch sam on the job was when he was soulless.
sam had to gain dean's trust back in s4, but in all honesty i was never really sure with what dean's true trust issue was there.i'm leaning towards the db. sam didn't choose ruby over dean. sam didn't do what dean wanted, which was to kill ruby. sam felt he needed her to do the job. i personally am leaning towards the fact that dean was angry with sam because sam felt dean wasn't enough backup to kill lilith. i think it hurt his feelings and he was angry and he cried betrayal. the way i believe sam saw the situation was; he has this demonic ability and so does ruby. sam is the the only one immune to lilith, ruby also could do any deed that sam morally couldn't or wouldn't do and i still think sam was traumatized from when lilith killed dean the first time. i think sam felt lilith killed him once, she could do it again. so ruby was that extra ammo. keeping her around was logical to him. so, sam keeps ruby alive and still needs her with them, dean is all angry and hurt because he thinks sam is choosing ruby and ....dean holds onto the anger and hurt. he eventually trusts sam enough to not worry about sam drinking db and to be fair sam did have to earn that trust back.
in ponr dean told sam that if he can trust in him than the least he could do is trust in sam. just when sam thinks he has dean's trust, dean goes behind sam's back and kills amy. now if dean had just told him what he'd done, sam still would've been upset but i don't think sam would've regressed back into his thinking that his brother doesn't trust him. but dean kept it from sam for some time and sam's back to believing dean doesn't trust him. he pretty much held onto that belief all the way up until sacrifice. and now, just when he thought he had dean's trust, he finds out dean lied to him and here we are.
it seems to me for the most part that dean cries foul when he doesn't like/agree with sam's decisions.
back to psych 101: i think and i could very well be wrong, but i still think a big part of dean's issues with trust go back to him not believing in himself mixed in with his forced parental role. i still think he thinks so little of himself because john basically trained him into being an obedient soldier who's job was to look after sam. i wonder if john ever took the time to tell dean to look out for himself. i'd like to think he did, but dean just doesn't recall or maybe didn't realize that was what john was doing?
follow me on this: a parent lives for the child. parents know that going in, once they have a kid, their life is not their own for the next 18 years. but dean was a kid, not a parent. he was not psychologically or age ready to become a parent. so i don't know if dean understands that a parent does make sacrifices for their children and most of the time they'd be lucky to get a thank you. sam has thanked sam and has noticed all he's done for him by the way. a kid expects the parent to do for them, provide for them, take care of them, love them. at a certain age, the child becomes the adult and the parent, as hard as it is, sets the child free into the world with the hopes that they raised them right. now those parents will still help their children when they need it. they will love them til their dying day but they will also let their children live and make their own decisions even if they make mistakes. if they make mistakes, their parents will hopefully support them and see them through...but in the end, the child gets to live their life.
dean who was never ready for the parent role carried out all the duties of a parent, but one....the one where they let the child go. let them live and learn. let them succeed or fail. allow their children their freedom to choose. dean cannot seem to let go of the parental role he's taken on.
question is....does dean feel that he was forced to take on the role of parent so it's his right, for doing all he's done for sam, it's his right to override any decision sam makes that he doesn't agree with? does he think sam and the world owe him? it's his reward? or is it that dean has been a parent for so long that if he's not taking care of sam, he'll feel like he's not a person. is sam really dean's only purpose?
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-16 16:46
if it's the latter, that's not good. it's not good for sam and most definitely not good for dean.
don't get me wrong, sam needs a couch session too. think about how sam got back into hunting in the first place. i know jess dying had him leave school, but it was dean's plea that he didn't want to be alone that had sam drop everything and take off with him. sam has admitted to always wanting to be like his big brother. and he also admitted in the man who knew too much that he wasn't going to leave his brother alone out there. sam isn't unaware that dean needs him. and i think that makes sam feel good. to know somebody needs you. it gives you a sense of value. in sacrifice, at first sam didn't really seem to care if he died. for sam, it would be better than disappointing dean. but when dean said that no one came before him, when he begged him to see that, you can hear the need in dean's voice. dean needed sam to understand that he came first. always had, always will. it was dean's need that had sam ask dean , what do i do? when sam was in his coma, facing the inevitable fact that his body was dying and there was no way out for him, he thus accepted his fate. when dean/zeke came in with that hail mary pass, using the words there aint no me if there aint no you, sam said yes. again, dean needed sam and sam chose dean. i think sam feels like he has purpose when he is needed by his brother. just like dean has purpose when he is looking out for sam.
in moderation, this is a wonderful thing. but in it's extremes, not so much. again it goes back to both boys feeling unworthy.
they have to start seeing themselves as worthy so that they can let go of these issues they have that affect ea. other. once they do that, they can start to fix things and finally they can have a healthy strong brother relationship with a little less dys in their function. ;-)
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-16 16:46
if it's the latter, that's not good. it's not good for sam and most definitely not good for dean.
don't get me wrong, sam needs a couch session too. think about how sam got back into hunting in the first place. i know jess dying had him leave school, but it was dean's plea that he didn't want to be alone that had sam drop everything and take off with him. sam has admitted to always wanting to be like his big brother. and he also admitted in the man who knew too much that he wasn't going to leave his brother alone out there. sam isn't unaware that dean needs him. and i think that makes sam feel good. to know somebody needs you. it gives you a sense of value. in sacrifice, at first sam didn't really seem to care if he died. for sam, it would be better than disappointing dean. but when dean said that no one came before him, when he begged him to see that, you can hear the need in dean's voice. dean needed sam to understand that he came first. always had, always will. it was dean's need that had sam ask dean , what do i do? when sam was in his coma, facing the inevitable fact that his body was dying and there was no way out for him, he thus accepted his fate. when dean/zeke came in with that hail mary pass, using the words there aint no me if there aint no you, sam said yes. again, dean needed sam and sam chose dean. i think sam feels like he has purpose when he is needed by his brother. just like dean has purpose when he is looking out for sam.
in moderation, this is a wonderful thing. but in it's extremes, not so much. again it goes back to both boys feeling unworthy.
they have to start seeing themselves as worthy so that they can let go of these issues they have that affect ea. other. once they do that, they can start to fix things and finally they can have a healthy strong brother relationship with a little less dys in their function. ;-)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-16 17:44
Nappi no not at all. I was looking for some insight into Dean. He is a hard character for me to pin down. So any thoughts that don't slam him or Sam is most welcome. Your thoughts on Dean and his role with Sam help me understand a little better. :-)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-16 17:44
Nappi no not at all. I was looking for some insight into Dean. He is a hard character for me to pin down. So any thoughts that don't slam him or Sam is most welcome. Your thoughts on Dean and his role with Sam help me understand a little better. :-)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-16 17:48
Dys in their function :lol: They really need to listen to Cas don't they.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-16 17:48
Dys in their function :lol: They really need to listen to Cas don't they.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-16 17:48
i'm glad cheryl. i felt bad today. i had to go to work, so i had to wait til i got back to make sure. :lol:
i love both these boys...but as my shirt says...i'm a sam girl who's dean curious.
i lean towards dean possibly thinking this way or that...but in all honesty, i really need to hear it straight from that stud, i mean steed's, mouth :D
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-16 17:48
i'm glad cheryl. i felt bad today. i had to go to work, so i had to wait til i got back to make sure. :lol:
i love both these boys...but as my shirt says...i'm a sam girl who's dean curious.
i lean towards dean possibly thinking this way or that...but in all honesty, i really need to hear it straight from that stud, i mean steed's, mouth :D
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-17 05:08
Quoting nappi815:
i'm a sam girl who's dean curious.


Bad Nappi, you've got me thinking VERY dirty thoughts now. I won't elaborate :D

(Admittedly it doesn't take much to get me thinking naughty things about our boys)
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-17 05:08
Quote:
i'm a sam girl who's dean curious.
Bad Nappi, you've got me thinking VERY dirty thoughts now. I won't elaborate :D

(Admittedly it doesn't take much to get me thinking naughty things about our boys)
Puck
# Puck 2014-02-25 21:00
Far Away Eyes you continue to say what I want to say ever so much more eloquently. Cheers!
Puck
# Puck 2014-02-25 21:00
Far Away Eyes you continue to say what I want to say ever so much more eloquently. Cheers!