Well. Hmmm. This was a hard episode for me. I didn’t enjoy it. When I get a strong negative reaction to an episode, I try and let it sit for a bit, simmer in the background. What I’m hoping comes to the surface is a sense of which parts I’m not enjoying because the story is dealing with difficult issues and is therefore hard to watch, and which parts I’m not enjoying because I don’t think the tale is being well told. After three rewatches over a couple days, I’ve decided my reaction is a mixture of both.

SamDean bed

I can see what writer Adam Glass is going for, and it’s no surprise the boys are not on the same page and Sam is feeling angry and betrayed.  I knew there would not be an instafix and I don’t want one.  Glass layered enough resonant lines throughout the episode to allow this Monster of the Week story to resonate with the overall arc, and I like that. 

Glass brings back Garth, a character about whom I am lukewarm. I don’t dislike him, but neither do I long for his return when he’s not in the story. I do tend to like it, though, when the writers examine shades of grey in the monster world, so I was onboard for this werewolf, er sorry, lycanthrope tale. I didn’t mind the additions to werewolf lore Glass added. Over nine seasons, the mythology does need to evolve. I’m good with that as long as the new mythology doesn’t directly contradict the old, and I don’t think the idea of hereditary werewolves does that.

I was less taken with the actual plot. It felt pedestrian, but I did like the way Dean had to admit Reverend Jim had a point when he said, “The road to revenge is a dark and lonely one which you never get off and that hole in your stomach, you never fill it, ever.”

DeanLunch

The words are very timely for Dean, so I liked seeing the elder Winchester take them in. I felt like Dean was finally raising his head from the black hole he fell into when he realized the full consequences of letting Gadreel into Sam. Last week, Dean looked like he was looking for a way to punish himself, uncaring of the price of the Mark of Cain, because he deserves whatever it will be. He was not just hard but harsh, focused on his ability to kill. In Reverend Jim’s words, he was on a dark and lonely road.

This week, he takes in both the reverend’s words about the dangers of revenge and the words about the power of family. Concentrating on what he had rather than what he lost kept a good man from turning bad, something that resonates for Dean—and for me, given the mark Dean has on his arm.

Glass continues the theme of what family can do as Sam and Dean demonstrate why they are such a good team. They act as each other’s check and balance, with Sam putting the brakes on Dean when he wants to act too quickly, and Dean keeping focused on what doesn’t smell right when Sam is ready to accept what they’ve seen. The Winchesters are a good team when they allow themselves to be.

Garth has his own wisdom to offer the brothers. The quirky hunter has his own perspective on Sam and Dean, one I think we are supposed to think has some merit. He describes Dean as being a tough badass, but “deep down inside, he’s just a big old teddy bear.” Sam he sees as sometimes insecure, but for good reasons.  The words are poignant, given Dean’s heart led him to make some really bad decisions, and Sam’s insecurities about his worth are driving a lot of his decisions right now.

promo008

Garth and Dean’s final scene is very touching, as Dean tries to take all the blame for Kevin, and Garth says there’s enough blame to go around.  Garth then offers to make things right by returning to hunting, but Dean recognizes the value of what Garth has found. “You got something here, even if they are werewolves or lycanthropes . . . don’t let that go. You’ll never forgive yourself.”

Clearly, Dean is looking at his own family and what he may have lost. Between Reverend Jim’s words about revenge vs family and Garth’s taking a curse and turning it into love, he’s ready to reach out to Sam.

In some ways, the time looks opportune. Both Sam and Dean have already been changed by their difficulties. When they meet in Garth’s hospital room, each one tells the other the truth of what they’ve been doing, despite the strained atmosphere.

But Sam’s headspace is still centered on how hurt he is. When he hears about the Mark of Cain, which is a big enough deal he should be both gobsmacked and worried about the implications, he instead focuses on Dean hunting with Crowley, as if that’s the most important part of the story. At that moment, for Sam, it is, because he’s so upset with Dean’s decision to leave rather than face Sam’s anger.

So it’s no surprise Dean’s attempt to reach out to his brother has very mixed results. Dean tries his best to let Sam know how sorry he is, saying he knows he took a piece of Sam when he let Gadreel in. But he can’t quite say he’s sorry he saved Sam’s life. Both last week and this week, characters have talked about the value of life, and Dean still believes in the value of Sam’s, even if his own need for Sam was also a factor.

Sam can hear what’s missing in Dean’s words. He hasn’t heard what he wants to hear, which is that he has the right to decide his part in their story. From the moment Dean tried to again do what he thought was best for Sam by fobbing him off the case, Sam’s frustration and anger mounted. Dean’s opening gives him the opportunity to let loose his feelings.

Up till this point in the story, I was along for the ride. The strained silences, the awkward pauses, shifty eyes –they aren’t enjoyable to watch, but they are warranted.

But I had difficulty with the way Sam framed his issues.

Adam Glass has put me in this spot before. I really detested Glass’s “Southern Comfort,” another Garth episode. The brothers were in another emotionally fraught place, with hurt feelings being vented. Again, much was warranted. But rather than concentrating on issues which resonated for me because I’d seen them played out onscreen, Glass threw in the kitchen sink.

Dean not only resented Sam for not looking for him, he suddenly resented him for returning soulless from Hell, as if Sam had anything to do with that. Dean knew from the first meeting this person who looked like Sam was in some indefinable way not Sam, and he found out Cas was responsible for bringing Sam back without his soul. I didn’t see anything in season six or seven to suggest Dean harboured great resentment toward Sam for something he had nothing to do with. Dean’s issues were with Cas.

I had issues with the development of the brothers’ relationship all the way through season eight. From getting little glimpse into Sam’s headspace when he lost Dean to not understanding Sam’s attitude to Benny, not much resonated about the brothers for me—until “Sacrifice.”

When Sam finally told Dean he felt he just let people down over and over and that his attitude to Benny was because he was afraid Dean was looking for another, better, brother, I felt I had some context for the way he both pushed Dean away and expected to remain the centre of his attention. I loved that Dean reached through Sam’s insecurities and plainly told him he was not looking for another brother. He loves Sam, first and foremost. It felt like a breakthrough, both for the brothers and for my ability to enjoy season eight.

So I wasn’t overjoyed when Sam framed his need for autonomy by saying, “Back in that church, talking me out of boarding up hell or tricking me into letting Gadreel possess me? I can’t trust you, not the way I thought I could, not the way I should be able to.”

Sam

I understand Sam’s anger about Gadreel. Dean’s actions were a breach of trust. But Sam made his own decision about the gates of Hell. Dean didn’t force him to do anything. And Sam’s reasoning about completing the trials at the expense of his life was he just let people down over and over, so why not sacrifice himself. Is that supposed to be healthy? Mature?

Adding to my discomfort with conflating the church scene with Gadreel’s possession, Sam then responds to Dean saying they are still family with “You say that like it’s some sort of cure all, like it can change the fact that everything that’s gone wrong between us is because we’re family.”

I agree that Dean does hope saying they are family will lessen Sam’s justifiable anger, when what he needs to do is really listen to Sam and let him air his feelings. And he has made iffy decisions to keep his family together. So has Sam.

But Sam is retconning his past if he thinks his poor decisions in season four were because of Dean’s definition of family. Sam’s worst decisions were made when he turned away from Dean and fell under Ruby’s sway. And yes, he wanted to prove to Dean he was strong, but Sam also was proud and filled with anger. Ruby played on his weaknesses and she made sure to separate Sam from Dean, knowing Dean was a hindrance to her plans for Sam.

Zachariah viewed the boys’ relationship the same way. He took Dean into the future to show him staying with Sam was a weakness he couldn’t afford. Dean took the opposite message and reached out to Sam, to Sam’s relief at the time.

And was it a mistake for Dean to drive out to Stull’s Cemetery and tell his brother, “Sam, it's okay. It's okay. I'm here. I'm here. I'm not gonna leave you”? Dean helped Sam find the strength to fight Lucifer, which saved the world and allowed Sam to define himself the way he wanted. As Chuck said, the Winchesters did all right.

Bobby

Dean may be trying to avoid a hard conversation when he says no matter what, he and Sam are family, but he’s also drawing on Bobby’s wisdom. When Dean was ready to disown Sam for choosing Ruby after nearly killing him, Bobby gave him no sympathy. Instead, he reminded Dean that with all the capacity for hurt it has, family is still important, and walking away from Sam would only push Sam further along his dark path. Sam needed Dean, whether he knew it or not. The parallel to Dean’s situation this season is striking.

I only hope the parallels with seasons four and five include Bobby’s view of family. I hope Sam’s view of “Sacrifice” is coloured by his anger and hurt and he was striking out rather giving his real opinion on Dean’s words to him. I hope he got in the car because he doesn’t really want to lose Dean, even if he can’t quite admit it. And I hope we get some resolution on whether he really resents that he’s been unable to sacrifice himself to balance his books.

Because watching Sam and Dean together this episode was not enjoyable for me. This version of the relationship is missing the heart and soul of the show for me. And I resent it when the writers craft a touchstone scene and then drain it of all power retroactively. The danger of doing that is I will find it difficult to believe any upcoming scenes which purport to move the boys forward.

Dean

I’m still onboard with season nine, but the way the relationship is now being explored does bring all my issues with the first half of season eight to the fore, when I thought they were in the past. I’m not happy about that.

Thanks to homeofthenutty for the photos.



Comments  

LEAH
# LEAH 2014-01-29 23:28
Gerry I really enjoyed your review. Many of the things you had a problem with I did too. Even some of the issues from the dreaded S8. I repeatedly see references to what a jerk Dean is for holding SS against Sam. Ugh. I never saw Dean fling that up to Sam in any way before S8. One mention of it in season 8 and it is now cannon. I loved Sacrifice and saw it as a great beginning of a dialogue between the boys which I hoped would carry over to this year. We may still get there. Sam hopefully will get to articulate fully what the "problem" is and Dean will hopefully understand and recognize what Sam is trying to say. The ending scene did not set well. I didn't really understand why they even got into the car with each other. It was an OK episode with some good parts, overall not eager for a rewatch though.
LEAH
# LEAH 2014-01-29 23:28
Gerry I really enjoyed your review. Many of the things you had a problem with I did too. Even some of the issues from the dreaded S8. I repeatedly see references to what a jerk Dean is for holding SS against Sam. Ugh. I never saw Dean fling that up to Sam in any way before S8. One mention of it in season 8 and it is now cannon. I loved Sacrifice and saw it as a great beginning of a dialogue between the boys which I hoped would carry over to this year. We may still get there. Sam hopefully will get to articulate fully what the "problem" is and Dean will hopefully understand and recognize what Sam is trying to say. The ending scene did not set well. I didn't really understand why they even got into the car with each other. It was an OK episode with some good parts, overall not eager for a rewatch though.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-01-29 23:46
Great review. I'm not completely in agreement but I am having some different thoughts based on this review and glad you didn't just unilaterally bash one brother over the other which I'm seeing elsewhere on the 'net.
Yeah, throwing in their decision from Sacrifice does sound like a misstep. It doesn't have anything to do with their current fight, I think. Perhaps Glass simply mis-wrote this.

I like that this review was a pretty balanced one overall.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-01-29 23:46
Great review. I'm not completely in agreement but I am having some different thoughts based on this review and glad you didn't just unilaterally bash one brother over the other which I'm seeing elsewhere on the 'net.
Yeah, throwing in their decision from Sacrifice does sound like a misstep. It doesn't have anything to do with their current fight, I think. Perhaps Glass simply mis-wrote this.

I like that this review was a pretty balanced one overall.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-01-29 23:52
Okay Leah, you're right. I was rather puzzled at them getting into the dar together. Especially after what was just said between them but Ive decided to approach it positively. After all you cant solve a problem with someone whose not there or not talking to you.

I didn't have a problem with what Sam said but I seem to be alone in that viewpoint. I heard it as a demandfor Dean to find some other way to express his love of family. Just Imo, though.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-01-29 23:52
Okay Leah, you're right. I was rather puzzled at them getting into the dar together. Especially after what was just said between them but Ive decided to approach it positively. After all you cant solve a problem with someone whose not there or not talking to you.

I didn't have a problem with what Sam said but I seem to be alone in that viewpoint. I heard it as a demandfor Dean to find some other way to express his love of family. Just Imo, though.
leah d
# leah d 2014-01-30 00:22
Ikeke35@3 Ya know, I just wasn't crazy about the writing in general in that episode and, although I think Sam is completely justified in his anger and in articulating that anger, it was just awkwardly written IMO. That "brother" thing for instance. I don't think Sam meant hat he didn't want to be brothers anymore or that it was a threat to disown Dean but the way it was written is going to be interpreted that way. I think he meant they had work to do, so to speak, on their relationship as brothers. Z
leah d
# leah d 2014-01-30 00:22
Ikeke35@3 Ya know, I just wasn't crazy about the writing in general in that episode and, although I think Sam is completely justified in his anger and in articulating that anger, it was just awkwardly written IMO. That "brother" thing for instance. I don't think Sam meant hat he didn't want to be brothers anymore or that it was a threat to disown Dean but the way it was written is going to be interpreted that way. I think he meant they had work to do, so to speak, on their relationship as brothers. Z
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2014-01-30 00:30
Thanks for an excellent and balanced review. Like Ikeke35, I'm not completely in agreement with you but I understand your misgivings.

It wasn't my favourite standalone episode and coming after the last three weeks, which were all brilliant, it had a lot to live up to I think. But that said, I still enjoyed it.

I have put my opinion about Sam & Dean's current relationship on Sophia's review so I won't go into it again here, except to repeat that I don't think Sam can see beyond his own grief yet to even begin to comprehend how badly Dean is coping.

I know from a personal perspective that when I've spoken in anger or in the heat of the moment, I've often ended up regretting things I've said. And, when I'm angry I don't make a lot of sense. Heck, I can't even remember what I've said half the time. I'm so much better at writing my thoughts down than expressing them out loud.

We know Sam keeps things to himself - and I think he's just not in a place where he can articulate his feelings rationally and reasonably to Dean. I can totally relate to this. We might be able to imagine the perfect way for Sam to have spoken to Dean, but in reality how often does this actually happen? It's usually afterwards that we say, why didn't I express myself better?

I like that we've not had a quick fix to the brothers' problems. That wouldn't be real.

But I think it's promising that Dean tried to talk to Sam and I think it's promising that Sam, even though he didn't express himself well, got back into the impala. They are headed slowly in the right direction.

Anyhow, just my thoughts. I enjoyed reading your review.
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2014-01-30 00:30
Thanks for an excellent and balanced review. Like Ikeke35, I'm not completely in agreement with you but I understand your misgivings.

It wasn't my favourite standalone episode and coming after the last three weeks, which were all brilliant, it had a lot to live up to I think. But that said, I still enjoyed it.

I have put my opinion about Sam & Dean's current relationship on Sophia's review so I won't go into it again here, except to repeat that I don't think Sam can see beyond his own grief yet to even begin to comprehend how badly Dean is coping.

I know from a personal perspective that when I've spoken in anger or in the heat of the moment, I've often ended up regretting things I've said. And, when I'm angry I don't make a lot of sense. Heck, I can't even remember what I've said half the time. I'm so much better at writing my thoughts down than expressing them out loud.

We know Sam keeps things to himself - and I think he's just not in a place where he can articulate his feelings rationally and reasonably to Dean. I can totally relate to this. We might be able to imagine the perfect way for Sam to have spoken to Dean, but in reality how often does this actually happen? It's usually afterwards that we say, why didn't I express myself better?

I like that we've not had a quick fix to the brothers' problems. That wouldn't be real.

But I think it's promising that Dean tried to talk to Sam and I think it's promising that Sam, even though he didn't express himself well, got back into the impala. They are headed slowly in the right direction.

Anyhow, just my thoughts. I enjoyed reading your review.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-30 07:46
i get sam 's doubt of dean right now. think about sam's speech to dean in sacrifice. he said to dean "what happens when you decide i can't be trusted again?, who are you going to turn to instead of me, another angel? another, another vampire? do you have any idea what it's like to watch your brother......th en dean cuts sam off. wait is that what you really think, because it's never been like that ever.....right there, dean was reassuring sam that he never trusted anyone over him. that sam came first. it's sam's belief in dean's words that helped him decide to stay. to finally believe that dean trusted him and didn't see him as failure sam sees himself to be. then sam learns that dean has been lying to him since that night. he was tricked into saying yes to gadreel and then dean continued to lie to sam. he let sam believe there was something wrong inside him. that it was just him. still dean didn't tell sam the truth. then when sam does, why is so hard to understand that he would doubt dean at the church, that dean doesn't truly trust sam, but simply said those things so that dean wouldn't be alone? can you see where sam is coming from? if dean truly trusted in him as he claimed, then why did he find the need to lie to him, first thing, for so very long? of course sam is doubting dean's words. dean hasn't showed any true belief in sam, by lying to him.
now we know the lies came from fear. we know dean did mean what he said at that church, but really what's sam supposed to believe? dean hasn't showed any faith in him at all.

so i don't think glass diminished what was said a the church. i think it's more of a point, that dean has to understand. sam questions dean's words because of dean's lying to sam. if they are going to work on being brothers, which was sam's point to dean, then they have to work on their relationship, and the we're family card can't fix what's wrong. they have to deal with their issues with ea. other to fix what's wrong. although sam was hurt and angry and didn't get into it with dean at that moment, sam got into baby without hestiation. he went with his brother when he could've turned around and got in that awesome car he was driving. and rode away. but sam loves dean and wants to fix what's wrong. he took the first step in doing just that.

jmo of course.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-30 07:46
i get sam 's doubt of dean right now. think about sam's speech to dean in sacrifice. he said to dean "what happens when you decide i can't be trusted again?, who are you going to turn to instead of me, another angel? another, another vampire? do you have any idea what it's like to watch your brother......th en dean cuts sam off. wait is that what you really think, because it's never been like that ever.....right there, dean was reassuring sam that he never trusted anyone over him. that sam came first. it's sam's belief in dean's words that helped him decide to stay. to finally believe that dean trusted him and didn't see him as failure sam sees himself to be. then sam learns that dean has been lying to him since that night. he was tricked into saying yes to gadreel and then dean continued to lie to sam. he let sam believe there was something wrong inside him. that it was just him. still dean didn't tell sam the truth. then when sam does, why is so hard to understand that he would doubt dean at the church, that dean doesn't truly trust sam, but simply said those things so that dean wouldn't be alone? can you see where sam is coming from? if dean truly trusted in him as he claimed, then why did he find the need to lie to him, first thing, for so very long? of course sam is doubting dean's words. dean hasn't showed any true belief in sam, by lying to him.
now we know the lies came from fear. we know dean did mean what he said at that church, but really what's sam supposed to believe? dean hasn't showed any faith in him at all.

so i don't think glass diminished what was said a the church. i think it's more of a point, that dean has to understand. sam questions dean's words because of dean's lying to sam. if they are going to work on being brothers, which was sam's point to dean, then they have to work on their relationship, and the we're family card can't fix what's wrong. they have to deal with their issues with ea. other to fix what's wrong. although sam was hurt and angry and didn't get into it with dean at that moment, sam got into baby without hestiation. he went with his brother when he could've turned around and got in that awesome car he was driving. and rode away. but sam loves dean and wants to fix what's wrong. he took the first step in doing just that.

jmo of course.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-01-30 09:16
I think you're right nappi815, but I think there is another problem too. One that has been there ever since the pilot.

That is the disconnect between Dean's expectations of Sam (to keep hunting) and Dean's total unwillingness to accept the likely outcome of Sam hunting (Sam's death). This disconnect always been there, but that scene in the church in 8.23 made it very obvious.

I would not trust a hunting partner who was gung-ho about something as high-risk as The Trials, then bailed at the last minute because they weren't willing to accept the price. The likelihood of Sam dying from the last Trial shouldn't have been a surprise to Dean. Sam was clearly on his last legs.

Sam went through all that pain and illness to close the gates of Hell, just to have Dean talk him out of it at the last minute? I'd be angry too; not because Dean persuaded me to stop the Trials, but because he hadn't considered this possible outcome before Sam continued with The Trials.

(I know Sam initially said he didn't intend it to be a suicide mission, but as things went along it was pretty clear he wasn't going to make it.)

Clearly there are a lot of writing issues here. I think Dean, as he is normally written, is clever enough to have seen the likelihood of Sam dying from The Trials. I think the writers were handing him the proverbial Idiot Ball. But given the canon we have, I can understand why Sam is upset about the situation in the church.

Still, it would have made more sense to focus on the possession trick and ongoing lies. Of course I would want my brother to try and save my life, but not at all costs. Not if it meant being possessed, when I had previously been possessed and forced to kill innocents. And Dean KNEW Sam didn't want that. That's what would make me angry if I was Sam anyway.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-01-30 09:16
I think you're right nappi815, but I think there is another problem too. One that has been there ever since the pilot.

That is the disconnect between Dean's expectations of Sam (to keep hunting) and Dean's total unwillingness to accept the likely outcome of Sam hunting (Sam's death). This disconnect always been there, but that scene in the church in 8.23 made it very obvious.

I would not trust a hunting partner who was gung-ho about something as high-risk as The Trials, then bailed at the last minute because they weren't willing to accept the price. The likelihood of Sam dying from the last Trial shouldn't have been a surprise to Dean. Sam was clearly on his last legs.

Sam went through all that pain and illness to close the gates of Hell, just to have Dean talk him out of it at the last minute? I'd be angry too; not because Dean persuaded me to stop the Trials, but because he hadn't considered this possible outcome before Sam continued with The Trials.

(I know Sam initially said he didn't intend it to be a suicide mission, but as things went along it was pretty clear he wasn't going to make it.)

Clearly there are a lot of writing issues here. I think Dean, as he is normally written, is clever enough to have seen the likelihood of Sam dying from The Trials. I think the writers were handing him the proverbial Idiot Ball. But given the canon we have, I can understand why Sam is upset about the situation in the church.

Still, it would have made more sense to focus on the possession trick and ongoing lies. Of course I would want my brother to try and save my life, but not at all costs. Not if it meant being possessed, when I had previously been possessed and forced to kill innocents. And Dean KNEW Sam didn't want that. That's what would make me angry if I was Sam anyway.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 09:26
Quoting LEAH:
Gerry I really enjoyed your review. Many of the things you had a problem with I did too. Even some of the issues from the dreaded S8. I repeatedly see references to what a jerk Dean is for holding SS against Sam. Ugh. I never saw Dean fling that up to Sam in any way before S8. One mention of it in season 8 and it is now cannon. I loved Sacrifice and saw it as a great beginning of a dialogue between the boys which I hoped would carry over to this year. We may still get there. Sam hopefully will get to articulate fully what the "problem" is and Dean will hopefully understand and recognize what Sam is trying to say. The ending scene did not set well. I didn't really understand why they even got into the car with each other. It was an OK episode with some good parts, overall not eager for a rewatch though.


Hi Leah, thanks for reading! Yes, a big issue for me is what Sam's words mean in context of season 8 and how little discussion we got then of the relationship, despite the huge issues between the brothers. I hope what we get this season ties into that, now that Glass has revived those issues. Sigh.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 09:26
Quote:
Gerry I really enjoyed your review. Many of the things you had a problem with I did too. Even some of the issues from the dreaded S8. I repeatedly see references to what a jerk Dean is for holding SS against Sam. Ugh. I never saw Dean fling that up to Sam in any way before S8. One mention of it in season 8 and it is now cannon. I loved Sacrifice and saw it as a great beginning of a dialogue between the boys which I hoped would carry over to this year. We may still get there. Sam hopefully will get to articulate fully what the "problem" is and Dean will hopefully understand and recognize what Sam is trying to say. The ending scene did not set well. I didn't really understand why they even got into the car with each other. It was an OK episode with some good parts, overall not eager for a rewatch though.
Hi Leah, thanks for reading! Yes, a big issue for me is what Sam's words mean in context of season 8 and how little discussion we got then of the relationship, despite the huge issues between the brothers. I hope what we get this season ties into that, now that Glass has revived those issues. Sigh.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 09:30
Quoting lkeke35:
Great review. I'm not completely in agreement but I am having some different thoughts based on this review and glad you didn't just unilaterally bash one brother over the other which I'm seeing elsewhere on the 'net.
Yeah, throwing in their decision from Sacrifice does sound like a misstep. It doesn't have anything to do with their current fight, I think. Perhaps Glass simply mis-wrote this.

I like that this review was a pretty balanced one overall.


Hi Ikeke35! Thank you for finding the review balanced. I love both boys and always have. I also appreciate all points of view and welcome the discussion!

KG-SPN, I agree with your point that Sam may well not have given his rational response to Dean and instead may have been speaking from angry emotion. I hope that the writers follow that line and if they do, I will be remain happy with how this season is developing.

But I am suspicious, because I did not get the kind of discussion I thought was warranted between the boys in season 8 on a number of issues and even Sacrifice in my opinion only started the dialogue. Now instead of moving forward, Sam is taking away what Sacrifice offered. I am hoping there will be a satisfying way to revisit all this.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 09:30
Quote:
Great review. I'm not completely in agreement but I am having some different thoughts based on this review and glad you didn't just unilaterally bash one brother over the other which I'm seeing elsewhere on the 'net.
Yeah, throwing in their decision from Sacrifice does sound like a misstep. It doesn't have anything to do with their current fight, I think. Perhaps Glass simply mis-wrote this.

I like that this review was a pretty balanced one overall.
Hi Ikeke35! Thank you for finding the review balanced. I love both boys and always have. I also appreciate all points of view and welcome the discussion!

KG-SPN, I agree with your point that Sam may well not have given his rational response to Dean and instead may have been speaking from angry emotion. I hope that the writers follow that line and if they do, I will be remain happy with how this season is developing.

But I am suspicious, because I did not get the kind of discussion I thought was warranted between the boys in season 8 on a number of issues and even Sacrifice in my opinion only started the dialogue. Now instead of moving forward, Sam is taking away what Sacrifice offered. I am hoping there will be a satisfying way to revisit all this.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 10:02
Hi Nappi815! I hear you about Sam being upset at Dean lying to him and that is a key issue in his view. Where we differ is our interpretation of how Sam framed the church issue. At the church, Sam was willing to die because he felt he just let Dean down over and over and that Dean never forgave him and was on the lookout for another brother, like Benny. Deans words to him were reassuring him on that score - that he would never put anyone before Sam. Sam then made his own choice on whether that was enough for him to stand down from the Trials. His argument to Dean in this episode is that talking Sam down from completing the Trials was wrong in and of itself, and that he sees his role in this battle of right and wrong differently than Dean.

It is an old argument between them. In the first season, Sam sided with John on not bringing the colt as protection when they faced the demons, while Dean brought it anyway because he was going to protect his family even if that meant not priorizing the mission first. Sam was torn when possessed John ordered his son to kill him while Dean begged him not to, and he eventually went with Deans sense of right, not Johns. And the series in my opinion backed Deans sense of protecting family up. Certainly Bobby did in Lucifer Rising, calling Dean a better man than his dad because he could forgive Sam no matter how hurt he was and be there for his brother.

So if Sam sees their vision of their role as fundamentally different, I see him as taking up Johns mantle of sacrificing everything for the job, including family, which is how Sam and Dean got raised the way they were.

Sams words to me also contradict his own position in season 8, when he decided he could walk away from everything, because it was not his job to save the world. Bad things happen all the time; it is just the way things are. Then he decided it was his job to save the world because he is so flawed. Dean trying to find a middle ground seemed to me to reach Sam for a reason. If we are going to revisit all this, and as a viewer I would just as soon leave it all in the rear view mirror because I thought season 8 did a poor job with it all, I want the discussion to include all aspects, not just Sams selective memory. If Sam here is supposed to have a skewed perspective because he is hurt and angry, this scene will play for me. If he is supposed to be espousing a mature point of view Dean needs to adopt himself, I am much less happy.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 10:02
Hi Nappi815! I hear you about Sam being upset at Dean lying to him and that is a key issue in his view. Where we differ is our interpretation of how Sam framed the church issue. At the church, Sam was willing to die because he felt he just let Dean down over and over and that Dean never forgave him and was on the lookout for another brother, like Benny. Deans words to him were reassuring him on that score - that he would never put anyone before Sam. Sam then made his own choice on whether that was enough for him to stand down from the Trials. His argument to Dean in this episode is that talking Sam down from completing the Trials was wrong in and of itself, and that he sees his role in this battle of right and wrong differently than Dean.

It is an old argument between them. In the first season, Sam sided with John on not bringing the colt as protection when they faced the demons, while Dean brought it anyway because he was going to protect his family even if that meant not priorizing the mission first. Sam was torn when possessed John ordered his son to kill him while Dean begged him not to, and he eventually went with Deans sense of right, not Johns. And the series in my opinion backed Deans sense of protecting family up. Certainly Bobby did in Lucifer Rising, calling Dean a better man than his dad because he could forgive Sam no matter how hurt he was and be there for his brother.

So if Sam sees their vision of their role as fundamentally different, I see him as taking up Johns mantle of sacrificing everything for the job, including family, which is how Sam and Dean got raised the way they were.

Sams words to me also contradict his own position in season 8, when he decided he could walk away from everything, because it was not his job to save the world. Bad things happen all the time; it is just the way things are. Then he decided it was his job to save the world because he is so flawed. Dean trying to find a middle ground seemed to me to reach Sam for a reason. If we are going to revisit all this, and as a viewer I would just as soon leave it all in the rear view mirror because I thought season 8 did a poor job with it all, I want the discussion to include all aspects, not just Sams selective memory. If Sam here is supposed to have a skewed perspective because he is hurt and angry, this scene will play for me. If he is supposed to be espousing a mature point of view Dean needs to adopt himself, I am much less happy.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 10:13
Quoting Manzanita Crow:
I think you're right nappi815, but I think there is another problem too. One that has been there ever since the pilot.

That is the disconnect between Dean's expectations of Sam (to keep hunting) and Dean's total unwillingness to accept the likely outcome of Sam hunting (Sam's death). This disconnect always been there, but that scene in the church in 8.23 made it very obvious.

I would not trust a hunting partner who was gung-ho about something as high-risk as The Trials, then bailed at the last minute because they weren't willing to accept the price. The likelihood of Sam dying from the last Trial shouldn't have been a surprise to Dean. Sam was clearly on his last legs.

Sam went through all that pain and illness to close the gates of Hell, just to have Dean talk him out of it at the last minute? I'd be angry too; not because Dean persuaded me to stop the Trials, but because he hadn't considered this possible outcome before Sam continued with The Trials.

(I know Sam initially said he didn't intend it to be a suicide mission, but as things went along it was pretty clear he wasn't going to make it.)

Clearly there are a lot of writing issues here. I think Dean, as he is normally written, is clever enough to have seen the likelihood of Sam dying from The Trials. I think the writers were handing him the proverbial Idiot Ball. But given the canon we have, I can understand why Sam is upset about the situation in the church.

Still, it would have made more sense to focus on the possession trick and ongoing lies. Of course I would want my brother to try and save my life, but not at all costs. Not if it meant being possessed, when I had previously been possessed and forced to kill innocents. And Dean KNEW Sam didn't want that. That's what would make me angry if I was Sam anyway.


Welcome, Manzanita! I think you are right about Sam's anger at being possessed and that it makes most sense to concentrate on that as a story point.

I have a different view on what was going on between the boys in the Trials. I think Dean was well aware the Trials could be fatal. That is why he wanted to be the one to do them. He felt like he was the expendable one. Sam insisted he continue to be the one to do them because he did them with hope and saw a future for them, so for him, the Trials would not be a suicide mission.

So it was a shock for Dean to realize Sam had no problem with the Trials being a suicide mission because he felt he was not worth saving. And that to me was the focus of Deans words to Sam: he is worth saving. His fears of what Dean thinks of him were offbase.

This season has picked up on that thread of Sam feeling he has to balance his books and his death through sacrifice is a way to do it. If we're going to pick up season 8 themes, hopefully we revisit Sams hope for the future speech to Dean where he refused to allow Dean to undertake the Trials and said he would show Dean hope instead. Cas seems to think Sams thinking about the value of his life is skewed right now and Dean certainly did in Sacrifice.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 10:13
Quote:
I think you're right nappi815, but I think there is another problem too. One that has been there ever since the pilot.

That is the disconnect between Dean's expectations of Sam (to keep hunting) and Dean's total unwillingness to accept the likely outcome of Sam hunting (Sam's death). This disconnect always been there, but that scene in the church in 8.23 made it very obvious.

I would not trust a hunting partner who was gung-ho about something as high-risk as The Trials, then bailed at the last minute because they weren't willing to accept the price. The likelihood of Sam dying from the last Trial shouldn't have been a surprise to Dean. Sam was clearly on his last legs.

Sam went through all that pain and illness to close the gates of Hell, just to have Dean talk him out of it at the last minute? I'd be angry too; not because Dean persuaded me to stop the Trials, but because he hadn't considered this possible outcome before Sam continued with The Trials.

(I know Sam initially said he didn't intend it to be a suicide mission, but as things went along it was pretty clear he wasn't going to make it.)

Clearly there are a lot of writing issues here. I think Dean, as he is normally written, is clever enough to have seen the likelihood of Sam dying from The Trials. I think the writers were handing him the proverbial Idiot Ball. But given the canon we have, I can understand why Sam is upset about the situation in the church.

Still, it would have made more sense to focus on the possession trick and ongoing lies. Of course I would want my brother to try and save my life, but not at all costs. Not if it meant being possessed, when I had previously been possessed and forced to kill innocents. And Dean KNEW Sam didn't want that. That's what would make me angry if I was Sam anyway.
Welcome, Manzanita! I think you are right about Sam's anger at being possessed and that it makes most sense to concentrate on that as a story point.

I have a different view on what was going on between the boys in the Trials. I think Dean was well aware the Trials could be fatal. That is why he wanted to be the one to do them. He felt like he was the expendable one. Sam insisted he continue to be the one to do them because he did them with hope and saw a future for them, so for him, the Trials would not be a suicide mission.

So it was a shock for Dean to realize Sam had no problem with the Trials being a suicide mission because he felt he was not worth saving. And that to me was the focus of Deans words to Sam: he is worth saving. His fears of what Dean thinks of him were offbase.

This season has picked up on that thread of Sam feeling he has to balance his books and his death through sacrifice is a way to do it. If we're going to pick up season 8 themes, hopefully we revisit Sams hope for the future speech to Dean where he refused to allow Dean to undertake the Trials and said he would show Dean hope instead. Cas seems to think Sams thinking about the value of his life is skewed right now and Dean certainly did in Sacrifice.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-30 10:42
[quote name="Gerry"]Hi Nappi815! I hear you about Sam being upset at Dean lying to him and that is a key issue in his view. Where we differ is our interpretation of how Sam framed the church issue. At the church, Sam was willing to die because he felt he just let Dean down over and over and that Dean never forgave him and was on the lookout for another brother, like Benny. Deans words to him were reassuring him on that score - that he would never put anyone before Sam. Sam then made his own choice on whether that was enough for him to stand down from the Trials. His argument to Dean in this episode is that talking Sam down from completing the Trials was wrong in and of itself, and that he sees his role in this battle of right and wrong differently than Dean.

i do agree that sam felt he'd always let dean down. as a matter of fact, it's my belief that sam has blamed everything that's gone wrong with dean on himself. i still think that sam belief that he's a failure as a brother truly started when he failed to save dean from going to hell. he never forgave himself for that. if he had saved his brother from hell, if he hadn't failed him then all that followed might never have happened. i could only imagine the guilt sam was truly feeling when dean confessed he broke in hell and later on in family remains when dean told sam he enjoyed torturing those souls. every action sam has taken goes back to that one moment in no rest for the wicked. the moment dean was shredded before sam's eyes and he couldn't stop it. he couldn't stop dean from going to hell. he failed dean in a way he could never atone for no matter how he tried. and i do agree with you that in that church....under the weight of those trials, emotionally broken, sam admitted to dean that he was a failure and all he did was ever let dean down and he couldn't do that again. but the start of that conversation with dean began with sam talking of dean's lack of trust in him, trusting benny and cas over him. watching his brother turn to others instead of turning to him. it's because sam failed dean that he believed dean didn't trust in him. so imho it's not so cut and dried. i believe that trust was an issue along with his idea that he failed dean constantly, for sam, trust and failing coincided. dean couldn't trust sam because sam failed him constantly. in the church, dean's reassurance, imo, had sam believing that dean did trust in him and didn't see him as the failure sam believed himself to be. so when sam learns that dean has been lying to him, he's asking himself, why? doesn't dean trust me? at that church he told him he has never ever put anyone before him ever, and i'm sorry but i understood that myself to mean that dean did in fact trust sam more than anyone, contrary to what sam believed. that not only does dean put sam in front of everyone because he's his brother who he loves more than anything, but because he in fact trusts sam more than anyone else. i believed that was what dean was saying, so therefore i believe that that's what sam believes as well. which is why he brought up the trials.

but we see things differently and that's ok. i do appreciate that you even took the time not only to read my thoughts but to reply to them as well. ;-)

although i respectfully both agree and disagree with you, i do enjoy your reviews. welcome to the wfb writing team.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-30 10:42
Hi Nappi815! I hear you about Sam being upset at Dean lying to him and that is a key issue in his view. Where we differ is our interpretation of how Sam framed the church issue. At the church, Sam was willing to die because he felt he just let Dean down over and over and that Dean never forgave him and was on the lookout for another brother, like Benny. Deans words to him were reassuring him on that score - that he would never put anyone before Sam. Sam then made his own choice on whether that was enough for him to stand down from the Trials. His argument to Dean in this episode is that talking Sam down from completing the Trials was wrong in and of itself, and that he sees his role in this battle of right and wrong differently than Dean.

i do agree that sam felt he'd always let dean down. as a matter of fact, it's my belief that sam has blamed everything that's gone wrong with dean on himself. i still think that sam belief that he's a failure as a brother truly started when he failed to save dean from going to hell. he never forgave himself for that. if he had saved his brother from hell, if he hadn't failed him then all that followed might never have happened. i could only imagine the guilt sam was truly feeling when dean confessed he broke in hell and later on in family remains when dean told sam he enjoyed torturing those souls. every action sam has taken goes back to that one moment in no rest for the wicked. the moment dean was shredded before sam's eyes and he couldn't stop it. he couldn't stop dean from going to hell. he failed dean in a way he could never atone for no matter how he tried. and i do agree with you that in that church....under the weight of those trials, emotionally broken, sam admitted to dean that he was a failure and all he did was ever let dean down and he couldn't do that again. but the start of that conversation with dean began with sam talking of dean's lack of trust in him, trusting benny and cas over him. watching his brother turn to others instead of turning to him. it's because sam failed dean that he believed dean didn't trust in him. so imho it's not so cut and dried. i believe that trust was an issue along with his idea that he failed dean constantly, for sam, trust and failing coincided. dean couldn't trust sam because sam failed him constantly. in the church, dean's reassurance, imo, had sam believing that dean did trust in him and didn't see him as the failure sam believed himself to be. so when sam learns that dean has been lying to him, he's asking himself, why? doesn't dean trust me? at that church he told him he has never ever put anyone before him ever, and i'm sorry but i understood that myself to mean that dean did in fact trust sam more than anyone, contrary to what sam believed. that not only does dean put sam in front of everyone because he's his brother who he loves more than anything, but because he in fact trusts sam more than anyone else. i believed that was what dean was saying, so therefore i believe that that's what sam believes as well. which is why he brought up the trials.

but we see things differently and that's ok. i do appreciate that you even took the time not only to read my thoughts but to reply to them as well. ;-)

although i respectfully both agree and disagree with you, i do enjoy your reviews. welcome to the wfb writing team.
Sandra K
# Sandra K 2014-01-30 11:03
Ok, I have re-watched the last conversation about 12 times and after not quite getting it at first, this is how I have come to understand it... (the parentheses are my translations). I'm sharing to get input-- did I read between the lines correctly?
Note: I have to post this in parts because it's long.

Dean: Listen, (Sam, don’t go yet. I have to say something) that night that, uh...(That I had to watch a demon torture you to get Gadreel out, that I had to let a demon possess you to tell you what I’d done, the night that...) you know, we went our separate ways –

Sam: You mean the night you split?
(Really, you want to sugarcoat it? That’s what you want to call it? You left. Made a mess and left. Left me alone because you can’t handle the consequences of your choices, not because death follows you. You’re not poison Dean, but your decisions are. It’s not ok for you to just walk off.)
Dean: Fair enough. (I’m not going to argue, I’m tired of all the fighting. Split, went our separate ways, whatever. The point is….) I was messed up, man.(Look maybe I didn’t mean everything I said.) Kevin was dead, (Kevin is dead because of me. I failed him. He trusted me and he got screwed. Kevin is dead) and I…I don't know what I was.
Sam: Okay. (I got that.)
Dean: Hell, maybe I still don't. (Man, I’m still so messed up over Kevin. The more I think about it the worse it gets but there is no changing that.) But uh, I know I took a piece of you in the process and for that… (Sam, I’m really sorry.)
Somebody changed the playbook, man, you know?(How did it get this crazy ?How was I supposed to know that an angel would be such a bad thing? I thought things made sense. You killed monsters and saved people. Now we let monsters go and we can’t save people. I wanted to save you.) It’s like what’s right is wrong (I thought saving you was right but look how that turned out. I took a gamble with an angel and lost.) and what’s wrong is more wrong...(Even if saving you was wrong, it shouldn’t haven ended bloody for Kevin. I’m used to being the only one who suffer consequences for my mistakes, my actions) I just know that when...(When what? How do I say this) when we rode together…(I didn’t have to keep it all in, someone made my upside down world make sense, you’re like a compass when I can’t see straight.)
Sam: We split the crappiness. (I get it Dean. I see that you’re more messed up than even you realize. That said, No one wants to hunt alone. It sucks. Might as well do it with someone)
Dean: Yeah... (Yeah, Sammy. couldn’t have put it better) so... (Where does this leave us?)
Sam: Okay. (I’ll come back and hunt with you.)
Dean: Okay. (Awesome. Thanks, Sam)
Sam: But something’s broken here, Dean... (but don’t go thinking that just because I’m climbing back in your ride everything is fine. I am still pissed at you for what you did. You have to face up to what you did. )
Dean: I am not saying it's not. ( No, I know it’s not ok. I’m not ok so how could you be? Kevin’s not ok. It’s never going to be ok. I know I was wrong and I missed up. I broke this, Sam and …) I'm thinking we need to put a couple of "W"s on the board and we get past all this. (We can forget about it and move on. I mean it worked for me after you chose Ruby over your brother, got addicted to demon blood and let Lucifer out of the cage. Hunting is what makes us ok, makes us better.)
Sam: I don't think so. (Not so fast. It doesn’t work like that. Killing a few monsters and saving a few people will not make this better.) No, I wish but (Work isn’t going to cut it. If it were only that simple, but I see a bigger problem here)… we don’t see things the same way anymore, (I thought we finally were on the same page, you made me think back in the church that we were finally on the same page about…) our roles in this whole thing. (I don’t know what else to call this hunting stuff anymore.) Back in that church, talking me out of boarding up Hell? (Something that big, something that important you talked me into stopping. All of these lives that have been lost, the demons roaming around wrecking death and destruction would have been avoided. All because we’re family? Because you never put anything in front of me?)
Or tricking me into letting Gadreel possess me? (What is worse that you wouldn’t straight with me about what was happening. I would have at least have liked the choice. Instead you trick me into letting this crazy angel in me, who killed Kevin! And you tricked me into that. I have to live with this because you wouldn’t let things go. How was that compatible with anything what you said to me in the church?)
End part I
Sandra K
# Sandra K 2014-01-30 11:03
Ok, I have re-watched the last conversation about 12 times and after not quite getting it at first, this is how I have come to understand it... (the parentheses are my translations). I'm sharing to get input-- did I read between the lines correctly?
Note: I have to post this in parts because it's long.

Dean: Listen, (Sam, don’t go yet. I have to say something) that night that, uh...(That I had to watch a demon torture you to get Gadreel out, that I had to let a demon possess you to tell you what I’d done, the night that...) you know, we went our separate ways –

Sam: You mean the night you split?
(Really, you want to sugarcoat it? That’s what you want to call it? You left. Made a mess and left. Left me alone because you can’t handle the consequences of your choices, not because death follows you. You’re not poison Dean, but your decisions are. It’s not ok for you to just walk off.)
Dean: Fair enough. (I’m not going to argue, I’m tired of all the fighting. Split, went our separate ways, whatever. The point is….) I was messed up, man.(Look maybe I didn’t mean everything I said.) Kevin was dead, (Kevin is dead because of me. I failed him. He trusted me and he got screwed. Kevin is dead) and I…I don't know what I was.
Sam: Okay. (I got that.)
Dean: Hell, maybe I still don't. (Man, I’m still so messed up over Kevin. The more I think about it the worse it gets but there is no changing that.) But uh, I know I took a piece of you in the process and for that… (Sam, I’m really sorry.)
Somebody changed the playbook, man, you know?(How did it get this crazy ?How was I supposed to know that an angel would be such a bad thing? I thought things made sense. You killed monsters and saved people. Now we let monsters go and we can’t save people. I wanted to save you.) It’s like what’s right is wrong (I thought saving you was right but look how that turned out. I took a gamble with an angel and lost.) and what’s wrong is more wrong...(Even if saving you was wrong, it shouldn’t haven ended bloody for Kevin. I’m used to being the only one who suffer consequences for my mistakes, my actions) I just know that when...(When what? How do I say this) when we rode together…(I didn’t have to keep it all in, someone made my upside down world make sense, you’re like a compass when I can’t see straight.)
Sam: We split the crappiness. (I get it Dean. I see that you’re more messed up than even you realize. That said, No one wants to hunt alone. It sucks. Might as well do it with someone)
Dean: Yeah... (Yeah, Sammy. couldn’t have put it better) so... (Where does this leave us?)
Sam: Okay. (I’ll come back and hunt with you.)
Dean: Okay. (Awesome. Thanks, Sam)
Sam: But something’s broken here, Dean... (but don’t go thinking that just because I’m climbing back in your ride everything is fine. I am still pissed at you for what you did. You have to face up to what you did. )
Dean: I am not saying it's not. ( No, I know it’s not ok. I’m not ok so how could you be? Kevin’s not ok. It’s never going to be ok. I know I was wrong and I missed up. I broke this, Sam and …) I'm thinking we need to put a couple of "W"s on the board and we get past all this. (We can forget about it and move on. I mean it worked for me after you chose Ruby over your brother, got addicted to demon blood and let Lucifer out of the cage. Hunting is what makes us ok, makes us better.)
Sam: I don't think so. (Not so fast. It doesn’t work like that. Killing a few monsters and saving a few people will not make this better.) No, I wish but (Work isn’t going to cut it. If it were only that simple, but I see a bigger problem here)… we don’t see things the same way anymore, (I thought we finally were on the same page, you made me think back in the church that we were finally on the same page about…) our roles in this whole thing. (I don’t know what else to call this hunting stuff anymore.) Back in that church, talking me out of boarding up Hell? (Something that big, something that important you talked me into stopping. All of these lives that have been lost, the demons roaming around wrecking death and destruction would have been avoided. All because we’re family? Because you never put anything in front of me?)
Or tricking me into letting Gadreel possess me? (What is worse that you wouldn’t straight with me about what was happening. I would have at least have liked the choice. Instead you trick me into letting this crazy angel in me, who killed Kevin! And you tricked me into that. I have to live with this because you wouldn’t let things go. How was that compatible with anything what you said to me in the church?)
End part I
Sandra K
# Sandra K 2014-01-30 11:07
Part I
SAM: I can’t trust you. (You thought I couldn’t handle something, again. So you took over. I stopped the trials because you didn’t want me to die and then when I was dying, you made a choice because it wasn’t turning out the way you wanted. I thought I could trust you in that church. But all this talk of trust, and your promise that we wouldn’t lie to each other… man, I thought that you had turned a corner in the way you saw me and that you trusted me?).)
*Dean looks away* (The one thing I’ve always tried to do, be there for Sammy, the one thing I always thought could be said about me was that he could trust me. I saved his life and because of that, now he can’t trust me. It’s ironic and god, it’s so painfully true.)
SAM: Not the way I thought I could. (I trusted you in that church. I trusted you when you said you had a plan. I threw myself at your mercy and you wouldn’t have the decency to let me choose. You deceived me. You knew I was ready to die, I had prepared myself. It was my life. Not yours. I’m not the little brother to save.
SAM: Not the way I should be able to. (I shouldn’t have to worry about whether or not you’re about to do something or make a decision that satisfies your need for something. You don’t get to do something like that to save me because “it’s not in you”.

Dean: Okay, look.(Yes, yes you’re right. I messed up big time. I did what I did -for whatever reason that I did them, but you’re right. They were wrong.) DEAN: Whatever happened, (But no matter what has happened in the past--- haven’t we gotten past our mistakes? We can move on from this right?)
DEAN: we are family. OK? (I know you think you can’t trust me but I’m your brother. I’ was only trying to do what I thought was best. Family forgives and moves on, family means trusting again and again and whatever mistake your family makes, it’s never meant to be hurtful. I was trying to save you. It went south, almost killed you and took Kevin. I’m sorry for that- I can't say I'm sorry you are a live.)

Sam: You say that like it’s some sort of cure-all, (Family isn’t just that easy. It’s work. You can’t say that after you mess up on something like this. You can’t use ‘Family” like a magic word. It doesn’t mean, you do whatever it takes, screw the universe, screw what your brother wants and do what you think is best)
SAM: Like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we’re family. (I know it hurts to hear this, but family also means being honest. After nine years of this, you should realize that everything from selling your soul for me, to me trying to get revenge on Lillith for taking you to hell, to this - everything, has been because you would do anything to save me, rather than let me die. In you or not, you don’t get to play God like that.)

Dean: So what -- we're not family now? (Dude, please don’t be saying what I think you are saying. I can’t handle that right now.)
Sam: I'm saying, you want to work, let’s work.(No, I’m not saying that this can’t be fixed, or mended. We can hunt together. That’s not the problem. We work better together anyway.)
SAM: If you want to be brothers (What I’m saying is that you have a lot of work to do and you have to change something before we can even pretend to be brothers. For starters, stop making decisions for me)
SAM:... those are my terms. (If you can accept that I’m still pissed for what you did, and won’t expect everything to be as it was, and realized that you have to change, then we can start moving forward.)

Sam and Dean climb into the Impala.
Terms accepted.

END
Sandra K
# Sandra K 2014-01-30 11:07
Part I
SAM: I can’t trust you. (You thought I couldn’t handle something, again. So you took over. I stopped the trials because you didn’t want me to die and then when I was dying, you made a choice because it wasn’t turning out the way you wanted. I thought I could trust you in that church. But all this talk of trust, and your promise that we wouldn’t lie to each other… man, I thought that you had turned a corner in the way you saw me and that you trusted me?).)
*Dean looks away* (The one thing I’ve always tried to do, be there for Sammy, the one thing I always thought could be said about me was that he could trust me. I saved his life and because of that, now he can’t trust me. It’s ironic and god, it’s so painfully true.)
SAM: Not the way I thought I could. (I trusted you in that church. I trusted you when you said you had a plan. I threw myself at your mercy and you wouldn’t have the decency to let me choose. You deceived me. You knew I was ready to die, I had prepared myself. It was my life. Not yours. I’m not the little brother to save.
SAM: Not the way I should be able to. (I shouldn’t have to worry about whether or not you’re about to do something or make a decision that satisfies your need for something. You don’t get to do something like that to save me because “it’s not in you”.

Dean: Okay, look.(Yes, yes you’re right. I messed up big time. I did what I did -for whatever reason that I did them, but you’re right. They were wrong.) DEAN: Whatever happened, (But no matter what has happened in the past--- haven’t we gotten past our mistakes? We can move on from this right?)
DEAN: we are family. OK? (I know you think you can’t trust me but I’m your brother. I’ was only trying to do what I thought was best. Family forgives and moves on, family means trusting again and again and whatever mistake your family makes, it’s never meant to be hurtful. I was trying to save you. It went south, almost killed you and took Kevin. I’m sorry for that- I can't say I'm sorry you are a live.)

Sam: You say that like it’s some sort of cure-all, (Family isn’t just that easy. It’s work. You can’t say that after you mess up on something like this. You can’t use ‘Family” like a magic word. It doesn’t mean, you do whatever it takes, screw the universe, screw what your brother wants and do what you think is best)
SAM: Like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we’re family. (I know it hurts to hear this, but family also means being honest. After nine years of this, you should realize that everything from selling your soul for me, to me trying to get revenge on Lillith for taking you to hell, to this - everything, has been because you would do anything to save me, rather than let me die. In you or not, you don’t get to play God like that.)

Dean: So what -- we're not family now? (Dude, please don’t be saying what I think you are saying. I can’t handle that right now.)
Sam: I'm saying, you want to work, let’s work.(No, I’m not saying that this can’t be fixed, or mended. We can hunt together. That’s not the problem. We work better together anyway.)
SAM: If you want to be brothers (What I’m saying is that you have a lot of work to do and you have to change something before we can even pretend to be brothers. For starters, stop making decisions for me)
SAM:... those are my terms. (If you can accept that I’m still pissed for what you did, and won’t expect everything to be as it was, and realized that you have to change, then we can start moving forward.)

Sam and Dean climb into the Impala.
Terms accepted.

END
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-01-30 11:18
A really wonderful review with a view point I share very strongly. Thanks so much.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-01-30 11:18
A really wonderful review with a view point I share very strongly. Thanks so much.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-30 11:37
I don't agree with some things you have written Gerry but I loved reading your review.You have articulated your views beautifullyQuote:
When he hears about the Mark of Cain, which is a big enough deal he should be both gobsmacked and worried about the implications,
he was curious and asked Dean what that meant.At that moment that much reaction was not bad IMO.Quote:
So it’s no surprise Dean’s attempt to reach out to his brother has very mixed results. Dean tries his best to let Sam know how sorry he is, saying he knows he took a piece of Sam when he let Gadreel in. But he can’t quite say he’s sorry he saved Sam’s life. Both last week and this week, characters have talked about the value of life, and Dean still believes in the value of Sam’s, even if his own need for Sam was also a factor. Sam can hear what’s missing in Dean’s words. He hasn’t heard what he wants to hear, which is that he has the right to decide his part in their story. From the moment Dean tried to again do what he thought was best for Sam by fobbing him off the case, Sam’s frustration and anger mounted. Dean’s opening gives him the opportunity to let loose his feelings.
I agree.Quote:
“Back in that church, talking me out of boarding up hell or tricking me into letting Gadreel possess me? I can’t trust you, not the way I thought I could, not the way I should be able to.”
In the first case it lead to Sam dying anyways and in the second him being possessed.Trusting Dean has lead him here where his hands burnt out Kevin's eyes literally.This is one more possession but it was not because of YED or Meg it was his own brother.
I understand Sam because when people generally loose trust they question the action of the people they have lost trust on.Now it is simply impossible to trust Dean as the person who he trusted to understand him does not and he doubts whether he did at the church.Quote:
he reminded Dean that with all the capacity for hurt it has,
But it did not make a difference.Quote:
I only hope the parallels with seasons four and five include Bobby’s view of family. I hope Sam’s view of “Sacrifice” is coloured by his anger and hurt and he was striking out rather giving his real opinion on Dean’s words to him. I hope he got in the car because he doesn’t really want to lose Dean, even if he can’t quite admit it. And I hope we get some resolution on whether he really resents that he’s been unable to sacrifice himself to balance his books.
It is coloured as it should be otherwise sam would be robot.Time will heal the wounds .It is just not time yet.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-30 11:37
I don't agree with some things you have written Gerry but I loved reading your review.You have articulated your views beautifullyQuote:
When he hears about the Mark of Cain, which is a big enough deal he should be both gobsmacked and worried about the implications,
he was curious and asked Dean what that meant.At that moment that much reaction was not bad IMO.Quote:
So it’s no surprise Dean’s attempt to reach out to his brother has very mixed results. Dean tries his best to let Sam know how sorry he is, saying he knows he took a piece of Sam when he let Gadreel in. But he can’t quite say he’s sorry he saved Sam’s life. Both last week and this week, characters have talked about the value of life, and Dean still believes in the value of Sam’s, even if his own need for Sam was also a factor. Sam can hear what’s missing in Dean’s words. He hasn’t heard what he wants to hear, which is that he has the right to decide his part in their story. From the moment Dean tried to again do what he thought was best for Sam by fobbing him off the case, Sam’s frustration and anger mounted. Dean’s opening gives him the opportunity to let loose his feelings.
I agree.Quote:
“Back in that church, talking me out of boarding up hell or tricking me into letting Gadreel possess me? I can’t trust you, not the way I thought I could, not the way I should be able to.”
In the first case it lead to Sam dying anyways and in the second him being possessed.Trusting Dean has lead him here where his hands burnt out Kevin's eyes literally.This is one more possession but it was not because of YED or Meg it was his own brother.
I understand Sam because when people generally loose trust they question the action of the people they have lost trust on.Now it is simply impossible to trust Dean as the person who he trusted to understand him does not and he doubts whether he did at the church.Quote:
he reminded Dean that with all the capacity for hurt it has,
But it did not make a difference.Quote:
I only hope the parallels with seasons four and five include Bobby’s view of family. I hope Sam’s view of “Sacrifice” is coloured by his anger and hurt and he was striking out rather giving his real opinion on Dean’s words to him. I hope he got in the car because he doesn’t really want to lose Dean, even if he can’t quite admit it. And I hope we get some resolution on whether he really resents that he’s been unable to sacrifice himself to balance his books.
It is coloured as it should be otherwise sam would be robot.Time will heal the wounds .It is just not time yet.
Ginger
# Ginger 2014-01-30 11:46
I always enjoy your reviews, Gerry, and this was another great one. I had major problems with this episode. It left me totally confused. and your review touched on this confusion, if I am interpreting it right.

To me, the episode went beyond the often heard plotting complaints right down to damaging the basic structure of the story being told. Each season , there needs to be some dramatic problem that the story will unfold around. That story will be either character driven or plot driven, and both of those things need to be decided before any of the story is written. If it is not, the story does not hold together through the season. Every single episode should have some little bit of that story in it, because that is the glue that holds the entire season together If these two factors are not considered (by every writer, I might add), the story becomes confused and characterizatio n suffers. That is what I felt happened with this episode.

I don’t really know what Sam’s issue is now or why he is mad at Dean (or maybe he is mad at himself).

I don’t know what Dean’s goal is this season. Is it to put his family back together? Is his goal still Abaddon, or is it Gadreel with Sam now?

What story is being told this season? Is the angel/demon war the A-plot or the B-plot. Is it the power of love and prayer that will put Sam and Dean back together as a family fighting evil?

Is the dramatic story being character driven or plot driven. At the beginning of the season, I was pleased to see that what I thought was the mytharc was being character driven by Dean’s decisions. This episode, however, showed Garth’s plot as driving Dean’s “now” decisions, and I don’t know what is driving Sam’s decisions since I now don’t know what his issues are.

As for characterizatio n, I do not for a minute believe that Dean Winchester watches Teen Mom or that Sam’s first thought would be of a TV wrestler. I can’t envision Sam or Dean watching wrestling shows. The image that comes to my mind is of Dean punching a TV because of the obvious fake moves being shown….well, he might just turn off the TV and grab a beer…and Sam would just roll his eyes before turning away.

Is the Mark of Cain now no longer in play? I just do not buy that Sam would shrug his shoulders at learning that a biblical character was still walking the earth and that the mark of either God or Lucifer was put on his brother and…nothing. I do not believe that Dean would shrug his shoulders and make a flippant abortion or pregnancy remark about angel grace in his brother, given his knowledge of angel grace, so that there was time enough to insert some perfunctory new mythology in the show.

In a feeble attempt to keep this positive, I thought the dinner scene was exceptionally well done, I loved Sam catching Dean’s brush-off, and I loved the knife throw kill, but if this comment remains too negative under the new rules, please feel free to delete it, Alice. I just find these issues too important to the season to be glossed over though.
Ginger
# Ginger 2014-01-30 11:46
I always enjoy your reviews, Gerry, and this was another great one. I had major problems with this episode. It left me totally confused. and your review touched on this confusion, if I am interpreting it right.

To me, the episode went beyond the often heard plotting complaints right down to damaging the basic structure of the story being told. Each season , there needs to be some dramatic problem that the story will unfold around. That story will be either character driven or plot driven, and both of those things need to be decided before any of the story is written. If it is not, the story does not hold together through the season. Every single episode should have some little bit of that story in it, because that is the glue that holds the entire season together If these two factors are not considered (by every writer, I might add), the story becomes confused and characterizatio n suffers. That is what I felt happened with this episode.

I don’t really know what Sam’s issue is now or why he is mad at Dean (or maybe he is mad at himself).

I don’t know what Dean’s goal is this season. Is it to put his family back together? Is his goal still Abaddon, or is it Gadreel with Sam now?

What story is being told this season? Is the angel/demon war the A-plot or the B-plot. Is it the power of love and prayer that will put Sam and Dean back together as a family fighting evil?

Is the dramatic story being character driven or plot driven. At the beginning of the season, I was pleased to see that what I thought was the mytharc was being character driven by Dean’s decisions. This episode, however, showed Garth’s plot as driving Dean’s “now” decisions, and I don’t know what is driving Sam’s decisions since I now don’t know what his issues are.

As for characterizatio n, I do not for a minute believe that Dean Winchester watches Teen Mom or that Sam’s first thought would be of a TV wrestler. I can’t envision Sam or Dean watching wrestling shows. The image that comes to my mind is of Dean punching a TV because of the obvious fake moves being shown….well, he might just turn off the TV and grab a beer…and Sam would just roll his eyes before turning away.

Is the Mark of Cain now no longer in play? I just do not buy that Sam would shrug his shoulders at learning that a biblical character was still walking the earth and that the mark of either God or Lucifer was put on his brother and…nothing. I do not believe that Dean would shrug his shoulders and make a flippant abortion or pregnancy remark about angel grace in his brother, given his knowledge of angel grace, so that there was time enough to insert some perfunctory new mythology in the show.

In a feeble attempt to keep this positive, I thought the dinner scene was exceptionally well done, I loved Sam catching Dean’s brush-off, and I loved the knife throw kill, but if this comment remains too negative under the new rules, please feel free to delete it, Alice. I just find these issues too important to the season to be glossed over though.
amyh
# amyh 2014-01-30 12:05
Finding the conversation fascinating reading. So many POV's...i wonder if any of the fans are alined with the writers...or dio they see something completely different?

Can anyone ask them at a con seeing as they are starting to attend them now?
amyh
# amyh 2014-01-30 12:05
Finding the conversation fascinating reading. So many POV's...i wonder if any of the fans are alined with the writers...or dio they see something completely different?

Can anyone ask them at a con seeing as they are starting to attend them now?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-01-30 12:14
Sandra K that was awesome. There should be subtitles interpreting Sam and Dean conversations. Men! :-)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-01-30 12:14
Sandra K that was awesome. There should be subtitles interpreting Sam and Dean conversations. Men! :-)
ThisOldBag
# ThisOldBag 2014-01-30 12:17
Wonderful Sandra K (#13 & 14). This is quite similar to how interpret the cryptic conversation. Now, let's see if that ends up being the intent from tptb.
ThisOldBag
# ThisOldBag 2014-01-30 12:17
Wonderful Sandra K (#13 & 14). This is quite similar to how interpret the cryptic conversation. Now, let's see if that ends up being the intent from tptb.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 12:48
So many great comments! Thanks so much, everyone, for adding to the discussion. I'll address some of the comments that spark thoughts in me, but I want to make it clear I welcome all the points of view expressed. We aren't all going to see this the same way, because we all bring different experiences to the story.

anonymousN, we agree on a lot of points! But to me, the Mark of Cain is a huge addition to the lore and even Sam and Dean would not be blase about meeting the First Man (Father of Murder) or receiving a mark of biblical power which allows for the killing of immortal knights. Especially given their own family connection to the story of Cain and Abel. It's a really big deal. But as I said, I think Sam is more focused on how hurt and angry he is that Dean left instead of facing him.

I also think Bobby's words to Dean about family being family no matter what and he needed to go after Sam and help him, may not have stopped Lucifer rising, but they did lead to putting Lucifer back in the cage. I think Sam now has a skewed interpretation of Dean supporting his sacrifice in Swan Song. He seems to now think that sacrifice is all he's good for, if he's in the fight at all.

SandraK, I loved your interpretation of the boys' thoughts, and I agree with much of it. But at the same time, I think it shows a very skewed perception of the boys' past by Sam, and I hope very much this line of thinking gets challenged and the healing takes place on different grounds which allows for Dean's perspective as well as Sam's.

For example, I believe right now Sam does think this:

"Back in that church, talking me out of boarding up Hell? (Something that big, something that important you talked me into stopping. All of these lives that have been lost, the demons roaming around wrecking death and destruction would have been avoided. All because we’re family? Because you never put anything in front of me?) "

But I don't think that's a fair assessment of what happened in "Sacrifice." Sam was all over the place in season eight on how he saw his role, making it really difficult for Dean to get a handle on how Sam was feeling .
Sam started the season by saying he felt no responsibility for saving the world. He'd done his bit, the way of the universe is bad things happen, and he can walk away and let other people take their turn at being heroes. He not only could walk away from anonymous people, he could walk away from Kevin. Dean's not the first Winchester to fail Kevin in an hour of need.

Sam inched his way back into being a hunter, telling Dean he did feel badly about walking away from Kevin and he did think getting revenge for the Winchesters' losses was important, so he would help shut the gates of hell, then he was gone to live that apple pie life.

Another layer of the onion was peeled back on Sam when he decided he would keep on doing the Trials rather than Dean, because at this point, he did feel a sense of responsibility to the being a part of the bigger picture - a cosmic player, just as Cas has just decided--but he didn't think that should cost either his or Dean's life. He saw Dean's acceptance of his own death as a loss of hope which would turn the Trials into a suicide mission. And he vowed to teach his brother about hope.

That line of thought got no further development, and instead we got another layer of the onion peeled away in "Sacrifice," when we learned Sam really didn't have hope. Instead, he felt tainted and flawed, living with the fear he could never be forgiven for his past and the Trials were his hope of being purified.

Dean heard with horror that his brother didn't feel his life was worth saving, and he worried Dean didn't feel he was a worthy brother.

That line of thought was shown throughout the season, as Sam both pushes Dean away and at the same time insists Dean put him before Benny.

This episode's ultimatum isn't the first one Sam has given Dean. Last season, he put the terms of the boys working together as Dean severing his friendship with Benny. Sam's attitude to Benny was a complete contradiction to his usual attitude on monsters, including the one he showed in this episode.

And he hasn't yet showed he has any appreciation of the magnitude of what he demanded from Dean, that letting down a friend goes against Dean's core. But to keep Sam in his life, Dean did so. To make matters worse, he then had to ask Benny to be there for him with a huge sacrifice. Dean was ashamed when he called on Benny--but determined, because he had to save Sam. And Sam accepted all that from Dean.

I thought the conversation in "Sacrifice" was only a beginning, because Sam didn't have to process what he'd asked from Dean and Dean had given, nor did he have to examine the way he slid between thinking he had no responsibilitie s to stopping bad things to thinking his death was necessary to atone for his mistakes. Dean's reframing of Sam's role as allowing for a middle choice seemed to me to still be relevant as a positive thing.

Especially since Sam is viewing stopping the trials as meaning he is now responsible for all the bad things that happened. But in fact, shutting up hell would not have stopped Metatron from wanting Kevin dead, or using Cas to make all the angels fall. It wouldn't have stopped the angels from organizing into factions for a war that will destory much of the earth.

All that would have happened is Dean would be left to try and fight this fight by himself, without the power and strength the brothers offer each other.

I always thought it was odd neither Sam nor Dean wondered if they should shut the gates of hell, even if they could. Because in this show, the angels are no better than the demons and heaven is as dangerous as hell. Should the Winchesters unbalance the system God set up? Do they know the ramidfications of giving angels completely free reign? It seems to me Death taught Dean that just because something feels right in the short term, it's not necessarily right in the big picture.

In my read, Sam has a lot of processing to do on what he really feels about his role. He bounces between thinking if he can just take on another identity, he doesn't need to be a cosmic player to thinking he is a cosmic player and his role is to sacrifice himself, as if getting out of the Cage is something he has to atone for because he deserved to be in there.

None of this means Dean doesn't also have to think about how he applies Bobby's lesson. He had to accept Sam sacrificing himself in Swan Song and he had to risk putting Sam's soul back in to honour Sam's sacrifice. He does have to know where to draw the line on saving Sam. But he not wrong to think Sam's not really thinking clearly yet on that subject. And how can he step back and allow Sam to die in those circumstances?
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 12:48
So many great comments! Thanks so much, everyone, for adding to the discussion. I'll address some of the comments that spark thoughts in me, but I want to make it clear I welcome all the points of view expressed. We aren't all going to see this the same way, because we all bring different experiences to the story.

anonymousN, we agree on a lot of points! But to me, the Mark of Cain is a huge addition to the lore and even Sam and Dean would not be blase about meeting the First Man (Father of Murder) or receiving a mark of biblical power which allows for the killing of immortal knights. Especially given their own family connection to the story of Cain and Abel. It's a really big deal. But as I said, I think Sam is more focused on how hurt and angry he is that Dean left instead of facing him.

I also think Bobby's words to Dean about family being family no matter what and he needed to go after Sam and help him, may not have stopped Lucifer rising, but they did lead to putting Lucifer back in the cage. I think Sam now has a skewed interpretation of Dean supporting his sacrifice in Swan Song. He seems to now think that sacrifice is all he's good for, if he's in the fight at all.

SandraK, I loved your interpretation of the boys' thoughts, and I agree with much of it. But at the same time, I think it shows a very skewed perception of the boys' past by Sam, and I hope very much this line of thinking gets challenged and the healing takes place on different grounds which allows for Dean's perspective as well as Sam's.

For example, I believe right now Sam does think this:

"Back in that church, talking me out of boarding up Hell? (Something that big, something that important you talked me into stopping. All of these lives that have been lost, the demons roaming around wrecking death and destruction would have been avoided. All because we’re family? Because you never put anything in front of me?) "

But I don't think that's a fair assessment of what happened in "Sacrifice." Sam was all over the place in season eight on how he saw his role, making it really difficult for Dean to get a handle on how Sam was feeling .
Sam started the season by saying he felt no responsibility for saving the world. He'd done his bit, the way of the universe is bad things happen, and he can walk away and let other people take their turn at being heroes. He not only could walk away from anonymous people, he could walk away from Kevin. Dean's not the first Winchester to fail Kevin in an hour of need.

Sam inched his way back into being a hunter, telling Dean he did feel badly about walking away from Kevin and he did think getting revenge for the Winchesters' losses was important, so he would help shut the gates of hell, then he was gone to live that apple pie life.

Another layer of the onion was peeled back on Sam when he decided he would keep on doing the Trials rather than Dean, because at this point, he did feel a sense of responsibility to the being a part of the bigger picture - a cosmic player, just as Cas has just decided--but he didn't think that should cost either his or Dean's life. He saw Dean's acceptance of his own death as a loss of hope which would turn the Trials into a suicide mission. And he vowed to teach his brother about hope.

That line of thought got no further development, and instead we got another layer of the onion peeled away in "Sacrifice," when we learned Sam really didn't have hope. Instead, he felt tainted and flawed, living with the fear he could never be forgiven for his past and the Trials were his hope of being purified.

Dean heard with horror that his brother didn't feel his life was worth saving, and he worried Dean didn't feel he was a worthy brother.

That line of thought was shown throughout the season, as Sam both pushes Dean away and at the same time insists Dean put him before Benny.

This episode's ultimatum isn't the first one Sam has given Dean. Last season, he put the terms of the boys working together as Dean severing his friendship with Benny. Sam's attitude to Benny was a complete contradiction to his usual attitude on monsters, including the one he showed in this episode.

And he hasn't yet showed he has any appreciation of the magnitude of what he demanded from Dean, that letting down a friend goes against Dean's core. But to keep Sam in his life, Dean did so. To make matters worse, he then had to ask Benny to be there for him with a huge sacrifice. Dean was ashamed when he called on Benny--but determined, because he had to save Sam. And Sam accepted all that from Dean.

I thought the conversation in "Sacrifice" was only a beginning, because Sam didn't have to process what he'd asked from Dean and Dean had given, nor did he have to examine the way he slid between thinking he had no responsibilitie s to stopping bad things to thinking his death was necessary to atone for his mistakes. Dean's reframing of Sam's role as allowing for a middle choice seemed to me to still be relevant as a positive thing.

Especially since Sam is viewing stopping the trials as meaning he is now responsible for all the bad things that happened. But in fact, shutting up hell would not have stopped Metatron from wanting Kevin dead, or using Cas to make all the angels fall. It wouldn't have stopped the angels from organizing into factions for a war that will destory much of the earth.

All that would have happened is Dean would be left to try and fight this fight by himself, without the power and strength the brothers offer each other.

I always thought it was odd neither Sam nor Dean wondered if they should shut the gates of hell, even if they could. Because in this show, the angels are no better than the demons and heaven is as dangerous as hell. Should the Winchesters unbalance the system God set up? Do they know the ramidfications of giving angels completely free reign? It seems to me Death taught Dean that just because something feels right in the short term, it's not necessarily right in the big picture.

In my read, Sam has a lot of processing to do on what he really feels about his role. He bounces between thinking if he can just take on another identity, he doesn't need to be a cosmic player to thinking he is a cosmic player and his role is to sacrifice himself, as if getting out of the Cage is something he has to atone for because he deserved to be in there.

None of this means Dean doesn't also have to think about how he applies Bobby's lesson. He had to accept Sam sacrificing himself in Swan Song and he had to risk putting Sam's soul back in to honour Sam's sacrifice. He does have to know where to draw the line on saving Sam. But he not wrong to think Sam's not really thinking clearly yet on that subject. And how can he step back and allow Sam to die in those circumstances?
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-01-30 13:34
Hi Sharon K,

That was brilliant! If only they had the time in the show for the brothers to actually talk. But then I do love the ass-kicking too.

I think maybe they should do little snippets that you can go see on the CW website if you're interested. It could just be things that got edited out, so it wouldn't need to cost anything.

Hi Gerry,

I totally accept that Sam is a complex and confusing creature - there is a reason Dean calls him a girl so often :D Although if Sam was a real girl he'd probably force Dean to talk to him.

OK, I realise this is my interpretation of Sam since they give us so little to go on, but I don't think Sam thinks it's his job to save the world. He doesn't really want to hunt at all. However, I think he IS realistic about the consequences of hunting, unlike Dean. If he's going to do this job he's going to do it right, with open eyes about the possibility of dying.

I totally agree he should have talked to Dean about the fact he no longer expected to survive this, despite his earlier optimism. But then Dean should have told Sam he loves and trusts him before 8.23. Men are SO frustrating! :P

But I'm sorry, if Dean knew it could be fatal from the start then he must have been aware that it could still be fatal to Sam regardless of Sam's initial optimism. "The best laid plans" and so forth. Then in 8.23 Dean acts like it's a total shock that Sam might die! Fair enough if he didn't realise Sam was suicidal, but he knew full well The Trials might be fatal to whoever was doing them.

Now, this is partly a writing issue for me. I do think Dean is clever and WOULD have known prior to the S8 finale.

But at the same time I don't think anyone could claim Dean is totally logical (he's "nine kinds o' crazy" and that makes him a great character). And one of his idiosyncrasies since Season 1 is this odd insistence that Sam can't be allowed to die and yet Sam must keep hunting, which is likely to result in death. It simply does not compute :)
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-01-30 13:34
Hi Sharon K,

That was brilliant! If only they had the time in the show for the brothers to actually talk. But then I do love the ass-kicking too.

I think maybe they should do little snippets that you can go see on the CW website if you're interested. It could just be things that got edited out, so it wouldn't need to cost anything.

Hi Gerry,

I totally accept that Sam is a complex and confusing creature - there is a reason Dean calls him a girl so often :D Although if Sam was a real girl he'd probably force Dean to talk to him.

OK, I realise this is my interpretation of Sam since they give us so little to go on, but I don't think Sam thinks it's his job to save the world. He doesn't really want to hunt at all. However, I think he IS realistic about the consequences of hunting, unlike Dean. If he's going to do this job he's going to do it right, with open eyes about the possibility of dying.

I totally agree he should have talked to Dean about the fact he no longer expected to survive this, despite his earlier optimism. But then Dean should have told Sam he loves and trusts him before 8.23. Men are SO frustrating! :P

But I'm sorry, if Dean knew it could be fatal from the start then he must have been aware that it could still be fatal to Sam regardless of Sam's initial optimism. "The best laid plans" and so forth. Then in 8.23 Dean acts like it's a total shock that Sam might die! Fair enough if he didn't realise Sam was suicidal, but he knew full well The Trials might be fatal to whoever was doing them.

Now, this is partly a writing issue for me. I do think Dean is clever and WOULD have known prior to the S8 finale.

But at the same time I don't think anyone could claim Dean is totally logical (he's "nine kinds o' crazy" and that makes him a great character). And one of his idiosyncrasies since Season 1 is this odd insistence that Sam can't be allowed to die and yet Sam must keep hunting, which is likely to result in death. It simply does not compute :)
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 13:54
Hi Manzanita! Yes, these boys are frustrating in their lack of communication.

Dean's position to me doesn't seem contradictory. He knows very well they live a life unlikely to lead to old age. But he intends to protect Sam to the best of his ability until he dies.What he can't get comfortable with is the idea of surviving Sam. Given that he stood in for a parent to Sam during their childhood, I don't think that's unusual.

Dean's had to accept the possibility of surviving Sam's death twice now, but I don't think it gets easier.

In Sacrifice, Sam was completing the trials without knowing his death was a part of them. Dean thought finding that out would change Sam's perspective because he took on the trials to prove to Dean they can have hope. And from Dean's perspective, it was permissable to stop. They were not in the middle of Armegeddon. In fact, Dean always framed the trial as payback for the losses they suffered. He's not prepared to lose Sam as part of payback.

Sam on the other hand has been viewing the trials as a way to purify himself and death is a reasonable price. I don't think it's odd for Dean to think Sam does not need purifying, that he loves him as is and Sam needs to know that.

If these two could just talk honestly, they would reach other! I am not for one minute arguing Dean's actions were not hurtful to Sam, just that the lying is perhaps the real sticking point, not the saving of his life. And that Sam needs to follow Cas's lead in thinking about why he feels self-sacrifice is the way to atonement and what he has asked from and gained from Dean in terms of their brotherhood. The talk needs to come from both their perspectives.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 13:54
Hi Manzanita! Yes, these boys are frustrating in their lack of communication.

Dean's position to me doesn't seem contradictory. He knows very well they live a life unlikely to lead to old age. But he intends to protect Sam to the best of his ability until he dies.What he can't get comfortable with is the idea of surviving Sam. Given that he stood in for a parent to Sam during their childhood, I don't think that's unusual.

Dean's had to accept the possibility of surviving Sam's death twice now, but I don't think it gets easier.

In Sacrifice, Sam was completing the trials without knowing his death was a part of them. Dean thought finding that out would change Sam's perspective because he took on the trials to prove to Dean they can have hope. And from Dean's perspective, it was permissable to stop. They were not in the middle of Armegeddon. In fact, Dean always framed the trial as payback for the losses they suffered. He's not prepared to lose Sam as part of payback.

Sam on the other hand has been viewing the trials as a way to purify himself and death is a reasonable price. I don't think it's odd for Dean to think Sam does not need purifying, that he loves him as is and Sam needs to know that.

If these two could just talk honestly, they would reach other! I am not for one minute arguing Dean's actions were not hurtful to Sam, just that the lying is perhaps the real sticking point, not the saving of his life. And that Sam needs to follow Cas's lead in thinking about why he feels self-sacrifice is the way to atonement and what he has asked from and gained from Dean in terms of their brotherhood. The talk needs to come from both their perspectives.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-30 15:00
quote: But I don't think that's a fair assessment of what happened in "Sacrifice." Sam was all over the place in season eight on how he saw his role, making it really difficult for Dean to get a handle on how Sam was feeling .
Sam started the season by saying he felt no responsibility for saving the world. He'd done his bit, the way of the universe is bad things happen, and he can walk away and let other people take their turn at being heroes. He not only could walk away from anonymous people, he could walk away from Kevin. Dean's not the first Winchester to fail Kevin in an hour of need.

i just wanted to add something to this view of sam. i don't know if you will agree, but i think it's important. i don't think sam was all over the place in s8. i think he was in the same dark place he was in when he lost dean the first time. sam and dean are more similar than they are different. i don't know if you recall, but in s2, when sam died dean's first reaction was to quit and walk away. bobby: something big is coming, end of the world big. dean: so let it end. bobby: you don't mean that. dean: i don't. you don't think i've lost enough. you don't think i've paid enough. i'm done with it. dean lost sam and he wanted to quit hunting. he couldn't/wouldn 't do it without his brother. he wasn't thinking about saving the world. his world ended when his brother died. dean went the way of a deal. but he did have bobby for support, if dean had chose to accept it. fast forward to s7, where sam lost dean, cas, bobby, kevin. sam lost everyone. he believed his brother was dead. his reaction was the same reaction as dean made back in s2. he couldn't/wouldn 't do it anymore. he couldn't hunt without his brother. he quit. only in this scenario, sam had no support system to fall back on. he broke and there wasn't anyone to help fix sam. he stayed broken. he ran away. he sought comfort with someone as broken as he was, but he never healed. he was still broken when he left amelia. her "loss" was returned. he no longer shared a common thread with her. sam didn't love her or the life he was living or he would've stayed with her, don or no don. but don came back.she didn't need sam anymore. he was of no use anymore. so he went back to the cabin. yes he lived normal while with her. he experienced, for the first time that sense that the weight of the world wasn't on his shoulders alone. he ran away from responsibility because he couldn't deal with it. couldn't do it alone. looking back to season 2, could dean do it? could dean go on and live happy without sam? he didn't succeed at it in s6 and in s2 that wasn't even an option for dean. are they really that different in that respect? the only thing sam got out of the relationship with amelia was the time needed for him to heal, enough that it enabled him to go back to the cabin. ( and imo i really think even if dean hadn't showed up, that sam would have started to look for kevin) and the chance to see that it is possible to live a life beyond hunting. it's possible not necessarily probable. but it was this glimmer of a dream he held onto, cuz we all dare to dream don't we?
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-30 15:00
quote: But I don't think that's a fair assessment of what happened in "Sacrifice." Sam was all over the place in season eight on how he saw his role, making it really difficult for Dean to get a handle on how Sam was feeling .
Sam started the season by saying he felt no responsibility for saving the world. He'd done his bit, the way of the universe is bad things happen, and he can walk away and let other people take their turn at being heroes. He not only could walk away from anonymous people, he could walk away from Kevin. Dean's not the first Winchester to fail Kevin in an hour of need.

i just wanted to add something to this view of sam. i don't know if you will agree, but i think it's important. i don't think sam was all over the place in s8. i think he was in the same dark place he was in when he lost dean the first time. sam and dean are more similar than they are different. i don't know if you recall, but in s2, when sam died dean's first reaction was to quit and walk away. bobby: something big is coming, end of the world big. dean: so let it end. bobby: you don't mean that. dean: i don't. you don't think i've lost enough. you don't think i've paid enough. i'm done with it. dean lost sam and he wanted to quit hunting. he couldn't/wouldn 't do it without his brother. he wasn't thinking about saving the world. his world ended when his brother died. dean went the way of a deal. but he did have bobby for support, if dean had chose to accept it. fast forward to s7, where sam lost dean, cas, bobby, kevin. sam lost everyone. he believed his brother was dead. his reaction was the same reaction as dean made back in s2. he couldn't/wouldn 't do it anymore. he couldn't hunt without his brother. he quit. only in this scenario, sam had no support system to fall back on. he broke and there wasn't anyone to help fix sam. he stayed broken. he ran away. he sought comfort with someone as broken as he was, but he never healed. he was still broken when he left amelia. her "loss" was returned. he no longer shared a common thread with her. sam didn't love her or the life he was living or he would've stayed with her, don or no don. but don came back.she didn't need sam anymore. he was of no use anymore. so he went back to the cabin. yes he lived normal while with her. he experienced, for the first time that sense that the weight of the world wasn't on his shoulders alone. he ran away from responsibility because he couldn't deal with it. couldn't do it alone. looking back to season 2, could dean do it? could dean go on and live happy without sam? he didn't succeed at it in s6 and in s2 that wasn't even an option for dean. are they really that different in that respect? the only thing sam got out of the relationship with amelia was the time needed for him to heal, enough that it enabled him to go back to the cabin. ( and imo i really think even if dean hadn't showed up, that sam would have started to look for kevin) and the chance to see that it is possible to live a life beyond hunting. it's possible not necessarily probable. but it was this glimmer of a dream he held onto, cuz we all dare to dream don't we?
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-30 15:03
Quote:
But to me, the Mark of Cain is a huge addition to the lore and even Sam and Dean would not be blase about meeting the First Man (Father of Murder) or receiving a mark of biblical power which allows for the killing of immortal knights.
Sorry, I did not see it as blase.He was curious and wanted to know about it that was not blase and then stuck at the point of hunting with crowly which is odd as Dean does not trust demons even after knowing how devious he has been.Killing Abadon is yet to happen and mark is already with Dean but garth is missing and Dean has worked with Crowly of all people.Sam was more foused on hurt maybe but definitely he was more focused on dean working with Crowly the one he was willing to kill mrs Tran for and then there was garth at that moment those were Sam's priorities.Quote:
I also think Bobby's words to Dean about family being family no matter what and he needed to go after Sam and help him, may not have stopped Lucifer rising,
For me it was not about Lucifer rising as if it was not that seal any other might have sufficed (this I think but there is hole called lilith in this theory which can be explained but it would be better if I get a confirmation).Personally it was Dean's chance to get Sam back with him and get him away from Ruby which was his aim.Quote:
I think Sam now has a skewed interpretation of Dean supporting his sacrifice in Swan Song. He seems to now think that sacrifice is all he's good for, if he's in the fight at all.
I am sorry i don't understand how Swan song matters here.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-30 15:03
Quote:
But to me, the Mark of Cain is a huge addition to the lore and even Sam and Dean would not be blase about meeting the First Man (Father of Murder) or receiving a mark of biblical power which allows for the killing of immortal knights.
Sorry, I did not see it as blase.He was curious and wanted to know about it that was not blase and then stuck at the point of hunting with crowly which is odd as Dean does not trust demons even after knowing how devious he has been.Killing Abadon is yet to happen and mark is already with Dean but garth is missing and Dean has worked with Crowly of all people.Sam was more foused on hurt maybe but definitely he was more focused on dean working with Crowly the one he was willing to kill mrs Tran for and then there was garth at that moment those were Sam's priorities.Quote:
I also think Bobby's words to Dean about family being family no matter what and he needed to go after Sam and help him, may not have stopped Lucifer rising,
For me it was not about Lucifer rising as if it was not that seal any other might have sufficed (this I think but there is hole called lilith in this theory which can be explained but it would be better if I get a confirmation).Personally it was Dean's chance to get Sam back with him and get him away from Ruby which was his aim.Quote:
I think Sam now has a skewed interpretation of Dean supporting his sacrifice in Swan Song. He seems to now think that sacrifice is all he's good for, if he's in the fight at all.
I am sorry i don't understand how Swan song matters here.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-30 15:06
i never believed for one moment that sam felt it wasn't his responsibility to save the world. i always felt he just said that to dean because he couldn't tell dean the truth. that he couldn't deal with the responsibility any more. that he couldn't deal with hunting anymore. that he yet again failed to save his brother, failed at keeping kevin safe. i still believe that the dog was put in front of sam to save him from hurting himself. it all goes back to sam's belief that he let his brother down. all he did was make the mistake of honestly believing his brother died and grieved for him and broke because of it and then he learns dean didn't in fact die. damn, sam failed dean again. he let his brother down and dean didn't hide that from sam. he was angry with him for 10 episodes. sam told him he thought he died. he told him he believed he lost his family. still dean told sam that he left him in purgatory for a girl. dean saw sam as failing him again. so what can sam do to make it right to his brother? he can take dean's anger and harsh words to heart. he can believe dean when dean tells him that benny was more of a brother than sam ever was. he can suffer the pain of knowing that dean would protect benny by hurting sam in a way that dean didn't even realize he was doing. sam can try to hang onto his brother the only way he could think to do so, by making dean choose between him and benny. ultimatums...no t uncommon for both boys to make to hold on to ea. other as tight as they could. but taking over the trials so that dean can live. to show dean that he discovered that normal is actually a possibility for both of them. to lead dean to his paradise of no more demons, so he can rest and be happy. sam can do that for his brother. he can give dean the one thing dean has always wanted. no more demons. no more monsters. then maybe dean will forgive him for failing him for not saving him from hell. for failing him.
see sam wasn't all over the place in s8. he was always in that same dark place. it wasn't until sacrifice that sam finally believed that dean believed in him.

just wanted to point that out because i never thought that sam was all over the place in season 8. the way i saw it, sam never really left that dark place he's been the moment he believed his brother was dead.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-30 15:06
i never believed for one moment that sam felt it wasn't his responsibility to save the world. i always felt he just said that to dean because he couldn't tell dean the truth. that he couldn't deal with the responsibility any more. that he couldn't deal with hunting anymore. that he yet again failed to save his brother, failed at keeping kevin safe. i still believe that the dog was put in front of sam to save him from hurting himself. it all goes back to sam's belief that he let his brother down. all he did was make the mistake of honestly believing his brother died and grieved for him and broke because of it and then he learns dean didn't in fact die. damn, sam failed dean again. he let his brother down and dean didn't hide that from sam. he was angry with him for 10 episodes. sam told him he thought he died. he told him he believed he lost his family. still dean told sam that he left him in purgatory for a girl. dean saw sam as failing him again. so what can sam do to make it right to his brother? he can take dean's anger and harsh words to heart. he can believe dean when dean tells him that benny was more of a brother than sam ever was. he can suffer the pain of knowing that dean would protect benny by hurting sam in a way that dean didn't even realize he was doing. sam can try to hang onto his brother the only way he could think to do so, by making dean choose between him and benny. ultimatums...no t uncommon for both boys to make to hold on to ea. other as tight as they could. but taking over the trials so that dean can live. to show dean that he discovered that normal is actually a possibility for both of them. to lead dean to his paradise of no more demons, so he can rest and be happy. sam can do that for his brother. he can give dean the one thing dean has always wanted. no more demons. no more monsters. then maybe dean will forgive him for failing him for not saving him from hell. for failing him.
see sam wasn't all over the place in s8. he was always in that same dark place. it wasn't until sacrifice that sam finally believed that dean believed in him.

just wanted to point that out because i never thought that sam was all over the place in season 8. the way i saw it, sam never really left that dark place he's been the moment he believed his brother was dead.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-01-30 15:06
I think someone has already mentioned this but this show is written by men (mostly) for an all male cast. I think that is why the women that come and go are never really missed. The dialogue is pretty much how men talk and think. Men don't talk the way women would like for them to. In the early years of the show there were more women writers and staff. The dialogue was a little unrealistic for men. I thought Sandra K hit it right on the nose. Actual dialogue=how men talk, dialogue in parenthesis=how women would like them to talk.
Sam said what he needed to say. Dean heard him and understood. Sam got in the car.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-01-30 15:06
I think someone has already mentioned this but this show is written by men (mostly) for an all male cast. I think that is why the women that come and go are never really missed. The dialogue is pretty much how men talk and think. Men don't talk the way women would like for them to. In the early years of the show there were more women writers and staff. The dialogue was a little unrealistic for men. I thought Sandra K hit it right on the nose. Actual dialogue=how men talk, dialogue in parenthesis=how women would like them to talk.
Sam said what he needed to say. Dean heard him and understood. Sam got in the car.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-01-30 15:06
I enjoyed your review.

Gerry, you explain Dean's POV really well. I actually got a better perspective of what he sacrificed with Benny and what Sam demanded of him. But it's so hard for me to sympathise with him when he killed Amy so easily not long before after Sam asked him not to. Yes, Sam hadn't know Amy long, by she had killed her mother saving his life. Dean's "rules" don't apply to him, and it's frustrating.

I really have a problem with you framing Dean's decision to save Sam as Sam basically not thinking clearly enough to make that decision for himself, so Dean has to decide for him. That was Dean's reasoning too with Amy I think. To me, and I hope I'm not coming on too strong with my analogy, it's a little bit like the guy accused of rape who says: "But her skirt was really short and she was flirting with me and I know she said no, but she was sending mixed signals!"

I feel you're defending Dean's actions like Dean himself is doing. I don't blame you, as we get so little on Sam that it's hard to defend him, even less explain him. Sam is very much a plot-driven character, IMO.

As for the rest of the review, I don't think that Sam was referencing Season 4 at all in anything he said. Did I miss something? I thought he was saying that the brotherhood is broken and saying "we're family" doesn't cut it anymore and that he was referencing what just happened.







To me,
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-01-30 15:06
I enjoyed your review.

Gerry, you explain Dean's POV really well. I actually got a better perspective of what he sacrificed with Benny and what Sam demanded of him. But it's so hard for me to sympathise with him when he killed Amy so easily not long before after Sam asked him not to. Yes, Sam hadn't know Amy long, by she had killed her mother saving his life. Dean's "rules" don't apply to him, and it's frustrating.

I really have a problem with you framing Dean's decision to save Sam as Sam basically not thinking clearly enough to make that decision for himself, so Dean has to decide for him. That was Dean's reasoning too with Amy I think. To me, and I hope I'm not coming on too strong with my analogy, it's a little bit like the guy accused of rape who says: "But her skirt was really short and she was flirting with me and I know she said no, but she was sending mixed signals!"

I feel you're defending Dean's actions like Dean himself is doing. I don't blame you, as we get so little on Sam that it's hard to defend him, even less explain him. Sam is very much a plot-driven character, IMO.

As for the rest of the review, I don't think that Sam was referencing Season 4 at all in anything he said. Did I miss something? I thought he was saying that the brotherhood is broken and saying "we're family" doesn't cut it anymore and that he was referencing what just happened.







To me,
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 15:16
Quoting nappi815:
quote: But I don't think that's a fair assessment of what happened in "Sacrifice." Sam was all over the place in season eight on how he saw his role, making it really difficult for Dean to get a handle on how Sam was feeling .
Sam started the season by saying he felt no responsibility for saving the world. He'd done his bit, the way of the universe is bad things happen, and he can walk away and let other people take their turn at being heroes. He not only could walk away from anonymous people, he could walk away from Kevin. Dean's not the first Winchester to fail Kevin in an hour of need.

i just wanted to add something to this view of sam. i don't know if you will agree, but i think it's important. i don't think sam was all over the place in s8. i think he was in the same dark place he was in when he lost dean the first time. sam and dean are more similar than they are different. i don't know if you recall, but in s2, when sam died dean's first reaction was to quit and walk away. bobby: something big is coming, end of the world big. dean: so let it end. bobby: you don't mean that. dean: i don't. you don't think i've lost enough. you don't think i've paid enough. i'm done with it. dean lost sam and he wanted to quit hunting. he couldn't/wouldn't do it without his brother. he wasn't thinking about saving the world. his world ended when his brother died. dean went the way of a deal. but he did have bobby for support, if dean had chose to accept it. fast forward to s7, where sam lost dean, cas, bobby, kevin. sam lost everyone. he believed his brother was dead. his reaction was the same reaction as dean made back in s2. he couldn't/wouldn't do it anymore. he couldn't hunt without his brother. he quit. only in this scenario, sam had no support system to fall back on. he broke and there wasn't anyone to help fix sam. he stayed broken. he ran away. he sought comfort with someone as broken as he was, but he never healed. he was still broken when he left amelia. her "loss" was returned. he no longer shared a common thread with her. sam didn't love her or the life he was living or he would've stayed with her, don or no don. but don came back.she didn't need sam anymore. he was of no use anymore. so he went back to the cabin. yes he lived normal while with her. he experienced, for the first time that sense that the weight of the world wasn't on his shoulders alone. he ran away from responsibility because he couldn't deal with it. couldn't do it alone. looking back to season 2, could dean do it? could dean go on and live happy without sam? he didn't succeed at it in s6 and in s2 that wasn't even an option for dean. are they really that different in that respect? the only thing sam got out of the relationship with amelia was the time needed for him to heal, enough that it enabled him to go back to the cabin. ( and imo i really think even if dean hadn't showed up, that sam would have started to look for kevin) and the chance to see that it is possible to live a life beyond hunting. it's possible not necessarily probable. but it was this glimmer of a dream he held onto, cuz we all dare to dream don't we?


On this point, we'll most likely need to agree to disagree. (-: Your interpretation is the one I would have really liked to see play out in season 8 and hoped would. But to me, it didn't.

I think Sam's reasons for not looking for Dean were the polar opposite of Dean's shortlived attempt to walk away after losing Dean. Sam left well enough alone because he thought it was the mature thing to do, that he was acting on a promise they made to each other. Sam didn't know for sure what happened to Dean, unlike Dean with Sam, and he decided he could accept that uncertainty and live with it.

I think Amelia was presented as a real alternative to the hunting life and he left her only because duty called him - he knew he owed Kevin protection. I think she is still being framed as Sam's unicorn, not as representative of a life he tried and realised didn't fit him. I think Amelia was presented as healing Sam.

I don't think any of this was well told. I really dislike Sam's story in the first half of season 8. But I think it is what the writers were aiming for. I accept there are other interpretations , though.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 15:16
Quote:
quote: But I don't think that's a fair assessment of what happened in "Sacrifice." Sam was all over the place in season eight on how he saw his role, making it really difficult for Dean to get a handle on how Sam was feeling .
Sam started the season by saying he felt no responsibility for saving the world. He'd done his bit, the way of the universe is bad things happen, and he can walk away and let other people take their turn at being heroes. He not only could walk away from anonymous people, he could walk away from Kevin. Dean's not the first Winchester to fail Kevin in an hour of need.

i just wanted to add something to this view of sam. i don't know if you will agree, but i think it's important. i don't think sam was all over the place in s8. i think he was in the same dark place he was in when he lost dean the first time. sam and dean are more similar than they are different. i don't know if you recall, but in s2, when sam died dean's first reaction was to quit and walk away. bobby: something big is coming, end of the world big. dean: so let it end. bobby: you don't mean that. dean: i don't. you don't think i've lost enough. you don't think i've paid enough. i'm done with it. dean lost sam and he wanted to quit hunting. he couldn't/wouldn't do it without his brother. he wasn't thinking about saving the world. his world ended when his brother died. dean went the way of a deal. but he did have bobby for support, if dean had chose to accept it. fast forward to s7, where sam lost dean, cas, bobby, kevin. sam lost everyone. he believed his brother was dead. his reaction was the same reaction as dean made back in s2. he couldn't/wouldn't do it anymore. he couldn't hunt without his brother. he quit. only in this scenario, sam had no support system to fall back on. he broke and there wasn't anyone to help fix sam. he stayed broken. he ran away. he sought comfort with someone as broken as he was, but he never healed. he was still broken when he left amelia. her "loss" was returned. he no longer shared a common thread with her. sam didn't love her or the life he was living or he would've stayed with her, don or no don. but don came back.she didn't need sam anymore. he was of no use anymore. so he went back to the cabin. yes he lived normal while with her. he experienced, for the first time that sense that the weight of the world wasn't on his shoulders alone. he ran away from responsibility because he couldn't deal with it. couldn't do it alone. looking back to season 2, could dean do it? could dean go on and live happy without sam? he didn't succeed at it in s6 and in s2 that wasn't even an option for dean. are they really that different in that respect? the only thing sam got out of the relationship with amelia was the time needed for him to heal, enough that it enabled him to go back to the cabin. ( and imo i really think even if dean hadn't showed up, that sam would have started to look for kevin) and the chance to see that it is possible to live a life beyond hunting. it's possible not necessarily probable. but it was this glimmer of a dream he held onto, cuz we all dare to dream don't we?
On this point, we'll most likely need to agree to disagree. (-: Your interpretation is the one I would have really liked to see play out in season 8 and hoped would. But to me, it didn't.

I think Sam's reasons for not looking for Dean were the polar opposite of Dean's shortlived attempt to walk away after losing Dean. Sam left well enough alone because he thought it was the mature thing to do, that he was acting on a promise they made to each other. Sam didn't know for sure what happened to Dean, unlike Dean with Sam, and he decided he could accept that uncertainty and live with it.

I think Amelia was presented as a real alternative to the hunting life and he left her only because duty called him - he knew he owed Kevin protection. I think she is still being framed as Sam's unicorn, not as representative of a life he tried and realised didn't fit him. I think Amelia was presented as healing Sam.

I don't think any of this was well told. I really dislike Sam's story in the first half of season 8. But I think it is what the writers were aiming for. I accept there are other interpretations , though.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-01-30 15:22
#21 Gerry - nice review but I disagree with one of your conclusions. And since you have brought it up repeatedly in your reviews on another site, figured I'd chime in here.

In your comment in #21 you said - This episode's ultimatum isn't the first one Sam has given Dean. Last season, he put the terms of the boys working together as Dean severing his friendship with Benny. Sam's attitude to Benny was a complete contradiction to his usual attitude on monsters, including the one he showed in this episode.

In regards to the ultimatum in Torn and Frayed - yes, Sam did give Dean an ultimatum at the start of the episode, and Dean responded by walking out, which meant to me that he rejected that ultimatum. However, I think him severing things with Benny had nothing to do with that. In their conversation at the end of the episode, Dean told Sam that, whatever he decides, decide - both feet in, both feet out, anything else is what gets you killed. He really couldn't expect Sam to cut things off with Amelia (both feet in), and not do the same himself with Benny, who had proven to be a distraction. The fact that Sam didn't bring Benny or the ultimatum up at the end of the episode meant to me that Dean did this of his own volition, realizing that Benny was in fact distracting him from the Winchester "holy grail", closing the gates of hell.

And yes, of course Sam's attitude about Benny was OOC - it was born more out of jealousy and, to a some degree, Dean's secretiveness about his friendship with Benny.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-01-30 15:22
#21 Gerry - nice review but I disagree with one of your conclusions. And since you have brought it up repeatedly in your reviews on another site, figured I'd chime in here.

In your comment in #21 you said - This episode's ultimatum isn't the first one Sam has given Dean. Last season, he put the terms of the boys working together as Dean severing his friendship with Benny. Sam's attitude to Benny was a complete contradiction to his usual attitude on monsters, including the one he showed in this episode.

In regards to the ultimatum in Torn and Frayed - yes, Sam did give Dean an ultimatum at the start of the episode, and Dean responded by walking out, which meant to me that he rejected that ultimatum. However, I think him severing things with Benny had nothing to do with that. In their conversation at the end of the episode, Dean told Sam that, whatever he decides, decide - both feet in, both feet out, anything else is what gets you killed. He really couldn't expect Sam to cut things off with Amelia (both feet in), and not do the same himself with Benny, who had proven to be a distraction. The fact that Sam didn't bring Benny or the ultimatum up at the end of the episode meant to me that Dean did this of his own volition, realizing that Benny was in fact distracting him from the Winchester "holy grail", closing the gates of hell.

And yes, of course Sam's attitude about Benny was OOC - it was born more out of jealousy and, to a some degree, Dean's secretiveness about his friendship with Benny.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-30 15:22
i tend to think self sacrifice is a major issue with sam because and it's just my feeling, but because he feels responsible for most everyone in his life who has died. i still think he feels responsible for his mom's death. i know he feels responsible for jessica's death. he couldn't stop dean from going to hell and he was blinded by anger and fear for his brother to see what his father was up to in in my time of dying. he also stated in the great escapist how unclean he felt as a little boy. he always seemed to know that there was something dark in him and he wasn't worthy. i tend to lean towards sam's desire to not hunt as part of his self loathing, as though he's not worthy of such an honorable quest as to save lives. then i think he ran from hunting so that he can escape what's inside him. i think it's both. i feel like sam feels like sacrifice is the one thing that can make him worthy, especially worthy of his brother.

of course that's just me . ;-)
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-30 15:22
i tend to think self sacrifice is a major issue with sam because and it's just my feeling, but because he feels responsible for most everyone in his life who has died. i still think he feels responsible for his mom's death. i know he feels responsible for jessica's death. he couldn't stop dean from going to hell and he was blinded by anger and fear for his brother to see what his father was up to in in my time of dying. he also stated in the great escapist how unclean he felt as a little boy. he always seemed to know that there was something dark in him and he wasn't worthy. i tend to lean towards sam's desire to not hunt as part of his self loathing, as though he's not worthy of such an honorable quest as to save lives. then i think he ran from hunting so that he can escape what's inside him. i think it's both. i feel like sam feels like sacrifice is the one thing that can make him worthy, especially worthy of his brother.

of course that's just me . ;-)
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-01-30 15:45
Some really great comments. I had one other thought - I keep reading people referring to Sam as suicidal. I really don't think that's the case; he might be too willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good (as is Dean) but that's not really suicidal. He's no more suicidal than a soldier throwing themselves on a grenade to save their comrades.

Don't get me wrong - Sam has a really screwed up sense of self worth. But, there was an important interaction between Castiel and Sam in First Born; when Sam said his life wasn't worth any more than Castiels or Deans or Kevins, it took Castiel to remind him that it wasn't worth any less either. I think Sam took that to heart and it might have been the proverbial turning point for him, but I guess time will tell.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-01-30 15:45
Some really great comments. I had one other thought - I keep reading people referring to Sam as suicidal. I really don't think that's the case; he might be too willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good (as is Dean) but that's not really suicidal. He's no more suicidal than a soldier throwing themselves on a grenade to save their comrades.

Don't get me wrong - Sam has a really screwed up sense of self worth. But, there was an important interaction between Castiel and Sam in First Born; when Sam said his life wasn't worth any more than Castiels or Deans or Kevins, it took Castiel to remind him that it wasn't worth any less either. I think Sam took that to heart and it might have been the proverbial turning point for him, but I guess time will tell.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-01-30 15:46
#29Gerry Didn't Sam say, I think to Amelia, I broke and ran after he lost his brother. Broke to me means after Dean died he fell apart. Ran to me means he was lost and alone driving till he hit a dog. Also I thought it was Dean's conversation with Kevin that changed Dean's attitude about Benny. Kevin said he couldn't enjoy a world that needed to be saved. I thought that was the bell that went off in Dean's head. All in or all out. When Dean told Sam that, Sam went to clear his head. Dean called Benny. Sam had no influence over that conversation. I don't think that Sam was "jealous" of Benny. He was hurt that Dean considered him the better brother. Dean also kept Benny a secret. I just watched Metamorphysis (sp) this morning. Dean... "if it was all so good why did you lie about it". This wasn't a very well written episode and it was too bad because this was some very important dialogue. It was unsatisfying that there was only a few minutes for the guys (Jared and Jensen) to convey how their characters felt. I got it but it would have been nice to have gotten more time for the lead actors and about 5 minutes less monologue from the Monster(?).
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-01-30 15:46
#29Gerry Didn't Sam say, I think to Amelia, I broke and ran after he lost his brother. Broke to me means after Dean died he fell apart. Ran to me means he was lost and alone driving till he hit a dog. Also I thought it was Dean's conversation with Kevin that changed Dean's attitude about Benny. Kevin said he couldn't enjoy a world that needed to be saved. I thought that was the bell that went off in Dean's head. All in or all out. When Dean told Sam that, Sam went to clear his head. Dean called Benny. Sam had no influence over that conversation. I don't think that Sam was "jealous" of Benny. He was hurt that Dean considered him the better brother. Dean also kept Benny a secret. I just watched Metamorphysis (sp) this morning. Dean... "if it was all so good why did you lie about it". This wasn't a very well written episode and it was too bad because this was some very important dialogue. It was unsatisfying that there was only a few minutes for the guys (Jared and Jensen) to convey how their characters felt. I got it but it would have been nice to have gotten more time for the lead actors and about 5 minutes less monologue from the Monster(?).
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-30 15:51
gerry i totally get your opinion and respect it and i promise i will no longer beat up on this dead horse, but just one last thing. i've gone on so often in so many posts regarding this in s8 and i truly am done after this one last statement. as i respectfully agree to disagree with you on this matter, i will say this much, one last time. i honestly believe sam believed dean was truly dead. i think after everything that has happened to sam in s6 and s7, sam watching dean vanish in a blast of dick roman was more than his brain could emotionally handle. it wasn't only dean that disappeared, it was cas. crowley made it very clear to sam that dean shouldn't have been that close and had sam believing that dean was truly dead. based on what i've seen in sacrifice, along with the many clues that were given to us during the course of the season, it was very clear that something happened to sam. when he stated to amelia that he imploded and ran, he wasn't exaggerating. garth made reference that something terrible must've happened if sam didn't look for dean. meg questioned sam's sanity? you hit a dog and stopped? why would he hit a dog? why would he stop hunting? bobby told sam they were really off the rails. and in sacrifice, sam broke down and basically admitted to letting dean down yet again, failing him yet again. so no, i'm sorry but i don't believe for one second that sam just didn't look for dean. when sam spoke of honoring the deal, it was a deal made if they died.and you are right, sam did the mature thing. sam believed dean died and he honored the deal and did nothing about it. he broke the vicious cycle that dean had so often talked about. sam accepted dean's death but he didn't handle it well. . as for sam's line to bobby about the boys having a deal, well as i recall, bobby had no clue at all what really happened and sam just let bobby rail on him without even an attempt to explain himself. another example of sam feeling he deserves to be punished. he failed, he deserves whatever he has coming. so he takes it.

ok done now. won't go rehashing s8 anymore. it's honestly water under the bridge and it's not my place to try to change people's opinions on how they perceived it. i most definitely agree to disagree with you on this matter, but with the utmost respect ;-) .
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-30 15:51
gerry i totally get your opinion and respect it and i promise i will no longer beat up on this dead horse, but just one last thing. i've gone on so often in so many posts regarding this in s8 and i truly am done after this one last statement. as i respectfully agree to disagree with you on this matter, i will say this much, one last time. i honestly believe sam believed dean was truly dead. i think after everything that has happened to sam in s6 and s7, sam watching dean vanish in a blast of dick roman was more than his brain could emotionally handle. it wasn't only dean that disappeared, it was cas. crowley made it very clear to sam that dean shouldn't have been that close and had sam believing that dean was truly dead. based on what i've seen in sacrifice, along with the many clues that were given to us during the course of the season, it was very clear that something happened to sam. when he stated to amelia that he imploded and ran, he wasn't exaggerating. garth made reference that something terrible must've happened if sam didn't look for dean. meg questioned sam's sanity? you hit a dog and stopped? why would he hit a dog? why would he stop hunting? bobby told sam they were really off the rails. and in sacrifice, sam broke down and basically admitted to letting dean down yet again, failing him yet again. so no, i'm sorry but i don't believe for one second that sam just didn't look for dean. when sam spoke of honoring the deal, it was a deal made if they died.and you are right, sam did the mature thing. sam believed dean died and he honored the deal and did nothing about it. he broke the vicious cycle that dean had so often talked about. sam accepted dean's death but he didn't handle it well. . as for sam's line to bobby about the boys having a deal, well as i recall, bobby had no clue at all what really happened and sam just let bobby rail on him without even an attempt to explain himself. another example of sam feeling he deserves to be punished. he failed, he deserves whatever he has coming. so he takes it.

ok done now. won't go rehashing s8 anymore. it's honestly water under the bridge and it's not my place to try to change people's opinions on how they perceived it. i most definitely agree to disagree with you on this matter, but with the utmost respect ;-) .
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 16:10
Quoting JuliaG:
I enjoyed your review.

Gerry, you explain Dean's POV really well. I actually got a better perspective of what he sacrificed with Benny and what Sam demanded of him. But it's so hard for me to sympathise with him when he killed Amy so easily not long before after Sam asked him not to. Yes, Sam hadn't know Amy long, by she had killed her mother saving his life. Dean's "rules" don't apply to him, and it's frustrating.

I really have a problem with you framing Dean's decision to save Sam as Sam basically not thinking clearly enough to make that decision for himself, so Dean has to decide for him. That was Dean's reasoning too with Amy I think. To me, and I hope I'm not coming on too strong with my analogy, it's a little bit like the guy accused of rape who says: "But her skirt was really short and she was flirting with me and I know she said no, but she was sending mixed signals!"

I feel you're defending Dean's actions like Dean himself is doing. I don't blame you, as we get so little on Sam that it's hard to defend him, even less explain him. Sam is very much a plot-driven character, IMO.

As for the rest of the review, I don't think that Sam was referencing Season 4 at all in anything he said. Did I miss something? I thought he was saying that the brotherhood is broken and saying "we're family" doesn't cut it anymore and that he was referencing what just happened.

To me,


Hi Julia G, no I don't think you are coming on too strong, though I see the analogy differently. I appreciate you saying I gave Dean's point of view well. I have always felt I could understand and sympathize with both. Season 8 tested me, though. (-:

On the Amy question, I think Dean's sense of values was consistent between Amy and Benny. It's Sam's that changed. Amy had already decided to start killing when Sam found her. This was not a case of a monster who had successfully found a way not to kill, like Benny and like Garth and his family, and Dean just decided he needed to kill her on general principles. Yes, Amy had a reason why she was killing, but she was killing people as food nonetheless.

With Benny, he had found a way to stop killing before he went to Purgatory and Dean believed him when he said he was committed to it. Unlike Sam with Amy, Dean knew Benny very well by the end of his Purgatory stint.

But even so, Dean told Benny he had to keep his nose clean, and when Sam gave him reason to believe Benny might not have, he investigated. When he confronts Benny in the forest, he has his knife out and Benny lays his hand on his knife. He knows this confrontation could very well end in a fight for his life and the only way to get Dean to stand down is to convince him he did not kill anyone. If he had indeed killed the two victims as food, even for a good reason like healing himself, Dean would have done his best to do to Benny what he did to Amy. Later, he tells Benny that if he ends up killing hunters because hunters find out about him, Dean'll have to put a stop to Benny for that, too.

At no point does Dean's friendship with Benny mean Benny gets a free pass on killing people for food. Defending his granddaughter was a different thing. Dean would have defended her as well.

I understand your misgivings about Dean knowing better than Sam about saving him. I agree that there are definitely consent issues here. But to me, there are different ways consent comes into play.

To me, the way this issue was set up, a medical model comes into play as well as the rape one you mention. The medical model makes more sense to me, but I realize this is very much a mileage may vary scenario.

I think there are times when we do allow consent to be overridden. When a person's mental state makes him a danger to himself or others is one of those times. And it's an awful decision to have to make, with judgement calls and guilt and self-interest woven in. People who have to deal with such a situation know all about blame and guilt and 20/20 hindsight--it's messy.

I think Dean acknowledges that his need to protect Sam has an element of selfishness in it--he acknowledged that in season 3. But it's not all selfishness. And while Sam does have the right to decide whether to live or die, if he had decided to sacrifice himself in the church after telling Dean he felt he just let people down over and over again, so he didn't deserve to live, I would have felt that was a terrible ending for Sam, and that his ending was less about autonomy than distorted thinking.

So I allow Dean that aspect as well in his decision making, as well as the selfishness. He had just heard Sam say he might as well die because of how flawed he was and that he based some of that feeling on his perception of how Dean felt about him.

Cas seemed to think Sam needed to really examine the way he valued his own life and that need to atone. Sam's talking about his need to balance his books and how he's responsible for everything that goes wrong from now to eternity, even though shutting the gates of hell wouldn't change anything the boys are dealing with at the moment.

Without taking away Dean's need to allow Sam to make his own choices, which this scenario is definitely set up to explore, I think his choice to save Sam has some shades of grey, not just black and white tones.

On the season 4 question, I took Sam's saying that everything bad that's happened between Sam and Dean happened because of family goes back further than this season and he's talking about their history since they started hunting together in season one.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 16:10
Quote:
I enjoyed your review.

Gerry, you explain Dean's POV really well. I actually got a better perspective of what he sacrificed with Benny and what Sam demanded of him. But it's so hard for me to sympathise with him when he killed Amy so easily not long before after Sam asked him not to. Yes, Sam hadn't know Amy long, by she had killed her mother saving his life. Dean's "rules" don't apply to him, and it's frustrating.

I really have a problem with you framing Dean's decision to save Sam as Sam basically not thinking clearly enough to make that decision for himself, so Dean has to decide for him. That was Dean's reasoning too with Amy I think. To me, and I hope I'm not coming on too strong with my analogy, it's a little bit like the guy accused of rape who says: "But her skirt was really short and she was flirting with me and I know she said no, but she was sending mixed signals!"

I feel you're defending Dean's actions like Dean himself is doing. I don't blame you, as we get so little on Sam that it's hard to defend him, even less explain him. Sam is very much a plot-driven character, IMO.

As for the rest of the review, I don't think that Sam was referencing Season 4 at all in anything he said. Did I miss something? I thought he was saying that the brotherhood is broken and saying "we're family" doesn't cut it anymore and that he was referencing what just happened.

To me,
Hi Julia G, no I don't think you are coming on too strong, though I see the analogy differently. I appreciate you saying I gave Dean's point of view well. I have always felt I could understand and sympathize with both. Season 8 tested me, though. (-:

On the Amy question, I think Dean's sense of values was consistent between Amy and Benny. It's Sam's that changed. Amy had already decided to start killing when Sam found her. This was not a case of a monster who had successfully found a way not to kill, like Benny and like Garth and his family, and Dean just decided he needed to kill her on general principles. Yes, Amy had a reason why she was killing, but she was killing people as food nonetheless.

With Benny, he had found a way to stop killing before he went to Purgatory and Dean believed him when he said he was committed to it. Unlike Sam with Amy, Dean knew Benny very well by the end of his Purgatory stint.

But even so, Dean told Benny he had to keep his nose clean, and when Sam gave him reason to believe Benny might not have, he investigated. When he confronts Benny in the forest, he has his knife out and Benny lays his hand on his knife. He knows this confrontation could very well end in a fight for his life and the only way to get Dean to stand down is to convince him he did not kill anyone. If he had indeed killed the two victims as food, even for a good reason like healing himself, Dean would have done his best to do to Benny what he did to Amy. Later, he tells Benny that if he ends up killing hunters because hunters find out about him, Dean'll have to put a stop to Benny for that, too.

At no point does Dean's friendship with Benny mean Benny gets a free pass on killing people for food. Defending his granddaughter was a different thing. Dean would have defended her as well.

I understand your misgivings about Dean knowing better than Sam about saving him. I agree that there are definitely consent issues here. But to me, there are different ways consent comes into play.

To me, the way this issue was set up, a medical model comes into play as well as the rape one you mention. The medical model makes more sense to me, but I realize this is very much a mileage may vary scenario.

I think there are times when we do allow consent to be overridden. When a person's mental state makes him a danger to himself or others is one of those times. And it's an awful decision to have to make, with judgement calls and guilt and self-interest woven in. People who have to deal with such a situation know all about blame and guilt and 20/20 hindsight--it's messy.

I think Dean acknowledges that his need to protect Sam has an element of selfishness in it--he acknowledged that in season 3. But it's not all selfishness. And while Sam does have the right to decide whether to live or die, if he had decided to sacrifice himself in the church after telling Dean he felt he just let people down over and over again, so he didn't deserve to live, I would have felt that was a terrible ending for Sam, and that his ending was less about autonomy than distorted thinking.

So I allow Dean that aspect as well in his decision making, as well as the selfishness. He had just heard Sam say he might as well die because of how flawed he was and that he based some of that feeling on his perception of how Dean felt about him.

Cas seemed to think Sam needed to really examine the way he valued his own life and that need to atone. Sam's talking about his need to balance his books and how he's responsible for everything that goes wrong from now to eternity, even though shutting the gates of hell wouldn't change anything the boys are dealing with at the moment.

Without taking away Dean's need to allow Sam to make his own choices, which this scenario is definitely set up to explore, I think his choice to save Sam has some shades of grey, not just black and white tones.

On the season 4 question, I took Sam's saying that everything bad that's happened between Sam and Dean happened because of family goes back further than this season and he's talking about their history since they started hunting together in season one.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-30 16:14
Quoting cheryl42:
#29Gerry Didn't Sam say, I think to Amelia, I broke and ran after he lost his brother. Broke to me means after Dean died he fell apart. Ran to me means he was lost and alone driving till he hit a dog. Also I thought it was Dean's conversation with Kevin that changed Dean's attitude about Benny. Kevin said he couldn't enjoy a world that needed to be saved. I thought that was the bell that went off in Dean's head. All in or all out. When Dean told Sam that, Sam went to clear his head. Dean called Benny. Sam had no influence over that conversation. I don't think that Sam was "jealous" of Benny. He was hurt that Dean considered him the better brother. Dean also kept Benny a secret. I just watched Metamorphysis (sp) this morning. Dean... "if it was all so good why did you lie about it". This wasn't a very well written episode and it was too bad because this was some very important dialogue. It was unsatisfying that there was only a few minutes for the guys (Jared and Jensen) to convey how their characters felt. I got it but it would have been nice to have gotten more time for the lead actors and about 5 minutes less monologue from the Monster(?).


you are right cheryl..sam told amelia he lost his brother and he imploded and ran.
i also agree with cheryl regarding benny. sam's instant reaction of benny was distrust. why? well for one he's a vampire. another he's a purgatory vampire. and thirdly, the only reason sam found out about benny was because dean was in dire straits and called on sam. if not for that, dean had no intention of ever telling sam about benny. why? why keep benny a secret if he was so awesome? sam's belief, that dean didn't trust in sam. the truth, and i've said it a million times, dean never trusted benny topside. dean knew benny wouldn't let him down in purgatory because benny knew that dean was his ticket out. in truth, dean really had no idea what benny would do once topside. every call dean had with benny started with "what's wrong". dean was always tense concerning benny. dean owed benny , they were friends, but dean could never bring himself to trust him. if he had trusted benny, then dean never would've kept him a secret in the first place.

did you ever wonder why in citizen fang dean just didn't bring sam with him so sam can see for himself that benny was different? it would've solved everyone's doubts. dean always kept sam apart from benny. i always felt there were a couple of reasons for that.. one, dean didn't trust benny and if since he wasn't sure he didn't want to risk bringing sam. another reason has to do with dean's hypocrisy. benny was no different than amy.dean's speech to amy about killing someday because that's what she is. going behind sam's back. telling him he did what he couldn't. the only difference between amy and benny was that benny was dean's friend and amy was sam's. but that speech dean gave amy held just as true for benny. because dean owed benny. but you see sam owed amy. there is a hypocrisy there. a famous dean double standard. if sam found out that benny got out of purgatory because of a deal , because he basically blackmailed dean into it, then sam would've been able to strike back at dean when he claimed benny was the only one who never let him down. of course benny didn't let you down dean, you were his ticket out. it was a very convoluted situation imo. but the core of it was trust and sam's belief that dean trusted in a vampire more than he trusted in him....a skewed view. in fact, dean held out on sam in regards to benny for the opposite reason. he didn't trust in him the way he laid claim that he did. if that wasn't the case then i see no reason on this planet why dean felt it necessary to keep benny a secret and then keeping sam and benny apart, never allieving sam's doubts simply by letting sam have contact with him.
for the record, in a deleted scene in taxi driver, dean asked benny if he fed and benny told dean not to ask questions he won't like the answers to. so in the end, even though it wasn't in the eppy, benny did feed on humans, so he was in fact like amy and dean was right in his speech to amy. that speech also applied to benny as well. i think the reason that they put that on the editing floor had more to do with s9. it's always been my feeling that if they included that, then dean would've not trusted his intincts and therefore wouldn't have made the decision to trust in ezekiel. but that's just my thoughts on that.
again though, old dead horse that i will no longer beat. s9, moving on. :lol:
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-30 16:14
Quote:
#29Gerry Didn't Sam say, I think to Amelia, I broke and ran after he lost his brother. Broke to me means after Dean died he fell apart. Ran to me means he was lost and alone driving till he hit a dog. Also I thought it was Dean's conversation with Kevin that changed Dean's attitude about Benny. Kevin said he couldn't enjoy a world that needed to be saved. I thought that was the bell that went off in Dean's head. All in or all out. When Dean told Sam that, Sam went to clear his head. Dean called Benny. Sam had no influence over that conversation. I don't think that Sam was "jealous" of Benny. He was hurt that Dean considered him the better brother. Dean also kept Benny a secret. I just watched Metamorphysis (sp) this morning. Dean... "if it was all so good why did you lie about it". This wasn't a very well written episode and it was too bad because this was some very important dialogue. It was unsatisfying that there was only a few minutes for the guys (Jared and Jensen) to convey how their characters felt. I got it but it would have been nice to have gotten more time for the lead actors and about 5 minutes less monologue from the Monster(?).
you are right cheryl..sam told amelia he lost his brother and he imploded and ran.
i also agree with cheryl regarding benny. sam's instant reaction of benny was distrust. why? well for one he's a vampire. another he's a purgatory vampire. and thirdly, the only reason sam found out about benny was because dean was in dire straits and called on sam. if not for that, dean had no intention of ever telling sam about benny. why? why keep benny a secret if he was so awesome? sam's belief, that dean didn't trust in sam. the truth, and i've said it a million times, dean never trusted benny topside. dean knew benny wouldn't let him down in purgatory because benny knew that dean was his ticket out. in truth, dean really had no idea what benny would do once topside. every call dean had with benny started with "what's wrong". dean was always tense concerning benny. dean owed benny , they were friends, but dean could never bring himself to trust him. if he had trusted benny, then dean never would've kept him a secret in the first place.

did you ever wonder why in citizen fang dean just didn't bring sam with him so sam can see for himself that benny was different? it would've solved everyone's doubts. dean always kept sam apart from benny. i always felt there were a couple of reasons for that.. one, dean didn't trust benny and if since he wasn't sure he didn't want to risk bringing sam. another reason has to do with dean's hypocrisy. benny was no different than amy.dean's speech to amy about killing someday because that's what she is. going behind sam's back. telling him he did what he couldn't. the only difference between amy and benny was that benny was dean's friend and amy was sam's. but that speech dean gave amy held just as true for benny. because dean owed benny. but you see sam owed amy. there is a hypocrisy there. a famous dean double standard. if sam found out that benny got out of purgatory because of a deal , because he basically blackmailed dean into it, then sam would've been able to strike back at dean when he claimed benny was the only one who never let him down. of course benny didn't let you down dean, you were his ticket out. it was a very convoluted situation imo. but the core of it was trust and sam's belief that dean trusted in a vampire more than he trusted in him....a skewed view. in fact, dean held out on sam in regards to benny for the opposite reason. he didn't trust in him the way he laid claim that he did. if that wasn't the case then i see no reason on this planet why dean felt it necessary to keep benny a secret and then keeping sam and benny apart, never allieving sam's doubts simply by letting sam have contact with him.
for the record, in a deleted scene in taxi driver, dean asked benny if he fed and benny told dean not to ask questions he won't like the answers to. so in the end, even though it wasn't in the eppy, benny did feed on humans, so he was in fact like amy and dean was right in his speech to amy. that speech also applied to benny as well. i think the reason that they put that on the editing floor had more to do with s9. it's always been my feeling that if they included that, then dean would've not trusted his intincts and therefore wouldn't have made the decision to trust in ezekiel. but that's just my thoughts on that.
again though, old dead horse that i will no longer beat. s9, moving on. :lol:
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 16:22
Quoting njspnfan:
#21 Gerry - nice review but I disagree with one of your conclusions. And since you have brought it up repeatedly in your reviews on another site, figured I'd chime in here.

In your comment in #21 you said - This episode's ultimatum isn't the first one Sam has given Dean. Last season, he put the terms of the boys working together as Dean severing his friendship with Benny. Sam's attitude to Benny was a complete contradiction to his usual attitude on monsters, including the one he showed in this episode.

In regards to the ultimatum in Torn and Frayed - yes, Sam did give Dean an ultimatum at the start of the episode, and Dean responded by walking out, which meant to me that he rejected that ultimatum. However, I think him severing things with Benny had nothing to do with that. In their conversation at the end of the episode, Dean told Sam that, whatever he decides, decide - both feet in, both feet out, anything else is what gets you killed. He really couldn't expect Sam to cut things off with Amelia (both feet in), and not do the same himself with Benny, who had proven to be a distraction. The fact that Sam didn't bring Benny or the ultimatum up at the end of the episode meant to me that Dean did this of his own volition, realizing that Benny was in fact distracting him from the Winchester "holy grail", closing the gates of hell.

And yes, of course Sam's attitude about Benny was OOC - it was born more out of jealousy and, to a some degree, Dean's secretiveness about his friendship with Benny.


To me, I saw Dean as thinking over Sam's ultimatum, because it went against his own set of values. But he knew Sam well enough to know he meant what he said. I saw Sam never taking back his words as his ultimatum standing. Our mileage will probably vary on this. (-:
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 16:22
Quote:
#21 Gerry - nice review but I disagree with one of your conclusions. And since you have brought it up repeatedly in your reviews on another site, figured I'd chime in here.

In your comment in #21 you said - This episode's ultimatum isn't the first one Sam has given Dean. Last season, he put the terms of the boys working together as Dean severing his friendship with Benny. Sam's attitude to Benny was a complete contradiction to his usual attitude on monsters, including the one he showed in this episode.

In regards to the ultimatum in Torn and Frayed - yes, Sam did give Dean an ultimatum at the start of the episode, and Dean responded by walking out, which meant to me that he rejected that ultimatum. However, I think him severing things with Benny had nothing to do with that. In their conversation at the end of the episode, Dean told Sam that, whatever he decides, decide - both feet in, both feet out, anything else is what gets you killed. He really couldn't expect Sam to cut things off with Amelia (both feet in), and not do the same himself with Benny, who had proven to be a distraction. The fact that Sam didn't bring Benny or the ultimatum up at the end of the episode meant to me that Dean did this of his own volition, realizing that Benny was in fact distracting him from the Winchester "holy grail", closing the gates of hell.

And yes, of course Sam's attitude about Benny was OOC - it was born more out of jealousy and, to a some degree, Dean's secretiveness about his friendship with Benny.
To me, I saw Dean as thinking over Sam's ultimatum, because it went against his own set of values. But he knew Sam well enough to know he meant what he said. I saw Sam never taking back his words as his ultimatum standing. Our mileage will probably vary on this. (-:
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 16:28
Quoting anonymousN:
Quote:
I think Sam now has a skewed interpretation of Dean supporting his sacrifice in Swan Song. He seems to now think that sacrifice is all he's good for, if he's in the fight at all.
I am sorry i don't understand how Swan song matters here.
Sorry, I probably wasn't clear -- too many ideas coming out at once. When Sam told Dean family was the reason for all the things that have gone wrong between them, I took that to refer to their history since they started hunting together. And I think Dean's sense of family and his bond with Sam is what helped both boys stop the Apocalypse and is the one thing neither heaven nor hell took into account. I think Sam and Dean made a lot of mistakes, but Dean's feeling that family matters most of all wasn't one of them.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 16:28
Quote:
Quote:
I think Sam now has a skewed interpretation of Dean supporting his sacrifice in Swan Song. He seems to now think that sacrifice is all he's good for, if he's in the fight at all.
I am sorry i don't understand how Swan song matters here.
Sorry, I probably wasn't clear -- too many ideas coming out at once. When Sam told Dean family was the reason for all the things that have gone wrong between them, I took that to refer to their history since they started hunting together. And I think Dean's sense of family and his bond with Sam is what helped both boys stop the Apocalypse and is the one thing neither heaven nor hell took into account. I think Sam and Dean made a lot of mistakes, but Dean's feeling that family matters most of all wasn't one of them.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-01-30 16:32
Quoting nappi815:
did you ever wonder why in citizen fang dean just didn't bring sam with him so sam can see for himself that benny was different? it would've solved everyone's doubts. dean always kept sam apart from benny. i always felt there were a couple of reasons for that.. one, dean didn't trust benny and if since he wasn't sure he didn't want to risk bringing sam. another reason has to do with dean's hypocrisy. benny was no different than amy.dean's speech to amy about killing someday because that's what she is. going behind sam's back. telling him he did what he couldn't. the only difference between amy and benny was that benny was dean's friend and amy was sam's. but that speech dean gave amy held just as true for benny. because dean owed benny. but you see sam owed amy. there is a hypocrisy there. a famous dean double standard. if sam found out that benny got out of purgatory because of a deal , because he basically blackmailed dean into it, then sam would've been able to strike back at dean when he claimed benny was the only one who never let him down. of course benny didn't let you down dean, you were his ticket out. it was a very convoluted situation imo. but the core of it was trust and sam's belief that dean trusted in a vampire more than he trusted in him....a skewed view. in fact, dean held out on sam in regards to benny for the opposite reason. he didn't trust in him the way he laid claim that he did.

again though, old dead horse that i will no longer beat. s9, moving on. :lol:


Hi Nappi815 - we agree on most things but we have a slight disagreement on this one. Amy had to go - she was killing people. Granted, she was only doing it to save her son, and her victims were lowlifes (drug dealers, etc.). Sam was really in no shape to make that judgement call, with his hallucifernatio ns, etc. Yes, Dean was absolutely wrong in lying about it, but Amy really did have to go.

Benny was different in that it was never established that he fed from live victims after coming back from purgatory. On the DVDs, there was an interesting scene cut from Taxi Driver, just before Dean lops his head off, where Dean asks Benny if he has been feeding live. Benny responded, in effect, that it was better not to ask that question. I guess they took it out in case they wanted to bring Benny back in a future episode but I'm wondering if people's perception of Benny would have changed if they left it in? Personally, I wish they left it in; always like when the show uses as many shades of gray as possible.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-01-30 16:32
Quote:
did you ever wonder why in citizen fang dean just didn't bring sam with him so sam can see for himself that benny was different? it would've solved everyone's doubts. dean always kept sam apart from benny. i always felt there were a couple of reasons for that.. one, dean didn't trust benny and if since he wasn't sure he didn't want to risk bringing sam. another reason has to do with dean's hypocrisy. benny was no different than amy.dean's speech to amy about killing someday because that's what she is. going behind sam's back. telling him he did what he couldn't. the only difference between amy and benny was that benny was dean's friend and amy was sam's. but that speech dean gave amy held just as true for benny. because dean owed benny. but you see sam owed amy. there is a hypocrisy there. a famous dean double standard. if sam found out that benny got out of purgatory because of a deal , because he basically blackmailed dean into it, then sam would've been able to strike back at dean when he claimed benny was the only one who never let him down. of course benny didn't let you down dean, you were his ticket out. it was a very convoluted situation imo. but the core of it was trust and sam's belief that dean trusted in a vampire more than he trusted in him....a skewed view. in fact, dean held out on sam in regards to benny for the opposite reason. he didn't trust in him the way he laid claim that he did.

again though, old dead horse that i will no longer beat. s9, moving on. :lol:
Hi Nappi815 - we agree on most things but we have a slight disagreement on this one. Amy had to go - she was killing people. Granted, she was only doing it to save her son, and her victims were lowlifes (drug dealers, etc.). Sam was really in no shape to make that judgement call, with his hallucifernatio ns, etc. Yes, Dean was absolutely wrong in lying about it, but Amy really did have to go.

Benny was different in that it was never established that he fed from live victims after coming back from purgatory. On the DVDs, there was an interesting scene cut from Taxi Driver, just before Dean lops his head off, where Dean asks Benny if he has been feeding live. Benny responded, in effect, that it was better not to ask that question. I guess they took it out in case they wanted to bring Benny back in a future episode but I'm wondering if people's perception of Benny would have changed if they left it in? Personally, I wish they left it in; always like when the show uses as many shades of gray as possible.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-01-30 16:36
Quoting Gerry:
To me, I saw Dean as thinking over Sam's ultimatum, because it went against his own set of values. But he knew Sam well enough to know he meant what he said. I saw Sam never taking back his words as his ultimatum standing. Our mileage will probably vary on this. (-:


Hi Gerry- fair enough, just different interpretations . Enjoy your reviews, though. A very welcome addition to the site.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-01-30 16:36
Quote:
To me, I saw Dean as thinking over Sam's ultimatum, because it went against his own set of values. But he knew Sam well enough to know he meant what he said. I saw Sam never taking back his words as his ultimatum standing. Our mileage will probably vary on this. (-:
Hi Gerry- fair enough, just different interpretations . Enjoy your reviews, though. A very welcome addition to the site.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 16:37
Quoting nappi815:

did you ever wonder why in citizen fang dean just didn't bring sam with him so sam can see for himself that benny was different?


I thought it was because he knew Sam was not neutral about Benny. Sam had already made his feelings on Dean not having already killed Benny clear. Dean wanted to make sure Benny got a fair shake.

But as you say, this is water under the bridge now. (-:. We'll see what shakes out in the rest of the season.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 16:37
Quote:

did you ever wonder why in citizen fang dean just didn't bring sam with him so sam can see for himself that benny was different?
I thought it was because he knew Sam was not neutral about Benny. Sam had already made his feelings on Dean not having already killed Benny clear. Dean wanted to make sure Benny got a fair shake.

But as you say, this is water under the bridge now. (-:. We'll see what shakes out in the rest of the season.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 16:39
Quoting njspnfan:
Quoting Gerry:
To me, I saw Dean as thinking over Sam's ultimatum, because it went against his own set of values. But he knew Sam well enough to know he meant what he said. I saw Sam never taking back his words as his ultimatum standing. Our mileage will probably vary on this. (-:



Hi Gerry- fair enough, just different interpretations. Enjoy your reviews, though. A very welcome addition to the site.


Thanks, njspnfan! Your comments are just as welcome. Supernatural does lend itself to different viewpoints, I think because the relationships are so realistic, we can all find places that just resonate really strongly.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 16:39
Quote:
Quote:
To me, I saw Dean as thinking over Sam's ultimatum, because it went against his own set of values. But he knew Sam well enough to know he meant what he said. I saw Sam never taking back his words as his ultimatum standing. Our mileage will probably vary on this. (-:
Hi Gerry- fair enough, just different interpretations. Enjoy your reviews, though. A very welcome addition to the site.
Thanks, njspnfan! Your comments are just as welcome. Supernatural does lend itself to different viewpoints, I think because the relationships are so realistic, we can all find places that just resonate really strongly.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-01-30 16:51
Hi Gerry

Ah, too much room for interpretation, especially given the writing in S8 which seemed very inconsistent & OOC for both Sam and Dean.

So I think we'll have to agree to disagree on Dean's illogical (to me) insistence that Sam hunts when he can't handle the idea that Sam might die before him. Hunting is incredibly precarious and even if The Trials themselves hadn't killed Sam a thousand other things might given their adventures. Anyhoo...

Quoting Gerry:

I am not for one minute arguing Dean's actions were not hurtful to Sam, just that the lying is perhaps the real sticking point, not the saving of his life.


On this I disagree. I don't think either lying OR saving Sam's life was the real problem. I think was the angel possession that was out and out wrong from Sam's POV. Dean was right to get Sam medical treatment and I can't see any reason why Sam would have a problem with that. BUT medical treatment does not risk anyone dying.

Tricking Sam into being possessed by an effectively UNKNOWN angel - who might even have turned out to be Lucifer for all Dean knew - was incredibly dangerous to other people and might possibly have restarted the Apocalypse. OK, so Dean panicked and I don't blame him really, but I can see why Sam would be angry at Dean for taking that risk for the life of ONE person (no matter how important that person is to Dean).

BTW, Sam is also as crazy as a basket full of crazy things too. I love my crazy Winchester boys :D
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-01-30 16:51
Hi Gerry

Ah, too much room for interpretation, especially given the writing in S8 which seemed very inconsistent & OOC for both Sam and Dean.

So I think we'll have to agree to disagree on Dean's illogical (to me) insistence that Sam hunts when he can't handle the idea that Sam might die before him. Hunting is incredibly precarious and even if The Trials themselves hadn't killed Sam a thousand other things might given their adventures. Anyhoo...

Quote:

I am not for one minute arguing Dean's actions were not hurtful to Sam, just that the lying is perhaps the real sticking point, not the saving of his life.
On this I disagree. I don't think either lying OR saving Sam's life was the real problem. I think was the angel possession that was out and out wrong from Sam's POV. Dean was right to get Sam medical treatment and I can't see any reason why Sam would have a problem with that. BUT medical treatment does not risk anyone dying.

Tricking Sam into being possessed by an effectively UNKNOWN angel - who might even have turned out to be Lucifer for all Dean knew - was incredibly dangerous to other people and might possibly have restarted the Apocalypse. OK, so Dean panicked and I don't blame him really, but I can see why Sam would be angry at Dean for taking that risk for the life of ONE person (no matter how important that person is to Dean).

BTW, Sam is also as crazy as a basket full of crazy things too. I love my crazy Winchester boys :D
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 16:57
Quoting nappi815:
gerry i totally get your opinion and respect it and i promise i will no longer beat up on this dead horse, but just one last thing. i've gone on so often in so many posts regarding this in s8 and i truly am done after this one last statement. as i respectfully agree to disagree with you on this matter, i will say this much, one last time. i honestly believe sam believed dean was truly dead. i think after everything that has happened to sam in s6 and s7, sam watching dean vanish in a blast of dick roman was more than his brain could emotionally handle. it wasn't only dean that disappeared, it was cas. crowley made it very clear to sam that dean shouldn't have been that close and had sam believing that dean was truly dead. based on what i've seen in sacrifice, along with the many clues that were given to us during the course of the season, it was very clear that something happened to sam. when he stated to amelia that he imploded and ran, he wasn't exaggerating. garth made reference that something terrible must've happened if sam didn't look for dean. meg questioned sam's sanity? you hit a dog and stopped? why would he hit a dog? why would he stop hunting? bobby told sam they were really off the rails. and in sacrifice, sam broke down and basically admitted to letting dean down yet again, failing him yet again. so no, i'm sorry but i don't believe for one second that sam just didn't look for dean. when sam spoke of honoring the deal, it was a deal made if they died.and you are right, sam did the mature thing. sam believed dean died and he honored the deal and did nothing about it. he broke the vicious cycle that dean had so often talked about. sam accepted dean's death but he didn't handle it well. . as for sam's line to bobby about the boys having a deal, well as i recall, bobby had no clue at all what really happened and sam just let bobby rail on him without even an attempt to explain himself. another example of sam feeling he deserves to be punished. he failed, he deserves whatever he has coming. so he takes it.

ok done now. won't go rehashing s8 anymore. it's honestly water under the bridge and it's not my place to try to change people's opinions on how they perceived it. i most definitely agree to disagree with you on this matter, but with the utmost respect ;-) .


We do see things differently, but that's totally OK. We can disagree with respect. (-: I find I take away something from every exchange of viewpoints, so I'm happy to read different interpretations . You expressed yourself very well and I understand where you are coming from.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 16:57
Quote:
gerry i totally get your opinion and respect it and i promise i will no longer beat up on this dead horse, but just one last thing. i've gone on so often in so many posts regarding this in s8 and i truly am done after this one last statement. as i respectfully agree to disagree with you on this matter, i will say this much, one last time. i honestly believe sam believed dean was truly dead. i think after everything that has happened to sam in s6 and s7, sam watching dean vanish in a blast of dick roman was more than his brain could emotionally handle. it wasn't only dean that disappeared, it was cas. crowley made it very clear to sam that dean shouldn't have been that close and had sam believing that dean was truly dead. based on what i've seen in sacrifice, along with the many clues that were given to us during the course of the season, it was very clear that something happened to sam. when he stated to amelia that he imploded and ran, he wasn't exaggerating. garth made reference that something terrible must've happened if sam didn't look for dean. meg questioned sam's sanity? you hit a dog and stopped? why would he hit a dog? why would he stop hunting? bobby told sam they were really off the rails. and in sacrifice, sam broke down and basically admitted to letting dean down yet again, failing him yet again. so no, i'm sorry but i don't believe for one second that sam just didn't look for dean. when sam spoke of honoring the deal, it was a deal made if they died.and you are right, sam did the mature thing. sam believed dean died and he honored the deal and did nothing about it. he broke the vicious cycle that dean had so often talked about. sam accepted dean's death but he didn't handle it well. . as for sam's line to bobby about the boys having a deal, well as i recall, bobby had no clue at all what really happened and sam just let bobby rail on him without even an attempt to explain himself. another example of sam feeling he deserves to be punished. he failed, he deserves whatever he has coming. so he takes it.

ok done now. won't go rehashing s8 anymore. it's honestly water under the bridge and it's not my place to try to change people's opinions on how they perceived it. i most definitely agree to disagree with you on this matter, but with the utmost respect ;-) .

We do see things differently, but that's totally OK. We can disagree with respect. (-: I find I take away something from every exchange of viewpoints, so I'm happy to read different interpretations . You expressed yourself very well and I understand where you are coming from.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 17:04
Quoting Manzanita Crow:
Hi Gerry
Quoting Gerry:

I am not for one minute arguing Dean's actions were not hurtful to Sam, just that the lying is perhaps the real sticking point, not the saving of his life.


On this I disagree. I don't think either lying OR saving Sam's life was the real problem. I think was the angel possession that was out and out wrong from Sam's POV. Dean was right to get Sam medical treatment and I can't see any reason why Sam would have a problem with that. BUT medical treatment does not risk anyone dying.

Tricking Sam into being possessed by an effectively UNKNOWN angel - who might even have turned out to be Lucifer for all Dean knew - was incredibly dangerous to other people and might possibly have restarted the Apocalypse. OK, so Dean panicked and I don't blame him really, but I can see why Sam would be angry at Dean for taking that risk for the life of ONE person (no matter how important that person is to Dean).

BTW, Sam is also as crazy as a basket full of crazy things too. I love my crazy Winchester boys :D


Yep, both boys have their issues. (-:

I should clarify that when I say saving Sam's life, I am referring to the possession, not taking Sam to the hospital. The possession was what Dean had to decide to do or not do.

Also, without saying there were no issues with what Dean did, he did have Cas's opinion that Ezekiel was a good guy. He didn't make his decision completely blind and he did care who Ezekiel was. But he had very little time to decide what to do, so he went with what he had at the time. It was still possession against Sam's will, so the consent issues are still there.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 17:04
Quote:
Hi Gerry
Quote:

I am not for one minute arguing Dean's actions were not hurtful to Sam, just that the lying is perhaps the real sticking point, not the saving of his life.
On this I disagree. I don't think either lying OR saving Sam's life was the real problem. I think was the angel possession that was out and out wrong from Sam's POV. Dean was right to get Sam medical treatment and I can't see any reason why Sam would have a problem with that. BUT medical treatment does not risk anyone dying.

Tricking Sam into being possessed by an effectively UNKNOWN angel - who might even have turned out to be Lucifer for all Dean knew - was incredibly dangerous to other people and might possibly have restarted the Apocalypse. OK, so Dean panicked and I don't blame him really, but I can see why Sam would be angry at Dean for taking that risk for the life of ONE person (no matter how important that person is to Dean).

BTW, Sam is also as crazy as a basket full of crazy things too. I love my crazy Winchester boys :D
Yep, both boys have their issues. (-:

I should clarify that when I say saving Sam's life, I am referring to the possession, not taking Sam to the hospital. The possession was what Dean had to decide to do or not do.

Also, without saying there were no issues with what Dean did, he did have Cas's opinion that Ezekiel was a good guy. He didn't make his decision completely blind and he did care who Ezekiel was. But he had very little time to decide what to do, so he went with what he had at the time. It was still possession against Sam's will, so the consent issues are still there.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-01-30 17:09
Quoting Gerry:

(Dean) did have Cas's opinion that Ezekiel was a good guy. He didn't make his decision completely blind and he did care who Ezekiel was.


Yes, Dean had Cas' opinion on Ezekiel over the phone. He did not have confirmation from Cas that the unknown angel was who he said he was. So he was effectively an unknown angel.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-01-30 17:09
Quote:

(Dean) did have Cas's opinion that Ezekiel was a good guy. He didn't make his decision completely blind and he did care who Ezekiel was.
Yes, Dean had Cas' opinion on Ezekiel over the phone. He did not have confirmation from Cas that the unknown angel was who he said he was. So he was effectively an unknown angel.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-30 17:13
Quoting Gerry:
Quoting nappi815:

did you ever wonder why in citizen fang dean just didn't bring sam with him so sam can see for himself that benny was different?


I thought it was because he knew Sam was not neutral about Benny. Sam had already made his feelings on Dean not having already killed Benny clear. Dean wanted to make sure Benny got a fair shake.

But as you say, this is water under the bridge now. (-:. We'll see what shakes out in the rest of the season.

sam made those feelings clear out of hurt and pain, a comment made after dean's rant. plenty of episodes had passed since then before sam got the call about benny from martin.
the very fact that sam confessed to having benny tailed because any good hunter worth his salt would do the same thing, given the fact of what benny is and where he came from, only confirms, at least the way i view it, that dean already knew that sam wouldn't kill benny. if sam was going to kill benny, he knows that sam could've already. sam never had to reveal to dean that he was having benny tailed. hell he could've just killed benny without even tailing him in the first place and never told dean about it. but he only was watching benny and he told dean exactly what he was up to. if sam wanted benny dead without reason, he would've and could've killed him at any time. during citizen fang, sam gave dean the time he asked for. in all honesty, dean could've subdued sam if sam went with him and sam made a play at benny. so i'm sorry, but i don't buy that for a new york minute. another reason i don't buy that. taxi driver. dean had absolutely no doubt that sam would bring benny out of purgatory. he flat out told benny sam will bring you out like i did. benny replied, the brother who wants to kill me? dean's reply was that he ride out with sam. dean didn't doubt sam for a single moment. and he was right...sam did try to get benny out. i'm sorry, but in no way did i ever believe for a second that dean was truly concerned that sam would waste benny if dean was there with him. sam wouldnt' kill someone without just cause. dean knows his brother well enough to know that. sam was angry and said what he said after dean's rant. he was hurt, but not homicidal. sam would never kill anyone unless it was necessary, not even benny and nobody knows that better than dean.

i never believed it was about protecting benny. i never even believed it was about protecting sam. i still think it was dean protecting himself. in this instance i still say he kept sam and benny apart because he didn't want sam to learn the truth about the deal dean made with benny in the first place. if sam found out the truth, then sam would know that the only reason benny didn't let dean down was because he needed dean. to tell you the truth, i always felt that dean built benny up because he did something he would never believe he would do. he befriended a monster. he put his trust in a monster. in a way in purgatory, he kind of became one himself. it was the only thing he could do to survive.


you are right gerry. this is the past. and let me apologize to you as i never was fond of benny and i didn't like that whole part of the storyline. though i met ty olsson at a con. sat next to him at the party and he's adorable. but the subject was always a touchy one for me, and i can kick myself for getting bothered by it. i should keep my opinions to myself regarding benny. so i'm sorry again if at any point in this post you feel as though i may have been out of line. it's never my intention. i'm often quite positive. i always felt i'd have liked benny more had he been shown to be wicked. i did like him as eli. i guess i would've found that story more interesting. i'm just being a whiner right now....waa waa....i give you permission to call the waambulance on my ass. :lol: like you, i'm more interested in the present. i have no doubt that these two brothers will come together and resolve their issues. it's a long time coming, but it will so be worth the wait. :lol:
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-30 17:13
Quote:
Quote:

did you ever wonder why in citizen fang dean just didn't bring sam with him so sam can see for himself that benny was different?
I thought it was because he knew Sam was not neutral about Benny. Sam had already made his feelings on Dean not having already killed Benny clear. Dean wanted to make sure Benny got a fair shake.

But as you say, this is water under the bridge now. (-:. We'll see what shakes out in the rest of the season.
sam made those feelings clear out of hurt and pain, a comment made after dean's rant. plenty of episodes had passed since then before sam got the call about benny from martin.
the very fact that sam confessed to having benny tailed because any good hunter worth his salt would do the same thing, given the fact of what benny is and where he came from, only confirms, at least the way i view it, that dean already knew that sam wouldn't kill benny. if sam was going to kill benny, he knows that sam could've already. sam never had to reveal to dean that he was having benny tailed. hell he could've just killed benny without even tailing him in the first place and never told dean about it. but he only was watching benny and he told dean exactly what he was up to. if sam wanted benny dead without reason, he would've and could've killed him at any time. during citizen fang, sam gave dean the time he asked for. in all honesty, dean could've subdued sam if sam went with him and sam made a play at benny. so i'm sorry, but i don't buy that for a new york minute. another reason i don't buy that. taxi driver. dean had absolutely no doubt that sam would bring benny out of purgatory. he flat out told benny sam will bring you out like i did. benny replied, the brother who wants to kill me? dean's reply was that he ride out with sam. dean didn't doubt sam for a single moment. and he was right...sam did try to get benny out. i'm sorry, but in no way did i ever believe for a second that dean was truly concerned that sam would waste benny if dean was there with him. sam wouldnt' kill someone without just cause. dean knows his brother well enough to know that. sam was angry and said what he said after dean's rant. he was hurt, but not homicidal. sam would never kill anyone unless it was necessary, not even benny and nobody knows that better than dean.

i never believed it was about protecting benny. i never even believed it was about protecting sam. i still think it was dean protecting himself. in this instance i still say he kept sam and benny apart because he didn't want sam to learn the truth about the deal dean made with benny in the first place. if sam found out the truth, then sam would know that the only reason benny didn't let dean down was because he needed dean. to tell you the truth, i always felt that dean built benny up because he did something he would never believe he would do. he befriended a monster. he put his trust in a monster. in a way in purgatory, he kind of became one himself. it was the only thing he could do to survive.


you are right gerry. this is the past. and let me apologize to you as i never was fond of benny and i didn't like that whole part of the storyline. though i met ty olsson at a con. sat next to him at the party and he's adorable. but the subject was always a touchy one for me, and i can kick myself for getting bothered by it. i should keep my opinions to myself regarding benny. so i'm sorry again if at any point in this post you feel as though i may have been out of line. it's never my intention. i'm often quite positive. i always felt i'd have liked benny more had he been shown to be wicked. i did like him as eli. i guess i would've found that story more interesting. i'm just being a whiner right now....waa waa....i give you permission to call the waambulance on my ass. :lol: like you, i'm more interested in the present. i have no doubt that these two brothers will come together and resolve their issues. it's a long time coming, but it will so be worth the wait. :lol:
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 17:14
Quoting Manzanita Crow:
Quoting Gerry:

(Dean) did have Cas's opinion that Ezekiel was a good guy. He didn't make his decision completely blind and he did care who Ezekiel was.


Yes, Dean had Cas' opinion on Ezekiel over the phone. He did not have confirmation from Cas that the unknown angel was who he said he was. So he was effectively an unknown angel.


In 20/20 hindsight yes, :-)
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-30 17:14
Quote:
Quote:

(Dean) did have Cas's opinion that Ezekiel was a good guy. He didn't make his decision completely blind and he did care who Ezekiel was.
Yes, Dean had Cas' opinion on Ezekiel over the phone. He did not have confirmation from Cas that the unknown angel was who he said he was. So he was effectively an unknown angel.

In 20/20 hindsight yes, :-)
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-01-30 17:23
Quoting Gerry:
In 20/20 hindsight yes, :-)

Agreed, but I can see why Sam might want Dean to have a little more foresight too, if Sam is going to hunt with him.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-01-30 17:23
Quote:
In 20/20 hindsight yes, :-)
Agreed, but I can see why Sam might want Dean to have a little more foresight too, if Sam is going to hunt with him.
Tara
# Tara 2014-01-30 19:43
Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU for writing this! This is exactly how I felt after watching this. Especially this part: "I understand Sam’s anger about Gadreel. Dean’s actions were a breach of trust. But Sam made his own decision about the gates of Hell. Dean didn’t force him to do anything. And Sam’s reasoning about completing the trials at the expense of his life was he just let people down over and over, so why not sacrifice himself. Is that supposed to be healthy? Mature?"
That scene in "Sacrifice" was my favorite scene in the entire series. After it aired I watched it over and over. It still moves me to tears. But after Tuesday night, I felt like somebody tore my favorite page out of the story. Seriously, thank you for writing this. It's pretty much everything I wanted to vent, but wasn't even sure how to start.
Tara
# Tara 2014-01-30 19:43
Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU for writing this! This is exactly how I felt after watching this. Especially this part: "I understand Sam’s anger about Gadreel. Dean’s actions were a breach of trust. But Sam made his own decision about the gates of Hell. Dean didn’t force him to do anything. And Sam’s reasoning about completing the trials at the expense of his life was he just let people down over and over, so why not sacrifice himself. Is that supposed to be healthy? Mature?"
That scene in "Sacrifice" was my favorite scene in the entire series. After it aired I watched it over and over. It still moves me to tears. But after Tuesday night, I felt like somebody tore my favorite page out of the story. Seriously, thank you for writing this. It's pretty much everything I wanted to vent, but wasn't even sure how to start.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-01-30 22:42
There seems to be a sentiment that Sam's words cheapened the Church scene in 8.23. But, from Sam's perspective, maybe Dean's actions in 9.01 cheapened what Dean said in 8.23 and that's why he brought it up?

The whole church scene was undeniably about trust, so from Sam's POV, Dean broke the trust right after that, so now Sam is questioning everything. The more I think about it, maybe Sam is questioning the whole co-dependency thing: the line that Dean crossed to keep him alive, but also his own dependency on Dean, where Sam will do whatever Dean asks of him, whether it's closing the gates of Hell, or saying yes to a plan he knows nothing about.

All of that was based on trust, so now Sam is re-evaluating everything.

I don't understand why there's so much anger at Sam right now. Dean acted about the same in season 5, and if I remember, the general sentiment was that they felt for Sam, but he had to earn Dean's trust back. What's different now?
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-01-30 22:42
There seems to be a sentiment that Sam's words cheapened the Church scene in 8.23. But, from Sam's perspective, maybe Dean's actions in 9.01 cheapened what Dean said in 8.23 and that's why he brought it up?

The whole church scene was undeniably about trust, so from Sam's POV, Dean broke the trust right after that, so now Sam is questioning everything. The more I think about it, maybe Sam is questioning the whole co-dependency thing: the line that Dean crossed to keep him alive, but also his own dependency on Dean, where Sam will do whatever Dean asks of him, whether it's closing the gates of Hell, or saying yes to a plan he knows nothing about.

All of that was based on trust, so now Sam is re-evaluating everything.

I don't understand why there's so much anger at Sam right now. Dean acted about the same in season 5, and if I remember, the general sentiment was that they felt for Sam, but he had to earn Dean's trust back. What's different now?
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-01-31 02:33
Quoting JuliaG:
There seems to be a sentiment that Sam's words cheapened the Church scene in 8.23. But, from Sam's perspective, maybe Dean's actions in 9.01 cheapened what Dean said in 8.23 and that's why he brought it up?

The whole church scene was undeniably about trust, so from Sam's POV, Dean broke the trust right after that, so now Sam is questioning everything. The more I think about it, maybe Sam is questioning the whole co-dependency thing: the line that Dean crossed to keep him alive, but also his own dependency on Dean, where Sam will do whatever Dean asks of him, whether it's closing the gates of Hell, or saying yes to a plan he knows nothing about.

All of that was based on trust, so now Sam is re-evaluating everything.

I don't understand why there's so much anger at Sam right now. Dean acted about the same in season 5, and if I remember, the general sentiment was that they felt for Sam, but he had to earn Dean's trust back. What's different now?


That it was Sam and not Dean voicing their feelings . I understand Sam's words hurt they were not pleasant but then this whole situation has been ugly from the start .

I thought listening to Sam that a lot of it comes from what was said in the Church and Dean;s subsequent action almost straight after .A line was crossed with what Dean did and if Sam cannot stand up for himself and try and protect himself after what was done to him then when should he ? ,
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-01-31 02:33
Quote:
There seems to be a sentiment that Sam's words cheapened the Church scene in 8.23. But, from Sam's perspective, maybe Dean's actions in 9.01 cheapened what Dean said in 8.23 and that's why he brought it up?

The whole church scene was undeniably about trust, so from Sam's POV, Dean broke the trust right after that, so now Sam is questioning everything. The more I think about it, maybe Sam is questioning the whole co-dependency thing: the line that Dean crossed to keep him alive, but also his own dependency on Dean, where Sam will do whatever Dean asks of him, whether it's closing the gates of Hell, or saying yes to a plan he knows nothing about.

All of that was based on trust, so now Sam is re-evaluating everything.

I don't understand why there's so much anger at Sam right now. Dean acted about the same in season 5, and if I remember, the general sentiment was that they felt for Sam, but he had to earn Dean's trust back. What's different now?
That it was Sam and not Dean voicing their feelings . I understand Sam's words hurt they were not pleasant but then this whole situation has been ugly from the start .

I thought listening to Sam that a lot of it comes from what was said in the Church and Dean;s subsequent action almost straight after .A line was crossed with what Dean did and if Sam cannot stand up for himself and try and protect himself after what was done to him then when should he ? ,
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 10:17
Excellent review. I agree a lot with your interpretation of the brotherly mindsets. I wasn't a fan of the nuts and bolts of the episode. I found the story building to be weak.

(Edited by Alice - I honestly tried to keep a lot of the rest of this, because I hate editing large chunks of commentary. However, there is just way too much negativity in your tone and character bashing. I'll allow you to make your point again if you wish, but next time keep your scathing attitude at a minimum. I'm afraid you don't understand what "constructive" criticism and civil discussion is).
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 10:17
Excellent review. I agree a lot with your interpretation of the brotherly mindsets. I wasn't a fan of the nuts and bolts of the episode. I found the story building to be weak.

(Edited by Alice - I honestly tried to keep a lot of the rest of this, because I hate editing large chunks of commentary. However, there is just way too much negativity in your tone and character bashing. I'll allow you to make your point again if you wish, but next time keep your scathing attitude at a minimum. I'm afraid you don't understand what "constructive" criticism and civil discussion is).
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-31 10:51
Hey guys, I wanted to just make a sort of general post about how we talk about the characters. As you can tell, I had my own issues with some of what happened in this episode and past seasons. But please try to keep character critiques constructive. It's easy for a critique to sound like character bashing, and that's the last thing I want my reviews to either do or generate. I love all the characters, and my issues have more to do with how the writers are handling certain things.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-31 10:51
Hey guys, I wanted to just make a sort of general post about how we talk about the characters. As you can tell, I had my own issues with some of what happened in this episode and past seasons. But please try to keep character critiques constructive. It's easy for a critique to sound like character bashing, and that's the last thing I want my reviews to either do or generate. I love all the characters, and my issues have more to do with how the writers are handling certain things.
ThisOldBag
# ThisOldBag 2014-01-31 11:02
I like that some are saying that Sam's cryptic speech in this ep actually cheapens the church scene in Sacrifice. I can say that as the story progresses into the ninth season, I can go back and look at prior episodes and seasons with a new point of view...good or bad.

I always loved fourth season Sam, he was so strong and independent and I loved that he was finally able to act and react independent of what Dean would do. But it turned out all wrong, and Sam was thrown back in to the guilty, submissive role because of his choices. Parts of that season that I truly loved on first watch, are quite difficult now. But that is part of why I love the show the way I do.

I am not much on hard-coded canon, I think canon is written when the story ends. I believe what I SEE, not what someone says or even remembers, is canon. By that definition, I would not blink if it were discovered that Dean did not break the first seal, that he WAS the first seal, raised from hell just as he had started becoming a demon, by Castiel. What it would change in POV is that Castiel had lied more often than he had admitted and I would look to those episodes differently, but they would not be cheapened by the revelation nor would it bash canon.

The beauty of Sacrifice is not sacrificed based upon a conversation in Sharp Teeth and I love the way this show leaves so much to our own interpretation. True, not everything has been written well, there have been badly missed opportunities in past seasons and there are certain items that have been calling out for a better explanation or resolution that we will likely never see resolved, but IMO it is still the best story on TV now and has been for a long time.

True, maybe Sam was too cryptic, but I am pleased he didn't just acquiesce and jump in the car with a "you're right and I understand" because that might have cheapened the dialog in Sacrifice (too me). I think (hope) he understands that he made the choice to live and not close hell when he was so close. I also think he understands that he made the choice to trust Dean had a plan to save his life and not ask what that was. I do believe he was saying that he did both of those things because Dean was "family", and the result is Crowley is alive, Abbaddon is not burning in hell and Kevin is dead. How much more wrong could it have gone? (Well, with this show it could be much worse I guess.)

This season has just been too wonderful for me to bash, but I do enjoy the pain and the emotions it puts me thru. I do hope things are resolved between them by season's end and I am still hoping for more scenes with Dean knocked out and tied up, while Sam does the rescue thing.
ThisOldBag
# ThisOldBag 2014-01-31 11:02
I like that some are saying that Sam's cryptic speech in this ep actually cheapens the church scene in Sacrifice. I can say that as the story progresses into the ninth season, I can go back and look at prior episodes and seasons with a new point of view...good or bad.

I always loved fourth season Sam, he was so strong and independent and I loved that he was finally able to act and react independent of what Dean would do. But it turned out all wrong, and Sam was thrown back in to the guilty, submissive role because of his choices. Parts of that season that I truly loved on first watch, are quite difficult now. But that is part of why I love the show the way I do.

I am not much on hard-coded canon, I think canon is written when the story ends. I believe what I SEE, not what someone says or even remembers, is canon. By that definition, I would not blink if it were discovered that Dean did not break the first seal, that he WAS the first seal, raised from hell just as he had started becoming a demon, by Castiel. What it would change in POV is that Castiel had lied more often than he had admitted and I would look to those episodes differently, but they would not be cheapened by the revelation nor would it bash canon.

The beauty of Sacrifice is not sacrificed based upon a conversation in Sharp Teeth and I love the way this show leaves so much to our own interpretation. True, not everything has been written well, there have been badly missed opportunities in past seasons and there are certain items that have been calling out for a better explanation or resolution that we will likely never see resolved, but IMO it is still the best story on TV now and has been for a long time.

True, maybe Sam was too cryptic, but I am pleased he didn't just acquiesce and jump in the car with a "you're right and I understand" because that might have cheapened the dialog in Sacrifice (too me). I think (hope) he understands that he made the choice to live and not close hell when he was so close. I also think he understands that he made the choice to trust Dean had a plan to save his life and not ask what that was. I do believe he was saying that he did both of those things because Dean was "family", and the result is Crowley is alive, Abbaddon is not burning in hell and Kevin is dead. How much more wrong could it have gone? (Well, with this show it could be much worse I guess.)

This season has just been too wonderful for me to bash, but I do enjoy the pain and the emotions it puts me thru. I do hope things are resolved between them by season's end and I am still hoping for more scenes with Dean knocked out and tied up, while Sam does the rescue thing.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-31 11:10
(Edited by Alice - you didn't say anything wrong, but I've edited the post you were addressing. Your comment without editing addresses something that isn't there!).

sam's initial reaction of benny was totally understandable and acceptable from both a hunter's pov and a brothers. dean had been giving sam grief constantly for not looking even after sam explained to dean he thought he was dead. dean ignored sam's words and decided in the hotel room when they were talking, that sam left hunting because of a girl. sam had explained to dean that he stopped hunting before he met her. dean, in his own anger, imagined sam living a normal life of happiness, seemingly forgetting about everyone including him. that was never the case. sam didn't live a happy normal life when he thought his brother was dead. he ran away from the life he believed took his entire family. mom, dad, jess, bobby, cas and most importantly, the one that mattered most, his brother. so yes. sam failed dean. he broke. he couldn't do it anymore. he ran from the life. he ran from the responsibility of searching for kevin because he simply couldn't do it. sam didn't stop saving people though did he? no, he saw a broken amelia and he tried to save her. he couldn't save the world, he couldn't save kevin because he was emotionally broken. but he could save this girl. he could help her with her loss. he could do for her what he wasn't able to do for his brother, he could try to save her. just wanted to point out the fact that contrary to what dean believed about sam, it just wasn't the case. i get that he was angry about so many other things that he couldn't see it. but let's really be fair to both characters here. they both made mistakes. they both were hurt by the other's skewed view and most of all they were both hurt of the skewed view they have of themselves.

back to sam's reaction. dean has been giving sam digs in every episode of the beginning of s8. his anger was based on his own misperception of sam, his own anger at himself because as we learned in alsok, dean felt he left cas behind. i still think dean transferred his own belief that he left cas behind, which was skewed as well, onto sam, believing that sam left dean behind, when in actually sam didn't. again for the umteenth time, sam told dean he thought he was dead. it's pretty hard to stay in the family business when it killed your whole family.

let's look at benny. benny used dean to get out of purgatory. he didn't let dean down in purgatory because if dean died, benny stayed stuck. so of course benny had dean's back. of course it's even possible that i believe a friendship formed. but when dean lays into sam about benny being more of a brother than sam has ever been, that's just dean being angry and hurtful and nothing more. dean didn't really mean what he said and i have no doubt that he even remembered what he said and brushed it off by saying he didnt' remember. the reason i totally believe he remembered what he said, because in sacrifice he specifically told sam, i know we've had our disappointments and i know i've said some junk that set you back on your heels....well the only words that really set sam back on his heels came from southern comfort...so i without any doubt in my heart believe that dean was again referring to those words in sacrifice. benny was dean's responsibilty once dean brought benny topside. he was literally his keeper. he didn't trust benny and he kept benny from sam for months. dean didn't really need sam? you just said he used sam's rant as a distraction, so maybe just maybe dean was feeling guilty about keeping from sam and brought him on the case, but at the same time he knew he'd be pissed and he knew he'd be angry and he used sam too. not such a saintly act if you ask me. as you stated yourself, dean pretty much knew sam would be upset about meeting benny, probably for the same reason dean would've been pissed off. benny is a vampire from purgatory now on earth and dean lied about him for months before telling sam and not only that, but was constantly making sam feel like crap all the while lying to sam. lying...distrus t....pretty much the one thing that hurts sam the most...so i'm sorry but dean's anger brought about a cruelty in him and he took it out on sam...when i don't even think all the anger was at sam.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-31 11:10
(Edited by Alice - you didn't say anything wrong, but I've edited the post you were addressing. Your comment without editing addresses something that isn't there!).

sam's initial reaction of benny was totally understandable and acceptable from both a hunter's pov and a brothers. dean had been giving sam grief constantly for not looking even after sam explained to dean he thought he was dead. dean ignored sam's words and decided in the hotel room when they were talking, that sam left hunting because of a girl. sam had explained to dean that he stopped hunting before he met her. dean, in his own anger, imagined sam living a normal life of happiness, seemingly forgetting about everyone including him. that was never the case. sam didn't live a happy normal life when he thought his brother was dead. he ran away from the life he believed took his entire family. mom, dad, jess, bobby, cas and most importantly, the one that mattered most, his brother. so yes. sam failed dean. he broke. he couldn't do it anymore. he ran from the life. he ran from the responsibility of searching for kevin because he simply couldn't do it. sam didn't stop saving people though did he? no, he saw a broken amelia and he tried to save her. he couldn't save the world, he couldn't save kevin because he was emotionally broken. but he could save this girl. he could help her with her loss. he could do for her what he wasn't able to do for his brother, he could try to save her. just wanted to point out the fact that contrary to what dean believed about sam, it just wasn't the case. i get that he was angry about so many other things that he couldn't see it. but let's really be fair to both characters here. they both made mistakes. they both were hurt by the other's skewed view and most of all they were both hurt of the skewed view they have of themselves.

back to sam's reaction. dean has been giving sam digs in every episode of the beginning of s8. his anger was based on his own misperception of sam, his own anger at himself because as we learned in alsok, dean felt he left cas behind. i still think dean transferred his own belief that he left cas behind, which was skewed as well, onto sam, believing that sam left dean behind, when in actually sam didn't. again for the umteenth time, sam told dean he thought he was dead. it's pretty hard to stay in the family business when it killed your whole family.

let's look at benny. benny used dean to get out of purgatory. he didn't let dean down in purgatory because if dean died, benny stayed stuck. so of course benny had dean's back. of course it's even possible that i believe a friendship formed. but when dean lays into sam about benny being more of a brother than sam has ever been, that's just dean being angry and hurtful and nothing more. dean didn't really mean what he said and i have no doubt that he even remembered what he said and brushed it off by saying he didnt' remember. the reason i totally believe he remembered what he said, because in sacrifice he specifically told sam, i know we've had our disappointments and i know i've said some junk that set you back on your heels....well the only words that really set sam back on his heels came from southern comfort...so i without any doubt in my heart believe that dean was again referring to those words in sacrifice. benny was dean's responsibilty once dean brought benny topside. he was literally his keeper. he didn't trust benny and he kept benny from sam for months. dean didn't really need sam? you just said he used sam's rant as a distraction, so maybe just maybe dean was feeling guilty about keeping from sam and brought him on the case, but at the same time he knew he'd be pissed and he knew he'd be angry and he used sam too. not such a saintly act if you ask me. as you stated yourself, dean pretty much knew sam would be upset about meeting benny, probably for the same reason dean would've been pissed off. benny is a vampire from purgatory now on earth and dean lied about him for months before telling sam and not only that, but was constantly making sam feel like crap all the while lying to sam. lying...distrus t....pretty much the one thing that hurts sam the most...so i'm sorry but dean's anger brought about a cruelty in him and he took it out on sam...when i don't even think all the anger was at sam.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-31 11:23
Hi ThisOldBag! Thanks so much for reading and commenting. I agree with your point that canon is an evolving thing and we can learn new things which give us a different perspective. So true and we are not yet at the end of this season, so the story is far from told.

I do think, though, that changing the Sacrifice scene from one of connection between the boys after the separation of the first half of season 8 to one that is now emblematic of everything Sam wants to change is a huge change and one that drags all those season 8 issues back on the table. It's a very significant change to me and since I think early season 8 dealt with the core story of Supernatural - the boys' bond - Sam's words carry a lot of weight for me.

I've been very onboard this season, so I am with you on season nine having a lot of wonderful story telling, but I have also noticed the writers are taking another pass through the nature of the boys' bond and to me that goes straight to why I watch the show. I think the writers should be very wary about changing past touchstone scenes between the boys, because if you do that too often, not only do past scenes lose their power, so do upcoming ones. I have to be able to trust the writers are telling a story with a purpose and the scenes they give us are meaningful.

That's my take, but I think your points are also valid. My worries right now are more based on what may happen based on what I saw, not what I KNOW will happen. I'm still watching with bated breath! :lol:
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-31 11:23
Hi ThisOldBag! Thanks so much for reading and commenting. I agree with your point that canon is an evolving thing and we can learn new things which give us a different perspective. So true and we are not yet at the end of this season, so the story is far from told.

I do think, though, that changing the Sacrifice scene from one of connection between the boys after the separation of the first half of season 8 to one that is now emblematic of everything Sam wants to change is a huge change and one that drags all those season 8 issues back on the table. It's a very significant change to me and since I think early season 8 dealt with the core story of Supernatural - the boys' bond - Sam's words carry a lot of weight for me.

I've been very onboard this season, so I am with you on season nine having a lot of wonderful story telling, but I have also noticed the writers are taking another pass through the nature of the boys' bond and to me that goes straight to why I watch the show. I think the writers should be very wary about changing past touchstone scenes between the boys, because if you do that too often, not only do past scenes lose their power, so do upcoming ones. I have to be able to trust the writers are telling a story with a purpose and the scenes they give us are meaningful.

That's my take, but I think your points are also valid. My worries right now are more based on what may happen based on what I saw, not what I KNOW will happen. I'm still watching with bated breath! :lol:
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 11:24
Thanks Gerry.
It is wrong to bash another character to exonerate your favorite, rather than admit they are human and did something that can be considered questionable.

NAPPI if I recall yourself admitted to finding Benny boring and fast forwarded through his scenes... LOL so yeah your insight is about as far apart from me as one could get since I couldn't get enough of Benny and consider him the best friend and partner that Dean could have.
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 11:24
Thanks Gerry.
It is wrong to bash another character to exonerate your favorite, rather than admit they are human and did something that can be considered questionable.

NAPPI if I recall yourself admitted to finding Benny boring and fast forwarded through his scenes... LOL so yeah your insight is about as far apart from me as one could get since I couldn't get enough of Benny and consider him the best friend and partner that Dean could have.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-31 11:28
(Edited by Alice - this post is irrelevant to the topic).
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-31 11:28
(Edited by Alice - this post is irrelevant to the topic).
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-31 11:29
Quoting CASTIELs cat:
Thanks Gerry.
It is wrong to bash another character to exonerate your favorite, rather than admit they are human and did something that can be considered questionable.

NAPPING if I recall yourself admitted to finding Benny boring and fast forwarded through his scenes... LOL so yeah your insight is about as far apart from me as one could get since I couldn't get enough of Benny and consider him the best friend and partner that Dean could have.
But alas Benny does not think so.:(
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-31 11:29
Quote:
Thanks Gerry.
It is wrong to bash another character to exonerate your favorite, rather than admit they are human and did something that can be considered questionable.

NAPPING if I recall yourself admitted to finding Benny boring and fast forwarded through his scenes... LOL so yeah your insight is about as far apart from me as one could get since I couldn't get enough of Benny and consider him the best friend and partner that Dean could have.
But alas Benny does not think so.:(
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-31 11:37
(Edited by Alice - You really made some good points in here Nappi and don't take this as a reprimand, but it fuels the Sam vs. Dean debate that broke out here and I'm trying to get this discussion back on topic. If you'd like to take this to our "I'm Not Happy" thread, I did save the text of your original post.)
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-31 11:37
(Edited by Alice - You really made some good points in here Nappi and don't take this as a reprimand, but it fuels the Sam vs. Dean debate that broke out here and I'm trying to get this discussion back on topic. If you'd like to take this to our "I'm Not Happy" thread, I did save the text of your original post.)
Sandra K
# Sandra K 2014-01-31 11:39
How did Benny get involved? Did I miss something in the latest episode?
Sandra K
# Sandra K 2014-01-31 11:39
How did Benny get involved? Did I miss something in the latest episode?
ThisOldBag
# ThisOldBag 2014-01-31 11:40
Thanks Gerry. I do see your point and I agree that season's 8&9 are re-addressing what should have been better addressed in season 7. There was great opportunities missed in 7 and I do get the feeling that JC is trying to rework and redefine the brother's bond from scratch when he might have done better building on what SG had started. But I've just enjoyed this season so much thus far and I am looking forward to seeing how it all plays out in the next half. I did very much enjoy reading your review.
ThisOldBag
# ThisOldBag 2014-01-31 11:40
Thanks Gerry. I do see your point and I agree that season's 8&9 are re-addressing what should have been better addressed in season 7. There was great opportunities missed in 7 and I do get the feeling that JC is trying to rework and redefine the brother's bond from scratch when he might have done better building on what SG had started. But I've just enjoyed this season so much thus far and I am looking forward to seeing how it all plays out in the next half. I did very much enjoy reading your review.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-01-31 11:49
(Edited by Alice - Trying to keep this discussion on topic. This post isn't relevant to the topic, it's addressing another poster's behavior).
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-01-31 11:49
(Edited by Alice - Trying to keep this discussion on topic. This post isn't relevant to the topic, it's addressing another poster's behavior).
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 12:05
I never said Gerry was bashing Dean.   In fact earlier I praised her post with no criticism.  I am in agreement with her except for my opinion of the motw story which I believe was especially weak.

I never said Dean was perfect and Sam was not. However I do believe Sam was wrong about Benny and his reaction was out of character because he was jealous Dean put some one else before him by leaving sam to hunt with him and then claiming benny never let him down. Then of course we had the innocent vamps and the evi hunter in FandG to hammer the point home. l I was disagreeing with some one else that had to beat that dead horse again.

(Note from Alice - Castiel's Cat, I'm going to allow this post because I believe your intentions were okay, but you've got to understand that tone means everything when leaving a comment. Your other posts have come across as pretty harsh. Please try to tone down the attitude when posting. It will prevent strong reactions to your comments).

For me the show is cohesive only by understanding every part. I predicted dean would have the mytharc
and the others character arcs... which is what we are
seeing. I predicted Sam would remain sick after the trials. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't start getting sick again because they laid so much groundwork for Sam= Fisher king and Dean curing him with the spear of Destiny.

(Edited, trying to tone down the attitude). They're only fictional characters and I only read website for insight and good speculation which to my mind consists of more than constantly explaining away a character's actions.
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 12:05
I never said Gerry was bashing Dean.   In fact earlier I praised her post with no criticism.  I am in agreement with her except for my opinion of the motw story which I believe was especially weak.

I never said Dean was perfect and Sam was not. However I do believe Sam was wrong about Benny and his reaction was out of character because he was jealous Dean put some one else before him by leaving sam to hunt with him and then claiming benny never let him down. Then of course we had the innocent vamps and the evi hunter in FandG to hammer the point home. l I was disagreeing with some one else that had to beat that dead horse again.

(Note from Alice - Castiel's Cat, I'm going to allow this post because I believe your intentions were okay, but you've got to understand that tone means everything when leaving a comment. Your other posts have come across as pretty harsh. Please try to tone down the attitude when posting. It will prevent strong reactions to your comments).

For me the show is cohesive only by understanding every part. I predicted dean would have the mytharc
and the others character arcs... which is what we are
seeing. I predicted Sam would remain sick after the trials. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't start getting sick again because they laid so much groundwork for Sam= Fisher king and Dean curing him with the spear of Destiny.

(Edited, trying to tone down the attitude). They're only fictional characters and I only read website for insight and good speculation which to my mind consists of more than constantly explaining away a character's actions.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-01-31 12:21
(Edited by Alice - No worries, this post won't get you kicked off the site. I'm only editing your comment because I've edited the one you were addressing. You're good).
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-01-31 12:21
(Edited by Alice - No worries, this post won't get you kicked off the site. I'm only editing your comment because I've edited the one you were addressing. You're good).
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-31 12:41
(Edited by Alice. Try toning down the attitude, okay? This was an attack on another poster. Not allowed, even if you don't agree).
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-31 12:41
(Edited by Alice. Try toning down the attitude, okay? This was an attack on another poster. Not allowed, even if you don't agree).
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 12:48
Manzanita Cow. Thanks. I hardly see the difference in the statements myself but if hypocritical is offensive to you I apologize . I just think the juxtaposition of Bitten and Blood Brothers was intentional to highlight the differences in Sam's responses.
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 12:48
Manzanita Cow. Thanks. I hardly see the difference in the statements myself but if hypocritical is offensive to you I apologize . I just think the juxtaposition of Bitten and Blood Brothers was intentional to highlight the differences in Sam's responses.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-01-31 12:51
(Edited. I'm just trying to avoid negative responses here to a heated argument.)
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-01-31 12:51
(Edited. I'm just trying to avoid negative responses here to a heated argument.)
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 12:54
(Edited. I've edited the comment of which you took offense, so I'm editing responses to that comment as well).

Yes I think sam has been set up and is due a redemption arc with Dean. Since dean is in a downward spiral I expect we will get it with Sam helping to save him.
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 12:54
(Edited. I've edited the comment of which you took offense, so I'm editing responses to that comment as well).

Yes I think sam has been set up and is due a redemption arc with Dean. Since dean is in a downward spiral I expect we will get it with Sam helping to save him.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-31 12:54
Quoting CASTIELs cat:
Thanks Gerry.
It is wrong to bash another character to exonerate your favorite, rather than admit they are human and did something that can be considered questionable.

NAPPI if I recall yourself admitted to finding Benny boring and fast forwarded through his scenes... LOL so yeah your insight is about as far apart from me as one could get since I couldn't get enough of Benny and consider him the best friend and partner that Dean could have.


i did find benny boring, still do. eli was short lived but so much more interesting. loved ty as eli. but just so you know, i don't go giving opinions without first watching and listening, really listening. i just don't simply not like someone without cause or reason. i watched every minute of every episode of s8. more than once in fact. it was only after a repeat watching, because i always watch the ep twice the night it's shown because it's always better the second time for me. i pay more attention the second time as well. so i haven't started fast forwarding benny episodes til after the second watch. after the second watch, i still had the same opinion of benny and i was still bored by him and dean. i tried to find enjoyment in it. i tried to look to the positive, but i couldn't muster the interest in this pairing. i could say the same about sam and amelia. i found her character boring and uninteresting and it took a couple of rewatches to understand the point of her existence. i understood it, much like i understood benny's. i saw the purpose for both, but like i said neither interested me. i didn't think their characters were nearly half as funny, scary, emotional, caring...as some of the other, actually most of the other characters i've seen on this show. although i didn't fast forward sam/amelia parts i did sort of let my mind wander...i have to say jared is way too gorgeous for me to fast forward. although i love jensen as well, and he is also quite handsome, i found myself still able to fast forward...i guess my personal boredom during dean/benny scenes trumped the pretty. :D

castiel's cat, i want to apologize to you for the first line of my post. when i was saying it in my head, it wasn't sounding at all harsh. i was simply thinking that i am in total disagreement. but as i read it now, the wording seems rude and for that i'm sorry. it wasn't my intent to be rude at all. i tried so hard to word everything so it sounds civil, no body is being bashed all the while trying to show fairness to both sam and dean.


i am totally with you thisoldbag. i love this season, i think it's amazing. i think carver and co. are doing a wonderful job in maturing these boys and bringing them to the point where we've all been waiting for them to be. i love the journey in getting there. and i too am looking forward to seeing sam save dean. i mean really save him, i think that's exactly what sam needs. actually i think it's what they both need.

can i tell you ...i am counting the moments that we get to see sam in shorts and a tank top...holy hell...and nobody can look good in a hair net...unless your name is dean winchester.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-31 12:54
Quote:
Thanks Gerry.
It is wrong to bash another character to exonerate your favorite, rather than admit they are human and did something that can be considered questionable.

NAPPI if I recall yourself admitted to finding Benny boring and fast forwarded through his scenes... LOL so yeah your insight is about as far apart from me as one could get since I couldn't get enough of Benny and consider him the best friend and partner that Dean could have.
i did find benny boring, still do. eli was short lived but so much more interesting. loved ty as eli. but just so you know, i don't go giving opinions without first watching and listening, really listening. i just don't simply not like someone without cause or reason. i watched every minute of every episode of s8. more than once in fact. it was only after a repeat watching, because i always watch the ep twice the night it's shown because it's always better the second time for me. i pay more attention the second time as well. so i haven't started fast forwarding benny episodes til after the second watch. after the second watch, i still had the same opinion of benny and i was still bored by him and dean. i tried to find enjoyment in it. i tried to look to the positive, but i couldn't muster the interest in this pairing. i could say the same about sam and amelia. i found her character boring and uninteresting and it took a couple of rewatches to understand the point of her existence. i understood it, much like i understood benny's. i saw the purpose for both, but like i said neither interested me. i didn't think their characters were nearly half as funny, scary, emotional, caring...as some of the other, actually most of the other characters i've seen on this show. although i didn't fast forward sam/amelia parts i did sort of let my mind wander...i have to say jared is way too gorgeous for me to fast forward. although i love jensen as well, and he is also quite handsome, i found myself still able to fast forward...i guess my personal boredom during dean/benny scenes trumped the pretty. :D

castiel's cat, i want to apologize to you for the first line of my post. when i was saying it in my head, it wasn't sounding at all harsh. i was simply thinking that i am in total disagreement. but as i read it now, the wording seems rude and for that i'm sorry. it wasn't my intent to be rude at all. i tried so hard to word everything so it sounds civil, no body is being bashed all the while trying to show fairness to both sam and dean.


i am totally with you thisoldbag. i love this season, i think it's amazing. i think carver and co. are doing a wonderful job in maturing these boys and bringing them to the point where we've all been waiting for them to be. i love the journey in getting there. and i too am looking forward to seeing sam save dean. i mean really save him, i think that's exactly what sam needs. actually i think it's what they both need.

can i tell you ...i am counting the moments that we get to see sam in shorts and a tank top...holy hell...and nobody can look good in a hair net...unless your name is dean winchester.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-31 12:56
Quoting CASTIELs cat:
Manzanita Cow. Thanks. I hardly see the difference in the statements myself but if hypocritical is offensive to you I apologize . I just think the juxtaposition of Bitten and Blood Brothers was intentional to highlight the differences in Sam's responses.
Because the situations were different.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-31 12:56
Quote:
Manzanita Cow. Thanks. I hardly see the difference in the statements myself but if hypocritical is offensive to you I apologize . I just think the juxtaposition of Bitten and Blood Brothers was intentional to highlight the differences in Sam's responses.
Because the situations were different.
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 12:58
There are several episodes with benny behaving good and honorable and not a single episode where he behaves badly or like a normal vamp. In fact he was open and honest about how hard his "sobriety" was and may have wanted to live with Dean as a friend. Instead dean was forced to dump him and felt guilty because he knew he let a friend down. Therefore the idea that Benny was bad and Dean was ashamed of him is fantasy IMO.
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 12:58
There are several episodes with benny behaving good and honorable and not a single episode where he behaves badly or like a normal vamp. In fact he was open and honest about how hard his "sobriety" was and may have wanted to live with Dean as a friend. Instead dean was forced to dump him and felt guilty because he knew he let a friend down. Therefore the idea that Benny was bad and Dean was ashamed of him is fantasy IMO.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-01-31 13:02
Quoting CASTIELs cat:

Yes I think sam has been set up and is due a redemption arc with Dean.


I don't think Sam needs to redeem himself with regards to Dean at all. In this particular season, I think it is the other way round.

Dean tricked Sam into having his mind and soul invaded by an angel. And given Sam's history with possession, that is possibly the worst thing Dean could ever do to Sam.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-01-31 13:02
Quote:

Yes I think sam has been set up and is due a redemption arc with Dean.
I don't think Sam needs to redeem himself with regards to Dean at all. In this particular season, I think it is the other way round.

Dean tricked Sam into having his mind and soul invaded by an angel. And given Sam's history with possession, that is possibly the worst thing Dean could ever do to Sam.
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 13:02
NAPPI. No apology necessary. We have strong feelings.
In fact last summer when we discussed this issue previously I was unwell. I had a drug interaction that was causing heart attack like symptoms. I survived but I am sure I fed the fire because my heart was beating through the roof and I was not thinking things through well. I over reacted surely.

This is a fantastic season. I am very curious how the mark will change Dean.
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 13:02
NAPPI. No apology necessary. We have strong feelings.
In fact last summer when we discussed this issue previously I was unwell. I had a drug interaction that was causing heart attack like symptoms. I survived but I am sure I fed the fire because my heart was beating through the roof and I was not thinking things through well. I over reacted surely.

This is a fantastic season. I am very curious how the mark will change Dean.
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 13:04
And yet it is set up that Dean will need saving... go figure that!

(Note from Alice - Just FYI, try to use quotes or give the post number of the post you're addressing. We don't have it setup anymore to do direct replies to specific posts so it helps eliminate confusion! Thanks.)
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 13:04
And yet it is set up that Dean will need saving... go figure that!

(Note from Alice - Just FYI, try to use quotes or give the post number of the post you're addressing. We don't have it setup anymore to do direct replies to specific posts so it helps eliminate confusion! Thanks.)
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 13:05
Quoting anonymousN:
Quoting CASTIELs cat:
Manzanita Cow. Thanks. I hardly see the difference in the statements myself but if hypocritical is offensive to you I apologize . I just think the juxtaposition of Bitten and Blood Brothers was intentional to highlight the differences in Sam's responses.
Because the situations were different.

Yes. Because Dean actually knew Benny. They didn't know Kate at all.
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 13:05
Quote:
Quote:
Manzanita Cow. Thanks. I hardly see the difference in the statements myself but if hypocritical is offensive to you I apologize . I just think the juxtaposition of Bitten and Blood Brothers was intentional to highlight the differences in Sam's responses.
Because the situations were different.
Yes. Because Dean actually knew Benny. They didn't know Kate at all.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-31 13:06
Quoting CASTIELs cat:
There are several episodes with benny behaving good and honorable and not a single episode where he behaves badly or like a normal vamp. In fact he was open and honest about how hard his "sobriety" was and may have wanted to live with Dean as a friend. Instead dean was forced to dump him and felt guilty because he knew he let a friend down. Therefore the idea that Benny was bad and Dean was ashamed of him is fantasy IMO.
and who has said this.
It has still not been proven that it was not Benny who killed.It was Benny who told that he has not killed it was not shown.Dean had to dump Benny because he could not not do it after killing Amy and unleashing a monster onto earth in that process. (Edited by Alice, I'm toning down the attitude here).
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-31 13:06
Quote:
There are several episodes with benny behaving good and honorable and not a single episode where he behaves badly or like a normal vamp. In fact he was open and honest about how hard his "sobriety" was and may have wanted to live with Dean as a friend. Instead dean was forced to dump him and felt guilty because he knew he let a friend down. Therefore the idea that Benny was bad and Dean was ashamed of him is fantasy IMO.
and who has said this.
It has still not been proven that it was not Benny who killed.It was Benny who told that he has not killed it was not shown.Dean had to dump Benny because he could not not do it after killing Amy and unleashing a monster onto earth in that process. (Edited by Alice, I'm toning down the attitude here).
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-31 13:08
Quoting CASTIELs cat:
Quoting anonymousN:
Quoting CASTIELs cat:
Manzanita Cow. Thanks. I hardly see the difference in the statements myself but if hypocritical is offensive to you I apologize . I just think the juxtaposition of Bitten and Blood Brothers was intentional to highlight the differences in Sam's responses.
Because the situations were different.

Yes. Because Dean actually knew Benny. They didn't know Kate at all.

Dean knew Benny in Purgatory not on earth.With Kate they saw the whole process.They had front row seats to Kate's story unedited version.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-31 13:08
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Manzanita Cow. Thanks. I hardly see the difference in the statements myself but if hypocritical is offensive to you I apologize . I just think the juxtaposition of Bitten and Blood Brothers was intentional to highlight the differences in Sam's responses.
Because the situations were different.
Yes. Because Dean actually knew Benny. They didn't know Kate at all.
Dean knew Benny in Purgatory not on earth.With Kate they saw the whole process.They had front row seats to Kate's story unedited version.
Ginger
# Ginger 2014-01-31 13:08
Dean has a deep-seated, gaping, empty hole that is a need to fully trust and be accepted for who he is by one person. Every person he has put his trust in his entire life has broken that trust, except Benny. Glass’ writing Sam saying that the brothers could be hunters, but brothers…insert individual fanwank here…I did not like that at all.

That line offended me because it struck at the heart of Dean’s core; family, protecting his brother his whole life, struggling to saving his life and soul, abandonment; everything that makes up Dean’s character. It was a low blow to leave the episode on a sour note about family being the cause of all the brothers’ have gone through in their life. Since when has family been a negative connotation in this show? Since when has love of family been a negative connotation? Then there was the confusion put on Sam as to exactly why is he mad and what does he want…to die?...to live?…to get out of the responsibilitie s that come with being a hunter?

While I am sure this will play out as the brothers’ season stories in later episodes, it messed with the single most core premise of the show and left Sam or Dean in a bad light, depending on which character a fan identifies with. It also changed the story from the brothers going after evil, which is what I thought they were doing this season while dealing with their personal issues, into focusing on their personal issues while they fight with evil in the background.

I did not like the tone change that this episode heavily implied. Personally, I want to see a dark action/horror show as the focus and less of the soapish personal issues that will lead to Winchester normalcy.
Ginger
# Ginger 2014-01-31 13:08
Dean has a deep-seated, gaping, empty hole that is a need to fully trust and be accepted for who he is by one person. Every person he has put his trust in his entire life has broken that trust, except Benny. Glass’ writing Sam saying that the brothers could be hunters, but brothers…insert individual fanwank here…I did not like that at all.

That line offended me because it struck at the heart of Dean’s core; family, protecting his brother his whole life, struggling to saving his life and soul, abandonment; everything that makes up Dean’s character. It was a low blow to leave the episode on a sour note about family being the cause of all the brothers’ have gone through in their life. Since when has family been a negative connotation in this show? Since when has love of family been a negative connotation? Then there was the confusion put on Sam as to exactly why is he mad and what does he want…to die?...to live?…to get out of the responsibilitie s that come with being a hunter?

While I am sure this will play out as the brothers’ season stories in later episodes, it messed with the single most core premise of the show and left Sam or Dean in a bad light, depending on which character a fan identifies with. It also changed the story from the brothers going after evil, which is what I thought they were doing this season while dealing with their personal issues, into focusing on their personal issues while they fight with evil in the background.

I did not like the tone change that this episode heavily implied. Personally, I want to see a dark action/horror show as the focus and less of the soapish personal issues that will lead to Winchester normalcy.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-01-31 13:13
So Dean needs saving, and hopefully Sam will do that. It doesn't mean Sam needs to redeem himself. They are two separate propositions.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-01-31 13:13
So Dean needs saving, and hopefully Sam will do that. It doesn't mean Sam needs to redeem himself. They are two separate propositions.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-31 13:15
Quote:
That line offended me because it struck at the heart of Dean’s core; family, protecting his brother his whole life, struggling to saving his life and soul, abandonment; everything that makes up Dean’s character.
If he sees his brother going to college as abandonment then there is problem.Some of Dean's problems are his own constructs and the same is true for Sam .Sam's body has been used by various creatures to do really messed up things but this time it was by Dean.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-31 13:15
Quote:
That line offended me because it struck at the heart of Dean’s core; family, protecting his brother his whole life, struggling to saving his life and soul, abandonment; everything that makes up Dean’s character.
If he sees his brother going to college as abandonment then there is problem.Some of Dean's problems are his own constructs and the same is true for Sam .Sam's body has been used by various creatures to do really messed up things but this time it was by Dean.
paloma
# paloma 2014-01-31 13:34
It was an ok episode, with the millionth kind of werewolf... The problem is that these speeches always had to cut out some sentence and this case is not different. I watched the speech because I think that Sam has every right to be angry. And they leave me the sensation that what Sam wanted is a human Colt. Well now I think that I will pass quickly the video every time that he talk.
paloma
# paloma 2014-01-31 13:34
It was an ok episode, with the millionth kind of werewolf... The problem is that these speeches always had to cut out some sentence and this case is not different. I watched the speech because I think that Sam has every right to be angry. And they leave me the sensation that what Sam wanted is a human Colt. Well now I think that I will pass quickly the video every time that he talk.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-31 13:42
Quoting CASTIELs cat:
I miss your point anonymous because the hunter was evil in Fans G and the vampires being hunted were innocent. DEAN was right in this episode all of the way. Do I think it means something in the context of season 8? Yes. Is it my fault the writers' went this way. No. So I do not understand your point. I am a person that believes in subtext especially during Carver's shrinking reign, being a fan of his Being Human in which all of the characters struggle.

Yes I think sam has been set up and is due a redemption arc with Dean. Since dean is in a downward spiral I expect we will get it with Sam helping to save him.


(Edited by Alice - You're chastising someone else's opinion. That is against our rules. Try to be more civil).

Does Dean not need redemption this season?Sam does not IMO.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-31 13:42
Quote:
I miss your point anonymous because the hunter was evil in Fans G and the vampires being hunted were innocent. DEAN was right in this episode all of the way. Do I think it means something in the context of season 8? Yes. Is it my fault the writers' went this way. No. So I do not understand your point. I am a person that believes in subtext especially during Carver's shrinking reign, being a fan of his Being Human in which all of the characters struggle.

Yes I think sam has been set up and is due a redemption arc with Dean. Since dean is in a downward spiral I expect we will get it with Sam helping to save him.
(Edited by Alice - You're chastising someone else's opinion. That is against our rules. Try to be more civil).

Does Dean not need redemption this season?Sam does not IMO.
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 13:49
Edited by Alice - I edited the post that offended. No need for to show an angry reply.
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 13:49
Edited by Alice - I edited the post that offended. No need for to show an angry reply.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-01-31 13:49
Castielscat I have said this before sorry for being repetitious, it's not about keeping score, it's not about blame. If you find other characters more compelling than one of the lead actors that is of course your right. But if you really think that the character of Dean thinks that anyone is more important than his brother than I think you are missing a bravado performance by Jensen as he portrays his undying devotion to his brother. For Dean there is no peace or freedom without Sam. I would have to say that everyone involved with the show would hope that you understand and root for the brothers to prevail. They have a lot to muddle through right now, personal as well as professional. Both brothers have made globally destructive choices but the show is about how these two cope with each other as well as the overwhelming chaos around them. It is the point of the show.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-01-31 13:49
Castielscat I have said this before sorry for being repetitious, it's not about keeping score, it's not about blame. If you find other characters more compelling than one of the lead actors that is of course your right. But if you really think that the character of Dean thinks that anyone is more important than his brother than I think you are missing a bravado performance by Jensen as he portrays his undying devotion to his brother. For Dean there is no peace or freedom without Sam. I would have to say that everyone involved with the show would hope that you understand and root for the brothers to prevail. They have a lot to muddle through right now, personal as well as professional. Both brothers have made globally destructive choices but the show is about how these two cope with each other as well as the overwhelming chaos around them. It is the point of the show.
Ginger
# Ginger 2014-01-31 13:50
Quoting anonymousN:
Quote:
That line offended me because it struck at the heart of Dean’s core; family, protecting his brother his whole life, struggling to saving his life and soul, abandonment; everything that makes up Dean’s character.
If he sees his brother going to college as abandonment then there is problem.Some of Dean's problems are his own constructs and the same is true for Sam .Sam's body has been used by various creatures to do really messed up things but this time it was by Dean.
My point was not that Sam caused any of Dean's problems or that Dean caused any of Sam's. The point is that the premise and the writing in this episode was a major fail for me. It gave every appearance of changing the entire structure of the story being told and the tone of the season, which I was enjoying up until this episode. It raised my anxiety level for the quality of the rest of the season for the first time.
Ginger
# Ginger 2014-01-31 13:50
Quote:
Quote:
That line offended me because it struck at the heart of Dean’s core; family, protecting his brother his whole life, struggling to saving his life and soul, abandonment; everything that makes up Dean’s character.
If he sees his brother going to college as abandonment then there is problem.Some of Dean's problems are his own constructs and the same is true for Sam .Sam's body has been used by various creatures to do really messed up things but this time it was by Dean.
My point was not that Sam caused any of Dean's problems or that Dean caused any of Sam's. The point is that the premise and the writing in this episode was a major fail for me. It gave every appearance of changing the entire structure of the story being told and the tone of the season, which I was enjoying up until this episode. It raised my anxiety level for the quality of the rest of the season for the first time.
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 13:59
Cheryl 42. Of course I know Dean keeps putting Sam first. THE show keeps telling me it's is wrong for Dean's well being as well as the world's. SAM keeps saying it too although I think he's blamed his brother far to long for everything that sam doesn't like about his life.

I like this review very much.

I like what Ginger had to say.

I don't like throwing all the other characters under the bus in preference for one. The show needs more secondary characters that stick around to round out the world building. I suspect that if the show continues beyond 10 , the matured relationship won't have the brothers joined at the hip. I can see Sam being the new Bobby and Dean handling more of the fieldwork.

I think there is so little chemistry between dean and sam at this point it would take lobotomies of both to resurrect the relationship.

Dean can't redeem himself until his downward spiral is complete and that will not happen until next season I suspect.
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 13:59
Cheryl 42. Of course I know Dean keeps putting Sam first. THE show keeps telling me it's is wrong for Dean's well being as well as the world's. SAM keeps saying it too although I think he's blamed his brother far to long for everything that sam doesn't like about his life.

I like this review very much.

I like what Ginger had to say.

I don't like throwing all the other characters under the bus in preference for one. The show needs more secondary characters that stick around to round out the world building. I suspect that if the show continues beyond 10 , the matured relationship won't have the brothers joined at the hip. I can see Sam being the new Bobby and Dean handling more of the fieldwork.

I think there is so little chemistry between dean and sam at this point it would take lobotomies of both to resurrect the relationship.

Dean can't redeem himself until his downward spiral is complete and that will not happen until next season I suspect.
LostHisShoe
# LostHisShoe 2014-01-31 14:13
Edited by Alice - No attacks against other posters, even if you disagree. Make your point in a civil and constructive manner.
LostHisShoe
# LostHisShoe 2014-01-31 14:13
Edited by Alice - No attacks against other posters, even if you disagree. Make your point in a civil and constructive manner.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-31 14:17
Thanks, everyone, for trying to keep the conversation enjoyable for everyone, regardless of perspective.

Castiel's Cat, there's no problem with liking different characters or disliking characters. I think it would benefit the conversation flow, though, if you argued specifics the way you do with;

"The show needs more secondary characters that stick around to round out the world building."

rather than dismissive generalities like:

"I don't like throwing all the other characters under the bus in preference for one."

It's just makes discussions easier for all to join when we make specific points about what we enjoy or don't rather than sweeping ones.

Dean can't redeem himself until his downward spiral is complete and that will not happen until next season I suspect.

My view is the writers will heal the current chasm between the brothers by the end of this season, as they have now been exploring the territory for two seasons and they knew this episode would be extremely upsetting for many. It's possible Dean's dark road via The Mark Of Cain will stretch out two seasons, but that seems a long time for Sam and Dean not to feel like brothers to themselves or to the audience.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-31 14:17
Thanks, everyone, for trying to keep the conversation enjoyable for everyone, regardless of perspective.

Castiel's Cat, there's no problem with liking different characters or disliking characters. I think it would benefit the conversation flow, though, if you argued specifics the way you do with;

"The show needs more secondary characters that stick around to round out the world building."

rather than dismissive generalities like:

"I don't like throwing all the other characters under the bus in preference for one."

It's just makes discussions easier for all to join when we make specific points about what we enjoy or don't rather than sweeping ones.

Dean can't redeem himself until his downward spiral is complete and that will not happen until next season I suspect.

My view is the writers will heal the current chasm between the brothers by the end of this season, as they have now been exploring the territory for two seasons and they knew this episode would be extremely upsetting for many. It's possible Dean's dark road via The Mark Of Cain will stretch out two seasons, but that seems a long time for Sam and Dean not to feel like brothers to themselves or to the audience.
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 14:22
(Edited, attacking another poster).
The first half of the season shows Dean's mindset. In RT he says that he should burn; that everyone around him dies; that he's poison.
First Born: he's drinking again, is scruffy, goes off wirh Crowley whom he doesn't trust and whom he knows is playing him, breaks into Cain's home, takes the mark without thought or information and plans to go after Abaddon. Crowley observes that no one hates you more than you hate yourself. Good lord! One is supposed to extrapolate death by Dean for Dean. SadlyI suspect he's immortal and really will be a danger to others now.

(Edited, mocking another poster).
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 14:22
(Edited, attacking another poster).
The first half of the season shows Dean's mindset. In RT he says that he should burn; that everyone around him dies; that he's poison.
First Born: he's drinking again, is scruffy, goes off wirh Crowley whom he doesn't trust and whom he knows is playing him, breaks into Cain's home, takes the mark without thought or information and plans to go after Abaddon. Crowley observes that no one hates you more than you hate yourself. Good lord! One is supposed to extrapolate death by Dean for Dean. SadlyI suspect he's immortal and really will be a danger to others now.

(Edited, mocking another poster).
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 14:29
(Edited by Alice - I really think you were missing the point of Gerry's post. No one said that you can't discuss Sam's shortcomings. Again, it's about tone. The way you wrote it, it came across as character bashing.

Also, bringing up your perceived history of this site is not relevant to the topic, especially since Gerry is a new writer to us.)
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 14:29
(Edited by Alice - I really think you were missing the point of Gerry's post. No one said that you can't discuss Sam's shortcomings. Again, it's about tone. The way you wrote it, it came across as character bashing.

Also, bringing up your perceived history of this site is not relevant to the topic, especially since Gerry is a new writer to us.)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-01-31 14:33
delete
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-01-31 14:33
delete
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-31 14:44
Quoting CASTIELs cat:
Thanks Gerry for input. May I ask why it is okay to discuss Dean's shortcomings, or any character that is sympathetic to Dean, but not Sam's (see nearly every post on this site going back years). This is what it looks like to outsiders. Is it just that I am not upset with a different opinion and do not make pleas with the powers that be? Frankly I was really pleasantly surprised by your reviews in they are quite balanced.


I hope I didn't sound like you cannot discuss Sam's shortcomings in the same way Dean's get discussed. Both boys have issues, strengths, problems, weaknesses, etc. I do try to be balanced because that's how I see the show.

I only wanted to point out that how we argue a point is as important as the actual point. Saying sweeping things about a character is less effective than giving a specific story point to illustrate something, and it keeps the conversation lively, but polite. I love discussion on my favourite show and I know how hard it can be when the show ventures into sensitive territory. These characters are loved.

edited to add a post like this one from LostHisShoe is another example of a sweeping statement:

This is, frankly, baseless twoddle.

Discussing specifics rather than making generalizations will help keep the discussion respectful of our differences.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-01-31 14:44
Quote:
Thanks Gerry for input. May I ask why it is okay to discuss Dean's shortcomings, or any character that is sympathetic to Dean, but not Sam's (see nearly every post on this site going back years). This is what it looks like to outsiders. Is it just that I am not upset with a different opinion and do not make pleas with the powers that be? Frankly I was really pleasantly surprised by your reviews in they are quite balanced.
I hope I didn't sound like you cannot discuss Sam's shortcomings in the same way Dean's get discussed. Both boys have issues, strengths, problems, weaknesses, etc. I do try to be balanced because that's how I see the show.

I only wanted to point out that how we argue a point is as important as the actual point. Saying sweeping things about a character is less effective than giving a specific story point to illustrate something, and it keeps the conversation lively, but polite. I love discussion on my favourite show and I know how hard it can be when the show ventures into sensitive territory. These characters are loved.

edited to add a post like this one from LostHisShoe is another example of a sweeping statement:

This is, frankly, baseless twoddle.

Discussing specifics rather than making generalizations will help keep the discussion respectful of our differences.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-31 14:45
Quoting CASTIELs cat:
Sam admired Victor and ended up knocked out as a princess in peril. Dean Sussex out the vamps and saved the last from being killed. At least get your facts straight before you start an argument.

Let's hope that Dean let's Sam die the next time around!

I said I was not sure.Thanks for clearing that but i will watch that episode and get back to you after watching the episode again.I just want to see if Sam sees Victors true colors while talking to Victor.

(Edited by Alice. That last comment is blatant Sam vs. Dean. It's gone).
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-31 14:45
Quote:
Sam admired Victor and ended up knocked out as a princess in peril. Dean Sussex out the vamps and saved the last from being killed. At least get your facts straight before you start an argument.

Let's hope that Dean let's Sam die the next time around!
I said I was not sure.Thanks for clearing that but i will watch that episode and get back to you after watching the episode again.I just want to see if Sam sees Victors true colors while talking to Victor.

(Edited by Alice. That last comment is blatant Sam vs. Dean. It's gone).
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-31 14:51
(Edited. Attacking another poster. Against our rules).
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-31 14:51
(Edited. Attacking another poster. Against our rules).
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-31 14:53
(Edited by Alice. Negative post mocking another poster. I'm not permitting this kind of behavior on this site anymore. Maybe you missed our recent post about our new mission? If another poster offends you, just hit the "Report To Administrator" button.)

http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/article-archives/opinion/18258-my-2014-new-year-s-resolution-back-to-basics-for-the-winchester-family-business
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-31 14:53
(Edited by Alice. Negative post mocking another poster. I'm not permitting this kind of behavior on this site anymore. Maybe you missed our recent post about our new mission? If another poster offends you, just hit the "Report To Administrator" button.)

http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/article-archives/opinion/18258-my-2014-new-year-s-resolution-back-to-basics-for-the-winchester-family-business
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-31 14:57
ding ding ding...time out. i mean here in ny it's like 35 degrees, but from where i'm sitting, it's getting pretty heated in here, and i don't want anyone getting in trouble. now i know you can tell me to mind my own beeswax, but as much as i may agree or disagree with someone, i still don't' want to see people getting in trouble or all riled up. at the end of the day it is a show. not only that, but just know that no matter what we are seeing on screen, happy, sad, angry, scared, when the director yells cut, jared and jensen are goofing around with big happy grins on their faces. the brothers behind the screen are not as angry or hurt as the brothers on the screen. ;-)
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-31 14:57
ding ding ding...time out. i mean here in ny it's like 35 degrees, but from where i'm sitting, it's getting pretty heated in here, and i don't want anyone getting in trouble. now i know you can tell me to mind my own beeswax, but as much as i may agree or disagree with someone, i still don't' want to see people getting in trouble or all riled up. at the end of the day it is a show. not only that, but just know that no matter what we are seeing on screen, happy, sad, angry, scared, when the director yells cut, jared and jensen are goofing around with big happy grins on their faces. the brothers behind the screen are not as angry or hurt as the brothers on the screen. ;-)
alice
# alice 2014-01-31 15:14
Attitudes are flaring and getting out of control, but I can't moderate right now. I'm locking comments on this article until I can go back and edit and things simmer down. Excessive negativity and complaining is NOT allowed as Gerry has tried to explain.

ETA: If your comment is missing, that doesn't mean it's deleted. It's been earmarked for moderation at a later time. It may or may not be edited when it is republished. I just saw ones at a quick glance that veered off topic and unpublished for now.
Alice
# Alice 2014-01-31 15:14
Attitudes are flaring and getting out of control, but I can't moderate right now. I'm locking comments on this article until I can go back and edit and things simmer down. Excessive negativity and complaining is NOT allowed as Gerry has tried to explain.

ETA: If your comment is missing, that doesn't mean it's deleted. It's been earmarked for moderation at a later time. It may or may not be edited when it is republished. I just saw ones at a quick glance that veered off topic and unpublished for now.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-31 15:17
Quoting nappi815:
ding ding ding...time out. i mean here in ny it's like 35 degrees, but from where i'm sitting, it's getting pretty heated in here, and i don't want anyone getting in trouble. now i know you can tell me to mind my own beeswax, but as much as i may agree or disagree with someone, i still don't' want to see people getting in trouble or all riled up. at the end of the day it is a show. not only that, but just know that no matter what we are seeing on screen, happy, sad, angry, scared, when the director yells cut, jared and jensen are goofing around with big happy grins on their faces. the brothers behind the screen are not as angry or hurt as the brothers on the screen. ;-)

Thanks for telling me this nappi815.I needed this.simmering down 3 2 1 :zzz :-)
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-01-31 15:17
Quote:
ding ding ding...time out. i mean here in ny it's like 35 degrees, but from where i'm sitting, it's getting pretty heated in here, and i don't want anyone getting in trouble. now i know you can tell me to mind my own beeswax, but as much as i may agree or disagree with someone, i still don't' want to see people getting in trouble or all riled up. at the end of the day it is a show. not only that, but just know that no matter what we are seeing on screen, happy, sad, angry, scared, when the director yells cut, jared and jensen are goofing around with big happy grins on their faces. the brothers behind the screen are not as angry or hurt as the brothers on the screen. ;-)
Thanks for telling me this nappi815.I needed this.simmering down 3 2 1 :zzz :-)
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 15:17
(Edited by Alice. Attacking another poster. I know that poster hasn't been very civil either and I've edited those posts. But we have this feature called "Report to Administrator" if you're logged in. Or, send the Admin (me) a message via "Contact Us." Your complaint will be heard.

Sleepy Hollow? We've been covering that at our sister site, TV For The Rest of Us. Any insights you have on that show are more than welcome there!
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-01-31 15:17
(Edited by Alice. Attacking another poster. I know that poster hasn't been very civil either and I've edited those posts. But we have this feature called "Report to Administrator" if you're logged in. Or, send the Admin (me) a message via "Contact Us." Your complaint will be heard.

Sleepy Hollow? We've been covering that at our sister site, TV For The Rest of Us. Any insights you have on that show are more than welcome there!
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-01-31 15:47
I don't really understand the use of the word redemption over and over or how it applies to Dean in this case. What should Dean say? I'm sorry I did what I thought was my only option to keep you alive. I realize in hindsight now I should have just let you die. This isn't anything like when Sam chose to follow Ruby over following Dean in S4. Sam actually chose someone ELSE over his brother in S4 and again in S8 he chose to walk away from hunting and looking for Dean and chose a normal life OVER Dean and if Sam cared so much for Kevin then why did he leave him dangling in the wind with Crowley for a year?

The way things have been done, especially these last two seasons, I would say that Sam is manipulating Dean to serve his purposes and using Dean's sense of guilt, responsibility, and loyalty to family to keep Dean tied to him.

You don't kick someone when they are down like Sam did to Dean. Sorry it's just so wrong in my book. Sam could have learned something from Colette about love, I think. Sam said yes in the chapel and he said yes to staying alive in ep.1. Was he tricked? Well so was Dean.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-01-31 15:47
I don't really understand the use of the word redemption over and over or how it applies to Dean in this case. What should Dean say? I'm sorry I did what I thought was my only option to keep you alive. I realize in hindsight now I should have just let you die. This isn't anything like when Sam chose to follow Ruby over following Dean in S4. Sam actually chose someone ELSE over his brother in S4 and again in S8 he chose to walk away from hunting and looking for Dean and chose a normal life OVER Dean and if Sam cared so much for Kevin then why did he leave him dangling in the wind with Crowley for a year?

The way things have been done, especially these last two seasons, I would say that Sam is manipulating Dean to serve his purposes and using Dean's sense of guilt, responsibility, and loyalty to family to keep Dean tied to him.

You don't kick someone when they are down like Sam did to Dean. Sorry it's just so wrong in my book. Sam could have learned something from Colette about love, I think. Sam said yes in the chapel and he said yes to staying alive in ep.1. Was he tricked? Well so was Dean.
reedmac
# reedmac 2014-01-31 16:08
(Edited by Alice - I'm just not in the mood at this point to entertain a ranting, scathing post that is so blatantly Sam vs. Dean. Especially when everything that you posted up to this point is against our rules).

I look forward to next weeks episode, I hope there is no mention of or sign of anything that has happened so far this season, a nice MOTW episode with both brothers participating in the hunt but doesnt focus on them would be a welcome change.
reedmac
# reedmac 2014-01-31 16:08
(Edited by Alice - I'm just not in the mood at this point to entertain a ranting, scathing post that is so blatantly Sam vs. Dean. Especially when everything that you posted up to this point is against our rules).

I look forward to next weeks episode, I hope there is no mention of or sign of anything that has happened so far this season, a nice MOTW episode with both brothers participating in the hunt but doesnt focus on them would be a welcome change.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-31 17:21
i have to disagree with you prix in regards to your post. there is not one instance where sam has ever tricked dean.
i'm sorry that you can't see where dean is wrong here. dean tricked his brother into being possessed by an angel, knowing full well it goes against everything that sam stands for and would want. dean said so. he knew that to be the case. he almost didn't go through with it, but at the very last second, when it actually came down to letting sam die, he couldn't. so he tricked sam into saying yes based on sam's unwaivering trust in his brother. that is manipulation.
but i understand it and forgive it and glad he did it, but it doesn't make it any less wrong.
dean continued to lie to sam about what he'd done. i get it. at the beginning, he couldn't risk sam finding out. it was wrong, but i get it. but sam was starting to ask questions. he began to believe that there was something wrong with him. he was losing time. he thought he was going crazy and still dean kept silent. dean lied for too long. he should've opened up to sam and told him the truth and allowed sam to decide for himself whether to evict gad or not. dean took that decision away from sam, as though sam were a child unable to decide for himself. dean showed no trust or faith in sam. sam feels betrayed and he has every right to feel that way.
you look at it as choosing ruby over dean. i look at it as defying dean and choosing to kill lilith over dean's demands to kill ruby. for whatever reason, sam deemed ruby necessary to complete his mission. he wanted dean to come with him. dean said no, only if sam kill ruby. sam wouldn't. he needed her. perhaps he needed her demonic skills. she was able to find lilith. she could do the dark deeds sam couldn't. in sam's mind he needed ruby and couldn't kill her. sam defied dean's wishes and went on to kill lilith without him. dean did give sam the same ultimatum john did and told him if he walks out that door, don't come back. dean closed that door on sam the same way their father did. it wasn't about sam choosing ruby over him. sam didn't even choose ruby. he chose killing lilith. it was about sam defying dean's wishes. sam overrode dean's decision and dean became angry at him and cried betrayal. it's not like dean didn't make sure sam paid for that. it took dean 17 episodes before he trust sam again.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-31 17:21
i have to disagree with you prix in regards to your post. there is not one instance where sam has ever tricked dean.
i'm sorry that you can't see where dean is wrong here. dean tricked his brother into being possessed by an angel, knowing full well it goes against everything that sam stands for and would want. dean said so. he knew that to be the case. he almost didn't go through with it, but at the very last second, when it actually came down to letting sam die, he couldn't. so he tricked sam into saying yes based on sam's unwaivering trust in his brother. that is manipulation.
but i understand it and forgive it and glad he did it, but it doesn't make it any less wrong.
dean continued to lie to sam about what he'd done. i get it. at the beginning, he couldn't risk sam finding out. it was wrong, but i get it. but sam was starting to ask questions. he began to believe that there was something wrong with him. he was losing time. he thought he was going crazy and still dean kept silent. dean lied for too long. he should've opened up to sam and told him the truth and allowed sam to decide for himself whether to evict gad or not. dean took that decision away from sam, as though sam were a child unable to decide for himself. dean showed no trust or faith in sam. sam feels betrayed and he has every right to feel that way.
you look at it as choosing ruby over dean. i look at it as defying dean and choosing to kill lilith over dean's demands to kill ruby. for whatever reason, sam deemed ruby necessary to complete his mission. he wanted dean to come with him. dean said no, only if sam kill ruby. sam wouldn't. he needed her. perhaps he needed her demonic skills. she was able to find lilith. she could do the dark deeds sam couldn't. in sam's mind he needed ruby and couldn't kill her. sam defied dean's wishes and went on to kill lilith without him. dean did give sam the same ultimatum john did and told him if he walks out that door, don't come back. dean closed that door on sam the same way their father did. it wasn't about sam choosing ruby over him. sam didn't even choose ruby. he chose killing lilith. it was about sam defying dean's wishes. sam overrode dean's decision and dean became angry at him and cried betrayal. it's not like dean didn't make sure sam paid for that. it took dean 17 episodes before he trust sam again.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-31 17:39
sam didn't choose a normal life over looking for dean in s8 but if it makes it easier for you to believe that then there's nothing more i or anyone can say. but sam thought dean was dead. he said it more than once in we have to talk about kevin. he told dean it was hard to be in the family business that killed his whole family. sam said he drove for months and months wandering. that wasn't because he was looking for some chick. he was driving aimlessly because he was broken and running. sam hit a dog, was guilted into taking care of it and ended up staying in the town where it happened. sam started doing handywork at a motel in the meantime to make some money while waiting for the dog to heal before he can move on. when he met amelia he saw her as broken as he was and found the need to help her, to try to save her. it was part of sam's grieving process.
you talk about sam like he decided, dean's missing, it's miller time. (Edited, keep the attitude in check). carver made it a point, twice, of having it be known that sam believed his brother was dead. he believed everyone was dead. after everything that sam has gone through in s6 and s7, then losing his touchstone, the one person who helped him through all his turmoil of s6 and s7 and you can't see it in your heart how that would affect sam in the most negative way? he had no one, he was alone, distraught. he told amelia he imploded and ran. again, you say sam didn't care about kevin? i absolutely disagree with your assessment. sam broke emotionally, thus couldn't bring himself to deal with not only life without his brother, but the lifestyle that killed his brother. he didn't look for kevin because he couldn't . we were told time and again in s8 that something was wrong with sam. i have given endless examples of this (edited, toning it down).
dean made a mistake, he doesn't deny it and that mistake has led to loss of life. it led to a brother who feels betrayed by being tricked and lied to for months. sam isnt' manipulating dean in any way shape or form. the only thing sam is doing right now is trying to save his relationship with his brother. it's really a shame that you can't or won't see that.
you say sam is kicking dean when he's down? really, how, by being angry and hurt from all the lies? last season, i don't recall dean showing sam any sympathy for the first half of the season. the fact that sam believed his brother was dead and spent the entire year grieving and despite what dean imagined, sam wasn't living the high life and he didnt' forget his brother. he forgot nothing. but i never saw a smidgen of sympathy from dean that he had his brother believing and grieving over his death. why should dean feel sympathy? he was angry and hurt because his misperception had him believing that sam stopped looking for him and hunting because he met a girl. how can dean even think about having sympathy? so maybe, sam isn't in a place to feel sympathy because he's too angry and hurt and feeling betrayed....gee not unlike dean last season.
like i said before, what happens to one brother usually, in time, happens to the other. i love that. i love when the other brother gets to walk a mile in the other's shoes.
ii'm excited and thrilled at the direction these boys are taking now. i look forward to seeing them finally deal with their issues of trust and how they view their roles in ea. other's lives and the mutal respect and trust that comes with it. i'm enjoying the journey in getting there. (Edited, keep it to your point not what you think another poster is saying). but truthfully i think sam is not only helping his brother come to realize that things need to change, but he's helping them both reach that mature and strong relationship that we've all been waiting for for quite some time.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-01-31 17:39
sam didn't choose a normal life over looking for dean in s8 but if it makes it easier for you to believe that then there's nothing more i or anyone can say. but sam thought dean was dead. he said it more than once in we have to talk about kevin. he told dean it was hard to be in the family business that killed his whole family. sam said he drove for months and months wandering. that wasn't because he was looking for some chick. he was driving aimlessly because he was broken and running. sam hit a dog, was guilted into taking care of it and ended up staying in the town where it happened. sam started doing handywork at a motel in the meantime to make some money while waiting for the dog to heal before he can move on. when he met amelia he saw her as broken as he was and found the need to help her, to try to save her. it was part of sam's grieving process.
you talk about sam like he decided, dean's missing, it's miller time. (Edited, keep the attitude in check). carver made it a point, twice, of having it be known that sam believed his brother was dead. he believed everyone was dead. after everything that sam has gone through in s6 and s7, then losing his touchstone, the one person who helped him through all his turmoil of s6 and s7 and you can't see it in your heart how that would affect sam in the most negative way? he had no one, he was alone, distraught. he told amelia he imploded and ran. again, you say sam didn't care about kevin? i absolutely disagree with your assessment. sam broke emotionally, thus couldn't bring himself to deal with not only life without his brother, but the lifestyle that killed his brother. he didn't look for kevin because he couldn't . we were told time and again in s8 that something was wrong with sam. i have given endless examples of this (edited, toning it down).
dean made a mistake, he doesn't deny it and that mistake has led to loss of life. it led to a brother who feels betrayed by being tricked and lied to for months. sam isnt' manipulating dean in any way shape or form. the only thing sam is doing right now is trying to save his relationship with his brother. it's really a shame that you can't or won't see that.
you say sam is kicking dean when he's down? really, how, by being angry and hurt from all the lies? last season, i don't recall dean showing sam any sympathy for the first half of the season. the fact that sam believed his brother was dead and spent the entire year grieving and despite what dean imagined, sam wasn't living the high life and he didnt' forget his brother. he forgot nothing. but i never saw a smidgen of sympathy from dean that he had his brother believing and grieving over his death. why should dean feel sympathy? he was angry and hurt because his misperception had him believing that sam stopped looking for him and hunting because he met a girl. how can dean even think about having sympathy? so maybe, sam isn't in a place to feel sympathy because he's too angry and hurt and feeling betrayed....gee not unlike dean last season.
like i said before, what happens to one brother usually, in time, happens to the other. i love that. i love when the other brother gets to walk a mile in the other's shoes.
ii'm excited and thrilled at the direction these boys are taking now. i look forward to seeing them finally deal with their issues of trust and how they view their roles in ea. other's lives and the mutal respect and trust that comes with it. i'm enjoying the journey in getting there. (Edited, keep it to your point not what you think another poster is saying). but truthfully i think sam is not only helping his brother come to realize that things need to change, but he's helping them both reach that mature and strong relationship that we've all been waiting for for quite some time.
alice
# alice 2014-01-31 20:18
This thread is open again. I'm now going through every comment (especially the unpublished ones) and I WILL edit anything that hints character bashing, insulting other posters, or any bitter rants in general. This discussion was civil for a while, and it's going to remain that way.

I just opened this thread for those of you that want to vent:

http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/article-archives/lets-discuss/18331-let-s-discuss-the-supernatural-i-m-not-happy-thread
Alice
# Alice 2014-01-31 20:18
This thread is open again. I'm now going through every comment (especially the unpublished ones) and I WILL edit anything that hints character bashing, insulting other posters, or any bitter rants in general. This discussion was civil for a while, and it's going to remain that way.

I just opened this thread for those of you that want to vent:

http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/article-archives/lets-discuss/18331-let-s-discuss-the-supernatural-i-m-not-happy-thread
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-01-31 21:20
Ginger,

Sam's "brother" line offended you because it struck at the heat of Dean's core, but what Dean did struck at the heart of Sam's core. Sam is just as damaged as Dean. His issues with control over his life and body are as deep as Dean's issues with family are. It's not only about Dean here. Put yourself in Sam's shoes for one minute and imagine your brother letting you be possessed by another supernatural being after Lucifer.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-01-31 21:20
Ginger,

Sam's "brother" line offended you because it struck at the heat of Dean's core, but what Dean did struck at the heart of Sam's core. Sam is just as damaged as Dean. His issues with control over his life and body are as deep as Dean's issues with family are. It's not only about Dean here. Put yourself in Sam's shoes for one minute and imagine your brother letting you be possessed by another supernatural being after Lucifer.
Ginger
# Ginger 2014-01-31 22:50
Quoting JuliaG:
Ginger,

Sam's "brother" line offended you because it struck at the heat of Dean's core, but what Dean did struck at the heart of Sam's core. Sam is just as damaged as Dean. His issues with control over his life and body are as deep as Dean's issues with family are. It's not only about Dean here. Put yourself in Sam's shoes for one minute and imagine your brother letting you be possessed by another supernatural being after Lucifer.


I am glad you liked the episode. I did not. What I posted was quite clear on the reasons for that, none of which had a single thing to do with this brother did that or that brother did this.

As I have said before, this episode left me completely confused as to what exactly Sam is mad at.

If something as big as Dean feels he is poison to everyone around him to the point that he leaves his home and family (even to the point of playing 'Just Another Night -- and the rest of the line in the chorus is "on the other side of life" in Road Trip), I want a payoff to that big of an issue bigger than Garth saying a few lines about the power of love. I know what Glass was trying to achieve, but I do not know if that issue has been laid to rest for good now. I mean, they are back in the Impala together, but as brothers.....??

With the ancient brother issues being replayed again this season, I do not want to be left confused as to what the issues are, and Sam's flip flopping confuses me.

I want to be clear on what the season's mytharc is and what role the Winchesters are playing in it. For me, this episode muddled that.
Ginger
# Ginger 2014-01-31 22:50
Quote:
Ginger,

Sam's "brother" line offended you because it struck at the heat of Dean's core, but what Dean did struck at the heart of Sam's core. Sam is just as damaged as Dean. His issues with control over his life and body are as deep as Dean's issues with family are. It's not only about Dean here. Put yourself in Sam's shoes for one minute and imagine your brother letting you be possessed by another supernatural being after Lucifer.
I am glad you liked the episode. I did not. What I posted was quite clear on the reasons for that, none of which had a single thing to do with this brother did that or that brother did this.

As I have said before, this episode left me completely confused as to what exactly Sam is mad at.

If something as big as Dean feels he is poison to everyone around him to the point that he leaves his home and family (even to the point of playing 'Just Another Night -- and the rest of the line in the chorus is "on the other side of life" in Road Trip), I want a payoff to that big of an issue bigger than Garth saying a few lines about the power of love. I know what Glass was trying to achieve, but I do not know if that issue has been laid to rest for good now. I mean, they are back in the Impala together, but as brothers.....??

With the ancient brother issues being replayed again this season, I do not want to be left confused as to what the issues are, and Sam's flip flopping confuses me.

I want to be clear on what the season's mytharc is and what role the Winchesters are playing in it. For me, this episode muddled that.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-01-31 23:38
Ginger, I didn't like the episode either. I was just commenting on one part of your post.

IMO, Sam is mad because Dean betrayed him. He's mad at Dean's idea of family, where anything goes to keep the family together. He's mad at the co-dependency, which ends up hurting others. He thinks the brotherhood is broken and he can't trust Dean in the future, or in hindsight (the church scene)

So far, this is the most Dean centric season we've ever had, so I'm sure there's going to be a payoff to his issues. Frankly, Sam is the one I'm worried about.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-01-31 23:38
Ginger, I didn't like the episode either. I was just commenting on one part of your post.

IMO, Sam is mad because Dean betrayed him. He's mad at Dean's idea of family, where anything goes to keep the family together. He's mad at the co-dependency, which ends up hurting others. He thinks the brotherhood is broken and he can't trust Dean in the future, or in hindsight (the church scene)

So far, this is the most Dean centric season we've ever had, so I'm sure there's going to be a payoff to his issues. Frankly, Sam is the one I'm worried about.
Ginger
# Ginger 2014-02-01 01:11
Quoting JuliaG:
Ginger, I didn't like the episode either. I was just commenting on one part of your post.

IMO, Sam is mad because Dean betrayed him. He's mad at Dean's idea of family, where anything goes to keep the family together. He's mad at the co-dependency, which ends up hurting others. He thinks the brotherhood is broken and he can't trust Dean in the future, or in hindsight (the church scene)

So far, this is the most Dean centric season we've ever had, so I'm sure there's going to be a payoff to his issues. Frankly, Sam is the one I'm worried about.


The intent on the writers part of Sam's behavior is probably all that you list; however, but I do not see how all of those got consolidated into being a trust issue.

I have never considered Sam's side of the story being told up until this episode to be about trusting Dean. In fact, I think all of Sam's insecurities, starting with what was stated in Sacrifice, is more about trust in himself. It makes no sense to me at all for Sam to put terms and conditions out there when he hasn't resolved his own problems at this point in the story.

That brings me right back to my original conclusion of the episode having damaged the season's story structure. Even the brothers' relationship, which is either the A plot or the B plot, is now as murky as the rest of the storylines introduced.

The audience was left with Sam leaving his thoughts unstated and Dean saying okay to the unstated, and I want to know why they are in the car together. I would have been much happier if the brothers were separated for most of the rest of the year, because that would made logical sense to me.

Since I do not feel there was a payoff to the story last year; particularly Sam choosing life in Sacrifice, being suicidal in 9.01, and now thinking his life is not as valuable as any other human on Earth and being mad at Dean for thinking it is, I am not as confident as you that there will be much of a payoff to any of Dean's issues or, as a matter of fact, Sam's either. Clearly it is not a good sign if Dean thinking he was poison to everyone around him, leaving home and family (as important as those two things are to Dean) was resolved in two episodes. Sam's issues, on the other hand, have not been made clear or there would not be as much back and forth as has been shown or as has been discussed within the fandom.

See, I think these types of things go beyond the normal plotting issues the show has struggled with, right down to the writers not having a clear idea of what story they are trying to tell.
Ginger
# Ginger 2014-02-01 01:11
Quote:
Ginger, I didn't like the episode either. I was just commenting on one part of your post.

IMO, Sam is mad because Dean betrayed him. He's mad at Dean's idea of family, where anything goes to keep the family together. He's mad at the co-dependency, which ends up hurting others. He thinks the brotherhood is broken and he can't trust Dean in the future, or in hindsight (the church scene)

So far, this is the most Dean centric season we've ever had, so I'm sure there's going to be a payoff to his issues. Frankly, Sam is the one I'm worried about.
The intent on the writers part of Sam's behavior is probably all that you list; however, but I do not see how all of those got consolidated into being a trust issue.

I have never considered Sam's side of the story being told up until this episode to be about trusting Dean. In fact, I think all of Sam's insecurities, starting with what was stated in Sacrifice, is more about trust in himself. It makes no sense to me at all for Sam to put terms and conditions out there when he hasn't resolved his own problems at this point in the story.

That brings me right back to my original conclusion of the episode having damaged the season's story structure. Even the brothers' relationship, which is either the A plot or the B plot, is now as murky as the rest of the storylines introduced.

The audience was left with Sam leaving his thoughts unstated and Dean saying okay to the unstated, and I want to know why they are in the car together. I would have been much happier if the brothers were separated for most of the rest of the year, because that would made logical sense to me.

Since I do not feel there was a payoff to the story last year; particularly Sam choosing life in Sacrifice, being suicidal in 9.01, and now thinking his life is not as valuable as any other human on Earth and being mad at Dean for thinking it is, I am not as confident as you that there will be much of a payoff to any of Dean's issues or, as a matter of fact, Sam's either. Clearly it is not a good sign if Dean thinking he was poison to everyone around him, leaving home and family (as important as those two things are to Dean) was resolved in two episodes. Sam's issues, on the other hand, have not been made clear or there would not be as much back and forth as has been shown or as has been discussed within the fandom.

See, I think these types of things go beyond the normal plotting issues the show has struggled with, right down to the writers not having a clear idea of what story they are trying to tell.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-01 01:39
I think in the church Sam knew he was going to die and he had made peace with it. It was the only way to redeem himself to Dean. I don't think that Sam wanted to die but he really didn't see a way out. Dean came in and threw him a lifeline. But what I always thought that Sam heard from Dean was I trust you above all others. When Sam was in the coma and asking Death to make his death final again he didn't see a way out and he didn't want to be brought back by unnatural means. That road had always lead to someone getting hurt or killed usually by Sam's hand (raising Lucifer, being soulless). Dean came in and threw Sam a lifeline. I don't think that Sam wanted to die so when Dean had a plan he went with it. He trusted Dean. As it turned out Dean didn't trust Sam. That is what Sam is angry about. I think that is why he said in Sharp Teeth that family has gotten them into the situations that they seem to end up in. Sam was really only suicidal when he found out that he had killed Kevin. He thought that finding Gadreel and ending him no matter the cost would alleviate the pain. Castiel talked him off that ledge. Anyway that is my take on Sam's story so far. I don't know where Dean is. One minute he is hell bent for leather to kill Gadreel and then in a blink of eye he is Crowley's tool to kill Abbadon? I couldn't even guess where that is going.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-01 01:39
I think in the church Sam knew he was going to die and he had made peace with it. It was the only way to redeem himself to Dean. I don't think that Sam wanted to die but he really didn't see a way out. Dean came in and threw him a lifeline. But what I always thought that Sam heard from Dean was I trust you above all others. When Sam was in the coma and asking Death to make his death final again he didn't see a way out and he didn't want to be brought back by unnatural means. That road had always lead to someone getting hurt or killed usually by Sam's hand (raising Lucifer, being soulless). Dean came in and threw Sam a lifeline. I don't think that Sam wanted to die so when Dean had a plan he went with it. He trusted Dean. As it turned out Dean didn't trust Sam. That is what Sam is angry about. I think that is why he said in Sharp Teeth that family has gotten them into the situations that they seem to end up in. Sam was really only suicidal when he found out that he had killed Kevin. He thought that finding Gadreel and ending him no matter the cost would alleviate the pain. Castiel talked him off that ledge. Anyway that is my take on Sam's story so far. I don't know where Dean is. One minute he is hell bent for leather to kill Gadreel and then in a blink of eye he is Crowley's tool to kill Abbadon? I couldn't even guess where that is going.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-01 01:42
I think Ginger, that it became a story about Sam trusting Dean after he came to know about zeke/Gadreel ,I think that is why it was not about Sam trusting Dean till then.But now that he knows this ,He is angry about this and as JuliaG said in hindsight about the church scene.
Quote:
The audience was left with Sam leaving his thoughts unstated and Dean saying okay to the unstated, and I want to know why they are in the car together. I would have been much happier if the brothers were separated for most of the rest of the year, because that would made logical sense to me.
Sam mostly has his views unstated but this time it was stated at the end of the episode, may be this expand on it further.I am hoping they will.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-01 01:42
I think Ginger, that it became a story about Sam trusting Dean after he came to know about zeke/Gadreel ,I think that is why it was not about Sam trusting Dean till then.But now that he knows this ,He is angry about this and as JuliaG said in hindsight about the church scene.
Quote:
The audience was left with Sam leaving his thoughts unstated and Dean saying okay to the unstated, and I want to know why they are in the car together. I would have been much happier if the brothers were separated for most of the rest of the year, because that would made logical sense to me.
Sam mostly has his views unstated but this time it was stated at the end of the episode, may be this expand on it further.I am hoping they will.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-01 01:51
Quoting cheryl42:
I think in the church Sam knew he was going to die and he had made peace with it. It was the only way to redeem himself to Dean. I don't think that Sam wanted to die but he really didn't see a way out. Dean came in and threw him a lifeline. But what I always thought that Sam heard from Dean was I trust you above all others. When Sam was in the coma and asking Death to make his death final again he didn't see a way out and he didn't want to be brought back by unnatural means. That road had always lead to someone getting hurt or killed usually by Sam's hand (raising Lucifer, being soulless). Dean came in and threw Sam a lifeline. I don't think that Sam wanted to die so when Dean had a plan he went with it. He trusted Dean. As it turned out Dean didn't trust Sam. That is what Sam is angry about. I think that is why he said in Sharp Teeth that family has gotten them into the situations that they seem to end up in. Sam was really only suicidal when he found out that he had killed Kevin. He thought that finding Gadreel and ending him no matter the cost would alleviate the pain. Castiel talked him off that ledge. Anyway that is my take on Sam's story so far. I don't know where Dean is. One minute he is hell bent for leather to kill Gadreel and then in a blink of eye he is Crowley's tool to kill Abbadon? I couldn't even guess where that is going.

I don't know about redeeming to Dean I don't think it was hinted but I think that Sam has made peace with mortality...his as well as Dean's.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-01 01:51
Quote:
I think in the church Sam knew he was going to die and he had made peace with it. It was the only way to redeem himself to Dean. I don't think that Sam wanted to die but he really didn't see a way out. Dean came in and threw him a lifeline. But what I always thought that Sam heard from Dean was I trust you above all others. When Sam was in the coma and asking Death to make his death final again he didn't see a way out and he didn't want to be brought back by unnatural means. That road had always lead to someone getting hurt or killed usually by Sam's hand (raising Lucifer, being soulless). Dean came in and threw Sam a lifeline. I don't think that Sam wanted to die so when Dean had a plan he went with it. He trusted Dean. As it turned out Dean didn't trust Sam. That is what Sam is angry about. I think that is why he said in Sharp Teeth that family has gotten them into the situations that they seem to end up in. Sam was really only suicidal when he found out that he had killed Kevin. He thought that finding Gadreel and ending him no matter the cost would alleviate the pain. Castiel talked him off that ledge. Anyway that is my take on Sam's story so far. I don't know where Dean is. One minute he is hell bent for leather to kill Gadreel and then in a blink of eye he is Crowley's tool to kill Abbadon? I couldn't even guess where that is going.
I don't know about redeeming to Dean I don't think it was hinted but I think that Sam has made peace with mortality...his as well as Dean's.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-02-01 01:57
I’m afraid I disagree with you in relation to the scene from ‘Sacrifice’ being belittled by what Sam said in this episode. For me, it tied in perfectly, and actually made total sense for Sam to bring it up.

I’m aware that I’m going against common consensus here but I’m not a fan of what Dean said to Sam in the church. Yes, the intention was right, the desperation was palatable and whatnot but the words were completely wrong. For me, it came across as pretty manipulative. Now this is understandable, even expected, considering the situation. It’s a tactic that’s often used to talk people off the ledge initially (“Think of how much your children need you” etc) and then you can work on them from there. After all, thing’s can never be fixed if the person is dead (a mentality adopted by Sam in season 4). However, despite being off the ledge, the issues that drove Sam to the ledge are still there, and were possibly compounded by Dean’s actions in season 9, until they were, in part, tempered by Castiel in 9.10.

I didn’t like what Dean said because, for me, what he said was all about Dean. There was nothing said about Sam’s worth as an individual. There was nothing said about all the good that he did. Dean didn’t address a single issue Sam raised, he merely dismissed it with a ‘You seriously think that? Because none of it – none of it - is true’. Except how could Sam not think that, when Dean himself had been saying it for much of the season, included once again a few hours prior? How could he not think Dean put a vampire (and an angel) before him when what he did is exactly the same thing that Sam did in season 4 but when Sam did it then it was ‘choosing a demon over your own brother’ and it’s called ‘letting Dean down’? Dean pointed out how much he sacrificed for Sam ‘I killed Benny for you’ and how much he was willing to sacrifice for Sam ‘I’m willing to let this bastard and all the sons of bitches who killed Mom walk because of you’ but once again, that centralises Dean and what he sacrifices. It also shows that Dean is willing to let lives be lost because he wants Sam to live, and this is something that Sam is fiercely opposed to because he doesn’t consider himself, or Dean, more important than other people. In that scene, Sam’s worth, Sam’s importance was tied up in whatever value that Dean placed on him. Again, it’s understandable because Dean knows that Sam wouldn't want to live for himself but he would (hopefully) want to live for Dean so he used that card. It’s why I found Castiel’s speech more effective. Not only did he not talk at Sam, he didn’t dismiss what Sam has done, he embraced it. He listened to him and he put Sam himself at the centre of the argument that Sam should want to live; for himself. He didn’t put himself above Sam, which Dean did by not acknowledging a single thing that would have put him on a par with Sam or anything Sam brought up. Castiel said that Sam should live because he himself is important, not because he is solely important to someone else.

However, what Sam and Dean chose to do in the church goes directly against what they do as hunters. Okay, we’ve seen how self-sacrificia l they are from the start ie Sam placing himself between the wendigo and the innocents in season 1. They, as all hunters have to be, were willing to give their lives to help other people, because that’s just what they do. However, we’ve seen that Sam and Dean don’t do that anymore because they’ve made the priority each other’s lives, and not the lives of other people ie what they want over what other people need.

Realistically, if it were not Sam in that room, if it were Castiel or Kevin or Benny or even Dean himself, then Dean would not have tried to stop them, the trials would have been finished, the gates of hell would have been closed and countless lives would be saved. If Sam had not been on the brink, if he had been in a logical state of mind (as he was in Swan Song) and he had chosen to finish the trials, then the gates of hell would have been closed and, again, countless lives would have been saved. However, Sam was not able to think logically. Instead of being able to think that this needed to be done to save lives (as they thought back in the early seasons ), he was thinking that this needs to be done so that he won’t ‘let Dean down’ again ie he didn’t do what Dean wanted him to do, or he felt Dean needed him to do in the past. So Sam’s decision to ‘let go’ wasn’t based on doing the right thing but based on doing what Dean wanted him to do. So Sam chose Dean, and logically, as a hunter and as a man, that was the wrong choice.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-02-01 01:57
I’m afraid I disagree with you in relation to the scene from ‘Sacrifice’ being belittled by what Sam said in this episode. For me, it tied in perfectly, and actually made total sense for Sam to bring it up.

I’m aware that I’m going against common consensus here but I’m not a fan of what Dean said to Sam in the church. Yes, the intention was right, the desperation was palatable and whatnot but the words were completely wrong. For me, it came across as pretty manipulative. Now this is understandable, even expected, considering the situation. It’s a tactic that’s often used to talk people off the ledge initially (“Think of how much your children need you” etc) and then you can work on them from there. After all, thing’s can never be fixed if the person is dead (a mentality adopted by Sam in season 4). However, despite being off the ledge, the issues that drove Sam to the ledge are still there, and were possibly compounded by Dean’s actions in season 9, until they were, in part, tempered by Castiel in 9.10.

I didn’t like what Dean said because, for me, what he said was all about Dean. There was nothing said about Sam’s worth as an individual. There was nothing said about all the good that he did. Dean didn’t address a single issue Sam raised, he merely dismissed it with a ‘You seriously think that? Because none of it – none of it - is true’. Except how could Sam not think that, when Dean himself had been saying it for much of the season, included once again a few hours prior? How could he not think Dean put a vampire (and an angel) before him when what he did is exactly the same thing that Sam did in season 4 but when Sam did it then it was ‘choosing a demon over your own brother’ and it’s called ‘letting Dean down’? Dean pointed out how much he sacrificed for Sam ‘I killed Benny for you’ and how much he was willing to sacrifice for Sam ‘I’m willing to let this bastard and all the sons of bitches who killed Mom walk because of you’ but once again, that centralises Dean and what he sacrifices. It also shows that Dean is willing to let lives be lost because he wants Sam to live, and this is something that Sam is fiercely opposed to because he doesn’t consider himself, or Dean, more important than other people. In that scene, Sam’s worth, Sam’s importance was tied up in whatever value that Dean placed on him. Again, it’s understandable because Dean knows that Sam wouldn't want to live for himself but he would (hopefully) want to live for Dean so he used that card. It’s why I found Castiel’s speech more effective. Not only did he not talk at Sam, he didn’t dismiss what Sam has done, he embraced it. He listened to him and he put Sam himself at the centre of the argument that Sam should want to live; for himself. He didn’t put himself above Sam, which Dean did by not acknowledging a single thing that would have put him on a par with Sam or anything Sam brought up. Castiel said that Sam should live because he himself is important, not because he is solely important to someone else.

However, what Sam and Dean chose to do in the church goes directly against what they do as hunters. Okay, we’ve seen how self-sacrificia l they are from the start ie Sam placing himself between the wendigo and the innocents in season 1. They, as all hunters have to be, were willing to give their lives to help other people, because that’s just what they do. However, we’ve seen that Sam and Dean don’t do that anymore because they’ve made the priority each other’s lives, and not the lives of other people ie what they want over what other people need.

Realistically, if it were not Sam in that room, if it were Castiel or Kevin or Benny or even Dean himself, then Dean would not have tried to stop them, the trials would have been finished, the gates of hell would have been closed and countless lives would be saved. If Sam had not been on the brink, if he had been in a logical state of mind (as he was in Swan Song) and he had chosen to finish the trials, then the gates of hell would have been closed and, again, countless lives would have been saved. However, Sam was not able to think logically. Instead of being able to think that this needed to be done to save lives (as they thought back in the early seasons ), he was thinking that this needs to be done so that he won’t ‘let Dean down’ again ie he didn’t do what Dean wanted him to do, or he felt Dean needed him to do in the past. So Sam’s decision to ‘let go’ wasn’t based on doing the right thing but based on doing what Dean wanted him to do. So Sam chose Dean, and logically, as a hunter and as a man, that was the wrong choice.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-02-01 02:03
This ‘pick my brother over everything else’ mentality has evolved into a serious problem, and is making Sam and Dean damaging and redundant as hunters because they are causing more harm than good. Their sacrifices in earlier seasons meant they’d throw themselves in front of a werewolf or something small like that but it’s gone beyond that now. The sacrifices nowadays are bigger, badder and more damaging because they now have the ability/knowled ge etc to do things that they could not do in early seasons so the consequences of their choices were not as huge. Dean said that they’ve changed the rulebook so that things that were right were wrong etc. The rulebook hasn’t changed. The rulebook is the same as it always was, it’s just that now they can interpret the rules different because they have new knowledge and new skills. It’s like last season, their rulebook stated that they don’t try and bring each other back and Sam, Dean and Bobby interpreted that rule differently, but the core rule didn’t change.

I mean, we’ve seen on this show that people can now be brought back in less time and with less effort than it would take to make a cup of tea. Sam and Dean know that, Dean utilises it, and it’s only for Sam. There has never been an attempt made to bring back Adam, or John, or Bobby or Kevin or Benny and all of them are considered ‘family’. Jeez, when Castiel was left in Purgatory there was no attempt made to break him out. (Why not? Is it for Sam, and Sam only, that the ends justify the means and the consequences are immaterial?) And there have been no consequences to the population at large (the population that Sam and Dean are meant to be trying to save) of not trying to bring these individuals back.

Last season Sam believed Dean was dead. The easiest thing for him to do would have been to run to a demon or an angel or a supernatural and start making deals out the wazoo. He’s still Sam Winchester, his name and his history would pretty much guarantee him an audience with whomever he wanted. He chose to not bring Dean back. Whether this was done to just stir crap between them or because the mentality that drove that decision is coming to light in season 9, I’m not sure. I’m veering towards the second option at the moment (though that is more hope than expectation.... ..)

And this is what (for me), Sam needs Dean to realise. They can’t keep putting themselves and what they want above the lives of other people, not if they’re going to stay hunting. Dean thinks they can get past it by putting a few W’s on the board, but they can’t, not while the brother before other mentality they have is what dictates their choices. It’s gotten to a stage where it’s ridiculous that Dean wants Sam to hunt, because hunting will inevitably end Sam's life, but Dean also wants to keep Sam alive. So these two desires are unworkable at the moment. There does need to be some iron clad terms laid down, otherwise the same thing will happen, with more consequences, the next time Sam dies (and Sam will die again).

That is, for me, what Sam meant when he said ‘We don’t see things the same any more’. It’s not safe for Sam and Dean to hunt together if Dean’s priority is one person, if he is willing to sacrifice all, and put other lives in danger for one person. It’s not that they don’t see family the same way anymore but it is becoming increasing difficult to see hunting as brothers (brothers in the SPN sense of the world, with deals and whatnot, not physical as in with blood) as a viable option. I’m sure Sam would have no problem assuming the role of baby brother and all the constraints that brings were they not hunting, were there not peoples lives at risk; but they are. Sam can trust Dean to do what’s best for him (Sam) but he can’t trust him to do what’s best for other people. He can’t trust him to do what’s best as a hunter, not while he only considers Sam his brother.

I don’t see any anger in what Sam said. I’m sure he is angry, and I'm sure it would be quite cathartic to just rip into Dean, but I don’t find anger evident in the words he spoke. I think he's being quite careful to not get angry. He listened to Dean, he didn’t shout or roar and he showed understanding of, and empathy with, him. Sam being angry is actually what Dean wants, because that is something Dean can work with or pass off. Being angry would probably suit Dean because he feels that once the anger abates then they are back to as they were ‘a few W’s on the board.....’. Sam can’t afford to get angry, not if he wants Dean to listen, and he needs Dean to listen. He needs Dean to understand. However, like I said on another article he can’t just come right out and state it ‘This is the problem’ because that can be easily denied or brushed aside. Dean needs to realise and to see, not just be told.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-02-01 02:03
This ‘pick my brother over everything else’ mentality has evolved into a serious problem, and is making Sam and Dean damaging and redundant as hunters because they are causing more harm than good. Their sacrifices in earlier seasons meant they’d throw themselves in front of a werewolf or something small like that but it’s gone beyond that now. The sacrifices nowadays are bigger, badder and more damaging because they now have the ability/knowled ge etc to do things that they could not do in early seasons so the consequences of their choices were not as huge. Dean said that they’ve changed the rulebook so that things that were right were wrong etc. The rulebook hasn’t changed. The rulebook is the same as it always was, it’s just that now they can interpret the rules different because they have new knowledge and new skills. It’s like last season, their rulebook stated that they don’t try and bring each other back and Sam, Dean and Bobby interpreted that rule differently, but the core rule didn’t change.

I mean, we’ve seen on this show that people can now be brought back in less time and with less effort than it would take to make a cup of tea. Sam and Dean know that, Dean utilises it, and it’s only for Sam. There has never been an attempt made to bring back Adam, or John, or Bobby or Kevin or Benny and all of them are considered ‘family’. Jeez, when Castiel was left in Purgatory there was no attempt made to break him out. (Why not? Is it for Sam, and Sam only, that the ends justify the means and the consequences are immaterial?) And there have been no consequences to the population at large (the population that Sam and Dean are meant to be trying to save) of not trying to bring these individuals back.

Last season Sam believed Dean was dead. The easiest thing for him to do would have been to run to a demon or an angel or a supernatural and start making deals out the wazoo. He’s still Sam Winchester, his name and his history would pretty much guarantee him an audience with whomever he wanted. He chose to not bring Dean back. Whether this was done to just stir crap between them or because the mentality that drove that decision is coming to light in season 9, I’m not sure. I’m veering towards the second option at the moment (though that is more hope than expectation.... ..)

And this is what (for me), Sam needs Dean to realise. They can’t keep putting themselves and what they want above the lives of other people, not if they’re going to stay hunting. Dean thinks they can get past it by putting a few W’s on the board, but they can’t, not while the brother before other mentality they have is what dictates their choices. It’s gotten to a stage where it’s ridiculous that Dean wants Sam to hunt, because hunting will inevitably end Sam's life, but Dean also wants to keep Sam alive. So these two desires are unworkable at the moment. There does need to be some iron clad terms laid down, otherwise the same thing will happen, with more consequences, the next time Sam dies (and Sam will die again).

That is, for me, what Sam meant when he said ‘We don’t see things the same any more’. It’s not safe for Sam and Dean to hunt together if Dean’s priority is one person, if he is willing to sacrifice all, and put other lives in danger for one person. It’s not that they don’t see family the same way anymore but it is becoming increasing difficult to see hunting as brothers (brothers in the SPN sense of the world, with deals and whatnot, not physical as in with blood) as a viable option. I’m sure Sam would have no problem assuming the role of baby brother and all the constraints that brings were they not hunting, were there not peoples lives at risk; but they are. Sam can trust Dean to do what’s best for him (Sam) but he can’t trust him to do what’s best for other people. He can’t trust him to do what’s best as a hunter, not while he only considers Sam his brother.

I don’t see any anger in what Sam said. I’m sure he is angry, and I'm sure it would be quite cathartic to just rip into Dean, but I don’t find anger evident in the words he spoke. I think he's being quite careful to not get angry. He listened to Dean, he didn’t shout or roar and he showed understanding of, and empathy with, him. Sam being angry is actually what Dean wants, because that is something Dean can work with or pass off. Being angry would probably suit Dean because he feels that once the anger abates then they are back to as they were ‘a few W’s on the board.....’. Sam can’t afford to get angry, not if he wants Dean to listen, and he needs Dean to listen. He needs Dean to understand. However, like I said on another article he can’t just come right out and state it ‘This is the problem’ because that can be easily denied or brushed aside. Dean needs to realise and to see, not just be told.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-01 02:12
#113anonymousM Sam.."you want to know what I confessed in there? What my greatest sin was? Was how many times I let you down. I can't do that again." I took that to mean that he needed to redeem himself to Dean for all of his past mistakes that Dean brought up all through S8. Closing the gates of hell even if it meant his death was going to be his redemption. He was going to fail Dean again.
Tim the Enchanter thank you, my take exactly.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-01 02:12
#113anonymousM Sam.."you want to know what I confessed in there? What my greatest sin was? Was how many times I let you down. I can't do that again." I took that to mean that he needed to redeem himself to Dean for all of his past mistakes that Dean brought up all through S8. Closing the gates of hell even if it meant his death was going to be his redemption. He was going to fail Dean again.
Tim the Enchanter thank you, my take exactly.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-01 02:16
Sorry "wasn't going to fail Dean again"
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-01 02:16
Sorry "wasn't going to fail Dean again"
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-01 02:22
Quoting cheryl42:
#113anonymousM Sam.."you want to know what I confessed in there? What my greatest sin was? Was how many times I let you down. I can't do that again." I took that to mean that he needed to redeem himself to Dean for all of his past mistakes that Dean brought up all through S8. Closing the gates of hell even if it meant his death was going to be his redemption. He was going to fail Dean again.
Tim the Enchanter thank you, my take exactly.


May be..but still not convinced.
Tim the Enchanter articulate as always.Pleasure reading your views
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-01 02:22
Quote:
#113anonymousM Sam.."you want to know what I confessed in there? What my greatest sin was? Was how many times I let you down. I can't do that again." I took that to mean that he needed to redeem himself to Dean for all of his past mistakes that Dean brought up all through S8. Closing the gates of hell even if it meant his death was going to be his redemption. He was going to fail Dean again.
Tim the Enchanter thank you, my take exactly.
May be..but still not convinced.
Tim the Enchanter articulate as always.Pleasure reading your views
Ginger
# Ginger 2014-02-01 03:09
Quoting anonymousN:
I think Ginger, that it became a story about Sam trusting Dean after he came to know about zeke/Gadreel ,I think that is why it was not about Sam trusting Dean till then.But now that he knows this ,He is angry about this and as JuliaG said in hindsight about the church scene. .


That just muddles things further, though, because in First Born, immediately preceding this one, Sam's response to Cas reminding Sam that he and Dean chose each other, which Sam confirms and says (paraphrasing) 'and then Dean made a choice for me.'

When Cas tries to explain with, "What Dean did...," Sam cuts him off and says "it doesn't matter what Dean did,' that he (Sam) can put a stop to this -- whatever "this" is -- angels murdering people, IMO -- and then Sam goes on to talk about payback to Gadreel, which is what Sam knows Dean is off doing.

From that background, if what you say is how the trust issue came about in the writers' room, I have to say that was a perfunctory insert on the writer's part.

It makes no sense to me for the brothers to be back working as a team when they clearly are far from it and clearly, as characters, have not yet identified their own issues to be worked through this season.

I felt that them getting back together now came off as pretty blatant fanservicing,
Ginger
# Ginger 2014-02-01 03:09
Quote:
I think Ginger, that it became a story about Sam trusting Dean after he came to know about zeke/Gadreel ,I think that is why it was not about Sam trusting Dean till then.But now that he knows this ,He is angry about this and as JuliaG said in hindsight about the church scene. .
That just muddles things further, though, because in First Born, immediately preceding this one, Sam's response to Cas reminding Sam that he and Dean chose each other, which Sam confirms and says (paraphrasing) 'and then Dean made a choice for me.'

When Cas tries to explain with, "What Dean did...," Sam cuts him off and says "it doesn't matter what Dean did,' that he (Sam) can put a stop to this -- whatever "this" is -- angels murdering people, IMO -- and then Sam goes on to talk about payback to Gadreel, which is what Sam knows Dean is off doing.

From that background, if what you say is how the trust issue came about in the writers' room, I have to say that was a perfunctory insert on the writer's part.

It makes no sense to me for the brothers to be back working as a team when they clearly are far from it and clearly, as characters, have not yet identified their own issues to be worked through this season.

I felt that them getting back together now came off as pretty blatant fanservicing,
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-01 04:26
Quoting JuliaG:
Ginger, I didn't like the episode either. I was just commenting on one part of your post.

IMO, Sam is mad because Dean betrayed him. He's mad at Dean's idea of family, where anything goes to keep the family together. He's mad at the co-dependency, which ends up hurting others. He thinks the brotherhood is broken and he can't trust Dean in the future, or in hindsight (the church scene)

So far, this is the most Dean centric season we've ever had, so I'm sure there's going to be a payoff to his issues. Frankly, Sam is the one I'm worried about.

It does have alot to do with trust which has been something often brought up where Sam is concerned , .Lack of trust from Dean hence why we got the line ' How many times I have let you down ' trust is something that has been drummed into Sam esp over recent years,

Dean made a choice that took trust away for Sam. Someone who has experience of possession before and when possessed by Meg ended up killing a hunter and nearly harming Jo and now Kevin is dead because of being possessed. Sam carry's scars as much has Dean does and when Gadreel was allowed to possess Sam I think alot of those scars were reopened . I certainly do not think Sam gets the best writing but at the same time if you understand Sam's past and the effect on him it does not take a flying leap to understand where these feelings are coming from.

I am not sure having Sam get in the Impala at the end was the right choice it is like we will have Sam say these things but then get him to seat in the front seat again. But that was just a personal bug bear of mine .

I do agree this season has been very Dean -centric which is why Sam's scenes are more important and scenes that hold steady to what he is thinking and feeling.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-01 04:26
Quote:
Ginger, I didn't like the episode either. I was just commenting on one part of your post.

IMO, Sam is mad because Dean betrayed him. He's mad at Dean's idea of family, where anything goes to keep the family together. He's mad at the co-dependency, which ends up hurting others. He thinks the brotherhood is broken and he can't trust Dean in the future, or in hindsight (the church scene)

So far, this is the most Dean centric season we've ever had, so I'm sure there's going to be a payoff to his issues. Frankly, Sam is the one I'm worried about.
It does have alot to do with trust which has been something often brought up where Sam is concerned , .Lack of trust from Dean hence why we got the line ' How many times I have let you down ' trust is something that has been drummed into Sam esp over recent years,

Dean made a choice that took trust away for Sam. Someone who has experience of possession before and when possessed by Meg ended up killing a hunter and nearly harming Jo and now Kevin is dead because of being possessed. Sam carry's scars as much has Dean does and when Gadreel was allowed to possess Sam I think alot of those scars were reopened . I certainly do not think Sam gets the best writing but at the same time if you understand Sam's past and the effect on him it does not take a flying leap to understand where these feelings are coming from.

I am not sure having Sam get in the Impala at the end was the right choice it is like we will have Sam say these things but then get him to seat in the front seat again. But that was just a personal bug bear of mine .

I do agree this season has been very Dean -centric which is why Sam's scenes are more important and scenes that hold steady to what he is thinking and feeling.
E
# E 2014-02-01 07:58
Tim, great post as usual. I just love your take on things. You have such great insight. I agree with your notion that this is indeed all about trust for Sam right now. Dean has voiced distrust with Sam going all the way back to 1.1 due to Sam's desire to go to college and to leave the hunting life. That one act before the series ever started set up trust issues between the brothers that have lasted until today. I feel that in some ways Sam has been trying to win back Dean's trust in him since they teamed back up as hunters at the very start of the series, and that he has been trying repeatedly with little success ever since. Dean has withheld his trust from Sam on numerous occasions over the series; sometimes with good reason (ruby, drinking demon blood etc) and sometimes without good reason (going to college, because he was soulless against his will, because he was hallucinating hell, because he trusted a monster he knew from his childhood, because he thought Dean was dead last season etc). So, Dean's trust, the possession of which is Sam's greatest priority and desire as a little brother, is a fickle and inconstant thing. Dean trusts and then he doesn't trust; he says he trusts, but doesn't mean it or his actions contradict his verbal avowals of trust; he withholds his trust as punishment. It's curious to me that in all this time that Sam has never once not trusted Dean, until now. He's forgiven Dean every transgression (as he has with Cas as well) and very rarely holds grudges, but this time, he isn't seeking in Dean's trust, he is asking Dean to seek his. Its a very interesting role reversal given how important to Sam Dean's trust has always been to him.

I both agree and disagree that the conversation in the church in "Sacrifice" has been ruined. It hasn't been ruined for me, because even though as Tim observed, Dean didn't address one thing Sam said, I believe that Dean was sincere, that he meant what he said, that he does love Sam and puts his life above all others. But that ain't trust folks. Sam was talking about trust in that moment and Dean was talking about love and they are not the same thing. I think that conversation in 8x23 has been ruined for Sam. He was asking for Dean's trust and he thought Dean gave it to him, only to find that Dean's very next action went against everything that Sam stood for. So, for Sam those words of Dean's in the church now mean nothing to him. He is so incredibly disillusioned; and maybe this is as necessary to Sam as it is to Dean to weather Sam's hurt and anger. Sam is seeing his brother as an ordinary man who makes mistakes for maybe the first time in his life. And maybe Dean is finally seeing Sam as a man and a hunter instead of his forgiving little brother whom he can and needs to make decisions for.
E
# E 2014-02-01 07:58
Tim, great post as usual. I just love your take on things. You have such great insight. I agree with your notion that this is indeed all about trust for Sam right now. Dean has voiced distrust with Sam going all the way back to 1.1 due to Sam's desire to go to college and to leave the hunting life. That one act before the series ever started set up trust issues between the brothers that have lasted until today. I feel that in some ways Sam has been trying to win back Dean's trust in him since they teamed back up as hunters at the very start of the series, and that he has been trying repeatedly with little success ever since. Dean has withheld his trust from Sam on numerous occasions over the series; sometimes with good reason (ruby, drinking demon blood etc) and sometimes without good reason (going to college, because he was soulless against his will, because he was hallucinating hell, because he trusted a monster he knew from his childhood, because he thought Dean was dead last season etc). So, Dean's trust, the possession of which is Sam's greatest priority and desire as a little brother, is a fickle and inconstant thing. Dean trusts and then he doesn't trust; he says he trusts, but doesn't mean it or his actions contradict his verbal avowals of trust; he withholds his trust as punishment. It's curious to me that in all this time that Sam has never once not trusted Dean, until now. He's forgiven Dean every transgression (as he has with Cas as well) and very rarely holds grudges, but this time, he isn't seeking in Dean's trust, he is asking Dean to seek his. Its a very interesting role reversal given how important to Sam Dean's trust has always been to him.

I both agree and disagree that the conversation in the church in "Sacrifice" has been ruined. It hasn't been ruined for me, because even though as Tim observed, Dean didn't address one thing Sam said, I believe that Dean was sincere, that he meant what he said, that he does love Sam and puts his life above all others. But that ain't trust folks. Sam was talking about trust in that moment and Dean was talking about love and they are not the same thing. I think that conversation in 8x23 has been ruined for Sam. He was asking for Dean's trust and he thought Dean gave it to him, only to find that Dean's very next action went against everything that Sam stood for. So, for Sam those words of Dean's in the church now mean nothing to him. He is so incredibly disillusioned; and maybe this is as necessary to Sam as it is to Dean to weather Sam's hurt and anger. Sam is seeing his brother as an ordinary man who makes mistakes for maybe the first time in his life. And maybe Dean is finally seeing Sam as a man and a hunter instead of his forgiving little brother whom he can and needs to make decisions for.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-01 08:08
Quoting alice:
This thread is open again. I'm now going through every comment (especially the unpublished ones) and I WILL edit anything that hints character bashing, insulting other posters, or any bitter rants in general. This discussion was civil for a while, and it's going to remain that way.

I just opened this thread for those of you that want to vent:

http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/article-archives/lets-discuss/18331-let-s-discuss-the-supernatural-i-m-not-happy-thread

Thanks for the edits Alice, I really appreciate what you do here.
Another eloquent post Tim that I think I can honestly say I agree with for the most part
E, as usual we are in agreement as well.
I was thinking about sam and how much he has matured especially in the last two seasons. I've also noticed that of late show has been delving on his deepest desire from dean, trust. And I got to wondering what finally brought Sam to that place where he has the courage enough to finally open up to dean about needing to fix what is essentially wrong. Sam confessed to Dean in tge that he couldn't go on a heroic quest because he was unclean. As a small boy he knew there was a darkness in him that made him feel impure. I tend to think that this is the core reason why Sam had always sought to be normal, to try to escape what was inside him. In addition to dean's role as sam's parent, I feel that sam's absolute need for dean's faith and trust stem from his belief that he is inherently no good. Sam's faith and trust in dean has always been unwavering and his need to please dean is very strong. There have been so many instances where Sam remained silent and didn't fight back when dean took both physical and verbal shots at him. I can't help but wonder if part of that is because Sam believed himself unworthy due to what he knew was inside him. As he was purified from the trials, that poison inside him burned away. By sacrifice Sam was so emotionally and physically drained that he no longer was able to keep from dean his deepest darkest fear, that being dean' s lack of faith in Sam for always letting him down, for dean"'s trust in monsters and angels and not his own brother. I do feel for Sam it's always been about deans trust and forgiveness for failing him. For being tainted. Now that Sam is free of that taint he believed made him impure and unworthy, I can't help but wonder if that plays a part in what has enabled Sam to deal with dean's betrayal in an honest way. To be able to confront dean that there is work to be done on their relationship and truths about both of them that they must deal with and change to make their relationship as brothers work. I'm not saying sam's growth didn't come from everything they have been through, especially most recently, and this was most likely the event that broke the proverbial camel's back.......stil l I can't help but wonder if maybe it's possible that the knowledge of Sam no longer having demon blood in him assisted in giving him the courage to open up to dean and initiate the process of change in them both....

And another thinky thought in regards to sam's state of mind regarding Kevin. I know that Sam feeling responsible for Kevin's death is just who Sam is. Taking responsibility even though it wasn't his fault, unfortunately that's a Winchester trait both Sam and dean share. Here's what I was wondering. Maybe at this time Sam is unable to separate from the guilt he feels. What I mean is...Sam is incorporating into his own memory gad's memories. So maybe he is incorporating the feelings that come with those memories. Gad left grace behind. As a side note, gad wasn't happy about killing. I can't help but wonder if gads thoughts are meshing into SAMs and Sam is feeling what gad was feeling. So I wonder if at this juncture Sam is actually unable to separate gads actions and feelings about them with his own.

Just a thought
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-01 08:08
Quote:
This thread is open again. I'm now going through every comment (especially the unpublished ones) and I WILL edit anything that hints character bashing, insulting other posters, or any bitter rants in general. This discussion was civil for a while, and it's going to remain that way.

I just opened this thread for those of you that want to vent:

http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/article-archives/lets-discuss/18331-let-s-discuss-the-supernatural-i-m-not-happy-thread
Thanks for the edits Alice, I really appreciate what you do here.
Another eloquent post Tim that I think I can honestly say I agree with for the most part
E, as usual we are in agreement as well.
I was thinking about sam and how much he has matured especially in the last two seasons. I've also noticed that of late show has been delving on his deepest desire from dean, trust. And I got to wondering what finally brought Sam to that place where he has the courage enough to finally open up to dean about needing to fix what is essentially wrong. Sam confessed to Dean in tge that he couldn't go on a heroic quest because he was unclean. As a small boy he knew there was a darkness in him that made him feel impure. I tend to think that this is the core reason why Sam had always sought to be normal, to try to escape what was inside him. In addition to dean's role as sam's parent, I feel that sam's absolute need for dean's faith and trust stem from his belief that he is inherently no good. Sam's faith and trust in dean has always been unwavering and his need to please dean is very strong. There have been so many instances where Sam remained silent and didn't fight back when dean took both physical and verbal shots at him. I can't help but wonder if part of that is because Sam believed himself unworthy due to what he knew was inside him. As he was purified from the trials, that poison inside him burned away. By sacrifice Sam was so emotionally and physically drained that he no longer was able to keep from dean his deepest darkest fear, that being dean' s lack of faith in Sam for always letting him down, for dean"'s trust in monsters and angels and not his own brother. I do feel for Sam it's always been about deans trust and forgiveness for failing him. For being tainted. Now that Sam is free of that taint he believed made him impure and unworthy, I can't help but wonder if that plays a part in what has enabled Sam to deal with dean's betrayal in an honest way. To be able to confront dean that there is work to be done on their relationship and truths about both of them that they must deal with and change to make their relationship as brothers work. I'm not saying sam's growth didn't come from everything they have been through, especially most recently, and this was most likely the event that broke the proverbial camel's back.......stil l I can't help but wonder if maybe it's possible that the knowledge of Sam no longer having demon blood in him assisted in giving him the courage to open up to dean and initiate the process of change in them both....

And another thinky thought in regards to sam's state of mind regarding Kevin. I know that Sam feeling responsible for Kevin's death is just who Sam is. Taking responsibility even though it wasn't his fault, unfortunately that's a Winchester trait both Sam and dean share. Here's what I was wondering. Maybe at this time Sam is unable to separate from the guilt he feels. What I mean is...Sam is incorporating into his own memory gad's memories. So maybe he is incorporating the feelings that come with those memories. Gad left grace behind. As a side note, gad wasn't happy about killing. I can't help but wonder if gads thoughts are meshing into SAMs and Sam is feeling what gad was feeling. So I wonder if at this juncture Sam is actually unable to separate gads actions and feelings about them with his own.

Just a thought
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-01 08:28
My problem with the current dust up started with 8.1. I saw the logic very clearly on Sam not looking for Dean.
First who the hell could even guess where Dean was or whether he was dead or alive! Sam was alone with no real beginning to even start looking for Dean. Second Dean is nothing if not resourceful and he did disappear with an angel so if I had been Sam I would have hoped that if Dean were alive and needed help he would get a message to me some how, otherwise he's another hunter dying in the line of duty. Sad but that's what happens to hunters. Dean got his feelings hurt because Sam did the logical thing but he did get out of purgatory so boohoo Dean get over it. What I couldn't understand was why Sam didn't attempt to save Kevin who he knew was taken by Crowley before he took off.
Yes, I know he was was grieving for Dean and probably still for Bobby and Cas but he is a hunter after all and I'm disappointed but it turns out Kevin survived so boohoo for me, get over it. The rest of the season was a mixed bag for me but not unhappy as a fan. I was not moved by the final scene in "Sacrifice" because I thought that what Dean said when he answered Sam's question didn't address Sam's question. I wanted Dean to say specifically that Sam hadn't let him down and the rest of the speech would have been fine with me. I feel like a jaded and picky fan. Another boohoo for me, get over it. Next season all will be well with the brothers and I need to chill out.

In 9.1 When Dean made the choice to save Sam by having him possessed he saw the negative consequences as only affecting him and Sam. Sam would be angry about the possession but alive to say so and a price Dean was willing to pay. Gadreel seemed sincere and then saved Cas without being asked and Charlie when asked. Two people still alive because of Dean's decision so bonus here. But Dean's spidey senses are starting to tingle because Gadreel seems to be actively not wanting to leave Sam and Dean is worried he can't get to Sam anymore or get Gadreel out. Dean's questioning of Gadreel starts taking a harder line. Still the only obvious threat is to Sam and Gadreel taking off in his body, not to anyone else. Then everything goes to hell.

Now in my opinion both Sam and Dean should be wondering why Gadreel killed Kevin and what the big picture is here. They haven't even figured out Metatron is back on earth yet. Instead they are both being self-centered and needy about their relationship problems. Second guessing each other's decisions isn't productive. What's done is done and can't be undone. Dean didn't think he was saving Sam's life above everyone else's because he didn't foresee it involving anyone else but him and Sam. Sam is only alive to fight the good fight and be pissed because Dean did save his life and IMO it was worth saving under the initial premise.

Sam and Dean's talk last week just seemed like another "welcome to the blame game" round to me and totally crossing a line in the show. Dean not saying why he made the choice he made to keep Sam alive and acting like he deserves all the anger and blame and Sam blaming their being family as the root of all evil and not the fact that they both have made choices that had unforeseen consequences. I'm losing respect for both Sam and Dean quite frankly. Get couples counseling if you must but get on with the bigger picture here guys cause it really shouldn't be all about you or quit hunting.

Alice-I realize now this would be better in the unhappy thread. Can you move it?
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-01 08:28
My problem with the current dust up started with 8.1. I saw the logic very clearly on Sam not looking for Dean.
First who the hell could even guess where Dean was or whether he was dead or alive! Sam was alone with no real beginning to even start looking for Dean. Second Dean is nothing if not resourceful and he did disappear with an angel so if I had been Sam I would have hoped that if Dean were alive and needed help he would get a message to me some how, otherwise he's another hunter dying in the line of duty. Sad but that's what happens to hunters. Dean got his feelings hurt because Sam did the logical thing but he did get out of purgatory so boohoo Dean get over it. What I couldn't understand was why Sam didn't attempt to save Kevin who he knew was taken by Crowley before he took off.
Yes, I know he was was grieving for Dean and probably still for Bobby and Cas but he is a hunter after all and I'm disappointed but it turns out Kevin survived so boohoo for me, get over it. The rest of the season was a mixed bag for me but not unhappy as a fan. I was not moved by the final scene in "Sacrifice" because I thought that what Dean said when he answered Sam's question didn't address Sam's question. I wanted Dean to say specifically that Sam hadn't let him down and the rest of the speech would have been fine with me. I feel like a jaded and picky fan. Another boohoo for me, get over it. Next season all will be well with the brothers and I need to chill out.

In 9.1 When Dean made the choice to save Sam by having him possessed he saw the negative consequences as only affecting him and Sam. Sam would be angry about the possession but alive to say so and a price Dean was willing to pay. Gadreel seemed sincere and then saved Cas without being asked and Charlie when asked. Two people still alive because of Dean's decision so bonus here. But Dean's spidey senses are starting to tingle because Gadreel seems to be actively not wanting to leave Sam and Dean is worried he can't get to Sam anymore or get Gadreel out. Dean's questioning of Gadreel starts taking a harder line. Still the only obvious threat is to Sam and Gadreel taking off in his body, not to anyone else. Then everything goes to hell.

Now in my opinion both Sam and Dean should be wondering why Gadreel killed Kevin and what the big picture is here. They haven't even figured out Metatron is back on earth yet. Instead they are both being self-centered and needy about their relationship problems. Second guessing each other's decisions isn't productive. What's done is done and can't be undone. Dean didn't think he was saving Sam's life above everyone else's because he didn't foresee it involving anyone else but him and Sam. Sam is only alive to fight the good fight and be pissed because Dean did save his life and IMO it was worth saving under the initial premise.

Sam and Dean's talk last week just seemed like another "welcome to the blame game" round to me and totally crossing a line in the show. Dean not saying why he made the choice he made to keep Sam alive and acting like he deserves all the anger and blame and Sam blaming their being family as the root of all evil and not the fact that they both have made choices that had unforeseen consequences. I'm losing respect for both Sam and Dean quite frankly. Get couples counseling if you must but get on with the bigger picture here guys cause it really shouldn't be all about you or quit hunting.

Alice-I realize now this would be better in the unhappy thread. Can you move it?
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-01 09:46
Kevin's death was happening because a dire consequence had to further Sam and deans story. It's his death that sets in motion sam's guilt. You add that to his feelings of hurt and betrayal, mix in extreme guilt from dean and you got the recipe for both boys finally dealing with long old issues and fixing their relationship. It's a recipe for a mature stronger brother bond based on the men, no brothers, they are now, and not the dysfunctional role of parent/brother it has been.

That being said I don't feel dean's part in Kevin's death is because he let gad in Sam. I believe metatron would have killed Kevin no matter where he was because he was an actual threat. If he couldn't flip a switch in heaven, metatron most likely would have killed all the prophets, IMO. No dean is responsible because he didn't tell Kevin the truth as soon as he found out from cas that zeke was dead. Kevin asked dean why he wanted the spell and at this point there was no reason not to tell the truth. Much like his father, dean held onto this need to know notion crap. If dean had told Kevin the truth, he would have known to be leery and stay away from Sam. IMO the lie killed Kevin....in hindsight I think it was necessary. It's the catalyst that will initiate the change the boys need to make....

Ironically gad told dean it was for the greater good.....and I believe he's right about that
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-01 09:46
Kevin's death was happening because a dire consequence had to further Sam and deans story. It's his death that sets in motion sam's guilt. You add that to his feelings of hurt and betrayal, mix in extreme guilt from dean and you got the recipe for both boys finally dealing with long old issues and fixing their relationship. It's a recipe for a mature stronger brother bond based on the men, no brothers, they are now, and not the dysfunctional role of parent/brother it has been.

That being said I don't feel dean's part in Kevin's death is because he let gad in Sam. I believe metatron would have killed Kevin no matter where he was because he was an actual threat. If he couldn't flip a switch in heaven, metatron most likely would have killed all the prophets, IMO. No dean is responsible because he didn't tell Kevin the truth as soon as he found out from cas that zeke was dead. Kevin asked dean why he wanted the spell and at this point there was no reason not to tell the truth. Much like his father, dean held onto this need to know notion crap. If dean had told Kevin the truth, he would have known to be leery and stay away from Sam. IMO the lie killed Kevin....in hindsight I think it was necessary. It's the catalyst that will initiate the change the boys need to make....

Ironically gad told dean it was for the greater good.....and I believe he's right about that
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-01 10:59
nappi815 - Dean didn't tell Kevin because he didn't see a threat to Kevin from Gadreel only to Sam and he was again in a big rush to get to Sam before Gadreel took off with his brother's body because of him. Possessed Sam had never shown any signs of being a threat to anyone but Sam. Only the audience knew about Metatron being back on Earth and only we do now. Even if Kevin had known about the possession he was not capable of escaping Gadreel either in the bunker or out. Metatron could have found Kevin and Gadreel and done the same thing without the possession of Sam. Eventually Kevin had to come out of the bunker.

While I like the concept of two brothers fighting evil together as a family and having each other's back and I originally understood why they might not always agree and would fight, I felt that they were at least always there for each other. I liked the fights and make ups because they seemed real. I enjoyed that. I also felt that the show was telling a unique science fiction story and I was intrigued by that as well. IMO killing Kevin as a further catalyst to change the brother's relationship takes it out of the syfy genre and makes it a soap opera. The main point of the story should be about two brothers hunting and not two brothers' rocky road to a better sibling relationship.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-01 10:59
nappi815 - Dean didn't tell Kevin because he didn't see a threat to Kevin from Gadreel only to Sam and he was again in a big rush to get to Sam before Gadreel took off with his brother's body because of him. Possessed Sam had never shown any signs of being a threat to anyone but Sam. Only the audience knew about Metatron being back on Earth and only we do now. Even if Kevin had known about the possession he was not capable of escaping Gadreel either in the bunker or out. Metatron could have found Kevin and Gadreel and done the same thing without the possession of Sam. Eventually Kevin had to come out of the bunker.

While I like the concept of two brothers fighting evil together as a family and having each other's back and I originally understood why they might not always agree and would fight, I felt that they were at least always there for each other. I liked the fights and make ups because they seemed real. I enjoyed that. I also felt that the show was telling a unique science fiction story and I was intrigued by that as well. IMO killing Kevin as a further catalyst to change the brother's relationship takes it out of the syfy genre and makes it a soap opera. The main point of the story should be about two brothers hunting and not two brothers' rocky road to a better sibling relationship.
Ginger
# Ginger 2014-02-01 11:05
In reading post after post, I notice the pattern of discussion still centers around justification of actions on one or the other’s brother actions – something that has been discussed since 9.01 aired, and those justifications are supported by actions taken in past episodes; sometimes in the very far past, yet this was the 12th episode in a new season. It seems to me that, in and of itself, reflects a point that Gerry brought up in her review – that the scene was draining the power out of the final scene in 8.23.
From the conversations here, I would go so far as to say it has the potential of draining the power of the stories told since the Pilot and have stated why in previous posts.

Despite what I thought at the end of Sacrifice, and I believe what everyone else was cheering, was that the brothers were finally on the same page, that they loved each other and were prepared to take on Heaven and Hell again. The final scene in Sharp Teeth left them both back to the same and ancient issues that they have been dealing with for years -- all summed up with Sam saying he could not ‘trust’ Dean and then they get in the car and drive away.

In S1, they were learning to be brothers again, and they obviously were different people with differing views. In S2, they seemed to have worked that out and were focused on killing the YED. In S3, Sam could not save Dean and started his slide to the dark side, with Dean counseling him to stay on course and let him go. In S4, Sam chose Ruby over his brother. In S5, Dean could not trust Sam. In S6, neither acted like they even liked each other, but Dean committed suicide to rescue Sam from being a monster, and Sam seemed to appreciate that. In S7…well, nothing really happened in S7. In S8, they both gave up valued relationships for the sake of choosing each other. TPTB explicitly told us that in interview after interview. Now in S9, they are back to having differing opinions on the job and what is important to them.

More than that, though, Sam is back to giving ultimatums and Dean is back to hoping that by agreeing, they can work things out, and that is why I think the episode messed up the structure of the story. In the worst light, this state of affairs has the potential to undermine all of the storylines told from the Pilot until now. In the least case, where this episode ended has the potential of undermining all of S8 (as Gerry pointed out). Maybe in the end it won’t, but as it stands at the end of Sharp Teeth, I feel it left that glaring potential.

I understand a long, unwinding story being told, but the middle of the season should still move the plot forward in some way, not retract it. It should move the characters into learning or discovering something about the season’s quest or about themselves, not ignore the mytharc and retract the main characters. Personally, I am right back to thinking, as I did in S6 and S8, that these guys don’t even like each other and why in the hell don’t they just split up – Sam go find Amelia and Dean continue to hunt.

Most of all, the middle of the season should never question the basic premise of the entire series by putting a negative connotation on the strength of the series – in this case that being brothers is the root of all evil and everything bad that has ever happened to them. It should never leave the fans discussing justifications for current character actions by having to discuss actions taken that happened as far back as almost a decade ago. All of that is retraction of story and characters. Meanwhile, we have two support characters that have clearly shown growth – Cas and Crowley.

I think everyone agrees that the relationship is broken. It has been for years and the issues have not changed. What I am saying is that for me, there absolutely has to be some pay-off this year. If Sam can’t accept the responsibilitie s that come with the hunting life and still wants that normal life he has longed for, then he needs to go get it. If Dean can’t live without Sam in his life, then he needs to continue to hunt recklessly until he meets that bloody end he believes will happen. If they want to be brothers, then they need to at least act like they like each other and not just get in the car and drive off. I don’t care how the story ends, but I want the emotional relationship crap solved this season.
Ginger
# Ginger 2014-02-01 11:05
In reading post after post, I notice the pattern of discussion still centers around justification of actions on one or the other’s brother actions – something that has been discussed since 9.01 aired, and those justifications are supported by actions taken in past episodes; sometimes in the very far past, yet this was the 12th episode in a new season. It seems to me that, in and of itself, reflects a point that Gerry brought up in her review – that the scene was draining the power out of the final scene in 8.23.
From the conversations here, I would go so far as to say it has the potential of draining the power of the stories told since the Pilot and have stated why in previous posts.

Despite what I thought at the end of Sacrifice, and I believe what everyone else was cheering, was that the brothers were finally on the same page, that they loved each other and were prepared to take on Heaven and Hell again. The final scene in Sharp Teeth left them both back to the same and ancient issues that they have been dealing with for years -- all summed up with Sam saying he could not ‘trust’ Dean and then they get in the car and drive away.

In S1, they were learning to be brothers again, and they obviously were different people with differing views. In S2, they seemed to have worked that out and were focused on killing the YED. In S3, Sam could not save Dean and started his slide to the dark side, with Dean counseling him to stay on course and let him go. In S4, Sam chose Ruby over his brother. In S5, Dean could not trust Sam. In S6, neither acted like they even liked each other, but Dean committed suicide to rescue Sam from being a monster, and Sam seemed to appreciate that. In S7…well, nothing really happened in S7. In S8, they both gave up valued relationships for the sake of choosing each other. TPTB explicitly told us that in interview after interview. Now in S9, they are back to having differing opinions on the job and what is important to them.

More than that, though, Sam is back to giving ultimatums and Dean is back to hoping that by agreeing, they can work things out, and that is why I think the episode messed up the structure of the story. In the worst light, this state of affairs has the potential to undermine all of the storylines told from the Pilot until now. In the least case, where this episode ended has the potential of undermining all of S8 (as Gerry pointed out). Maybe in the end it won’t, but as it stands at the end of Sharp Teeth, I feel it left that glaring potential.

I understand a long, unwinding story being told, but the middle of the season should still move the plot forward in some way, not retract it. It should move the characters into learning or discovering something about the season’s quest or about themselves, not ignore the mytharc and retract the main characters. Personally, I am right back to thinking, as I did in S6 and S8, that these guys don’t even like each other and why in the hell don’t they just split up – Sam go find Amelia and Dean continue to hunt.

Most of all, the middle of the season should never question the basic premise of the entire series by putting a negative connotation on the strength of the series – in this case that being brothers is the root of all evil and everything bad that has ever happened to them. It should never leave the fans discussing justifications for current character actions by having to discuss actions taken that happened as far back as almost a decade ago. All of that is retraction of story and characters. Meanwhile, we have two support characters that have clearly shown growth – Cas and Crowley.

I think everyone agrees that the relationship is broken. It has been for years and the issues have not changed. What I am saying is that for me, there absolutely has to be some pay-off this year. If Sam can’t accept the responsibilitie s that come with the hunting life and still wants that normal life he has longed for, then he needs to go get it. If Dean can’t live without Sam in his life, then he needs to continue to hunt recklessly until he meets that bloody end he believes will happen. If they want to be brothers, then they need to at least act like they like each other and not just get in the car and drive off. I don’t care how the story ends, but I want the emotional relationship crap solved this season.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-01 11:43
I don't think so because I don't believe dean to be that naive. I understand his dire need to trust in zeke. But when dean found out that zeke was dead I think every alarm went off in his head and they were all in danger, not just Sam. It would have taken a mere two seconds for dean to warn Kevin. He found the time to tell him not to worry and just trust him. In that same amount of time it took to say that he could've easily stated,,,,no time to explain, but that's not Sam,,,that statement could've forewarned Kevin into locking himself away in his room. No I think it goes back to dean's tendency to decide what's best for others, that parental role he has to learn to forego.

I always thought that what separated this show apart from every other sci fy show was the fact that it was all about the relationship between these two brothers and the love and dysfunction that are the winch esters. The passion that comes from this fandom exists because of that love these characters have for ea other. These brothers touch the fans like no other characters. They have created friendships and I've often heard posters say how this show, these brothers have helped change their lives. I've seen posts where mothers spoke of their dying children and how this show brought them closer. What other show can lay claim to that? What other characters have united strangers and have helped them get thru their darkest hour? Sam and dean Winchester are no doubt a godsend. Jared and Jensen have brought happiness and strength to their fans. They are a gift to all of us who watch them every week. Therefore I have to disagree that this show is a soap opera...for me, this show is indeed a gift..I cherish the characters and Jared and Jensen.

Jmo of course
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-01 11:43
I don't think so because I don't believe dean to be that naive. I understand his dire need to trust in zeke. But when dean found out that zeke was dead I think every alarm went off in his head and they were all in danger, not just Sam. It would have taken a mere two seconds for dean to warn Kevin. He found the time to tell him not to worry and just trust him. In that same amount of time it took to say that he could've easily stated,,,,no time to explain, but that's not Sam,,,that statement could've forewarned Kevin into locking himself away in his room. No I think it goes back to dean's tendency to decide what's best for others, that parental role he has to learn to forego.

I always thought that what separated this show apart from every other sci fy show was the fact that it was all about the relationship between these two brothers and the love and dysfunction that are the winch esters. The passion that comes from this fandom exists because of that love these characters have for ea other. These brothers touch the fans like no other characters. They have created friendships and I've often heard posters say how this show, these brothers have helped change their lives. I've seen posts where mothers spoke of their dying children and how this show brought them closer. What other show can lay claim to that? What other characters have united strangers and have helped them get thru their darkest hour? Sam and dean Winchester are no doubt a godsend. Jared and Jensen have brought happiness and strength to their fans. They are a gift to all of us who watch them every week. Therefore I have to disagree that this show is a soap opera...for me, this show is indeed a gift..I cherish the characters and Jared and Jensen.

Jmo of course
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-01 12:50
#127 nappi815 you made me cry. Yes to all of that!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-01 12:50
#127 nappi815 you made me cry. Yes to all of that!
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-01 13:32
Ginger126 - nice post and well put.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-01 13:32
Ginger126 - nice post and well put.
Ginger
# Ginger 2014-02-01 13:53
Quoting Prix68:
Ginger126 - nice post and well put.


Thank you.
Ginger
# Ginger 2014-02-01 13:53
Quote:
Ginger126 - nice post and well put.
Thank you.
E
# E 2014-02-01 16:33
Hi nappi… we agree once again. A rogue angel is a danger to anyone around him, and Dean was suspicious long before he was certain there was a problem. He did a real disservice to Kevin by keeping him in the dark and it's bitten him big time. Maybe Kevin would have been killed anyway as Metatron had a keen interest in getting to the prophet before he could figure out what was on the tablets. But the fact remains that neither Metatron nor Gadreel even knew where Kevin was, and he was reasonably safe until Gadreel walked right in the bunker while inside of Sam. When Dean opened the door to possessing Sam he opened the door to the Bunker, all of their conversations and plans, their knowledge, all of Sam's thoughts and fatal, and painfully easy access to Kevin. Fans can hand-wave all they want, they can try and absolve Dean of his guilt because he feels so badly about everything (and he does, he really truly does, his pain is hard to watch) or try to diminish his culpability, but what he did was wrong on so many levels and being human means taking responsibility. I'd like Dean to own up and take responsibility. Running off on a revenge quest is not taking responsibility, it's running away. He must stay and fix the issues that have arisen between he and Sam and begin to change his behavior. (Sam must change his too, but I am discussing Dean ATM). If this whole situation gets left in the dust without resolution, or (God Forbid!) by Sam telling Dean he was right all along (shades of The Mentalists), then I will have lost all respect for Dean as a character. So, the conversation at the end of Sharp Teeth may have been harsh but it was necessary and hopefully will begin the process of change. I for one DON"T want a the brothers to 'get along' at the expense of sweeping all of these issued under the rug. For them to continue on without addressing any of the stuff that's happened recently or what recent events has dredged up from their past is just about the worst thing they could do. I don't want a patch job and then them ignoring all this stuff, I want them to discuss it, fight about it, punch each other, cry.. whatever it takes for them to hash it out and then grow from it. It's high time it happened.
E
# E 2014-02-01 16:33
Hi nappi… we agree once again. A rogue angel is a danger to anyone around him, and Dean was suspicious long before he was certain there was a problem. He did a real disservice to Kevin by keeping him in the dark and it's bitten him big time. Maybe Kevin would have been killed anyway as Metatron had a keen interest in getting to the prophet before he could figure out what was on the tablets. But the fact remains that neither Metatron nor Gadreel even knew where Kevin was, and he was reasonably safe until Gadreel walked right in the bunker while inside of Sam. When Dean opened the door to possessing Sam he opened the door to the Bunker, all of their conversations and plans, their knowledge, all of Sam's thoughts and fatal, and painfully easy access to Kevin. Fans can hand-wave all they want, they can try and absolve Dean of his guilt because he feels so badly about everything (and he does, he really truly does, his pain is hard to watch) or try to diminish his culpability, but what he did was wrong on so many levels and being human means taking responsibility. I'd like Dean to own up and take responsibility. Running off on a revenge quest is not taking responsibility, it's running away. He must stay and fix the issues that have arisen between he and Sam and begin to change his behavior. (Sam must change his too, but I am discussing Dean ATM). If this whole situation gets left in the dust without resolution, or (God Forbid!) by Sam telling Dean he was right all along (shades of The Mentalists), then I will have lost all respect for Dean as a character. So, the conversation at the end of Sharp Teeth may have been harsh but it was necessary and hopefully will begin the process of change. I for one DON"T want a the brothers to 'get along' at the expense of sweeping all of these issued under the rug. For them to continue on without addressing any of the stuff that's happened recently or what recent events has dredged up from their past is just about the worst thing they could do. I don't want a patch job and then them ignoring all this stuff, I want them to discuss it, fight about it, punch each other, cry.. whatever it takes for them to hash it out and then grow from it. It's high time it happened.
Bevie
# Bevie 2014-02-01 16:42
Can't help but agree with this review.

Was looking forward to this episode as I am fond of Garth and hoped he would bring the boys some insight into their present division. Didn't happen.

Things that really bothered me a lot and kept me from enjoying:

Garth a werewolf? No. Will this keep him from coming back to the show ever? So sad for me. I want the old Garth (trying to be Bobby) back.

Sam seeming to say to Dean: I wanted to die and you wouldn't let me, so I don't love you anymore or care about you. Wibble! The Sam who got back in the car seemed more like Soulless Sam than the Sammy I long to see on the screen. Remember? "I don't even care about you' from season 6, and that hurt me like a knife in the guts! (Recall season 1 - "You're my brother, and I'd die for you!")

The change in the werewolf lore. Trivial, but slightly off kilter for me.

Sam's 1 minute concern for the mark of Cain on Dean's arm. Almost,"uh huh. Okay. Next?"

Last but not least - LOL! :-? The BEARD! Just....... please please no no no more! :sad:

Don't be mad at me.........Just my impressions. Adam Glass didn't write to my specifications this time. :cry: Come home Ben Edlund!!!!!
Bevie
# Bevie 2014-02-01 16:42
Can't help but agree with this review.

Was looking forward to this episode as I am fond of Garth and hoped he would bring the boys some insight into their present division. Didn't happen.

Things that really bothered me a lot and kept me from enjoying:

Garth a werewolf? No. Will this keep him from coming back to the show ever? So sad for me. I want the old Garth (trying to be Bobby) back.

Sam seeming to say to Dean: I wanted to die and you wouldn't let me, so I don't love you anymore or care about you. Wibble! The Sam who got back in the car seemed more like Soulless Sam than the Sammy I long to see on the screen. Remember? "I don't even care about you' from season 6, and that hurt me like a knife in the guts! (Recall season 1 - "You're my brother, and I'd die for you!")

The change in the werewolf lore. Trivial, but slightly off kilter for me.

Sam's 1 minute concern for the mark of Cain on Dean's arm. Almost,"uh huh. Okay. Next?"

Last but not least - LOL! :-? The BEARD! Just....... please please no no no more! :sad:

Don't be mad at me.........Just my impressions. Adam Glass didn't write to my specifications this time. :cry: Come home Ben Edlund!!!!!
Bevie
# Bevie 2014-02-01 16:47
#127 nsppi815 - This, this paragraph is why I watch the show and will never stop, no matter what until the very end. And even then - the dvds forever!

quote

I always thought that what separated this show apart from every other sci fy show was the fact that it was all about the relationship between these two brothers and the love and dysfunction that are the winch esters. The passion that comes from this fandom exists because of that love these characters have for ea other. These brothers touch the fans like no other characters. They have created friendships and I've often heard posters say how this show, these brothers have helped change their lives. I've seen posts where mothers spoke of their dying children and how this show brought them closer. What other show can lay claim to that? What other characters have united strangers and have helped them get thru their darkest hour? Sam and dean Winchester are no doubt a godsend. Jared and Jensen have brought happiness and strength to their fans. They are a gift to all of us who watch them every week. Therefore I have to disagree that this show is a soap opera...for me, this show is indeed a gift..I cherish the characters and Jared and Jensen.

unquote

Bravo nappi! :P :-)
Bevie
# Bevie 2014-02-01 16:47
#127 nsppi815 - This, this paragraph is why I watch the show and will never stop, no matter what until the very end. And even then - the dvds forever!

quote

I always thought that what separated this show apart from every other sci fy show was the fact that it was all about the relationship between these two brothers and the love and dysfunction that are the winch esters. The passion that comes from this fandom exists because of that love these characters have for ea other. These brothers touch the fans like no other characters. They have created friendships and I've often heard posters say how this show, these brothers have helped change their lives. I've seen posts where mothers spoke of their dying children and how this show brought them closer. What other show can lay claim to that? What other characters have united strangers and have helped them get thru their darkest hour? Sam and dean Winchester are no doubt a godsend. Jared and Jensen have brought happiness and strength to their fans. They are a gift to all of us who watch them every week. Therefore I have to disagree that this show is a soap opera...for me, this show is indeed a gift..I cherish the characters and Jared and Jensen.

unquote

Bravo nappi! :P :-)
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-01 17:01
Nappi @127 I agree with what you say here. Dean can't seem to, yet has to, let go of the parental role. In a way I think he feels the need to control everything because he fears losing control of everything if that makes any sense.

Your last paragraph is so true and how I feel about the show, I will leave the parsing and debating to others. I enjoy reading it, I am just content to go along for the ride at the moment :-)
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-01 17:01
Nappi @127 I agree with what you say here. Dean can't seem to, yet has to, let go of the parental role. In a way I think he feels the need to control everything because he fears losing control of everything if that makes any sense.

Your last paragraph is so true and how I feel about the show, I will leave the parsing and debating to others. I enjoy reading it, I am just content to go along for the ride at the moment :-)
paloma
# paloma 2014-02-01 18:23
#131 E, I only want your point of view What running away? He said that it was his fault. And I don't see any revenge quest: last episode he was hunting Abbadon, this werewolfs and next it was a health center which at first I don't see any relation with angels. He was the fist to made a move, Sam want a hunter partner and for now it seems what he is getting. We will see next episode.
paloma
# paloma 2014-02-01 18:23
#131 E, I only want your point of view What running away? He said that it was his fault. And I don't see any revenge quest: last episode he was hunting Abbadon, this werewolfs and next it was a health center which at first I don't see any relation with angels. He was the fist to made a move, Sam want a hunter partner and for now it seems what he is getting. We will see next episode.
E
# E 2014-02-01 21:06
Quoting paloma:
#131 E, I only want your point of view What running away? He said that it was his fault. And I don't see any revenge quest: last episode he was hunting Abbadon, this werewolfs and next it was a health center which at first I don't see any relation with angels. He was the fist to made a move, Sam want a hunter partner and for now it seems what he is getting. We will see next episode.


Hi Paloma,
By running away I mean that instead of staying with Sam and facing how he was feeling about things, discussing what went wrong, the possession and Kevin's death, Dean went on his quest for revenge against Gadreel. That's what he said specifically at the end of Road Trip, that he was going to kill Gadreel and get revenge for Kevin and for what Gadreel put Sam through. He then said that he didn't want Sam to come along on that quest even though it was Sam that was the victim of Gadreel's possession AND the one forced by Gadreel to kill Kevin. Sam wanted Dean to stay, but Dean refused. Then for no real reason that I can figure the hunt for Gadreel turned into a plot to kill Abbadon. Dean couldn't face what he had done to Sam and Kevin in that moment, so he left. That's running away IMO. Sam has been accused of it time and time and time again so to me it's the same thing when Dean does it. At the end of Sharp Teeth is the following dialog:

DEAN
Hey.
[SAM turns around]
Uh, listen, that night that, uh... You know, we went our -- our separate ways --

SAM
you mean the night you split?

DEAN [nods]
Fair enough.

Sam points out that it was running away and Dean acknowledges that it was. Luckily he's back now (until the mark of Cain takes him away again) and the brothers can get down to fixing their relationship.
E
# E 2014-02-01 21:06
Quote:
#131 E, I only want your point of view What running away? He said that it was his fault. And I don't see any revenge quest: last episode he was hunting Abbadon, this werewolfs and next it was a health center which at first I don't see any relation with angels. He was the fist to made a move, Sam want a hunter partner and for now it seems what he is getting. We will see next episode.
Hi Paloma,
By running away I mean that instead of staying with Sam and facing how he was feeling about things, discussing what went wrong, the possession and Kevin's death, Dean went on his quest for revenge against Gadreel. That's what he said specifically at the end of Road Trip, that he was going to kill Gadreel and get revenge for Kevin and for what Gadreel put Sam through. He then said that he didn't want Sam to come along on that quest even though it was Sam that was the victim of Gadreel's possession AND the one forced by Gadreel to kill Kevin. Sam wanted Dean to stay, but Dean refused. Then for no real reason that I can figure the hunt for Gadreel turned into a plot to kill Abbadon. Dean couldn't face what he had done to Sam and Kevin in that moment, so he left. That's running away IMO. Sam has been accused of it time and time and time again so to me it's the same thing when Dean does it. At the end of Sharp Teeth is the following dialog:

DEAN
Hey.
[SAM turns around]
Uh, listen, that night that, uh... You know, we went our -- our separate ways --

SAM
you mean the night you split?

DEAN [nods]
Fair enough.

Sam points out that it was running away and Dean acknowledges that it was. Luckily he's back now (until the mark of Cain takes him away again) and the brothers can get down to fixing their relationship.
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-02-03 10:37
Quoting CASTIELs cat:
(Edited by Alice. Attacking another poster. I know that poster hasn't been very civil either and I've edited those posts. But we have this feature called "Report to Administrator" if you're logged in. Or, send the Admin (me) a message via "Contact Us." Your complaint will be heard.

Sleepy Hollow? We've been covering that at our sister
site, TV For The Rest of Us. Any insights you have on
that show are more than welcome there!


Understand. Sleepy Hollow? I recap/ review it for IFP. I will check out your sister site since I haven't found a review to follow for the show, besides mine.
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-02-03 10:37
Quote:
(Edited by Alice. Attacking another poster. I know that poster hasn't been very civil either and I've edited those posts. But we have this feature called "Report to Administrator" if you're logged in. Or, send the Admin (me) a message via "Contact Us." Your complaint will be heard.

Sleepy Hollow? We've been covering that at our sister
site, TV For The Rest of Us. Any insights you have on
that show are more than welcome there!
Understand. Sleepy Hollow? I recap/ review it for IFP. I will check out your sister site since I haven't found a review to follow for the show, besides mine.
E
# E 2014-02-04 05:59
I find it somewhat ironic that so many people feel that Sam's Words in Sharp Teeth have somehow belittled that great scene in Sacrifice, when to me it was Dean's ACTIONS are what really destroyed that moment, particularly for Sam.
E
# E 2014-02-04 05:59
I find it somewhat ironic that so many people feel that Sam's Words in Sharp Teeth have somehow belittled that great scene in Sacrifice, when to me it was Dean's ACTIONS are what really destroyed that moment, particularly for Sam.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-04 13:59
Quoting E:
I find it somewhat ironic that so many people feel that Sam's Words in Sharp Teeth have somehow belittled that great scene in Sacrifice, when to me it was Dean's ACTIONS are what really destroyed that moment, particularly for Sam.

i'm with you e, but i'm not surprised this is the case. i found on more than one occasion that dean has been seen as a victim when he clearly wasn't.
i giggle at your post on the other thread when you stated that one of the things that annoyed you was sam having to leave the room so dean can get his quality time. but in this case i realized that it was dean who needed to hear what garth had to say. i do feel like there was an example to be followed in this episode from both rev jim and garth. i feel that it was indeed dean who needed to be the one to had to learn from both of them. so i really didn't mind when sam left the room this time. i didn't feel it was he who really needed to hear garth's words. the way i see it, what garth said to dean, sam already knows this. dean has done some very cruel things to sam in the past. dean has said hurtful things to him. dean told him he had no faith in him. dean threw away the amulet , which is the one thing i haven't ever forgiven him for. he commited actions (text) that cut sam to his very core. but to make sam believe that every word he had said to him might not have been dean's true feelings, but simply something he said so sam would stop the trials. this act of manipulation on sam's body and dean's lying which only exacerbates sam's feelings that dean never really trusted him in the first place, this is the act that has affected sam the most. this is what broke that unwavering trust sam has always had on his brother. sam is devastated by this and yet for some dean is the victim in all this. kevin is dead as a result of this and dean is seen as the victim. i'm afraid i can't agree on this stance. dean is not the victim here. and though i understand where dean was coming from it still doesn't make it any less wrong and the consequences for everyone isn't any less painful.
still sam loves his brother beyond all else. he does want to fix what's been broken. he does want to work with dean on both cases and his relationship or he wouldn't have gone with dean. dean wants the same thing or he wouldn't have accepted sam's terms. his acceptance along with his guilt and pain only proves to me that dean does know that he needs to find a way to make things right again and with that is the need to change, which i believe dean has come to understand. i'm not only saying that sam doesn't need to change. i have no doubt that he does understand that, that he has been changing and maturing. i really believe that sam understands what he needs to do as his effort to work things out with his brother is proof of that. his words to his brother is so dean understands what he needs to do as well. it was the necessary step sam needed to take to not only help heal their relationship, but so they both can heal as well.

at least that's the way i see it. ;-)
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-04 13:59
Quote:
I find it somewhat ironic that so many people feel that Sam's Words in Sharp Teeth have somehow belittled that great scene in Sacrifice, when to me it was Dean's ACTIONS are what really destroyed that moment, particularly for Sam.
i'm with you e, but i'm not surprised this is the case. i found on more than one occasion that dean has been seen as a victim when he clearly wasn't.
i giggle at your post on the other thread when you stated that one of the things that annoyed you was sam having to leave the room so dean can get his quality time. but in this case i realized that it was dean who needed to hear what garth had to say. i do feel like there was an example to be followed in this episode from both rev jim and garth. i feel that it was indeed dean who needed to be the one to had to learn from both of them. so i really didn't mind when sam left the room this time. i didn't feel it was he who really needed to hear garth's words. the way i see it, what garth said to dean, sam already knows this. dean has done some very cruel things to sam in the past. dean has said hurtful things to him. dean told him he had no faith in him. dean threw away the amulet , which is the one thing i haven't ever forgiven him for. he commited actions (text) that cut sam to his very core. but to make sam believe that every word he had said to him might not have been dean's true feelings, but simply something he said so sam would stop the trials. this act of manipulation on sam's body and dean's lying which only exacerbates sam's feelings that dean never really trusted him in the first place, this is the act that has affected sam the most. this is what broke that unwavering trust sam has always had on his brother. sam is devastated by this and yet for some dean is the victim in all this. kevin is dead as a result of this and dean is seen as the victim. i'm afraid i can't agree on this stance. dean is not the victim here. and though i understand where dean was coming from it still doesn't make it any less wrong and the consequences for everyone isn't any less painful.
still sam loves his brother beyond all else. he does want to fix what's been broken. he does want to work with dean on both cases and his relationship or he wouldn't have gone with dean. dean wants the same thing or he wouldn't have accepted sam's terms. his acceptance along with his guilt and pain only proves to me that dean does know that he needs to find a way to make things right again and with that is the need to change, which i believe dean has come to understand. i'm not only saying that sam doesn't need to change. i have no doubt that he does understand that, that he has been changing and maturing. i really believe that sam understands what he needs to do as his effort to work things out with his brother is proof of that. his words to his brother is so dean understands what he needs to do as well. it was the necessary step sam needed to take to not only help heal their relationship, but so they both can heal as well.

at least that's the way i see it. ;-)
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-04 17:43
OMG E, that's exactly what I said in another thread. And I agree Nappi.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-04 17:43
OMG E, that's exactly what I said in another thread. And I agree Nappi.