Warning!!!  If you haven't seen "Remember the Titans" yet, read no further or I will be forced to curse you so that all your comments will be read but not believed, Cassandra style!


That was a much better effort than last week's episode.  It was enjoyable.  Didn't knock my socks off, but I enjoyed it.  It's definitely the best of the episodes dealing with gods, too.  I don't have any crazy theories to toss out this week, either, unfortunately, so I'm just going to head right into the review part.  With a quick sidebar about the commenting policy on Speculate articles.

I noticed a few of you said in the comments section last week that you weren't totally familiar with how things work in the "Let's Speculate" comment area, so I'll just rehash quickly for you.  "Let's Speculate" articles are free zones.  What that means is you can comment freely without worrying that the admins (myself, Alice, and sweetondean) will move your comments to another thread.  HOWEVER that does NOT mean you are allowed to be rude, insensitive, or other inappropriate things in comments.  We will still edit your comments if they cross the line and attack other commenters, the show writers, admins, etc.  Basically, express your feelings but please use common sense.

All right, on to the episode.  Let's have some bullet points!  I love me some bullet points.  This is more or less in chronological order since that's how I take my notes during the show.  Because...how else would I take notes as it was going, self.  Sheesh.

 

  • Falling asleep at the wheel is the nightmare driving scenario, isn't it?
  • Did anyone else hope that the hit-and-run guy got some sort of comeuppance?  I mean, he just did a hit and run!  Bad!
  • Not gonna lie, I had to look up the liver-eating-eagle myth before they told us because it was driving me nuts.  It's been a while since I brushed up on my Greek mythology.
  • I bet Dean's next  home improvement scheme is gonna be building a garage for the Impala.
  • Ewwwwww, Sam.  Yuck.  Spitting up blood is just...makes me gag.
  • YES, he still wears the bath robe!!!
  • And on a side note, HOW DID I MISS THAT DEAN WAS IN HIS UNDERWEAR WHEN WEARING THE BATHROBE, HOW?!?!?!
  • Of course the sheriff would think it was a zombie.  What else would a civilian think it was?  Or, really, anyone not named Winchester.
  • Ha, the sheriff is telling them to aim for the head.
  • There were some nice pinking up effects when Prometheus woke up.
  • "All I do is die." Aw, poor Prometheus.
  • "Like a real-life Kenny?" YES, "South Park" reference.
  • I like it when people call them on the Fed routine.  You'd think more people would, but I guess we're all very trusting of authority figures.
  • "Damn right I wanted to shoot some zombies."
  • Whose clothes was Prometheus wearing, Dean's? They fit him nicely.
  • Did they leave him alone in the room?  COME ON!  I just...I understand that storywise things need to happen, but it just. makes. me. so. angry.
  • "Got pulled off a mountain in Europe."  Good nod to the Prometheus myth there.
  • "What do we know that has Jason Bourne fighting skills, dies a lot, and has a history with violent women?"  "I don't know, you?"  HEEEEEE.  Though, you really lobbed that one in, Sam.
  • Genetic curses. Interesting. Monsters can be made genetically, why not curses?
  • Yes, summon Zeus and see what happens.  This is gonna end well.
  • Dragon penis. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.  This week's installment of "yes, this is an actual line of dialogue on 'Supernatural.'"
  • Dean driving a minivan.  Season 2 flashbacks.  Also, I kind of question Hayley's letting Dean drive.  "Yes, you're trying to help my son, but you are also monster killers or something, so hell no, you're not driving my car" would be my response.
  • Smarmy Zeus is the best kind of Zeus.
  • "Balls!" Yes, good, Dean.
  • Can we talk about them just leaving Haley and Oliver over there right next to Zeus?  Like, come on, guys, what was she gonna do?  Of course she was gonna panic and give in!  She's not trained in badassery like you boys are!  She has everything to lose!  You need to make her come with you if you want her to leave the room!  Seriously, it just. makes. me. so. angry.
  • Zeus was Alastair levels of creepy and badass.
  • Oh, Prometheus, pushing the arrow in was totally bitching.  Though, let's be real here.  Artemis was sort of notoriously a man-hater, so having her fall for Prometheus...mm, no.  There had to be another goddess to use.
  • Sorry, but I wouldn't want to stay around and smell a body burning.  Also, Sam, what ice cream places are open in the middle of the night?
  • Dean's really invested in Sam living a normal life.  That is kind of comforting to me, for some reason.  Maybe it's because it's Protective!Dean, but he's also older and wiser so would know when to let Sam go and live that life?
  • Of course Dean would pray to Cass on Sam's behalf.  And it definitely shows how much Dean trusts Cass again if he is asking him to watch over Sam because Dean basically trusts no one to watch over Sam but the closest family.  And of course Dean knows Sam's hiding something from him because he's observant.  And also of course Dean knows that something is really up with Cass now because if Cass could show up after that prayer, he would have.
  • Shit, yes, Meg is back! This makes me happy, more than I expected, not gonna lie.  I've been wondering where she is for a while now.
Now we're left with a 3-week hiatus until the show returns on March 20th.  Waaaaah!  But that means we're heading into the home stretch, the meat of the season!  And with an early renewal, we don't have to worry about the fate of the show heading into the big summer hiatus, which is nice.  But I'm getting ahead of myself.  What did you all think of tonight's episode?

Comments  

PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2013-02-27 23:55
Well, Jensen did it. He made me cry. That last scene. Although HE never cries any more.
I loved that they had the eagle. Way to keep up the lore. I love how they change it just enough to make it work for the show. I haven't read about Greek gods since high school. Unless you count "Percy Jackson" books!!!
fanotheboyz
# fanotheboyz 2013-02-28 00:04
Thanks for the wrap-up. This episode was mostly a winner for me. I also noticed a few things I'd like to mention.

..Loved the bathrobe and jambes! Dean is so cozy there and enjoying his 'legacy'...so proud!

...Thought it was odd they took the Prometheus family to the MOL bat cave. Secret's out now.

...Loved the sherif believing in zombies. Maybe he's friends with Jodie Mills!

...I'm not sure, but the secretary at the station looked a lot like Mackenzie Ackles. I'm not convinced but I had to replay it and freeze it. Looks a lot like her, anyway.

...Loved the dialogue, which was mostly intelligent and didn't 'dumb down' Dean, except when he didn't know where the costume jewelry ingredient could be found for the spell. I think they'd know where to find it.

....Prometheus pushed that arrow through so slowly, I would have thought Zeus would have felt it touch him and back up, but it was a neat concept.

....Do people usually take children out for ice cream while the adults are at a cremation in the field?

...Love, love Dean's big bro prayer to Cas. Only thing that would have made it better was OPT (one perfect tear)..You all know which kind I mean. And at least they are not hiding their feelings, even if Sam hasn't copped to coughing up blood.

...Nice shout-outs to Bobby. Miss him. "Balls!"

...As 'gods' go, this was interesting filler and the characters were intriguing. The writing was spiffy and there was enough reference to what's going on with the guys. My only complaint was that they are wasting time and not advancing the plot enough. I guess they have a plan to bring it all together. I'm trying to have faith.
fanotheboyz
# fanotheboyz 2013-02-28 00:06
I forgot one: Did anyone notice the BULLET HOLE in the Impala just below the mirror on the driver's side?
magichappening
# magichappening 2013-02-28 13:13
Bullet hole? When, where?
fanotheboyz
# fanotheboyz 2013-02-28 16:55
Looked like under the mirror on the driver's side door. My hubby noticed it too, but he thought it was a ding. I thought it looked like a hole, but like it was shot out from the inside. I played it back a few times. Love to know what others thought of it.
magichappening
# magichappening 2013-03-02 14:58
No way! I shall have to have another look. Shall report back!
magichappening
# magichappening 2013-03-03 19:30
Hey fanotheboyz. I re-watched and I don't see it. I see something in the scene right at the beginning of the episode, when Dean gets out the car to walk into the Sheriff' s office and the camera is on the ground. But I don't think that's a bullet hole - that looks to me like a reflection or shadow. Was that when you saw the bullet hole or was it in another scene?
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-02-28 05:37
fanotheboyz
Quote:
...Nice shout-outs to Bobby. Miss him. "Balls!"
I miss him too! Who was responsible in killing him off? I think it was Gamble (how prophetic is her name) well it didn't pay off Sarah! I think the boys do a lot better with Bobby around. Only Bobby could keep Dean in his place. Remember when we went all 'pity party' to Bobby about Sam, and Bobby goes "Well boohoo" Love it
fanotheboyz
# fanotheboyz 2013-02-28 16:58
I loved that scene, too. It was a huge mistake to kill Bobby off and I'm sure Carver knows it, but not much he can do now except show him in dreams or flash-backs. Unless he comes back like Gran-pa Campbell, but that would cheapen his wonderful death episode, right?
Teresa
# Teresa 2013-02-28 00:06
I have to agree with you that a garage or carport or something is needed at the MoL bunker. I've thought that since the first time we saw a shot of the Impala sitting near the door. Kind of hard to keep the thing a secret if they park cars in front of it all the time. But I guess it's not going to be a secret lair since they brought Prometheus and family there. Told them about the secret society too.
I was kind of disappoined in the way Zeus was portrayed. He didn't seem even as powerful as the witches in last week's episode, and I agree with you that Artemis and a love connection seem a little forced. Overall I didn't hate or love this episode, and I was hoping for a little more umph before the break.
I'm glad to see the writers planning to bring the villians back into play. I think Season 8 has left too much of the conflict be relationship based.
st50
# st50 2013-02-28 00:16
Thank you for this!
"Though, let's be real here. Artemis was sort of notoriously a man-hater, so having her fall for Prometheus...mm , no. There had to be another goddess to use."

I was commenting with a friend that if they'd made Prometheus' son into a daughter, and had Artemis have to save her from big bad daddy, Zeus, it would've been more believable for me. Artemis was a huntress, and the PROTECTOR OF YOUNG GIRLS! Duh!
She was very definitely NOT going to be in love with Prometheus.

I loved the brother moments in this one, so, while there were many little issues, I'll forgive them and just enjoy.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-02-28 00:47
I really liked this one. I agree, definitely the best out of all the god episodes. The leaving Shane alone didn't bother me, but I was yelling at them to escort them away from Zeus.

I loved Dean praying to Cas at the end. It had everything that Dean's speeches last week were missing. This seemed all about worry FOR Sam, last week it was more about doubting him. Both are probably true, but this is definitely my preference. I also like that Dean seemed to know something was up with Sam but wasn't angry, just worried.

But hands down my favorite line was "What do we know that has Jason Bourne fighting skills, dies a lot, and has a history with violent women?” “I don’t know, you?” That completely cracks me up. And a nice acknowledgement to to the past in a hilarious way. Ben Edlund worthy.
eilf
# eilf 2013-02-28 01:01
Quote:
But hands down my favorite line was "What do we know that has Jason Bourne fighting skills, dies a lot, and has a history with violent women?” “I don’t know, you?” That completely cracks me up. And a nice acknowledgement to to the past in a hilarious way. Ben Edlund worthy.
I loved this so much too! Made me laugh out loud. And it is a call-out to The Man Who Knew Too Much as well! (Sam's description to the barmaid of why the cops are after him is him pulling the plot of The Bourne Identity out of his memory)
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-02-28 01:06
Quote:
But hands down my favorite line was "What do we know that has Jason Bourne fighting skills, dies a lot, and has a history with violent women?” “I don’t know, you?” That completely cracks me up. And a nice acknowledgement to to the past in a hilarious way. Ben Edlund worthy.
Oh, yeah. This entire episode was Ben Edlund worthy in dialogue. Lots of wit. Loved it.

But even more than the joke, in this particular scene what got me was Sam's exasperated/con fused expression right after Dean said it. OMG - lovely. :)
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-02-28 01:26
The dialogue and the brother exchange were just unbelievably better this week. Such an improvement over last week. The felt natural and honest, even if Sam was hiding his sickness.

Usually one of the best things about Dean's lines for me is Sam's reaction to them. In fact sometimes when they fall flat I think it's because they are not being said to said to Sam. Because the person responding just doesn't get Dean.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-02-28 02:24
Oh my word OH my word! Kelly eilf sweetondean Bamboo and Leah. We always seem to be on the same page when it comes to episodes we love. I've just watched it and I LOVED this one. It has that same old pre season 6 SPN quality back, it just FEELS all feely again. From the dialogue to the camera work and the pace, it just all seemed right again to me.
Quote:
Of course Dean would pray to Cass on Sam's behalf. And it definitely shows how much Dean trusts Cass again if he is asking him to watch over Sam because Dean basically trusts no one to watch over Sam but the closest family. And of course Dean knows Sam's hiding something from him because he's observant. And also of course Dean knows that something is really up with Cass now because if Cass could show up after that prayer, he would have.
I love that Dean has started to pull loved ones back into his life again. For a while I must admit I wasn't seeing inside Dean! He seemed distant and cut off. But the prayer to Cas at the end had me thinking of the soliloquy in season 2 (I think), and I CANNOT tell you how happy that makes me feel.

Quote:
Shit, yes, Meg is back! This makes me happy, more than I expected, not gonna lie. I've been wondering where she is for a while now.
Sorry Ardeospina, did I miss something... Meg? where?
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-02-28 02:27
Oh and sweetondean. DID you notice his beauuuutiful green eyes in this one. I must admit I thought of you when he was driving and the camera picked up how greeeeen his eyes are. Love lurrve luff luuuuve his eyes :lol:
Ardeospina
# Ardeospina 2013-03-01 10:14
Meg was in the preview at the end for the next episode, airing March 20.
Grace232
# Grace232 2013-02-28 00:52
Thanks for your review - and getting itup so fast.

As I said on another thread 10 minutes into the episode, I am happy. This was a good, solid episode. It was entertaining, had good brother moments, and made you care about the guest stars. Some of my favorite moments:
-Dean knowing Sam is hurting in the beginning, and Sam trying unsuccessfully to hide it.
-Kenny reference. I have loved Dean's pop culture references since season 1. I hope that never changes.
-The sheriff telling them about head shots. How much fun was that to watch?
-horrified, but have to admit - how great was the shot of the bird eating the liver?
-Loved Dean's line about wanting to shoot zombies. Reminded me of him wanting to hunt zombies in Time is on My Side.
-Sam knowing the Greek mythology. I remembered a lot of that (but not all) but it was really cool to have his smarts used. And, Dean's too. Good to see both brothers researching, and Dean finding the right passage -yes, with a classic bad joke, but that is part of his charm.
-Loved Dean coming back at Sam to solve the riddle of what fights like Bourne, dies a lot, etc. Classic fun, with good homage to past seasons. Of course, Dean could have been the answer too.
-Nice to have the brothers saving people, hunting things. How nice was it to watch Dean comfort the woman by putting his arm around her.
-Great brother moments, both together and apart, showing how much their family matters to them and that they are worried bout each other. Dean's prayer at the end summed it up nicely.
-Well written, OF COURSE well acted, and well directed. Why doesn't Boyum direct more on ths show?

In short, I liked the episode. It does not immediately jump to my favorites list, but it is good, and I know more things will jump out at me when I watch it a second time. And, I think it set us up nicely for the mytharc, Crowley, Meg and Castiel in the next episode.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-02-28 01:04
God, just please, whoever wrote this episode needs to WRITE MORE. Oh, the brotherly love! Not to mention the dialogue was superb, lots of wit - just like I like it. The actors were great, the story was compelling, and I was entertained.

THANK YOU, SPN!

I give this one a solid B +
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-02-28 02:34
Oh my word! Just picture me doing a jigg in my study Bamboo, I just LOVED this one. If I could kiss the whole SPN team on this ep I would. I just posted above how weird it is that some of us have exactly the same feels on what eps we like. It just felt so pre season 6 again. I love Ben Edlund but I also love this guy toooo. Who directed again? I think it was Phil?
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-02-28 17:34
i think it was daniel loughlin. steve boyum directed.
Leah
# Leah 2013-02-28 01:54
I thought this was pretty good. Leaps and bounds better than last weeks. Best of the god episodes. I still wish they would steer clear of gods and witches though.

I liked the acting. Loved Zeus, he did have kind of an Alastair thing going on. The quiet little boy had such big expressive eyes, so sweet.

No brother tension. BIG plus. This was sensitive Dean week. You just never know from week to week what attitude the boys are going to have. I loved Dean wrapping his arm in a comforting way around Haley, seemed a little OOC to me but still nice. The prayer to Cas was really great. It made Dean's headspace clear.

Poor Sam spitting up blood, so awful. This cannot be good. I am not looking forward to weeks of Sam suffering.

Thanks Ardeospina, always enjoy these first impressions of the episodes!
E
# E 2013-02-28 09:10
Hi Leah, yes... MILES better than last weeks clunker for sure.

I am developing a theory about WHY last weeks ep was just soooo bad. Alice (maybe it was Alice? Apologies if I am misremembering) alluded to TPTB changing the running order of things for a few the episodes and I wonder if last weeks Man's Best Friends with Benefits falls into this category. I mean, the whole "trust issue" was such a step backwards for the bro's after Trail and Error. That sentiment would have fit into things much better either just before or just after Torn and Frayed. I mean, for the episodes to have gone from the brother's conflict in Citizen Fang to MBFWB and it's questions of trust (it was less heated but still adversarial), THEN to the tentative truce at the end of Torn and Frayed, to finally the (seeming) resolution of Trial and Error would have made much more sense (I skipped over a few eppies, but you get my drift).

So, I began to wonder if MBFWB was originally designed to fit in around episode 9,10,11, but the PTB ended up having to change it's slot for some reason. Maybe they were forced to doctor this ep up to fit in later in the season and add a bunch of stuff to make it current. It would account for the weird disjunct quality of the episode, no mention of the MoL and it's HUGE step backwards in the brother's relationship. Either that, or it was just plain bad writing.... :lol:
Leah
# Leah 2013-02-28 12:45
E- I really hope you are right about this because it really doesn't make sense at all otherwise. Unless the writers are working in a vacuum making no effort to look at preceding episodes. That was part of the beauty of EK he kept an eye forward and backward. I like JC and feel the show has improved a great deal this year but the tone shifts between the brothers are odd.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-02-28 12:55
I've been watching the Community commentaries. And they were talking about how one episode "ate" another one, because it was so hard to film. In last weeks SPN, I'm wondering if it was just a multitude of factors that combined to make a uh less than stellar episode. J and J having to leave for the People's Choice. Jared being sick and injured and then just running out of time to make improvements to a weak script.
E
# E 2013-02-28 09:13
Quote:
I am not looking forward to weeks of Sam suffering.
Ooooh, I am.... lots and lots of exquisite Sammy suffering and Dean worry. It will be delicious! :P
Leah
# Leah 2013-02-28 12:26
Gotta love ya E.- You and your (slightly disturbing) love for angst. And your loathing for certain soft drinks. :-) :-)
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-02-28 12:46
E, once again we agree. I have a slightly disturbing (thanks Leah) love for angst as well. At least when done well. I think that is why I love S5 so much. So much yummy angst.
Supernarttu
# Supernarttu 2013-02-28 02:47
Hi Ardeospina.

I really enjoyed this one, million times better than last week. I didn't really notice any gaping holes in it, a few nitpicks yes, but there almost always is something to niggle so I'm used to it.

I myself aren't that versed with the Greek Gods so I was able to just enjoy the story. On the other hand, I wasn't that much peeved with Hammer of the Gods either... I'm used to Show taking it's own view on the universal lore, some are winners and some not. Maybe they do these absolutely opposite angles on purpose... I don't think I've ever been that insulted by their take on myths, but sometimes the dialogue or the dumbing down of S&D to work the story (or for exposition) just exasperates me to no end.

But I do think tonight was a really good story and it kept it's momentum 'till the end.
All the guest characters were great, I really liked Prometheus and Haley. Zeus was really creepy and Artemis was silently somber. I also liked the kid.

And then there was Sam and Dean. Ah, again, SO much better than last week. They felt like themselves. Last week was a bit of a miss for me character wise mostly, their issues seemed a bit forced. But tonight, they were on key and I felt they were being more like themselves. And it was nice to see the MoL Hub again.

As much as Sam hiding his symptoms was a bit "ah, here we go again " for me, it was handled quite nicely with Dean noticing it and not throwing a fit about it. Maybe he finally understands why Sam does this and just tries to deal with it. That prayer in the end was especially wonderfull, I love big brother Dean. Sam also tried to hint in the end about how things were, so I liked that too. Allthough I kinda hate that he's losing his confidence but I guess it's hard to maintain when you're coughing up blood and all that. So, I'm really happy the way they've handled it so far. Good on you, Show.

Also SmartSam!! Hi, nice to see you!! Ah, I love SmartSam. That whole slammed-against -the-wall-momen t with Sam being all cocky and brainy and Dean with his quips and WTF looks was just pure awesome. It made me laugh, a lot.

The special effects were yet again really good. There has been so many episodes where they've either been so "meh" that I've hardly noticed or so bad that I've eye rolled, but there's been many weeks in a row now that I've noticed them in a "Cool!" way. The lightning SFX was particularly great. So, a big kudos, to the SFX team.

A few side notes:
- Prometheus? HAWT! Really, really hot. Like Patrick The Manwitch hot. Yowza. Too bad he didn't have an accent... Why did he have to die, Show??? BOOOO!
- Dean in a robe, YES!!! Now, where are those glasses....
- Sam spitting blood? Made me worried. And then Dean came in and was all attentive. Ah, the love.
- A throwback to Bobby and the woodchipper! Precious!
- A group research session!!! I don't know why, but that made me smile :)

Thanks for the review Ardeospina.
magichappening
# magichappening 2013-02-28 13:34
Quote:
I myself aren't that versed with the Greek Gods so I was able to just enjoy the story. On the other hand, I wasn't that much peeved with Hammer of the Gods either... I'm used to Show taking it's own view on the universal lore, some are winners and some not. Maybe they do these absolutely opposite angles on purpose... I don't think I've ever been that insulted by their take on myths, but sometimes the dialogue or the dumbing down of S&D to work the story (or for exposition) just exasperates me to no end.
Seconded and thirded.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-02-28 02:56
Supernarttu
Quote:
Also SmartSam!! Hi, nice to see you!! Ah, I love SmartSam. That whole slammed-against-the-wall-moment with Sam being all cocky and brainy and Dean with his quips and WTF looks was just pure awesome. It made me laugh, a lot.
Wasn't that scene just the best. I agree that old feel has returned in this ep. Didn't that prayer to Cass remind u of season 3 I think where Dean talks over dead Sam
Supernarttu
# Supernarttu 2013-02-28 03:05
Hi kaz1!

Yes, indeed this eppie had the older seasons feel to it, I noticed that too.

That prayer scene was just beautiful, I got all teary. And Jensen looked just breathtaking.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-02-28 05:49
Quote:
Now we're left with a 3-week hiatus until the show returns on March 20th.
What!! . My giddy aunt. Sweetondean said it would be 2 weeks. I am now going to get serious gravel rash (on account of my lip dragging on the floor)
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2013-02-28 06:35
We're back on March 20th, so that's only the 6th and the 13th we're without an ep :-)
Trucklady
# Trucklady 2013-02-28 21:58
Quote:
We're back on March 20th, so that's only the 6th and the 13th we're without an ep :-)
I noticed they are replaying ep7 A Little Slice of Kevin next week so guess we get some repeats to hold us over but it's better than putting on some filler show.
Leah
# Leah 2013-02-28 15:47
oooh kaz1, thats gotta smart :-)
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-02-28 06:02
Quote:
“What do we know that has Jason Bourne fighting skills, dies a lot, and has a history with violent women?” “I don’t know, you?” HEEEEEE.
That was an awesome line, loved it, along with all the brother interactions. But there definitely were a couple of moments where I just couldn't suspend my disbelief. Sorry... it doesn't happen very often for me when I watch SPN, but it did during this episode :-?

The first one was when Prometheus said something along the lines of 'it's the only thing that makes sense'. He has just been told he is a Greek God & that's the only thing that makes sense?? I personally think a bit more disbelief in this revelation would have been much more believable.

Also, summoning Zeus just seemed like a crazy thing to do - 'death-wish-cra zy'!! I kinda wish the writing team had picked a less well-known God for the boys to deal with... because disposing of such a powerful God as Zeus seemed a tad too easy (even for Sam & Dean).

Side-note: How can Sam & Dean be really worried that the trials will kill them, but act blase about summoning Zeus? I know they've taken care of Gods before, but Zeus? Really! I think I agree with Leah's comment above about wishing they would steer clear of witches and gods :lol:

I did love that we saw more of the bat-cave... but I didn't love that they took strangers there. I hope they blindfolded these guests en route to the location.

I did love seeing Sam use his smarts when Artemis had them pinned to the wall, and Dean's prayer to Castiel was wonderful. Overall, I enjoyed the episode and think it was an improvement over last week. But I'm more than ready to get back to the tablet/angel stories. :-)
E
# E 2013-02-28 08:51
I agree with your bat-cave comment. So, they finally took strangers there....hmmm. I think it was only a matter of time before they started doing so..... and that probably means that Kevin is next in line to see it. But, does any one else see a huge potential problem if/when Cas is made aware of this treasure trove of knowledge? He is (unwittingly) telling Naomi everything.... what if she is working against the brother's? I mean we have NO CLUE what her actual agenda is.... could this lead to Cas giving her the info about the MoL bunker and then the angels destroying it? That would suck. I am getting more and more attached to the bat-cave every time they show it, and I would like to see it last for some time. I mean we haven't even seen Sam's room yet!
Hades
# Hades 2013-02-28 09:57
I read an interview the other day cant remember who with but it said that they dont have a set for Sam's room and they dont plan to have one for now anyway.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-02-28 13:57
This does not surprise me. Having a room would mean having to decide that Sam LIKES something enough to put it in a room and that is unlikely to ever happen.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 16:50
Can't say that surprises me either.

Anyway, Sam's room would probably be a big blank as we have no clue what Sam likes.
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 16:54
Books and lots of spare PC parts.
st50
# st50 2013-02-28 17:00
The amulet - if it still existed. :cry:
Seriously. What else has Sam ever cared about?
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-02-28 17:36
Okay, this is a little depressing. What would they put in his room to signify it as his? We don't know his taste in music or what he likes to do away from hunting or anything.

You know that could be an amazing scene. If they show Dean looking around Sam's room and realizing Sam has nothing beyond hunting anymore or that he as well as he knows Sam he doesn't know really know a lot about him anymore outside hunting for the last few years. And learning more about Sam from that angle.

(remember me saying I like angst)
eilf
# eilf 2013-02-28 17:46
I see a bunch of Sammy's room angsty fanfics on the horizon :D
st50
# st50 2013-02-28 17:47
Quote:
I see a bunch of Sammy's room angsty fanfics on the horizon :D
Ooo. Yes please? :D :lol:
Super
# Super 2013-03-01 06:17
Ok, this st50 quote:
Quote:
The writers wouldn't have a clue what to put in it.

just bugged the hell out of me, so, I kinda wrote a fic about Sams room.

I have no idea where to publish it though...

Is the Let's Speculate article 'that' much of a freezone? ;)
Super
# Super 2013-03-01 06:18
YAY, the quoties worked!!!
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-01 07:11
Super
I'd LOVE to read it. Am new to this site so wouldn't know how free the speculative part is. Try it, you might start a trend. :lol:
st50
# st50 2013-03-01 07:56
Quote:
Ok, this st50 quote:
Quote:
The writers wouldn't have a clue what to put in it.

just bugged the hell out of me, so, I kinda wrote a fic about Sams room.

I have no idea where to publish it though...

Is the Let's Speculate article 'that' much of a freezone? ;)
Sorry for bugging the h out of you, Super, (It bothered me that it seemed to be true - or at least that WE didn't know! :sad: ) But glad it inspired you to write! :oops:
Would love to read your fic. I hope it's ok with Alice and company, but yes, please share!
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-06 22:25
Hi Super, Since you mentioned the fan/fic, and posted a little excerpt, I have been wanting to read the whole thing and just awhile ago I did (saw the link on CBOX). I had to tell you how wonderful and touching it was. I have never read any ff before but if what is out there is as good as this, I should be!!!
Super
# Super 2013-03-07 01:53
Hi Leah.

It was my very first! Ever!!
I've been reading fan fic for years but never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd write something...

But that dang Sams room kept bugging me so much :D

Thank you SO much for reading it, I'm glad you liked it!!
eilf
# eilf 2013-02-28 17:42
Oh my, you're right, sitting here trying to think of what we know that Sam likes ... *crickets*

He would have a photo of Jess. Books - of lore and mythology maybe? Some reference to Gandhi? He likes football apparently (Heartache).

I am really reaching here...

Um, a player for his ipod?
st50
# st50 2013-02-28 14:40
Quote:
I read an interview the other day cant remember who with but it said that they dont have a set for Sam's room and they dont plan to have one for now anyway.
A room for Sam would be a glimpse into WHO he is. What does he like? What would he want to keep?... We know Dean likes his music, his weapons, his photo of Mom, even his mattress....
What do we know of Sam and his likes? Nada, besides books, and they already have a massive library.
That's why Sam can't have a room. The writers wouldn't have a clue what to put in it.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-02-28 14:47
Quote:
Quote:
I read an interview the other day cant remember who with but it said that they dont have a set for Sam's room and they dont plan to have one for now anyway.
A room for Sam would be a glimpse into WHO he is. What does he like? What would he want to keep?... We know Dean likes his music, his weapons, his photo of Mom, even his mattress....
What do we know of Sam and his likes? Nada, besides books, and they already have a massive library.
That's why Sam can't have a room. The writers wouldn't have a clue what to put in it.
This is actually my thought too. That besides a bed they wouldnt know what to put in there. I wouldnt deny outside of the big table and some books that it would be nice to personalize the place for Sam . :-)
Ale
# Ale 2013-02-28 14:51
I guess Sam's "bedroom" is that living room. Music and all.
st50
# st50 2013-02-28 17:48
Quote:
The writers wouldn't have a clue what to put in it.
And obviously, neither would we. :cry: :cry:
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-02-28 17:57
Quote:
Quote:
The writers wouldn't have a clue what to put in it.
And obviously, neither would we. :cry: :cry:
Oh, I'd never thought of this until now. This is so sad :sad:

I think Sam needs to get a dog, but I can't see Dean agreeing to that! And then we'd have the problem of who would feed the dog while they are off on a case (unless they get the same person who cleans the bunker to do it...lol).

I think we should start a campaign to get the writers to show us Sam's room. That way we can get to know him a bit better. I live in hope ;-)
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-02-28 18:18
This is really sad. I seriously can't think of anything that would say Sam's room as opposed to one of the Winchester boys' room, other than picture of Jess or Yuck Amelia and hair products.

I did think of a dog too. He had one with Amelia and he had one when he ran away as a kid. So that is something that is just him, obviously. But that would be very difficult for him to have as often as they are gone.

I suppose you could make the argument that he is just not someone who collects things, like Dean is. But what do we even know of his tastes? We know he eats salads. And used to dress in shirts only a man as gorgeous as he could pull off. But I really can't think of him stating his tastes on anything other than the Stooges in last episode and that he thought Jet Li could beat Chuck Norris in a fight.

elif, I must have fan fictions now, just so I know what ideas they come up with.
eilf
# eilf 2013-02-28 18:31
I nearly included hair products but you know Dean's hair doesn't get like that on it's own either ... they probably have a lot of haircare stuff in the bathroom.

I believe that even if we knew more about Sam we would conclude that his room would be minimalist and spartan, that seems to be in character (see Mystery Spot and the way the trunk of the Impala was sorted while Dean was dead).

And thinking about it really, Dean's room: hanging weapons on your wall as decoration? Over your bed? How is that relaxing as decoration :D

Dean arrives in heaven (again):

Ash: Now what?
Dean: An axe fell on me
Ash: Were you fighting?
Dean: No, I was having a nap.

What are the earthquake stats for Kansas?
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-02-28 18:52
Yeah, I agree hair products would be in the bathroom.

I took the spartan look in MS as a sign of the OCD Dean's death brought on, rather than a matter of taste. But I don't think he would have an overly embellished room either.

Yeah I don't particularly care for Dean's decor. That would be a hilarious way for him to die though, so embarrassing. But I don't think he has to worry about earthquakes in Kansas. I think we've only had 1 semi-large one in all record history and that was in the 1800's. Think more tornadoes. :D
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-01 13:55
You know when I wrote that about the axe over his bed I was thinking of the weapons on the walls. I didn't realise until I did a rewatch of the last episode last night that there IS actually an axe balanced on its blade on the shelf behind the headboard of the bed. I was joking before - but now, that seems like a REALLY bad idea to me :D

But if the bunker is tornado proof it's probably all good!
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-01 21:27
I'd probably still move it. That seems a little dangerous. :lol:
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-01 22:44
After all they face in daily Dean would probably find that amusing. I would be ironic if Dean died from the consequences of a loose nail. :-)
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-01 22:46
It wou;d be ironic....
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-01 22:48
I give up!
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-01 22:54
All I could think of when elif posted this was Six Feet Under when a woman was killed by blue ice(frozen sewage released from aircraft). And X-Files when a death psychic insinuated that Mulder would die from auto erotic asphyxiation. Such embarrassing ways to die, but kind of hilarious as well.
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-02 00:35
In Dead like Me the heroine gets killed by a toilet seat falling from the international space station....
E
# E 2013-03-01 23:20
Here's what I'd like to see re: Sam's room. I'd like to see Dean go in there to talk to Sam and then realize that the room is devoid of anything meaningful, decorative or nostalgic..... that it's a cold, sterile, boring room. He then asks Sam why he hasn't "decorated" and Sam first gives Dean a hard time about "decorating" but then lets it slip that he doesn't feel the need, or want to, that he didn't decorate while at Stanford or much even as a teenager; "why bother, Dean, we'll only leave soon anyway" etc.. This then prompts Dean to want to find something to put into Sam's room to make it more homey. Then we all go 'awwwwwwww!.'

Dean seems to be really settling into the bunker. We've seen him in his jim-jams twice now. He's bought a new mattress, he's been stocking the kitchen and basking in the luxury of the hot showers. He's been making himself at home. Sam, although he certainly seems to understand how important the bunker and it's contents are, hasn't been settling down in the same way. I want to see that.
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-01 23:47
That would be really really nice E. Is is at all possible that Sam relishes the library, the research, as his comfort zone? I would like to think that because it is just too sad otherwise. I wonder if keeping his mind occupied is soothing to him? Maybe it keeps his demons at bay. It would be wonderful to see him settle in, let his guard down.
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-02 00:49
Sam doesn't seem to need 'stuff'.

He's not a materialistic sort of person.

He is so self-contained that he is all just there in front of you. You have to find out about him by communicating with him.

Since no one does he becomes an enigma.

He's fascinating because of what goes on in his head.
st50
# st50 2013-03-02 09:28
Quote:

He's fascinating because of what goes on in his head.
...And he ain't bad to look at, neither. :oops: ;-)
E
# E 2013-02-28 15:41
Boooooo! :eek:
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-02-28 17:26
Yes, they wouldn't want Naomi or Crowley finding the bunker. I know that Sam & Dean understand that it's important to keep it secret, because they worked so hard to stop Abbadon from getting the key. Plus, Sam heard what the old man said about throwing in the key and locking away the contents for ever, so it wouldn't get into the wrong hands. So I was very surprised in this episode when they took strangers there.

I could perhaps understand if they decided to tell Garth because they've been working with him a while now, but people they had just met (and a child who may not be good at keeping a secret). It's just asking for trouble.

Plus they really do have to do something about the cars parked out the front :lol:
Ale
# Ale 2013-02-28 09:07
Quote:
Side-note: How can Sam & Dean be really worried that the trials will kill them, but act blase about summoning Zeus? I know they've taken care of Gods before, but Zeus? Really!
According to SPN universe, Gods take their power through human worship. In Ancient Greece Zeus was very powerful, but nowadays... I don't believe there are many who believe in Zeus. Although S&D found some conveniently nearby (I guess we have a little of everything and everyone in this world).

God, on the other hand, is pretty powerful, since a good share of the world population believe in Him.

This is consistent with the power of the human souls theme.
E
# E 2013-02-28 09:38
Good point Ale! A little 2 line reminder in the episode would have gone a long way to fixing the issue of taking on someone with such a seemingly powerful history. That might have been a good question for Haley to ask: "Isn't it kind of crazy to try and take on the king of the gods?" to which Sam or Dean could have replied "the ancient god's powers are taken from their believers, so they aren't so powerful these days. Believe me, we've fought worse" ... well, I 'aint no writer, but something like that anyway.
Ale
# Ale 2013-02-28 11:18
Hi, E!
Didn't Sam say something like that to Artemis? I watched the episode today at 6 am, so I was a little sleepy and I didn't understand all the dialogue, but I thought Sam mocked Artemis' power.
magichappening
# magichappening 2013-02-28 13:42
Hey Ale et al. Really interesting point Ale. Kind of like the - whatchumacalitt haunted house creature...umm. . Ghostfacers...d amn, have to look it up...hang on..tulpa!

My interpreration tho of Sam's point about Artemis being unable to find Prometheus, was Sam implying not that her power had waned, but that it was because she loved Prometheus and didn't want to find him.
Ale
# Ale 2013-02-28 14:06
Oh. I have to watch it again. Thanks, magichappening!
magichappening
# magichappening 2013-03-02 15:00
:-)
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2013-02-28 10:17
Quote:
According to SPN universe, Gods take their power through human worship. In Ancient Greece Zeus was very powerful, but nowadays... I don't believe there are many who believe in Zeus.
That is a really good point Ale. Because Zeus is quite the badass in the Godverse, but none of the Greek gods are worshipped anymore, God took over that job! :-)
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-02-28 17:46
Quote:
According to SPN universe, Gods take their power through human worship.
I take your point. But Zeus is such a powerful God that most people have heard of him (even if they don't worship him). I also think he would be equivalent to the Gods they portrayed in 'Hammer of the Gods' and in that episode the boys were clearly overwhelmed. It took Lucifer to stop those Gods.

As E said, just a line from Hayley about how crazy it is to summon a God might have helped... or at least some hesitation about the wisdom of doing this... and a discussion about what could potentially go wrong. I mean, they said they were going to summon Zeus whether Prometheus was with them or not. It's a bit reckless, even for Sam & Dean.

I should point out that this is only a minor criticism of an episode that I did enjoy. But it was one of those 'very rare' moments where I just came out of SPN world (and it was a shock, because I normally have no trouble completely losing myself in this world).

I also really needed to see Prometheus show some signs of disbelief about his situation, before he just accepted that he was a God. You know, like when Harry Potter was told he was a wizard :lol:
eilf
# eilf 2013-02-28 17:56
The thing about the gods in HOTG is that several of them belong to religions which have at least as many followers as the religions we are more used to. As Zeus belongs to a pretty much obsolete religion you could say that there is reason for him to be weaker.
prix68
# prix68 2013-02-28 06:42
I liked this episode. I felt relieved that Dean knows Sam is hurting but wasn't confrontational but supportive. Didn't want to spend the hiatus with the brothers at odds. So done with the bitterness between them! Good story for a one off and both brothers in character and not a parody of themselves. Can't wait to get back to the myth arc. It's gonna be a long 3 weeks!
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-02-28 07:46
Very well written and good episode. I think the last time they did the other mythology gods thing was back in S5 "Hammer of the Gods" and that wasn't a memorable effort.

Besides coughing up blood, anyone notice that Sam was having trouble catching his breath while digging up the grave with Prometheus? Looks like things are only going to get worse for him.

Sam's conversation with Oliver at the end was interesting; almost paralleled Sam's life as a hunter, being introduced to it at an early age and ultimately choosing to stay in that life.

Regarding Sam hiding things from Dean, I think both of them know each other too well. Especially after they're conversation in the car on the way back to the bat cave, when he said he being naive about being able to escape the trials unscathed. Sam knows that Dean knows something is up but he's not going to say too much because there's nothing Dean can do about it and he doesn't want his big brother to worry about him. Nice touch at the end with Dean praying to Cas to look out for his little brother; also liked Dean mentioning he felt guilty because he was supposed to be doing the trials (he shouldn't but that's just Dean being Dean) and acknowledging that they went in to this whole closing gates of Hell kind of half assed (or blind as he said).

A little speculating here but I don't think Cas is going to be able to help/heal Sam; Sam has entered in to some sort of contract with God which can only end when the trials have been completed, or Sam dies, or both. But, then again, dying in the Supernatural world doesn't quite mean the same thing.

Can't wait for 3/20; Meg is back! I miss her. Always enjoy Crowley and Cas too but Meg is the longest running recurring character on the show, isn't she?
E
# E 2013-02-28 09:20
Quoting njspnfan:
Quote:
Sam's conversation with Oliver at the end was interesting; almost paralleled Sam's life as a hunter, being introduced to it at an early age and ultimately choosing to stay in that life.
Nice catch! I noticed that too. And did you also notice that this was the first time the child spoke in the whole episode and also perhaps for a very long time? His mother said that when he began dying, like his father, that he had stopped speaking. Maybe the kid recognized a kindred spirit in Sam? It was a small moment in the ep, but a nice one.
Hades
# Hades 2013-02-28 10:07
I dont think Cas will be able to halp Sam at all, my guess is once you've enteres into the contract with God you either have to complete the trials or die for said contract to be up. I do expect Cas to at least pick up on Sam being in the contract though and obviously show some kind of concern over the side affects even if its in the form of a warning.
Trucklady
# Trucklady 2013-02-28 22:17
Quote:
Always enjoy Crowley and Cas too but Meg is the longest running recurring character on the show, isn't she?
No actually believe it or not the Meg character (Rachel Miner) has only been in 6 episodes, Nicki Aycox (5). Bobby Singer (54) still holds the lead then Cas (22), then Crowley (20). You are right though, it will be good to have her back. Glad Crowley didn't fry her like he threatened at end of s7.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-02-28 22:31
Although Meg has had less episodes than Bobby, Cas and Crowley, she did appear first. She started in Scarecrow, long before Bobby, then came Cas and finally Crowley. So it kind of depends on how you describe long running. Also, technically, she appeared one other time, when she possessed Sam in BUABS. It's still far less than the others, but it was Meg in Sam.
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-02-28 22:41
You beat me to this comment. I also took it to mean longest recurring character dating back to her first appearance in Scarecrow; rather than the number of episodes. She is actually the only recurring character (besides S&D) that dates back to season 1, now that Bobby has gone :sad:

The fact that she is still around says a lot about her character and strength of will to survive. I'm looking forward to seeing her again. But, even though she is fighting against Crowley, I'm always waiting for her to double-cross the boys. It didn't happen in season 7, but I still don't trust her :-?
E
# E 2013-02-28 08:39
Not a bad episode at all! I am pleased. It wasn't a "blow me away with its awesomeness" type episode, but it was solid, interesting, had a nice flow, good brotherliness, cute kid, cute guys.... :D I mean, S&D = hot goes without saying, but Prometheus? Wasn't HE yummy?

My thoughts are really similar to KG_SPN's; I liked the brother scenes, Dean in a bathrobe, snarky Dean lines that were actually funny instead of just snarky, smart!Sam (good to see ya) and smart!Dean (boy, after last week, it's REALLY good to see YOU). I liked the fight scenes and special effects too. It didn't bother me that the boys left the 'dead' body in the morgue to go outside to talk, I mean, they could still see him through the window, and I can understand them wanting to get away from the morgue smells (eww!). I also loved the shot through the window of Prometheus sitting up through the glass while the boys talked. I could see it coming from a mile off, but I still loved it as well as S&D's reaction when they realized that their dead guy had gotten up and walked off.

I loved that the sheriff was a 'believer;' nice change from how they usually have things go for the boys and authority figures. And even though I was initially dreading it, not a bad take on the "Sam's hiding things again" trope. He isn't really deliberately hiding it from Dean so much as he seems scared shitless, and is beginning to doubt himself but doesn't want to make a fuss because he was so insistent about taking on the remainder of the trials after completing the first one. I thought it was very Samlike to try and talk about it without talking about it, but Dean got it anyway. And I really loved to see Dean's genuine concern and his fear for Sam instead of the bluster of last weeks episode. I didn't get 'concern' from Dean last week so much as 'control'. This time it really was nice and warm and fuzzy and not angry; we've seen a lot of angry!Dean this season, so this was a nice change. Dean seemed much more like woolly, squishy Dean, what with him comforting the girlfriend (what's her name?) at the end. Maybe that was a little OOC, but I liked it because it looked a little tentative on Dean's part, but he knows what it's like to watch a loved one burn so he went ahead and provided the comfort anyway. Sad to see Prometheus go.. there goes another awesome guest character. :cry:

I liked that Dean was proud of the MoL legacy and was happy to see him not only using the library but also being the one to pin down the pertinent info. I want to see Dean invested in the bunker as not just something for Sam to connect to; it's BOTH brother's legacy, not just Sam's.

There were a few things that didn't quite work though. I agree that taking on Zeus in such a seemingly blasé manner was kind of hard to swallow. Maybe if it has been a lesser god (as someone else suggested) or there had been a comment about how all the older gods don't have the power that they used to... something, because, I mean it's ZEUS for crying out loud! Maybe if Prometheus had remembered who he was and was able to tap into his godliness or something it might have balanced out the risk they were taking.... that was the weak part of the story for me. Oh, and not making your plans clear to ALL parties involved. And I also was surprised that they took basically complete strangers to the bat cave. So aside from those nit picks, the good far outweighs the not so good for an enjoyable week.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 11:04
Quote:
And even though I was initially dreading it, not a bad take on the "Sam's hiding things again" trope. He isn't really deliberately hiding it from Dean so much as he seems scared shitless, and is beginning to doubt himself but doesn't want to make a fuss because he was so insistent about taking on the remainder of the trials after completing the first one.
See, I thought this was very clear in the last episode as well, which is why I was never upset w/Sam not saying anything. I think they have played both boys' feelings very realistically though some may disagree.

At the end of the hellhound episode, Dean did extend his trust when he gave Sam the spell. I believe Sam's speech moved and inspired him. After reciting the spell, Sam fell out, a light shot up his arm, and then he just repeats he can do this as if he's trying to reassure himself. I thought Jared did a good job of looking both scared in that instant as well as determined. Dean saw it too IMO. I think that's what caused Dean to falter a bit, which led to him telling Sam he could gank a hellhound and take over the trials in MBFWB. I know many thought Dean's feelings made no sense given the previous episode, but I always thought Dean's began to doubt his decision to allow Sam to do the trials after Sam fell out from reciting it. So, they have a discussion about trust, and at the end, Dean says he trusts Sam and basically tells Sam he's not going to try to usurp the trials anymore. Dean is 100% behind Sam, which makes Sam happy. Unfortunately, that's when Sam coughs up the blood. I thought Jared put on a very scared face in that moment. I agree that he didn't want to turn to Dean and say something after he insisted he would be fine and could handle the trials. It all made sense to me.

Quote:
And I really loved to see Dean's genuine concern and his fear for Sam . . .
What I loved about the episode was that Dean wasn't angry w/Sam for lying to him. I loved that he understood why Sam wasn't saying anything. I know many were saying Dean was going to get angry b/c Sam was lying again, so I was happy to see something different. I was happy to see Dean realize that Sam is not intentionally trying to hurt him. Dean recognizes that Sam is trying his best to handle his issues on his own w/o worrying his brother, and he just wants his brother to be okay. I loved that the brothers are more in tune w/each other than they've been in a few years it seems.
magichappening
# magichappening 2013-02-28 13:44
Quote:
What I loved about the episode was that Dean wasn't angry w/Sam for lying to him. I loved that he understood why Sam wasn't saying anything. I know many were saying Dean was going to get angry b/c Sam was lying again, so I was happy to see something different. I was happy to see Dean realize that Sam is not intentionally trying to hurt him. Dean recognizes that Sam is trying his best to handle his issues on his own w/o worrying his brother, and he just wants his brother to be okay. I loved that the brothers are more in tune w/each other than they've been in a few years it seems.
Agreed!
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-02-28 14:00
Great analysis, lala2. E, you mentioned a lot of the things I really liked but missed.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-02-28 17:49
Quote:
Quote:
And even though I was initially dreading it, not a bad take on the "Sam's hiding things again" trope. He isn't really deliberately hiding it from Dean so much as he seems scared shitless, and is beginning to doubt himself but doesn't want to make a fuss because he was so insistent about taking on the remainder of the trials after completing the first one.
See, I thought this was very clear in the last episode as well, which is why I was never upset w/Sam not saying anything. I think they have played both boys' feelings very realistically though some may disagree.

At the end of the hellhound episode, Dean did extend his trust when he gave Sam the spell. I believe Sam's speech moved and inspired him. After reciting the spell, Sam fell out, a light shot up his arm, and then he just repeats he can do this as if he's trying to reassure himself. I thought Jared did a good job of looking both scared in that instant as well as determined. Dean saw it too IMO. I think that's what caused Dean to falter a bit, which led to him telling Sam he could gank a hellhound and take over the trials in MBFWB. I know many thought Dean's feelings made no sense given the previous episode, but I always thought Dean's began to doubt his decision to allow Sam to do the trials after Sam fell out from reciting it. So, they have a discussion about trust, and at the end, Dean says he trusts Sam and basically tells Sam he's not going to try to usurp the trials anymore. Dean is 100% behind Sam, which makes Sam happy. Unfortunately, that's when Sam coughs up the blood. I thought Jared put on a very scared face in that moment. I agree that he didn't want to turn to Dean and say something after he insisted he would be fine and could handle the trials. It all made sense to me.

Quote:
And I really loved to see Dean's genuine concern and his fear for Sam . . .
What I loved about the episode was that Dean wasn't angry w/Sam for lying to him. I loved that he understood why Sam wasn't saying anything. I know many were saying Dean was going to get angry b/c Sam was lying again, so I was happy to see something different. I was happy to see Dean realize that Sam is not intentionally trying to hurt him. Dean recognizes that Sam is trying his best to handle his issues on his own w/o worrying his brother, and he just wants his brother to be okay. I loved that the brothers are more in tune w/each other than they've been in a few years it seems.
i totally agree. ;-)
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-02-28 08:42
Caught only the end of the episode where Dean was praying to Cas. Why would he do that since Cas is the one who has continually hurt Sam? In season 4 he was part of the reason for the wedge between the brothers and he had a direct role in starting the apocalypse. He broke Sam's wall and caused him tremendous amounts of pain. So why would Dean think he would help Sam? He would be the last person I would have asked for help for Sam given his track record. Also, given how Dean holds grudges why has he seemed to have forgiven Cas for everything he's done but won't forgive his brother for being soulless which again was Cas's fault?
So Cas gets a hand-wave for everything he's done and Sam gets dumped on? Doesn't sit well for me.
E
# E 2013-02-28 09:28
Well, to be fair, Cas HAS helped Sam.... he 'healed' him of his crazy in season 7. I know that a lot of people didn't like this resolution (I myself wasn't thrilled with how easy it was) but the point is, Cas healed Sam. It's logical for Dean to assume at this point that Cas can watch out for Sam or heal him if he needs it; Cas has healing powers after all. But I agree with njspnfan above, I'll bet Cas won't be able to heal Sam when it comes to the side affects of these trials. He's not suffering from a normal illness or a broken wall or anything like that, its part of a binding contract and comes with the trails. My thought is, no illness no trials. I'll bet Cas won't be able to do anything... and Dean won't be happy.
Gerry
# Gerry 2013-02-28 09:33
This season Dean suspects Cas is being controlled in some way by persons unknown and that he may have murdered Samandriel because of that control. Sam and Dean warded a room against Cas to talk about their suspicions. That seems pretty relevant to putting Sam in Cas's hands.
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 09:50
Gerry,
I think you're jumping the gun here storywise. Dean knows something is off with Cas, but we have not seen or heard him speculate he is being controlled. Cas said he killed Samandriel because he was a threat. We the viewer know about Naomi pulling the strings, but the boys only know something again is up with Cas, and now he's gone missing for several weeks. And Dean asked Cas to look out for his little brother, he is not relying on Cas to fully take Sam under his wing so to speak.
Gerry
# Gerry 2013-02-28 10:20
In "Torn and Frayed" the boys ward Rufus' cabin against Cas so they can discuss their suspicions about Cas in light of him killing Samandriel.

SAM spray-paints the Enochian angel-warding symbol on the door.


SAM
Okay. That should do it. Cas can't see or hear us now.


DEAN
Okay, what the hell?


SAM
I know.


DEAN
I told you something was off with him since he got back from Purgatory.


SAM
So, what, you think someone's messing with him or something?


DEAN
Who?


SAM
Angels?


DEAN
Why would the angels have him kill another angel?


The boys specifically discuss Cas being made to kill Samandriel and they don't want Cas to over hear their suspicions. They suspect Cas is being messed with more than they suspect a deliberate betrayal, but the point is they can't trust him either way. So Dean praying to Cas for help with Sam is a very odd choice, while they still don't know what is up with him.
Ale
# Ale 2013-02-28 11:25
Maybe, but Dean knows that Cas, in the end, is a good person/angel, and no matter what is happening to him, he would do anything he could to help them.
E
# E 2013-02-28 15:57
Yes, but Dean still knows that Cas possesses the ABILITY to save Sam and has done so before, while Dean knows he might be powerless to help. So, suspicious or no, I still think that Dean's asking makes sense.
Gerry
# Gerry 2013-03-02 11:14
But the point is Dean cannot trust that Cas, for reasons as yet unknown, may not kill Sam instead. It's not that Cas is powerless, it's that he is either being controlled or he's up to no good and lying about it. He set off to rescue Samandriel and ended up killing him in murky circumstances Dean finds very suspicious.

He and Sam actively warded Rufus's cabin before talking about Cas. Why would he now actively invite Cas in when nothing has changed about Dean's suspicions? Rather than lifting a burden from Dean's shoulders, Cas introduces more complications. As far as Dean knows, he may have to rescue Cas from some terrible power and Cas himself is dangerous to Sam and Dean if he's being controlled.. It seems to me story logic would not suggest Cas represents safety to Dean right now when Cas's "rescue" of Samandriel ended in Cas possibly murdering him.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-02 12:42
Gerry, I can see your point, but Dean calling Cas doesn't bother me, even though maybe it should. I just figured he is starting to feel a little desperate. And despite what he has done, Cas is the person he closest to after Sam-now that Bobby is gone. Like he needed to feel like he's not alone in getting Sam through the trials.
Gerry
# Gerry 2013-03-02 17:21
For me, the only way I can accept Dean feeling calling Cas is a way to lift some of his burden is to forget the scene where the boys warded the cabin against Cas to discuss their suspicions. Otherwise, it makes no little sense he would want Sam in Castiel's hands right now--because he has a strong suspicion it wouldn't be Castiel's hands, not really, and it sure didn't help Samandriel to have Cas "rescue" him.

I'm so tired of the writing this year where the writers create situations they then ignore in later scenes where those situations are relevant. For me, the prayer was powerful solely because Jensen Ackles infused it with everything he had, not the writing. Dan Loflin owes him big time.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-02 18:04
Again I see your point. And maybe it will bother more with frequent rewatches. But another take on is that maybe he is hoping Cas would respond if Dean is worried about Sam, since he wasn't responding otherwise. But it probably won't help since this is clearly a big issue for you. I had similar issues with them giving up so easy against the witches in Shut Up Dr Phil in the midst of the whole Amy debacle-that episode is still hard for me to watch.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-02 19:18
Oh my yes! I have to kill Amy because she was killing to save her son, but let's not try too hard with the witches who have killed people, while we were in town because it's too hard to try again? Or really because if one of the witches is male they live.
E
# E 2013-03-03 11:24
I guess I am not seeing why you find it so hard to believe that Dean would ask Cas for help. I understand that the boys believe that Cas could be compromised and they are certainly suspicious of what is going on with him. But this is Sam we are talking about here. Dean has shown time and time again that he is willing to risk anything with anyone when it comes to Sam. This is a man whose been willing to call on God, deal with demons and with the devil himself, a man who sold his soul for his brother; none of whom Dean trusts, just for the sake of saving Sam. Asking Cas, whom he has a history with and whom he knows has the power to help makes sense to me even though he is suspicious of what is going on with him. In that last scene Dean even says something along the lines of "for everything we've been through...." which basically amounts to "you owe me" so I don't find it that far of a stretch for Dean to ask.
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-03 11:28
Perfectly said E!
Gerry
# Gerry 2013-03-03 12:09
But the issue I have is nothing to do with Cas owing anything--I have no doubt at all Dean would call on Cas for help in ordinary circumstances, even with the past issues between Sam and Cas. I believe Dean believes Cas truly repents.

The issue is: is Cas a safe person to ask for help at this particular point in time? The very last scene involving Cas, Dean and Sam so little trusted what was up with their friend, they wouldn't even talk about it without warding the cabin against him. They were horrified at the killing of Samandriel and sure something about it was very off. They wondered if Cas was being controlled and made to kill Samandriel.

I don't see how to draw an emotional line from there to the prayer--yet there has been no development since then. Why would Dean not worry whoever is controlling Cas would hurt Sam? Why would he not worry that not only would calling Cas not alleviate any pressure about Sam, it would add pressure about Castiel?

I don't see how those two scenes flow from one to the other.

Past times Dean has dealt with characters he doesn't trust, he knows very well he doesn't trust them and goes in with a plan. He doesn't call on them for help because he thinks their presence will make him feel less alone and helpless. In normal circumstances, I believe he would call on Cas for this kind of help--just not when he thinks Cas is being controlled by an unknown force that can make him kill.
Arad
# Arad 2013-03-03 12:30
I also found it very strange when looked at in that context but I just assumed Dean had weighed the risk of contacting Cas against the potential benefit for Sam during the trials. Since he prayed to Cas I have to assume he judge the benefit as outweighing the risk. I don't necessarily agree but it made a nice piece of TV and reminded us that Cas is still in the mix. Also, I imagined the thorough angel-proofing of the cabin was because they were speculating and didn't want Cas to be aware of it in case they were right, not that it meant they would avoid direct contact with him in future. They want to control what Cas knows about what they know about him, rather than go into complete hiding. I think, maybe!! :-)
Gerry
# Gerry 2013-03-03 12:55
Arad, I agree that the angel proofing was to make sure Cas didn't know they suspected him of anything, not a sign they would not contact him at all--we know they have tried to contact him since he disappeared.

But contacting him to see if they can get a bead on what's up with him in my mind is a very different thing to contacting him to put Sam in his hands. One keeps the trust issue in mind; one ignores it. I was already thinking it would be peculiar if the boys shared everything about the bunker and MOL freely with Cas at this point, until they know what's what. But risking Sam's safety . . . I think all Dean's intuition would be screaming "no"--his intuition that something is not right with Cas has been pinging since Cas got out of Purgatory.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-03 13:21
Calling Cas for help after they warded the cabin to keep him from hearing their conversation makes little to no sense to me. I mean, I see that they wanted to let viewers know that Cas was coming back soon and remind us that he's still out there, but Dean saw him kill Samandriel and thinks something is off. If season 6 and 7 had never happened, Dean could think that Cas couldn't go too far off the rails. But Dean has seen that Cas can make big destructive mistakes, so he's not infallible.

The big problem for me is that this means the writers aren't keeping continuity within this season, let alone across the entire series. That worries me.

I can accept that Cas can find the boys while they are driving down the road, even though they both should still have the Enochian symbols that keep any angel from finding them still on their ribs. I GET that those symbols were a way to hand wave why the angels didn't just find Sam and Dean in season five and pressure them to say yes. I GET that they are no longer useful to the story and in fact are a hindrance, so they are being ignored. But the last time Dean and Sam saw Cas, they agreed that something was wrong. NOW Dean decides, oh well, let's call the angel that may have something wrong with him, the same one who broke Sam's mind the last time he had something wrong with him. It's not even about forgiveness, it's about trusting someone they didn't trust the last time they saw him.
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-03 13:19
My take on that scene was that they had a little WTH moment but did not immediately jump to the conclusion that Cas was untrustworthy. I sort of liken it to someone taking a private concern into another room to discuss it out of earshot. They have a legitimate reason to distrust angels in general, thus the extra precaution. They have no idea who might be involved or in control but Cas hasn't been shown as untrustworthy yet (in this season!), or done anything Dean to think he would harm Sam.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-03 13:59
Which is fine, except he HAS harmed Sam in the past and he did it before he was possessed by the Leviathans. To me it would be as if I had been married to someone who abused my kids when he drank. He goes through counseling, and stops drinking and has apologized and seems to have his life together. I still wouldn't leave my kids with him unsupervised. No matter how much he has tried to change I could never trust him completely again. And this would be especially true if I saw him acting "off" the way he did while drinking in some way.

I have stated in the past that I don't personally feel that Cas has done enough to repent and be forgiven, but the writers have decided that he has and that's the way it is. Dean still should act like a thinking human being who cares about his brother's safety. He was concerned enough about Cas to talk to Sam about it. He knows Cas can be and has been dangerous. He has seen him kill ANOTHER angel the same day he talked about saving Samandriel because he had killed so many angels that this would help him atone. All this should give Dean pause about entrusting Sam's well being to Castiel. It should really give him pause to call Castiel from A SECRET BUNKER, that is supposed to be shielded from all supernatural beings. Dean could at least have taken a drive to the local McDonald's and made the call there. Nothing like a neon sign saying MOL bunker here, get your secrets.
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-03 14:20
I understand Percy, I do. I just tend to fall in with those who feel that Cas has done everything in his power to try to repent and make amends for his sins. That doesn't erase them, I agree. But they have decided to trust him again again. They feel and I feel that Cas is genuinely remorseful. I think they are showing caution though, and they should. They are not jumping to conclusions yet. When it comes to Sam though, Dean tends to throw caution to the wind in his worry for his brother. Hasn't always resulted in good decisions! Agree to diagree?
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-03 14:33
Agree to disagree is fine.
Gerry
# Gerry 2013-03-03 14:21
I think Cas killing Samandriel in suspicious circumstances would lead Dean to question putting a vulnerable Sam in Cas's hands. To me, considering whether Cas is being controlled by someone takes Cas out of "safe" territory.

I don't think the boys were warding the cabin against angels in general. Sam specifically says to Dean that now Cas can't see or hear them. They are concerned about him in particular. Dean's been concerned about something being off with Cas since Cas got out of Purgatory with no explanation. Killing Samandriel isn't the first suspicious thing making Dean's intuition ping.

And if his intuition is pinging that hard about Cas, I don't understand why the thought of putting Sam under his care would feel good.
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-03 14:53
I don't completely disagree, I just think that, as I said above, that Dean throws all caution out the window when it comes to his brothers welfare. Having his intuition pinging is not the same as thinking Cas is betraying them again. Maybe their experiences in Purgatory has earned Cas the benefit of the doubt. I have no doubt that he and Sam will be scrutinizing Cas very very closely.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-03 13:44
It just shows that Dean was desperate and very worried about Sam.
E
# E 2013-03-04 08:31
Crossroads demon's aren't safe people to ask either, but that didn't stop Dean from making his deal. Asking Cas, even a potentially compromised one is far safer than dealing with Death, Crowley, Angles or all the other demons and we've seen Dean do all these things multiple times. Asking Cas seems almost tame by comparison.
Gerry
# Gerry 2013-03-04 09:22
The prayer scene with Cas was very different in nature from Dean dealing with the Crossroads demon. Dean knew dealing with the demon was dangerous and morally wrong and he risked himself, not Sam. The prayer scene intimated Cas felt like support and relief to him. And I should say again that in regular circumstances, that would feel right to me, too.

But right now, Dean cannot assess how dangerous asking Cas for help is, so how can he know whether it's safer than asking angels gone bad or Crowley? He may BE asking angels gone bad or Crowley, since Cas doesn't seem to be in control of some of his actions. Until Dean knows who's behind Cas killing Samandriel, he's dealing with the unknown and not a friendly one.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-02-28 10:25
Quote:
I think you're jumping the gun here storywise. Dean knows something is off with Cas, but we have not seen or heard him speculate he is being controlled. Cas said he killed Samandriel because he was a threat. We the viewer know about Naomi pulling the strings, but the boys only know something again is up with Cas, and now he's gone missing for several weeks. And Dean asked Cas to look out for his little brother, he is not relying on Cas to fully take Sam under his wing so to speak.
Yes, Nate, thank you.
Gerry
# Gerry 2013-02-28 11:02
In "Torn and Frayed," Sam and Dean ward Rufus' cabin against Cas in order to discuss their suspicions he's being controlled and that's why he killed Samandriel. They don't know about Naomi yet, but they don't trust what happened around Samandriel's death or Cas getting out of Purgatory and their best guess is someone is messing with Castiel.
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 11:20
Gerry--thanks for the refresher on that, I do remember it now. I need to start taking my ginko biloba :)
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 09:31
Hi Jo1027,
In Season 4 Cas was doing what was better for the cause, but did come around to "Team Winchester/Free Will." He broke the wall in Season 6, but since then has been focused on making up for all his bad deeds. He did take over Sam's Hell visions, that speaks volumes. Cas does not want to hurt Sam. Dean forgiving Cas has been in progress since Season 7. And not to mention all the Purgatory action, it's clear Dean and Cas are on good terms. There is no hand waving going on, this is ongoing for the past 2 years.
Dean was "praying" but also really needed a friend to talk to. He knows Sam is hurting (love that Dean is aware and understands Sam's wanting to protect Dean) and wants to know where the heck Cas is.
On the comment Dean won't forgive Sam for being soulless, I don't recall that being the case? Sam had no control over being soulless, and Cas bringing Sam back, did not intend to bring him back sans soul.
Amy
# Amy 2013-02-28 10:55
I fully beleive Castiel purposely brought Sam from Hell without his soul and purposely wile in league with Crowly used Souless Sam to captuer Alpha Monsters

Cas NEVER said.

When Sam point blank asked Cas is he had brought him back souless Cas said "How can you think that?" Classic evasion of the truth wiithout telling the lie. Answer a question with a question AN turning it back on the questioner in a way to make them feel bad for asking.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-02-28 11:09
Quote:
I fully beleive Castiel purposely brought Sam from Hell without his soul and purposely wile in league with Crowly used Souless Sam to captuer Alpha Monsters

Cas NEVER said.

When Sam point blank asked Cas is he had brought him back souless Cas said "How can you think that?" Classic evasion of the truth wiithout telling the lie. Answer a question with a question AN turning it back on the questioner in a way to make them feel bad for asking.
Amy - this was addressed in 6.20 The Man Who Would Be King. Cas indicated he went back to hell to raise Sam from perdition but that it was shear hubris/pride (something along those lines) that he missed the fact that he didn't raise all of Sam. I don't think Cas would have intentionally done that to Sam at that point; this was at a time right after S5, way before he broke the wall in Sam's head at the end of S6 and before he made the deal with Crowley. Also keep in mind that Cas became very protective of Sam in S5.
eilf
# eilf 2013-02-28 13:12
I think Cas was genuinely horrified that Sam would think that. I don't think it was on purpose.

It is possible that he did the rescuing in league with Crowley (because he shouldn't have been strong enough to do it on his own) and Crowley interfered and split Sam from his soul for the reasons you say. But personally I am certain Cas didn't.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 14:04
I know some dislike Castiel, but why would he have intentionally raised Sam w/o his soul at that point in the show?!?!?

It was right after SS. Castiel was feeling good and wanted to do something for Dean. That's why he went to Hell and grabbed Sam. He said he was shocked and surprised when Sam just left and didn't reach out to Dean. I think he said he should have known something was wrong w/Sam at that point but he just flitted away.

I hate that Castiel broke Sam's Wall but I could not say he intentionally returned Sam w/o a soul.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-02-28 14:12
Quote:
I know some dislike Castiel, but why would he have intentionally raised Sam w/o his soul at that point in the show?!?!?

It was right after SS. Castiel was feeling good and wanted to do something for Dean. That's why he went to Hell and grabbed Sam. He said he was shocked and surprised when Sam just left and didn't reach out to Dean. I think he said he should have known something was wrong w/Sam at that point but he just flitted away.

I hate that Castiel broke Sam's Wall but I could not say he intentionally returned Sam w/o a soul.
Possibly, I didn't pay as much attention to the details during S6 as I could have but I came away from that season thinking that Castiel raised Sam from Hell without a soul on purpose to help fulfil Castiel's plans including a deal with Crowley. In fact, I sort of preferred my understanding of the plot that way because it made more sense to me in explaining some elements of Soulless!Sam and his (and the Campbell's) behaviour, as well as some of Crowley and Cas' behaviour later in the season.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 16:23
Ciar, he really didn't.

Castiel was watching Dean and thought Dean looked unhappy. He then said he knew how to make Dean happier. He may have also said that Sam deserved a better fate than the one he got . . . I can't quite remember the exact words.

Cas decided to go to Lucifer's Cage to retrieve Sam. He primarily did this for Dean IIRC. He mentions that he should have known he couldn't do it (i.e., rescue Sam) all by himself or that he shouldn't have been so arrogant to think he could rescue Sam but he did it anyway.

He dropped Sam off in front of Lisa's house. Cas fully expected Sam to go up to Dean and for the brothers to be reunited, but that's not what happened. He was surprised when Sam just walked away. He mentions that he should have known something was wrong then, but he chose to ignore the oddness of Sam's behavior and went away.

I actually liked that episode quite a bit and thought it was very effective at explaining Castiel and giving him some POV. It's why I wish they had done a similar episode for Sam in S4 or heck, in the beginning of this season.
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 16:37
lala2, funny you mention that, TNT today ran "Swan Song." That episode was a high point for the series, the only problem is it came too late in the Season. It beautifully filled in parts of Season 6 we were not as clear as the season went on, and also was a good companion to "Swan Song." If you remember at end of Swan Song, the light above Sam flickered, as it did when Angels were around. Going into Season 6 I thought a possibility was Sam was somehow an Angel because of the flicker, but I was glad to see it explained it was really Cas having just dropped Sam off.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 20:44
Yes, I remember the light flickering. My friend and I actually thought Sam had become a "demon." I know it doesn't make sense, but it's what we were thinking. Hahaha :-)
Trucklady
# Trucklady 2013-02-28 22:26
Quote:
He dropped Sam off in front of Lisa's house.
Actually that is not correct. Sam told Dean that he woke up in the field alone and it was raining. Cas did not take Sam to Dean. We were left to assume that Sam came looking for Dean at Lisa's hoping he did what he promised Sam he would do.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-01 08:26
Trucklady, you are correct. Sam did wake up in the field. I do remember Castiel watched Sam outside Dean's house and was surprised when Sam just walked away. Plus, Sam did say he called for Castiel but he never answered.

In any event, my main point is Cas did not intentionally raise Sam soulless. I think the episode makes that very clear. He was actually trying to do something nice for Dean so it really doesn't make sense that he would bring Sam back without a soul on purpose.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 11:09
Quote:
On the comment Dean won't forgive Sam for being soulless, I don't recall that being the case?
In that penny episode, Dean mentions being upset w/Sam for not telling him (Dean) that he (Sam) was soulless. It was very strange and really makes no sense, but clearly, deep down . . . possibly way deep down . . . Dean resents Sam for being soulless.

Again, it makes no sense given that Sam had no control over being soulless, but it is clearly still upsetting to Dean.
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 11:18
lala2,
Got it now. I agree Dean was upset Sam didn't tell Dean he was soulless, but Sam did not really know that until Cas verified it. Sam knew he was not sleeping, etc. etc., but remember he had no emotional connection to Dean (or anyone), so I don't agree Dean is still angry over that. It was not "Sammy" keeping a secret.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 12:54
Quote:
. . . I don't agree Dean is still angry over that. It was not "Sammy" keeping a secret.
I would then ask why it was even mentioned in the penny episode during Dean's rant?

My honest opinion is that that whole rant was done for the sole purpose of having conflict btw the brothers. IIRC, Dean doesn't mention how Sam never looked for him or just accepted his death and got a GF. That would have been an understandable source of anger, but he mentions Sam's numerous lies in S4 and the soulless thing over which Sam had NO control.

I think we're supposed to believe Dean does blame Sam for being soulless and is upset w/him for being that way. Does he still feel that way? Who knows? That's one of Carver's dropped plots it seems!
eilf
# eilf 2013-02-28 13:23
I am really stating to think that we are supposed to take that incident as: well the soulless thing is clearly unreasonable so we should take it that Dean didn't mean any of the rest of it either, it was just the spectre using his memories and turning them to blame.

Dean says he doesn't remember what he said and Sam still has some residual guilt about some of it (which he really shouldn't at this stage - specifically the soullessness - and the line about everything over the years being to deceive Dean was just ....) so he reacted as if he believed Dean meant all of it.

I really dislike that whole episode ... they could have left it just with the stuff that Dean has a reason to be angry about (ie this season's problems) and then there would be some chance of fixing it. But, ancient history! *sigh*

(heh, I just reread your post lala and I realize my last 2 paragraphs are making exactly the same points as you - so apologies for the repetition)
Leah
# Leah 2013-02-28 13:45
lala, that is why the whole spectre things makes me crazy. All this crap was thrown in to create conflict. Now and forever it will keep being brought up. I agree lala, that what should have been brought up was what Dean was really angry about at the time. Not that some of the stuff wasn't underlying but why go there? I still have a problem with SS getting thrown in the mix when Dean knows full well that Sam wasn't in any way responsible for that! THAT to me was a writers mistake and should have been caught.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 14:19
Eilf & Leah - I agree w/you both! The penny episode really didn't make much sense.

Instead of blaming Sam for being soulless (which makes ZERO sense), Dean should have been ranting and raving about Sam not investigating his disappearance and not looking for him. But they (the writers) seemed really eager to have Dean list all Sam's mistakes, make it crystal clear that Dean has major issues w/Sam, and make it clear that Dean sees Benny as a better brother to him than Sam has EVER been in Sam's ENTIRE life.

They didn't hold back w/that one! I got a S&V feeling from it. That's why it's so frustrating that it all seemed for naught. Dean's rant was never really addressed. Does he still hold these resentments? Will they surface some time in S9 or S10? What is at the root of Dean's anger/resentmen t of Sam?

I actually don't have a problem w/the substance of Dean's rant (soulless part aside). My main problem is there seems to have been no point to the rant. I kept hearing that the boys were going to have this real honest talk, and I assumed (bad move on my part) that any talk would address the issues raised in the penny episode but it didn't.

Don't get me wrong, I love the speeches in the hellhound episode, but it wasn't what I was expecting. We, or rather I'm just left w/more unresolved angst and conflict. I'm not sure what to make of what we saw.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-02-28 15:22
I liked the Dean's rant at the time, because even though I didn't think it was in anyway fair to Sam (well except not looking for Dean), but I thought it was like rebreaking a bone that didn't set correctly the first time. I can understand Dean's resentments, even if they are not really fair, I thought maybe this was a way to deal with unresolved issues. But they really haven't done anything with it so far, except last week with Sam saying Dean doesn't trust anyone but himself. But I hope that isn't the only payoff for that episode.
eilf
# eilf 2013-02-28 15:26
Yes that was how I felt at the time too, but now, so many weeks later, it seems like it was just unnecessary and unpleasant.
Leah
# Leah 2013-02-28 15:31
Yes exactly.
st50
# st50 2013-02-28 15:35
I didn't like it the first time, either... But I had hoped it would lead somewhere.
So many things have been unsatisfactoril y resolved this season, and I don't have any hope they'll get back to all of them with only 7 episodes left to go.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 16:03
Yup! I can't say I ever agreed w/the rant b/c it was particularly harsh to me. Dean basically said Sam had been deceiving him since they hooked back up in Season 1! And the whole part about Benny being a better brother to him than Sam has ever been in his whole life was way OTT.

That said, I did believe those issues would eventually get addressed but they basically faded away. Like Kelly said, we got a brief acknowledgment in last week's episode when Sam said Dean only trusted himself but that appears to be all we're going to get.

As you said, Eilf, I can't help but consider the commetns unnecessary, OTT, and unpleasant.
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 15:41
When, where, what scene did Dean, totally sober, blame Sam for coming back from Hell without a soul? Did I miss something? Dean thinks Sam CHOSE to come back without a soul? Is that what these comments are about? I really don't recall that happening. If it did, Dean is out of his mind crazy......
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-02-28 15:46
It was in Southern Comfort. He didn't actually say he blamed him for being soulless, but he blamed him for things he did while he was soulless, which amounts to the same thing.
st50
# st50 2013-02-28 15:49
He WAS out of his mind crazy, Nate. It was the spectre episode when Dean said all that....
But they brought it up as if they wanted to deal with all the past, and then.. nothing... no discussion, no resolution. We're just wondering what was the point.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 16:09
Nate, in the episode w/the evil penny/Spectre, we get a chance to hear some of Dean's old, or rather buried, resentments. One of those resentments is Sam returning soulless. I don't remember the wording of the rant but he does say Sam came back soulless and didn't tell him. It sounded - to me - as if Dean actually blamed Sam for being soulless in the first place.

How I understood the episode was that the Spectre/penny caused old hurts/resentmen ts to rise to the surface. I'm someone who can keep a grudge so it was never unbelievable to me that someone might still resent someone else for something that happened years ago (i.e., the bad call at that baseball game, the husband dancing w/some other girl at a HS dance).

So, I saw Dean's rant as him giving voice to actual resentments he may have toward Sam. They may be buried deep in his subconscious, but on some level, he has issues w/Sam for the reasons he stated. He feels the things he said on some level and in some way.

That was my take on the episode.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-02-28 14:07
My honest opinion is the rant was set up to remind viewers that Sam is not the favored brother, nor should he be. Dean laid out every single thing that Sam has done wrong, just so we wouldn't get the idea that we are supposed to like or support Sam.
Leah
# Leah 2013-02-28 15:12
I don't agree with that at all. Most of us love Sam as well. This was done purely to fan the conflict flames. And it worked for them and for us. As was the not looking and the no real explanation for it. As was all the stuff that was said and done between them in the months since. One could also support a case that we were not supposed to like or support Dean either.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 15:55
Percy, if that was their goal, I think they failed miserably. Dean came off like an ass to me. His rant was OTT, and he said some pretty harsh stuff to Sam. The comment about Sam deceiving him ever since he got in the Impala back in S1 and about Benny being a better brother to him than Sam has EVER been were particularly cold.

I found Dean's rant very similar to Sam's cutting remarks in S&V. Both brothers came off like jerks to me in both instances.

I don't think we were meant to agree w/Dean just like I don't think we were meant to agree w/Sam in S&V.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-02-28 16:59
Quote:
I don't think we were meant to agree w/Dean just like I don't think we were meant to agree w/Sam in S&V.
Leah, I agree.

Are we supposed to take everything Sam says to Dean or vice-versa as the writers' own propaganda?

Do we really believe that their opinion of us is so low that they would expect us not to independently evaluate Sam and Dean's words?

Every time Sam or Dean makes a mistake - are we to believe that it is a merely a ploy by writers to make the character look bad?

Do we only read novels in which the main characters are good all the time and never say or do hurtful/wrong things?

...I'm pretty sure creative writing doesn't work that way.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-02-28 17:22
Bamboo24, I don't think we were meant to take all these accusations to heart, but they were injurious to Sam because we had just spent several episodes with the knowledge that Sam didn't look for Dean-now we are reminded of all Sam past transgressions on top of that. They even threw in a few that weren't his fault. Now the intention of doing so may have been to make the whole thing seem irrational but I don't think it had that effect because of its context within the season.

Now for me, Sam's S&V rant had the opposite effect. I felt horrible for Dean. I felt it was one of the few times Sam was truly cruel, even if he was under the siren's influence. Again because of the context of the season. Dean had just confessed and now it was being used against by someone he loved.

Both times Dean was the more sympathetic character IMO, even though this time is accusations against Sam were very unfair-well except not looking for him.
Leah
# Leah 2013-02-28 18:57
Kelly, he may have started out more sympathetically but you factor in the infamous rant and the text, and the better brother comments, Dean was looking pretty damn bad. I recall words like dick, douche bag, jerk. Even though I never doubted Dean's love for his bro, it was getting hard to defend him as written. So in short both looked both sympathetic and like jerks at various moments early on IMO. AND after all that drama there was no logical progression of events that got us to this point. No heart to hearts (not that that is their style), a lot of what transpired wasn't resolved just ignored. I'm happy that things are better. I don't love it when they are mean to each other for weeks on end.You probably do, angst lover!! :-)
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-02-28 19:29
Now, Leah, I said I liked GOOD angst. :D I loved S5 because it was all earned, but if this season I just don't know. Like I said I liked SC to begin with. But they haven't done anything with it so it feels meaningless and contrived. If it had been the lead in to get to the root of their problems, I would have been a happy girl.

And I can see what you're saying about Dean in that episode, but the episode ended with Sam's only defense being "You had secrets. You had Benny." Which is equivalent of calling someone a poop face, sure it's an insult but it doesn't even sting really. It was kinda pathetic. If there was a followup to the episode that would have been one thing but so far there hasn't been and so Sam takes another hit IMO.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 20:54
If Dean's rant had been restricted to Sam not looking for him, which I don't think he ever mentions during the rant, then he would have seemed more sympathetic to me. As it stands, je just went on and on about stuff over which Sam had no control or past hurts that were thought to be forgiven.

Having him basically say he's never trusted Sam and believes a vampire he just met is a better brother than Sam has EVER been was way OTT in my opinion.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-02-28 16:52
Quote:
My honest opinion is the rant was set up to remind viewers that Sam is not the favored brother, nor should he be. Dean laid out every single thing that Sam has done wrong, just so we wouldn't get the idea that we are supposed to like or support Sam.
That's funny - I still like and support Sam, and a plethora of other fans do as well. I haven't gotten that impression at all. So I suppose if that was their motive, then they sure did fail.
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 15:39
lala2, What is the penny episode? I am not sure what everyone is talking about. I want to be sure I understand before I respond.
st50
# st50 2013-02-28 15:44
Southern Comfort, Nate.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 16:16
Thanks, st50! For the life of me, I could not remember the actual title of the episode, and I was too lazy to look it up. Hahaha :-)
eilf
# eilf 2013-02-28 15:57
Transcript from Southern Comfort:

DEAN
Shut up! [to GARTH, who makes a move towards his belt for a weapon] Don't! [to SAM] You never even wanted this life. Always blamed me for pulling you back into it.

SAM
That's not true.

DEAN
Really? 'Cause everything you've ever done since you climbed into my ride has been to deceive me.

SAM
What do you want me to say? That I've made mistakes? I've made mistakes, Dean.

GARTH
That's not Dean, Sam.

DEAN
Shut up! Mistakes? Well, let's go through some of Sammy's greatest hits. Drinking demon blood, check. Being in cahoots with Ruby. Not telling me that you lost your soul. Or how about running around with Samuel for a whole year, letting me think that you were dead while you're doing all kinds of crazy. Those aren't mistakes, Sam. Those are choices!


What Garth says here is important but the rest of it is so overwhelming that it might as well not have been said. I stick with my previous thought that most of it is so unreasonable as to say that NONE of it is truly how Dean feels. Just the spectre using his memories to make issues.
eilf
# eilf 2013-02-28 16:00
Actually the scene gets worse from there on - I REALLY don't like this episode :cry:
st50
# st50 2013-02-28 16:04
Quote:
T
What Garth says here is important but the rest of it is so overwhelming that it might as well not have been said. I stick with my previous thought that most of it is so unreasonable as to say that NONE of it is truly how Dean feels. Just the spectre using his memories to make issues.
Agreed, eilf.
The fact that they never bothered to clear the air and deal with ANY of the issues they brought up or manufactured this season leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
Unlike in S&V, they had a witness. The writers could've had Garth tell Dean what he said, and then tell him to make it right with Sam.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-02-28 16:23
Quote:
most of it is so unreasonable as to say that NONE of it is truly how Dean feels. Just the spectre using his memories to make issues.
I don't think the resentments could be forced upon the person in the episode. All the other people had specific resentments against everyone they went after, however weak. What it seemed to do was amplify those resentments. So somewhere down deep Dean is still upset at Sam for what happened in the past, even the things that happened when he was soulless.

I DID like it, but now along with most of the first half of the season, I don't know what to do with it. I'm not sure where it fits in with where we are at now. And I just don't know what they were doing with Sam. So I can't really enjoy watching them right now or perhaps ever if the big problems aren't resolved.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 16:58
Quote:
I don't think the resentments could be forced upon the person in the episode. All the other people had specific resentments against everyone they went after, however weak. What it seemed to do was amplify those resentments. So somewhere down deep Dean is still upset at Sam for what happened in the past, even the things that happened when he was soulless.
Exactly! Some people seem reluctant to accept this, but as you said, somewhere deep down in Dean's subconscious, he resents Sam for the things he mentioned. He feels those things on some level.

I always felt Sam meant the things he said in S&V on some level, and I feel Dean meant the things he said in SC.
Leah
# Leah 2013-02-28 19:17
lala, I had a few discussions about this and one of the points I tried to make is that the spectre had to dig down pretty deep to bring up some of that (sometimes very petty) stuff. I always felt that Dean at one time or another had felt some of the things that he spewed during that scene. But I also thought that he had forgiven Sam for much of it and did not go around with that boiling just under the surface in his daily life. I had a hard time with the Dean doesn't love Sam and has never forgiven Sam comments that were generated because of that rant. I know others disagree, that is ok with me.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 19:47
Leah, I'm not sure what to make of Dean's speech. Like you, I also thought Dean had forgiven Sam for his past choices in S4, and I never thought he actually held Sam's time while soulless agaisnt him but this episode caused me to change my mind.

I honestly don't know. I think that Dean on a very deep subconscious level has some issues w/Sam that he's never addressed. It would have been good if Dean had addressed his problems w/Sam but Show didn't seem to have a real point to Dean's rant.

I definitely don't think Dean doesn't love Sam. He loves his brother very much!
Nate
# Nate 2013-03-01 08:35
In the quotes above from that episode, when Dean goes off, what is not 100% true about what he's saying? In the heat of the moment, he is venting about the choices Sam made. Dean is at this point upset about Sam not looking for him and quiting hunting. It was ANOTHER choice to add to the list. When someone is angry they will say things in the heat of the moment, even bringing up things from the past that are water under the bridge.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-01 22:42
Nate, the problem is that not only did he show that he was still holding things against Sam after Sam suffered 180 of horrendous torture (that should be enough punishment and redemption for anybody). But he showed he was also holding resentments against Sam for things that he had done while he was soulless, which he had zero control over. It was even really him, he was still being tortured. So Dean wasn't 100% correct.

I agree with lala2, they were resentments that were buried deep within Dean, not something he dwells on. But my point was that, because the show presented with the very understandable resentment of Sam not looking for him and then gave Sam no real defense against any of Dean's accusations, it had deleterious effect on Sam's character.
E
# E 2013-03-02 07:56
Quote:
In the quotes above from that episode, when Dean goes off, what is not 100% true about what he's saying?
Quote:
Not telling me that you lost your soul. Or how about running around with Samuel for a whole year, letting me think that you were dead while you're doing all kinds of crazy.
It's not so much about being true or untrue. (ALthough, the first line "Not telling me you lost your soul" is in fact untrue. Sam did not hide the fact he was soulless or lie to Dean about it, he was not aware of the fact that his soul was missing until Cas did the painful, body cavity soul searching thing.) It's more an issue of Dean being so grossly unfair in his continued resentments and blaming despite Sam having made great strides to atone, having so much time pass, and Dean's having given lip service to forgiving Sam for these transgressions. If he had ranted about being left in purgatory because Sam didn't look or leaving Kevin twisting in the wind, I would have at least understood the relevance and seen the point to Dean's being so harsh. But to claim Sam was hiding his soullessness is absolutely and totally untrue, he was NOT hiding it. And to then further bring up what Sam did while soulless and condemn him with it is grossly unfair, especially knowing how horrible Sam felt about what he'd done when he found out about it in Unforgiven. Sam only lost his soul to begin with because of his sacrifice to save the world in season 5. His deeds with Samuel in season 6 were beyond his control and a byproduct of his sacrifice. It was pretty vicious of Dean to throw those events in Sam's face Penny or no Penny.

Furthermore, the Ruby and demon blood issues; Sam only threw himself into Hell to begin with to atone for those exact "crimes." So, even though Sam admitted his mistakes, apologized multiple times and then made the ultimate self-sacrifice to help fix the problems he caused, Dean is resentful? Sam's sacrifice mean's nothing to Dean STILL? If Dean had truly forgiven Sam for these issues, then the penny would not have worked to dredge up these old hurts, like with Garth. This means that down deep, Dean still feels these things to some extent. The spectre when it first saw Dean at the hospital even said to him "Oh, the spectre likes you" as though recognizing a good victim when he saw one. It could actually smell Dean's unresolved issues on him.

I agree with Leah and Kelly, the focus of Dean's rant seemed really off in this scene. If it had focused more on the issues that Dean had a right to feel some resentment about, like leaving him in purgatory, it would have come off better and made Dean seem like less of a grudge holder.
st50
# st50 2013-03-02 09:24
Quote:
If Dean had truly forgiven Sam for these issues, then the penny would not have worked to dredge up these old hurts, like with Garth. This means that down deep, Dean still feels these things to some extent.
Well. S**t. I hadn't thought of it that way, E, but yes.. I guess that means Dean truly has to be feeling resentful for the issues he threw at Sam - on some level.
He hasn't let go of any of it, regardless of his other pretty speeches about clean slates.
Only Garth knows how to truly forgive? Ridiculous. After all these guys have been through.
What were these writers thinking? And why hasn't this been addressed again this season? What was the point?
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-02 11:53
What still irks me is that some of the examples were SOOO petty. The wife had to dredge up the almost forgotten memory of her husband taking someone else to the prom many years before. She had a problem with it at one time but had moved on and even married the guy. If the spectre hadn't used that, it might have stayed a distant memory. Dean WAS mad at Sam for some of these things at one time but the idea that he still goes around resenting Sam for everything he has ever done is hard for me to swallow. When you have a fight with a family and make up, is there EVER a completely clean slate? People always remember things that hurt even if they have forgiven and moved on. I know these two have some lingering issues that may never be completely resolved, that is why their relationship is so complex. I don't deny that Dean felt some of these things at one time but to give credence to the idea that Dean goes around resenting Sam constantly, wasn't giving enough credit to the evil influence and too much to the idea that Dean is an unforgiving brother!!
st50
# st50 2013-03-02 12:10
Quote:
I don't deny that Dean felt some of these things at one time but to give credence to the idea that Dean goes around resenting Sam constantly, wasn't giving enough credit to the evil influence and too much to the idea that Dean is an unforgiving brother!!
I agree, Leah.
What I really meant was....
I simply think it was totally unnecessary for the writers to go there, and then totally drop it. Again. Heck, we're still discussing stuff from the Asylum episode when Sam was manipulated, and S&V, and..... Been there, done that.
It's time for the writers to stop bringing up past grievances without some resolution.
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-02 12:24
Oh yes st50 we are in agreement. I wasn't irked at you, just the whole spectre thing in general. Some chose to see the ugly way it was presented as how Dean really feels about Sam. It was pointless except to ramp up the conflict and yes, with no resolution.
st50
# st50 2013-03-02 12:29
:-) Thanks Leah.
I don't often make my points clear, and I'm used to being misinterpreted. :lol:
I just hope Carver gets around to "letting the boys mature" and resolves all this artificial conflict crap the season started with.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-02 12:36
I agree, Leah and st50, it was the lack of resolution after bringing it up that really bothered me.
st50
# st50 2013-03-02 12:39
That and the whole "I don't hunt and I didn't look for Dean or Kevin"/ "better brother" crap.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-02 13:10
My real concern is they had Dean bring it up in order to remind us of all the bad things Sam did, in addition to not looking for Dean or Kevin in order to "surprise" us when Sam goes bad, yet again. Because Lord knows the show has never done THAT before.

I know I read that one of Kripke's ideas was that Dean would end up having to kill Sam to save the world. My big fear is that Carver decided that that would be a great idea and so he is moving Sam back to evil and that his turning evil will be the price for closing the Gates of Hell. In this case he is giving Dean people/vampires to turn to once he is forced to kill Evil!Sam. If that is the way they are going, I will be most unhappy.
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-02 13:34
OMG, I hope you are wrong about that one. Would they really be that stupid? People would storm the studio!
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-02 13:52
They would definitely lose me as a fan. But I don't think that can be what they are doing because even during the first part of the season they weren't setting up Sam as evil- merely unsympathetic (and even that isn't a consensus opinion). The first four seasons there was a well defined storyline that Sam might be on the path to evil. But the worst you can say about him right now is that he was a bad brother. I'll admit on this show that is a horrible offense. But still wouldn't be considered evil.
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-02 14:09
Me too :-) I have decided that should things continue to get worse my end-of-series (part of) episode will be at the hug in Like a Virgin! That works for me...
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-02 15:17
Sam has never been presented as "evil" IMO. Even during S4, I would call him misguided and arrogant before I'd call him evil. I don't consider SS to be "Sam" so Sam has never crossed into the "evil" category for me.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-02 15:25
Oh I agree. I don't think he ever crossed that line. But they did play we the idea for several years leading up to it.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-02 16:12
Lala
Even at the worst moment when Sam put the nurse in the 'boot' (you call it trunk) of the car, I felt absolutely heartbroken for him. I never doubted that he was doing it for what he believed to be saving the world from the apocalypse. I have never felt he was evil either. I have always said that Dean grabs my attention and I find myself always looking at him during the eps, however it is Sam that gets under my skin every time. I think that has always been the intention of TPTB
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-02 17:21
I also felt bad for him, and that's after I was ticked at him for strangling his brother in the prior episode! Like Kelly says, they played w/the idea of making Sam "evil," but they never truly made him evil. He never went full on dark, which is probably good considering the lack of POV they give Sam.
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-02 13:17
Amen, st50 :-)

PS- I have NEVER had an issue with any post you have ever made. We, and a handful of other people here, think very much alike and that is why I love it here.
st50
# st50 2013-03-02 13:20
:-)
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-02 14:29
Leah, I don't think Dean is walking around in a conscious state resenting Sam for past mistakes, but I do think the things he mentioned still bug/trouble him.

The woman may have married the guy, but she still resents him for taking another girl to prom. It was not a conscious anger but she never got over it.

So, I don't think on Dean's mind he still resents Sam for the bad choices Sam made, but on a deeper, subconscious level, there is some resentment and anger there. I don't know. It makes sense to me. As I said before, I can understand someone holding a grudge or not really forgiving someone for a perceived wrong. It doesn't make Dean a bad guy, IMO, just human.

The part of the rant that never made sense to me was the soulless stuff. Sam did not choose to be soulless and even SS didn't know he was soulless. It would be nice if they addressed Dean's rant but it doesn't look like they will.
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-02 16:06
lala, I just spent a long time writing a post that expressed my thoughts and accidently erased it all!! Not for the first time either. Anyway we are pretty close in our thinking. I think it is a matter of degree. I also think that there are still things that bother Dean (and Sam), but the spectre (and the ensuing murderous rant) made Dean look like he was furious and unforgiving with Sam for everything he had ever done. And that gets brought up in many comments. My point was that families have conflicts, wounds are created that may be forgiven but not forgotten. These are the things that the spectre latches onto and amplifies to a rage. Old wounds. About SS, just not a logical inclusion. And "not looking" not a logical exclusion.

My erased comment was brilliant however. :-) :-)
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-02 16:21
Quote:
My erased comment was brilliant however. :-) :-)
Those are always my best comments too!
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-02 16:51
Sorry, Leah! I hate when that happens!

I think we are pretty much in agreement. I honestly don't Dean is consciously walking around angry and upset w/Sam. When he said he was giving everyone a clean slate, I believe he believed that. However, deep down, Dean has issues/problems w/Sam that he's never really addressed or gotten over IMO.

I always took issue w/those who seemed to say Dean couldn't have had those thoughts or that the Spectre made Dean think those thoughts. I really don't believe that's what happened. I never thought Dr. Ellicott or the Siren influenced Sam's thoughts. I think in all those instances the supernatural creature exposed the brothers' true thoughts. Some seemed to think the brothers couldn't have those thoughts.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-03-03 11:57
Quote:
I always took issue w/those who seemed to say Dean couldn't have had those thoughts or that the Spectre made Dean think those thoughts. I really don't believe that's what happened. I never thought Dr. Ellicott or the Siren influenced Sam's thoughts. I think in all those instances the supernatural creature exposed the brothers' true thoughts. Some seemed to think the brothers couldn't have those thoughts.
agree
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-03 11:08
Quote:
Quote:
In the quotes above from that episode, when Dean goes off, what is not 100% true about what he's saying?
Quote:
Not telling me that you lost your soul. Or how about running around with Samuel for a whole year, letting me think that you were dead while you're doing all kinds of crazy.
It's not so much about being true or untrue. (ALthough, the first line "Not telling me you lost your soul" is in fact untrue. Sam did not hide the fact he was soulless or lie to Dean about it, he was not aware of the fact that his soul was missing until Cas did the painful, body cavity soul searching thing.) It's more an issue of Dean being so grossly unfair in his continued resentments and blaming despite Sam having made great strides to atone, having so much time pass, and Dean's having given lip service to forgiving Sam for these transgressions. If he had ranted about being left in purgatory because Sam didn't look or leaving Kevin twisting in the wind, I would have at least understood the relevance and seen the point to Dean's being so harsh. But to claim Sam was hiding his soullessness is absolutely and totally untrue, he was NOT hiding it. And to then further bring up what Sam did while soulless and condemn him with it is grossly unfair, especially knowing how horrible Sam felt about what he'd done when he found out about it in Unforgiven. Sam only lost his soul to begin with because of his sacrifice to save the world in season 5. His deeds with Samuel in season 6 were beyond his control and a byproduct of his sacrifice. It was pretty vicious of Dean to throw those events in Sam's face Penny or no Penny.

Furthermore, the Ruby and demon blood issues; Sam only threw himself into Hell to begin with to atone for those exact "crimes." So, even though Sam admitted his mistakes, apologized multiple times and then made the ultimate self-sacrifice to help fix the problems he caused, Dean is resentful? Sam's sacrifice mean's nothing to Dean STILL? If Dean had truly forgiven Sam for these issues, then the penny would not have worked to dredge up these old hurts, like with Garth. This means that down deep, Dean still feels these things to some extent. The spectre when it first saw Dean at the hospital even said to him "Oh, the spectre likes you" as though recognizing a good victim when he saw one. It could actually smell Dean's unresolved issues on him.

I agree with Leah and Kelly, the focus of Dean's rant seemed really off in this scene. If it had focused more on the issues that Dean had a right to feel some resentment about, like leaving him in purgatory, it would have come off better and made Dean seem like less of a grudge holder.
i looked at the scene a little differently. different eyes i guess. i thought dean's rant was off. he was going off about things sam didn't have control over and things that dean knows sam has paid for.

what i did notice was that everything dean was yelling at sam about dean has just recently done himself. not telling dean he was souless for a year, dean keeping purgatory a secret, sam in cahoots with ruby, dean is in cahoots with benny...dean mentioning the demon blood, he let a vampire inside his body....

i just felt like these are issues that dean may have resented at some point, but i believe he got over too. i think this had more to do with dean's current issues with himself. he did admit to sam that he didnt like lying to him.

jmo of course.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-03 11:49
That's an interesting take. I hadn't thought of that possible connection before. If that was what they were intending than it didn't really work though because this is the first time I've read it. So the majority of viewers missed it.
E
# E 2013-03-03 12:06
That's a very interesting take on the situation nappi, and if this is actually the case, I'd like to see more information come up about it (and soon too!). I guess my only lingering problem with the whole 'penny' situation is that it was made it pretty clear in the episode that those who committed acts of violence were acting on heightened impulses that were buried deep within but that those issues, however old, mild, petty or unimportant in the grand scheme of things, were in fact still there, and were still to some extent unresolved. Garth was unaffected by the penny because he has no issues with anyone. He may have, in his past somewhere, but he has truly forgiven and laid them to rest leaving nothing for the spectre to latch on to. Now, I think Dean has plenty of relevant and current things to feel miffed at Sam about, mostly the leaving him in purgatory issue; he has a right to be struggling with that, I think we all are. But the other stuff? Oy, I just wish that the writers' hadn't gone there...it was sooooo over the top and made it seem like Dean resents Sam for every wrong he's ever committed since childhood and that he can't let go of anything even though he has claimed that he has. If the writers have plans to loop these issues Dean brought up back onto things he feels guilty for himself (which would be pretty cool actually), I wish they would go ahead and do it. Because the "better brother" issue is almost as big of a white elephant as the "didn't look" issue and they both are in bad need of some kind of resolution.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-02-28 16:25
Quote:
Hi Jo1027,
On the comment Dean won't forgive Sam for being soulless, I don't recall that being the case? Sam had no control over being soulless, and Cas bringing Sam back, did not intend to bring him back sans soul.
That was one of the things he threw at Sam in an episode earlier this season.
You may be able to forgive Cas for all the shit he's pulled but I can't and I don't see how Dean can when he can't forgive Sam for anything he's done wrong.
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 16:45
Jojo1027,
Which episode? That does not sound familiar at all. And what is this "penny" episode everyone is talking about? Was I in a coma for part of this season?
You are honestly saying Dean BLAMES Sam for being Soulless after Hell? That is like Dean blaming Sam for being born a boy. And Dean has not forgiven Sam for coming back from Hell without a Soul? Is that what everyone is saying? I have asked this question several times in posts today, and no one has provided this specific episode or scene.
st50
# st50 2013-02-28 16:55
Geez, Nate. I don't mean to be rude, but we've mentioned the title in response to your questions several times today. And eilf even quoted the dialogue.
It's SOUTHERN COMFORT.
And yes, it's while Dean was under the influence of the spectre.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-02-28 09:38
Quote:
Caught only the end of the episode where Dean was praying to Cas. Why would he do that since Cas is the one who has continually hurt Sam? In season 4 he was part of the reason for the wedge between the brothers and he had a direct role in starting the apocalypse. He broke Sam's wall and caused him tremendous amounts of pain. So why would Dean think he would help Sam? He would be the last person I would have asked for help for Sam given his track record. Also, given how Dean holds grudges why has he seemed to have forgiven Cas for everything he's done but won't forgive his brother for being soulless which again was Cas's fault?
So Cas gets a hand-wave for everything he's done and Sam gets dumped on? Doesn't sit well for me.
yeah, Jo, I think I'm with you on the Dean praying to Cas issue, it didn't sit entirely well with me either given the history of Cas and what he did to Sam in the past. I've never understood why, of everyone who's hurt Sam, Cas seems to get forgiven by Dean. To be honest, it doesn't make much sense to me that Sam and Dean like Cas so much in the first place given the history they have with him. He's been just as able to harm them as to help them. I think it's just a case of the writers (or enough fans) like Cas so he stays in the show.

Also, I was thinking that Cas might not be able to hear Dean or be able to manifest in the MoL bunker because the building is warded against the supernatural and so might be Angel-proofed.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 11:21
Ciar, I've always thought that Sam is more willing to forgive Cas than Dean, and that's because Sam sees a lot of himself in Castiel.

In S7, Dean was not going to reach out to Cas or do anything w/him. Sam reached out to him b/c Sam identifies w/him. Cas had good intentions when he started his mission in S6. Heck, he even had good intentions in trying to rescue Sam from the Cage. Sam understands what's it like to make massive mistakes and mess up everything in spite of your good intentions. He did that in S4. I think that's why Sam was so quick to forgive Cas in S7. He's messed up before and knows how it is.

Now, I don't think Sam and Cas are good friends or even friends at all, but I do think Sam considers Cas an ally. If Cas were trouble, I think Sam would try to help him.

Sam does not bear any bad feelings toward Cas. He really never has.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-02-28 10:18
Quote:
Caught only the end of the episode where Dean was praying to Cas. Why would he do that since Cas is the one who has continually hurt Sam? In season 4 he was part of the reason for the wedge between the brothers and he had a direct role in starting the apocalypse. He broke Sam's wall and caused him tremendous amounts of pain. So why would Dean think he would help Sam? He would be the last person I would have asked for help for Sam given his track record. Also, given how Dean holds grudges why has he seemed to have forgiven Cas for everything he's done but won't forgive his brother for being soulless which again was Cas's fault?
So Cas gets a hand-wave for everything he's done and Sam gets dumped on? Doesn't sit well for me.
IMO it's a little more complicated; Sam had already forgiven Cas; remember he was the one that reached out and prayed to Cas after Cas went off the deep end at the beginning of S7. Given everything he's done, it natural that Sam is faster to forgive others. While Dean does hold grudges, I think that has softened somewhat as both the brothers have matured this year and maybe he's taking his cue from Sam on this i.e. if Sam could forgive him, maybe he should as well.

When it comes to Sam, Dean will do anything to help him. Remember when he went looking for help when Sam was in the psychiatric ward mid-S7? Even after he found out the healer was Cas, he set aside all of his anger and feelings of betrayal because it was to save Sam. Dean knows what Sam is in for with these trials and that he's not going to be able to help him with the physical consequences of God's little obstacle course so he turned to the only one he thinks can help.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 12:08
Quote:
When it comes to Sam, Dean will do anything to help him. Remember when he went looking for help when Sam was in the psychiatric ward mid-S7? Even after he found out the healer was Cas, he set aside all of his anger and feelings of betrayal because it was to save Sam. Dean knows what Sam is in for with these trials and that he's not going to be able to help him with the physical consequences of God's little obstacle course so he turned to the only one he thinks can help.
This is a good point! I also think Dean probably doesn't think Castiel is - at heart - a bad or evil being. So even though Cas has made huge mistakes and done awful things, Dean probably believes Cas has good intentions.
Ale
# Ale 2013-02-28 12:35
Quote:
This is a good point! I also think Dean probably doesn't think Castiel is - at heart - a bad or evil being. So even though Cas has made huge mistakes and done awful things, Dean probably believes Cas has good intentions.
lala2, that is exactly how I feel about Cas. :-)
Labotin
# Labotin 2013-02-28 13:51
' Quote:
Quote:
This is a good point! I also think Dean probably doesn't think Castiel is - at heart - a bad or evil being. So even though Cas has made huge mistakes and done awful things, Dean probably believes Cas has good intentions.
lala2, that is exactly how I feel about Cas. :-)
I think that nothing makes Dean more willing to trust anyone other than loyalty in battle. Cass proved himself during their time in purgatory and absolved himself by staying even when he had the chance of escaping...for this reason I think Dean continues to be loyal to Cass even though he is clearly being messed with by an unknown force...
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-02-28 14:11
Well that's nice, but since Dean still hasn't forgiven Sam, I'm not persuaded. Dean DOESN'T trust Sam to do the trials. He has made that clear. Dean still harbors resentment about Sam for his mistakes. But Dean is willing to let bygones be bygones with Castiel, because hey! Castiel only killed tens of thousands of people, murdered half his family and broke Sam's brain. There are ways to explain this, but they don't make Dean look very good.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-02-28 14:05
That was my reaction as well. Cas actively worked to get Sam to break the last seal in season 4. He continued to call Sam an abomination in season 5. He showed no interest as to what happened to Sam to change him after he got him from the cage in season 6 and went on to break his wall in season 6. He has expressed no remorse about hurting Sam since. Remorse that he killed the angels (as he should), yes. Remorse about what he specifically did to Sam, no. He took on Sam's insanity, but he only lived with it for a month or so at best.

I would not call on someone to help who had acted this way toward them. But Dean did and there that's that. This is the latest in the line of decisions made by the writers that lead me to believe they are taking a direction that I will not enjoy.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-02-28 16:34
My point of view exactly. As long as Cas doesn't apologize to Sam for the things he's done to him, he will never be forgiven by me. And I will never understand how Dean can forgive him for what he's done to Sam either.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-02-28 16:47
Castiel DID express deep remorse, and has been punishing himself as penance ever since.

And he did apologize specifically to Sam in "Born Again Identity." He expressed remorse both in word and deed.
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 16:53
Bamboo24--thank you for clearing that up. Actions speak louder than words, Cas has been there for the boys MANY times. Each character does not-so-nice things to each other, the brothers included. But each of those characters have redeemed their actions (only to many times repeat, kind of the nature of the beast when Heaven and Hell are involved).
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-02-28 16:51
Cas did apologize in BAI, it may not have been fully satisfying but he did apologize. I think lala2 is right, Sam can forgive him because he made similar mistakes. Dean DID have trouble forgiving him.
E
# E 2013-03-02 08:11
My issue with Cas's apology in BAI is that he said he was sorry at a time when Sam was so out of it that he did not even know that the sentiment of remorse was being expressed or could have appreciated that Cas felt bad. To me that apology was more an expression of Cas's remorse in the moment than an actual apology to Sam. I think that Cas IS truly remorseful for breaking Sam's wall, but aside from that one "I'm sorry" when Cas first sees the damage that he'd done, he has not apologized to Sam's face or asked Sam for forgiveness in a away that acknowledges TO SAM that Cas understands what he did was wrong.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-02 13:43
E, okay I definitely agree with that. The whole Sam/Cas relationship is problematic for me. They've known each other for several years now. Been through war together. Saved each others lives. Obviously care about one another. Sam worries about Cas. Cas worries about Sam. They've both made extremely similar mistakes for basically the same reason.

But they rarely interact. Everything goes through Dean. One of the few times Sam speaks directly to Cas in a meaningful way is when he is pleading with God!Cas. And Cas isn't even there. The only other real conversation that I can remember is when Sam looks so guilty for making CAS crazy in RiF.

Considering the parallels in their lives and complicated nature of their relationship, including the fact that Cas all but destroyed Sam and then sacrificed his sanity to save him, it is completely idiotic that the writers haven't mined this for dramatic gold.
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-02 13:53
It occurs to me that Cas knows what happened in Purgatory so if Sam ever got a clean shot at talking to him he could explain a lot of things that Dean refuses to.

For some reason the writers don't want this *shakes fist at sky, Whyyyyyyyyyyyy? ???* so therefore no Sam and Cas drama.

I don't understand this storyline....
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-02 14:37
eilf, that makes sense. Why didn't Sam try to talk to Cas about what happened in Purgatory? If Cas is going to be a regular, they REALLY need to step up the scenes between. It seems like such a waste of a good storyline.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-02 15:16
I'm really not sure if the writers want Cas to have a real relationship with Sam. The character came on as being attached to Dean. Certainly the vocal part of his fandom want him to remain attached only to Dean. None of the writers have shown any interest in making a connection between Sam and Cas. This season with the complete refusal to show or even talk about Sam's mental state when Dean disappeared, I have trouble believing they will ever have Cas and Sam interact because then they might have to write something for Sam to SAY that deals with his emotions.

My problems with Cas revolve around the fact that Cas's relationship with Dean has always served to cut Sam out of Dean's life. Since Sam has no friends of his own this means Sam has no one to talk to and nothing to do. It is too bad, because there is a lot that could and should have been dealt with between Sam and Cas. Since the writers brought up the whole Ruby/Apocalypse story, Cas could talk to Sam about his part in it. He could fill Dean in on the changed voicemail. Sam and Cas both made monumental mistakes trying to save the world. They could bond over that. They could talk about why Cas was willing to break Sam's mind as a tactic in a war, as opposed to simply transporting Dean and Sam so they couldn't interfere. There are many ways to have Cas and Sam relate to each other, but all of them have been avoided.

I have seen no indication that Carver has any investment in developing a Sam Cas relationship good or bad. But then neither did Kripke or Gamble. Kripke had Cas SAY he was Sam's friend to Lucifer in season five, but he never acted in a way that made me believe it. Cas has always revolved around Dean and many fans would be horrified if that ever changed.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-02 15:57
This is one of those cases where I most emphatically don't give a crap whether some fans would be horrified or upset. It makes no sense story wise and actually has a detrimental effect on the show. They HAVE to expand their relationship, especially if he is going to become a series regular. To me that is becoming non-negotiable.

Several people have said they just want Sam to get his own friend. But it makes so much more sense to mine the storylines that are already there, rather than add random characters who will likely only see once or twice a season. That won't produce the effects I want. Which is first and foremost to get more inside Sam's head on a much more regularly basis.

I choose to believe that the lack of developmental of Castiel/Sam relationship is more to do with them intending for him to leave the show so it would have been unnecessary. But since his role is to expand, his relationship with Sam show expand as well.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-02 16:23
I agree that if Cas's role is being expanded he should interact more with Sam. Obviously, I have several scenarios that I think need to be explored.

I do wish Sam had a friend of his own, because even if they build on the relationship between Sam and Cas, I think Dean will always be the primary friend of Cas. Sam needs someone who is willing to listen to his POV without having to consider Dean's. Bobby admitted liking Dean better and distrusted Sam several times throughout the series. Garth said both of them weren't listening, but really only talked to Dean about the strains between Dean and Sam. Ellen came back to give Dean encouragement and had no interest in or thought for Sam, which was kind of true when she was alive as well. Sheriff Jody is the only person I can think of since season one who is fully human and likes Sam a little more than Dean. Dean gets to have Cas and Benny as BFFs and Sam only has Dean, which means when he has issues with Dean he either ends up hurting Dean's feelings by talking about them or just shoves them down and they don't get dealt with. I want someone who is wholly and completely on Sam's side and who won't be written off or poorly written like Amelia.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-02 17:01
I would love to see more Jody Mills. I loved the report that she had with Sam(I really do think it is the best relationship for Sam outside of Dean and Bobby-and even the Bobby one had problems). And would loved to see Sam interacting with others more in general. BUT I think just bringing in a new person just wouldn't help that much. Because Cas has been around for 4 seasons. He is so beloved that that it has kept him from dying several times now. He has lots of rich on-screen back story with both Sam and Dean.

But with a new person you would have to develop all that over time. Better writing would've definitely helped the Amelia story, but there is no way to create the kind of history that the Cas character has within a few episodes.

So my first preference would be to develop the Sam/Cas relationship while also expanding his relationship with characters like Jody, Charlie and Garth.

Arad, I think Meg is a great character but I would cringe at a friendship with either of the boys. She killed Jo and Ellen! And active tried to kill their dad. I don't think even Sam has that much forgiveness in his heart. I loved the villain's redemption on other show (and even this one if you consider Cas a villain) but I don't think that would work with Meg. She is a demon. Regardless of her motives she is at heart evil. So therefore I don't think a true redemption is possible.
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-02 17:09
Yes! Bring Jody back!

I always felt that Ellen was the person in the entire series that had more time for Sam than Dean (though she was fond of both of them) she is pretty much the only person who has ever said to Sam 'it's not your fault'.
Arad
# Arad 2013-03-02 16:27
I would love to see Sam's relationship with Cas expanded. I'd love to see more of Sam's interior life full stop. ;-)

What about more Meg? That would be good imho - she is quite a cool character and would counterbalance Cas's presence in the boys' lives quite nicely.
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-02 16:47
The problem with Meg is she has done some really really bad stuff in the past. More so than Crowley even, because Crowley hasn't really made it personal. Meg has. She killed several hunters that the Winchesters were friends with. She took over Sam and tried to get Dean to kill him as well as coming close to killing Jo.

She tried to kill all three of the Winchesters with the shadow demons. She tried to keep Sam from rescuing Dean in Scarecrow. She was still not even remotely forgiven in Caged Heat since Sam (I think) said he was going to kill her if she hadn't vanished at just the right moment.

The guys have ended up working with her because they needed her (though leaving her to look after Castiel was a ... strange ... decision) and I am not sure that working with them against the Leviathans really makes up for all the bad stuff. In fact it is hypocritical on all sides if the stuff she has done gets swept under the carpet when the guys can't forgive each other for anything (the 'Lucky Charms Rule' as Percysowner has mentioned).

TLDR: I would like Sam to have a friend who isn't a female demon :D
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-02 17:02
Percy, I agree! If Sam and Castiel were meant to have a relationship or even a friendship, it would have been developed by now. Cas has been on the show for 4 years, and he and Sam still have no "real" relationship.

Sam and Cas will never be friends b/c the writers aren't interested in making them friends.
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-02 17:18
Cas did some bad things to Sam but he has in the past believed they were friends. There is potential for their friendship to be expanded:

The Man Who Would Be King:

CASTIEL I'm still me. I'm still your friend. Sam...I'm the one who raised you from Perdition.


The song remains the same:

CASTIEL
The answer's still no. Because Sam is my friend.

ANNA
You've changed.

CASTIEL
Maybe too late, but I have.

CASTIEL turns back to ANNA.

CASTIEL
Anna, we've been through much together, but you come near Sam Winchester and I'll kill you.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-02 17:31
I think so too. Just because it hasn't been taken advantage of up to now, doesn't mean they can't in the future.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-02 17:43
The problem for me Eilf is I never saw Sam and Castiel's relationship progress to a friendship. Presently, I wouldn't characterize their relationship as a "friendship." They are more like business associates. That's why Cas's declaration to Anna that Sam was his friend was shocking to me and many others.

Over on Supernatural.tv , there was a lot of discussion about that particular line of dialogue. Most of us wanted to know when that occurred. I hadn't seen their relationship progress to that level.

I find that frequently the writers tell instead of show when it comes to Sam. Instead of having Castiel randomly call Sam his friend when there have been no scenes reflecting a change in their relationship, why not show them growing closer or bonding. Show them having a conversation or identifying w/each other. Have Castiel admit his part in the Apocalypse to Sam. Write scenes showing them becoming friendly. Don't have Cas just call Sam his friend in some random episode.

I felt the saw way about Sam's relationship w/Bobby. They frequently had Bobby say Sam and Dean were like his sons, but Sam and Bobby rarely had significant scenes together that had nothing to do w/Dean. I never saw a special relationship btw Sam and Bobby like Bobby and Dean. Bobby even said he liked Dean better than Sam. He also didn't really seem to bother w/Sam unless he had to. All of that was actually fine to me. Sam and Dean don't have to have the exact same friends or the exact same relationships w/everyone. It just bugged me that Bobby kept saying he loved Sam like a son but I saw no evidence that he really felt that way. Sam and Bobby rarely interacted. I was actually shocked they allowed Sam to grieve over Bobby.

Anyway, my main point is the show has yet, IMO, to develop a true friendship btw Sam and Castiel.
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-02 17:52
Hi Lala, yes I agree that it hasn't been developed, that is what I really want to see, but the earlier argument seemed to be that there was no foundation on which to build a friendship and I think there is.

I loved that line where Castiel picked Sam's side and I feel that it is not completely out of left field (and I don't think that anything would change my mind on this) BUT if it has at some time been a bone of contention of Amy level proportions in the fandom then consider me rapidly backing away from saying anything further on the subject :D
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-02 18:31
Well, I agree with you elif :-). But I really can see lala2 and percy's opinions as well.

lala2, I always wanted more with the Bobby/Sam relationship too. But I did feel like they had deep one, even if it wasn't as close as Bobby and Dean. It's just that a lot of Bobby's heartfelt Sam moments were actually with Dean. He made Dean give another chance, even after everything he had done. And he never gave up on him. He even told Sam that at the hospital in 5X1. Dean had basically given up on him at that point. Bobby proved it by encouraging Sam to get back in the game in Free to Be You And Me. And he talked about how heroic Sam was in 2M2M.

And sometimes it was just a look or a line like it PoNR, I teared up when Sam comes up from the basement after talking to Dean and Bobby asked how Dean is doing. And Sam shakes his head. And there was total love and concern when Bobby lowers his voice and asks "How are YOU doing?" Sam looked like he was about to lose it. And I did totally bust out crying when he's giving Sam his good-bye speech and hug in SS.

I would've like further development after Bobby's hesitancy in LaV, but it's not that unrealistic that it took a little bit but eventually he moved past the image of Sam trying to kill him. I did think since they brought it up that they should resolve it but it wasn't that big a deal to me.

I thought they had several moments in S7. Would I have like more? Sure. But I can't get on board with the idea that they didn't have a close relationship.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-02 19:10
My problem is that all Cas ever gave was lip service to a friendship with Sam. I admitted he SAID he was Sam's friend, but I never saw actions that made me feel he was a friend. Saying I'm still your friend and then breaking the only thing keeping you sane a short time later doesn't cut it for me.

I found it interesting that in the conversation with Anna, Cas was serving Dean's wishes, not Sam's. Sam only asked if scattering his molecules would work to keep Lucifer away. Cas never asked Sam what HE wanted when Anna came back. Neither did Dean. Cas was doing what he knew Dean wanted and what Sam wanted was inconsequential . Again, I see him as Dean's friend, not Sam's.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-02 14:55
Sam and Castiel are allies but not friends. I do think Sam cares about Castiel's general welfare but I don't think I can say the same for Castiel. Any caring Cas has for Sam is usually because of Dean.

Yes, I think Cas was genuinely sorry for what he did to Sam in TBAI but I don't know if Cas really cares if Sam lives or dies. If he does care, it's probably because of how Sam's death would impact Dean.

And I say that because Cas didn't think anything of dropping Sam's Wall. He didn't really care what it would do to Sam or if Sam would even survive. He just did it to distract Dean. It was pretty cold.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-02 15:12
lala2, I can see how that argument can be made, but I think they do see each other as friends. Not besties :-) but friends. But even if they don't currently, I really think they need to expand their relationship. It is completely ridiculous that they have this extremely complex relationship, but let it all take place with Dean as an intermediary. I really don't see why.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-02 15:29
Hmm . . . I don't think they see themselves as friends (Jared even mentions in an article that Sam and Cas aren't friends), but as you said, the writers can definitely expand the relationship.

If Misha is going to be a regular, and if Castiel is going to be more heavily featured in episodes, then they have no choice, IMO, but to actually develop the Sam/Castiel "relationship." It can't always be just Dean and Cas having moments while Sam stands silently in the background. Well . . . I guess it could, but I'm not sure how interesting that will be.
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-02 15:40
I think the possibilities here are rich with potential and I, for one, would love to see it explored.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-02-28 17:53
Quote:
Caught only the end of the episode where Dean was praying to Cas. Why would he do that since Cas is the one who has continually hurt Sam? In season 4 he was part of the reason for the wedge between the brothers and he had a direct role in starting the apocalypse. He broke Sam's wall and caused him tremendous amounts of pain. So why would Dean think he would help Sam? He would be the last person I would have asked for help for Sam given his track record. Also, given how Dean holds grudges why has he seemed to have forgiven Cas for everything he's done but won't forgive his brother for being soulless which again was Cas's fault?
So Cas gets a hand-wave for everything he's done and Sam gets dumped on? Doesn't sit well for me.
i always believed dean to be angry with God, ever since his mother died. i know he has had mixed feelings concerning cas, but i still get the feeling dean trusts in cas more than God.

jmo of course.
Gerry
# Gerry 2013-02-28 09:08
For me, there is no way to suspend disbelief for this episode. It was actually worse than last week's because it damaged the over all arc rather than just being one-off silly.

I cannot believe the boys think the way to handle their MOL legacy is to bring cases of the week there. The MOL managed to keep their secret even from hunters, but Dean brags about the "secret" society to a civilian. If they are so casual about the bunker, why is Kevin not there, being looked after properly and not starving himself? Ridiculous. And I won't be able to take it seriously when no doubt the very next week secrecy will be all important again. I think it's terrible writing when you have to accept new conditions to the story week by week, rather than building on the story you have established.

The Greek god story was moderately well told in that they got the broad details right, but the bar wasn't set very high with "Hammer of the Gods." In this one, making a punishment accidentally hereditory is a real stretch, but I can roll with it to make the parallel to the Winchesters. And Artemis is a virgin goddess, with some stories strongly suggesting she is gay. Sam was actually pretty off the mark with his guess.

But most of all, what was their plan in calling Zeus? How was that going to end well? Why wasn't it shared with the girlfriend? Why would they walk away and leave her behind, with Zeus talking to her? Why didn't they care that Artemis was still hunting Prometheus?

The brother moments didn't even sit that well. Sam's hope lasts all of one episode? Why, because he doesn't know all about sacrifice or the price that may be paid? He was just naive when he was arguing with Dean about hope? Guess that lovely dynamic in "Trial and Error" between the boys was just throw away rather than moving the boys forward.

And yes, Jensen Ackles rocked the prayer. He always elevates his material and he nails this kind of scene. BUT why is he calling on Cas to look after Sam when last we checked, he and Sam warded a room against Cas because they suspect he's being controlled and may have murdered Samandriel? That's not a serious concern when revealing Sam's vulnerability and all the secrets that give the boys an edge? Dean has thought there was something off about Cas since the angel returned from Purgatory, so why would he risk Sam's safety even further?

I feel like any semblance of story integrity has gone out the window. So disappointing.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-02-28 09:44
Gerry, I too felt that Artemis was not portrayed correctly either. She's always been a goddess associated with protecting women and with the punishment of men. I always got the feeling she was more likely to be gay than straight from the Greek mythology I read when I was younger. (I was a geeky child/teenager and my favourite book was Bulfinches' Mythology).

I liked the idea that she could be considered the goddess of the Sam and Dean type of Hunters - that was a nice leap of logic from Sam - but I didn't buy the writer's idea that Artemis has had the secret hots for Prometheus. But then again, SPN writers tend to interpret existing myths and legends to suit themselves or the plot requirements and I don't complain every time they do it ;-)

P.S. I also agree with your comments regarding this week's inconsistent attitude and behaviour towards Cas from Dean, for exactly the reasons you specified. It didn't make sense to me and I think this season is suffering from more of that inconsistency than past seasons have. I wonder why? Are the writers not communicating with each other sufficiently to ensure consistency across their plots?!?
Gerry
# Gerry 2013-02-28 10:10
" I also agree with your comments regarding this week's inconsistent attitude and behaviour towards Cas from Dean, for exactly the reasons you specified. It didn't make sense to me and I think this season is suffering from more of that inconsistency than past seasons have. I wonder why? Are the writers not communicating with each other sufficiently to ensure consistency across their plots?!?"

Ciar, I think this is my biggest disappointment with Jeremy Carver as showrunner. He seems to take canon very lightly, even canon he himself established (John's father). I've never had to decide to ignore past story in order to accept current story so often and that includes season seven, which had a lot of weaknesses. Characterizatio n flip flops, story points are dropped even when they are obviously relevant--whose steering the ship?

I hate that such a lovely moment as Dean praying for his brother's safety was undercut by Dean ignoring his suspicions about Cas being controlled and therefore not a safe person to pray to. Not Jensen Ackles fault--he nailed the emotions. But he can't fight the writing.
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 10:45
ciar and Gerry,
I don't see Dean's view of Cas as inconsistent. Dean was not going to leave Purgatory without Cas. Dean knows Cas has been working to rectify his past mistakes. Dean and Sam DO NOT KNOW Cas is being controlled. They know something is up with Cas (when it something NOT up with Cas?). They have no idea about Naomi. For all Dean knows Cas is off still working to rectify is past mistakes. Remember other than Purgatory, Cas has not been arond the boys on a regular basis. Cas is a friend to Dean, his best other than Sam. It is natural (and very mature) for Dean to need to talk to his friend. This friend also happens to be an Angel and can hear Dean's prayer. Dean needs his friend. There could be a separate spin-off about Dean ignoring his suspicions about many characters. Even when there is more going on than Dean sees, he will always be loyal to and trust Cas. I believe Cas earned the trust back in his actions post-Crowley partnership. And I believe Dean understands Cas was working with Crowley because at that time Cas felt he had no other choice. He was not lying to Dean, just doing what he felt he had to.
Gerry
# Gerry 2013-02-28 11:10
Nate, Torn and Frayed specifically showed Sam and Dean warding the cabin against Cas so they could discuss their suspicions about Samandriel's death, which they think suggest Cas is being controlled. They don't know the specifics, but they don't trust what happened with heaven's most adorable angel or how Cas got out of Purgatory.

And given that, it's not natural and mature for Dean to ask Cas to help Sam. Cas said he was going to help Samandriel and he killed him in suspicious circumstances. Dean is no stranger to having to suspect people's motivations even when he cares for them--especiall y Cas. He's suspecting Cas is being controlled right now, not deliberately betraying them, but either way, he's not safe.
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 11:27
Gerry,
First, "heaven's most adorable angel " has be laughing out loud! :)
I am stealing part of a review from Huff Post for "Remember The Titans." The reviewer put it better than I can. I agree with the below. And again, I see Dean talking to Cas as much about Dean reaching out to a friend to talk, maybe more than asking for Cas to help. If Dean thinks something is up with Cas, he still is on a surface level needing to talk to his friend about his Sam concerns.
".....the closing minutes, when Dean shut himself in his room to pray to Castiel for his help in protecting Sam. That scene spoke volumes about how well Dean knows his little brother, how deeply he cares about Sam's well-being, and his growing emotional maturity as a character, allowing himself to be vulnerable and open up to his friend."
Gerry
# Gerry 2013-02-28 11:57
Nate, I don't disagree about how much Dean cares for Sam or that he picked up on Sam's distress--which doesn't surprise me at all. But choosing now to open up and be vulnerable to Cas? That only makes sense if you ignore his suspicions about Cas he's voiced since Cas returned and specifically in Torn and Frayed. He's worried Cas murdered the angel he set out to protect.

I really hate writing that shifts plot and character from week to week so remembering past episodes is pointless. Supernatural has always seemed to me to be flagship for a show where canon matters. They've slipped up from time to time, but not on the important things.

This year, no one on staff except Ben Edlund seems much concerned with canon and the writing has really slipped. At this point, I'd never try to convince a non-watcher that Supernatural is a well written show with fantastic characterizatio n between the brothers that rings true to life. I have to constantly pretend past events haven't happened to get through episodes. It's like this whole season is as tonally deaf and inconsistent as Time for a Wedding was last year.
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 12:08
Hi Gerry!
I like your points, but I view the events differently. I don't see the shifts (other than "Friend with Benifits" that Alice pointed out in that review). For me I can relate the to the characters. The boys have a complicated life, no question. Dean had just had a conversation where Sam was down, and Dean really needed someone to talk to. Take away the suspicions Dean has of Cas. Cas is Dean's best friend other than Sam, and Dean needed to chat with his best friend, to share his concerns. Cas has a complicated existence too, drama left and right. Dean knows all of that, but in that moment in his new room, Dean needed his best friend. Dean is human, and kudos to him for wanting to share some emotion. Too bad his BFF is an Angel with all kinds of drama! On a pure friendship level, it worked for me, and Jensen.....home run, touchdown, goal.
I feel there is no comparison in regards to overall quality in this season and the last 2. (As I type this Season 6 is starting on TNT!). I have faith in Carver & Co. and I hope you continue to enjoy the show.
Gerry
# Gerry 2013-02-28 12:32
Hi Nate. Having to take away Dean's suspicions about Cas to make the scene make sense is in a nutshell my concerns about the writing. Jensen was great--it was the connection to the over all arc that wasn't.

I've had to forget the set up in Swan Song and season six to believe Dean's lack of forgiveness of Sam over Ruby and Soulless Sam in Southern Comfort. I've had to forget Sam following up his threat against Benny in Southern Comfort with siccing Martin on Benny to feel comfortable with Dean being good with Sam, and on top of that, I have to forget Sam let Kate go to accept his 180 degree turn on Benny. And that's not even getting into having to accept Sam would not look for his brother when he had no answers on what happened to him.

Anyway. Obviously I'm having issues with the show. I have no idea whether I'll be able to keep watching it next year. I'll certainly give it this season to see if Carver ties everything up in a way that feels organic and real. But organic and real is not the way I'd describe the progression of this season.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-02-28 11:11
Quote:
" I also agree with your comments regarding this week's inconsistent attitude and behaviour towards Cas from Dean, for exactly the reasons you specified. It didn't make sense to me and I think this season is suffering from more of that inconsistency than past seasons have. I wonder why? Are the writers not communicating with each other sufficiently to ensure consistency across their plots?!?"

Ciar, I think this is my biggest disappointment with Jeremy Carver as showrunner. He seems to take canon very lightly, even canon he himself established (John's father). I've never had to decide to ignore past story in order to accept current story so often and that includes season seven, which had a lot of weaknesses. Characterization flip flops, story points are dropped even when they are obviously relevant--whose steering the ship?

I hate that such a lovely moment as Dean praying for his brother's safety was undercut by Dean ignoring his suspicions about Cas being controlled and therefore not a safe person to pray to. Not Jensen Ackles fault--he nailed the emotions. But he can't fight the writing.
Gerry, I feel as though the writers are playing faster and looser with backstory and canon much more often this year than they’ve done in the past and I also feel as though the characters of Sam and Dean are less consistent with themselves between episodes this year too.

I’m used to different writers having different takes on the brothers, and the writing reflecting this, but this year it feels to me like Dean is fluctuating between states really quickly and Sam is not far behind him. I think a showrunner who had more interest in maintaining consistent canon could be a good thing for SPN. I’m not saying Kripke and Gamble got it perfect all the time but I just feel like I’m noticing this stuff a lot more this year since Carver took over. I know that SPN is a long-running series and that most viewers won't really mind the writers playing around with canon too much, but I like my show creators to be fastidious as much as possible about maintaining integrity of what they've created.



Quote:
ciar and Gerry,
I don't see Dean's view of Cas as inconsistent. Dean was not going to leave Purgatory without Cas. Dean knows Cas has been working to rectify his past mistakes. Dean and Sam DO NOT KNOW Cas is being controlled. They know something is up with Cas (when it something NOT up with Cas?). They have no idea about Naomi. For all Dean knows Cas is off still working to rectify is past mistakes. Remember other than Purgatory, Cas has not been arond the boys on a regular basis. Cas is a friend to Dean, his best other than Sam. It is natural (and very mature) for Dean to need to talk to his friend. This friend also happens to be an Angel and can hear Dean's prayer. Dean needs his friend. There could be a separate spin-off about Dean ignoring his suspicions about many characters. Even when there is more going on than Dean sees, he will always be loyal to and trust Cas. I believe Cas earned the trust back in his actions post-Crowley partnership. And I believe Dean understands Cas was working with Crowley because at that time Cas felt he had no other choice. He was not lying to Dean, just doing what he felt he had to.
Nate, my point was not that Dean and Sam should notice something’s up with Cas (although I do agree with Gerry’s point that in an earlier S8 ep they did notice something was up with Cas and they warded against him hearing them to discuss it).

My point is that I’ve never understood why the character of Cas is so easily forgiven by the Winchesters other than for the simple reason that the writers (or fan interest) has made it so. Cas is not really a character that I particularly like, I’ve grown to tolerate him more than anything, but based on the interactions he’s had with Sam and Dean over the years I’m still not convinced that he’s someone they should forgive so easily.

My other point is that Dean praying to Cas seems strange to me given that Dean knows Cas’ behaviour is off and he knows that Cas is limited in what he can (and has been able) to do to help Sam. I loved the scene of Dean worrying about his little brother but, to me, it felt like Cas was being shoehorned into that scene. I know Dean isn’t a big fan of God so I can see why he wouldn’t necessarily pray for God’s help for Sam but, personally, I’m not convinced that Dean would pray for Cas’ help for Sam.
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 11:36
Hi ciar,
I was wrong--Sam and Dean think something is up with Cas, maybe even being controlled. I blanked on that, but remember the scene now. IMO the reason Cas is forgiven is he has put himself on the line for the brothers many times. Cas has grown as a "person" being with the boys. He understands free will, something that is "like teaching poetry to fish." There have been comments throughout the series how the Winchesters are Cas's favorite humans. And IMO Cas felt bad with his actions in Season 6, and has been trying to make up for them since. They have been to heck and back with Cas, so he is viewed as a friend and ally.
As far as the last scene, I think that was more about Dean needing to talk to a friend about his Sam fears. I think it was more that than actually wanting Cas to protect Sam. Dean knows something is off with Cas, but he misses his friend and needs someone to talk to.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-02-28 14:16
I'm also amazed at how easily Cas has been forgiven. Part of that is because I don't think he ever revealed how much damage he did during season four. But even so, this blanket forgiveness of Cas, coupled with showing the audience that whatever Cas does against the brothers is beyond his control, so we should pity him bothers me. Sam took responsibility for what Soulless!Sam did and the audience still gets hammered over the head with just how bad Sam was. Cas just skates on by.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 14:25
Ciar, Sam forgives Castiel because he identifes w/him.

Sam has messed up before despite nobel intentions, and his actions had devastating consequences. All Castiel wanted to do was prevent war or another apocalypse. That is not an evil or bad goal. The problem is he went "darkside" to achieve his goal. Sam understands that completely. He's done the same before.

Now, Dean was less willing to forgive Castiel, but in 7.01, Castiel did express a sincere apology to Dean for what he had done to Sam. I don't believe he was lying or manipulating Dean. He was genuinely sorry and wanted to fix his mistakes. He messed up. Dean saw that. I never cared for it b/c it deprived Sam of his only interesting story (but not really in the way Sera & Co. were telling it), but Cas did take on Sam's hallucinations. He also fought w/Dean in Purgatory. For all those reasons, Dean has forgiven Sam.

JMO. Miles vary as they say.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-02-28 22:19
Ciar, Sam forgives Castiel because he identifes w/him.


Now, Dean was less willing to forgive Castiel, but in 7.01, Castiel did express a sincere apology to Dean for what he had done to Sam. quote]

This didn't work for me because he didn't apologize to Sam. What good did it do to apologize to Dean for what he did to Sam? It did nothing for me but make me angrier.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-01 13:49
Oh, I agree. I would have preferred to see Castiel apologize directly to Sam in 7.01. He did apologize to Sam (I think) in TBAI, but it's not like Sam could understand what he said or anything.

I think we're supposed to see Castiel's decision to take on Sam's hallucinations as his redemption for breaking Sam's Wall. I'm not sure if that worked for you. It was all right to me. I was mostly disappointed that Sam's story had come to an abrupt end after it had been stalled for 15 episodes. I guess Cas taking on Sam's hallucinations would have meant more, to me, if Sam's story had been better.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-03-01 20:25
Quote:
Oh, I agree. I would have preferred to see Castiel apologize directly to Sam in 7.01. He did apologize to Sam (I think) in TBAI, but it's not like Sam could understand what he said or anything.

I think we're supposed to see Castiel's decision to take on Sam's hallucinations as his redemption for breaking Sam's Wall. I'm not sure if that worked for you. It was all right to me. I was mostly disappointed that Sam's story had come to an abrupt end after it had been stalled for 15 episodes. I guess Cas taking on Sam's hallucinations would have meant more, to me, if Sam's story had been better.
No, it didn't work for me because Sam endured 180 years in the Cage and Cas had a month of suffering. Doesn't even come close for me. He owed Sam more than that IMO. And it wasn't just the wall breaking that he did to Sam.
He's also never owned up to his part in starting the apocolypse and still blames Dean and Sam solely for that.
These things bother me and I'm not sure anything will change that for me.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-02 14:41
I understand.

I don't hate Castiel so it is probably easier for me to move on with the story. Miles vary. I hate that he never owned up to his part in the Apocalypse and that he dropped Sam's wall but I do believe he was genuinely sorry for doing that. I don't think he was lying about that. The Show doesn't seem interested in addressing any of this on a deeper level though.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-02-28 22:42
I can come up with reasons why Dean has forgiven Cas, but since the writers are crystal clear that Dean has not really forgiven Sam for, well anything up to and including the damned Lucky Charms, I find his forgiveness of Cas to be problematic.

Sam does forgive Cas because he understands. However, one apology while Sam was unable to hear it does not cut it for me. Cas has never shown much concern for Sam and apologizing in BAI while Sam was incapacitated seems more like a show for Dean than any real regret for hurting SAM. Yes, he made amends by taking Sam's insanity, and yes he didn't know how much or how little he would suffer, but frankly he suffered a lot less time than Sam did. He was an angel after all, so why wouldn't he heal faster?

Ultimately, my issues with Cas and responsibility is that he has never owned up most of his bad actions. He never admitted letting Sam out of the panic room. He never admitted he killed Balthazar, his best friend and second in command in the fight against Raphael. He pinned all of his bad actions on Balthazar and has never taken responsibility for them. He ran around the world, openly killing people, so he can't deny that. The same thing applies to killing half the angels in heaven. But on the whole Cas wreaks destruction then plays "who me?". I would say it is far to late to deal with any of these issues, but damn it Dean brought up Ruby and all of Sam's mistakes, so Cas should be called on his stuff as well.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-03-01 20:27
Quote:
I can come up with reasons why Dean has forgiven Cas, but since the writers are crystal clear that Dean has not really forgiven Sam for, well anything up to and including the damned Lucky Charms, I find his forgiveness of Cas to be problematic.

Sam does forgive Cas because he understands. However, one apology while Sam was unable to hear it does not cut it for me. Cas has never shown much concern for Sam and apologizing in BAI while Sam was incapacitated seems more like a show for Dean than any real regret for hurting SAM. Yes, he made amends by taking Sam's insanity, and yes he didn't know how much or how little he would suffer, but frankly he suffered a lot less time than Sam did. He was an angel after all, so why wouldn't he heal faster?

Ultimately, my issues with Cas and responsibility is that he has never owned up most of his bad actions. He never admitted letting Sam out of the panic room. He never admitted he killed Balthazar, his best friend and second in command in the fight against Raphael. He pinned all of his bad actions on Balthazar and has never taken responsibility for them. He ran around the world, openly killing people, so he can't deny that. The same thing applies to killing half the angels in heaven. But on the whole Cas wreaks destruction then plays "who me?". I would say it is far to late to deal with any of these issues, but damn it Dean brought up Ruby and all of Sam's mistakes, so Cas should be called on his stuff as well.
YES! THIS!
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-02-28 10:19
Quote:
The brother moments didn't even sit that well. Sam's hope lasts all of one episode? Why, because he doesn't know all about sacrifice or the price that may be paid? He was just naive when he was arguing with Dean about hope? Guess that lovely dynamic in "Trial and Error" between the boys was just throw away rather than moving the boys forward.
I took this entirely differently. Sam's hope last episode came before the spell, remember, before he was afflicted by that light inside his hand/arm. The moment he experienced that pain, you could tell he was shaken up by it. Then he began coughing up blood. And Sam is faced with a catch-22: continue on and save the world, or stop and save himself. You can tell he's struggling with it - keeps having to remind himself that it's "worth it." And you can also tell he's trying to prepare Dean, in his own way, by gently suggesting - "hey, maybe I was naive to think I could make it through these trials unscathed." That was a confession if there ever was one. Like a neon sign screaming "I'm Not Okay." At that point Dean knew for certain that Sam was being affected, was hurting, but he was trying to not freak out about it - trying to let Sam do this on his own. But that doesn't mean he stopped worrying. I think Dean needed an anchor - needed to believe there was something or someone stronger than himself who could help look after Sam. And who does he have but Cas?

I think Dean has the mindset that even if Cas is going through something they don't know about, him being around is better than his absence. I think Dean really just wanted to feel less alone and impotent in his attempts to protect his brother. Manipulated or not, with Bobby dead, who knows or cares from them as well as Castiel?

But I don't think his prayer got anywhere - the bunker is completely impenetrable from all Supernatural forces, angels included. So I doubt the prayer actually got to Cas. I think the purpose of that scene was to reveal to us Dean's state of mind - how hard it is for him to let Sam go forward with the trials, knowing it could kill him.
Gerry
# Gerry 2013-02-28 10:44
Bamboo, I have a real problem with it being news to Sam the trials may kill him and that he's shaken up by the possibility he may need to save himself. He's the guy who threw himself into the pit to save the world. As Dean said, they more than anyone know the cost of saving the world.

Sam's retort that he can see hope anyway and that he can teach Dean to hope was very powerful and moving--when he seemed to have a basis for feeling that. If it was just that he didn't think there would be any pain or suffering, then he was naive and Dean was right he should be doing the trials. He may be fatalistic, but at least he's realistic. I think all the power of Sam's choice is being rapidly sucked out of the show. One episode to lose hope? Did he think it would be easy?

And if Dean is suspicious Cas killed Samandriel because he's being controlled, enough to have warded Rufus's to even discuss how off Cas seems, then how does exposing Sam's vulnerability to whoever may be controlling Cas feel like he's getting support? Samandriel's murder is a pretty big deal considering Cas's mission was to save him. That seems to have vanished from Dean's consciousness. The writing just flip flops from week to week, ignoring story set up.

The bunker doesn't seem particularly impenetrable at this point. Artemis got in. And Sam in Everybody Hate Hitler seemed to think Cas could reach him. Another story point that's pretty malleable from week to week.
Ale
# Ale 2013-02-28 11:45
Quote:
The bunker doesn't seem particularly impenetrable at this point. Artemis got in.
She did? Weren't they in a hotel?
st50
# st50 2013-02-28 13:22
I don't think Artemis was ever in the bunker.
Have to rewatch, but I think they went there after Artemis found them.
eilf
# eilf 2013-02-28 13:43
I think it was just a random warehouse or something that they could fight in. It never occurred to me that they were still at the bunker TBH

(though it could have been the building over the bunker perhaps?)
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 14:26
She never entered the bunker. She was in their hotel room at one point and whatever warehouse/build ing they were in at the end of the episode.
E
# E 2013-03-02 09:23
Maybe Artemis wasn't there, but Prometheus definitely was and so was his supernaturally cursed son.
st50
# st50 2013-02-28 11:54
Quote:
Bamboo, I have a real problem with it being news to Sam the trials may kill him and that he's shaken up by the possibility he may need to save himself. .
I didn't take it that way, Gerry.
I think Sam is concerned that he's not going to survive to complete the trials. He's concerned about the physical toll it's already taking, and worried he won't be able to finish. And while he wants to live (and take Dean with him), I don't believe he's afraid of it.
Gerry
# Gerry 2013-02-28 12:19
st50, that makes more sense than Sam actually being shaken by the idea of the trials being difficult. But it should take more than one episode of Sam hiding blood from Dean for him to lose his hope, or his hope wasn't based on much. I'd like to think Sam had faith in free will trumping fate again, and it would be nice to get some good story set up for him to lose that faith--as in more than one episode.
st50
# st50 2013-02-28 12:31
Oh I agree, Gerry.
But this season is alternating between moving at lightening speeds and a turtle pace. I'm getting whiplash! (Unfortunately, exploration of Sam and Dean's motivations is the lightening part.)
I also like to think that, if fear is involved, Sam would be remembering (even if Season 8 isn't) that the only time the Supernatural world hurt him while he wasn't actually on a hunt was Season 7 and Lucifer. That kind of pain and torment has got to leave a mark. ;-) Now he's coughing up blood weeks after completing the first trial.... so it's not really about the actions he's taking now. It's the long term, lingering effects.
If Sam were actually remembering - and fearing - that kind of pain, I think it would be more understandable for the viewer. Unfortunately, there's yet been little to no recognition of what happened to Sam in season 7.....

ETA: I don't put demon blood in the same catagory here. It was a supernatural influence force upon him by yellow-eyes, but Sam had some element of control over the addiction part. He simply chose the wrong thing for the right reasons, and then had to pay for his mistakes. This time, he doesn't seem to have any control.
Gerry
# Gerry 2013-02-28 12:48
st50, I'm just so tired of whiplash writing about core elements of the series. There are definitely things the writers can do with Sam's hope, but this episode didn't do it for me. I'd be very open to Sam struggling with hell damage, tying into past seasons, especially done well rather than at lightning speed or abruptly started and stopped. I'd also love some plot consistency so I don't have to raise my eyebrows at a lovely scene Jensen just nailed.
st50
# st50 2013-02-28 13:13
Quote:
....especially done well rather than at lightning speed or abruptly started and stopped.
That's what the end of season 7 and the entirety of season 8 have been, though.. I've seen so many great (and not great) plot points that look like they might be leading some where, only to vanish as if they'd never been. Starting with the wall damage and on to Purgatory and Benny/ Amelia and not looking...... So yes, I agree with being tired of it.

Quote:

a lovely scene Jensen just nailed.
He really did nail it, though, didn't he. :-) I'm just going to admire that work for a bit, and ignore the rest. We've got 3 weeks to fuss over the inconsistencies . And worry about what plot points they're going to drop next. :o
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 12:35
ste50, agree, that is what I was trying to get across too. Sam did not flip flop on his hope speech. He WANTS to live, that hope is not gone, the realization (after the physical toll of just 1 of 3 trials) he may not survive is now a reality. Maybe the final trial is only completed upon the death of the person doing them? Maybe they should have waited for Kevin to finish the translation....
Gerry
# Gerry 2013-02-28 12:54
Why is Sam only now realizing the trial may cost him his life? That was the position Dean started from and why he wanted to do the trials. I thought Sam knew the possibilities and chose to believe there was hope. I don't mind Sam struggling with the trials and hope, but not on the basis he didn't know what he was getting into. He more than anyone knows what may be asked. That's why to me his hope was so moving.
st50
# st50 2013-02-28 13:18
I don't believe he's "only now realizing" it, Gerry. I think he knew from the start, and simply believed he'd have a better chance at success than Dean, when Dean stated he expected death as the only outcome...

Knowing, accepting it, having hope of success and still feeling some worry/regret/fe ar isn't all that surprising, really, imo. Plus knowing how protective Dean is, and being afraid of his reactions.... I think that is very "Sam".
Gerry
# Gerry 2013-02-28 14:03
The issue for me is how the interaction with Prometheus is supposed to have impacted Sam. And that looked to be Sam losing hope because Prometheus did die in the end, as if now he's thinking death IS the only outcome. I have no problem at all with the way you are presenting Sam's thought process, but I do with the way the episode painted it. Sam has already faced doing the unimaginable for the good of humanity--I want the writers to remember his back story. I want to know his basis for hope.
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 13:34
They both are more than aware that death could be the final result. Dean assumed it, Sam wants to do everything he can to NOT have that be the result.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 14:31
Sam wanted to do the trials b/c he wanted to survive them. He saw Dean wanting to do them b/c Dean automatically thought the person would die, and Dean wanted that person to be himself. Sam thouht that was a bad attitude to have re: the trials.

Sam is now afraid. I like that Sam is expressing fear and doubt. It humanizes him. It's better than him functioning at 100% for 13 straight episodes last year DESPITE being plagued non-stop, 24/7 by Lucifer annoying the crap out of him! That made Sam "unreal" and "robotic" IMO.

Here, Sam expresses his fears. That was a great moment in the Impala.
E
# E 2013-03-02 09:31
This is how I saw it too st50. And this may be a small point, but didn't Dean say or it was indicated in some way that several weeks had passed since Sam took over the trials? It wasn't the next day that Sam started to doubt himself, its been a while. I think that we are meant to assume that some time has passed and Sam has been getting increasingly troublesome symptoms from the trials. The problem I think comes from the fact that we haven't really been shown this very well, other than one coughing incident and now one blood in the sink moment. We've kind of had to assume that things are getting worse for Sam without the benefit of having seen it much for ourselves.
st50
# st50 2013-03-02 09:36
Yes, I haven't looked at the transcripts, but I believe they said it had been 2 or 3 weeks since the trial began.

And I may be seeing things, but I think Sam's (Jared's?) make-up is getting paler. He's beginning to look tired and sick, to me. But maybe I'm imagining it. (or maybe that was just Jared's cold/flu)

I just laughed that, after spitting up blood, Sam could be tossed around and slammed into walls without even a tiny cough resulting.
His symptoms magically disappear in times of 'hunt'... kind of like Lucifer. :-*
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-02-28 14:34
I also think that Sam is trying to prepare Dean for the fact that Sam was overly optimistic about surviving the trials. When he took them on he believed he would survive and that he had the better chance of surviving because he did have the positive outlook. Now, the trials are taking a toll and he wants Dean to not be completely devastated and caught off guard if Sam dies. I mean, yes, I think Sam is afraid because he's human, but he also told Dean he would lead Dean to the light and now, he's seeing signs that he may not be able to do that.

Poor Sam. If he doesn't tell Dean the second he shows signs of being hurt he's a liar. As soon as he tries to work his way into the subject he is inconsistent and naive for not realizing there could be a problem. Guy can't win no matter what he does.
Ale
# Ale 2013-02-28 15:06
Quote:
Poor Sam. If he doesn't tell Dean the second he shows signs of being hurt he's a liar. As soon as he tries to work his way into the subject he is inconsistent and naive for not realizing there could be a problem. Guy can't win no matter what he does.
Ha, sadly, you are right. Poor Sam!
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 15:36
Amen
Gerry
# Gerry 2013-02-28 15:33
To me, the way Sam is poorly served is to have the guy who paid the harshest possible price to save the world give a speech to his realistic and fatalistic brother about the space for hope, and have the first trial drain him of hope because he didn't know it would be so difficult. I have no problem with Sam struggling with his fears, but set something up that would test a man who was willing to go to hell and let it play out. Even if we're dealing with PTSD from what he's gone through--show that. Don't give me Sam realizing from Prometheus he may not survive the trials, as if he was naive about the possible price. There's no way at this stage Sam is naive about suffering or prices.

I'd love to see why Sam of all people has hope, when he knows how harsh the universe can be. What was the basis of his speech to Dean? Dean was being logical about what the past has taught them. Show me that.
st50
# st50 2013-02-28 15:42
The problem, as always Gerry, is that we aren't given enough information on Sams motivations. We don't know what he's thinking and feeling. It might be fear, it might be realization that he was wrong and there is no "light", it might be acceptance that he may not survive and he needs to prepare Dean, it might even be hope tempered with reality. I have no idea.
Just like we don't know if Sam was jealous and resentful of Benny, or trying to protect Dean from being used the way he was.... Or why exactly he didn't look for Dean or try to find Kevin.

As always, it's up to the viewer to project their own interpretations onto Sam.

And this is why there are so many arguments and discussions. Makes him a fascinating character, but after 8 years, I'd like to be able to see into his head, for once, and know just what he's going through.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 17:06
Quote:
. . . but after 8 years, I'd like to be able to see into his head, for once, and know just what he's going through.
Couldn't have said it better myself! I have desperately wanted Sam's POV since S5. It would be nice to be told what he's thinking instead of guessing all the time.

That's why he needs a friend. If he had a friend, he might actually be able to talk to that person about his fears, desires, hopes, dreams, etc.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-03-01 20:31
Quote:
The problem, as always Gerry, is that we aren't given enough information on Sams motivations. We don't know what he's thinking and feeling. It might be fear, it might be realization that he was wrong and there is no "light", it might be acceptance that he may not survive and he needs to prepare Dean, it might even be hope tempered with reality. I have no idea.
Just like we don't know if Sam was jealous and resentful of Benny, or trying to protect Dean from being used the way he was.... Or why exactly he didn't look for Dean or try to find Kevin.

As always, it's up to the viewer to project their own interpretations onto Sam.

And this is why there are so many arguments and discussions. Makes him a fascinating character, but after 8 years, I'd like to be able to see into his head, for once, and know just what he's going through.
So would I. It is sad that we have to guess on Sam's motivations. It shouldn't be that way. He should be able to express them.
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 15:45
Gerry, you have your opinion on Sam and view the events last night as him flip-flopping, losing all hope in a week. No one is going to convince you differently, just like I have the exact opposite view. I do agree that Prometheus was NOT the catalyst for Sam's comments. Sam was saying it was another example (like Bobby and Rufus) where someone wanted to live, but "the life" had a different outcome.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 17:03
Quote:
I mean, yes, I think Sam is afraid because he's human, but he also told Dean he would lead Dean to the light and now, he's seeing signs that he may not be able to do that.
Very good point! Sam wants to be there to lead his brother to that light and now realizes he may not be able to do that! This is why Sam needs a friend. I'd love to hear him say something like this!

Poor Sammy!
Trucklady
# Trucklady 2013-02-28 22:37
Quote:
The bunker doesn't seem particularly impenetrable at this point.
That is not true. They were still at the motel when Artemis showed up in Prometheus' room.
st50
# st50 2013-02-28 11:52
Quote:

But I don't think his prayer got anywhere - the bunker is completely impenetrable from all Supernatural forces, angels included. So I doubt the prayer actually got to Cas. I think the purpose of that scene was to reveal to us Dean's state of mind - how hard it is for him to let Sam go forward with the trials, knowing it could kill him.
I have also though this. Cas didn't respond, and I doubt he heard any of it.

I thought the brother moments were much better this episode. I agree, Bamboo24, there was definitely some understanding between the guys, even without the words.
eilf
# eilf 2013-02-28 13:31
Hmm, asking a friend, who has recently been crazy and may turn out to be unstable enough to kill the person he is searching for, for help...where have I heard that plotline before?
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 12:19
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The brother moments didn't even sit that well. Sam's hope lasts all of one episode? Why, because he doesn't know all about sacrifice or the price that may be paid? He was just naive when he was arguing with Dean about hope? Guess that lovely dynamic in "Trial and Error" between the boys was just throw away rather than moving the boys forward.
I took this entirely differently. Sam's hope last episode came before the spell, remember, before he was afflicted by that light inside his hand/arm. The moment he experienced that pain, you could tell he was shaken up by it. Then he began coughing up blood. And Sam is faced with a catch-22: continue on and save the world, or stop and save himself. You can tell he's struggling with it - keeps having to remind himself that it's "worth it." And you can also tell he's trying to prepare Dean, in his own way, by gently suggesting - "hey, maybe I was naive to think I could make it through these trials unscathed." That was a confession if there ever was one. Like a neon sign screaming "I'm Not Okay." At that point Dean knew for certain that Sam was being affected, was hurting, but he was trying to not freak out about it - trying to let Sam do this on his own. But that doesn't mean he stopped worrying. I think Dean needed an anchor - needed to believe there was something or someone stronger than himself who could help look after Sam. And who does he have but Cas?
I couldn't agree more w/you, Bamboo!

In the episode where Sam says the spell, I saw Sam greatly affected by whatever happened to him. He says the spells, he falls to the floor in pain, and a light shoots up his arm. He was scared at that moment, but he put on his game face - the best he could - and told Dean he was all right and could handle it.

I thought Jared did a great job of looking frightened but also determined. Since then, he's been coughing up blood. He's scared! He's human. Why can't he be scared now that the effects of the trials are happening to him?

And he's probably also thinking that no matter what he wants (which is to survive the trials), he will likely die from doing them. Sam isn't going to give up at this point, but h was losing some faith, which is fine and normal to me. I love that Dean gave him a pep talk in spite of his growing fears. It reminded me of the time Dean told Sam he wasn't freaked out by Sam's visions and that everything was going to be okay, Sam walks away happier, and we see that Dean is actually very freaked out by the visions.

The boys lift each other up at times! I love it. That's what family does for each other.
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 12:31
lala2 and Bamboo24, totally agree. I don't think Sam has flip-flopped and now is "Oh well, I'm dead..." Your points above are IMO spot on. And I want to add Sam has NOT lost hope. His speech was not made void by his sullen emo crap. It's a natural human reaction when you are coughing up blood, not feeling well---and still have 2 more trials to complete. But Sam will do whatever he can to live--for him and for Dean.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-02-28 13:31
I completely agree, Bamboo23 and lala2.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 12:11
Dean did share the plan w/Hayley. On the drive over, he told her what their goals were. When they all walked away, she knew she was supposed to walk away too but she didn't do it.

Hayley was just a moron - IMO - from the moment she was introduced. She had to see Zeus do his thing before it hit her that she made the wrong choice!
E
# E 2013-03-04 08:49
I don't feel she was a moron, she was a desperate mother who decided to take the risk of letting Zeus out to help her son, just as Dean later decided to take the risk of asking Cas for help in watching over Sam. The parallel between Haley and Dean is pretty clear in the ep IMO. It's about weighing the risk against the potential gain. For Haley it was not worth the risk because all Zeus saw in Oliver was a way to continue to punish Prometheus. We have yet to see if the risk of Dean asking a compromised Cas for help will be worth it or not.
mer
# mer 2013-02-28 09:33
thanks for this speculation. I liked the episode

One thing I want to add is to your comment about Sam offering to take the kid for icecream in the middle of the night. To me that was hilarious!! My interpretation was that the invitation was put in the episode for the sole purpose of showing that Sam is very awkward around kids, has no experience or is uncomfortable with them. Loved how the kid said 'no'!!!
Amy
# Amy 2013-02-28 11:03
There are convenience stores that are open all night. International Hoouse of Pancakes are mostly open 24 hours as well as Dennys and various other non franchise diners....like Biggersons.

And we know they all serve ince cream in some form.
st50
# st50 2013-02-28 13:45
Quote:

One thing I want to add is to your comment about Sam offering to take the kid for icecream in the middle of the night. To me that was hilarious!! My interpretation was that the invitation was put in the episode for the sole purpose of showing that Sam is very awkward around kids, has no experience or is uncomfortable with them. Loved how the kid said 'no'!!!
Hi mer,
I didn't take that as Sam being awkward around kids, but rather that was a very awkward situation. The boys father - whom he'd only just met - had been killed, and they were burning his corpse just a few feet away. Sam's always had empathy, and was simply suggesting a way to remove the kid from an emotional situation.

I think Sam related to how the kid had been thrust into the Supernatural world, and had to grow up very quickly... Related to him having been cursed as a young child, and having to deal with the idea that he was a freak.... and he'd seen a parent killed right in front of his eyes.
All things mirroring Sam himself..... And yet, here Sam was a little unsure how to help Oliver deal with it.

And the fact that the child said "no" showed a) that the curse had been lifted from him, since he hadn't spoken since it began, and b) that the kid was growing up and facing his new life. Just like Sam and Dean had had to do.
Stephanie
# Stephanie 2013-02-28 09:34
I definitely enjoyed this episode. It's not a top ten, but it was enjoyable and definitely the best of the gods episodes.

One thing really bugged me though. The whole "you can find fulgarite in any new age store." Really? Previously, Show made a point of saying how rare it was. So rare that it was in museums and private collections, which is why they had to break into that couple's house to get it. And if it were that common, you can't tell me that Bobby wouldn't have known that. That just really irked me!

And on people saying it was OOC of Artemis to be in love with Prometheus. In the myths, she was goddess of the hunt and was so in love with the hunter Orion (a man) that when he died, she placed him in the heavens as a constellation. So, the love connection didn't bother me.

BTW, did anybody else think that the guy that played Prometheus looked a bit like scruffy Christian Bale?
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-02-28 09:51
Stephanie, YES, the minute he turned up on screen I thought he looked like Christian Bale when he was in 'Reign of Fire'. Only I liked this actor's hair a lot more, he was really rocking the whole messy, wavy hair thing. God, I'm so shallow sometimes lol.
st50
# st50 2013-02-28 11:11
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And on people saying it was OOC of Artemis to be in love with Prometheus. In the myths, she was goddess of the hunt and was so in love with the hunter Orion (a man) that when he died, she placed him in the heavens as a constellation. So, the love connection didn't bother me.
Stephanie - Yes, Artemis loved Orion. The only man she ever cared for in the slightest. She also CHOSE to remain the virgin huntress, and in some of the myths, SHE KILLED Orion.
Definitely not one to be dewy-eyed over another guy.
Sorry. That was OOC for her.
It would've been more in character for her to protect the females in the room.

But aside from the twisting of the mythology, which I've said I had expected, and the other issues (many of which already mentioned here) I really enjoyed the episode.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-02-28 14:38
I think the show probably got a lot of mail the last time when they made a big deal about how hard fulgarite is to find when, in fact, you can get it in any new age store. At least they made it a bit of a joke.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-02-28 14:51
I thought Bobby said last time that it had to be a really big one and that is the reason the broke into those peoples place.
eilf
# eilf 2013-02-28 17:24
I see it a bit like the bone of a lesser saint (think that's right...) scene from The French Mistake, occasionally it just doesn't occur to you that there might be an easier way to do something - it was funny anyway :D
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 09:45
Hi Gerry,
I think they brought the victims to the new digs because they know they can trust them. It actually sets the victims up to later be used by some 'bad guys' to get the location of the digs. But isn't the new/old location suppose to be the safest place on earth (don't recall the exact scene verbage). I imagine it is protected from evert moster under the Sun, like Bobby's panic room x1000. The Men of Letters was probably know to some outside the members in the past. If there was a spin-off show with Henry Winchester and the MOL, I bet weekly we'd have victims who were brought into their world and would find out about the MOL. The 'bad guys' would surely be aware of and constantly want to destroy them. It was nice to see Dean's pride in his family history, as so far we've seen (from Dean) Sam is the more instantly natrual fit into the MOL. I think Sam has not changed his mind about wanting to live. Sam will do everything he can to survive, he WANTS to live, that will never change. But remember the speech in Trial & Error happened before Sam completed the 1st trial. Once that happened, he had a physical reaction that no doubt will get worse after each furture trial. Maybe the tablet states whoever completes them will have to give up their life? Kevin has not finished the full translation. So the positive Sam is still positive, but with what happened, and related to the case they just finished, it makes sense Sam would say he will do everything to live, but maybe that will not be the outcome. The writers were not flip-flopping IMO, this is a natural change when Sam really had no idea what if anything would happen to him as he carried out the trials.
Gerry
# Gerry 2013-02-28 10:04
Hi Nate. How do the boys know these people will be able to keep such a huge secret? And this location is only as safe as the boys make it. Clearly Artemis could get in once she knew it was there. The MOL of years past obviously kept the secret very very well because no living hunters, even the Campbells, knew of its existence. For John and Bobby and Samuel to have no suspicion and the memory of the society to have vanished once the MOL were dead, the existence of the society was guarded very very well. And Sam and Dean just blew that all to heck for a one-off case of the week.

I hate the portrayal of stupid Dean we've been getting lately. Babbling about the MOL to impress a random woman on a case isn't taking his family legacy terribly seriously.

I don't think Sam has changed his mind on wanting to live; he's changed his mind on whether he has a hope to live. That it may cost his life I thought was a given both boys knew. It's just that Dean accepted that death was most likely and Sam believed they can take their fate in their own hands. He wanted to teach Dean hope. It was lovely, but it lacks punch if Sam's hope erodes in one episode.

And why would seeing Prometheus's fate make such an impact on Sam? He's suffered worse. If he had hope in Trial and Error, I don't know why he's lost it now. It makes his speech to Dean seem naive and Dean right in thinking he should do the trials. But then both boys will probably be in a different mind frame next week, since flip flopping week to week seems to be the norm.
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 10:35
Hi Gerry,
The boys bringing anyone to the MOL lair is going to be their choice. I will have to rewatch the parts of talking about the lair and if they were advised to never bring anyone there, but even if that is the case, the boys have never been good at following orders rather than chosing to act on their term and instinct. I do like your quote "the location is only as safe as they make it." True, but if the boys did not think there was threat, they will bring some to the lair. And technically there are only 2 others currently that know if it.
I don't see Dean as stupid when talking about MOL. I actually liked his enthusiasm and pride in it. I like he realized it is his history too, not just Sam the brains. I don't take it as he is using this to impress women. Just my opinion.
Sam has not lost hope. I believe he can see reality AND have hope. And remember, his speech was before any trial was completed. I wanted to go scuba-diving last week, had never gone, and was bragging how awesome it was going to be. I got in the water, freaked out, and reality hit me--not gonna happen today! (Sorry, vacation flashback!). I have hope I am going to train and get in the water, but the reality is it may not be for me. I think it is a natural human reaction to be knocked down a few pegs after the reaction Sam had to finishing the first trial. IMO Sam is thinking in reality, this may end in my death. Yes they knew that from the start, but Sam has hope at the light at the end of the trials tunnel, Dean did not. I think it's OK for Sam to have a moment of "sullen Emo crap," he is human. I still believe he has hope, he will always have hope.
I don't think it was Prometheus's fate that had a huge impact. Sam also brought up Bobby and Rufus. "The life chose for them." It was nice to see Sam open up to Dean about that, and Dean to really be there for him saying "Not going to happen."
Gerry
# Gerry 2013-02-28 10:54
Hi Nate! Sam was told by the only surviving MOL to lock the door and throw the key in to protect all that knowledge from falling into the wrong hands. And the boys haven't even brought poor Kevin to the lair, even though he needs protection and food! Why? I thought it was to keep the place secret. Evidently not. If the boys bring cases of the week casually to the MOL bunker, they are very poor MOL. The place is supposed to be secret.

Dean's enthusiasm would be adorable, except he's sharing things that should not be shared with a civilian he doesn't know. That's stupid--and I'm so tired of Dean being shown to be a stupid hunter.

Sam freaking out about the reality of the trials to me ignores his history as the guy who jumped into the pit to be tortured for eternity. He more than anyone knows the reality of their situation. The interesting thing about his position in Trial and Error was that he felt hope anyway in the face of Dean's fatalism. Flip flopping their positions in one episode to me is very poor writing. At least give Sam real set up for losing the hope he said he'd teach Dean, instead of making him look like he never considered it would cost him dearly.
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 11:12
Gerry,
I do recall the MOL lair 'throw away the key" comment. IMO if Dean and Sam are going to risk the lair, I trust them to do it. They are now in charge of a group that no longer exists, so the rules and processes will not be the same. Technically the boys are not MOL, that group is gone, the Winchesters now get the benefit of knowldege, gained from this defunct group which included part of their family. They will always consider themselves hunters. I would argue that the boys chose their own rules, times are different, they don't have an obligation to follow any old process. "Supposed to be" no longer applies.
IMO again, Sam was not freaking out, he was sharing some doubts that have crept in, after actually completing a trial. I will never believe Sam has lost hope. Ever. Sam is not flip-flopping IMO. He wants to survive. He will go down swinging, just like they did for the apocalypse.
Gerry
# Gerry 2013-02-28 11:22
Nate, to me, it's not just that the boys are not respecting their family legacy, it's also that they are not using common sense. Obviously they should keep that treasure trove of dangerous arcane knowledge secret--it's their ace in the hole.

And if Sam was not freaking out, why did Dean make that emotional prayer to someone he doesn't even trust right now? It doesn't make a lot of story sense that Sam has already lost hope, I agree, but there hasn't been a lot of story integrity this season, sadly.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-02-28 11:24
Sorry, Nate, I enjoyed reading your take on this but I'm going to agree with Gerry on some of these points:

I thought Dean's behaviour by 'bragging' about the MoL bunker etc to Mrs Prometheus came across more as Doofus!Dean rather than the Dean I like who is intelligent and doesn't behave like a big kid at the wrong time. (I hope I used 'doofus' correctly, I'm not American lol). I like Childlike!Dean but not at inappropriate moments where it's played just for laughs. Plus, in that scene, Sam's face as he looked at Dean after Dean's little bragging spurt, very much came across to me as a sense of "stop messing about, Dean and get back to being serious". Obviously, your mileage may vary, but that's how the scene came across to me :-)

I'm also not entirely sure what the brothers are playing at when it comes to who they tell about the MoL and who they show the bunker to. Given that it's so top-secret, hush-hush, crammed full to the rafters with important stuff, I'm quite surprised at their blasé attitude to bringing people there. I'm also surprised at their parking outside it too and hope that they at least buy some camouflage netting to cover the Impala ;-)
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 12:24
ciar,
You used Doofus very well :) IMO though I don't see it that way. I like doofus Dean--you can be a doofus in a fun, ligjht way and not meant to indicate a stupid person.
I was also not sure about the secretness of the liar, but then I thought the MOL do not exist. There are no rules. They boys can be told "SHHHHH, TELL NO ONE! NEVER LET ANYONE IN!" But guess what, they have the key to the door now, so in Team Winchester fashion, they are going to do what they want. They have no obligation to the MOL, to carry on the tradition, etc. That is NOT to say they don't respect MOL and all that comes with it, just that times are different. Giving the key to the two people that stopped the Apocalypse--the key could not be in better hands.
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 12:25
FORGOT TO COMMENT--you would think the lair would have a garage, right? I giggle every time I see the Impala outside the lair too :)
Leah
# Leah 2013-02-28 13:24
I don't know why, but the notion of the Impala being outside doesn't bother me that much. I guess if the bad guys are that close anyway it would only be a matter of time before they got discovered anyhow.

I am of the same opinion that Dean is just kind of proud of being a legacy. Should they have brought them there in the first place, or talked about the legacy?? Probably not, they should be very cautious I think.
Teresa
# Teresa 2013-02-28 17:58
Earlier when I said I wished there was a garage for the Impala at the bunker, I was more concerned about weather conditions. Lebanon, Kansas, is right in the middle of tornado alley. Plus it gets like two-feet of snow during an average year. I just want Baby safe, and for the guys not to have to dig it out from under the snow.
Leah
# Leah 2013-02-28 19:43
Aaah, that's sweet, Teresa- but now you have planted the idea in my head of a tornado being worked into an episode. That would be awesome.
Teresa
# Teresa 2013-03-01 00:30
Was driving through Kansas with a blizzard on my tail a few weeks ago. Really wouldn't want to live there without a shelter for my car.
As far as tornadoes...the bunker will be a safe place, but who knows what could happen to the Impala! (Don't worry, I know they're filming in Vancouver - I just want them to pretend with a little more accuracy.)
Ale
# Ale 2013-02-28 12:17
That is an interesting subject. What makes a secret society secret? It’s the secrets they keep or the members’ identity? Or both?

Because nobody knows S&D are MoL, but EVERYBODY knows who S&D are. They being MoL are just one more something that made them even more dangerous. Bad guys should be cursing this, but what else can they do about it?

As for bringing people to the bunker… Well, the boys are not exactly well known for being prudent. They are pretty reckless, actually. I thought interesting Dean acknowledge in the episode that they are throwing themselves blind in those trials. It was the concern of some of the fans: they got themselves only half the tablet, they started the trials without knowing what the other tasks are and they don’t know what will the consequences be, they only know there will be consequences. Pretty reckless. It was the same thing with the Zeus task: the mother was concerned and raised a lot of questions, to what they answered they didn’t know. But they did what they thought they should anyway. Well, they improvise a lot.
Ale
# Ale 2013-02-28 12:18
Ah, and Kevin said he wanted to be alone to concentrate. S&D would be a distraction for him in the bunker.
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 12:27
I agree Ale, the more I thought about the secret liar and MOL having to remain secret....says who? The MOL are gone. Sam and Dean have the keys now. Giving the key to the two people that stopped the Apocalypse--the key could not be in better hands. If they choose to have big dinner parties or a BBQ here and there, so be it. As long as Dean works the grill.
Gerry
# Gerry 2013-02-28 14:12
Plain old common sense would tell them that. If Sam and Dean have no common sense about keeping the lair secret, then they aren't the best guys to have thekeys and the lair could be in better hands. They finally have an ace in the hole, as well as a family responsibility to keep the ace safe. If they have dinner parties or barbecues or give guided tours, they are behaving like idiots.
Ale
# Ale 2013-02-28 14:40
Sorry, Gerry, but S&D do NOT use common sense.
Common sense dictates save yourself and your loved ones. S&D risk their lives everyday to save random dudes. By their logic, if saving that family means risking the secret lair, it's worth it. That's what Prometheus asked Sam: why were they doing that for him? Why, indeed, they don't HAVE to. But that's not why we love them?
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 15:08
Ale--your I agree with your response below.
Gerry, I think the boys have 'Winchester Sense'. MANY times they chose the direction common sense would indicate NOT to go--but most of the time they are right, and end up winning. If these two can keep the Earth safe from Lucifer, they are sure able to keep the lair safe. You could argue the boys should have never gone to the lair in the first place--WINCHEST ERS being anywhere makes that place not safe. The demon/monster world know all about the Winchester boys, and most probably stay as far away from them as possible. Winchester track record is near perfect, odds are a demon/monster/T HE DEVIL is going to lose. And to be clear, they are not responsible to keep the MOL going, that is not their family responsibility. MOL are done, gone, no more, have not been for many many years. This is MOL version 2.0, starring Dean and Sam Winchester. They have looked the Apocalypse in the face, and won. I'm not worried about the safety of the lair as long as there in a Winchester holding the key. And if the place is raided and all the books are burned, the boys are back in the same place they were before. Sure, that is a SAD, lonely place with no bath robes, but they are going to be MOL 2.0 on their own terms.
Gerry
# Gerry 2013-02-28 15:52
Ale: Sam and Dean have been shown to not only be excellent hunters but also to be able to sacrifice people to win the big picture. They suffer for it, but they do it. They do save random dudes but not at the expense of giving away an ace in the hole which may allow them to close the gates of hell. They won't willingly allow the forces of evil to get their hands on incredible weapons the Winchesters are now protecting. They make the hard calls when they have to. If they have absolutely no common sense about the batcave, then Garth may as well be doing the trials as them.

Nate, for me, the story has to work on its own merits. I have to believe it, rather than rely on the fact that as the Winchesters are the main characters, of course in the end it will work out. If the journey is unbelievable, then in the end, the boys are unbelievable and the show is unbelievable.

And yes, I do believe the boys considered that they shouldn't even be in the bunker. They were told not to be in the bunker because of the possibility of the stuff inside getting out in the wrong hands. And I believe they would make a different call and stay there--but only because they intend to do their best to keep the stuff safe. Which I need to see when relevant situations arise.

It was ridiculous to see Dean explaining the MOL to a civilian and actually telling her it's a secret society. Well, not anymore, Dean.

And I do believe they feel a responsibility to their Winchester heritage. I think that was the point of the key coming to them from their grandfather. It gives them another way to view themselves.
Ale
# Ale 2013-02-28 16:30
The way I see it, the Batcave is serving Sam & Dean, and not Sam & Dean are serving the Batcave. It is like the tablet – they were ‘warned’ not to touch it, but did they listen? Nooooo!

The only time I see them sacrificing other people for the common good is when they kill demon possessed people. And that’s been bothering me because they don’t debate that anymore as much as they should. Usually, they do in the heat of a battle and/or to prevent the demon from telling on them to others. It must continue to be shown as something not good or normal. They must address it more like they did with Kevin’s mother, because sometimes is hard to see the person inside – we only see the demon.

I’m yet to see Sam and Dean killing innocent people left and right to accomplish something. If they come to a point where they agree to sacrifice a child, for example, in order to close the gates of hell, I’ll have to rethink my love for the boys.

Garth doing the trials makes no sense at all. And I like the show because it is believable.

They don’t have a secret society anymore. Sam and Dean are the secret society. And they are not a secret.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 12:47
That's how I see it too, Nate. Sam is human and may now be doubting his ability to survive the trials. I'm not sure why that's wrong. It's very realistic IMO.
Ale
# Ale 2013-02-28 13:21
I agree.
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2013-02-28 10:34
Thanks Ardeo for the great review. I enjoyed this episode so very much. I've always loved Greek mythology, so that was a big plus for me right there, although making Artemis pine for Prometheus was not such a great idea. She is one of the very badass Goddesses and would NEVER pine for a man, she turned one of her would-be lovers into a deer to better kill him! Anyhoo, that aside, I thought it was a pretty good filler ep, especially compared to last week. :-)

Dean in a bathrobe with briefs, OMG. :oops: He's finally found a place he can be comfy in. He introduced Sam and him as Legacies expecting an awed reaction. :lol: Loved the guy playing Prometheus, and yes I do believe he was wearing Dean's clothes, certainly looked like his shirts. Zeus was a good scary. I liked the little boy and the way Sam went to him at the end. Dean praying to Cass to watch out for his little brother. :cry: The shout-out to Bobby. :cry: :cry: I'm really happy that we got to hear Dean say that he knows Sam is going through a rough time with the trials, he's not stupid, he can see these things. Okay, I'll stop know, cause I'll just go on forever.

Last note if anyone is interested in Greek gods. There is a book called "Gods Behaving Badly" by Marie Phillips. It's about some of the major Greek gods living in our time and how they've adapted. It is hilarious. It's mostly the Olympian gods, Artemis, Apollo, Zeus & Hera. Anyway, it's worth a good read, you won't be disappointed. ;-)
anonymous
# anonymous 2013-02-28 11:40
I appreciate everyone's input so far. In reading these comments, I wanted to put my own two cents in and PLEASE- no offense with my non-professiona l assessment but the way I deal with the week to week changes in Sam and Dean's character, their inconsistent behavior and the simple fact that gloves aren't used when touching a dead guy's mouth is that these boys are mentally unstable. Maybe I am being too simplistic but I don't get upset when I see their strange, uncertain motivations for what ever, I chalk it up as being due to all that they have been through...IMO, they should be thought of as a few fries short of a happy meal.
anonymous
# anonymous 2013-02-28 11:42
I forgot to add, they to me are crazy, brilliant, but crazy.
magichappening
# magichappening 2013-02-28 12:56
Interesting point of view! That could explain a lot of discrepancies - I too noticed the lack of gloves ickiness ;-)
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-02-28 13:02
Well obviously! :D
Ale
# Ale 2013-02-28 13:07
Quote:
I forgot to add, they to me are crazy, brilliant, but crazy.
Hahaha, they surely are, both brilliant and crazy! Would you do any of the things they do? I certainly wouldn't! I would probably be unconscious all the time, due to fainting! :D
eilf
# eilf 2013-02-28 13:36
Yep! Though in their defense they actually seem to know it. ;-)
Mary Ruh
# Mary Ruh 2013-02-28 12:25
One thing I noticed was at the end with the body burning, Hayley is standing there and Dean just puts his arm around her and then raises his chin up like he's watching over her. That just killed me. I replayed that part a few times. :lol:
magichappening
# magichappening 2013-02-28 12:43
Thanks Ardeospina. I agree much better than last week. I did still have some of the issues you had, but relieved we're on an upswing :)

• “Hoped the hit-and-run guy got some sort of comeuppance” Seconded! Then again, I am still hoping that Walt and Roy will get theirs too (dare to dream!)
• I immediately thought of the Greek myth when I saw the liver-eating-ea gle, but couldn’t think of the guy’s name...I got as far as ‘P, p, p Pythagorus?’
• The MOL lair must have garages > – unless they were all able to hop in and out of cupboards (or fireplaces - see Harry Potter ?floo network) with monotonous regularity!
• MUCH better, more believable Sam-bleeding-fr om-mouth scene.
• On your bathrobe-relate d points ;-) I very much approve too! I like how Dean is now wearing it less like a costume and more casually with his regular clothes.
• I liked the Sheriff and his zombie-fixation – after all somebody buys all those National Enquirer (or Weekly World/World Weekly News) copies!
• Jason Bourne line: Ha!
• Did they leave him alone in the room? Yeah, this jarred me a bit too - bit of a reach.
• I liked Dean being proud of being a 'legacy' :) For me twasn't being dumbed down, just cute ;) I do take people's point about sharing the secret of the MOL however...
• I only wondered about the editing/writing a couple of times this week. Once was during the MOL scene with Prometheus etc:
Sam: It says here he summoned Zeus and found out how to kill him.
Prometheus: What's that?
Dean: Wood.
(Me: Huh?)
I guess Dean had already read that (unlike the rest), but it felt rather clunky to me.
• I missed the minivan! But liked Dean throwing Sam the Impala keys.
• "Balls!" Yay, Bobby reference!
• Agree about the whole Hayley-and-Oliv er-being-left-w ith-Zeus – not great. Believable that she wouldn’t immediately start walking away with them (she is less experienced at these kinds of ‘negotiations ’ and she is also the most desperate to get help for her son), but it would have helped a lot if they had thrown in a line for one of the guys to say ’Come on Hayley, let’s go’...
• Interesting point about Artemis being a man-hater. I know very little about Greek mythology, but some of the commenters above have made the same point. Although someone did also point out that she was in love with Orion at one point?
• ‘Dean’s really invested in Sam living a normal life’. I like this too. And the comments that he made earlier in the season about Sam not really meaning it about leaving hunting, I put down to Purgatory PTSD (it is TOO a thing!) and hurt that Sam had not looked for him. But Dean has calmed down since and thought further about this as evidenced by his comments about wanting Sam to have grandkids and telling Sam to go find his girl.
• I loved the way they handled Dean knowing Sam was hiding something, but not flying off the handle about it. Perfect. And I do think Dean would still ‘pray’ to Cas about it, despite his post-Purgatory doubts about Cas. After all... it’s Sam. And Dean has no other way of doing anything to help his brother. He’s kind of in the position Hayley was when she let Zeus out...
• A plea from a spoilerphobe: For those of us who avoid being spoiled like the plague, to the extent that we don’t watch previews, could there be a spoiler alert before any info that is not from the episode itself (I am assuming your last bullet point came from the next episode’s preview?) If not, I do apologise - just ignore me!

I think there used to be a warning at the beginning of the article explicitly stating that the preview would be included in the discussion. So I regretfully stopped reading the articles, but this also meant I missed out on the immediate reactions and discussions, which are fun and part and parcel of being a fan. This season I was happy to see you had taken off the preview warning and had avoided non-episode spoilers - but then your last bullet...

Overall, this episode was a solid effort for me, the quibbles above notwithstanding . I liked all of the guest stars for once (!) and I think splitting up the Dan Loflin/Andrew Dabb writing team this season is paying off :)
love2boys
# love2boys 2013-02-28 13:18
Did anyone else think Dean putting his arm around Hayley for comfort at the end will grow into something more during the mini-hiatus? She knows about the bunker, she knows they are hunters, she hasn't seen Shane for 7 years, and Dean put his arm around her! The arm alone would do it for me!
Nate
# Nate 2013-02-28 13:32
PLEASE CHUCK NO!!
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-02-28 14:05
Quote:
PLEASE CHUCK NO!!
I'm chiming in with Nate on this one. NOOOOOOOOOOO!!! !! :-x
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-01 06:59
Sorry love2boys
She was written so poorly. First she has the smarts to find Shane, and keep up with Sam and Dean's thinking, and also adds a few smart thinky thoughts of her own. Then suddenly when Zeus appears, she lets him out AND she knows HOW to as well? come on! there was nothing in the storyline that hinted at her knowing how sigils work! Then she keeps her son next to her!!! What the crod. What mother has her child face the most vindictive god known to man. Then OH dear!! he kills the father IN FRONT of the child!!! NEVER saw THAT coming. Nope not Deans type AT ALL!!!!!!
magichappening
# magichappening 2013-02-28 14:10
Quote:
Did anyone else think Dean putting his arm around Hayley for comfort at the end will grow into something more during the mini-hiatus? She knows about the bunker, she knows they are hunters, she hasn't seen Shane for 7 years, and Dean put his arm around her! The arm alone would do it for me!
Ha! With you on the arm, love2boys! And with due respect to ciar and Nate, but I liked Hayley :)
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 20:10
That is a HORRIFIC idea. Sorry. I couldn't stand Hayley! She was an idiot. Lisa was better than Hayley and less moronic.
magichappening
# magichappening 2013-02-28 21:17
Oh dear. Well, I liked Lisa too if that helps!
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-28 21:27
Sorry :-)

I didn't like Lisa for Dean either. I pretty much hated the Dean/Lisa relationship. I just thought Hayley was worse than Lisa.

I did like Ellie though. She and Dean would be cute together IMO.
love2boys
# love2boys 2013-03-01 20:34
Hey, magichappening and lala2, I really kind of liked the survor "psychic" in Lillydale in the Mentalist. She was cute and I thought she had a lot of chemistry with Dean. She was introduced to Dean's world in a big way in that epi. I liked Ellie too.
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-01 21:08
lala,magichappe ning,and love2boys, what about Jamie from Monster Movie?? No one ever mentions her but I thought she had great chemistry with Dean. She was plucky and adapted well to the weird. Sam even liked her. Maybe I am alone in this but she gets my vote.
love2boys
# love2boys 2013-03-01 21:25
I LOVED MM. And Jamie was great. Dean needs someone to share funny with. She was funny. Great idea! I like her! Speculating is fun, right?
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-01 21:28
Right! Thanks.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-02 09:22
Hahaha . . . Leah . . . I called her Casey, but I just mentioned Jamie from MM. She would be good w/Dean.
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-02 10:55
Actually Casey was kinda cool, but I guess she is off the table being a demon and all. And dead. They did have chemistry :-)
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-01 22:17
Ellie, was good, but she wasn't a hunter either. Although I guess her life/soul is still under threat so at least it wouldn't be a complete "civilian". But I really think the best match for both boys would be another hunter or someone like Charlie who is at least on the fringes of the life. Someone who understands the risks and the dangers going in and who can take care of themselves to some extent.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-01 22:21
Although, I think that any romance should take place basically at the end of the series. Romantic entanglements just don't fit very well within this show.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-02 09:20
Yeah . . . she was okay. That girl Casey from Monster Movie was cool too.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-02 09:51
lala
For the life of me I cannot remember who Ellie was?
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-02 13:01
kaz1, I had to think about it too we someone first said it. It's the girl from Trial and Error. The one who had sold her soul.
Nate
# Nate 2013-03-01 08:38
Hoffific idea, I think bad or boring idea is more like it. Hayley was not an idiot. I thought the actress was very good. Hayley was a concerned mother, not an idiot.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-01 09:55
Nate.
I wasn't comfortable with the character's decision to take her son to go the Zeus summoning. Not at all in fact! What did she expect to happen there? It isn't rocket science to grasp this might not end well, the poor kid watches his father's death!!! Maybe idiot is a bit harsh, but I am struggling to find a kinder word! IMO
Also, I mentioned this earlier, but how on earth did she know to release Zeus from the sigil? Bad writing?
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-01 10:35
The reason for summoning Zeus was to get the child released from the curse (or it was by the time they got to the warehouse anyway). Not to release Prometheus, and not to kill Zeus. Killing Zeus was really Plan B.

The assumption being that the child needed to be there to be released from the curse and also so that Zeus's better nature could be appealed to.

Zeus doesn't have a better nature.

It was very dumb to leave Hayley behind when they called Zeus's bluff though.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-01 10:40
eilf
Quote:
It was very dumb to leave Hayley behind when they called Zeus's bluff though.
I've only watched in once, but I thought it was because they were trying to call his bluff. Hayley didn't have the smarts to realise that? What your take on it
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-01 10:41
oops I see you also thought it was to call his bluff. Then what of Hayley's smarts?
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-01 13:47
Well, as I see it, she is a civilian and a mother, they ought to have realized she might have thought they were actually going to leave and not help her son.

I suppose it happened in the moment - they couldn't let on to Zeus that they were bluffing obviously so one of them should have made sure Haley left too. It was a mistake, but stuff happens :D It was a better plan than the one with Henry Winchester at least...
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-02 09:48
Loving the avatar eilf
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-02 13:06
Why thank you :D It's my mother's cat - she is called Snowball.
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-02 15:07
Snowball? That's funny. She is a beauty.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-02 15:54
I guess it snows charcoal in the Ire!? But I salute you on your computer skills, wouldn't have a clue how to catch my own avatar. I have a cat that I could use I suppose, but he is truly evil, and may snack your darling Snowball. But I'm guessing black cat = black magic or is this a stretch?
E
# E 2013-03-02 21:52
She could be the twin of my little girl kittie!!
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-02 22:21
Thanks all :-) she might be a doppelcat E? She certainly is a wimp and not half as magical as she thinks she is Kaz.
E
# E 2013-03-04 08:55
Maybe a dopplecat? My little Gwennie is a 6 1/2 pound scrappy little fighter with an over developed hunting instinct. She'll chase anything!
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-04 09:06
E
Not if my Greebo evil Captain Cat was chasing Gwennie!! no contest :D
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-04 09:09
He purrs to entice you, then shreds you with callous disregard to the import of intact skin, then saunters off flicking his tail in satisfaction. Evil never found a better host
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-04 09:11
Granny weatherwax would be proud!
E
# E 2013-03-04 19:59
Ah that's a male cat for you...fickle things! Loving one moment, disemboweling you the next with no warning. Gwenn is quick though, I'm not sure Greebo could catch her. My big (and ultra whimsy) Monty can't catch her, though he does try.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-06 13:49
E
Bet you don't know who Granny Weatherwax and Greebo come from?
E
# E 2013-03-06 16:31
Nope! Thought it was YOUR cat?! I thought you were smack talkin'
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-06 17:16
E
Nope. Read Wyrd Sisters by Terry Prachett. About 3 witches (ddare I mention witches). Granny weatherwax and Nanny Ogg who has the most evil cat in the world called Greebo. Love his books.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-01 13:59
Quote:
I've only watched in once, but I thought it was because they were trying to call his bluff. Hayley didn't have the smarts to realise that? What your take on it
They were definitely calling his bluff. I agree w/you, Kaz! I thought Hayley understood that but assumed she knew better than the prof'ls who deal w/this type of thing on a daily basis.

But if she didn't even realize they were just bluffing, then she's even dumber than I originally thought.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-01 13:55
For me, she seemed pretty stupid. Her child dies on a daily basis and then comes back to life the next day, but she doesn't want to believe what the boys are telling her!?!?!? Why not? It was no crazier than the tale of her kid who comes back to life each day.

I found all of her questions annoying. Look, they are trying to help you. You have no other person offering help so just accept the help.

Dean tells her the plan in the Impala, and what does she do? She goes and frees Zeus. Why in the world would she expect him to live up to his part of the bargain? He cursed her BF to die everyday . . . . there's clearly nothing compassionate or nice about this man!
st50
# st50 2013-03-01 14:07
Answering as a mother...
If my child was suffering - dying - daily, and I was staring at the face of the one being who could stop that, could Fix it.....
And then was asked to "follow the lead" of two guys I'd just met - who were seriously into some weird stuff - and just walk away from him?

I don't think I could do it.

I think I would've stayed right there... tried something else. Anything....
To save my child? Yes, I'd have released him, if I thought he'd fix it.

They'd have had to just pull me physically away. (which is what they should've done, but neither of them is a parent, so...)

She may have been stupid and screwed it up, but I think I would've, too. Anything for my child.
magichappening
# magichappening 2013-03-02 21:57
Hi love2boys, Leah, Nate, Kelly, kaz1 and lala2 :) Rejoining the conversation belatedly: Yup, I really liked Ellie (THAT'S what the girl who managed the ranch was called!), Jamie from Monster Movie, Casey from Sin City, the survivor psychic from The Mentalists, I concur...hmmmm. ...who else - shall have a quick look.

I wasn't keen on Jo, Bella or Anna I have to say, but apart from that I think I was pretty happy with all of Dean's 'women', including Lisa and Hayley. I mean I hv to confess I didn't even mind Cassie (her MOTHER on the other hand!). Um I liked Layla, Tessa, Carmen, Pamela, didn't have a problem with the Amazon woman, the original Haley from Wendigo and there are probably others I am forgetting :)
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-01 09:59
I agree with you lala
Just mentioned to Nate that I find it difficult to reconcile a mother who takes her kid to a Zeus summoning, (only to watch his father being murdered) under the 'concerned mother' column.
Nate
# Nate 2013-03-01 10:09
kaz1,
Sam and Dean chose to bring mother and son. The plan was for Zeus to remain in the seal. Remember one of the first things Zeus said was "release me from the seal," that is how Hayley very easily knew to break the seal to free Zeus. She did that, because as a concerned mother, she chose to trust Zeus when he said he would help her son. Concerned mothers do not always make the right choices (she's not a Winchester :) ). Dumb move on breaking the seal, but her only concern was saving her son.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-01 10:30
Nate
You're right, parents do the darndest things, and I can understand that. I just don't understand why she panicked though. When Dean and Sam were leaving, it was with confidence that Zeus couldn't go anywhere, well my take on it anyway. She had all the bargaining power she needed, so why not get her son out first before she released Zeus! That is what I would have done. Releasing Zeus whilst her son was around was extremely dangerous, especially the hatred he had for the father. She was written as having the smarts, so how was this showing concern for her son. Bad writing.

Tks for the 'phone in' thing. Interesting, I have never considered J&J's efforts to be below par. What was Chrisgranny alluding to?

I LOVED this ep by the way Nate, it really had that old style Sam and Dean back again. The camera work was great
Nate
# Nate 2013-03-01 10:55
kaz1,
Your scenerio sounds much better, but then there would not have been all the big drama :) Maybe she thought if she didnt act right away, the boys would not have let her deal directly with Zeus (which was not a good idea, very true). She was in a panic and reacted, but did the wrong thing. She SHOULD have let the boys control the situation.
E
# E 2013-03-01 15:48
I understood it that the son HAD to be there, he was one of the ones who was cursed after all. I don't think Haley had a choice in the matter. It's not like Zeus, with his diminished powers in modern day could have healed the kid if he was out in the car....
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-01 18:05
Hey Nate and kaz1, I read chrisgranny's comment yesterday and I think you guys misunderstood her. She was referring to a comment she read and was saying she didn't think they "phoned it in", that they do good work even if they are burned out. At least that's how I took it. :)
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-02 09:30
Leah
I went back and checked and you're spot on Leah! Chrisgranny loves the boys tooo much to ever think they were phoning in. I had to ask Nate what it was :oops: Americans are strange :D how did 'phoning in' ever come to represent a poor performance due to burn out! Explain that one to me Leah. And jumping the shark took me a while too! :D I love that one though and I have used it many times since.
I agree chrisgranny, I am amazed at the level of insight some posters demonstrate on this site. My mind boggles at the level of history and knowledge they have. I have to rerun the eps to get some understanding of where they're at then whoooosh they have moved on to some other equally intense subject, which has me getting up change DVD's again. Up and down up and down like a whores draws, and I'm ALWAYS on the back foot. :P
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-02 10:45
Hey Kaz1, It is funny, we have so many sayings that when you stop and think about it, make no sense at all. I THINK phoning it in refers to someone calling in their work from home intead of actually going in, thus making a half-hearted effort. I see you have some too!! Bye the way, what the heck is a "crod"? :-)
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-02 15:50
Ok you got me there :P A crod is nothing more than an invention to stop swearing f expletives on my side of the pond. What the chuck is catching on fast tho :D
E
# E 2013-03-02 21:56
We call them F - bombs!!! :lol:
love2boys
# love2boys 2013-02-28 16:16
Thanks, magichappening! I liked Hayley right up until the moment Dean put his arm around her! :P Just kidding! She reminded me somehow of the bartender in the episode - can't think of the name - where Sam puts his soul/mind back together.
magichappening
# magichappening 2013-02-28 21:24
Ha! I know what you mean love2boys :) I know who you mean about the girl for Sam too, tho I remember liking her,I can't remember her name either. I have to confess I liked Amelia as well - apart from the first episode she was in where I thought she was really abrasive...But for me it's nice to see either of the guys find people to connect with :)
fanotheboyz
# fanotheboyz 2013-02-28 17:04
OK, I LOVE Dean in jammies or undies and a bathrobe, but is Sam just researching and sleeping on the library tables? Seriously, the guy is hurting and has to be sleeping a lot, but where? Would like to see his digs and cozy wardrobe, too.
sharon pence
# sharon pence 2013-02-28 18:40
Am I the only one ,I haven't read all of the other comments, but this episode does seem to me to tie into the season and not just be a stand alone. Much better on second viewing. I few things I noticed.
When Hayley said she had even hired a P.I. to look for Shane Dean gave Sam a look. (did you have anyone try to look for me Sam)
Dean enjoying the new digs what a life they have had why not enjoy something nice for a change while you can it will probably go to shit soon enough.
Sam and the icecream the way I looked at it as the writer's saying see Sam just wants to get away from this and the kid is more grown up or has more wisdom in saying he wants to stay. Parallel Dean trying to get Sam to see the risks now Sam is seeing them too and starting to have doubts after all his bravado
The scene where Dean mentions they are M.O.L it seems like Prometheus just doesn't know what he is talking about and Sam is just giving him his usual bitch face.
If you could interchange characters with the present realm people with the Gods. We have Prometheus and the boy (Sam) Zeus SPN's God , Artemus Dean or Castiel their anger and loss of faith in God. Am I nuts.

Also Dean's speech at the end or prayer to Cas who else is he supposed to talk to,to express his fears and his love for his brother. They are still not talking to each other in the true sense of the word.

As to Hayley I thought she was very attractive not in a stunning fashion but a believable kind of beauty, I thought she played her part well and the fact that she now knows about the SPN and the Batcave does make me wonder if she will not make another appearance down the line. By the way loved her highlights in her hair. I thought her and Dean standing together around the fire his arm around her was a nice moment and they looked good together and could see her as a love interest for Dean, altho the comparison with Lisa and Ben with Hayley and Oliver is a little obvious.

I don't see Dean as being dumb-down in this episode. To me last episode was just an aberation and should go up in smoke.

Last but not least the whole argument about no myth-arc for Dean or he is just the side-kick.
Remember that we are our brother's keeper, almost every religion seems to hold this view. Also Dean is the caretaker and I see no problem with this scenario it is an honourable thing to be. He is also the saviour to me. He is a dick at times that's OK.

Phoning it in comments. Now into it's 8th season I am sure there is a little burnout, and sometimes these 2 guys will have to reach deep to keep it real, and I think they are doing a standup job.

I must admit I have never got into the deep analysis that some of you do and I would find that to be a real detriment to me enjoying the show or any show for that matter I just take what I get except in the exception of a really lousy episode like last week, any other show I would have turned it off. It's like taking pics all the time to show your event or cataloging your life it takes away the moment for me , I rely on others to do it for me. Why I like to read the episode analysis on here.

Dean/Jensen can still rip my heart out. Sorry I am just such a Dean girl I cannot help myself. Now to go back to the beginning to see Dean in the robe again.
Nate
# Nate 2013-03-01 08:28
Never have Jared or Jensen phoned anything in. Ever. In the worst scripts ever, they are 100% in. In fact their performances in the lesser episodes are some the the hard to find highlights.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-01 09:44
not sure what 'phoned in' means?
Nate
# Nate 2013-03-01 10:11
'Phoned In' means the actors give a performance where they don't care, they are just 'going through the motions" or reading the lines with no feeling at all.
Arad
# Arad 2013-02-28 20:00
Wow so many great comments! I really enjoyed this episode, especially thought Zeus was a great villain. I share some if Gerry's misgivings about the sudden renewal of Dean's trust in Cas but I think it might be able to be explained by taking seriously what Dean said about prayer being like begging. No doubt Dean sees the gravity of the situation and is prepared to beg and take risks if it might provide an opportunity to help Sam. It might not be the most logical thing but this is Dean Winchester we are talking about!! (Though I suspect it was also included to remind us that Cas is out there somewhere and to expect to see him again soon!)

There were odd things to do with timing (I have felt that about almost every episode this season) and some of the conversations were like something out of anime where the characters are really just speaking to tell you the story. How did Sam get the idea of titans in the first place? And why did they have to include that odd scene where he suggested going to get ice cream sundaes (in the middle of the night) - it just made him look daft. But I loved the scene where Sam was up against the wall being all sassy and Dean's brilliant facial expressions. Jensen was great - especially since it's usually Jared who does the amazing facial acting.

I liked Hayley and I wouldn't mind seeing her again; yes even as a love interest. Is it a gay thing or was Prometheus incredibly fit? Beautiful eyes, cute face, tangled hair, beard *goes off into inappropriate fantasy world*. Ahem... Anyway I was really hoping he would survive and maybe be around in the future (I mean ffs the writers kept the boring man-witch alive last week!).
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-02-28 20:26
I think the ice cream thing could have been written a little better, but we really don't know how late it was. And you can get ice cream someplace 24/7 in the US. I think if Sam had said, "Hey you want to get out of here. Go get some ice cream or something?" It would have worked a little better.

Quote:
Is it a gay thing or was Prometheus incredibly fit? Beautiful eyes, cute face, tangled hair, beard *goes off into inappropriate fantasy world*. Ahem... Anyway I was really hoping he would survive and maybe be around in the future (I mean ffs the writers kept the boring man-witch alive last week!).
Definitely not a gay thing. That guy was FINE. And I'm not even a fan of beards. Yeah I wouldn't have minded him sticking around either.
Leah
# Leah 2013-02-28 20:31
No no not just a gay thing! :-)
magichappening
# magichappening 2013-02-28 21:38
While I am, and forever more will be, a Dean girl ;) you are not alone in the appreciation of a well-fitting Henley! Prometheus was pretty easy on the eyes, despite our staring into the Winchester double sun!

I think Sam thought of the Titans because of the eagle-eating-th e-John Does-liver, the multiple resurrections and the story about the mountain in Europe. Kind of breadcrumbs to the hypothesis of the week. Too thin?

And I think the ice cream scene was to make Sam awkward, but also because maybe he identified with the kid and wanted to make some sort of gesture from a normal life for him (maybe something Sam would have appreciated when he was a kid and in a similar scenario). Plus to get him away from a gruesome scene. I liked it cos it was so awkward but it was nice to see Sam connect a little with a kid - can't think of him having done that since Jesse, the AntiChrist...it 's usually Dean - tho Dean struck out too at the motel room door when they first met Oliver (although there is NO WAY Dean would have casually displayed a corpse to people in that amateur way come ON, writers!)

I liked Hayley too and I agree it was a shame Prometheus had to die and James (who I would not notice unless I fell over him) got to live. Such are the vagaries of fate! Oh and the scene against the wall with Artemis, I was trying to think who Dean's facial expressions reminded me of - I don't usually enjoy the physical humour I have to say, but on rewatch it suddenly clicked who he reminded me of: Jack Sparrow. Thoughts? :)
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-02 09:42
magichappening
Quote:
(although there is NO WAY Dean would have casually displayed a corpse to people in that amateur way come ON, writers!)
I know sometimes it is just plain funny. Didn't you find it odd that there is a window to an arbitrary corridor in the morgue where anyone can see Prometheus. I get that you need to id bodies, but isn't that done where the bodies are stored? I just felt the window jumped out coz it was necessary for the scene to work.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-02 13:08
kaz1,I don't know how realistic it is (I've never had to ID someone-thank God). But I know I've seen similar rooms on shows many times that are set up just like that. Like both are part of the morgue, but one room is set up with a window for ID purposes. So if that is a contrivance, SPN didn't create it. :-)

And I guess on Dean bending and showing Shane is just supposed to be a brain fart on his part.
E
# E 2013-03-02 22:03
Rooms like this are common to allow family members to identify a dead loved one, but at the same time keep the family out of the actual morgue itself. Typically these rooms are in a secure part of a facility and "civilians" must be escorted there. You can't just walk by it and see random bodies tho.
magichappening
# magichappening 2013-03-02 22:10
Hi love2boys, Leah and lala2 :) Yup, I really liked Ellie (THAT'S what the girl who managed the ranch was called!), Jamie from Monster Movie, Casey from Sin City, the survivor psychic from The Mentalists hmmmm....who else - shall have a quick look.

I wasn't keen on Jo, Bella or Anna I have to say, but apart from that I think I was pretty happy with all of Dean's 'women', including Lisa and Hayley. I mean I hv to confess I didn't even mind Cassie (her MOTHER on the other hand!). Um I liked Layla, Tessa, Carmen, Pamela, didn't have a problem with the Amazon woman, the original Haley from Wendigo and there are probably others I am forgetting :)
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-02 23:07
Hi magichappening- Some good choices- Yeah, loved Tessa, although her true appearance was a little gnarly. Layla, she was pretty great, alas probably departed. I liked the actress that played Cassie but didn't really see much chemistry there despite the love scene :-)
love2boys
# love2boys 2013-03-03 16:46
Hey magichappening, leah and lala2: Casey the demon is dead, shot by Sam with the "new" Colt, therefore probably not a good match for Dean since she is most sincerely dead. Who was Layla? Can't place her... I liked all the other women you mentioned. Keep up the good work matchmaking!
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-03 17:28
Hi love2boys, Somewhere around here in my first post on the subject I mentioned that she was probably off the table due to her being a demon and dead. :-) We were playfully kicking around names of people who Dean had chemistry with. Layla was the woman who got passed over by the evangelist who went on to cure Dean in FAITH. She is most likely dead also. But at least not a demon :-)
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-01 10:02
Arad
Prometheus over Hayley any time of day or night!!
Hayley didn't do it for me am afraid.
Leah
# Leah 2013-02-28 20:11
You know I would love to see Dean happy, but I just can't see Dean going down that road again, especially with a "civilian" and her seemingly vulnerable child. After all the pain he felt he caused Lisa and Ben.

I agree with you that Dean's role of watching out for his brother is honourable. Sam is a grown man and chafes at it sometimes but I think he needs Dean as much as Dean needs to be needed.

I can't think of many actors that can tear your heart out as much as Jensen. Except maybe Jared.
Leah
# Leah 2013-02-28 20:25
oops, meant for chrisgranny.
Sammo
# Sammo 2013-02-28 21:54
So it appears to me that many fans are overlooking a subtle but possibly important plot event in this episode. (at least in relation to the boys arsenal of monster killing items.) ready for it?... Artemis' arrow! Early in the episode while Sammy is doing the lore rundown he casually mentions that Artemis' dagger/weapons can kill gods and titans. (possibly important) And then Artemis makes it a point to remove the arrow and toss it aside before she takes Zeus' body away. Are you telling me that the boys didnt snag that and stick it in the Impala's trunk? Maybe it ties into the God Trial story? (on Hell task, One Heaven Task and one Pagan Task?, even if unrelated it could be a valuable plot point in the future as a "Surprise Pagan God, Now you're Dead", kind of weapon. ---End brain vomit
Sammo
# Sammo 2013-02-28 22:48
p.s i just re watched the episode and Artemis leaves the bow too! O.o (and Sam is acing like hes under someones influence or he has unexpected God knowledge.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-02 09:46
Good observation Sammo
I could never understand why S & D never collected the angel stabbers/knives /swords or whatever they are called. They would have had enough to smite any angel left in existence.

I've often wondered why they don't collect more weapons from enemies as they go along and then use them in later eps. Would be great
Trucklady
# Trucklady 2013-02-28 22:49
I was wondering if anyone else noticed that in Dean's room, when he is praying to Cas, that the picture of him and Mary was no longer propped up on the light where he placed it several eps ago. Guess the PTBs missed that little detail.
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-02-28 22:58
Or maybe Dean just takes the photo with him (in his wallet) when they go out on a job... so he always has his Mom watching over him :sigh:
sharon pence
# sharon pence 2013-03-01 15:31
I was alluding to comments I saw somewhere critical of the dog episode and how bad it was and that mabe the boys felt it was stupid to. I thought it was here but maybe somewhere else.
I for one never for a moment think they phone it in exactly the opposite . In fact with episodes like they have had lately I imagine they have to work even harder. Sorry if I ruffled any feathers.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-01 22:08
chrisgranny, I think it was on this site maybe, just another thread. There was a discussion on the Misha as a regular cast member thread about the fear that the J and J would get burned out if they kept up the same pace. I think it was me who mentioned that when that happened on other shows, the actors eventually ended up phoning it in. I never suggest that either had done this. Just a fear that they COULD eventually get worn down if this pace continued.

So if anything it was my fault, not yours.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-02 09:37
Not a ruffled feather in sight. All smooth and preened chrisgranny. Ah but the brain is another story :D
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-02 11:06
sam's knowledge about greek gods seemed perfectly normal to me. i even get how he guessed about artemis and her love for prometheus. the whole scene with sam and dean against the wall, dean was focused on zeus and the kid, sam was focused on artemis.

did anyone else question the part dean questioned? how sam knew the kid was hardwired for the curse. when dean asked sam how he knew that, sam had this look on his face ....it was like he didn't know how he knew, he actually seemed suprised, either that or he couldnt say how he knew...it was just something that stood out to me.

also something else made me take notice. it was the term dean used referring to oliver's curse. he didn't say it was inherited. he didn't use the term fated or destined. he used the term hardwired. dean asked sam how he knew the curse was hardwired into the kid....the angels used the same term regarding their programming...h ardwired.

i just thought that the use of that word was significant. of all the words they could've used. it could be that after all these years paranoia has set in...but i'm not so sure...


i guess that reverse exorcism just popping up in sam's head spur of the moment when he supposedly ran from hunting for a year still makes my ass twitch. ;-)
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-02 12:56
Quote:
did anyone else question the part dean questioned? how sam knew the kid was hardwired for the curse. when dean asked sam how he knew that, sam had this look on his face ....it was like he didn't know how he knew, he actually seemed suprised, either that or he couldnt say how he knew...it was just something that stood out to me.

also something else made me take notice. it was the term dean used referring to oliver's curse. he didn't say it was inherited. he didn't use the term fated or destined. he used the term hardwired. dean asked sam how he knew the curse was hardwired into the kid....the angels used the same term regarding their programming...hardwired.

i just thought that the use of that word was significant. of all the words they could've used. it could be that after all these years paranoia has set in...but i'm not so sure...


i guess that reverse exorcism just popping up in sam's head spur of the moment when he supposedly ran from hunting for a year still makes my ass twitch. ;-)
nappi, Sam's look of confusion or whatever struck me too and I also immediately thought of the reverse exorcism thing. But I just figured it was wishful thinking on my part. I keep hoping that there is something more to Sam's story.

I didn't notice the hardwired part but that does seem like an interesting coincidence.
E
# E 2013-03-02 22:21
I love this idea! I really hope that there is something to all these little head scratching moments. I guess that I would prefer that if there IS supposed to be subtext to pick up on that they'd make it just a teeny weeny bit more obvious... i mean, i dont want to be spoon fed or have anvils dropped on my head or anything, but if these moment are actually some kind of clue to an underlying story they're downright microscopic!
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-04 05:40
Ps. don't mention Dr. Pepper to E
E
# E 2013-03-04 09:09
Too late! and CHERRY Dr. Pepper to boot! double blech
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2013-03-05 05:26
E, I am very willing to join your side of this discussion. I don't like Dr. Pepper, either.
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-05 07:09
Another heathen with faulty taste buds!!! :-) :-)
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2013-03-05 09:28
Yes, yes I am! Heathens FTW ;-)
E
# E 2013-03-05 19:28
It's vile stuff isn't it? :-x
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-05 19:34
E and PaintedWolf, you are both clearly out of your minds.

It is the nectar of the Gods, I say. THE NECTAR OF THE GODS!
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-05 19:39
I've heard of the coke wars but wow, this is a whole 'nother thing isn't it?
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-05 19:51
Hey E, don't put your blasphemous words in other people mouths ( with defective taste buds)!! :D
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-05 11:28
I was watching season 1 again as one does during these breaks and it hit me that Meg found Sam before Ruby did, and was wondering why this was. Now I thought Ruby had Lucifer's ear, and seeing as Sam was SO important to Lucifer being his vessel and all, why did he allow the YED to interfere with his most prized possession. Why would Meg have the smarts over Ruby I was wondering? any suggestions out there?
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-05 12:44
kaz1, after I got off on a tangent I realized I probably just needed to write the last paragraph. So feel free to skip the rest.

The way I always saw it was that there were a whole bunch a players of the board. And they all had different info and different goals within the plans. Lucifer wanted certain things set it place before he could be raised. YED knew the ultimate goal was to raise Lucifer. But the first step in the plan was to release the demons (this was the plan Meg was apart of IMO) so that there was an army in place to fight the angels. He was supposed to find the one to set them free and then lead the army.

I'm not sure YED knew that Sam would be Lucifer's vessel as well originally, but I think he began to get that indication when Dean sold his soul to bring Sam back. I think the all the angels who had knowledge of the plan and Lucifer began to see the beauty of it. That this had to be destiny at play. Because Dean ended up breaking the first seal (I believe until that moment they pegged John for the role) and Sam was all set up to break the last. Lucifer definitely and maybe YED realized that this was how it was supposed to be.

(I don't think it's clear if any of the demons knew Dean was also Michael's vessel. Clearly not all of them did because Meg was looking for Michael's sword in 5x1.)

So Lucifer set Ruby (first by appealing to the warrior and seducing him, especially with the idea revenge and saving the world) on Sam killing Lilith and he needed to drink gallons of demons blood to do it, which would send to down a dark path from which the believed he would not recover as well as prepared physically to be Lucifer's vessel.

And I think the pretty well established, Lucifer's vessel, unlike the rest of the angels, wasn't a bloodline thing. Since as far as we know, Nick was no relation to the boys. So I think Lucifer, had the YED corrupt the possible candidates for Lucifers vessel. And the weed out the weak or the ones he couldn't corrupt. And the winner who was strong enough to survive would release the demons, lead the army and then Lucifer assume he would be prepared to take him on as a vessel. That was the generally plan. But when Sam came into play Lucifer and YED to some extent saw another layer.

I think both the angels, including Lucifer, believe heavily in faith and things following this one true path. So when Sam was the last survivor of Azazel kids and Dean sold his soul and could break the first seal. And especially when he found out Dean was Michael vessels, he probably believed everything was aligning just how it was supposed to. Two brother as the vessels of two brothers. IT HAD TO BE SAM. Because it was too perfect not to be. The had to be the path that would lead him to his victory.

I think the angels in charge came to believe it was the one true path as well. They just believed in a different outcome. I don't think the angels were convinced until everything started aligning on such a beautifully symmetric path. But once they were on board they were going to force the path to run its course, even if there might be more malleable options, like Adam. Because they believed things should run as they were fated to, in order to assure a win but also so simply because that was how it was supposed to be.

Same with Lucifer, he had another option as well in Nick(though he would be even more reluctant because he wasn't as strong without true vessel. This might have been a factor with the angels too.)But he didn't really pursue the ultimate battle until he had Sam, because that he what he believed was supposed to happen.

So to answer you question after 50 paragraphs. I think Lucifer doesn't respect or trust the demons so he only gave each of them the info needed to carry out his plan. Also I got the impression that Ruby was one of the demon released from hell when the opened the hell's gate.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-05 13:19
Kelly, you have such a good handle on this and express it on anther level completely. You must be related to Sam as you have a case of the smarts
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-05 13:29
Awwww. That's what comes with spending WAY too many hours watching and analyzing. And I'm sure many people will find flaws anyway.

Just for that I will attach Jared's train story. (actually I can't believe I didn't attach it before) It's a can't miss.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSXpSa6dXYY
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-05 13:43
Although I don't think Lucifer's vessel was necessarily a bloodlne thing, I do think it was a genetic issue. Just like some people carry the gene for say hemophilia, all hemophiliacs aren't related, but having one member of a family carry the gene makes it more likely that it will appear in other family members. What I think Azazel targeted were families with the "archangel vessel gene". Azazel got very little information when he contacted Lucifer after killing the nuns. "Find me a special child," is not a road map, it is a general direction. I always thought that Azazel knew he working to raise Lucifer, knew the approximate time frame for getting Lucifer out and just hit every archangel gene carrier he could find and make deals so that he could give the demon blood to their children to prepare them for Lucifer and probably contaminate them for other archangels. Then he figured he'd pit them against one another and may the best vessel win. Nick was in the wrong age cohort so he didn't get the DB. The rest of the psy kids were potential vessels for an any archangel and Azazel believed that the intended one would win the trials. Crowley's gathering all the prophets to try and get them to read the tablet worked the same way, although unless Kevin was dead, they couldn't take over. IMHO demons think alike. Get all the potential candidates and then weed them out until you get a winner.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-05 14:03
I could see that. That he picked the potential vessels because of something he saw within the mothers. And Nick still being around because he was the wrong age group makes complete sense.

I definitely think he had a "let the best man win approach"-he basically said that, I just wasn't sure if he knew the winner would just open the gates, lead the army and kill Lilith or actually be the vessel as well. I'm really have no issue with either as far as the YED is concerned.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-05 14:10
And fathers. He made a deal with the boy who was being abused and the boy's father died in a farm accident, so it wasn't only girls.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-05 14:12
True.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-05 14:17
Persyowner & Kelly
Grr I keep on getting timed out super grrrrr!!!

It just seems odd that Sam was so perfectly lined up with Dean to be the brothers that were destined to battle on earth (as Kelly says above). Then there must have been a god plan; as Gabriel says "like it is in heaven, so it shall be on earth" or some such. So if there was then how come Lucifer wasn't in on the skinny? Unless he was cast out before.

I am also having problems with tying Naomi in that she is being sold as one of the big dealers in heaven, so why then is she not dealing with Sam and Dean some other easier way? Why is Cas her only option? Also it has already been said that Cas must go to Dean whenever he is being called, and we now know he didn't appear when Dean spoke to him directly. Now surely Naomi has the lowdown on when Dean calls Cas (she always interrupted Cas and called him back to heaven when he was talking to Dean before remember?). So either Naomi has lost control over Cas, or Cas is spying again. All this doesn't make sense anyway coz he prays to Cas in the batcave, which I thought was angel proofed anyway!

I know my thoughts are all over the place, I don't have time to clean it up, so I hope you can read through the clumsy wording and read my thinky thoughts! :-)
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-05 14:22
So far the only reason we know that Naomi is working in/for heaven is because Naomi has told us that she is. Cas said he had never seen the part of heaven that Naomi is in. Naomi can obviously control angel and possibly other memories. She can affect the actions of angels. But the only thing we have that makes her a servant of heaven is her word, and I don't know that we can trust that.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-05 14:28
Very interesting observation Percy, Haven't thought that she might not be a heavenly creature! Opens up many possibilities.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-05 14:30
Hang on didn't Samandriel say something about her? can't remember what though!
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-05 16:32
Here's the conversation
Quote:

SAMANDIRIEL
No. You can't take me back there, Castiel.

CASTIEL
Why not?

SAMANDIRIEL
You don't understand. I told Crowley things – things he shouldn't have known. He got to our coding, our secrets – secrets I didn't even know we had!

CASTIEL
What secrets?

SAMANDIRIEL
Heaven, Naomi.

CASTIEL
No. W-who's Naomi?

SAMANDIRIEL
Who is – listen to me. Listen to me closely. I've been there. I know! They're controlling us, Castiel!
Samandriel also said Crowley cracked his code, which makes him sound more like a machine than a sentient creature. It is possible that Naomi is in Heaven, but we simply don't know enough about her. She can obviously control angelic memories, so what Samandriel believes to be true may not be true.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-05 15:05
I agree percy, I think will have to see how it plays out to see how Naomi fits. She is NOT untrustworthy. And it is only the only proof we have that she is an angel is that she is so powerful.

I agree that there was a plan because everything did end up lining up so perfectly. That it was seen as fate or God's will. But whatever plan the angel were going off of did not come off as God's plan anymore (if it ever was. After all, he even aided the Winchester in their disruption of the plan ). But mostly God seemed to be willing to let it play out and let free will have a hand to choosing the course.

Whereas the angels decided the saw God's will and were going to force into happening. Again I see a lot of players on the board on there side. Someone told the cupid to set up the Winchester and the Campbell. I actually do think this was God, but we actually have never been told for sure. Only that it came from Heaven. But I don't think the cupid knew the end game of that set up. He was only following order.

Same with Castiel. Cas was told to pulled Dean from Hell and that he was the key to stopping the Apocalypse, but IMO he didn't know that Dean was Michael's vessel or Sam was to be Lucifer's vessel or that the Zachariah was trying to release Lucifer by letting the seals get broken. Not until The Rapture episode, which is what he was trying to tell Dean and why he was brought back to hell and "reprimanded".

But different angels had different agendas and different info as well. IMO, almost believe in following the plan and instinctively obeyed, but they interpret the how the are to follow it differently (Zachariah tried to force "God's will), who they are to obey (Uriel seem to bet on Lucifer) and a few fought obeying altogether. Like Lucifer. And to a lesser extent Gabriel.

I believe Gabriel was originally trying to stop the Apocalypse in MS. He was trying to show Sam what being willing to do anything for to keep Dean alive could mean. How that path was a very dark road that would end badly. But Sam didn't learn the lesson instead he just went down the path more quickly than he would have without Gabriel's "lesson". But IMO I don't think that was the trickster's intention.

But by CC, Sam had already let Lucifer out. The end seem near and Gabriel said he just wanted it over with, since it looked like "fate" was going to run it course. He just wanted over sooner rather than later. He fell back in line with the plan. Until he got on Team Free Will in HotG and gave them another option.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-05 14:25
One last thing!!!
With ALL those other hunters out there, WHAT is so important about Sam and Dean now they are no longer vessels? Why is Naomi interested in only Sam and Dean? Why can't some other hunters step in to help Naomi? Are they still the chosen ones?
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-05 15:06
Actually I think that is probably one of the major questions we are supposed to be asking. What does Naomi want with S&D and why them specifically?
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-05 15:07
I agree that (I hope) is one of the questions they want us to ask.
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-05 15:10
Unless it is just because they have the Leviathan tablet? And are the only people aware of the tablets at all (and are denim clad nightmares who shouldn't be underestimated) .
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2013-03-06 02:12
Hi Kelly, that's the way I saw it too. That YED and his special kids was all about finding Luci's vessel. I'm sure he would've known that he needed one once Luficer was sprung from the cage, just that no one knew who it would be, so YED was putting together the best candidates. I've always assumed Luci didn't even know who his true vessel would be until he was on Earth.
The only thing is, I'm not so sure about Lucifer being directly invloved in introducing Ruby. I always thought that plan was solely between Lilith and Ruby. Since Lilith I think always knew she needed to die to spring Lucifer, she intrduced the boys to her spy, Ruby, who would ensure not only that the boys made enough of an enemy of Lilith that they wanted to kill her, but also ensure she would be killed only after the rest of the seals were broken.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2013-03-06 02:21
Kelly, that’s how I figured it worked, too. I always thought that the YED might have known he was looking for Luci’s vessel, just didn’t know who it was, so he was picking out, over a couple of generations, kids that he thought had the potential to be the one.

The only thing is, I always believed Lucifer wasn’t involved in the whole plan with Ruby. I think Lilith always knew she would need to die to spring Lucifer from the cage, but she had to ensure it happened at the right time. So she sent in Ruby, who made sure that the boys made enough of an enemy of Lilith to want to kill her, but also that she would only be killed once the last seal was broken. So she goes in and plants the seed about Sam’s powers, but knows that she can’t let him use them until the righteous man breaks the first seal, so she waited until Dean was in hell before she showed Sam how to use his powers, and continued manipulating him from there, until he finally killed Lilith and released Lucifer.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2013-03-06 02:25
Hi guys, sorry double post, thought I got timed out on the first one.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-05 13:15
ok I am going to digest this which means I have to watch it AGAIN coz you raised some interesting scenarios. I will get back pronto! Just a thought tho. How did YED and Meg get out in the first place. Either forgot or this is not in the story so back to my DVD. Like I said up and down like a whores drawers
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-05 13:20
WHORE'S DRAWERS! I love it!

I don't think it has ever been said how they got out of hell or when. There were demons on earth before the Hell's gate was opened there was just a lot more after.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2013-03-06 02:28
I may be mistaken, but I'm sure at one point Meg indicated that there were, I don't know, places where they could get out, like cracks between Hell and Earth where they can escape that aren't necessarily Hell Gates.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-05 13:26
Am going to see if they address this in the first ep. You have to listen real close coz sometimes even 1 line can make the difference to understanding or missing out on main themes. Meg was the first demon right? Then YED must have been ahead of the game. Lucifer surely knew of him and his plans as he could predict the future?
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-05 14:05
One comment got on there twice so use this to reply to you instead, kaz1. The first demon on the show was the one on the plane. The first demon at all was Lilith. The first will be the last seal.

I don't think he could predict the future. But Lucifer probably gave him a indication of what the child was for and if percysowner is right (which seems likely) an indication of what to look for.
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-05 18:11
Eilf or Kelly or Percysowners, This is so random and just off the top of my head but is there any way the tablet story might be tied to Lucifer? I know we are supposed to think that's done and dusted but is there any chance the the other half of the tablet may say "oh , and if you shut the gates of hell it will pop open the cage, surprise!!". Or do the tablets pre date all the Lucifer drama with God? The only thing that made me even think anything like that is Kaz's question why S&D? Angels would be interested, Crowley has a stake. Just musing, feel free to poke holes.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-05 18:22
First let me say that I really want the Lucifer story to be over and done with. That said, I have thought that closing the Gates of Hell might spring the cage open. It goes along with my "never start a recipe before you read ALL the instructions" view. They don't know what will happen when the Gates of Hell close. They haven't seen the rest of the table. I'm expecting the second half to say something bad will happen when the Gates close i.e. Open the Cage and Let the Apocalypse Begin or Ha, Ha, just kidding, kids don't try this at home, it will kill you.
st50
# st50 2013-03-05 18:30
Quote:
First let me say that I really want the Lucifer story to be over and done with. That said, I have thought that closing the Gates of Hell might spring the cage open. It goes along with my "never start a recipe before you read ALL the instructions" view. They don't know what will happen when the Gates of Hell close. They haven't seen the rest of the table. I'm expecting the second half to say something bad will happen when the Gates close i.e. Open the Cage and Let the Apocalypse Begin or Ha, Ha, just kidding, kids don't try this at home, it will kill you.
I agree with you, percysowner. I don't think trying to close the gates of Hell is a good idea.
I also hope the Lucifer/Apocaly pse story will not be revisited. It was a great plot, but it's done. It would, for me, lessen the impact of the initial 5 season arc.
That said, I would really like the aftermath of that to be acknowledged. Just some indication that the time in the cage and the hallucinations had an effect - on Sam, on Dean. Those experiences should colour how they react to things this season!
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-05 18:37
Thanks Percy!! I not crazy about the idea either but there HAS to be a catch, right :-)
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-05 18:48
Oh, I'm sure there's a catch and I don't think it's as simple as Sam dies. As long as it isn't Sam goes evil, or something is wrong with Sam, or the trials changed Sam into who knows what and you have to save him or kill him, I'll be okay. But I'm kind of expecting another round of "what's wrong with Sam", I'm not encouraged. Can we get round of what's wrong with Dean for once?
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-05 19:38
You might be surprised but that would be fine with me! He hasn't exactly been portrayed as a perfect person this season (or ever really) but if they did a "what's wrong with Dean" sl it could be interesting. After all there is still a few unanswered questions from Purg.
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-05 19:51
Weird stuff keeps happening with this comment box ....

Anyhoo, as I may now have said in random other places: There seems to be a whole lot up with Dean to me. Only for he has returned to overbearing big brother (yeah, ok it IS adorable) with Sam and making lots of jokes I would be asking what could be affecting him - much more so than Sam because apart from the incident-which- shall-remain-na meless (IWSRN) Sam has been pretty much SAM this season.

Dean on the other hand has gotten way too good at killing people and giving drugs to advanced placement students and making thoroughly unreasonable comparisons and not remembering the way events actually happened and befriending monsters/keepin g secrets and eating healthy food and not having sex with lots of women etc.

We should be asking questions of him!
Leah
# Leah 2013-03-05 19:59
"eating healthy food and not having sex with lots of women etc." Oooh eilf careful, you might reignite the bromance thread!! But seriously what is up with all that?
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-05 20:14
Women! I said women!! Do not misunderstand me, universe :-)
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-05 20:49
I think the stuff with Kevin is the most suggestive. There have been many moments with Kevin that Dean has come off pretty harsh to me. I feel like there is something to that. He saw how badly Kevin is doing but gives him pills to keep him up even more? I'm kinda surprised that Kevin doesn't completely go off on him.

He gave him no choice but to continue to be involved. Basically tells him to suck it up, almost immediately after Kevin's girlfriend dies. He all but refused to go check on Kevin's mother until Sam convinced him. Almost killed Mrs. Tran right in front of him. Then gives him pills to keep him from getting the 3 hour he has been getting.

I know he wants the gates closed but this is pretty harsh behavior towards anyone let alone on someone who is at most 19.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-05 21:31
Quote:
Weird stuff keeps happening with this comment box ....
So it wasn't just me. Good to know.

I agree about Dean. While there has been much discussion about why Sam isn't giving Benny a break and how OOC that is, I've noticed that Dean is off as well. His treatment of Kevin, as Kelly said is the most obvious. Sam is telling Kevin the race is a marathon not a sprint and to take it easy and Dean is giving him pills that could harm him, even after Kevin mentions he may have had a small stroke. Dean's willingness to kill Mrs. Tran and complete lack of empathy that Martin was killed by a vampire is odd as well. Dean could say that Benny did what he had to, but still mourn one of the few hunters in season 5 that still believed in Sam and Dean. Even his willingness to rush to judgement with James, a man who had saved his life and Sam's does not seem like Dean. OTOH, he is giving monsters credit for being less destructive than he has in the past.

Then there is the fact that he is almost bipolar about Sam. Initially he is furious that Sam found a normal life when Sam thought he was dead. Then he tells Sam that he will do the trials and when he is dead Sam should go for normal. He shows repressed fury at Sam at the beginning of the season and now everything is hunky dory. There is something different about Dean and yes, part of it is the result of Purgatory, but he is still not quite what he has been. To me Dean's changes are as unexplored as Sam's.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-05 22:25
Quote:
Quote:
Weird stuff keeps happening with this comment box ....
So it wasn't just me. Good to know.

I agree about Dean. While there has been much discussion about why Sam isn't giving Benny a break and how OOC that is, I've noticed that Dean is off as well. His treatment of Kevin, as Kelly said is the most obvious. Sam is telling Kevin the race is a marathon not a sprint and to take it easy and Dean is giving him pills that could harm him, even after Kevin mentions he may have had a small stroke. Dean's willingness to kill Mrs. Tran and complete lack of empathy that Martin was killed by a vampire is odd as well. Dean could say that Benny did what he had to, but still mourn one of the few hunters in season 5 that still believed in Sam and Dean. Even his willingness to rush to judgement with James, a man who had saved his life and Sam's does not seem like Dean. OTOH, he is giving monsters credit for being less destructive than he has in the past.

Then there is the fact that he is almost bipolar about Sam. Initially he is furious that Sam found a normal life when Sam thought he was dead. Then he tells Sam that he will do the trials and when he is dead Sam should go for normal. He shows repressed fury at Sam at the beginning of the season and now everything is hunky dory. There is something different about Dean and yes, part of it is the result of Purgatory, but he is still not quite what he has been. To me Dean's changes are as unexplored as Sam's.
i am in total agreement regarding dean's behaviour and i'm so glad you brought up his bipolar behavior towards sam. i wanted to but i was afraid of the backlash as everyone was so thrilled about the boys 'speeches in trial and error . during dean's speech, i just kept thinking how wackadoodle he sounded. :o

i mean he did a total 360. he spent 8 out of 10 episodes pissed off at sam because he imagined that sam just left dean in purgatory because he wanted to play house with some girl. i can only guess in dean's warped account that sam was living a life of lollipops and candycanes and totally forgot about him.

then he gives sam this speech declaring that normal is exactly what he wants for him....all i kept saying was huh? did i miss the newsletter? not 7 episodes earlier dean was still angry at sam because he thought he was doing that very thing, even though sam wasn't.

i enjoyed sam's speech. it made much more sense to me. but i thought dean's speech was ridiculous, sweet, but ridiculous. i can see if they dealt with that particular issue and then dean came around...sure that makes sense. but since the boys haven't yet talked, then i have to say that dean's sudden change of heart comes out of left field and doesn't make much sense to me. it's just too drastic.

i think dean's behaviour is just as off, if not more off, than sam's...

maybe it has something to do with dean having an evil vampire in his body....i can't imagine that did him any good.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-05 23:06
I loved Dean speech to Sam that actually much more in line with what I thought Dean's attitude would be at Sam having a life outside of hunting. Him being angry at Sam for escaping is actually really OOC when you think about it. I was taking Dean anger as a symptom of PSTD and hurt that Sam didn't look for him. But that doesn't really explain his shifting back and forth.

But you're right. In the first 10 episodes, he was completely obsessed with Sam hunting and then he finds out about the trials and he wants Sam out. Could it be that they are both being manipulated? I mean in one scene he is hugging Kevin and going to buy veggies for him because he's worried about him and the very next scene he giving him pills to keep him up after he stated he might have had a mini stroke. To quote Sesame Street "One of these things is not like the other".

Have I been so pissed off about the Sam storyline that I've completely ignored clues in the writing that something is also up with Dean? It is possible that it is inconsistent characterizatio n (and lets face it -it wouldn't be the first time). But now think about there has been weird things with Dean right from ep 1 too.

Okay I'm getting really really excited about the next episodes. I'm going to be so depressed if it just turns out that there is no reveal. But I still in my hopeful phase so I'm going with REALLY FREAKIN' EXCITED!
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-06 13:33
Quote:
I loved Dean speech to Sam that actually much more in line with what I thought Dean's attitude would be at Sam having a life outside of hunting. Him being angry at Sam for escaping is actually really OOC when you think about it. I was taking Dean anger as a symptom of PSTD and hurt that Sam didn't look for him.
That's one thing we see very differently. I can't remember Dean ever saying he wanted Sam to have the life that Sam wanted. In season one, Dean was angry and hurt in Salvation when Sam said he was going back to college if they killed the thing that killed Jess and Mom. Dean did not want that. In season two the issue didn't come up IIR. At the end of season 3 when Dean was about to die he didn't tell Sam to get a life that would make him happy. He told him to keep on with a life that had killed everyone. From the transcript

Quote:
DEAN
Keep fighting. Take care of my wheels. Sam, remember what Dad taught you... okay?

SAM nods, holding his tears back.

DEAN (cont'd)
And remember what I taught you.


In Criss Angel, Dean shot down any idea that either of them could ever have a normal life or get out of the dangerous, tragic side of hunting in this conversation
Quote:

DEAN Man...hope I die before I get old. Whole thing seems brutal, don't it?

SAM You think we will?

DEAN What?

SAM Die before we get old.

DEAN Haven't we both already?

SAM You know what I mean, Dean. I mean, do you think we'll still be chasing demons when we're 60?

DEAN No, I think we'll be dead...for good. What? You want to end up like -- Like travis? Huh?Or Gordon, maybe?

SAM There's Bobby.

DEAN Oh, yeah, there's a poster child for growing old gracefully.

SAM Maybe we'll be different, Dean.

DEAN What kind of Kool-Aid you drinking, man? Sammy, it ends bloody or sad. That's just the life.

SAM What if we could win?

DEAN "Win"?

SAM If there was a way we could just...put an end to all of it.

DEAN Is there something going on you're not telling me?

SAM No.

DEAN Sammy.

SAM No. Look, I'm just saying...I just wish there was a way we could...go after the source. That's all. Cut the head off the snake.

DEAN Well, the problem with the snake is that it has a thousand heads. Evil bitches just keep piling out of the Volkswagen.
Sadly part of Sam's downfall was that he did what Dean said and remembered what Dad taught him, never give up on revenge. Following Dean's last wishes helped Ruby get an in with Sam because revenge and fighting the good fight WERE Dean's last wishes.

Seasons five six and seven have no inkling that Sam can attain a normal life, so there was no place for Dean to wish it for Sam.

So I found Dean's attitude that he was angry at Sam for getting a normal life to be far more in tune with his previous words and actions. It's nice that he has come around, although less so that he only wants if for Sam AFTER Dean is dead, but it doesn't mesh with his previous stance, IMHO.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-06 23:20
percyowner, I still believe that Dean would want a life a happiness for Sam. He may not have explicitly said it until TaE but in Swap Meat, he talked about a life outside of hunting. I personally am sure he was talking about him and Sam. Even if Sam did shoot down the idea at the time.

In fact I'm positive that every time he talked about a life outside hunting or wanting something more, he was thinking just as much about Sam as he was himself. Nothing else fits the character. Can you honestly see him saying that, well yeah I want to have a life but you need to keep hunting? That goes against everything I know of the character.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-06 00:16
Percyowerner
Quote:
Then there is the fact that he is almost bipolar about Sam. Initially he is furious that Sam found a normal life when Sam thought he was dead. Then he tells Sam that he will do the trials and when he is dead Sam should go for normal. He shows repressed fury at Sam at the beginning of the season and now everything is hunky dory. There is something different about Dean and yes, part of it is the result of Purgatory, but he is still not quite what he has been. To me Dean's changes are as unexplored as Sam's.
..And Nappi
Quote:
i mean he did a total 360. he spent 8 out of 10 episodes pissed off at sam because he imagined that sam just left dean in purgatory because he wanted to play house with some girl. i can only guess in dean's warped account that sam was living a life of lollipops and candycanes and totally forgot about him.
I don't think Dean has ever stopped wanting to protect Sam. I think all the brother angst in the first half of the season was all about his pent up frustration, purgatory effects and serious emotional hurt. However, I see these as different things. It is one thing to be angry at someone, but that doesn't mean you stop loving them. Dean wanting to protect Sam and keep him safe is about the love he has for his brother, and that has never changed. Being angry and pissed off and lashing out, yip we've all done that. Nappi I think Dean has always been a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants kind of man, and he has always been VERY reactionary, so his sudden 'keep you safe' speech, all though out of the blue, isn't entirely out of character for him... Ridiculous? ouch. I agree though that they defo need to talk. So TPTB EVER read this stuff!!
Kelly
Quote:
Okay I'm getting really really excited about the next episodes. I'm going to be so depressed if it just turns out that there is no reveal. But I still in my hopeful phase so I'm going with REALLY FREAKIN' EXCITED!
Me too. These chucking breaks are annoying
Tks SO much for Jared's train incident. It is as though he is relating the story to a good friend; he is that affable. He just seems such a down to earth person doesn't he. Now any more tasty tit-bits. You soo cruel as I have uni work to do arrrgh. but in suuuch a good way :D :P
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-06 00:33
This one is really short - less than two minutes worth of procrastination : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaoGajNnG3M

Oh and this one - and then I am done. You don't see it in this bit but eventually Jensen starts looking for ADHD medicine for Jared from the crowd. I love the point at which Jensen realises he has made a terrible mistake: (ask Sweetondean I bet she REALLY gets this :D ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndUeJh2Krv4
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-06 10:06
Naughty eilf
Feel like the cat that got the cream. Going to have a little youtube "pudding" phwahahah (as in a Hitchcock movie)
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-06 07:27
i guess i should have explained myself a little better. i don't doubt the love these boys have for ea. other whether lashing out or not. that's never been in question.

the speech itself wasn't ridiculous. it would be something dean would say. the timing of the speech was ridiculous to me though. if the boys had talked then the speech would have had more of an impact on me. it would've felt right and true as it would've come after dean had heard sam's pov. then all of his anger/resentmen t would go away because he finally saw the other side.

unfortunately this wasn't the case. dean still has that same issue because he simply just pushed it aside. so the speech to me comes off as peculiar, maybe that's a better word, because dean was angry with sam for a half of a season for believing this is what sam actually had.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-06 10:32
Nappi
Ok I see what you mean. Ridiculous as in too soon after the penny & trial and error fiasco. If u look at earlier seasons, there are also quick Dean turn-arounds (eg Cas & that wozname friend of Sam's Dean killed). I think what is different is the level of emotional destruction they had sunk to. There perhaps needed to be a scene where Dean shows how he got to that 'needing Sam safe' point emotionally. Maybe not sure. I am just so used to brash/action Dean that sometimes you don't question his processes. I think it is unfortunate that the writers keep on using the wording 'keep you safe' all the time. It's beginning to sound cliched (with a little widgey thing at the top of the e :-) ) Dean is about 28 years older now and I am sure there are more mature ways to get his fears and hopes across. Eek where's my helmut :D
E
# E 2013-03-07 07:07
Nappi I agree so much with this. Although I loved Dean's speech I was like "WAH?" Isn't this the guy who not 7 episodes earlier refused to believe when Sam said he hadn't hunted while Dean was gone and that he still wanted out of hunting?

From Heartache:
SAM
Dean, listen, when this is over – when we close up shop on Kevin and the tablet – I'm done. I mean that.

DEAN
No, you don't.

SAM
Dean, the year that I took off, I had something I've never had. A normal life. I mean, I got to see what that felt like. I want that. I had that.

DEAN
I think that's just how you feel right now.

When exactly did Dean change his mind? I don't remember what brought about this change so when he said it in Trial and Error it seemed a little out of the blue. And if Dean is now so kean for Sam to have a normal apple pie life after he's dead, then why was he so mad at Sam for having an apple pie life when Sam thought he was dead at the start of this season? It makes ZERO sense.
mer
# mer 2013-03-07 08:00
Like a previous person commented, I agree that the boys have somewhat lost their sanity. Of course it makes zero sense but instead of trying to grapple with 'why did they say that?', etc I just shake my head and sigh with sadness for them.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-05 19:12
Yeah, I figure that even if they close the gate, there is going to be some catastrophic downside. It supposed it could be something with Lucifer but I kind of doubt it. Although I would like it if there were some clause that spit Adam back out, even if he still dead. But I would at least like him to be in Heaven.

You know maybe it would spit Michael(with Adam) back out without Lucifer someway. That would be a storyline I wouldn't mind revisiting (at least at this moment when I really haven't thought it out). If Michael came back pissed that could be interesting. Maybe it's him instructing Naomi from the cage. After all, Lucifer did a lot from the cage.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-05 21:06
i think closing the gates of hell is a bad idea. i can't help but think that God created heaven and hell for a purpose and the boys shouldn't mess with that.

also i keep going back to death and his speeches to dean about not messing with the natural order. heaven and hell seem to me to be part of the natural order. there's always been a negative consequence.

plus i keep going back to s4. sam and dean both thought that killing lilith would prevent the apocalypse. they were convinced that they had to stop her from breaking all the seals. of course as we all know, she was the final seal and killing her brought about lucifer and almost the apocalypse.

i know the boys have personal reasons for wanting to close the gates of hell, but i think they are open for a purpose in which God intended and they shouldn't mess with it.

as another has mentioned, kevin doesn't have all the facts. he doesn't have the whole tablet...that alone should tell the boys that they're jumping in the water without checking for sharks. :eek:
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-07 07:42
so i was watching a little slice of kevin last night and i began to wonder...why are they showing this particular eppy just before our new one? so i started to pinpoint the elements in this eppy that seem significant.

1. naomi and her ability to manipulate the mind. why is she so concerned with what the winchesters are doing anyway?
2. crowley and the tablets...a given.
3. dean's misperception of the events in purgatory concerning cas.
4. sam pretty much in this entire episode.

dean's misperception seemed quite significant and not only because he saw things how he saw them and not how they were....which is very important concerning sam. but it's what he said to cas that stood out. he told him that he did not leave him down there. which led me to dean and his resentment towards sam and his rant during sc. i said it in an earlier post that every mistake sam had made dean had just made himself. well this seems to add to my opinion. he was angry at sam for leaving him in purgatory, but logically that doesn't make sense. sam thought dean died. but if dean is feeling guilty about leaving cas, then i can see where he would transfer those feelings onto sam. i also noticed that after dean realized the truth about cas, dean stopped making digs at sam.

the most important thing i noticed was sam's behaviour. sam told dean, when dean asked why he was feeling the way he was about cas that it was suvivors' guilt. he also told dean he had to move past it.

add this conversation to all the other things that i've been asking myself about sam.

so in this conversation, it's obvious that sam believed dean to be dead. it also indicates sam speaking from experience concerning surviving and reluctantly having to move on.

sam doesn't really move on though. it's like consciously he knows he has to but unconsciously he knows he shouldn't, he can't. that again explains his larping with amelia.

it also explains that conversation in heartache when he basically told dean he would be better off without him. i believe sam was feeling like a failure in that he couldn't save dean so why hunt? what would it matter to anyone? if he can't save his own brother what hope does anyone else have? i asked myself was the conversation in heartache about guilt or was it about sam knowing subconsiously that he made a deal to do these trials and he could die so he was telling dean he was the warrior who should hunt alone.

add this conversation to all the other inconsistencies regarding sam: the reverse exorcism, knowing the kid was hardwired for the curse, his vacillating on whether he believed dean dead, his doomed affiliation with amelia, the person watching sam, the timing of dean and don, and sam's so called frequent visits to rufus' cabin. i think i read an interview where it was stated that sam had gone to rufus's cabin often...why would he need to do that? if he needed to be by himself, get away from amelia, then why drive two or three states over to do it? why not just go to another motel or the next town over? if it was to be closer to dean, again i ask what for? sam didn't need rufus' cabin to feel close to dean. he didn't need anything...but if sam did want to feel close to dean, all he had to do was sit in the car. just all of it., the entire first half of the season.

i happen to think sam has all along been showing signs of subconscious memory...
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-12 20:54
i have a question i was hoping one of you guys can answer for me. this has nothing to do with remember the titans...but this is the most recent let's speculate post so i though i'd ask it here.

now just so you know i'm not trying to beat a dead horse or anything...it's just a question that 's been niggling at the back of my head all day. i would look it up myself except i really can't. i'm in ny and when supernatural started, we didn't have the cw back yet. cable took it away...we only got it back around blood brother, so i don't have recorded the first five episodes...i had to watch online.

anyhoo, here's my question...

did sam verbally admit to dean that he didn't look for him? did he actually say the words in any episode? or did dean ask if sam looked and sam remained silent neither confirming or denying that he didn't look?

i think it's very significant if it's the latter.

i'm of the belief that sam did look but couldn't find dean thus convincing himself that dean was dead and perhaps even believing it, at the time.

there was a moment in sc during dean's infamous rant where i believe that sam was about to say something to dean but then garth stepped in and told sam it wasn't really dean talking and sam lost the momentum. sam then never really got it back either.

i really thought at that moment sam was going to admit that he did try to find dean but couldn't. but once that momentum was gone when garth showed up, sam never really said anything....jus t the comment about dean not needing a coin to say what he said, but i always felt sam said that out of hurt but also out of believing dean was right.

you know when someone says something hurtful and then you kind of think about it over and over....well i kind of think that's what sam did.

you see i think sam sees not saving dean yet again as a failure...and when dean said that benny was the only one who didn't let him down, i think sam believed it. so he kept his confession to himself...becau se knowing sam as i feel i do, i think sam would rather deal with dean's anger and resentment then his disappointment.

personally , i think sam is wrong and dean wouldn't see it as sam letting him down yet again for not saving him, but after what dean said about benny and how sam looks at himself, i think he believes that of himself so of course dean would too.

anyway just throwing that out there...again if anyone knows the answer, i would really appreciate your help. :-)
E
# E 2013-03-12 22:41
Hi nappi; here's the transcript:

DEAN
No. You, Sam. You quit?

SAM
Yeah. Yeah, I – you were gone... Dean. Cas was gone, Bobby was dead. I mean, Crowley even shipped off Kevin and Meg to parts unknown.

DEAN
So you just turned tail on the family business.

SAM
Nothing says "family" quite like the whole family being dead.

DEAN
I wasn't dead. [He stands up and walks around SAM.] In fact, I was knee-deep in God's armpit killing monsters, which, I thought, is what we actually do.

SAM
Yes, Dean. And far as I knew, what we do is the thing that got every single member of my family killed. I had no one – no one. And for the first time in my life, I was completely alone. And, honestly, I-I didn't exactly have a roadmap. So, yeah, I-I fixed up the Impala, and I just... drove.

DEAN
After you looked for me. [SAM says nothing.] Did you look for me, Sam? [SAM looks away.] Good. That's good. Now, we – we... always told each other not to look for each other. That's smart. Good for you. Of course, we always ignored that because of our deep, abiding love for each another, but not this time, right, Sammy?

SAM
Look, I'm still the same guy, Dean.

DEAN
Well, bully for you. I'm not.

DEAN walks away and we hear the door close.

SAM
Welcome back.


It's a little confusing. Sam makes several comments in the first ep about thinking Dean was dead, but when asked directly he does not answer. Dean takes Sam's silence as an answer, and so far, we've had nothing to refute Dean's take on things.

I thought it was significant too that Sam didn't actually answer the question, but until/unless they clear this point up, I guess my speculation will have to twist in the wind.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-13 00:04
As much as I agree that the original conversation was ambiguous, in Southern Comfort Sam says

Quote:
I told you from the jump where I was coming from, why I didn't look for you
So although the writers couldn't be bothered to let US in on that complete conversation, Sam has said he told Dean why he didn't look for him, so I guess he didn't. I hate it more than I can possibly say, mostly because they hid that conversation from us, so although Dean may know, I don't feel like I know.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-13 01:48
Percyowner
I put it down to mysterious Sam again. We have to be content with with the fact that his not looking was put down to Sam's entire family being dead. But this still doesn't answer why he thought Dean was dead. That defo hasn't been answered.. "you were gone" could be interpreted any way possible.

I have watched their conversation 8x1 over and over again. There has been so much speculation on this site whether Sam verbally acknowledged not looking for Dean. But that is not what intrigues me most ... for me it was the lack of emotional connection along with the sentence "Dean I know its you" that does.

I am going to stay positive and hope that what Alice says is correct. They may come back to this much later on in the series, so here's hoping they do.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-13 02:16
Quote:
But that is not what intrigues me most ... for me it was the lack of emotional connection along with the sentence "Dean I know its you" that does.
Throw in the reverse exorcism from episode 2 for me. All of that doesn't really hang with "I thought you were dead and I didn't hunt", because really? No testing of Dean whatsoever? And a reverse exorcism that we had never seen before (or since to be honest)?

If they are going to get back to this, I really need it to happen this season, because I don't want the last scene of the show to be Dean finding what Sam did after he disappeared. That's too much for me, personally to take.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-13 02:42
What are the chances they have Sam being manipulated by Naomi too? I guess we are defo going to have to get a helmet on this one. I will be devastated if he is being manipulated by Naomi/Crowley. You mentioned that we musn't take it for granted that Naomi is an angel as we only have her word on this. What is your take?
E
# E 2013-03-13 09:26
I would be sooooo happy to find out it's Naomi...it would explain a lot of strange things Sam has said/done this season and would absolve him of "Sin number 1," not looking. If Cas can get a pass for all the things he is doing this season by being manipulated, then they owe Sam that same type of absolution IMHO. Then the three of them can get together and turn their attention to her.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-13 09:51
E
I hear you, but can you actually stand another storyline with no autonomy for Sam. I was hoping this season was going to be about growth for the brothers.

It would make sense though! So many fans are resigned to the fact that the unanswered questions will in all probability remain so. I like what Alice says though sometimes they address gaps in the story seasons later. I was just thinking that Carver knows he has season 9 so maybe we are going to have to be patient. But I agree with Percy Quote:
I don't want the last scene of the show to be Dean finding what Sam did after he disappeared. That's too much for me, personally to take.
E
# E 2013-03-13 10:41
I see where you are coming from kaz1 and I want Sam to control his own life too. I just DON'T want Sam's first "autonomous" act in pretty much his whole life to be not looking for Dean....just an emphatic and resounding "NO" to that. So, as much as I want Sam to control his own destiny for a change, in this case, I want him to have been manipulated against his will and for Dean to learn about it and forgive him, and I mean REALLY forgive him, not this "oh yeah, sure, I forgive you with my words, but I reserve the right to bring it back up again later to burn you with it if you piss me off," type of forgiveness that we've been seeing from him this season (also OOC IMO).

I said this on another thread, but what if Sam isn't getting sick because of the trials but it getting sick because of Naomi's manipulation or a subconscious fight against that manipulation? Wouldn't that be a fun twist to have the bro's think that they are fighting one thing only to find out that they are really fighting another?
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-13 12:49
I see Sam's first autonomous action as his decision to go to college. He made a controversial choice (for his family) and carried it out, knowing it would upset John/Dean.

That said, I agree that none of Sam's actions should include giving up on Dean w/o even first investigating his disappearance! That's just a major FAIL all around!
E
# E 2013-03-13 16:12
:o That's true about college....I'd forgotten about that. So, it was his first fully autonomous action since the series started perhaps.

I guess its just that I hate the implication that when Sam was finally free of supernatural influences and demons and angels messing with his life that what he chose to do was nothing. There has just not been enough evidence that doing nothing was the logical or even inevitable choice that Sam had before him. It's a major, total, unequivocal fail for me. Not only does it not make sense in terms of what we know about Sam Winchester as a character, but it doesn't make sense dramatically either. I mean, I am assuming that the writers have all been to school to learn their craft; well, what they did with this story doesn't even follow the basic tenets of basic dramatic construction alla Edward Mably. Isn't he required reading for all writers of drama anymore? Geez, even I am familiar with it, and I studied music!
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-13 16:37
My first reaction was that going to college was Sam's first autonomous act as well. But thinking about it, I would also consider letting Amy go as a child to be autonomous. He went against the family code and followed his morality, not John's. There was no indication that demons were involved in any way in his decision. So I can put that on the autonomous end of the decision scale.

I so desperately want an explanation for Sam's not looking for Dean and currently, Naomi influencing him seems like the best way to resolve the issue. It's sad because I really wish they had gone with a mental breakdown. It would have been especially effective when Martin was brought back, because Dean's immediate and obvious contempt toward Martin for having DARED to be mentally ill would make it very hard for Sam to discuss what happened after Dean disappeared and would make Sam feel that Dean would NEVER trust him again because he had been weak in the same way Martin was. THAT would have been a great HUMAN story for Sam and provided realistic conflict between Sam and Dean over Dean's prejudices and views of the mentally ill. It would have also provided a basis for Sam using Martin to track Benny, especially if he had been committed to the same institution. But they decided that "romance" was a better way to go for a "human" story for Sam. Oh Sigh!
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-13 17:31
Kaz, I agree completely with you about the disconnect feel from Sam and the "Dean I know it's you" plus the curious addition of "Dean can I just say hi" (probably not an exact quote). Those things have bothered me from the start. Very odd. He did show a modicum of surprise but he didn't seem gobsmacked (borrowed that from someone here) about finding Dean there.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-13 20:22
I chop it up to bad direction of a bad script in a bad story. Haha :-)
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-13 21:28
The optimist (85%) in me hopes this will all be explained while the pessimist (15%) is afraid it won't and that you might be right. :-|
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-13 10:55
I have trouble keeping in mind that the 'not looking for Dean part' happened in S8. I unconsciously lump it into S7, probably to prevent it from tainting. There is a literary term for passing time which is not accounted for in the storyline. I forget!

Quote:
what if Sam isn't getting sick because of the trials but it getting sick because of Naomi's manipulation or a subconscious fight against that manipulation? Wouldn't that be a fun twist to have the bro's think that they are fighting one thing only to find out that they are really fighting another?
E you are wicked but it would make a good twist...mmm the tablet AND Naomi effect! Would make Ruby look like heaven's most adorable angel. Percy said earlier that Naomi may not be a heavenly invention, what is your take?
E
# E 2013-03-13 16:52
Hi kaz! Yeah, the "not looking" thing has the sloppy, nonsensical feel of some of the season 7 stuff doesn't it. Since LARP it has seemed like a different season altogether... well except for the dog episode. ( :-x )

I'd love for there to be a big twist in the the closing the gates of hell story. I have thought since it was introduced that maybe closing the gates isn't the boon that the boys think it is, and they are actually being duped or manipulated to keep it from happening. I can't think of anything that would piss Dean off more than finding out he's being messed with again. I am not convinced that Naomi is demonic, I think she's angelic, but that for some reason that we don't know about that she and the other angels DON'T want the gates of hell closed. She could be working with Crowley too... "adversity makes strange bedfellows" and all that. What better way to make sure the gates stay open then to weaken Sam so he can't complete the trials? Maybe the now infamous "Sam doesn't look for Dean" issue was manipulated by the angels as well to try and keep the boys apart and/or not working well together? And since some of that seems to be resolved now, they are going to inflict illness on Sam to make him too weak to complete the trials??? I am speculating like a speculating fool here.. and it probably won't be headed in this direction, but I can't help but return to the concept of 'perception.' Maybe the boys aren't the only ones being messed with.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-13 14:23
thank you so much for your help. i really appreciate it.

so here's what i'm thinking: it's been pretty obvious to me that the writing this season has been deliberately ambiguous. which in my opinion means that when it is revealed that sam did look(which is my guess at this point) we can all go back on rewatch and see where all the inconsistencies were, what all the clues were, and we can see that it was well planned all along, and not just a retcon where it doesn't make sense.

as you all know already, we've pretty much noticed the same inconsistencies regarding sam.

1. sam not verbally commiting to dean that he didn't look in the first ep..and in regards to sc, did sam make that comment before or after the penny rant? not that it matters imo, because sam could've simply made that statement at the time to avoid the arguing with dean. if sam said it after the rant, then he simply could've been trying to explain to dean his reasoning after being hurt by dean's speech. (even if that reason wasn't real but imagined)
2. sam's knowledge of the reverse exorcism ( this is a big one imo)
3. mystery figure outside sam's window
4. sam's knowledge of how he knew the kid was hardwired for the curse, how he knew about the secret tryst on the mt. between artemis and prometheus as it wasn't in any of the books and the use of the term "hardwired" when referring to samandrial and the kid.
5. naomi's ability to manipulate thoughts

but there's more....

the last two episodes that have been chosen to be aired before next week's return.

1. a little slice of kevin----significance
a. naomi and mind manipulation
b. sam's behaviour
c. dean's misguided perception ...this is the eppy where he comes to understand that what he thought happened with cas in purgatory wasn't what happened...agai n a case of dean seeing what he wants to see instead of what is...(sam anyone?)

now this week is hunteri heroici. i believe the significance in that one is sam's coming to terms with reality. from this episode, i concluded that sam came to understand he couldn't run from his life and his reality any longer. that is why he left amelia, and did so before dean returned. where did sam go? he went to rufus' cabin. why?

the endless optimist that i am chooses to believe that sam went there because his reality of what he was running from, which was convincing himself and believing that dean died, was no longer working, that's why i think sam is so disconnected in all the fbs with amelia. if as i've stated above that sam did try to look but failed, then the next logical step i can see sam taking is to convince himself that dean is simply dead. so he stops looking. he's grieving and distracted and he drives around aimlessly and hits a dog. falling into normal was quite by accident. but i think the normal aided him in believing that dean died. you say it out often enough, you tell other people, you start to believe it's true yourself. you start living mundane and it gets easier to believe your own lie. you focus on someone else who's as lost and needy as you are, you start to believe you can save them, that maybe you won't fail them.

i think it sort of worked for awhile, but for whatever reasons, i believe reality was starting to sink in for sam. being with amelia wasn't working anymore and he had to leave. so he heads for the one place where he can go to try to figure things out. maybe even to start the search again, reality starting crashing in on him and he couldn't pretend any longer.

you know we never really got a chance to see what sam was going to do once he returned to the cabin. it's just as likely that he would've started hitting the books again. but dean was there and he was surprised and confused and relieved all at once. but then one thing led to another and all of a sudden sam finds himself unable to look dean in the eye when dean asks if he looked.

you see, it's always been my belief that sam would rather deal with dean's wrath then have dean be disappointed in him. i feel in sam's mind, he failed dean yet again. i think that how he thinks dean sees it as well, although i don't believe that to be the case.

i've posted this above that i thought there was a moment in sc where sam was about to say something to dean after his speech but garth stepped in and the moment was gone. i still feel that sam didn't say anything to defend himself because he probably felt dean was right. sam did say that dean didn't need a coin to say those things, so i can only guess that in sam's head he knew dean was right. i always felt like sam felt that he was a failure to his brother therefore, admitting that he did look but failed to find him so he basically surrendered, was not at option for sam. especially given dean told sam benny was the only one who never let him down.

not telling dean is both self punishment and self preservation if you ask me. keeping silent and reaping dean's wrath is a way for sam to punish himself for failing dean. sam keeping silent prevents him from seeing the disappointment in his brother's eyes of yet again failing to save him.

that's my story and i'm sticking with it....
E
# E 2013-03-13 16:39
Nappi, I like this interpretation, it makes sense. But I'd still like to see something in the writing and on the screen that reflects this. Like you, I have always felt that there was something more going on, and that there maybe a big (or even medium sized) reveal coming along. I was soooo sure of this earlier in the season because of all of those strange things that you mentioned in your post, particularly the reverse exorcism and the "hardwired" comment. There were two more moments that really struck me from the first episode as well. One was when Kevin revealed that there was another tablet besides the Leviathan tablet that we knew about. When he found out Sam asked, "well, does this tablet have a name?" which at the time I thought was the most bizarre question. Why on earth would he ask something like that? Then secondly, Sam seemed REALLY interested in where Kevin had the tablet hidden and seemed ready to push on this until Dean shut him down by saying "Hey, as long as it's safe," at which point Sam drops asking about it. At the time, I found Sam's comments and intense interest in the tablet and it's whereabouts very curious and possibly indicative of an underlying plot line that had yet to be revealed.

Now, episodes later, my belief in a reveal for Sam has been significantly weakened. I STILL believe, but maybe it's more hope than faith at this point. :sad:
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-13 20:24
hi E,

i think you have a very good point as well and your theory isn't far off the realm of possibility.

let's say this:

during s7, while cas was busy being God and then busy dying, the angels knew about kevin and the levi tablet, which stands to reason that someone up there, say naomi, knew there was also an angel tablet...at the most she could assume that to be the case. so the tablet stuff in heaven could logically have started in s7.

so dean vanishes in a blast of dick and sam is left pretty much in a state of shock. so let's assume sam started to freak out a bit and starts heading back to the cabin to figure out what the hell just happened to his brother. let's say he starts going through the books, meets up with demons, possibly learning a few tricks along the way, like say a reverse exorcism.

now let's figure naomi is up in heaven on the tablet trail, but let's say sam, while trying to find dean is coming dangerously close to learning that there are other tablets. so naomi decided sam had to be removed from the picture, so she has a little one on one with sam, doing a mind whammy, convincing him that his brother is dead. by the time she's gone, sam now has it in his head that his brother is died in that blast, so he goes through all the motions he normally would.....like imploding and running and possibly being so upset, he hits a dog. cue in sam/amelia debacle ..yada yada yada.....what i posted about sam realizing that being with amelia, all the running and pretending he was doing wasn't right could be due to his subconscious being at work. but just to make sure, dear dead don is resurrected from who knows where and dean conveniently makes his escape from purgatory.

bear with me,....let's say there's another player who doesn't want naomi to get to the angel tablets. so it's sort of a race now. let's say this other player is another angel, who is trying to protect the tablets. so this angel leaks info to benny on how to get out of purgatory and brings dear dead don back just for good measure, to give sam that little extra prodding.

naomi is freaked out in a little slice of kevin and demands that cas tell her what the winchesters are up to and then follows with telling cas that he's to spy on the winchesters progress and report back to her.

there you have it...the boys yet again being manipulated by the higher powers.

that's a story i can dig my teeth into....and it makes all the inconsistencies of the first half of the season make sense.

e, just remember, in s4....dean didn't find out that lilith was the seal until the finale. there is still time left. ;-)
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-13 20:50
Wow nappi, I really like how your mind works. I hope your scenarios turn out to be true, or even just some of them. If the season winds down without any big reveals then they should hire you as a consultant to the writing staff!! :lol:
E
# E 2013-03-13 20:56
I love it! It makes sense, its dramatic....yes something like this would be brilliant. Maybe the new mystery character that's been spoiled recently could be that "other player" you mentioned. I'd be over the moon about something like this! Quite honestly though I'd be pretty happy with any development that made dramatic sense and showed Sam in a better light at this point. Lets hope for brilliant. I wasn't a part of online fandom until season 6 and I don't remember waiting for stories to play out in the show in earlier seasons being this excruciating. Maybe I've forgotten or maybe this site keeps the show so current in my life that I seem to always be preoccupied by the possibilities. If the payoff for this current set of issues isn't resolved until season nine or even ten, I may just go insane. :roll:
Ale
# Ale 2013-03-14 10:18
Wow, I just LOVED your story! Kudos to you! I hope you're right, except the mind control thing. Naomi can convince Sam Dean died without messing with his brain (please, enough of that for Sam). Just throw some false evidence around.
Ale
# Ale 2013-03-14 10:20
I like it so much I want to put an 'spoiler alert' in your post. :-)
racestaffer unlogged
# racestaffer unlogged 2013-03-14 10:47
Ooooh {said race with a note of concern}

I'm really excited to finally find folks who can also see the signs that something beyond the apparent is going on! My ideas are a bit different than what I'm seeing here, but that's neither here nor there. All I want to add right now is, try not to forget the trap many Dean-girls fell into at the end of Season 5. They loved the idea of Dean as the "Michaelsword" soooo much they grabbed onto it like it was a sure thing then later claimed they were lied to when they didn't get the payoff they anticipated. I didn't have a problem with Dean telling Michael to kiss off, so to speak. It was Dean... it was about being "tainted" (from Dean's perspective) by a supernatural force... and it had the potential of putting him in a position where he'd feel himself killing Sam (Lucifer) and not have the control necessary to stop himself (a la the Cate Blanchette painting). It was quite easy for me to accept that Dean's storyline would go the way it did. But then I hadn't fallen in love early (or ever) with the image in my head of JA heroically wielding a sword.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-13 21:32
i read the spoiler and i know who the new mystery character is. 8)



so did anyone else notice that hunteri heroici and a little slice of kevin both have naomi in it and they both dealt with a warped reality...

reality and mind manipulation seem to be a common theme this season. :-*

hunteri heroici:

the whole episode screams something is up....


just the conversation bet. the father and sam alone....the father basically told sam he was running from his reality and he and amelia were just holding on to ea., other to avoid it. i did like her dad. :D

and then dean saying that fred was living in a dream world, then sam flashes back and her father says the same thing.

i think it was the visit with the father that triggered sam's subconscious.

and just listen to sam talking to fred....

i felt like this whole episode was a hint/clue

cas was forbidden in heaven by naomi....curiou s no?
the father....he spent the whole episode trying to make sam see that he was living in a dream world and then the call about don being alive comes in while he's there...really, another coincidence?

maybe i've watched the xf for too long, but something just ain't right.




anyone else's spidey senses tingling regarding that these were the two episodes they opted to rerun before our new eppy next week.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-14 01:50
Nappi
Off I go to watch Hunteri Heroici :-) paying special attention to mind manipulation.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-14 07:29
hey kaz,

when you do watch, pay close attention to the scenes with the father. after it was over, i kind of felt like the father may not have been the father...or at least let's just say i felt like the father wasn't alone in there....it seemed like every word he said was scripted...beca use it's every word sam needed to hear.....and when the call came about don, it's almost as though he knew it was coming when he asked hun what is it....i felt like he was waiting for the call to come...

the whole episode seemed very surreal to me. i could be paranoid, but then again.... :-*

anyway if i can help anyone feel better along side myself, it's my pleasure.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-14 04:21
nappi, you are once again filling me with hope for the rest of the season. I may have to put you on retainer as a psychologist (I know psychologist don't have retainer but you know what I mean). Or perhaps I should just work on becoming less invested in 2 unbelievably hot but fictional brothers. ............... ............. Nay.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-14 15:17
Percy
Which ep had the scene where Sam performs a reverse exorcism?
Tks
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-14 15:50
Kaz1, I believe it was the 2nd episode!
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-15 00:52
Tks Lala :-)