WARNING!  If you haven't seen "Hunteri Heroici," read no further!  There will be discussion and spoilers and all that, and you really want to watch this episode for yourself to get the full effect of the hilarity!  Come back when you've watched!

So, was that fun or was that fun?  Because for me, it was pretty damn awesome.  I liked that episode a lot.  So, yes, this review is probably gonna be a love fest.  BUT!  Never fear, for I have some Questions (with a capital Q) that need answering!  And some other things to discuss.  But first off, the thing that's on my mind right now is...

The CIAngels
They don't want Cass in heaven, unless Naomi calls him up there to report.  But why?  Why don't they want him being seen in heaven?  It's obvious that some angels know Castiel is out of Purgatory because they went and got him.  I think that the CIAngels are the ones who rescued Cass, and that the other angels left in heaven don't know about the CIAngels.  Castiel was in charge of heaven for a time and didn't know about them.  The CIAngels don't want it known that Castiel is out because the rest of the angels in heaven will be pissed about it, and it will blow the CIAngel cover.

The only other angel we've seen this season has been Samandriel, and he was asking about Castiel.  The next time we see him, he's been captured and is being tortured by Crowley.  Did the CIAngels catch wind of Samandriel's questions and hand him over to Crowley?  Naomi does seem to find it imperative that she's the only angel who speaks to Castiel right now.  She needs to control him.

My Sam Theory
As many of you probably know, since I posted a link in the news section on Monday, Clarissa from TVOvermind.com and I wrote a theories and speculation article about what we think is going on this season.  If you haven't read it and want to, you can find it here.  That was before the episode aired, but I think my theory about Sam still holds true, and I'll explain why.  For those of you who didn't read that article, I'll cover my theory now.  For those of you that did, you can skip the next paragraph, if you want.

I think that after Dean and everyone else disappeared, Sam had a mental breakdown of some sort.  He ran, just like he said he did.  He reached his breaking point and just couldn't handle it anymore.  His mind shut down, and he ran.  Then he hit a dog and met Amelia.  I think those two did bond for a bit, and that they slept together.  But I think that when she kicked Sam out the next morning, that the real-life relationship ended there.  They had one night, and that's it.  But Sam needed something to hold onto, so he created a relationship with Amelia.  Everything that happened after their one night is fake, created by Sam as a coping mechanism.  And I think tonight's episode fits with this theory.

Amelia's dad is a manifestation of Sam's self-doubt, spewing all the things Sam feels about himself: that he's a mess, that he's not worthy of Amelia, that he's not good enough in so many ways.  But then a begrudging acceptance of himself, flaws and all.  And then he opens up and is actually honest with himself, lets himself admit that he ran after Dean died to someone other than sypathetic Amelia construct.  He starts to forgive himself for it, to accept it.  Which is why his brain immediately sabotages the situation by creating Don's fake return.  Like he said in his speech to Fred, he was trying so hard to hold on to that dream world that it ended up falling apart on him.  And I believe that for Sam, the dream world was a LITERAL dream, not a figurative one where it's like, "oh, in my dream world, the sun shines all the time and ice cream doesn't go straight to my hips and kitty cats and rainbows and every inch of the world has free high-speed WiFi."  Dean coming back was the punch in the gut to wake Sam from his dream world, the one his brain made up to help him cope, much like Fred Jones made up his cartoon world to help him cope.

Okay, it's time to bullet point the rest of the episode.  Shall we?
  • Cass as a hunter was just precious.  He was trying so hard, bless him.  He got some of the best lines of the episode, too.
  • TALKING CAT!!!!!!!
  • The cartoon physics and rules were just great.  It was just enough to be awesome but not too much.
  • There was a great balance of humor and tragedy in this episode.  I mean, Fred's story was so sad.  And Castiel being suicidal...man, that was heartbreaking.
  • It was great to see Castiel find some peace at the end of the episode, though.  He realized that helping people didn't have to mean hunting.  It could just be sitting quietly with them, even if they didn't really know you were there.  It reminded me a lot of Cass' heaven, actually, watching the autistic man fly a kite.
  • "There was a pastry mishap.  The frosting reached near supersonic speed."  Anyone else think the cake wasn't the only thing that exploded at first?
  • Sam's facial expression "bemused reaction to Cass and Dean antics" is getting quite the workout lately.
  • The fight between Dean and the creepy doctor was epic!
  • "What's up, Doc?"  "That's all, folks."
  • How great were the VFX tonight, especially in Fred's head?  That was cool.
  • CASS TRIED TO CRACK THE TALKING CAT!!!!!!
  • Aw, Cass was gonna get to ride shotgun because he "done good."  That's so adorable.  Also hilarious was Sam totally hipchecking him out of the way.
  • Don's alive!  Didn't see that one coming.  How do you think this is going to play out?
I could go on and on, but I think I'm going to stop now and open the floor to comments.  Remember, this is a free zone for commenting, but please be respectful of each other.  Free zone doesn't mean license to be mean, and we will be editing comments that are out of line and not in accordance with our commenting policy.  Thanks!

Comments  

Lisa0
# Lisa0 2012-11-29 01:59
Biggest question how did Sam know Dean was back.
I can't get out my mind in episode 1 this season when Dean was doing the test, with the salt, cutting of the knife, holy water in all. Sam said he knew it was him.
How was he so sure and how did Sam get back in contact with Martin for the next episode?

I'm all over the place right now.lol

I will say Sam not looking for Dean better be something influenced it or he cracked the F up. I never thought in a million years a sane Sam would do that.
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-11-29 12:18
I know??!! I also want to know why sane Sam didn't erect a gravestone or SOMETHING to remember Dean. Why didn't he go after Kevin. Methinks I smell a redherring somewhere close.

Also to throw into the ether. I think Dean is going to be killed (eventually) by Amy's son. Who else agrees with that?
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-29 12:33
I think they are quietly going to try and forget that Amy ever existed. The writers brought it in for Benny, but the only other example was Ruby and if they want to keep Benny ambiguous, then Ruby is not the way to go. If the do pursue the fallout of the Amy story, then I would want the boy to try and kill Dean and get Sam instead, or maybe even kill Sam because he knows it will hurt Dean the way his mother's death hurt him. In many ways I would like what Dean did to come back and bite him, simply because he did to another child what was done to him. Realistically, the Amy story was not exactly beloved and I'm not sure any fan wants to have to remember it again.
rmoats8621
# rmoats8621 2012-11-29 02:09
Great article. I agree with some of the things that you speculate about Sam, but I don't think he's dreaming. I believe that he just responded as any other person given his background would after last year's events. He perceived that Dean was dead and he just couldn't take the life/job anymore. So he quit and hit the road...driving where ever the road took him with no course or direction. He met Amelia by chance when he hit the dog and she helped him come to grips with his personal loss and demons. He did the same for her. Now that Don has been found to actually be alive, Sam would bow out of his relationship with Amelia. He's a gentleman after all and not a home wrecker. I believe Don was who we saw in the opening scene watching Sam drive off to eventually meet up with Dean at Rufus' cabin.

Anyway, I loved tonight's episode. I loved having the old Cas back. The talking cat was priceless! Mike Farrell was a great addition to the cast. It was nice to see the boys speak fondly of their father and not have that "sour lemon" look on their face when his name is mentioned. I hope to keep seeing their contacts in the hunting world expand.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2012-11-29 04:04
HOPE WE ARE NOT BEING BAMBOOZELED. THAT WOULD HURT TO MUCH. I THINK ALOT LIKE YOU DO.

NOW I KNOW WHY SAM LEFT IN THE FIRST EPISODE, IT IS ONLY RIGHT. IF IT IS MEANT TO BE, SHE WILL BE BACK.
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-11-29 12:27
I can understand why u say this. However, I just feel that it doesn't make any sense. Sam had seen Dean disappear many times before with Cass, why would he think he was dead? why wouldn't Sam think Cass had zapped them somewhere safe? Also Sam not looking for Kevin, completely OOC. I think the writers are deliberately holding back for a big reveal later. The only thing that makes sense is that Sam has some knowledge and he feels Dean & Kevin are safer away from him for some reason. There is a reason why the viewers are being introduced to whatserface and her father. Methinks they are some lowlifes manilpulating Sam. Remember it's all about perceptioin.
Mieke T
# Mieke T 2012-11-29 02:14
Thanks Ardeo for staying up and writing your great spec. I am afraid that none of it is a manifestation but rather just a very clunky and obvious metaphor. They have been hitting us rather heavily with those all season long, not unlike those anvils tonight.

Not warming up to Amelia at all. The writing in those scenes is soapy and the acting is stiff. I was not surprised by Don's return because it is so obviously supposed to be mirroring Dean coming back. Even the choice of name for this character, Don, is so not subtle. Someone on Twitter just said that there's all of a sudden a lot of Nicholas Sparks in their SPN and I must agree.

I hold out less and less hope that there is more going on than meets the eye, but recent cast interviews and now this episode make me fear there is not. Perhaps only some involvement from the angels in bringing Don (and perhaps even Dean) back from presumed death. That would at least add some much needed layers. I read that Jeremy Carver is about to post some interviews on a CW website, I am not sure if I am brave enough to read those at this point. But maybe I am wrong and we are being bamboozled all together and some amazing plot twist is yet to come. I sure hope so.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-29 09:15
If this is the story and there's nothing more to it, I think it will be a great disservice to Sam b/c Carver hasn't bothered to put us in Sam's headspace! Everyone is jsut assuming things about Sam as usual instead of being told what he's thinking or shown how he dealt w/things. We're going into the mid-season break, and I'm still not clear on why Sam thought Dean was dead or what he did the moment Crowlely vanished. IMO, that's ridiculous. Last I checked, Sam is a main character, and his story should have some meaning at this point. Am I to assume that Sam just called a tow for the Impala, ditched his cell phones, got the car fixed, and then just drove around aimlessly until he hit a dog? On this show? That's what Sam did?

Even in Sam's FBs, we're not getting any substantive dialogue re: his thoughts, feelings. "I lost my brother . . . so I ran." Okay. What does that mean? Lost him to death, Purgatory, what? What are you talking about, Sam? How can you know you lost Dean unless you investigated? Since when does a disappearance on this show equal death? Huh?

I can buy Sam researching, not being successful, and then moving on, but I will never buy into this idea that he wouldn't even investigate!
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2012-11-29 12:49
lala2, I feel the same way and find it frustrating that we're approaching the half-way point for the season without, a) a clear indication of what Sam got up to while Dean was in Purgatory, and b) a satisfying, in-character reason for why Sam did not look for Dean when Dean disappeared.

At first, I thought Sam's flashbacks were brief on purpose but would become more informational as time went on, however, whilst the flashbacks have become longer at times, I don't feel like they've given me much more information than the first few flashbacks I saw.

I really want to know what went on (and what is going on) inside Sam's head. We didn't get much more info from Dean's flashbacks but I, somehow, feel I have a slightly clearer idea of what Dean is feeling/thinkin g. Although, I would like to know why Dean seems to be suddenly healed of his post-Purgatory PTSD :o
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-29 13:48
Ciar, I really agree w/your points. I definitely feel I havea better understanding of Dean than Sam, but that is usually the case nowadays.

Dean, for the most part, is fully fleshed out and developed. We didn't get much about him in Purgatory, but the experience seems to have cured his apathy for hunting, which is nice. But Sam . . . I have no clue about him.

I'm just ready for a full understanding of Sam's story. I want to know what he was thinking, why he was thinking it, and how those thoughts impacted his actions. In my opinion, his FBs have been wasted on Amelia and her feelings when I want to know what Sam was thinking and feeling.

Just tell his story already! And preferably in a straightforward manner.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2012-11-29 17:21
lala, I agree with you. As much as I prefer not to be spoonfed plot and character motivation, at the moment, I am finding it difficult to relate to Sam (harder than I found it to relate to S6's RoboSam) because of what we're seeing on the screen every week. I love the character of Sam Winchester and I like how Jared plays the role, but I'm usually scratching my head at the end of each episode and trying to figure out what each week's information has contributed to my understanding of Sam. And, so far, I have to say that 8 episodes into the season, I'm not feeling like I understand, or know, Sam's motivations for running away for a year.

When I say that I feel I have a better understanding of Dean's motivations this year, I think I should qualify that somewhat too: I love the character of Dean too but I'm starting to resent the way that his issues are being treated/shown in a simplistic way. It's as though Dean's character can just be rebooted as Soldier!Dean when it suits the writers' needs.

It's safe to say that the characterisatio n of the brothers Winchester is confusing me this year.

I went back and read a few of bookdal's articles on WFB and it made me realise that Dean's story is generally made more accessible for the viewer whereas Sam's story is rarely explained in a straightforward manner by SPN writers. This strikes me as very much what is happening in this season, so far this year. Sam's is being treated as a mystery (we are left to query what his thoughts/feelin gs could be and what his behaviours could mean) however, Dean is shown as more straightforward and we're given more of an understanding of what his possible motivations might be (although, as I said above, Dean's motivations are shown in a simplistic manner which I think does the character a disservice because he is actually complex and Jensen plays him as wonderfully complex).

I really hope this is all resolved by the writers and that the resolution will be worth the confusion :sigh:
Leah
# Leah 2012-11-29 02:36
Hi Ardeospina- Thanks, as always ,for your early impressions of the episodes. I liked this episode very much, which surprised as I'm not a hugh fan of the comic ones. They did a great job of weaving together the silly and serious.

I loved all the Sam FB's. I am still uncertain as to whether they are real or a figment of Sam's mind but I am sure he had a breakdown of sorts. His comment that he ran was illuminating. It says that he was out of control and that certainly jives with other times his brother was presumed dead.

The CIAngels and their hidden agenda are intriguing. It surely must be tied to the tablets and it can't be good or else why all the subterfuge?

Cas as hunter was predictable in a good way. Try as he might, he just doesn't get it most of the time. I guess that's why I love him. I'm glad they are spending a lot of time showing his remorse, something sorely missing from last season. I know it can't last but I am enjoying Cas riding around with S&D and it IS fun watching Sam's reactions to the other two.

The visual effects were pretty great, I agree!

One last note, they use the tried and true blood/guts wall- splatter so much that I think it was fun for them to make us think that a bunch of elderly people blew up. Bad, bad director! :-0
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-29 03:01
Hi, Ardeospina!

Following your theory on Sam's dream like FB is a LITERAL dream, haven't you notice that Sam's shirt when he enters Amelia's motel is exactly the same as the wallpaper?

If you look it up again in 'Heartbreak' FB. The wallpaper in Amelia's motel room is just like Sam's shirt. What's this mean? Sam's entering his own mind?

These are some of the things that Ash48 has pointed out in her journal : (She allows me to reference it here as a discussion material)

Amelia's clothes in the hospital is exactly like what Dean wears in Changing Channel. Black undershirt with white doctor's robe.

Amelia's clothes when she's lazying with the dog, the same time as Sam enters her motel (his own mind?) is the same like Dean's clothes when he was in the mental institution in Sam Interrupted. White undershirt and light blue robe/robe like shirt.

When Amelia finds Sam fixing her sink she wears Dean's angst shirt. Red stripes shirt.

The decor in her motel also weird. I don't know what motel decor should be but usually they go with a theme, right? Amelia's wallpaper is red stripes but her bed cover is flowery. Sam looks like a sad princess with flowery skirt when Amelia dumps him.

The bedside lamp looks exactly like the lamp in Sam and Dean's usual motel room.

Ash48 in LJ also point out that Amelia's room number 118 plays a significant role that it represent the angel number 118. (1’s and 8’s, such as 118 or 881 - You are nearing the end of a significant phase of your life. If you are tired of some part of your life, be glad that it will soon be healed or replaced with something better. Surrender and release those parts of your life that aren't working, as your thoughts of a better life are coming to pass. Taken from http://clevelandohiousa.tripod.com/angelnumbers/)

Is this Sam trying to make better of his situation that he creates this dream in FB?

Also the painting above the bed is of the ocean. We know that ocean represent turbulence and uncertainty and doubt.

{Ocean Water – Depending on where you are in the ocean has different ways of interpreting the dream. If the ocean is dark or deep it represents your emotional state in your walking life. If the ocean water is turbulent it means that there might be rough time ahead. If your crossing the ocean water with ease means that you show a great ability to experience freedom and independence.

Sea Water – Sea like the Ocean symbolizes your emotional state, but unlike the ocean dreaming of the sea is the connection between the conscious and unconscious mind. De-coding the dream you can come up with “I See Now” or “See It Coming”. If your lost at sea it relates to you floating around in life with out any sense of direction.

taken from http://www.dreamdictionary.org/common/water-dreams/ }

There are lots of coincidence here if Sam's FB is nothing but what we're shown. Why would they put the decor like this? Supernatural always plays with symbolism.

Also. considering that Sam is :
1. A psychic
2. Had a split personality inside his mine before.
3. Been hallucinating Lucifer for the better part of last year.

So..... ?
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2012-11-29 04:00
KAJ, I NEVER NOTICED ANY OF THE THINGS U HAVE. U R A THINKING SOMEBODY. GOOD FOR YOU.
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-29 04:25
HI, NOLA NOLA...

Good to have you back!! Been missing your comments. :-D

I really can't take credit on the things that I've said above about Amelia's shirt having similarities with Dean's and the motel wallpaper with Sam's shirt. It's because Ash48 has pointed that out in her LJ.

About the Ocean and the 118 number, I look it up and the definition seems fits.

I will credit her in the above comment. Sorry...
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2012-11-29 08:16
KAJ, THANKS FOR REPLYING. WHAT IS LJ? U KNOW I AM OLD :lol: also I think FB=flash backs correct? hahaha I am Dead serious.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-11-29 08:40
Quote:
KAJ, THANKS FOR REPLYING. WHAT IS LJ? U KNOW I AM OLD :lol: also I think FB=flash backs correct? hahaha I am Dead serious.
FB = Flashback
LJ = Lifejournal

:lol:
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2012-12-04 01:00
Thank you Fluffy for helping me out. Very kind of you. Happy Holidays....... ..... :roll:
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-29 21:20
NOLANOLA, It's okay. :D

You're right FB = Flashback,
LJ= Livejournal. Once I read what ASH48 said in her journal, I start to look things up more closely.

Also I remember Jared said that Amelia has two names? I need to look up the interview again.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2012-12-04 01:02
Thanks so very much Kaj. I really miss this site. Have a safe & Happy Holidays....... .... :-)
E
# E 2012-11-29 09:13
Hi Kaj,
I like that you are bringing some of Ash48's speculation here. I know she meant some of it to be tongue in cheek, but it got my brain cooking about all of the little things that could be bits of hidden meaning. Did you also notice that the last shot of Sam while he was sitting in bed (with his flowery skirt all around) that he was seen behind the bars of the motel partition? Metaphor for Sam being locked up in the nut house perhaps?

And now we find out that Sam has been in contact with Martin Creaser from Season 5's Sam Interrupted; hmmm... maybe Sam had met back up with Martin once again while he was BACK in the nut house while Dean was in Purgatory?

And did anyone else notice in Blood Brothers that while Sam and Amelia were talking with each other that her radio clock was not set to an actual time? It was just blinking the same time over and over. I have speculated about this on another thread, but felt like addressing it again here. I suppose that the clock thing could have been a crew oversight, but it was really distracting; the blinking of the clock really drew my eye... so maybe it was deliberate? Could it signify that Sam was out of touch? That his time in his dream state was not like real time?
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-29 22:52
Hi, E

I re-watched Blood Brothers again and yes those red digits was blinking just like a blinking eye. D'you know who else have red eye?

That's right Crowley. For all three seasons we've never shown that Crowley has red eye even if we know that he's a crossroad demon.

There are lots of symbolical in Sam's FB. I think we need a thread for this. :D Let's discuss the symbolical in Sam's Flashback.
E
# E 2012-11-30 00:31
I would love a Sam flashback thread! What a great idea!
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-30 11:55
:-)

Please mods...
Alice
# Alice 2012-11-30 12:36
Consider it done. I'll get something up soon.
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2012-11-29 11:39
Wow, this is some very interesting speculation! I do agree that there is something going on beneath the surface of Sam's flashbacks.
Jessi
# Jessi 2012-12-23 19:10
So.. you probably already know this, but I was just randomly rewatching 3x05 "Bedtime Stories," and the hospital room the girl is in a coma in is also 118. Someone on the thread probably already pointed this out or perhaps Ash48 has, but I was just watching it and that sort of blew my mind.
Manstrad
# Manstrad 2012-11-29 03:15
I agree with you about Sam’s made out world, I’m almost 70% sure that it is what happened. But in my version, Sam only exchanged words with Amelia in her office, and she said something that reminded him of Dean, that triggers his hallucination. I don’t think he really had a relationship with her, other than taking care of the dog. I thought of that after the scene where he is checking her bank account in the computer and said something like “It’s not stalking, I’m just checking”. I’m 70% sure because I can’t define two things. One is, if the hitting of the dog was part of the equation or was just Sam talking with Amelia and her dog, I’m saying this because when he left we saw Amelia (hallucination) and the dog. If the hitting of the dog is part of the hallucination it is o.k., but, if the dog is real…. he just left the dog all alone? (Since Amelia doesn’t exists) And second, what about the shadow of the person outside watching the house? This is the part that makes me doubt of this hallucination theory, could it be that somebody planted it into Sam’s head? Or after tonight’s episode, could it be part of Sam’s hallucination, and the shadow belongs to the resurrected husband waiting for him to leave Amelia. Or, the whole thing it’s true and it’s really the husband and Sam did what it was right, that's why he went to Rufus's cabin and found Dean. What do you think? I really, really want it to be a hallucination, because Sam just dropping everything and doing nothing it’s not that brotherly. Sorry about my English, but it is my second language and it’s been 3 years without using it.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-29 10:14
It is possible that Sam met with Amelia in some context and simply slotted her into his delusional world. When Dean asked about how Sam met Amelia, he said I hit HER dog. It was always odd that a vet would force an itinerant, penniless stranger to take an obviously purebred and seemingly taken care of dog without at least doing a cursory check to see if anyone in the area owned it. In my state, the pound is required to wait 72 hours or 3 days before they can even consider adopting a dog, just in case the owners show up looking for it. But Amelia fixes the dog, pressures a guy who says straight out that he can't take care of it into taking it, even though the dog has just been through surgery and will be recovering from its injuries for a while. Again, IRL a vet might want to keep the dog at least over night to make certain that it was okay coming out of anesthesia and to check that there were no injuries being missed. Basically, I guess I'm saying that Sam was leaving the dog with its owner when he left that house. The dog could be a dream, Amelia and his life with the dog could be a dream. He could have had the breakdown, started following Amelia and been told that he was stalking her, come to her house to apologize and then left while she pretended to be asleep.
Prix68
# Prix68 2012-11-29 14:32
I also caught that Sam called it Amelia's dog. I even played it back to be sure. Maybe Amelia wasn't a vet but a therapist who uses a canine to help with therapy. It would help explain why Sam thinks of contacting Martin for survelience help. Same mental ward. I worked for a vet and trust me that dog wouldn't have been going home with a stranger right out of surgery or even it's owner. How was Amelia so sure the dog didn't belong to anyone? This is why the mental break makes sense and I could see Sam keeping that from Dean.
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-29 23:12
Hi, Percy

I was thinking that maybe it's a play on word. Hit the dog. Maybe it means Sam literally hit the dog with a knife or something, thinking that's it's blackdog or hellhound? Hallucinating?

What if the dog and Amelia is real but the background and decor is all wrong. Like Sam was not actually in a motel, not actually in a park when Amelia brought him a cake. Not actually have a relationship with her but seeing her in daily basis.
Prix68
# Prix68 2012-11-30 13:26
I'm kinda of wondering if Amelia was another patient along with Sam in a mental hospital where Martin,the hunter, was also a patient. The only part of the theory about Sam having a mental breakdown I can't reconcile, is if he's out and still remembering things incorrectly, then why is he out? It just seems more then coincidence that Martin is being brought back into the show next week. Chris -j may have come up with the explanation for that. I do wonder if the show runners put half as much thought in all ofthis as we do. Lol
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2012-11-29 11:50
Quote:
I agree with you about Sam’s made out world, I’m almost 70% sure that it is what happened. But in my version, Sam only exchanged words with Amelia in her office, and she said something that reminded him of Dean, that triggers his hallucination. I don’t think he really had a relationship with her, other than taking care of the dog.
This would be really interesting if it turns out to be the case. I'm thinking that Sam did actually hit the dog and take him to the vet. He did meet Amelia, but that was the extent of it. I think the rest of his "memories" are all in Sam's own mind.

If this is true, then I'd like to see an episode where Dean does some investigation of Amelia on his own, without Sam knowing, and he puts the puzzle pieces together and figures out that Sam's memories of the relationship are false (perhaps a manipulation by Naomi?). Then this is the impetus for Dean to approach Sam about Amelia and what happened during that year so that they can really talk about it and then together they will try to figure out what's going on.
E
# E 2012-11-30 00:39
Hi Chris_J. I really agree with you. I'd like to see Dean investigate Amelia too, and not only to find out about Amelia, but to find out about Sam. Dean's 'big brother radar' seems to be completely missing this season. Sam is so off, so weird, but Dean hasn't seemed to notice at all. I can understand the lapse to a certain extent, he was in purgatory after all, but, he STILL hasn't noticed anything 8 episodes in, and seems to be very concerned about Cas. He notices that Cas is off, but not his own brother? It hurt my heart a little when Dean sat down with Cas and said "talk to me." I don't begrudge Cas the attention at all, he needed it, but Sam needs some of Dean too, especially if the lack of Dean has caused Sam's current state.
aelaine
# aelaine 2012-11-29 03:18
Thank you for staying and getting this up!
I loved this episode! great one liners, cartoonish, yet they didn't go overboard and all the emotional scenes, poor Cas. I thought this episode explains Sam's off behavior, he has been running for his life literally trying to keep himself sane and as he said he was living a dream world,unable to face reality. Since Dean has been back he has been holding on to that ,maybe talking with Mike Ferrell's character was the first time he even admitted to himself that it was what he was doing. His scenes with Amelia's dad, every time her dad complained about something it was all he could do not to cry, he was trying so hard to hold it together, to me it was so sad to see the internal turmoil. This episode needed to be funny or I would have cried the entire episode lol. It is one of my favorites so far.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2012-11-29 04:12
YOU ALL HAVE GREAT THOUGHTS, SOME WAY OUT THERE BUT GREAT. I HAVE NOW SEEN EVERY EPISODE MORE THAN ONCE [NOT THAT COPS TAKEOFF. I DELETED THAT MESS]

I USUALLY JUST WATCH THE ACTING & WRITING. MAKE-UP AND CLOTHES ONLY LIKE IN TIME AFTER TIME. SPECIAL OCCASIONS.

NOW I GOTTA GO BACK & LOOK FOR WHAT I HAVE MISSED. BBL.
;-)
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-11-29 07:46
I liked this episode a lot and was pleasantly surprised it wasn't slapstick silly. They did a great job of weaving the cartoon stuff with the good stuff.

Having said that, I am officially totally confused now.

I can't reconcile the Sam flashbacks coming to the realization that he and Amelia were running away from their lives and clinging to each other to the pissy Sam, downright distainful of his brother, 'I found something I never had before,' 'I'll do this hunt and I'm hanging it up' Sam that we've seen since Ep. 8.01.

I guess Dean didn't have PTSD. He just needed a few weeks to get his feet back under him and he's perfectly fine now. Was the PTSD just a tease, or was it a way to reset Dean's character from the functioning alcoholic? Was Dean's story a plot device to get Cas reset from Looney Tunes Cas back to a recognizable character? Why even send Dean to Purgatory in the first place if the Purgatory story over now? Does Dean have a story this season?

So Naomi wanted Cas to spy on the Winchesters two weeks ago, but now Cas should just go do what makes him happy?

How did Cas get so all powerful? He heals mortal wounds (death is off the table for the Winchesters again, I guess), he can mind meld and brain adjust. He can move impossibly heavy weights. Actually, I thought the writer did a very good job the way he used fix-all Cas, but didn't over-use him. Nice job.

The thing that struck me the most in this episode was that Carver is a very mainstream TV guy. The show I'm seeing this season is not what I would have ever envisioned SPN becoming.

That said, other than the constant whiplash I'm getting each time I watch the show, I thought the episode was very good for the most part, with the exception of too many Sam Days of Our Lives flashbacks randomly thrown in. I did like that Sam, Cas, and Fred all were living in Fantasyland, but Sam's Fantasyland just didn't jive with what we've been shown of Sam this season.

I suppose it's all going somewhere, but I admit to having lost interest in the main characters stories. SPN is just not 'special' anymore. I'm down to watching the show to see Jensen perform and watching the action scenes.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2012-11-29 12:57
Ginger, I know what you mean about SPN not feeling quite as special as it used to. I still watch it every week and wouldn't want to miss it but, since Season 4, I've been getting my fix of Sam and Dean emotional/broth erly connection stories from fan fiction. Fans seem to be able to write satisfying stories where the brothers go on interesting hunts, meet and interact with interesting characters, and where the Winchesters have emotionally satisfying talks/arguments /predicaments to resolve - it baffles me that professional television writers can't produce more SPN stories that fit those criteria :o
FoolForDean
# FoolForDean 2012-11-29 13:10
Quote:
Ginger, I know what you mean about SPN not feeling quite as special as it used to. I still watch it every week and wouldn't want to miss it but, since Season 4, I've been getting my fix of Sam and Dean emotional/brotherly connection stories from fan fiction. Fans seem to be able to write satisfying stories where the brothers go on interesting hunts, meet and interact with interesting characters, and where the Winchesters have emotionally satisfying talks/arguments/predicaments to resolve - it baffles me that professional television writers can't produce more SPN stories that fit those criteria :o
Yep. Whenever canon makes me sad and I need a pick-me up, there's always fanfiction. It's kind of like me living in my dream world and ignoring reality. And you're absolutely right in that some authors are AMAZING at capture S & D's characters and delivering satisfying storylines at the same time. Rare, but quite a gem when you find one :)
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-29 13:40
Ciar, you and I are a lot alike. I very much enjoyed S4, but ever since mid-S5, I've been getting most of my brotherly moments and connections from well-written fanfiction! Haha! There are so few moments on the show nowadays.

The show has definitely lost, IMO, that something that made it unique and special. I watch now mostly out of habit and a desire to see how the Winchester story ends.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2012-11-29 17:33
FoolforDean and lala, if I didn't have fan fiction to supplement the now-weakened brotherly connection, and to explore the strong love that we know Sam and Dean feel for each other (and that I enjoyed seeing on screen so much in S1-3 that it came to define SPN for me) as well as supplying satisfying plots and more consistent characterisatio n of Sam and Dean, I don't think I'd be able to continue to watch TV!Supernatural as I do. Fan fiction allows me to tolerate the somewhat less compelling SPN that we get on TV. The Sam and Dean that exist in well-written, complex fan fiction are my happy place and my security blanket for when TVSupernatural' s Sam and Dean are behaving in a manner that confuses or disheartens me :lol:

I know people change, and TV characters change, but I'm not sure that the ways in which Sam and Dean have changed in the show are as a result of a natural evolution of their personalities or are a result of dodgy/inconsist ent writing.
st50
# st50 2012-11-29 17:42
Anybody care to share where to find the best of this fanfic? I'm not generally a fan of fanfic. lol.
But I'd like to have a look!
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2012-11-29 18:38
st50, I find most of the SPN fanfic that I read in Livejournals and Livejournal communities such as spnstoryfinders (http://bit.ly/fYO3X3) which has a comprehensive system of content tags to allow you find the type of story you enjoy.

The AO3 website (http://bit.ly/iQefDv) has lots of SPN fic and has lots of filters you can use to exclude the types of story content that you don't enjoy reading.

Fanfiction.net has lots of SPN fic but I don't tend to use it, I prefer the two sites I mentioned above.

Hope this info is of use to you :-)
dinkwerks
# dinkwerks 2012-11-29 19:39
Just go to google and type in supernatural fanfiction, but please be aware that there is a lot of stuff out there in fanfiction land that you may not want to read...so tread with care
st50
# st50 2012-11-29 20:18
Thanks ciar and dinkwerks!
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-30 00:53
Quote:
I can't reconcile the Sam flashbacks coming to the realization that he and Amelia were running away from their lives and clinging to each other to the pissy Sam, downright distainful of his brother, 'I found something I never had before,' 'I'll do this hunt and I'm hanging it up' Sam that we've seen since Ep. 8.01.
You and me both, Ginger. You see at "HeartBreak" I have a thought that Sam's normal is just that. A very happy normal-apple-pi e life full of rainbows. That's why Sam' wants it so much.

But now seeing that the flashback is more like a dreamworld, that Amelia's dad giving Sam the stink eye and her husband is returning. I don't see it as a happy life. Sam doesn't look like he loves her other than just using her as a floating board while he was drifting in the middle of a stormy ocean. Using Amelia to stay afloat above the water. I guess that's the same for Amelia too.

Now, this is what I don't get. Sam said he had something that he didn't have before. What is it? If I may ask?
1. The life with Amelia? His life with Amelia is all fake. Her husband is coming back. He ran away and hook up just for the shared desperation to have normalcy. That's what Sam wants to come back to? He's living with another man's wife.

2. The dog? Sam had a dog before when he was in flagstaff.

I don't get it. In Heartache Sam is so adamant to leave Dean. Even telling him that he better off hunting alone. ALONE while he knows how dangerous hunting alone is.
And this life is wht Sam wants to come back to? This fake dreamlike life where Amelia's husband is due to comeback from war?

I fail to see the happy part out of that.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-11-29 08:04
Ardeospina: 100% yes on Sam.

God, I had to fight to hold it together in those scenes.

If the timeline makes sense, and he left Amelia right after she got the call.... wouldn´t that have been about the time, Dean got back?

Don/Dean?
Don gets back/Dean gets back?

isn´t that odd?

Like someone saying "Sam, it´s time to go. He´s back"

And all the references, strewn in there, pointing to things DEAN would have done...

God, I can´t!

Also, what struck me as odd. Sam didn´t "douche up the car"
He did everything the way, HE would do things (Farmer's market e.g.)... except touch up the damned car.


And Cas... poor Baby. How he tried to be like the brothers. Saying all the things, they would have said. Only slightly off... never really fitting, but he was trying SO hard.
E
# E 2012-11-29 08:30
Actually Fluffy, your comment about the phone call and Don made me think about the phones that Sam said that he "threw away". Maybe Amelia getting the call that Don was alive, was really one of the calls that Dean made to Sam on his defunct phones when he got out of purgatory and Sam incorporated that into his dream world; his literal 'wake up call' to get back to the real world. Don and Amelia and Amelia's dad are all facets of Dean and he was living with all of these facets of Dean in a perfect world where he could stay in one place, have a dog, connect with another person, be useful, do the right thing, etc....
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-11-29 08:34
Quote:
Actually Fluffy, your comment about the phone call and Don made me think about the phones that Sam said that he "threw away". Maybe Amelia getting the call that Don was alive, was really one of the calls that Dean made to Sam on his defunct phones when he got out of purgatory and Sam incorporated that into his dream world; his literal 'wake up call' to get back to the real world. Don and Amelia and Amelia's dad are all facets of Dean and he was living with all of these facets of Dean in a perfect world where he could stay in one place, have a dog, connect with another person, be useful, do the right thing, etc....
WOAH!

But uhm.. Amelia MUST be real, as does Riot... just.. but yeah. She was there, when Sam left. And the car smelled of dog.

But yeah... it makes sense.

Good catch.
E
# E 2012-11-29 09:16
Yeah, I can't figure out how to make the dog part of it fit into the dream world, so I guess they are probably actually real. But maybe this relationship between them isn't real??? I can't wait to find out. I am really digging the Sam/Amelia storyline.
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-30 01:07
I have another theory. If this is about Sam's perspective I think it makes sense that we see Amelia is there when Sam leaves the house.

Sometimes people just see what they want to see, right? Who knows if there are other people in the house? Just the fact that we don't see them and just the fact that we see Amelia that doesn't mean that they all true. Because we see it from Sam's perspective. And just like Dean's memory, perspective can miss lead.
Is that really a house? We see Amelia there because Sam thinks she's there.

But I am sure that the dog is real because it's bleeding. Remember Plucky? If it bleeds, you can kill it. So, the dog is real.

Sam is stalking another man's wife. Amelia probably lives with her husband now but Sam is stalking her with his computer, looking up her data. Why? She's another man's wife. Why do they write Sam become a creepy stalker?

Is this what Sam means by saying "It'll destroy everything"? By wanting to keep his dreamlike life (whether if his relationship is true or hallucination) Sam is destroying a family. Keeping Amelia from seeing her husband maybe? Just for his selfish need to keep living in a dream life?
E
# E 2012-11-29 08:20
My initial reaction to this ep was that it was pretty good. I actually wished that they had taken the cartoon thing a little further. I was expecting the ep to be more outrageous than it was, so it seemed a little tame to me at least on first viewing. And I did feel that the editing was at times really choppy and somewhat clunky; there were several cuts at the ends of scenes as they transitioned into a new scene that left me going huh?

I LOVED all the Sam flashbacks, there is definitely more to his story than meets the eye. Ardeospina, I really like your take on Amelia's dad; I do think that he is Sam's psyche in some ways, confronting him with all of the things that he thinks about himself. That actor was the same one used in season 1's Phantom Traveler, and he appeared up on X-Files several times as well. I really like also, your take on what was going on with Sam; all of his comments to Fred about living in a dream world were telling, and leaves me wondering just how real Sam's dreamworld was to him while he was living in it? Does Sam know how much of a dream his world was? Will he have to be confronted at some point this season by how deluded he was? Poor Sammy. The more that they fill in the blanks of his 'normal' year, the more sorry for him I feel.
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-30 01:19
Hi E,

I am more worried of Sam's speech to Fred that if he keeps the dream life it'll destroy everything.

Did Sam destroy Amelia's life just for the sake of keeping his own dream life? I mean her husband is coming back and she's finally going to reconcile with him while Sam still got nothing to hold on.
Darya
# Darya 2012-11-30 01:31
Yeah, I thought it could be that way too. Which would make everything a thousand times worse. But he did say "it will destroy you" meaning himself, so hopefully we won't go there.
E
# E 2012-11-30 21:04
Hi Kaj,
I was thinking that Sam's line about 'destroying everything' was less about Amelia and more about himself, like his inability to act was destroying everything and that he had to get out of his dreamworld and confront reality. I still think that the angels may be involved in what is going on with Sam; maybe even WITH his knowledge.
Prix68
# Prix68 2012-11-29 08:39
I really enjoyed this episode. I was hoping that we would get some answers along with the humor and I wasn't disappointed. I wish Dean could sit down with Sam and say "Talk to me" like he did Cas . It was a very touching moment. I think you're spot on about Sam. I don"t think he actually knew Dean was at the cabin when he got there in episode 1.I think he was there because it was their last "home" before Dean disappeared. Sam didn't have any phones to get the messages from Dean and he's surprised he's alive. I can understand him not wanting Dean to know he had a mental break as well. Hope next week doesn't leave us too angst ridden because a month without Supernatural is angst enough for me. Great season so far!
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2012-11-29 09:22
Prix68, I also wish that Dean or Sam would just sit down and say, "Talk to me", to his brother. I was a bit miffed that Cas got that moment with Dean when Sam could have done with having it. I don't like the fact that the brothers don't really have emotional chats any more :-?
st50
# st50 2012-11-29 09:47
Quote:
Prix68, I also wish that Dean or Sam would just sit down and say, "Talk to me", to his brother. I was a bit miffed that Cas got that moment with Dean when Sam could have done with having it. I don't like the fact that the brothers don't really have emotional chats any more :-?
These boys need to learn to open up to each other. I have no problem with the macho "I got it covered" attitude with others, but they've got to know their brother is the only one who could hope to understand...

I think Sam knows that Dean talks only when Dean is ready. Like after his trip to hell, Sam could keep asking, but Dean only spilled when Dean was ready. Hopefully that point will come soon. (And he did talk a little about Cas, so I think he's getting there).

I wish Sam would be a little more obvious with Dean that there is a NEED for that little "Talk to me" chat. Dean doesn't see it, because all he knows is that Sam had a normal life while he was gone. Nothing there to talk about.

It will (soon, I hope) come to a head, and then the proverbial stuff will hit the fan and Dean will be mad that Sam hadn't told him his life wasn't all sunshine and roses. Yadayada... (Hoping the writers get more inventive this time)
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2012-11-29 13:03
Yeah, st50, that's a great way to describe the Winchester brothers' dynamic - be macho and unconcerned to the outside world but be honest and open with family (after much poking or prodding by the other brother, over a period of time, to make you open up about your emotions lol ;-) ).

I know what you mean about the cyclical "one brother keeps a secret and the other brother gets angry when it comes into the open" plot elements. I think that SPN trope has got a wee bit tired from overuse, although if this type of plot was used again, and was written in the right way, it could be good because we know that the Js can play emotional and angsty scenes really well.
st50
# st50 2012-11-29 13:08
Yes, ciar!
That's exactly the way I see it. Hoping we get to the Js playing those "emotional and angsty scenes" really soon!
:-)
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-30 01:31
Quote:
I wish Sam would be a little more obvious with Dean that there is a NEED for that little "Talk to me" chat. Dean doesn't see it, because all he knows is that Sam had a normal life while he was gone. Nothing there to talk about.
Agree st50. some fans blaming Dean for not asking Sam about his life during the past year. But in every episode Sam doesn't even give a hint that his life was far from happy, that he was a mess without Dean.

Sam only said "I had something that I haven't had before", "I want a normal life", "I didn't hunt", "I hit a dog and met a girl". That's it. When Dean ask why Sam didn't look for him, Sam just quiet. Like he's embarrassed for admitting weakness in front of his big brother.

Does Sam think it's better that Dean think of him as a bad brother than Dean think of him weak? Perhaps if Dean think of him weak then Dean will fuss about him and Sam doesn't want that?
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-11-29 12:35
I don't feel that Sam looked surprised to see Dean? I could be wrong but somehow the reunion was off. He walked away from Dean when he said "your alive" I feel it was because he couldn't look Dean in the eye and say that. I think he knew that Dean was alive, but that somehow there was a reason for him keeping away.
Leah
# Leah 2012-11-29 14:20
kaz1, I agree, Sam was not taken completely by surprise. The comments Sam made about "can I just say hello",and "I don't know whether to give you a hug you or take a shower" were just weird!! Is this how you react when you thought someone was well and truly dead? That has bugged me since the premiere.
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-30 01:50
Quote:
kaz1, I agree, Sam was not taken completely by surprise. The comments Sam made about "can I just say hello",and "I don't know whether to give you a hug you or take a shower" were just weird!! Is this how you react when you thought someone was well and truly dead? That has bugged me since the premiere.
That bug me too, Leah. I've said it from the first time the first episode was aired. I've rewatched it over and over again and comparing it with the previous hugs from S4 and S6. Sam didn't look very surprised. For someone who thought that his brother was dead, their reunion was awkward.

Sam should've been the one who perform the test if he really thinks that Dean was dead. How did he know that Dean was really Dean at the time? Dean was dead. That's why he didn't look, right?

Very Odd. I really hope they don't just shove it under a rug or something.

I have a thought that Sam thought he was still living in a dream world where he hallucinated Dean's return. If he's sure that Dean's a hallucination then he didn't have to perform any test.

"Dean, I know it's you."
st50
# st50 2012-11-29 08:52
E, I must say I was also thrown by some of those abrupt scene cuts. There were a couple that almost cut off final words in some lines. I didn't think they actually helped, but were they intentional?

I really enjoyed this episode. The last few have felt like we're getting back on track. Not quite season 1-5 Supernatural, I think that phase is done, but back to characters I know and understand.

I really enjoyed Cas this time - not catching references - the shortened name/3rd wheel stuff. Some great lines.

I agree that Dean seems to have lost his PTSD again. and I guess his "Survivor's guilt" phase is over, since Cas is back.
Will he be betrayed by Benny? Dean is all about loyalty, so either Sam or Benny will be in the hot seat all midseason break.

Sammy - oh what to say about Sammy. I really felt for the guy. I think Amelia's real, but there's something off with his flashbacks - the colour had been more normal in the last couple, but it was off again in this episode. So these memories aren't quite accurate - if they're memories, and not his dream world.
What is obvious, - with the survivor guilt comment, the I just ran, and even with Amelia's Dad calling him out as a guy with "that look" - is that our always-sensitiv e, been-to-hell-wi th-Lucifer-and- brought-him-bac k-inside-my-hea d Sammy had reached his breaking point.
Whether she's real or not, Sam just had another person torn out of his heart. This boy just can't stop loosing people! :cry:

Where are we going with this, Carver?
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-11-29 08:58
Quote:
E, I must say I was also thrown by some of those abrupt scene cuts. There were a couple that almost cut off final words in some lines. I didn't think they actually helped, but were they intentional?

I really enjoyed this episode. The last few have felt like we're getting back on track. Not quite season 1-5 Supernatural, I think that phase is done, but back to characters I know and understand.

I really enjoyed Cas this time - not catching references - the shortened name/3rd wheel stuff. Some great lines.

I agree that Dean seems to have lost his PTSD again. and I guess his "Survivor's guilt" phase is over, since Cas is back.
Will he be betrayed by Benny? Dean is all about loyalty, so either Sam or Benny will be in the hot seat all midseason break.

Sammy - oh what to say about Sammy. I really felt for the guy. I think Amelia's real, but there's something off with his flashbacks - the colour had been more normal in the last couple, but it was off again in this episode. So these memories aren't quite accurate - if they're memories, and not his dream world.
What is obvious, - with the survivor guilt comment, the I just ran, and even with Amelia's Dad calling him out as a guy with "that look" - is that our always-sensitive, been-to-hell-with-Lucifer-and-brought-him-back-inside-my-head Sammy had reached his breaking point.
Whether she's real or not, Sam just had another person torn out of his heart. This boy just can't stop loosing people! :cry:

Where are we going with this, Carver?
Dean doesn´t habe PTSD!
HE doesn´t he never had. ALright, he might have had after Hell.
But this time?

No.

Dean does not have PTSD.
He had a little trouble readjusting. Just a normal reaction. It might have gone sideways, but it didn´t.
He came home in his head.
Darya
# Darya 2012-11-29 11:35
Yeah, I guess we just assumed he did. It took him a while to find his "sea legs" that's all.
st50
# st50 2012-11-29 11:43
I agree that it can't have been there, if it is now just gone...

In all fairness, though, the PTSD idea was really emphasized by Jensen talking about 'hurt locker' and how he enjoyed playing that... We had no reason to assume it wasn't PTSD the way he was playing/promoti ng it. :-|
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-29 10:25
I was at a disadvantage from the beginning here, I don't like Looney Tunes or their type of humor, so this didn't make me laugh the way others did. Plus I had nitpicks.

I was confused as all heck that Sam and Dean knew a guy who was a hunter and was psychic AND who had psycokenisis. It sort of negates Sam's concerns during seasons one and two about his powers because, hey!, they already knew a guy with powers and John trusted him enough to introduce him to his sons. I was also confused by Cas's shifting healing powers. He was able to take Sam's crazy away. He was able to save gunshot victim. He couldn't cure the Alzheimers or the crazy that Fred Jones was suffering? He had to keep him ill, but give him new delusions? Personally, I'd rather be dead, but that's just me.

I am also disturbed by the continued verbal downgrading of Sam. First Benny is the better brother, now Dean specifically tells Cas that CAS deserves shotgun and Sam can just ride in the back and be the third wheel. That just annoyed me.

They are still being cagey with the Sam flashbacks. Is it real or is it Memorex and the longer they keep it up, the less I care. The writers decided to throw Sam under the bus by having him not look for Dean. They decided to show how that affected Dean. They decided to tell, not show us how Sam felt with Dean gone. It's becoming far to late to give Sam any kind of sympathy. If we knew from the beginning that Sam had a breakdown, it would be better, but as of now all we have is Dean repeating what a terrible brother Sam is and Sam not refuting that in any way.
Prix68
# Prix68 2012-11-29 11:17
Reminder, Dean doesn't know what we know, only what Sam has told him, that he hit a dog and met a girl. When he knows the real reason Sam didn't look for him, and I trust that it will be a good reason, all will be well again. For now, it does what it has always done for SPN fans, keeps us on the edge of our seats, waiting and speculating about the big reveal. Personally it's what I love and hate about the show.
st50
# st50 2012-11-29 11:24
Quote:
For now, it does what it has always done for SPN fans, keeps us on the edge of our seats, waiting and speculating about the big reveal. Personally it's what I love and hate about the show.
Truer words, Prix68.
They always seem to know where my patience starts to run out, and give me enough tidbits to keep going....
Can't wait for several "big reveals" this season!

(And I really want to know how they're going to keep Cas being fun, and not the "instant fix Winchester angel". Surely they're not going to just "park" him now and again. Maybe the CIAngels will limit his powers to heal/fix where they don't want him to??)
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-29 12:54
True, but Dean has pretty well shut down any mild attempt Sam has made to tell him about his year. Sam tells Dean that he found something he never had before. Dean jumps to the conclusion that it was a girl and when Sam says she was part of it, Dean settles on she was all of it and shuts Sam down. Sam has asked Dean about his time in Purgatory. Dean has not asked Sam anything about his year. Sam told Dean Amelia's name in episode one, and then he has to repeat to Dean that she actually HAS a name and is not just "a girl". I'm not saying Sam isn't withholding, I'm saying that Dean has made it clear that he has made up his mind as to what happened to Sam and doesn't want any more information.
Prix68
# Prix68 2012-11-29 13:52
Sam isn't trying to understand how Dean feels about Benny . Dean isn't, trying to find out more about why Sam didn't look for him. Everyone has issues and hurt feelings. I think Sam must have felt totally abandoned. Remember in "Slice Girls" he asked Dean to be more careful and not get himself killed. Sam said he didn't care how Dean coped, just don't get killed and then boom Dean disappears. Now Dean is being insensitive and acting like Benny is a better brother to hurt Sam back for not looking for him. If the Winchester boys each had a good woman in their lives they would have been told to sit down and talk this out. Lol
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-29 14:22
With the OOC, crappy way Sam is being written, Dean has every right, IMO, to doubt Sam and to possibly have more faith in Benny at this point.

I can definitely understand how Dean could have been thrown for a loop by the Sam w/whom he reunited. This Sam isn't any Sam I know or understand.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2012-11-29 17:42
Prix and lala, you both make good points about Sam and Dean's behaviour in this season. I think our confusion about the brothers and how they feel (and their motivation for everything since the end of S7) shows that the brothers are being written OOC and strangely this year.

It's confusing to try and work out how each brother might feel about the other because,
a) they don't talk to each other about anything meaningful, or personal, much any more;
b) a year is a long time for them to be apart but we only get brief flashbacks to fill in the gaps and those flashbacks are very lacking in details on emotions or feelings;
c) how they relate to each other seems to change from week to week depending on who wrote the episode.

edited to add
d) the writers seem more interested in exploring the brothers' relationships with Benny, Amelia, and Cas rather than exploring the brothers' relationship with each other.
Prix68
# Prix68 2012-11-30 14:34
Ciara I agree with you. It feels like the chemistry between Sam and Dean (Jared and Jensen?) is missing this season. Yet I feel the chemistry between Dean and Benny that used to be between Sam and Dean. Dean and Cas still seem to have the old chemistry too. Sam (Jared) seems off this year. Is this the writers or something else? I like that Dean is his old badass self. He was a little whinny last season but Sam's character is all over the place. Remember last season he was all about hunting was his life and he had made peace with that. There doesn't seem to be much chemistry between Sam and Amelia either. Sam doesn't seem all that comfortable with Amelia in the flashbacks. He seems stressed.
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-30 02:08
Quote:
With the OOC, crappy way Sam is being written, Dean has every right, IMO, to doubt Sam and to possibly have more faith in Benny at this point.

I can definitely understand how Dean could have been thrown for a loop by the Sam w/whom he reunited. This Sam isn't any Sam I know or understand.
You're right, lala. I have problem understanding Sam because he seems to have a multiple personality. Each episode we see different Sam. Dean doesn't know about Sam's flashback but we do. If we, who've seen Sam's flashback, don't get Sam how can Dean get Sam?
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2012-11-29 11:36
Quote:
but as of now all we have is Dean repeating what a terrible brother Sam is and Sam not refuting that in any way.
What? Dean has never called Sam a "terrible brother." Ever.

Quote:
Dean specifically tells Cas that CAS deserves shotgun and Sam can just ride in the back and be the third wheel.
Dean never called Sam a third wheel. He was trying to be nice to Cas because Cas was actually trying to be a better hunter, and because Cas had revealed to Dean that he was suicidal. I think Dean was just trying to give Cas a little encouragement, that's all.

I thought Dean and Sam's interactions in this episode were wonderful. I just don't understand the need to hate-on Dean? :sad:


I think there are some really great theories here about Sam & Amelia. It's nice that the show seems to be setting up something with Sam's flashbacks and also Naomi's influence over Cas. I do think both storylines are related and more will be revealed about what happened to Sam in that year.
Darya
# Darya 2012-11-29 12:00
Quote:


I thought Dean and Sam's interactions in this episode were wonderful.
Yeah, I agree for some reason. I loved Sam's smile to the "slumber party" comment, and I loved how they worked together at the morgue while poor Cas looked on, totally lost. And I think Dean's "you can ride shotgun" comment was just like an adult rewarding a child with candy. Look, you did well, we'll do what you want for once.
st50
# st50 2012-11-29 12:01
Quote:


I thought Dean and Sam's interactions in this episode were wonderful. I just don't understand the need to hate-on Dean? :sad:
Agreed, and I'll add... Or Sam. Can't we all just love them both? They're great, flawed, heroic characters. Both of them. And they both screw up, which actually gives us a story to follow! Be pretty damn boring if they were both perfect, imho.
Geesh.
Leah
# Leah 2012-11-29 15:23
The huge chasm in opinions is just crazy to me st50, Chris_J, and Darya. On one side we seem to be enjoying the season for the most part. Seem to have understanding for Sam and his choices. On the other hand we have those that think Sam's character has been ruined beyond repair and has been that way for years. I do understand a lot of the concerns of those fans, but my bottom line is so different. There is almost no optimisim for anything. The show does not care for Sam and writes him horribly. Weak, pathetic, cowardly, bad brother- those are the conclusions I will never get to. Sorry. Come on, they are heroes not saints. It would be so nice to meet somewhere in the middle. But alas it probably won't happen.

I do have to agree that the show is not like the earlier years. Those were some amazing, but not completely flawless seasons. This season is not like those in many ways but it is still one of the best series around 8 years in and that in itself is amazing IMO.
st50
# st50 2012-11-29 15:34
Hey, I started this season not liking Sam's spoiled plot outline. I still hate that he never looked, and I'm one who was screaming character assassination along with the rest....
But I made a conscious decision that if I was going to continue to watch my show, I'd have to find something to enjoy. Even promising myself to "keep it shallow" if all else failed. :oops:

The funny thing is, that since I promised myself to enjoy it - or else- I have started seeing some really great things. I don't like that Sam quit hunting and didn't look, but he's still my faulty hero, and in these last few episodes, I see the Sam character that I fell in love with. And I'm starting to see where there just might be a plan.

Dean's character has its issues this season, too, but I never felt they were beyond repair.... They're just going in directions that surprise me.

Forcing myself to let go of my own issues is what saved the show for me. :-)
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-29 15:52
@ Leah,For me Sam is not weak or pathetic or any other negative thing.It is just that when Dean did CR Deal we knew immediately why he did so ,his grief stricken speech ,the desperation were shown beautifully and at the right time and it gave full impact.This in my mind is a prime example for how a showrunner treats his/her protagonist so that the viewers are given maximum impact.So,why don't they do the same with Sam?Why make me wait for half or more than half season to get Sam's reaction?if only to give me a stale episode like I know what you did last summer in terms of treating Sam's grief.I hope you understand , I am simply tired of waiting.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-29 16:55
This is my exact problem. Dean's completely OOC moment of selling his soul was developed over all of season 2 and he got that wonderful speech to Sam's body. Season 4 Sam never got a chance to explain his decisions that led to drinking demon blood and turning toward Ruby. Now we have heard Cas explain how he feels about what he did while he was bad, why he didn't want to visit heaven. We got Dean dumping all of his anger on Sam when possessed and Dean constantly needling Sam about his choices during the year. Just like in season four, we are seeing the results of the choices but not why they were made or what Sam's mental state was when he left that lab. All we are getting is Dean's perspective and every episode where we do not get Sam explaining himself is one more episode where Dean's negative view of Sam is reinforced.

I am sick of waiting for Sam to be allowed to talk about his feelings and for Dean to actually acknowledge that Sam HAS feelings and has a right to his feelings.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-11-29 17:20
I had hoped we would get away from all this with Sam and had hoped they would approach Sam differently considering how the mytharc had been used to justify the lack of Sam pov in the past with no mytharc hanging around Sam's neck there hasnt been a need at least for me for this with Sam.

I actually thought this episode wasnt to bad and Sam looked absolutely gorgeous in those flashbacks but the narrative for Sam's story the unnecessary rant from Dean a few weeks back towards Sam has a brother the whole Cas riding shotgun although at another time would not of bothered people however coming at this time it did seem a little bit of a dig it has left me wondering why? what was the need to of gone down this road this season with Sam .

I can understand to a point Dean being hurt by Sam not looking but he doesnt know Sam's year and its all come across as a tad heavy handed for me the brother stuff esp . I truly hope the up coming episodes does give us more of Sam's story and at some point Dean listening to how Sam feels.
Prix68
# Prix68 2012-11-30 16:27
Dean specifically asked Sam why he stopped hunting in the first episode and Sam chose to give a vague answer about how he found something he'd never had before, a normal life, period. If there was more he should have spoken up. The whole Amy thing has been given more importance then needed. She killed four people and Dean didn't know her son was there until after he had killed her. Sam knew her one afternoon when he was 15. Not Dean's finest moment but hunting is a hard life. Percysowner you seem IMO to have a definite bias against Dean apparently all the way back to S2 but I love Dean so maybe that's my bias showing.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-11-30 16:50
She also saved Sam's life maybe the importance given to it is not in the killing but in Dean and his behaviour .Sam saw her as a friend but Dean saw her has a monster and now it seems we have Benny with Dean seeing him as a friend and acting differently and I know the he fought with him in Purgatory but the word 'friend' means the same wether a short acquaintance or longer.
Prix68
# Prix68 2012-11-30 18:10
Sharon- Benny said even in purgatory that he had stopped drinking blood by killing humans and Dean has said at least twice that if Benny starts killing and drinking people then he should be killed. Amy was killing people. A monster killing people and then getting hunted and killed is the family business. Both Sam and Dean agreed to let Lenore and her nest go because they weren't killing people. There is a difference.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-11-30 18:22
Nobody denies she killed out of desperation to save her son not because she was some heartless killer but again it wasnt the killing it was how Dean acted .
Benny is different or at least how Dean sees it is different now if Benny started killing then yes I would expect the swift justice giving to him that has been given to others.

But the point is Dean had no qualms about waving the friend card when it was someone important to him but suffering no counternance when it came to a friend of Sam,s.
Prix68
# Prix68 2012-11-30 18:50
Sharon- He did try to explain to Sam why he had to kill her even before he did it but Sam was still shaky then with the broken wall. Even in real life if you kill 4 people for body parts you're still a murderer, even if you need the parts for your son. Amy was a sympathetic character but if her son got sick again she would have killed again. Dean never complained about Sam killing Emma in "Slice Girls" because he knew she was a monster who would kill. Dean just couldn't do it himself.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-02 12:32
@Prix68-Yes but since this is not real life what i was saying was the writers could have had Sam telling and more justly them showing what Sam went through.When Dean did crossroad Deal, Sam did not ask him what he did as Sam did not know he was dead.So why show what Dean went through?They showed it because they wanted US to know and more importantly for us to feel what Dean is going through.At this moment i give a rat's ass if Sam tells Dean or not what happened.I want to know what happened,that's it.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-02 12:38
Quote:
Benny said even in purgatory that he had stopped drinking blood
But he has killed humans hasn't he?Amy would stop after her son got well.So Dean did jump the gun there.Quote:
There is a difference.
Actually the only difference is She killed them now and he killed them before.Both have killed,from a human standpoint Amy is more sympathetic then Benny IMO and after her son got well both were equally harmful/harmles s.What Amy did was like a Tiger killing a doe.Tiger has to survive so it kills not for fun.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-02 12:46
Quote:
Quote:
Benny said even in purgatory that he had stopped drinking blood
But he has killed humans hasn't he?Amy would stop after her son got well.So Dean did jump the gun there.Quote:
There is a difference.
Actually the only difference is She killed them now and he killed them before.Both have killed,from a human standpoint Amy is more sympathetic then Benny IMO and after her son got well both were equally harmful/harmless.What Amy did was like a Tiger killing a doe.Tiger has to survive so it kills not for fun.
But Sam DID catch her, trying to get her next victim...

Not, that I say, Dean was right. I don´t like it, that he killed her either.
But he might have had a point here...
This would have been a classic "wait and see"

Only Dean hasn´t been the wait and see type before Benny
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-02 12:52
Quote:
But Sam DID catch her, trying to get her next victim...
Yes,so?I was saying that Amy was killing now...... i didn't understand what you meant there.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-02 13:42
Quote:
Sharon- Benny said even in purgatory that he had stopped drinking blood by killing humans and Dean has said at least twice that if Benny starts killing and drinking people then he should be killed.
Yes, Benny said he had stopped drinking people in Purgatory. Frankly if I were a vampire wanting to get out of Purgatory by riding in a hunter, I would say I stopped drinking people too. Now in Benny's case it turned out to be true and that's great. But he only abstained for one year when he was with Andrea. Since there weren't people in Purgatory to drink from his 50 years there, that doesn't count. It's a good start and may well continue, but it isn't the same as Lenore who drank cattle for years and actively resisted drinking Sam's blood when it held over her mouth. Amy didn't kill people for at least 11 years (the age of her son) and possibly since her mother died. To be fair, she didn't eat the pituitary glands either, so for her it isn't like an addict going back to a habit and then having to detox and go back eating dead brains. Amy had a far better track record in terms of time than Benny has.

Amy is an iffy situation. She actively found a way to feed herself and her child for many years. She didn't break because she had a sudden longing, but to save her child. OTOH, she was killing. I think wait and see was a legitimate option. Sam did tell her if she did it again he would come after her.

Dean has said that Benny should be killed if he reverts, but he told Sam that some other hunter would have to handle it. Sam asked what if Sam had to handle it and Dean was we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. That is very different from Sam being willing to kill Amy if she slipped.
Leah
# Leah 2012-11-29 21:23
I do really. I wish you all could find a reason to enjoy the show again. I just don't see Sam portrayed as negatively as some. That doesn't make me right or you all wrong. I find I have a tendency to zero in on things I don't like about something and sometimes that ruins the whole experience for me. I fight that constantly. Trying to see the big picture helps me. I can nitpick something to death if I let myself :-)
Leah
# Leah 2012-11-29 21:34
My above comment was meant as a response to anonymousN but it got dropped a little lower than I thought it would.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-30 03:12
For personally Sam was never negative just when i have to wait for Sam's reaction always i feel a disconnect and that is making me not enjoy the show as much as i would have if i knew how Sam was immediately after Dean disappeared.Now even if they give it after hellatus i am scared it will be too little too late.
Leah
# Leah 2012-11-30 07:23
Understood anonymousN, I hope it won't be too little too late for you!
Darya
# Darya 2012-11-29 11:44
Quote:


I was confused as all heck that Sam and Dean knew a guy who was a hunter and was psychic AND who had psycokenisis. It sort of negates Sam's concerns during seasons one and two about his powers because, hey!, they already knew a guy with powers and John trusted him enough to introduce him to his sons. I was also confused by Cas's shifting healing powers. He was able to take Sam's crazy away. He was able to save gunshot victim. He couldn't cure the Alzheimers or the crazy that Fred Jones was suffering? He had to keep him ill, but give him new delusions? Personally, I'd rather be dead, but that's just me.
They never say that Fred is a hunter- it's only mentioned that he's a contact John had. John did have contact with psychics- look at Missouri. Sam's psychic thing was only a problem because it was connected to the demon that killed Mary, while Fred and Missouri had natural talent.

Fred Jones was old- therefore the Alzhiemers. And he can't be cured of a natural talent. It isn't exactly a mental or physical or even spiritual injury, it's his own mind collapsing on itself quite naturally. Or maybe Cas did take the crazy away, but the crazy was so part of Fred that he retreated into his own mind. (As implied by "I don't know how much of you will be left")
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-11-29 12:52
There is no way the writers would through Sam under a bus, the two brothers and the angst between them are the heart of the show. I cannot believe they would put him on the backburner in favour of Cas. It would be OOC for all concerned, and what purpose would that serve? No I have faith in Carver. Season 4 and ep 1 of season 5 had the brothers saying some seriously sad things to eachother.
Sam: I hope when this is all over that we can go back to what we were
Dean: I dont think we can be what we were

Yet they always managed to see their way through. I have faith that the relationship is as strong as ever.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-29 13:33
I feel like they never did get back to what they were. Dean didn't trust Sam until Sam was going to jump into the Cage. The Sam came back soulless and Dean lost whatever trust he had built up by Sam dying. Then Sam had the wall and Dean couldn't trust that Sam wouldn't break at any time. Then the wall broke and Dean couldn't trust that Sam wouldn't go completely off the rails AND Dean was suffering from depression and PTSD at the same time. Then Castiel took the crazy and Dean was still depressed and feeling more betrayed by life, Castiel and that brought back the feelings of betrayal for Sam. Then Purgatory happened.

I have never felt that the bond between the boys has been really repaired. The cracks have been plastered over, but it isn't what it was and perhaps it never will be.
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-29 14:11
The bond wasn't repaired. Kripke broke something he couldn't quite fix again.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2012-11-29 17:54
kaz, sadly I think my views on this are more in agreement with percysowner and lala.

I'd love to see the bond between Sam and Dean being repaired. I don't think that their bond/connection is anywhere near what it used to be. It feels, to me, like Kripke et al broke the brothers' relationship in an attempt to fuel high drama in S4 and then they were unable to fix it again :-?

Although, what keeps me hanging on, and keeps me watching, is the hope that (bit by bit) the writers *might* begin to try to repair the bond between Sam and Dean. You are correct when you say that the angst and the bond between the brothers is the core of the show and I'm hoping that SPN writers will finally realise this and do something about it.
Darya
# Darya 2012-11-29 11:33
I loved this episode for its entertainment value. Loved all the lines, and I'm in awe that this was written by Andrew Dabb- it's pretty good material!

I thought Sam's flashbacks distinctly suggested that he was quite messed up, and I liked the flashbacks in this episode. I liked how the flashbacks and Sam's conversation with Fred rang true for all three of them- Fred, Sam and Cas. And Sam seemed so sad saying all that. (There were also a few scenes when I thought at least Cas was getting the sad-Sam vibe)

But Sam keeps repeating "I ran," the unsaid subtext of which seems to be "like a coward." I ran, I left everything, and I ran. This Sam doesn't sit well with the Sam in "Heartache", the 'I found a normal life,' 'I want to leave after this' Sam. So what happened between?

What is this dream world that Sam retreated into? Does it simply suggest his psychedelic life with Amelia or does it imply more? I think that Amelia is real, that we're seeing exactly what happened, but that Don is an angel/demon-pla nt.

Which would make this a reboot of season 1, when Jess was killed to push Sam into hunting- just that this time, they didn't kill the girlfriend, they brought her husband back. I don't, however, think that it was Don watching Sam- that would just be really creepy- probably whatever brought Don back.

And I also think this is what must have caused Sam to leave Amelia. I mean, she's not going to know what to say to him leaving now that her husband is back!

This, of course, is the simplest and most obvious explanation, so anything that deviates from this and surprises me is totally welcome.

:D

About the CIAngels: Cas is making his wrongs "all right" by doing what he's told? How? And does he remember meeting Naomi before? He seems to just jump into conversation with her.

There's a lot going on, and I just want answers. I agree with percysowner- I like the season a lot so far, but they're dragging out the Sam story. While I'm sympathizing with Sam and his emotional trauma, which seemed most visible to me in the Fred Jones-cartoon land conversation, and while I can understand why he ran and why he's holding onto Amelia (that line was so telling; he just needed an anchor, and I really loved it) enough is enough. ANSWERS, please.
Darya
# Darya 2012-11-29 11:34
Whoa that looks a lot longer outside this misleading white box. It's all about perception :D
st50
# st50 2012-11-29 11:49
Quote:

.....
I thought Sam's flashbacks distinctly suggested that he was quite messed up, and I liked the flashbacks in this episode. I liked how the flashbacks and Sam's conversation with Fred rang true for all three of them- Fred, Sam and Cas. And Sam seemed so sad saying all that. (There were also a few scenes when I thought at least Cas was getting the sad-Sam vibe)

......

What is this dream world that Sam retreated into? Does it simply suggest his psychedelic life with Amelia or does it imply more?

......


anything that deviates from this and surprises me is totally welcome.

:D
......

I like the season a lot so far, but they're dragging out the Sam story. While I'm sympathizing with Sam and his emotional trauma, which seemed most visible to me in the Fred Jones-cartoon land conversation, and while I can understand why he ran and why he's holding onto Amelia (that line was so telling; he just needed an anchor, and I really loved it) enough is enough. ANSWERS, please.
Yes... I totally agree with this. i'm ready for the answers.
January is looking like a very long time away. :cry:
st50
# st50 2012-11-29 11:59
I just realized how well they tied Deans line to Cas in the early part of the episode... "Listen to Sam" ... in with Sam's speech inside the mind of Jones. Cas was listening! :-)
FoolForDean
# FoolForDean 2012-11-29 12:38
Quote:
I just realized how well they tied Deans line to Cas in the early part of the episode... "Listen to Sam" ... in with Sam's speech inside the mind of Jones. Cas was listening! :-)
Great catch!!! I missed that! Actually, there were a lot of details mentioned above that I'd completely missed, and now can't wait to do my 3rd viewing to see what you are all talking about.

Initially after finishing last night's episode I thought I didn't care for it at all. But upon my second viewing this morning, I actually think it will become one of my go-to episodes - whenever I need my SPN fix but don't want any heartbreak. Sam, Dean, Cas, all getting along in cartoon land - I think that makes my heart happy :))) And I'm guessing that will last for one episode: I saw the trailer for 8.09. Can't wait for it, but also fearing it a little bit. No more heartbreaks, please???? I can't take anymore!!!

Back to this episode, though, I do agree with upthread comments on two things:

- Damn it Dean, can't you sit yourself in front of Sam and say, "Talk to me." ????

- If Sam's life with Amelia was a result of him running because he'd lost Dean, then why wasn't he ecstatic when Dean came back? I mean the I-lost-him-and- I-ran thing just doesn't fit with the I-had-something -I-never-had thing. Was he even referring to the same thing at all???
Darya
# Darya 2012-11-29 12:44
Quote:


- If Sam's life with Amelia was a result of him running because he'd lost Dean, then why wasn't he ecstatic when Dean came back? I mean the I-lost-him-and-I-ran thing just doesn't fit with the I-had-something-I-never-had thing. Was he even referring to the same thing at all???
That really is the big question for me. It's either
1) Shoddy writing. Really, really shoddy writing.
2) Sam preferring to stay in his made-up brightly-lit dream world than accepting that Dean is back, that he has to get back in the saddle and fight again, that he can't run anymore.
3) Carver playing a cat and mouse game with us.

Personally, I'm all for number 3.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-29 12:58
I'm for Carver playing cat and mouse as well. We know for certain that Lucifer took the shape of Dean in at least one of Sam's hallucinations, so it is possible that Sam has seen "Dean" return from the dead several times this year and he was holding onto stone one, which is that Dean is dead and will go away like he always does. It would explain his nonchalance at Dean's return AND explain him becoming more supportive of Dean as time passes. After all if Dean isn't disappearing again, then maybe this time he is real. I doubt that because it is awfully subtle for this show and would indicate more interest in Sam's state of mind than I think the writers actually have.
st50
# st50 2012-11-29 13:13
Quote:
I'm for Carver playing cat and mouse as well. We know for certain that Lucifer took the shape of Dean in at least one of Sam's hallucinations, so it is possible that Sam has seen "Dean" return from the dead several times this year and he was holding onto stone one, which is that Dean is dead and will go away like he always does. It would explain his nonchalance at Dean's return AND explain him becoming more supportive of Dean as time passes. After all if Dean isn't disappearing again, then maybe this time he is real.
Oh I really LOVE that idea, Percy!

Hmmm... let me go ruminate on that one... It would explain Sam's reserve, and lack of overt surprise/caring on Dean's re-appearance at the cabin... And how Sam would "know" it was Dean without all the usual tests...
Of course it would seem like the real Dean if it was a repetition of halluciDean!

you might be on to something... Or at least something to hold me over until January! :-)
Darya
# Darya 2012-11-29 14:20
I agree that it is too subtle for Supernatural and hence a bit far fetched- but st50 is right....anythi ng to keep me wondering over the hiatus. Although I think Sam's lack of reaction could also be a sign of how withdrawn he's become.
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-30 02:38
Quote:
I'm for Carver playing cat and mouse as well. We know for certain that Lucifer took the shape of Dean in at least one of Sam's hallucinations, so it is possible that Sam has seen "Dean" return from the dead several times this year and he was holding onto stone one, which is that Dean is dead and will go away like he always does. It would explain his nonchalance at Dean's return AND explain him becoming more supportive of Dean as time passes. After all if Dean isn't disappearing again, then maybe this time he is real.
Hmmmmm.... do you thin Sam still think that Dean is a mere hallucination in 'Heartache'? Because in that episode Sam is not at all supportive and his dialogue sounds really selfish. Then the next we get the werewolf episode. What did they talk about, we don't know. Then the next he meets Benny then Dean gets possessed, perhaps this is the time Sam realizes that Dean is truly real.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-11-30 03:30
Quote:
Quote:
I'm for Carver playing cat and mouse as well. We know for certain that Lucifer took the shape of Dean in at least one of Sam's hallucinations, so it is possible that Sam has seen "Dean" return from the dead several times this year and he was holding onto stone one, which is that Dean is dead and will go away like he always does. It would explain his nonchalance at Dean's return AND explain him becoming more supportive of Dean as time passes. After all if Dean isn't disappearing again, then maybe this time he is real.
Hmmmmm.... do you thin Sam still think that Dean is a mere hallucination in 'Heartache'? Because in that episode Sam is not at all supportive and his dialogue sounds really selfish. Then the next we get the werewolf episode. What did they talk about, we don't know. Then the next he meets Benny then Dean gets possessed, perhaps this is the time Sam realizes that Dean is truly real.
I´m not sure, he really would have thought Dean is a hallucination. But I think, he is cautious, that Dean MIGHT vanish again, might die, might... whatever....
So he´s keeping himself back. And only gradually starts to let himself come closer again.

From episode to episode, I get the feeling, Sam is moving closer to Dean in tiniest bits.
At first he was holding back completely. But in the last two, it felt, there was the beginning of a careful, reluctant connection again.

I´m all for Theory 3!

That would be so awesome
Darya
# Darya 2012-11-30 03:47
I have a theory for odd Heartache Sam versus this recent Sam, I meant to put it here but it ended up a little lower down this list...
FoolForDean
# FoolForDean 2012-11-29 13:03
Quote:
Quote:


- If Sam's life with Amelia was a result of him running because he'd lost Dean, then why wasn't he ecstatic when Dean came back? I mean the I-lost-him-and-I-ran thing just doesn't fit with the I-had-something-I-never-had thing. Was he even referring to the same thing at all???
That really is the big question for me. It's either
1) Shoddy writing. Really, really shoddy writing.
2) Sam preferring to stay in his made-up brightly-lit dream world than accepting that Dean is back, that he has to get back in the saddle and fight again, that he can't run anymore.
3) Carver playing a cat and mouse game with us.

Personally, I'm all for number 3.
Oh, yes, please let it be number 3. I've always said I loved SPN for the intelligent writing (al though I guess when I pause and gawk that it isn't at the intelligent writing). If this turns out to be shoddy crap... I'm not going there. Not going there. Please let it be #3, pleasepleaseple ase...
Darya
# Darya 2012-11-29 14:14
fingers crossed and firmly on the side of Team Perception
Mieke T
# Mieke T 2012-11-29 18:24
I believe it to be a combination of number 1 and 2, with acting choices being made based on what is being written thrown in. Did you see the interviews with J2 by Laura of the Huffington Post? JP pretty much confirms that THIS WAS Sam's reality for the year. That Dean's return "threw a monkey wrench" in this new reality/life of Sam's (the one where he found himself all alone, runs and finds a fellow runner) and that is the "perception" change in Sam's story.

I truly think that this "big reveal" or twist that everyone is waiting for is the one we are seeing right now. THIS is the big reveal: Sam's trauma and subsequent running and finding a fellow runner to hold onto. The "big reveal" is Sam figuring out that this idea of two people running from their trauma is "a dreamworld" and that real life can't be escaped, in fact it's harmful to others to try to escape it. Besides the tablet stuff, the story this season is a simple human one, one of relationships, be it set in a Supernatural universe (Being Human anyone?!)

Granted, I do think that the angels orchestrated Don's (and perhaps Dean's) return in order to keep them in the tablet hunt. Probably was an angel watching Sam leave Amelia.

But every time I think I see an indication that something more interesting is going to happen, for example when this cartoony dreamworld was introduced, it turns out to be quite literal and is simply a metaphorical vehicle, a clunky, painfully obvious, sledge hammer of a metaphor. The cartoon "dreamworld" makes Sam flash back to where Amelia's father literally says to her that she is living in a dreamworld and should come home. Sam then tells Fred that living in a dreamworld is not sustainable and he should get out because it hurts other people. I wish it meant more and that it was clever writing with hidden clues and foreshadowing, but I just don't believe that to be true anymore. Even Don coming back from the dead is just a mirror of Dean coming back, another "monkey wrench" to use Jared's words. I was not a bit surprised that Don was still alive, of course he was!

I did not find Sam's speech to Fred touching at all, even though Jared delivered it with great emotion. No, in fact, it made me roll my eyes, as a lot of the dialogue has me do lately. Because did we really need to be hit over the head with a speech spelling out the already incredibly obvious metaphors and similiarities between Cas' , Sam's and Fred's issues? It had already been spelled out in Dean's buddy chat with Cas AND in every Sam and Amelia flash back AND in Fred's storyline. We are smart enough to piece these things together, in fact we are fantastic at detecting subtext. We do NOT need to be hit over the head in every episode with exposition to explain the metaphor that illustrates the theme so we can understand where they want us to go. We get it the first time!

THIS is what is making me very frustrated with the show this season. THIS is what makes it feel so alien and different from the Supernatural I know and love. And it makes the Sam story line feel like a soap opera.

If we are being deliberately misled and this is all a ruse and an alternate reality I will have to eat some crow and reevaluate :) In the meantime I will keep watching and will look for the positives and the pretty in each episode.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-29 19:00
Quote:
I truly think that this "big reveal" or twist that everyone is waiting for is the one we are seeing right now. THIS is the big reveal: Sam's trauma and subsequent running and finding a fellow runner to hold onto.
In which case I will be out. I can only take so much Sam doesn't love Dean as much as Dean loves Sam and this will be my limit.

To be fair, the one thing that makes me wonder is that Sam said Dean coming back through a monkey wrench in his life and now it seems like Dan, Amelia's husband coming back did it, so who knows what they are hiding. I've heard there are interviews with Carver coming up and I hope this gets clarified. If he makes it perfectly clear that Sam never looked, I may not make it to the end of the season. Why bother when they have trashed the character I love?
RMF
# RMF 2012-11-29 22:48
I agree with you, Mieke T. I don't think there's any twist either, and you expressed very well what's off about the writing this season. The ideas just aren't very interesting, and they're spelled out so laboriously for us that any insights they might offer are drained of energy.
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-30 02:31
Quote:
- If Sam's life with Amelia was a result of him running because he'd lost Dean, then why wasn't he ecstatic when Dean came back? I mean the I-lost-him-and-I-ran thing just doesn't fit with the I-had-something-I-never-had thing. Was he even referring to the same thing at all???
That's exactly what I mean by saying that as if Sam is suffering from multiple personality. His dialogue doesn't add up. What he says to Dean and what he says in the flash back is different and has no correlation whatsoever.

Like we see someone who looks like Sam but having none of Sam's personality living in a dreamlike world.
Darya
# Darya 2012-11-30 03:43
I was thinking about "Heartache" Sam versus this recent Sam, trying to make some peace with it. So I'm wondering: Sam lost Dean and ran, as he kept saying. Now that Dean is back and is kind of mad that Sam didn't look for him, does that leave Sam thinking himself weak?

It's the fan argument that he has with himself : If Dean could escape Purgatory, does that mean Sam really could have saved him? If yes, what does that mean for Sam? That he ran, does that seem weak in his own eyes? Then the "maybe you're better off without me" line makes more sense because he sincerely believes he can't hold up his side, be a good hunting partner, because he thinks he's failed. The whole I-want-normal could be Sam trying to push Dean away, all the while considering himself weak to carry on the family business with Dean.

That he keeps repeating "I ran" could be an indication of this guilt. Maybe this Sam wants to leave because he no longer finds himself efficient enough to stay on the saddle and fight side by side with Dean. Maybe it's less about wanting normal and happy (only making Dean believe that to make him let Sam go) and more about really believing that Dean is better off without him and hence it's best for both of them if Sam leaves hunting. Even the line from Blood Brother "You've been kicking me ever since you got back" heightens his sense of having failed Dean.
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-30 11:52
That's actually makes sense but it's also a distressing thought. I never remember that Sam ever think himself weak. That would be also cementing the idea that the writers think Sam is weak. They let Sam think himself as weak.

The way they write it, they only show us that Dean keep kicking Sam and blaming him, further thrashing Sam's character ans assassinating him.

The big question, why would they write this Sam at all? Why write a weak Sam? It's OOC to me because Sam has never been weak before. he had never thought of himself as being weak. He even insisted in S7 that he can take Hallucifer just fine. He can take Lucifer's possession just fine. He can take Demon's blood and be just fine. One of the problem of S4-S5, according to Dean's perspective, was that Sam's too arrogant of his own capability.

The road that the writers' take this season is making Sam OOC.
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-11-29 12:20
You guys are just so lucky. I live in SA and will probably only get this in 2015 grrr
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-11-30 03:55
Hi kaz1, when you say you live in SA, do you mean South Africa SA?
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-02 09:00
Yes South Africa, we only get these shows years later. It is so frustrating to play catch up whilst trying to take part in the discussions. Love the passion though
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-12-03 01:43
Hey that's cool. I'm from SA too, so I totally get it. I don't know about you, but it's not often that I find a fellow South African SPN fan on the Internet. :lol:
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-03 11:38
Hey paintedWolf my SAn. Sorry to get back so late but some locals did some affirmative shopping in our house last night, it has been a mad rush with locksmiths and insurance. Am so dam grateful they left my PC. I am so glad that I have a local fellow SPN fan. Only started watching last year and am totally addicted. Loving this season, but like you I only have the web to keep me informed as I want to wait until the series comes out on DVD before I get stuck in. I think Sam is going to be exonerated from not looking for Dean this season, what do u think. The way they have depicted the FB makes you wonder. I just love the acting this season and feel that they are keeping their fans on their toes with all this guessing which makes for good TV I suppose
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-03 11:57
So sorry to hear that! Glad you got to keep your computer. :-) My sister was in her house the other day when someone came in and stole the TV - she doesn't ever watch TV so no one noticed it was gone for 2 days... 'Affirmative shopping' is the best description for getting burgled I ever heard though!
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-12-04 04:58
Hey, kaz, sorry to hear about that. Yeah, I've experienced "affirmative shopping" a time or 2 myself. Glad they left your computer, though. I'm also glad to have found a local fan. Seems not a lot of us pop up on the internet. I usually get some of the eps sooner than most over here (I work in IT, so I know people ;-) ), but I spend a bunch of time here reading what everyone has to say. I've been a fan since the show first started here, but before it became as popular as it is now, so it was a bitch to actually find dvd's to catch up back then, though I own them all now and have already convinced a family member to buy me season 7 for Christmas...
I'm pretty sure there's more to Sammy's story than they're letting on right now, and I've always loved the guessing, so I'm completely content to wait it out and see what happens. I like that SPN isn't predictable. I think my favourite theory is that all/part of Sam's relationship with Amelia isn't true, it's one of the first things I considered.
st50
# st50 2012-11-29 14:32
I love that the episode title is the plural form of the label that popped up under Dean (Hunterus Heroicus)...
It did take all 3 of them this time!
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-11-29 16:01
Alright, did a rewatch and everything I stated earlier holds up.

I love it.

I love how Dean and Sam work together perfectly. I love how Sam has this patient loving smile, whenever Dean is doing something deany.

I love the flashbacks and how Sam massages the scar, when he talks to Amelias Dad.
And it´s so sad, how lost Sam looks. But here, he already got that far away feeling, like Sam has withdrawn so far inside himself, that nothing can really touch him anymore.
And Im beginning to suspect, the lack of real passionate chemistry between him and Amelia is intenionally.
Like, they´re not really in love, they´re just two survivers, all that´s left, holding on to each other to stay afloat.

But if Sam in this episode is making me sad... Cas is outright killing me.
And not in a good way. Was ist funny? yes, maybe.
But the laughter always stuck in my throat.

it broke my heart, to see, how he tried to fit in with Sam and Dean. How he copied them, howhe tried to belong.
And never truly got it right.

They´re well and truly all, that he has left.
And he´s like a little boy, trying to fit in, begging silently, that they don´t kick him out. And with trying to act, as he thinks, they like it... he´s just alienating them.

All they want, is for him to be Cas. And Cas is trying to be a Dean copy.

And that last scene? right after Sam remembered, Don coming back?
So lost and... just lost... and Cas has this gentle, happy smile on his face, as he sits with Fred and just looks at home there?

Sam just remembered losing everything he has, all over again, and there is this distance between him and Dean, that they can´t seem to be able to bridge....and Cas is listening to Ode to Joy, if not happy, then at least at peace for the moment?


Alright, I admit... I cried.
That fucking broke my heart!

For those who don´t know the translation of the German text:

www.ca-in-sapporo.com/interests/beethoven.html

Post scriptum: I love theory 3! I totally love that!
vivian
# vivian 2012-11-30 10:49
Lovely post, Fluffy2107, thank you!
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-29 21:25
Here are a few things I noticed:
The orderly in the old folks home has what looks a lot like a djinn tattoo - why? If tattoos are not relevant to the show they are usually covered up - but not in his case.

Sam didn't open the book of photographs and he was gone before Amelia's husband came back. Sam doesn't know what Amelia's husband looks like - why does that suddenly seem like it might be important?

The callbacks to old episodes are interesting. And yet again the solution is the opposite of what would have seemed right to either Sam or Dean previously - in this case the telekenetic guy who, (in Dean's world anyway) would be categorized the 'freak', shoots the doctor, who IS a bad guy but is fully human and wasn't actually an imminent danger to anyone – they aren’t usually fair game for hunters. That doesn't follow any of the normal SPN rules.

And recurring actors – ok there are only so many tv actors to go around, and maybe SPN recycles people all the time and it isn’t obvious and maybe it is easier to work with people who have been on the show before…but this seems like a lot of recurring actors:
Episode 1 Ty Olson
Episode 2 Mr Vili / The Reaper (Faith), Samandriel / Matt Pike (bugs)
Episode 3 Detective Pike / Newscaster (Weekend at Bobbys), Paul Hayes / Superintendent (no Exit), Officer Levitt / Roger (the Rapture)
Episode 4 – none
Episode 5 Mike Carpenter (though that probably doesn’t count - it being Mike Carpenter and all)
Episode 6 Mary Lew / Mrs Tanner (Croatoan), Dave Wright / Deputy Doug Wallace (Faith), Chester Lew / uncredited (Folsom Prison Blues)
Episode 7 (actor) Douglas Newell – neither one of his characters are listed on IMDB (Supernatural Christmas)
Episode 8 Amelia’s Father/ Jerry Panowski (Phantom Traveler)

If Sam were hallucinating, then he might populate those hallucinations with people he met at different times? Sam has met all of the actors / characters that had big enough roles to remember.

Of course doing a 'Bobby in the Shower' with (say) half a season of episodes would be a very good way to annoy lots of viewers...

Red Dwarf did an entire season in a computer game though - that seemed to work out ok.
Darya
# Darya 2012-11-29 23:30
I do feel like Sam not knowing what Don looks like could be important for some reason. And it really doesn't make sense that he's using his real name. "Winchester" isn't the same as the next Smith or Johnson...are all these people living under a rock? Wouldn't you remember the names of a killer duo that was splashed all over the papers? Or are we really pretending that Season 7 never happened?

While I firmly believe that Amelia is real and everything we've been seeing is real too (the lighting a cool trick to contrast Purgatory) these little things throw me.
Scullspeare
# Scullspeare 2012-12-01 10:59
Quote:
And recurring actors – ok there are only so many tv actors to go around, and maybe SPN recycles people all the time and it isn’t obvious and maybe it is easier to work with people who have been on the show before…but this seems like a lot of recurring actors:
Episode 1 Ty Olson
Episode 2 Mr Vili / The Reaper (Faith), Samandriel / Matt Pike (bugs)
Episode 3 Detective Pike / Newscaster (Weekend at Bobbys), Paul Hayes / Superintendent (no Exit), Officer Levitt / Roger (the Rapture)
Episode 4 – none
Episode 5 Mike Carpenter (though that probably doesn’t count - it being Mike Carpenter and all)
Episode 6 Mary Lew / Mrs Tanner (Croatoan), Dave Wright / Deputy Doug Wallace (Faith), Chester Lew / uncredited (Folsom Prison Blues)
Episode 7 (actor) Douglas Newell – neither one of his characters are listed on IMDB (Supernatural Christmas)
Episode 8 Amelia’s Father/ Jerry Panowski (Phantom Traveler)

If Sam were hallucinating, then he might populate those hallucinations with people he met at different times? Sam has met all of the actors / characters that had big enough roles to remember.
I like this theory. And add to the list for Episode 8 Mrs Tate (the senior whose birthday cake blew up in her face). She was also the Hansel and Gretel witch in Season 3's Bedtime Stories.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-01 11:24
Was she really? Yes, the more people you add the less it looks like coincidence! I used IMDB to get a lot of these and there were only a couple of actors listed for this episode at the time - so thanks for that one! :D
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-29 21:30
Can someone tell me what it is about the way the bottles are being opened that is unusual? All I can see is someone with a bottle opener opening a bottle?
E
# E 2012-11-30 01:20
Do you mean when Amelia's father opened a bottle using his ring? Dean used to do that all the time until he ditched his ring in season 3 or 4...I thought that this was a great little shout out to past seasons.
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-30 03:29
No E, I've rewatched just now. The father is using a bottle opener in gold color. He is not using his ring at all. I think it's more like a shout out to the earlier scene in a gas station where Dean opens two beer and hand over one to Sam.
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-30 10:00
Yes, I was aware that Dean used open bottles with his ring - even Jensen mentioned it at one of the cons during the summer - he also said that he doesn't have that ring any more (I think). That was what I was looking for - and they didn't use it, Amelia's father used a bottle opener. And yes Dean used an opener of some sort at the beginning of the episode - I wondered was it the edge of a penknife?

I guess they were saying that Dean used to open the bottle for the person he was giving it to? Don't people usually do that?
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-30 03:28
I think it's referring to the earlier scene in a gas station when Dean opens the beer bottle. Although I don't think that's significant too. I mean we see Sam opens his own beer bottle before.

In S2 and S3 even we also see Sam opens a beer bottle for Dean when he was fixing the Impala. I think this scene is just invented by the writer to show that Sam remembers Dean in his flashback.

Well, a little too late. There are lots of things that SHOULD trigger Sam's memory of Dean because they live practically in each other's pocket their whole live. BUT we see none of it affected Sam in his flashback. We don't get to see Sam remembering Dean AT ALL during his flashback except the beer scene.

Instead we always see lots of things trigger Sam's flashback memory when he is with Dean.

This is what I call a disservice of Dean's memory in Sam's mind (flashback). The writers only TELL us that Sam is grieving Dean but not SHOW us the scene how Sam was grieving Dean. They don't give the brother's bond justice. We only get to see Sam chasing a girl. We don't get to SEE a scene where Sam was grieving and being a mess and a wreck like he claimed to be. It's just not fair. While Sam is remembering Amelia while he is with Dean, why didn't he remembered Dean when he was with her?

I am jealous.

Is this how they write Sam? The brother who just not care?
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-11-30 03:35
Quote:
I think it's referring to the earlier scene in a gas station when Dean opens the beer bottle. Although I don't think that's significant too. I mean we see Sam opens his own beer bottle before.

In S2 and S3 even we also see Sam opens a beer bottle for Dean when he was fixing the Impala. I think this scene is just invented by the writer to show that Sam remembers Dean in his flashback.

Well, a little too late. There are lots of things that SHOULD trigger Sam's memory of Dean because they live practically in each other's pocket their whole live. BUT we see none of it affected Sam in his flashback. We don't get to see Sam remembering Dean AT ALL during his flashback except the beer scene.

Instead we always see lots of things trigger Sam's flashback memory when he is with Dean.

This is what I call a disservice of Dean's memory in Sam's mind (flashback). The writers only TELL us that Sam is grieving Dean but not SHOW us the scene how Sam was grieving Dean. They don't give the brother's bond justice. We only get to see Sam chasing a girl. We don't get to SEE a scene where Sam was grieving and being a mess and a wreck like he claimed to be. It's just not fair. While Sam is remembering Amelia while he is with Dean, why didn't he remembered Dean when he was with her?

I am jealous.

Is this how they write Sam? The brother who just not care?
That seemed odd to me too.

Sam acknoledges Deans existence only two times in the FBs. Once, when he told Amelia, that Dean died, but that was just an explanation for his behaviour.
Before the beer bottle scene, he even said, the Impala had been his FATHERS car.
Only in that scene does he outright share something personal from his time with Dean, not, he existed and he died, but DEAN DID THIS TOO.
And it reminds me of Dean.

And next we know, Boom! Don´s alive.
Darya
# Darya 2012-11-30 03:58
You know, when people lose someone they're extremely close to, sometimes for periods of time they don't talk about that person at all. They don't say their names, or go into their rooms or touch their stuff. They go out of their way to completely and totally leave that wound alone, most often refusing to acknowledge the existence and importance of the one they've lost. I thought Sam was like that: talking about Dean only when he has to, hedging around the pain of losing him.

Both times he's mentioned Dean in the FBs, it was because he kind of had to. First to explain himself to Amelia. Second, not because of the beer bottles, but because Amelia's father was seeing right through him, asking him what he's running from. Considering that Amelia was his anchor, it makes sense why Sam would want acceptance from her father. Not getting any acceptance is Sam's life story, mostly.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-11-30 04:06
Quote:
You know, when people lose someone they're extremely close to, sometimes for periods of time they don't talk about that person at all. They don't say their names, or go into their rooms or touch their stuff. They go out of their way to completely and totally leave that wound alone, most often refusing to acknowledge the existence and importance of the one they've lost. I thought Sam was like that: talking about Dean only when he has to, hedging around the pain of losing him.

Both times he's mentioned Dean in the FBs, it was because he kind of had to. First to explain himself to Amelia. Second, not because of the beer bottles, but because Amelia's father was seeing right through him, asking him what he's running from. Considering that Amelia was his anchor, it makes sense why Sam would want acceptance from her father. Not getting any acceptance is Sam's life story, mostly.
Which puts Sam´s "I ran" in a really good perspective.
Perhaps, not only acknowledging, that Dean had existed, but finally acknoledging that something reminds him of his brother. Being able to go down that road, triggered something inportant. Like the ability to face it, to get up and look at the fact, that he had lost Dean. That Dean was truly gone. Just as Crowley had said.
And That made him able to step back into the world. Literally or figuratively.

Kind of... a beautiful thougtht.

But I still find it odd, that right at that moment came the info: Don is back
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-11-30 04:08
I agree Darya, and if I'm remembering correctly, Dean seemed to be doing the same thing in EOMS, when he was talking to his friend/neighbou r in the bar, I kept expecting him to mention Sam, but he never did. I got the feeling the guy didn't even know Dean had brother, although I may have to rewatch to make sure, I don't think it's odd that Sam might not have spoken about Dean that much.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-11-30 04:11
Quote:
I agree Darya, and if I'm remembering correctly, Dean seemed to be doing the same thing in EOMS, when he was talking to his friend/neighbour in the bar, I kept expecting him to mention Sam, but he never did. I got the feeling the guy didn't even know Dean had brother, although I may have to rewatch to make sure, I don't think it's odd that Sam might not have spoken about Dean that much.
Which... Am I the only one to think it´s totally odd, that Dean says:

"You don´t take a joint from a guy named Don and there´s no dogs in the car?"

I mean..: REALLY?!
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-30 04:21
OMG Fluffy2107!!! I completely forget about it.

OMG! Sam really has taken a 'joint' from a guy named DON. Taking his wife!

WTH !
Darya
# Darya 2012-11-30 04:24
OMG, meta! That is so meta :D
How did everyone forget that?
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-11-30 04:44
Quote:
OMG Fluffy2107!!! I completely forget about it.

OMG! Sam really has taken a 'joint' from a guy named DON. Taking his wife!

WTH !
But how did Dean know?

How could he have known?
uhm?
So, what´s really going on here?
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-30 11:34
No. I don't think that Dean knows anything about the Vet too. But as Carver said it before that it's more like Dean's lifeism. That means Dean have said it before during Sam's life. "Hey you know the rules ..." That also means Sam have heard that statement more than once in his life and consider it just Dean's way. That also means Sam could very well incorporate that lifeism of Dean into his Dreamworld. Creating a guy named Don that Dean said he is supposed to avoid.
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-30 04:15
I Know What You Did Last Summer showed us how awful Sam was without Dean in just one episode. I admit it's not enough to explain Sam's reason to follow Ruby's manipulation but still it's more than what we get this season.

We just see how Sam lived in a fairy tale world. Where is the mess? Where is the grieving? Where is the scene that depicts Sam's world imploded and raining down on him? Where is the months after the lab scene and the dog scene?

These flashback is useless and just dragging down Sam's story. And what impression that it serves? Just to show that Sam somehow more care about her that about Dean.

We see lots of her flashback but we don't get to see Dean's flashback in Sam's last year. You know they can write sometime when Amelia and Sam was eating pie, Sam remembered Dean and said that pie was Dean's fav food and talked about his brother.

When Amelia asked why he touched up the Impala very often, Sam would say that that's what his brother used to do.

When they were watching TV and Sam suddenly smiles. Amelia asked why, then Sam explained that the old movie was Dean's fetish.

Lot's of memory of Dean in Sam's whole life. I repeat his whole life. But we don't get to see it manifesting in Sam's numerous flashback, as a trigger or something. Sam should have ran away to China if he really wanted to run away from Dean's memory because everything around him (if he still stayed in the same country) would remind him of Dean

Sorry, as I write this I am starting to hate those flashbacks. Why is it only last night's writer that put Dean's memory in Sam's flashback. Is the other writers don't think it's important?
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-30 04:52
But we only have one episode and not entirely in that episode is talking about Dean's life in which Dean was having his own life with Lisa. . Sam showed up in the later half. OTOH we have more of these flashbacks compared to Dean's flashback life with Lisa in S6.

There are lots of ground for the writers to slip just a tiny details of Dean's in Sam's FB. I mean when Sam was watching TV in motel and there was an old diehard movie and he quickly change the channel. When he was in grocery story and saw pie and he quickly leave the store altogether. Things like that. Sam still lives in America, there are lots of things that could remind him of Dean if he's still there. It's kind of inevitable. That is of course IF the writers really are being serious about writing Sam 'running away'. Sam should have run to China or India if he really wanted to run. But they just said it like in passing. "My world imploded and I ran" That's it. No scenes whatsoever describing how horrible that experience was for Sam.

I mean the different in quantity should have better quality.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-11-30 05:31
Yes, I agree there was really the only one. It was just an impression I got from the conversation Dean had with that guy that made me wonder if he spoke about Sam much during that year, and it's stuck with me, so I felt like it made a fair comparison to Sam maybe not really talking about Dean that mcuh.
Darya
# Darya 2012-11-30 05:36
*extreme shallowness*
Ooh, yes, he could run to India. I'd be very happy if he did.

I think the Don line is just a jokey foreshadowing, like in Hullo Cruel World when the warehouse Sam went into said "Morning Star Endeavors" symbolizing Lucifer. SPN does that. I think Dean doesn't actually know anything. But the timing of the phone call does make me wonder....
alysha
# alysha 2012-11-29 21:36
I have to say that Don's return confuses me. So when Amelia heard her husband "died" nine months before, she just had a funeral with an empty coffin? I'm not sure about all of that. It's one thing to be MIA, but if Don was confirmed dead, where was the body?
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-30 03:35
Hi alysha,

I think she said that her husband was missing in a fire. The military perhaps just assumed he's dead. I think it's implied somehow.
E
# E 2012-11-30 21:37
Its not that far fetched to assume that there would be no body in a war... soldiers were/are obliterated by bombs and explosions all the time during war and empty caskets were/are buried to symbolize internment and to help the families cope with their loss. Think of the many families of the 911 tragedy who had to bury an empty casket because no traces of their loved ones were ever found?
luciano
# luciano 2012-11-30 04:29
(Edited by Alice) - Moved this to our Fandom Page. Promoting facebook pages isn't allowed in the episode comments.
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-30 07:07
No. I don't think that Dean knows anything about the Vet too. But as Carver said it before that it's more like Dean's lifeism. That means Dean have said it before during Sam's life. "Hey you know the rules ..." That also means Sam have heard that statement more than once in his life and consider it just Dean's way. That also means Sam could very well incorporate that lifeism of Dean into his Dreamworld. Creating a guy named Don that Dean said he is supposed to avoid.

"Don't take a joint from a guy named Don and no dogs in the car." Sam had broken Dean's rules. Judging by how heavy the Vet is resembling Dean and how dreamy the FB is, they only serves to hit Sam in the head about how wrong is what he was doing, by running away, by not looking for Dean, by just giving up .

Further cementing the idea that the writer wants us to think that Sam is just a weak guy who will be sent into a tailspin the moment Dean's gone. Sam's dream about having a life without Dean is all lies because apparently in reality he can't survive alone without his brother. Cas situation is also resembling Sam's. Cas says he is afraid that he'll kill himself if he knows goes to heaven. Perhaps Sam too is suicidal and afraid to end up killing himself . Heartache definitely alludes that idea.

Me OTOH would rather think that Sam is stronger than that. He survived Lucifer, albeit by holding on to his stone number one, and he is smart and resourceful and more reasonable than Dean sometimes.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-11-30 08:48
If I compare the flashbacks to the real time and if, what we think, is true, than it absolutely doesn´t paint Sam as weak.

Because if it really was just illusions and he had a breakdown, he dug himself out of it, all by himself.
No Dean, no angel, only Sam crawling his way back to the world, he didn´t want to face.
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-11-30 09:06
He's done that before, though. That's pretty much exactly what happened when he reintegrated and fought his way out of his coma in 6.22. I'm not sure I see what the point would be of repeating that, especially in flashback form so there's no tension about the outcome.

To be honest, I think there's a lot of badly paced and clunky storytelling here, whether Sam's story is 'human' or supernatural. The whole flashback device is breaking up the narrative so much I'm not getting a clear emotional arc either in the past or the present (and that goes for Dean as well as Sam), let alone a rich and interesting connection between the two. A lot of the individual episodes have had some quite solid and interesting stuff, and I do enjoy Sam in a sweater, but the way the season is fitting together is a big let down to me -- I don't think it works as a build, either for a surprise reveal or for a simpler character arc.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-11-30 09:18
Quote:
He's done that before, though. That's pretty much exactly what happened when he reintegrated and fought his way out of his coma in 6.22. I'm not sure I see what the point would be of repeating that, especially in flashback form so there's no tension about the outcome.

To be honest, I think there's a lot of badly paced and clunky storytelling here, whether Sam's story is 'human' or supernatural. The whole flashback device is breaking up the narrative so much I'm not getting a clear emotional arc either in the past or the present (and that goes for Dean as well as Sam), let alone a rich and interesting connection between the two. A lot of the individual episodes have had some quite solid and interesting stuff, and I do enjoy Sam in a sweater, but the way the season is fitting together is a big let down to me -- I don't think it works as a build, either for a surprise reveal or for a simpler character arc.
He did that for Dean. But here wouldn´t be no Dean.
Dean is dead... at least, that´s what he thinks
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-11-30 09:37
But he still believes that the flashbacks are real after Dean's return, so he hasn't broken through into reality without Dean at all, if the flashbacks aren't real. He was cyberstalking Amelia in 8.5, checking up on her credit record; he was insisting that the girl had a name and that they'd had a place in Kermit, Texas in 8.6. I suppose it's conceivable that 8.8 was supposed to be Sam in present time gradually realizing that the whole thing had been a dream, but if so they didn't really show that. Unless the whole action we've seen so far this season is in Sam's head, in which case he'd have to be imagining Dean's purgatory flashbacks, and, for that matter, the Benny POV material we've had. Which would certainly infuriate the audience, because it would mean we'd gotten through a good chunk of the season without any real story for Dean or Cas at all.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-11-30 09:42
Quote:
But he still believes that the flashbacks are real after Dean's return, so he hasn't broken through into reality without Dean at all, if the flashbacks aren't real. He was cyberstalking Amelia in 8.5, checking up on her credit record; he was insisting that the girl had a name and that they'd had a place in Kermit, Texas in 8.6. I suppose it's conceivable that 8.8 was supposed to be Sam in present time gradually realizing that the whole thing had been a dream, but if so they didn't really show that. Unless the whole action we've seen so far this season is in Sam's head, in which case he'd have to be imagining Dean's purgatory flashbacks, and, for that matter, the Benny POV material we've had. Which would certainly infuriate the audience, because it would mean we'd gotten through a good chunk of the season without any real story for Dean or Cas at all.
Mirrors, within mirrors, within mirrors....

IF.. it is so...

I think he would have gradually, from the first episode onward stepped back into reality.
Or finally believed, that the reality was reality.

Do I make sense?
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-11-30 10:04
Well, if Sam is only stepping back into reality gradually, starting with Dean's return, it does argue against the idea that Sam's ability to return to reality independent of Dean is what would differentiate this hypothetical storyline from 6.22. And I find it very hard to believe that a Sam who was still actively hallucinating enough to imagine the cyberstalking would be perfectly functional on hunts; if so, it's a repeat of some of the worst storytelling decisions of s7.

But I don't think it's that your thoughts aren't interesting potentials, I think it's that the story isn't well constructed, whatever is behind it, and the fan theories aren't enough to turn it into something elegant and subtle. Which maybe does argue for it being something supernatural, because this season feels like a hot mess the way Lost turned into a hot mess, more than the way a soap opera is a hot mess. But my money is actually still more at the face value end of things.
E
# E 2012-11-30 22:00
etheldred, I am sorry that the current story construct isn't working for you. I actually feel the opposite. I am really loving the FB's and find them very compelling and emotionally gratifying for both boys and Cas as well. I also love the mystery/puzzle aspect surrounding both Sam and Cas's stories and am waiting to see how all of the threads fit together. This may be a bit spoilery;

** Jensen said in a recent interview that all of the story bits do, in fact, fit together and he then called it "good story telling". Jared went on to say that some of what is coming up will set up the story arc for the next few seasons. **

I am waiting to see how it all plays out and still have hope that it will be compelling and satisfying for all characters. :D
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-30 11:32
I just can't help but comparing it with Time and Time Again.
The situation is the same. At initial incident, Sam didn't know who took Dean. He just know that he disappeared with the red lights.

- Dean disappeared in red lights, Dean disappeared in black goo
- Dean was gone along with a monster (Sam didn't know what monster it was at the time), Dean disappeared with Roman. (He knows Roman is a Levis and the worst one of possibilities are Roman ends up in Purgatory, perhaps so was Dean)
-Sam has small clue on the red lighted monster, Sam has small clue about God's weapon, perhaps the only clue is Kevin but Crowley got Kevin. Next logical step, track Crowley to find Kevin. Find Kevin ask for God's weapon. Perhaps then find a clue about Dean's whereabouts.

The difference is in TATA Sam didn't give up on Dean. He held on and he investigate. I am just asking what is it that so different from those two scenario above? Why can't Sam just investigate and looking?

Why would the writer choose to write a Sam that is running away? It's OOC. Sam's been in a wrench before. There got to be something happening that makes Sam just give up. Writing a Sam that has a breakdown is not enough answer for his OOC behavior.

If they want a breakdown Sam, TATA would be a perfect place for that. He was under Hallucifer influence. You can't get more crazy than that. I never found anyone hallucinating Lucifer and still sane. But Sam stays sane that time and still find a strength to research and to investigate Dean's disappearance. That has to count, man. That has to.

This time, there is no reason for Sam to just give up. He's not under Lucifer hallucination, had plenty of leads, had access to Bobby's books. How come Sam's world didn't implode and rain down on him when Chronos took Dean? Is it because the episode was in the middle of a season? And they can't get Dean out for good?

See, the more I think about it, the more the writer's decision to make Sam not looking for Dean for whatever reason they are showing us now is not a good decision. It only serves to make Sam OOC.

I'd like to see that during the few months right after the lab scene, Sam did trying to look for Dean. He tried every way he could think of but failed. THEN and only Then Sam gave up and finally have a breakdown. Or maybe someone told Sam that Dean was dean and in heaven. Right then I would believe that Sam had a breakdown.

Because I also believe that If Chronos didn't return with Dean at that time, I strongly believe that Sam would be having a major breakdown, perhaps full on insane due to Lucfer's hallucination.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-30 13:41
New spoilers on Sam and Amelia by Kristen www.eonline.com/news/367217/spoiler-chat-scoop-on-glee-supernatural-american-horror-story-parks-and-rec-and-more. If true this is by far the worst, most unsupernatural storyline ever and I have no idea what the show is becoming. I do know that it is not the show I have watched for years and if true it totally trashes any confidence that I have held onto for the writers. I just can't even.

Oh and the trashing of Sam is complete. The trashing of the basis of the show is complete. I don't want [spoiler]Gossip Supernatural[/s poiler].
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-30 13:55
As with everything to do with Supernatural the words 'of sorts' mean that that entire spoiler boils down to 'we are not going to tell you anything'.
Since Sam is living with Amelia and Don is coming home - that is a 'love triangle' right there. Or it could be Amelia who doesn't want Sam to leave and Sam won't remain involved with someone who is married and clearly still loves her husband.
A love triangle (with no qualifier) on the other hand would be Mills and Boon.

EDIT: Mills and Boon is like Harlequin books in the US if you aren't familiar with the name
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-30 14:11
They had Sam not look for Dean. They had Sam not care that Dean isn't dead. They are making it a love triangle. They are having Sam fight for Amelia, a character they haven't developed, against her husband a returning war veteran who gave his all for his country. Sam is slated to become a home wrecker. I'm sure they will have him kick Riot and drown a few kittens along the way just so we know where Sam stands morally.
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-30 14:17
Ok, I have nothing more to say about this. I am sorry you feel that way.
E
# E 2012-11-30 22:33
Ah, I am sorry percysowner, but I am going to have to agree with eilf on this one; we don't know anything yet. Spoilers are notoriously designed to mislead, inflame, stir up emotions and get people hot and bothered, and this show's spoilers have always been particularly misleading. Supernatural as a show has never gone the easy or predictable route on anything, often turning conventional story tropes on their heads, so I am expecting something outside the box at the very least.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-30 22:54
I hope you are both right. I am simply losing hope that the writers will give a Sam POV that I can relate to. The first part of this season has not been one I have enjoyed. I would express the hope that things will change in a way that I enjoy, but the writers are going to do what they are going to do. Thank you for your encouraging words.
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-02 04:43
Percysowner, I love Sam's character flawed as it is. Am not sure what is happening in detail in season 8 as Africa will only get this show in about 2 years, so will have to wait for the box set. However :) I feel that the relationship is not doomed. It would take one episode to get it back on track. I agree, we need to see Sam's perspective from a raw, emotional pov. I am hoping that Sam rescues Dean in some way, say from Benny who turns out not to be trustworthy which will
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-02 04:46
oops which will demonstrate to Dean that the only person he can truly rely on is family. Have u noticed that Dean doesn't say anything about 'family' anymore. I love Benny but if I hear him calling Dean brother one more time. PS he still calls Sam sammy. Have faith and keep on watching the show. Season 8 and only 2 more to go. U nearly there :)
hades
# hades 2012-11-30 14:28
that sounds like typical Kristen crap to me, totally made up based on what happened in the last episode. Also Don being back doesnt mean Sam's normal wasnt some kind of dream.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-11-30 14:34
Quote:
that sounds like typical Kristen crap to me, totally made up based on what happened in the last episode. Also Don being back doesnt mean Sam's normal wasnt some kind of dream.
Maybe but there could be a element of truth in it after all Don returning isnt to babysit Riot and has much has I would love disturbed Sam living in made up land I dont think that was ever the intention. They wanted 'normal ' for Sam and here it is.
RMF
# RMF 2012-11-30 14:51
Ick. I hate love triangles and quarterback controversies. Aren't there any monsters left that need killing?
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-30 15:13
What is a quarterback controversy? Is it like being a monday-morning quarterback? :-)
RMF
# RMF 2012-11-30 17:09
Heh. No, it's when there are two strong candidates for starting quarterback, and the debate over which one should be chosen goes on and on and on....
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-30 17:19
Ok, thanks, never heard that phrase before but I see what you mean.

I never thought I would say this but I am beginning to miss monster of the week episodes myself...they used write conversations and interactions for the boys in MOTW episodes - I liked those days *sigh* - you could skip past the splat and watch the other stuff..

Having said that the only two pieces of splattiness in the entire series that I HAVE to skip over because they are too gross are the guy with his arm in the waste disposal and the guy who ate twinkies to death...
lala2
# lala2 2012-11-30 15:24
Ugh . . . . who in the world wants to watch a LOVE TRIANGLE on Supernatural (of all shows) involving two people I couldn't possibly care less about (Amelia and Don)?!?!?!?!

Is Carver for real? This is really what he's done to Sam Winchester. SMH . . . . what a shame! This show is really slipping at this point!
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2012-12-04 12:26
I second your 'ugh' - I'm not watching Supernatural for the romance, I'm watching it for the Winchester brothers hunting things and saving people. If I wanted a show about romantic love and relationships à la soap operas, I'd watch a soap opera.

I really enjoyed the first series of the BBC's 'Being Human' (Carver was involved in writing the US version of this, wasn't he?) because in the first series the show stuck to its mission statement of 3 supernatural people trying to live normal lives without hurting ordinary people. But then, from the second series onwards, I felt that the show became all about romantic relationships for the characters which meant the cool world-building and sci-fi elements took a back seat. I stopped watching because of that change in the show's emphasis and I'm really hoping that Carver isn't planning to do the same sort of thing with Supernatural.

I genuinely prefer Sam and Dean having stunted romantic lives because it makes sense given their upbringing and the lives they live, and, frankly, it also makes the show work better.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-11-30 13:44
Oh lordy not exciting is it.
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-30 14:09
Hi Sharon, sorry, did my response to percysowner make you change your post or was it just coincidence? I just meant that we shouldn't freak out about a love story triangle just yet - I wasn't arguing that it wouldn't be a M&B situation if they did go that way...
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-11-30 14:11
No not at all just timing :-)
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-30 14:13
Oh good, that's ok then :D I suddenly realized that when I mention Mills and Boon here I get very blank looks...
E
# E 2012-11-30 22:51
Ok people, cool your jets; we don't know anything at this point about this 'love triangle' spoiler other than what some rumor mill has generated to stir up viewers. Getting all worked up over a proposed storyline seems a little silly. All of this sturm und drang over one line in gossip rag on a show notorious for messing with and misleading it's fans? Maybe we could wait until we see what ACTUALLY happens? Then we can tear it up and tear it down! :lol:
dinkwerks
# dinkwerks 2012-12-01 12:22
In agreement with E....think Carver and Company are just toying with the fan base to see how worked up they can get them. :-*
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-02 09:08
Just love the fact that SN fans are sooo protective of their boys
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-04 07:22
Just had another look at the Amelia/Sam/Dad dinner scene, and it occurs to me that Sam's pov is sidelined for Amelia and her dead/not dead husband. Amelia's Dad speaks to the audience on her behalf, and again poor old Sam is misunderstood and sidelined. Crowley was right, he REALLY IS all alone, even with Dean at his side. I do think he is protecting or hiding something tho (whether it is his mental state, or angel/demon/luc ifer? influence). The only way Sam not looking for Dean/Kevin would be acceptable was if he was protecting them somehow. And just who says that Lucifer has gone?
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2012-12-04 12:44
I agree, kaz, we are getting much more insight into Amelia and her Dad in those scenes than we are getting into Sam (and it's his flashback so he should get top priority in it, shouldn't he?! ;-)

I'm really hoping that Sam's life with Amelia was some sort of hallucination or the result of something supernatural because otherwise it's the most boring plot Sam's been part of. If I compare "Sam's adventures in having a domestic life with Amelia" to "Dean's attempt to have a settled life with Lisa and Ben":

- I didn't mind watching Dean having a settled home-life for the first parts of S6 because his living situation came about a) as a result of a promise he made to a dying Sam, b) because it served to show he wasn't settling down in a normal life well, and c) because it didn't last very long and Dean went back to hunting (and Sam) because it's all he knows and it's all he wants. So, Dean's adventures in domesticity made sense within the framework of the show and within the framework of the character.

- I don't enjoy Sam's decision to settle down with an angry woman, and a dog, as an alternative to looking for Dean (for some tenuous reason or other, I'm not convinced by the show's reasons for Sam's decision so far) and I don't understand why Sam does this despite resolving in earlier seasons that he had given up on the idea of living a settled, normal life because he wanted to be a Hunter. To me, Sam's entire relationship with Amelia makes no sense within the framework of the character or within the framework of the show.

So, in summary :-) I really hope that Sam's flashbacks (and year of domesticity) are hallucinations of some kind, or that he was being manipulated into doing it, because, if this isn't the case, then Sam Winchester is not very interesting and he makes no sense to me this season. Which is a very upsetting thing for me to say because I have always found both Winchester brothers to be fascinating characters (even during S4, the season I hated with the fire of 1,000 Suns :D).
Izanamii
# Izanamii 2012-12-04 13:01
I agree with that about Dean. That seemed to be a point a lot of people overlooked when Dean was taken over by the spirit and said all those things. We still have no real, legitimate idea why Sam did not look for Dean. But then there's the fact that he didn't seem surprised to see Dean and seemed to know he was back.

There is definitely something more to these flashbacks, but I don't think they are hallucinations. I think that Sam's story is being focused on, and he's being avoided right now because there's going to be a big reveal crucial to the plot and it will be impacting.

There is the manipulation factor. This season is all about perception, so I think there is a great deal of manipulation being thrown around.
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-04 16:28
Oh my word Izanamii you are so on the button. I am so happy that someone else thinks that the writers have a beeeeeg reveal. Hope hope and hope some more (my pandora's box is stuffed) that they don't let my poor Sam down. He needs to be understood now. Pretty please
Izanamii
# Izanamii 2012-12-04 17:18
They have just been so damn cryptic with it! It's driving me crazy because I still don't have a solidified opinion on what is going on. I think manipulation is what they're going for. Either that, or Sam's mind is turning on him yet again, but Amelia and the dog are real. There are just so many holes in these flashbacks and I just can't peg it to bad writing because if that were the case, why have these extensive flashbacks to begin with? It would be a waste! They could have had a couple and called it done for now until they needed them again, but they keep showing us those so I'm assuming there is something going on. They are just taking their sweet time revealing what it is.

I have a feeling they're going to give us a nasty cliff hanger about Sam tomorrow night. Baha.
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-04 16:38
I know right Ciar. Sam's ... well I don't even know what to call it.. lapse in judgement/chara cter/presence even.. is not sitting well with me. I love the way J is playing it in some parts (he's got the sad empty look perfect, yet in other parts J is just bland). I am sure that this is how he is meant to be playing the part. But bcz we don't have ANY background on Sam, poor old J is beginning to show thru the facade if u understand what I mean. To me that is how thin Sam has become. He went to hell, faced Lucifer, demons, Lilith/every kind of MOTW & Dean's brusque manner on a weekly basis for heavens sake and here is is taking jip from someones bald father. Uh Uh not buying this.