For those that missed part one, that can be found here:  

http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/index.php/archive-articles/38-dean-winchester/17919-a-deeper-look-at-supernatural-season-eight-dean-winchester-part-one 

In the second half of season two, Dean became more focused as ever in his quest to close the gates of Hell.  He also became a bit of a serial hugger, but we didn't mind one bit!  

His role though ended up taking a direction he never anticipated but one he's grown quite familiar with - caretaker.  Destiny chose his little brother for this quest rather than him, and it became his job to keep Sam alive and somewhat well during the brutal trials.  Anyone who doesn't think that Dean didn't do much in the second half of the season might see otherwise after going through each episode.  He really was the glue that held everything together.  Dean was the one who had to decide, is their mission against Hell worth the ultimate sacrifice, his brother's life?  While the answer is not surprising, the path to getting there was worth every second to a viewer.    

As Time Goes By

AST015
I hated Dean's characterization in this one.  I thought he was too bull headed with Henry Winchester and way too harsh on a guy that he really didn't know the whole story about.  He wouldn't even try to give him the benefit of the doubt, and I just think Dean is more open minded than that.  He was all over the map with double standards too.  He chastised Henry for not choosing family and then got on his case when Henry decided to go back and make things right?  A lot of his actions, or overreactions, regarding his attitude toward family were cliche, and that kind of pissed me off. 

Aside from my misgivings though, it's obvious Henry's presence triggered something that had been stewing inside Dean for a while.  He doesn't appreciate anyone that doesn't put family first.  He even defends John to Sam, after Sam rightfully points out that John was hardly father of the year.  "Look, Dad had his issues, okay, but he was always there for us."  So, even though what may have happened to Henry wasn't his fault, because John was angry at Henry his whole life, that meant that Dean got to carry on that resentment no questions asked.  Ugh.  

Anyway, Dean acted out, not really giving Henry a chance, until they had to work together to save Sam.  Because no matter what, Sam will always be his greatest priority.  "Henry, you need to understand something. When my dad died, I couldn't save him... no matter how bad I wanted to. I never want that to happen to Sam... ever. If there's a chance that I can save him, I'm gonna do it. He's my brother. He's the only family I got."  Henry understood, and suddenly they were all on the same page, just in time for Henry to die.  

The ending shot couldn't be more appropriate though, and that's where the characterization begins to shape up again.  Two brothers, side by side, sharing another family loss, recognizing that all they have is each other.  This time though, there's a family legacy involved, and they need to go check it out.  

Everybody Hates Hitler

"Sammy, I think we found the Bat Cave."  

Oh, this is much better, the real Dean Winchester.  I'm so glad he's back.  Unlike Sam, who's seeing this whole Men of Letters bunker to be a break that they've deserved for oh so long, a valuable resource to help them fight demons and other creatures, Dean isn't buying into the whole thing.  He's having more fun with the perks of the Men of Letter's bunker, like the fantastic water pressure, the robe, and the fun (yet very sharp) weapons.  

EH032

Oh yes, there was some fun done at Dean's expense, the whole Aaron hitting on him at the bar to cover his tracks.  "I thought I was being followed earlier.  Turned out to be a gay thing."  Hee, sorry, but I thought the whole thing was hilarious myself.  It's a lighter side of Dean we sorely missed.  

It isn't until his encounter with Aaron and the Golem that Dean understands, they have legacies to uphold.  He sees that Sam has easily embraced the responsibility, and finds that to be a big step in the right direction.  The end of the episode is just pure joy for a fan.  

"So, uh, what? Aaron's a J.I., and you're a Man of Letters now? Is that it? (He pours scotch from a decanter on one of the bookshelves and sets a glass down in front of Sam).  Good."

Trial and Error

Things are looking up finally for Dean.  He has his own room!  He's decorated it with a few artifacts, and he even has a memory foam mattress now.  "It remembers me."  The most notable decoration in his room though is a picture of him and Mary on his desk that he's been carrying in his wallet.  Even Sam is really touched by the display.  

Despite his approval for Sam taking on this new family legacy, Dean isn't seeing himself following that path.  When Kevin tells them about the three trials, Dean decides he's the one doing them.  He doesn't tell this to Sam until later, but rationale is both perfect, yet very sad.  It's reminiscent of season two Dean, who just made a deal for his soul in order to get his brother back.  

And you told me yourself that you see a way out. You see a light at the end of this ugly-ass tunnel. I don't. But I tell you what I do know -- it's that I'm gonna die with a gun in my hand. 'Cause that's what I have waiting for me -- that's all I have waiting for me. I want you to get out. I want you to have a life -- become a man of Letters, whatever. You, with a wife and kids and -- and -- and grandkids, living till you're fat and bald and chugging Viagra -- that is my perfect ending, and it's the only one that I'm gonna get. So I'm gonna do these trials. I'm gonna do them alone -- end of story. You're staying here. I'm going out there. If landshark comes knocking, you call me. If you try to follow me, I'm gonna put a bullet in your damn leg.

Dean takes on the hellhound, ready to take his spot with destiny, but the hellhound bests him.  It's Sam that comes in and kills the beast in order to save Dean, and now Sam has to do to the trials.  Dean is so against this he's willing to kill another hellhound himself to that he can do the trials, but Sam won't hear of it.  Dean has plenty of reasons to live.  He just got his own room for one.  Mostly though, Sam thinks his brother is a genius, and the best hunter he's ever seen, even better than John.  Sam isn't going to die either, so together they will take on this trial and live.  Dean agrees, but he's not really confident about the whole thing after Sam doubles over in agony after completing the trial spell.  His worried face says it all, something is not right here.  

icandothis2


Man's Best Friend With Benefits

Any Dean canon that was presented in this completely atrocious episode can be forgotten and dismissed.  That pretty much goes for Sam too, and just about anything that ever happened.  Let's put our fingers in our ears and say "LA, LA, LA, I can't hear you, this episode never happened, LA, LA, LA."  

Remember The Titans

Perhaps it was Sam's pep talk, but suddenly Dean is all into the Men of Letters thing.  It's really cool, and while in "Everybody Hates Hitler" I saw Sam easily carrying on the legacy, this was the first time I saw Dean taking on this role too.  It fits him well.  He was rather prideful with Prometheus and Hayley.  "It's a secret society.  This is actually their lair.  We are legacies.  No big deal."  

Dean knows something isn't right with Sam though, and he's worried.  So worried, he reaches out to the one being he knows can help.  Something might be up with Castiel right now and Dean is having trouble trusting, but Dean's willing to take that risk to save Sam.  He still thinks this should have been on him, and he's not going to let anything happen to Sam if he can't help it.  Aww Dean, you really know how to hit our soft spots.  

Deanprays
Goodbye Stranger

Poor Dean.  He's never taken being lied to well, and when Castiel and Sam do it to him at the same time, it's a little more than he can take.  

Castiel is under control of Naomi, and trying to get over his strong feelings of friendship toward Dean is the primary goal.  The killing of hundreds of Deans is an effective method!  Upon coming across Sam and Dean, Castiel is forced to lie because Naomi says they can't be trusted.  Dean and Sam know he's off, but Sam reminds Dean, if he doesn't trust him, why is he praying to him?  Obviously Dean still believes in Castiel to do the right thing.  

It's also getting much harder for Sam to fool Dean these days.  Dean finds the bloody napkin, and knows Sam hasn't been quite himself.  He doesn't say anything though until a fit of frustration, and right in front of Castiel and Meg too.  When Castiel backs Dean on that one, Dean chooses to go with Castiel to find the crypt and leave Sam behind.  He does this partially out of anger but mostly out of concern.  Sam is safer staying behind, but it's hard for Sam to see that.  

Dean and Castiel find the tablet, but not before things go very, very wrong.  Castiel under the control of Naomi grabs the tablet from Dean and beats him to a pulp, but he can't kill him.  Dean, channeling his pleading techniques from "Swan Song," begs the real Castiel to come out.  "We're family.  We need you.  I need you."  Yep, that does it!  Once again, the angels underestimate the power of humanity.  Or in this case, Dean's amazing ability to get through by pleading.  There was no amount of preparation they could have done to have Castiel resist that.  The history is too deep.  

Deanpleads2

Unfortunately, Castiel may have spared Dean's life, but he takes the angel tablet and runs.  He needs to keep the angel tablet away from everyone, including Dean.  By the final scene with Sam, Dean has had it.  He can't take the lies and deception anymore from those he cares about.  At least Sam isn't bailing on him.  Sam promises to be honest from now on.  That's enough for Dean to channel his inner Lord of The Rings geek.  "Listen, I may not be able to carry the burden that comes along with these trials... But I can carry you."  It may be a cheesy reference, but that ends up being exactly what Dean does.  In a spectacular way. 

Freaks and Geeks

Dean is good with kids, and he wants to close the gates of Hell.  Great, tell us something we don't know.  I looked high and wide for any new lessons in this one, and didn't get any. 

Taxi Driver

Oh Dean.  I really felt his desperation.  He was unable to go with Sam and have his back, and that alone drove him crazy.  He was worried sick.  He wasn't buying anything Naomi was telling him about Castiel either, even if she was very convincing.  She even told Dean that the way to Hell was through Purgatory.  It showed how much he still believed in Castiel despite everything.  When Ajay was found dead though and he wouldn't be able to retrieve Sam in Purgatory, poor Dean had to make one of the toughest decisions in his life. 

When it came to Benny, Dean's guilt was already tearing him apart.  This was Sam though, and he's willing to do anything for Sam, including asking Benny to go back to Purgatory and guide Sam and Bobby to the portal.  That meant that Benny would have to be beheaded, and Dean crushed us all over his heartache from the mere idea.  If the guilt was bad before, I'm sure it's really haunting him here, especially when Benny refused to come back with Sam.  

It was all worth it though, and Dean would do it again in a heartbeat.  His relieved hug when Sam came back from Purgatory told the entire story.  He would do anything, absolutely anything for his little brother.  

winchesterhugdean
Pac-Man Fever

This is Dean at his overprotective finest, and he really grows in this one.  He's not just protective of his brother, but his "sister" as well.  That's what Charlie has become, the little sister they never wanted, and she's earned the protection of an overprotective big bro.  Dean is even calling the Men of Letters bunker home now, and the idea of Dean finally having a home makes me grin from ear to ear.  

This episode has a very strong theme of family, but this time, it stretches into that whole "Family don't end with blood" territory that Sam and Dean are all too familiar with.   Sam is not good.  The second trial really hit him hard, and he's wobbly.  His firearm skills suck, and even Dean noticed the rather disturbing case of bed head.  He practically orders Sam to stay on the sidelines and get better, but Sam won't hear it.  This of course drives Dean nuts, especially when he and Charlie go out on a case only to find Sam working it from the other side.  

Charlie needs saving, and Dean doesn't even hesitate to put himself into harm's way, taking the African dream root to get to her.  He's already discovered Charlie's secret, her mother is in a coma, and Charlie has been secretly visiting her all these years and sending fake donations for her care.  One reason Dean connects so well with Charlie is he understands her on an emotional level.  He can relate, he too lost his mother at a young age.  He understands the pain and the inability to let go.  He helps her get through all that, and it ends up saving them both.  It's not unlike the time he got through to Bobby in "Dream A Little Dream of Me."  As I've said before, he knows how to get through to people he cares about.  

Of course, when it comes to letting go of Sam, not gonna happen.  After all, Sam was the patient that Dean imagined he had to save in the video game.  I love when Charlie asks him, "What about you, you're gonna let it go?"  Dean has the right answer.  "Never."  But in a way, he does.  After Charlie leaves, Sam is all apologetic, waiting for Dean to go off on him but Dean surprises Sam (and all of us) by just simply pulling Sam in for a hug.  Despite his worry, he's going to trust Sam and together they'll go find Kevin.  It's a big leap of faith for Dean.  He's trusting Sam, but he's keeping him close too.  It's something they have to do together, and only together.  

hug2dean

The thing I loved the most about this episode was how much it showed Dean's maturity.  He really has grown from the earlier seasons and his wisdom with both Charlie and Sam really accented the years worth of growth we've seen him go through.  He's becoming a truly respected patriarch, and one everyone would be lost without.  

The Great Escapist

The brotherly goodness in this one still tickles me to this day!  Sam has easily taken a turn for the worst.  He's feverish now, not eating, and emotionally he's starting to fray.  Actually, he's just plain erratic.  Of course that's the fever talking, but that doesn't make it any less revealing.  Dean's role is more important than ever.  He not only has to take on the role of being physically strong one, but the emotional center as well. 

Since we're on the subject of fever, score one for Dean and his fast ice bath skills!  How did he manage to draw an ice bath and pull in such a large man into a claw foot tub so quickly?  Well done!  It made a difference, because Sam was just one degree in his fever from death.  Plus, we got a wet Sam scene and Dean there with a towel.  Ah, the simple pleasures.  

Dean actually got to see a side of Sam he's never seen before.  A side he probably never imagined was there.  The vulnerable child that somehow knew even at a very early age that he wasn't clean and pure.  Dean never saw Sam that way or even imagined Sam that way.  At that age it was all about protecting and taking care of Sam, keeping the truth away from him so he could life a normal life.  Even as adults, when Sam's abilities started to manifest and Dean found out the truth of the demon blood, he continued to protect and watch out for him, because he knew none of this was Sam's fault.  He even says that to Sam in this episode when Sam brings it up.  But still, coming to the realization that Sam always knew he wasn't right, that had to break Dean's heart.  I'm sure he wants to believe the trials are purifying Sam, but you have to wonder by his silence how much he thought that was the fever talking.  They've been burned before, and that is some pretty wishful thinking.  Still, I think he came out hopeful for Sammy.  

deansurprisedbysam

It's Dean that ultimately though saves Kevin by appealing to Metatron.  He takes Metatron's warning to heart, what's coming is going to be brutal.  He's not wrong.  

Clip Show

Sam is worn down, and Dean's big job right now is keeping things together.  He tries to nurse Sam back to health, but more importantly he's there to make sure Sam doesn't lose his focus.  That's a little hard since they're nursing Castiel back to health too, and Dean's not exactly impressed with Castiel.  His anger toward Castiel is understandable, but it's obvious he still cares otherwise Cas wouldn't be there at all.  He's not showing any support though.  

When Crowley though delivers the big blow and kills Sarah, while Sam and Dean helplessly are unable to find the hex bag, that crushes what little bit of spirit Sam has left.  Dean is the one that must keep the mission going.  "We'll figure this out. We will. Man, we'll get it done. We'll kick it in the ass like we always do.  Are you with me?"  That's the all important lead in to the third trial.  

Sacrifice

It's the final showdown, and Dean isn't backing down now.  They do come up with that plan, even if Sam's not exactly thrilled.  Dean is classic badass with Crowley in the Singer Salvage yard, exchanging punches with Crowley, and refusing to show any sign of weakness.  Crowley's ass is theirs, for he's the third trial.  Right on!  That scene felt so good.  

deancaryard2freckles

Sam is clearly troubled about taking confession, so Dean offers his advice.  Start with Ruby.  Then he starts listing all the other sins Sam has done over the last few years, and now he's hitting that sore spot again.  Sure he's a little playful and joking, thinking he's not doing any harm and Sam just takes it, but this is hardly the first time Dean has brought this sort of thing up.  It still stings with him, and he really doesn't know how much such backhanded comments are sticking with Sam, and not in a good way.  

Castiel shows up and Dean has to decide, who needs his help more?  He refuses to leave Sam.  "Now, if anybody needs a chaperone while doing the heavy lifting, it's Sam."   Of course Sam is behind him the whole time listening to this, so Dean has to prove he trusts Sam by going with Castiel.  Good thing he does, because Cas is really in a mess.  

Dean takes some time to talk with Castiel in the bar as they're waiting for the cupid.  He's aware if the plan succeeds that means Castiel will be locked in Heaven forever, and will likely be killed by the other angels for his past misdeeds.  It's his chance to make peace with the angel, and give him his blessing for his sacrifice.  This is Dean letting things go, and I admire the gesture he makes here on behalf of his angel friend.  He's trusting Castiel to make his own decision and choose his own fate. 

Dean does force Castiel to let to Naomi speak though, because he believes she's not totally untrustworthy.  Her information is enough to send Dean into a panic.  As soon as Dean finds out the truth, that completing the trials will mean Sam will die, he begs Castiel to take him to Sam right away.  He doesn't need to take anytime to think through this one, Sam will not be the sacrifice as God intended.  

Sam by this time is so weary, so broken and raw he can barely function.  Dean has to talk Sam down from the ledge, and he's hanging off it pretty steep.  Sam wants to finish it, or other innocents will die.  Dean has another idea, take everything they've learned from the Men of Letters and use it to turn the tide.  "But I can't do it without you."  Sam doesn't believe that.  This is where all those hurtful words, those years of backhanded comments to Sam come back to haunt Dean.  Sam hasn't been ignoring all that.  He's been holding it in, letting himself feel inadequate and a constant disappointment.  In this twist of fate, it almost gets his brother killed.    

Dean has to prove that Sam has always and always will be his greatest priority.  He reminds Sam he killed Benny to save him, and he's willing to let the demons walk.  "Don't you dare think that there is anything, past or present, that I would put in front of you! It has never been like that, ever! I need you to see that. I'm begging you."  Dean tells Sam it's simple, let it go.  Let go of all those years of pain, of the quest for revenge against the beings that ruined their lives, its not more important than each other.  This is very reminiscent of "Devil's Trap."  All those years later, it still holds true.  Family is most important.  It's all sealed appropriately (given the last few episodes) with a healing hug.  He just doesn't hug Sam.  He is there to hold up a weary and exhausted Sam, who practically collaspes in his arms.  

HUGDEANSAMWIDE
Just perfect. 

So season eight ends with a new, more mature, and more trusting Dean Winchester.  Considering how many issues this guy has had with trust, this is a big breakthrough for our hero.  He's found his purpose again and no matter where that purpose goes, his priorities are still in line.  Sam comes first.  It's the Dean that we remember from past seasons, with a new found sensibility thrown in just to show us how far he's come.  Considering the past two seasons, this is a major triumph for his character.  Now what is he going to do about this angel problem?  Something tells me he's going to be very busy next season. 

Coming up next, my deeper look at season eight Sam Winchester. 



Comments  

Prix68
# Prix68 2013-06-17 07:51
Thank you for this lovely article. Well done.
E
# E 2013-06-17 08:20
Great article. Dean surely has come a long way this season and it was nice to see it unfold episode by episode like that.

Totally agree with you on Man's Best Friend though, lalalala... I don't hear anything...lala lala
love2boys unlogged
# love2boys unlogged 2013-06-17 09:28
I loved this article/review and the analysis of my darlin' Dean. I can't wait to read about my sweetheart Sam. (note attempt at alliteration)

I am flinching away from the comments though - Sam's turn IS coming up!

The great thing about both brothers during all of the seasons is that they each had really bad moments and really good moments. Character hills and valleys. I like that.

I am repeatedly re-watching S8, and am still processing. For me, there is still a big disconnect between the first half of the season and the second half. These WFB articles are helping.

Keep up the good work! I really don't want to live holding grudges against my favorite brothers, writers and crew. They have been the only stability in my life for 8 years.

So really, please, keep these articles coming! See you soon, Sam! :D
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-06-18 23:53
Quote:
Sam's turn IS coming up!
We never worry about this :lol: .This site has a good balance
cleverlylemon
# cleverlylemon 2013-06-17 12:24
Oh I loved this! Those screen shots made me melt and I can't be happier about where Season 8 left Dean. What a great recap, Alice.

I can't wait to see Sam's Deeper Look :)
Amy
# Amy 2013-06-17 12:37
After reading the comments under part 1 I'm not surprised about this sites reputation. Dean really is slated and blamed for everything while Sam gets off extremely lightly for his transgressions, in part because Dean gets a good chunk of the blame for Sam's actions to.

Dean's dragged over the coals more for sending that stupid text than Sam was for not looking for Dean when he disappeared. I don't count the two in the same ball park.

I don't recognize the show some of the fans on here are watching or this really horrible Dean character people are describing who is so mean to his saintly brother.
Thisoldbag
# Thisoldbag 2013-06-17 13:12
Lovely article Alice! Dean had quite a bit of growth this season which was great to see. I can't wait for the relationship between our boys to continue to mature in the next season(s)!
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-06-17 13:56
That was lovely Alice. You are, even though Sam has your heart, able to recognize the good man that I have always seen in Dean. Despite all his faults and mistakes (contrary to recent comments, that say he is shown as perfect, while Sam is vilified), this is a man who loves his brother dearly! Always has, always will. He has made great strides in maturity and hopefully 'Sacrifice' will bring in a new era of trust and understanding between the brothers. There are always going to be bumps in the road, they are so different it is inevitable.

I really needed to see some positive feedback about Dean right about now. To see such kind words about Dean is touching. Thank you.
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2013-06-17 14:03
Thanks Alice for putting all those beautiful screenshots of Dean hugging his little brother. Makes me melt everytime. I finished rewatching season 8, but after reading this, I'm going back for more! ;-) It was such a good season. Sure there were some duds *cough* the dog one *cough*, but as a whole, I loved it and I'm hopeful for the Winchester future.
judyann
# judyann 2013-06-17 20:19
Alice, Thanks for the review. I, too, believe that both Dean and Sam has show much maturity than in the past. Hopefully they will continoue to grow in the coming season.
Trucklady
# Trucklady 2013-06-17 21:52
Wonderful article Alice. I have been rewatching Season 8 as of yesterday so it was great timing to get to read your take on this season. I've always been a Dean girl not to slight Sam in any way shape or form because his part this season has just blown me away. I've always recognized his great acting ability but it has just never really shown through (even though I knew it was there) until this season. They both have grown so much and it shows in every scene they are in now. I'm a happy fan and always have been, just even more now. Thanks again Alice for a great write up. :lol:
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-06-18 07:19
Nice review, Alice. Had read a lot of complaints about Dean's role, particularly in the latter half of S8. I think your use of the term patriarch is perfect; the glue that held everything together
Alice
# Alice 2013-06-19 11:14
Thanks! You know, I get that many fans find that role of the glue that held everything together for Dean boring, or "been there done that" but I think he needed to get back to this spot after he was so dispassionate (and drunk) in seasons six and seven. There's always hope he can go on from here and take his role as a leader farther. At least that's my hope. The potential is there, but I am curious to see where the writers go with it.
Ginger
# Ginger 2013-06-18 08:58
Nice article that searched out the positive of S8 Dean and what I think was probably Carver's intent. However, I find that throughout both Part 1 and Part 2, you describe what I think the writer's view of Dean is -- a one-dimensional caregiver. I found S8 quite abysmal, despite a few brilliant scenes here and there. I can't even rewatch any of the episodes this year. I'm hoping S9 is something better.
Alice
# Alice 2013-06-19 11:18
Thanks Ginger! I don't know, I don't think he was one dimensional. I saw some real layers and maturity in episodes like "Pac-Man Fever." I do agree, some episodes squandered the opportunity to build up his character, but those were episodes written by bad writers that honestly haven't done either character much justice. There were too many like that for my liking, but the other good ones in my mind almost made up for those.

I do like that you're giving season nine a shot. We should be finding out soon some information about the first few episodes.
Ali
# Ali 2013-07-05 10:10
Hi Ginger, I thought that S8 was a complete mess. I started it loving Dean and liking Sam. I ended it disliking Sam and not being that keen on Dean either. I'll give the first couple of episodes of S9 a go but will stop watching if it's as badly written as S8.
Sasha
# Sasha 2013-06-18 12:42
I think they did the worst thing you can do with a character in a story in Season 8, the second half at least: make them boring.

We had years of caretaker-Dean so that is already flat and overdone by now but to literally put him in the kitchen and have him serve Sam food? Beg Sam to be allowed to take his temperature?

Even on Desperate Housewives, I wouldn`t have expected a main character to be saddled with such uninspired lameness, in a genre action show like this it really drew to attention that Dean has become superflouus to the plot if they have to pad his screentime with that.

It pains me to say it but other than short filler scenes here and there that had nothing to do with the overarching story, Dean in the second half of Season 2 was the supernova of being boring. And seldom have I seen a character devolve so much. He came out of Purgatory a warrior, albeit with issues but ended the Season as not only more codependent than when the show began but as close to a 50s housewife as I have seen outside decades-old sitcoms.

I for one hope to see an actual character with a plot in Season 9.
Ali
# Ali 2013-07-05 10:14
Quote:
I think they did the worst thing you can do with a character in a story in Season 8, the second half at least: make them boring.

We had years of caretaker-Dean so that is already flat and overdone by now but to literally put him in the kitchen and have him serve Sam food? Beg Sam to be allowed to take his temperature?

Even on Desperate Housewives, I wouldn`t have expected a main character to be saddled with such uninspired lameness, in a genre action show like this it really drew to attention that Dean has become superflouus to the plot if they have to pad his screentime with that.

It pains me to say it but other than short filler scenes here and there that had nothing to do with the overarching story, Dean in the second half of Season 2 was the supernova of being boring. And seldom have I seen a character devolve so much. He came out of Purgatory a warrior, albeit with issues but ended the Season as not only more codependent than when the show began but as close to a 50s housewife as I have seen outside decades-old sitcoms.

I for one hope to see an actual character with a plot in Season 9.
To me, it was a repeat of S5 only far far worse. Dean wanting to sacrifice himself and Sam stopping him, Dean supporting Sam's decision and looking out for him; even being there to add moral support at the end. The only difference being that there was no sacrifce at the end.
Grace232
# Grace232 2013-06-18 14:59
Thanks for this great article. I loved Dean in these episodes. He was the leader, the one everyone turned to, he was badass Dean, but with a maturity and understanding, who still has his values from season 1 - family comes first. Remember him begging Sam not to kill their father in order to kill Azazel in Devil's Trap?

The second half of season 8 was so great. After reading the comments from the first half of season 1 article, though, I confess I have decided to read the articles on this site but not the comments - at least for a while. I do not understand how people turn a discussion and appreciation of this wonderful show into a competition of the 2 leads or an opportunity to bash the characters. I guess that works for them, but it just gives me a stomachache. So, while I know I am going to miss some wonderful comments, I am going to protect myself and ensure I can continue to enjoy the wonderful articles here by doing this. Thanks again for this wonderful site that continues to add to my appreciation of this show, it's writers and actors.
eilf
# eilf 2013-06-18 23:48
Hi Alice wanted to give my take on the second half of the season. I agree with you for the most part and it is interesting to see the salient parts of each episode being taken and discussed like this (this got way too long so I have trimmed what I had to say about some of the episodes)
As time goes by: yes I agree Dean was all over the shop in this episode. He didn’t seem to know what he wanted, the fundamental issue he had – that Henry had left John when John was a child – was explained as soon as Henry fell out of the closet!
Everyone Hates Hitler – I love this episode, it is brilliant, and the scene in the bar is funny (and clever on Aaron’s part). Jensen gets to stretch his comedic abilities several times during the episode which is always fun and It is the first time in the season we really get the idea that Dean and Sam are working together (Sam being trailed and asking for help in code). Love it!
Trial and Error – Dean’s bedroom is adorable and touching (he has his own room!) – though personally I would not have a freestanding axe just over my head, but you know, at least it’s within reach … in case …. um … Sam starts a a pillow fight?, yeah, that. The changeover in the brothers’ attitudes from supersoldier+ne sting/uninteres ted to kamikaze/determ ined induced a small amount of whiplash but it was nice to see old bonds surface regardless.
Man’s best friends with benefits – Ok I agree with you about most of the Dean canon in this episode. However I there is a scene that is so awkwardly shoe-horned into this episode that it looks like it was added for continuity. That is the idea that Dean can only trust himself and no one else. The only purpose I can see with this is to foreshadow the final scene of Sacrifice where the concept of trust comes up again.
Remember the Titans - Dean’s face during the trashtalking! That man has amazing expressions!
Goodbye Stranger – bit torn on this. Jensen (and Misha) do an amazing job with the scene in the crypt and they have said they had a hard time with it, it is a pity it is SO like Swan Song though.
Freaks and Geeks – This was a perfectly average Dean-and-guest- star-of-the-wee k episode. ‘I’m really not that old!’ (I hear ya Dean!)
Taxi Driver – Poor Dean, poor Benny, what a thing to have to do! Fantastic acting on both parts. There is a part of this episode that foreshadows Sacrifice as well but it applies more to Sam than Dean but for a guy who ‘understands that kid better than anyone’ I think he missed the signs of someone who is afraid of how he might react to them letting him down. Dean was in a really difficult situation and made a tough decision – but everyone SHOULD have survived, it could be considered cold but it was practical and it would have worked.
Pacman Fever – interesting idea and it was nice to see Charlie becoming more human and less of a mary-sue. Charlie in small doses, please? Thank you. The reality of the brothers becoming closer again was nice and the unexpected hug at the end was unexpected! Go hugs.
The Great Escapist – Dean does stuff … wet Sam / high temperature Sam/ funny Sam … sorry we were talking about Dean. Dean does stuff, it was cool! (I guess I need to go back watch this again *sigh*)
Clip Show – This whole episode was heartbreaking but it was so hard for Dean that the act of listening to everything that Crowley had to say was the thing that ensured Sarah would die. That sounds like dealing with Crowley all over.
Sacrifice – Dean’s dealings with Crowley are so fun. Him reading the contract while getting closer, and closer and closer to Crowley is very funny – plus it allows him to capture him. Very clever. I like! And also that they learned their lesson the hard way with Abbadon – Crowley is going nowhere.
Now for the bad bit. I know it is necessary for the plot and I know it eventually gets the central issues of the season out in the open and I know it leads to gorgeous angsty should-be-emmy- winning (but won’t be) performances and stuff …. But honestly, for me, (and this is going to get me in trouble for Dean bashing I suppose) but I am astonished that a leader going into battle would manage, in the space of 3 conversations over 5 minutes, to make the person who needed strength and encouragement to succeed realize the futility of his existence for once and all! And the thing is it seems pretty clear that he didn’t mean any of it to be taken the way it was. The final scene where he realises there is an issue is wonderful and heartbreaking and intensely well acted by JA. I believe Dean, I hope the writers follow through.
Overall I see that Dean has become the big brother to end all big brothers with both the positives and negatives that entails. I don’t see the patriarch bit yet. I have never doubted the strength of the love between these two brothers but it was great to see it so firmly reestablished!
leah unlogged
# leah unlogged 2013-06-19 00:13
Eilf, that is an impressive and well thought out post!!. Umm that is the trimmed version?? :lol: I see absolutely nothing that could be construed as bashing.
leah unlogged
# leah unlogged 2013-06-19 00:20
Adding how much I laughed at the In-depth analysis of The Great Escapist. "Dean does stuff"!
eilf
# eilf 2013-06-19 00:25
the comment sort of got away from me, yeah (to paraphrase The Doctor).Thank you (and I am relieved to hear you say that)
leah unlogged
# leah unlogged 2013-06-19 08:37
Just a thought or two on "bashing". I have rarely seen what I consider to be true bashing on this site in the years I have been visiting. This is a very fair and balanced site. People butt heads, people have issues with and even dislike characters. That is completely within their rights. I have heard of people being afraid of being "jumped" on for expressing themselves. I have no problem with people who disagree with me. As long as my opinion is not demeaned. It is often the manner in the way people disagree that stings. It is a fact of life that people will defend their favorite character(s), that is to be expected. The people here who run, monitor and write such wonderful articles should be commended for their efforts. Anyone who says this site is slanted is just wrong. There is a place for us all here.

Sorry for veering off-topic. Please feel free to relocate if needed.
Shelby
# Shelby 2013-06-19 09:31
IMO, the reason that many Deanfans don't read or visit this site and consider it more of a Sam site is because of the indifference/in attention(by even the authors of articles here) to the show's poor writing for Jensen Ackles/Dean in that the show's writers have never truly allowed the actor to show ALL that he can do by allowing him to spread his acting wings by gifting him with a solely central and season-long myth-arc role that had the kind of resolution that they've gifted Jared Padalecki/Sam(a nd even, in truth, Misha Collins also) with time and time again; and they have also, in the opinion of many, many Deanfans(from what I've read of the boards), never truly allowed the Dean character to grow out from under being predominantly just and only an extension of Sam, and what he can be and do for Sam. The fact that the author of these two Dean articles seems to have interpreted S8 Dean as having shown great "growth" cuts right to the heart of that disagreement because so many Deanfans that I know have actually opted to drop this show because of what they(and I) saw as a horrendous and unprecedented regression/stag nation of the Dean character in the second half of S8-and this after there was so much hope that Carver would see Dean as more of a character unto himself than either Kripke or Gamble ever did. Dean doesn't have to become less loving of his brother to also become a character unto himself. Maybe they will give that to the Dean fandom in S9, but too many have grown too tired of waiting for something that even this showrunner shows no signs of wanting to happen-especial ly now and after that last brother scene in Sacrifice.
And it's fine that the predominant opinion here is that that's fine and hunky-dory and okay and alright-but Alice asked in the previous article's comments why many Deanfans avoid this site like the plague and label it a "Sam site"-well, IMO, that is pretty much the main reason-a basic difference of opinion as to how well the writers are servicing and validating one of their LEAD actors and characters on this show through their writing and storytelling. You here are fine with it, for the most part. I(and many others) despise it, for the most part. You saw growth in Dean this season. I saw some in the first half, but then it was all suddenly stripped away leaving him worse off than he's ever been, in the second half. If the writing and storytelling on this show was even halfway decent, the gulf between what you perceived and what I perceived would not be that great-unless you got everything you wanted and hoped for and I got none of what I had wanted and hoped for-which is what happened in the second half of S8 for many in the Dean fandom, IMO.
And this likely explains why you still have some traffic here, while the Dean boards are deader than a doornail right now. This site is only bi-bro for those bi-bros who are fine/okay with Dean being kept predominantly and strictly in the caretaker role-this also being a characteristic of many extreme Sam fans who feel threatened by the thought of Dean(and Jensen) being allowed more than that from the writers. I DO hope that Carver plans on going as in-depth with the Dean character, and that he plans on putting as much thought into a season-long story arc for Dean in S9, as he did for Sam in S8, I'll keep my ear to the ground for that, but he lost me as a live viewer with the complete 180 he took regarding Dean as a character unto himself in the second half of S8-not to mention the mess that he made of so much of the SERIES-LONG canon with Taxi Driver and the need for brain bleach after Man's Best Friend with Benefits-which was likely the worst hour of television that I think I've ever had the misfortune to have sat through.
Alice
# Alice 2013-06-19 11:09
Thank you Shelby! You know, this is honestly what I was looking for. I need (and perhaps others as well) to know what is truly upsetting some fans now about Dean's character. Honestly, I was so damn frustrated with his character in seasons six and seven, I just found season eight to be refreshing. I saw him get his passion for hunting back. I do accept that some fans want to see Dean be more than Sam's caretaker, but honestly, these articles are more meant to show the progression the writers took, not my personal wish list. I'm sorry I liked what I saw, but expectations are much lower for me after season seven.

What I was planning on doing was posting a Let's Discuss on Season 8 Dean Winchester. What are the hopes for his character in season nine sort of thing, and compare it with wish lists for season 8. I wasn't going to post that until I did my Deeper Look at Sam Winchester (there would be one for Sam too) but perhaps I post that sooner? Is this a free form discussion that Dean fans would be willing to sound off on? We don't moderate the Let's Discuss threads, and except we ask that fans respect one another.

Oh, and I'm totally with you on Taxi Driver and Man's Best Friend.

Thanks again for showing this perspective.
love2boys unlogged
# love2boys unlogged 2013-06-21 16:17
Hi Alice,
Re Taxi Driver? I think it is easier to get in and out of Purgatory now, since the Leviathons have already been let loose on earth and have been disorganized. Not as great a need for security. So the holes and portals are apparent - whereas before, we needed the blood spell to make it so difficult for the Levi's to get out. Make any sense? Well, it was the first thing that came into my head when I was watching the episode.

And I would like to see your Deeper Look at Sam Winchester before the Let's Discuss Dean. Just sayin'.

Thanks. l2b
Ali
# Ali 2013-07-05 10:30
Quote:
Thank you Shelby! You know, this is honestly what I was looking for. I need (and perhaps others as well) to know what is truly upsetting some fans now about Dean's character. Honestly, I was so damn frustrated with his character in seasons six and seven, I just found season eight to be refreshing. I saw him get his passion for hunting back. I do accept that some fans want to see Dean be more than Sam's caretaker, but honestly, these articles are more meant to show the progression the writers took, not my personal wish list. I'm sorry I liked what I saw, but expectations are much lower for me after season seven.
The problem for me Alice is that the writers aren't giving Dean much character growth. During 'Trial and Error' I really thought that they were giving Dean the 'trials' storyline, as they'd given Sam the 'letters' storyline and that the two brothers would work as equals to save the world. I was so angry/upset/fru strated that the episode ended with Sam having both storylines.

It was the same in S5, Dean was going to be Michael's vessel and Sam was going to be Lucifer's. The writers ended up following through with the Sam part of the storyline and abandoning the Dean part. I assume that was because the show got renewed and they had to change things.

I actually think they did a good job with S5 but the last thing I wanted to see was it being repeated, very badly, in S8.

It seems to me that the writers see Sam as the main character, the one who gets most of the big storylines and they see Dean as the supporting character. That's not how I see them; I see them as being equal main characters. I want to see both of them written as such. I want them to give Jensen things to do which will show just what a good actor hie is. To be honest, I'd like to see the actors' names alternate as first in the opening credits but I know that will never happen.

I also want to like Sam again. I don't right now.
Tillypuitan
# Tillypuitan 2013-06-21 02:47
Shelby, I think you speak for a lot of Dean fans in your comment. I found season 8 to be demoralizing as a Dean fan. I am curious to read about season 9, but if Dean's story is nothing more than holding everyone's else's hands again, I won't be able to watch the show anymore.
IMO, Dean was so regressed and deconstructed in the last half of Season 8 that he disappeared. On one hand, I do think that he was the glue that held everything together, but remember, glue becomes invisible once it has stabilized the broken bits and so did Dean. There is no excuse why the writers can't give him a season long, important storyline, and still have him love his brother. Makes no sense. Were it not for the truly wonderful acting by JA all season long, giving Dean Winchester such a presence even though he had no story, the show would have lost me in Feburary.
Shelby
# Shelby 2013-06-22 10:43
Every time there is hope for a meatier storyline for him they quash it by regressing his character back to the same old, same old-and which happens to be, in truth, just a supporting-role . I mean, you can't describe Dean's role in the second half of this season W/O using that word while every other character had something more. And just because Jensen Ackles the actor is capable of and known for elevating his material like no other, should not mean that he should be denied actual lead role writing just because he might shine TOO bright for this show-which is what it feels like is happening in the writers' room, at this point-at least to me.
We'll see how much they talk about Dean at Comic Con. They have no clear cut set-up for him in S9, as they DO have for pretty much every other character, so that's not a good thing; but the worst is how since S5 the showrunner and producers have been loathe to seem to even want to talk about Dean or Jensen's role, specifically. They'll talk about everyone else's, but not his-and it's become clear to me since that season, that when they say nothing about Dean, you can be pretty sure it's because he's getting strictly and only the support of other characters' role yet again and some more.
It's becoming frustrating for many(including many bi-bros I know) to only be able to IMAGINE what Jensen Ackles could do with some genuine lead actor writing, After S8, if they don't do this, then IMO, it could pretty much be assumed with some measure of surety that something hinky is going on behind the scenes-because you don't waste an actor of such talent, ability, and popularity in the utterly and singularly redundant role that they've invariably relegated/regre ssed Dean back to in every season since S5, for no reason. They need to give the character AND the actor his own sl in S9 if they want many of us to believe that they do indeed still value and respect Dean, as a character unto himself, AND the actor who has performed nothing less than miracle in trying to keep and portray Dean as a character unto himself amidst all the disrespect-whet her it's been intentional or not. I think that Samwise reference did it for many. If Dean is a reflection of anyone in that story, he's just as much Aragorn, as he is Samwise(MORE Aragorn, IMO)-and to deny that aspect of the character is to completely deny the artistic contribution that Jensen has made to his character, IMO. Television writing is not literature. The author has to take into account others' artistic contributions if the finished product is to be the best that it can be. I don't think the writers of Supernatural have been doing this since the great Kim Manners died. And what a shame that is. More and more it's seeming to me as if the true quality, class, and style of this show has too sadly died right along with that awesomely talented producer/direct or/artist. :-(
leah unlogged
# leah unlogged 2013-06-22 12:39
Hi Shelby, I am very much a Dean fan. I probably fall into the bi category as I also am a huge Sam fan. I have a strong lean towards Dean. I understand him, not a perfect character by any means, but maybe my favorite of all time.

I just can't muster up the anger and frustration that some of the "Dean" and "Sam" fans have. The arguments you have presented have been used by both sides for as long as I have been reading comments. I am not saying that some of them are not valid or that you have no right saying them, just that I don't see it the same way. For whatever reason I see them as a unit. After an episode ends if Sam and Dean are in it I am happy. Not to say I have enjoyed every episode or storyline. To the contrary. But I never break it down to who had the myth arc or who had the best storyline, or what is going on behind the scenes to tarnish my favorite character. I don't think the cast or crew does either. They seem to have a common goal of making the best show possible and whether we agree or not shouldn't matter in the least.

You have a right to feel however you want but there are those of us that don't necessarily agree. I love this site and it does have it's fair share of Sam and Sam leaning fans, but I find the people here very fair and reasonable. We don't always agree with each but I would rather be on this site than any other I have visited.

I couldn't disagree more with the idea that the quality, class, and style has disappeared from this show. This is not a perfect show. No show is. Even in it's rocky moments it is still one of the best series that has ever been on tv IMO. And I go waaaay back.

I am sorry you are so unhappy, it must be hard to keep watching a show that you feel that way about. I personally wouldn't do it.

I hope you don't feel this is an example of this site being unfriendly, this is what we do- express our views. Many times people disagree. That is also what we do.

I loved the second half of the season. Dean as caretaker is part of who he his. After the last couple of seasons and the early S8, it was wonderful to see Dean be so caring and concerned about Sam. He didn't make snarky comments comments about it he just went into " taking care of Sam" mode and I loved it as well as his new-found (hopefully) maturity. These guys have both had moments of one taking the lead while the other gives support. The fans are never in agreement as to which character is given the most love by the writers and TPTB. The nature of the beast.
Shelby
# Shelby 2013-06-23 10:19
"I am sorry you are so unhappy, it must be hard to keep watching a show that you feel that way about. I personally wouldn't do it."

It is. And that's why I'm giving it up as a live viewer. And I'll just add to this, that I disagree with too much in your post-and especially with the part about the fairness and the reasonable aspect here-at least as regards the characters and the actors. You find that here. I don't-nor do many of the Deanfans that I know. And I find it interesting that one of the responses to my comment stating that this IS indeed a more Sam/JP-biased site was met with the statement that the same could be said of some other sites out there-only in the reverse-which kind of only proved my point.

All the fansites CLAIM to be bi-bro, but it's the predominance of posters at a site that make it Sam-leaning or Dean-leaning, IMO-and posters tend to flock to the places where they find more like-minded individuals. Alice said it herself, she can't help who posts here. The only thing she can do is to try and make the articles as balanced as they should be if she wants to keep claiming that this is a bi-bro site, that's not overly Sam-leaning, which even by the comments here, most admit that it IS indeed, Sam-leaning.
I'd like to see Dean's POV on the trust issues between the brothers better represented on the show next season. I'd like to actually see and hear more about Dean feelings on Sam not even attempting to look for him or find him while he was in Purgatory. This was woefully explained and explored through dialogue between the brothers in S8, IMO. The same thing happened in S5 in Fallen Idols. Dean's thoughts/view of the brothers' issues was left unexplored in their dialogues. Sam keeps doing things that erode the trust, too-but that fact is rarely acknowledged or recognized in a humble and/or contrite way by Sam when the issue IS addressed. There is always the codicil attached that Dean himself is partly to blame(according to Sam) for the things that Sam has done wrong within the relationship-wh ile Dean is afforded no such codicils when the dialogues address what Dean has done wrong. So basically, and from my perspective-and I can only guess that this must be the writers' message and intent since they've done it twice now-what Dean does wrong within the brothers' relationship is all on him and no one else, but what Sam does wrong(the Benny fiasco, for example) is always going to be at least partly Dean's fault for pushing Sam to do these things.
Nevermind, Sam not even trying to find/locate Dean while Dean was in Purgatory. At this point, that is obviously an issue of disagreement between some in the fandom and the writers(Carver, specifically, I guess). But the mess with Benny AND Martin? How could they not even explore Sam's part and culpability in that?! Instead, after the hiatus, we got all the writing emphasis and focus on how bad and shameful Dean's text was! That was pathetically unbalanced writing to me and the worst part is that I don't believe that this present set of writers is even aware of how pathetically unbalanced it was.
In the first four seasons, I think there was more effort put into balancing the writing for the two main characters in all areas of the show-the emotional aspect and the myth-arc-but since S5, that doesn't seem to be as much of a priority anymore. As I said, S9 will be very telling in that, IMO. Unfortunately, my hopes have been dashed too many times in the last three and a half seasons for me to hang in there any longer, hoping to get the "magic" back, because after the second half of this season, and the producer comments I've seen and read, it now just feels as if it's gone for good for me, that's all-and yes that IS sad, considering how much I used to love this show.
So I'm bowing out now, with pretty much an agree to disagree with most of your post, and the thought that if after 8 seasons the arguments/disag reements are still the same and just the "nature of the beast"-well, IMO, there should at least be honesty as to the differences in the fansites out there that in all ways make up the nature of this particular beast.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-06-23 11:14
Quote:
Nevermind, Sam not even trying to find/locate Dean while Dean was in Purgatory.
He thought Dean was dead.I would have liked more insight on what really happened in that missing time before he met Amelia but alas that did not happen this season.I did not understand what was the purpose of this season other than angels falling.I found it worser than s6 and 7.
Sam was blamed for leaving to go to college..that was unfair ..but again when we see Dean's reasons for resenting Sam it is not really about fair or unfair..It was just Dean's need for their family to be together...ther e are many times either Sam's or Dean's characters have not got the focus which was necessary at that moment.My only hope is they don't continue the trend.
As far as fallen idols go till Sam called out Dean on his part Dean was reminding me every time how wrong Sam was..That was a moment when Sam put his foot down and told it was not going to work as it had not worked earlier on.
As far as this site goes the site has equal focus article wise..no one can control who comes to the site or not.
I hope your concerns are addressed next season.
Shelby
# Shelby 2013-06-23 12:30
"As far as this site goes the site has equal focus article wise."
Not in portraying an equally sympathetic view of both brothers thoughts and actions. Not IMO. The consensus here seems to me to be perfectly in line with that of the writers since S5, IMO-Dean is only necessary as a character on the present incarnation of this show to show us and back up and prop the idea that Sam's thoughts and actions were not as "bad" as they seemed to be; or as Dean might have thought they were. It's basically whitewashing and it gets ever so old when repeated over and over again-as it's been since S5, again IMO.
I think that couching words in civility does not always and necessarily equate to fair and reasonable discussions. Sometimes it just means that someone knows how to turn a phrase. Fair and reasonable discussion requires open-mindedness , first and foremost, IMO.
I've never been a huge fan of Sam's, but before S5, I always thought that there was hope for growth for him within the brothers' relationship and that he might some day see Dean as an individual unto himself; with thoughts and feelings of his own that were not necessarily always going to jive with Sam's, just because Sam says that they must or Sam will leave. But we never got that. Instead, it almost seems as if we are getting more of SAM taking on the John role within the relationship in the way that will never allow Sam to see Dean as an indvidual unto himself whose thoughtes and views and actions are no more "wrong" or "bad" than Sam's ever were or are-or as someone who is very open-minded and more than capable of changing his thought patterns and process when he is presented with evidence that merits and warrants that kind of a change.
Sadly, I'm not a fan of Sam's at all right now, but I think that the writers expect to me be that-in spades-and this only because TotallyMessedUp Dean is his biggest fan-which isn't working for me anymore.
Most here want the conflicts to just stop and end. Most of the Deanfans(and yes, bi-bros, too) that *I* know, want the present and future conflicts between the brothers to be resolved in a more balanced fashion that grants "sympathy" to BOTH through the DIALOGUES that they share in.
And speaking of dialogues, it sure would also be nice if the writers in S9, would allow Samm in his conversations with others characters, to talk about Dean and his concern for something going on with Dean; and/or to talk up DEAN'S strength to endure and how much Dean matters to Sam in Sam's life, as they had Dean do in almost every episode in the second half of S8.
They fell down on the job, big-time, if they were going for that in any real way this season, IMO. I want to like Sam, but the writers won't allow me to even while they continue to try and tell me that i should and if I don't or can't there's just something "wrong" with the way I'm viewing the show-again, pretty much the vibe I get from this site-both through the articles I've read here and through the comments posted here. Going back to the Lurkdom now, which is usually where I reside-even though, yes, I AM more comfortable lurking at the more Dean-leaning sites(and yes, likely because I AM a proud Deangirl through and through and not ashamed to admit that). They don't make me as angry as I get when I visit the more Sam-leaning ones-and yes, sorry, but this one also makes me quite angry every time I visit it. So ends my rant-but again, you asked for it, Alice. Ciao. ;-)
Oh, and just to leave on amore positive note- I DO hope that I will be back at this time next season, because that will mean that they WILL have finally addressed some of these Deanfan issues.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-06-24 09:27
Quote:
Not in portraying an equally sympathetic view of both brothers thoughts and actions.
I don't see this in this site.
leah unlogged
# leah unlogged 2013-06-23 12:35
Shelby, I have felt more disrespected the last few days than I have in the years I have visited here. If someone offering an opinion that differs from you bothers you so much I can understand why you might have problems. No site is free from conflicts but this one has posters who, for the most part, respect each other and the views of others, even when disagreeing with one another. If you think that is dishonest so be it. All opinion are encouraged here so I will hope you will continue to comment.
Shelby
# Shelby 2013-06-23 12:54
Honestly? I do not think that I can help you with how you feel about anything, any more than you can help me with how I feel. IMO, and at this point within this particular fandom this conversation is simply a microcosm of why the entire fandom and it is, again IMO, predominantly why there is really no such thing as bi-bro site any longer-and it's THIS, that is to me more of the "Nature of the Beast" than anything else.

"Sam is clearly troubled about taking confession, so Dean offers his advice. Start with Ruby. Then he starts listing all the other sins Sam has done over the last few years, and now he’s hitting that sore spot again. Sure he’s a little playful and joking, thinking he’s not doing any harm and Sam just takes it, but this is hardly the first time Dean has brought this sort of thing up. It still stings with him, and he really doesn’t know how much such backhanded comments are sticking with Sam, and not in a good way"
As an example, Alice-This was the thing that probably angered me the most in your article-because Sam threw his happy, happy, apple pie life in Dean's face through-out the first half of the season and while Dean was going through his own trauma of having to transitioni back to normal after his YEAR! in Monsterland and yet, THAT was never addressed at all by the writers this season; and by very few fan bloggers either, for that matter.
Shelby
# Shelby 2013-06-23 12:58
edit-"a microcosm of why the entire fandom is as divided as it is;"
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-06-23 13:34
Well then both brothers are as bad has each other then .He does affect Sam you know Dean he does impact him and he did at a time Sam was at his most vunerable even if he did not realize it.
Shelby
# Shelby 2013-06-23 21:57
And Dean was called out on this by the writers in that last brother bonding scene, but Sam(again) was never called out specifically on any of his transgressions against Dean this season(again, all we got was a big, vague, and showy "no one can feel worse than I feel for always letting you down, Dean" speech); nor is he likely to be called out on them now. And even worse, Sam again implied that Dean's actions(decidin g to trust an angel or a vampire over Sam) were what fueled all the mistrust between them-which might have been the case for Sam-but not so for Dean-not at all-not in any way, shape, or form-and while Jensen's performance conveyed this fact far better than the dialogue did-still, the man deserved better dialogue in defending his choices and decisions. If Dean had never trusted Benny, he'd still be fighting for his life in Purgatory-IF he was lucky enough to even still be alive. And Benny further proved his worth with the sacrifice he made for both Dean AND Sam in getting Sam out of Purgatory. And as for Cas-since when has Sam been jealous of the attention that Dean has shown Cas? How could Dean possibly ever even have considered or imagined that Sam felt that way given the fact that Sam was always quicker than Dean to forgive Cas any transgressions against either of the brothers? This conflict between them shouldn't all just go away simply because half of the fandom wants it to now; and/or because they dislike it when the brothers clash on things. We haven't been afforded Dean's conscious and also true reasonings and thoughts behind his decisions to trust Benny and Cas. This conflict between the brothers should not be over and done with, with Dean only having been allowed to barely scratch the surface of his reasons for and behind his reasons for trusting both Cas and Benny. And more importantly, it should not be over w/o Dean being allowed to state HIS full view on why the trust between the brothers has eroded-for him(Dean)-since S4. Going down a list of "grievances" does not, in any way, cut it or explain the whole why of this, IMO. It is only the tip of that iceberg, again IMO. I can only hope that in the interests of balance, the writers will agree and show us this in S9. Not holding my breath on it, though-because it's only Dean, not Sam, and so a more in-depth look is not likely to be in the cards, if past writing is anything to go by.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-06-24 01:44
Why is it that your interpretation of the brother scene is that Sam was expressing jealousy for Deans friendships? I thought the writers clearly showed that Sam was showing how he felt about letting Dean down to the point that Dean had to turn to others because he couldn't trust Sam. It had nothing to do with who Deans friends were. I thought that the intention was for Sam to express that he felt that Dean didn't trust him because he had screwed up by trusting Ruby, killing Lilith, not looking for him and so on to the point that Dean had no choice but to turn to others. This scene wasn't about each brother sitting down and having a conversation about how they felt about the last 8 years and going into minute detail about each and every transgression made by one or the other and how it specifically affected their lives and how their perception of each other has changed or digressed or whatever. This was a scene about asking forgiveness and getting it, it was about one brother saving the life of the other. That is the point of confession after all. Maybe their will be another conversation that will clarify the issues that you have with the brothers relationship but I just don't think that was point of that particular scene.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-06-24 12:28
Shelby, I hope this doesn't seem like you are being ganged up on. I feel like we are Democrats and Republicans here. No one is ever going to change my political point of view but that doesn't mean that I don't want to try to understand the political point of view of the other party. I sincerely want to understand your point of view and I hope you continue to post here because I find you articulate and respectful while defending your position. What I really find amusing however is that Jensen/Dean and Jared/Sam don't seem to have the same issues that the fandom has. They probably feel that they are conveying their characters clearly to new and long term viewers. They understand that they can't rehash arguments that may seem very important to some fans when the story is going in another direction.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-06-24 03:38
What do you think that scene was about Shelby that last scene where a Sam on the verge of dying and standing there saying what his greatest sin was. I so cannot agree with your view.

I mean I would like one season where Sam's choices and decisions were not berated or seen has being wrong in that they apparently hurt Dean. The simple fact is that last scene was designed for us and Dean to know Sam had let Dean down many times and how broken and sick both physically and emotionally Sam was.

And no disrespect but Dean has vocalized his grievances it just happened to be that last scene was not meant to be one of them.
eilf
# eilf 2013-06-24 09:10
Quote:
The same thing happened in S5 in Fallen Idols. Dean's thoughts/view of the brothers' issues was left unexplored in their dialogues.
I keep seeing this argument. I don't get it. Did you not watch the previous episodes before Fallen Idols? Sam had spent the previous episodes trying to apologise. trying to recover, trying to atone, knowing that he would never be forgiven and knowing that worse things were coming for him and getting his ass kicked by all the other characters - they INTRODUCED characters just to blame him, it was not in any way left unclear that Sam blamed himself or that the whole in-world universe blamed him. And he tried to apologize directly and specifically to Dean, who let's face it, was not the person who suffered, or was likely to suffer, the most from the Apocalypse being on its way. Dean wouldn't let him but he watched the apology to Bobby (which was to him by proxy) avidly (which was a very well done scene by all three actors, by the way, though normally, of course, the only really good actor in any scene would be Jensen)
This episode is literally the only time in the entire series that it is acknowledged that Dean was instrumental in starting the apocalypse and ought to take some blame for it, the only one! And the only one who does acknowledge it is Dean and SAM lets him off the hook (as Sam always does).
So why is it that 4 solid years later you and Dean still think he is owed an apology? He really isn't and the writers should move on (or, as Dean says, the viewers will).
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-06-22 13:15
It’s difficult to know what fans want. For example if some fans say ‘We want Dean to have an active role in the mytharc’ then that is subject to huge interpretation. If I may play the devil’s advocate here for a moment, if Dean did take Castiel’s role in the angel tablet trials, if he did kill the nephilim, if he did cut off Cupid’s hand and if he inadvertently cast all the angels out of heaven, would those who are unhappy with Dean’s role in the mytharc be happy with that role in the mytharc? Would they be okay with the criticism that he might get from viewers, and would surely get from characters on the show next year? Again, to keep it balanced, those who lament Sam’s lack of POV and his almost non-existent interaction with other characters, would fans sacrifice what he does have (an active role in the mytharc) for what he doesn’t? (Disclaimer: I’m not saying I can do anything about it! I’m just genuinely curious because I can see both sides. As much as I don’t overly agree with the assessment that Dean doesn’t have a role in the mytharc and Sam doesn’t have a POV I’ve read enough to understand where these fans are coming from.)

There is no doubt that season 8 is a hugely divisive season, and it has been from well before the season even started. Many fans were antsy from the offset (myself included) and many fans from both sides of the ‘divide’ grew more frustrated as the season went on as both sets of fans realised that maybe they weren’t going to get what they felt they had been led to believe they were going to get; a solidified, active role in the season mytharc (ie the trials) for Dean and a personal POV for Sam. Both sets of fans then grew dissatisfied with what they got at the start of the season; Dean fans because the Purgatory storyline ended abruptly and the effects of it didn’t carry forward and Sam fans because the Amelia storyline was a bit of a dead duck which told us little about Sam or his state of mind etc when Dean was in Purgatory. Do both sets of fans have a right to feel gyped? Course they do and I feel it’s possible that this too has carried forward in terms of how those fans view what they got for the rest of the season.

Add to that, a lot of traits and characteristics that we might not particularly like to associate with Sam and Dean have really been brought to the forefront this season. Painful issues that we believed resolved came forth again and each time they did, it reignited the emotion, the hurt etc that we felt the first time it happened and that, coupled with new issues that arose have left many fans on both sides of the ‘divide’ angry, disappointed and frustrated and this is telling in both the way many comments are made and also how many comments are received. Throughout the year there have been many comments that have been subject to criticism, the bulk of which have come from fans frustrated with Sam’s story.

Now, this is where things start getting a bit contentious (and confusing), sorry. There have been (a few) claims that this site is not friendly for Dean fans. I’m not going to tell people why I think that it is (friendly), mainly because I don’t feel that this site needs to be defended in terms of its balance. A quick, overall look at the comments in the active articles and in the archives show the due time, care and consideration that has been given to Dean (and Sam) in terms of articles and in terms of comments. Obnoxiously long holidays and an inherent laziness means that I’ve been able to read back over an awful lot of the comments posted here and aside from the usual, small tit-for-tat (and it IS tit-for-tat, both sides are active participants here) I haven’t seen any hostility specifically aimed towards those who comment about Dean. (M, I’d be very interested in seeing some examples of where you feel you met with hostility every time you commented on Dean. Perhaps if you read back over the archives you’d recognise your own comments and remember your username?) Sure there are a few extreme Sam fans here just as there are a few extreme Dean fans but on the whole, I find the majority of fans here to be balanced, fair and considerate in terms of how they see the show, the brothers and the comments posted. Anyone could go looking and find examples of when someone talked Sam/Dean down but you would also find twice the number of examples that talked them up. For every poster who might have been unfairly jumped on there were always 2 or 3 posters (and often a moderator) who stepped in to defend them. Okay, no site is nirvana in terms of it be a perfectly ‘safe’ place for people to express their opinions but, for me, this place is as good as they get. You always run the risk of being contradicted or argued with or rebutted when you post online but that’s just the nature of the beast.
just saying
# just saying 2013-06-22 13:35
No offense, but to me this is kind of the response that makes this site seem unwelcoming to different opinions. When someone says that they don't feel comfortable, the response here tends to be, "Phht, what? No you don't. You don't have any reason to feel this way. We're all nice here, and it's a lot better than anywhere else. So maybe you just are looking for some utopia that doesn't exist." That immediately invalidates the first person's feelings, and implicates that the problem must lie with the person saying they're not comfortable. That may not be the intention of the posters, but that's how it can come off.

You don't have to agree with someone's opinion, of course, and if you've never had a problem, that's great. But by generalizing that this site is as good as it gets and that you don't that there's really a problem, it seems to point the finger back at the person who does have a problem as being at fault for not feeing that this site is friendly. That's not very friendly to me.

And while some posters may not specifically attack Dean-friendly posters, Dean fans may tire of reading tirades against him in the comments, which may make them feel unwelcome. Fans are of course welcome to post as they wish, but I would think by the bashing I've seen of TWOP that fans here would appreciate that reading people downing your favorite while boosting their favorite can be uncomfortable. Posts that trash Sam are vigorously defended, and posts trashing Dean as much more likely to be allowed to stand by fan without question, at least in my reading experience here. Again, fans here are not required to do any differently than that, but that is part of the reason that, at least to me, this is much more a Sam-friendly site than a bi-bro site. You may not see it, and that's fine.

But a flood of posts trying to convince me that I'm wrong for feeling that way doesn't really change my mind much.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-06-22 14:10
No offence but maybe Sam fans are more used to having to defend him so speak up now than more in the past. It is not the sites job to either encourage or discourage but allow open debate. If Dean fans feel that he is being attacked unfairly then is it not down to them to speak up.

It seems both the site and other posters are being made responsible for and being blamed for what is really down to a individual poster nobody is blocking or putting up barriers to any response . There as been both Dean And Sam articles where feelings have run high esp depending on the sl at that time. I have visited both TWOP and IMDb board as a Sam fan and this site does not even come close.

Nobody's mind has to be changed but it is nice actually to have a site that is Sam -friendly but one that is also balanced .
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-06-22 14:52
I agree with this Sharon.
just saying
# just saying 2013-06-22 16:12
Oh, I agree completely. It certainly is not Sam fans' duty to step up and defend Dean when he's attacked unfairly. I was simply offering a perspective of why this site is seen as more Sam friendly.

I further agree that it is up to the individual posters to post what they think; however, as a collective, they set the tone for a board. As you cited, TWOP and IMDB are notorious for their bias, but that's not because of what the site runners post to me. It's due to the comments and biases therein of the posters who frequent there. Would you agree to that?

Finally, I agree that there's nothing wrong with this being a Sam-friendly site. There's nothing wrong with emotions running high on either side of a debate--that's going to happen on any site. To some posters, though, there's a pattern of posting here that makes it seem less balanced to some than to others. Again, that's a matter of perspective. I just thought I'd offer mine.

But no offense taken. Everyone's mileage varies.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-06-22 17:46
Quote:
Oh, I agree completely. It certainly is not Sam fans' duty to step up and defend Dean when he's attacked unfairly. I was simply offering a perspective of why this site is seen as more Sam friendly.

I further agree that it is up to the individual posters to post what they think; however, as a collective, they set the tone for a board. As you cited, TWOP and IMDB are notorious for their bias, but that's not because of what the site runners post to me. It's due to the comments and biases therein of the posters who frequent there. Would you agree to that?

Finally, I agree that there's nothing wrong with this being a Sam-friendly site. There's nothing wrong with emotions running high on either side of a debate--that's going to happen on any site. To some posters, though, there's a pattern of posting here that makes it seem less balanced to some than to others. Again, that's a matter of perspective. I just thought I'd offer mine.

But no offense taken. Everyone's mileage varies.
None intended as for balance of posting it still comes back down to Dean fans . And I am getting the feeling that this site being Sam friendly is a problem if it is being used as a reason by some in being alienated and not posting.
just saying
# just saying 2013-06-22 18:06
Mmm, I think it's a bit more of a two-way street than that. I agree Dean fans have to be more present and vocal if they think that a site doesn't represent them enough. But I don't think it's solely on Dean fans. I disagree that the site being Sam friendly is the problem--I think the presence of anti-Dean comments is also a problem. I don't think being Sam friendly means being anti-Dean necessarily, but when being Sam friendly means emphasizing on Dean's faults while blaming Sam's on the writers (not that you've done this, but I've seen this here) it does lead to an imbalance in posting. So I half agree--Dean fans have to persevere and help make the site more balanced, and a Sam friendly site has to be open to listening to those fans, instead of dismissing their concerns/feelin gs/issues as just their wrong ideas instead of legitimate points.
eilf
# eilf 2013-06-22 18:26
Honestly (and then I am done) the Dean posters on here can be just as strongly worded and opinionated as the Sam posters, and just as unwilling to let go of an argument.
If you think the Dean posters are wilting wallflowers who are easily intimidated then you really haven't looked around the site comments enough! :D That goes for Sam posters too.
Yes there is a point of view that Sam's faults lie with the writers because there is no prior canon to interpret them. And there is a point of view that when Dean does something wrong it isn't 'wrong' because it was Dean who did it and we always know Dean's reasoning for stuff. These are two points of view, they are not the only points of view on the site.
leah unlogged
# leah unlogged 2013-06-22 18:32
Very true eilf :lol:
just saying
# just saying 2013-06-22 18:39
Oh, I'm sure that I agree that not all Dean posters are wilting wallflowers that are easily intimidated, though it has been represented to me that the lack of Dean defense is the responsibility of Dean fans not speaking up. I think some Dean fans might, in many arguments, feel outnumbered and may decide that it's no longer worth it, though I wouldn't presume to speak for all Dean posters. Take this conversation, for example--it's been a bit exhausting to respond 4 on 1. Only in the last few comments did I feel there was common ground found, and it did take us some time to get there. So I can see why some Dean fans might decide it wouldn't be worth the effort and find a board that makes conversation a little easier for them.

However, I do agree that it's impossible to characterize all Sam posters as this or all Dean posters as that. Fans come in all flavors and all temperaments. Like I said to Leah, maybe it's time to stop talking about the boards and actually discuss something on the board. Any ideas?
eilf
# eilf 2013-06-22 18:44
Apologies if you feel that you are outnumbered. That was not my intention. :-)
Ale
# Ale 2013-06-24 14:27
Just saying and Shelby: I have to say, I'm a HUGE, HUGE Dean fan but still I don't agree with your assessment. I believe Dean has got a lot of POV; has ALWAYS been ESSENTIAL to the story without the need to have demon blood inside him and in every season has been portrayed as a hero, although a flawed one. And I LOVE, LOVE him that way. I would say to Dean the same he said to Cas once: "don´t ever change".

For me, he doesn't need to change, just to evolve and mature, learning from his experience and more sure of himself. And I believe this is what we are getting now, for Dean and Sam both. I'm happy. Sorry if you are not, but being happy with the story as it is don't mean I'm less of a Dean fan. I certainly don't feel that way.
just saying
# just saying 2013-06-24 15:53
Oh, not all Dean fans are going to make the same assessments. Not all Sam fans are going to make the same assessments. Everyone has their own perspective/mil eage that they bring to the table, so there's never going to be uniform opinions. I have no problem with that. :lol:

I don't think that demon blood is in any way necessary, nor do I think it was suggested. At the same time, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting Dean to have a storyline that's seen through to completion, or that he has to change somehow in order to receive a role in the mytharc. For me, these are two different subjects.

I agree that both characters need to evolve, mature, and learn from their experiences. To me, this last season Dean did not so much mature as revert back to S1, which to me is not evolving. It's moving backwards, or at least staying stagnant. To me, Sam suddenly pining for normal was also a reversion back to season 1, not maturation, and I don't think it served him much better. That's my perspective, and it's fine if others don't share it.

I'm not sure that anyone said that being happy with the story made you less of a Dean fan. I don't think it does, just as my being not as happy with his story makes me less of one in my view. There's room under the tent for all of us, don't you think?
Ale
# Ale 2013-06-24 16:30
"There's room under the tent for all of us, don't you think?"

Oh, I completely agree with you on that. I respect your opinion and I understand it, although I don't agree with it.

My point is: please, don't think think this site is less Dean friendly, or leans towards Sam, because there aren't more people that share the same opinion as you concerning Dean. For me, the difference of this site is that it tends to have HAPPIER fans than other sites - like me! :lol: . It means that here is a place where fans do not usually bash any character (Dean, Sam, Cas or anyone else) and there isn't overwhelming negativity over the show as a whole - which, IMO, is tiring and put off people that enjoy the show, like me, again.

This doesn't mean that opinions of fans that are not satisfied this the story or with the characters are unwelcome - I like very much to read different sides from reasonable people, like you. So, please, never feel uncomfortable to express your opinion here. You will be gladly read, but I assure you, you will also read replies to your posts from every POV!
just saying
# just saying 2013-06-24 17:00
I'm glad there's room under the tent for everyone. That's always a good thing. I don't think agreement is necessary, but respect pretty much is. So it's good that we've got that as common ground, even if we disagree.

As for bashing or negativity or leanings of the site/posters, I don't think there's much reason to go into that again. I've said my piece, others have said theirs, and to me, the only way to go is forward to discuss show and see what transpires.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-06-24 17:21
#just saying, glad to see you back today and I like the idea that there is room under the tent for us all. Thank you. That is always how I felt.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-06-24 17:16
I agree very much with this Ale. I don't want to feel that I am less of a Dean fan because I view the show in more positive light. As I do the characters. As I do this site.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-06-22 18:36
Quote:
Mmm, I think it's a bit more of a two-way street than that. I agree Dean fans have to be more present and vocal if they think that a site doesn't represent them enough. But I don't think it's solely on Dean fans. I disagree that the site being Sam friendly is the problem--I think the presence of anti-Dean comments is also a problem. I don't think being Sam friendly means being anti-Dean necessarily, but when being Sam friendly means emphasizing on Dean's faults while blaming Sam's on the writers (not that you've done this, but I've seen this here) it does lead to an imbalance in posting. So I half agree--Dean fans have to persevere and help make the site more balanced, and a Sam friendly site has to be open to listening to those fans, instead of dismissing their concerns/feelings/issues as just their wrong ideas instead of legitimate points.
Sorry but there can never be a Dean free critic fandom anymore than there can be a Sam one and Sam has received just if not more emphasis on his faults from Dean fans .I am not sure what is wanted here no criticism of Dean so that Dean posters fill more comfortable posting ?.
just saying
# just saying 2013-06-22 18:49
I'm sorry, I thought I'd been more clear. I don't think anyone is asking for a Dean free-from-criti cism forum, anymore than Sam fans really expect Sam to never receive criticism. I also agree that Sam has had a tough time with some Dean fans, just as Dean has a hard time from some Sam fans. I think when fans of either faction go overboard it's problematic for everyone, so I don't think that's really the issue here.

But more what I was addressing here was the perception by some fans that this is a board that isn't really welcoming for them due to the pattern of posting where some negative opinions/attack ing posts on some characters are pounced on by multiple posters while other negative opinions/attack ing posts on some characters are considered acceptable. Again, not everyone will hold the same perspective, but the question seems to be what those fans feeling uncomfortable want. So no, I don't think no criticism of Dean is necessary for fans to feel comfortable. I think a sense that all opinions are really welcomed and those not fitting with the site board's primary leanings are not immediately attacked/dismis sed. Still, that's my perspective only. Does that explain better?
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-06-22 14:12
Quote:
No offense, but to me this is kind of the response that makes this site seem unwelcoming to different opinions. When someone says that they don't feel comfortable, the response here tends to be, "Phht, what? No you don't. You don't have any reason to feel this way. We're all nice here, and it's a lot better than anywhere else. So maybe you just are looking for some utopia that doesn't exist." That immediately invalidates the first person's feelings, and implicates that the problem must lie with the person saying they're not comfortable. That may not be the intention of the posters, but that's how it can come off.
That’s not at all what I’m saying. I am trying to raise the discussion as to why people feel uncomfortable. What I am also trying to get across is that you can’t label and bash a site because you might not be reading what you want to read, yet this has happened.

Quote:
You don't have to agree with someone's opinion, of course, and if you've never had a problem, that's great. But by generalizing that this site is as good as it gets and that you don't that there's really a problem, it seems to point the finger back at the person who does have a problem as being at fault for not feeing that this site is friendly. That's not very friendly to me.
just saying, I used the words ‘for me’ more than once throughout my comment. I did say that a site is whatever you decide to take from it. You’ve decided to take it’s pro Sam from what you’ve read. I find that there is plenty of evidence that this is not the case.

You mentioned that Dean fans may tire of reading tirades against him in the comments. May I ask a genuine question, tirades against him where? Have people criticised him? Yes. Have people also defended him? Yes. Have people criticised Sam? Yes. Have people also defended him? Yes.

Quote:
But a flood of posts trying to convince me that I'm wrong for feeling that way doesn't really change my mind much.
Nor should it be expected to. However, some people have no hesitation in criticising the site so surely those who do post on here should be allowed to defend it. Embracing different opinions and all that!
just saying
# just saying 2013-06-22 16:24
Again, that's a problem for me. Saying that people are labeling and "bashing" a site because they're not reading what they want to read is implying that there's some sense of pettiness on the part of those who might feel differently than you. It's not that they genuinely feel uncomfortable when they post here or read the comments here--it's that they're not getting their way so they're pitching a fit. Fair enough if it's your perspective, but it doesn't feel like you're trying to discuss why some feel uncomfortable. It feels more like dismissing others' opinions as wrong to me.

I understand that you used the words 'for me'. I used the words 'to me' as well, if I'm not mistaken. I further agree that a site is what you take from it. It is your perspective that people who feel this is a pro-Sam site are wrong. It is my perspective that they might not necessarily be. Perspectives vary, so I'm fine with that.

So if we can agree, there have been some tirades against both Sam and Dean at times. To me, it's not a matter of citing one specific argument--to me, there's a pattern of posting that feels like there's more defense of Sam than Dean here. You may not feel that way, and that's fine. Again, I am simply trying to offer a view of why some perceive the site this way. Like I said to Sharon above, there's nothing inherently wrong with this site having a more pro-Sam leaning among the comments due to volume and pattern. There's nothing wrong to me with a site leaning one way or the other. There just seemed to be a sense of surprise that others might not view this site as balanced, and this is part of the reason why to me.

Of course you may disagree with me and defend the site. Nothing wrong with that at all. I'm not saying your opinion is wrong (though it still feels like you might feel that mine is). We can agree to disagree, and no harm's done.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-06-24 09:21
Quote:
Saying that people are labeling and "bashing" a site because they're not reading what they want to read is implying that there's some sense of pettiness on the part of those who might feel differently than you. It's not that they genuinely feel uncomfortable when they post here or read the comments here--it's that they're not getting their way so they're pitching a fit.
Once again, just saying, none of which I actually said.

In Shelby’s initial comment, she said that the reason some Dean fans don’t feel comfortable posting here is because she felt that the writers of the site were indifferent to or paid little attention to what she felt was the poor writing for Jensen Ackles/Dean. (Note, I did not say that she labelled or bashed the site). I find her reasons to be perfectly understandable. However, as was evident in Part One of the Dean Winchester article, there are some who came here to simply bash the site. They say there is too much Sam fawning or Dean criticism. The point of my comment was to show that for as much Sam fawning as there is, there is also plenty of Dean fawning. For as much Dean criticism as there is there is also plenty of Sam criticism. Is it enough for some? Perhaps not.

Also, it’s not my perspective who feel this is a pro-Sam site are wrong. It’s actually my perspective that those who feel that it’s a pro Sam site are right. It’s those who feel that it is ONLY a pro Sam site that I feel are wrong. There is plenty of Dean love here as well.

I also believe that, what you believe to be a sense of surprise that others might not view this site as balanced, is more a sense of surprise that some believe that the site is not supportive of Dean.

Also, might I point out, just saying, that at no stage did I say or insinuate that I feel your opinion is wrong. However if that is what you are determined to believe I’m not going to waste my time debating it with you.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-06-24 09:18
.
eilf
# eilf 2013-06-22 16:00
I am sorry to be in the 'flood' of contradictory arguments but Tim's point is valid - even if only because it is her opinion and she is entitled to it - personally I agree with her. You are also entitled to yours. Quote:
that fans here would appreciate that reading people downing your favorite while boosting their favorite can be uncomfortable.
I agree with this though, for example, a poster above has brought acting skills, and the priority she feels that should give one character, into this discussion. Which personally I feel is uncalled for.
So there you go, this discussion can go round and round.
I believe that Sam was underwritten beginning of the season, I think it was a bad decision because it took away from (instead of balancing) the Purgatory storyline. I really hope that Dean is given the mytharc next season with the caveat that Sam needs to be a less opaque and isolated character. I also want to see Castiel (and Charlie and Benny) used in a way that enhances the storyline and doesn't (as I see it) unbalance it in favor of one character's interactions.
just saying
# just saying 2013-06-22 16:56
Oh, I agree that Tim’s perspective is entirely valid, as is yours. I also think my points are valid, but that’s my perspective. Nothing wrong with us holding opposite opinions, right?

Sometimes people’s opinions make us uncomfortable, no doubt about that. I’m getting the sense that people are not comfortable with what I’m saying here, and that’s unfortunate. Of course there are two sides to every story—I fully understand why those who like Sam would be uncomfortable at TWOP, for example. If a Sam fan wanted to voice their discomfort with being on that site, I don’t think that would be wrong. Futile, perhaps (as I’m starting to feel my posting here has become), but certainly appropriate. Again, to me, it’s not a matter of any specific comment—it’ s a consistent pattern that I perceive. You may not, and that’s fine.

I agree that the writing did Sam many favors in the first half the season. I also don’t think the writing in the second half did Dean many favors. I think show should be able to write in a way that benefits both characters throughout the entire season (imagine that!). I agree that it would be fantastic to see Sam become a less isolated character, i.e., giving him a humanistic story that isn’t so profoundly rejected by fandom due to terribleness. I further agree that it would be lovely to see Dean given a season-long arc that is about his character and doesn’t just fade away into nothing. I even agree that I hope to see the side characters used in a way that enhances the boys’ storylines, rather than detracting from them.

So it seems we’ve found some common ground here at the end, which is a good thing, right?
eilf
# eilf 2013-06-22 17:41
Quote:
I agree that the writing did (not do) Sam many favors in the first half the season. I also don’t think the writing in the second half did Dean many favors.
I think that we can agree on this :D Sounds like we aren't too far apart. Welcome to the site. Enjoy posting.

Hmm the quote thingy may not be working...
just saying
# just saying 2013-06-22 18:10
A lot of posters aren't really that far apart, I think, once we get past all the trappings. Sam and Dean both getting POV, both a storyline and an emotional arc that are present throughout the season and followed to their conclusions, and their share of caring and being cared for by their brother. Sounds easy when you put it like that, doesn't it? :-)

I don't know quotes yet, but I've figured out emoticons!
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-06-22 16:05
No offense also meant, but why would you want to post on a site that you think is so unfriendly and unbalanced. Is it wrong that we would want to defend our site? More wrong than you expressing your opinions? It is all about differing opinions. Yours are welcome too. But every opinion is subject to disagreement. I think the bigger issue here is how one expresses themselves and if you give respect, you will get it in return most times.
leah unlogged
# leah unlogged 2013-06-22 17:03
Just to add that this IS a very Sam friendly site. I think we can all agree on that. But that does not mean that it is a Dean hostile site. If you have seen so many anti-Dean comments, why not post and make it a more "balanced" environment then. I defend Dean all the time from what I feel is unfair or unduly harsh comments. Do I wish there were more people who feel like I do? Sometimes. But apparently they leave only to return and criticize. I still believe the vast majority of people here are "nice". So shoot me!! :-) And as for the content of the articles, the reputation for fairness is well deserved.
just saying
# just saying 2013-06-22 17:20
I agree that this is very Sam friendly site. It doesn't necessarily mean it is a Dean hostile site, though you state yourself that you defend Dean all the time from unfair or unduly harsh comments. But since the comment above basically seemed to discourage me from posting, I'm not sure if I'm really meant to stay and make it a more balanced site (from my perspective), or just take my leave. I'd say that's why some fans leave and only return to posting when they see others questioning why this site has a reputation among some.

I never said anything to characterize the people who post here. I think it's quite probable that they are all nice people. I'm sure many of the posters on TWOP or IMDB are quite nice people, too. I simply pointed to a pattern of posting that makes some feel unwelcome. I don't think this site is equivalent with the two sites I mentioned above at all, but I do think that if you wish that there were more people here who felt like you do, it's worth examining why there aren't.
leah unlogged
# leah unlogged 2013-06-22 18:02
Well I am truly sorry you feel that way. My comment about about harsh criticisms was not to say that it happens all the time, rarely in fact. Just that I am not fearful of expressing my opinion here. To be VERY clear you are welcome here, why not hang around?
just saying
# just saying 2013-06-22 18:14
Thank you, sincerely. I'll try my best to hang around. Maybe it's time to stop talking about the board and discuss something on the board instead, yeah?
leah unlogged
# leah unlogged 2013-06-22 18:34
Please, yes!! :lol:
just saying
# just saying 2013-06-22 18:50
Any ideas? I'm open to suggestion. :lol:
leah unlogged
# leah unlogged 2013-06-22 19:08
HA. Not right this moment but I am sure we will have many opportunities as time goes on. The hiatus is endless and much discussion and debating will ensue. :-)
just saying
# just saying 2013-06-22 17:13
That’s that tone again. “You’re not one of us, so why are you posting here?” Well, maybe that’s not what you meant, but it felt that way, a bit. If I think a site is unbalanced, would it be wrong of me to post there in order to make it feel (from my perspective) a little more balanced? I don’t think it is—part of the solution, not part of the problem, and all that. (Though to clarify, I really don’t think this site is always unfriendly to others—but there are times when I don’t think debate/varying opinions are as welcome as it is being presented). I don’t think I ever indicated that it was wrong for you to defend the site. In fact, I believe I said that the perspectives opposing my own were valid—I just think mine are valid as well. I agree that every opinion is subject to disagreement and debate. I'm unclear on the intent behind your last line, however--are you saying that I am being disrespectful by stating my perspective?
leah unlogged
# leah unlogged 2013-06-22 17:34
Please see my second comment. You read too much into my earlier comment. In no way was I saying you shouldn't post here. But there has been a few posters who have come on here lately leading with "this site sucks" ( ok, an exaggeration :-) ) and wonder why we might have issue with that. I love to see new people ( or ones who have left and come back) join the conversation and I do not have to agree with them. For you to think I had a "tone" that implied that you are not welcome here is showing me that you are choosing to see this site as hostile which I disagree with.
just saying
# just saying 2013-06-22 17:51
Your second comment made much more sense to me, which is why I responded to that as well. I never said this site sucked, and I didn't see anyone else who did, either. But here again, you characterizing my feelings as something I chose, rather than something I felt. There's no possible way I could have read that tone into your comment--I have to be exaggerating in order to grasp for some signs of hostility, instead of actually feeling your words were a bit hostile. So if you disagree with me characterizing your tone as hostile, can I disagree with you characterizing my feelings as less than legitimate?

But you know what, I don't think this particular point is worth continuing the spat over. I will accept that I read more into your comment than was intended, ignore the fact that you seem to think I was being disingenuous in my response, and say we're all good. Is that agreeable?
eilf
# eilf 2013-06-22 17:39
Quote:
That’s that tone again. “You’re not one of us, so why are you posting here?” Well, maybe that’s not what you meant, but it felt that way, a bit.
I believe Leah was asking you that as a genuine question, there wasn't a tone. She is a very fair poster* and doesn't understand why there needs to be bad feeling on here.
*I am not saying you are NOT a fair poster but I have seen a lot of Leah's posts and so I want to clarify it.
just saying
# just saying 2013-06-22 17:58
Leah explained that she was intending this a genuine question, and I sincerely appreciate that as well as your reassurance. Thank you.

I'd prefer not to have bad feelings here, either. Internet can be hard in matching tones and intentions without vocal clues. Maybe from here on out, it would be easier if we take each other at our words, instead of trying to read the intentions (being unwelcoming, deliberately trying to read hostility into things, etc) and causing further trouble? I fully admit to my part in that, and will do my best to refrain to addressing more than just the specific words in a post from now on. Sound good?
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-06-23 14:01
Quote:
Again, to keep it balanced, those who lament Sam’s lack of POV and his almost non-existent interaction with other characters, would fans sacrifice what he does have (an active role in the mytharc) for what he doesn’t?
As long as I got a reasonably well explored Sam POV, I'd give the mytharc up in a heartbeat. I can honestly say the only times I enjoyed Sam's role in the mytharc was in seasons 1-3, when it was used to help his characterizatio n. Season one had Sam feeling guilty about not telling Jess about his dreams and worrying that the visions meant something was wrong with him. Season 2 was how the stress of being told that Dean might have to kill him because Sam might turn into something evil affected Sam. Season 3 was about how Dean going to Hell was affecting Sam's mental health, although I can make the argument that Dean going to Hell was the mytharc in season 3 and that had there been time, Sam would have gotten the look at his breaking down under pressure. After season 3 Sam's role in the the mytharc seemed to be acting hinky and being mysterious. Season four had him running off with Ruby with very little shown of why he was abandoning Dean, which to me was a failure in portraying Dean's mental state as well as neglecting Sam. If the show had been willing to SHOW Dean becoming less to non functional as a result of his PTSD from Hell, Sam believing that Dean couldn't handle Lilith would have been more understandable. I actually thought the mytharc in season 5 was pretty well balanced, but I know that is a point of disagreement, so I'll leave it at that. In any case, Sam's part in the mytharc revolved around standing around and not saying yes to Lucifer until he did. Dean was understandably upset about being Michael's vessel, but we rarely saw how being the designated vessel for the ultimate evil affected Sam. Soulless!Sam didn't shed much light on Sam's emotions because SS didn't have emotions and then the wall blocked regular Sam's emotions so his involvement in that part of the mytharc left me cold. I'm not sure the season seven mytharc revolved around either Sam or Dean, but squeezing his hand every so often, a call back to his previous mytharc, did not impress me a Sam characterizatio n. I would not have been in the least bit unhappy if Dean had done the Hell trials. We saw the physical effect of the trials on Sam, but again not much POV.

So basically the mytharc is a wash for me. I like a mytharc and a storyline that runs through the season, but since it rarely sheds light on Sam's character, I have no need for it to "go to Sam". HOWEVER, if he doesn't get the mytharc then I really need for Sam's emotions to be front and center. I want Dean doing sketchy things and making outright bad choices without one word of explanation. No single tears as he makes his choice. No flashbacks to being tortured by Alistair. Just Dean is on a quest and doing bad things and can Sam keep him human, because I am damned sick of the other way around. The sad thing is that I deeply suspect that if Dean gets the mytharc, we will see every moment of every decision Dean makes while Sam stand in the background trying to pull Dean back from the edge and being called mean and selfish because he isn't acknowledging how much Dean is suffering for what he does.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-06-22 13:22
However, I do feel there is a huge misconception out there about what constitutes ‘negativity†™ toward a character and/or a site. People have to be aware that not reading what you want to read is not negativity; sorry but that is not negativity. You might not feel comfortable posting if you think people might not agree with you but that is not the responsibility of the site. Somebody disagreeing with another person’s comment and/or opinion is not an attack on them. Reading things that you disagree with, reading interpretations that you think are biased, is not negativity. I made a comment about how Dean’s statement to Sam and Bobby in 6.01 needs to be taken with a grain of salt and for me, it does. For me, it is a dodgy, dodgy statement. The phrasing and the feasibility of what Dean said make it so. I’ve already given my argument about it elsewhere and once I find it, I’ll copy and paste it here. I don’t see my interpretation of that statement as being anti-Dean because, for me, it shows commonalities in thinking and action in relation to Dean’s mindset when Sam was in hell and Sam’s mindset when Dean was in Purgatory. Others will surely disagree, others will assume I’m anti-Dean or label me, and by association the site, such. However, if (sorry, when!) others disagree with me, will that then give me the right to say that this site is anti-Sam?

At the other end of the spectrum, reading positive commentary about Sam/Dean and/or their storyline that doesn’t tie in with that posters belief about Sam/Dean and/or their storyline is not negativity. Shelby (if I read her correctly) hit the nail on the head in relation to why it’s possible that some Dean fans don’t feel comfortable here (and it’s an argument I’ve read elsewhere); because many of the fans posting here don’t see what the fans who are unhappy with what they see in season eight, see (you think that was confusing reading it, try typing it!). It ties in with another argument I’ve come across that the only people who are happy with the Dean that they saw in season eight are Sam fans because ‘true’ Dean fans would want more for him than (as some see it) just being Sam’s nursemaid. On the other side of that there’s also a belief that the Sam fans that are happy with what they saw for Sam in season 8 aren’t true Sam fans because if they were they’d want more for him than (as some see it) just being a plot point. There's really no winning, is there!

There was an article written here some time ago about self-fulfilling prophesy (I can’t remember by whom, sorry) in relation to the show; the whole idea that we only see what we want to see and what we want to see is based on our preconceived ideas about something, before we even see it. That’s wholly evident in this thread (and every thread you look at in every site). There were a buttload of positive comments about Dean and his strengths and whatnot on here and as soon as somebody gave a different analysis to a situation, that is what is being held up as evidence of the sites ‘anti-Dean stance’. Ironically, back in the early season, there was huge criticism of Sam and his not looking for Dean, his attitude to Benny, and his actions in Citizen Fang. Those who want to could easily hold that up as ‘evidence’ of the sites ‘anti-Sam stance’. We pick and present evidence that ‘proves’ what we already believe. That is why, for me, sites such as this work better than a site that presents a common mindset, because very often they can present an alternative explanation or give you clarity by showing you another side of things so, for example, instead of focusing what Dean doesn’t have, it focuses on what he does have. I’m not sure why that might make some fans uncomfortable but seemingly it does. With all due respect lads, this site is whatever you want it to be; pro-Dean, pro-Sam, anti-Dean, anti-Sam, pro-both, anti-both. If you want to find criticism of Sam/Dean/Castie l etc, you’ll find it. If you want to find love and/or appreciation of Sam/Dean/Castie l etc you’ll also find that, in abundance. Perhaps the biggest flaw the site and those who post here have is that they are, for the most part, positive about the show and in a season where there has been a lot of discontent, some find that objectionable?

* Sam fans and Dean fans is just a collective term I’m using, for ease. I don’t mean all Dean fans think the same thing and/or all Sam fans think the same thing.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-06-19 09:56
Not to get involved with this the site slant towards one character because one I do not agree this one of the more balanced sites. The reasons a Dean fan can claim not to post here a Sam fan can easily claim on sites elsewhere ..
Sam got a story arc with the trials in the second half but the first half was not exactly a great one for Sam while Dean sat fiddling his fingers with nothing to do .
Maybe the trials sl should of gone to Dean on top of Purgatory and his developing relationship with Benny but they obviously felt differently .
debbab
# debbab 2013-06-22 12:24
Yes, Dean's character was allowed to grow but remember the writers have to stay within the basic nature/roles created by Kripke. IMHO both actors had scenes this season which allowed them to demonstrate their fine acting skills, not just with delivery of lines but with physical and facial gestures. Both are so talented. Rewatch and see how many times Sam does not react when Dean has the emotional speech. This non reaction is important to Sam's inner pain. I do agree that BFWB was off the path, but probably squished into the season to relieve the intensity of the main arc. It was worth watching for the opening br-o-ment about the Stooges, which indicated that the brothers had lighter moments off screen and the moments where the viewer was reminded of what Hell was for each of them- good for new viewers. Other than that it was a sleep walk episode. Bitten was the other episode that did not give either actor much work, but did show the area of grey that Dean had developed. Sam had to be the one to do the trials if the writers were ever going to get Sam to expose his feelings and remember, the creation of SPN always has Dean saving Sam. That is core.That is a pretty important story line. but does not call for overt and grandeur. Ackles is crucial enough to the series and he is not miffed (no rumours on set). The relationship is the heart of the show.
I think the writers missed an opportunity when they cut Dean's PTSD short-much more could have been explored, but there are time constraints on the series and the main arc had to march on. It was a clever attempt to divide the season into two-perhaps to reflect that our hunters are two separate people. Not sure the experiment was a great success. Watch the season in re-runs and see how in retrospect Jared and Jensen interpret the scripts knowing what we now know. The season's arc is outlined from the git go so the producers knew where it would end this year-we did not. Just my opinion,
Dean might get the sl since Cas is closer to him and the angels. It would be okay if the writers let Sam take a knee and recover, but who knows what Dean will have to do to fix Sam? So there is potential- not sure the writers will reinterpret Kripke's basic set up. Hellitus is so hard.
love2boys unlogged
# love2boys unlogged 2013-06-23 16:09
Back to Season Eight Dean Winchester - Dean WAS well-rounded as a character. He was bad-ass warrior in the beginning of the season AND at the end. He was a nurturing caregiver. He was funny. He made mistakes. He was heartbreakingly emotional. He was flawed. He was empathetic. He was sober. He was creative. He strategized (Word says that is a real word-who knew?). He was more.

If I met a real-life man that was as well-rounded as Dean, I think I would fall on the floor. A well-rounded Dean wasn't boring to me. Not even in the second half of the season. He was just showing more of his character.

This does not mean I don't have some problems with the season, or that I would have done everything Season 8 Dean did. It just means that I think showing a man that can be BAMF and caring at the same time makes him well-rounded, not boring or flawed.
just saying
# just saying 2013-06-23 17:58
Respectfully, I'm not sure I'd agree Dean (or Sam) was that well-rounded in S8. I think there was a very audible clunk where the characters changed gears from the first half to the second half, and Dean is the biggest example of that to me. I thought Dean showed much more complexity in the first half, but in the second half, when the PTB lost their stomach for the brothers' conflict, they pretty much just swept all of Dean's issues under the rug. By 'cleansing' Dean in purgatory and subsequently ridding him of all the baggage associated with purgatory (Benny, leaving Cas), Dean lost all of that edge. A lot of his complexity disappeared and was replaced with S1 Dean--just happy to be here and watch out for Sammy. At that point, he was pretty well dedicated to protecting Sam and helping Sam and trying to make things right with Sam. That's why the little speech Dean gave to help Sam with his confession seemed so out of place (and so clearly there to be the catalyst for the big dramatic moment of the finale)--becaus e since Torn and Frayed we'd seen Dean be nothing but conciliatory and concerned towards Sam. There were momentary sidelines here and there (getting a room, Castiel), but his primary role was to be care-giver and good brother to Sam. When a character is reduced to pretty much serving one role, to me that's not well-rounded.

I think it makes me think of the comments I've read about how the second half showed Dean 'finally' being a caring big brother. I don't know why he wasn't considered a caring big brother in S6, when he stopped at nothing including death to save Sam's soul, or S7, when he tried to be Sam's stone one and saved him from dying a second time. The difference to me is that Dean had his own issues/baggage/ storylines (such as they were) at play as well. The second half eliminated all that baggage, so he was pretty much able to fill his role as big brother without much distraction. Again, one role doesn't make a character well-rounded to me.

Again, yes, Dean had his moments of being creative, strategizing, empathetic, etc--those things are to me fairly consistent character traits of Dean's. Maybe the difference is that when you think of well-rounded, you're thinking of Dean showing different character traits. To me, being well-rounded more encompasses his ability to serve his own storyline as well as others, and this season he did much more of the latter than the former, in my opinion.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-06-24 07:40
Just Saying
Quote:
At that point, he was pretty well dedicated to protecting Sam and helping Sam and trying to make things right with Sam. That's why the little speech Dean gave to help Sam with his confession seemed so out of place (and so clearly there to be the catalyst for the big dramatic moment of the finale)--becaus e since Torn and Frayed we'd seen Dean be nothing but conciliatory and concerned towards Sam. There were momentary sidelines here and there (getting a room, Castiel), but his primary role was to be care-giver and good brother to Sam. When a character is reduced to pretty much serving one role, to me that's not well-rounded.
That conversation did seem out of place to me too. I took it as Dean's attempt at being funny and making light of the situation, but as you say it was obvious when the end scene came, why the writers had Dean say it. I'm hoping that S9 doesn't rehash the same old for both Dean and Sam. As much as I don't want Dean to EVER have a thermometer within 100 miles of him ever ever ever ever EVER again, (or bring Sam food on a tray, (oh man that was bad!!! (suspension of disbelief totally destroyed) the Dean I know would have brought it in a packet....even if they DO have a kitchen!!!). However, I also don't want Sam to be dependent on Dean's approval or help all the time. I think there is a wealth of material out there the writers could draw on without loosing the feel of the brothers or their delicious 'co dependence' or whatever it is that they have for each other.
just saying
# just saying 2013-06-24 09:24
Agreed. We've seen Dean use awkward humor to address his issues before, but that really wasn't a joke. It was the same list he ran down while under spectre influence, in a semi-joking voice. There wasn't much effort put into that, but it was there to serve a specific purpose--to make Sam feel bad enough that he was basically suicidal for the final scene. Anvillicious. Worse, it undercut the idea that Sam was eaten up by guilt at how he'd let Dean down, considering he had to be reminded of those times before he could confess them. This is another occasion to me where the writing let Sam down--it would have served him better if he'd shown more signs of feeling that guilt or at least acknowledged Dean had reason to be hurt in the 22 episodes prior before having Sam tell us that he was eaten up by guilt.

Maybe that's where the care-taking went over the line for some. Dean has always been caring. He's always talked about what Sam eats or if he's sleeping. Thermometers and meals on trays doesn't really seem like Dean. I liked the idea of nesting Dean (Dean with a room with weapons on the wall and cooking burgers seemed in character to me), but the PTB took it a little too far.

Agreed again. I don't think anyone wants Sam to be so dependent on Dean's approval that he's suddenly suicidal without out, any more than anyone wants Dean to be dependent on Sam's that he becomes two steps from a domestic servant to accommodate them. Exactly--show doesn't have to lose Dean and Sam's closeness in order to explore new materials or sides of them.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-06-24 11:34
Just saying
Quote:
Dean has always been caring. He's always talked about what Sam eats or if he's sleeping.
The writers got this caring trait in Dean perfect S1 through 6. Not too OTT. His concern manifested through Dean's paternal-like observations of Sam. Sometimes when the caring is 'shown' and not spoken, it comes across more powerfully, especially as Dean is a man of few words. The directors used to use close ups, and back glances of the brothers' faces to suggest emotion, IMO they don't do this so effectively anymore.

Quote:
It was the same list he ran down while under spectre influence, in a semi-joking voice. There wasn't much effort put into that, but it was there to serve a specific purpose--to make Sam feel bad enough that he was basically suicidal for the final scene. Anvillicious. Worse, it undercut the idea that Sam was eaten up by guilt at how he'd let Dean down, considering he had to be reminded of those times before he could confess them. This is another occasion to me where the writing let Sam down--it would have served him better if he'd shown more signs of feeling that guilt or at least acknowledged Dean had reason to be hurt in the 22 episodes prior before having Sam tell us that he was eaten up by guilt.
True, trudging up all Sam's faults as though Sam needs reminding of them in order to feel guilty, diminishes the legitimacy of both Dean's and Sam's feelings (to which they both untitled IMO). It would be naive to expect the brothers to suffer all they have been through without some fallout. I suppose both have valid gripes for past offences, and being so far down the line, it is impossible to keep a fair score (not that anyone is keeping tally). Sometimes I feel the writers execute a line for the scene to work and I suppose the characters suffer for it.
hermit
# hermit 2013-06-24 11:49
Quote:
Just saying
Quote:
Dean has always been caring. He's always talked about what Sam eats or if he's sleeping.
The writers got this caring trait in Dean perfect S1 through 6. Not too OTT. His concern manifested through Dean's paternal-like observations of Sam. Sometimes when the caring is 'shown' and not spoken, it comes across more powerfully, especially as Dean is a man of few words. The directors used to use close ups, and back glances of the brothers' faces to suggest emotion, IMO they don't do this so effectively anymore.

Quote:
It was the same list he ran down while under spectre influence, in a semi-joking voice. There wasn't much effort put into that, but it was there to serve a specific purpose--to make Sam feel bad enough that he was basically suicidal for the final scene. Anvillicious. Worse, it undercut the idea that Sam was eaten up by guilt at how he'd let Dean down, considering he had to be reminded of those times before he could confess them. This is another occasion to me where the writing let Sam down--it would have served him better if he'd shown more signs of feeling that guilt or at least acknowledged Dean had reason to be hurt in the 22 episodes prior before having Sam tell us that he was eaten up by guilt.
True, trudging up all Sam's faults as though Sam needs reminding of them in order to feel guilty, diminishes the legitimacy of both Dean's and Sam's feelings (to which they both untitled IMO). It would be naive to expect the brothers to suffer all they have been through without some fallout. I suppose both have valid gripes for past offences, and being so far down the line, it is impossible to keep a fair score (not that anyone is keeping tally). Sometimes I feel the writers execute a line for the scene to work and I suppose the characters suffer for it.
When has Sam ever felt guilty of anything? He seemed to feel he served his time in the cage and then afterwards he blamed Dean for Martin's death. Sam has never felt guilty because he places all the blame on Dean.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-06-24 12:03
Actually quite alot but thats beside the point .I do not actually recall Sam verbally stating Martin was Dean's fault but if you did then I suppose it must be true. Certainly after going through what he went through in the cage there was a need to feel his sins and wrongs were cleaned away. But then wouldnt you I mean 180 yrs of torture should be enough in anybody's book.
Neither did he lay blame at Dean's door in Sacrifice but his own guilty and belief he had let Dean down and Sam is not one that tends to play the blame game or hold grudges . But again if you feel he does then thats your right .
just saying
# just saying 2013-06-24 14:08
kaz1

It does feel to me that the writing didn't used to be quite this much of a sledgehammer in the earlier seasons. Things could be conveyed nonverbally, or in metaphor, without painstakingly spelling things out for the audience. Not to say that show never does subtle anymore, but it does seem rarer, to the point that when subtle does happen you almost wonder if it's an accident. I think Dean has always been caring throughout the series, and it was conveyed in a variety of ways, both verbal and nonverbal. The second half show seemed to be so concerned we wouldn't get the message that we had to have thermometers and meals on trays in order to say, "SEE? LOOK HOW DEAN IS TAKING CARE OF SAM!" Got it, show. Sure did.

Agreed that sometimes it seems that show decides what the action/scene they want will be and then writes backwards from there. The finale is an example of that to me--start with a big, emotional scene for Sam (which is a good thing, by the way). What can he be emotional about? His guilt about Dean (never mind that we haven't let Sam appear sorry about his part in what went wrong with his relationship with Dean this year, better late than never). Do we just have Sam spontaneously reveal his guilt? No, we need something to trigger it. We'll have Dean bring up all the things he needs to feel guilty for (plus, that way it'll look more balanced because Dean's acted badly too. Never mind it doesn't fit with his behavior since Torn and Frayed). Perfect!

Except, you know, not. It undercut Sam's true feelings, it bent Dean OOC based on what we'd seen the last several episodes, and ended up feeling a bit manipulative to me. The writing should serve the characters, not the other way around.
love2boys
# love2boys 2013-06-25 11:21
Throughout S8 Dean displayed a large variety of characteristics appropriate for the situations he found himself in. I understand that many people did not care to see Dean display some of these (previously established) characteristics . But just because people don't want to see Dean do something doesn't make him less well-rounded as a character over the season.

Respectfully submitted, l2b
eilf
# eilf 2013-06-25 11:55
Nicely put L2B. For me too how the characters are written is as, or more, important than what they do each week.
just saying
# just saying 2013-06-25 13:40
I don't think it's a matter of not caring that Dean is showing previously displayed characteristics . On the contrary, it's always praiseworthy when show keeps personality and character consistent, instead of bending them to fit the situation.

Again, to me there is a definitely separation between being well-rounded as a character in terms of personality and well-rounded in terms of how a character is used in a story. In terms of the former, I might agree that Dean was represented as a three-dimension al character for most of the season in terms of reactions, etc. By the latter set of criteria, I don't think show was as successful, because while Dean seemed to display some complexity in terms of role in the first half, by the second half Dean pretty much had one role to play, which to me is not well-rounded. To me, it's not a matter of personality traits--it's a matter of story and what roles a character is given within the story.

So to me it feels like we're debating apples and oranges. Your mileage may, of course, vary.
hermit
# hermit 2013-06-24 11:47
Sadly, it's not Destiny that chooses Sam, but Sam's own arrogance and pride. Destiny would choose Dean if Sam wasn't so self-important that he felt that he's the only one that can accomplish every great deed and the writers seem to feel that arrogant and selfish Sam is heroic.

Dean's caretaker duties have been just that since season 1 and it would be lovely if for once, Dean was allowed to carry the mytharc, to have something more to do than wipe Sam's nose and take care of him. It would also be great if for once Sam didn't feel he was the only one capable of doing everything and allowed Dean to become more challenged than changing Sam's diaper because Sam feels that unless he's the big hero, he's not going to play. Sam, if anything, has become more infantile and the show is letting him.

I'd like to see Dean take up the hero mantle for once, and for Sam to actually learn to care about Dean and support Dean, for once, without turning everything to all about himself.

It's a shame that this show can't seem to treat two leads as equals, because for some insane reason, Sam is the only one that can do everything.

Let Sam mature by showing for once how much he cares for Dean not by trying to overshow Dean, but by being a true brother, by supporting Dean. We've seen this from Dean for years, I've yet to see a season that's about Dean without Sam having something equal, or forcing Dean into the servant role while Sam, once again, is all about himself.

Let Sam grow up and out of his juvenile self-centeredne ss by having a season where Dean plays the hero and Sam has to support Dean. It sure would be a change, for once.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-06-24 12:14
Now you're talking my language. I have heard so much about the great scenes from the series. That scene in The Pilot where 6 month old Sam used his mind to force Mary out of the room and begged Azazel to feed him his blood was unique in television history from what I've heard. Although the episode where Cas took Sam back in time and Sam convinced Mary to sell him out to Azazel was pretty magnificent as well according to reports. I've been told when Sam's ghost appeared to Dean after he died at Cold Oak and pleaded with Dean to sell his soul because the world couldn't survive without Sam was masterful. I admit having Sam repeat Let me say yes to Lucifer in every single episode in season five was a bit much did apparently bother some people. Nag, nag nag is how twitter describes it.! The Internet has raved about the scene showing Sam begging Cas to take his body but leave his soul in the Cage, just to hurt Dean. And of course the numerous discussions on Sam grabbing the demon killing knife from Dean's hand so that Dean was incapable of killing the Hell Hound, just so Dean didn't get to be a hero made it sound incredible.

Now, I do have to admit, I have watched every episode of Supernatural from seasons 1-8, but apparently my bladder has failed me because I actually missed most of these scenes. Needing constant potty breaks is annoying. Even more annoying is the fact that my DVR cut out during every one of them. I hoped that I would be able to see this on my DVD's but they were left off of my set. I almost called and reported them as defective, but other people indicated that those scenes got cut for time.

I do envy you and those others who got to watch all those magnificent moments. I'm sure if I had just managed to catch them I would have a whole new appreciation for Supernatural. Instead I am left with my incomplete view where I see Sam as having been a pawn of fate since before he was born. Oh well, obviously I never got the chance to have the real Supernatural experience.
st50
# st50 2013-06-24 12:39
Oh percy, you made my day.
I honestly snorted. Constant potty breaks indeed.
:D
love2boys unlogged
# love2boys unlogged 2013-06-24 13:07
Percy! This is your best post. Ever. Let the snorting ensue! :lol:
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-06-24 17:35
You should get that potty issue checked out Percy. :-)
Alanie
# Alanie 2013-07-13 03:47
One word : thanks !
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-06-24 14:03
Sorry if this has been discussed elsewhere, but if those weren't the real angel trials, and that the ingredients Metatron told Cas to get was to make the angels fall.. then what does the 'real' angel tablet say have to say.

Metatron already knows what the angel tablet says, so surely the first person that Metatron will go for will be Kevin. Poor Kevin, he can't catch a break.
just saying
# just saying 2013-06-24 14:13
I wonder if there will be more from the 'real' angel tablet, or if show is going to leave the idea of angel trials well alone. Perhaps what needs to be gleaned from the tablet at this point is how to get the angels back into heaven, as I can't imagine it's going to be good for humanity to have angry banished angels walking around, power or no power.

I further wonder if the nephilim idea was introduced as a bit of foreshadowing for this season. After all, you've got all these earth-bound angels with nothing much to do :-*

Sorry, Kevin, but as much as Dean's speeches aren't fun to hear, on this show they're true: no one gets out. You're the prophet, and I'm guessing that the task of deciphering the angel tablets is going to be yours. Of course, he might be a hard sell. I wouldn't blame Kevin if he's a bit miffed at Sam and Dean for not completing the mission he's pretty much lost his old life for and nearly killed himself to achieve.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-06-24 14:28
just saying

Quote:
I further wonder if the nephilim idea was introduced as a bit of foreshadowing for this season. After all, you've got all these earth-bound angels with nothing much to do
dang! you good at this. I had a chuckle at the nephilim idea. It's in tune with what I was thinking all those moons ago, that if Dean and the wozzname angel (that he shagged in the Impala) had sprogged, wouldn't she/he qualify as a nephilim? But I suppose she got roasted along with that idea anyway. But you're right, all those angels on earth... well I suppose you can't even say "heaven help us all" anymore!

If they are going to put the angel trials to bed (so to speak), then I hope we have closure for poor old Kevin. I don't think they're over though, with Metatron on the loose, and the angel trials as a threat, he is surely going to have to deal with Kevin one way or the other
Thisoldbag
# Thisoldbag 2013-06-24 14:34
I'd just like to thank everyone on this site, from writers to commenters! Seriously you will make the next couple of months fly by!

Being a Sam POVer, I always enjoy trying to see things the way others do. I see thru Sam's eyes so it is nice to try to view things thru Dean's. Where I see insult to Sam others see the insults to Dean. This is also why I am of the opinion that show runners and writers should just write their own story and ignore us. It won't matter what they do, someone or some group will not like it.

As for me, I am often frustrated or annoyed at either one or both of our "boys". But that is the story, and I enjoy the story and will hopefully continue to enjoy the story. It's not about whether I see something that makes me mad at Dean or Sam, it's about where and how the story takes me. It would be quite dull if they were 2 well adjusted brothers carrying-on this monster hunting tradition.

But, as I said, thank you letting me see you view of thing. I will never take offense (unless you insult me directly) at you opinion, desires or views.
eilf
# eilf 2013-06-24 20:05
Quote:
This is also why I am of the opinion that show runners and writers should just write their own story and ignore us. It won't matter what they do, someone or some group will not like it.
Hi TOB, you have given me the perfect opportunity to post this great quote from Julie Plec who is the showrunner for the Vampire Diaries and who knows a thing or two about demanding (and, to be honest, somewhat overly-entitled fans):

Quote:
@julieplec: “It's not good going against the fans wish for Kol to live. It could give you a bad reputation as a writer.”

Let me elaborate: Storytelling is not a democracy and it never will be. I love and admire the passion of the Kol fan base, but no petition, or trending topic, or ongoing twitter assault on my mentions is going to make us do something we don't believe is right or necessary for the show right now. Some of you have gotten a bit meanly personal. Others have shown nothing but grace. And your enthusiasm means the world to all of us. But if you want a choose-your-own adventure, go to the library. Otherwise, find it in your hearts to trust that we love the story we're telling and are going to keep giving 1000% of our creative souls to it --- even when it makes a few people unhappy. Maybe one day you'll see Kol again when the story is right. Maybe not. I hope you'll keep watching anyway. With love, respect, and the desire for a cleaner and kinder Timeline,
I agree with this I have to say. I get annoyed with the storylines and the showrunner(s) will never do exactly what I want. But I would way rather they had a vision they stuck to then trying to work out what makes the noisiest section of the fandom happy and going with that.
paloma
# paloma 2013-06-24 21:53
Thanks Alice for your comment.
I only want one thing for Dean, although ill people are acumulating, I don't want more of him babysitting. Everything else I'm happy.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-06-26 04:21
Just a thought anyone, if all the angels have been cast down to earth... what of Lucifer? does this also have an affect on him and Michael?
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-06-26 04:39
I ask because when Lucifer was cast out, he still retained his powers. So it isn't certain that the angels will be devoid of their powers. Can you imagine Lucifer and the angels with all their powers in tact loose on the earth. The ultimate showdown
eilf
# eilf 2013-06-26 11:01
I think there might be a loophole. Spells tend to be really specific. If the spell was worded to 'throw all the angels out of heaven' then it might not apply to any angel who wasn't in heaven at the time of the spell. Thus it wouldn't apply to Lucifer and Michael and maybe not to any angel on earth.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-06-26 12:45
I admit I never want to see or hear about Michael (the Archangel, Michael from Something Wicked is fine) and Lucifer again, unless they suddenly decide to talk about Sam's time in the cage, which I think will happen right after they show us what Sam was like when Dean was in Purgatory and let us know what Ben and Lisa are up to, in other words, never. I was Michaeled and Lucifered out by the end of season five. I would like the boys to run into a fallen angel who tells them that Adam made it out of the Cage, just to clear up loose ends, but that isn't necessary for me. It would just get a true innocent out of Hell.

Frankly Jake Abel's career is going well and Mark Pelligrino is starring on our lead in, The Tomorrow People, and I can't see them recasting either part, so I think we will not see Michael and Lucifer again.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-06-26 13:24
Percy
Agreed, but then the PTB would need to close the Lucifer/Michael loophole. Michael is still an angel, just trapped in hell, so I cannot see why he shouldn't 'fall' to earth with the other angels too?

It occurs to me, with all those angels on earth with nothing to do, there are going to be an awful lot of nephillims around!!!

I read something interesting on another site about Sam not being able to cure any demon in the future because if he does then the gates of hell will close and he'll die.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-06-26 13:47
I think that one is up in the air. To close the Gates of Hell, Sam had to complete the task then read the incantation. His arm didn't light up until he read the incantation with the Hell Hound and I believe that Bobby went to heaven and then Sam had to read the incantation for that task as well. Certainly the canon isn't clear on the issue and since I felt like they messed with canon all season to begin with, it could mean that Sam can't heal any more demons. But Dean told him one of the reasons for him to stop was because they had more weapons in their arsenal including the fact that they could heal demons. So the writers can go either way at this point I think.
st50
# st50 2013-06-26 10:51
Here's a thought we had this morning....
Death is going to be decidedly unimpressed with the whole fallen angels thing, so he is going to go get some of the angels who've "moved on to another plane", such as Gabriel and Balthazar, and bring them back.
They still have all their powers!
Set them on Metatron!
;-)
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-06-26 12:39
I loved Gabriel and Balthazar, so I would love to bring them back. I don't know if death cares if the angels fall or not. He does care about "what's dead should stay dead", but I would love the upset of the balance to bring back Gabe and Balthazar. If they can't do that, I want Gabriel to have been inhabiting the body of a real Trickster, who survived the angel blade because he wasn't an angel. I really was happier with the Trickster over another angel.