Wednesday, 17 October 2012 22:27 | Written by 
WARNING!!! If you haven't seen "Heartache," then read no further! There will be spoilers and discussion and talk about next week's episode preview and CRAZY theories bandied about! If you don't want to read any of that, look away now! But if you do, then saddle up because we're going for a ride!
EXTRA SPECIAL WARNING!!!! In my article tonight, I'm going to raise some points that will undoubtedly be seen as contentious to some of you. I will also present theories about why these things are happening, but I want to be perfectly clear about a few things that under no circumstances are to happen in the comments section.
1. There will be NO ATTACKING myself or other commenters for presenting our opinions. They are just that: our opinions. All points of view are welcome as long as they are stated and presented in a manner that is mature and respectful.
2. No Sam vs. Dean nonsense. Talking about a character's actions doesn't automatically equate to bashing them. Of course you're allowed to have your favorite, but that doesn't mean you get to attack the other character or attack other commenters for liking the other character.
3. The other admins and myself WILL EDIT any comments we deem out of line for any reason. Keep that in mind when you post your comments. If something you read makes you angry, take a few minutes before replying to calm down.
Okay, with that aside, let's get some bullet points out of the way before we hit the really meaty matters.
- Once again, Jensen Ackles did a great job directing. I especially liked the overhead shot of the runner on the jogging path in the opening. And I think it's a testament to Jensen's directing skills and the confidence the crew and writers and producers, etc., have in him that they didn't write him out of this episode at all. It was a very Dean-heavy episode still, so not only did he have to direct, he had to act, too. Well done!
- And he had to direct his father, too! Ha! That's great. Nice to see Mr. Ackles make an appearance.
- Inyo the Mayan had hundreds of years to come up with aliases, and Brick Holmes was the best he could do????
- The guy chanting the spell and then gouging his own eye out was really creepy!
- Is it me or did Jensen and Jared both look very wll-tanned in this episode? Summer break will do that for you, I guess!
What Is Going On With Sam and Dean?
I can understand that Dean's having lots of issues readjusting to society again, that it makes him kind of snippy and harsh and really bad at sugarcoating anything. He's not very empathetic at all right now. He's enthusiastic about hunting, though, and he's trying so hard to make Sam feel the same enthusiasm. But, Dean, honey, trying to force your brother into doing anything NEVER works out for you two. The more you push, the more he's gonna push back. And, Sam, sweetie, your brother has boatloads of abandonment issues. Telling him you're gonna leave all the time just isn't the way to go about this. If you want it, of course you deserve a normal life. But he hears normal life and thinks about the last time you left, and that ended with the two of you not talking for years and him breaking in to your apartment because he thought it was the only way you'd listen to him. You see where I'm going with this? Try a different tactic of persuasion!
I really, really wanted to get some clarity tonight with what's going on in Sam's head right now. Because he definitely doesn't seem like himself. He seems disconnected, distracted almost. Not on the case but with his interactions with Dean. He feels off, like he's half there or like he's only half trying. And there has to be a reason for that because there's no way a 100% fully cognizant Sam Winchester acts like this. Some of the things he said tonight were big clues for me. "I had something I've never had before: a normal life." (Or something like that, I didn't take notes, so forgive me if I get these a little wrong.) What does Sam consider his time at Stanford? Does Brady being around him negate that time in his head, make it abnormal again? And I'm sorry, but there's no way in hell Sam never had a birthday cake at some point in his life. If Jess didn't have one for him, you can bet that Dean figured out a way to make it happen for Sam when they were growing up. You just know Dean would do something. It may not have been a great cake, but he would have gotten a cake.
Why are they both acting this way? Never fear, I have Theories!!!!! (yes, with a capital "T"!)
Theory 1: Sam's Had A Mental Breakdown
Castiel fixed Sam last season, taking on Sam's Lucifer problem and transferring it to himself. But what if that protection ended when Castiel popped into Purgatory? What if it only worked when Castiel was on Earth, too? Picture the scene in the s7 finale when Sam is alone and turning around, looking terrified. Now imagine he's terrified and looking around not because Dean is gone but because he sees hellfire all around him and hears Lucifer taunting him. What if Sam's had an entire year of trying to deal with Hallucifer again? Maybe he just doesn't have the energy to deal with Dean coming back right now.
Or maybe the Castiel fix held and Sam's mind just couldn't handle the fact that everyone was gone, Dean was gone, he was alone again, had lost his brother, the most important person in his life. So his brain just shut down. Instead of looking for his brother, Sam created a "normal life" for himself. Maybe Amelia, Riot the dog, everything is a figment of Sam's imagination. And Sam has lots of issues, so his girlfriend in this fiction isn't all candy and roses all the time. Maybe they aren't real. And if he's hallucinating them, perhaps the reason he's not acting like his usual self around Dean is because he hallucinated Dean's return before and it wasn't true. He doesn't want to get emotionally attached to this Dean because he thinks it's not the REAL Dean. Because I think we're seeing a Sam that, for whatever reason, doesn't want to or can't get emotionally attached to his brother right now. He wants to keep him at arm's length.
Theory 2: The Brothers Have Been Reset
If you've ever read Stephen King's "The Dark Tower" series, this theory will be familiar to you. Sam and Dean stopped the apocalpyse, but they didn't do it how they were supposed to. To quote Bookdal, "they were supposed to save the world, but they weren't supposed to save themselves." So the final battle, the final war, never happened. Which is good, except what if it HAS to happen? So Sam and Dean get reset to where they were when we met them in the Pilot. Sam certainly seems like Stanford Sam; wants a normal life, applying for colleges, doesn't want to hunt. And Dean seems a lot like Pilot Dean, loving the hunt, the good soldier ready to track down monsters and kill them. They don't know how to relate to each other because they've been separated for a long time. They want different things out of life. So they're similar to where they started, but with some differences, just enough to make the next try at the great Heaven vs. Hell battle more likely.
Theory 3: Michael and Lucifer Are Coming Back
This ties in with theory 2 a bit, because if Sam and Dean have been reset, then it's going to be all about getting both of them to say yes to Michael and Lucifer again. I think these new angels that will be popping up later in the season are going to bust Michael out of the box. And I think Crowley has been running the long con and is going to bust Lucifer out, too. What if that tablet he so desperately wants has instructions on how to do that? There has to be more to closing the gates of Hell forever than just a spell on a tablet, so what if the gates can only be closed if the box is open?
And with Dean acting the way he is now, all morally ambiguous, I think they're setting him up to go dark this season. Sam leaving would give him pretty much no reason not to say yes to Michael when he comes back. Maybe this season or next season will be all about keeping Dean from saying yes to Michael, like it was for Sam and Lucifer. Maybe they all have to play their roles, like Gabriel said, and Dean and Sam both say yes and fight it out as Lucifer and Michael. Cass' original job was to get Dean to say yes to Michael, so maybe he has to play his role, too.
Okay, it's getting late, and I think that's enough theorizing for one night. What do you think? Do any of these sound plausible to you? For the record, I'm leaning toward Sam having a mental breakdown and creating Amelia and his perfect normal life, that he's hallucinated Dean coming back before, and he's acting so distant right now because he's not convinced Dean is real. Again, please be respectful in the comments! It's more fun that way!
For all the latest Supernatural info and article links, follow The Winchester Family Business on Twitter at @WinFamBusiness
| < Prev | Next > |
|---|
Comments
Contrast that with Dean, who has obviously been affected by his experiences differently. He's rediscovered himself as a hunter, but he is realizing that Sam wants something different. I think two things need to happen in terms of character growth this season, or at least before the end of the series: 1) Dean needs to love Sam enought to let him go, and 2) Dean needs to realize, and Sam needs to get through to him, that giving up hunting does not mean turning his back on Dean.
I was extremely impressed with this episode. I give it a 10 out of 10. I think it was superbly balanced, well-paced, original, well-written and directed, full of plot twists, and emotionally grounded. I feel like Carver is slowly bringing the boys full-circle, and that is a beautiful thing to watch.
I agree I don't think we were meant to believe that Sam had never had a birthday cake before, but it was just a contrast between his normal life and what was presented.
Interesting episode. I'm sure I am not the only one who had a very different expectation due to the preview clip. Goes to show one really shouldn't make assumptions based on a 3- to 40 second clip. You know what they say about assuming. I have a wait and see attitude. They can't show us everything in 3 episodes.
I do remember reading about a reset during the break around comic con. My fear is I don't want them to clear the foundation of the show like it never happen.
But I think for whatever reason they started at a certain point of the boys life to start over.
The episode was boring to me. I found myself flipping the station during the commercial breaks and then missing some parts when I flipped back.
I just don't recognize this show anymore. I felt no chemistry between the brothers. They aren't connected at all, IMO. They feel, to me, even more disconnected this year than last year. Sam is not familiar to me at all. I'm not sure what is going on w/him, but he's been "off" since the premiere. If I had any faith in the writers, I would assume this was part of an arc for Sam, but I am not that faithful. I don't know what's up w/Sam, and I'm not sure if I'll get a satisfactory answer.
In any event, this story of Sam hating hunting and wanting out of the life is played out - mostly because we've been treated to this same story for the past three years w/Dean.
Now that Dean is finally on board w/hunting and happy w/his life, Sam isn't?!?!?! Why? What is the purpose of that conflict? Can't the writers start a season w/the boys being on the same freaking page anymore? IMO, this show does not work unless the boys enjoy hunting and each other's company. If one brother is miserable w/the other, then it is not fun to watch to me. I am not entertained by Sam's miserable sad sack face! Sam looks like he would rather be anywhere else than w/his brother., and if this were "real" life, that would be fine w/me, but this is a tv show that has been based on the deep, binding love btw two brothers . . . . I'm just not feeling the love nowadays. The last time I felt the love was HCW, and that was a long time ago. Sam's active hatred or distaste for hunting is throwing off the vibe of the show.
I feel as miserable as Sam and just wish Dean would drop Sam off at Stanford and go about his business. Sam is near 30-years old. If he doesn't want to hunt, then don't hunt. I felt the same way about Dean and his similar soul searching during S5, S6, and S7. There is no reason the boys have to stay together or hunt together. They're adults and can make their own decisions. This is why I wish the writers would leave the "I hate hunting" story at the door. It, IMO, does not play out well and does the character w/the arc no favors!
There are better ways to introduce conflict than this tired "I don't want to hunt" plot that is used up and played out! Sam's attitude and the crappy state of the brothers' relationship is ruining the show for me. It feels very generic. I'm not getting a "Supernatural" feel from the show anymore.
And I must address the FB. I was led to believe this episode was going to explore Sam's time w/Amelia, and all we got was that one lousy FB, which really did nothing to shed any light on Sam's "year off" or what was so great about Amelia. I hated the FB as it didn't advance the plot in any way, shape, or form. I also hated the weird lighting and bad dialogue.
And what about Jessica? Didn't Sam have normal w/Jessica? Why are the writers acting as if Amelia is Sam's first true love and his first shot at "normal?" Sam had "normal" w/Jessica for 2 1/2 years, and he pretty much lived normally while in college for 3 1/2 years.
As far as your theories are concerned, I believe JC just reset the characters, which really doesn't recognize their experiences but I believe that's what he's done. I'm very disappointed so far w/the show, but not surprised.
It's interesting how our perspectives differ. Regarding Sam, for the first time in a season, I find myself saying, "there's the Sam I know." He's smart, on the ball, has hope for the future, and knows what he wants out of life. I don't sense that he is miserable at all. Sam doesn't like hunting - but I sense the love and loyalty he has for his brother both in his actions (choosing to stay with Dean and finish this one last mission) and in every facial expression/engaging interaction they have. Sam not liking hunting does not equal Sam not wanting to be with his brother (that's something Dean needs to understand, too). Obviously Sam wouldn't still be around if he didn't care or want to complete the mission. I feel like the brother's relationship -albeit frought with a healthy tension - is in a great place. It's a jumping off point for a lot of reflection, growth, and maturity.
Regarding Jessica - that was 7 years ago. And it wasn't 'normal' because the entire thing was manipulated by demons. Even Sam meeting Jessica was initiated by Brady, who was possessed at the time. I don't think they're portraying Amelia as Sam's first love, but it certainly makes sense that he views it as his first shot at normal - no demonic influence manipulating things behind the scenes. And though he was at college for several years, Dean and John were still out there, and Dean had contact with Sam at Stanford in some fashion at least once before the Pilot. This time was different, as everyone that was ever really close to Sam was either dead or gone. I am looking forward to Sam's story being more fleshed out.
I don't think Jeremy Carver would just 'reset' the characters and completely ignore 4 seasons of character development and plot. It doesn't make sense, and it would be a bad move in a series that plays heavily to canon. I think the progression of the characters to this point makes sense in light of all they've been through, and will make more sense when we see more of their stories and how Sam and Dean have grown over their summer apart.
Re: Amelia and normal. If he did have this great relationship, it shows show how jaded I am about how things go on this show that I fear there might be some demonic/angelic interference. Hasn't been ruled out yet!
Not crazy about the reset theory unless it can be explained in ways that make sense.
I wish I had read this before I posted my comment. You definitely stated what I was trying to say in a much better way. I honestly don't see why more people don't see it like that though. I mean, it's a TV show yes, but that doesn't mean it can't have very real, human aspects to it. That's part of the reason why the characters on Supernatural have such great relationships in the first place
Jensen did a great job of directing. Were you referring to that shot with the jogger in the woods, the lights streaming through the trees? Beautiful.
My favorite theory is - Sam's had a breakdown. At least it is the one I'm hoping for. It would explain so much and would nicely tie together some of the loose threads from last season. It never occurred to me that he might be hallucinating Amelia. I like that idea. Maybe he was on the verge of a breakdown and met a real person and worked her into the delusion? BTW I liked her much better in this flashback, hallucination or not.
Thanks again, I really look forward to these speculative articles!
I was referring to the shot when the camera panned over the jogger, like it was on a crane. But the light streaming shots were pretty amazing, too! Made me want to do a visual review of the episode like I used to do.
But really less than 2 minutes of flashback and then nothing for two weeks (because next week is something else entirely)? And why put it right at the end?
I thought the timing of the flashback at the very end of the episode was very poignant and well-placed in an artistic sense. If you recall, the last episode ended with the Purgatory flashback to Cas. Putting it as the final scene like that puts it at the forefront of the audiences memory, constantly reminding us that where the brothers are now has been heavily influenced by their past experiences that summer, keeping us wondering about those mysteries, etc.
I thought the saturation/glow was another artistic way of demonstrating nostalgia. The darkness of the night and the hunting down of evil contrasts so vividly with Sam's memory of this 'normal' day with his love, and he has totally romanticized it, hence the unnatural 'glow'.
The last episode gave us a plot point to think about in the middle plus a scary coda about Cas. This episode only gave us this, and I am not saying it was bad at all, it was poignant as you say, and sweet, just not enough information (which of course is probably the point).
I can understand it being Sam's memory of a 'perfect moment', I am just a little worried that all the flashbacks are going to be like that. and it doesn't really work for me (but mileage varies, as they say).
However the only times where we have seen colors like that in the show were during the 2 episodes with djinn and the dream episode - totally romantic dreams of what may be instead of what is (or was). So I have faith still that there is more to this.
Especially considering Dean's sweetly embarrassed reaction to his 'perfect picnic' dream in DALDOM
I AM LEANING TO THE SAM IS NOT SURE WHAT'S REAL TRACK. IT IS MIGHTY BRIGHT AND UPLIFTING WITH THE GIRLFRIEND AND THE DOG. HE HAD A DOG WHEN HE RAN AWAY FOR 2 WEEKS WHEN HE WAS A KID ALSO.
THE ONLY PROBLEM I HAVE WITH THAT IS THE WHOLE DESTINY/COINSIDENCE QUESTION. YOU CANT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS, PICK ONE.
IF IT'S DESTINY THEN THAT MEANS SOME PEOPLE ARE DESTINED TO BE MISERABLE. CAN NEVER EVER HEAL. THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A HOT MINUTE. YOU ARE DESTINED TO BE A DRUG ADDICT OR SERIAL KILLER. I HAVE QUESTIONED THIS SINCE 12TH GRADE HIGH SCHOOL SO NO EASY WAY OUT FOR ME.
HAPPY WINCHESTER WEDNESDAY. HOPE I CONTRIBUTE MORE. PEACE
ps-It took me awhile to realize that you were not yelling everything due to your use of CAPS. LOL sorry about that!!
Enjoyed your comment.
See yall around. bye Kaj & Ginger & Gwen & everybody.
HAPPY WINCHESTER WEDNESDAY'S AND HAPPY SEASON 8
No we cant have the story in 40 mins but they have got Sam acting so weird its like watching a question mark without a question. If there is a reason for Sam and I could buy a mental collaspe then there is no shame in that then why make it all a drama why not tell a straight forward story with Sam . The way they are doing it will only end up hurting the character again , you dont read a book in reverse so why do it to Sam?.
As Percy mentioned, this episode should have gone into more detail on what Sam was thinking and feeling during his year away. The 10 second FB shed no light, IMO, on Sam at all. I certainly didn't get the sense that Sam was worried when Amelia disappeared that a monster had taken her or anything! Maybe if the FB had been longer that would have been apparent, and that's also assuming that's what the writers wanted us to feel. I'm not sure.
I do believe Sam's story requires more fleshing out - sooner rather than later but it doesn't look like that's gonna happen. Frankly, I'm sick of the "mystery" with Sam; I just want them to tell a story for him. Just clue the audience in and tell e story in a straightforward manner!
I don't think it is likely Sam had a mental collapse post S7 (mostly because I believe he's already had two mental collapses - one in S6 and one in S7). I think his story IS pretty straightforward. Sam got out, had a good life for awhile, and it changed his perspective on things. If he seems OOC now THAT is why. Because Sam has changed since the end of S7. The reason for his change in attitude is linked to his relationship with Amelia and that dog - whatever he went through with them - and we WILL find out - gave him a clarity he didn't have before.
You might be right in the Amelia / perspective idea . And drama and mystery is all well and good but in this case it wasnt necessary IMO .If it is as straight forward as you claim then there wouldnt be a need for mystery and drama.
You are entitled to view it the way you wish but clearly people are having problems with this .
If all Sam did during his year was live a life with Amelia, then I'm
not sure why we need to show his life. He wasn't doing anything interesting or learning anything new about himself. As I feared, his life with Amelia is completely foreign and out of place on this show. I even speculated that we wouldn't see much of Sam's time with Amelia; however, if that 10 second FB is any indicator of things to come then Sam's story will never be told. We're - or let me say I'm going to need more than that to understand this "new" Sam.
I hope there is more going on with Sam but I fear there isn't. As suspected, he just ditched Dean (and Kevin) and got a dog. That's not very rootworthy or sympathetic. These characters have always been portrayed as heroes. To write one of the main characters in a cold, callous way as just his "nature" is really disheartening.
There is a reason so many had a problem with the spoilers and this current characterization of Sam. There is a reason so many are scrambling for reasons behind Sam's actions and behaviors. He's not being "Sam" right now. I'm still waiting fir Sam to show up on my screen. Dean is there. Sam isn't.
I love Sam just as much as I love Dean! I'm not trying to be hard on his character but he is simply not himself. Either that or he's a brand new Sam, and I can't say I like this "new" Sam. They haven't given a reason for this attitude. The story needs to be fleshed out greatly!
But other than the tease we also get other FB in a correlated storyline on Dean's purgatory scene. It was in line and has connection with one another. With Sam it seemed that they just plucked it up from somewhere with no certain sign to mark the timing. I mean in 8.1 we don't know if Sam left the Vet at that exact time when Dean out of Purgatory OR several weeks or months before. With 8.3 tonight's FB we did not know how long the time has passed from their initial meeting. What happened between that time from the Bad Vet scene to the Glowing scene?
I looked up the photo shot of 8.5 and it shows Sam is in the Vet's apartment, fixing plumbing or something. Does that happen AFTER the Glowing scene or BEFORE the glowing scene. I don't think we will get clear on that because the writers insist on this so called mystery on Sam's story. Is Sam's head is so fucked up (due to Ardeospina's theory of hallucination and mental breakdown) that this somehow uncorrelated time sequence of his FB is representing that?
Hmmm that actually support the theory # 1
So I REALLY think something else has to be up. After this episode, complete mental breakdown seems more likely. I still haven't got a handle on Sam yet, but I wonder about hallucination theory too tonight. Because that picnic lighting did see like "dream" lighting that all shows use. In fact as eilf mentioned above it was used in Dean's dream in DaLDoM. It's often used to make everyone and everything seem perfect. And if Sam had created a new existence in his head that would make sense.
Now what hadn't occurred to me is your idea that, "He doesn't want to get emotionally attached to this Dean because he thinks it's not the REAL Dean. Because I think we're seeing a Sam that, for whatever reason, doesn't want to or can't get emotionally attached to his brother right now. He wants to keep him at arm's length", would explain a lot of his behavior. So I really like that theory. He had wondered before if Dean was truly there in S7, so if he lost it, he might going along for the ride.
One of the problems with it though, is that Amelia and Riot can't completely be in Sam's head because Dean smelled the dog in the Impala.
I appreciate the initial review and all the comments. I am mainly focused on the theory of Sam hallucinating Amelia. Yes, his saying "there was a girl and then there wasn't" mystifies me but then one can't ignore what the previous commenter said (see quote) and the fact that Amelia was shown after Sam walked past that night...she was shown opening her eyes in response and with an expression showing her thinking about something...
That argues against hallucination in my mind.
Slightly off topic, I have a pet peeve. Think of Titanic. The events of the disaster were based on the older Rose's recollection of how the experience unfolded. So I scratch my head at the scenes showing something happening for which she is not a part of whatsoever (the poker game in the beginning, for example).
Now think of Sam's flashback in the first episode. There's a glimpse of Sam disappearing from the door of the exam room and they still show some of the vet walking toward the dog. Shouldn't flashbacks show the character having the flashback with him facing the person or event in question?
But the reason I also focus on this scene is to add to the point that I don't think he hallucinated her because of the fact that she was shown without Sam being there.
Ah, good point. Still, I'm going with some sort of Sam mental break. Maybe he has multiple personality disorder or dissociative disorder or whatever they're calling it these days.
Hey, multiple personality disorder do have merit. It correlates to season 6 finale where Sam was split into 3 in his head. Perhaps he is relieving it in turn? Jumping from different Sam to different Sam for a whole year?
.
Jensen is definitively an excellent director. I find that it is in the hour to give to the Jensen a stronger episode, I find that it is prepared for this.
.
Sorry!!! My English is not good.
We welcome you to keep commenting!
Before he knew when he was hallucinating, but perhaps with Dean gone the lines blurred further. And he believed Dean was there when he wasn't. And he's following what he believes to be hallucinationDean to finish what they started and work through his "demons" before he can settled down to a new life.
There's still a lot of issues with this theory, but I could see it working possibly.
I enjoyed this episode along with the first two.
Jensen did a fantastic job in both directing and acting.
I’m really intrigued by the mystery of both Sam and Deans past year.
I was disappointed in the flashback though. I wanted see more of Sam’s story!
But I guess I’m just going to have to be patient.
I do have to agree that Sam is very standoffish of Dean. Something is definitely off.
I like the theory that Sam had some kind of breakdown and possibly hallucinated Dean being back before.
After just losing Bobby and having Dean and Cas disappear, I feel it would have sent Sam tailspinning into a breakdown.
That with everything he had been through he just couldn’t take or deal with anything anymore. To him he believed Dean was dead and finally at peace.
I do believe Amelia and Riot are real though. Dean did smell the dog in the car and she looked pretty real when Sam was leaving her to go to the cabin. However I do wonder why Sam hasn’t been seen trying to call/text/email her, or Amelia doing the same back to him. Interesting…I will have to ponder this more.
As for the flashback being all bright, I think they are just trying to show how Sam remembers it.
He wants that life so he’s remembering it as being perfect. I also think they are trying to show the contrast of both Sam and Dean’s experiences. Sam was in love and so everything is all sunny and bright, while Dean’s purgatory was dark and scary.
While I've been convinced since Ep. 1 that both brothers are suffering their own types of PTSD, while I was watching the episode, I was cussing this writing duo about why in the world they would regress the two characters back to S1.01. I really felt I was watching another version of Route 666, especially with the wife/mother. I kept thinking, where is Dean's acute PTSD? WTH, Sam, your brother just gets back from a horrible experience, and you tell him to take off on his own? Reading your theories, though, I think I can step back and at least look at it with the question of "What is going on with Sam?"
At the end of the episode, I was left totally bummed and sad. Sam really bummed me out. I guess that's a good thing -- the episode moving a viewer to feel something, right?
Yet, there were parts of it I liked a lot. I thought the MotW was interesting complex. I couldn't figure out what it was, and I thought the actress playing Brandy was very good.
Loved seeing Mr. Ackles Sr. Wasn't it cute how he put those two younger FBI whipper-snappers in their place? Come on, Jensen. Find some more roles Dad can play. I'd welcome him into the SPN family any way we can get him.
Wonderful seeing the brothers do their own research and Dean going with his gut instincts (knowing it was all connected to Brick Holmes).
Dean getting a tranlation app for his phone -- too funny.
Not my favorite writers, but I'm willing to chill and see how this one fits in with the season now. Thanks for giving me that perspective.
Okay, I got the rant out of the way, now for what I liked. I'm very intrigued as to what the Hell is going on with Sam. He doesn't really remind me of season 1 Sam, at least back then he had a fire in his belly about not wanting to hunt with Dean or their father and have a normal life with Jessica. Now, it's like he's moving in slow motion somehow. I like your theory # 1. Yes, it kind of feels like a mental breakdown, or as others have stated, PTSD. Is Amelia real? Yes I think she is, but maybe something happened to her that Sam can't or won't face. The demons use the people that the Winchesters get close too after all. Look at what happened to Lisa & Ben.
Jensen's directing was superb. I too loved the first take on the jogger. And it was nice to see him interacting with his father, that must have been a hoot. I just hope that next year (she says hopefully) he gets an action packed episode to direct, I seem to recall him saying he loves directing action scenes.
So, I will watch the episode again tonight, maybe I'll get more out of it.
I just don't trust the writers to flesh this out so I'm taking it at face value until I'm told differently. If Sam did have a mental breakdown, I wish the writers would just show that. There's no need for the mystery. It's not advancing the story. Sam just seems really odd and strangely OOC. We need a hint, IMO, that something "more" is going on with him. I, personally, haven't seen such a hint yet.
Let me quote you :
Quote:
Thank you!! Thank you!! Finally! 'Cause I've been feeling it ever since episode one. I mean Sam's strongest trait is his emotion. He is never afraid to show what he feels. I don't think even being MATURE makes you loose your personality. And this Sam is not like our Sam of seven years.
The question is if Sam was happy with Dr. Bad Vet, sorry Amelia, why would he left her? We get the impression that the relationship is already over, right? That Sam just went to that Cabin without knowing Dean would be there?
Why would he bailed on that so called glow-enhanced-memory kinda deal if he is so rocking it? Calling it 'Normal' being in love?
I don't think Sam was IN LOVE with the Vet as IN LOVE, IN LOVE. You know In LOVE where He can't bear to be away from her and would rather die than not with her kinda deal?
The problem with the shady leaving in the night scene (I refuse to call it goodbye scene because clearly Sam is not saying goodbye to her, only to the dog. And I will never buy it if anyone tell me that they said their goodbye before the scene, BECAUSE IT'S NOT IN THE SCENE. Because clearly the writer deemed it unimportant or it never happen since they never wrote that scene), is it's too dishonest, and jaded and distorted for a relationship that is being pictured as glowing.
How come we get from the Bad Vet scene to this glowing scene without so much as a bridge in between?
Did Sam went like "Oh you're so snarky and sarcastic and you're bullying me. I think I love you, let's have a picnic together!" We need more story than that.
I Love Dean's purgatory scene because it was told in a cohesive storytelling. Each scene has correlation with the previous scene and it's easy to understood.
I am all about the equality of the brother's storyline. If they want to give Dean and Sam's story the same amount of weight and importance, this is not the way to do it. It is as if they just gloss over it. Just throwing few minutes FB and hoping that we'll be satisfied? NO! BIG NO!
I can't help but comparing Dean/Lisa and Sam/Dr. Bad Vet, sorry Amelia
Lisa knew about Dean's job and through that year she supported Dean. She even let Dean changed their address three times because Dean thought the neighborhood was not safe. They said their goodbyes in the open, no fighting and full of understanding. They called eachother during Dean's hunt. Dean worried about her.
I don't see the same thing happen to Sam here. He had to leave at night, no goodbyes whatsoever, Sam didn't ever looked at her for the last time before he took off. You know like someone who was SUPPOSED to be IN LOVE. He never called her, never seemed to worry about her. He treated her like she's dead. Although we knows that she's alive when Sam left her.
I agree with your number 1 theory although I'd like to put my thoughts on it. What if the Vet was real but their relationship was not as glowing as Sam hallucinate it to be?
Amelia was still there and she's still snarky and bitchy but Sam did have a break down and this relationship with Amelia is just his imagination.
I am thinkin something like this. When they meet her again in the future the Vet will say something like this.
"Yes, I know Sam. I treated a dog that he hit a year ago. Oh, he came over my clinic several more times after that and we sort of chat. Yes, we hooked up once or twice but nothing serious. He went disappear for long times before showing up at my clinic. I could never have a relationship with a guy like that but he's handsome and i am lonely so why not?"
Okay that last line is totally just my dislike of her coming out but still it could happen like that.
Oh. on a brighter note. I love Jensen's work. Clearly the directing is superb. Unlike last episode, I couldn't find any flaw in the fighting scene. It's sharp and no unnecessary moves. Last episode fighting scene was just bad.
Also I love it when the chief police reprimanded Dean. I can see it like Jensen was being chastised by his dad. That was classic.
With Sam, some degree of mental breakdown seems quite plausible, because Flashback Sam was kind of terrified when the dog even disappeared for those few seconds. I thought his line, "I want my time to matter" was kind of weird too, considering that it was him who kept telling Dean in the past season that what they do is important. If last week's quick reverse exorcism and the first episode's "there was a girl and then there wasn't" is any implication, something IS going on with Sam. I also don't have any hate for him wanting to give the life up, contemplating on a series end (a happy one) almost always brings me to the same point. I think what Sam means by "never having a normal life" is probably that in Stanford, as they found out later, his life really wasn't all that normal. And this is also the first time he's found a normal life without actually looking for it (as he had when he ran off to school)
Oddly enough, I kind of like the direction S8 is taking so far, and I'm enjoying the flashbacks being short and teaser-y.
The creepy muttering guy was, well, creepy, and I liked the VFX during the heart eating scene. Baby in front of the mansion was such a good shot, and of course the jogger scene- very nice.
Better episode than many in S7, anyway.
Jensen did a good job with the direction, and I LOVE their summer tan look, but it wasn't my favourite episode. I wanted a much deeper look into Sams issues....
My problem with S8 so far, is that, either way. Sam is going to have to change his mind. The Show can't continue (at least not for me) without both brothers in it together. I can't see Dean driving to Wherever U. to pick up Sam for each hunt, and I can't see Sam ditching the books for extended periods every time there's a case. He may not like it, but Sam is going to have to commit himself to the hunt again. Therefore, at some point, we've got to see Sam realizing "I thought I wanted this, but it turns out I don't"....... Been there, done that, writers! I'm tired of it!
3 eps in, and Season 8 isn't working for me. And 8.04 seems like a throw away ep. - not moving the main characters toward resolution. Not helpful to get me engaged.
Perhaps st50 the only way for Sam to realize that he needs to commit to the hunt with Dean again is when Dean's live is in jeopardy, like Really Really in danger. Then, Sam will think that if he bailed and let Dean go hunt alone (even after the tablet business is over) he will leave his brother's back unprotected. Thus, he let his brother died because he cant be there. Can he live with that in his conscience?
From what I am seeing in this episode Sam is acting very selfish and childish. Not mature at all. His lines only filled with "I want, I had, I never had before, I , I , and I" There's no we in his vocabulary.
He even so far suggesting Dean to hunt alone,
Sam: Maybe you don't need me. Maybe you're at your best hacking and slicing your way through all the world's crap ALONE ..."
It is Sam who suggested they go alone and separated. But he never asked what Dean want.
Again, kaj, been there, done that. Do we really need the writers to rehash plot points over and over?
I think the show needs to move on from that - we all understand that for both boys, it comes down to "I can't leave my brother alone out there" - they don't need to beat us over the head with it, and make the boys re-verify it every season.
If the boys need to be in conflict, there are a lot of ways they haven't tried writing yet. imho.
Possibly. But again, not this Supernatural, and not a show I'd be interested in. It's about Sam and Dean for me, not the hunting.
Their relationship is the lifeblood of the show. I'm all for character growth, but for the show to have the same appeal, the brothers have to have the same bond that drew me to me to the show. Even in S4 and 5, when they were going in opposite directions half the time, I still felt that pull. Parts of S7 were the only time I felt it lacked something.
Watching 2 brothers who would do anything for the other. Who put the others well-being and safety above their own is just a lot more interesting to watch than 2 people who love it each other but easily get over the others death and quickly move past grief to a healthy balanced relationship. Not only does that not give Sam any kind of storyline connected to the show, but it basically leaves no show. I really don't want to watch Dean and Benny off on adventures while Sam goes to class.
Damn straight!
Good Lord - I don't want to watch them living separate lives every week either - totally not what I meant, lol.
As Jensen said in comic con. There are 3 characters in the show Sam, Dean and SamandDean. These 3 have the same equal footing. There's always co-dependent, there's always too strong bond with the brothers. Always. Because that's the heart of the show.
I think Jensen really gets the show. Also when JC talked about normal relationship Jensen said. "Normal human relationship for Sam and Dean? Good luck, pal."
It is either Jensen said that because he knows that that's not gonna happen with this characters because he had played Dean for 7 years. He knows Dean and Sam.
Or he knows that there will be uproar from the fans.
Bottom line is, I go with Jensen here. Less co-dependent is SO not Sam and Dean and SO not supernatural. Real life maybe but can you mention any real brothers who sold their soul to demon for the live of his brother? Have you even meet a brother who is willing to shackle up with Lucifer to be with his brother? This is not real life. There are tons of other good drama on TV that depicting real life persons but this is supernatural. It's supposed to be not normal, unnatural, beyond natural.
Quoting Bamboo24:
To be okay for wanting different things, yes. But not to go their separate ways. For real brothers in Real life, yes but not in Supernatural. Perhaps the show runner spends too much time with the other show that he confuses this show with that show. This is not supposed to be Sam and Dean trying to be like normal human. This is supernatural where the unnatural happens, so does the theme of the show so does the characters of the show. Their brother bond are beyond natural. Beautiful in it's own kind. Why would we want them to be like normal human? That's boring. That's not Supernatural.
Quoting Bamboo24:
I think that's horrifying, not intriguing at all. Do you honestly, really, truly want to see that? To have a new chick flick drama of Sam/Dog/Vet doctor in a 8PM show. Then to have Dean/Benny slicing monsters, fighting Evil or be Evil in a 9PM horror flick show?
Good Bye Supernatural! Because your two leads characters have own their spin offs and run their different show.
As much as I hate what Kripke had done to Sam in S4, I really want him back if this is what I get in S8. Kripke wrote the S6 finale. You know, the "I can't leave my brother alone out there" line. At least I can trust the brother's bond to him.
Great post!
I couldn't agree more w/your every word! This show is not about normal. I have no desire to see the boys have a healthy, normal relationship. I like their co-dependent, abnormal relationship. I actually liked that - other than Bobby - they only had each other in the first few seasons. It's what made the show unique.
The show is becoming generic and ordinary! That's a shame.
I agree with Jensen too - there are three characters in the show: Dean, Sam, and Dean & Sam. Totally.
I agree that there are many many ways to create conflict and many more ways to write Sam's story. More interesting than this OOC Sam.
I don't buy the Mature storyline for Sam if what Sam wants is to go separate way from Dean because in 7 years he knew that the hunter life is dangerous and it is more dangerous without back up.
It's 180 percent different to the Sam that said "You know me, you know why, I can't leave my brother alone out there." That's very mature to me. It's Sam who realize that his brother is an important person in his life and he can't be happy alone if Dean's not happy too.
The logical path for a mature Sam is if he wants to settle down he should persuade Dean to do the same. That he want to have a happy live and settle down but he wouldn't do that if Dean doesn't. He should make it clear of what he wants but also reassuring Dean that he would not leave him.
He did not even bother to ask Dean about his cruel/mean behavior after Purgatory other than the brief talk in 8.01. In this episode he just thinks of himself.
Some of the arguments that were given as to Sam's resources for finding Dean apply to Dean wanting to hunt and being able to do so without Sam. If Dean needs a partner, there is Garth and Benny and frankly other hunters who could have his back.
I was taken aback by Sam not looking for Dean. I am perplexed by Sam's detachment and concerned we will never get an understanding of why he is detached. But I don't like the idea that Sam has to bow to Dean's needs in this case. Sam gets to have his own life.
Realistically, Sam will return to hunting, because that is how the show is structured. I want him to return because he wants to, not because Dean wants him to. Sam's life should not be one of sacrificing his needs to service Dean's anymore than Dean should sacrifice his needs for Sam's.
After 7 years they should finally able to find their own footing in the hunting world. Finding the middle path, the compromise. Understanding of each others needs but still able to find a way to go forward together. Not, instead, rehashing the old age arguments that already been done and resolved in past seasons.
If Sam doesn't to hunt, then he shouldn't hunt. The same goes for Dean. The problem is the show is about hunting, so one brother is going to ultimately come off - to me at least - whiny and slightly annoying. Dean may try to guilt Sam into hunting w/him, but Sam is a grown man. He can tell Dean to go kick rocks and do what he wants to do. I felt the same way about Dean's whining about hunting last year, and the year before that, and the year before that!
This arc doesn't do the character w/it any favors. It has no resolution or rather only one resolution: returning to hunting. Until it is final season or one actor decides to leave, this arc should NOT be re-visited. It's pointless and ultimately a waste of time.
For the show to be enjoyable to me, Sam has to not resent the hunt as much as he does. He has to find some type of meaning in it. I wish I could be interested in his journey to that point, but I'm literally tapped out from DEAN's three-year exploration of this SAME issue. I'm not sure why the writers recycled this bad arc and just gave it to Sam. It doesn't work and messes w/the dynamic btw the brothers and the show, in general.
This arc should NOT be re-visited!
I agree that Sam is an adult and should just say no, but I also think that he's used to Dean's guilt tactics and hasn't broken out of bending to them yet. Heck, those are the exact tactics that Amelia used to get him to take the dog.
If they are going here AGAIN, can we at least see why Sam made the decision? I mean I understand and support the decision IRL, but it doesn't work for Supernatural.
Basically we are back to Sam is an mystery wrapped up in an enigma and I'm sick of that. Plus spoilers don't show any indication that this will be addressed until at least episode 9 and probably not until after mid season.
Well, I for one will probably not last that long. If it isn't addressed before midseason, I won't be watching.
I think that what is happening may have to do with the show being re-booted for its new time-slot. They are looking to keep the Arrow viewers and what is going to do that is the types of episodes we have seen:
Ep 1 for the fans, set up mystery
Ep 2 action, gods, Thor's hammer, comedy, drama in a weird timeline (purgatory plot)
Ep 3 sports and strippers (seriously?) Though come to think of it there weren't actually any strippers...
Ep 4 straight up horror.
The MOTW episodes are straight forward enough for someone not familiar with the show to catch up.
If they can keep the viewers for enough episodes to get into it then they will likely keep coming back and get intrigued by the characters. And they assume/hope we are going to stick with it while they do that (which I am willing to do).
I don't know, I could be completely wrong, but if that is the case the season should really kick off after episode 4.
Sam wanted out of hunting pre-series and for most of Season 1. After John's death, Sam committed himself to hunting largely out of guilt. in S3, Sam hunted b/c he was hoping to find a way to save Dean. After Dean's death, Sam hunted for revenge. At some point, he said he had given up on a normal life. In S5, Sam hunted b/c he understood he had to fix what he messed up.
So, it may seem like it is natural for Sam to NOT hunt but Season 6 gives us a completely soulless Sam who CHOOSES to hunt. To me that says something about the baser part of Sam and what Sam, ultimately, feels comfort in doing. When Sam is re-souled he IMMEDIATELY jumps back in the hunt. He doesn't say, "Now that I'm back from Hell, I want to finish college, get a GF, and a dog." No. He acts as a hunter. He jumps right back into the thick of things. In S7, when Sam's going crazy (supposedly) and would have every reason to bow out of hunting, he still hunts.
While Sam never derived the joy and pleasure out of hunting that Dean did, I do think his sense of compassion for others would compel him to continue hunting. Nothing has been shown to make me understand why he would suddenly "not" hunt anymore.
I guess I just don't understand why this issue keeps being re-visited when there is no real resolution! Sam will continue to hunt. He has to b/c that's the nature of the show. They need to come up w/better reasons for conflict!
This is what I've been trying to say, but you've fleshed it out better. Somehow, I don't think TPTB are listening.
Mr Carver et al are testing my faith - and my patience - sorely.
I couldn't agree more with this. Sam should not be thought of as a 'bad brother' for not wanting to hunt.
Sam isn't proposing to bail on Dean this instant. He worked a case with Dean because Dean wanted it. He even outright said "You wanted me on board, I'm on board." But he is setting a limit; he plans to finish the Kevin and tablets quest, and then he's going to do other things.
Both of them are being selfish from one POV: what Sam wants hurts Dean, what Dean wants hurts Sam. But I don't think that makes either one of them selfish or childish, and it really bothers me that people are branding Sam as that for making a choice different from Dean's. Dean is an adult. If he chooses to undertake the dangers of hunting, because that is what he enjoys and what gives his life meaning, that's an awesome choice FOR HIM. But it doesn't mean Sam is under an eternal obligation to guard Dean's back in a life Sam isn't choosing for himself.
I think the problem lies in attitude and of course, perspective. Dean's "How can you not hunt?" can be seen as either a guilt trip, or an honest incredulity that saving people didn't matter to Sam, depending on how you view things. Sam's "You want me on board, I'm on board" can be seen as a gesture to Dean, or it can be seen as petulant, as if he's doing Dean some grand favor by being there when he really wishes he weren't.
Now, Dean has an attitude. He is harder edged, less willing to take time to listen because he always wants to be acting/moving. He's not considering Sam's point of view, because he doesn't believe that Sam is going to quit hunting. That's not right, no question. But in the end, he's saying he wants to save people, and he wants to be with his brother. It's easy to respond to that positively.
Honestly, I think that's why Sam is looked at more askance at this point. Sam's detachment from Dean's return doesn't appear particularly caring, so it's hard to think he's there out of his love for Dean. His assertion that hunting is great for Dean, but he wants his life to "count" was downright insulting, though I doubt Sam meant it that way. Add it all up and it seems that we have a Sam that is there because he thinks it's what he should do, not because he cares about Dean, Kevin, or any of the rest of it, and that it's some big sacrifice on his part to be there. I think that's why Sam catches more flack on this one.
That's understandable, but I think it's a mistake to think it's automatically more sympathetic or more admirable than Sam being there with Dean out of obligation, when it means postponing a life he both enjoys and finds value in. I guess I don't find obligation the opposite of caring, but rather a manifestation of caring. Maybe it IS a big sacrifice on Sam's part to be there. I think sacrifice is a pretty problematic value, and that Supernatural spends a lot of time questioning it, and that the limitations Sam is putting on that sacrifice are extremely healthy, but I find using that sacrifice as evidence of Sam's uncaring very strange.
I agree that Sam's remark about wanting his life to count was insulting. But he was also just coming from Dean's dig about people dying so Sam could shop for produce. I don't blame Sam for being rather aggressively defensive after that, though I also don't blame Dean for pushing Sam on what (to Dean) are at the moment crystal clear values and priorities.
Quote:
I don't think it was insulting, I think it's tragic. Sam saved the frickin world! He jumped into the Cage with Lucifer to save it. He has hunted all sorts of things that go bump in the night and saved many people. He got Cas to stand down and release the Purgatory souls back into Purgatory stopping Cas's murder of thousands and thousands of people (Dean refused to try with Cas). He has saved lives while hallucinating and even saved them when he didn't have a soul. Yes, soulless Sam had collateral damage and didn't feel bad about it, but now that Dean is doing it that makes it hunky dory. Sam has done all this while hunting and it doesn't make HIM feel like he is contributing enough to the world. I know Dean has been through Hell (well Purgatory) and the timing could be better, but why does Sam have to boost Dean's ego. Dean is putting Sam's dreams down and has done so since they reunited in season one. The show supports Dean's idea that Sam is selfish and awful for not wanting to do a job Dean loves. And Sam just takes it. If Dean feels hunting is worthwhile and fulfilling good for him. Sam even said that. But demanding that Sam has to fee the same way or at least can't express his need to do something else to feel fulfilled is horribly unfair. Why do Dean's needs take precedence?
But that particular line was insulting because, in the script, Sam is directly contrasting to Dean, not to his own former activities "slashing and killing is all right for you, but I want my time to count (not quoting exactly, sorry, I don't think the transcript is up yet)." I think he is devaluing Dean's values, though, like you, I think he is operating in a context of Dean devaluing his, and that it is understandable that he would lash out somewhat in response.
I'm more on Sam's side than Dean's in their current conflict, but that doesn't mean I don't think some of Sam's responses have been less than optimal or outright hurtful. I don't think Sam's in the wrong, but he's still flawed.
He is trying to say to Dean 'I am a real, individual person and what I want to do must be for my reasons, not because someone else has decided I should do it.' 'I want my time to count for something' is Sam as a being with free will making his own decisions.
His time counting for something has become a different road for him than it is for Dean - I don't think saying that to Dean is insulting, just honest.
I think in the end he will decide to go back to hunting, and throw himself into it wholeheartedly (hopefully) because he wants to - but I don't see how he will get there from here...
While I agree that Sam needs and deserves more time for himself, I don't agree that his whole time at Stanford was tainted. A demon may have introduced Sam to Jessica, but as far as we know, Jessica was not a demon. Sam's feels for Jessica, Jessica's feelings for Sam, and the memories of their time together were all real. Also real were all of the other relationships and memories from that time that we didn't see on screen, but that Sam must have had with non-demon friends, professors, etc. And Sam has three-and-a-half years of Stanford memories, compared to less than a year of Amelia memories.
Maybe his relationship with Amelia was deeper somehow. We may see that when we get more flashbacks. But even if it was, I still don't think that discounts the time he had with Jessica - or makes his comment that he never had normal before true.
If Sam's point of view changes then maybe he goes back to hunting of his own free will? Would make for great potential for new storytelling!
To be honest I don't see Amelia as a long term character / relationship - not like Lisa was meant to be. I think she is meant to be something that Sam does actually lack - a friend. Please don't take that as 'why isn't Dean enough of a friend?' Family is wonderful but you get to pick your friends
Perception - that's a good point and an interesting way to look at it.
Quoting eilf:
This made me laugh (picturing Dean trying to force Sam to hunt against his will).
Quoting eilf:
I don't see Amelia as long term. I never saw Lisa lasting for long either. I see both as catalysts, or inspiration, for something.
Quoting eilf:
I would never do that. I'm 100% behind Sam having his own friends.
When he puts his foot down Dean usually just folds and they do whatever Sam wants.
Sam is a real, individual person who wants to do his own thing. He has frequently done so throughout the course of the show. He has chosen paths Dean and others objected to many times before. If he chooses normal and goes to it, no one can stop him. Dean doesn't have to give him his blessing, and the fact that he isn't doesn't mean Sam has no choices. I think it takes agency away from Sam to behave as if he's never been an individual who's made his own choices before.
I hope to see Sam throw himself back into hunting because he wants to, just as I was thrilled when Dean did so this year. The reluctant hunter horse has pretty much been beaten to death on this show in terms of a plotline.
He and Dean have both agreed at different times that ALL Sam's attempts to become a completely independent person should be considered 'running away' (that isn't my take on it, that is what was said, though I don't remember in what episode, maybe the one in heaven?)- which is not true and very hard on Sam, who wants to be a good brother as well as everything else. I think that previously he has thought that his decision making skills lead him astray. So now he is looking at his life and making adjustments.
Yes Dean is also in most, if not all, of those categories but the difference is that at the moment and possibly for the future he has embraced the role of being a soldier (Brother in arms?) in other words a role his world has allowed him to play.
I don't see Sam looking for permission from Dean now? I didn't mean to imply that he does want it, or want his blessing because I don't think he does - he has stopped being the baby brother. He wants them both to be happy - which Dean isn't seeing at the moment.
I also agree that Sam's every decision to leave being classified as running away was unfair. I thought he had every right to go to college, and I thought he was placating Dean when he said it was. Of course, sometimes the way Sam leaves--sneaking out in the middle of the night, refusing to answer his phone--does seem like running away. But the blanket generalization is unfair. I further agree that Sam has made bad decisions in the past (who hasn't), and always wants to do better than he's done before. I think that's an admirable part of his personality.
I agree that Dean has embraced the idea of being a soldier after being unsure, while Sam is now unsure of the idea after years of embracing it. Why can't these boys ever be on the same page? I agree that Sam isn't seeking permission from Dean, nor does he have to. But he's not reassuring Dean about the most important part of their separation--that he wants to keep being Dean's brother and he wants him in his life. Instead he tried to sell Dean on how awesome it would be if he was alone (because that sounds like Dean) before flat out stating he didn't want to be there anymore. The way it's being presented now, there doesn't really seem to be a way that both can be happy.
Now, I agree that Sam wants them both to be happy and Dean isn't seeing it at the moment, and I think that's because Sam isn't addressing the true issue for Dean in their taking different paths. Maybe he hasn't thought of it yet, but I think if he did he would get a better reaction from Dean. Dean's let Sam go his own way many times over the course of this series, but I think it would be easier if he felt more secure with Sam, especially at a time when he's clearly trying to find his own footing.
Anyway I find myself discussing a point of view with you that is not entirely what I really believe (I think I should 'fess up before I dig myself in any deeper) I don't for one minute think that Sam is going to quit hunting. I had a whole theory going yesterday on one of the other threads about Sam having decided that he had nothing left to live for and having tried to kill himself driving off a bridge hitting a dog in the process and causing him to rethink his entire existence. Therefore he is now in a state of zen acceptance of fate which is why he is being so odd with Dean and so unwilling to fight with him. He would have joined him when he thought he was dead but now that he isn't dead, well, now what?
I think that he will come out of that accepting state and make the decision to go back to hunting but it will be on his terms. Which will be better for everyone....I guess...I like all the melodrama I have to admit
It takes me so long to write my replies that i keep getting logged out...
I'll tell you I"m pretty convinced that Sam's not going to give up hunting either, because you really won't have a show at that point. Supernatural, at its heart, is two heroes in a cool car killing monsters. I don't see them really deviating from that, at least not for long. I don't know about Sam and suicide, but at least it would explain why he's so completely detached from Dean, hunting, and pretty much everything else. I'm hoping some explanation is coming, anyway.
To each their own about the melodrama. At this point, I feel like they've done the reluctant hunter story too many times, and there has to be drama that can come from another source--at least I hope there is. But I do hope to see Sam choose hunting (and Dean) on his own terms. That would be fantastic.
Again, I think Sam has the right to do whatever he wants. But he's really no better here than Dean is about hunting, honestly. They're both espousing why their choice is better, and they both crossed the line at times. Some people react to some things more strongly, while others find different things more impactful.
I don't see any difference between Dean wanting his brother with him and Dean wanting to be with his brother. Dean has, more often than not, followed Sam's views on hunting/not hunting in order to stick with Sam. When Sam wanted to hunt and Dean wanted to quit, he stayed. When Sam told him to go to Lisa, he did. So, yes, this time he wants Sam to stay in hunting with him. The way this episode set up the boys, I'd fully expect Dean to stay near Sam if he settled down, if he didn't settle down right along with him. Then again, there's no indication that Sam wants him to, is there? Maybe he would, though, if he thought Dean really wanted to stay with him more than hunt. That's interesting to consider--what would Sam's expectations of their relationship be if he really went back to normal and Dean stayed on the road?
I didn't say Sam was more or less sympathetic--I was simply trying to explain why it seems some fans view him as less sympathetic. I find obligation is less caring when it is given begrudgingly, and at this point that's the way it feels to me. If it's such a big sacrifice for Sam to be there, maybe he shouldn't be. Again, it's not that Sam wants to get out of hunting--that's fine. If he wants to finish one last hunt for whatever reason, be it obligation or actual care about what happens with Dean, Kevin, and the demons, that's fine, too. But when someone lets you know that helping you and being with you is a sacrifice, it doesn't seem very positive in terms of how they view that person/mission. Mileage may vary, and that's fine.
Of course Sam has the right to defend himself if he feels insulted though I didn't get any sense that he was reacting to a comment Dean had made about his normal life then. He was telling Dean that he'd be happy with no one to account to (which made no sense), and then busted out the "I want my time to count" remark. So I don't see where this was a big defensive moment for Sam. I think he said what was on his mind/heart regarding hunting vs. a normal life. But basically insulting the profession he many times expounded to Dean was worthwhile and important when he wanted to continue, only to turn around and say it doesn't count when Dean wants to continue? Doesn't work for me, frankly. Again, mileage may vary, and that's fine.
At this point, I simply don't know how Sam views family and brotherhood. I know he loves his family and his brother, but I don't know that he knows how to reconcile having his family and not hunting any better than Dean knows how to reconcile having family not be close and still actually care about you. What does Sam's view of their brotherhood separated look like? I have no idea.
Yes, they are at an impasse, and both are incapable of seeing each other's point of view. They didn't grow up with the same baggage and don't have the same experiences. For Dean, when family leaves they cut him him off until he physically gets close to them. He's never experienced anything else. For Sam, family is a double edged sword, coupling love with a duty to hunting that this season he again expressly doesn't want. I don't think he knows how to resolve that either.
Now, we all know in the end that Sam is going to be a hunter, because otherwise we wouldn't have a show. Something will give, and hopefully it will be Sam rediscovering the purpose and importance he's assigned to the hunting profession the past several seasons. Sam deciding to give in and being resentful/martyrish/depressed about it won't be fun for anyone involved. We've been there, done that.
I really like your theory about a mental breakdown for Sam and that Amelia/Riot aren't even real. Maybe they were real, but are now gone but he's still hallucinating them? If Sam is hallucinating, that would tie in nicely with last season's ideas and help resolve them in a more satisfying way. I agree with Sylvie, I don't think that the Boys have been totally reset to season 1; yes, they are exhibiting some of those same tropes again, but Dean is edgier, more ruthless, less conflicted and enjoying the kill more than he did in season 1, and Sam, like Sylvie said, is sadder, lethargic and has none of the fire or anger we saw in season 1. Sam is so detached, he can barely find the energy to argue with Dean about the giving up hunting conflict. Even in his flashback, Sam seemed incredibly sad. I am starting to feel really badly for him, he seems so beaten down. Really looking forward to episode 5 as I am hoping we will get more clues about what is going on with both our boys.
And when they get to read the script of episode 2 it was like "Oh, that's why we got the Thor line in episode 3"
Another thing about episode 5. They will meet Benny in that episode, right? Perhaps it was meant to show Sam that Dean has a buddy/substitute brother other than him. Would Sam be jealous? That somehow he's not the only brother, the only confidant anymore?
Some say that we only realize that we need someone when we already lost them.
And I use the term brother loosely here because Benny called Dean brother in 8.01. Seeing as Benny loved to rub it in front of Cas face how an awful best friend that he was for bailing on Dean, I think he would not hesitate to say it in Sam's face how bad of a brother Sam being.
Benny seems like trying hard to insert himself in Dean's circle and antagonize anyone close to Dean. Well, the first example being Cas and maybe next is Sam?
let's see how Sam take this new development. All of his life he is always be Dean's number one person. And he told himself and Dean that he doesn't need him anymore. That Dean should take care of himself but Dean never do that. Not even once he leaves Sam alone no matter what Sam did. Now, that it has the potential to really happen, I wonder what Sam feels about that. Especially when Dean's new best friend is a Vamp.
I must admit it is much better than I had previously felt. Just still not liking this direction for Sam.
About Benny calling Dean "brother"-I remember a character from lost that called every male character "brother". I do think Benny and Dean have a close relationship though.
Have to say I only could be happy with theory 1 though, as I really don't want any more Michael/Lucifer angel/demon stuff. Been there! Done that!
I have to think something traumatic happened to Sam's psyche that overwhelmed him and holding Dean at arm's length in fear of this Dean not being real sounds like it could be what is happening to him at this moment.
Are Riot and Amelia what they seem, or were they dreamed up by Sammy? Never a birthday cake? Don't believe it for a second. Between Dean and Jess, Sammy would have had many birthday cakes. That in itself seems suspicious, unless it's just a writing error. (which it could very well be)
So happy for Jensen in his directing. He knows what he is doing and had a great mentor in Kim Manners. He is making Kim proud! And it was so adorable to see his dad being directed by his own son!
Personally I'm hoping for a convincing reason for Sam's present manner. I can't believe he is so unfeeling for Dean's abandonment issues to hurt his brother the way he seems to be doing. I can't help thinking back to "Shadow" as you have. That scene was breaking my heart for Dean, as it is doing again. Dean's biggest fear is Sammy dying or abandoning him, and I think he would eat his gun if either of them occurred.
Also, Sam has always wanted normal....that's why he went to Stanford. He never wanted to be in the 'family business'.
I don't think Crowley will let Lucifer out of the cage, he enjoys being "King of Hell" and I can't see him giving that title up.
As for Amelia, I think she's a real person...maybe to keep Sam from going back into hunting.....maybe to keep him from looking for Kevin...
Now that Dean has such clarity about things, I also get why he thinks Sam should. When you see something like that (an idea,but it's almost like it is a real thing that is right in front of you-like you could reach out and grab it),you feel like other people should be able to see it as well. Especially your brother whom you have shared this life with.
I may be wrong, but that is what I get out of it. Not sure if that's what the writers are going for or not. Regardless, I am enjoying the heck out of it!!!!!
It's demoralizing, deflating, and depressing. I watched the first three episodes waiting for some real sign that there was something more behind Sam's actions, but I'm afraid that what you see is what you get. Sam just wants out. Despite the long, complicated journey his character has taken, they've simply reset him back to wanting a normal life, and there really isn't anything more to it. I'm sure there are more details to be filled in, but I think they'll be on about the level of the birthday cake.
This is the second time in a row that they've reunited the brothers in lukewarm fashion, and it's very frustrating. The last time we got a decent reunion was at the beginning of Season 4, when they clung to each other like two brothers who had been separated by tragedy. After the huge deal of Sam going into the cage, and Dean wracked with guilt for a year, one might have expected a similarly emotional reunion in Season 6, but instead it was muted, because Sam didn't have a soul. Now they meet up again after Dean disappeared to God knows where for a year, but again, it's tepid, and we get the feeling that Sam isn't all that happy to see him. You'd think that if Sam had been traumatized by Dean's disappearance and had had a breakdown, he'd be more apt to clamp on to Dean than to suggest he take a hike and go hunt by himself.
Quoting lala2:
It's definitely not the Sam we've come to know from the past 7 seasons. Folks have tossed every theory in the book out there to try to explain what's going on, and quite honestly, they're all weak sauce. Not for lack of thought, and not from lack of effort, but because it's just plain not what Sam would do. Sure, the brothers can dream of a normal life and angst about it, but when push comes to shove, they'll save the damn world, and they'll save each other.
Quoting KELLY:
At this point, I'm afraid that what's up is that they came up with a big, juicy, dramatic storyline of moral compromise for Dean in Purgatory, in which we'll learn that he had to do Bad Stuff in order to survive and escape, and that in order to balance the scales, they knocked Sam down a few pegs first. Nothing else makes much sense to me, because this is simply not the way Sam would act.
I think they are going to go with whatever they were going to do in season 3 which they could not do because of the writer's strike.
Though I confess I also think that at that time they were keeping the possibility of revisiting Sam's Cage issues open, and I rather doubt that is in the cards now. That is, I don't think it would contradict canon for Sam to have had that kind of breakdown, but I also don't think it's likely to be the direction the writers are taking.
I was worried but hopeful after 8.01 and even 8.02. Could not imaging Sam not looking for Dean and abandoning Kevin, thought for sure there must be more to it. Breakdown!Sam, Hallucinating!Sam, PTSD!Sam, you name it.
But then this episode happened and I am now convinced that this is actually Carver's endgame. I went back and read pre-season interviews with Carver, Singer and even Jared. I think what we saw is what we have. Sam's year was Amelia and dog.
I actually yelled "Bullsh*t" at the tv as the flashback scene ended and have been upset ever since. I feel like I am grieving a loss.
Carver: "When I came back to the show, I was staring at a landscape which was laid out with Bob [Singer] and Sera [Gamble]. [They] gracefully gave me, 'You're truly alone.' We really went into the idea of what does that mean, what kind of impact does that have on somebody and how might that affect your mindset," Carver says. "Dean talked about it: 'We always ignored the advice that we gave to each other.' What happens if somebody actually took it?"
"I don't think he knew what he wanted to do, and then he hit a dog," adds Bob Singer -- another executive producer. "That started something new for him and then exposed him to something that he had never been exposed to, because even back in college, there was always family. Now he has nothing. So I think he had a taste of something that he had never had before and it had a really profound effect on him, one that he really doesn't expect Dean to understand. Nor does Dean expect Sam to understand what he went through."
Source : http://blog.zap2it.com/frominsidethebox/2012/10/supernatural-premiere-an-open-letter-to-sam-winchester-about-decision-making-forgiveness-and-chargin.html
We don't know how those tables will turn, or what Carver meant by this 'playing with perception' bit. Obviously he was referring to Dean "piling on" Sam for not looking for Dean, because that was the question he was answering and the context of the answer. It's possible that something else is going on...or it's possible that when we see the bigger picture, Sam not looking for Dean looks completely different than it does to some now.
CARVER: "For now, Sam is keeping thoughts of this woman and this relationship to himself because it’s the type of thing that greatly informs where he is now, at the beginning of the season. It represents something to him. It essentially represents another way and another life, and that’s very much where he’s coming into this season, right now. So, it’s something that he’d rather keep to himself than share."
It sounds like they really thought these storylines through for both characters. It sounds like they've got specific goals and real character development in mind for Sam and Dean. And we are left wondering what was so profound and special about that relationship with Amelia that it affected Sam so much, giving him the confidence and conviction to put his foot down and say, "I don't want this; I don't want to hunt for the rest of my life. It's not me." I think it's a nice change of pace for Sam's character, giving him something fresh and of true depth.
In any case though - I would stay hopeful, first because things may NOT be what they seem to be right now; and second, because even if they ARE, it could still turn out to be great and more poignant than you think.
[I realize I'm biased maybe because I'm really enjoying S8. But I want others to enjoy it, too. My purpose is to encourage]. :)
Quotes from: http://www.tvovermind.com/supernatural/supernatural-season-8-premiere-jeremy-carver-and-robert-singer-teasers-purgatory-sam-dean-benny-kevin/
RSS feed for comments to this post