Jared Padalecki Interview - Supernatural at Comic-Con 2012, Press Room
Monday, 16 July 2012 00:07 | Last Updated on Monday, 16 July 2012 00:24 | Written by Alice Jester | 
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The last time I saw Jared Padalecki, he and his wife Genevieve were days away from the birth of their first child, Thomas. It was at Burbank con and he was all talking babies that day with us. So, as he sat down, I took the opportunity to mention the last time I saw him he was very close to the big event and I finally got to offer my personal congratulations. If we had a lot of time with him, I'm sure he would have shared some stories. However, we barely mustered four and a half minutes.
Here's the video link for those of you who want to watch this on Youtube. There are spoilers, so beware. For those that need a summary while looking at this at work, that's below.
http://youtu.be/s_EpDs4dylA
Jared was asked about Sam's love interest in season 8, one that was brought up at the panel:
“Her name is Amelia. Her real name is LeAnn. Very sweet girl, I met her Tuesday, we had our little flashback. Most of the love interest stuff we see is in flashback. When the season starts, Sam is no longer with her. I know she will come back to not-flashback at some point in time, but most of her this season will be in flashback form."
He went on to explain Sam's state of mind:
"Essentially Sam, who walked away from the life when Dean and Castiel disappeared, when Kevin and Crowley disappeared. He was kind of able to for the first time in his life walk away because he wasn’t walking away from anybody as far as he knew. Bobby was gone, Cass was gone, Dean was gone, Kevin was gone. He had no idea where to even start. When Dean when to Hell, (Sam) knew he was in Hell, there was a crossroads deal you go to Hell after that. Sam went to the box, Dean knew he was in the box. Now, maybe he’s in Paris, he’s at the Louvre. There’s no guidelines.
I think Sam was finally able to go, “You know, they’ve vanished, probably not good, Kevin and the King of Hell are gone, who knows where, he doesn’t know where to start. I’ve given enough, given it all, I’ve died, (many times we joke).” I think Sam is able to walk away (with) a storied career, from a successful career hunting."
Jared was then asked what he was most excited for the viewers to see this season. He’s looking forward to them fleshing out Sam and Dean a bit.
“This is never going to be a show about Sam and Dean’s girlfriends.” He thinks they’re going to be able to add a lot of value to his character. “We saw Sam when Dean was in Hell. He was drinking and he was a mess. He didn’t live a good life and was torturing himself, and hooking up with Ruby. But now we see him able to live a normal life that he’s never been able to do. Even with Jess his brother was still out there, his Dad was still out there, everyone he knew was still out there, they’re still hunting. Now he’s able to just go, “I’m giving the life up. I’m worn.”
“You say the show is about two brothers, but there’s kind of a third character and it’s them. The most important thing is the Sam and Dean relationship, and then there’s some Sam and Dean. But I think fleshing out Sam and fleshing out Dean will add to the Sam and Dean relationship which is the show in my opinion is based on.”
He was finally asked about the prospect of going on beyond the eighth season, something that Jeremy Carver eluded to at the panel. He hopes it does, for they've got new blood so to speak in Jeremy coming back and they're on Wednesdays now. Jared loves having a character like this that he can continue to flesh out and he compared the 150 episodes of "Supernatural" to 72 two hour movies.
And that was it. Up next, Jeremy Carver. I gotta say, that one was a thrill more me. More on that coming up.
For all the latest Supernatural info and article links, follow The Winchester Family Business on Twitter at @WinFamBusiness
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Comments
And I can't believe now Sam is downright useless just because there's noone else. You are supossed to be smart and have resources. Last time I checked you knew how to summon Crowley, who seemed to know a thing or two about Purgatory.
I don't know, Sam. I don't know.
let's hope they're keeping some big secret that makes sense out of this spoilers.
Crowley is someone who only looks out for himself. He sees no gain in helping Sam retrieving Dean and Cass (especially Cass) from Purgatory. So Sam calling on Crowley would be a waste of his time.
Sam is resourceful, but as Jared as said, where would he begin? Finding Kevin? Taking on Crowley one-on-one? Yeah, he'd probably die trying. Sam's taking the opportunity to get out while he can, and when Dean comes back, then I'll be more concerned about if he's giving the hunt or the job any effort.
i don't even know where to start from is a good excuse for me to avoid spring clean, but it's very weak for Sam to save his brother.
All I'm saying, this is OOC, we've seen Sam growing as a character all these seasons, he's not the kid that left his family anymore. nad this is not the path he was following. At all.
If some fans like it, well, good for them. I need something more, sorry. I'll wait and see, but if they just don't care about Sam's (and Dean's, I bet, we just don't know as much about Dean=characterization, I won't enjoy the show and I think it's time to quit. That's all.
Sam could search for Dean on his own. Without a body and with Dean disappearing right before Sam's eyes, Sam just gives up?!?!? In what world?
Clearly, these writers don't care how horrible Sam looks!
Also, the entire story isn't being shared here. There's going to be flashbacks in which it's revealed what Sam went through and how much that time without Dean changed him. Flashbacks that haven't been written yet. This is a season long process.
Quote:
Most of us weren't. We - or I should better say I - can only take the bits I hear and react to that. It's just as simple. And if I react strongly - negatively or positively - it's because I'm passionate about this show.
I believe you when you say the writers do care. That does not mean I love everything they do with the show, season 7 being my prime example. Of course I could've waited until the season aired and swallow my dissapointment - which was just my inital reaction that I have no control over - and just not comment. We know from Dean, that pushing emotions down never ends well. So I thought that venting out a little, get it out in the open with minds alike (and there seem to be quite a lot of people who feel the same) and move on from there felt like the healthier way as long as I am not disrespectful to other commentators or generally rude - which I hope I've never been.
Unfortunately I got the feeling over the last season that if you say something negatively about SPN you are not considered a true fan anymore.
That's why your site was actually the last one I even visited, because you presented articles that were objective (even when maybe unpopular) and that we could talk about it - yes maybe even vent a bit (as long as it stays civil). Now I get the feeling that people who are not super excited about those spoilers are considered whiners, not real fans, too impulsive for not waiting out the season or ungrateful since we should be grateful that we got another season at all etc. My personal experience is that I even get ignored by certain people (and I don't mean your site, just in general) if I'm not cheerleading all the way to season 8.
This leaves me a little sad, since all I've done for the last couple of years was SPN based (be it wallpapers, drawings, my tumblr, devianart and many more...), so I considered myself quite a fan. Now that I have a crisis in faith (and this is only since season 7) I feel pushed out of the fandom somehow. Maybe it's just me...maybe others feel the same, I don't know.
Bottom line is that I get the feeling of not being welcomed into the fandom if I'm not seeing things hyper excited anymore (except for those who maybe feel the same).
I'm sorry, I know this is not exactly related to this topic above it's just a general observation I made with some of the articles considering the new spoilers.
Since I can't change how I feel but can't seem to be welcomed to express those feelings it leaves me only with one choice to retreat and leave the people who are excited about SPN alone.
I wish your site all the best though since you really made an effort for SPN and their fans.
I think here there's been a lot of people with very similar feelings to you. It's been expressed many places by many people, and I don't think that anyone meant you couldn't be unhappy/worried with the spoilers. I think sometimes what people mean to be reassuring can sound dismissive of your legitimate concerns. But sometimes people who are feeling positive don't like reading comments that are negative (especially if they get repetitive or hyperbolic--I'm not saying your comments did, but I think some comments here did reach that point), and they'll tell you so. I remember the shoe being on the other foot last year, so to speak.
Long story short, I don't think there's anything wrong with being worried or negative, and I don't think there's anything wrong with expressing that here. I think there are a lot of people feeling the same way, and I think that means you're finding yourself in a different corner of fandom, not pushed out all together. Yes, some people aren't going to agree or ignore posts they don't like, but that's the nature of fandom. So do what makes you comfortable, but I think there's a place for every fan under the umbrella somewhere, and chances are there's other fans sharing the same headspace already there.
Great post! I couldn't agree more w/you!
I fully admit to not having positive feelings about the spoilers I read, but I thought that was okay to express as long as I wasn't rude to anyone.
But, like you, I realize that I have no positive thoughts to share. I'm not excited about the next season, and nothing I've read changed that so I am just going to leave the happy fans to it.
This is my dilemma as admin. I want to hear all sides. I love reading all sides. Positive, negative, even scathing is allowed because I know it's coming from a passionate fan. However, I established guidelines a long time ago that our long time posters like seeing followed. I get complaints if they aren't. So that's the only reason I gave a warning on a couple of them. You aren't in trouble, or banned, or unwelcome. There were just a couple of posts that went beyond our rules and I had to make note.
I would like to see you continue posting. I don't think you're bad fan. I don't think anyone here is a bad fan. I just have to step in sometimes when tempers flare. Trust me, if I found someone to be a bad fan, they would be banned. So far, I haven't had to do that to anyone (knock on wood).
There's no way around it, season seven was a bitter disappointment. The most exciting thing about the press room is season seven was rarely discussed. I think we all knew it fell short, and everyone in that room was ready to look forward. The problem is, season seven was so bad that the expectations for season eight are super high. If you really look at what was said at Comic-Con, they didn't give away too much. They really want season eight to be a surprise. This is hardly comfort though for frustrated fans who need answers. It's hard for these fans to say to Jeremy Carver that they trust him and believe that season 8 will be everything they imagined. It's a lot to ask considering the Sera Gamble era didn't deliver despite much promise.
So, as someone who had that rare opportunity to be in that room and feel that vibe, I'm trying to offer solace to angry fans. It might not be enough. That doesn't mean I don't want to hear your frustrations or opinions. It's just I'm trying to offer perspective. I'm certainly not dismissing any anger expressed by people.
Your opinions are welcome here. They always will be. Just be prepared, others will offer theirs as well and they often won't agree. As long as opinions are shared though with respect, we're good. If they're not, that's where I step in. Except recently, but that's a rare case of two admins being on vacation at the same time.
Emmau is right. This fandom often shifts. It will again. You'll find you are not alone.
I have to take exception to this. For you, and in your opinion, Season Seven was a bitter disappointment.
For me there is no bitterness involved. Nor really much by way of disappointment. It wasn't perfect, I agree. It perhaps didn't have the story focus that , say S4 did.
Were the Leviathans my favorite storyline? No. But I personally liked them better than the psychic kids storyline in S2.
Could they have gone in a different direction for solving Sam's mental issues? Yes, absolutely they could have.
Did they HAVE to kill Bobby (especially while leaving Becky of ALL characters alive)? No, they didn't.
Could they have quit with the 'dick' jokes while they were ahead? Yep they sure could have, yessiree.
Do you really think that S7 wasn't discussed because the folks thought it was subpar? How could they think that when they were rewarded with a move to Wednesday nights? I would think that S7 wasn't discussed much because the focus was simply on looking forward to S8.
It did get mentioned once. At one of the roundtables in the press room, somebody asked Jensen -- of all things-- about 'Season Seven Time For a Wedding' not working. (I'm trying to remember what it had to do with S8 that it was brought up) but his answer was to the effect 'This is the first I'm hearing that it didn't work.' and he wasn't being sarcastic.
So yes, actually come to think about it, I am bitter about at least one thing - the fact that Becky didn't die a bloody gory death. ;)
This is truly a great forum and I don't think sometimes that everybody appreciates what goes into creating an atmoshere where opinions - dissenting and all can be expressed as they can here at WFB.
I certainly never felt that Sam's characterization in souled s6 and s7 was unsympathetic. The Sam of Time After Time responded to having Dean vanish in front of him (in a situation where he also did not have Bobby or Cas to fall back on) very much the way you would expect a skilled hunter and loving brother to respond. And the Sam of 6.22 refused a chance to stay safe in his head, find Jess, and never face the hell memories that would bring him torment and insanity because he wouldn't leave his brother alone out there, a line that Jared said defined his character.
So at the moment I am having a lot more trust issues with the hints we are seeing of Carver's Sam than I had with Gamble's. I fully admit that there are plenty of ways that a plot reveal could turn this around, and it's not like I am ready to say that Carver is a terrible showrunner without watching his season, but my issues are with what we are seeing now, not with what we had coming out of the last two seasons.
I, at least, am not nervous about the Sam characterization because s6 and s7 failed me, because on that front they didn't. I am nervous about the Sam characterization because what we are hearing about s8 is distressing and utterly baffling, in a way that nothing in s7 renders plausible. In fact, I am inclined to wish that s7 were still a topic under discussion in the press room, given that this season seems to be abruptly reversing characterization that to me was infinitely more recognizable as the Sam who has been growing and learning and making mistakes and remaining fundamentally Sam since the Pilot.
And I realize I may be becoming a tiresome repetitive venter here, so let me say that I do greatly appreciate your site and the discussion here and the trouble you have taken to bring us all this material. And I continue to hope that all my doubts will be turned around by the actual season.
I'm not as concerned about the construct of Sam 'giving up hunting' because I do believe that there will be more to it than he simply walked away. However, if he did just walk away and the love interest is all that we get from Sam's part of the separation, I'll be PO'd -- partly because, as I said, its BORING and mostly because of the construct of the show within a show they're talking about doing. Dean battling monsters in Purgatory vs Sam romping around in the wildflowers with a girl? Blech. (I love the part about Dean in Purgatory)
I loved S6 and SoulessSam when he was badass and a good hunter - it was to an extreme of course that needs to be tempered, not neutered.
This is character assassination. Sam has been tossed under a bus, and there are tire tracks all over his back. Jared can try to rationalize this crap because he has to play it out, but there is NO explanation for Sam NOT even trying to search for Dean! None!
I'm so angry and sad I forget to thank Alice for her work.
I love the sound of all this stuff, it all feels new somehow and I'm so looking forward to the season. I like what Jared said about Sam, Dean and the third character which is the brother's relationship. He makes a great point that without fleshing out the two guys separately, you don't get much forward motion on the relationship. I was more worried before we started getting this tiny spoilers, and now that there's some basic information about what the early episodes will be...October can't arrive soon enough!
Thank you, Alice! :) I really look forward to Jeremy's interview.
Oh and Alice...another great interview!
I don't give two craps about Purgatory, Benny, or any angels this season.
Sam will look like he doesn't care and Dean is mad at him. Every damn season starts out like that, and I just don't want to see that Sam-hating bull anymore.
I thought at least Sam would try and save Kevin if he couldn't save Dean. Instead, it sounds like Sam just shrugs his shoulders and gets out of hunting.
The writers just keep re-doing the same thing over and over again and then pretending they've done something new. No. Just no. They need to actually sit down and watch SPN as if they were a regular viewer or a fan. Maybe this will be a good season, but the general outlines of it sound like a retread of a retread of a retread. And I have no sympathy for Sam being thrown under a bus for Saint Dean again. Meh.
And Dean gets present-day relationships while Sam's is mainly in the past in flash backs. How the hell is that fair to Sam, who once again is not only friendless but also Dean-less, since Dean never cares how Sam feels about anything or what Sam wants or needs.
The real problem on SPN is that Dean gets fleshed out every episode but Sam never gets that kind of detailed, focussed attention. That is what Sam needs but Jared has probably never gotten much of that unless Dean is not there in the same scene. Which is so sad, because Jared and Sam both deserve better from the producers and writers.
What do we know? If Dean is all emo, Sam won't be allowed any feelings of his own. If Dean is angry, he will yell at Sam and hit him, just because. If Dean has Purgatory and a year has passed, what happened to Sam's Cage memories, Soulless Sam memories, and hellucination traumas? See, jumping forward in time is also a way to erase the Cage story for the Dean fans who hated Swan Song in the first place. Then, ta da, replace all the Sam stuff they hated with Dean stuff and it's all magically better.... Meh.
And isn't this Dean being thrown under the bus by the writers? Not exactly "Saint Dean" when the writers have Dean do this, is it? I've heard many fans call Dean an abuser for this.
Both brothers make mistakes. They are both flawed human beings. So maybe Sam does make a mistake when he doesn't try to save Dean, just as Dean has made mistakes in the past.
Boy oh boy do I agree with this. Last season was so incredibly anti-climactic !!! After Dean does the whole "stone one" speech in ep2, then he basically ignores Sam's issues from then on, except for the occasional "how ya doin'"
... the writers just ignored the hellucinations for so long...the idea of Lucifer stalking Sam 24/7 - what gold!! and we got an occasional hand grab?- for how many episodes??? ...and finally Cas simply "healed" crazy Sam and that was that. Arc done. Huh? What?
I'll say it again. Jared and Mark P. have NOT gotten the recognition they deserved for those FEW scenes...
Now, season 8, we're supposed to believe that Sam is going to ignore the rest of the Leviathans, (ok, maybe we'd all like to ignore them) and Kevin??
Even if I believed, (which I can't) that he wouldn't look for Dean (that whole natural order thing has bitten them a few times, so i guess you could argue the point), I don't think he could go back to being the Sam who didn't hunt.
They gotta sort this out! I really hope their "fleshing out" will deal with some of the old baggage both boys carry.
Here's a quote from Ben Edlund that he said at one of the other tables. I LOVE it, because in his own crazy way he acknowledges a short coming of season seven:
"It would be cool if we had a higher instance of absurdist toss-away episodes. I think that that's something oddly we would have had more of last year, because it seemed to me like we were moving in the direction of a B-movie premise with the monsters [the Leviathans]. I would say the monsters were actually a wrestling match of things that worked and didn't work, but mythologically speaking they set the ground for other things that I'm very pleased we've got working in our grandfather clock, so to speak."
I took this to mean, that the focus fell too much on the Monster story and not the other elements, like funny episodes. Carver knows this. I like his plan to bring more focus to the relationships.
We really don't know anything about how they are feeling. You want to know why? They were purposely trying to conceal that. That's the crux of the flashbacks, the drama that we need to wait and see.
I will admit, Sam hasn't been fleshed out as well as Dean in seasons past, but I really think that's going to change. I got the impression from Jeremy Carver's comments in the panel and the press room that the goal is to explore both brothers. In his words, "We're going to give a chance for our brothers to come out a bit."
Carver thought that the last few seasons were too myth heavy and didn't focus enough on the personal relationships. He's going there. He just needs a chance.
This!
So in this season the writers have gone back to the roots and I think its fascinating, and very much in sync with Sam's character. Not for a moment do I think it shows Sam in a bad light. If the writers show (and that is the impression I get) that Sam had no idea what to do, where to start, it makes sense. There are no hunters he can trust. He's had bad experiences with them including his own grandfather. There would be no one to watch his back, in fact Sam might have got a knife stuck in his back if he tried to partner with other hunters and he almost did at a bar not long ago. I can understand why he feels he has no choice but to move on. And I am sure the show will explain his state of mind.
Sam is not being selfish, he is just being practical. It takes guts to move on. When Dean was in hell earlier Sam was on a self-destruct mode, and that was a weakness. I am glad that this time he holds it together.
JC clearly has no idea who Sam Winchester is if he believes Sam would honestly shrug his shoulders and just go on w/his life knowing that Dean is somewhere likely suffering some type of harm! What kind of brother are they trying to make Sam out to be? A cold, callous one who couldn't care less! Why? Why do that to Sam?
Why is Sam's love and devotion for Dean constantly in question? Why can't we see Sam looking for Dean and doing his best to find Dean? Why is Sam being set up - again - to look like a jerk who couldn't care less?
Again, you haven't seen the end result. And if you read other interviews, everything is explained, just slowly over time through flashbacks. I know from Jensen's comments Dean manages to at least look past all this and get Sam back into the game.
There's no way they're going to give full blown details over what Sam went through in his time away from Dean right now. That's what you have to tune into see. Now I understand that involves a bit of faith, and in the past couple of seasons the writers have given us no reason to trust them, but after talking with everyone in that room, I trust them. This is the first time since early season six. It really sounds like the problem was a lack of direction before. Writers can't do characterization if their showrunner gives no such directive.
Now, if we're still having this conversation midseason, rant away!
That's how I'll feel about. Can't speak for anyone else.
It's so early, far to early to think the worst about much of this news.
I also feel like I'm reading different things than everyone else because I'm excited by all these tidbits, and I'm not seeing many others who have anything positive to say (I'm quite the lone voice!). I wonder what I'm missing because I see tons of great possibilities for Sam, and Dean too.
I'm with you mybelle. I think we are not being fair to Sam. Sam is a hero, and will always be. If there is no way for him to help Dean, there isn't. That is what the story is saying and its not ideal, but its okay because it opens up other possibilities.
Sam and Dean are each other's world, and each other's weakness. It's really not a stretch for me to imagine that Sam, watching Dean disappear in front of him, finds it hard to start searching when he really doesn't know where to go or who to ask for help. I bet he tries to do it alone, but how hard would that be for him! I don't think he'll be living a "happy" life, but he'll be surviving. I don't know. I think, as you said Nita, it opens up a lot of possibilities!
I guess part of what I'm trying to say is that both Jared and Jensen have a tendency to say things without thinking about *how* they say them will be interpreted by us fans. Both of them have also said that they know precious little of what will happen this season. It just makes me sad to see so many people upset when I think there are so many good possibilities for both characters coming in season 8.
I wouldn't despair that the show and writers have given up on Sam - there wouldn't be a show if they did.
I have a quote:
Dean will feel slightly resentful that Sam didn’t try to find him, according to Edlund. Dean will essentially ask “‘why didn’t you look [for me]? We had a tacit agreement that we always look [even if we said we wouldn’t]’
And there're more like that.
I'd give you a link but I find it a bit rude to paste links to other sites here.
I hope you're right, I really do, trust me. But I need to vent a bit too, because I believe I'll be disappointed.
Also I do not understand the rest of your comment. Dean did not get Sam out of the cage. Cass did. Or have I not understood something?
The way the spoiler said that Sam did not look imply that they have no interest of shooting a scene where Sam trying to find Dean.
I can understand the need to vent (I spent most of the first half of season 6 in a perpetual mode of needing to vent!), and I hope you start to feel a little better about these spoilers. I don't want to change your mind, but I hope I've offered some perspective. Of all the people who could have come on to run the show, I think Jeremy Carver is the best as far as allowing for character growth and exploration (and with his SPN episode credits I think we can expect good things). I have faith he won't let any of the writers do a disservice to either brother. I also hope more news comes out that gives you (and others) more to look forward too, because I want everyone to be as excited as I am for what could be a wonderful season.
I see nothing heroic or brave on giving up. I see no love.
Maybe you see things differently. But keep in mind, i'ma Samgirl, I love Sam, and wanted to see something better for him. I'm not bashing Sam. I'm just sad.
I also believe giving up is the best thing at times, and I don't see it as giving up anyway. I see it as moving on so I guess we have to agree to disagree.
All the spoilers seem to imply that this is what happens. How could Sam not try to find Dean? When people go missing in real life, their relatives search for them but here Sam shrugs his shoulders and moves on with his life?!?!?
A show about two brothers who would die for each other just became about one brother's devotion to the other. When Sam was in Hell, Dean didn't rely on Bobby or Cas for his search so why would Sam? Do the writers not see this track makes Sam a selfish, uncaring bastard?
I'm bi-bro, and this spoiler KILLS the brotherhood, IMO.
The problem with this is that it again splits the fandom. A lot of fans always assume that Sam is wrong and this gives them something to use against him. As a Sam fan I hate that Sam is always made to look bad. I had hope when JC came on board but these spoiler's have pretty much killed any hope I had.
I agree with whoever said that Sam not trying to find Dean is totally out of character for Sam. Why throw Sam under the bus? He's one of the leads of the show. Makes no sense to me.
I'm upset because, so far, these spoilers do not ring true to the Sam Winchester I've been watching for the past seven years. Sam would NOT just give up on Dean. He wouldn't forgo a search because it might be difficult or because he has no ally to turn to for assistance. Sam is a bright, intelligent man and a seasoned hunter yet we're being led to believe he can't make a move or do any research without someone holding his hand. Huh? That makes no sense.
It is very damaging to Sam's character if he just throws up his hands and gets a girlfriend without even attempting to look for Dean. Dean disappeared. Dean did not die. There's no excuse for Sam to not look for him. Dean has made many sacrifices for Sam, and I always knew Sam would do the same but the writers would have me believe differently. It's upsetting.
I can only hope Sam DID search though JC, JP, and BE strongly imply he didn't. I can only hope they have a better understanding of Sam than that.
Nita, what do make of the idea that Sam doesn't search? That he literally leaves that building and gets a new life without ever attempting to locate Dean or find out what happened to him? What if the only explanation is he was tired of hunting anyway? How would you feel about that?
So, this is where the debate goes. Will those changes be for better or worse? I just can't decide based on vague spoilers, but as you know I have a blind faith in Jeremy Carver.
I agree, it would be damaging if he gives up while not looking, but I don't think that's going to be the case. I think there's a story behind his actions that will eventually be told. I just don't know when or how. Another theme that Jeremy Carver stressed? Nothing is what it seems.
I do wonder about the flashbacks though. If Sam was not searching for Dean or hunting, just how many FBs will we get for Sam? The show can't focus episodes on Sam's relationship with Amelia - at least I hope that isn't what's planned!
Plus, I guess , if such a twist actually exists, it's gonna be revealed through flashbacks, taking some episodes.
I guess we'll get to see some Amelia flashbacks, but I don't think they'll give us lots of domestic scenes. I mean, that'd be the weirdest thing ever lol and I doubt the writers think SPN fans tune in for that.
This is why i am hopeful...because if something like season 4 damaging portrayal is shown i don't think i will have the inclination to see any news about supernatural on internet...
Also i would like to give the clean slate view that i gave to Gamble to Carver too..
Returning late, but I have two concerns about that line of argument.
1. The portrait of Sam emerging from the spoilers (wants a normal life, has a normal relationship, is reluctant to hunt, wants to pursue the larger goal and not take time for the side hunts, needs to get out of the shadow of his family) sounds very much like s1 Sam. Much though I loved early Sam and his journey, I'd be more excited if profound changes over the separation didn't seem to be more a reversion to a Sam we've seen before rather than a new development. Regression is a possible response to trauma, certainly, but it tends not to be the most exciting writing choice.
2. If it's true that Sam doesn't try to search for Dean, that reversal of characterization has to occur almost immediately after 7.23. There isn't a year's worth of development to play with to explain why Sam reacts so differently to the loss or threatened loss of Dean than he has before (from Faith in s1 right through to Time After Time in s7). So whatever they do to explain Sam taking that road, if it is indeed what happens, cannot be the culmination of Sam's separation arc, it has to happen right at the outset.
The problem is that as long as the show is around, that puts whoever wants out at odds with the structure of the show and is inevitably something he has to learn or be compelled by circumstances to get over. I felt exactly the same way in s6 about Dean. For Dean Winchester the person, settling down with Lisa, once Sam was back and OK, would have been an excellent idea. But as long as the show goes on the narrative has to be turned whatever way necessary to get him back to doing what show requires he do. Given that, I think it would be better if they stopped writing the "one leaves hunting, the other gets him back in" scenario over and over. Though at this point I fully expect s10 to start with Sam coming to Dean's house to drag him reluctantly away from the grill to face the supernatural again.
I'm also having problems suspending disbelief at the idea of Sam and Dean spending a year going through separate experiences that dramatically change them and, by a wild coincidence, each coming to the point of being much like their s1 self.
I'm having problems believing that 1 yearon Earth for Sam meant more than 200 he spent on Hell with Lucifer and Michael. But we don't kn ow how much effect Hell actually had on Sam, right? Does he even remember?
I hope this season serves to teach both brothers a lesson and the writers can stop abusing the trope where one of them is having a normal life an dthe other drags him back.
But it's two different kinds of suspension of disbelief for me. Believing that, say, Sam was forming memories at all in the Cage when he didn't have a physical brain to receive and store those memories (and the same for Dean in hell) is a matter of genre. It's a fantasy, I accept that. But convenient coincidences of characterization are a different kind of problem.
Um, no, the spoilers didn't say that. Trust me, I poured through them with a fine tooth and comb. If you disagree, please find me a quote. I've checked out all the interviews and I haven't seen one.
That Edlund quote doesn't say that. That says Dean's initial reaction. For an episode that hasn't even been filmed yet! It certainly doesn't tell Sam's side, and from my understanding there is one.
Please, do share links here. We like it.
I'm trying tofind the link but I can't. I think is was a quote from Edlund saying something like
we do know there will be a bit of initial tension. Dean will feel slightly resentful that Sam didn’t try to find him, according to Edlund. Dean will essentially ask “‘why didn’t you look [for me]? We had a tacit agreement that we always look [even if we said we wouldn’t]’.
Sorry , I can't check videos right now and again, I posted a few days ago already , after a lot of fandom drama and my memory is not the best. If if I find the source link, I'll post it here.
So, yeah, I calmed down a bit, at the moment, I think they're trying to make us see Dean's POV, but I think there might be something else we don't know yet and makes a big difference.
Quote: This line almost made me choke on my cornflakes. Yeah, they’ve vanished, it’s probably not fucking good, Crowley now has the means to unleash God knows what upon the earth yet Sam decides he’s ‘given enough’ and walks away. I feel physically ill after reading that. Is there any possibility JP was just taking the piss to stir a bit of debate because if this is how Carver sees Sam, and if this is what he has in mind for season 8 (and beyond) then I can’t see much reason for continuing to watch because it seems that, short of a full frontal lobotomy to explain away Sam’s indifference to his brother’s fate, he will be considered as the most selfish, self-absorbed bastard to ever walk the face of the earth. I’m sure that will satisfy a certain faction of fans but unfortunately, I’m not one of them.
My only hope now is that JP, JA and BE are all involved in some huge Punk’d type scenario where they were lying through their teeth to get the fans talking about season 8 but given the show’s past willingness to throw Sam under a bus at every opportunity, I doubt it.
Thanks for the interviews Alice, and sorry for being so negative but one can only cling onto hope for so long before it's gone.
Thank you for , don't know, for understanding. I'm soangry right now,becauseI keep Sam as a character close to my heart and this spoilers are upseting me (isn't that obvious?). But you can't express what i mean way better than I do.
This is a character assassinating type of spoiler. As you mentioned, with everything they've taken from Sam, I always secure in the knowledge that he would do anything for his brother and that he loved his brother deeply. To read that Sam essentially shrugs his shoulders, gets a 9-to-5 and a girlfriend and just moves on with his life is very troubling and goes against the basic premise of the show! The show is supposed to be about two brothers who would die for each other not one brother who always sacrifices while the other twiddles his thumbs because he's had enough.
I also don't believe Sam would just give up without even trying. That rings false to me. Sam would try, and I don't believe he'd ever stop.
What the heck are we supposed to think about Sam knowing he doesn't even try to find Dean? I'm a bi-bro who loves both brothers equally, and this spoiler does Sam NO favors. I'm not sure why he's constantly doing questionable things or why he's always being tossed under the bus! I'm sick of it!
Jared is a positive guy but there's no way to spin this BS. None. Sam will look like a non-caring bastard if this spoiler pans out. Plus, it effectively kills the brotherhood and bond btw the brothers. I mean if Sam can't be bothered to look for Dean, then Dean needs to go on his own and leave Sam to his precious life.
I honestly may not watch next year. Sam is always, IMO, being screwed over by the writers. I feel like they have zero interest in Sam other than as a plot point for Dean.
Very disappointing spoilers!
Personally I'm so disappointed and saddened by these spoilers regarding Sam. This really isn't doing Sam's character any favours. I can understand him being so broken by the constant losses that he wants to walk away from hunting. What I don't, and cannot, understand at all is why the writers also have him walking away from trying to save Dean.
And why is it always Sam as the "bad, inconsiderate, evil, uncaring" brother? Why?
I say keep clinging onto hope. If you were in that press room with me, the vibe would have really changed your mind.
I am still wary. Season four ended with much of fandom turned completely against Sam and the writers have been unable or unwilling to write a version of Sam that certain very vocal critics trash. This has probably reached a point where the damage can never be undone for some fans. If I see the writers at least trying to give Sam a stated POV as opposed to having to suss out from Sam's actions alone what is going on, I will be happy. Until now, Dean has been a character who despite his "no chick flicks" comment has been vocal about what is going on inside. Sam has been the guy who if he says anything it is said off screen and so IMHO his POV has been obscured more than Dean's. I hope the maturation that the writers are talking about changes this. I am tired of "what is wrong with Sam" this season.
I do intend to give JC and the staff a chance. Unfortunately the way certain spoilers were phrased made it sound like the same old, same old Dean is abandoned and betrayed by Sam yet again. I'm probably in for the long haul, I just wish that once the spoilers indicated that Sam would actually NOT be portrayed as neglecting Dean. OTOH, the initial spoilers about Sam fighting hallucinations and psychosis last season came to naught, so I really shouldn't jump to conclusions yet.
I'm tired of giving the benefit of the doubt. I will in as much as I am not going to stop watching immediately, but right now if Supernatural goes head to head with Chopped, Chopped might just win. It won't break my heart and tell me that the character I love is a no good, cowardly person, who doesn't care about helping people and who doesn't care about his brother. He is a self absorbed jerk who is happy his brother is dead and he can go on and have a normal life, even as the world falls apart and he can help stop it.
Heck, even hearing that he was out of the life, but acting in a Bobby like capacity, researching for hunters, providing alibis, pretending to be whatever agency they need to vouch for them, I would be happier. But no, he just goes skipping through the daisies with Dr. Amelia.
Sounds like there will be a common quest ("something near and dear to their heart's") that brings them together and they are both invested in the hunting life again. Like in the pilot. They were leading separate lives and John missing & the killing of Jess started their shared journey.
He, for some reason, assumes Dean's gone and just moves on w/his life. He doesn't look for Dean. He doesn't track down Crowley. He doesn't seek answers. He doesn't do anything except get a girlfriend!
What about the brotherhood? What about the bond Dean and Sam are supposed to share? What happened to the brothers who would BOTH die for each other? I guess we now know Sam won't be dying for Dean anytime soon or doing anything to assist Dean. Some bond they have!
This is character assassination! I will never buy that Sam is a cowardly loser who can't make a move w/o some outside help.
JC's view of Sam sucks and will ruin a good character!
But STOP with the attacks on Jeremy Carver. The guy hasn't been with the show since episode 18 of season five, one of the best episodes ever in terms of brotherly moments. You cannot accept this as his view. Jared gave the spoiler, not JC. There's no history with what he's written or said that warrants this attack. Now if you want to cite examples that other writers have done over the last two seasons, I'm all for that.
I basically see myself as giving opinions. That's all. We probably have different views of bashing but I don't consider my comments to be "bashing." I'm sorry you perceived them that way. I was frustrated and expressed that frustration. I didn't think I had crossed any lines but I understand you do.
I can also delete my comments if that would be helpful.
So, anyway, it was not my intention to "bash" JC but rather just share an opinion.
For one, you're doing fine for the most part with your opinions. If you notice, most of your posts were left alone. I certainly don't have issues with your discussions on other threads. They have been fine. I just know this is a super charged issue for you, and I am permitting some latitude.
I will concede I did misconstrue your comments as bashing. I like others have touchy subjects, and I guess you hit one of them!
Please continue posting. It wasn't just you that had comments edited or responded to with a warning. There were plenty of others, including long time posters. Heck, even I got a warning recently from our other mod (I did break my own rule). So I do apologize about misunderstanding this one and thanks for typing up a comment of defense.
Yes, but Dean stepped back after Lucifer had been caged and the Apocalypse had been averted. He also did it only because Sam asked him to. If Sam had not made that request, Dean would have gone on trying to save the world.
Sam is stepping back with Leviathans running around, Kevin taken by Crowley and the world falling apart. Things are still a mess and Sam is certainly one of the few hunters out there who knows much about the Leviathans. Like you said John might have quit IF he killed the YED, but not if the YED was still running around and Crowley and the Levis are still running around.
It's nice that there will be a common quest, but so far the spoilers still give us Dean who selflessly cares about saving people and Sam who selfishly wants to have a normal life. I'm hoping that Carver will give us a Sam that is understandable and not the bad brother. The current spoilers make that hard to see and I have liked and defended Sam since the beginning.
I wanted a human story for Sam but not one that might again cast unnecessary aspersions on him .The spoilers I must admit have left very mixed feelings .
I have a lot of problems with Sam not trying to save Dean, and some with Sam not trying to save Kevin. I don't have any problems with his choosing to take a break or even a permanent break from something that has often been a destructive lifestyle, not just in the price people pay, but in the effects on themselves (I really don't think Supernatural is endorsing John's neglectful and abusive parenting as heroic and right, for instance.)
I think Sam, at the point he was on season 7, would keep hunting. For many seasons, we've seen Sam and Dean kind of switching roles, Sam being more into it and Dean feeling, at least, discouraged (I liked this switching as character growth, Sam being more antisocial, more 'like John' -without some bad implications- after all).
But I can understand if Sam wanted to quit after losing his brother. Sam is not RoboSam, he doesn't hunt as an authomatic response, on pure instinct nor for pure fun.
So I'd be okay with Sam taking a break, yes, even a permanent one, if Dean is not around to hunt with him.
But not trying to help Dean, well, that's bad. Because we know Dean never did the same, we've been told Dean wanted to die, as you said, and he accepted his normal life because Sam asked him, almost as a last will. The implications are huge, and put Sam under a very bad light if he does not reciprocate.
I'm not saying thatit is a healthy dynamic for real people, but it is right in context of SPN and its universe, and in the context of what Dean and Sam mean for each other. When Sam is not doing what Dean would do for him, Sam inevitably looks as a bad brother (imo), and worse, he looks OOC because he's always tried before.
When Jared was describing Sam's future role, during the interview, I was just staring shocked.
First of all, he should have been in Purgatory with his brother, that not being possible at least trying to get him out!
When I heard Jared saying that as Sam has no-one left and he doesn't know where Dean is, he's just decided to get away from it all and hook up with the doctor lady, not bothering about his brother, I thought I had heard wrongly. But no!
Whatever way I expected the writers to go this season, it was never down this road.
I've a feeling it's really Edlund in command here and Carver is just the front man.
This would be more of an Edlund view of things. Dean in parnership with someone who isn't Sam!
Please, I don't like unfounded accusations, even though you did preface this with "I have a feeling." Again, I understand the frustration with characterization. They've really taken a step backward with both brothers since the end of season five. But was the attack really necessary?
Ben Edlund is an ideas guy. Always has been. It's his job to drive the showrunner's vision. In the last two seasons, Sera Gamble didn't have a clear one. Now comes Jeremy Carver and he has one. Everyone is excited about it, even Jensen and Jared. Ben Edlund's mission isn't changing. He will continue to write at the direction of the showrunner. He even said that in the interview I did with him.
So, I'll make this clear to everyone, if you want to vent fine, but no unfounded attacks on show staff.
(Edited by Alice. This is offensive and disrespectful to the poster. Please make your points in a more constructive way).
SPN, imo, of course but I'd say it's pretty obvious it's true, gave both brothers storylines. Maybe Sam got a few more, but we usually get Dean's POV of the whole story to compensante.
But among all those storylines, I think Sam got the short straw more often than Dean, and this season's spoilers sound like they'll make Sam seem like a selfish brother. Again. Because you can't deny that happened in the past, and not always because he was really selfish, but because we hardly see Sam's POV (or probably, due to external reasons, such as Season 3 missing episodes).
Seasons 6 and 7 were bad for both Sam and Dean's characterization, imo. Dean was given a depression that never got explored, and Sam's issues were dropped or easy-fixed in a lazy way.
That's why Sam fans are upset (I love both brothers equally, but include myself in the Sam fans group). It's not that we want Dean licking Sam's boots. In my case, I just wanted Sam to take what was his righterous place since Season 3 and save Dean, and this is so so far from that I can't help being upset.
But I've already seen hate towards Dean for some spoilers Jensen threw around (that I pretty much adore and make me love Jensen even more) and that's not a view I share, or most Samgirls, I think, do.
Most of us love both brothers and want a good plot for both. But we're worried about Sam because the spoilers don't sound bad for Dean, that's all.
(sorry for the long comment)
I shouldn't read spoilers. I really really shouldn't.
This might be the worst spoiler I've ever read (taken at face value but what the hell else do we have???!!!!).
Oh Sam. Maybe I shouldn't watch the new season. I'm allready so freaking tired of the lack of connection and heart, I don't wanna destroy the last remaining shred of love that I feel for this show.
Oh Sam. What have they done to you?
Excuse me, I'm gonna go hug my SPN seasons 1-5 DVD's and pretend the rest was just a bad dream.
God, I hope they prove me wrong.
I can't believe he doesn't feel hurt for his character. I would.
I love both brothers and there's nothing better than when they face their problems together.
I feel we have had enough of them being at odds or having issues between them.
They aren't normal brothers. The life they have led has brought them to depend on one another implicitly, and I'm sure that even Jensen isn't happy with the way this is going, as he continues to say that his favourite episodes are those of the "monster of the week", in the Impala , kicking butt.
He even repeated it in this latest intervew. That means he likes Sam and Dean together, getting on with their hunting life and not the weird Myth-arcs that they are proposing when thery're trying to make out the Sam doesn't care about his brother!
Why couldn't both brothers have finished up in Purgatory, fighting their way out?
No, now we need a new "Castiel" to get him out, after which we will get Dean with this new guy, ignoring Sam.
Is Sam's arc to be his life with Amelia? Wow, that's really a great idea; very innovative!!
I promised myself that I wouldn't read these new spoilers but I couldn't resist, and now I feel awful for Sam and in reflex also for Dean.
I think Jeremy is giving them new back story with their separation and character development that the show desperately needs.
I'm not sure what's bothering me more - the fact that Sam is giving up so easily on Dean, or the fact that Sam's helplessness seems to reinforce last season's theme that the Winchesters are helpless without Bobby there to tell them what to do.
I know, right? What? Sam can't make a move w/o Bobby or Castiel to hold his hand? Since when?
This is some BS!
Sam could ask her unless she died during the apocalypse.
But how? demolishing every bit of characterizatoins on Sam we've seen? Making him unlikeable and callous?
It's not acceptable. I have a sister I love more than anyone else in the world, but we're not like Sam and Dean used to be, because they were special, they were heroes. And even so, if my sister goes missing, I'd move Heaven and Hell to find her.
I can only hope for Sam to be at least as good of a sibling as i am. And I'm not the best.
How can I like Sam when he clearly doesn't care enough about Dean to even BEGIN a search?
What they are doing to Sam is HORRIBLE! They are essentially ruining his character . Is the goal to make him so hated that when he dies no one cares?
Rule #5 – When a discussion has reached an impasse, move on
I can guarantee you there will always be someone that disagrees with a point. That’s perfectly okay. The dissenter or dissenters are more than welcome to discuss their issues. However, after a while, when it’s clear that both sides are at an “agree to disagree” point, there isn’t much more to discuss. Don’t continue posting comments loaded with bitterness, disapproval, and harping on other posters for answers. Just move on.
Your last several posts keep harping on the same thing. You think Sam's character is being ruined. Okay, we get it. Please move on from it. I know you're angry. I know that some people love venting anger and discussing things to help work out the apprehensions. I'm cool with that. But please, the comments are getting too repetitive. They are ruining the discussion for other posters. Try a different argument, okay?
Thank you.
I can understand if it is Season 1 where they were young and not already hardened hunters with a buck load of burden and issues. There are 7 seasons long back story that they could pick. For example, Sam's hellucination problem that could rear its ugly head now that Dean (the stone no.1) is gone. The Leviathans problem that now without any leader just another meat hungry monster and they are supposed to be everywhere. Kevin's disappearance and many things.
The characters can develop from last years and the years before that issues that's not been addressed, yet. Why invent new one that's arguable.
I'm confident that there is more to this storyline than Jared can tell at this point. The showrunners gave him the synopsis with the talking points and he's doing variations of it -- just like he did when it turned out Sam was soulless. Everybody thought his explanation for why Sammy would ever stay away for Dean for a year was character assasination then too.
So let's look at this -- love interest that he's no longer with.
Hmm why is he not 'with her' if the normal life is the thing? Probably because she was in danger -- how about if Crowley said - 'Quit trying to findyour brother and Kevin or innocents will die. Like this Amelia, for example. Kevin's fine, I'm not hurting him and I can assure you, your brother is not suffereing in Hell. This is your chance Sam - get out of the life - take it."
Crowley gets an important piece off the chessboard and everything the spoilers said is true - but there's more to it.
"You might think something will seem to be one way at the beginning," and presumably changes - so perhaps it seems that Sam didn't look for Dean because he couldn't for a reason we don't know yet.
“What you’re going to see is obviously the boys coming together after some time apart. That’s “to be determined” time right now. " So its perhaps NOT a whole year apart.
I really do think this is similar to Season 6 -- something else is going on besides Sam trying on 'the normal life'
Personally, I like thesd spoilers a lot and I think they make sense, but Im not making assumptions.
According to TV Guide, Sam meets Amelia, who is a veterinarian, after he accidentally hits a dog while driving (the dog is okay!). Then they start dating.
And Dean hasn't been into one night stands for a long time now.
I just had this idea in my head that maybe Sam met her at a hospital (for humans)
But I heard that apparently Sam gets a dog? , so it would make sense he might run into a vet at some point...
When the season starts they are no longer together, we'll learn why through flashbacks as the story unfolds.
I was writing on another board, if Sam goes to Missouri and is told my Missouri that Dean is "dead," then I will be okay w/Sam picking up the pieces of his life and moving on. There has to be a reason for Sam to stop the search for Dean. More importantly, if Sam doesn't even begin a search, there needs to be a good reason for his actions.
Hopefully, this has been thought out and planned. If not, it will be a disaster, IMO.
The "psychic" who couldn't even tell there were TWO spirits in the house? Or that neither one was destroyed when she delcared it "cleaned"?
Not to mention I halfway think she'd tell that, thinking "haha, hope that douche burns in hell". From what I saw of her she couldn't stand Dean and would happily tell Sam that he was worm fodder.
I'd had more faith in Pamela if she could be contacted via seance.
Sam needs some reason to either not search or to stop the search early. Missouri could provide that for him.
Honestly, I find not looking in the first place to be almost better than to stop looking because of "intel" from someone who has proven to be so painfully incompetent before. If that is all it takes to stop someone, they needn't bother in the first place. I can respect making the conscious choice to not do it whereas a half-hearted "alibi" attempt? Eh.
Something, anything will work.
Sam walks away with good stories? Are you freakin' kidding me? I cannot believe that the man who wrote "Mystery Spot," "A Very Supernatural Christmas," and "Point of No Return" believes that Sam would just give up like that. And that's how they're going to promote Sam for the eighth season.
They're going to turn Sam into a self-centered, self-absorbed, selfish bastard for what? To please the fans who already hate him and will hate regardless. You're just screwed if you actually like or love Sam, because clearly these spoilers show how stupid we are to love the half of the brotherhood who does't care! Ugh! Why are they doing this? Just to make Dean look super cool so that he can save himself from Purgatory and get out when no other monster ever could? They are going to make Dean the awesome good brother and Sam the horrible bratty brother. I cannot believe this.
I don't know what to say. It doesn't make any sense, because if you destroy Sam's character like this, then you destroy the brotherhood, therefore the show. I can't believe they would even think saying those kinds of thing would be a good idea!! They can't come back from this if they really do it.
I was thinking on whether on Edlund is really in charge. But even though he said this Comic Con that Castiel was his favorite character to write for I can't believe that the guy who wrote "How to Win Friends and Influence Monsters," "Hello, Cruel World" and "Reading is Fundamental" who write Sam like that. Sam was never like that.
Sam has hunted on his own. He broke contact with Bobby and didn't need his help then. So, I'm suppose to believe that after shouting "Where are they?" over and over to Crowley and Crowley said "can't help you Moose." Sam just went "oh, okay, I'm sorry to bother you. I think I'll go get a real job, good luck with your evil plans!" Sam hates Crowley and he wanted to kill him for a long time, and now, he's just letting him do whatever the hell he wants!! UNBELIEVABLE!
The only logical conclusion from these spoilers is that they want to destroy Sam's character to make it okay for Dean to have other relationships. (If we're suppose to take these spoilers for what they are.) I mean they seriously can't think that the fans who hate when the brothers are apart are going to react well to Sam NOT LOOKING FOR HIS BROTHER AFTER EVERYTHING THAT HAS HAPPENED!!! REALLY?!!
So, far, I'm feeling like Jeremy Carver is the worst showrunner for Supernatural. Sera Gamble and Eric Kripke did things that I absolutely hated and thought were terrible for Sam, but they NEVER took as far as character and brotherhood assassination.
And he can't fix it now, because once you put spoilers like this out there. People are going to judge and hold it against the show. They took a major event and basically threw once of their main characters down the garbage disposal and flipped the switch. I can't believe they would promote Sam like this at COMIC CON! Seriously. They didn't say too much concrete about Dean, but Dean still looks like Dean. I don't know who the heck this guy is.
I really think this is intentional. I think they are trying to get everyone to hate Sam for whatever reason. The spoilers from this are going to taint how the show is view come October. So, unless, they are seriously BS and it is nothing like this and Sam didn't give up on Dean, then Sam is screwed. I just don't see how this is just one big misunderstanding. Because it wasn't just one person saying it. If they don't want to do the show anymore, then stop, don't destroy characters.
I don't know if I can stick around and watch it. I can watch some nasty train-wreck television shows, but I don't think I can watch Sam be transformed into some horrible nasty person while Dean does everything himself. I really don't think I can watch the show anymore if this is the road they are going to take. I'm not impressed with Jeremy Carver. I loved his episodes, but then again I loved Sera Gamble's episodes. And Sera Gamble might have been a bad showrunner, but I never believed from any of her spoilers that Sam was going to be terrible and horrible to Dean.
This is crap. And unless, I see some serious backtracking or changes, then I'm not going to watch. I can't. If I'm getting this upset over spoilers, then I can't imagine how it would be if the show actually does this. I cant' believe after seven years of watching, it's going to end like this.
Why are they doing this to Sam?
I feel the exact same way, Katy! If you are no longer interested in maintaining the integrity of the characters, then just let the show end already! It's been on a long time and had a good run, excluding the train wreck that was Season 7. I don't want the show to continue if the writers have no clue how to write the boys in a realistic, good way.
Quoting Katy:
I don't know, Katy! I'm asking the same question. I have no clue why he's being thrown under the bus, but he most certainly is if the spoilers pan out the way read. There will be no brotherhood or bond anymore. Maybe, that's what the writers want - to get rid of those fans who loved the boys being together and their relationship. I don't know.
People don't just disappear, Dean. Other people just stop looking for them. 1.03 - Dead in the Water.
Kill me already. But make sure to check before they leave me for dead and bury me, please.
I don't know. There needs to be something else *hopes*
Really? You seriously think that the showrunners of a TV show want viewers to hate one of their main characters? One played by an actor who the head of the network clearly likes - on a show that the head of the network has moved from the graveyard of Fridays to Wed nights paired with their brightest new show for the fall? You seriously think the writers or showrunners or whoever are sabotaging the show by destroying one of their two main characters?
Obviously, the implication that Sam won't be the hero out of the box on saving Dean from Purgatory isn't how a lot of fans wanted the story to go. I get being disappointed but please, take a breath and step back from the ledge.
Neither Jared nor Jensen know very much at all about what is going to be happening yet. Jensen said that 'they don't tell us anything." We DON'T have the whole story.
Many were upset last year about the spoilers for Dean as well. I've often read comments from posters that the writers don't like or appreciate Jensen.
Spoilers come out, and ppl get upset. That's how it works.
Of course she's entitled to feel however she wants. I understand that, but if she was standing in front of me hyperventilating, I'd still give her a paperbag to breathe in and tell her to calm down.
Look, I'm with you to a certain extent - I don't think these are the greatest spoilers for Sam's character either. I agree it will be OOC if Sam simply gave up and never looked for Dean. I think the idea of a love interest on SPN sucks - it has never worked before and I have no reason to think it will work this time.
But to make the leap from 'I hate these spoilers' to 'they're deliberately destroying the character of Sam and ruining the show' is taking it just a little too far.
They might ruin my enjoyment of the show by including the love interest, but other people are looking forward to it. So who am I to say they're destroying a show that other people are enjoying?
I'm sorry if my response seemed callous - I didn't mean it that way - if Katy really is worried that the showrunners and writers and whoever are deliberately trying to ruin the show, she needn't be. They aren't.
I suppose its possible they could do it accidently. But I honestly don't think that this characterization of Sam will be what does it. I'll be completely surprised if there isn't more to these spoilers about Sam's actions while Dean was gone.
Instead of to in between the two statements insert becauseQuote:Yes and her telling the show is destroyed may be for her or may be she was telling for everyone she has not specified.She is an viewer..If the show is destroyed for me i could care less if the majority of the world was watching it..it was destroyed to me.
I disagree that there is that intent. But, in the end of course, that is only my opinion.
Melanie, that's all I'm saying. These spoilers are horrible (to me) and cast Sam in a very negative light. I just can't put a positive spin on Sam not trying to find Dean. And because I can't rationalize it, I do wonder what the writers are thinking by having him do that IF the spoilers are just as they read. I do wonder if the writers understand Sam at all to think he would go live a happy life in the wake of Dean's disappearance.
Honestly, I would feel the same way if these were the spoilers for Dean. The show is based on the brotherhood and the bond these two men share. How can the bond exist if one of the brothers seemingly doesn't care that the other is missing and possibly suffering.
I'm not Katy, but if she's been feeling bad about Sam and his characterization/writing for years now, then she may honestly feel like the showrunners/writers are deliberately destroying them.
Quoting Mel:
I honestly think Katy wasn't trying to speak for anyone else. I think she was just expressing how she feels about the spoilers. I could be wrong, but I think she's just frustrated and expressing those frustrations.
For me, the show will be destroyed IF there is not more to this spoiler. Presently, I cannot think of a way that this spoiler - as written - does not ruin Sam Winchester and assassinate his character.
Dean sacrifices so much for Sam, and Sam couldn't be bothered to look for him b/c it was too hard and he had no leads or help w/the research?!?!? Really? That's it.
That would be awful, IMO, for the show to do to Sam.
I'm with you that I hope that's not it -- I really think that some of that is just Jared free wheeling the rationalization for Sam - honestly its the same as how Jared described Sam's rationale for not telling Dean he was out of the Cage.
You know I think back to the very moment of the show that I became really invested in the story of these two guys - it was in S1 Shadow, I think, where Dean tells Sam that things can be the way they were and Sam says No they can't be because I don't want them to.
To this day I don't think we know everything about these two guys and I think following through on this theme is good storytelling. I don't know if I'm gonna like it - if it turns out Sam just didn't try - but if he didn't because he's damaged and thought Dean was dead - I'll be ok w/it.
But I don't think Jared knows the full answer to the question of what happened while Dean was in Purgatory yet --or if he does, he can't say.
That gives me a lot of hope, if he said the same thing before S6. Because it's not the plot direction that worries me so much as his explanation.
I didn't start worrying until I heard Jared's interview and then I really started worrying because the explanation didn't satisfy and being as he's seen through episode 4 already, it was troubling that it was that vague an answer.
But if that's the way it's gone before, then maybe he isn't supposed to or doesn't give more specific answers. And also the flashbacks may be going in reverse order, start with recent and work backwards, or just all jumbled up time-wise. So it is possible even if it's episode 4 that he just doesn't know yet.
http://www.buzzinetv.com/interviews/tv-interview-jared-padalecki-supernatural-08142010
and I think Mel may be onto something. I can very much see a similarity between the two explanations. I think what was said in this interview was just Jared coming up with his own reasoning.
I don't think, or I hope, that there isn't some big mystery or cover up like with Soulless Sam. I'm not among those opposed to more 'what's wrong with Sam,' but I do think that might be a few too many plots to juggle. But I'm a lot more convinced now that reasoning Jared gave in the interview is not actually the reasoning of the show and the reasoning of the show hasn't actually been given yet. Maybe it's a plot point, maybe it's the pacing of the flashbacks and dialog and they just haven't gotten to where it is addressed.
I know this might still be problematic for some, that they take that long to give an explanation, given PoV distribution concerns etc. But done right, I think it can be pulled off.
The writers IMO are very smart in letting out certain info that they know will stir up the fandom, it seems like they know that even the smallest thing about Sam's storyline will always get the fandom going more than anything else. Well played writers. Now people will be talking about the show/discussing/bitching/bashing and speculating all the way to the premier and whether they like what they've heard or not they will tune in because they'll want to know the truth, want to see if they were right or wrong. From what I've seen nothing gets the fans of SPN more riled up than Sam, even the tiniest bit of info has them interested whether in the positive or the negative.
I hope that is the case! Otherwise, Sam will have been destroyed for no reason.
I wish I had more faith in the writers but I just don't. I didn't like Season 7 at all. I enjoyed Season 6, but this last season sucked to me on many levels. I wasn't excited by the finale. I would have rather seen both brothers in Purgatory. I wasn't excited to hear about Sam's romance, and not b/c I'm jealous of girls or anything silly like that but b/c Supernatural does not do "longterm romance" well at all. Romance and Supernatural don't mix.
So, needless to say, these spoilers for Sam only furthered my complete disinterest in next season. I know I've been a negative nelly but what can I say . . . . I'm jut not a "happy" fan at the moment!
We really don't know if they are doing this to Sam. Stay tuned. And layoff the attacks on show runners and writers without seeing the finished product. Thank you.
“A lot of the season is all about perception. You might think something will seems to be one way at the beginning, I think the fans hopefully will be pleased with that. It’s never quite how you think it is in a very raw emotional way.”
With regards to Sam not looking for Dean: I'm thinking that when Dean meets back up with Sam, that he sees a Sam who's living a normal life; he sees someone who appears at least semi- happy. Maybe Dean jumps to the conclusion that Sam didn't look for him, that Sam didn't try. That would be Dean's perception. Maybe it's later revealed through flashbacks and Sam, that he did look for Dean for sometime, but eventually decided to move on with his life.
As for Sam giving up the hunt, I'm not sure of his reasoning, but that's something that will possibly be explored more in depth throughout the season.
I'm taking the wait in see approach, because I honestly believe there's more to the story.
Because, let's rememebr Jared and Jensen don't know what's gonna happen beyond a few episodes.
I just don't want to believe they're doing this to Sam :( I'm a little less upset than I was when i first read the spoilers, but still very hurt as a bif Sam fan.
I'd like to think the writers understand how horrible and damaging it would be to Sam and the brothers' relationship to have Sam NOT looking for Dean and not even beginning a search. They have to know that, right?
If there is something like that in play, I hope we're told in the premiere. I'd hate to be left thinking Sam's a jerk for half a season or so.
That's what I'm hoping for.
Yeah. But I doubt they'll tell as quickly. If they want it to be a surprise, the mistery will last for at least 6 or 7 episodes, imo. Something similar to season 6 and Sam's soul.
And if they plan on having it appear as if Sam shrugged his shoulders when Dean disappeared and did NOTHING to search for him when that's not really the case, I should hope they'd clue in the audience so we all don't think Sam is a jerk!
Both boys are getting a story. Dean learns that he is a hunter in Purgatory, and Sam examining what he always wanted (living a normal life for a year) makes him a better hunter.
The boys are together, yet we see throughout the season what happened to each of them by examining what they did during their separation. I'm liking the flashback approach of a slow reveal...keeping in mind that "perception" will play a big part.
Both characters get to interact with other support characters, yet examining each of them separately strengthens the brothers' bond.
From what everybody said, it appears that Carver actually has a plan for the season and beyond. All that's left is the execution of that plan -- which I've only ever heard that he is good at -- and the writing. I was disappointed that certain writers were still on-board, but the bright spot is that Edlund said he turned in his first on time script. Hopefully, that equates to Carver having control over his writers.
Everyone on the panel seemed relaxed and genuinely happy, unlike last year when I felt there was some tension. I mean, even Edlund was making sense when he talked. That's got to be a good thing, right?
The Impala is back. Cas will be developed. Crowley and the boys will have a more contentious relationship. (No word on Bobby yet -- and I hope he doesn't come back (so sorry, Jim. I love you.) because dying twice last year was quite enough, and I honestly don't see what role Bobby has left now. Sadly, no mention of the music, but I'll keep my fingers crossed there.
All in all, I'm not worried about what story they tell, as long as they tell a coherent story and it plays out well. Again, I hear from those that watch Being Human that Carver is good at that.
In watching Carver's interview, I felt he was honest, had a good handle on the problems SPN has been having, and has a plan for where he wants to go.
So count me as one of those that are satisfied with the spoilers that came out of Comic Con. I feel I found what I was looking for in the new season.
I'm finally back in my time zone from Comic-Con, and as you all may have noticed, I haven't been moderating comments. I haven't had the access or the time, and Ardeospina is away on vacation too.
I'm going to start going through all these comments later, but I have already gotten a few "reported comment" messages. Those will be dealt with eventually, I promise. In the meantime, keep the tempers and the "offense" over comments down to a minimum. The number one most important rule here is respecting others. Everyone has an opinion, and all are welcome, even unpopular ones. Obnoxious behavior on the other hand, not allowed.
But 3 things:
1- Sam's a skilled hunter and a smart man. He should have resources, he should know things. Sorry, but 'what can I do' is a weak excuse that makes Sam not only callous about his brother, but also lazy and dumb.
2- Dean did try.
3- I don't blame Sam. I blame whoever decided to mess up his characterization like this.
Thank you!
(1) You are right on point. Sam is a seasoned hunter w/a wealth of knowledge about the supernatural. He does not need Bobby, Dean, or Castiel to research into Dean's disappearance. For the writers to act as if Sam does need someone to hold his hand is ridiculous.
(2) Again, you're absolutely right! I wonder why people keep saying Dean did nothing when Sam was in the Cage. Dean most certainly did search for ways to get Sam out of the Cage. He tells Sam in EOMS. He said something like, "I looked everywhere for a way to bust you out." Dean did look. He wasn't successful, but he looked! That's the least Sam could do for Dean, and I call foul on the writers for acting as if he wouldn't or couldn't do that.
(3) Another great point! This is not "Sam's" fault. If he is written in this whacky, OOC way, I'll put the blame where it belongs: on the writers!
So, yes, yes, he tried. Plus he was sad, and miserable and wanted to die. I'm not saying he didn't have some good moments, because I believe he didm but he wasn't okay or relieved or anything like that.
Those differences are huge!
Yes, normal hunters would move on with life, in this case. But Sam and Dean aren't normal and I don't want them to be. If Dean were dead, yes I can see Sam move on. But not with this unknown, and Crowley up to no good with Kevin.
Why can't he have the girlfriend, and look for Dean and hunt Crowley? I hate this talk of "maturing" the boys - I want them dysfunctional and mocking each other like always! The one sacred cow of the show - Dean and Sam's love for each other - and this spoiler implies they violate it up and down...
Having said this, I am distressed that many Sam fans are resorting to attacking Dean, in lashing out in their anger. Boo.
I really love the idea of Dean getting his equivalent of Sam's season 4 storyline, because I think theres potential for some major growth in the character and the chance for the writers to bring Sam and Dean closer together through a shared experience?
I agree, though, that if we have to recycle storylines (which I am never a fan of and still hope they're not doing) there is at least the hope that they will be able to use this to give them more in common. Sam might now relate to Dean's position in S6 and/or S4, and vice versa. Since I'm hoping they use this season to bring the boys back together, that could help.
I hope you don't mean me? Because I love Dean I wouldn't even dream of attacking Dean. I'm excited for Dean to finally have something that drives him again. I like it that Dean works hard in Purgatory trying to get out although the fact that he made deals with a creature, again, makes me wary. Sam's S4 redo with Dean? Could they think of other thing?
But overall Dean's ok for the time being. It's Sam's situation and spoilers implications that baffled me. Why oh why did they write him like that? Never been shown before that someone from inside purgatory ever be able to get out without ooutside interference and somehow the writers wrote Dean can get out from the INSIDE? If they can write that, they should be able to write Sam somehow finding another way to open a leak into Purgatory. To send a beacon to pull Dean out. Purgatory hasn't been explored well in S6 and 7. If the can find a way for Dean to get out despite the previous allusion that no monster get out by themselves, then it's just a matter of vast imagination and creativity on the writer's part to make Sam being able/have a part to help Dean out. Just saying.
It's enough for me to have one brother resent the other or even resent each other. I don't want a repeat of that, it breaks my heart.
It's the usual light vs dark trope they have every season, where one brother seems to be reflecting the dark side, and the other will represent the better side of humanity.
If Dean has as viscious a time in Purgatory as they imply, perhaps Sam's story is meant to refect all that is good about life on this earth, and everything that makes life worth fighting for.
Ironically, not having Sam look for Dean sort of defeats that, if that is what they plan. But the spoilers are so vague, and there is no clear proof that there wasn't some initial search right after Dean disappreared. Something we will see in flashbacks.
This story of Sam's will then be crucial to give them the reason to fight - but the telling of it will be tricky. And if they don't write it well, watching it will be either boring or painful.
It sounds like they are more interested in showing two contrasting worlds - Sam in love in a pretty field of flowers vs Dean's horror in the purgatory wood scenes. That will be visually amazing, but dangerous for characterization.
I just hope the current quest time story gets as much attention and heals the scares the good vs dark trope leaves.
As for this spoiler, I can't let myself believe that they will portray Sam as not being devastated by the loss of Dean, but I am DEEPLY afraid that they will portray Sam as being pretty incompetent. Sam is smart, he's a creative thinker, he's extremely knowledgeable about the Supernatural world, and even with his losses, he's still very well connected. There are too many holes in the argument that he doesn't know where to look. He knows Dean's disappearance is connected to Dick or to the Word of God, so he needs to do some old fashioned detective work to find out more about Word and to find out what Dick and Crowley knew. He'd have to be smart about it. Crowley wouldn't just volunteer information, so Sam would have to come up with an incentive to make Crowley and the remaining Leviathans talk. Sam should also be looking for Kevin - not just because it's the right thing to do - but because Kevin is connected to the Word of God, and the Word is connected to Dean's disappearance. Yes, the demons took Kevin, but Sam knows something about demons.
Yes, we have a new showrunner, but other than the Jeremy for Sera switch, we have the same group of writers as last year, and those writers as a whole showed very little respect for Sam's character. He was portrayed as being only a shadow of the hunter and thinker he once was, and it would not surprise me in the least if the writing group accepted without question that Sam wouldn't know how hunt for Dean without Dean or Bobby there beside him.
I'm still holding out hope that Edlund's comments reflect only Dean's POV and not the reality that we'll be shown, and that maybe the writers chose to throw out some incendiary comments so early to gauge fan reaction - because there's still time to make changes.
Sam faced very much the same situation in Time after Time, which was only maybe a few months before 7.23, if that. Dean vanished before his eyes. Sam didn't have Bobby or Cas or Dean then. He had help from Jody, who is still out there, and from, you know, books, and the clues he could find in the events surrounding Dean's disappearance. And he set out researching, figured out what had happened, and contributed in a major way to Dean getting back. Sam has been confronted with someone mysteriously vanishing as a case scenario probably hundreds of times. Why wouldn't he start the way he'd start any other case, except with more urgency because this is his own brother?
I just don't understand how he can not know where to start in this situation. He has beginning points in what he knows about Leviathans, what he knows about Dick, what he knows about the weapon, what he knows about Crowley. He's not totally without contacts -- Garth is still out there, Jody is still out there, Charlie is still out there, not to mention antagonist sources like Crowley, the alpha vamp, Death. He encountered fairies in s6 who claimed to have a back door into the Cage; mightn't it occur to him that they could also have a back door to wherever Dean is?
Saying that Sam doesn't try because he doesn't know where to start is completely absurd. He's been investigating this kind of thing professionally since he was a kid. It's like saying that someone who has a PhD and has published extensively suddenly can't do something that requires research. When it would make infinitely more sense to say that Sam investigated and ran into dead end after dead end, it's utterly baffling that they would have Sam simply walk away at the outset.
I have to believe that the writers have something up their sleeve on this one, because this isn't just destructive to Sam's characterization (this is the guy who took on his hell memories in 6.22 because he wouldn't leave his brother alone out there), it defies simple narrative logic. I am at a complete loss as to why they would go with this storyline if they do. It makes the writers look even more incompetent than it makes Sam look.
I agree very much with your first point. I just don't see that returning abruptly to a scenario where Sam wants normal and is reluctant to be drawn back into hunting and Dean wants to hunt with Sam and finds meaning and purpose in hunting and this causes conflict between them (this from a Jensen interview) isn't choosing to recycle an old conflict and wiping out the character development which has given Sam and Dean a much more complex and varied take on "normal" and hunting over the years.
Why return again to a variation on what they have already done in s1 and then played with reversing in s6 instead of choosing something different? Especially when Sam's abrupt "don't know what happened to Dean, think I'll get a dog now" turn that is required to set up the scenario is so very difficult to get character or narrative sense out of. They seem to have gone out of their way NOT to do something different when doing something different would have been a far more natural progression from the finale.
And I very much hope your last comment is true!
I mostly think of Sam's comments about giving up on "normal" as signs of a low-grade depression that's been growing since season 1. He seemed more resigned to a life of hunting, and his destiny of having ties to demons and Lucifer, rather than having ever embraced it. So I'm happy with more exploration of this.
The only part of these spoilers that really jumps out at me as being wrong is that Sam would never give up on trying to find Dean as long as he believed Dean might still be alive. Even if part of him desperately wanted to retire, not knowing would keep him up at night.
I do take some hope from the fact that Jensen's interviews make it clear that Dean's take on almost making fun of Sam's desire to have normal is clearly rooted in his experience with Lisa and Ben, and reflects the inevitably flawed perspective of his own tragic experience. I like the fact that they seem to be explicitly building on s6 there, because there is a whiff of reboot about some of this that I think is a danger.
On the same principle, I hope that in exploring this storyline with Sam they will revisit the effect that Sam's experiences with Hallucifer had on his take on normal, freak, and himself. If Sam isn't still profoundly affected by his experiences with hell and with mental illness and if that isn't developed it will be hard to buy his happy and healthy existence.
Also, given how many of his experiences (with Jess and Madison, with Ruby, with his dissociation from himself as soulless!Sam, the strongly implied rape in the Cage) would seem overwhelmingly likely to affect how he would approach a romantic and sexual relationship, I hope they really explore the journey that Sam would take in being ready for another romantic relationship.
I can get returning to some earlier themes and seeing what's changed, but that only works if there is a vivid sense of the cumulative experience the characters are carrying. I hope that the desire some fans and some writers have to return to an early season vibe doesn't mean shortchanging the impact of the whole of canon, including s6 and s7, even if TPTB were concerned about some of the directions the later seasons took and the audience reaction to them.
Some of that is very off topic from your comment, just thinking aloud here.
Seconded. Can we pass this motion?
I think that all the outrage expressed in the comments on this article shows how much we really, REALLY need to see Sam's POV so that we, the viewers can understand and sympathise with Sam. I desperately hope that we get it!
On another note, Jared looks soooo hot with his hair like that and the sideburns under control
The last couple of seasons, they've really dummed him down, and now they don't think he can possibly figure out how to research a hunt because he's alone?
As for JPs comments, he hasn't seen very many scripts yet, and he loves to talk about Sam, so maybe he's not yet in the know? I'm clinging to JCs comments about perception and all is not what it seems.
I'm a Sam fan, but I adore Dean, too. I really love the relationship between the boys, and really don't want to see Sam walk away from Dean. I want them being typical brothers - loving and supportive one minute, and beating each other silly the next. But like real brothers, they both need that "nobody's allowed to pick on him but me!" attitude.
I havent read anything to suggest that Sam walks away five minutes after Dean dissapeared and says 'oh well think Ill go get me some normal!'
Personally if he says he tried, didnt even know where to start then just couldnt hunt anymore because he literally had nothing left to fight for. I'll be pretty ok with that.
My guess is he did try, he did hunt maybe only for a few weeks before he walked away but he tried to go on. He just didnt have a reason to carry on. Not to mention the fact that I've read that Sam had a tough time without Dean even if he got used to him not being around by the time we catch up with him in the premier. It all sounds very much like Dean' season 5 ending/season 6 beginning.
My point is, is that it's not natural to ever stop looking when a loved one goes missing. You become less active when the trail goes cold, but it's still on your mind until you get some closure. I don't have a problem with his stopping hunting though. If he's not making progress, he can't think about Dean 24/7. That's too depressing.
I think it's not weird that Sam wanted t o stop hunting. Hunting alone forever, without his brother, well, that's a bit sad. I can't blame him for not wanting that. Saving people he doesn't know is not his duty, imo, not if he does not want (the same way that you don't have to be a firefighter if you don't want to, to make a normal life metaphor).
But not saving, not even trying to save his brother, just because he's alone and has no help? Well, no, thank you. That's the worst thing they could do to Sam's characterization. Now he's lazy and dumb and selfish? Dean is his brother! and Dean has noone else either.
It's such a weird move from the writers I can't even believe what they're doing.
My sole problem is with Sam presumably not beginning a search for Dean. That is rather heartless and cold to me. And the reasons for not searching are so lame and stupid that I just don't know what to say.
I'm not sure why the writers would do this to Sam, and I don't see how they think that is a positive way to write Sam. It's horrible.
Sam needs to search. I can't even wrap my mind around the idea that he won't. I can't wrap my mind around the idea that he just leaves and gets a job somewhere. He would become completely unrootable if that were the case!
Heaven's apparently been gutted. Choosing to not try using a demonic deal, which I doubt Crowley would sign off on, demonstrates growth in Sam's character.
I'm optimistic in how they'll handle this and clearly more generous than some when it comes to judging Sam's (as of yet) unseen actions.
My original reply was meant to be up there in response to:
"Sam needs some reason to either not search or to stop the search early. Missouri could provide that for him." -lala2
I agree that Sam finding out where Dean was and deciding that it was too dangerous to get him out -- the equivalent of why he told Dean not to try to get him out of the Cage -- would be perfectly comprehensible. The fact that this is one of the many, many reasonable and sympathetic options the writers decided to reject is less comprehensible. (That's assuming, of course, that the spoilers we've heard from Jared and Jensen are accurate.) They seem to have gone so far out of their way to avoid any of the obvious options for what Sam does or why he's motivated that I'm left thinking there has to be an unrevealed plot twist, that this is meant to be baffling.
I know, right?
I hope there is an unrevealed plot twist, otherwise, Sam has been turned into a lazy, cowardly bastard! But I fear Ben Edlund, et. al. don't think there is a problem w/Sam abandoning Dean.
Given the history of the show, I'm left puzzled.
They don't need to completely throw open the gates to purgatory like they did then, though. Just sneak one person (or two people, including Cas) out. Single characters were able to break in and out without putting the world at risk. Bobby's girlfriend, Eve. It's still possible it's highly dangerous or can't be managed to get one person out. But they haven't established that yet. And because they haven't established it, they can't have Sam just assume that or it makes him look stupid or uncaring.
If they do establish it, if they have Sam look into it and find out that he cannot get Dean out without risking the world, then fine. Or if they have him think Dean is elsewhere, in heaven or completely wiped out, then fine.
I need Sam to have a reason NOT to look, not just no reason to look. Because looking where there's no reason, trying where there is no hope is their M.O.
Perfectly stated! I couldn't agree more w/you.
To be clear - I'm upset w/the writers for destroying Sam and writing him in a completely OOC fashion. I'm not upset w/Sam. It's not "Sam's" fault the writers understand NOTHING about him!
Are you upset with them destroying Sam in prior seasons? We don't know how they're writing him in season 8. We haven't seen a script yet.
Having no clue where to start isn't good enough.
Being alone isn't good enough.
From what I'm reading, it sounds like Sam doesn't search because he has no one to help him and doesn't know where to begin. That's really weak, IMO. Sam is a seasoned and accomplished hunter. He has a wealth of knowledge about the supernatural so I'm not sure why they're tying his hands and acting as if he suddenly can't research. Yes, he doesn't know Dean's in Purgatory but since there's no body that would be a good place to start.
If Sam were still hallucinating, then I could buy him bring incapable of concentrating enough to get the job done but he isn't. I don't know. For me, it seems like the writers have gone out of their way to push Sam out of hunting when it could have occurred naturally. Just say Sam searched for months, came up with no leads, and then the search died down. That's all. That's what I had assumed happened before I read that comment from Ben Edlund. Actually, I never thought Sam would give up the search completely, and I wasn't sure how much time passed.
To have Sam not search at all for - at present at least to me - no good reason is destroying Sam.
Maybe, it will play out better than it sounds. I don't know.
Not making deals shows growth, Dean has stated repeatedly over the years how others are wrong to make deals. Others I assume would include Sam.
Not to mention Sam is likely to have zero options when it comes to any kind of help from a higher being. They seem to have used up all ther favours. Evn Dean hasnt been able to save Sam from hell/death without the help of a angel or death or a crossroads demon.
I'm not feeling nearly as nervous about it as I was on the weekend. I'm hoping they just might have something up their collective sleeves.
Eternal optimist? Maybe. I've certainly resolved to reserve judgement.
To be honest from what I remember Eve's ritual involved putting a soul into an unwilling human sacrifice (not the same as getting a flesh & bone Dean out of P) and there was a high body count involved with Dr Visyak (?). I also believe that they summoned a ghost/soul rather than her in a fully monstrous form. Not to mention that it wasn't her specifically that they went looking for. In fact every interaction I can think of where Purgatory is involved has always been about the movement of souls not people and rarely with a specific person in mind. When the characters were in Heaven or Hell their fleshy bodies were on Earth with the only exception being Sam's swan dive into the cage.
I guess I don't see an inherent characterisation problem with Sam realising or accepting that cracking Purgatory is a 'non starter' because by all accounts it is.
*please turn up in the right place*
And therein lies the problem for me!
We have spoilers that strongly imply that Sam is too incompetent to even begin researching what happened to Dean so he does nothing!
That is an insult to Sam, IMO. Last I checked, he wasn't an idiot or a novice hunter.
I've got a spoiler summary up on our Spoiler Page. Perhaps things won't seem so gloomy if you read it all together. It includes stuff from these interviews and the panel. I wouldn't read so much into one interview.
That's the word that caught my eye. I was shocked when I first read that because I know Sam Winchester would look for his brother. There's no way he wouldn't even try.
For me, unfortunately, Jared's interview just seemed to support this idea that Sam doesn't try to find Dean, that Sam immediately assumes Dean's dead and moved on with his life. Again, that's troublesome to me. That kind of kills the brotherhood for me.
I wish I had more positive thoughts but I can't move past Ben's use of the word "try." How could Sam not even try? Why would the writers think that would be okay? And I know Sam's alone but are they really saying he needs Dean or Bobby or Garth to research into something? Since when? Sam is a smart guy. I would think he'd know what to look into. And It's not even like Sam goes into a deep depression. He gets a dog and a girlfriend and is happy. Jared doesn't make it seem like Sam's overcome any depression; it's like Sam just resigned himself to Dean being gone and went about his life. I'd be perfectly fine with that if there were any indication that Sam had searched for Dean.
Like I said, I'm taking BE's words at face value and assume Sam didn't try to look for Dean. To me, that goes against the premise if the show as well as everything I know about Sam Winchester. I hope there is more to the story. I hope BE and Jared lied about Sam's actions after Dean's death. But I'm not holding my breath.
I hope that explains my position a bit.
I'd think that would be an odd thing to be offering as a spoiler if that confrontation ends immediately with Sam saying "But I did look for you, I just couldn't find you," so either it's true that Sam didn't look, or there's some reason why Sam can't tell Dean that or how he did look. Which I'm willing to hope for -- it seems unlikely that the Sam flashbacks are purely a character study with no plot twist or connection to Dean's plot. When Sam's characterization seemed inexplicable in the s6 spoilers, it turned out to be a clue, not an error.
Dean has his body and therefore wouldn't need a sacrificed body to inhabit or possess. This is a unique case which they haven't done much research on, don't have much info on. They also haven't done much research on pulling out specific souls. They've never had a reason to research those at all. So if Sam gives up right off the bat, that's a whole bunch of possible things that might have worked that he didn't even consider. If they want to establish that people can't be pulled out of purgatory w/o repercussions, that would be fine. But they need to actually show that. They haven't established it yet. And on a show that routinely has the characters defy all logic and reasonable expectation, they do need to show them eliminating every possibility.
Cracking hell seemed like a non-starter before angels showed up, same with cracking the cage until Dean decided Death needed to be called in. But we still needed to see Sam try to make a deal, see Dean stock up on reading material. Show them look into it and not find anything and I'll assume they considered everything I did and more and I accept whatever conclusion they come to. Show them jump to conclusions, and I assume they just didn't try hard enough.
That's Pilot!Sam. Seven seasons (and 9 years, I assume) have passed since. Ignoring all the progression he's made is not really good.
But I think there's more to it. The idea of Sam wanting to be out of the hunter life is true on the surface, but there's been lots of hints of that not being 100% true. He even said he never really fitted in the normal world, even during his Stanford years, and lots of times he accepted to be a 'freak', gave Dean reasons to keep hunting when Dean was depressed, said it was wrong when he left Dean in the past, etc.
My opinion is that his feeling about the life he's living are mixed.
I understand if he doesn't want to keep hunting alone, if Dean's not there, but I don't think he hated every moment of it or anything.
Yes, Hades. This is what I thought that Sam who is after 8 long years evolve to and it's beautiful if you said it like that. I fell in love with this Sam. Although we never seen Sam said this exact words on screen but I'd like to believe that he did feel this. It would be great if they could make Sam voiced his feelings and what's on his mind like exactly what you said. Put it in dialogue or something, make it a written hard proof. We never get that, yeah?
But then these spoilers just baffled me... they insinuated that Sam just didn't give a damn.
Actually this is what I questioned in another board with Jensen's interview. I'm not bashing Sam and I love Sam. I want to continue love Sam. From previous seasons Sam's drive to hunt was other outer reason. Whether it's Dean or vengeance, initially, but when he was sucked in, he did it all out. Reluctant at first but we cannot deny his passion in helping others. Someone said that Sam was a reluctant Hero (i think it's bamboo24 but I could be wrong) and I agree because he continued struggling with what he wanted and what his heart screamed at him to do the right thing.
But now after 7 seasons I thought he finally get it. That he had responsibility to the innocents. Because he knew what's out there. Would he not feel guilty if he left people to die. If he could do something to help people the Sam that I know, after 7 seasons long experiences would try to help. He would try to look for Dean or at least find any info of his brother's where about. If he's really dead and in Heaven.
Does someone tell him that Dean was in Heaven? I wonder.
If what you said is true and that's the Sam that the writers wanted to portray then I'll be disappointed in Sam. It's sad, really. That he really wanted to get out of hunting life and finally now that Dean's gone and everyone's gone he finally able to move on guilt free because Jared's words, "He's not leaving anyone behind"
Yeah, Sam your brother's who-knows-where right now. People don't just disappear and considering the situation don't you find it suspicious that Dick was laughing like that and Dean just disappear with him. Dick could just took Dean away or Crowley did. Could you at least try to make sure if Dean really dead and in Heaven. there are a bunch of good psychics in Lily dale that could summon Ash from heaven.
See, there are many ways to do it. I get it that the writers wrote Sam that way previous seasons and Sam's drive to hunt was vague. Dean was the one who get to voiced his opinion why he hunted, and because of his monologues in some episodes makes me sympathetic at him despite his shortcomings. Sam never got to voice his reason to hunt. All this years, why would you hunt Sam? I can see that you passionate about helping people and can relate to victims best. You are always shown to hunt for a reason, vengeance, Dean's deal, killing YED, Lilith, Apocalypse. Now, that there's no Dean, no Bobby, no one, you want to quit while you still can?
Am i should be led to believe that this is the real Sam? Finally after no one else sucking him into the hunting world, no vengeance, no Dean, he just shrugged it off and to doing that means shrugging Dean off.
How could Sam sleep at night knowing that people are dying? Knowing that Leviathans are out there and they are hungry? even more savage now that Dick is gone?
I thought now that there's no outer reason to drag Sam into hunting that we would finally see Sam who really hunted because he wanted to and because that's what's right to do, doing what's right over what's easy, because he wanted to know where Dean was and that he did not give up.
I hope they give Sam character justice and giving a voice to his reasoning. If the writers really goes the way that you said and it makes perfect sense for the writers that Sam would get out of hunting while he can. Just like that because he really wanted out ever since a long time. (I believe that's what Jared alluded above? correct me if I'm wrong) Then, I don't like that Sam.
Is this the real Sam according to the writers? Then I'm not surprised there are Sam bashing out there. It's very easy to love Dean because he got to voice what's in his head and made us/me see his side of the story.
I'm not trying to stir a fight I'm just mostly baffled.
Lets ask Dean how he could sleep at night in Lisa's bed while people were dying and there were still monsters out there to be hunted?
Besides wouldnt Crowley and the demons be taking care of the left over Leviathan problem? They dont seem to be a threat in season 8 from what we know, that storyline is done. Why would Sam need to clean up that mess when its already been taken care of? As for saving people? There are other hunters out there, Dean obviously relied on them to take care of any issues while he took a year out for normal. He seemed quite ok leaving Cas and Bobby out there to clean up the aftermath of the almost apocolypse so why cant Sam let other hunters take care of the hunting while he tries for normal this time?
Its not one rule for Dean and another for Dean. This seems very much like the same situation to me. The only difference Dean knew Sam was in the cage, Sam apparently doesn't know where Dean is? Had we only been told that Dick would be killed when stabbed with the bone and seen everyone disappear at the end of the finale and not seen Dean alive and in Purgatory how many fans would have possibly assumed him dead and gone too? I think a lot of fans don't realise that we are actually probably more in the know in this circumstance than Sam is.
If people come out of the summer's major publicity event thinking not "I'm excited to watch this" but "I really, really hope that this isn't going to be as bad as it seems," it's fair to say that the showrunner has let us down, either in the content of his vision (if the impression people are getting from spoilers is accurate) or in his ability to sell it through the team he has infused with it. It's not fair to judge the finished product until we have a chance to see it, but it is fair to judge the success or failure of the Comic Con message at getting people to want to tune into the finished product.
Of course, many of the spoilers that people are finding most saddening are not coming directly from Carver. But just as he will be judged for his showrunning by the shape of the overall season, not just by the episodes he himself writes, so he is being judged now for the shape of the overall Comic Con message, not just for the parts conveyed by his own words.
If it happens to be, and it actually is as bad for Sam as it sounds, I'll walk away for good, but I'm not fooling myself: I'll watch season 8, at least for a while.
So I think they did a good job after all...
Great post!
Marketing is an important thing for the show. If the spoilers ended up not true then they should not spill it. Fans are angry for the fact that Sam did not look for Dean. They should've known that there would be outrage from fans. If it's not true then they should withhold it.
If it's true (and I am thinking why would they said something that's not true) and there's a reason for Sam not to look for Dean but whatever it was still yet to be determined, they still should withhold it. Because they don't want to loose the fans, right? They should just said that there's a valid reason for Sam not to look for Dean, please just stay tuned. Instead of saying Sam met a doctor, get a dog and we finally get to see how Sam evolve without Dean. Without even hinting that Sam DID try to find Dean.
Now, if what Jared implied is true then, I guess they just wanna let the bad news out of the way and see how many fans left. That's not a good marketing move IMO.
You keep fans interested and talking about the show during hiatus, create expectation.
And if there's something juicy, like, please, please, a reason behind Sam's actions, they won't tell now, because that would ruin the whole season.
They throw you spoilers, but not the meaty part (judging past experiences), and that's what keeps me midly optimistic (midly because I'm not happy at the chance of those spoilers being the real thig): there must be something bigger than what they've said.
I'm also feeling more positive than I was when I first read the Comic Con spoilers. I liked what Alice had to say about the positive vibes from everyone in the room at Comic Con. That was good to hear.
I loved the spoilers we got about Dean. I'm looking forward to seeing S8 Dean. It sounds like the Dean I've been missing will be back on my telly screen.
I really love that Sam looks to be getting an emotional arc this year. Usually I'm not a fan of romance storylines on any show as I find them boring, but a relationship storyline should give us Sam POV and insight. Which will be fantastic.
Plus I've read that he has a dog. Fingers crossed that spoiler is correct. I love the idea of Sam having a dog.
But, like many posters here and elsewhere in the fandom, it's the Sam spoilers about Sam not even trying to find Dean that have me really struggling.
Also, JP and JA don't know much of what is ahead yet as they've only seen a few scripts so I've resolved to stop (well... try to stop) fretting over JP's interview.
Another comment from JC that I read elsewhere and one that I liked very much was "For me, the main attraction to the story has always been the emotional connection between the boys. " The connection between the brothers is the main attraction for me also, for me it's the very heart of the show. I felt this heart was missing somewhat last season and hopefully now it will be back. I'm very happy that the mytharc is being dialled back a smidgen and there's going to be more focus on the brothers' emotional worlds/development.
Also I do think JC writes Sam (and Dean) fantastically well. To my mind he knows and understands these characters perfectly. MS, AVSNC, PONR were fabulous episodes and in each Sam was written beautifully. So, all in all, despite still being very unnerved by some of the Sam stuff, right now I'm (slightly) more excited than worried. Although tomorrow I'll probably be stressed out again and back to biting my nails and yelling at the dog.
I also think we'll suffer and scream at the screen a lot haha, but I really hope Carver remembers how things should be done
I may be repeating much of what's already been said here, but I felt the need to weigh in, so bear with me a little.
I'm not trying to invalidate your reaction to this info, but to me, there's nothing here that implies Sam doesn't look for Dean at all. We don't know that that's what happens. Yes, Ben Edlund said that Sam didn't even try, but I do believe that was more just Dean's perception of what happened. After all, how does he even know what Sam did, unless Sam specifically told him? Also, I don't think that Sam just decides he's going out to live a normal life, maybe he just makes the decision to quit hunting. To me, that doesn't necessarily mean he's thinks it's time to go out and get a girlfriend and a dog. Oh, and someone said, I think further up, that Sam hits a dog with his car and that's how he meets Amelia. Unless there's info I missed, no one knows what he was doing when he ran into said dog, and met said vet.
Also, Jared said that he was no longer with Amelia when the season starts, so it doesn't look like his foray into normal turned out so well. And Jeremy Carver indicated that the boys come together in the first episode in pursuit of that item they're apparently going to be questing for, so that's, to me, also an indication that Sam didn't entirely turn his back on the hunt, or his brother.
As I said, thing is, we just don't know. There's more going on here than what these spoilers point to.
Anyway, I understand where you're coming from -this is just my two cents
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