Jensen Ackles Interview - Supernatural at Comic-Con 2012 Press Room
Sunday, 15 July 2012 20:03 | Last Updated on Tuesday, 17 July 2012 23:49 | Written by Alice Jester | 
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At the press roundtables, we got roughly six or seven minutes with each of the panelists and hear their take on the upcoming season 8. Out of everyone, Jensen seemed to be spilling the most information. We had talked to him third, right after hearing Mark Sheppard and Misha Collins just offer cute teases with no information (don't get me wrong, they were still fun to chat with).
I'll issues a spoiler warning now! First is the video, and below is a summary for those that don't have Youtube friendly access at work (cough me cough).
His first words: “I feel like I didn’t answer a thing, probably because we don’t know anything.”
The episode he’s directing, which will be episode three or four, is a standalone. It’s going to be a flashback episode on what Sam was doing while Dean was away.
There are going to be some new characters introduced. “There’s going to be a character that gets Dean out. Because “I need you and you need me. Separated we can’t get out but together we can get out.” Obviously that character, he doesn’t go away right away and Dean is indebted to him and of course he’s not a good guy. That is a character that gets introduced in the first episode.” It is a guy, but he won’t give the name.
“Because maybe there’s things that Dean hidden (he) doesn’t want to tell Sam that happened Purgatory, much like his experience in Hell when the floodgates that opened up that one time and he explained what it was like in Hell.”
Why did Dean have such a hard time forgiving Cas when he forgave Sam for such a similar betrayal. Jensen had an easier answer for that. “I think the easy answer is Blood. I think the easy answer is family.” “I think the short answer is it is his brother. There might be grudges held between them but at the end of the day, that’s the closest that he has to a companion and he has had for many years.”
He also thinks that Castiel being an angel makes it harder for Dean to relate, just like it’s hard for Dean to relate to a monster. “His brother is flesh and blood, it’s tangible.”
He gave some good information on the mythology coming up. “We’re dealing with some Mayan Gods. A deal was made back in the Mayan days and it’s proving to affect a few different people in modern day. They are removing people’s organs to use for themselves and use for some sacrifices. Of course Dean doesn’t like that, so he rallies Sam. Sam is more focused on getting Kevin back. Dean is like, look fine, great, but we haven’t found him, we can’t ignore this because this is what we do. So they go off and try to save some people.
For all the latest Supernatural info and article links, follow The Winchester Family Business on Twitter at @WinFamBusiness
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Comments
Also, while Jensen was talking about Castiel I just happened to notice Misha walking behind him and sitting a table, also behind him.:D
The spoilers I have read have me seeing red and this just adds to the fire.
Sam isn't important, again. Any episode focusing on him is a standalone that needn't be counted.
Sam's characterization makes no sense if what we've heard today is true. It's like throwing several seasons of character development to the wc.
Sorry, I'm slightly mad at this.
I kind of like the idea of Dean making a deal with a 'bad guy', though. So, on Dean's part I'm okay, but Sam's bits make me sad.
I am so shocked and upset by what I read today that I don't even know what to say. If it's true (and it probably is) then Sam's character is about to be completely assassinated and obliterated. Why? I have no clue.
I guess these writers just don't care how Sam looks or what happens to him. It's really horrible! And very disheartening. Honestly, I may not even watch if those spoilers come to fruition.
I'm sorry, but I don't want my Sammy treated like this :( will hurt too much.
Anyway, what the hell are they thinking? Why would they? And I wonder if they've kept what Sam has done all these past seasons in mind, because looks like they didn't.
Agh.
No, really. I think I'll stick to seasons 1-5, and forget the rest even exist.
After reading those spoilers, I honestly thought, "Why do the writers hate Sam? Why?" I'm bi-bro, but Dean has NEVER been thrown under the bus like this. This will be the SECOND time Sam just screws over Dean. Thanks, Writers . . . . that's just what I wanted to see again!
Sam doesn't save Dean. Sam is happy that Dean is dead. The heart of the show is dying.
Why in the world would they write it that way? Why are there tire marks on Sam's freakin' back?
I'm honestly at a loss as to why Sam is hated by the writers and why he can't be shown caring about Dean like Dean is shown caring about him. The show is supposed to be about brothers who would die for each other . . . . I guess that's no longer the case!
That being said though, I STILL do not understand why so many Sam fans, again of which I am one, still believe Sam's been shafted. Yes, his Lucifer hallucination breakdown certainly was not given the weight and attention it deserved, but then neither did Dean's laughable excuse for a story arc.
Last season sucked for both boys. BUT; in the seasons before that, the writers have ALWAYS given Jared the juiciest story arcs and much more opportunities to showcase his acting skills, which he did wonderfully. He hasn't been shown to be the 'bad brother' to me, he's always been shown to be the smarter, better, more capable and more important one. So I still can't understand what you guys are so angry about. I think Dean fans have alot more to be frustrated about. He almost NEVER anything juicy, and whenever he actually is supposed to be the hero, in the end they turn around and give it to Sam. I would just like to have the interesting story arcs and acting opportunities to be meted out equally.
There is no evidence that Sam didnt look at all and there is no eveidence that he wasnt sad about loosing his brother again. Jared said Sam grieved and he had a hard time without Dean, he isnt with Amelia when the season starts so it wasnt all sunshine and roses and picnics with his replacment family. If Sam turns around and says 'I looked, I didnt even know where to start' I think that will be fair.
To tell you the truth I'm glad Sam has gone after something for himself, I'm glad he hasnt fallen into the same old Winchester pattern and I think he deserves to have the chance at normal. This was the idea oppertunity given that he literally had nobody left to fight for, he was completly alone. I'm suprised he had the will to get up every morning and live let alone fight and endless fight or a seemingly lost cause.
Well done Sam.
I guess this is how every Sam fan feels now,and, as much as saying this hurts, I hope the ratings reflect how annoyed we are.
http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/news/64-rules/14338-we-are-a-happy-site-but-there-are-rules.html
It's not that sam has to be the hero all the time. It's that I want the writers to follow up the characterization they built up, and, if possible, not to throw shit at one of the main characters to make him look like the worst brother.
And above all, it's bad writing, because Sam has been shown to be good, caring, and selfless. He said he was the less important, that his pain and his hallucinations were nothing compared to what everyone else had.
I can't see that Sam, from last season, in this Sam that sees his brother as a burden.
What they DID insinuate was that Sam was unaware that Dean was in Purgatory (Crowley never told him where he was, just that Dick was dead and God weapons have a big recoil), had no leads on Dean's whereabouts, was left totally alone, and likely believed Dean was dead.
There is no character assassination going on here, rather, Carver is aiming for character development. I was actually heartened by how he described the emotional journey he wants to take brothers on, allowing BOTH to grow and have new experiences.
Also - I think people are jumping to conclusions. Consider how many times the actors said they don't know anything because they've only worked with one script. The rest of the info came from vague descriptions of general story arc ideas that may or may not play out like they say. I agree with Luciano - you should give it a chance.
I'm more of a Dean fan myself, and aside from S4, I think Sam has been shown to be courageous many times, caring, thoughtful, loyal, and incredibly strong of heart. Even in S4, Sam did what he did with good intentions. He and Dean have both made mistakes. They're flawed heros. Knights in tarnished armor. But that's what makes them watchable.
However it's frankly illogical to think that the ones who've created these characters and put so much time and energy into the show don't care how they look or what happens to them. It's one thing to criticize something you've seen already, but I just don't understand the incredibly narrow-minded, pessimistic reactions to these spoilers so early in the game.
I for one, am excited about the possibilities and where Carver takes the show!
“Dean will feel slightly resentful that Sam didn’t try to find him, according to Edlund. Dean will essentially ask “‘why didn’t you look [for me]? We had a tacit agreement that we always look [even if we said we wouldn’t]’.” Padalecki also said that Dean will question how Sam just cut himself out of a life of hunting. Wasn’t he paying attention to the strange things happening around the country? For his part, Sam will explain that he knew there were other hunters out there to take care of things and he chose to do this with his life instead.”
Okay. Maybe my view is overly negative, but that comment, to me, strongly implies that Sam doesn't even try to look for Dean. I hope I'm wrong, but Jared's comments (didn't watch the videos but just read the recaps) seem to confirm this idea that Sam just washed his hands of the situation and went on w/this life.
Ben could have used the words "gave up," but he didn't. He said Dean resents Sam for not trying to find him. Jared, as far as I know, has not disputed that; his comment only reinforce this idea that Sam did nothing but twiddle his thumbs while Dean was somewhere suffering.
I have a major problem w/the writers portraying Sam in this manner as I don't think it is true to the character. I wouldn't like to hear this about Dean either. They have to come up w/a real good reason why Sam doesn't even try to find Dean, and I don't believe they can.
There's no reason he wouldn't look.
I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't know w/this show. I don't have much faith after Season 7.
My point is - give the writers a chance. We have a new showrunner, and I have faith that S8 will be different from S7. Better, even. Carver seems tapped in to the emotional undercurrents of the brothers' relationships with themselves and the world, and I think that's great.
Have a little faith! :)
It's hard, Bamboo! Haha! These spoilers really threw me for a loop, and Season 7 left a really bad taste in my mouth. For now, I like to assume the absolute worst possible scenario so I'm not greatly disappointed when it pans out or I can be pleasantly surprised if it's better than I thought!
I wish I had faith in JC but I don't . . . . not yet anyways!
I am happy for those who are feeling positive about the show! I wish I could too!
That's the only rational thing I can think of.
I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you.
Turned out there was a plot driven reason both for Sam's actions and for Jared not giving the real reason for Sam's seeming indifference.
So I think we need to wait and see what other shoe drops before getting upset.
Of all of it -- the retread of a Lisa-type scenario with Sam & Amelia is the part I find the most worrisome -- mostly because its boring as all hell if Sam is 'happy' in the non-hunting life.
Except for the Sam/Amelia part. I'm very curious and intrigued and want to see how Sam lives a normal life...
And yeah, another Lisa-style scenario doesn't make me very happy. It's a bit repetitive.
Jared said that Sam always wanted to get out of the hunting life ever since a very long time. (The pilot) And I remember the season finale of S6 that the reason Sam was willing to suffer through his Hell memories because 'He couldn't let his Brother out there alone' Essentially, Sam hated hunting and wanted to have a normal life but because Dean's there he gave up his dream to accompany Dean? I don't think Sam's that shallow.
I really really hope above all hope that there is a plot driven reason for Sam to be just "happy" in the non-hunting life. Does he actually glad that Dean died/gone/disappear so that finally he could live his dream and normal life? What a cruel character to write!
Perhaps Sam was having a major break down after the season finale, perhaps the Lucifer memories return and he was half crazy or just batshit crazy. I mean no stone number 1 (They couldn't disregard that, right?) How can Sam has a will to live after that ? How powerful is this Dr. Amelia compared to Dean? Compared to the stone no. 1?
I hope Jared is just teasing and misleading there. If it happens according to what Jared said in the Interview I'd gladly take S4 arc than this and I very dislike S4 Sam.
Another thing I fear is that this is the backflip of S4. Different flavor, but actually similar in Plot and theme.
I am loving every single tidbit of info we are getting out of CC, and thank you for posting this video. Though now October seems even more impossibly far away!
However, I'm very disturbed by some of the comments made by fellow posters. Chill and calm down. I think that some are getting way too upset before we even see the end product. They've only just begun to shoot and it hasn't even gone down to post production for editing, etc. Who knows what it will look like until they have the finish product... Plus we all want to see what Sam is doing while Dean is in Purgatory, right? I know that I do...I think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions too early. How about waiting for the season premier before drawing them??? Anyway, I'm sure they're going to do a standalone episode on Dean showing his activities, too and I know that I want to see that too.
Also, another point...a standalone episode would be easier for Jensen to direct. That way he can focus on his directorial task and not on his acting part. He seems to shine on these type of episodes. Plus I like his spin on Jared's character. I think he adds something that he and Jared both know about Sam from their point of view.
I simply cannot wait, and am very hopeful and excited to see what these teeny, tiny, miniscule tidbits of information turn out to be. :)
Also, I think people are misunderstanding, thinking that this episode is all we'll see of Sam's time apart from Dean. I think it'll be a lot more than just one episode. I also read that Dean's presence in this ep (the one he's directing) is larger than the last two he did, and he's been doing scenes as Dean every day of shooting. I'm just psyched. :) I feel like season 8 will be truly wonderful!
Also, I agree about Jensen. I haven't seen such a smile on his face or excitement in his voice for quite a while. Past interviews seemed to be so serious and heavy. He really seems to be enjoying himself. His excitement is rubbing off on me!!!!
You're so right about Jensen. He did look so unhappy last year. I don't think that either one of them liked the direction of the show, but being the professionals that they are, they backed the writers and were probably hoping for the best. However this year, I've seen a lot more smiling and joking around...almost giddy!!! I know that I'm excited about the new Season. I mean they've got Carver/Edlund/Thompson as part of the writing crew. That's a fantastic, talented bunch of men.
Also, I didn't realize that Singer's wife was one of the writers on the show. I hope that her (& her partners) episodes get more in line. I do like that they seem to be the only ones writing about relationships. I just want more "meat" to the scripts! (If you know what I mean)
CYA in Vegas!!!
him! And Jared has ALWAYS gotten the meatier acting assignments!
I love Sam and I certainly don't want to start fan wars and one vs the other, but it sounds to me like a lot of you guys think that if EVERYTHING doesn't revolve around Sam being the hero, that you think he's getting a raw deal! Come on, HE'S the one getting a real romance! Please tell me how Dean has been treated so darned much better than Sam?
Usually they tell him how weak he is, not as good a hunter as Sam, not as smart, parents loved Sam the most, etc. And even though DEAN was the one who was supposed to stop Lucifer, they turned it around and and gave THAT to Sam also! He's ALWAYS the hero in the end! And that's ok with me, because again I LOVE SAM, I just don't get where some of you guys think that it HIM that get crapped on! In my opinion, you guys don't have that much to complain about!
Sorry to the moderators, I really tried not to do this, but these comments just got to me. I will try to refrain from this in the future.
That is NOT someone I can root for, and I love Sam. He's getting "bussed" as we say in the soap opera viewing world or shafted! It's character assassination - plain and simple. Sam wouldn't just shrug his shoulders after Dean disappeared right before his eyes, and it's insulting for them to write him in that manner.
I come on here for the pleasure of discussing my favourite show and have learned to sift through the wanking ones.
Sorry to Alice also, and I hope I haven't broken any rules. It's just the way I cope with the perennial nay-sayers. I don't get into the wars as I'm too old for that nonsense and need to keep the blood pressure in check.
Love Dean and Sam and the others and enjoy the show immensely and love to read all the interviews pre-season. If I didn't, I wouldn't be commenting here.
And thank you so much Alice for getting all this lovely stuff from the Comicon and other cons.
From the shallow end of the pool, didn't both the guys look lovely? Yum
Alice, I’m sorry that you had to edit a comment of mine. I genuinely never thought the day would come when that would have to happen and I’m devastated and ashamed that it did. Rest assured it will not happen again.
Just wanted to say that you should not feel so bad, everyone lets their emotions get the better of them sometimes. Your posts are some of the most articulate, funny, insightful on this site. I hope you will not be discouraged from commenting. This site would not be the same. Nor would it be the same without many others including:
Emmau,Kelly,Misty,Percysowner,l ala2,Pentadactyl,Bevie,anonymou sN,Mel and so many more. You all are why I visit this site.
This violates many rules. "Be nice," "Show respect," "No Sam vs. Dean or Jensen vs. Jared," "Don't put words into people's mouths," and "Have respect for what we value on this site."
Simmer down please. Don't take everything so personally.
In Season 6 Sam was written to be downright cruel but then we're shown that was because he was soulless.
Season 4, well, he was written almost like a monster, sucking blood and all, doing questionable things. Although, he was having a dilemma about it.
I'm beginning to suspect that that was what the writers' view of Sam. That Sam was created like that and what we've seen for all this time (at least since S4) was the real Sam.
One of the commenter here said that perhaps deep down inside Sam was a real jerk and he was just pretending to be nice. Because Sam without a soul was a jerk.
What Dean said in Repo Man about a psyco was spot on. They were just crazy people who pretend to be sane.
Does this apply to Sam too? That he was basically a jerk but trying to be a good person but deep down he was, well ... I couldn't even find a word.
Dean was having a dilemma in WIAWSNB. Why was it his job to save those people, why him. And in Sam Interrupted he finally admitted "Because there's no one else' Even 3 seasons later he was still having that kind of dilemma. In his heart, very deep down Dean was a hero material. Because He was written like that.
Sam was written differently. ALways wanting to get out of hunting, having anger management issue. Sam was written as a brother who trusted a demon over his own brother. He was written to be the one who is not family oriented kinda guy. He was kinda arrogant.
It seemed the one that sucked Sam into hunting was Dean. He was fine in the pilot. Living happily away from his family with more than 2 years incommunicado. Then, Dean came and he was sucked back right in driven by vengeance to kill YED. Season Three driven by Dean's deal. S4 driven by (again) vengeance to kill Lilith (even though Dean was right beside him. Still baffled about that). S5 he was driven by guilt, making up to his brother, cleaning up his mess. S6 he was soulless and soulless Sam enjoyed hunting (weird) and in the end he was driven (again) by Dean. Because Dean was out there and he couldn't let his brother alone.
S7... I don't even know what drove Sam to hunt S7. Hell memories? naah ... Leviathan? ... naah ... Leviathan was still at large at the end of last season and they should be at large too next season but from the interview, Sam was stated choosing out of hunting life and living normal life. He let other hunters take care of them.
Conclusion, even in S7 Sam hunts because of Dean, because Cas made a mess and they were the one who had to clean it. Dean was tired of hunting in the beginning of the season. Now that Dean is not there. Nothing drives Sam to hunt. If there's no Dean in S7, I believe Sam would not want to hunt. He would let the Leviathan roamed free. His word "because i couldn't let my brother alone out there"
So, another conclusion, because Dean was gone finally Sam could be free to live his life just like he wanted for a very long time. Dick Roman exploded taking Dean with him. No vengeance drives Sam because the bad guy too was dead. Crowley took Kevin but Kevin was not his brother. Sam always driven by vengeance just like John. Now, there's no one to kill. He could summon Crowley but Crowley was not the one who killed Dean. Sam just assumed that Dean went poof along with Dick due to the God's weapon.
Sam was written like that, it's his character. I wish he was written differently but I'm beginning to suspect that Sam was created like that. That what makes the fan upset.
I thought anyone without their soul would be a jerk...
also i had always thought the one who sucked Sam back into hunting was Azazel or more specifically Jess's death.
Problem is not that they have showed always Sam leaving but that it has been portrayed that Sam leaving is always bad...
So, you see the problem here, right? If they always portray that Sam leaving was bad then why portray him leaving at all?
Can the writers please write a Sam that not leaving? (because they always portray him bad anyway?) Why can't they write Sam who is devoted to finding Dean? I mean, I know everyone he knows are dead but not everyone. Missouri is still out there, I assume she's still out there. Sam hold John's journal. He had vast connections through that journal. It was in Dean's belonging but Sam can rummage thru Dean's bag. From those contacts he can spread out his web. But no. He Chooses to give in, give up, got a girl, had a dog. I hope Jared really doesn't know anything much yet about his character because what he let out is not sympathetic to Sam's character.
I wish we/I was shown Sam's effort despite how moot it be at least he tried.
I was a bit upset when S6 aired and we were not shown Dean's effort in finding Sam but at least he gave us dialogue. Dean said he had tried to look, bought many books, he had nightmares, he drank a lot, he's basically miserable. Although, we were shown from clips that he lives a happy domestic lives with Lisa and Ben. At least we got confirmation from his dialogue that he DID look.
I really hope that Sam DID look and we are being shown the scene, clips, flashback, whatev... because the spoilers only implied he does nothing.
also i had always thought the one who sucked Sam back into hunting was Azazel or more specifically Jess's death.
Yes, you're right. What I mean from my comment above is that Sam always need a reason to hunt. S1 and 2 was Azazel, vengeance. When Azazel died at AHBL2, there was Dean's deal that drove him to hunt while finding answer, S4 again vengeance, S5 fixing his mess (his and Dean's mess by starting the Apocalypse) S6 Soulless Sam loved hunting and the later half season because Dean insist on resouling him.
S7 because of Dean and he couldn't leave his brother out there alone. This arises a question that would Sam not want to hunt without Dean? Sam never hunt alone (soulless Sam's an exception). Sam never hunt just for a reason helping others. He always need a reason, a drive to make him hunt. Half of it vengeance and half of it Dean.
Sam always wanted out. Always. Jared said he always wanted out for a very long time.
So, it seems now that Dean's gone he took a deep relieve breath ... oh, finally I can live my life. From the interview and spoilers that said Sam let other hunters do the hunting Job imply that Sam never like hunting. He does not want to help people, save people. He would happily let other hunters do that. Please tell me that that is not a disheartened character. I love Sam but why was he being written like that?
Has the writing for Sam been great? No. Did they do an awful job with his cage/hallucination story(amoung others)? Yes. But I never thought less of the character. My heart has and continues to go out to Sam. And Dean.
ANYONE who didn't have a soul would be a jerk. Good gawd, can you picture how Dean would be without a soul? He'd be even worse than Sam was, IMO. Soulless Sam was just an empty shell with memories and intellect. What made Sam SAM wasn't there. Soulless Sam wasn't really Sam. That was the whole point.
Quote:
I think it's a matter of perception, really.
I don't think Sam's desire to quit hunting was portrayed as "bad" - it was just something that, for a long time, Dean didn't understand or agree with. But then it flipped circa S4-S5, and Dean became the weary one. It was a role-reversal, that's all. Sam chose a demon over Dean and Dean, in many more subtle ways, chose an angel over Sam. Likewise, the Sam-drinks-demon-blood story arc ran simultaneously with the Dean-tortured-souls-in-hell story arc. Sam might have set Lucifer free, but Dean broke the first seal. Both were manipulated into doing those things and put through the ringer. Their intentions were good, though. Dean went to hell for Sam. Sam drank the demon blood (initially) for Dean's sake. Both sacrificed a bit of their humanity for those decisions.
Sam has been through a lot, and he has personality flaws. Perhaps he's prone to anger, pride, lust for power, and stubbornness. As the younger brother, it also makes sense that he's easily led. But he's also has a long history of being very intelligent, gentle, compassionate, tolerant, and understanding. His character is well-rounded. He has temptations and weaknesses just like a real person - because that's what makes a good character.
Similarly, Dean has personality flaws out the wazzoo. He's definitely prone to violence - likes it, in fact, alcoholism, lying, judgmental-ism, womanizing, nearsightedness, faithlessness, etc. But his strengths happen to be loyalty, long-suffering, care-taking, and leadership. Again, strengths and weaknesses.
Now between the two of them, looking at it objectively, I'd say it's pretty balanced. Their experiences have not been the same, nor have their desires. But in terms of characterization, they're equally flawed. One's weaknesses are the other's strengths. That's what makes them such successful hunters...well, that and a lot of good luck! :)
I bet there's a proper psychological term for these alternative ways, but Gawd knows, I don't know it.
Sam -- perhaps because he's younger, and he's always going to be the youngest -- tends to absolutes more. It seems to me anyway. I keep thinking of his fear early on that he might be dark or demonic. 'What if that's what I am?' It drew him like a flame. He aways seems to get drawn to the strongest element in his life at that time, whatever it is: the desire for independence from a father who commands obedience; the fear of (or the temptation into) darkness: loyalty to his brother: desire for a clear and happy life... He's one thing. Then another thing. Then another. And the one thing pushes out the other potentials he has. Sam goes to college and his brother and father hear nothing of him. In a way, that model where his soul goes behind a wall is a good description of the habitual way he lives so categorically out of the dominant urge of the moment. Perhaps this comes too from his more intellectual approach to problems -- he's more mentally rigorous than Dean. Contradictions are inadmissible.
Dean by contrast (I say with admiration and respect) is a big sloppy mess.
But he does compartmentalize a lot; even when he is many things at once, he has a tendency to separate into different selves. Even his hell trauma gets externalized internally into a hallucinated Lucifer. It's not that Sam is a simple one thing at a time guy, it's more that when he is many things at a time they tend to remain distinct, to the point where his separation into different selves in 6.22 is not a bad representation of what Sam is like all the time.
And Sam is more linear about his emotions than Dean. He has huge anger issues, but he's also capable of working through anger and then letting it go, so that his feelings for John, for instance, went from conflict to eventual resolution, whereas Dean is still much more a mess of feelings about the legacy of his childhood, more inclined to forgive and resent simultaneously rather than going straight through from one to the other. And when Dean does dark things it's often through a kind of mixing up of himself and others: he wiped Lisa and Ben's memories, violated their autonomy, in a kind of quasi-suicidal gesture, guiltily eliminating himself from their minds. Sam is more a divided self within a contained self; Dean is more a self mixed up in his boundaries with other selves. Both things bring strength and weakness and reflect damage in different ways.
See, you've found exactly the term I was trying to remember, and which kept hiding, 'compartmentalise'. Thank you for this clarity and for taking it so much further. I love all of what you say about Sam being linear in his way of working through emotions. Yes, and he was like that with Cas too. That ease of forgiveness -- it didn't seem simply like relief at passing on his torments to Cas. It was more characteristic of how his mind works and clears up its business.
Absolutely agree with what you say about Dean mixing up himself and his consequences in others' lives. His anger with Cas, to take the parallel, turns up like the voice of his own unrelenting and (yes) guilty approach to the world.
Is it you below (I'm scared to look in case I do something crazy to the window and lose myself) who says that thing about soulless Sam being insular and catlike and if there were a soulless Dean he'd be a pack creature? That's got to be right in the context of what you say about divided self in a contained self for Sam, and Dean's messy self mixed up with others. I guess that is what makes Dean into the leader, that imbalance that his mind has to complete itself in others' feelings and actions.
Given this stuff is so emotional and involuntary (you couldn't get to choose what your deep life was like at this level), it's no wonder we tend to settle out as Dean or Sam girls. It's almost inevitable as a form of self-recognition.
Dean by contrast...is a big sloppy mess. He's everything at once. ...And that in a way is why it might easier for the writers to give Dean's point of view. There's more blur and constancy in him from one moment and one year to the next. Even when he behaves contradictorily, it's recognisably the same man. 'I wish I felt nothing at all', he says, but it's his special burden, it seems to me, to go through everything their life offers and to keep on feeling it without breaking."
These are beautiful, insightful, intelligent descriptions of these characters.
Thank you Bamboo24. I think I've risen a good question above about the brother's different characterization. And I seem to get a good answer out of you. Like you said Sam leaving always portrayed BAD because we see it from Dean's POV. If Sam was given a POV just to explain himself then things would be different. Fans are outrage (in my part I'm more like baffled) that Sam is written again leaving hunting business that he is letting all those innocents died eaten by monster and he just let other hunters deal with it. Is it wrong of me to think that Sam is an inconsiderate person?
I'm wondering will Sam even think inside his mind that "I know what's out there, what goes bump in the night and I know that many people are dead and I should do something about it because I know. But I CHOOSE to let them go, to let others to deal with it. Because I never want to hunt and I regret of knowing what's out there."
Or "I know what's out there but I turn a blind eye to them. Why me? I just want to live a live and live my dream of normal live for once. Other hunters can deal with it. It does not have to be me."
Those are just my wondering of what happens inside Sam's head. Perhaps he had good reason but we're likely not shown that. I always want to see inside Sam's head because I want to understand him and then love him. It's hard to sympathize with a person who let his brother gone and not looking for him. That's why I get that lots of fans are outraged.
Would the intelligent, gentle, compassionate, tolerant and understanding Sam let his brother gone be gone and not even lift a finger to look for him? He could use his intelligent = doing research. He could use his gentle and compassionate to others by helping people saving people hunting things.
I remember Spiderman, at first when he got his power he uses it for his own gain to get money but then his uncle's death open his eyes that Power comes with a responsibility. He was bestowed with power it's like a sin not to help people with it. He was burdened by the responsibility but even the burdened Hero keeps going because that's what's right. It's hard and not given enough recognition but it's what's right. Am I wrong?
Now, that happened at the beginning of Spiderman career and other superheroes careers. Because they are still looking for identity. Now, Sam is a seasoned hunter. I could understand him in pilot because he's still young, just like the young Spiderman. It's understandable that he would want to have something that he wanted. "Why would it have to be me to save them. Others could do it." But it 8 seasons later. Sam had seen a lot, had learned a lot. He knew how bad the monster was, he knew that when he saw in a newspaper that a man died because his heart was stolen probably because of a werewolf. Would he just shrugged it? IF and I'm talking IF because the shows hasn't aired, yet. IF Sam just shrugged it off I would scream, "Where's your heart, Sam! You knew what's happen out there. Why?"
Now, how about this ...
"I know what happens out there and it burdens me. I don't want to have this life I never did. But I did know. I want to let go and let other hunters deal with them just like those werewolf victims but my heart screamed to me that I can't. I really hated hunting life because it took my brother away from me and all of my family but damn my heart can't let others suffer the same fate as me." This is the Sam that I love. This is the Sam that you said to be gentle, compassionate, tolerant and understanding.
Then Sam contacted other hunters to let them know about the werewolf and helping with information and ammo and shelter. Offering them help even if he felt not want to hunt it by himself. But he does hunt occasionally when the need arise. Just like Bobby.
This is the Sam that i will love and respect. And this is the Sam that I want to be shown in the show. I really want Sam to be given the chance to voice his mind. To understand a character we have to be shown scenes, clips, dialogues, to back up their characterization. We can't just guess.... It'll be great to have Sam POV.
If Sam was shown just getting a girlfriend and getting a dog and living normal life WITHOUT any connection to hunting whatsoever, Even not lifting a finger to try, at least TRY to find Dean, then.... I think it's save for me to say that Sam is not a Hero material.
If we're not shown Sam's effort then it's hard to sympathize with him because we're not shown the prove. The Prove. The PROVE. THE PROVE.
Lot's of fans with vocal voice here are not bashing and moaning without reason. I can understand their fear because the spoiler didn't give much. They are worried that Sam is going to be written OOC; Not compassionate, not care of others, not being a good brother, not even try to look with a weak reasoning. We love this show because despite their flawed characters the brothers are loyal to each others. Willing to die for each other. It's their love that drew us in.
That's why i wish that Jared really doesn't know much. That the writers always tell him that Sam live normal life just like what he wanted because the writers also did not tell him about Sam's effort to look for Dean. i hope it's there but they just don't want to reveal it, yet. I hope it's being written right now.
You've written a good description of both brothers but the show very rarely address Sam's inner feeling.
Sam was a Hero. I want Sam to be a Hero. He should be a Hero. He had potential to be a Hero. Season 1 and 2 and 3 he was written as a Hero. Nagging at Dean to drive him to Lawrence because he saw a family got burned inside their old house. Nagging at Dean to save Max and trying to save the special children.
In pilot we were not shown whether Sam kept hunting or not BUT I always love to pretend to think that Sam did hunt, just near his campus because i want Sam to be hero. I always think that Sam has this notion in his head that he can hunt and have a life at the same time. Maybe like Bobby. Spiderman was not a hero before he got power but he did have good heart and hero material inside him. When he was bestowed with power he struggled just like Sam.
When Sam was sucked into hunting he became a Hero. He's compassionate to victims and heroic all around. I like Sam when he was hunting because he was into it and maybe could even more relate to the victims than Dean.
But Dean got a chance to say 'Saving people, hunting things, family business' He got a chance to have a dilemma of "Why me? why it's me the one who have to save them.' But in the end he did it anyway.
When will Sam get a chance to say that?
I never see Sam was given a chance like that. Initially in S1 and S2 it was vengeance to kill YED. When they went to kill Wendigo Sam questioned 'What are we doing here, man? We should find, dad.' But Dean reminded him that that was what they do. Yes they looked Dad but along the way saving people as much as they can.' Sam was a hero in training, just like the beginning arc of Spiderman. I should note here that Sam implied that he was willing to leave those people being eaten by Wendigo to look for Dad. Then, the scarecrow episode where Sam left Dean to look for Dad but then he came back because it doesn't feel right in his heart. See, he was a hero in training. I very much enjoyed Sam's journey.
There's always something in the plot that make Sam went hunting. I always disregard that as a way for the writers to drive the plot. I always assumed since S2 that Sam finally realized that hunting was what they do. It's their burden as the one with the knowledge as the one who was bestowed with power to help others. When Sam met Adam he insisted that he thought Adam how to fight because he wanted to prepare him. Because he finally realize knowing about the supernatural things means he couldn't ignore it. Because if he ignore it many people would die.
That's the one plot that i like from S4, the others (aka the blood addiction and Ruby) not so much. But I'm not gonna talk about it more
Then came season 7. I love it that Sam made Dean the driving force behind his reason to embrace hell memories. And at the beginning of the season he was the one who nagged Dean to call Cas. I am happy to disregard that when Sam was asked why he was willing to suffer thru hell memories, he said because he couldn't let his brother out there alone. I'm just too busy to squee at that moment. The brotherly bond!
But then spoilers came out and burst my bubbles, so to speak. :(
The interview said that Sam said, "I didn't do anything because I know there are other hunters out there." (I'm sorry if I don't quote correctly but it's just what I get from the interview. pls correct me if i am wrong)
What!!! That's not what a hero would say. Spiderman would not sit around because there's Superman in town, right?
Now if the writers insist to write that kind of Sam and insist that this is the real Sam that they've been writing all this time and not OOC, I couldn't help to think that perhaps after all this time I see Sam differently than what the writers actually want to portray Sam. That's why I said this :
I'm beginning to suspect that that was what the writers' view of Sam. That Sam was created like that and what we've seen for all this time (at least since S4) was the real Sam.
I just wait for the writers to dissuade my worries.
I understand what you're saying.
I guess I view the show differently. I don't view Sam and Dean as heroes - I view them as humans first - humans who happen to do heroic things. I think that results in a difference in expectations about the show and these characters.
To me, SPN isn't about two superheroes (like Spiderman or Batman) fighting evil. Rather, it's about two regular, human guys who do heroic things. Now I realize Sam and Dean aren't necessarily 'regular human guys' anymore, but they started out as such and didn't ask for lives they were given. Unlike most superheroes, they didn't just find out they had superpowers one day and decide to go out and fight crime with them. They've always hunted for personal reasons, be it vengeance, or saving each other, or saving the world. While Spiderman and Batman are superhumans fighting crime - Sam and Dean are regular humans fighting supernatural things - evil, real evil. And I've always admired how SPN has depicted the many ways that takes a toll on a person.
There's no way I could watch Supernatural if Sam and Dean were like Spiderman, Superman, or Batman. What makes it watchable for me is how relatable they are - they're not these untouchable superheroes - they're very realistic, human characters.
All that to say - yeah, maybe Sam realizes that he couldn't keep hunting without his brother (it would be dangerous to hunt without backup anyway). And he says to himself, "I've done what I could. I gave everything I ever had and saved the world multiple times. I've been doing this since I was a teenager, and I've lost everyone I ever loved. I'm NOT Superman. I'm tired. I'm broken. I can't do it anymore. I'm done." And its a comfort to him to know that there are other hunters out there who can take up the slack. So he retires. Now, knowing all this HUMAN character has been through and lost, how you blame him?
It's not like he's weak. It's not like Dean hasn't had his own existential crises and doubts. Remember S5's "Point of No Return"? Dean flat out gave up and quit! And Dean walked away from the hunting life in S6. I'm not seeing the difference here. Keep in mind - Sam may give up on hunting for a while, but he DOES get back in the game in S8, and the brothers become united in mission once again.
I just don't see what's so un-heroic about these guys having weaknesses, making mistakes, and occasionally giving up. If they were perfect bad-***es all the time, there'd be no emotional connection with audience.
I do have faith that the writers will dissuade your worries, and hope we will all find things to enjoy about S8. We've still got 2.5 months to wait!
I'd like to see Sam's POV. I'd like to hear Sam saying what you said above. I will not consider what you said as canon, no offense pls Bamboo24, because you're not Sam.
Even Spiderman and Superman has human's struggle. Like in the latest movies but the audiences were shown their struggle. When spiderman lost his power, we get to see his POV, we struggled with them. He got the dialogue that back him up.
Jared said of his interpretation of Sam before the show was aired. But that's what Jared said. Whether or not this Sam is going to be explored we'll just see. Last year, they sold us a really good stuff and promising good things but puff... a season with lack of brotherly bond. Can you blame me if I'm wary?
It's not like he's weak. It's not like Dean hasn't had his own existential crises and doubts. Remember S5's "Point of No Return"? Dean flat out gave up and quit! And Dean walked away from the hunting life in S6. I'm not seeing the difference here. Keep in mind - Sam may give up on hunting for a while, but he DOES get back in the game in S8, and the brothers become united in mission once again.
We got dialogue that said Dean wanted to quit and I can understand. Why? because we were brought along with him. We were shown his POV of things. So, if this also happened to Sam I'd like to suffer with him please. I'd like to be brought along with his struggle, his dilemma, his wariness. His POV so to speak. The Hero or not Hero is not exactly my problem here. I just use it as imagery to convey my meaning. What I'd like to see is the struggle that Sam should have in next season.
All that to say - yeah, maybe Sam realizes that he couldn't keep hunting without his brother (it would be dangerous to hunt without backup anyway). And he says to himself, "I've done what I could. I gave everything I ever had and saved the world multiple times. I've been doing this since I was a teenager, and I've lost everyone I ever loved. I'm NOT Superman. I'm tired. I'm broken. I can't do it anymore. I'm done." And its a comfort to him to know that there are other hunters out there who can take up the slack. So he retires. Now, knowing all this HUMAN character has been through and lost, how you blame him?
The problem is I somehow equate Sam leaving the hunting business = Leaving Dean and giving up of finding him. And that's something that I couldn't believe Sam would do. It has correlation, see. Oh Sam is finally wary and tired but why choose now to be wary and tired? Wary and tired of finding Dean? Giving up on his brother? Dean was gone due to a supernatural incident, so I believe the supernatural world is the key point to find Dean. If Sam leave the hunting world how could we expect him to be able to find Dean? Not in a vet office, I'm sure.
I will not blame him if Sam will say in S8 that He looked, he conducted research, he tried hard, even trying to summon Crowley, The Alpha Vamp, hell even Death despite the death threat. He says all that and being able to give his own reasoning. Then I can relate to him, I can understand him. You know, I can understand Samuel Colt's reasoning of being tired. If Sam really feels that way I'd like they give him a chance to bring his case up panel (the scenes, dialogue, etc) He's the half of the lead characters, he should be given the chance to say all that with valid reasons. Considering previous seasons, what we do the most was just paraphrasing what's implied from the scenes. Even what you said, and I like what you said about Sam is still not happening, yet.
Will it be enough to be conveyed in flash back? I dunno. Would it be strong enough to define Sam's reasoning? let's see how they write it.
We'll just see the execution in 2,5 months.
I have not read your whole comment and i found this funny
I hope Bamboo24 does not get offended. I halfway thought that she/he is actually one of the writers. hahaha....
Well, the things I mentioned ARE canon - Sam's been saving people since he was a teenager; Sam's given everything he's had, his very life, to save the world; Sam's lost everyone he's every loved; Sam's not Superman. So, though Sam's never come right out and said it, it's not like I was making it up. I was merely saying - in light of the facts of canon, is it not unreasonable to assume that he would break or give up in the face of losing his brother (again)?
Btw, I'm not offended - I considered writing back, saying, "actually...I AM Sam."
Quote:
You're right. Sam hasn't been given the dialogue to express that he's just as weary as Dean has been. Though I would argue that it's implied and assumed - there's more to understanding a character's motivations, feelings, and desires than just dialogue.
The good thing is, we WILL get those flashbacks all season, and we WILL be taken on that journey with Sam.
Quote:
Oh, I definitely see the correlation, I just don't read the spoilers the way you seem too, and have a lot more faith in the writers, mainly because we have a new showrunner (I was dissatisfied with S7, too. Believe me). :) We don't know yet what Sam did, but there was never a suggestion in the spoilers that he didn't look, only that he stopped looking at some point and moved on.
Quote:
I agree - let's see how they write it and hope for the best! :)
These guys have spent years risking their lives for others, whatever the motivation. That they have doubts and flaws, and still soldier on, makes me love them more. Sam is disheartened and shell-shocked. Losing his brother AGAIN. I know some fans will always find reasons to dislike a character but these men have proven themselves heroes time and again.
Funny you should mention Star Wars - I read that Sam and Dean were originally fashioned after the characters of Luke Skywalker and Han Solo. :)
I think Dean was a hero since season 1, but fromseason 1 to 5, the story is Sam's hero journey, we see him growing to be one.
We learn to know why Sam left. I don't think we can think anymore it was as simple as 'I don't want to be with my family', right? And there was more to Ruby than 'trusting a demon'.
Season 6 Sam was soulless so I don't take it as real Sam, but you have a good point: he enjoyed hunting.
If he didn't care about people, the only reason for him to hunt is that he liked it. Then Sam saying he doesn't like hunting can't be 100% true and I wonder if they'll remember that when writing season8 Sam. It bothers me that they want to go back to that Sam that, imo, we've seen is not true, the Sam that hates hunting.
I'm fine with Sam not hunting, btw. I understand if he has no strenght or motivation left.
We know Sam is back hunting, and that Dean is very enthusiastic about it. I don't know, looks to much like S-1, but with some extra info we know now that makes it a bit weird.
The hunting shine wore off for Dean as the season went on, he was more obvious about his feelings, Sam was more introvert. How would we know how he feels about hunting? Personally I think he sometimes enjoys it, when its not dragging him down, killing of everyone he loves, when he can see that there is hope and reason.
Sam may have hunted with revenge at the front of his mind in season 1 but that doesnt change the fact that he saved people selflessly, he he cared, he fought. He was a hero from the moment we met him and from cannon we know from a lot earlier in life.
OOOhhhh Hades I really really wish that what you said is true because the spoilers seemed to imply the other way. I would support you if you want to apply as one of the Spn writers.
Yes, I love Sam when he was hunting because it's clear that he was soo into it. But it's also fact that Sam almost never hunt alone. Now, it's the time. The time for Sam to shine to hunt despite being alone. To hunt to help people, saving people hunting things because he knows monsters are out there. That this is what Dean would do but more importantly this is what he wanted to do. From the goodness of his heart, from the calling of his heart that he keeps hunting despite no one else beside him.
He finally was shown having no other reason to hunt other than that he wants to. No Dean's deal, no vengeance, no angles and demons manipulations. 'I hunt because i want to and with the hope that along the way i would find a way/clue to Dean's whereabouts.' Because IMHO Sam wouldn't find a clue to Dean's where about if he's not involved in supernatural world. Writing a Sam who washes his hands from the supernatural world altogether would show a Sam that does not care about Dean.
I really hope you're right and I won't see that Sam on TV.
PS: Although half of my heart (Ok the better part of my heart) wish that To Find Dean is the reason for Sam to hunt again.
All the Spn characters have negotiated dark sides to being a hero in various ways: the possibility that doing something for the sake of a loved one will do damage (Mary makes a deal to save John and it harms her family, Dean makes a deal to save Sam and it damages Sam, Dean, and the world, Sam is ready to take the risk that the Trickster is really Bobby in MS to save Dean, Dean tortures again and violates Lisa and Ben by altering their memories in an effort to protect them, etc., the things Samuel was willing to do to get Mary back). The possibility that a goal like stopping the apocalypse will lead people to use terrible means to their ends (Sam draining the nurse in s4, Cas breaking Sam's wall in s6). The possibility that the kind of vigilante justice hunters practice is dehumanizing (Dean's feeling that robo!Sam is his mirror, that he is a killer not a hunter, the way Bobby can go from the one who intervened to remind Sam and Dean that Meg was occupying the body of an innocent girl to shooting Ruby 1 in the chest just to test the Colt; the general disregard that Sam, Dean, and Bobby have all shown for the fact that the demons they deal with are also possessed people). The dangers of a black and white viewpoint that monsters are evil and must die, period (something that was in play for Dean especially in s2 and s7). The fact that both Sam and Dean have felt that hunting isn't something they choose but simply something they are trapped in (Dean's speech to Jo about how he got into this so young he can do nothing else, Sam's words to Colt that no one gets out, Dean's hope that Krissy and her father could find a way out of the darkness and destructive family patterns that go with hunting, even if he couldn't).
Sam has stood for several of the dark aspects of hunting: the revenge drive that motivates so many hunters in s1 and s4, the ruthlessness that will sacrifice to an end in s4, or the ruthlessness that reduces everything to efficiency that was robo!Sam, the hunter part of Sam stripped of empathy or ethical goals. He's also at times been a voice for the value of hunting (preventing the YED from doing to Rosie's family what he'd done to his and Dean's, trying to shore up Dean's belief that it's worth it after WIaWNSB and in Mannequin, urging that they needed to take time from the pursuit of Dick to help Krissy). And he's been the site for some of the confusions in value that surround hunting (one of his reasons for developing his powers in s4 was that it let him save the hosts when destroying demons, yet that road led him to kill the nurse; his identifications with monsters have helped him to question the black and white hunting code, to see hope in reaching out to God!Cas when Dean assumed that there was nothing left to reach, yet his desire to believe that a demon could conceivably be on the right side contributed to his trusting Ruby). And Dean has his own light and dark sides in relationship to "heroism."
Spn at it's core has been said to be about Sam and Dean's humanity. The problem of how to keep hunting a service to humanity rather than something that saps humanity (by hardening the people who hunt, by denying the potential humanity of some monsters, or by cutting hunters off from the human community that they are in theory protecting) is a major component of that theme. Bobby's "you're a hunter, not a person" to Dean isn't a satisfactory solution to the dilemma that Dean faced after the crisis of his attempt at a life with Lisa and the traumas of s6. It sounds from some of Edlund's remarks that Sam's attempts to hold onto other aspects of life, maybe ultimately find a way to incorporate them into hunting rather than having to reject one for the other, is another exploration of the problem of how to be a hero and human.
"We keep each other human," is still the line that sums up the show and Sam and Dean best for me.
YES.
Sam’s reasons for hunting are varied throughout the seasons, and I think that has the potential to be a very interesting bit of character exploration for Sam this season. He’s hunted out of revenge, desperation, loss, remorse, in need of redemption, as a distraction, etc. He’s also hunted because he thought it was the right thing to do at times, too. He’s hunted because he didn’t want to leave Dean alone, or at least he’s come back for those reasons.
Despite Dean’s misgivings about hunting and occasional impulses to quit, he never has been able to walk away, excluding the gap between S5 and S6 when he did at Sam’s request. His belief that hunting is his calling and/or duty has rarely wavered. Sam has never seemed as attracted to hunting in and of itself, and has shown himself much more likely than Dean to take independent steps to get out of hunting. So I don’t think Sam leaving hunting is in and of itself character assassination. It’s consistent with the reluctant hero characterization he’s always been given, in my opinion. Since I don’t for a minute believe that Sam just assumed Dean was gone and never looked (Jared’s “finally” is an important adverb in that statement to me), I think that’s another issue all together.
I think if you only look at either character’s bad side, then you’re going to get a negative character assessment. I think that Sam has character traits as well as some amazing ones—just like Dean. It all depends on what you’re looking for.
Also, I think Sam has some bad character traits as well as some amazing ones. Sigh.
Yes, especially since one of the things I find most interesting about robo!Sam was that he lacked some of Sam's weaknesses as well as his good qualities. I can't imagine robo!Sam getting hooked on power/demon blood as Sam did in s4, or attacking Dean the way Sam did in 4.21. He didn't have Sam's anger or insecurities or family issues or trigger responses or messed up guilt and grief any more than he had Sam's empathy or capacity for altruism and sacrifice or ability to see shades of grey or love for his brother. When robo!Sam harmed people it was either about efficiency (letting Dean get turned, shooting the hostage) or out of self-preservation (attacking Bobby).
You make a great point in saying that robo!Sam didn't have Sam's weaknesses as well as being devoid of his strengths. I never thought about that before. He wouldn't have been triggered by his fears of being a monster in 4.21. He didn't have Sam's guilt or insecurities or family issues (though I think the anger and frustration still remained sometimes). Robo!Sam's actions were guided pretty much by animal instinct--does it feel good? Will this get me what I want the quickest? Will this save my life? I think that's another reason why robo!Sam never felt like real Sam to me--he lacked so many of the three-dimensionality that Sam possesses.
I don't think they were all that consistent with the soullessness and I end up picking and choosing among some inconsistent possibilities when I think about robo!Sam, but I do think he was specifically connected to Sam, maybe just because he thought he was Sam, he had Sam's memories, Sam's context. So even if there is a genericness to soullessness, when robo!Sam was figuring out who he was and what to do, he did it in the matrix of Sam's life. That would explain why he kept hunting, even though hunting is dangerous and he had a strong instinct for self-preservation, and why he still had a fixation on Dean even when he didn't care about him. And his sense of identity changed somewhat, from being genuinely a bit puzzled about why his responses were different from what people seemed to expect and what he remembered of Sam before he knew about soullessness, to a stronger sense of himself as a separate being after he learned what had happened and started thinking in terms of competition with that other Sam in the Cage.
Which makes it fascinating to wonder what robo!Dean would be like. I can imagine that if Dean came back soulless but with the context of his life and his memories he might still have some aspects of protective Dean, only without love or caring. I think that animalistic aspect might have more of a pack aspect in soulless!Dean, where soulless!Sam was more of a loner animal, a cat or something.
See, I thought that S6 was very inconsistent in terms of soulessness, especially regarding the emotionlessness of robo!Sam. He very clearly felt anger, frustration, satisfaction, even fear by 6.11 when he thought he'd be resouled. In 6.1, Sam said things felt right when Dean was there, but by 6.7 he told us he didn't care about Dean at all. By 6.9 he was the comic relief of the episode, but in 6.5 he was clearly supposed to be villainized by his actions against Dean. I think the traces of Sam left, so to speak, only really answered for so much, at least for me. They changed soulless Sam to fit the episode, so to me it felt inconsistent. Then again, I am extremely unfond of the roboSam era, so I accept that colors my perceptions.
Souless Dean is an interesting question. Would the protective instincts remain, or is that connected to soul? I could see a more pack aspect to Dean, but even then it might flip on a dime and disappear, like robo!Sam's family "connections" seemed to. I didn't see robo!Sam as much of a loner, honestly--he was either hooked up with Samuel or hooked up with Dean. When he had the chance to act alone, he usually wandered back to Dean or Samuel, leaving them to take point more often than not. I see real Sam as much more independent and loner-cat than robo!Sam. I could see robo!Dean much the same as robo!Sam in that aspect.
But funny, I've always thought of Sam more as a cat and Dean as a dog in terms of their animal characteristics. So we definitely agree there!
And sometimes he was just hilarious.
Sam was out of the hunting life in the pilot...he was fully engaged in the hunting life by the end of the pilot. It does seem that 8 is going to start in a similar place. Personally I loved the pilot. I like the idea that we're going to get slow reveals about what happened when they were separated.
Pilot was ok because Sam was young. I considered him still green in the hunting live because mostly he just did research while Dan and Dean hunting but after 7 seasons, Sam's heart would be and should be heavy by the loss of Dean and he wouldn't have the heart to leave all of those people to fend for themselves when he could do something to help.
If there's a nail on the road and you know it and you know that that nail will jeopardize any drivers that pass by would you just shrug and walked away? No, right? The Sam that we know ans love would want to get rid of that nail. Because if he walked away and a motor driver died because of the nail when Sam knew he could prevent it, his heart would feel guilty.
Also the writers and creators of the show are looking at it long-term. They probably feel that the character who saves Dean is an important part of the season 8 plot.
One thing is for sure. Even if Sam does not save Dean, I will not blame Sam for it. If he wants to give normal life a shot, he is only human, and does not mean that he does not care about Dean. He is moving on, and I am okay with that. No way am I going to stop seeing SPN.
Exactly my thoughts
I’m guessing this ‘something’ that gets Dean out will be what was referred to in an earlier interview about them revisiting an issue of the past and ‘doing it right’. Wow, look at that, another opportunity to show how Dean will get it right when Sam got it so wrong. Well, colour me surprised.
I thought for one brief moment that the video had been manipulated or maybe Alice had been hypnotized when typing up the notes because I am stunned at this but alas, no. Other reports (if they are true) confirm it (other tiny details in other reports actually make me feel a hell of a lot worse than I do now). It’s amazing how quickly ten words or so can deflate all the excitement I had for season 8. Perhaps it’s just the shock at what I feared for season 8 being confirmed in writing but I don’t think I’ve ever been so disappointed about reveals before. I’m now thankful that the show is on Wednesday evenings (Thursday mornings for me) because I now have a genuine excuse to not watch it until a few days later.
The problem is that he did try, Dean said so himself. He couldn't but he did try.
Quote:Dean did try to get Sam out of the Cage. Like he said in 6.01 ‘I looked everywhere, I collected hundreds of books trying to find anything to bust you out. Of course I didn’t leave it alone.’ We saw him hit the bottle big time in grief over Sam. We saw him stay in a situation where he felt alien out of respect for Sam. Going by the spoilers given, Sam will react to Dean being gone by finding a girlfriend and moving on. It’s very easy to interpret that as Sam not loving Dean enough.
Quote: This is my biggest fear, that when Sam ‘knows’ he can’t do a thing he just takes his life back, the life he lost so long ago when Dean came to find him at Stanford. He can escape and leave hunting with no Dean around to ‘anchor’ him. (What happens when Dean comes back? Will Sam only go back to hunting because Dean wants him to?) If this supposition does pan out to be true, it could change everything we thought we 'knew' about Sam since season one; every motivation, every action is in doubt. Did he go with Ruby because he was so devastated over Dean or did he go with Ruby because, when Dean was around, he'd never have been able to do it. It's like Professor Snape. We believe something about a character for so long yet when one tiny new snippet of information comes to light it changes everything we have previously thought about the character.
Add to that, Sam and Dean have faced worse than the impossible before. They’ve had umpteen situations where they’ve had zero leads, zero intel, zero to work with but they’ve always worked to find something. They have never given up. Sam has never given up. He took down Lucifer, he’s killed Lilith, he’s helped save the world on more than one occasion. He’s faced umpteen situations where he has ‘known’ he can’t do a thing yet each and every time he’s managed to do something. I never saw Sam Winchester who would just give up because it was hard, and most definitely not when it came to his brother. Guess I read him wrong all these years.
Quote:Sam doesn’t need anyone to back him. He doesn’t need someone to hold his hand and spoonfeed him information and tell him what way to turn. (At least the Sam of the past didn’t. Perhaps this new incarnation of Sam does.) He’s a highly capable hunting veteran who has managed to down Lucifer and saved the world on more than one occasion. He’s been in the hunting life for almost his entire life, he has seen more and done more than pretty much every hunter on the planet; he shouldn’t need someone to back him.
Quote:The very definition of a hero is someone who doesn't give up. Sam never, ever, ever gave up. Even in season 7, when Lucifer was haunting his every move, he never gave up. The salt and burn he did while in hospital in The Born Again Identity shows that. That's why he was considered a hero. If these reveals turn out to be true and Sam just gives up when things get tough, can it still be argued that he's a hero then? And this isn't a game of sudoku Sam is giving up on, it's his brother. How can Sam still be considered heroic if he just leaves his brother hanging when things get tough?
And anyway Dean read up stuff and decided he couldn't save Sam, okay. But Sam doesn't even know where Dean is. So what can he do? That is how I see it.
Also, I think a hero knows when to back off, when to stop. Sam is not a fool, he doesn't want to waste his life on something he believes cannot happen. Never giving up is not always wise.
So I guess we can agree to disagree.
The show has been dismantled bit by bit to such an extent that it’s almost a parody of what it was. There are precious few things left on it that are sacrosanct any more but I truly believed that the brothers loyalty to each other, that their willingness to do whatever it took for each other, was one of them and now seemingly, even that is being taken.
I’ve no problem with Sam being written as shady or his actions going unexplained in order to further an overall storyline (i.e. season 4) but is it necessary for it to be Sam every damn season? This action, if it is shown to be true, will serve to do nothing but cast doubt on any and all of Sam’s future actions and motivations. If we see Sam being angry at Dean is it because Dean has done something wrong or because Sam is resentful that Dean’s return took him away from what he wanted? How can Sam be trusted to have Dean’s back if he turned his back on him and ran first chance he got? How can we believe that he is happier with Dean when it shows that Sam, quickly and easily, moves on with his life in Dean’s absence? Will Sam just hunt because he feels obligated to do so and if so, how soon before the old resentments start building up again? And I fear that once again, this action will make Sam nothing more than a plot device to serve Deans angst and frustration and it will undoubtedly be thrown in his face as often as Stanford and Ruby was.
Ironically, in seasons past, this type of writing has made me appreciate the character of Sam much more because it is a challenge to understand why he does what he does. It’s not a ‘What you see is what you get’ sort a thing with him because he is so much more than the mere actions that he is shown to take. However, the show has methodically, at one time or another, stripped Sam of everything that made him who he is; his smarts, his sense of humour, his self-belief, his earnestness, his determination, his loyalty, his motivation, his honour etc so if they take this one final thing from him, what will be the point of Sam anymore? He will, as Macbeth said, signify nothing. He won’t be a Winchester because he’s never sacrificed himself to save family, he won’t be a hunter because he doesn’t see the value in hunting and he won’t be a good brother because he gave up on Dean so easily. What exactly will there be left of the character of Sam after this? It will be harder and harder to justify Sam’s actions when we see less and less of the aspects of the character that we thought we knew.
Honestly, I never thought I’d be as depressed as I was last night (my nephew lost a hurling final and if the sight of eighteen inconsolable 12 year old boys doesn’t depress you I don’t know what does) but I thought wrong. I’m absolutely gutted about this because while I’m sure the storyline will be served, I can’t face it once again being at Sam’s expense. He’s been the scapegoat for years of mistrust and all that is wrong between Sam and Dean for far too long; let the show put that burden on someone else’s shoulders for once.
I do realise that JP, JA and BE might be playing us for fools because they are well versed enough in doing press to know how to give completely ambiguous statements for the purpose of causing debate. I know it’s possible that none of what I fear will come to pass but I’m not going to hope that this is the case anymore. Hope of change got me through the last few seasons but experience is a bitch of a teacher. Nothing about any part of the interviews gives me any hope for season 8 (Is the only reason Dean forgave Sam because he’s family, not because he understood what he was doing and why? JA says it’s hard for Dean to relate to a ‘monster’, Castiel, yet he trusted that monster, and his word, how many times over his ‘companion’ Sam?) and I swear to God, every time I reread it (in the vain hopes that the words have changed), it get worse.
This is something which i too have wondered
Quoting Tim the Enchanter:
I agree, it's hard to back up Sam if we only have to read between the lines. No hard prove like in dialogue, scenes, etc.
Quote:
I laughed at your sudoku comment. But don't get me wrong. I agree with you in this matter.
They have Sam just giving up on Dean, and that's not cool. It makes Sam look like an unfeeling bastard. I have no idea why the writers would do this to him!
As Tim said, I know Sam cares so why they wouldn't portray that is beyond me. Tim's post hit on all the key points. Sam doesn't need anything but his brain and a laptop! But apparently he just doesn't care enough to try!
I love Sam but I don't know what else I'm supposed to think when he doesn't even bother searching for Dean. It's bad writing. I guess Sam is just destined to always be the "wrong, bad" brother!
I guess, this is the best thing I heard from Jensen after a disappointing interview from Jared. Still they gotta give a better explanation why Sam left Dean all alone to rot wherever he is.
After S7, my faith runs thing.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...
Professor V didn't find her own way out, she happened to escape when the portal was opened from the other side. It's not realistic that things can escape from within Purgatory or else the Leviathans and every other monster would be letting themselves loose all of the time.
Quoting deangirl1:
I'm not disputing that Dean's story has been disappointing (more season 7 than season 6 - I thought he had a good year in season 6), but Sam's story has been "crap" too. He came back in season 6 a sociopath. There was a lot of mystery around what what was wrong with Sam and what he wanted with Dean (why he was suddenly back in his life when he didn't seem to care about him). We went a half a season without seeing the real Sam, instead we got a monster than Dean and Bobby considered killing. The mystery of what was wrong with Sam was revealed, but what was never addressed was WHY he was soulless. This was unheard of (that a body could be walking around without a soul) - so much so that it shocked Veritas and intrigued the Alpha Vamp. There were hints that Sam did horrendous things. And then Dean rescued Sam - got his soul back - and Sam's story was promptly dropped and left unfinished. We never learned why Sam returned soulless. We never learned what horrible things Sam did while soulless (using people as bait isn't bad enough for what was implied). We never learned why Sam changed his mind about wanting to hunt with Dean (are we supposed to believe that he ever really wanted his soul back?). Other than one episode in Unforgiven and a brief moment in the finale, we never saw Sam emotionally deal with or reflect on his soulless period. And Sam was basically nothing more than wallpaper for the second half of the season.
The mental breakdown was a lot of hype with little pay off. In the end, Sam suffered from nothing worse than sleep deprivation, and was promptly healed with no follow up. So yeah, "having bits teased and never come to fruition" perfectly fits Sam's storyline as well.
Yeah. That says it all!
Great post!
You're right. Thank you!
Poor Jeremy, getting stomped on before the season even starts! Anyway, every single fan can't have happen what they want as nothing will please everybody at one time. Always going to be complaining and mean remarks.
I just skip over them now, and it makes life much nicer. I'll let Jeremy and the cast and crew and creators keep making the magic that keeps me obsessed with the brothers, and Chuck bless them for that!
Dean finally gets a storyline, finally a genre-related mystery and, if I'm understanding it right, he will get the old hunter spark back and be allowed to be a badass.
So I'm sorry that is such an inconvience for everyone who hoped the character would get nothing but repetitive pointless emo again for another year, be bashed and mocked and boohoo-ed for it all over the place and be shown as the general negative figure to everything Sam can do wonderfully better than him.
I think it's high time to show the character in a positive and/or strong light for a change. And I'd be very happy if that finally happens.
And yes even I am a bit flabbergasted at the Sam end of the story but the writers, going by Edlund's comments, already go out of their way to paint it as sympathetic, healthy and positive as possible. If it were Dean, I don't see that happening in a million years.
Personally, I don't find Sam hateful for it. Granted, what is being described isn't his most glorious hour but it is not something that I find unforgiveable in a character.
But the skies fall if it's the other way around. If Dean gets something interesting for once, it still means crap.
Like I said, I get it, the Sam-spoiler side of things is rather baffling but not only do I believe that had they done that with Dean, they wouldn't have tried to play it in a sympathetic light in any way whatsoever. But also that they apparently have every intention to cushion the blow for Sam's character.
I fear Dean will even end up apologizing for his "slight resentment", realizing how wrong he was to feel that way.
Personally, I want this initial tension over and done with soon. I'm all for a more healthy, mature relationship. Last thing I need is more cheap drama.
So let Sam explain his reasons, let Dean, I don't know, move on from it, WITHOUT apologizing for his own feelings. And let them simply hunt together.
Definitely! No more sulking and brooding and agonising from dean. If Sam was happy lets hope dean gives him that and moves on. I miss the cocky, assured dean of old that had no permanent scowl. I want him badass but with a smirk! I can hope I guess!
I can totally understand him not being all "well, my year was crap but thank god Sam, the important one, had a good time".
The show just shouldn't make it into big drama. We all know they'll keep hunting together so basically ignore it is the best option I can say.
Yes. This.
Huh?
When Dean got that same civilian life set-up with boring non-spoilers and a non-story in Season 6, it was more or less brushed aside with "oh well, he'll probably get something later and even if not, who cares".
As for getting shafted, we'll have to agree to disagree because I believe the Dean-character has been getting shafted for years now and this might be the first time where he isn't since maybe Season 2.
The Sam-part of the spoilers? Stuff like Fallen Idols and especially the handling of 5.22 made me angry and livid with the character. This is, like I mentioned, nothing I truly find him damn-worthy for. Not his shiniest hour but what I heard so far is genuinely not something that turns me off a character forever in itself.
Why..he is directing an episode so ..again why?
Just as I'd imagine talk about Sam spoilers to go on more in the Jared interview as well as general spoilers in writer interviews etc.
So I guess people shouldn't talk about Dean spoilers anywhere then? Is his character not important enough to discuss HIS end of the spoilers or what?
They can talk about Dean spoilers anywhere until the discussion is specifically about Sam .Even then there will be shared spoilers ..so Dean spoilers can be dicussed in Jared's article because Jared and Sam are not same..
Quote:
Yes his character is important..no one denied that
So yeah, if I expected a discussion more slanted towards Dean, it would be this interview vs. Jared's interview.
And yeah, I for one am ECSTATIC about having juicy Dean spoilers. Last year the Comic Con articles that came out read "Sam's wall, Castiel's god complex and other stuff".
Not exactly inspiring for a Dean-fan.
Just as I think Jensen looks way more animated and engaged in this years' interviews.
Not that I even know all of that will translate to something good onscreen but it's better than the last few years.
We all have our own breaking points. For you, it was FI and SS. For me, it's this. I watch for the brothers. Their bond is why I love this show, and they are effectively trashing the bond and the brotherhood. Some won't care, but I do. I don't like it. I'm a bi-bro fan. This is horrible for Sam.
The bond is all one-sided if these spoilers are accurate. It's all coming from Dean. That's not cool. I mean, what's the problem w/showing Sam caring as much about Dean as Dean does about Sam? Why is that a problem?
(Edited by Alice. Unfounded Sam vs. Dean)
So yes, it does seem to me that, to some fans not all, that if Sam's not the total front and center , those fans will complain that he's getting shafted. And to be completely fair, I know there are also some fans who feel the same way about Dean. How about the writer finally giving BOTH characters equally good story arcs? Novel idea huh?
And yes, we are all in agreement I think on at least one aspect; It should have been SAM that rescued Dean! And also alas, it looks like we won't be getting our epic reunion hug!
For me, the show ends and begins w/the brotherhood. That is heart of the show. For the writers to have Sam not even trying to find a way to help Dean is very troubling. I feel like they are spitting on the brotherhood, the heart of the show.
I honestly don't know how or why I'm supposed to care about what Sam went through in his year when it had nothing to do w/Dean. He wasn't looking for Dean or searching for answers. He wasn't even slightly obsessed w/finding his brother. Sam was off w/his GF living his life. For a show based on two brothers going to the ends of the earth for each other, that makes no sense. They've stomped on the heart of the show.
I feel like this would be the second time Sam is cast in a very negative, unflattering light. And I'm not saying Sam should always make the right decisions or never do anything shady, but I hate that he is yet again being shown to be the selfish, uncaring brother. He was mean to Dean in Season 4. He was soulless in Season 6 (and I loved Soulless Sam and Season 6), and now we have him writing off Dean for NO reason. Sam wasn't left w/a dead body. There's no reason for Sam to NOT look for Dean. Why the writers have him washing his hands of Dean is beyond me? I couldn't care less that he gives up hunting. My problem is w/him giving up on Dean. I just don't believe the character would do that so I worry about how JC sees him.
Sam is always the bad, wrong brother! It would have been nice to see something different this year.
Oh, and I enjoy the emotional parts of the show more than the mytharc so, until last season, I've been fine w/Dean's role on the show. He gets more exploration and is a fully developed character in my mind. Sam is more like a walking plot point that changes w/the plot.
Wow, lucky you, you've already seen the new season! The rest of us have to do with brief and probably misleading spoilers. At least you don't have to tune in come October.
Unless Sam spending his time living his life w/his GF has something to do w/Dean, then I'm not interested just like I wasn't interested in Dean's life w/Lisa and Ben.
I don't watch Supernatural for romance. Maybe you do. I don't.
Until I read something else, it sounds like Sam writes off Dean, which will never make any sense to me.
Thanks, Tim
Yes!!! I am very much disappointed with the spoilers. Why did I watch the spoilers at all? :( I want the brothers to have good and solid bond.
Screwing half the show is screwing a lot.
Perhaps veiwers and writers have forgotten the way Sam was in Mystery Spot when Dean was dead for six whole months. He even used to set a place at table for him when he was eating. He did nothing else but hunt the Trickster down.
He begged the Tickster to give him back his brother and even when he went with Ruby it was out of sheer desperation at being alone without Dean.
Did he not go to the Crossroads demon and offer himself instantly in exchange for Dean.
Sam loves and cares for his brother, and if now they want to make out that Sam, who MUST suspect that his brother is in Purgatory, just walks away from Dean; well it's not on!
They can say and make Sam do whatever they want but Sam has said on more than one occasion that there is NOTHING he wouldn't do for Dean and I prefer to believe that rather than he is willing to go off and forget completely about his brother and live a new life, not even trying to find Dean. No way!
If this is the new Carver is bringing then I'll hang on to the old!
Why must he suspect this? We only know cos we were shown, or did I miss something?
Also, Dean told their grandfather straight that they had to stop bringing people back. Sam would have buckleys chance finding dean and if he thought he was dead he would be doing what dean would want this time in letting him go. He could either waste the rest of his life searching with absolutely no idea and no-one to ask, or he could actually go for something better than an eternity alone. That woman/love interest probably decides him on this too. I don't see Sam as weak for going down this path. Why would he be?
The whole series is about the two inseparable Winchester brothers who have sacrificed everything for each other including stints in Hell and deals of various natures.
I believe we saw Sam upset at the end of Season Seven for the disappearance of his brother, so either the character has been brainwashed in the time between end season seven and season eight, otherwise he would be on the track of his brother.
Sam is of course free to forget all about Dean and the hunting world and concentrate on normal, but it wouldn't be the Sam I've come to know and love for his ethics, morals and love and care for his brother Dean.
Nowhere did it say that Sam wouldn't be trying to find Dean. Why presume the opposite? Carver wrote Mystery Spot. He knows what Sam would do to try and find his brother.
Have a little optimism guys!
I'd like to borrow your optimism Bevie. Because mine is diminishing by the hour.
The Leviathans come from Purgatory. Crowley had business in Purgatory. Purgatory has been big for 2 seasons.
First thingI would try would be Purgatory. It's not rocket science, and I'd like to give Sam a bit of credit.
Quote:
It's terribly selfish, because he has no idea where his brother is. Dean could be being eaten alive (more or less what actually happens) for an eternity and Sam is walking the dog. Pssh. Awesome.
As if he forgave Sam easily.
Quoting anonymousN:
See, I think that that's where we disagree. For you, you have to trust in order to forgive. For me, trust and forgiveness are two completetly different things that aren't co-dependant.
And then Dean apologized to Sam for doing it in that very episode! Dean did forgive Sam very shortly into the fifth season just as Nia said.
No his apology did not encompass his forgiveness for me as he apologized for the way he has treated Sam..so they are not connected for me.
Dean's apology in Fallen Idols did also encompass forgiveness for Sam's actions of the previous season, for ME.
Not that Sam's every move didn't need to be watched.
Not that he was sorry for watching his every move, even.
Just that he'd been oblivious to the toll that was taking on Sam. And for that, he was sorry.
Which is all as it should be, as far as I'm concerned.
He did, didn't he? I think he hoped for so much from Cas. Cas did that 'I see your soul directly' thing and trusted him at a time when Dean was in horror of his own actions in hell. It must have felt like a life-line.
Native stubbornness probably would have carried Dean on despite self-horror, together with help from Bobby and Sam. But Cas seemed to open up a vein of hope or of fresh opportunity in him. So the recoil into disappointment and anger was profound. In my view, Dean felt personally diminished because it was possible for Castiel to betray him. Like a bit of good self had to die. Such is the nature of hope in someone. If Cas stood however shadowily between Dean and self-blame before, it's no wonder the anger against him is lacerating.
The very words Dean throws at Cas: 'no one cares that you're broken; clean up your mess' are like Dean's internalised John Winchester voice at the father's graveside in the djinn/alternative life/mow-the-lawn episode (whatever that one is called -- sorry I can never remember their names).
It's a strange relationship, in some ways very equal, like a true friendship, but what Jensen said about the difficulty for Dean to relate to something supernatural is revealing. Interesting too that Misha says something like Cas will revert to a more Law abiding, obedient disposition in this season, and more like someone belonging to the angel species.
Wonderful little read!
The relationship between Cas and Dean is so interesting to me -- though it's easier to imagine from a Dean point of view than through Castiel's eyes, especially at the very beginning when Cas turns up as our first sight of Angel. He's so different. Before Cas entered the scene, understanding the supernatural was mostly a matter of 'how do I kill that?' And there it is, all that stuff on the walls of the cowshed as he walks in -- something's got to work!! -- and piled up on tables within Bobby and Dean's reach. But instead they meet this gentleness and restraint of great power. And it's so personal the way Cas talks to Dean. I love how suddenly understanding the supernatural means imagining in real and familiar terms the possibility of good. It's an amazing moment. Probably one of the iconic moments of the show.
I wish that angels hadn't turned out to be like other monsters, killable and corruptible. If the reset we're getting in Season 8 in some way took us back to the essentials of what angels are, it would be terrific.
I hope I get this posting right, cos want to say thanks and hi to Nia, Bevie and Shelby.
I saw a viewer ask on another board ‘How could anyone like Sam?’ and it’s now a fair question. Based on these spoilers, I’m struggling to come up with an answer. It feels as if the show is intent on making Sam unlikeable and unrelatable and so completely out of character that he’s unrecognisable. The show constantly changes who he is in order to serve whatever story they want to tell. Sam has stated more than once that he didn’t fit into ‘normal’ and that he didn’t want that life anymore and now it seems as if that’s all he’s ever wanted. He’s fought tooth and nail for his brother in the past and how he has just given up on him because he doesn’t know where he is. (You know, Sam, you have done tracking spells before.) He has a font of knowledge inside that head of his but he’s not going to use it. He has an idea as to what’s coming with knowledge of the knowledge he has of Crowley, Kevin, the Word of God, Purgatory, the Leviathans etc and he does nothing. He has his own personal brain Wikipedia in terms of the supernatural and he’s just going to say ‘Nah, I’m done’! That’s akin to a scientist looking for a cure for cancer for decades and when he retires he decides to not share what he has learnt. Absolutely unfathomable for a character I thought I knew.
I’ve spent a lot of time this past week or so travelling so thoughts often turned to season 8 and I have to say that I did not see this one coming. Of all the scenarios I came up with (and there were quite a few), I’ve been completely blindsided by this one, and not in a good way because Sam giving up on his brother is the one scenario I never could have envisaged. More fool me, I guess.
We will look at both Sam and Dean and when we judge them in terms of the qualities that SPN has shown to be heroic; loyalty, determination, bravery and tenacity then Sam, and his actions, will be seen as villainous because via these spoilers, Sam eschews all these qualities in order to do what he wants to do to better his own life; to be free of hunting and evidently his brother.
Dean has spent his entire life doing what he needs to do, not necessarily what he wants to do, in order to better others lives. He has sacrificed his life and his happiness time and again for his family so there is no doubt in our minds that Dean is a hero. Yet in a show about hunting, would the hero decide to not hunt? In a show about family, would the hero turn his back on family?
The thing is Slak, I've no problem with Sam getting out of hunting. God knows, at this stage I want him out of hunting. I like that Sam might be coming to a stage where he feels the worth in himself to be able to be around other people but the circumstances surrounding this are absolutely abysmal. Dean is missing, maybe dead, maybe being tortured, and Sam thinks that is the opportune time to start afresh! Genuinely, if your child just disappeared one day would you just throw your hands up and say 'Well, he/she is gone. Nothing I can do about it now so it’s time to move on’? This is, from my reading, what the spoilers are saying Sam will be doing. There’s nothing wrong with Sam trying and failing but having him not try at all??
Like I said, from what we know at the moment, Sam’s behaviour is so out of character for him that nothing short of a full frontal lobotomy would explain it and while that might be said in jest, given the lack of interest the show has shown towards the character of Sam, I wouldn’t be one bit surprised if this is the direction they did decide to go in.
I honestly don't think Jared would be happy with a storyline (without a damn good reason) that would have Sam give up on Dean straight away..
I'm with you here. I want Sam to try hard to find Dean and I want us to be shown scenes and dialogues of those miserable months of his. Despite his rendezvous with the Vet doctor he should never stop finding Dean because Dean never stop trying to get Sam out of Hell. Dean was miserable.
But IMHO trying to find Dean = involved in the hunting world, either as a consultant or home base like Bobby or else.
Stopped hunting = leaving the supernatural world = leaving a shred of hope in finding Dean. Because Dean was gone due to supernatural cause.
I think the writers should make it clear what they mean by Sam leaving the hunting life. In what capacity he left the hunting life? Could he left the hunting life but still able to conduct research to find Dean?
IMO to find Dean then he must continue "hunting", hunting for clues, hunting for Crowley, Purgatory residents, even Leviathan to somehow bled information from them. Perhaps trying to find Kevin because Kevin read God's tablet and it was said that Dean was gone due to the recoil of God's weapon. Sam should never stopped hunting while Dean's still MIA because hunting is IMO the only way to find clue to Dean's whereabout.
Everything that has happened to him has been thrust upon him. He didn't ask for the demon blood. It's a bit difficult for a six month old baby to express any wishes, good or bad.
If we want to go looking for blame we could easily put it on Castiel's shoulders, as if it wasn't for him taking Dean back in time to witness everything that happened, Azazel would never have caught young Mary's and Dean's scent in the first place, causing the whole demon blood thing to be set into motion.
I'm not going to bore anyone by going through the whole series again but Sam has stated more than once that there is nothing he wouldn't do for Dean.
Now if the writers have conveniently forgotten that and want to portray the brother who has always been considered the empathic, caring ,emotional one as a cold-hearted man who doesn't care what's happened to his big brother, they are free to do, so but they can't expect everyone to agree with them.
I for one don't!
I agree w/you! I refused to believe that Sam would just say, "Well, I guess Dean died. Oh well. I hated hunting anyway. Hey . . . that doctor is cute. Maybe she can be my girlfriend."
That is some BS! It completely goes against EVERYTHING we know about Sam. Unless Sam's under a spell or something, none of this will track for me!
Can't blame Dean for that as that would be a real d*ck move by Sam!
Misty, I want it to play out the way you said. Before these spoilers dropped, that's what I thought we'd get - a desperate Sam searching for a way to help his brother but finally resigning himself to the loss.
Apparently, according to BE, JP, and JC, we're getting a Sam who washed his hands of the situation immediately. A Sam who assumes Dean's dead, and since Bobby and Cas aren't present to hold his hand, he couldn't possibly research into this and figure things out. A Sam who simply doesn't care that Dean is probably being tortured somewhere since a lead isn't blinking in his face!
I know I'm being bitchy but these spoilers really upset me as a bi-bro fan who loves the show for the brotherhood! I see the brotherhood being trashed under this scenario.
I can only hope it plays out like you and I both want (i.e., Sam searching for Dean and looking for ways to get him back).
I hate Sam bashing, but that doesn't mean I can't be hard on the show and how it is shaping this character.
For anyone who thinks I bash Sam: I don't. I love Sam, love him. I'm mad at how he's being treated by the writers, that's all.
Most of us are upset w/the writers chosen action for Sam. Most of us don't believe Sam wouldn't look for Dean. Most of us aren't buying what the writers are selling. And most of us are sad that Sam is once again being portrayed as the cold, callous, unfeeling, uncaring, selfish brother.
It's not right.
All I see on here is lots of Sam love
I am just worried of the way they write Sam this season. We protest because we love Sam as a character.
Before the spoiler I have high hopes for the brotherhood to return after the devastating S7. I like the bond that they share is explored. I can't think of any other way to strengthen the bond other than writing Sam trying to climb mountain and swim the ocean to find Dean. If in the end he failed I want him to try as hard as he can. Just like Dean to be miserable without his brother.
I'm not happy about the character assassination of Sam. It sucks. He was sacrificed in Season 4, and now he's being sacrificed again. Is it too much to show Sam caring about his brother? I never thought so but these spoilers make it seem that way!
It honestly does seem like the writers have something against Sam. Why must he be shown in this callous, uncaring way? Of all the things I imagined, Sam simply not giving a crap that Dean disappeared and not likely in a good place was NOT one of them!
To me this story makes Sam relatable in a way he hasn't been in many years. Demon blood, Ruby, vampire manoeuvres etc were arguably a kind of character assassination. This on the other hand is believable and healthy, going back to life when you have no alternative, no way help those you've lost. Of all the things Sam has done, running off to college was good life instinct, and this is too. It's characteristic and praiseworthy.
It is a possible recovery position. Hats off to Carver for coming up with a natural way to progress the character. I also like what Edlund (was it?) said about Sam maybe losing touch with what was worth saving in ordinary life over the years. This story reinvests him in the things that everyone counts as important. Gives him something worth fighting to protect. I can't see it as villainy.
I like the reset to Season 1 too. It's bold from Carver to go all the way back to the beginning after all these years. It's going to be a fresh new slant on that old Winchester way of life.
For the first time in many years, Dean has a story; Sam isn't being written as a monster, and we'll get a great collision of two utterly different experiences. I like the texture and resonance of flashback in this context. The search for the power source is an interesting long arc. And the impala is back... Plus we know Cas will be a part of the story, and many of the other favourites too. Would be amazing if John Winchester could be part of it, however briefly. Above all, I'm so pleased Dean has a story... Did I say?
For me on just about every level these are great spoilers. They make me trust the show runner and his team. No wonder everyone looked so cheerful at ComicCon.
Cheers!
As for Dean, I think h usually has a compelling storyline, but, he did get somewhat dull in season seven.vakhm I still have high hopes Carver will work out something fresh.
I find it amazing that anyone can ask that. I know some vague person on some other website said that, but this board is proof that we all love Sam! And we cannot assume that we will stop loving him in Season 8. Please let us not assume that. The season has not yet started.
There is so much that is lovable about Sam and Dean.
Dean because he is so incredibly brave, and heroic, and so loyal, committed, fiercely protective, and a great hunter! Sam because he is brave and heroic but also because he is so vulnerable inside, such an underdog, sweet and kind, and very gentle.
I really doubt that this will change in Season 8. If there are those who will hate Sam in Season 8, well, I think they never liked him.
However, I never see either one of the brothers as saving the world or innocent people on their own, although one may play a larger part in some particular incident. Mostly they do it together. Yes, Sam has always been shown as the hero, and so has Dean. It will be the same this season.
The whole series is about the two inseparable Winchester brothers who have sacrificed everything for each other including stints in Hell and deals of various natures.
I believe we saw Sam upset at the end of Season Seven for the disappearance of his brother, so either the character has been brainwashed in the time between end season seven and season eight, otherwise he would be on the track of his brother.
Sam is of course free to forget all about Dean and the hunting world and concentrate on normal, but it wouldn't be the Sam I've come to know and love for his ethics, morals and love and care for his brother Dean.
Crowley even told Sam: "That bone... has a bit of a kick. God weapons often do." So why wouldn't Sam assume that Dean's disappearance is a result of him using the weapon?
Sam was locked in a cage with Lucifer in hell and Dean still tried to get him out. Anyway, I still think that Sam must try to find Dean but he just doesn't succeed so then he eventually gives up.
Ahem. Anyway, I am thrilled beyond belief that Dean's storyline will be so integral to the mytharc! It seems that we will get some flashbacks of Dean in Purgatory and that his experiences there will be an essential part of the overall storyline this season. I've been waiting a long time for this type of storyline for Dean so I'm very happy about these spoilers.
RE: Sam not looking for Dean... I'm not sure what to think about that. I can't believe that Sam didn't understand what Crowley meant when he told Sam in the S7 finale that the weapon they used to kill Dick had "quite a kick." I just assumed that he realized that Dean & Cas were swept into Purgatory with Dick. Maybe he does realize that but thinks it's too risky to try to get Dean out? IDK.
Anyway, I'm very happy with the spoilers so far. And did I mention how gorgeous Jensen is here?
He would grieve if he thought Dean was really dead, but he probably would think he was in heaven, as he had been there many times before. (according to Ash) If so, he wouldn't try to retrieve him from there, would he?
He might believe it was Crowley who killed Dean. Why would Sam believe Dean would go to purgatory, where the monsters go? It might cross his mind but it wouldn't be feasible. We know Sam thinks Dean is heading for heaven when he goes. He said so in "Dark Side of the Moon".
Eventually he would have to live his life, or kill himself.
I don't know if I'm the only one, but I am profoundly curious/excited/worried about Dean's actions in Purgatory. The actions that he can't tell Sam about. Most likely, he's ashamed...but what's there to ashamed of when monsters are all there is in Purgatory. I mean, it's all about survival of the fittest (XD) right? Could what he did, be so terrible, that he'd place it above his own survival?
I always thought that Dean had an unexplored "darker" side, ever since the whole 'I tortured human souls and liked it' thing.
So excited for season 8!!!!!!!
And Sam is doing all he can do to survive in the outside world. He is moving on, and I think it's pretty brave because I know he is very sad without Dean. I don't need JC to show me that but I am sure he will in some way.
I think we have to understand that both brothers are not black and white, but shades of gray. That is why we love them.
I take it he had to be rather ruthless to survive down there and, to get out, he partnered up with a purgatory creature which will leave him somewhat indebted to that creature.
But I think it's high time and look forward to seeing the character portrayed as a hero again. Something which IMO has not been done for years now.
I wouldn't mind exploring the character being harder, colder, more ruthless but I never thought the torturing in hell thing was any sign of some hidden dark side.
At the point he started torturing, the very absence of pain would have already felt lke the biggest joy imaginable. So the character can hardly judge correctly what he felt down in hell.
And lets be realistic, 99 % of people would have jumped up immediately to torture others. Probably "enjoying" it, too. I wouldn't think it pointed to a dark side in any of them.
Stuff they did with all their faculties intact on Earth? Yup. But anything under THAT extreme duress? Nope.
I know I wouldn't last 5 seconds, let alone 30 years!
It sounds great actually, I've always liked his dark streaks too (seasons 2 and 4 come to mind). And I would be thrilled to explore more of that. I'd love for him to have some fire in him again, some badassery and hunterwits!!
BUT what I don't want is him to come back as a "Woe is me"-Dean. I want him to come back harder, yes, but not as a depressed morose man who has lost his will and spark to live (like the last "few" seasons).
As much as I'm sad and sickened about Sams "story", I feel thankful that atleast Dean has something interesting for him. I do hope that they can make both of them look good in the end.
Um, so why don't we all wait to get pissed about season 8 until after we've seen it? I mean, honestly, give it a chance to impress you before you just assume it's going to suck. I understand being worried about it based on spoilers, but please remember that they are spoilers only. No one has given us a detailed episode (or seasonal) synopsis. If they told us every last detail and explained all the character's motivations, there would theoretically be no point in watching the show at all. They are being deliberately vague and I'm sure there's a lot more going on besides "Sam abandoned Dean and is living with Lisa 2.0, Dean is pissed, blah blah blah."
So.... obviously everyone has a right to their own opinion and expressing that opinion and all that good stuff, but could we keep it civil? No name calling? And try to cut back on the prophecies of doom? I love this fandom, but honestly I've never encountered so many people who are so willing to conclude that the show will suck based on a few minutes of interviews. Let it play out. And if you think it sucks then, by all means, feel free to say "I told you so".
But why can't a fan express disappointment? Should I be happy no matter what? I'm not a sheep, sorry.
And after watching 7 seasons, I'd like to be able to keep my hopes, I'd like to think they're treating the characters well, but it seems it's asking to much and I'm a bad fan.
I'm sorry if I spoil the fun for other fans, but you'll get your fun with the season, let me vent a bit at least since that's all I'll get.
Me too Linda, i don't blame others for having differing opinions but there is so much bashing of the show (which hasn't even aired yet) that i am wondering why those "fans" keep coming back here? It makes it unpleasant for the newish fans like me who were hoping to discuss our excitement over the show.
I don't mind reading one or two similar negative posts but when there is post after post (by the same people) on each site entry) it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Where is the love?
Fan comes from fanatical, don't forget that bit
We have plenty of great, level headed discussions, especially during the season when new episodes air. Just please excuse this thread and don't judge the entire site based on it. We are happy fans, I promise! As a matter of fact, I might post a happiness thread this week. I usually do to counter all the negativity. I can say that at Comic-Con everyone was very upbeat and positive about the new season. More than other seasons I think.
I'm finally back in my time zone from Comic-Con, and as you all may have noticed, I haven't been moderating comments. I haven't had the access or the time, and Ardeospina is away on vacation too.
I'm going to start going through all these comments later, but I have already gotten a few "reported comment" messages. Those will be dealt with eventually, I promise. In the meantime, keep the tempers and the "offense" over comments down to a minimum. The number one most important rule here is respecting others. Everyone has an opinion, and all are welcome, even unpopular ones. Obnoxious behavior on the other hand, not allowed.
Alice's comment on one of these threads (sorry, found it once and now I've forgotten where, oops!) about there seeming to be a much more positive vibe and definite direction for the story give me more hope that this season will be an improvement over s7
Why is it suddenly his and sam's destiny to Hunt? Shouldn't Sam (Dean has already freely chosen to hunt) be free to choose to Hunt for himself?
Sam, to me, has a very strong sense of self that Dean doesn't possess. Sam tends to be able to view himself as an individual, with needs and wants of his own, while Dean tends to solely identify himself through his role as hunter/brother. So it makes sense to me that Sam can compartmentalize the hunter and lock him away, while Dean finds it much harder to separate himself from what he sees as his purpose.
At the end of the day, Dean has the right to ask Sam to join him, and I can understand why he would question why Sam isn't out there hunting. I think Sam also has the right to make the decision for himself, which I assume he will as he is a strong, independent character who has consistently chosen his own path.
It seems Sam joins, but we don't know under what conditios, of course. But I really think, at the very end, if he joins his brother is because he actually wants to, not because he feels coerced or that he has no other choice.
I really hope so.
I find destiny an odd choice of words for Dean's renewed sense of purpose, but I doubt that Jensen, on the fly in an interview, meant destiny in the same context as it was given in S5. I personally am excited by the idea of show letting Dean climb out of the rut he's been shoved in for years now and actually gain some measure of satisfaction and enjoyment from hunting again.
Yes, sometimes I am capable of optimism about spoilers. Amazing.
I'm thinking Purgatory doesn't have a human population that needed a protector. So why? So what purpose did he discover that hunting was for im? I mean I'd think Purgatory: It was kill or be killed....survival of the Fittest. How does that translate into Hunting is our duty. Does it include the 'saving people' as well? Does Dean see peop...HUMANITY worth saving? Does he now believe humanity DOESNT want to die?
I geuss I want to know that Dean wants to hunt not so he can kill monsters because then he's fulfilling his own assesment of being nothing then a killer. I HOPE Dean sees the value in teh reason behind Hunting...saving people.
The operative phrase, of course, is if that's the way show wants to go. I hope that it is, since that's seemed to be a core piece of his characterization since the first season, until Sam and Dean's motivations for hunting became completely muddled in the latter seasons. So a return to form would be great.
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