Let's Discuss: Is Sam Winchester Really Okay?
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 14:23 | Last Updated on Tuesday, 22 November 2011 14:44 | Written by Alice Jester | 
| 
| 
Ever since I started reviewing Supernatural in season three, I’ve taken some enjoyment here and there in performing a close study of Sam’s character (and gotten tons of “Sam fan” accusations because of it). He’s quite an enigma most of the time because he tends to internalize everything. It makes for hours of fun speculating. Still, there have usually been clues throughout the years as to what path he’s on.
Having said that, this is the most perplexed I’ve been about him since season two. I’ve often said they didn’t try to develop his character until season three, and now I’m not sure if they’ve regressed back to those days of season two where we had no clue what was going on in that head of his. Allow me to elaborate further.
Back in Supernatural’s season two, when John Winchester died, Sam wasn’t exactly given a visible grieving process. He cried in “Everybody Loves A Clown,” gave Dean a speech at the end of that same episode, and that was it. Even when he had his infamous meltdown at the end of “Heart” there wasn’t a lot of build up to that. I’ve always believed he had his meltdown because of everything building up inside not only over John’s death but mostly over his fears of his impending destiny of evil -- and man does it break my heart to see what happened to him since then. He had something to cry about. You’ve got to admit though, his busting into tears came out of left field considering he seemed so well adjusted prior to that. We were never really let into his head. Yeah, there were small signs like him getting drunk in “Playthings”, but “Born Under A Bad Sign” turned out to be Meg. At the end of that episode, Sam wasn’t showing too much pain over the experience. He did what he always did, he withdrew and dealt with it internally.
Flash forward now to season seven. Sam seems to have recovered from his Hell trauma just fine, saying how he’s okay with the hallucinations and that he has a handle on things. Fantastic! Glad he’s doing better, now we can...oh wait, do you think that there’s actually more to that? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, I just wasn’t looking hard enough.
Ever since “The Girl Next Door” Sam’s been insisting to Dean that he’s not a time bomb and has everything under control. It wasn’t until the end of “Season 7, Time For a Wedding!” that Dean could admit that Sam really has pulled it all together. Now Sam is giving the same speech to Bobby. It’s my presumption that because this conversation keeps coming up so much, Sam is not fine. Either that or he really is fine and the writers are using the issue for some scenery chewing.
The question is, should he be fine? I know, dumb question. Neither of them should be fine. Any realistic scenario would have had both of them, as Dean put it in “The Real Ghostbusters,” howling all the way to the nuthouse. Are there clues in Supernatural season seven that I’m missing? Little chinks in the armor that have potential to open into major chasms? I have poured through “How to Win Friends and Influence Monsters” and I haven’t seen anything. Or maybe Sam is taking a page from Dean’s book and worrying more about Dean than himself, which leaves him open to be blindsided later.
Sam recently separated from Dean twice, for ten days in between “Slash Fiction” and “The Mentalists” and four days before “Season 7, Time For A Wedding.” Considering we got zero glimpses as to what really happened during that time alone, is this Sam’s new way of dealing with his “umbrella of crazy”? Or am I overanalyzing those breaks, which could have been inserted just for the sake of Dean’s drama. What do you think Sam has been doing during that time?
I’m forced to look backward at Sam’s patterns, see if there’s potential here for a major crack. I love season three Sam because he had this whole gradual descent into darkness going. He was doing things outside of his comfort zone, but for the purpose of saving Dean. What was great about that season though is we got to see through those tiny cracks in his psyche. It finally opened up his character to us. Remember that devastated glare at the end of “Mystery Spot” after Dean told his clowns or midgets joke? The long ordeal was over, and Sam was so not okay. I keep waiting for such signs here, but unfortunately, we’re being led to believe everything is just peachy and there’s nothing there to see.
I just the other day pulled out “The Man Who Knew Too Much,” for I remember loads of foreshadowing there. It was the grand build up of season long prior warnings coming from others like Castiel, Death, and Crowley. Worst case scenario happened. The wall came down and Sam for a bit was trapped in his own mind, pieces of himself facing one another. Could it be all that hype over Sam’s wall breaking was always just for the events through “Hello, Cruel World?” Would the writers actually spend an entire season building up to the psychotic break only to sweep it under the rug in two episodes? The sad part is, I have no clues that go against that statement. I want to so believe they wouldn’t do that.
After all that build up, season seven has given us the new “zen” Sam. He’s exercising, which going by “The Third Man” is something he’s probably always done, he’s eating salads and protein bars, something, well, he’s always done, and he’s not heavily drinking, only having the occasional beer with Dean. Well that’s something new. He’s gotten mindless on this saving the world thing, in that somebody’s got to do it. He isn’t getting very philosophical about how the world keeps wanting to end itself like Dean has so cleverly noticed.
Sam’s convinced himself that despite having a scrambled brain that leaks traumas of Hell and his life (possibly) and has hallucinations of Lucifer (definitely), there are others that are worse off and he’s okay. There are others worse off? They’re the ones living in happy land in those mental institutions that house about half the hunters that have gone through far less. I know, accepting that would drive him crazy, but man, can nothing crack this guy anymore?
We did get one glimpse into Sam’s brain when he was carbon copied by a leviathan in “Slash Fiction.” He couldn’t believe how Sam was coping with the “Satan vision” all the time and essentially called Sam unstable. Could it be this was just the POV from a monster? Has Sam truly learned how to overcome this and it’s not so bad as it seems?
Has Sam truly become indestructible? Is it me or does this new attitude seem so freaking off? Not human? He actually seems robotic to me now, which is the polar opposite of Dean. Then again, Dean’s traumas with Hell were swept under the rug, and sure they probably plague him, but it’s the feeling of loss that’s consuming him right now. Ben and Lisa, Castiel, everyone else that’s left him. His fear of losing Sam is too crippling and he’s waiting for everything to come crashing down on him (which it might, especially if he loses Bobby). What is Sam’s greatest fear right now? Losing control? Does he also share Dean’s impending sense of doom?
At least we’re seeing Sam smile again. That’s something I guess. So what do you think? Is this just a case that this guy has been through so much that nothing will get to him now, or it’s all a front and he is that time bomb he insists he isn’t? Do you like how his character development has been approached? What would you like to see from Sam in the second half of this season and beyond?
For all the latest Supernatural info and article links, follow The Winchester Family Business on Twitter at @WinFamBusiness
| < Prev | Next > |
|---|
Comments
One of the moments that really gets me is the beginning of "The Mentalists" when Dean finds him in the diner. Sam looked a bit panicked at Dean's appearance, like he didn't trust what he was seeing. And it wasn't until the waiter acknowledged Dean that he relaxed and spoke. If Sam thought Dean there was a hallucination, obviously things aren't as good as he's saying.
I was also stuck just by his wistful tone and his body language during the conversation with Bobby in "How to Win Friends and Influence Monsters"--the way he rubbed his hand. I dunno, it just came across like Sam thinks he's dealing, but he's much closer to the edge than he realizes.
At the same time, I don't think he'll let himself fall apart while he knows Dean is struggling. One of the brothers needs to be stable enough to help the other, after all. I'm expecting some resolution with Dean's apathy after whatever happens with Bobby (don't kill him, please!) and that's when Sam's going to tip over the edge. And it's not going to be pretty because he's kept everything bottled inside, as he's always done. What might cause it, I couldn't say. But I fully expect a breakdown in the second half.
If they were really interested in what Sams hell had done to him there was nothing stopping them the first half , they dropped Sams trauma in episode 3 with no build up to zen Sam and instead of this boy getting genuine treatment story wise we get museli man . Once they decided Dean was going to have the emotional sl and thats not down to Dean . Sam was never going to get a look in. People can disagree but I have seen enough
Strong Sam is fine had it been done properly and with Sam being allowed to deal with and process what happened but they didnt do that . It was too fast and Sam was ok and dealing before you could blink.
And now even if they do bring it back up how? they have made him look so ok that it would seem forced and plot driven rather than done for Sam .
I'd rather it not happen now at all, I want Sam to stay strong, to be the awesome hunter we know him to be, be Dean and Bobby's rock, take lead in the fight against the Leviathans. I want Sam to kick ass, make friends and meet a girl or two along the way. I don't think he or Sam fans deserve for him to be used as nothing but a plot device.
If the writers don't want to write him a storyline thats fine but at least let him be a kick ass hunter/leader and let him have a life of his own.
One emo Winchester a season is more than enough for me.
Stay strong Sam and be the hero we know you are.
Under Kripke, it seemed better, but even then there was some struggling for dual development at the same time.
It does appear that Sam may be heading for a fall second half of the season, because of the little touches, when the writer's remember, that are sprinkled throughout some of the episodes, ie hand touching this last one, also as Purplehaired Wonder said, the Mentalist restaurant scene at the beginning of the episode, and as Alice pointed out, the LeviaSam's comment about SatanVision.
Although, the big question is whether if he breaks, is that break going to be used to further propel along Dean's development this season, as in, how does Dean react, does it change Dean, etc., or will it be used to give insight into Sam.
Season 6 was all about Sam and what was wrong with him building up to the wall falling, while this Season seems to be all about Dean. Can the writer's actually manage to develop them both during second half of season? I don't know, am interested in finding out.
Sam is a McGuffin he may get the storyline or the whats up with SAM but because Dean is the heart and pov of the show he gets the reaction and exploration while we get very little on how Sam actually feels. Dean is always heavily involved wether it is Sams sl or his own and we are never left wondering or guessing.
Sam needed what makes a storyline worth while heart a pov and exploration within that situation. Regardless of what Sam has Dean gets those important ingrediants. Say they do bring up Sams hell second half how much will be for Sam and how much will it be for Dean to react to ?.
I understand what you're saying. I agree that at least for the entire first half, it was from Dean's POV. This almost had to be that way, since there essentially wasn't a "Sam", as you mentioned, just that souless guy, which was, by the way he had to integrate the pieces together during the finale, just a small percentage of what makes up Sam in his entirety.
But I also didn't see any Dean growth either. It was basically a re-hash over and over again, of "something is wrong with Sam" he's got to be "fixed". He didn't learn to cope, didn't spiral in to denial, didn't cry. He's been very one note, imo, which is just "angry dean". I must admit, I'm a little worried that he is now just "depressed dean", but hoping that the writer's are making him hit "rock bottom" (oh, Bobby, how I fear for you) in order to bring him back up-hence I think (fingers crossed) he'll get some solid development.
Sam's character seems to be developing this first half, struggle w/ hallucinations to finding inner peace, but unlike what they are doing with Dean this season, the writer's haven't laid any groundwork as to how this is happening. It definitely feels like a gap and I'll be interested to see if the writing team somehow recons to give us that foundation. I hope so, otherwise, imo, it's just lazy writing.
I have to admit that overall, I still am enjoying this season. Of course, there has been some frustrations, but that's only because I know that Kripke gave us some really strong characters in Sam and Dean, and carefully crafted a complex and multi-layered universe for them. With that kind of foundation, I hate to see it not live up to it's full potential.
Sorry such a long reply Sharon. I'm always so worried about not explaining myself clearly enough and accidentally upsetting somebody.
I'm not here to bash Season 6, but my big issue with it was the inconsistent and poorly done arcing. I'm afraid Season 7 is following the same pattern: the Leviathan are the "main" plot, while on the side Sam is always TELLING us how he thinks/feels, without us actually being shown much. Then at the end of the season the Hell memories will suddenly become super important, even though we've seen little of them.
I hope that made sense--I tried to make it clear. Basically I'm just worried about how they handle this arc: not the story, but how the story is shown to us, the viewers. So far this season is shaping up to be much stronger than last. I just pray the writers don't shoot themselves in the foot by continuing to tell-not-show the Sam/Lucifer arc.
I don't know precisely where the writers are headed for both boys but I have learned to be patient. Every single season needs to be looked at as a whole and season 7 is no different. We're not even halfway through so I don't understand where the complaints about the writers going nowhere with character development, or story arc or other things comes from.
Now, to answer the original question. No, Sam is not okay but for the time being he is "managing it" even if he is only fooling himself.
Now, what I don't understand is all this griping about Sam not having a story line, it's all about Dean. Sorry, but I just don't see it that way. I find both characters are well defined. And really, do we want to see Sam as a drooling mess? Everyone deals with trauma in their own way. Doesn't mean he's 100% by any means. I do think he will break down at some point. But Dean is the one that told him to make him "stone number one and build on that" and I think that is what he is trying his best to do. We have seen glimpses of how he's coping, waiting to acknowledge Dean in the diner, rubbing his palm, etc. Now with Bobby down, Sam & Dean will have to pull together even more.
Sorry that was a little too long for just a reply post!
Thank you so much for this. I definitely feel something is off with Sam this season. It's been bothering me for awhile.
Like you suggested, it was stated again and again that if Sam was to remember all the horrors visited upon him in Hell, his mind would likely crack from the pressure. Hence the wall was built. Once it was in place, the warnings were "Fear for the collapse of the wall!"
Well, Castiel brought that wall down, and Sam seems about as troubled by it as by a hangnail! Although I shouldn't knock hangnails. I had one this summer, and my finger got so badly infected that I was on my way to the emergency department when the infection started draining.
And that's my point. A red, swollen hand because of a camping trip was almost enough to force me to a hospital. Sam has a century of hell memories and yet it seems like it's no big deal for him. Or at least that's the way it's being written.
I find it frustrating on a number of levels. To begin with, it knocks the credibility factor right on the bum. For most of us, when something really REALLY bad happens, it changes us in some way. It doesn't always mean big changes. Sometimes it's small changes. For instance, after a serious car accident you might never drive that same route again. You're not constantly troubled by flashbacks of the accident, but you know going near the scene would create issues.
Supernatural is set in a somewhat unbelievable world what with the large population of demons, angels, witches, vampires and werewolves (although I do keep an open mind, because you just never know). But what has always grounded the program is the fact Sam & Dean react like real people, with all their attendant emotional strengths and weaknesses. Believing the Winchester Brothers are human is what allows to suspend our disbelief about everything else.
Sam just seems too superhuman to me. All he has to do is rub the scar on his palm (which reminds him of Dean, which I think is a nice touch, but still..) and he's fine? I just don't buy it.
There should be a few more ramifications. Again, they don't have to be big. He doesn't have to descend into a catatonic state, or be deluged with delusions. He could have a few memory lapses a la the Swiss Cheese mind of Dr. Samuel Beckett on "Quantum Leap". He could have lost a few abilities, like no longer shooting as straight, or not be able to get the angles right in a game of pool, or even just mix up his right hand and his left hand occasionally. (All great minds do that, don't they?)
The way I see it, superhumans are invincible, and that creates a problem. If someone can never be hurt, or will never falter, then there is no need to be concerned for them, or fear for their safety. That's poor drama.
Sam is also tending towards a Saint these days (“others have it lots worse than me”… There is some truth in that, if you look at the hardships faced by people in some of the world’s hotspots, but it seems too magnanimous for me) I find it too accepting, even for Sam who has accepted being a hunter.
Also, I’m finding his reactions somewhat Out Of Character (although I’m not sure his character, or Dean’s have ever been fully realized. Fanfictions often seem to create more wholly complex versions of the brothers than the writers.) In the same way that Dean has always been burdened by excess guilt, and a sometimes-suffocating need to protect, Sam has a few ongoing character traits too. Think Anger, Pride, Revenge. Those are usually seen as negative emotions. And it’s true, they’re what made him susceptible to Ruby’s deceptions, and his addiction to demon blood. It’s also true he’s been quite successful at reining them in.
But if he is as broken inside as the writers suggest, but don’t show (“All Satanvision, all the time”), then Anger, Pride and Revenge should likely come back into play. Maybe anger at what happened to him in the Pit could spur him to heal even more. Or, he could take out that rage at an inappropriate time on a hunt, or maybe even on his brother in an interesting dramatic twist. Abused people often become abusers. Pride in his ability to survive in the Pit could help him pull himself together in a situation that seems desperate. Revenge, or its more benign equivalent could take the form of “I’ll show Lucifer that I can cope”. Those emotions should peep out once in a while. We moderate our less desirable traits, but I don’t think they disappear entirely.
What I’m not seeing from Sam is passion - for himself, for holding it together, for Dean (even though he did talk to Bobby about him. It’s not like the scene from Fresh Blood, where he begs Dean to just go back to being his brother), even for the job. Maybe that’s because Sam is holding on by his fingertips and can’t afford to rock his calm boat. But I’d like to know that.
I think the problem is that not knowing Sam’s inner thoughts does a disservice to him, and secondarily to Dean. Seeing Sam struggle more would give us a glimpse into the working of his brain. Seeing him struggle might allow both brothers to talk about Hell and their experiences there. It’s such rich emotional territory to mine.
At present, Sam makes me think of driver who’s been pulled over and asked to walk the centre line. He’s walking down that yellow stripe so carefully and cautiously. It could be because he’s a drunk. Or, it could be because he’s a klutz. Or, it could be because he’s a serial killer with a body in the trunk, and doesn’t want to make the police suspicious.
But, just like the cops, we’re no wiser until he blows into the breathalyzer, or in our case let’s out a little of what’s going on in that brain.
Thanks & sorry I was so lengthy.
Pragmatic Dreamer
I thought Bobby was wrong in telling Sam to take care of himself and not worry about Dean, especially since Bobby obviously got the murder/suicide message Dean left on his phone.
I don't know where they are taking Sam, neither do I don't know where they are taking Dean. What I think will happen is that Sam will be the one to pull Dean back from the ledge he is on in some fashion, and Dean is on the ledge. If that happens, I will be happy.
I'm not surprised to see all the complaints about Sam's POV or his inner self, although I never find myself confused about where Sam is at because Dean is usually reacting to where Sam is at.
How I see it is that the season's story is still being laid out. It's not unusual for SPN to be slow out of the gate. Last season we didn't know what the story was until Ep. 20, and the show always seems to (1) lag in the middle and (2) kind of change directions mid-season. I'd rather that be different, but that's the way things are.
I think the mistake this season, though, was the big build-up from Comic Con forward about Sam going to suffer worse than anyone else in the universe with his worst Hell experience ever. I stated way back then that that story could never be delivered, and I still don't think it can, despite SG saying that Sam would have severe and lasting trauma from it. I'm hoping it doesn't go in that direction as, right now, there are so many more possibilities that I would find much more interesting.
This is the best I have liked Sam since the end of S3 and I hope the show doesn't veer off into another Sam problem again.
I remember all the complaints as to how Dean's hell was dealt with by just giving him a bottle and sending him on his way. Right now, I'd thank the stars if Sam had even that bottle. He isn't just coping, he isn't just fine, he's better than ever.
I'd say they've turned him into a robot, but even Cameron from TSCC had more emotions than Sam does right now.
I agree that I would also like to see the story evolve along these lines. It's a role reversal that we haven't seen since S3. It also would be a way to show some growth for both characters. While Sam failed to "save" Dean at the end of S3, thus leading into a down spiral, if he were able to find the strength even though his psyche is fractured to "save" Dean this Season, it would show how far he's come and although we've seen Sam sacrifice to save the World, we haven't seen him save his brother, which has a lot of heart in it.
The only thing, for me, is if they do decide to go this route, I think the writer's do need to give us more background as to how Sam got from being broken to being strong enough to save Dean. If that means having a psychotic break and being able to pull himself together for the sake of Dean, I would want the writers to show us how he was able to do that.
Also, Sam faced his Hell memories believing they would detroy him for the sole reason that he wouldn't leave Dean alone. There have been lots of smaller instances as well when Sam has had Dean's back.
I like strong, healthy Sam too, but only if it makes sense for where his character is at that time. If the story they've been telling is that any human being could not possibly survive what Sam went through, then finding out that Sam is "ok" with all of this with no supernatural intervention just leaves me scratching my head.
Quoting Ginger:
I think Bobby has recognized that there's cause to worry about both brothers right now.
Quoting Ginger:
If you've grown accustomed to taking your cues to what's going on with Sam by reading Dean's reactions, then you must understand the frustration from fans who care about Sam's character. You would probably be frustrated if your only hints about what was going on with Dean came from Sam's reactions.
Quoting Ginger:
I think the biggest mistake was not mapping out a plan for both Sam and Dean's stories to steadily progress throughout the season. Fans will put up with a hot storyline being put on hold for a few episodes, but half a season or longer is too much.
Quoting Ginger:
The show has been nothing but Sam problem, Dean problem, Sam problem, Dean problem ... so good luck with that!
For me that is a BIG problem because we are seeing where Dean THINKS Sam is at, but he is not necessarily correct. Throughout the series we have seen Dean NOT know or not understand Sam's emotions completely and at times he does not understand at all. After hunting together for a year, Dean was surprised that Sam was planning to marry Jess. He didn't know until Azazel told him while possessing John. Dean had NO IDEA that Sam had been praying for "a long time". During season three, Dean blithely assumed that Sam would grieve briefly then tra-la along with his life after Dean went to Hell.
In After School Special, Dean dismissed Sam's misery about changing schools and always being an outsider, because it didn't bother him. He simply couldn't relate.
Dean's problems are with guilt and loss. He has not had problems with feeling like a freak, which are Sam's issues.
Dean is also operating on incomplete information. Most people change after leaving home and going to college. Sam didn't just leave for college, he was on his own, learning to be on his own and forming opinions and coping mechanisms that weren't part of the like he shared with Dean. Dean also didn't live through the time during Mystery Spot. Sam certainly didn't inform him immediately after the experience and considering the rest of the time was spent barreling towards Dean's doom, it seems unlikely that Sam filled him in at all. Even if he did, the kind of trauma that Sam experienced can't be explained and would have massive consequences on his reactions and emotional state and Dean was not there to see how Sam would have changed due to that, just as Dean was not there to see how Sam was affected after Dean went to Hell.
Gauging Sam by Dean's reactions is not an accurate picture of Sam. It is only an accurate picture of how Dean sees Sam. Dean and Sam are different people. No one is completely able to understand another person so viewing Sam solely by how Dean reacts to them is NOT truly giving a accurate picture of Sam. Perhaps if Sam had been allowed to express his feelings and reactions in seasons 4-6 you would have liked him better, however since Sam's actions were always viewed through Dean's eyes, I can understand why you grew disillusioned. I didn't, but I had to draw a lot of conclusions on my own, because the show was resolutely keeping Sam silent on his feelings and reasons for his actions.
And of course, none of this is on Sam at all is it? It's all Dean's fault for misunderstanding, and not in any way, shape or form caused by the fact Sam might not have bothered sharing any of this with Dean, or might have given Dean the impression he'd be fine after Dean went to Hell by virtue of the fact he didn't – and doesn't – demonstrate very high regard for his brother?
Perhaps you should think about how Sam sees Dean and how that informs his treatment of Dean, which has often been disrespectful and dismissive.
…the show was resolutely keeping Sam silent on his feelings and reasons for his actions
I disagree. It was made totally clear that Sam was driven by his need for power and control. You just didn't like what you saw, so you deny the insight ever happened.
It was not made totally clear why Sam made certain decisions along the way. You have chosen the most negative view of them, partially because Dean expressed those views as to why HE thought Sam was doing things. The few times Sam was allowed to speak for himself, in Monster at the End of the Book, he told Chuck that he was afraid that Dean was being pressured by the angels to do something that Dean couldn't handle. He didn't long for power. You are ignoring one of the few times Sam actually spoke for himself.
You don't like Sam and have decided that his motives were petty, evil and indefensible. That is your right. You do not have the right to tell me that I am wrong to say that I don't think the show has adequately explored Sam's mindset and that we have never received a complete view of Sam. I resent the idea that only you are right in your assessment of how the show presents Sam. Many posters here disagree with you. It is very presumptuous of you to tell us that we are ALL wrong and you are the font of truth.
For my money I think that, as some have stated, Sam *thinks* he's doing okay and really he's teetering on the edge.
I think we are missing some crucial time in the three weeks where Sam, Dean and Bobby were at Rufus' cabin. I say this because Dean and Bobby talk about how Sam "improved" over that time i.e. less hallucinations. And since then, as you point out Alice, there have been other instances of separation that we aren't privy to - who knows what happened to Sam in there. What I believe, is that Sam has developed a way to identify and ignore the hallucinations that are happening. He aknowledges them to himself, but doesn't address them, per se.
I'm certain that this is leading somewhere and at the most inopportune moment, crash goes Sam and all his zen. Maybe on some level Sam thinks he deserves this and therefore accepts it (not saying he deserves it, but maybe he believes he does). I feel like the writers are trying to move both boys storylines ahead and intend to have them converge in some way, which is why all the emphasis on how they worry about each other but not themselves, etc.
It's really hard to say at this point. I think after the mid-season finale we will have more information (again, I could very well eat those words come December 5th).
He's really in uncharted territory, because the hell damage, according to Castiel, should have either killed him or left him a screaming vegetable. But Sam defied the odds by insisting on assimilating the damage and surviving it.
But surviving it is not the same as being fine. I think Sam is uniquely fitted to surviving the damaged soul. He's feared his own soul his whole life, because of the demon blood--he didn't know what made him different, but he knew something did and he was scared of it. He's always internalized his fears and outwardly tried to be as normal as possible. That's his M.O.
Now he has a definable presence in his mind that he can call his damage, and that actually feels more in control than he's sometimes been in the past. But I think the screams when he was coming out of the love spell indicated when his guard is down, there's trouble.
He's trying to be as stable as he can--but I suspect Bobby's death will push him over the edge. Hopefully, not until he's pulled Dean back from his ledge. In most relationships, there is a fluctuation in who's giving and who's getting help. Same with Sam and Dean, I think.
If Sam is truly fine and has gotten over most of his issues, as well as getting a handle on the Lucifer hallucinations to the point that they don't interfere with his daily life at all, I cry foul. This is not believable character development, and as you say Alice, not like a human being would behave. I mean, it's not just the hallucinations. It's all those decades in Hell, what RoboSam did, and other, older issues. Now he's fine? It's like he got a lobotomy or something. I feel that, in the space of just a few episodes, the writers have hollowed out the character. He's practically perfect, and nobody wants to watch a perfect character.
If in fact Sam is NOT fine, then the story is not being told well, because there should be hints that all is not fine. The tension should be building while we head for the inevitable breakdown. But there's nothing and the story has lost its momentum. Sam is being portrayed as being fine, of if they go back to it after Christmas, it will probably feel like it comes out of nowhere.
So, either way they decide to go, the writers have already failed to tell a compelling story so no, I am not happy with Sam's development during season 7.
I don't understand. It seems to me that the first rule of writing is to stay with the "hot" story, the one with momentum, and milk it for all it's worth before you move on to the next one. It took a whole year of soulless Sam and then the Wall, to get to the payoff when the wall fell, and the story was cut short. Why? It's all so backwards to me. Sam's issues were the most urgent ones and should have been dealt with before Dean's more chronic ones. Also, Dean's burgeoning depression would have fit perfectly with trying to help his traumatized brother. I really don't get it.
Okay... my rant is done!
I knew to a degree we would need a Sam that functions but it has gone so far the other way that the whole sl has meant nothing. Sam is the brother that has suffered the most neglected emotionally from the writing and this was a perfect opportunity to rectify some of that.
But outside of those first two episodes we have got nothing . And if they decided to have Sam like this what was stopping them from exploring Sam in this?. It is the lack of interest that bothers me . Bobby gets more insight we learn more how he feels than Sam.
You pull the wall down you should of had the heart and Care for Sam to follow up not create another version of Souless Sam and move on
I've been wondering what Lucifer has been saying to Sam and whether this is more of a psychic connection rather than hallucinations. If there is a connection, maybe Lucifer is healing his vessel for some purpose. I'm also wondering if Stockholm syndrome might be playing a role here.
Frankly I am torn. In Season 4 and some in 5 I had faith that if we weren't being told something, there was a master plan at work, and that the writers knew how the story would end. After season 6 I lost faith that they know their ending.
That said. I am starting to think like cd28 that Sam is experiencing more of a psychic connection to Lucifer. If the writers hold to their own canon then an angel and his vessel are always connected. I find it interesting, CD28 that you think perhaps Lucifer is even healing Sam from beyond. I do wonder because Sam is way healthier than he should be.
Also, Sam is not all that emotional. Yes, in character he has a lot of negative traits like pride, anger and revenge. He doesn't have it anymore, he hasn't actually since his wall was put in place. I find this lack of emotion, this lack of Sam's personality (be it good or bad) to be DULL. He's a really bland character at the moment and the writers need to do something about it. [yawn]
Maybe Sam is less emotional and more like an angel? Hmmm, he does seem a little manic at times. His comment to Bobby that he "was okay" with Lucifer being with him startled Bobby. I think Sam picked up on it and covered himself by saying that he had it better than others.
Maybe Sam doesn't mind Lucifer's presence. Maybe it could be useful to the story.
I just want my favorite character to stop being boring.
I’ve been very disappointed in season 7 so far. Of the nine episodes aired, there are 5 that I haven’t rewatched, at all, which is unheard of for me. There were two I deleted the minute I watched them (though I did download them again, I like to have full collections....). However, I know that my dislike of season 7 thus far is entirely my fault. I made assumptions going in to the season that things would be one way, and they weren’t. I assumed that, as for the past 6 years it had been Dean’s POV to (mainly) Sam’s actions that this season, when it’s Dean’s actions, it would be Sam’s POV that the audience would get. It hasn’t been. It’s Dean’s POV to Dean’s actions.
This lack of insight makes Sam Winchester is a very difficult character to understand. Because he is so veiled, and most of his motivations have been debated off-screen, it’s hard to know what drives him. I still genuinely don’t know for certain what led Sam to say 'yes' to Lucifer. I can assume I know the reasons why but I can’t know the reasons why. Did he say ‘yes’ because of guilt, honour, courage, loyalty, obligation? Because it wasn't told, or even indicated, there’s nothing concrete about Sam to take from it. The same applies to many of Sam’s decisions over the years. Why did he start drinking blood/using powers/sleeping with Ruby? Was he giving in to his dark side, was is despair, was it anger or was it vengeance etc? So for all that we’ve seen Sam do, we know very little about him. We appreciate the consequences of his actions on others, but not on himself.
The show has, in my opinion, deliberately spurned, for whatever reasons, many chances to explore Sam or to show the impact that Dean’s actions have had on his brother. Instead they choose to have Sam be wrong, apologise for someone else’s actions, have him disappear for lengths at a time, or physically and metaphorically gag him (my God, that gag in 7.06 was quite symbolic). As well as that, by having Sam declare himself guilt-free and be so at ease with what happened to him (and is still happening to him), the writers have built a wall for Sam far greater and more impenetrable than the one Death built. So either Lucifer is pure shite as a torturer, Sam is a robot or Gandhi will soon be worshipping Sam Winchester as the most placid, understanding man on earth. Perhaps Sam is like Ned Flanders when, after being an angry child and a couple of years of ‘spanking therapy’ Flanders just snapped and suddenly he was ‘okley dokley’. This seems akin to what is happening with Sam. It’s all built up and built up and then, unknownst to anyone, Sam quietly snaps, and so everything is ‘fine’.
This doesn’t play true with me for a number of reasons. Number one, the show has held up Sam’s anger, quest for revenge or unwillingness to let things go as the catalyst for many events in the show. It was what drove him all the way through to season 6. Now, I’d almost believe Sam was a sedated shape shifter were it not for the fact that I know Sam’s not a sedated shape shifter (I think...).
The second issue is one which is equally as puzzling. We know that Lucifer is in Sam’s head and he’s mucking about with him inside there, fair enough. And, if I cast aside all rational thinking, I think I can understand that pressing down on a hand wound could keep Lucifer at bay (except that the scar has to be long healed so it can't be the 'different type of pain' that's keeping Lucifer at bay).... However, the hellacinations are not just limited to Sam’s mental state, there was also a physical element to them and to be honest, I don’t think that pressing on a hand wound could keep seizures at bay (because if it were I know a few people who’d be slicing and dicing away at themselves!). The power of positive thinking can only do so much and in fairness, running ain't all that beneficial (unless you're into tight calves and vomiting...) So that leads me to ask ‘What happened to the seizures?’ or even the small space outs Sam had? Does Sam now know when he’s about to have a bad spell and so heads off into the forest etc for a few days at a time in order to deal? This could be one explanation as to why he kept leaving in season 7 but of course, that would be a monumentally stupid thing for Sam to do.
I’m also now very nervous about how Sam’s break will play out, if it plays out; I’m no longer convinced that it will. I was hugely optimistic at the end of season 6 and also after the first two episodes of season 7 but I’ve now learned the danger of assumption. As I said earlier, there is a huge amount left to be dealt with in a season that is now 1/3 of the way through; Dean, Castiel, Leviathans, Adam and now Bobby. It’s now a genuine concern that Sam’s issues will either (a) merely be given lip service (as his decision to say ‘Yes’ was) or (b) they will serve as a platform by which to understand Dean. To be honest, I’m wary of the former and tired of the latter.
Add to that, if Sam’s issues arise again it won’t be until the latter half of the season. By then, I dare say the storyline will have lost serious momentum. The guy has been saying ‘I’m fine, I’m dealing’ etc for a long time now it’s going to be hard to go back and have him say ‘Well, actually I’m not’. I find it a rather bizarre decision to have built up the wall breaking storyline for so long, to have it break and then nada. There is a danger that, if the storyline is revisited, it could very easily turn into a case whereby viewers are left thinking ‘Well, Sam was doing well for so long, why doesn’t he just keep on doing what he did before in order to deal?’
The show has really written itself into a hole in relation to Sam. By spending 6 ½ years showing us what he did and not who he is, they’re now not really in a position to tell us who the hell he is. Perhaps they don’t know, perhaps they don’t care, perhaps they’ve decided to focus on the fully human characters in the story; Dean and Bobby (we now have greater insight into who Bobby is than who Sam is). Perhaps this is the reason they are so hesitant to write a Sam POV, they just don’t know who he is. This really is unfair to both characters. It’s put huge pressure on Dean to always portray the emotional side of the story but it’s also done a disservice to Sam because by depriving us of his motivations and his feelings, it has made him less than human.
Sam is a hard character to defend and argue for. Because so little about who he is is based in canon, it’s left him subject to a huge number of attacks about his character. It is canon that Sam running away had huge consequences for Dean, but there’s nothing about what drove Sam to run away so it is now 'canon' that Sam was selfish to run away. Same applies to college. Hell, the same even applied to when he went camping instead of going to Vegas. It's difficult to argue an opinion when you're only given one side of the story.
If the hellacinations are to be revisited then I’d like them to be in a way that will progress Sam as a character, not as a way of manipulating us into feeling a certain way about him. Seeing that he suffers from them doesn’t tell us anything about him, it’s just trying to make us feel sorry for him. There are many things that could be done with the hellacinations (Adam etc) but very few that are being done with it. And to be honest, if Sam’s issues are once again used to push the progression of someone else, I’ll crack!
I’ve very much lost the confidence in the show that I had last season; that they would deal with the person of Sam and not the plot of Sam. I do think that 7.10 will tell a lot in relation to where Sam stands in season 7. Given that he has had visions about Bobby being killed then this (Bobby’s possible death) should seriously affect him. I would hope that this may be the start of some insight into what’s going on in Sam’s head but I don’t know. I know I should have faith that it will happen but I’ve had faith for a long time and it hasn’t happened. I know I should have patience but that patience too is wearing thin. I really don’t want to be watching episode 55.01 of SPN and be thinking ‘Okay, this season we’re going to find out who Sam actually is’.
Thanks for this, Alice. Sometimes it’s good to be given a place to vent.
Thing is, the best story is not always about the most popular character and I really think that the Dean character would be better served in an emotionally supportive role sometimes, otherwise he can come off as self-centered.
Funny, I feel the same way. Only, replace Dean's name with Sam's.
I am also tired of defending Sam. I mean how are you defending someone who rather wanted a better education than being killed at thirty when it's portrayed as something bad and you never hear his side of the story?
Sam was left to be the "bad" brother by the writers but even that they didn't follow through. If Sam was more like, let's say Demon Salvatore from TVD, who is bad, knows it and is ok with that we at least could've had fun with Sam. But, as it is, Sam struggles Season after Season to beat destiny and redeem himself but never seem to fully achieve that, because his actions without the insight left way too much space for interpretation (most of them not good).
Now all of a sudden Sam is super ok. Good for you, Sam! Unbelievable for me. The jump from episode 2 to 3 this season left me asking: how? why? when? Qestions that never been answered. Again we can only guess. And I am dissapointed because the whole build up from season 6 left me thinking that there will be great drama ahead of un this season, but the greatest drama was the Amy desaster (as I like to call it now). Everything Dean went through in season 6 for Sam, all the worry about the wall breaking, all the warning about what it could do to Sam were in vain.
I don't believe anymore that they are going to show more about Sam's "broken" psyche then the first two episodes. My theory on that is following (apart from lazy writing): If Sam would've been so destroyed from the wall breaking then Cas after his returning (which I believe will happen) could never be forgiven by Dean. So to leave a possibility open for Cas to be on Dean's good side again, they have to show "Look, Sam's not doing too bad!".
Then again I could be all wrong and the second half of the season could be Sam breaking. Here I agree with the rest of you...to wait half a season for something to happen just takes the wind out of the drama-sailing boat.
you're right.
I have lost a lot of interest in this show nowadays because they take so fudging long, long, long time to make things happen, character wise. This is what bugged me most about S6.
I too am really freaking tired of this guessing game. "How is Sam dealing? Did he just give us a sign of his deeper understanding/choices/feelings with that smile/look/sigh/touch?".
I usually have some kind of grasp of his character (or maybe it's always been just my take and not what show intended, beats me) but nowadays I'm just perplexed, all the time. I can't see his reasoning anymore. And I've always seen it, even with the bad choices. I could see where he's coming from but since the lackcluster season 6, and the way it's been handled since, I'm getting more and more wary. Dissapointed yet again. *sigh* And I really, really don't want to be.
I'm (usually) trying my very best to stay positive but sometimes (like today) it's just too much of a task.
I love this show, I really, really do. I just don't like it at the moment. And I'm hoping agaist hope that it'll get better (*whispers: but it should have allready*).
Ok, too long rambles, sorry Tim. Just agreeing with every single word you've written.
Love, Supernarttu, Mrs.
Ps. Sorry for being overtly Maudling you guys.
Ppss. God, I'm depressed now. Gotta surf some *insert your own situation here* -type screencaps from the good old days :)
Chocolate cake and John Winchester. The answer to, and cause of, all lifes problems.....
Maybe the yummy cake could be delivered by soking wet, sexy Winchester Trio in tight t-shirts?
Candy AND eyecandy, get it? *nudge nudge wink wink*
Pretty please?
But thank you Tim. It's helping allready!
Ah screw it.....
Yes, for all of those reasons, but I would add the less noble ones of arrogance and self-righteousness to that list, especially when they found out that Lucifer already knew about the plan to open the doorway to hell with the rings. Sam's reasonings for saying yes to Lucifer were very complex and many-fold, how could it be otherwise for such a complex character. It is the same as with Dean's reasonings for making the deal to save Sam back in S2 And I disagree completely with the thought that all the many reasonings behind both of their actions were never indicated. Not everything can be shown in a "concrete way". I'm still disappointed that Sam, or even Bobby, has never, in a "concrete" way(or any way at all, truly) credited Dean with being a huge part of saving the planet, too, by showing up at that cemetary and helping Sam to call up the strength within himself to overcome Lucifer. And considering the thought that Dean considers himself "90% crap", this would be something Dean could so sorely use to hear from his loved ones, especially now. But if we don't get it, it doens't mean, I don't believe it because to me that was made pretty clear from all the indications in that episode. And I know that some will argue that it was unclear as to whether it was the car or the toy soldier more than Dean himself that got through to Sam, but regardless, the fact remains that if Dean hadn't shown up, chances were that Lucifer, who was very much in control before that, would have burned the world down. The writing on this show has never been stellar, IMO. It's certainly had it's ups and downs, and for many of us it's been on an unremitting downward slide since mid S5. Things that should have been shown have not been shown, they've only been told. Some things have not even been "told", that should have been told as regards BOTH main characters, not just Sam, IMO. Maybe some of us have just become more inured to poorer and unbalanced quality of the writng and have learned to either continue watching by getting around it or have moved on because they simply can't get by it. The Sam fandom wants to see more of the "inner workings" of Sam. The Dean fandom wants a myth-arc storyline for Dean that is has at it's center something about Dean being the "special/chosen" one for once. At this point, the possibility that the showrunner/wrtiers simply aren't going to deliver on either of these things has to be considered. I've considered it and choose to keep watching(and yes, hoping), anyway. Perhaps that time has now come for more than a few here.
Sometimes it comes in the form of deeply rooted coping mechanisms that have him lash out and push guilt and anger he himself feels onto others. (See "Everybody Loves a Clown" for one of many examples.)
Other times it comes from love and genuine fear and concern. (See Metamorphosis for one of many examples.)
But nonetheless, the words are often harsh and often have the effect of shutting down the conversation or pushing Sam away.
Something else that sticks out in my mind is that despite all the claims about how Dean's hell angst was not well reacted to by Sam and Bobby, it never altered his behavior. Sam tells him that he's weak, he gets mad and wants to prove he isn't. Bobby tells Dean to suck it up, he takes a stand and almost saves the day. I'm thinking Dean isn't all that fragile and maybe the people around him know exactly what he does and doesn't respond to.
2) Trying to paint Sam and Bobby as the most emotionally repressive relatives ever forgets that Sam spent a large part of the beginning of S4 trying to get Dean to open up.
3) And before 'and then threw it in his face' gets trotted out, Dean's guilt that he confessed was as to torturing souls and liking it, on being corrupt, not as to being weak. They weren't inconsequential charges and they did cut down Dean, but they also weren't 'his confession being thrown in his face.'
4) Dean's own siren spell confession wasn't that benign either. "The Sam I knew, he's gone" feeds right into the previous charges of having strayed too far from human and the final word that triggered the big split, "monster". 'If I didn't know you, I'd want to hunt you' and 'I don't feel like I know you anymore' fit very well together and yield a rather toxic mixture.
5) It's ironic that 'suck it up' is treated as the worst thing that could ever be said to Dean because he's utilized that more than a few times. Sam Interrupted, M3TR being more obvious examples, but far from the only ones.
Apart from direct and particular acknowledgement of Dean, there's also been Cas's characterization of the world having been saved by "two boys, an old drunk and a fallen angel" and Dean's comment in the last episode as to how "we've" steered the bus away from the cliff already.
This is all before I even touch Chuck's parting monologue about how the key to everything was family.
So I'd say the writing has acknowledged it and judging from his comment in the latest episode, I'd say the message has gotten through to Dean.
And there has been validation from Sam. Just rewatch A Very Supernatural Christmas. Both young Sam and older Sam show they value Dean by giving him a gift (the amulet as a child and the Christmas celebration as an adult - Sam did it for Dean even though he found it painful. He threw in a bonus gift of watching the game instead of forcing Dean to talk about his feelings.
Sam can be there for Dean, which he already is. Sam can say positive things to Dean, which he does. But Sam can't make Dean believe Sam's words. Dean has to find his self-worth on his own. Sam can't do that for him.
talking bat sam scrambled brain i for one wish to have sam vulnerable from inside that leaves us with Sam needing Dean as much as Dean needs Sam ..and i like the show this way two brother to rely on each other (and Bobby too and hopefully he is not killed off to bring much needed motivation for Dean..Cass was wasted for nothing and now Bobby plsss no)
I cam across this video on u tube on sams problem from S4 and felt how much Sam and Dean rely on each other and i want it to like this only..
I've just suffered a personal loss, so things are in a different perspective right now, and my love for the Winchester boys are helping me cope and all the depressing complaints are making me consider quitting the board for the good of my mental health at the moment.
I know that everyone is entitled to their opinions and that is good, but I would just love to read some positive posts from anyone. Perhaps only the discontented post the most and the happy ones don't. I hope that is the case and that the people who create the show realize that they are appreciated by the many.
I have 3 friends who are rabid Supernatural fans and they are loving season 7 (like I am) the best since season 3. Those 3 and I both thought that season 4 (that so many loved so much) was the least enjoyable of all the seasons so far (even though it had many marvelous episodes, the brothers were at odds). And none of them post on any board, so, I have to believe that there are more out there.
Hah! After all that rant, I just want it on the record that I am loving season 7 so far and am eternally grateful to Kripke, Gamble, Edlund, Manners, Singer, Ladouceur etc etc and the wonderful J's, Jensen, Jared, Jim and Jeffrey and all the awesome guest stars that have appeared throughout the years.
Tina Charles and Gaelicspirit and most reviewers on this site still are loving the show and have faith in the creators and are enjoying it so far this year.
Supernatural is keeping me from hitting rock bottom right now and I thought it needed a little positive opinion of encouragement and appreciation.
I know this won't change anybody's opinion, it's just a thumb's up vote for my favourite show. I'm sure most stopped reading halfway through!
Perhaps I've been falling short of posting more uplifting articles lately. To be honest, I don't have the active writing staff I used to (a lot have stopped writing for personal reasons) and my time in limited as well. I've got a fun one coming up, a slideshow of Sam Winchester nicknames. I'll try to do more fannish stuff for you, but in the meantime, we do gotta keep it real at times too.
To be honest, I don’t even think this is a negative article. It merely posited a question in relation to whether or not Sam Winchester is okay. Some feel he is, some feel he’s not. There are those (including me) who might express dissatisfaction, or even dislike of a particular aspect of the show but that does not automatically equate to disliking the show itself.
If the show continues in the vein that it’s going will I continue to watch? Yep, course I will. I’ll still buy the DVD’s and visit sites etc. (I have to keep coming here. I’m currently embroiled in a non-sexual, platonic relationship with three people whose names I don’t even know over on CBOX!) I just won’t be as enthusiastic about that part of the show as I have been in the past so I guess I’ll either adapt or accept.
And Bevie, I really wouldn’t worry. The PTB are not going to cancel the show because some people have expressed dissatisfaction with it (hell, I download. I don’t think my viewing even counts). If they didn’t cancel after the criticism season 6, season 5, and season 4 received then they certainly aren’t going to do it now. You could still be watching the Winchesters when they are old and grey (the good, sexy kind of grey...)
It's always hard when one particular story line isn't advancing as fast as the viewer might like, but I think Supernatural is pretty even handed with how it develops the boys. In my travels, I think I've read about the same amount of discontent on either guy not getting enough of a story line. (-:
I think Sam will destabilize very soon and when he does, the changes in the relationship between he and Dean will come into play. He's not so much the little brother, now.
But I also know that words are rarely helpful, they are only shadows of emotions, and they seldom reflect the depth of the pit loss can throw us into. To my own experience the pain can last a long time, and as long as we love, it hurts, but – as I see it and what always helps me when memories tear at my heart –I truly believe that the feeling of loss is another face of love. A darker one, true. Sometimes so dark it seems to be unbearable. But when I remember that the pain is there because love still is, I sometimes feel a smile in my soul. Because love is not the worst legacy.
I can understand well how Supernatural has been able to support you and help you to cope with what you are going through right now. The courage under fire, as Hemingway would have it, our beloved characters show can be inspiring and sometimes help us to find our own strength and hope and reason to go on, despite everything that hurts us.
I doubt that the show will be cancelled, try not to worry about that, dear. I believe there are many “happy ones” out there who don’t post anywhere but watch the show and love it, just as you do. I am also one of those happy ones that love the show like on day one. I have minor issues about some aspects of the show, but I don’t let them spoil my fun of enjoying it. Just as those that need to stress what they are dissatisfied with are entitled to their opinions, the others that love it are, too. Apart from other personal reasons, the changes of climate on this board made me withdraw from writing as I used to. For the time being, I enjoy loving the show in a more quiet and/or private way. I think other fans that don’t comment do so as well.
Don’t be discouraged, Bevie. This show will prove for decades to come that it is one of the best, if not the best, tv shows around. And it will be there – I hope and trust – to help you in your time of sorrow.
I wish I could say or do anything else to help you, but wouldn’t want to impose it on you. I do hope you are not alone in this, and your “rabid” fellow fans can be there for you, providing hugs, chocolate or whatever might bring a smile to your face. At least once in a while.
My heart goes out to you, dear Bevie. And I pray that the pain you are going through right now will soon, very soon become bearable and then – hopefully – cease. My best wishes. Jas
I'm so sorry to hear you have suffered a personal loss of some kind. I offer you hugs and tea (of the internet variety).
I totally agree with you that Supernatural can be anchor when the waters of your life are turbulent. I discovered Supernatural during a rocky phase of my own life. It's saved my sanity on more than one occasion.
You're definitely not alone in enjoying Season 7. I'm right there beside you. I like the unfolding Leviathan mystery. And I appreciate the fact the writers are taking a look at the toll the hunting life takes on caring, compassionate people (that would be Dean, Sam and Bobby.)
I know you're looking for something more positive, and a bit lighter. I'm just putting the finishing touches on a piece that looks at food and the boys. What can I say? I was inspired by Turducken!!
Sending you all the best & warm thoughts,
Pragmatic Dreamer
I can honestly say that SPN has also is helping me through a difficult time. There is just something about the show that touches me in a way, I've never experienced with any other show and I've never been part of a "fanbase" before in my life.
I must admit not all of my posts are positive, but that doesn't change the fact that I love this show.
So this is for you Bevie: What I love about S7 so far:
1. Dean's hair (well, quite frankly, all 10 things could be physical traits of Dean, but I'll just mention the hair
2. Participating in Sam's "mutton chops of doom" watch-we may actually see sideburn meeting the corner of his lips by episode 15
3. Air Supply! (I'll admit, they were the first band I ever saw live)
4. Sam and Dean Warehouse scene-picture perfect brother to brother interaction
5. Winking LeviDean *sigh* why is bad always so much hotter than good!
6. Sam's Bitch Face-always classic and has made a strong appearance in several episodes this season.
7.Frank and Garth-good potential for returning characters and I want to get to know both better.
8. Crowley, Death, and Lucifer have all made appearances-Adore every scene those three are in.
9.The Out take that Jared tweeted of him exercising- I love it when he does slapstick.
10.What I really love about S7 is this is the first season that I've not only watched the show as it unfolds, but have been able to participate in the fandom.
Hope this cheered you up a little!
I know what you mean. Supernatural has and is helping me through some difficult RL as well. I am happy with S7 and do NOT agree with much of the criticism leveled at the show. I just don't have the mental energy to compose a long, detailed post.
I'm watching it and enjoying the show -- its only fandom that isn't as much fun right now.
Don't worry about the show being canceled -- ratings are what matters, not comments on web pages, and ratings are fine. See Alice's excellent article on ratings.
Hang in there, Bevie, Friday's coming!!
Big issue of the season presented in episode 1 or 2 .
Rest of the season spent mentioning occasionally , but mostly ignoring, big issue in favor of stand alone and comedy episodes. The exception being the mid season finale, usually.
Big issue returns in the final 2 episodes of the season.
Therefore, no, he is not ok but he's saving it up for the last 2 episodes of season 7.
BTW purplehairedwonder I noticed that scene in the diner too. Glad I wasn't the only one.
Great article Alice! Very thinky and politely put. And I agree on a lot.
I'm feeling a little out of touch with this show right now but the season is not done and I do have a bit of faith left. A tiny bit but it can make a huge difference so I'm onboard this ship 'till the very end.
But thank you for this piece, and for the opportunity to vent :)
And Tim, you stated so clearly, what I can never manage to articulate from my brain to the screen.
I would add that one of the reasons that we don't know who Sam is, is that Dean doesn't know who Sam really is. If we, as the audience see Sam and the story through Dean's eyes, then it follows.
Dean may have made strides towards not treating Sam like a little kid anymore, but he really seems to have no more insight into what makes Sam tick than he had seven years ago. Whlie Sam understands Dean's motivations and reactions, his issues and why he is the way he is, and accepts them, Dean has no such insight.
As you said, the show doesn't show us Sam's motivations so we assume them. We infer from Sam's words and actions that though he wanted to get away from John, he looked up to Dean, so his motivation for going to college was not to abandon his whole family. Dean doesn't see it that way so that's what we get when there is all of the sudden dialogue in season 5 PONR that Sam says that he was wrong every time he left. Um... okay.
Season 4 left us to decide for ourselves what motivated Sam to drink demon blood, and we once again infer that he felt guilty and grief stricken and practically suicidal, according to IKWYDLS. Oops....wrong again. According to season 5, he was angry, prideful and self righteous.
This is what Dean sees so this is the Sam we're supposed to buy. The occasional insight from Sam to Dean always seems to suprise Dean. It actually makes me roll my eyes when Dean looks so shocked to know that Sam thinks the demon blood inside can't be washed clean or scrubbed away so he's trying to do something good with it, or when Sam tells him that part of the reason he went with Ruby was because of the way Dean treats him and looks at him. As I said, Dean doesn't look below the surface so we don't get to either. I'm not bashing Dean, it's just part of his personality, like using humor to mask fear or pain.
Just my take.
I've always taken it that all of the traits you mention are Sam's, not that only some are. Sam did want to get away from John, he did look up to Dean, his motivation was not to abandon his whole family, but he realised he was wrong to run away as a strategy.
Sam did feel guilty and grief-stricken and the way he expressed that was by focusing of revenge, which did lead him to get angry, prideful and self-righteous--which led him to make poor decisions. Realising that helped him his huge good decision at the end of season 5.
This kind of writing is why I love Supernatural. Not only are the characters textured in believable ways, both boys are unique specific characters who have their own points of view.
I give Dean more credit in how he sees Sam--he's believed in Sam's strength when even Sam didn't--but he doesn't know Sam inside and out. No one does. Sam's hidden himself with an exterior projection his whole life. I do think Dean knows him better than anyone else, though.
In Season 3, Dean thought that Sam was strong enough to go on knowing he was in Hell. He couldn't have been more wrong. He thought that Sam wouldn't be strong enough to fight Lucifer in Season 5. He was wrong again. I think that Bobby knows Sam better than Dean, frankly.
To my mind, that's why Dean went behind Sam's back instead of pushing him to kill Amy. And why The Mentalists conversation centered on apologizing for lying, not why Sam was mad.
I don't think anyone could really know what Sam was going through in regard to Hell--it was new ground for everyone. Still is. I also think Dean did end up believing in Sam's ability to fight Lucifer--that's why he turned up at the end and kept talking to Sam/Lucifer.
I always read Dean's reluctance to say yes to Sam's plan to include that he wasn't prepared to risk losing Sam. His arc was to realise he had to let Sam go.
I agree, though, that Sam is hard to really know. But as much as anyone does, Dean does. Bobby, too--that's why he'll be so missed if he's gone. )-:
And I don't agree on Hell being new territory. In fact, Dean was uniquely qualified to know what it would feel like for Sam. John's similar deal started Dean's season 2 depression, and Dean also knew what it felt like to lose his brother.
Dean clarified that he stood by his gut feeling about Amy but that lying to Sam didn't feel right to him and that's why he'd been so miserable. I think that's an apology for the lying. Sam seemed to hear it that way.
I think Dean knew Sam well enough to know that when Sam thought it through, he'd understand (perhaps not agree with) Dean's reasons for killings Amy, just as Dean understood (but did not agree with) Sam's reasons for letting her go. That just left the lie as the issue between them. To me, that's the way it played out.
On Hell, Dean knows what's like to be tortured, but he didn't know what it would be like to have to fight Lucifer in order to jump into Hell. Now, he doesn't know what it's like to have his soul flayed by Lucifer. What Sam went through is not the same thing as Dean went through. Castiel didn't think Sam could survive getting his soul back. This is uncharted territory.
However, I agree that if anyone can come close to understanding Sam, it's Dean because of what he went through.
Regarding "The mentalist" discussions between the guys, I just feel like It's another "Fallen Idols": badly written, and much too one-sided. At the end though, I just needed Dean to apologize. Dean saying how lying made him feel without acknowledging how it hurt Sam is not an apology in my opinion. It came across to me as Dean saying that he hated lying but he had to do it because he couldn't trust Sam's sanity. Argh. I guess you can tell I really hated that episode, lol.
I loved the ep. I think Dean cares very much about how Sam feels, but he doesn't discuss that kind of thing with anyone, ever. (-: It's not a Dean thing to talk about feelings. No chick moments!
I think Dean's explanation was that he decided to lie because he was afraid of Sam's sanity, but that once he had, it didn't feel right to him and then he was miserable.
I think you are totally right Dean has been depressed this season. I find, though, that makes him more emotionally distant from himself--he does everything he can to avoid looking inward. He still connected with Sam to anchor him in reality during hallucinations.
However, we can agree to disagree--I had fun discussing it with you!
I just wish I was enjoying Sam's story this year.
And about his anger issues atleast they were nonexistant till the show mentioned it because if i am not wrong people who have this issue get angry pretty quickly he never knew normal, his girlfriend died,father died,brother died and he is lucifers vessel will he angry after all this. it is very logical
Most of the times when i ascertain Sam's motives by his actions i have either dean or chuck telling me otherwise but for dean or bobby or castiel we don't have scenes where anyone just 180s their intentions,this is why i want Sam's POV some times so that they just not focus on his anger but also on the desperation that led to the anger,not only his pride but the abomination tag and the failure of the people who called him abomination and his success that that which led to that pride( because for all the angels claimed to be able to save the world they were unsuccessful in alistairs case)
The dramatic sl they had with Sams wall falling has been wasted IMO.
Have any of you re- lived or a traumatic memory?
It's a weird experience. See, before I felt like I had a black cloud hanging over me, this terrible threat. Anxiety, depression, panic attacks. I had a total breakdown.
But after I remembered, the light shone through and I wasn't scared or depressed any more. It was like once I remembered what had caused the problem and integrated it It stopped being a problem.
It was still sad and it changed my relationships to a certain extent but, my point is, getting the hell memories back would have been terrifying. But thats really the worst part and after that it gets better.
Sorry for oversharing, but maybe that's where the writers are going with Sam. Everyone thought I was doing just fine, because that is what I wanted them to think.
The rest of the quotation from that scene...
Dean: You saying this is my fault?
Sam: No, it’s my fault.
Doesn’t sound like the show is laying the fault at Dean’s feet. Sam's POV is that is was entirely his own fault. Also in that scene,
Sam: Look, I know what I did, what I’ve done but I’m trying to climb out of that hole.
Again, sounds like Sam is accepting responsibility, whole responsibility.
When someone says it's my fault but your dickishness made me do it and you have to change or I am running away again, that ain't taking responsibility in my book.
Just the fact that Dean rolled over took the blame by apologizing at the end is the show tacitly saying Sam was right and the ultimate fault lies with Dean. The final apology was not Dean apologizing for his part in the breakdown in the relationship and Sam saying they both made mistakes or he was equally to blame. It was Sam oh-so-graciously accepting the apology as his due.
By the way, how was Sam climbing out of the hole if his response was to threaten to ditch Dean again unless Dean did what Sam wanted? That is not taking responsibility, IMO, that is shifting the responsibility of changing on to the other person.
This is exactly the sort of manipulative writing I was talking about in my last post that you claim does not exist. It's a bait and switch where Sam says he is taking responsibility but in point of fact, he is shifting it onto someone else. Yet you bought it hook, line and sinker, while I did not. So who is allowing the writers to tell them what to think?
But he also recognizes that their relationship was not functional when they weren't equal partners. To avoid repeating the mistakes of the past, they need to address the root of their conflict. Why is that so difficult to understand?
How is that not blaming Dean for Sam's actions? Nowhere in that conversation does Sam address his own failures in their relationship. That his own pride and arrogance and ego were also leading him towards Ruby. Nor does he apologize for his failures or the many ways in which he has hurt his brother. The only apology forthcoming that episode was from Dean. And no, I do not feel that his generic apology in season premiere counted. Not when Dean spent the rest of the season constantly apologizing and taking responsibility for Sam's bad behavior from season 4.
So yes, I do think the writing has been bad for Sam but not for the reasons that are being bemoaned here. Sam is not and has never been presented as equally invested in the brotherly relationship. Which is not wrong per se and definitely healthier, but it becomes problematic when the entire show is built on that relationship. Especially when other characters are killed off if they take away too much attention from the relationship while it continues to be so one-sided.
something similar would be planned for Sam
It would be awesome; it would be beyond awesome if this is what the show decided to show. Though not a ‘Samgirl’ (why does that word and ‘Deangirl’ make me cringe?), I’d be more than happy to see Sam presented as being strong, loyal, independent, dependable and well-adjusted and not the weak, selfish, needy, deceitful traitor the show has chosen to emphasise these past number of years.
However, they haven’t shown this. Instead, they’ve made Sam a non-entity. Need to show some Dean angst, have him worry about his brother who went off on his own during the brother’s sacred annual trip to Vegas. Need to show some Dean sorrow, have him gaze forlornly at a phone which shows Sam didn’t call him. Need to show some Dean frustration, let’s have Sam get whammied. Need Dean to show some anger? Let’s have him unleash a verbal tirade on Sam. (I often wonder what the reaction would have been like if the roles were reversed and Sam had let loose on Dean.) Need to show how far Castiel has fallen? Let him shatter the wall in Sam’s head. Why not? It’ll be of little consequence anyway. That’s not showing Sam as a strong, well-adjusted, perfect character, it’s showing him as a plot device.
And unfortunately, by making Sam the plot device by which other characters feel anger/pain/guilt/frustration etc it’s reduced him once again to, as he was described in 7.02, ‘our other big problem’. Hardly the signs of a strong, well-adjusted and perfect character.
Dean’s descent has been well-chronicled for over three years now. We know why he is where he is and as a result it’s made his position now both understandable and relatable. Sam’s, in the blink of an eye, ascent from a guilt and Hell-ridden basket case to being the strongest, most well-adjusted man on the face of the earth is not.
Quote:
Castiel put his plan in relation to the souls into play at a time when he wasn’t even in contact with Dean so how can it be blamed on Dean being ‘mean’ to Castiel?
Quote:
Again, Sam went with Ruby while Dean was in hell so unless Dean was being a big meanie to Sam from way down under, Sam’s decision to go off with Ruby can’t be blamed on Dean.
Sam’s decision to go off with Ruby was based on.... ummm, vengeance, anger, despair? Not sure really. Hey, maybe they both used the same hair care products and so got together for that reason? (That explanation is as good as any the show has given us.)
Yes, all of these, IMO-in addition to his always wanting to have full control over his own life-which also often makes him see Dean as being as overly-controlling as their father was-even though Dean, in actuality and again IMO(and going by what we've been shown series-long), has less in common with John in this regard than Sam thinks.
I mentioned vengeance, anger despair as possible motivations. I could easily have mentioned stupidity, arrogance, a yearning for the dark side, as a 'feck you' to Dean, and all of those could be valid reasons as to why he did what he did and until the show starts to acknowledge the person of Sam and not the character of Sam, we will be forever in the dark.
And while the show has short-changed Dean on many an occasion, I do not feel that character exposition is one of them.
Dean's reasonings for making the deal were laid out in much the same way, IMO. These writers often use anvils when it's unnecessary; and then choose to be too subtle or skip over things entirely when they should be more forthright in the dialogue, IMO-but again I see it in regards to how all the characters on the show have been written and really from the very beginning, IMO. Huge swings in characterizations, plot holes galore, weird "twists" that came out of nowhere/inattention to canon, a more juvenile and crude sense of humor, and too much meta-all these things having permeated the writing since mid-S5, IMO and have only shown a spotlight on that first thing more now, and again IMO.
Sam never had much of control over the direction his life would go till he went to Stanford and not much even after that how many seasons did he have to wait to drive impala when Dean was well..is it so bad to want to at least have semblance of control in ones life .no wonder he sees Dean as bossy...
I completely agree w/you that Dean's descent has been very well-chronicled, but the problem is they took last year off and left Dean in a place where his "depression" was not the primary focus - if he was even depressed last year, which I don't think he was.
I think part of the reason I enjoyed S6 as much as I did is b/c Dean wasn't wallowing in depression like he was in S5 - at least he wasn't for me. He is the POV character, so it's a little much when it's all depression, all the time. For me, S6 was a nice reprieve from Dean's constant depression in S5. I understood it in S4 and thought it was pretty well-executed. Sadly, I did not care for Dean's characterization in S5, and I had grown tired of his depression. But by the time DSOTM aired, I had had it w/Dean and his crappy attitude. I just didn't want to see it anymore. There was no progression to the story. Dean was just depressed, and that's how it was going to be.
Thankfully, Dean wasn't depressed and sad in S6. However, we're now back to him being suicidal and overwhelmed. Why? What happened now? This sudden depression is not making much sense to me, and I'm not sure why he's depressed right now. Some may speculate it's the loss of Castiel, but Dean didn't hear from Castiel for a whole year and didn't break down b/c of it. And when Cas did re-surface, it's not like Dean treated him all that nicely. I honestly don't know why Dean would feel guilty or depressed about Castiel. Cas made his choices. He never told Dean about his plans and basically didn't want to hear what Dean had to say. Sam is not going through ANY trauma, so Dean can't be feeling upset or depressed about Sam's "broken wall." So, what's his deal? That Amy plot (or what I like to call "waste of time plot") can't be the reason. Dean didn't feel particularly guilty, and I didn't buy that he was upset b/c he doesn't like lying to Sam. And even if I did, that shouldn't put him in a state of severe depression.
They haven't, IMO, given a reason for Dean's current state of mind. I just want Dean to progress. Each year (except for S6), they return to Dean being "sad and depressed." And since the show is told SOLELY from Dean's POV nowadays - except for the occasional Bobby or Castiel episode - the show just feels morose and depressing.
On another board, someone said they were ready for some "emotional resolution" w/Dean, and I must say I feel the same. Dean has in some form, shape, or fashion been constantly sad since S2. Where's the resolution? I desperately need them to start telling a different story or for them to resolve his issues - whatever those may be. If they're not going to focus on Sam, the least they could do is not keep Dean in the same emotional mess year after year.
Everything about hunting seemed to turn against Dean. The victims he and Sam were saving were worse than than the things they were killing. Cas, who had been one of the good things in his life, was turned bad. He learned from Death that saving people had consequences in the natural order. Finally, his attempt to save Sam and shield him from his Hell memories failed.
I never felt Dean's connection to Lisa or Ben, so the loss of them didn't have an impact on me and it didn't seem to affect Dean. I felt Dean returned to hunting fairly smoothly. I know many felt Dean wasn't himself last year, but I never felt that way. As far as Sam is concerned, I saw Dean as saving Sam and getting Death to put up a Hell Wall, which was good for Sam.
I loved Castiel, but his demise was not Dean's fault or problem. For me, S6 didn't set up Dean for this season's overwhelming sadness and depression. That's just my opinion though.
I feel like Dean's perspective jumped from fine or making it to overwhelmed by life. I think the transition could have been better.
It can be, as you have aptly noted, a lethal affliction. I am very sorry you have come into contact with that, in whatever way.
But I will not pretend to respect the writers depiction of Dean's so-called depression because I do not have an ounce of faith in how he will recover from it. When he was suffering from PTSD, which is also a serious and sometimes deadly mental illness, their solution was to have some tell Dean to suck it up and stop whining and lo and behold he did. Do you think that was a respectful way to handle a very serious illness that exists in the real world?
Amd do you actually think this same writer, Sera Gamble who wrote " It's a Terrible Life" will bother to actually treat Dean's depression with any kind of dignity? And will you be writing pissed off letters to her when she basically has someone either beat him up or berate him, much as Bobby did in this last episode, which will no doubt lead to his magical cure?
If you are pissed at the writers, please feel free to tell them. I’m not amused to get flak aimed at Sera & Co.
I can see that you are passionate about this show, but I’d like to ask you to mind your tone.
To my mind and the way I see Dean, for instance, he has never stopped suffering from PTSD or stopped being depressed. The signs are all there. He might not speak about it all the time, but he shows symptoms. And perhaps he will never recover from it completely. Personally, I doubt that he ever will. Unfortunately, some wounds received in the battle of life never heal.
If I look at him as if he were a real person - his reactions are in accordance with what he believes about himself (and the writers did an excellent job of keeping his journey psychologically adequate and real), the sort-of "life traps" (meaning rather unhealthy coping strategies, for instance) he’s established in the course of his life.
Everyone of us does.
Several existential, basic and emotional needs were not met in his childhood (such as: the need for security, for being accepted the way he is, etc).
One result of that is: when memories of past hurt/neglect/fear (etc) are revisited as an adult, we react – pretty much like a reflex – with a coping mode also established early in life.
In Dean’s case it is the mode of being withdrawn or the impulse to hide his inner conflicts. And, furthermore, another coping strategy of his is need for self-sacrifice (literally or metaphorically), which also means that he will always feel guilty when he doesn’t put other peoples’ needs first (in particular those of the ones closest to him). And, the third mode Dean repeatedly falls back to is the feeling of being inadequate, not good enough or unworthy of being loved.
It’s hardly possible to change these instinctive reactions on one’s own.
Dean would need professional help which, in all likelihood, he will never seek (I hope, though, that he will find a more constructive way of living with them). I
It saddens me to see how difficult it is for Dean to deal with the wounds in his soul (it’s similar with Sam, though Sam’s coping strategies are different, simply because the pattern of not-met needs in his childhood was different. He could use some help, too, of course).
And the way we see Dean behave is perfectly in accordance with his state of mind and the still lasting depression and PTSD.
I think this is a testament to the instinctively marvellous and intelligent actor Jensen Ackles – playing this complex character in an understated manner and yet showing his inner turmoil. That’s the kind of acting I admire immensely.
Even when it's not given by the script, Jensen appears to exactly know where Dean is standing at one particular moment in his life and acts accordingly to it.
When you look at "his" Dean, you see what a person who went through serious trauma and its aftermath can look like – it’s in his body language, in the expression of his eyes, in the colour of his voice.
I was fortunate once to be able to compliment Jensen on his amazing portrayal of the tormented man that Dean is. And he explained wonderfully how he works to find Dean’s reactions by imagining what he would feel like if he were in that situation. He does it superbly and authentically. This is what a suffering man looks like.
I don’t share your view – I don’t think the whole situation was handled the way you look at it. I understand that, to your mind, Dean didn’t receive as much support as you would have liked to be there. From my point of view there have been many moments in which he was shown support and love from those closest to him.
Alas, when times get rough and life swings you about, then there often isn’t enough time to deal with these inner conflicts (in Supernatural's context: e.g. when a battle has to be fought, a friend’s life saved or a brother kept sane), in a fictional story as in real life.
In the blue collar world of Supernatural, I can imagine that psychological problems are dealt with exactly as they are on the show – with denial, shutting up and putting up a front – so the story-telling is very much rooted in reality (despite the paranormal riff raff).
To my experience, in a context where psychological issues are still regarded as “loony” issues, people tend to remain quiet about them in order to not appear weak or “crazy”. And those people usually need longer to actually seek out professional help and also a long time to accept that a depression/trauma disorder is a sickness and that it can be treated.
And I think Dean himself (and I am treating him like a real person, for the sake of debate, and not the fictional character that he is) has handled the whole situation in a very dignified way. So has Sam. Both own a quiet air of dignity and strength. But, well, that’s just me.
Cheers, Jas
It's very much a give and take between the brothers. They support each other and it's not always Dean. They rarely congratulate each other on how they're handling things or get talky about their issues, although Sam was sure trying hard until last episode. Dean didn't admire Sam's strength in dealing with his addiction for example. Not one word was said about it. Nothing was said about Sam jumping in the pit either. But Dean was there, when it mattered most. And Sam was there for Dean in Season 5 too. They pick each other up when they fall, and that's enough for me.
They don't support each other with many words, and sometimes they are angry because the other got into a terrible situation, and eventually they are both able to put that aside and be there, no matter what.
I love that about these characters. Despite their tough and at times horrific lives they are able to find forgiveness for the other's mistakes.
We never saw Sam's journey from hallucinating to learning coping methods to managing the hallucinations. We were deprived of a story. Plain and simple.
I hear your sarcasm and understand you resent Sam being shown as "strong," but trust me, that's not what's happening. The writers just don't care enough about Sam to bother to write story for him. As a Deangirl, you should feel assured in that you will NEVER experience that. His emotional POV and feelings will ALWAYS be fully fleshed out and explored. You'll never be in the dark w/r/t his actions, etc.
As a bi-bro fan, I feel I know Dean pretty well. He gets a lot of emotional exploration. I would love to have the same w/Sam b/c I love Sam just as much as I love Dean. It's been hard coming to the realization that the writers don't feel the same, but it is what it is.
If I never again have to see Dean stand on the sidelines and helplessly emo over something someone else is going through or doing, I would be perfectly happy. So no, I don't need the reassurance that we will get more emotional exploration for Dean. I need the reassurance that Dean will actually be relevant to the larger story for himself and not just as his brother's unwanted babysitter which is all he has been for 7 years now.
But I do find it interesting that you clearly resent any and all emotional exploration (since you hated Dean in season 5 and now) but you don't seem to have a problem with his complete lack of any other storyline. If you were truly as bibro as you claim, I would expect to see you railing on behalf of both brothers and not just Sam.
In fact, I would never have guessed from your posts that you actually like Dean since you clearly want the show to be much more focused on Sam. His emotions, his story, his plot.
I do feel he's been in emotional turmoil for far too long, but that is another post for another day. I do want some emotional exploration for Sam. My wanting that for Sam has nothing to do w/Dean.
I am not a fan of Dean's story this year (poorly told) or Sam's (non-existent).
You can believe what you want about me. I know what I like. I like both Dean AND Sam. Just b/c I like them doesn't mean I can't criticize the characters or their stories.
The reality is that the majority of this fandom is made up of Deangals. With the ratings dropping to 1.5m for the last episode, to focus solely on Sam ongoing would kill this show even deader than it is. I know I wouldn't bother watching those episodes.
Also, if you've read the NUMEROUS articles I've done on ratings, you would know your ratings comment doesn't hold water at all. Don't ever use that argument here. It's a hot button issue with me and I have lots of facts to prove why that is not true.
This is a warning. Next comment like this gets edited or unpublished.
We have actually seen more of Sam's Hell time already just this season since episodes 1 & 2 delved into the Hallucinations in depth. There is the firey Sam face flashes. And of course, there is all of season 6 which dealt with the fallout from Hell through soulless Sam and the many, many people who told us how much worse Sam would have it than anyone else, ever.
So if they decide that Sam getting all zen and occasionally pressing on his cut is about all they are going to do with this particular storyline, then I think it is on par or even slightly better than what they did for Dean's post-Hell storyline. At least Sam is getting tons of sympathy from people and being told how strong and deep he is, rather than being told that he is weak or broken or that he should stop whining. Maybe it's all the support he is getting that is enabling him to come across as the strongest person in the world. Not that anyone would ever acknowledge the difference in the treatment of the brothers' by those who are supposed to be there for them.
Having said all that, I would not be in the least bit surprised if the last several episodes of the season dealt exclusively with Sam's trauma. Sera has said there is more to come and where Sam is concerned, she doesn't tend to lie.
But back to Lucifer and this season, he spent two episodes telling us how Sam was basically being raped and tortured by him. We got visuals like the hell-fire flashes and the chain dragging him up to the ceiling. We got an extensive scene of Sam coming to grips with the fact that it was a hallucination and how to tell the difference between what was real and what was in his head. We get Sam telling people that he is handling things OK almost every episode and we are seeing him be strong and healthy so for once, he may actually be telling the truth.
The show is telling us that Sam is so super-strong that he can overcome anything including the guilt he felt for the things he did as soulless Sam. Unlike Dean who apparently just wallows for no reason, according to Jo.
On top of that we are getting Bobby and Dean fussing over Sam on a near-constant basis, while Sam manfully continues to tell them he is fine which he probably is for now.
Seriously, I have read limp Sam fanfiction that was not as pro-Sam as this season so I really have to wonder what it is some people want. Sam is front and center like he always is. We know that he will get the big finale devoted to him exclusively since it almost always is. And we know that whatever Dean is going through, he will ultimately be forced back into taking care of Sam when the crap hits the fan because that is the only roll that the show will allow Dean.
This is show is Sam's story, plain and simple. Dean, Bobby, Castiel and all the others are side characters in Sam's journey. That did not change with the end of the mytharc. The introduction of soulless Sam and then the wall breaking ensured that so I honestly fail to understand all the hand-wringing that is going on, especially given how utterly dedicated Sera Gamble is the character and the actor that plays him.
Did we fully explore Sam's soullessness and how he feels about it? We started to in Unforgiven, but that was cut short because of the wall. Samuel said that Sam had done things 10 times worse than setting up your grandsons to be fed to ghouls, but neither what Sam did to the sheriff, nor the bartender, approaches that. The season finale and the first two episodes this season started telling Sam's story, but my frustration is that the storytelling seems to have come to a complete stop after that. Somehow Sam made the leap from considering suicide to feeling good about everything, all by pressing on his palm.
So yes, in that sense I actually agree with you but I don't think it's because the writers are uninterested in Sam, I think it's because they see him as the show's only true hero and therefore he gets the benefit of the whitewashing and the pimping that no other character on the show is usually given.
Now does this hurt Sam's ability to be likable or relatable? It does for someone like me who actually likes some of the other characters on the show as well. But clearly not for most of his fans if the posts on this site are anything to go by because you guys also insist that Sam can do no wrong or whatever he did wrong was because Dean is a bad brother. And this season, apparently Dean is a bad brother again because he is depressed and therefore not paying enough attention to Sam, even though no one has been fussing over Sam more than Dean.
This show is written by Sam fans for Sam fans. Sure that makes Dean and Cas fans unhappy, but I cannot for the life of me, understand why Sam fans feel so hard done by. Your guy is better than everyone anywhere. We know this because the show keeps telling us so.
Sam's apologies might have been too generic for you in season 5, but he apologized for than once, and it was obvious that he agreed his actions were wrong.
Dean doesn't thing he was wrong to kill Amy behind Sam's back and lie about it for weeks. He felt justified in doing it all because he followed his gut and Sam was nuts and couldn't be trusted. And he yelled at Sam for being mad too long on top of it all.
I really don't think we can compare the 2 situations at all.
And I know I'm going a bit off topic here, but, I'm surprised that so many think that killing Amy was right. Was Gordon right to want to kill Lenore the vampire way back? It's the same thing. Lenore had killed humans before turning to animals, since she had been "turned" completely. So why was it right to let Lenore go, but not Amy, who had saved Sam's life?
Again, if Dean's apology in 7.6 wasn't good enough for you, it wasn't. I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. I feel Dean's apology was as generic as Sam's in S5, and implied apologies were also given by both boys, in 7.7 for Dean and in S5 for Sam. So I do feel they're pretty equal there. We can, of course, agree to disagree.
I think there's also similarity between the boys in the fact that they have both apologized for hurting the other, but have thought that they were still right. Dean still feels that he was right to kill someone who was killing others, just as Sam felt he was right in leaving Dean behind and cutting off contact, despite the fact that he knew how that would affect Dean. Yes, each boy should take each other into account, but they should both be allowed to follow their guts, conscience, etc. I think S5 is quite applicable in comparison also, but if you don't agree, we can agree to disagree there as well.
As for comparing Lenore and Amy, I do feel there's quite a big difference. Lenore hadn't killed anyone in 100 years. She was firmly committed to not taking human life. Amy had killed people much more recently, and she didn't have a moral issue with killing humans as long as she could justify it to herself (her son was sick, and the people were, in her opinion, bad and deserved to die). That, to me, indicates that she would be more than willing to kill again, given the right set of circumstances, whereas Lenore refused human blood even after torture and begged to be killed when the MoA drove her to breaking her fast. So to me, there is a mile of difference between the characters. Saving Sam 15+ years before did not and should not earn Amy a free pass to murder whenever she felt she was justified in doing so.
If Dean had the wall and it had been brought down would the fans who think what they are doing with Sam be has happy if it was Dean? The boys can be there for each other but we cant simply pretend that what happened to Sam didnt happen . Sam has been there for Dean ever since John died , his loss was never even touched upon but he pulled Dean through that loss and hurt and depression Dean got himself in after he lost John.
For Sam to say others have it worse than him? Nearly 2 centuries of torture and memories so bad he had to have a wall in his head.His mum making a deal beore he was born..Giiven demon blood at 6 mths and being manipulated by demons all his life.Seeing his girlfriend burning on the ceiling. the list goes on. and others have it worse? while a sweet statment it was down playing of what Sam has been through . See unless Sam can have and be allowed to have the right like Dean not to be ok after a terrible trauma then what is he?
Deans depression and issues have had plenty of focus and they are getting focus again so Sams go by the way side to fit Deans issues that have been there almost from the begining of the show.
This should not of become just about what a toll everything has been on Dean because we have known this since season 2 and through the constant focus on his problems. This should of for once been about what a toll everything has been for Sam then you could of brought Deans depressionl in to the sl. By doing it this way it looks once again has if Sam doesnt matter while Dean gets the emotional focus again .
I have no doubt some of the Dean fandom are happy with the sl at the moment because of the outcry thinking Dean wasnt going to have a sl but that still doesnt mean that Sam deserved a sl that does nothing for the trauma he went through
Even in season 2, Dean's spiral had more to do with the save or kill Sam secret than grief over John's death. In season 4, the vast majority of Dean's time was spent worrying about Sam going dark side with Ruby and his ultimate task was to stop Sam, rather than deal with his own Hell trauma. The entire point of season 5 wasn't about Dean deciding for himself whether or not he should say yes to Michael, it was framed as whether or no he could trust Sam enough to not say yes to Lucifer. Of course, then Sam decided he wanted to say yes anyway and Dean, then full of trust and awe at Sammy's strength, got to stand aside and cheerlead that decision.
Sam is and always has been this show's protagonist. Dean, while not technically a sidekick, is essentially the observer to Sam's magnificence. This season more than any other is reinforcing that message for me.
I get the whole desire for the mytharc but if Dean had that he would get everything else too which would futhur reduce Sam. I grant the season has not finished but people have expressed why they have concerns and why making Sam look so alright it would now look out of place him not being alright. These are valid concerns.
If some feel differently thats fair enough but I cant change how I feel . Sam hasn had anywhere near the focus on a personal level Dean has had and it seems set to continue .
I think the writers are going with Sam having earned his redemption by what he went throuhg in hell. IMO, Dean has had no such storyline yet. At this point(and hopefully after Dean finds his true calling as a hunter and the true reasoning as to the why of that calling), I would be more than happy for the writers to switch things up and give Sam that big emo storyline that it seems is so desirable(from what I've read) to his fandom, IF! they would also(and this is important) Follow. Through. Completely on a storyline for Dean that would make him the singular center of the myth-arc with Sam more in the support role this time so that Dean could earn some redemption of his own through a sacrifice involving his own bodily self, for the part he's played in the way events concerning all of humanity and the world have played out-as Sam was gifted with at the end of S5. Since it seems that the writers of this show have chosen to write in this either/or fashion concerning the myth-arc and emo SLs for the characters series-long, from what I've read at many Deanfan sites, this has been recognized, and most Deanfans would applaud the switch; and likewise, from what I've read, the Sam fandom wants more insight into Sam actually shown on the screen. It IS questionable to me whether the Sam fandom would be okay with his becoming strictly the support player for Dean as regards the myth-arc, though...
In any case, I doubt the showrunner/writers would go there, at this point. IMO, it's more likely we will get full-on Sam emo in the second half and if the writers have learned anything at all, at least a shared, but more equally pro-active role in the myth-arc this time around for EACH of the lead characters/actors. We'll all just to have wait and see.
Dean's roll in the so-called mytharc as Michael's vessel wasn't even introduced until season 5 and it only lasted for three-quarters of the season and then it was back to Sam being the only one who could save the world while Dean stepped back so as not to cast a shadow on Sam's glory.
After Sam's wall came down I was again excited to see an emotional fallout. The first two episodes were great and I looked forward to episode 3. In episode 3 we saw Sam with Amy, but we didn't find out anything about Sam only that he couldn't kill her. The flasback scenes were touching, great, but the now scenes were hollow regarding Sam. But I liked Jareds acting. And in the end it was a setup for Dean's "guilt and soul journey". Since episode 2 ended Sam is almost again hollowed out, absolut no emotions. And even in the episode "The Mentalists" where I thought they could give us some hints about Sam's former psychic abilities there was nothing.
Normally I am a fan who wants to see the brothers together. I like both I am very attached to Sam and its like starving to look at Sam and getting NOTHING.
Its very disappointing and frustrating and I miss and mourn Sam. What else can I say to make you all understand? I think the show lost its heart for me. I even wish now, that Sam and Dean part their ways and the bothers get equal time so I get actually insight in Sam, see him connecting to people, maybe he can work with a hunter, a native indian, or someone like Caine with some meditation, and I find out about him finally what I am waiting for since a long long time. And thats also sad to say that I came to this conclusion.
And this is someone who likes the brothers relationship normally, but now its just reached the top for me!!!!
I mean, I think they'll do some more with it, but I don't think they're gonna do substantially more than they did the first time this story was done.
Sam's hell trauma hasn't been ignored, it's been healed, totally and completely and with benefits to boot.
Exactly. Sams wall falling was gone before it even started I am not sure why I was surprised by this. I should of learnt by now that Sams issues and pain have very little value on the show .
He is Superman in disguise who eats Granola and runs.
Its almost like roboSam returned, but more zen-soul-calm then ever before. When Sam is managing and trying to overcome this all I want to see it onscreen and HOW he is affected. I want to follow Sam when he is running, when he meets people and is not sure of the situation and then he starts to press the scar to be sure what's real or not. I want to see him hesitating when he chooses a food and we could see him struggling because of the smell of burned flesh. He could hesitate when they are passing a butcher and he is seeing the hooks. He could show he is unsure is this the real Dean or a hallucination.
Sam is a victim of Lucifer and Lucifer surely made it clear that there was a sick love-hate obsession with Sam and I am sure that Lucifer "played" with the inherent compassionate and empathetic side of Sam Winchester. If Lucifer burned away this side in Sam so the show has failed to give us insight and understanding. Its like "hey you shouldn't like Sam and you shouldn't care for Sam, he is just the burden in Dean's life and made his life horrible" and about Dean "watch Dean 24/7 for all what HE went through because of the little brat of a brother"
I am even asking why is Dean still with Sam right now? What has Sam what gives Dean something he needs? Or is Dean feeling he can't let his burden of a brother alone because of "the other shoe will drop" scenario that is right now without confirmation, because Sam is onscreen plain and simple perfect. Maybe Sam is not Sam anymore because Lucifer has melted with Sam's soul somehow and right now we have human Lucifer walking the earth.
See I have no idea anymore WHO Sam Winchester is. I used to know Sam even in the times where he was already hidden in his own personal story and of course the first 3 seasons gave me "the core" of Sam. But it is past long time that the show gave me follow up on Sam's inner, his emotions in almost every episode- with some exceptions, but that's to little.
Maybe we should not care about Sam anymore but its Jareds "adorable fault" that I still do. I don't want to be forced with the tight Dean's POV the whole time and its maybe that the show says look Dean is not seeing Sam, so you viewers won't see Sam. And Dean has a specific view of Sam so the show gives us reasons for Sam's actions that fits with the POV characters vision.
It makes the character of Sam more and more hollow and the possible interpretions of his actions outrageous spacious!!
I even have the thought that Sam is not real that its all in Deans head. Maybe since the accident in season 1 all of the Winchesters died only Dean survived but is in a kind of coma and is imagining Sammy!!!! That would explain the lack of insight in my (still!!!!) beloved character!!!!
And my last request is what did Sam do in the desert for 3 days? Did he meditate, did he fast, did he pray, did he run, did he read, did he meet people???Was he upset, calm, happy, sad, scared???
That are things I would like to know so badly (still), but the show implies to me "give up your hope of ever getting insight or finding something out about our mystery Sam"
(sorry for some (weird) words english is not my native language)
In your opinion.
Well, write it, then. This article is about Sam and whether he's really okay.
I agree with so much that Tim the Enchanter and Sharon have said above. There was SO much buildup of how very horrible it was going to be when the wall fell, the physical consequences, the mental consequences - EVERYONE agreed that Sam probably would not survive it. But now it's almost mid-season and Sam is so "okay" that it's almost creepy.
I write a lot and read a lot about writing, and from a character writing standpoint, Sam has ceased to be a character in the story. There's just nothing to latch onto in order to relate to him. He's apparently physically superhuman (going from severe, bleeding-from-the-ears-and-seizing head injury to just fine in no time.) He's so emotionally tightly controlled that he can just turn his emotions off at will. He's supposedly seeing Lucifer 24/7, yet we don't see any evidence of it, and he never seems horrified or afraid, or even momentarily disoriented. I watched that restaurant scene again, and I didn't see anything except that Sam was pissed that Dean found him and plopped down at his table like they had not just had a big fight.
The few scenes where Sam is allowed to talk to another character lately end up being about how he's fine and how Dean is not. "Other people have it worse." Really, Sam??? Could you name a few?
I watched "Houses of the Holy" yesterday, and I was amazed at Sam's speech at the end. He was an actual person then, explaining with tears in his eyes how he felt about their work and their lives and his fears about what might happen to him. And Dean sat there and listened with such love and concern on his face. It almost made me cry, because the writers have completely abandoned that Sam.
It really takes very little, very subtle things to make a character sympathetic and relatable, but the writers just don't seem interested when it comes to Sam. He's the problem, the plot device, the burden Dean has to bear. I, too, give kudos to Jared Padalecki for doing what he can to make us care about the character at all, because it's certainly not there in the writing.
And when the other shoes drop, as they have told us outright through Dean's words that it will, it's almost guaranteed that Sam will be in the wrong again. It won't be something that happens to him, it will be something he does, and the focus will be on how Dean deals with it.
I will always love Sam and identify with him, because that's how I rolled in the early seasons. But I can't imagine a new viewer caring any more about him than about any secondary character. Sam is no more a hero in the story now than Crowley is, and he's less interesting.
Honestly, I think that many are sure that Sam is not ok only because he couldn't be after all that happened. But, watching the show right now, Sam looks ok, with no subtext to indicate otherwise. That might change next year, he will probably suffer some traumatic event that will set him back, and will probably be supernaturally fixed or Dean will help him. And then all will be forgotten again after the 1 episode devoted to it.
But, after all that he's been though - if psychological continuity matters to the writers - he can't be okay. The human psyche doesn't work that way. Sam might be a master of suppression or repression, but it's all down there... waiting for the right (or very worst) moment to emerge... I'm afraid of that, because it will mean more suffering. For both brothers and the ones close to them (and, of course, for us as fans, too)...
I always look at the show with a professional eye, too. And I've seen patients crash without any outer warning to it. In reality it happens occasionally, which might be one of the reasons I don't miss it - I simply think there is a big storm going on in Sam's soul, not visible on the outside.
I think though, some fans without that kind of background, would need a build-up like the one you're referring to.
I'm just curious where all this will lead to. Very. I have only minor complaints about the season. For me, there has been plenty of drama, for all characters.
Yup, JuliaG! It is basic Writing 101. That's why I don't think they can effectively tell Sam's story at this point. As you said, there's been no set up to his breakdown. They can go back to it all they want in the 2nd half, but I have a feeling it will feel forced and contrived.
Sam shows NO signs of falling apart. That is NOT good storytelling, IMO. If he's being set up for a breakdown, we should know it by now. I highly doubt a new viewer to the show would even know Sam has as many problems as he does.
They have also shown Dean punching Sam with absolutely no excuses other than his anger, unlike Sam who gets the supernatural excuse and then handwaves the actions himself or never mentions them again.
People on this very site have accused Dean of being a rapist for having Sam's soul put back while ripping Bobby to shreds for actually reacting to the fact that soulless Sam tried to kill him. Not that we ever saw Sam actually address what he did to Dean and Bobby during that time. Since they devoted so much time to Sam feeling bad over perfect strangers, but chose not to write even one scene that would allow Sam to actually confront the fact that soulless sam let Dean get vamped out and almost killed Bobby, I have to presume this is a deliberate choice. And the only reason the writers would do this is because once again, they want to sweep Sam's actions under the rug, even as they cast doubt on the ethics of Dean trying to restore his brother's soul. The contrast in how the two brothers are written is quite noticeable but I think the reasons for those differences lie in which character is perceived as the lead and therefore gets protected by the writing and which character is secondary and therefore expendable in terms of audience reaction.
I have seen this kind of writing for lead characters over and over again. They did it on Buffy, Dark Angel, Merlin and any number other genre shows.
Yes, they have shown Dean (and Sam, and Bobby) torturing and killing possessed humans. Strange though, that, Meg aside, the one time they emphasised the human side of possession, it was in relation to the nurse that Sam killed. For almost the entire time she was on screen, it was the human that we saw, a terrified woman who screamed and begged for her life before Sam took it. Compare this to the demons Dean tortured and killed in 6.21, at all times they remained snarky demons, no reminder to the audience of the humans inside who were surely as terrified as the nurse was.
Quote:
When, on the show, did Dean punching Sam get mentioned again? Dean punches when he is worried/angry. In the same situation, Sam leaves, and this has gotten as much, if not more, emphasis as Dean punching.
Quote:
And people on this site and others accused Sam of being a rapist for allowing Dean to be turned, a suggestion that was given extra weight by the transfer of bodily fluids.
Quote:
See episode 6.12, about 35 minutes in.
Quote:
Viewers cast doubt on the ethics of Dean trying to restore his brother’s soul, not the show. The same as the viewers cast doubt on Soulless Sams actions, not the show.
With all due respect lj, the show does not control what people on this site or other sites think, they only have a say in what goes on screen, the response to what is shown is the responsibility of the viewer. You decide who to give a pass to, who to judge and who to sympathise with etc.
Sorry, but the show does not tell me what to think or what to feel. I'm more than capable of doing that by myself.
Sam is not protected in any way IMO as season 4 and 5 are testament to that . Look there are simple ways to inform a audience on what is going on with a character esp a lead
Either the writers view Sam has a lead character and has a human being with feelings and a pov as a brother, son and individual or they dont it appears to me they dont. .
If that sounds harsh then I am sorry but they have treated Sam harshly for me and this situation with Sam (asking again what is going on with him is he ok ?) should not of been happening in a season where there is no mystery or mytharc around him .
I feel its just a change of story line serving to showcase Dean's emotions and overwhelming guilt, burdens, feelings. It would take away from Dean's emotional journey when we would see Sam having problems. People would think when Sam is not okay, Dean would take care and put himself to the side. Isn't this what some want? That Dean has a storyline for his own and its not related to Sam? Well, but Dean said that the other shoe would drop, and we will probably not see why and what is happened what is the reason and maybe its again something similar to the demon blood drinking and we find out in episode 16 17 or 18???
Sam should not be okay by any means. I would have loved to see Sam staying the first episodes at Bobbys while Dean is hunting with another hunter or with Bobby and someone would be there for Sam. I wouldn't have mind to see them seperated because in the end they can't stay from each other for long and they shouldn't. But what they have done is shoving feelings, emotions to the side from Sam, and want to see emotions, feelings and not a superhuman, supernatural shell of the very human essence of Sam. I agree to others who say that if not for Jared we would have lost our love for Sam. Jared is the only reason I am still attached. He has no supporting, emotional scenes from the writers, even in the "Sam Centric" episode (3) it was about Dean. We saw Dean with his leg in the hospital, we saw how he was out and came back and had pain and worry, and we got nothing from Sam. There was something in the end of episode 2 and in episode 3 it was "ditched" and Sam's first scene was we see him reading a book. I have to admit I loved that scene nonetheless and I even stopped my DVD to look intensly what was there on the table, in the room, and what kind of book Sam read, but I couldn't find out. Is this such a big mystery that I want to have clues about Sam and what he is thinking and feeling....and readin, and that I want to see Sam coming back from the unconsciousness and that someone is caring for him ...and to see him recovering instead of Dean ...or both of them? That are hints that the writers doesn't think twice about how Sam is sensed from the viewers , they simply doesn#t care or more harsh they make it from purpose because we should feel with Dean and not with Sam!!!! There are thousands of little scenes where it is implied the same what I just wrote and that is really frustrating.
I love Sam still!!! Its not dead my feelings for this character but its hard, very hard. For me it is not only a tv-show that I enjoy, I am really captured and think about how can I make steps away because how the writers hurt Sam's character and giving him absolutly no scenes to feel for him. What another poster said when someone comes into the series in season 7, they don't care for the character of Sam. How can you when there is nothing to feel for him??
Oh Sam!!*big sigh*
And yet, the show never mentions again what Sam did to that woman. We never see him show remorse. Which suggests to me that the audience is supposed to have forgotten about that incident or handwaved it as something Sam did while on demon blood and therefore not truly responsible. Whitewash.
Quote:
Dean himself mentions again, usually in the form of an apology. The only time there was not apology forthcoming was when it was soulless Sam. I do agree that there could be a parallel with Sam running off, but since it is visually so much less shocking and defamatory to a character the actual violence, I don't believe the writers themselves are drawing that parallel. I would have believed they were after Dark Side of the Moon, but since new and improved season 7 Sam ran off with apparent complete justification and with Dean's cowed blessing, then I do not think the writers thought he did anything wrong.
Quote:
Could you provide a link? I would be interested in reading that analysis and I don't recall seeing it.
Quote:
That was yet another one of Sam's infamous generic apologies. To this day, I don't know if Sam even knows that he let Dean get turned by a vampire. It certainly didn't seem to resonate when he was trying to get Dean to go back to Lisa in the Mannequin episode or when Sam was berating Dean for wiping Lisa and Ben's memories. If there was ever a time for that to be brought up, it would be in relation to Dean leaving Lisa and Ben. Yet nothing. Nada, Zilch. So Sam either does not feel any remorse of the actions of soulless Sam on Dean (unlike the oodles of guilt he had over perfect strangers) and the bomb he dropped on Dean's family life or once again the writers want the audience to forget it happened in order to protect the character. Again, whitewash in my opinion.
Quote:
Really? Then why did everyone and their brother go on and on about how putting Sam's soul back would destroy both Sam and soulless Sam? What was the point of even raising the issue if not to cast doubt on whether or not Dean was making the right choice. And let's not forget that soulless Sam's point of view on not wanting to be resouled was give plenty of airtime too. What was the point of any of that, if not to treat this as a morally gray issue which casts doubt on Dean's actions?
Quote:
On this point, ITA. I feel like the show has been trying to make me love Sam best since day 1 with the Greek chorus of characters telling me how smart and special and blameless Sam really is despite some truly awful behavior, compared to his needy, pathetic, stupid, alcoholic guilt-wallowing brother. And that doesn't even touch on the double standards within the writing which holds Dean responsible for his many mistakes with any excuses except his own flaws while Sam is always, always given the supernatural get out of jail free card.
Quote:
Me either but it is interesting how diametrically opposed our views are of the show and the characters.
I don't understand this. How did Sam drop a bomb on Dean's family life? He personally wronged Dean, agreed. He owed Dean a great deal of guilt, agreed. (Though we'll have to continue to disagree on whether or not this was shown sufficiently.) But how exactly did he ruin Dean's family life? Why is Dean running off and putting Lisa and Ben in danger on Sam's head? Vampire!Dean didn't seem mentally influenced or de-souled or anything of the sort. He was in a different emotional state because of his condition, but he was in full possession of his faculties. So why is his boneheaded move on Sam's head?
It's like saying the guy who forced booze on the drunk driver and then handed him the car keys, had no responsibility in the drunk driving accident that followed. Was the driver responsible -- of course, but he wasn't alone in setting the sequence of events in motion.
Not that the show would ever bother to put that much thinking into their scripts. All they care about is cool, shocking twist of having Sam look evil and then they just ignore the full consequences so that Sam is never made to take responsibility for his actions.
I mean why bother with an episode like Unforgiven if they were not going to bother addressing what was done to Dean and Bobby? As a viewer, I don't give a damn about a bunch of one-off characters that soulless Sam did bad things to a year earlier. Nor do I care how many Ruby look-alikes he banged while without his soul. I care that soulless Sam did some massive damage to characters and relationships that I have grown to love over 6 years and the show keeps telling me are important, yet none of that is directly addressed by the show's protagonist when he is wallowing in the guilt that he has a built-in free pass for anyway.
So tell me again, why I am supposed to believe that those characters or relationships actually are important on the show?
So I guess the upshot of all of this is that for me, it's not that Sam's feelings and POV do not get explored. It's that the writers seem to have mostly Sam focusing on strangers or himself, but rarely on his brother. And even when he does finally get around to noticing that something is up with Dean, Bobby is telling him not to bother. The same Bobby who was nagging Dean in premiere to dig into how Sam was doing.
For me, this kind of writing creates a sense of imbalance between the characters. I feel like the relationship is largely one-sided, especially because they will never let Dean move on from his role as Sam's wet-nurse, no matter how many times he is beaten into learning that lesson. So while I feel that Sam gets his share of emotional exploration and POV, I don't particular like what we find when they pull back the curtain.
No, I'm sorry. Still not getting it. That analogy doesn't work for me because the person being fed drinks is being robbed of his decision making skills. Their brain function is impaired. Dean's was not. He was put in a bad situation but his choice was entirely his own. And it was a monumentally stupid one.
Had Sam not been lying and there actually hadn't been a cure, would that have made the decision any better? Would it then have been ok for Dean to possibly kill Lisa and Ben? No! Therefore the lie had no bearing on the decision.
Soulless Sam's actions put Dean himself in a great deal of danger and were a act of absolute betrayal towards Dean. But I do not buy that the collapse of Dean's "normal life" was at all on his head. That was all Dean.
And the point is that soulless Sam did know about the cure and having different info may have changed Dean's choices.
If you cannot understand how having different information could change someone's choice or see the parallel between craving blood and craving alcohol and how that might affect one's behavior, then I think it's probably because you are looking for reasons to blame Dean and excuse soulless Sam, even though Sam himself doesn't have a soul and therefore already has the built-in whitewash already. And since the show clearly agrees with you, I have no idea why they even bothered with Unforgiven.
Excuses aren't blanket. Sam's soullessness excused his emotional decision making, not his logical one. If Soulless Sam sucked at math, that wouldn't be because of soullessness, that'd just be because he sucks at math.
Likewise, Dean's bloodlust does not excuse his ridiculous goodbye tour. If he'd bashed Sam's brains in on the way to some tasty blood, I'd excuse that. He'd have been driven by his cravings. This decision to visit Lisa and Ben had nothing to do with his bloodlust.
The only thing that factored into that was his emotional state of mind which he himself is entirely responsible for controlling. If blame for a decision is handed out based on who put you in a generically crappy situation, I suppose Dean should get the blame for Sam's decision to use his powers and start drinking demon blood. After all, his emotional state after Dean's deal did "affect his decision making skills".
That's not how it works. General emotional state does not work as a blanket excuse. And the events and people that lead you to that state do not hold the sole and total blame for your decisions.
Soulless Sam knowing about the cure and not telling Dean does not excuse Dean's idiotic move because that move wouldn't have been the right one under any circumstances. If there hadn't been a cure, if Soulless Sam had actually just decided that he could sacrifice Dean, would that have made it ok for Dean to visit Lisa and Ben? Is it only wrong to put them in danger if Dean has to live with it later?
How ironic that this describes Soulless Sam to a T, but while Dean is expected to own what he did while vamped, you don't expect Sam to own what he did while soulless.
The show had her tied to the table and begging for her life for more than half an episode, how much more emphasis did you want? Sorry, lj but I don’t think the show has the time to show Sam and Dean’s remorse for every single person/demon they’ve ever killed.
Quote:
He apologised in Bloodlust. Did he in 7.03 or following the beating he gave Sam in 6.06? Also, running away might be visually less shocking but usually stems an awful lot more debate and is usually portrayed as having devastating consequences. His running away pre-Pilot led to the family being estranged for years, his running away in Bloodlust led to Dean being captured and himself almost being killed. His leaving in 5.03 left him open to attack and to Lucifer. His leaving in season 7 led to him being drugged, married and also being deemed a ‘bitch’.
Add to that, Sam also admitted he was wrong every time he left. However, you must realise that Sam is not four. He’s an adult. In season 7, all times he left, he told Dean he was going so how in the name of God is he running away?
Quote:
Up at the top of the main page there is a link that says ‘episodes’, click on that, and start reading. Have fun. Alternate to that, head over to IMBD or CWTV and start trawling. I’m not enabling anyone else’s lazy habit. I’m way too lazy for that.
Quote:
So in other words, Sam’s apology wasn’t good enough for you. Well, nothing the show can do about that. In relation to whether or not he knew he let Dean be turned, he knew, and he apologised profusely for it.
Dean, I am so, so sorry...... For what I did to Bobby, to you.
Kindly realise that just because you feel Sam’s apology wasn’t enough, doesn’t mean it wasn’t given. No matter how much you might want it, Sam can’t spend three quarters of every episode apologising to and flagellating himself before Dean for the grievances you hold against him.
Quote:
Um, to give the viewers something to think about, and talk about during the half term? So viewers would be excited and watch when the show was back on? And lj, for everyone who said Dean was wrong for putting the soul back, someone else said he was right, including me.
In relation to the gray area the show was to portray, well this isn’t a show for the lazy. Almost every action these two characters take are immersed in grey. How else do you explain the blood drinking, or sleeping with Ruby, or killing the nurse? I mean, God himself told Sam to stop doing what he was doing, that it was wrong (yet you’re saying there’s a ‘whitewash’ of Sam’s actions!!).
Also, does the fact that Dean was proved monumentally right to put the soul back not make this gray area a lot more white?
SPN is a show that inspires debate. If easy viewing is what you’re after, then find an episode of Barney.
Quote:
Dude went to hell, that’s far from ‘free’, in my opinion.
Also, given what you think of Sam, seems the show hasn’t done a great job of getting you to ‘love Sam best’. And considering the amount of ardent Dean and brotherly (and Castiel, Crowley, Bobby and John) fans there are out there, and the numerous polls etc out there consistently show Dean’s popularity, seems if this was their master plan, they did a sucky job of it all round.
Of course, unless the show is not trying to get us to love one more than the other but are merely putting two different characters and having them react to different situations and letting us make up our own mind?
If the show wanted us to be blinkered in favour of Sam I could think of half a dozen instances where they could have changed one tiny aspect of an episode and we would have greater insight of / sympathy towards Sam. We would not have seen him so dismissively kill the waitress in 6.22, or arrived too late when Dean was being turned instead of standing idly by and grinning while he was. Hell, we could have gotten rid of entire Soulless Sam storyline and focused on Sam being returned damaged. We could have seen heavenly memories that didn’t make him look selfish, we could have found out why he ran away when he was a kid, we could have not seen Sam pick a fight with John right before he died, we could have seen how Sam’s time in the Panic Room affected Sam, we could have gotten some insight as to why Sam said yes to Lucifer, we could have found out how Mystery Spot affected Sam in the long term, not dismissed it, we could have found out what he did/felt the ten days he wasn’t with Dean or the three days he went camping, we could have seen Bobby saying Sam was his favourite or Ellen giving him a message. We could have seen Sam save Dean from hell. Jeez, we could have seen Jo have a crush on Sam, or any woman that wasn’t a monster or who didn’t die have a crush on him. Way more than half a dozen there (and I’m not even trying).
Quote:
Is this how you see Dean? Bloody hell, lj, may I ask, why on earth are you still watching the show? You seem to loathe Sam and want to hold him accountable and apologise for everything from global warming to the recession. Add to that, your dismissive attitude of Dean and all that he has done is truly staggering.
Have you forgotten the Dean of the past six seasons; the one who gave up his life for his brother, who fought tooth and nail for his family, who puts his life on the line to save strangers, who will give up everything he wants to help others?
Honestly, to describe Dean as needy, pathetic, stupid, alcoholic absolutely beggars belief.
Quote:
What can I say, lj, we’re not pod people, all blindly agreeing to something, and thank God for that. You think the show is trying to manipulate viewers into favouring Sam, I think nothing could be further from the truth. I feel if the show were ardently pushing one brother over the other, it would have ended years ago.
However, lj, this is what you take from the show so fair enough. Like I said, I can't see it, even if I were to squint really, really hard.
Thank you thank you thank you for taking the time for this detailed and great reply!
I wouldn't have found the words, partly because such posts muddle my feelings often enough!!
Quote: I actually disagree completely. This is a show for the lazy -- lazy writers who have been underestimating the intelligence of their audience for years. They want an audience that does not question plotholes or OOC characterization. That isn't bright enough to know that there is a huge gap between what the characters say and how they act. This show works well for viewers who just want simple escapism where they can turn off their critical faculties. But it's ridiculously easy to see the flaws in the writing, whether for Sam, Dean, Castiel or Bobby, if you have even half a brain switched on. I mean isn't that the crux of the complaints about the writing for Sam?
Also there is a difference between morally gray -- Sam or Dean doing the wrong things for the right reasons -- and whitewashing, as in Sam does something shocking and horrible to his brother. Then two episodes later, the show blames the victim in one form or another.
Quote:
And yet they managed to devote all of Unforgiven and the season 6 finale to complete strangers that Soulless Sam had killed and the associated guilt that real Sam felt over that. But not a peep over the nurse and beyond that, they had Bobby, Castiel and Dean be complicit in murdering more hosts to feed Sam's need for blood in the season 5 finale. So ultimately the presentation of that as a morally questionable action was completely whitewashed. Oh look, there's that word again. By the end of season 5, every supposedly "wrong" thing Sam did in season 4 had been re-enacted with Dean's blessing. He was wrong to go after Lilith for revenge in season 4 but in season 5, Sam kills Bradey for no other reason and with Dean looking on in full support. The shock and horror of Sam drinking demon blood becomes the key to defeating Lucifer and saving the world. Choosing Ruby over Dean became completely justified because Dean drove Sam to her by being so bossy and controlling. Sam resenting Dean being the one chosen by angels to save the world turns out not be jealously or arrogance but truth. Sam is the only one who can save the world after all. I see that the writers think this is Sam earning his redemption but what I saw was that Sam was actually right at every turn in season 4 and season 5 was Dean coming to realize that. Sam did not work for his redemption, Dean just gave it to him after Cas and Bobby emotionally and physically beat the crap out of him and Sam, for once, was actually there for Dean instead of running off on his own to prove himself like he usually did, and like he did again this season.
Quote: I think we will have to agree to disagree on Sam's levels of maturity because I don't think leaving your brother alone in a cabin with a broken leg and hopped up on pain meds so you can sneak off to find an old crush, is the act of a responsible adult. And even if you buy that it was enough to leave a note which gave no info other than I'll be back in a few days, and disregarding the fact that you are hearing voices in your head that led you to a warehouse and almost caused you to shoot your brother, and which might cause said brother to have some concerns despite the one-line note, the fact that Sam refused to answer Dean's calls pretty much does categorize this as running out on Dean, in my opinion. So yeah, that whole line about Sam being wrong to run off was clearly just another line he handed Dean in order to convince Dean not to say yes to Michael.
Quote:
Wow that's not at all condescending. I am really starting to see why you identify so strongly with Sam.
But to address your point rather than your tone, I do not require half an episode worth or apologies. How about one line -- Dean, I let your get turned into a vampire and ultimately that cost you Lisa and Ben. As opposed to Sam basically calling Dean a jackass for not answering Lisa's calls (all of which happened off screen much like Sam's story according to you guys)and acting like he didn't have a clue why they would have broken up. By that point, the writers had clearly decided they were done with soulless Sam so after watching him treat Dean like crap for half a season, I as a fan of the character that he abused all that time, did not even get any catharsis in terms of the fall-out for Dean being addressed. Watching Sam wibble over spider people or the waitresses from Eureka is not the same as actually seeing an honest conversation revolving around the supposed heart of the show which is the brotherly bond, where Sam actually owns up to how badly his brother has suffered because of him. Sort of like how Dean very specifically owned up to being wrong to make the deal and causing Sam to suffer. Or how he apologized for being to bossy or not trusting Sam at least three times in season 5 alone.
Quote:So did Dean. What's your point?
Quote:
Well if I don't find those posts, I have no reason to believe that POV was presented on this website which is what you said.
Quote:We I am contrary that way. Buffy was my least favorite character too. Same goes for Lana Lang who also got the most-favored character treatment. In fact, nothing turns me off a character faster than feeling like they are being shoved down my throat. Just because the writers are arrogant enough to think they can manipulate audiences, doesn't mean that it will work for everyone or even the majority of the audience as was the case for Buffy, Smallville and Supernatural, just to name a few.
Quote:Come on Tim, you can do better than that. LOL!
You know damned well that I am being facetious by using words that the writers themselves have put in the mouths of other characters when describing Dean, and not just the bad guys. Sam and Bobby have both said or strongly implied that Dean is stupid, pathetic,whiny etc. I didn't characterize Dean that way, the writers did.
But you know, if you want to play that game, let me throw it back at you. How can you possibly claim to love Sam when you have no idea what makes him tick? If his presentation has been so completely unsympathetic, how can you stand this guy? Why would you even bother wanting to know more about what goes on in his head when it's clearly such an ugly place? How can you even call yourself a fan of the show if you think they have done such poor job of presenting the lead character? See how that works?
Quote:Nah, can't do it. I would miss your superiority complex far too much.
Okay then...... This audience does indeed question plotholes and OCC characterisation, take a look at many of the articles and post on here. And no matter what you think of them, the audience are neither lazy, unintelligent and from what I know, they all have full brains switched on.
Quote:
Mistakes and lazy writing? No, I think it’s quite the opposite. I don’t feel it’s a mistake that they’re not writing from his POV, I think it’s intentional.
Quote:
Kinda like what happened in 7.07? (And you say Sam never apologises!)
Quote:
Possessed hosts, therefore they were demons; demons killed in the hope of stopping Lucifer. Would you rather they were left alive? Course, then not only would you have more demons running around the place, Lucifer would still be there, killing all around him?
And I have to say, lj, I’m a little confused. You seem resentful of the fact that the people he killed while soulless were acknowledged but also resentful that the nurse wasn’t. Which do you want? To have the people Sam killed acknowledged, or have them ignored?
Quote:
Except for the part where he released Lucifer, and slept with a demon, and beat up his brother. No amount of writer manipulation can make the audience forget that ‘wrong’.
Hey, maybe he got Dean’s blessing, and forgiveness, because Dean saw the sacrifice Sam made as making amends for all he had done wrong prior to that? Maybe he empathised and finally understood the depths of despair Sam sunk to following Dean's death, as he too had been there in 2.21. And you know what, fair play to him. It seems that Dean judges people on their actions. He doesn’t need a verbal apology again and again.....
Quote:
Sam killed Brady because he was demon who not only killed Jessica but was planning on releasing the Croatoan virus on the population.
Quote:
Not at all, had Dean said yes to Micheal he too would have saved the world. He’d have saved it for the angels, which is what they wanted. Half the human population would have died but the world would have been saved.
Quote:
Releasing Lucifer was right?? Oh man.....
Quote:
Sam worked for his own redemption by sacrificing himself to the Pit. He earned Dean’s trust, forgiveness and redemption by (in season 5) not losing faith in him, no matter what Dean did.
Quote:
Dean was three weeks into his recovery. Even I can manage fine after three weeks with a broken leg. Same with Sam, as Bobby said, he hadn’t had any hallucinations and was doing fine. Would you rather Sam were kept locked in a padded room for the rest of his life?
Also, Sam went after a kitsune who was killing people, not to find an ‘old friend’.
And I think that the show acknowledged Sam’s ‘running off’ when Dean punched Sam in the face (unless that’s your idea of a ‘whitewash’?)
Quote:
Cos I’m tall and have brown hair? Lj, tone is something that the reader takes from the piece of writing, not what the writer writes. A poem’s tone can be interpreted many different ways based on the person reading it; therefore the tone you took from it is on you, not on me.
Quote:
He apologised, in 6.12. You’ve already been given the quote. Sam didn’t cost Dean Ben and Lisa; Dean cost Dean Ben and Lisa. And he sealed the deal when he had Castiel wipe their memories. I didn’t see Sam driving him to that. Contrary to what you seem to believe, Dean is his own man.
Quote:
It happened on screen, and was also acknowledged on screen, in 6.13.
Quote:
He didn’t have a clue, because he was never told. ‘You ever mention Ben and Lisa to me again and I will break your nose’. Sam has a nice nose and Dean has a hard punch; maybe that’s why he didn’t ask.
Quote:
There have been nine episodes of the fallout being addressed so far this season, and surely more to come.
Quote:
Waitresses are people too.
I dare say that in 6.16, Sam did acknowledge how badly his brother suffered because of him, ‘Some of us pulled a lot of crap, Dean’.
Which would you prefer to see, lj, someone constantly saying they’re sorry or someone constantly proving they’re sorry. Were Sam’s actions is season 5 and the latter half of season 6, not proof enough that Sam was sorry?
Quote:
My point is that you said he got a ‘Get out of Jail free’ card. I said he went to hell. That’s hardly get out of jail free, unless you’re playing with a different monopoly set to me.
Quote:
lj, I don’t know you, therefore I have no clue what you are like. You might have been being facetious, you might not have been. Your comments about Dean thus far have certainly suggest you’ve little time for him, as all you see him doing is apologising, grovelling and being stepped on; hardly the traits of an admirable character. You may say you were being facetious but I ain’t a mind reader.
How can I call myself a fan of the show/be able to stand Sam? It’s very, very easy. I don’t look solely at what is on the surface. I look at Sam’s going to college and I don’t listen to what the show tells me, that Sam is a selfish bastard for going, I try to think of why he would go. I tie that up with the introspective bits of Sam that we do get, and I develop my own opinion. I don’t look at Sam drinking demon blood and think ‘God, he’s one stupid dick for drinking it’, I try to think about what state of mind he’d have been in even consider drinking blood. Simple really.
I want to know more about what is going on in Sam’s ‘ugly’ head because I’m interested in people, and what drives people to do what they do. I also teach history, and history today is not just about memorising dates and event’s, it’s trying to examine and explain why people did what they did. No person, alive or dead, is a mere cardboard cutout. Every act, no matter how heinous, had (to the perpetrator, anyway) a justifiable reason behind it. That’s what I look at. I don’t look at Dean drinking and think ‘alcoholic’, I think ‘Ok, what’s going on in his head that would make a hunter want to get rat-arsed thereby endangering himself and others.’
That’s why I like the characters on SPN, and the show itself. I look at them and am forced to think ‘Could I do what they did?’ That’s enjoyable to me.
Quote:
Finally! Hear that everyone, I’m superior. Hah, kneel before Todd, my ass. Down on your knees before Tim!!! lj, thank you so much!.
First of all, I consider myself an intelligent person able to think for myself. I work hard all day, and the last thing I want from a television show is for me to have to analyse it to death, I am not a critic. I happen to like pure escapism, either in book form, movies or television. If I want the cold hard reality, I'll watch the news or read the paper.
As you've said, we are all entitled to our own opinion. Seems to me you don't really like this show anymore and that's my opinion.
The stories I hear from some of my patients sometimes are far more atrocious than this show has come up with for its characters.
Though I like to suffer with Sam, Dean and the whole caboodle (which is a strangely masochistic streak I've noticed in me
It's a high standard escapism, and for me that's the best kind of entertainment.
Best, Jas
To my mind it has character development written all over it, moreover it's in consonance with the journeys these men have taken. Their psycho-social reactions are inherently consistent, and according to their characters. If they were patients of mine, I wouldn't wonder about this or that, because it would be fitting, coherent and harmonious in terms of their characters. But, well, that's just me.
The fact is there hasnt been anything stopping them from showing us if not Dean or Bobby but us signs and scenes Sam isnt aright .Intelligent people cant all be wrong and if they feel esp this time the writing hasnt served Sam then they arent anymore in the wrong than those who feel fine with Sams writing.
It doesnt mean we are watching a different show. Personally I have found Sams writing damaging to him rather than benefits him but that just how I feel.
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions. You are allowed to feel about it as you do, and I'll do the same.
I said from my perspective I don't find it out of character that Sam or Dean react like they do these days. Their reactions today don't appear to be too far off to my mind, and I see their developments in terms of dealing with their ordeals in their own ways. And I don't feel like posting a long comment explaining in detail why I am of that opinion. In this case it would have been better, I presume, to not have said anything at all.
I didn't mean to offend you, my apologies if I did, and I assume neither did you.
The execution of this story is simply awful, IMO. I don’t care what happens in the 2nd half of the season with Sam; they have done a spectacularly poor job w/this story. Writing is all about momentum, and Sam’s story had tons in the first two episodes, but after 7.02, his story came to an abrupt halt and the momentum in his story was lost. IMO, they can't just pick it up again w/o it seeming contrived and forced. I have no favorite character. I'm a "bi-bro" fan but I can’t help but feel this crappy storytelling would not be occurring if Dean had a “Hell Wall” collapse. Dean would be getting an emotional POV. Why isn’t Sam getting that?
I started to realize that Sam was getting NO emotional development in S5 and hadn't been getting much of any since S2. I was impressed w/7.01 and 7.02, and I foolishly thought things had changed, but now I KNOW that the writers don’t care about Sam. Sam’s sole purpose on this show is to provide Dean w/angst and to cause Dean problems. He has NO voice in his own story. It's strange. These writers seem wholly uninterested in exploring Sam’s emotional development or giving him a POV. For that reason, I sincerely hope nothing else happens to him as long as the show remains on the air. He can just hunt and help Dean. The writers don't seem to like writing for him on any emotional level, so they need to stop letting crazy, traumatic things happen to him like being in Hell 180 years or learning demons have been following him throughout life or making him drink demon blood. If any of these things happened to Dean, I'm sure we would have rec'd Dean's POV on them AS WE SHOULD. We would have gotten Dean's journey to the point of drinking DB or at least one episode w/FBs to help the audience understand why Dean went down that path. AND that would have been appropriate and good storytelling. Why the rules change when it comes to Sam, I'll never know or understand.
The 1st season was the best at giving both boys' POVs. We were cheated out of Sam's feelings re: John's death in S2, but we did get a lot on how he felt about John's message to Dean and the possibility of becoming “evil.” We got a lot of perspective on how Sam felt about Dean's deal in S3, but not enough on how Sam felt about Dean's sacrifice for him. Dean gave up his life for Sam, and we got that one comment at the end of 2.22 but nothing else.
Don't even get me started on the lack of Sam POV in S4. Oddly enough, I didn't notice the lack of Sam POV back then. I still love S4, but they could have done a much better job of explaining Sam's position on Ruby and how he started drinking DB. From S4 onward, Sam's POV has been either been truncated and limited to a single episode or flat out ignored. It's never been fully explored. I loved “Unforgiven,” but I would have loved to know how Sam felt about almost killing Bobby or letting Dean get vamped. It was briefly mentioned. I really enjoyed Robo!Sam, but, as usual, the impact of that crazy situation was never really explored for Sam. We know how Dean felt about it, but we don’t know how the person who actually experienced felt. Why let Sam do these things or have these crazy things happen to him but not let him express any feelings about them??!?!? It doesn't make literary sense to me.
In short, I expect nothing much to happen w/Sam's Hell. We got the best we're going to get, IMO, 7.01 and 7.02. I have a feeling that the execution of this story - whatever it is - will be poor, IMO. Not to begrudge Dean his emotional arc/journey, but if they simply had to split the season, it seems like Sam's issues should have been addressed first. I'm confused as to why they stopped his story before it even started.
As each episode passes, to me, it makes less and less sense, IMO, to revisit Sam's troubles w/Hell, esp. since we are not being given any hints that he's NOT functioning. He appears to be functioning well. I see no nightmares, no struggling to manage the hallucinations, no spacing out, no trying to focus while on a hunt or in a conversation w/Dean or anyone . . . I see NO STORY. To suddenly have him flipping out or breaking down in the 2nd half of the season (if this actually happens) will not make much sense to me, and the entire plot (the Wall / Sam's time in Hell) will have been pointless and a waste of time.
If they weren't planning on doing anything w/him re: his experience in Hell, then they should have just left the Wall in place. There was no need to let it drop if they were going to do a half@$$ job w/the consequences of the Wall dropping.
If the writers aren't interested in Sam emotionally, then stop putting him in wacky situations where any normal person would have feelings or have trouble coping, but not Sam . . . the robotic man! What kind of story is this?
Well, I WISH we could be done with Sam's hell whether it comes across as bad writing or not, simply because after almosr an entire season of nothing else BUT Sam's most horrible hell ever, I am ready to move on from on it. And, IMO, the reason that they're dealing with Dean's issues first is because they were on the cusp of losing a ton of Deanfans, in addition to the Cas fans because someone made the grand decision that if something works well, they should just get rid of it, anyway. If Sam is your favorite, again I say never fear because since S4, the showrunners have been making the Sam's story the centerpiece of the season finales and often those episodes that lead up to it also.
Also Sam has had plenty of focus in this first half of the season, IMO-even if it hasn't been on his angst. I can only hope that Dean will get as much focus after HIS "emo" storyline has been tied up.
The "threat" of loosing "Dean"fans or "Sam" fans is really old and I think it is an empty threat. Don't even start with Castiel fans. I am glad he is gone!This show is not about Castiel and never was, just like Bobby!
I just want to see the person Sam between all that other issues and the show denies it!
Hell or not hell, how he is dealing, what is his experience alone in the desert, what is he seeing while running? This requires not much from the writers to give it to me as a part of the fandom. A few scenes in an episode and I have what I want! Its not much, but I think they don't care for the person Sam or they don't dare to delve into his personality, because they have no idea how as a counterpart of Dean.
Its (very!!!) sad for me!
Since you may only care about Dean, it may not bother you that Sam has no POV, but it does bother some fans. I'm one of those fans.
And I don't think the show gave Dean an "emo" arc b/c they were scared of losing Dean fans. Fans of Dean only have nothing to fear w/this show b/c it's told from Dean's POV. What are you so upset about, Shana? You will always know what's going on w/Dean. You will always know how he feels.
The Dean fan in me is fine w/that. The Sam fan in me would like that for Sam, but I realize that ain't happening on this show.
I do wish Dean had a better plot/storyline this year, but that's a whole other post.
Resolving this problem will be tricky because this isn't a case of demonic posession. Mental Lucifer is a representation of Sam's Hell trauma which would make him a part of Sam's personality. To conquer Mental Lucifer or at least have supreme control of him, Sam needs to tackle his Hell trauma like he has never done before. Forcing Mental Lucifer into submission may turn him into an unexpected helper in the interest of his and Sam's self-preservation like Neural Scorpius aka Harvey was to John Crichton in Farscape.
So either Mental Lucifer is in full control of Sam or he takes over Sam from time to time, not all the time, and puts in fake memories in Sam's mind to cover up the blackouts which may have occured during the time he was on his own after taking a break from Dean after the Amy bombshell and when he was apart from Dean before It's Time for a Wedding.
IMO, Robo was representative of a human being without a soul, nothing more. Dean would have acted the same way without his soul, without the part that makes him human.
I'd rather we get a story about Sam, the person, not Sam, the supernatural freak.
I would hate the scenario you describe, Justin, because it essentially writes the Sam I have come to know out of the story and substitutes another character, albeit one still played by Jared Padalecki. Even at his absolute lowest and worst point in season 4, Sam was still relatable and identifiable, because his intentions were good. You could still root for his redemption. I don't see how anyone could do that if he's Mental Lucifer. Once you make a character a full-on villain, there's only one choice, and that's for the hero to fight him and win. I know some viewers would be all for that, but I wouldn't watch it.
What you describe here would be a kind of post-traumatic psychosis. Sometimes people that went through horrific traumatic experiences develop similar symptoms, but are not "really" schizophrenic. They sometimes see people that are not there (often the ones that were responsible for their trauma, in this case: Lucifer) and are fully aware that it's not possible - which is an indication that they are not "really" psychotic (forgive me if this is confusing, I'm trying to explain all this in more-or-less layman's terms).
One of the characteristics of a psychotic person is that he is not able to be aware that the person he sees is not there at all, but a hallucination. It takes medicine to help them do that.
Sam, after the first shock, has realized (with Dean's help and the distraction the "pressing-the-hand"gesture provides) that Lucifer is an image in his mind.
I'm quite curious if and how the writers will address this issue further. Cheers, Jas
Many things since Fallen Idols, but mainly this:
"It seems to me the biggest problem with this show is that they seem to have run out of ideas. Hell even Dean's emo arc for this season is essentially the same story they have telling every year since season 2. The only story they seem to be adamantly against is giving Dean in their attempts so-called literary symmetry is any kind of a central role where he is important simply for himself rather than as an extension of his brother. That one, they seem to have zero interest in recycling."
and this, both by lj-who, btw and from what I've read in my travels, is doing a terrific job of presenting many others' feelings on this subject, IMO. She is most certainly saying much that *I* agree with completely-so if you want to know more of why I'm so upset, go back and re-read her posts.
"If soulless Sam had never set Dean up to be turned in the first place Lisa and Ben would not have been in danger. Or even if he had told Dean that there was a cure, which he clearly knew about, Dean may not have gone running to Lisa to say a last goodbye.
It's like saying the guy who forced booze on the drunk driver and then handed him the car keys, had no responsibility in the drunk driving accident that followed. Was the driver responsible -- of course, but he wasn't alone in setting the sequence of events in motion.
Not that the show would ever bother to put that much thinking into their scripts. All they care about is cool, shocking twist of having Sam look evil and then they just ignore the full consequences so that Sam is never made to take responsibility for his actions.
I mean why bother with an episode like Unforgiven if they were not going to bother addressing what was done to Dean and Bobby? As a viewer, I don't give a damn about a bunch of one-off characters that soulless Sam did bad things to a year earlier. Nor do I care how many Ruby look-alikes he banged while without his soul. I care that soulless Sam did some massive damage to characters and relationships that I have grown to love over 6 years and the show keeps telling me are important, yet none of that is directly addressed by the show's protagonist when he is wallowing in the guilt that he has a built-in free pass for anyway.
So tell me again, why I am supposed to believe that those characters or relationships actually are important on the show?
So I guess the upshot of all of this is that for me, it's not that Sam's feelings and POV do not get explored. It's that the writers seem to have mostly Sam focusing on strangers or himself, but rarely on his brother. And even when he does finally get around to noticing that something is up with Dean, Bobby is telling him not to bother. The same Bobby who was nagging Dean in premiere to dig into how Sam was doing.
For me, this kind of writing creates a sense of imbalance between the characters. I feel like the relationship is largely one-sided, especially because they will never let Dean move on from his role as Sam's wet-nurse, no matter how many times he is beaten into learning that lesson. So while I feel that Sam gets his share of emotional exploration and POV, I don't particular like what we find when they pull back the curtain."
I haven't been able to buy the brother bond since Fallen Idols. The Mentalists helped somewhat with that, but I've come to accept that Sam might never be "likable" to me because the writers won't allow me to like him because they won't allow him to FULLY and SPECIFICALLY own his less than loving behavior and deeds concerning his brother and that have w/o a doubt played a part in Dean's life-long feelings of no/low self-worth. If the writers see nothing wrong with Sam taking off on Dean(note or no note) when Dean is physically injured or when he supposedly knows that Dean is in a very, very emotionally unstable place, then so be it. But they're not endearing Sam to me, in any way, by having Sam see nothing wrong with that-especially when they would have us believe that Dean doing it is the "expected good brother" reaction-except for those times plot-wise, when it's "wrong" or "too OTT" and "holds Sam back".
I also agree with the other poster who said that the writing for all the characters has become horrendous since S5, but Dean alone I still love with all my heart(and this, probably more because of Jensen, than anything else).
Did you ever like Sam? If not, then I can understand why you could never root for him again after S4. I was less than thrilled w/Sam's actions in S4 and the crappy reconciliation in S5. I hated Fallen Idols as well, but I saw no point in "hating" Sam for not saying the "right" things when it became clear that the writers didn't think there was a problem.
The writers don't care about Sam or his relationships w/anyone - strangers or family. Sam is a plot point for Dean.
I never hated Sam, so when he went off the deep end in S4 and wasn't given any persepctive in S5, I didn't hold the "bad writing" against the character. It's literally NOT Sam's fault that he has no perspective and is written like a robot.
Supernatural a Dickens Classic .
(**In Sam's defense, I completely understand how he was in such a place of despair Ruby was able to get past his defenses and ingratiate herself with him to the point where he shut out everyone else. But I think we can all agree it wasn't a good thing, right?)
I guess I was the only one who never trusted Ruby. No matter how many times she helped them, I always believed that she was using the brothers, Sam especially. Which is why I never considered her a friend to Sam. For goodness sake, she was a demon after all.
- Be respectful. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. It's okay to politely agree to disagree. No slamming someone with a strong reply because their opinion differs from your own.
- NO Sam vs. Dean. In other words, NO knocking down Dean to build up Sam and vice versa. I accept that we all see the brotherly dynamic differently, but try to support your points with examples.
Thank you. I know this has been a hot button topic and I've been away for a few days, so I've let go far more than I should. I'll take the blame for that one, but I'm watching from here on out.
Here's the link to our rules:
www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/news-and-announcements/64-rules/14338-we-are-a-happy-site-but-there-are-rules.html
I'd like to add - the characters in the show have been able to forgive each other for what they have done (there was, for instance, a very moving scene at Rufus' grave, if memory serves), yet some of us fans keep reproaching the characters with their mistakes in the past.
I'd like to suggest that we take them as an example and be more forgiving to characters we love. After all, they can be very inspiring in many aspects, if we allow them to be.
Thanks, Jas
May I recommend to perhaps read the odd article again (
Again, thank you. Take care, Jas
Other than that, and over the course of the series, I have to disagree strongly with those who see Sam/JP as having been short-changed by the writers and their writing, more than any other character/actor on the show.
Forgiveness is a blessing. I don't see a reason to hold a such a grudge against anyone (in particular against a fictional character), and whenever I can, I try to be forgiving. And I hope I will never cease to find it in me.But, I can only speak for myself.
Cheers, Jas
I am sure Castiel will be back. I have no idea how they might do it or if it will be Cas (or his "human" alter ego), but I hope, too, that we'll see more of him. I don't think you'll have to worry about that.
Your post in interesting because I finally understand the depth of anger from Dean fans about "Fallen Idols", where many felt that Dean's justifiable anger was cut off at the knees, and he ended up apologizing when Sam was the one who had betrayed him.
And this season we got "The Mentalists", where Dean lied and betrayed Sam's trust with Amy, yet never apologized and Sam got yelled at for being angry too long.
And yes, it made Dean a whole lost less likeable to me, so I understand you would feel that way about Sam.
Again, for me, only in that one thing I mentioned-not over-all; not IMO.
Sam suffered a huge life altering situation here and it hasnt really impacted him . His whole life has been one thing after another but the lack of personal focus for me has seen that get lost in everything else.
So in the scheme of it all Sam just had to be all well and what was the quote 'there are people worst off than me' all nice and neat and tidy.
The fact that you have two main characters who went to hell and were brought back is a little redundant in and of itself.
I agree with your entire post, and especially this. There's this attitude that Bobby and Sam were somehow dismissive of Dean's pain that I don't at all agree with. Not being dismissive does not entail coddling, especially when the fate of the entire world hangs on the actions of the person you're trying to get through to. Dean's had a lot of rough breaks in life. He has a lot of wounds that cut deep and will probably never heal and that the actions of those around him will at times exacerbate. They know this and care but their existence shouldn't be dictated by how much it will or won't play into his issues. And sometimes the immediacy or gravity of the situation overrides how gentle you feel they should be with him.
I find it very interesting to see how Dean is struggling to keep a sane head on his shoulders and deal with it all. He's a quiet hero, but a hero nonetheless.
One of my favourite defintions of a hero comes from French novelist Romain Rolland: "A hero is a man who does what he can. The others don't."
This holds true for Dean, but also for the other protagonists of our beloved show.
I can see that you and some others miss a "storyline for Dean" which is a view I can't share. I find plenty in that department. There is character growth, grace under fire, new and heavy loss, etc. etc. etc. I don't miss a storyline, simply because I am convinced it is there. For me, it always has been.
Considering he is the main pov character he will never lose out. And being given a so called sl means little if as a character your pov and thoughts and how it impacts you is either ignored or glossed over . Sams sls havent meant much to him but has meant alot to those around him and how it impacts them.
Just to squash any of this from the start. I’m neither one girl or the other. I watch for the interaction of both brothers. Therefore I’ve never seen Dean as useless or without a storyline or anything else he was accused of. If I did like one thing about the mentalist is was the one line that “that one’s true gift can be to take care of others”. I don’t see that as a bad thing. But neither do I see Dean as a whole saint some want us to make believe, as I don’t see Sam as the “bad” brother. I try to look what motivates people in doing what they do and not only the act itself (unfortunately – and here I blame the writers – they left much to guessing)
Since the article was about “if Sam’s ok” I will argument more from his point of view.
Yes, Dean’s whole life seems to be revolving around his brother. Why? Well he had no other to grow up with and was given a huge responsibility. He could’ve either declined to take care of Sam and be a brat or take on that responsibility. Dean chose door number two. After a while it was in his blood, Dean switches often from brother- to father-mode (I could write a whole article about that alone, but that would go too far here). And every one of you who still got parents knows that they’ll always see you as their child (and sometimes treat you like that) no matter how old you get. So Dean not being able to let go of Sam is the fatherly part of him. Me, as a “child” (even if I’m old enough to….ok, let’s skip that), tried often enough to rebel against said parents, as Sam sometimes did. I don’t see anything out of the ordinary up to here.
I also don’t like to watch my hero’s being superly perfect without any faults. Faults make them human, make me connect with them. Hell, even Simba from “lion king” got his father killed, before he grew up and took his rightful place (maybe not the best example, but still stands…).
Sam did go with Ruby (one thing this fandom seems to never let go). Was it right? Not in my opinion. Could I understand it? Somehow yes. Dean brought Sam back from the dead because he couldn’t bear to be alone. It was selfish – and he admitted that in 3.1. But in return he left Sam to be exactly that, alone. Why should Sam handle it any better than Dean? Because he left his family already once for Stanford? He didn’t abandon his family. He wanted to go to college – never once did I hear a mention of Sam not wanting to see his family anymore. But the John Winchester “If you go out that door…”-line pushed Sam out for good. Is really anyone out there who can truthfully say if that line were presented to you, you’d stayed home & said “Oh yeah, ok. If you put it that way I see your reasoning…”. An ultimatum by most people is answered with exactly the opposite of what you want. That’s why Sam didn’t stay when Dean presented the exact same line in 4.21. Why did Sam also “abandon” Dean? I assume, since we haven’t heard anything else, that Dean never took a stand in that fight for one party. It doesn’t matter to John but for Sam he was like a father and to not take his side made him probably think that Dean’s on John’s side. I guess he felt abandoned too. Here again is the writing to blame…too much room for interpretation too few answers.
Back to Ruby. Why didn’t Sam break off with her when Dean returned? At this point he was already an addict. I know some alcoholics…you cannot argue with them. I also read that Sam could’ve stayed with Bobby. Could but didn’t. From the interaction between Bobby and the boys I can safely say that Bobby is a Dean-girl. He has deeper and longer conversation with Dean than he has ever with Sam. And Bobby also admitted that Dean is his favorite. I just think that Bobby was too grief stricken himself to really try to hold Sam back and so was Sam. Maybe Bobby reminded him too much of the time he and Dean had there…again too much room for speculation. This is only one example! Sorry if my reasoning is all over the place and not that well thought through like i.e. Tim the enchancer. English is not my native language.
All I’m trying to say is that if you hate Sam nothing I did write up till now or anyone else for that matter is gonna change your opinion. But if you try and not only look at the action commited but the road that led to them you may understand a character better. Look into your own life. Most actions you take have a string of reasons that led to them…only some impulsive.
So is Sam ok? I would wonder if he were, but again we’re just assuming and that’s my problem I have with season 7 so far. I can see that Dean is not ok! It is emphasized in each and every episode. But with Sam, I see nothing. He’s the poster boy of ok. And I cannot believe it. After the build up from season 6 about the wall coming down I get one heavy conversation in a warehouse and everything is fine after that? If a trauma was resolved that easily we wouldn’t need mental health institutes. Sam is portrayed as this super hero, that I mentioned above and that I don’t want to see. Of course I don’t expect the writers to leave him a drooling vegetable. But being perfectly ok from one episode to another is not dealing, it’s sweeping under the rug. By the time they may or may not pick up that storyline again, it’s momentum is gonna be lost. I don’t see why they couldn’t have to storylines parallel written? Each fandom has to wait for half a year until their favorite is picked up …and the other supposedly dropped, when they could’ve dealt with both characters at the same time. But that only my opinion and I am no writer.
I don't think it's a huge part of fandom, but it's a very persistent part. Pretty much any article that focuses on Sam is going to end up attracting a certain type of comments -- the ones we've all read over and over, ad nauseum.
It's up to the rest of us to steer the discussion back to the original topic and bring fresh ideas to the discussion -- or to just hush and follow along -- which is what I'll do now.
...but, well, as you say, the persistence of some fans is definitely there, occasionally appearing to be verging on the militant, not allowing another perspective.
I hope you're right that it's not a huge part. It seems to be the loudest, though
Cheers, Jas
Me neither, but he's been w/o a uniquely all of his own and independent of Sam's connection to the myth-arc and big storyline of a show that's theme is the supernatural for 5 of the six and half seasons that the show has been on the air. And the fraction of S5 that we thought had finally given that to him, was ret-conned away by the writers at the end of that season. A large protion of this fandom is still very unhappy with that. If some choose to see that as Sam vs Dean, I'd have to disagree. One can view anything about the show as Sam vs Dean, if one wants to-even the thought that Sam is getting short-changed by the writing, or we never get to see Sam's POV, but we ALWAYS get to see Dean's...So take your pick of where/when the Dean vs Sam started here. To me, it became more of a debate predominantly about the writing that arose from the title of the article-and I honestly did not see that as a bad thing, but this is why *I* post here so infrequently because some make others feel that if there isn't agreement and utter pleasantenss and everything isn't perfectly PC, then it wasn't a good discussion. I felt there was some very good discussion and debate here, and I would love it if someone from the show had read it. By it's very nature, it can often be uncomfortable and disconcerting to consider ideas and thoughts that oppose one's own, but sometimes that's how we grow. I kind of kept being drawn back here, which is how I could tell it was good-at least to me.
Everything could be turned into a Sam vs. Dean...but does it always have to?
I don't have have problem with different opinion's only with how it is sometimes presented.
I get that everyone wants to speak for his beloved character and it is fine with me if one has good arguments and examples. But I'm mostly shocked into silence by the amount of pure hate some ppl seem to have against a fictional character (even more so when this hate is broadcasted to the actual actor).
Actually this was only my third or fourth comment (if I counted correctly) in months (not only on this site but in total).
Anyway, I am sorry if I implied that every comment here is a Dean vs. Sam. On the contrary. Some had very valued points with whom I agree totally. Only the heated one made me shake my head.
Yes, I have been complaining about the lack of Sam POV. However, I don't begrudge the writers giving us Dean's POV; I just want Sam's POV as well. That's the difference.
Granted, I don't like Dean's story right now, but that b/c I think the writing is bad. I'm not saying the writers shouldn't explore Dean's emotions. I'm fine w/that. But I also want to see Sam's POV.
Ditto I dont begrudge Dean any sl.
I am just trying to understand right now what they are doing with Sam and their thinking behind it? . It is such a empty follow up to such a massive trauma .
So far, the whole Hell Wall scenario has been pointless and has done nothing to serve the character!
Sam vs. Dean is difficult when examining the plight of one brother because the series is about both of them and their often turbulent relationship. In this particular discussion it's been especially hard to avoid. The only rule I ask to be followed is not to knock down Sam for the sake of building up Dean and vice versa. I really haven't seen that happen. Here's an extreme example. "Sam sucks because the show is all about Saint Dean."
I don't want anyone to feel they can't post here. I'd like to think it's a forum that anyone is welcome, but I do also understand some sites aren't for everyone. All opinions matter here. I love seeing them all. In this case there have been a lot of strong opinions. That's okay. However, if anyone thinks that a comment has violated our standards of "be respectful", just hit that "report to administrator" option or send me a message through "Contact us." Thank you.
Before the season began a lot of people were worried because they thought Dean wouldn't have a plot; that it would be all about Sam and Sam's broken wall, and poor Sam, and it was, for a grand total of two episodes, and the rest? All about Dean and his angst. Not that it isn't great, I love both brothers with equal passion but I just wish they (the writers) didn't have to sacrifice one brother's story for the other (which is what it's been feeling like so far this season). Or maybe it's just because they don't have the budget to get Pellegrino back???
We've (maybe) been offered one glimpse into Sam's head since episode two, during the Mentalists when Dean finds Sam in the cafe and for a minute or two Sam just sits there gaping at his bro as though wondering if he's real or not, and it's only when the waiter addresses Dean directly does Sam snap out of it and the two have a conversation. Now I've read many reviews for this episode and some said that because Sam didn't do the whole hand rubbing this isn't real thing that he did not think it was a hell-ucination but what if the opposite is true, what if he just missed his brother and hell-ucination or not he didn't care, that maybe it was just nice to have Dean there. After all no one knows what happened to Sam in those 10 days the brothers were apart, maybe some of it was spent with NOTDean?
All I know is that if the writers are trying to blindside us with an "OMG Sam is still crazy" wallop to the head then they are doing a good job, maybe too good because all that I see when I watch is Dean and Sam is starting to feel more like a cardboard cutout.
RSS feed for comments to this post