Eric Kripke Defends "Swan Song"
Wednesday, 04 August 2010 20:18 | Last Updated on Thursday, 05 August 2010 00:14 | Written by Alice Jester | 
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When I had my chance to speak with Eric Kripke at this year's Comic Con, by the time he got to us he had already defended his actions a few times about "Swan Song" and addressed one of our questions as "Open to Interpretation, make of that what you will." After seeing all the reports filtering in from the other interviews though, all I can say is that I never thought I could love this man more, but I do. He says in his words of wisdom what I always interpreted from the finale, but he says it so much better.
This is Eric's exact words at one of the press tables when asked in a roundabout way if Dean's role was diminshed in the finale:
"Everything can be open for interpretation. Far be it for me to tell fans what they think of the show is, it’s for them. I can just tell you what it meant to me. This show has always been about family from page one to page five thousand. It’s never been about one brother, it’s been about the relationship between the both of them. For me it’s like a ying/yang thing. Salvation of the planet depended on both of them acting equally. And had Dean not decided to sacrifice himself and go to be with his brother because of the love and relationship between them trumped all. Had he not learned to do that, to forgive his brother and love him over the years of training and learning experience of the show, then he would have never gone out there and Sam would have never seen him, never would have seen the car, and he would have never had the strength to take over his body and save the world. So to me, that’s a two man alley oop."
(Question) He played the role he was intended to play.
Yeah, and one he would have never done in the Pilot but learned to do in the finale. To me that's what it's all about. But people, you know...as long as they're watching they can think whatever the Hell they want.
Kripke also was open when Maureen Ryan asked about where Sam and Dean are in their epic hero's journey right now.
"I think they finally reached a massive amount of growth and maturity. For me in "Swan Song" one of the thing I insisted about ending it the way I ended it whether it was the series finale or not is not just wrapping out the story line but getting them to an end point that we've been building towards since the beginning of the show. For me, that's always been what the show's been all about. Certain fans have complained that it wasn't big enough and my point was sorry but, I wish you guys love it but, the show has always been about these two brothers and their growth as characters, ultimately reflected in Michael in Lucifer, in how Sam and Dean could do all the things that Michael and Lucifer couldn't. They had to accept each other as grownups, they had to forgive each other their faults, they had to come together, they had to mature. Dean had to learn to not just accept Sam as a freak but accept that being a freak is good and okay and smart in its own way and he's not a little brother anymore and Sam had to grow up too and appreciate Dean as the two of them. For us, that's what the show is about and that's what saved the world. That the two of them could forgive each other.
Now, in season six, just to be honest, we look at season six as a sequel to a movie, there's going to be a new story line and there's going to be a new series of problems, and in a way I think is going to be lovingly, which I think the audience is going to love and drive them nuts at the same time, new problems. So they've reached a point and they've come together but now there's going to be new problems. They're going to have new issues that they've got to work through. Their therapy isn't done yet."
This is my take on everyone's attitude at Comic Con, especially Eric Kripke's from being in that press room. What's done is done. Season five and the whole apocalyptic arc are in the record books. Sure, some fans were upset, but Kripke was not apologetic and had no regrets. No one had regrets. Sera Gamble and Ben Edlund are following their visions and are accepting that they'll find out when episodes air if fans like it or not. They don't seem to be worrying too much about that though. Jensen, Jared, Misha, and Jim are all very excited about the new changes and have no problems whatsoever with the directions their characters are going.
So, in other words, everyone is moving on with renewed invigoration and ready to do something different. As a viewer, I'm excited and honored to be part of that as well. I will watch with open mind and full trust. I really really hope everyone else will too.
For all the latest Supernatural info and article links, follow The Winchester Family Business on Twitter at @WinFamBusiness
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Comments
I can't wait to see what season 6 will bring us.
Kripke's right. He and I have wildly, WILDLY different views of this television show. But hey, he can think "whatever the hell he wants." He'll never convince me of the Dean Winchester that exists in his head, because I've been watching the one on my TV... the one who's created by a number of influences, of which Kripke is only one. The ideal version of Dean in his head may not have loved Sam before Swan Song, but the one I was watching sure as hell did.
The episode was just stupid. The demon blood drinking, what was I watching Twilight? The graveyard scene was a hacked together mess, until Dean crashed the boring talky fest. It wasn't just Dean fans who felt so. If you want I can link to some real critics who felt it was lacking.
As you say, it’s all open to interpretation but of course Kripke isn’t going to publicly disown the finale (even if his interest had apparently waned to the extent he hired a computer game writer to pen it). How would that look to the network: one of its show runners admitting that he turned out substandard material? Which IMO he did. And neither are the show's stars going to express any misgivings at a Conference set up specifically to publicize the show… although interestingly Misha Collins did let slip the producers were aware that the finale wasn’t popular at the previous Con, which is perhaps what forced Kripke to acknowledge it himself at this one – *which he did*.
I actually think at this point he would do himself a huge favor with fandom if he was upfront about what was left out instead of referring to it opaquely, as a series of percentages. Otherwise it looks like he purposefully and cynically jerked the collective chain of a large portion of the show's fanbase, in order to keep us hanging on and maintain the ratings, while all along intending not to follow through on major plot points that were in the show. My feeling is they are in for an unpleasant surprise when the ratings for S6 start coming in – I’m probably not going to bother watching it live any more.
And yeah, Like Amelia: *Dean had to learn to love Sam enough?* WTH is that supposed to mean? Because to me it sounds like Kripke is saying that S1-4 Dean didn't. Which is not my feeling after watching this show from day one. How anyone can get behind that statement and support it in any way, shape or form, is mindboggling to me.
And as for this: "being a freak is good and okay and smart in its own way"… I'm sorry, but this isn't computer nerdishness we’re talking about. This freakishness drinks demon blood, beats up on its brother while under the influence, and ignores all the warnings that tell it it is on the wrong path – and to cap it all, it releases the devil! Yep, that’s way cool. Kripke's statement renders everyone who tried to stop it (namely Dean) *not* cool. I really can't believe he said that – I’m scratching my head over it.
Swan Song is my all-time favorite episode because it perfectly reflected the ideal of family. That it can defeat anything. Sam and Dean finally accepting each other and trusting each other is so beautiful, and it saved the world.
I feel sorry for fans that can't see and enjoy that. I'm just glad that Kripke got the chance to explain himself.
Ie, the freakishness to which we are referring is an addiction to a drug that may only be obtained through HUMAN SACRIFICE.
I can guarantee you, if anyone in my family was murdering people so they could drink their blood, I wouldn't consider it loving AT ALL to excuse that. And I would spit in the face of anyone who told me I just didn't love them enough because I didn't condone it. Human sacrifice is not okay, and it continues to not be okay even when a showrunner tells me it's "good and okay and smart". No. No, it's not good, and it's not okay. And it wasn't even smart, because the first time, it released Lucifer, and the second time, if Sam hadn't accidentally caught sight of a little object, it was taking them on a crash course toward the future we saw in The End.
No, I'm afraid blood-drinking is a big ol' fail. Sorry, Mr. Kripke. It may mean a lot to you, I dunno, but I just can't compromise on killing people to drinking their blood. And I don't think Dean loved Sam any less because he thought it was a horrible thing to do. Sorry. Just not buying what you're selling, man. And frankly, I know you gotta promote your show and all, but I'm not even sure YOU are buying what you're selling, because it's sure not what you were writing (beautifully and heartbreakingly) in season 4. That felt authentic. This felt like you got scared and backtracked.
The Winchesters need to win -- ultimately win and live to fight another day -- otherwise what the hell is the point?
Thank God for season six.
I NOW understand Kripke's intentions, but the way they set up the story line didn't "speak" to me in that way at all. Up to "Point Of No Return" we were getting "You're going to yes", "You have to kill your brother", "This is destiny" THAT'S what I was waiting for cause that's what they kept shoving down our throats.
I felt that the connection the boys had in the first 3 seasons was so diminished by season 5, the finale fell flat. Love? Riiight.
If Kripke has to explain himself, obviously something didn't come across as he hoped it did.
If the writers would have gone a different way with the story arc, I probably would have liked it better.
Still, I can't stay mad at him... Damn you, Kripke!
There's an awful lot of spinning going on here...(edited, this part is being moved to another area relevant to that discussion. It is not being deleted)
Why are you so freaked that a few disgruntled fans are making some noise?
You've said it yourself. They tell the story they want to tell so why should it bother you if people express dislike of that story or the comments made by the show's creator?
As for moving on, I think plenty of people will be doing just that next year when they move right on from the show so it's all good right?
For the record, I loved Swan Song. It hit me on a deep, emotional level and even after several viewings I could never get through the end without crying!
Bring on Season 6!
Unfortunately, I have only been able to watch Swan Song once, but I do know that it was hard to watch. I can understand that some fans would have had their own very specific ideas for how the S5 finale should've gone down, and that's likely the main reason they are disappointed. I, however, trust in your vision, and now Sera's vision, for the show because you have not let me down yet. Not once.
Thanks, Alice.
I respect Kripke though. We don't exactly see eye-to-eye all the time. I thought he could have done a much better job on pacing and content for season 5, but I realize that his job is not at all easy, especially with this fandom harking down his back constantly, and so I'm glad at least he was happy with his work. That's all that should really matter.
And I second kazamigorical's question - does Kripke read sites where people who love his work post? I hope he knows that we are out here!
A far as I am concerned he has no need what so ever to defend Swan Song, but I hope after hearing this some people can now understand it a little better, I also hope he knows just how much some of us loved it.
I want to thank you a lot, though, for giving us Kripke’s statements here. I love his level-headed attitude and I have always supported where he wanted to go with his show. There might have been some loose ends left in the end, and occasionally curiosity is killing me with ‘what would have happened, if…’ or ‘what about…’, but I love the show nevertheless. So far Supernatural has never let me down in terms of expectation or storyline, even if there was the odd weaker episode – but that’s not really important to me. It has given me, from the beginning, a lot of fun, great acting to be in awe about, and so much more I don’t have to list here. You know what I mean. The show's marvellous characters have a new journey ahead, and I am eager to follow that.
Love, Jas
I'm getting rambly now. Anyway, thanks for posting this and letting us know how Kripke sees his "Swan Song". In the end it is his story and if he feels satisfied with it and ready to move on then good for him. I'm just glad I got to come along for the ride. =D
Surely this is just your opinion, based on your interpretation of one session with Eric Kripke at the con? He made statements to other people that could be construed very differently, and also acknowledged that the reception for Swan Song was overwhelmingly poor: something you continually deny.
(The rest of this post is being moved to another article relevant for that discussion. It is not being deleted).
So Kripke is saying that Dean DIDN'T love Sam prior to Swan Song? Dean had to LEARN to love Sam? Seriously? WOW.
And Dean just had to learn to accept that drinking demon blood is all good? I guess instead of wanting to kill Ruby, Dean should have been encouraging Ruby's influence on Sam because being a freak and drinking demon blood is actually "good and smart and okay" according to Eric Kripke. Poor Dean, he's only a lowly (non-freak) human... he never stood a chance at being portrayed as a hero in Kripke's story.
I guess the moral of Kripke's story is that Dean was wrong about everything. Dean just didn't love Sam enough, and his importance in the show was learning to do so. Sam was THE hero and Dean was just the brother who had to "learn" to love him. No wonder the show has Dean apologizing to Sam every other episode... he apparently has never loved Sam enough.
He explained himself because journalists asked, but he was a man coming across with no regrets. He was pleased with what he wrote and how he wrapped up the arc.
I think if Kripke got any more questions at this point, he'll dismiss it as "open to interpretation." So, think what you will with anything done or said, but he's moving on.
Not after all the episodes in which it was proved time and again that Dean was and would always be a hunter - even when he was Dean Smith.
I'd like to know if that bit was written after they knew there would be a season 6, to set up the next chapter. Otherwise, I just can't see that as fitting in with Kripke's canon. :-?:
Does anyone really think Lindelof and Cuse don't stand by their "Lost" finale? How about David Chase and his UBER-controversial ending to "The Sopranos"? Talk about negative backlash, and yet, if you don't think he stands by it to this day, you'd be dead wrong.
So, no, I simply do not expect a producer or showrunner (or actor) to come out at Comic Con, of all venues - which is nothing more than one big honking PR event intended to get asses in front of TV sets and in movie theaters, and everyone knows that - and admit he screwed up or didn't like his own script, or that he wishes he wrote it differently, or whatever. Forget the ego part of it - there are network execs who dictate budgets, and who gets fired and who doesn't, attending this event.
No, fans aren't stupid and they do not expect these guys to do anything more or less than what they're being paid to do - promote the show in hopes of retaining an audience for a sixth season, especially with a Friday night move. That's it - that was their collective job at Comic Con.
All this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with how the product was received. The "Supernatural" finale, like the "Lost" finale and "The Sopranos" finale I mentioned above, wasn't a huge success with fans. They know that, they've known that for months, and that fact is not going to change. Fans who liked it will continue to like it, fans who didn't won't, and won't have their minds changed. And no one fan has the power to dictate to other fans how to view this or that script or product. We aren't Stepford Wives, after all.
I didn't like the finale as a whole - there were scenes I liked, but overall, I thought it failed miserably, and it's among those episodes I simply won't ever go back and rewatch. And, honestly, I thought except for a handful of episodes, the entire fifth season was their absolute weakest to date.
Yet, I still hope for better in season six, I really do. I still love the characters, some more than others, but I've invested five years so far, and I'd like to stay to the end.
But, I'm approaching it with caution, and if they don't convince me very early into the season, I will stop tuning in. I've done it before, and that's my perogative, which is neither right nor wrong, it's just the way it is. I'm the consumer, after all, and I either buy what you're selling or I don't. That's quite simply how it works.
So I think he chose the best option... following his own vision, as fara as possible, and ignoring the inpossible to please fandom...
I liked some parts of Swan Song and I disliked some parts... But I will be in front of my laptop in september and I will be there to see the next adventures of Dean and Sam... There will always be parts I like and parts I don't like... but that is with every show...
Eva aka Pinkfox
“Very nice! I agree with all of this.”
To quote some of what Tara said: that you don’t expect a showrunner to admit he screwed up at a massive PR event (which sorta implies he did screw up), that the Supernatural finale wasn’t a huge success with fans and the showrunners know it and have known it for months, that the finale failed miserably and that it’s one of the episodes you won’t ever go back and rewatch, that the fifth season was the weakest to date, and that you will stop tuning in if it doesn’t improve in season 6.
When you posted to say you agreed with "all of that," you totally undermined everything you have said in support of Eric Kripke and the finale. Since I agree with all of what that poster says, that's fine by me!
LOL, this is what the Samfans spent all of season 4 doing. It seemed to work for them.
If those previous fans were given their due and granted fair weight for their grievances, why should another group of fans not be given the same consideration? And going on to another blog or stating here that people should just let it go and quit griping about it seems to be unfairly balanced in whichever direction the blog owner prefers. Which is sort of the definition of bias, IMO.
Alice, I commend you for posting such an incendiary opinion and giving fair space to the many respondents who've posted opinions to the contrary.
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Ah, I see. Well then, YAY for the CW for renewing, because otherwise Dean and I would have been getting very drunk over that ending. LOL
I never did get how a one-night-stand ended up being a representation of stable family life. I would have believed Dean getting back together with Cassie, since they actually had a relationship. Lisa was just the bendy yoga instructor hookup.
But then, to me, Dean didn't want *a* family, he wanted *his* family - Sammy.
Kripke: "the show has always been about these two brothers and their growth as characters, ultimately reflected in Michael in Lucifer"
Huh. I'm not sure what Kripke means by this exactly since Dean was easily replaced by Adam in the Michael-Lucifer showdown. Well, I guess it could mean that Dean is, in fact, expendible in his story, which yeah... "You're not part of this story." Duly noted.
Kripke: "Dean had to learn to not just accept Sam as a freak but accept that being a freak is good and okay and smart in its own way and he's not a little brother anymore and Sam had to grow up too and appreciate Dean as the two of them."
So Kripke lists all sorts of things that Dean had to learn to accept about Sam (oh and drinking demon blood is good, yo!), but he lists nothing specific that Sam had to learn except to "appreciate" Dean as the guy who supports him? More blaming of Dean. :roll::
I mean, look, I can understand that if you're primarily a fan of Sam or not really a fan of Dean, how Kripke's comments wouldn't bother you. Sam was the hero all along and Dean was just the screw-up sidekick who needed to learn a hard lesson about loving Sam more. But I gotta say, these comments by Kripke pretty much destroys my love for this show.
Well, maybe Dean will be in better hands with Sera Gamble as showrunner? Maybe Dean will be seen as a hero too and not just a guy who's wrong all the time? I hope so.
Maybe the "vibe" was different in the actual room. But from watching the videos, which I assume were uncut since we had multiple versions of the same interviews from different angles, my read on Kripke is that he was defensive and scrambling for explanations.
That's the only thing that makes sense given his comments about Dean not loving Sam enough to stand by him and sacrifice himself until the finale.
" He said Sam's outcome was the planned all along and it was Dean's story that changed when angels were introduced. "
This is hardly a revelation to anyone who has watched the show from the beginning. Dean's only role in the first three seasons was to worry about Sam. Kripke himself said at CC prior to season 4 that Dean had finally been included in the mytharc. The problem is that he dropped the season 4 storyline for Dean to shove him back in the side-kick/supporter box in season 5.
But beyond that, the last three episodes were just a mishmash of poor plotting and baffling character turns. I'm actually surprised that so many sam fans liked it since Sam actually comes off looking worse than any of the characters because of the blood-drinking. It's only Dean's intervention that gives Sam the "strength" to get his ass into the hole with Michael. But Sam's grand plan was actually an abysmal failure, and Dean showing up was never a part of it.
I didn't see how Dean's role was diminished. I'm a huge Deanfan and even I thought that he saved his brother by trusting him and then by staying him even if he had no hope left. For me that's brave and heroic. Only because Sam trusted Dean and believed in him, Dean didn't say yes to Michael which meant that he could be on the graveyard as himself and not as opponent for Sam. Sam didn't make the same mistake twice and told Dean about his plan to trap the devil.
I thought the angels were a lying bunch because Michael could have posessed anybody in the Winchester family and only because Michael was such a freak to follow God's plan he wanted to posess Dean rather than Adam or Sam.
I still think the writers could have done a better job with the apocalypse, creating more urgency and a more epic feeling to the season by simply giving Lucifer a storyarc besides complaining about God but I certainly love their ending and that the boys saved the day and not some stupid magical trinket.
I was so grateful after the finale that he had stuck to his guns and made the finale all about the relationship of Dean and Sam and that that relationship would save the world, not being mere meat suits for some dickish archangels. I was sad when poor Sam and Adam went into the pit but loved the premise that was true to the series. And Sam is out, and hopefully Adam followed or will follow, so what is there to not like? Nothing, for me.
Great to hear how enthused everyone is from Jensen and Jared and all the creators. Love the boys, the relationship and looking forwards to another great season.
(Looking forward to news about the amulet. Can't help but want that bauble back around Dean's neck and everything that it stood for in the past)
At the end of season 4 I had thought when Ruby compared Sam to Dumbo that she meant that the power did not come from the blood and he had the power in him the whole time. Instead the way Eric explained it didn't make it seem like that all. It seems it was all about choices and the blood being like a battery. :evil:
So when Sam drinks the blood in the finale I did not like that. If Sam was Lucifer's true vessel why would he need to strengthen his body with demon blood in order to contain Lucifer? What happen to what we learned earlier in the season? That the boys were from Cain and Able's bloodline and that was why they were suited to be vessels.
I have been frequenting TWoP lately trying to pick up some pictures for my collection and I must say that it seems as if the posters there have all ganged up on Alice here for daring to post Kripke's side of it. Never have I read a more sick inducing bunch of posters as I had there. Why they even continue to post about a show they only spew their bile upon amazes me.
And so now I am a Sam/girl just because I LOVED Swan Song and the way the finale was written. For your information, I love both brothers, but I am a died in the wool Dean loving woman and I have NEVER found his role diminished in any way whatsoever. Dean has been my hero since I first found this show and he will always be my hero. My entirely human hero! I love Dean Winchester as if he was a real living person!
This show is built upon the brotherly relationship and would be nothing without that. Dean and Sam. Not one or the other above and beyond. Dean loves and has loved his little brother since he was four years old and now has to reconcile that love with accepting Sam's powers. He does not love Sam more now or any less.
These negative posts are very unpleasant reading for me but I guess those posters don't like reading mine either.
I only know if I was feeling the way they do, I would not be either watching or posting about the offending series. I do realize that for some, pulling things apart and dragging them into the mud are in some way satisfying to them.
You have more patience with these things than I do Alice, and I admire you for it. Continually being accused of being something you are not is most tiring.
Thank you Alice for posting what Kripke had to say (which I loved to read and agree 100% with). I only hope that he knows how many of us loved his show right up to the finale and agreed with his conception of it. If not for this man, none of us would have anything to love or spew hatred upon.
I AM NOT A PR PERSON OR A SAM/GIRL!! and do not appreciate being accused of either. I am a Winchester/girl who is madly in love with the badass smartass Dean Winchester, who loves and has loved his brother since forever with a brother/father slant. He was more of a father to Sam than John, afterall.
Ah well, Alice. I hope I have not gone over the line here but if I have its OK to delete me. It's just that hate breeds more hate and I get caught up in it when I should just continue to ignore it.
Kripke tried something, something big. it worked a whole lot more times than it didn't. in the end, IMO, it fractured and started to collapse under its own weight, much like he has said from the beginning with big mythology shows. He kept that fracturing at bay for almost all of five years, admittedly at the end it started to collapse and then it ended before a full collapse. I commend him on that.
Starmage2...I agree with your comment, having just watched Lucifer Rising again today (TNT) I realized that the whole demon blood thing was 'cobbed' together confusingly again in Season 5 and while I don't like it and think it was poorly handled, it's done now. I'm not going to spend my time rehashing it. Way to go with your comment.
Bevie...I so hear you...more than you can possibly know. I don't go to TWoP or LJ and barely read anything on SupernaturalTV for there is so much going on as your post states. I understand people like to go on and on with their negativity, I just don't have to read it.
As another commenter here posted (here, here!!!) I'm a consumer, I can 'buy' (watch) what you're selling (making) or not...my choice. I'll get off the SPN train when I've had enough...and you'll not hear from me either about the negativity, I'll simply leave. My choice as it always has been.
Alas, only 7 weeks to go and I'm more than ever excited about the new season to come.
Thank you, Eric Kripke. While 'many' fans didn't like Swan Song, many fans did. We're diverse. You can't please everybody and only a fool tries. Follow your vision, surround yourself with trusted advisors and go forward. Once you've committed to your course of action, stick to it!
After all, as much as we love it, it's just a TV show. Any course of action isn't going to kill someone.
But hey this always happens, and ditto for the "you can't please everyone" Love Supernatural and Eric Kripke.
Thanks for keep writing your posts of Comic- Con everytime I see a new post about season 6 and new scoops, I get really happy and excited :-),
Thanks Alice
So how do you reconcile that with Kripke's comments about Dean having to learn to love Sam enough to be there for him in the finale?
Bevie I'm not trying to be wanky, I'm just honestly curious.
There were some things that I loved about Swan Song (Dean being a force of nature despite not having much of anything to do) but a lot more I hated about it. But I had come around to letting it go and give season 6 a try just because I do love Dean so much and inspite of everything I'm still interested in his story.
But Kripke's comments threw a huge bucket of cold water on the tiny bit of enthusiasm I was starting to feel again. His comments made me realize that he sees the character in a completely different and much more negative way than I do, so what hope is there that Dean will be presented in a fair and positive light. I think Jensen is masterful at making Dean sympathetic despite the writers but there is only so much he can do and that became painfully obvious during the latter part of season 5.
I would venture to suggest that this is precisely why you and Alice are able to say fandom loved the finale - by totally ignoring the many, many fans who didn't and implying they are somehow 'bad fans' when their issues with Swan Song are perfectly valid. I'm just so pleased Kripke has made it clear he is aware of the dissatisfaction even if many people here continue to deny it exists.
It's funny though, I've sent this offer out numerous times and no one has taken me up on it. Not feeling so brave in a one on one environment, huh?
Even as someone who strongly disliked the finale (okay, I hated it so much I can't even think about it without getting a little teary) I know what Kripke was trying to do and how he meant for us to interpret it. I am not 'unable to get it,' I just think it was so poorly done that it felt forcefed to me. Telling me that I was supposed to see what happened as brothers working together and then,together forging an impenetrable bond that saved the world rather than one being forced to retract everything he believed in, apologize profusely, and then bloody a fist with his face in hopes that he'd die rather than have to go on afterward did not view to me as a beautiful culmination of five years worth of story. That's my opinion. I also realize some people have been very vocal and not always couth in their expression of that opinion. That doesn't make their feelings invalid.
Now that you've had your feelings validated by posting this defense of that episode, let me ask you, why does it bother you so much that people didn't like it? Speaking as someone who was very put off by it, hearing that Kripke realized a lot of people didn't like it was the first inkling of hope I had that maybe someone would realize it wasn't perfect. Until then, I was convinced we had nothing to look forward to next season. Now, I have at least at tiny bit of hope that someone might care enough to work on making a show we can all enjoy together. Honestly, until then, and even now, I'm afraid to tune in and just get more of the same. Are you trying to convince me that we definitely will be getting more of the same, because that's what you want? Would you really rather that people just stopped watching because they felt like their concerns were falling on deaf ears? Do you really want a fandom populated only with people who agree with everything you say? Because to me, this sounds more like you cheerleading to make your opinion trump to all others than it does someone who wants to see the show continue to improve and build on the foundation of the Winchester brothers and their relationship.
I also don't think championing a resolution that involved drinking gallons of demon blood and calling it a cool freak thing is doing anyone any favors, not Sam Winchester, not his brother, and not anyone who'd like to see more people watch and appreciate this show. But I guess my opinion doesn't count, because I didn't like that finale which was ~obviously amazing~.
What follows in my post is my personal opinion and should only be taken as such.
I personally very much enjoyed the finale. It resonated with me emotionally, and I welcomed the focus on the importance of family. That being said, I can also understand how some people might not have enjoyed it, for whatever reason they want to cite. Of course you can never please all the people all the time, and if you did, what a boring world that would be.
And I have no problem when someone voices their dislike of X, Y, or Z -- it's their opinion and their right to do so -- provided that it's done in a mature manner. What I do not like are criticisms that are mere vitriolic attacks with no supportive reasons behind them. There's a very big difference between good criticism and hateful criticism. After reading a post or an article or a critique done in a mature way, I will have nothing but respect for the author, even if their opinion differs from mine. But spiteful, angry, disrespectful posts or critiques are just not something I am interested in reading. Oftentimes the anonymity of the internet makes people express themselves in a manner they never would in person, and context can be hard to express in written form.
What I appreciate about this site is there is room for expression of a variety of viewpoints, provided it doesn't devolve into personal attacks or Sam vs. Dean tomfoolery. Everyone is, of course, entitled to their opinion. Let's just be civil about it, shall we?
And do you really believe that Kripke never thought Dean loved Sam until the finale? Give me a break! Picking on one phrase from what he said and blowing it all out of proportion. The love of the brothers from the beginning has been front and centre to the whole series.
So, watch it and bitch or don't watch and bitch. I am beyond letting this negativity get me down. My blood pressure will thank me for refusing to read any more frothing at the mouth posts.
Supernatural is my favourite TV show ever, and I remember "Howdy Doody", so that is a very long time. This show is a special pleasure for me, so if you don't like to read anything praising it, please ignore my posts in future.
I am forever grateful Alice that I found this site with its family of posters who can criticize without the bile and hate that are found on those other nameless sites. Birds of a feather, flock together!
I'd like to praise Bardicvoice and her site and also Gaelicspirit. Those are two other sites that one can visit without blowing fuses.
The thought never even occurred to me until Kripke said it. It just tells me that guy completely lost track of who his characters are in his obsession with getting the big scene of Samifer falling into the hole. I think that speaks to almost all of the problems I had with season 5.
But each to their own.
why you say that? season 4 is one of the best sesons, I mean in ratings
Has anyone noticed that with each season Dean calls Sam "Sammy" more and more? Even at the end. "Sammy I'm here and I'm not leaving you." I'ts a sign of affection and I'm wondering if the writers did it on purpose. Counting the seconds untill Friday the 24th.
The one question I would desperately like to see an honest answer to from TPTB is "what would the ending have been had there NOT been a season six renewal?" I find it hard to believe that my reward as a viewer for five seasons of dedication and support would be that Dean is left as a broken shell of the hero he used to be, and our good-hearted Sam is left to rot in Hell. Surely, this cannot be the reward for the heroes who sacrificed everything in their lives for the greater good. Like someone said, to hell with the world, save the Winchesters!
Sure, our own imaginations and creativity can conjure up scenarios post Swan Song to make things right, but we shouldn't have to. We should not have to "fic to fix". Series finales are meant to bring closure and satisfaction. They are meant to make the ride worthwhile. They are the producer's gift to the audience for sticking with it all these years through thick and thin.
How can Master Kripke, who prides himself on being so in tune with his fandom, truly believe that fans of the series would be happy with a SERIES finale knowing that Dean is left miserable and Sam is left in hell? Of course, this ending works as a SEASON finale in order to keep the story going.
Like I said, I want to know what the "real" ending for the series was supposed to be. And if Kripke's true intention was to bring it to a close with the Winchesters separated, miserable and/or dead, then I feel a bit betrayed as a viewer.
I would also expect Jensen and Jared to appear enthusiastic about next season when they are appearing at a PR event for their product- that's what they're getting paid for after all.
What they think privately is another thing and they're good enough actors to never let that show, even when faced with a room full of fans and critics so
I'll take whatever they say with a huge grain of salt, thankyou.
Sam was supernatural and it was very evident that while he loved Sam beyond reason, he had a very difficult time with that aspect of Sam...which he tried hiding behind his game face and walls.
As for Dean being Micheal. In season 5 episode 4 future Dean said "Your never going to say yes, to Micheal. Because I didn't. Its JUST NOT US."
So really, right there, Kripke through Dean was telling the viewers that no matter what, no matter what pressures Zack tried to force on Dean...Dean wasn't going to say yes. Dean almost crumbled, but he found a reserve of inner stregnth to say no.
Which obviously frustrated the Angels, knowiung they couldn't manipulate Dean into saying yes not manipulating Dean into turning his back on his supernaturally touched brother. A manipulation that went back as far as All Hell Breaks Loose when Azazel whispered in Deans ear that Sam may not have come back fully Sam.
Hopefully Dean figured out that the changes Sam experienced were because of the life altering experiences he lived through and had to adjust his world view accordingly. Although Season 6 spoilers suggest Dean (and the writers) think Sam lives in a vaccuum and that being murdered by an ally and going to Hell adn everything in between doesn't change a person.
opinionated and boisterous lot, can't we? Who would've
thought that a posting of the words and thoughts of
Eric Kripke could cause such a fuss. Ok Alice, I
guess you saw it coming, so here it is, open can of
worms and all.
I'm proud to say I'm one of the fans that loved Swan
Song. Not all the questions got answered, not all the
problems got solved, but guess what... That's how things
work. Not everything can always be wrapped up in a
pretty bow. And if it was handed to us on a silver platter
with all the answers, what fun would that be... We would
all be running around the internet with nothing to talk about.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. That is one of
the things that makes life interesting. But on the same note,
I also believe that opinions can be stated without including
personal attacks just because someone has a different
view of the world, Supernatural or otherwise, than you.
I greatly enjoy the escapism that is provided to me for
an hour a week in the form of two brothers, traveling the
country in a classic car playing classic rock. Saving
people, hunting things. For an hour a week I get to forget
all the crazy bullshit that is real life and focus on a little
supernatural family drama. No one holds a gun full of rock
salt to my head and makes me watch... I watch because
I love the show. And I can't wait to see where it will take
me next. I for one will be on the Supernatural train 'til the
very last stop. And I'm sure I'll see some of you there.
So I guess what I am trying to say is, there are always gonna
be things we like and don't like. So it is all up to each of us.
Watch or don't watch... Seems pretty simple huh? Lets just all
try to play nice.
"Sam was supernatural and it was very evident that while he loved Sam beyond reason, he had a very difficult time with that aspect of Sam...which he tried hiding behind his game face and walls. "
This was actually my favorite thing that came out of comic con. I felt that the show was extremely consistant that Dean hated Sam's powers, whether they were visions or killing demons. At times the fear was very well founded, but at other times it seemed like a knee jerk reaction. I just appreciated having that interpretation confirmed.
Personally I loved it, after I finished watching it (online, it’s not in Australia and I have to wait until the end of October for the dvd, damn it.) I was feeling a little breathless, to me it was incredibly powerful. While probably not my all time favourite episode it was the most devastating (even more so than Abandon All Hope). As far as the writing went sure there were some odd things, but then again I’m not a writer and I have no idea about what they do, constraints etc and as has been said they continuously have to evolve to make things work. Sure I could see how the whole Dean/Michael vs Sam/Lucifer could feel like a let down with all the hype building up to it, but with the renewal they had to make it work and I personally don’t see how that show down could have worked properly anyway.
As for Deans character being demoted, if it wasn’t for him Lucifer would have taken over, as said earlier Sam wouldn’t have been able to take control. I think it was so brave of Dean to go there, not to save Sam, he knew he couldn’t and shouldn’t but to be there for him and help him, even wanting to die with him. That line where Dean says that he won’t let Sam die alone is so moving. Damn, that man can act (so can Jim, Misha and Jared- the acting on this show is one of the reasons I love it so much and leaves me completely puzzled it isn’t pulling in a way bigger audience, but maybe that’s a good thing, anywhoo that’s completely off track).
At the end of the day whether people like it or not it’s a matter of personal opinion, I love it, others hate it. No ones right on opinions. I’m just glad to get another season (hurry up already) and that Sam didn’t rot in hell! And all this bitching and moaning is really very silly, because no matter how much we all love it it’s just a TV show! (well a vastly superior tv show, but I digress).
I quite enjoyed writing this, think I may have to comment more.
P.S- to everyone who has anything to do with the running of this site, keep up the good work, it’s fabulous.
Thank you wholeheartedly for your support of our site, happy that you're enjoying what we do. As a writer for the WFB I am proud that you like this site and that we are reaching Australia, too.
Cheers! Jas
How can this happen with fans of a show that has at its core family, respect, love and standing up for each other? To me this seems a contradiction.
I would like to second what Ardeospina and some others said earlier - everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it should be given in a civil manner. Lively, yet respectful, discussions can be fabulous brain food, and I love to venture into those, but we rarely find them within this thread.
To my mind, discussing this show is not about 'my opinion is better or worthier than yours', everyone loves the show for some reasons that differ, others that are quite similar.
On the other hand - narcissism often has no tolerance for another's opinion, which is saddening altogether, but a part of life. Those people who felt obliged to post personal attacks perhaps should remember that their lack of civility does them no credit.
And, maybe, the anonymity of the www has a huge part in forgetting manners or respect, indeed.
Believing we will find a respectful way of communication again here, Jas
I don't think it's a matter of loving or not loving Swan Song, if it were just another episode or just another season finale. If that were the case, then we could simply compare/contrast it to the other four so far, just as we analyze all the episodes and have very varying opinions about which are our favorites.
The deeper issue here is that there is a very strong possibility that Swan Song would have served as the SERIES finale. And that is where the problem lies. It seems very apparent that the last few seconds of Sam standing there under the flickering light were added on after they got the renewal notice as a way to keep the story going. Not to mention bringing Cas and Bobby back to life (something I'm grateful for going into S6).
Kripke, speaking through Chuck, claimed that "endings are hard" and I have to strongly disagree with this. Sure, they can be a challenge, but it's not that hard to know what your fans desire in terms of an ending that would allow them to say goodbye to the Winchesters in a satisfying, fulfilling manner.
Endings are meant to bring closure and satisfaction. One thing I respected tremendously was that each season answered many questions while setting up new ones for next season; they never dragged out the same questions ad nauseum. And no matter what the cliffhanger was, we knew that the brothers would be back to deal with things that go bump in the night. The best analogy I can offer in regards to endings is going out to the movies. If I'm going to spend $10, then I expect a logical presentation of the story which wraps up its mysteries and allows me to leave the theater feeling as if I didn't waste my money. I don't want to leave the theater thinking "what the hell just happened?" If a movie can give me closure and satisfaction in two hours, then why can't a beloved series do the same?
In defense of Swan Song, I actually thought it was a strong and powerful episode -- up until the last ten or so minutes, that is. I will always be left with the nagging question of whether the series was meant to end this way or not... with Bobby & Cas dead, Sam rotting in hell, and Dean a miserable destroyed ex-hero. Was this the original ending for the '5-yr plan'? God, I seriously hope not! Because what a HUGE disappointment for me if it were.
I for one absolutely loved Swan Song. I think both brothers were equally important. I mean without Dean, Sam wouldn't have had the strength to jump into the pit and without Sam, Lucifer wouldn't have been stopped.
And it doesn't bother me that Michael made Adam his meatsuit because the entire time Team Freewill was fighting for just that. If Dean had said yes, wouldn't that have proved the angels were right all along? I do regret not getting to see Jensen play Michael though, lol.
There are also a lot of complaints about Sam and the demon blood drinking. A lot of people seem to think Kripke's condoning it. However, I don't see it that way. Sam suffered immensely for his choices and he had to fight for his redemption. Everyone does makes bad choices, some worse than others but if you truly repent then you should be forgiven your sins.
Sorry for such a long post! I've lurked on this site for a long time now and no-one to talk to about Supernatural so I have a lot of pent-up feelings, lol!
I just wanted to say that I really enjoy this site. It's the only one that doesn't cause me unhappiness and doesn't make me question my love for this show. So thanks a lot Alice. I and several others appreciate it.
"I HATE using this line, but I swear I had to last year so I'll do so again. If anyone is that mad, if anyone has lost that much hope, it's time for a new show. Let me and the millions of others that actually love Supernatural continue in our bliss."
(From Alice - editing this part of the comment because it's disrespectful. I think we established much further up that poisonous attitudes aren't allowed here. If you wish to discuss this point further (which I highly encourage) take it to the "Contact Us" section.)
Do I have a right to get what I want from the show? No, but I do have a right to say what isn't working for me. That's what 'critical thinkers' do, not just accept that they had good intentions in making bad t.v.
And Estella, I’m with you on that ‘not letting him die alone’ line. That right there is the role Dean, not destiny or the angels, choose to play; the role of big brother. He deemed that role to be more important than angels, demons and the apocalypse. Quintessential Dean. That line, along with Sams‘...and your children will be cursed’ from The Song Remains the Same pretty much define the entire show for me.
Anyway, in relation to Kripkes comments about Dean needing to learn to love Sam, a lot depends on how you define love. Is love about protecting someone, accepting them, trusting them, letting them go or fighting to keep them close? Viewers own definition of love will dictate how they interpret Kripkes statement. Sam and Deans upbringing was skewed therefore their idea of love is equally skewed. In my opinion, for Dean, love means protection. For Sam it means acceptance.
While there is no doubt Dean loved Sam there are numerous times during the series where he didn’t appear to like Sam that much. (Jeez, he disowned Sam at least three times that I can think of). Up until Swan Song, he certainly didn’t accept him. Dean spent his life trying to either protect Sam or fix him; the visions, the demon army, the crossroads, the blood, Ruby, Apocalypse, take your pick. I can't equate that to love. Duty, obligation yeah but not love.
Does Dean love his brother for who he is: vision having, apocalypse starting, demon blood drinking Sam or who he wants him to be: trusting, adoring Sammy. In DSotM Sam wasn’t involved in Deans heaven but Sammy was. In Sex & Violence Deans ideal partner was someone who was as different from his brother as you could get. (There have been many comments posted here and elsewhere about Sams countless wrongs and rejections towards Dean so I feel it’s important to note that wasn’t a one way street.)
A huge amount of criticism is being aimed at the necessity of drinking demon blood but that story line was too important to have been just thrown in at random or as a gross out factor. I’d originally believed the blood was there as a placebo but now I think it’s more of a symbol than anything else. First of all it was a sign of how far Sam had fallen, of what he was reduced to doing in order to survive following the death of his brother. Then it became a symbol of much of himself he was willing to sacrifice to do what he felt was right (self-sacrifice has always been a Winchester family trait). It later became a symbol of the divide that was firmly in place between the two brothers and finally, it became a symbol of Deans growing acceptance of Sam and who he is when Dean helped Sam collect the blood. No way would the Dean of 6 months ago have been able to do that.
I’d love to say a big ‘Thank you’ to Kripke for the characters (and the show) he created. Many of the fervent arguments and hostility aimed at the boys, the finale etc etc stem from the fact that viewers feel so passionate about their guys. Pretty amazing when you consider these guys are a high school dropout with $6 to his name and an ex-demon blood junkie! You did a great job, Kripke, fair play to you.
Finally, Alice (you brave, brave soul!) thanks so much for the continual updates from Comic Con and also for allowing an open forum on such a contentious issue. (We’re 7 (SEVEN!!!) months behind in Ireland so I don’t post online that often. Not much point posting when everything you want to say has already been said.) Anyway, it’s great to get the opportunity to post an opinion (without fear of reprisal or vitriol) on a well-informed and well-balanced site. Cheers!
I like your point of bad choices and redemption - even if it is blood drinking... And, well, some did not like it, but, to me, it was a damn thrilling storyline.
And don't worry about the length of your post. Have you seen some of the others?
Take care, Jas
Thank you for your excellent post!!! While I'm one that struggles with the demon blood in Season 5 after Ruby's reveal in Lucifer Rising I have to say that you've given me a new perspective on it for that, but not that alone, I am very grateful you posted.
While I have criticisms at times of things the show has done I move on after I voice them and just enjoy...or occasionally, very occasionally, block things out altogether (like some of Anna's whining about heaven and God and angels in Heaven and Hell...but that's a brief scene I'll just ignore so no trouble there)
When I have a thrill or a joy over something the show does, I voice it and share the thrill and the joy but like the criticism, I move on. My focus is on loving and enjoying the show.
It's not mindless worship to enjoy something when you've made your mind up based on your own thoughts, it's enjoyment for the sake of enjoyment.
What I love best about this site is that it is a place to voice your opinions on things you do and do not like but it is always, first and foremost, a place to love the show.
Alice, thank you for this site -- and yes, even thank you for 'feeding the gremlins' AGAIN! 8-)
No. Let's be clear about this, Alice: you do not have the power to order anyone out of fandom just because they don't conform to your vision of what the show should be. They do not have the power to order you to leave, and you don't have the power to order them. No one has that power.
(Amelia - I'll repost this here instead of the new thread. Please watch the tone though. If you're that angry, use Contact Us).
First - as I previously stated, I am one of the fans who thought "Swan Song" was great. No need to go into detail about the why of this opinion again, but I did honestly love it.
Second - Having been a member of this site for a long while, I have to address the accusations of censor being flung around - because frankly they upset me. Opinion is one thing and Alice has never discouraged anyone from sharing a well articulated opinion, whether it is one she agrees with or not. This fandom is huge and from all facets of life. We all have different preferences so differences in likes with regard to Supernatural are bound to arise. That said - opinion doesn't mean hateful sermons about the writers/directors/actors/characters, etc. While I did love the finale, it's true there are those who didn't like it at all. I won't speculate on which "side" is largers - the Likes or the Dislikes because frankly I don't know. Those who didn't like it, I don't think that makes you "bad fans" (nor to I think Alice has accused anyone of this) - I think what qualifies as a "bad fan" are those that simply comment to spread the hate. You didn't like the characterization, plot, whatever. That's fine. I even like reading the well-thought out explanations as to why you didn't care for and it and further, I can even agree with some points and/or see things from your side without my opinion on the episode being swayed. That's the beauty of open discussions - I think both sides have valid arguements/views/interepretations. Opinions aren't wrong, but they way they are expressed and certainly when their bearer attempts to eclipse all other opinions - that isn't right.
The WFB community is usually full of ranging opinions expressed tastefully and with respect to others. This site is the only one I choose to visit for reading about Supernatural simply because of the high level of respect amoung the regular posters (and even, for the most part the lurkers). If you read the epiode reviews, character articles, etc. that Alice puts up on the site, both articles she has written and articles that have been written by a multitude of other contributors you'll realize that this site isn't about one uniform opinion on the show or the characters - it's about a place to express that opinion without feeling attacked for having it. You'll see, especially in episode reviews for the same episode that thoughts on the plots have radically differed throughout the course of the show - but nonetheless we continue to be respectful towards one another and toward Alice who has been very gracious in creating and maintaining this site *and* allowing some many different voices to contribute to it.
I have to echo Alice in that if you've truly come to hate the show *that much* then stop watching. Further to that, I have to say that if you have such a problem with the way a site is run, with the nature of the articles, etc. then don't visit - that's why I don't go to the other sites - they don't further my enjoyment of the show or the fandom community. I can't fathom why someone would devote their time and energy to something that (given how much dislike and/or hate the have for it) doesn't improve your life in some small way. I watch Supernatural and other shows because they entertain me, they bring a bright spot to my day. There are other shows that I don't watch - for example, reality TV - because it in no way benefits me to watch. I don't like it, so I don't tune in. It's just that simple.
Alice, forgive me if I've overstepped in responding in this way - but I had to say something!
It seems every summer a few fans get negatively stirred up by comic con reports and it spills even into the WFB which is a Supernatural safe-haven 99% of the time.
I love the show, I love this site and all the great opinions, thoughts and reflections that it has brought together. Please respect that most of us come here for that, not to write/read hateful things.
You're right, Amelia, nobody can order someone to leave a fandom. But I don't believe that was the point Alice was making. As I said in my above post - it doesn't make sense (at least to me) that someone (and no, I'm not identifying anyone in particular but generalizing the more violently angry among the fandom) would continue to watch something they've come to hate so vehemently.
Tim! Enjoyed your comment, thanks for de-lurking, you should do this more often
Of everything that has been said here, what mostly got stuck in my mind is the dilemma whether Dean loved Sam all along, or learned to love him by the finale. It made me remember something: a cousin of mine's son was a drug addict. He did awful things, and his mom wanted to throw him out more than ones. But she never did. Eventually he died. His mom was devastated and to the day speaks of him as of her little boy she loved so much. She never stopped loving him, but hated what he had become, what the drug had made of him. So, this is how I understand Dean's love for Sam - he definitely loved him from the beginning, but hated what he did. This is just a human thing, isn't it? ..... Hm, I love my sister, but more than ones I would have taken a Winchester and shoot her, that little brat
I like what Kripke and many here have said, and that is that the SPN story is (among other things) about learning to accept and forgive. I think that's wonderful! We have been shown characters that react real and deal with issues I, the viewer, can relate to. Isn't a huge part of life to accept and forgive? Over and over again? Take away the supernatural creatures and it's a "life-show". The many negative comments here prove, in my opinion, how connected it is to real life issues. Many different people reacting to the same things differently gives us an overall picture of the human species. Aren't we an adorable bunch? Just be respectful, that shouldn't be so hard. The Winchester boys fight all the times, but isn't it nice to see them make up?
Hm, some might say that I don't need real life issues when I want to relax in front of the tv, and I can relate to that. But to me, I always liked shows/movies more that are more real (not to be confused with, what are they called? ... reality shows? Big Brother and Co, you know? Horrible!!!). Enough rambling, see what an evening off can do to a girl?
Anyway, this has been very interesting to read, thanks people, and Alice in the first place.
Okay, just for the record - I'm a Winchester gal with a soft spot for Bobby
And what is TWop? Oh, don't tell me.
Have a great weekend!
Lara
But it's over and I know we need to move on. And normally, I'd be all excited for the chance to start fresh with a new season. But I have to admit that there were a number of elements concerning Dean's characterization that I found kind of disturbing in S5 that I'm worried will be carried over. One was that, apparently, Dean was responsible for the lion's share of the problems between the brothers. And I guess that if he had only learned to love Sam more early on, Sam wouldnt' have been driven to belittle, betray and physically attack him. Maybe I'm wrong but the fact remains that Sam didn't directly acknowledge any of his actions while Dean was the one to repeatedly apologize (not to mention Kripke's interview.)It makes me suspect that yup, just like Kripke thought Dean was a pussy and deserved Bobby's rant in 4.22, Dean likewise brought all of Sam's behavior onto himself and things were prety much his fault.
Then there were the numerous physical beatdowns, the insults (which have become standard fare for Dean over the years), and the way Dean was wrong, wrong, wrong about almost everything last season. When a character is taken so low, it'd seem logical to then have a moment of vindication. But even in the graveyard scene, Dean was again beaten and insulted: the only difference was that he luckily learned his lesson about the meaning of family/to love Sam this time around. It was heroic but I don't know....if this is really how the writers see Dean-as the fodder for insults and beatdowns, that the character now has such bad judgement on his own that everyone else has to teach him the correct way, that he deserves to apologize and apologize and apologize-I don't know if I can keep watching. I'm willing to give it a try but if nothing changes, I just love his character too much to see him turned into the show's physical and emotional punching bag. Sam and Bobby aren't treated the same way by the writers-all I'd like to see is the same type of respect awarded to Dean as well.
"Further to that, I have to say that if you have such a problem with the way a site is run, with the nature of the articles, etc. then don't visit - that's why I don't go to the other sites - they don't further my enjoyment of the show or the fandom community."
I have posted my grievances with season 5 and the finale, which are to do with characterization, pacing, lack of continuity and abysmal acting. I haven't posted any hateful comments about other fans. However, reading through this thread more thoroughly, I see that many posters who are on here saying how much they enjoyed the finale (including Alice Jester, I might add) are calling those of us who have posted here to say we don’t gremlins and trolls, and accusing us of being poisonous, ranting, narcissistic, spiteful, and vitriolic, and of using twisted arguments. I haven't done that and I don't see anyone else doing it either. I see posts have been deleted but I read those posts yesterday and they were along the same lines as mine and were (quite rightly IMO) calling Alice out for having gone to the other critic's blog.
(MelK - I'm moving the rest of this post to another article that's relevant to the points you made here. I really want to keep all comments here focused on the Eric Kripke discussion.)
"And had Dean not decided to sacrifice himself and go to be with his brother because of the love and relationship between them trumped all. Had he not learned to do that, to forgive his brother and love him over the years of training and learning experience of the show, then he would have never gone out there and Sam would have never seen him, never would have seen the car, and he would have never had the strength to take over his body and save the world."
This is exactly how I took the finale. Season 6 looks great - I love the idea that it's a "sequel" in that the past events are important but that there is a new story to focus on now.
I am looking forward to season six --and not just with the hope that it will get the bitter taste of Swan Song out of my mouth. I am really liking what I've been hearing about the storylines and I also think (from the video, I wasn't fortunate enough to go to ComicCon) that Jared and Jensen are honestly excited about the upcoming season. In fact they seem more positive and upbeat than they have in a long while. I'm kinda hoping that the show follows suit with getting a bit more positive. Its been unrelentingly grim for far too long. That's what I miss the most about season one. Season one was -- hopeful -- Sam & Dean were working out their diferences, they were going to find their Dad and they were killing monsters that deserved to go down and saving people. Season one put the 'win' in Winchester -- I hope that's what the writers bring back this season.
I enjoy discussions that present both sides with fervor because it’s great brain food. No matter what side you're on, there's an overwhelming hope that ALL opinions. negative and positive. can be treated respectfully. It’s easy to tell someone "if you don’t like the show then stop watching" but sadly that is exactly what they will do when they do not like the direction a show is taking. Perfect example is Heroes. Even though there were moments where the creator was condescending to the viewers’ intelligence and the writers were making a mess, the fans stuck with it because that creator acknowledged the errors and promised to fix them. Promises that never materialized until the show crashed and burned in its fourth season, quietly disappearing because no one gave a damn any more. Yes, I watched and tried to be patient, but I wasn’t as invested as I am with Supernatural and just quit. If we are critical of “our” show it is so that it does not risk suffering a similar fate to Heroes.
In terms of Swan Song, I enjoy the analysis and trying to figure out what all the imagery means. After all, this is what we do with all the episodes. But aside from that aspect, I also tend to look at the bigger business picture involved. Ultimately, TV shows are a business. Viewers equal ratings which equal ad dollars which equal a reason for the network to keep the show on the air.
Idealistically we can say “this is Kripke’s freakin’ creation and he has a right to do with it as he pleases.” We can argue about the pros and cons of catering to the fans, which may or may not be taking place, and argue about whether those changes should or should not be occurring. Again, just brain food. The Executive Producer has a vision for his creation, which he can continue to present with no adjustment in response to outside forces, or he can adapt to the environment and continue surviving. Supernatural was in a unique position by being on a smaller network whereby a rather rare relationship developed between Creator and Viewer and the way feedback was handled. Unlike being on FOX where it is make-it-or-break-it in 3 episodes, Supernatural actually had an entire season to impress its audience. The subject matter and format resonated, resulting in cult-like obsessiveness and support. When it came to Kripke, there seemed to be an open discussion between him and fans. He truly listened and cared what we thought. Which is why I’m a bit baffled at his comments relating to Swan Song.
This now brings about an awkward catch-22. If the Creator can understand those elements which resonate with his audience, he knows that catering to those elements will bring about continuing support. But in doing so he compromises on his own vision. So what is more important here… the vision or the support? Let’s not forget, this IS a business after all and no doubt the team would like to keep working. And let’s not kid ourselves and say the creator should stay true to his vision, no matter what. That’s not the reality of being in a business. In evolution, survival of the fittest usually includes some form of adaptation.
With that in mind, for me Swan Song once again boils down to a question of Season vs. Series finale. Absolutely no problem when taken as a season finale -- I didn’t really like the ending but no worries, it will be resolved next season. Just like I didn’t care too much for the S3 finale. As a potential SERIES finale it failed to -- dare I say -- cater to its audience’s desires. I fail to understand how anyone in tune with Supernatural’s fandom (especially Eric) could believe it would be happy with Dean miserable and Sam in hell. The End. Um, really?
Tim the Enchanter had a very thoughtful analysis posted above, but he also said: I would have been happy (but devastated) if the original ending of Sam in hell and Dean in suburbia had stood because... that’s life. There’s not always a happy ending. Life completely blows at times and SPN has never been afraid to address that.
I agree with Tim when it comes to the ongoing nature of a series. Give me all the pain, drama, and angst you can cook up; rip my heart out and make me cry! I love it!! But at some point we immerse ourselves in TV in order to escape from the crap real life throws at us. We would like some reassurance that no matter how dark things seem, the hero CAN win in the end. This wasn’t the message with Swan Song as a series finale. That type of ending would NEVER provide me with satisfaction, to be able to sit back when it’s all over, with a smile on my face, feeling that the ride was most definitely worth it, and eager to pass on my DVDs to new fans. No, it was more like coming to understand how the Prison Break fans felt betrayal at their end, and wanted to mail their DVDs back to the studio.
I just can’t help but feel (as was the case with Yellow Fever too) that if Eric has to come out to defend something, then perhaps there was something lost in translation along the way. I understand his rightfully-earned pride in this outstanding product, but I fail to understand his surprise at the disappointment felt by a great number of fans had this been the series end. It makes me feel like he either lost touch or became indifferent, almost as a “take that” revenge for all the grief fandom has caused him through the years. But I’ll stop now so that it doesn’t seem like I’m beating a dead horse. Thank heavens for season six!
I thought Tim's essay was beautiful too, but I must admit to being a bit amused by the 'there's not always a happy ending -- life (presumably referring to real life)blows sometimes.' Yes, Tim, real life does blow sometimes. It really does. People lose their jobs. People do monstrous things to one another. People die. And people are left to roll with the punches, absolutely.
And yes, Supernatural, within the context of the monsters of the week and the broader mythology, has always done an excellent job at exploring the underlying emotional impact of life throwing those punches at the Winchesters. That emotional resonance, that real everyman relatability between the Winchesters and the audience is one of the things -- maybe THE thing -- that has made Supernatural brilliant, and so much more than just a 'little horror show'.
And back in S1 when John Winchester died - that was as real as anything on any TV show ever, despite the fact that it was a yellow-eyed demon that did it.
Back then I was terrified that EK's ending was to kill off the Winchesters in some blaze of glory 'they saved the world alot' kinda way because it was so emotionally real, despite the ghosts & goblins backdrop, and yes, in real life, bad things happen to good people.
But since then and especially in the episode Swan Song, the show has demonstrated that in the Supernatural universe -- death -- is relative. So now, I'm still afraid that EK's end game might be one or both Winchesters dead and but now instead of sad, I'll simply be angry. Because in a world where death is relative, and Castiel and Bobby are ressurrected *snap*, to me, there's no longer any good dramatic or literary or artistic or whatever you want to call it, reason for the Winchesters ever to have anything other than a 'happy' ending (together, living to fight another day)especially when in the show's meta world the writer is God. (yeah, open to interpretation, I know, I know)So to acknowledge, no, not just acknowledge, to pretty much outright declare, that the writer is God -- I can do whatever I want: defy death and the laws of physics and what have you -- and have the characters end up in such a miserable place felt like a slap in the face to me.
IF that's how the series was going to end. Which is sure what it felt like.
I'm sorry, I'm rambling now. Anyway yes, Alice, I've moved on in the sense that I am looking forward to season six and I still love my show and still think its the best thing on TV, but Swan Song left a very bitter taste in my mouth. Fortunately, since it wasn't the series finale, that bitterness isn't splashing back in the send-my-dvd's-back-to-WB kinda way or forward in a that's-it!-I'm-not-watching-this-stupid-show-anymore! kinda way, but it really was a very near thing. Its not that I didn't 'get' what Kripke was doing -- I just really, truly, deeply didn't like it. To me, it was hurtful -- but mileage varies.
So it's not that Swan Song had elements that I liked or hated, it's what it represents in the bigger business picture. Eric, speaking thru Chuck, seemed to 'get it' that it was all about family, all about the brothers and their bond & love for each other. Then suddenly, bam! screw you, viewer! Your beloved Bobby is dead; your angel is dead; the boys saved the world but the heroes couldn't save themselves. Ha! Take that!
I would still like to ask Eric "what was the intended REAL ending to Supernatural?" His honest answer to this question will play a significant role in my decision to support future products he creates either with open arms or with cautious trepidation.
I think it depends on what expectations you have for a series finale and everybody has different ideas about what a series should be like according to their personality.
Series finales are always a though cookie. You can never do it right for everybody since the exact thing (closure,satisfaction) that is loved by one part of the viewers will be hated by the other part. I always hope that I like the finale of a show since there is always a 50/50 chance that I won't. I either like it or not and then I find the reasons for it but since it's not just a normal episode but the series finale I reflect on the entire duration of the show and think about one question: 'Was it worth watching?' or 'Would I watch the show again after I know what I know after the finale?'
That's what I'm interested in and to be honest my opinion or the opinion of another fan will not be more true because they are in a majority. And one of the most pointless questions for me is 'what was the real intended ending', what does it matter as long as it makes sense and fits the tone of the show. If it did is again up for interpretation but opinions will not change with the knowledge of the 100 % ending Kripke envisioned when he wrote the pilot. Again some people will like it and the others won't.
PS: Saving the world without being able to save yourself can be seen as a heroic sacrifice as well as a big 'screw you viewer'. :mrgreen:
Sam’s destiny was mapped out before he was conceived (vessel). What he was to do with his life was decided for him when he was a kid (hunter). He spent a lifetime being manipulated by both internal and external forces but he didn’t let this lead him. Sam always did what he felt he HAD to do and while his decisions may not have been easy or popular or right, he did it anyway. Most of the time his decisions, while made with the best intentions, were wrong. Apocalyptically wrong. He admitted it himself ‘I was wrong every time’: college, using powers, drinking blood, leaving again and again, Ruby, Lilith etc.
Sam has a list of deaths to his name a mile long and while he may not have killed them outright, they are dead because of him or decisions he made: mother, father, Dean, Jess, Max, Madison, Brady, all those people whose names I can’t remember (because it’s really late at night here and I'm tired) Add to that all those people he couldn’t save and all those who died in the aftermath of the Apocalypse HE started. Sammy boy was worse than Ebola! But this time, this ONE time, Sam made a decision and it ended up (eventually) being the right one. He was redeemed, and marvellously so. Sam said he always felt he didn't fit anywhere but he proved he worthy of being part of the Winchester family.
Sam took his ‘destiny’ and turned his back on it (defying angels and demons by doing so.) He took the only role that heaven and hell deemed him fit for, that of destroyer, and he said ‘No’. Sam spent 5 seasons falling, again and again and again but he never stayed down and at the end, he was able to stand tall (or whatever position he was in when he jumped!)
When you consider WHY Sam was created: to reek death and devastation and compare that to what he ended up doing.... Y'know, Sam finally got to chalk one up in the ‘win column’. That’s what makes me happy. (Nausea inducing spiel over)
This is another reason while the finale worked for me: redemption. I’m a bi-bro girl (though if you were to put John in front of me what I wouldn't fecking DO to him! Oooh Papa Winchester.....) but I, and I may be the only one, think Sams character was woefully underdeveloped this season, as it was last season. Despite this event being the eventual catalyst for the Apocalypse, only about 30 minutes were spent focusing on what Sam went through in the 4 months Dean was in hell. The end result being that many people were more focused on the blood and sex than what led a guy who loathes demons to sleep with one and then drink their blood.
Season 5 was spent kicking the guy while he was down. How many times did Dean say he didn’t trust Sam, how many times did Castiel, Dean, Zachariah etc remind him of what he had done? (When the box set comes out I’ll count but it was a freaking lot.) He never argued with them. He never said ‘It wasn’t just my hand that played a part in starting the Apocalypse’. Sam put his head down, kept faith in his brother, trusted him, supported him, believed in him, kept hoping and earned Deans trust again. That’s redemption. Redemption also makes Tim happy!
The above post was an addendum to a comment I made earlier about why Sam in hell makes me happy (ok, that looks even worse when I see it in print) therefore the post focuses mainly on Sam, his actions and what (I feel) his motivations might be. The lack of comment on Dean does NOT mean I am downplaying the massive role he played in ending the Apocalypse. I am NOT playing the ‘woe is Sam and boo to Dean’ card. I loathe, loathe, LOATHE the Sam v Dean bull that many reasoned discussions deteriorate into. If a thread is started on the part Dean played in the ending of the Apocalypse I will gladly post my rambling 200 cents worth on it.
Apologies for this but I’m covering all bases before there's a voodoo doll out there with my name on it...
As for Swan Song count me in has someone who loved it . I stay away from places like The TWOP because of the blantant Sam hate that goes on there ,but I do like coming here to read well thought out points and debates. :
I don't see where the idea that Dean has done something "wrong" comes from- heck, most of the Dean narrative this past season implied that Dean never does *anything* wrong, up to and including Sam directly saying to Dean, "When push shoves, I know you'll do the right thing." From the first episode, where Dean gives up his necklace to the last, where Dean is there to save the world by getting thru to his brother, Dean always does the right thing.
But I’m going to stand my ground on the Series/Season finale argument. Yes, Sam was redeemed. Yes, the world was saved. Yes, things are left a bit ambiguous to make sure we come back in Sept. It was a great way to end a season! But for a series end? that’s the way we would’ve had to say goodbye to the Winchesters forever?!? Nope, too many loose ends left; too many things in the episode that just fell short of satisfaction. For it to have been a series end, I think it needed another 5-10 minutes for some real closure.
And Cassi, I agree that different viewers have different expectations. But I think we would be hard pressed to argue that the huge majority of fans of this series would not have like to say goodbye forever knowing that their Winchesters were somehow together, a bit worse for wear, but alive to fight another day.
This just makes me smile. While I love a tragic ending, I think Swan Song would have been way too far for even me. One brother dead I could live with. Sam trapped in hell forever...and because he saved the world...I don't think I would have been able to ever watch an episode again.
I watched bits and pieces of Season 1 and 2, and lost track of the series thereafter (limited time to watch any television).
I recently caught bits and pieces of what has been happening to Supernatural. I remember watching a clip of "Swan Song" on Youtube - bits and pieces of the ending.
And I was completely blown away. I had no idea then what the backstory was, or how Supernatural developed from Yellow Eyed Demon in Season 2 to Lucifer in Season 5 - but I was still moved (no doubt in no small part due to the incredible acting of all the actors).
Moved enough to go out and buy all the DVDs for Season 1 - 4 (still waiting on Season 5 DVD), and to stumble on to this site.
So, yeah, after watching most (95% or more) of Season 1 - 4 on DVD, and reviewing again the bits and pieces of "Swan Song", I have to say that I found what I saw of "Swan Song" was an excellent ending for Season 5.
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